Bleach. Very. Bad. Decision.

[BlackfootHair]

I can never make up my mind on things. But I had decided I was growing out my natural hair color. In the meantime, I wanted to get rid of the black. (again) :rolleyes:

So...
I bleached it.
I put a cap over my bleach infested hair and turned on my blow dryer. It eventually got too hot under the cap, so I pulled it off. Steam came off my head. My hair was toooooo hot to touch. After it cooled down I poured more 40 volume developer over my hair and again with the cap and blow dryer.

Washed it out...looked in the mirror.

White and yellow roots. Orange to orange red hair. A few streaks of black where I missed. After it dried...oh my...CAN we say PUMPKIN? MY HAIR IS JUST LIKE THIS COLOR. NO JOKE. SOME AREAS ARE SLIGHTLY DARKER. AND SOME ARE TONED DOWN TO THIS SHADE.
I washed and conditioned my hair...and put in a semi color...dark golden brown by Ion Color Brilliance. It has jojoba, aloe, and a ton of other good-for-your-hair-stuff. It toned the yellow and white down to a dirty blonde color. The orange was still orange.

This morning I did another semi permananent. Darkest brown. More toned down hair...but the orange is still very orange. :shrug:

I noticed last night I have a lot of breakage. I really wanted to cry but didn't. I've thought about what I'm going to do.

Tommorrow I have the day off. I'm going to wet my hair down, and do an egg treatment. My hair needs PROTEIN. I think I'll mix two eggs in a bunch of Dabur Vatika oil, and apply it to my hair. I'll prbably mix in some glycerine as well. Should I apply this to wet or dry hair? Probably wet, huh?

Tonight I bought some Revlon ColorSilk permanent hair color in a dark brown. #30. I hope it doesn't go black, but I didn't want to go lighter because it might not cover the roots evenly. Tomorrow after my deep treatment with eggs, I'll try the ColorSilk.

I should trim my hair up probably a good three inches just to get three inches of damaged hair off my head. But before I CUT I'm going to try nursing it back to health. I wouldn't mind all the broken off hairs as long as it can be made back to stronger hair that doesn't feel like wet mushy dog when wet, and slightly crunchy when dry. It's actually a lot better than one could hope for. I'm lucky I still have any hair on my head at all.

I don't know when I'll learn my lesson to leave my hair well alone. At least in the summer I get about an inch a month. After all my special care tomorrow I'll see about dusting the little hairs. At least I can try to make the broken off hairs more like "new" hairs...that is, hairs that are short because they are new. If I rebuild the hair and cut off the damaged ends before they split/split worse, then I should be able to call my hair salvaged...and not junked.

Oh woah is me!

[jessie58]

Yikes Blackfoothair, that sounds scary, I admit I laughed when you typed out in orange and said it was that color. That is SO NOT funny though.

I hope it turns out well. Dare I ask for you to post a picture?
Please don't get any more urges to change colors for a very long time. After you have babied this freshly bleached and dyed hair back to health, try new hairtoys instead.

[cosmogonic]

I think you mean woe is you. ;)

On the condition front, I recommend picking up an actual commercial protein treatment. In the recent past I bleached my hair to paper white in several stages over the course of a week and the condition stayed perfectly acceptable to me due to using a protein conditioning pack between each bleaching. (Namely kerapHixx from Sally Beauty Supply, but anything that says "protein treatment" on the bottle will be fine.)

[manderly]

Yikes. What the heck are you doing using bleach!?!?

I know it's a little late for this, but you didn't use Colorfix or Oops?

It's ok, I'm sure you can do some heavy duty protein and condish treatments and baby your hair back to life. Have you tried aphogee since your hair likes protein? It can really help fill in the damaged bits on your hair shaft.

Well, I was one that said I liked your natural color best, so I'm glad you went for it. I'm sorry you had the pumpkin color (been there, done that, NOT a pretty sight, so I feel for you), but I'm sure you can get past that.

Try using ash-toned browns to tone down the orange cast.

[peachy.pudding]

Yes the colour orange will fade, so dont worry, with black you have to pre lighten it and thats what stage you are at now. You can now put a nice light brown on your hair and it will take well. Dont worry at least the black has gone.

[Katze]

I'm sorry to hear that - but what were you thinking?!?

Didn't you dye black (again) and feel like that was "right" for you?

I'm not being mean, but remember all too well my own "experiments" in this direction - and how my hair would never grow long. The breakage and bad texture you describe make me shudder, because I can still see the several inches of home bleached hair that hang differently from the rest. Blonde is just not for me, at least when it's so much lighter than my natural color - I'd rather have long hair than white hair.

Maybe you've learned your lesson? :) At least you can console yourself that hair grows. If you really want your natural color, you can grow that out, too.

good luck and hope you're feeling better!

Katze

[Sarahmoon]

Blackfoothair, I wish you lots of good luck with getting your hair healthy again. Fortunately you know a lot about hair yourself and you have the other LHC members for advice.

Please copy your original post and save it, or make a picture of yourself now and hang it on the wall, to remind yourself never use bleach again.

[BlackfootHair]

It's kind of funny...I went in the bathroom this morning and kind of liked the color. Maybe I was just too tired to think straight yesterday...The dark blonde roots seem to blend in with the orange red color now...maybe the henna left in my hair is oxidizing again after the bleach and semi permanent color? But I kind of like it! MMM...I'll probably still color it with the dark brown I bought yesterday since I have chunks of black still on my head. I'll take pictures later when I get recharged batteries in my camera. It doesn't seem as bad today. It's still very very vibrant mind you... I just see it differently. Even my boyfriend said it looks like it did when I was doing my henna. hmm...bad bad me. No more bleach!! I could use the rest of it to clean stains off the counter tops and floors. There is a spaghetti sauce stain on the kitchen floor from a previous tenant....I bet the bleach would take it out! hahhaha :)

[lora410]

I started cringing when you said bleach, blowdryer, and extremly hot hair. I hope your hair recovers well. I am just naturally lightening my black dyed hair with honey and baby shampoo. :flower:

[Kittee]

Uhm...Yikes?

I remember your posts from last year agonizing about going back to black, then you did, and you were happy.

Now you post this? =(

I hope you are able to recover from this ok, and I am glad you like the look more so this morning. I really feel for you. I just got rid of the last bit of bleach dmg on my ends so I know how rough it's going to be for you in the up coming months especially with how hot you say your hair got.

Next time, try to exercise the 2 week rule and remember beauty comes from within your heart not on top of your head.

[Shanarana]

I went through something like this a very long time ago when I wanted to go blond, and could not get the color right that I ended up striping it, bleaching it, and coloring two times all within an afternoon. Needless to say I ended up with a blah brown, and I remember all to well that "hot" feeling on my head. I cringe just typing this.

Hope all goes well with your hair and moisture the crap out of it!!!

[wintersun99]

...............

[kimki]

I'm glad its not as bad as you first thought. Like everyone says, just look after it and dont beat your self up. So many of us have done it, including me. Black, purple, bleach, straightners. All of it. :)

[Delilah]

This is what the 2-week rule is for.

You will recover from this but give your poor hair a break. Most of us have 'been there-done that' and for some of us the damage we did to our hair is what spurred us into our interest in haircare.

Even multiple conditioning treatments might not be great for it right now, you still have to wash them out and it can cause physical damage to your hair when it is in such a state.

If it were my hair (which of course it isn't) I would probably do a nice long deep treatment, wash it out gently, oil my hair while wet and put it up in a bun for a week. Let it get good and coated in your natural sebum. It sounds gross, but it is the ideal conditioner and treatment for your hair, after all that's what it's made for.

[Kirin]

STOP STOP!!!

EEEE! Before you use any other color on your hair, a boxed color in a shade you think will work most likely will NOT help the orange. You *must* use a color that has "ash" in the color name and a base of ash (cool colors bases green/violet/blue) or it will be like you did precious little to it.

At this point you should try a toner, not a boxed color to add color to tone down the orange.

[emeraldjoy]

Wow that is an amazing hair story. Sometimes I get tired of my hair as I am growing. It never seems to change dramatically. I find myself longing for the dramatic change short hair cuts or new color brings. Next time I wander into the boxes of color I will think of you and look for hair toys instead.

Best wishes on nursing your hair back to health.:)

[AutumnLeaves]

You will get no censure from me whatsoever, Blackfoot Hair. It is the nature of many of us mere mortals to want to change our hair for whatever reason. Of course, being the LHC, we all hope for long hair, but even so, you know so many of us here do ultimately cut (me to remove dye so the silvers can come in naturally).

Sometimes changing the color gives us an instant lift in that we feel pretty good about the way we look (in my case, I would have added, "for a change!" LOL). I have also done the bleaching out of old color and putting on a new and ended up with your same results. Then I colored a darker red over the pumpkin/squash orange/gold mess I got, which did even out all the colors...but was still frightftully garish. I waited one day...put a darker red on it and it was still too light. Ultimately, I put a dark brown over it all (one more day later) to get back to a normal color. I fretted the damage myself because bleach is so hard on your hair. So I had bleach, red dye at the salon. Darker red dye at home. Darker than that red dye at home the next day. And finally a dark brown the day after that. My hair was squealing in agony.

So...I learned a lesson. No more bleach on my hair. And I cut it down to minimize the looks of damage. Unfortunately some of us learn the hard way what to and not to do with our hair. Whatever you end up with, I hope you will have learned from it and decided on a new way to go with gaining a change without crying hair! LOLOL

I'm not laughing at you but with you as I totally have been there!!!

[Wavelength]

BlackfootHair, please repeat after me...

"I WILL CHOOSE A COLOUR AND STICK WITH IT!"

Don't worry, someday you will laugh at this. Honest. ;)

I'm sending a Get Well Soon card to your hair :blossom: and a big :grouphug: to you. Wishing your hair a speedy recovery!

[Isilme]

I'm with the others, let your hair rest and think about the colour you want. If I were you I would grow out my natural haircolour and use wash in wash out dyes without peroxide or ammonia to satisfy the need for a change now and then. Don't put anymore peroxide or bleach on your hair, please. I think in your hair's state, even some sort of toner or wash in wash out dye could be permanent if you let it sit for a bit longer, but strand test with shedded hair before you do anything!
But since you seem to need a change now and then, I really think it would be a good idea to let your natural haircolour grow out and use the harmless dyes when you feel a bit daring:)

[ReadingRenee]

oh Im sorry Blackfoot hair! I have so been there and done that! Shortly before I found LHC I was in the process of growing out my hair and got tired of my red and wanted to go blonde! I went to a professional who bleached it THREE times in a row to get most of the red out. Then over the course of a month, I dyed it box blonde at LEAST 3 or 4 times. Yeah, my hair was destroyed. But the color blonde was perfect! :D I hadn't found these boards and I washed it everyday with the harshest shampoo. My hair was like plastic on a good day.

Then I finally did a demi permament lowlight and then a full head of medium brown to help it so the blonde wouldn't shine through and just make it look like I soaked my hair in motor oil. (thats always been my experience dying brown over blonde) At first my hair was darker than my natural color but eventually the color faded and the blond shining through combined with the brown looked just like my natural color. I never touched dye again and the colors blended really well into my own natural hair and I kept trimming and trimming gradually and eventually all my hair was back to its natural virgin self. That took about a year and a half.

Anyway, Ive been there and I feel for you. At least you are a member here and know what to do to nurse your hair back to health. Post pics if and when you can! :)

[MeMyselfandI]

Blackfoothair,

I wish you the best taking care of your hair. Yes, I agree bleaching/lightening is a problem. I have been seeing broken hair around me for a while now.

NOTE OF CAUTION:

40Volume Hydrogen Peroxid: Is not meant to be used near the scalp at all. (I think that is what is called an off scalp procedure. I think that is when they use the caps and pull hair out. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.)

[Sian100]

40Volume Hydrogen Peroxid: Is not meant to be used near the scalp at all. (I think that is what is called an off scalp procedure. I think that is when they use the caps and pull hair out. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.)

It can be used both on the scalp and in highlights. Usually it would be mixed with blue powder bleach though for bleaching procedures, or with a hair tint for other hair colouring procedures.

ETA: BlackfootHair, what colour were you intending for your hair to turn?

Also, you can't just put the brown back in with tint- you've bleached all of the red pigment out of your hair, and that needs to be put back into too. This is why you often see a green tinge to bleached hair where someone has just put a brown tint over it- the red's not present to cancel out the green.

[*BelievingAgain]

Awwwww, you poor thing, I totally feel for you...I've just had all my hair cut off to get rid of the bulk of black dye in it, so that I can grow my natural colour out. I've spent the last 2-3 years trying to stop with the black dye, but always ended up going back to it, beacuse it's impossible to change/lighten without doing a lot of damage, once you've got a lot of build-up of dye in there. And to think of the length I could have achieved if I'd left it alone lol!!
We all make mistakes, and then sometimes make more of them trying to fix the original mistake, but at least you have the support of people here - if knowledge and support can't fix a problem, then nothing can!!!
Just be as kind to your hair as possible...someone mentioned oiling your hair then bunning it and leaving that way for a week or more...this sounds like an excellent idea, just leave it be as much as possible. Hair can actually put up with quite a lot, so just baby it and try not to worry, that will only make things worse. I think something else you could do when your mind starts whirling and you think you need to go back to colouring your hair, is to come onto the boards and post about it. You'll be amazed how much clearer and better things will be once you've talked/typed it over with some others who have 'been there, done that'.
Ok Jess will stop prattling now...Just wanted you to know that you're absolutely not alone, and in the scheme of things, everything is totally fine. Sending you and your hair lots of hugs :grouphug:
Jess:flower:

[Alaskanheart]

oh Im sorry Blackfoot hair! I have so been there and done that! Shortly before I found LHC I was in the process of growing out my hair and got tired of my red and wanted to go blonde! I went to a professional who bleached it THREE times in a row to get most of the red out. Then over the course of a month, I dyed it box blonde at LEAST 3 or 4 times. Yeah, my hair was destroyed. But the color blonde was perfect! :D I hadn't found these boards and I washed it everyday with the harshest shampoo. My hair was like plastic on a good day.


Wow !I was just going to post my experience with bleach and red hair that destroyed my hair about 2 years ago. Your whole story is almost exactly the same as mine.So Funny!

Blackfoot, I hope your hair recovers fast and you can get back to enjoying it.I remember not that long ago I saw a thread where you announced that you were going back to black with indigo.I changed my hair so often that I couldnt even get it to my shoulders without it practically breaking off.I quit cold turkey last July and I am doing great. I wish you luck!

[sapphire-o]

Wow I didn't know dying hair and pulling dye out can be so complicated! I thought playing with your hair's color is easy and that's why everyone's doing it. I guess that might be why most people have rather short hair. :)

Hope your get your natural color back OK. I personally think brown hair is amazing. They can look all sorts of different shades under different lights.

[MissHair]

Ive made the same mistake more than 3 times and I always end up regretting it. Its a shame I never learn either but thanks to your post Ive been more than motivated to stay away from the bleach, for good. I have naturally black/very dark brown hair and putting bleach on such fine hair is like comitting murder on your hair, sadly as much as I want highlights and blonde hair like everyone else, its a lesson to be learned that we just need to accept ourselves as we are.

[maskedrose]

Yikes!! Like everyone else said, I guess just baby it and hope for the best...and maybe learn to love your natural color?

[1953Diygal]

I wish I had better news, but I am still experiencing splits and white dots a year later after a high-lift dyeing fiasco. Like I said, that's after one year and about a zillion trims.

[AshleyP]

LOL.

Sorry, but you sound just like me.
I did this in January. Oopsie. Hah.

The nasty color I ended up with:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/tearsfallen/100_8372.jpg

To fix it.. I FIRST colored it red... really red. You MUST use red because bleach strips ALL red out of your hair and if you immedietly cover over with brown, it WILL result in green. (I know that from past experience, I just couldn't learn the first time... doh!)
THEN, I covered it with Clairol Medium Golden Brown and got this color
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/tearsfallen/000_0284.jpg

Friggen PERFECT (I love it hah).

Just keep in mind EVERYTIME you get that urge - what you went through now.

[Blueglass]

Well Ashley I liked the blonde color, but in general blackfoot hair, there are 3 kinds of change.
Change for the better, change which is simply different, and change for the worse. Lots of chemicals are often change for for worse. Especially, if were not quite sure how to do it. Ask yourself is the thrill worse it? Especially if you want long hair? Think about people who have lnog healthy hair. Often it's virgin, or henna, indigo other herbs. Sometimes it's like Jane Seymore, then it's goldwell (most cost a bundle) or some professional highlights like Justgreen, or if you do it yourself be very carefull and follow instructions.

[dagonlilly]

ok first stop dying it this is just adding damage. the best thing to do is to go to a salon and ask for a toner to neutralize the orange. Applying any thing permanent will make the hair more orange, this is because the hair will oxidize

[BlackfootHair]

I kept comming on here yesterday but I kept getting error messages...

Yesterday I mixed one egg with a lot of Dabur Vatika oil and put it over wet hair. Threw on a plastic garbage sack, and sat for an hour. Washed it out in slightly warm water using Vo% conditioner to first detangle it, and then shampoo to get the egg out. Then I slathered on conditioner. Rinsed and let that dry...and then proceded to go Brunette. The color turned out okay, I still have small areas where I missed (even though I used three boxes!!!) My hair still looks like crap. I think for the next few days I'll be using Vo5 to wash my hair and then using a deep conditioner like the K-pak reconstructor treatment knock-off I bought from Sally's. It smells like bananas. :) mmmmm

My hair looks like a dyed fried mess....I'm probably going to have to cut it. But I'm putting the two week rule in effect for now. Even if I get it cut short there will still be damage that will still probably look like poop, but at least if I wait, I can make sure if I do end up cutting it will have been a good decision as my efforts had failed to try to nurse it back to health. If I do end up cutting, I'll have it cut either just above shoulders or slightly shorter with layers. That way the bottom length will still be longer and the damage on the length will be cut out as the layers will take care of that. I would rather trim it short if I do trim at all...rather than do small trims each month. Then I'll feel like I'm stalling at the same length forever. In the weeks to come I'm sure I'll do even more egg treatments...tons of Vatika oil for sure!

I feel so yucky now...I know my hair doesn't look pretty at all. I painted my toes last night to compensate. haha... I did take pictures yesterday, before the egg treatment, after, and then after coloring. I'll upload them soon.

[Arashi]

At least you stopped where you did!

I went through a similar thing not too long ago.. except my experience was that I had hip length, dyed black hair(which I was perfectly happy with!), but ended up being pretty much forced into a situation where I needed to bleach it. It turned out Bozo the Clown Orange! :mad: Though, stubborn as I am, I was determined to get to blonde.. ended up bleaching it no less than 7 times ( :blueeek: ) and completely killed my hair. Then, it was a hard road to get it to an acceptable naturalish looking brown color. In the end, I had to chop off to my shoulder blades.

All I want is my natural, light mousy brown color now. :o

[spidermom]

I can hardly believe you did this!

[wintersun99]

...........

[BlackfootHair]

I thought about henna glosses, but then realized when my natural color is growing out I'll get sick of the red and want to dye it again...like I did before... I took a crap load of pictures, but I'll post just some...later I'll post them all in my journal.

Before egg treatment with two sessions of semi permant dye to tone the yellow and orange.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes006.jpg
(It wasn't that color really...much lighter...)
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes007.jpg
(can you tell how light the front is?
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes009.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes011.jpg
I did say orange...
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes012.jpg
YUCK.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes013.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes015.jpg
I missed a spot!
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes018.jpg
mmm...damage!
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes019.jpg
YaY frizz!

[BlackfootHair]

More yuckyness::
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes022.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes023.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes059.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes060.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes062.jpg


EGG treatment:
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes078.jpg

After...wet.
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes079.jpg

Seriously, not my best look...
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes083.jpg

Blackfoothair has blonde roots!
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes084.jpg

After egg treatment...dry..yucky frizz...damage sucks!
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes087.jpg

[BlackfootHair]

Brace yourself...here is my brown hair...ugg....


are you sitting in a chair? Sit...please...okay, here goes.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes092.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes093.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes094.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes095.jpg
http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m195/blackfoot_hair/hair%20woes/hairwoes097.jpg

I look like a hair idiot. my hair is fried, dyed and multicolored. Dark brown, medium brown...orange. Frizzy. It just hangs there, doing nothing. Good thing I'm broke right now...I'd be getting it cut.

[Sian100]

Did you read any of the advice you received, or do you not want to take in any advice? (which is what people assume you are asking for if you start a thread)

[spidermom]

I'm with you. I'd be getting it cut, too. O.k. BFH - natural from now on - o.k? Or maybe temporary color if you need a change. Since you keep changing your mind, avoid the permanent stuff; that takes committment.

[MoonCreature]

Okey, seriously just stop! Don't put anything in your hair anymore, if you are getting it cut anyway, go to a specialist and ask what they can do. If they think the best thing is to chop it of, then ok. But there may still be something they can do to save it. As long as you don't continue experimenting.:shrug:

[Blueglass]

Blackfoot if I were your hairdresser, I would suggest cutting to chin in the front, and going up somewhat shorter in the back. Your ends are really fryed, but actually, your hair does not look as bad as I feared. I think you need a competent stylist to get you out of this mess. Also, psychologically, why are you taking everything out on your hair? This seems to be a pattern with you.

[Isilme]

I kinda liked the orange colour:) And it doesn't look as bad as I though when you wrote about it.

[Nightshade]

Did you read any of the advice you received, or do you not want to take in any advice? (which is what people assume you are asking for if you start a thread)

I came in here, still shaking my head from SippyCup's thread to say something like this, so thanks Sian, for saying it for me.

BFH you've been all over the board with what you want, and while I respect your personal autonomy, it does a discredit to the people who constantly offer you advice, only to have it ignored on a whim.

Perhaps setting a long-term goal about no altering your color for a year would be helpful? :shrug:

[Naluin]

Oy, been there with bleach damage. It's how I ultimately ended up here. :)

Mushy, crispy hair is so hard to deal with and it breaks off if you so much as look at it funny. That's what my hair did, anyway.

It could be worth going to a salon for a color correction and a good cut that removes most of the damage.

I wish you good luck and lots of patience. :blossom:

[amaiaisabella]

I know I'm new, but could I suggest whether you do or don't decide to cut it, to maybe keep it up in a bun during the day so it doesn't expose itself any more to the elements? Use whatever treatment you like, and then just put it up and forget about it.

I know I'm a color addict, and I've been doing boxed color for about 6 years now. You keep wanting to add a little something, or just get the happy feeling from coloring your hair. I've found that using new oiling treatments or conditioning creams and pretending I am using color gives me the same happy feeling.

I'm very sorry your hair is fried and I know it took me a very long time to get back to some semblance of normalcy for my hair.

[Sian100]

BFH you've been all over the board with what you want, and while I respect your personal autonomy, it does a discredit to the people who constantly offer you advice, only to have it ignored on a whim.

Perhaps setting a long-term goal about no altering your color for a year would be helpful? :shrug:

I would also add perhaps write things in a blog instead if you don't really need advice?

[manderly]

BFH, I really just can't understand what happened......

I took a cue from YOU and used Sally's Ion color on my own hair, after you researched it and had such a nice result with it with no/minimal damage.

I'm so confused as to what has transpired from then to now, where you would do a full-assault on your hair with BLEACH.

It's cooked girl. Do over. Stop using boxes of color from the drugstore, they're full of ammonia and peroxide AND YOU KNOW IT ALREADY because you researched it.

If I were you I'd do some serious SMTs and lots of conditioned bunnings and just try to IGNORE your hair for a bit. Let time heal all wounds.

However, as others have mentioned, I'm really getting tired of talking to to myself on this board.

[Pegasus Marsters]

Ok... lets establish something. If you bleach your hair it WILL cause damage. No might, no could, it WILL.

We all know this.

So seriously... why bleach your hair then start whining that it's damaged? Either do the deed and deal with the damage or don't do it atall. But don't do it then come and whine about the damage that you KNEW was going to happen. It's just dumb. I see people do it all the time and it's boring. If the damage is that bad then suck it up and cut your hair. I did it, you can too.

And honestly... the orange was awesome. People here work thier asses off to get that colour using henna!

[Nat242]

Thank you Sian, Nightshade, and Manderly, for saying exactly what I was thinking, and should have posted.

Blackfoot, I'm sorry that you're upset with your hair, and I'm sorry it's so damaged, but really, what did you expect would happen?

-- Natalie

[getoffmyskittle]

Um, why is everyone slamming BFH when she quite clearly said that she was trying to come here but kept getting error messages? I don't think this is a case of not listening, it's a case of desperation + not being able to view the responses on the thread.

Now, to actually respond to the thread: BFH, I think you need to figure out what it is you want. :shrug: I know that's easier said than done, but if you want long, healthy hair, your best bet may be to go all natural. If you want black hair, know that it will not be obtained without trouble and BE SURE because, as you have now found out, black is very difficult to remove.

It may be easiest for you to cut off the worst of the damage and dye the rest to your natural color. You'll have to maintain for probably a year or more if you want to grow out ALL this damage before continuing on, but don't worry - it does grow.

And I think we all need to keep in mind that it is in fact JUST HAIR.

[jupiterjuniper]

I had the same problem. I used to seriously overdo it on the dye http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4445/thaworsttx3.jpg
Boy times were rough. But a few trims later, and a whole bunch of henna and patience, my poor head recovered.

I wish you much luck. Just bun it up for as long as you can stand it.

[DolphinPrincess]

Oh man, this vaguely reminds me of my senior year of high school, my hair was bleached to a frizzy pale yellow mess! But its hair, and will grow.

[tiny_teesha]

I had this stage at the end of year 12. I thought i was young and now was the time to experiment. I also lost my "identity" -beautiful long hair. So now i realise i love natural after all. It looked best, it felt best, its easier to maintain. I just enjoyed the changes and compliments, after a while i stopped recieving the compliments because my hair was so trashed. You really need to decide what you think looks best on you, i remember you saying black- but if you enjoy regular changed hair colours there are more natural ways to do so.
I say perhaps you can grow out your natural colour and honey the canopy so that it gets really light, then that will show up any colour you rinse with (hibiscus turns your hair red temporarily for example) and you can even use safe temporary dyes too.
It is just an idea. I have promised to never use hair dye or at least less then 90% hair dye ( in the future once i grow ou tmost of my henna i'm going to bleach a small tiny stripe so i can play around with changeing the colour of that all the time and even get some extensions, just one chunk again so i can still have a different look, but also healthy hair!)
:) Just my 2 cents. I rememeber you saying how much black made you feel your best and happy and was really you, now you change it :(. I would never put bleach on my hair!!!... well not after the last time i dyed my hair with it and it turned it orange and killed it. :)

[Sari]

Hi Blackfoothair.

I hope that you are feeling at least a little better. I am really glad that you posted pictures because from your description, I had feared the worst. But your hair looks pretty good for what it has been through. I know this must not be any consolation as damage often feels worse than it looks. But you know you can grow hair back and since you have a pretty good growth rate, you will have good hair in a few months. And your hair is nice and thick so imagine growing a new head of hair that will great. Please don't feel discouraged as we all make all kinds of mistakes.

[sapphire-o]

You know, I really don't understand anything about coloring. It's just your pictures with either the red the orange or the mixed colors really don't look that bad to me. I see people walking around with hair like that all the time. They can't all be bleach accidents. I'm sure some of them actually paid good money to get those colors. :)

I remember you like Indian hair care, right? Why not try some Indian herbs to blend the colors a bit? I was using amla, brahmi and tulsi together in my hair wash and they turned my hair rather brown for a while, even my fingernails got stained. And I wasn't trying to get any colors. Check out Nightshade's herbal coloring article and get some ideas. I'm sure natural ways are gentler. Oh, and my DH used CV cafe moreno shampoo bar a few times and his hair turned rather brown, too. Good luck!

[LisaJaney]

Well, I never know what you're going to do next, BFH, that's for sure. If I read your first post right (and then your second one from the next day), you bleached your already-colored hair and applied HEAT to that chemical process :no: Then you colored again that same day (that would be three colortreatments on the length, so far) and again the next morning. Now, in the second post, you're talking of coloring again. That'll be four colorings in 48 hours on hair that was already colored, making five-times-processed long hair.

I think the hair and its color are the least of what should be tackled. There's something (and I'm talking about other threads you've had over the last year or two) that makes you unhappy with the way things are at any given point in your life (be it relationally or physical-appreance-wise), and this lingering restless unhappiness makes you do things that can be self-destructive (you knew this would fry your hair; you've done the research) in order to try to escape where you are at this moment, and I think that this latest hair-frying has to do with the INSIDE and your emotions, way more than the outside and the color of the hair. The hair is peripheral. It can be colored twenty more times, to the point that it just disintegrates and falls out of the follicle. But what will be the next peripheral thing that can be changed in order to make it seem like we're happy for a fleeting moment and temporarily escape whatever's REALLY bugging us? Fix the ROOT of the problem, and the other stuff will fall into line.

[spidermom]

LisaJaney, that was so sensible that it plumb escaped me. BFH, I hope you're paying attention. NOW I understand.

[manderly]

Well, I never know what you're going to do next, BFH, that's for sure. If I read your first post right (and then your second one from the next day), you bleached your already-colored hair and applied HEAT to that chemical process :no: Then you colored again that same day (that would be three colortreatments on the length, so far) and again the next morning. Now, in the second post, you're talking of coloring again. That'll be four colorings in 48 hours on hair that was already colored, making five-times-processed long hair.

I think the hair and its color are the least of what should be tackled. There's something (and I'm talking about other threads you've had over the last year or two) that makes you unhappy with the way things are at any given point in your life (be it relationally or physical-appreance-wise), and this lingering restless unhappiness makes you do things that can be self-destructive (you knew this would fry your hair; you've done the research) in order to try to escape where you are at this moment, and I think that this latest hair-frying has to do with the INSIDE and your emotions, way more than the outside and the color of the hair. The hair is peripheral. It can be colored twenty more times, to the point that it just disintegrates and falls out of the follicle. But what will be the next peripheral thing that can be changed in order to make it seem like we're happy for a fleeting moment and temporarily escape whatever's REALLY bugging us? Fix the ROOT of the problem, and the other stuff will fall into line.


I wrote something very similar but the internet ate it. It was also in response to Skitts.

BFH, I'm mostly bewildered and concerned about you, since i know you put so much research into dyeing your hair black with little damage (Wella or Ion shine), but now you've turned around that assaulted your hair in several ways.

I am more concerned about your emotional wellbeing, as I know you've been unahppy about your weight, and I know that when I am stressed, unhappy, or overwhelmed I will attack my hair or my face with a fiery vengence, with little or no regard to what the ultimate result will be. This often results in large, bloody scabs on my face or odd colors or cuts to my hair.

I just hope that you are ok, and whatever has led you to this hair debacle will work itself out for the best.

:grouphug:

[Polyhex]

I don't think your hair looks bad from the photos. If you treat it gently without further coloring, it will recover some condition, and you will learn what treatment works best for it. The two together could very well translate to healthy-looking and feeling hair.

[Dark Rosaleen]

Black Foot Hair, I'm sorry about the damage, but your hair WILL recover. If I were you, I'd get a cute short cut for summer and just let it grow. No more coloring. Embrace the natural girl! You have a lovely natural color.



I enjoy your posts BFH, and I hope you keep us updated.

[Emme76]

Blackfoothair - I have been where you are! I am serious, in just the same situation. I used to feel like I wanted a change (last time was...about 5 month ago)...and I changed my color...didn´t turn out very well. I kept coloring to get the "shade" I wanted but it never really worked. I did let my hair rest...then I went to the hairdresser, got a cut and she helped with the color. It cost me a bit but it was worth it.

I been like that since I damaged my hair when I was a teen. I kept wanting a change, make it prettier...a different color and so on. Now after joining LHC, it helps me to stop this. For me to be able to have healthy hair I have to stop coloring. I do use a semi permenent color (dark blond) that I get from my hairdresser once in a while. But it is a very very gentle color and I been doing this one for a while now...with no damage at all.

But it is hard and difficult to changa a bad habit. I know you didn´t do this wanting your hair to get damaged - you wanted your natural color and did something that you for the moment thought would work. And when you are in the "moment" your reason...isn´t herhaps the best. It is like that for me. I get so excited to see the "change" that I don´t think about anything else. But after starting to care for my hair and get great advice from LHC, I try to put my focus there...to make my hair healthy!

Don´t worry Blackfoothair - it will get better! It is not that bad. But an advice is. Go to a GOOD hairdresser and get a trim....then baby it back to health. AND before you do anything more to your hair....like coloring it again :)...wait for about 2 weeks and ask others what they think...on LHC...you are your own person and makes your own decisions...but it is good to get advice before you make up your mind.

Hang in there....:)
/Emme

[BlackfootHair]

Hey everyone...I had to work the 1-9 shift, so I'm just getting on now. I didn't wash my hair today, I just wet it down, smothered it with Vatika oil, and up in a clip it went. I took it down just now after work...so it's drying.. For now, Indian herbs are out of the question. I know that if I were to put in gritty herbs, as wonderful as they are, in my hair it would just equal more disaster for me. I'll be wearing my hair up and oiled most the time from now on. By the time I have money to afford a cut/trim I'll know from there if I need to cut a lot or just trim it for now.

My face is kind of fat so I don't want to get it cut really short. Maybe three inches above shoulder with layers.

I haven't really analyzed WHY I decided to do this crap to my hair. But I'm sure there is more than one cause.

As far as me liking the black and saying that I feel more "me" when it's black...I've finally admitted something to myself. Black hair only feels more "me" when I'm trying to be someone else. When I'm trying to look Indian and my medium brown natural color, or hennaed color hair doesn't cut it, black does. I watch Indian movies with pretty women and gorgeous black hair...mix in a love story and music that make your head spin, and it's like being three all over...you know when you watch Disney princess movies and you want to be just like them? Or something similar? Just like in high school...I dyed my hair very dark and wore red lipstick because I was infatuated with Selena.

I really need to discover and celebrate "me".

I do have a lot of stress in my life. There are some nights that DF barely gets any sleep because I thrash around in bed. I'm completely unaware when I do it.

I've recently had a few major things pop up in my life that are pretty worrysome. I would love to have my mom. Not having her for these events also adds stress. Thankfully I have an aunt who wants to comfort me like a mom. She always was like a second mom to me anyways...long before I lost mine.

I think that's part of why I spend so much time on this board. There are so many women here to connect with...whether it's on deeper issues....or just to talk about chai.

I have a book called "Motherless Daughters" and it has a chapter that talks about how women who loose a mom yearn to develop more relationships with women...sometimes unbenounced to them.

Okay...I'm going to stop on all that and nibble some dark chocolate. I'm a little premenstrual, so I know that's part of it...plus I'm tired. I wasn't trying to open a can of worms or something with that mom stuff. It is what it is. I miss her...that's it. It's always such a shock to think how long it's been...Four years...four years I haven't seen my mom,...talked to her...hugged her....it's hard...you get used to the fact that your motherless...but it's never okay...and it's never easy. No matter how old I get, even when I'm 70, I'll still cry for her. Although sometimes, when I'm lucky, I see her in my dreams. Not too long ago we were in Walmart together. It was a silly dream, but I woke up really happy.

Okay! Geeze...I said I was moving on and I kept going...I could erase it, but sometimes I don't feel like censoring myself.

Back to hair...LJ, The day I bleached it, I put a semi permanent over it. It was the kind that is just the liquid in the bottle...no developer.
The next morning I did another one. These were very gentle and actually contained good ingredients.
Then the third day I used ammonia free permanent color...

Now I"m done with the color. Even though I have orange streaks left in my hair. And to anyone that thought the color looked good, trust me, the camera lies. :)

[Darian Moone]

I've done the same thing to my hair trying to bring it back to blonde after dying it dark brown for a while - using bleach. I got the same results you did and ended up cutting it, dying it with a boxed hair color kit in an ash brown, then slowly bringing the color up by doing chammomile tea soaks, using honey, etc. I'm still finishing up getting rid of the damage, but the good news is that it's hair - it grows back.

(((((HUGS))))) to you for the pain you go through over the loss of your mom. I know there's nothing I can say to really help, but I just wanted you to know that I care. :blossom:

[sapphire-o]

It's OK. It's just hair. I know this is a hair board, but still it's not such a vital part of our body. Many people have emotional issues. To be honest I have a lot of issues with my mother (who's very toxic and abusive) and growing my hair long is partially to defy her. I never had long hair when I was living with my parents. I still get sad when I see movies or books about maternal love. And I'm 35 and have been a mother for years. I still can't get over it that my mother will never understand me or approve me.

Just try to pick something else to change next time, not a part of your body would be the best. :)

[Nat242]

BFH - I'm sorry about your mum, and the stress and anxiety you are facing in your life. I understand now why you've been so indecisive about your hair, and I'm glad you've come to a good decision to be more "you", and part of that is going back to your natural colour.

Nurturing yourself and your hair, as an extension of that, can be therapeutic, but it's only therapeutic if you don't stress about it, and just let it be sometimes!

If you need to make changes in your life - and it sounds like you do - don't take it out on your body (and hair). Can you see a counsellor, or go to a grief support group? What can you do to relax before bed? A good night sleep has no equal.

I too, have lost my mum (almost 2 years ago, feels like 2 days ago) - if you want to chat, please feel free to PM me.

-- Natalie

[shellblue1]

BFH, it really doesn't look bad at all! It doesn't look that damaged. I have done some pretty awful things to my hair too, like numerous assaults with bleach. I have gone from bleached blonde to dark brown to black to red to brown with blonde streaks to black again! Whew! My hair is getting over the damage and I think I'm going to leave it alone for awhile (except color the roots when needed). I have been contemplating adding some highlights but then again that is bleach on black and I'd just be asking for damage.

But really, your hair doesn't look that damaged. :) It still has some nice shine to it.

[manderly]

BFH :grouphug:

I'm sorry about your mom, and we are all very happy to be here on this board to connect with you.

Honestly, your hair does not look tragic, just a little thirsty. Don't chop, stay away from all scissors for a while.

I figured there were some deep emotional things going on, and I'm glad you're ready to embrace YOU.

We can fix this!!! You come here and let us know if you need us, and you can feel free to PM me anytime if you wish.

[Sian100]

Um, why is everyone slamming BFH when she quite clearly said that she was trying to come here but kept getting error messages? I don't think this is a case of not listening, it's a case of desperation + not being able to view the responses on the thread.


It's happened before, several times, with different issues.

[jojo]

oh dear im sorry but id too cut it, no offense. but its hair-it grows please keep these pictures as a reminder.

[BlackfootHair]

I took a look at my hair this morning...when I get paid I'm definitely at least getting the ends trimmed. They are jagged. I keep doing the shed hair test...pulling shed hair between two fingers to monitor where it's at with stretching and breaking. Wow...some areas will stretch, others not, but it doesn't take much for it to break. I've heard castor oil is rich in protein. I do have some Hesh herbal castor oil. I might try alternating my oils. Today I'll try damp bunning with my Hesh castor oil, since yesterday I bunned with Vatika. Vatika oil has protein in it. It contains milk...Does coconut oil by itself have protein? With all the oil that's on my head I'll use a gentle shampoo, and then the Kpak reconstructor conditioner.

I should really just stick to changing up my eyeshadow or eyeliner colors...:)

Well, I'm going back to bed...I still want another hour or two of sleep. :D

[spidermom]

Hi BFH. Good night's sleep? What's that? (I'm a thrasher, too.)

Nope - coconut oil doesn't contain any protein. It does prevent protein loss from hair, however.

[wintersun99]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[manderly]

BFH, have you tried the aphogee treatement from Sallys?

[Calista]

No oil is rich in protein. Oils are rich in oil. If you want protein you should do a proper protein treatment. :twocents:

[spidermom]

I did a little research on castor oil since the last time I was in this thread, and Calista is correct. There is little to no protein in it. The castor bean is rich in protein, but it's poisonous. Furthermore, it is described as being perfect for lubrication in engines because it withstands high temperatures. It is not easily absorbed by skin or hair, therefore would impart no lasting benefit.

[Nightshade]

BlackFootHair - Is this true about castor oil being rich in protein? If it helps your hair, please let me know. I have damage on each side, but not the back, that is very similiar to yours and if you find this oil helps, I'd love to know. I have been using EVOO and coconut oil and although it is nice, it's not helping much. :(

Honestly, wander down to the local drugstore and pick up some henna and placenta. You get the protein treatment, and the strength of cassia, and it's less than $2 to try :)

[BlackfootHair]

I thought castor oil had protein.I'll have to do some research next time I'm on the computer.
No I haven't tried the Aphrogee treatment. I have some henna and placenta leave in spray. I'll have to break it out and use it now. :-)

[Riot Crrl]

The pictures look to me like the egg made it worse. I'm not so sure if the protein is actually helping.

[wintersun99]

.............

[ReadingRenee]

Something think on: when/ If you do get it cut, don't get too much cut off as you won't be able to wear it up if its too short to hide the damage that you don't cut off. What I did was to get a lot of the damage cut off but I left enough to pull it up to hide it and just kept steadily trimming away over the years.

But whatever works for you, its just an idea. :)

[Elenna]

Black Foot Hair

From everyone's posting to you, it looks like a lot of people are concerned about you. It's not just your hair, it is how you are feeling lately too.

[chamogirl]

I had a bad hair dye accident that turned my hair orange in horizontal stripes. I eventually cut it all off and gradually bleached it all out. My hair is too light and was cut incorrectly again. I need to grow my hair out back to shoulder length. Lessons learned.
I would soak my hair in leave in conditioner and wear it up with a ball cap if you can.

[BlackfootHair]

Well, I washed the castor oil out this morning. I think that it definitely has something different about it because my hair felt different. It felt more like hair instead of one big handful of soft mushy stuff. I only washed it once, not twice. Then conditioned with K Pak reconstructor knock off conditioner. Oiled with Vatika oil, and now my hair is happily up in a clip. I noticed the ends of my hair were really shiny, but the length where it was killed by bleach didn't look so much.

The fact that my hair at least feels better makes me excited. I tested a shed hair today and it stretched really far, bounced back to original shape, but broke fairly easy if stretched hard/fast enough. But still, the fact that it would go back to it's original length make me happy!

My hair felt like it wanted to tangle slightly after I got out of the shower, but I didn't wash all the oil out from before I think. Still, I oiled with my Vatika again, and up it is...Perhaps because castor oil is thicker it gives that effect.

The smell of it was making me very sleepy yesterday. It smells slightly like incense. It's red in color too, and my Vatika oil is greenish...so I guess they'll cancel eachother out.

When I get it trimmed I'll only get a small amount off. I thought about getting layers and such to keep the length but get rid of the damage...but I'm happy I can twist my hair up in a clip. If I had too much trimmed, I wouldn't be able to do that. Plus I definitely need to be able to clip it up since I still have orange areas. :)

[Kittee]

Buzz cut it off and start off fresh. *grin*

Sometimes I wish I could do that. I envy women brave enough to start completely over.

[brok3nwings]

BlackfootHair well i understand your pain. it is true i believe it is psicological, i used to do those things to my hair and i always cried...i think i needed to cry for something and i couldnt so i hurted myself with the thing about my body that i liked the most. I didnt realise it but...it is very possible. I had my hair long and medium blond and strong, everyone just made me feel great about my hair, then i went to university to take architecture with 17 years old, at the 3rd best university of architecture of the world. I wasnt prepared at all! But my personality didnt let me say "dont kill yourself about this" so i just kept going, didnt sleep at all, ended up my relationship so...yes i cut my hair short, then after a year even shorter (i had half an inch of hair..) since then i just couldnt stop. i left the university to change to another, change places, friends...when i had to deal with something i went to the hairdresser, instantly. I knew that it would bring me something to think about for a while and i knew
that i wouldnt be able to do something about it then. So i would be despered but i wouldnt have to move myself to it because it would be hopeless. So i dont really know if somewhat you are doing the same to you...but if i were you i would take care of my hair for a while and then if it doesnt go right i would cut it. I had my hair really bad and i am sure that i liked it better really short than fried. Good luck!
P.s. Did you think about henna? It looks like it helps...

[KajiKodomo]

Kittee, haha, that's what I did.

I was in a very similar situation BlackfootHair, except my hair looked quite a bit worse than your pictures. Even though my pictures looked better than my hair did (the camera lied!). My hair had blonde, orange, and black streaks in it. It was pale, almost white blonde at the roots, and some of the ends got mushy and broke off.

I, like you, tried to dye my hair a light brown, and when that didn't work, a dark brown. Unlike you, that didn't work even slightly. My hair was so damaged that it wouldn't hold any pigment at all. So, I buzzcut it all off.

I don't think your hair is quite damaged enough to do something so extreme. Unless you want to, that is. Heh. I had always wanted a buzzcut just to see what it felt like, and that gave me a VERY good reason to do so.

I think the main reason that my hair was much worse off than yours is because the front of my hair had already been bleached/lightened twice prior to my color-removal attempts. I used proper color-removers instead of bleach for my hair (I think I used 3 of them?), and it still ended up VERY damaged.

I personally think that your hair will be just fine with a lot of TLC and moisture. You're already on your way since it doesn't feel mushy anymore! (After my two bleaches on the front of my hair, it got mushy and broke off into bangs from about chin-length, so I know where you're coming from with the mushiness, it's gross and very scary!) I know from experience that in a few months or so, you SHOULD be able to redye over it again to get a more even color, because I was able to dye over my mushy bangs a few months later.

Definitely keep your hair up and out of sight. Keep it moisturized. My suggestion is to saturate it in oil and wear it up (my favorite is Africa's Best Herbal Oil, in the ethnic hair care section). It will look like it's wet, but it will moisturize it very well. I've done this on occasion, and it's a nice way to do an oil treatment while you go about your daily business.

Keep us updated and let us know the progress you make!

[BlackfootHair]

Well, I trimmed my hair myself. I did a blunt trim all around. It's now above my shoulders, but I feel much better about it. Knowing that the damaged ends are gone...well, that part of them anyways. I have pictures of my hair about this length with some longer layers in it. It was a nice cut and I think I might have that done soon. That way I can A) get rid of more damage since the majority is right in the length. and B) Get rid of more colored hair since I'll be getting rid of it sooner or later. If I keep the length I'll still be able to put it up in the clip. Or at the very least, a pony tail.

It sounds silly but I'm super excited to see my new growth already sprouting from my head. It's barely there and I have to tilt my head just right, but it's there! Since summer is coming and that means faster growth for me, that makes me even more willing to trim layers in it. Plus I have a coupon. :)

[Loviatar]

Ouch BFH, just read this thread as I've been off-forum for a few days. I'm glad you've managed to sort things out enough.

When I bleached out all my old henna, red dye, and black dye, my hair went orange with brown-green ends and stripes. But I didnt bleach it myself; I got a salon to do it, and then they toned it back to a sensible non-tiger colour!

The things that helped my hair then were Hask Henna-n-Placenta treatments, once a week, and a SMT with honey once a week. Oils did nothing for me, but it's rare I find an oil that my hair likes.

I'm going to be having mine bleached and re-coloured red some point soon, so I'm stocking up on CO, babying my hair, and SMTs. I know I will have more damage than I do now, but colour is more important to me than extreme length at the moment. If length becomes more important than colour, I'll likely go back to henna.

Good luck with your hair BFH, and I hope you can settle with it comfortably now; don't do anything else drastic to it. LisaJaney's post was better than anything I could have said, IMHO.

Lovi