Lighten / Remove Henna with ION Crystal Clarifying Treatment?

[MeMyselfandI]

I thought I would post this here. I know many of use are looking for ways to lighten henna on our hair.

I found this posted in H4H:

http://www.hennaforhair.com/forum/index.php?module=phpwsbb&PHPWSBB_MAN_OP=view&PHPWS_MAN_ITEMS[]=8552

The product used is called Ion Crystal Clarifying Treatment.

Has anyone tryed this before for henna lightening or removal? What results did you have? Did it darken again. I wish I can get a hold of some EDTA.

I wish there was a Sally store near me.

Product Details (from Sally web site):

Removes chlorine and swimmer’s green
Use before chemical services to ensure more even results
Use after chemical services to remove odor and itchy scalp
Prevents hair breakage
Not recommended for gray or white hairIon Crystal Clarifying Treatment naturally and safely removes buildup from styling, hard water minerals, iron, rust, copper and chlorine. Leaves hair shinier and with more volume. When used before coloring or other chemical service, it ensure more even results. Use after services to remove harsh odors and residue that can irritate scalp.

Ingredients:
SODIUM GLUCONATE ,ASCORBIC ACID ,XANTHAN GUM ,DISODIUM EDTA ,GLUCOSE ,CITRIC ACID ,MALIC ACID ,POLYQUATERNIUM-10 ,ALOE BARBADENSIS LEAF ,ALLANTOIN

http://www.sallybeauty.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-SA-Site/default/Search-Show?q=crystal+clarifying+treatment

ETA: Sorry I have no idea why the link does not work. The post is called "Lighten Henna from hair"

[Nightshade]

Yep, I'm 99.9% sure that that's been tried before and didn't do much at all. The acid may appear to make it lighten at first, much like lemon juice and conditioner does, but it tends to darken back up.

It sounds similar to this (sniped from the henna article):
Goldenhair’s Method
This method is reported to have worked, but no specific product is given for the crystals she used. See her method here. (http://www.network54.com/Forum/191096/message/1033261967/I+removed+the+henna+%26amp%3B+went+back+to+my+blon de.+Update.) Here's the product she used:L'Oreal Effasol Color Remover

[MeMyselfandI]

Yep, I'm 99.9% sure that that's been tried before and didn't do much at all. The acid may appear to make it lighten at first, much like lemon juice and conditioner does, but it tends to darken back up.

It sounds similar to this (sniped from the henna article):
Goldenhair’s Method
This method is reported to have worked, but no specific product is given for the crystals she used. See her method here. (http://www.network54.com/Forum/191096/message/1033261967/I+removed+the+henna+%26amp%3B+went+back+to+my+blon de.+Update.) Here's the product she used:L'Oreal Effasol Color Remover

I had seen in your article where you mentioned Goldenhair’s Method. I ignored the article because the L'Oreal Effasol Color Remover was mentioned (In my mind the Effasol is something like ColorFix or Color Opps.) I think the L'Oreal Effasol Color Remover and Crystal Clarifying Treatment are not the same type of chemical/product.

Did Goldenhair's hair go darker again?

Either way, I would like to know exactly what product (or type of product) Goldenhair used on her hair.

Edit to Add:

I found the indredient list for L'OREAL Effasol Color Remover at: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GENN9Y/ref=asc_df_B001GENN9Y712268?smid=A3MUP0TQW88EYV&tag=dealt7121-20&linkCode=asn

Ingredients
Ammonium Chloride, Cellulose Gum, Dioctyl Sodium Sulfosuccinate, EDTA, Potassium Persulfate, Sodium Benzoate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Metasilicate, Sodium Persulfate, Strontium Dioxide, Ultramarines.

I think the Effasol works on increasing the size of chemical dye molecule so it can be rinsed out of the hair.

[twilight]

from personal experience (last weekend) effasol DOES NOT remove henna. i can't say if it lightens b/c my goal was to remove old dye/indigo so i'm not sure what my hair was like underneath. it may have lightened the old henna slightly.

ion crystals are awesome for clarifying and removing things like manic panic, etc, but i would be very surprised if it lightened henna. it's very gentle stuff and like nightshade mentions, mostly just acidic.

btw effasol is just like colorfix/uncolor (not sure about coloroops)... harsh and nasty, to be used as a last resort only just before bleach!

ETA: nightshade, i read the same article and was really suspicious that "effasol" was named as what goldenhair used... i thought she was talking about the ion crystals also, but didn't want to start a fuss. so i assumed you had asked her and she confirmed it was effasol (but that seems odd since it's a blue powder and doesn't turn into gel)...

[ktani]

It is my understanding, that a number of treatments that have been reported to remove henna, not simply lighten it, have removed unbound henna, henna that has not fully oxidized and bound to hair.

It may be that whatever was used, was able to do so because of this.

There was 1 only report in the original Honey thread, of the old honey and conditioner recipe, removing a henna and plant mix, that had been used once.

Honey lightening does not remove henna but it can lighten it.

I have seen a number of similar reports and I think that when the henna is removed, that is really what has happened.

[Nightshade]

ETA: nightshade, i read the same article and was really suspicious that "effasol" was named as what goldenhair used... i thought she was talking about the ion crystals also, but didn't want to start a fuss. so i assumed you had asked her and she confirmed it was effasol (but that seems odd since it's a blue powder and doesn't turn into gel)...

I never got to speak to her directly :( What I have is mostly from the H4H fourms, and she rather dropped off the planet and was impossible to contact directly.

There was someone on another long hair board that got her henna out with a fruit-based thing, but no one seems sure what the heck that was either:

Fruit-Based Color Stripper and Color Toning Afterwards
One woman managed to get back to blonde from henna copper after a long, expensive process. You can read her story and see her results here (http://www.network54.com/Forum/235232/message/1093467916/).

[MeMyselfandI]

from personal experience (last weekend) effasol DOES NOT remove henna. i can't say if it lightens b/c my goal was to remove old dye/indigo so i'm not sure what my hair was like underneath. it may have lightened the old henna slightly.

ion crystals are awesome for clarifying and removing things like manic panic, etc, but i would be very surprised if it lightened henna. it's very gentle stuff and like nightshade mentions, mostly just acidic.

btw effasol is just like colorfix/uncolor (not sure about coloroops)... harsh and nasty, to be used as a last resort only just before bleach!

ETA: nightshade, i read the same article and was really suspicious that "effasol" was named as what goldenhair used... i thought she was talking about the ion crystals also, but didn't want to start a fuss. so i assumed you had asked her and she confirmed it was effasol (but that seems odd since it's a blue powder and doesn't turn into gel)...

twilight,

Intresting,

I thought Uncolor is like Wellasol (Which I have and will be the last choice after peroxide.) I did not realize that Effasol is a similar product.

I thought that color Fix and Color Opps were similar products.

[SimplyLonghair]

My DD and I did use these Ion crystals and while they did work, to some extent, the resulting damage in the long run is NOT worth it!
They are very drying and we had to do MAJOR mayo and oil and other SMT type methods to help the hair repair, and we ended up cutting all of that hair off to really end the problems.:rolleyes::D

[SimplyLonghair]

I agree with Nightshade about the unbound henna being what was lifted. We had a problem that was in DD hair, which she had hennaed and indigoed over dyed hair. We used the ion crystals and later tried a honey and tomato and perioxide mix, which the honey and tomato and peroxide worked the best and did the least damage. But for our type hair the end result of the crystals were that it hated the acid. I cannot use any acid other than a very mild ACV mix on my hair, it hates it. So be very careful. For some it might work, their hair might like acid, it just melted ours. :shrug::rolleyes:

[MeMyselfandI]

I never got to speak to her directly :( What I have is mostly from the H4H fourms, and she rather dropped off the planet and was impossible to contact directly.

There was someone on another long hair board that got her henna out with a fruit-based thing, but no one seems sure what the heck that was either:

Fruit-Based Color Stripper and Color Toning Afterwards
One woman managed to get back to blonde from henna copper after a long, expensive process. You can read her story and see her results here (http://www.network54.com/Forum/235232/message/1093467916/).


Yup, what is Fruit-based color stripping. No company is listed either.

I would love to have her color hair.



It is my understanding, that a number of treatments that have been reported to remove henna, not simply lighten it, have removed unbound henna, henna that has not fully oxidized and bound to hair.

It may be that whatever was used, was able to do so because of this.

There was 1 only report in the original Honey thread, of the old honey and conditioner recipe, removing a henna and plant mix, that had been used once.

Honey lightening does not remove henna but it can lighten it.

I have seen a number of similar reports and I think that when the henna is removed, that is really what has happened.

ktani,

I am intrested in the ION Crystal Clarifying Treatment because Christy (the poster) posted she has been hennaing for a year and a half with a few full head applications at the beginning.

[MeMyselfandI]

My DD and I did use these Ion crystals and while they did work, to some extent, the resulting damage in the long run is NOT worth it!
They are very drying and we had to do MAJOR mayo and oil and other SMT type methods to help the hair repair, and we ended up cutting all of that hair off to really end the problems.:rolleyes::D



I agree with Nightshade about the unbound henna being what was lifted. We had a problem that was in DD hair, which she had hennaed and indigoed over dyed hair. We used the ion crystals and later tried a honey and tomato and perioxide mix, which the honey and tomato and peroxide worked the best and did the least damage. But for our type hair the end result of the crystals were that it hated the acid. I cannot use any acid other than a very mild ACV mix on my hair, it hates it. So be very careful. For some it might work, their hair might like acid, it just melted ours. :shrug::rolleyes:

SimplyLonghair,

Thank you for sharing your and your daughter's experience. Sorry to hear about the damaged caused.

My goal is to remove the reddish orange color (was red) from the section of my hair that was previously chemically dyed.

[Heidi_234]

There MUST be a a way to unbound the lawsone...
Melt it (with the rest of your hair)...
Seduce it with cookies...
Something!

[MeMyselfandI]

There MUST be a a way to unbound the lawsone...
Melt it (with the rest of your hair)...
Seduce it with cookies...
Something!

Melt it (with the rest of your hair)... Unfortunately that is very easy to do.

Seduce it with cookies... That has not worked yet. LOL

Something! The million dollar question.

[Nightshade]

Something! The million dollar question.

Well, there's 420+ posts of henna removal attempts in this thread :)

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=71635

Everything from carbon to laundry detergent to citric acid. Worth the read if you ever are so inclined. It was the successes with peroxide in there that gave me the guts to lighten mine up with Sun-In, and that, at least for the lift I was looking for, worked really well without damage.

[MeMyselfandI]

Well, there's 420+ posts of henna removal attempts in this thread :)

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=71635

Everything from carbon to laundry detergent to citric acid. Worth the read if you ever are so inclined. It was the successes with peroxide in there that gave me the guts to lighten mine up with Sun-In, and that, at least for the lift I was looking for, worked really well without damage.

I love that thread. I read it sometime last fall. I remember how wow I felt at all the things people were trying.

Because of that thread, after doing four honey attempts (50 grams honey 200 ml deionized water) I have also tryed three lemon juice and conditioner treatments. (I wonder if bottled lemon juice works as well as fresh squeezed lemons. I have done yogurt and now am sitting with EVOO and alma on my head.

I do not know if I can get clarifying crystals or not, if I can I will try it.

My next option after that will be peroxide or Sun-In with coconut oil as a pretreatment. Sun-In is sold as a seasonal item. I am not sure it is available yet. I should be receiving my henna order by Tuesday so then I will have more courage to try to get all the colour out.

[Nightshade]

I was able to get my Sun-In at WalMart :) It seems part of their standard stock.

[MeMyselfandI]

I was able to get my Sun-In at WalMart :) It seems part of their standard stock.

Thanks Nightshade, I will check there tomorrow.

[Jeni]

Thanks Nightshade, I will check there tomorrow.

I usually see it in the hair dye section at the bottom thrown in a corner near the funky colors (blue/red/green/purple). I have also seen it in the "summer section" with the sun oils and stuff.

[chickpea]

I have used the Ion clarifying treatment and saw no difference in hair color. EDTA is supposed to remove chlorine and hard water minerals, I don't think it would have any effect on henna.

[Heidi_234]

Well, there's 420+ posts of henna removal attempts in this thread :)

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=71635

Everything from carbon to laundry detergent to citric acid. Worth the read if you ever are so inclined. It was the successes with peroxide in there that gave me the guts to lighten mine up with Sun-In, and that, at least for the lift I was looking for, worked really well without damage.
Hydrogen peroxide doesn't remove henna, but it lightens it, which is good enough for most people.
Funny thing is, I'm not really trying to remove my henna. I just want the hair underneath lighter, much lighter. :p

[Nightshade]

Hydrogen peroxide doesn't remove henna, but it lightens it, which is good enough for most people.
Funny thing is, I'm not really trying to remove my henna. I just want the hair underneath lighter, much lighter. :p

I'm just curious as to why, if it's the henna lightening rather than the hair underneath

how we know that and
why doesn't the henna redarken?

[ktani]

I'm just curious as to why, if it's the henna lightening rather than the hair underneath
how we know that and
why doesn't the henna redarken?

I think that both the natural pigment and the henna pigment are lightening with peroxide.

The henna is not redarkening because unlike a redox reaction, which can be mostly undone by oxygen, hydrogen peroxide lightening, is not known to be reversible.

[Heidi_234]

I think that both the natural pigment and the henna pigment are lightening with peroxide.

The henna is not redarkening because unlike a redox reaction, which can be mostly undone by oxygen, hydrogen peroxide lightening, is not known to be reversible.
This, and/but -
When lightening with bleach to the max, which uses alkali to open the hair shaft and allow the lightener to reach the hair pigment, the end color is bright orange, as you'd expect from henna over very bright or white hair.
Also, in my various tests, the color of the hair with hydrogen peroxide is more mousy/grayish, as like it removes the henna red. When lightening with bleach, the color is lighter, but more vivid, coppery maybe.
When I added baking soda to the hydrogen peroxide, it lightened to a more vivid color, so I assume, the baking soda allowed the peroxide reach 'under' the henna, and lighten the hair under as well as the henna.

[ktani]

ktani,

I am intrested in the ION Crystal Clarifying Treatment because Christy (the poster) posted she has been hennaing for a year and a half with a few full head applications at the beginning.

It may be worth trying for you. And thank you for clarifyig things with this example. Good luck if you do try it!

[Nightshade]

That makes sense :flower: Thank you both!

[ktani]

That makes sense :flower: Thank you both!

There does not appear to be any alkali in the Sun-In you used and yet it removed the older dark dye from your hair as well as lightened the henna.

If you have pH test strips, you can test the Sun-In pH.

Honey lightening has been reported to lighten all types of hair colour and it is acidic. No redarkening, except when enough Vitamin C has been used in a recipe, depleted the peroxide, and caused a redox reaction, with henna only. That had nothing to do with the peroxide.

[Heidi_234]

There does not appear to be any alkali in the Sun-In you used and yet it removed the older dark dye from your hair as well as lightened the henna.

If you have pH test strips, you can test the Sun-In pH.
This made me think that maybe Sun-In session should be finished with not just a wash (of course) but also ACV rinse, to restore pH just in case. Same goes with bleach.

[Nightshade]

This made me think that maybe Sun-In session should be finished with not just a wash (of course) but also ACV rinse, to restore pH just in case. Same goes with bleach.

Ahh, good idea. I'll try that next time.



There does not appear to be any alkali in the Sun-In you used and yet it removed the older dark dye from your hair as well as lightened the henna.

If you have pH test strips, you can test the Sun-In pH.

Honey lightening has been reported to lighten all types of hair colour and it is acidic. No redarkening, except when enough Vitamin C has been used in a recipe, depleted the peroxide, and caused a redox reaction, with henna only. That had nothing to do with the peroxide.

I do have PH strips (for my aquariums) so I'll give it a go if I remember :)

[ktani]

This made me think that maybe Sun-In session should be finished with not just a wash (of course) but also ACV rinse, to restore pH just in case. Same goes with bleach.

If the Sun-In is acidic, as I suspect, no vinegar rinse would be required.

The bleach sessions, yes because of the alkali.

The same would apply if you just used develper. It is alkaline too.

[ktani]

Ahh, good idea. I'll try that next time.

I do have PH strips (for my aquariums) so I'll give it a go if I remember :)

I think that a vinegar rinse may help the tangling but it may also add to the dryness problem and if it is not needed, your conditioners, which are also acidic but contain emmolients, and moisturize, would be a better choice, IMO.

[Heidi_234]

I do have PH strips (for my aquariums) so I'll give it a go if I remember :)
Please do, it could be helpful. :flower:

[ktani]

Please do, it could be helpful. :flower:

I think that it would also be helpful to know the volume of peroxide in this Sun-In but I will settle, at this point for the pH, lol.

It is crucial to me to know as much I can about anything I put in my hair, period.

I think with these experiments that it is even more important, both to have an idea about what to expect and how to deal with things post application.

From the reports with coconut oil as a pre treatment, which I think should be done well enough in advance to be absorbed by the hair, the dyness and tangling and stripped feeling, reported to be the usual result of conventional hair colouring, was reported to be considerably reduced or not felt at all, post application.

[ktani]

I saw this online the other day but the % of peroxide mentioned did not match anything I saw online for Sun-In, elsewhere.

".... Examples of such products include SUPER SUN-IN, SUPER WITH LEMON SUN-IN, and GRADUAL SUN-IN FOR MEN. SUPER SUN-IN has about 1.9% hydrogen peroxide at a pH of about 4.0. SUPER WITH LEMON SUN-IN has about 3.7% hydrogen peroxide at a pH of about 4.0. And GRADUAL SUN-IN FOR MEN has about 3.7% hydrogen peroxide at a pH of about 3."
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5968486.html

[Heidi_234]

I wonder if I can see the pH of my Sun-In using hibiscus. It would give a vogue impression if it's acidic or alkaline. Hmm...

[ktani]

I wonder if I can see the pH of my Sun-In using hibiscus. It would give a vogue impression if it's acidic or alkaline. Hmm...

Hibiscus tea is very acidic and contains a lot of Vitamin C, which will be oxidized by the peroxide, depleteing it, although the Sun-In peroxide is conventional peroxide, so it has been stabilized.

Hard to say what result you will get. Probably nothing noticeable, IMO. It is worth a shot though. Go for it.

It also depends on how much Sun-In to how much tea you use and given the expense involved, that you paid for the Sun-In, on 2nd thought, wait for Nightshade to test hers, IMO.

[Heidi_234]

Hibiscus tea is very acidic and contains a lot of Vitamin C, which will be oxidized by the peroxide, depleteing it, although the Sun-In peroxide is conventional peroxide, so it has been stabilized.

Hard to say what result you will get. Probably nothing noticeable, IMO. It is worth a shot though. Go for it.

It also depends on how much Sun-In to how much tea you use and given the expense involved, that you paid for the Sun-In, on 2nd thought, wait for Nightshade to test hers, IMO.
True, I haven't thought it though. But I didn't intend to drop hibiscus flower in the container, just to spray some Sun-In on a small dried hibiscus part and see what color it bleeds.
Anyway, its not essential, and Nightshade got pH testing stripes.

[MeMyselfandI]

It may be worth trying for you. And thank you for clarifyig things with this example. Good luck if you do try it!

I did not find any crystals.

So I will go to the peroxide with the coconut pretreatment.


I saw this online the other day but the % of peroxide mentioned did not match anything I saw online for Sun-In, elsewhere.



.... Examples of such products include SUPER SUN-IN, SUPER WITH LEMON SUN-IN, and GRADUAL SUN-IN FOR MEN. SUPER SUN-IN has about 1.9% hydrogen peroxide at a pH of about 4.0. SUPER WITH LEMON SUN-IN has about 3.7% hydrogen peroxide at a pH of about 4.0. And GRADUAL SUN-IN FOR MEN has about 3.7% hydrogen peroxide at a pH of about 3."

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5968486.html

Thank you for the info about sun-in. (I did not even know they make one for men.)

Would such a small difference in pH make a difference on a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution when it comes to lightening.

I have a 6% salon solution which is ph balanced(I would dilute to 3% with distilled water) and I have the regular 3 % the one bought for wounds, which I would use straight.

(I decide not to use sun-in because it has conditioners. I do not want the conditioners to mask up any damage the hydrogen peroxide may be doing.?

[ktani]

I did not find any crystals.

So I will go to the peroxide with the coconut pretreatment.



Thank you for the info about sun-in. (I did not even know they make one for men.)

Would such a small difference in pH make a difference on a 3% hydrogen peroxide solution when it comes to lightening.

I have a 6% salon solution which is ph balanced(I would dilute to 3% with distilled water) and I have the regular 3 % the one bought for wounds, which I would use straight.

(I decide not to use sun-in because it has conditioners. I do not want the conditioners to mask up any damage the hydrogen peroxide may be doing.?

You are welcome but as I said, those percentages did not match other information I found on Sun-In. I am not sure that they manufacture those variations anymore.

Sun-In conditioning additives are not bad IMO, they may be helpful, somewhat for the hair.

[MeMyselfandI]

You are welcome but as I said, those percentages did not match other information I found on Sun-In. I am not sure that they manufacture those variations anymore.

Sun-In conditioning additives are not bad IMO, they may be helpful, somewhat for the hair.

I do not think that the conditioning additives are bad either.

I just want to make sure that the conditioners will not mask up any damages that may be caused. If that makes any sense.

[ktani]

I do not think that the conditioning additives are bad either.

I just want to make sure that the conditioners will not mask up any damages that may be caused. If that makes any sense.

It is whatever you think is best, in terms of your choice but I do not think that these can.

[iris]

I'm just curious as to why, if it's the henna lightening rather than the hair underneath

how we know that and]
Peroxide lightens both the natural pigment and the henna. How do we know, just by careful observation of the resulting color.

My hennaed hair went to dark golden yellow with very long peroxide soaks.

Now, my natural color has almost no yellow (it just turns white with peroxide without going through a yellow stage first, and it does this very quickly, too). So, the yellow can't come from my natural pigment.

Say that peroxide affected only my natural pigment, what would the resulting color have been? Well, it would look like henna over white hair, so, a bright brownish orange.

My hair didn't turn brownish orange though, it turned dark yellow. So, something must have happened to the henna, changing it from brownish orange to dark yellow.

I can't really say from looking at it whether peroxide affected my natural pigment under the henna. I just assume that it did, because I know how cowardly my natural pigment behaves in the face of peroxide. And it's not exactly like peroxide is a big molecule that wouldn't be able to go past lawsone. Peroxide is small.


why doesn't the henna redarken?
Like with lemon juice, you mean?

Lemon juice (without heat) is a reducing agent. That means that when it reacts with something, it will give electrons to that thing it reacts with.

By the nature of our atmosphere (which is oxidative), reaction products formed by reduction will usually not be very stable, - since our air takes the electrons back that were given to the reaction product by the reduction.

So, bottom line, if you give electrons to lawsone by reducing it (as lemon juice does), the air will take them back.

Giving or taking electrons to a molecule changes their color. The light is absorbed differently depending on the constellation of the molecule. We know (from chemists) that the lawsone molecule with one extra electron looks bright yellow/orange, and lawsone with two extra electrons is colorless.

Peroxide, on the other hand, is an oxidative agent. That means that it will take electrons from the thing it reacts with. Things that were formed by oxidation are usually more stable, because what our atmosphere does, is oxidize things, and since this thing has already been oxidized... :shrug: let's say the air can't touch it again, because anything the air could do to it (take electrons), has already been done by the peroxide.

I don't know from chemists what lawsone oxidized by peroxide looks like, but from just looking at what happened to my hair I'd say 'dirty dark yellow'.

ktani, any reaction that involves electron transfer from one substance to the other is called a redox reaction. 'Redox' as a word is a short form for 'reduction and oxidation'. Reduction and oxidation go together in the same reaction.

For instance, when peroxide oxidizes something (takes electrons from it), the peroxide itself is reduced (because it gains those electrons that it takes from the other participant in the reaction). You can't say that the reaction is oxidative or reductive. Only that one of the participants in that one reaction is reduced, and the other is oxidized. The reaction as a whole is a redox reaction - it involves both reduction (electron gain for one participant) and oxidation (electron loss for the other participant).

Wiki on redox. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox) Not a difficult read, and all highschool material.

[ktani]

ktani, any reaction that involves electron transfer from one substance to the other is called a redox reaction. 'Redox' as a word is a short form for 'reduction and oxidation'. Reduction and oxidation go together in the same reaction.

For instance, when peroxide oxidizes something (takes electrons from it), the peroxide itself is reduced (because it gains those electrons that it takes from the other participant in the reaction). You can't say that the reaction is oxidative or reductive. Only that one of the participants in that one reaction is reduced, and the other is oxidized. The reaction as a whole is a redox reaction - it involves both reduction (electron gain for one participant) and oxidation (electron loss for the other participant).

Wiki on redox. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox) Not a difficult read, and all highschool material.

This is easier for me to understand, than an explanation of the transfer of electrons, but great post!. This explains to me, why henna does not necessarily redarken completely, when lemon juice has been used, because not all of the chromophores have been repaired. I will note not to refer to the reaction as redox in the future. I have not heard of or read, that peroxide lightening of hair, has redarkened.

"Oxidizing bleaches .... break the molecules at the double bond. This results in either a shorter molecule that does not absorb visible light, or a molecule whose chromophore is either shorter or non-existant. A shorter chromophore will absorb light of a shorter wavelength than visible light .... and so does not appear colored.

Reducing bleaches such as lemon juice (in combination with sunlight) .... convert the double bonds in the chromophore into single bonds, eliminating its ability to absorb visible light. Sometimes the reaction is reversible, where oxygen in the air reacts with the molecule to repair the chromophore, and the stain returns.

.... most famous hair bleach is hydrogen peroxide (http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/hydrogen_peroxide.html) .... Unlike sunlight and lemon juice, peroxide is an oxidizing bleach .... its effects are less easily undone."
http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/bleach.html

[ktani]

Peroxide lightens both the natural pigment and the henna. How do we know, just by careful observation of the resulting color.

My hennaed hair went to dark golden yellow with very long peroxide soaks.

Now, my natural color has almost no yellow (it just turns white with peroxide without going through a yellow stage first, and it does this very quickly, too). So, the yellow can't come from my natural pigment.

Say that peroxide affected only my natural pigment, what would the resulting color have been? Well, it would look like henna over white hair, so, a bright brownish orange.

My hair didn't turn brownish orange though, it turned dark yellow. So, something must have happened to the henna, changing it from brownish orange to dark yellow.

I can't really say from looking at it whether peroxide affected my natural pigment under the henna. I just assume that it did, because I know how cowardly my natural pigment behaves in the face of peroxide. And it's not exactly like peroxide is a big molecule that wouldn't be able to go past lawsone. Peroxide is small.

According to this, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=459057&postcount=330, the yellow is not the colour of pigment but the natural colour of keratin in hair. The darkness of the yellow may be the result of some residual pigment.

[rymorg2]

Peroxide lightens both the natural pigment and the henna. How do we know, just by careful observation of the resulting color.

My hennaed hair went to dark golden yellow with very long peroxide soaks.

Now, my natural color has almost no yellow (it just turns white with peroxide without going through a yellow stage first, and it does this very quickly, too). So, the yellow can't come from my natural pigment.

iris, I don't know what your natural color is, but everyone's hair has natural yellow pigment in it as well as the natural yellow from the keratin in the hair. Even very light natural blondes.

The order that a bleach or other product will have to pull through is red, red/orange, orange, orange/yellow, and yellow. Darker hair has all of these, but a lot more red than medium tones, and the depth and level of the hair is what figures into what amounts are in the hair. Not all levels of color have all of these, but all will have that yellow. So your natural will have it, even if it doesn't look like it to the naked eye.

[ktani]

everyone's hair has natural yellow pigment in it as well as the natural yellow from the keratin in the hair. Even very light natural blondes.

The order that a bleach or other product will have to pull through is red, red/orange, orange, orange/yellow, and yellow. Darker hair has all of these, but a lot more red than medium tones, and the depth and level of the hair is what figures into what amounts are in the hair. Not all levels of color have all of these, but all will have that yellow. So your natural will have it, even if it doesn't look like it to the naked eye.

This is very interesting and goes very well with this, which I have posted in Honey. Thank you for the details.

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin are present in the hair. What determines the hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin"
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

[iris]

I will note not to refer to the reaction as redox in the future.
Well you can, it's correct, the thing is just that saying 'the reaction between lemon juice and lawsone is a redox reaction', while true, doesn't distinguish it from the reaction between peroxide and lawsone, since that is a redox reaction, too.

They're both redox reactions, the difference is in which 'end of the stick' the lawsone is on - in the lemon juice reaction the lawsone is reduced (and the vitamin C oxidized), and in the peroxide reaction the lawsone is oxidized (and the peroxide reduced).


iris, I don't know what your natural color is, but everyone's hair has natural yellow pigment in it as well as the natural yellow from the keratin in the hair.
A little bit, sure - I was just trying not to confuse things by adding endless nuances. My point was that my natural color has only very very little yellow, and that my natural pigment can't account for the HUGE amounts of yellow after peroxiding my hennaed hair.

My natural color is dark blond, or if you look at it just in terms of actual color, I'd say medium gray. Like I said, my natural pigment goes to white very easily and quickly with peroxide, with hardly an intermediate yellow stage. (There is barely the faintest hint of a very very light pastel cool yellow right before it turns white).

My point was, that the dark yellow that my hennaed hair became after peroxide (trying to find an analogy - the color of a ripe banana peel? the inside of a ripe pineapple? only dirtier), there is no way that all that yellow came from only my natural pigment, because my natural pigment has nowhere near that amount of yellow.

[ktani]

Well you can, it's correct, the thing is just that saying 'the reaction between lemon juice and lawsone is a redox reaction', while true, doesn't distinguish it from the reaction between peroxide and lawsone, since that is a redox reaction, too.
They're both redox reactions, the difference is in which 'end of the stick' the lawsone is on - in the lemon juice reaction the lawsone is reduced (and the vitamin C oxidized), and in the peroxide reaction the lawsone is oxidized (and the peroxide reduced). .... there is no way that all that yellow came from only my natural pigment, because my natural pigment has nowhere near that amount of yellow.


For me, both the scitoys and the chemistyabout explantions I posted, say it best, about how the reactions work and the results.

I think that most of the yellow in your hair left after peroxide is the from your keratin and the hard to describe tone is residual pigment.

[iris]

I think that most of the yellow in your hair left after peroxide is the from your keratin and the hard to describe tone is residual pigment.
The dirty tone could be residual pigment, my natural color is very dirty. It could also be trace amount of leftover indigo (I used to use indigo to tone down the henna orange). Or it could just be the color of the peroxided lawsone (quinones can end up sort of greenish when they have a lot of their bits chopped off). There's no way to know until we have more results from more people.

I find it very hard to believe that the yellow is just my keratin. We're talking about a VERY dark yellow here. Darker than my natural color. Really dark. Like ochre (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Colorado_proven%C3%A7al_2.jpg). Not a tone or a hint or a tad of it. Hair solidly that ochre color.

I don't have any pictures of that stage, because it was January and there was no light to photograph in. And I was for sure not going to let it be like that so that I could document it when the light would return. It was the ugliest, most unnatural hair color I've ever seen and it needed to be toned over ASAP.

[ktani]

The dirty tone could be residual pigment, my natural color is very dirty. It could also be trace amount of leftover indigo (I used to use indigo to tone down the henna orange). Or it could just be the color of the peroxided lawsone (quinones can end up sort of greenish when they have a lot of their bits chopped off). There's no way to know until we have more results from more people.

I find it very hard to believe that the yellow is just my keratin. We're talking about a VERY dark yellow here. Darker than my natural color. Really dark. Like ochre (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Colorado_proven%C3%A7al_2.jpg). Not a tone or a hint or a tad of it. Hair solidly that ochre color.

I don't have any pictures of that stage, because it was January and there was no light to photograph in. And I was for sure not going to let it be like that so that I could document it when the light would return. It was the ugliest, most unnatural hair color I've ever seen and it needed to be toned over ASAP.

Taking another look at this, now that I know what shade of yellow you are referring to, this post, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=463956&postcount=46), did not make what you say here, clear to me. The colour of a ripe banana peel to me, is a very different dark yellow. See #6 in this link, http://i12.tinypic.com/4qq74no.jpg. I do not buy raw pineapple but this, http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/webb/BOT201/Angiosperm/Fruits/PineappleFruLSMacro240.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/webb/BOT201/Angiosperm/FlowerFruit.htm&h=364&w=240&sz=24&tbnid=sY9kX52b2veTvM::&tbnh=121&tbnw=80&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dimage%2Bof%2Bthe%2Binside%2Bof%2Ba%2B ripe%2Bpineapple&hl=en&usg=__j_Y3Xm6UzLEHrMIkcID03wgOyi4=&ei=F0qYSYf2EYi6NNa2-JMM&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=3&ct=image&cd=1, would not be accurate from what you say here either, and "dirtier" did not make me think of ochre. If you scroll down in this link, http://www.colourlovers.com/blog/2008/12/04/prehistoric-color-ochre-sienna-umber/, your picture looks like what is called dark yellow ochre.

Hair keratin is a pale yellow in colour. The residual pigment, whatever the source, would account for the rest of the shade. The shade you describe here and from your picture (great visual), sound and look more like what is referred to in #2. (I added the numbers and put some of the text in bold, in the link below, that I posted earlier). If I remember correctly, you mentioned at some point somewhere, that your natural colour used to have some red in it.

But the colour may also have residual keratin bound lawsone, and trace indigo in it. I seem to remember you also mentioning, that after lightening, your hair had a green tinge to it. That sounds like residual indigo, based on the colour indigo has been reported to turn, when bleached. So far, no one else, who has lightened henna with conventional peroxide, either straight or in Sun-In, and not used indigo, has reported a green tint to their hair. So, most of that yellow IMO, would be from pigment, with a pale yellow base colour (from the keratin).

".... bleach reacts with the melanin in hair, removing the color in an irreversible chemical reaction. .... bleach oxidizes the melanin molecule. .... melanin is still present .... oxidized molecule is colorless. .... 1. bleached hair tends to have a pale yellow tint. The yellow color is the natural color of keratin .... structural protein in hair. .... bleach reacts 2. more readily with the dark eumelanin pigment than with the phaeomelanin, so some gold or red residual color may remain after lightening. Hydrogen peroxide is one of the most common lightening agents. .... peroxide is used in an alkaline solution, which opens the hair shaft to allow the peroxide to react with the melanin."
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa101203a.htm

[ktani]

Now, here is a thought.

Naturally white hair has no pigment.

I know that naturally white hair can pick up yellow from haircare products and the environment (including when one smokes).

But why doesn't naturally white hair have the pale yellow tint that shows the colour of natural keratin?

Or does it? And people just tend to use products that counter or mask that?

I think that I just answered my own question, lol.

Products for grey/white hair designed to remove environmental yellowing, no doubt add violet colouring that would mask the natural yellow in the hair from the keratin.

And here it is, red and blue = violet.

"Phytargent Whitening Shampoo, Gray and White"
Water (Agua), Sodium Laureth Sulfate (Botanical Origin), Magnesium Laureth Sulfate (Botanical Origin), Cocamidopropyl Betaine (Botanical Origin), PEG 150 Distearate, Laneth 10 Acetate, Polyquaternium 10 (Botanical Origin), Guaiazulene (Botanical Origin), Fragrance (Parfum), Phenoxyethanol (Preservative), Parabens (Ethyl, Butyl, Methyl, Propyl) (Preservative), Imidazolidinyl Urea (Preservative), Citric Acid, Basic Red 76 (Cl 12245), Basic Blue 99 (Cl 56059) "
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=49896&catid=49627

[rymorg2]

Now, here is a thought.

Naturally white hair has no pigment.

I know that naturally white hair can pick up yellow from haircare products and the environment (including when one smokes).

But why doesn't naturally white hair have the pale yellow tint that shows the colour of natural keratin?

Or does it? And people just tend to use products that counter or mask that?

I think that I just answered my own question, lol.

Products for grey/white hair designed to remove environmental yellowing, no doubt add violet colouring that would mask the natural yellow in the hair from the keratin.

And here it is, red and blue = violet.

"Phytargent Whitening Shampoo, Gray and White"
Water (Agua), Sodium Laureth Sulfate (Botanical Origin), Magnesium Laureth Sulfate (Botanical Origin), Cocamidopropyl Betaine (Botanical Origin), PEG 150 Distearate, Laneth 10 Acetate, Polyquaternium 10 (Botanical Origin), Guaiazulene (Botanical Origin), Fragrance (Parfum), Phenoxyethanol (Preservative), Parabens (Ethyl, Butyl, Methyl, Propyl) (Preservative), Imidazolidinyl Urea (Preservative), Citric Acid, Basic Red 76 (Cl 12245), Basic Blue 99 (Cl 56059) "
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=49896&catid=49627


While I'm not 100% certain on this....I believe you are probably right about the keratin and the products.

Most people that come into the salon with grey hair complain about the brassiness of it. Most of them DO have a yellowish tinge to the majority of their gray. And most do use products to counteract it, or just don't care about it.

I'm wondering too, if those with say less than 50% grey, or 50-75% grey, if theirs is yellowish but since it is next to more darker toned hair you just can't see it.

[ktani]

While I'm not 100% certain on this....I believe you are probably right about the keratin and the products.

Most people that come into the salon with grey hair complain about the brassiness of it. Most of them DO have a yellowish tinge to the majority of their gray. And most do use products to counteract it, or just don't care about it.

I'm wondering too, if those with say less than 50% grey, or 50-75% grey, if theirs is yellowish but since it is next to more darker toned hair you just can't see it.

I have been wondering the same thing.

[ktani]

Rini had a journal called From Rini Red to Bottle Blonde in the archives. She had bleach and shampoo done, and foils and used conventional colour as well as semis to tone her hair, to get back to blonde. The henna colour hangs in there, even at the lightest shades, but she eventually did it, with some damage. You have to log out of here and log in there to read it, if you have enough posts, to be able to read journals. See page 52 onward.

[Nightshade]

That makes sense Iris, thank you!

For me it's hard to tell as on brown hair + peroxide= reddish gold, and my henna is reddish gold :lol:

[MeMyselfandI]

That makes sense Iris, thank you!

For me it's hard to tell as on brown hair + peroxide= reddish gold, and my henna is reddish gold :lol:

Nightshade,

Is the reddish gold henna colour from the moroccan henna with the cassia or just the moroccan henna or all all henna's.

[MeMyselfandI]

Now, here is a thought.

Naturally white hair has no pigment.

I know that naturally white hair can pick up yellow from haircare products and the environment (including when one smokes).

But why doesn't naturally white hair have the pale yellow tint that shows the colour of natural keratin?

Or does it? And people just tend to use products that counter or mask that?

I think that I just answered my own question, lol.

Products for grey/white hair designed to remove environmental yellowing, no doubt add violet colouring that would mask the natural yellow in the hair from the keratin.

And here it is, red and blue = violet.

"Phytargent Whitening Shampoo, Gray and White"
Water (Agua), Sodium Laureth Sulfate (Botanical Origin), Magnesium Laureth Sulfate (Botanical Origin), Cocamidopropyl Betaine (Botanical Origin), PEG 150 Distearate, Laneth 10 Acetate, Polyquaternium 10 (Botanical Origin), Guaiazulene (Botanical Origin), Fragrance (Parfum), Phenoxyethanol (Preservative), Parabens (Ethyl, Butyl, Methyl, Propyl) (Preservative), Imidazolidinyl Urea (Preservative), Citric Acid, Basic Red 76 (Cl 12245), Basic Blue 99 (Cl 56059) "
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=49896&catid=49627

ktani,

Some thoughts and questions.

Does keratin leave the hair when it is grey/white. Which I would think yes if hair looks white. I think white hair is also void of keratin. I have noticed people who were natural blonds that the grey is more tinged yellow and takes longer to get to white. I have wondered if the darker haired people who show white instead of yellowish white, is because they did not have as much keratin maybe. Just thinking out loud.


I think that "blueing" agents give the illusion of more white hair like blueing agents when doing white laundry. I thought they work on the principle of reflecting all light (colour) to look more white? (I thought they looked more white in the sun???)

ktani, the mention of smoking and grey hair brought back memories of chain smokers and yellow hair in areas and white/white&black in other areas.

I have a natural red pigmentation in my hair. I used to have yellow, gold and red strands of hair in my light brown. When I started to colour my hair the red pigmentation came made dyes look red. This was very apparent when I used the Natural Match dyes. They looked as if I had used the Red dyes. I remember thinking of using a NO Red compound to dye my hair. Well I turned to henna instead.

When I bleached my hair, it went orange. It took extra bleach to get it to the yellow stage. I think this is when the red was destroyed or whatever happened.

[Nightshade]

Nightshade,

Is the reddish gold henna colour from the moroccan henna with the cassia or just the moroccan henna or all all henna's.

In the henna strand tests I did moroccan came up the lightest for me in general, however, the biggest factor by far is that I dilute the henna with cassia, 65% cassia and 35% henna. :)

[MeMyselfandI]

In the henna strand tests I did moroccan came up the lightest for me in general, however, the biggest factor by far is that I dilute the henna with cassia, 65% cassia and 35% henna. :)

Thanks Nightshade.

Does the Moroccan henna have staying power in your hair compared to other henna?

I found the Moroccan henna being different then all the other hennas I used. (Yemen, Rajasthani, Jamilia, Syrian, Iranina and various mixtures of these hennas) it made my hair look more brown, not orange or red. I regret not buying more of it last summer after I first used it.

Well I am so happy I finally bought 2 kg of it from Hennasooq. It came in really fast. Now I need the patience to wait while I try to rid my hair of the red and lighten my hair before I start using the Moroccan henna.

[ktani]

ktani,

Some thoughts and questions.

1. Does keratin leave the hair when it is grey/white. Which I would think yes if hair looks white. I think white hair is also void of keratin. I have noticed people who were natural blonds that the grey is more tinged yellow and takes longer to get to white. I have wondered if the darker haired people who show white instead of yellowish white, is because they did not have as much keratin maybe. Just thinking out loud.


2. I think that "blueing" agents give the illusion of more white hair like blueing agents when doing white laundry. I thought they work on the principle of reflecting all light (colour) to look more white? (I thought they looked more white in the sun???)

3. ktani, the mention of smoking and grey hair brought back memories of chain smokers and yellow hair in areas and white/white&black in other areas.

4. I have a natural red pigmentation in my hair. I used to have yellow, gold and red strands of hair in my light brown. When I started to colour my hair the red pigmentation came made dyes look red. This was very apparent when I used the Natural Match dyes. They looked as if I had used the Red dyes. I remember thinking of using a NO Red compound to dye my hair. Well I turned to henna instead.

5. When I bleached my hair, it went orange. It took extra bleach to get it to the yellow stage. I think this is when the red was destroyed or whatever happened.

1. That does not make sense to me after thinking it through, since the hair is not damaged, only lacking pigment and my grey/white hair for example, is strong and damage free in terms of split ends and breakage. They are 2 separate things, to me, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=457524&postcount=326.

I found this article, last year.
".... report posted in the journal Science by the Boston-based Dana-Farber Cancer Institute traces the loss of hair colour to the gradual dying off of adult stem cells, called melanocytes, that provide a reservoir for the renewal of pigment-manufacturing cells."
http://www.health24.com/news/Skin_Hair/1-945,39882.asp (http://www.health24.com/news/Skin_Hair/1-945,39882.asp)

2. That is exactly how they work. By making light reflect differently, the yellow colour is masked, not removed.

3. Smoking can contribute more of a yellow but that is a stain. The areas with mixed colour, still have pigment remaining in the hair shaft.

4. The peroxide in conventional hair colour reacts with the pigment in the hair and some colours can become more apparent.

".... bleach reacts more readily with the dark eumelanin pigment than with the phaeomelanin, so some gold or red residual color may remain after lightening."
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa101203a.htm

5. That yellow stage is when there is no pigment left and the yellow colour comes from the keratin only.

".... bleach reacts with the melanin in hair, removing the color in an irreversible chemical reaction. .... bleach oxidizes the melanin molecule. .... bleached hair tends to have a pale yellow tint. .... yellow color is the natural color of keratin .... structural protein in hair."
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa101203a.htm

[lora410]

I use Aveda detoxifier shampoo that is supposed to remove chlorine and stuff but it never removed my henna. I would assume this is in the same category. I believe they call it cleating shampoo if I am correct.

[ktani]

I use Aveda detoxifier shampoo that is supposed to remove chlorine and stuff but it never removed my henna. I would assume this is in the same category. I believe they call it cleating shampoo if I am correct.

Chelators remove metalic salts from the hair. Not all detoxifying or clarifying shampoos contain chelators but many do and many shampoos not designed to remove buid-up, contain them too. Detoxifying shampoos can but do not usally, contain colour additives to deal with things like brassiness, caused by oxidized hair colour pigment.

They will however, remove coatings or stains from the environment or other haircare products. Because they are designed to remove build-up, they can remove colour added to the natural yellow colour in grey/white hair, from things like smoking.

[Nightshade]

Thanks Nightshade.

Does the Moroccan henna have staying power in your hair compared to other henna?

I found the Moroccan henna being different then all the other hennas I used. (Yemen, Rajasthani, Jamilia, Syrian, Iranina and various mixtures of these hennas) it made my hair look more brown, not orange or red. I regret not buying more of it last summer after I first used it.

Well I am so happy I finally bought 2 kg of it from Hennasooq. It came in really fast. Now I need the patience to wait while I try to rid my hair of the red and lighten my hair before I start using the Moroccan henna.

It's not really a fair comparison, I guess, because I've only used moroccan on its own on strand tests, though there it stays just fine. Diluting henna into cassia does tend to make it fade for me, at least on the first application. After the second it's color fast.

I find it's much warmer than the Rajastani or the Prabada I've used in the past. I've also done cassia blends with Jamila, which I liked, but have really come to love the Moroccan.

[MeMyselfandI]

Ktani -- Thanks for the response and the links. I will look at them tomorrow.

Nightshade -- Thanks for the info.

[ktani]

Ktani -- Thanks for the response and the links. I will look at them tomorrow.

You are most welcome!

[ktani]

Ktani -- Thanks for the response and the links. I will look at them tomorrow.

Here is another article for you, which explains the difference in the relationship between pigment and keratin in hair.

"Initially, hair is white. It gets its natural color from .... pigment called melanin.
.... hair is being formed, melanocytes inject pigment (melanin) into cells containing keratin. Keratin is the protein that makes up our hair, skin, and nails. .... With age comes a reduction of melanin. The hair turns gray and eventually white."
http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/grayhair.html

and with the other article, I posted earlier, that describes the natural colour of the keratin, which is not caused by the melanin. Naturally white hair is not "truly white", with keratin in hair being pale yellow.

" .... yellow color is the natural color of keratin .... structural protein in hair."
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthi.../aa101203a.htm

Also, explained here

"Strongly bleached hair looks yellowish, because keratin itself is naturally pale yellow. This natural color is the reason why an elderly person's white hair looks slightly yellow at the roots ..... also explains why repeatedly bleached hair looks the color of nicotine-stained skin. It needs to be tinted as well as bleached if it is to be turned white or a 'platinum' blond."
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/coloring-hair.html

[quendelyn]

Hi Ladies,
I must say, you girls have been working hard at this. I'mm 55 and have been using henna on my hair since I was 25. Anyway, there were a few times I wanted to lighten the henna. And I used Shout Foam Stain remover applied to dry hair, used with a heat cap, checking every ten minutes. I shampooed and conditioned afterwards. Yes I know chemicals. Didn't hurt my hair and didn't alter natural color. After much research I found that yes, straight peroxide does work. But alters the natural color. I found this out when I wanted to completely remove the henna and grow my hair out. So does Luminize by Clariol. My hair is naturally Very light red, Boring Strawberry. Hehe. Anyway I'm back to using henna. And I left it on too long and it got very dark. Used the Ion Clarifying Crystals this time, because I didn't want all the henna gone. Like how it made my hair feel and lightened the henna up. This was the day after fresh hennaed hair. Hope this helps.
With respect, Gwen

[diverbel]

Hi Ladies,
I must say, you girls have been working hard at this. I'mm 55 and have been using henna on my hair since I was 25. Anyway, there were a few times I wanted to lighten the henna. And I used Shout Foam Stasin remover. Yes I know chemicals. Didn't hurt my hair and didn't alter natural color. Used it with heat After much research I found that yes, straight peroxide does work. But alters the natural color. I found this out When I wanted to completely remove the henna and grow my hair out. So does Luminize by Clariol. My hair is naturally Very ligh red. Boring Strawberry. Hehe. Anyway I'm back to using henna. And I left it on too long. Used the Ion Larifying Crystals, because I didn't want all the henna gone. Like how it made my hair feel. Hope this helps.
With respect, Gwen

Can you please give me more info on using the shout stain foam remover? My hair is naturally dark brown with white temples and the rest about 35 to 40% gray mixed in. I have used henna since May of this year. Once with indigo, and then about three times with buxus(katam). My hair is now looking very burgundy and I want to either strip all the henna out and start over correctly or atleast seriously lighten it and start over. I really don't want to use bleach as I just got my hair healthy again! It doesn't matter if it comes out brassy orange as I am going to immediately put henna on it afterwards. Thanks for any info and help that can be offered! :D

[quendelyn]

Hi Ladies,
I must say, you girls have been working hard at this. I'mm 55 and have been using henna on my hair since I was 25. Anyway, there were a few times I wanted to lighten the henna. And I used Shout Foam Stain remover. Yes I know chemicals. Didn't hurt my hair and didn't alter natural color. Used it with heat cap. Checking every 10 minutes. After much research I found that yes, straight peroxide does work. But alters the natural color. I found this out when I wanted to completely remove the henna and grow my hair out. So does Luminize by Clariol. My hair is naturally Very light red, Boring Strawberry. Hehe. Anyway I'm back to using henna. And I left it on too long. Used the Ion Clarifying Crystals, because I didn't want all the henna gone, and it did take out some of the color. But this was on freshly hennaed hair, used the day after. Like how it made my hair feel. Hope this helps.
With respect, Gwen
I edited the above to include more info since I couldn’t find a way to edit original post.