no cones = coarser hair?

[K_Angel]

I went cone free about 6 months ago. Up until then, I have always used SLES shampoo and heavy conditioner (with cones) just to get my hair to not be so hopelessly tangled. It used to take me an hour just to get through my hair after a S & C. Then I discovered Nature’s Gate herbal daily shampoo and it didn't even require a conditioner afterward! Never never has that happened before. Lately, though, my hair has been feeling rough and sort of dry after it's air dried. I'm wondering if the lack of cones (as protection for my hair) has anything to do with that? Or do you think it's something else causing it? I'm so frustrated, because for a few months my hair was absolute heaven!

And now I'm not sure what to do? Any help would be greatly appreciated! TIA :flower:

ETA: These are the things I forgot to mention that I've tried:

-SMT and oilings several times, but it seems by the next day when I wake up again it is feeling rough texture again. I wonder if there are other moisture treatments to try?

-All NG conditioners = my hair was actually more tangled and roughed up

-jojoba oil, coconut oil, sweet almond oil, and shea = ugly greasy hair even when using the smallest amounts

-Clarifying = more stripped/rough feeling hair

-Vinegar = very dry hair

-Cold water = no noticeable difference

-Giovanni Direct Leave in Conditioner = best so far. As it's air drying it feels soft and wonderful, but by morning it is the same rough texture. I have reapplied it several times and seem to get the same results. But I think it has helped a little. Just doesn't seem to be doing it all.

[shayly-fyanna]

Not an expert but i would suggest that you buy the nature's gate conditioner and see if that helps. the one that adds the most moisture to your hair.
I loved nature's gate condish until they changed the formula.

[K_Angel]

Oh, I forgot to say that I've tried all of their conditioners and they all made my hair more tangly and very coarse. It was really quite strange considering how well the shampoo worked! But the conditioners were really horrible on my hair. I have no idea why when the ingredients are nearly the same as the shampoo except for the cleansing part. Weird, huh?

[RancheroTheBee]

Have you tried using any different kind of no-cone conditioners?

[CindyLea1]

Just a thought, could you need to clarify? Not sure, but something may be buillding up?

Maybe just an ACV rinse? Try rinseing in cold water?

[K_Angel]

I've tried all the cheap cone free conditioners like Suave and VO5 and such, and they seem to have no change on my hair. I just ordered and received Giovanni Direct leave in conditioner. While my hair is air drying it seems like it's much much softer. I wash at night and by morning my hair is rough again. Very strange. I've even tried some oil in my hair:

Jojoba = even smallest amounts make my hair greasy
coconut oil = my head itches and too greasy
shea = oily greasy

The Giovanni leave in has come the closest to helping...

[K_Angel]

Thank you all for all your wonderful help! LHCers are so cool! :)

I did clarify a few times and that doesn't seem to do anything, and seems to strip my hair more.

I've tested the cold water rinses, didn't really see a change in "texture" of my hair.

Oh and I've used Sweet Almond Oil too, but it just made my hair greasy too. Oils don't seem to really work well in my hair except in an SMT for me.

Vinegar really strips my hair bad.

I've always had very healthy hair, so it seems so strange to be having this weird hair thing going on...

[RancheroTheBee]

Perhaps it's time to switch back to a light 'cone conditioner, but stick with the sulphate shampoo?

[K_Angel]

RancherotheBee: Yeah, I've been wondering that myself. It sort of feels like a trap. The Herbal Poo has no SLS in it, so if I use a cone conditioner it's not going to be clarified out when I wash... and so then I'll have build up.... and I've never had such tangle free hair as with this NG Poo. :sigh:

I wonder how fast the build up would be? And how often I'd have to clarify? Or would it build up right away since the NG Poo is such a "weak" cleanser?

I wonder if there is a difference in cones? As far as not building up so fast? Sort of "cone light." LOL

[Aditi]

If your hair are sooo much dry and rough maybe you need a deep moisture treatment just to replenish back its moisture.

[K_Angel]

Aditi: I have tried SMT and oilings several times, but it seems by the next day when I wake up again it is feeling rough texture again. I wonder if there are other moisture treatments to try?

Maybe going Cone free has left my hair unprotected in some way?

[RancheroTheBee]

RancherotheBee: Yeah, I've been wondering that myself. It sort of feels like a trap. The Herbal Poo has no SLS in it, so if I use a cone conditioner it's not going to be clarified out when I wash... and so then I'll have build up.... and I've never had such tangle free hair as with this NG Poo. :sigh:

I wonder how fast the build up would be? And how often I'd have to clarify? Or would it build up right away since the NG Poo is such a "weak" cleanser?

I wonder if there is a difference in cones? As far as not building up so fast? Sort of "cone light." LOL

Personally, I like either light leave-ins or a conditioner that contains dimethicone, which is water-soluble (it doesn't take a million scubbings to get out). You might want to try a spray-in conditioner, or a conditioner that contains 'cones that's labeled "light moisturizing", "moisturizing for normal hair", etc. Nothing that's for "extremely dry or damaged hair," or anything. Those also usually have protein in them, which may be another problem you're experiencing. I don't remember the link, but if someone would be so kind, Kirin made a diagnositic article on how to determine what your hair needs, and how much.

[Aditi]

Aditi: I have tried SMT and oilings several times, but it seems by the next day when I wake up again it is feeling rough texture again. I wonder if there are other moisture treatments to try?

Maybe going Cone free has left my hair unprotected in some way?
Maybe your hair are much better with cones only. As i have dry hair i know that my hair won't do without cones so i buy Wella Rich moisture shampoo and conditioner which is mild as well as helps in restore back the moisture i lose, that way my hair dont get damage from too much cones. And yes there are several other moisture treatment to try on contact your nearest and trustworthy salon, i am sure they will provide you with necessary info on it.

[RancheroTheBee]

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=44

There we go. Geez.

[K_Angel]

thanks for all the help! :flower:


Aditi: I think you are right, a light cone could be better for me. I was just so worried about being trapped in the cone/clarifying situation.... You mentioned Wella, is this only in India or in the US too? I don't think I know this brand?

Rancherothebee: Thank you for the link. Yeah, at first, I had a lack of protein in my hair and using a NG protein shampoo solved the problem. Then after about a month came the coarse hair texture, and I thought, "oh, it's just protein time again." Boy was I wrong! I fried my hair something awful. Since then, I've been trying all kinds of moisture stuff, and don't seem to be able to get the moisture to stay in my hair.

My hair is just weird! LOL

[Aditi]

Aditi: I think you are right, a light cone could be better for me. I was just so worried about being trapped in the cone/clarifying situation.... You mentioned Wella, is this only in India or in the US too? I don't think I know this brand?

Wella is not only found in India its global product. I am sure you will find it in US or you can search some internet shopping site to find more about it.

[K_Angel]

K Angel scampers off to look up Wella on the web...... :)

[K_Angel]

Atiti: I found this: Wella Biotouch Moisture Shampoo, but they said it had been discontinued. Is that the same thing as what you use?

[WavyGirl]

With the oil maybe you just need a lighter oil and to apply less. I found that I get the best results from oiling with one or two drops on wet hair. (Wash your hands well before combing through or styling!) Sesame seed oil is really light - it works really well for me where many of the others don't.

You might benefit from intermittent cone use. There's no rule that says you have to do one or the other. Sounds like it may have taken this long for your old cone buildup/protection to end. A cone wash once a month might be enough and you could stay cone free the rest of the time. Lots of us wavies chop and change our routines with the seasons - what works in humid weather fails uttery when it's dry.

Another thought - is your room very dry? Maybe a humidifier while you sleep would help?

One last thing - cones have been known to mask the true nature of hair texture. Many people report more curl cone-free. I see you are a 2a and wonder if maybe more of your wave is making itself felt. A lot of wavies and curlies have success with conditioner only washing. As you have the cheap cone-free conditioners already it might be worth trying a couple of CO washes with them to see if it works better. It really does sound like you need more moisture as the clarifying didn't solve the problem.

If you made it to waist on cones then they must work pretty well for you. And in answer to your question there are different types of cones. You might find this article (http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=53479) helpful. ETA: 2nd post has a list of cone solubility in water.

[K_Angel]

WavyGirl: I sort of accidentally came off of cones. When I tried the NG Herbal Daily shampoo and it left my hair tangle free and feeling wonderful, I just naturally stopped using cone conditioner.

COing didn't seem to make my hair happy, but again, perhaps it was for the same reason it's become a bit unhappy lately.

I've had waist length virgin hair for the last 15 years at least and have always had perfectly healthy hair. My hair dresser always was amazed at how healthy it was when I went in for trims and shc clarified it. Apparently, I used a shampoo that took care of the cones I was using?

Now, since I've changed my routine, I've come across this new problem. But as I was reading over my list of ingredients from the NG poo, I realized that the third item on there is SLES. Never noticed that before... so technically, I can use cones and this shampoo should keep off the build up. And actually this is good news, since I was afraid I was going to have to give up the shampoo.

I have tried oiling with just the couple of drops, but for some reason, my hair gets greasy. But you know, I just got a hair order in and one of the things I decided to buy was some sesame seed oil. And since you say it's a much lighter oil, I"m sure going to give it a try!!!! thanks!!! :)

The humidifier is a good suggestion. I tried to humidify the house a bit by boiling water and letting it "fill" up the house with more moisture. I could feel a difference, but not as much as I would have liked.

Thank you for the article, I'm going over there to look at it now! :)

[WavyGirl]

K Angel, I hope something helps. I forgot to mention, but one other thing you could try is filtered water. It might not be your products at all. The water here is awful and since I fitted a cheap shower filter I can use lots of things on my hair that I never could before.

[s_tresses]

Your hair might need something else, protein maybe. When I went off cones and switched to CO my hair felt really good but after a while it felt really wiry. I started doing egg washes in between and my hair loves em.

[K_Angel]

Wavygirl and S Tresses: Those are great suggestions. I have some distilled water on hand.... do you think that would work?

Thanks! :flower:

[WavyGirl]

Yes, I'm sure it would. I know some of our members regularly rinse with distilled water with good results - I just can't get it cheap here which is why I opted for a filter.

ETA: This (http://blackbeautyblackhair86911.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/511) article is a good one on protien and moisture and how to tell which your hair needs.

[teela1978]

I find that my hair is much smoother with cones than without them. If you prefer the smooth hair that you get with cones, then use them. You might not need them often, but a good cone-laden conditioner every once in a while can do wonders.

[K_Angel]

Your ideas are all great! :) I think besides the distilled water, I'm going to look into some light weight cones too. I think it might help.

Thank you all! :blossom:

[Aditi]

Atiti: I found this: Wella Biotouch Moisture Shampoo, but they said it had been discontinued. Is that the same thing as what you use?
Hii i am sorry but it slipped my mind to inform you that Wella products can be only bought from their professional salons. The salon where i am going is a Wella Professional Salon so i buy Wella Biotouch Rich Moisture Shampoo and Conditioner from them. And yes its a bit pricey it costs Rs.320/- in India. I am sure their will be a Wella Salon at your place you just need to find it by visiting their site wella.com.

[K_Angel]

Hii i am sorry but it slipped my mind to inform you that Wella products can be only bought from their professional salons. The salon where i am going is a Wella Professional Salon so i buy Wella Biotouch Rich Moisture Shampoo and Conditioner from them. And yes its a bit pricey it costs Rs.320/- in India. I am sure their will be a Wella Salon at your place you just need to find it by visiting their site wella.com.
Oh ok, I was wondering why I was having a hard time finding it. I will look in my area to see where the closest Wella Salon is to my home. Thank you! :)

[Aditi]

Oh ok, I was wondering why I was having a hard time finding it. I will look in my area to see where the closest Wella Salon is to my home. Thank you! :)
You welcome dear glad i was able to help you. Let me know how it worked on your hair.

[EvaSimone]

I've been cone free for about a year.

Two reasons my hair starts to feel dry or coarse is:
1) too much protein
2) too little moisture

Are your strands breaking and snapping with little to no pressure? That's usually a sign of too much protein. It's very easy to over protein your hair and much harder to over moisturize.

Also is your hair damaged from heat, bleach or rough treatment? Cones can help hide damage to a certain extent. If your hair is badly damaged you might just be feeling your real texture.

I had very damaged front pieces of hair. I ended up chopping near chin length "bangs" in because I couldn't baby the hair enough and it felt terrible like over brushed Barbie hair.

Also one of the first things I noticed is that you don't use conditioner. :nono:
IMO after you shampoo and remove most of your natural oils you need to put back a little bit of the moisture you removed. I really like Giovanni 50:50 conditioner and I also like Loreal Vive nutri gloss conditioning treatment (it's cone free and great for when my hair needs a treat).

Ultimately finding a routine takes time, it took me nearly 12 months of trial and error to find what worked for me. I was a die hard cone head and it turned out that cone free works wonderfully for me, for some people it doesn't. Don't feel bad if you have to go back to cones

[EvaSimone]

Okay I just looked up the ingredients in the shampoo you are using.

Water, Sage, Chamomile, Kusambi Bark, Lavender, Yarrow, Rosemary, Wild Cherry Bark, Thyme, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cocamide DEA, Citric Acid, Methyl, Propylparaben, Chlorophyllin, Fragrance

It has Sodium Laureth Sulfate in it and no visible proteins. Basically it sounds like you are stripping your hair and then not conditioning it.

But of course that's my :twocents:

This might not work for you but one of the best things for my hair is to take and rinse my pony tail with water, condition it with Giovanni 50:50, rinse it out, coat my tail liberally in olive oil and then wrap in saran wrap. Leave it for as long as possible, usually overnight. It's very moisturizing and my hair feels very silky after wards.

[K_Angel]

I've been cone free for about a year.

Two reasons my hair starts to feel dry or coarse is:
1) too much protein
2) too little moisture

Are your strands breaking and snapping with little to no pressure? That's usually a sign of too much protein. It's very easy to over protein your hair and much harder to over moisturize.

Also is your hair damaged from heat, bleach or rough treatment? Cones can help hide damage to a certain extent. If your hair is badly damaged you might just be feeling your real texture.

Also one of the first things I noticed is that you don't use conditioner. :nono:
IMO after you shampoo and remove most of your natural oils you need to put back a little bit of the moisture you removed. I really like Giovanni 50:50 conditioner and I also like Loreal Vive nutri gloss conditioning treatment (it's cone free and great for when my hair needs a treat).

Ultimately finding a routine takes time, it took me nearly 12 months of trial and error to find what worked for me. I was a die hard cone head and it turned out that cone free works wonderfully for me, for some people it doesn't. Don't feel bad if you have to go back to cones

I'm thinking it's the moisture. Because none of the things you described are happening to my hair.

I don't think I have damage :shrug:, because I haven't blowdryed my hair in years, I let it air dry. I've never used bleach or anything like that on it. So, I think it's probably the moisture. But I've been trying really hard to put moisture back in my hair and haven't been able to figure out how to do it. The oils didn't seem to keep the moisture in, because when it was washed out, the hair would be the same as before. Recently, I tried the Giovanni Direct Leave-in and that has done better than all the other things like glycerin and aloe and things. But it only seems to keep the moisture in for 24 hours.

I definitely think I made a mistake by not using some conditioner after a shampoo, but after trying each of the NG conditioners, which my hair absolutely freaked out and hated, I thought maybe no conditioner and just oils would be better. Even the smallest amount of oils though turned me into a grease ball. *sigh*

I've just been feeling so discouraged lately because I feel like I "tried" everything... but I need to be persistent as you say and keep on looking for the combo that my hair likes best. :)

[K_Angel]

Okay I just looked up the ingredients in the shampoo you are using.

Water, Sage, Chamomile, Kusambi Bark, Lavender, Yarrow, Rosemary, Wild Cherry Bark, Thyme, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Cocamide DEA, Citric Acid, Methyl, Propylparaben, Chlorophyllin, Fragrance

It has Sodium Laureth Sulfate in it and no visible proteins. Basically it sounds like you are stripping your hair and then not conditioning it.

But of course that's my :twocents:

This might not work for you but one of the best things for my hair is to take and rinse my pony tail with water, condition it with Giovanni 50:50, rinse it out, coat my tail liberally in olive oil and then wrap in saran wrap. Leave it for as long as possible, usually overnight. It's very moisturizing and my hair feels very silky after wards.
Yeah, the SLS is the only thing that cleans my hair. But I see your point... That's the culprit because I'm doing nothing to nourish my hair after it's been stripped. After quitting cones, I left the SLS to work on my hair not on the cones?

Olive oil doesn't work on my hair, but jojoba or sweet almond do, would that work the same? I've never done an overnight oiling, because it makes my head itch so much...... never thought of doing it on my pony tail and wrapping it up for the night. I love it! I'll bet that would help tons!!!!!

Thank you! I'll try it! :)

[EvaSimone]

If you haven't conditioned for a long time it's going to take some time to build your moisture levels back up. I usually fight a battle with keeping my hair moisturized so I jump on moisturizing my hair as soon as it starts to feel a little dry.

You don't dry oil do you?? That's the kiss of death as far as using oils for moisture goes.

If I was you I would try and do a deep treatment nightly or bi-nightly. Condition, rinse out, oil, and then wrap. Keep doing that until your hair stops feeling bad.


If it makes you feel better SMT's have never worked for me and some conditioners leave my hair feeling terrible very dry and coarse. Aubrey Organics Honeysuckle rose leaves my hair feeling dry and coated so does Giovanni Smooth as silk and Burt's Bees Raspberry and Brasil nut conditioner. I've never been able to really figure out why, I just know that every time I have used them my hair has felt terrible.

Conditioners that work well every time for me are the two I mentioned above and Burt's Bees Green tea and fennel seed conditioner. They leave my hair soft and moisturized.

We have fairly similar hair types so I am just assuming that what works for me might work for you but I don't know. :shrug:

I hope that you keep experimenting and find out what works for you. :flower:

[EvaSimone]

Olive oil doesn't work on my hair, but jojoba or sweet almond do, would that work the same? I've never done an overnight oiling, because it makes my head itch so much...... never thought of doing it on my pony tail and wrapping it up for the night. I love it! I'll bet that would help tons!!!!!

Thank you! I'll try it! :)

I am glad that you like my idea. I don't really like getting my scalp all greasy but I don't mind getting the bulk of my ponytail oily.

Any oil that works for you would be fine. I just like olive oil because it's a heavy oil and therefore holds moisture in for me a bit better. But I think jojoba would be good too.

[K_Angel]

No, never dry oiled... Because I thought you had to have wet hair to use the oil to keep the moisture in?

I think our hair is similar in it's "temperament" as well as the basic description. Because I just got done trying the AO Honeysuckle conditioner because I saw a lot of people here love it. Oh my! My hair hated it! :(

The very top of my head tends to be a bit more oily than the rest of my hair. I wouldn't really call it oily any more, but the rest of my hair is more wavy so it's drier... if that makes sense? :shrug:

I think the deep treatments you suggested are going to work and I feel "excited" again. I was beginning to feel like I was running out of ways to moisturize my hair. But I really think your pony tail idea just might be the thing I need. :)

I do have another question... sorry.... Normally I try after I conditioner to use cold water... but in this case, do I want to use warm rinse water so the cuticle doesn't close up on the oil?

Thanks again for the great suggestions! :flower:

[EvaSimone]

No, never dry oiled... Because I thought you had to have wet hair to use the oil to keep the moisture in?

I think our hair is similar in it's "temperament" as well as the basic description. Because I just got done trying the AO Honeysuckle conditioner because I saw a lot of people here love it. Oh my! My hair hated it! :(

The very top of my head tends to be a bit more oily than the rest of my hair. I wouldn't really call it oily any more, but the rest of my hair is more wavy so it's drier... if that makes sense? :shrug:

I think the deep treatments you suggested are going to work and I feel "excited" again. I was beginning to feel like I was running out of ways to moisturize my hair. But I really think your pony tail idea just might be the thing I need. :)

I do have another question... sorry.... Normally I try after I conditioner to use cold water... but in this case, do I want to use warm rinse water so the cuticle doesn't close up on the oil?

Thanks again for the great suggestions! :flower:

:lol: I feel you about the AO's honeysuckle rose. Everyone on LHC was talking it up so much I was sure that my hair would like it. Instead it was like greasy straw. It smelt nice though.

I usually rinse my hair in warm water just because I like warm showers. I have rinsed it in cool and don't really notice any difference. I guess just try it and see if it affects your results.

Also when I do the pony tale thing I do towel dry my hair a bit before putting the oil in so it's not sopping wet. For some reason if my hair is too wet when I oil it, it seems to feel drier afterwards. I don't really understand why though. Also the conditioner is essential for me. Oil on just plain wet hair doesn't do much for me, but after being conditioned and then heavily oiled it works wonderfully.

Sometimes I don't even use saran wrap and it works fine too. Saran wrap just keeps me from getting my pillows greasy. :p

I really hope that it works for you. I was really struggling with trying to moisturize my hair for awhile and I understand how frustrating it can be.

[K_Angel]

EvaSimone: Ok, I ran out and bought the Giovanni 50 50 conditioner tonight. It was wash night anyway. I haven't done the oil treatment yet because I wanted to make sure my hair/head was ok with the 50/50 first. But wow! As my hair is drying it feels so much softer already! Thanks for the great suggestion!!!!!! :flower:

Next time I'm going to try the pony tail, 50/50 and oil treatment. Yay!!!!! I'm on my way to softer hair again!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheese: