Henna help and Cassia Confusion

[Jeni]

Hi! This is actually my first post here, finally decided to register instead of just lurk.... Anyway onto my questions. WARNING- I tend to ramble, so sorry in advance for the novel.

A few weeks ago I ordered some new henna from (I have been playing around with henna tattoos) mehandi.com and while I was there I picked up a sample of cassia from H4H. I have heard such great things about cassia and figured i should try it.

When I was younger I had white blond hair. I'm not real sure what my natural color is at this point, but last time I could tell it was dark blond/dishwater blond. I hate it, its neither blond nor brunet, it's just boring and blah. So I dye it. I have dyed it many different colors in the 12 years I have been dyeing my hair, but most of the time it's blond (a light/med ash blond). I am trying to grow my hair out, and after lurking on this forum for awhile I have completely changed the way I handle my hair. I have gone to washing my hair every 2-3 days instead of everyday, and have discovered the wonders of coconut oil. Bit I digress, this is not the post about my new hair care regime.

So in my attempt to treat my hair better I would like to find a way to color my hair without chemical dyes. I decided to do some experiments with henna and cassia. I had recently cleaned out one of my hairbrushes, so I only had enough "brush hair" for one test so I decided to do 2 tests on a small chunk of hair on the back of my head (can be seen if hair is down, and not super noticeable when its up). So in bowl 1-100% henna mixed with tea and water, bowl 2-50% henna and 50%cassia, mixed with tea and water, and bowl 3-100% cassia, mixed with tea and water. I left them all in the same place covered for a few hours (I wanted to see if I could get a color from cassia). I put the brush hair in the 100% henna, and divided the back hair into 2 parts, putting the 50/50 on the left and 100% cassia on the right. I wrapped everything up and waited for 3.5-4 hours.

First I rinsed the 100% henna, the henna came out of the hair wonderfully, and was Lucille Ball/Queen Elizabeth red/orange ans I expected. My mother then rinsed out the 100% cassia, came out of the hair very well. She said it looked red, so I thought maybe i messed up and the 100% cassia was on the other side, so we rinsed the left side (50/50) which was also red. So then we waited, thinking maybe when dryed the color would change, it didn't.

The side with 100% cassia is red, slightly, very slightly, lighter then the 50/50, but still very much henna red. I'm confused, why is my hair red? All 3 samples came out pretty close to the same color... Could it of been the tea? If so, you totally don't need henna to get the color, just use the tea I have! Has anyone ever gotten red from cassia before?!

I love the feeling of my hair, its so soft and silky, but the red orange is not a very good color for me.... I was thinking of getting some alma, and indigo samples and try and see if I can get a cooler color. Anyone hear look better in cooler colors and still use henna/cassia/indigo/alma?

OK so I have written a freaking novel.....sorry about that. Any help y'all can offer me would be great.

Jeni

Oh one more question. I know you can dye over henna, meaning your hair wont turn frog butt green, but can you really? I am pretty brave when it comes to hair color, but I don't know if I want to be stuck as a red head for ever, if I got sick of it, will chemical hair dyes (that arnt super dark brown or black) really dye over hennaed hair?

[akurah]

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE REAL HENNA IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS WHATSOEVER ABOUT BEING A REDHEAD. I cannot emphasis this enough.

Cassia shouldn't dye red, it imparts a faint yellow dye. I'm wondering about your cassia samples if it turned red... may have been the tea.

[Jeni]

That's what I'm wondering. I'm kind of surprised tea could dye hair the same color as henna though. I think I'll try it again with just water. If it still turns red, I will caulk it up to my hair being a freak. (my hair does love to go red, which is why I dye it ask blond, if I use a warm/golden or even neutral blond I turn strawberry....maybe my hair is trying to tell me something?)

So has no one ever dyed over henna? How do you commit to a color like that? I'm only 25, I don't think I can make that much a commitment! Even if I love the hair color, not sure I want it for the rest of my life......which should be at least 50-60 years.
Jeni

[prosperina]

Hi Jeni,
First welcome. :flowers:
Sounds like your natural hair color is similar to mine. Do you have bleach under your henna? That *could* make your hair stubbornly orange...but it seems like you have a nice red. Cassia isn't a very strong dye at all. It will cut the henna a bit, but it should not be thought of as a natural blond dye because there is no such thing as a natural blond dye--they are blond enhancing herbs, but not dyes. I'm not sure I understand what you're asking exactly. :) But quite simply your hair is red because you put red plant dye in it.

[akurah]

So has no one ever dyed over henna? How do you commit to a color like that? I'm only 25, I don't think I can make that much a commitment! Even if I love the hair color, not sure I want it for the rest of my life......which should be at least 50-60 years.
Jeni

Henna is usually left to grow out or it is bleached out. The former is less damaging, and with the latter, you usually have to bleach it quite a bit and be prepared for quite a bit of damage.

[Jeni]

Hi Jeni,
First welcome. :flowers:
Sounds like your natural hair color is similar to mine. Do you have bleach under your henna? That *could* make your hair stubbornly orange...but it seems like you have a nice red. Cassia isn't a very strong dye at all. It will cut the henna a bit, but it should not be thought of as a natural blond dye because there is no such thing as a natural blond dye--they are blond enhancing herbs, but not dyes. I'm not sure I understand what you're asking exactly. :) But quite simply your hair is red because you put red plant dye in it.

Nope no bleach, just reg blond dye. I knew cassia isn't a strong dye, just wondered what would happen if mixed with henna. Its not that I am looking for a blond dye really, just a color that looks good on me. I love red hair, have dyed it red in the past. I'm just not sure if the color of straight henna is a good one for me, which is why i may see what I get from mixing alma and/or indigo with henna.

Well first question Im asking is-Why is cassia turning my hair red, the same red henna turns it....If it gave me any color it should be a yellowy/gold color, not henna red.

Second question- I know henna turns hair red, and only red, but when mixed with other herbs you can get other colors. Has anyone mixed henna with alma and gotten a cooler red, or henna, indigo and alma to get a cooler red brown?

The first question is the one I am most confused about, I can always "play" with different mixes on brush hair.

Jeni

[prosperina]

First, I'm not sure what you mean by regular blond dye. Since in my book that is the same as bleach. i.e. chemical color.

I imagine you accidentally put henna on your head instead of cassia. The tea would not be so strong to make your hair that red.

A lot of people use indigo and henna and alma to get different colors. If you want a cooler red, you can just henna again as the color will move from orange--orange/red---red--burgundy--wine colored--red/purple depending upon how many applications you have done. Someone even uses Manic Panic blood red (I forget who) to cut the henna orange.

[MeMyselfandI]

Welcome Jeni,

Colorfix has removed henna.

[Jeni]

First, I'm not sure what you mean by regular blond dye. Since in my book that is the same as bleach. i.e. chemical color.

I imagine you accidentally put henna on your head instead of cassia. The tea would not be so strong to make your hair that red.

A lot of people use indigo and henna and alma to get different colors. If you want a cooler red, you can just henna again as the color will move from orange--orange/red---red--burgundy--wine colored--red/purple depending upon how many applications you have done. Someone even uses Manic Panic blood red (I forget who) to cut the henna orange.

OK to me there is a difference, I have used both in the past, bleach bleached my hair out to white, and completely killed my hair, nothing helped it, so I ended up cutting it off. Blond hair dye, doesn't mess my hair up, and after I dye it, my hair is soft and shiny. So to me there is a BIG difference.

The cassia I used was in a bag labeled Cassia Obovata (or how ever it's spelled), so the only way it was henna would be if it was misslabeled at the company, which I suppose is completely possible. What does cassia smell like?

I think I will order some new cassia, mix it with water and try it again. If the hair ends up red again, I have no clue.

I think I may try and redye the henna hair with more henna and see what color I get then. YAY experimentation!!

Jeni

[Nightshade]

It's easy to mix up strand tests or even cross-contaminate them with mixing instruments :)

I would reorder (perhaps from another supplier) the cassia and test again. Until then, please don't put anything on your hair.

Oh, and welcome to LHC, I'm glad you de-lurked :flowers:

ETA: Check out the henna article in my siggy, there's lots of pics in there of amla/henna/cassia/indigo blends down further.

[Nightshade]

Welcome Jeni,

Colorfix has removed henna.

Permanently? Every case I've seen it lightens it, but then over time it redarkens to it's original henna red. If you have a link to someone that pulled it off long-term I'd be very interested.

[akurah]

Permanently? Every case I've seen it lightens it, but then over time it redarkens to it's original henna red. If you have a link to someone that pulled it off long-term I'd be very interested.

I would vote no. I've used a similar product, "Color Oops!", a peroxide and ammonia free thingy, out of curiousity on my henna'd hair.

My hair lightened a smidge. Turned a bit browner than before, making it look a more realistic red than what my hair actually looks like (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=542&pictureid=5522).

I suspect in a few days it'll be quite purply red again as it re-oxidizes. Plus with my next henna I think I'm going to add a bit of Manic Panic's "Deadly Nightshade" to push the purple more.

[iris]

Colorfix has removed henna.
Like Nightshade said, I've read lots of account of people trying to remove henna with colorfix, but none for whom it actually worked long-term. Colorfix seems to just temporarily change henna to an invisible form. The henna changes back to its visible form through oxidation. It doesn't really take the henna out.

It's possible to take henna out right after dyeing, within the first 24 hours or so, but after that, it's bound to the hair and there's no getting it out.

Jeni, please don't henna if you have a problem with the orange tones. I wasted five years of my life trying to counter those orange tones, and I was never really happy with it. Spent a year on trying to get the henna out and/or dyeing over it. Nothing really worked. I'll have to grow it out. I don't have the energy now to recount the whole story, but that's the bottom line - just don't do it unless you're absolutely sure you love the color and want to keep it forever.


The cassia I used was in a bag labeled Cassia Obovata (or how ever it's spelled), so the only way it was henna would be if it was misslabeled at the company, which I suppose is completely possible.
Yeah - it wouldn't be the first time, either.

I don't smell a big difference between cassia and henna, but I know some people do so maybe they'll be able to explain the difference?

Iris

[prosperina]

I've always thought the color was different too. Cassia is more green, and henna is more green brown. They also look different mixed up--slightly different colors of brown. (Can't remember how different the brown is atm since I don't usually mix them separately). Cassia smells like freshly cut grass and henna....well... henna has that distinctive henna smell? :confused: Sorry. I know the difference, and I'm sure I'd be able to pick it out if it weren't labeled, but I can't explain it.

ETA: Aha! Cassia looks greenish like...well, I can only say baby sh*t green, and henna is more brown.

[Jeni]

Nightshade- I was very careful, 3 separate bowl, 3 different spoons. I'm leaning to it being misslabeled. I read your henna post on the different colors, very cool!

Both henna and cassia were green in powder form, the henna turned brown after 4 hours, the "cassia" turned greeny brown. Who knows what happened. I'm ordering more samples and will try different combos on harvested hair from my brushes.

So henna is the hair dye that never dies. You cant remove it, can you dye over it? Like dark dark brown or black (I have no plan to, just wondering)

Iris- yea I think I may have to give up the idea to henna. It sucks that henna left my hair so nice! The too strips of hair by my neck are the nicest of my hair! Yes I have too orange/red stripes, I kind of like them, they make my bun stripey!! I actually kind of like the color, just not enough to live with it for the rest of my life! I don't like any color enough. How do you henna heads do it?

Anyway, thanks for the help. Cross your fingers the new cassia (and plain water, not taking any chances) works! My hope is the cassia, and maybe some other herbs or honey, will make my natural color not so dull, and then I could just grow my hair out....If not, it should at least make it shiner.

Jeni

[MeMyselfandI]

Permanently? Every case I've seen it lightens it, but then over time it redarkens to it's original henna red. If you have a link to someone that pulled it off long-term I'd be very interested.

Nightshade - I would not know about it being permanently or not. Other things usually went on top. Thanks for the info.

Jeni - Good think you did a strand test.

It is not the first time that I have read that cassia gives a bit of a henna colour. I wonder if there was any henna molecules in the cassia.

Unless the cassia and cassia/henna mixture were heated of a couple of hours or let to stand for half a day, would the cassia dye even released to give the lighter cassia colour.

What tea did you use Jeni?

As for smell:

I found Cassia smells like some type of greens when boiled. Maybe collard or dandilion etc. I could not place my finger on it.

Henna smells like hay. More of a country smell.

I found the cassia to have a ligher green colour.

Not all henna powders are the exact same colour. When I poured the Yeman and Indian in a ziplock bag, the two layers were very noticable.

Here are some links with pictures and info with various ratios of henna, cassia, indigo and amla.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=7

Tea and other herbs:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=2

[MeMyselfandI]

Jeni,

It is not how we henna heads do it.

A hair colour is ok to good or does nothing or terrible, etc.

If a colour is bad for some then it is not the right thing to use, even for henna.

I wish you luck.

[prosperina]

How do you henna heads do it?

Um...I really like my color. :D I mean it's not like I wake up and say "Oh damn. How am I gonna handle this red hair today?" Usually it's like: "Whoo hoo! My hair is red and it has an otherworldly sparkle in the sun! Now how should I style it today?"

No color is for life. Hair grows, and most people change their color several times throughout their life. Even your natural color isn't for your whole life.

[iris]

So henna is the hair dye that never dies. You cant remove it, can you dye over it? Like dark dark brown or black (I have no plan to, just wondering)
Sure, that should work. It's just that then you're stuck with dark brown or black ;). But you can dye over it, yes.

Henna also fades over time on some people. But you can't count on it.

There are lots of herbal things you can try to spice your natural color up a bit (subtly) that are not permanent. Tea rinses and such. We kinda lost the history of the boards with the crash (it will come back though), but right now a good thread about tea rinses for color is here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=631).


Not all henna powders are the exact same colour. When I poured the Yeman and Indian in a ziplock bag, the two layers were very noticable.

True, good point. They also don't all look the same when they're releasing dye.

Iris

[MeMyselfandI]

Jeni,

Henna can be used over hair dye and henna can be dyed over.

The big caution is what dyes were used in the past. If metals were a part of the chemical dyes or henna compound dyes that were ever used on existing hair, then caution and strand testing need to be done.

[Jeni]

Um...I really like my color. :D I mean it's not like I wake up and say "Oh damn. How am I gonna handle this red hair today?" Usually it's like: "Whoo hoo! My hair is red and it has an otherworldly sparkle in the sun! Now how should I style it today?"



Jeni,

It is not how we henna heads do it.

A hair colour is ok to good or does nothing or terrible, etc.

If a colour is bad for some then it is not the right thing to use, even for henna.

I wish you luck.

I didn't mean how do y'all deal with having red hair. I meant how do people deal with not being able to change our hair color at will ( I would say the same thing to blonds, and brunets). For example you cant just decide you don't want red hair anymore, and go out and dye it another color (well at least not a light color), you have to grow it out. In the past I have dyed my hair brown one month and then red the next, then blue the next month. Only in the last 5 years have I stayed blond. Didn't mean to offend anyone, sorry.

I had been under the impression (not anymore) that as long as it was BAQ henna I could dye over it (blond) if I got sick of red. I now know otherwise. Glad I didn't jump in and dye my whole head instead of doing test strips (I have never ever done a test strip before). Guess I will just have to stay envious of yalls pretty red hair. :)

Iris- I'm looking at the herbal rinses, may try them.

MemyselfandI- So you have heard of people getting a red tint from cassia? Like I said the supposed 100% cassia, was the lightest of the 3, but still very much in the red category. The cassia, and cassia/henna mix were left in a warm spot for a few hours. I wanted to see what kind of color cassia would leave on my hair (not sure if it's light enough or not). Not sure what kind of tea it was (I'm not at home). It was organic, I think it was a mix with chamomile(?). Wonder what would of happened if I used the red zinger.....?:D

Jeni

[iris]

I dunno, I don't really have that desire to change my hair color all the time. I prefer not dyeing it at all, because when you don't dye it at all, it's just the color it is and that's that. I think I wouldn't have obsessed about my undesirable henna color the way I did, if it would grow out of my head that way. It's because I made it that color that I felt I should have a choice in getting rid of it. With my natural color I'm a lot more accepting.

I'm just not really the type of person who likes to have a lot of options :D. Because then you have to make decisions. I'm not very decisive by nature.

Maybe you could just use the types of dye that stick around for only 6-8 washes? They're not damaging and you can change your color all the time with them. Like nail polish :D

Iris

[prosperina]

I wasn't offended. Just trying to explain. :) I think you just have to find a color you like and that you want to stick with. It's fun to be able to change your color a lot, so if you're not willing to give that up yet, then you know henna is not for you yet. Also, once it's on your head and you know you can't change it, if you didn't already like it, you start to. You know lemons, lemonade. :)

[Jeni]

I dunno, I don't really have that desire to change my hair color all the time. I prefer not dyeing it at all, because when you don't dye it at all, it's just the color it is and that's that. I think I wouldn't have obsessed about my undesirable henna color the way I did, if it would grow out of my head that way. It's because I made it that color that I felt I should have a choice in getting rid of it. With my natural color I'm a lot more accepting.

I'm just not really the type of person who likes to have a lot of options :D. Because then you have to make decisions. I'm not very decisive by nature.

Maybe you could just use the types of dye that stick around for only 6-8 washes? They're not damaging and you can change your color all the time with them. Like nail polish :D

Iris

I guess my biggest thing is with the hair dye I use now I know I can go out and dye it a completely different color tomorrow if I want. I may never dye my hair a different color, but the fact that I know I could if I wanted to is comforting. If I was told that I would be stuck with this color until I grew it out, I'd freak, and I know this color looks good on me. I am very brave when it comes to hair color as long as I know I can go out and dye over it if I look horrid. I am lucky I guess, even after all the dying I have done, my hair is still soft, smooth and shiny, and I have never found a split end. Of course now that I have said this the next time I dye my hair it will fry to bits....

Jeni

[Rae~]

Jeni, when you say "dye over it with blond", that sounds weird to me as I use the the term 'dye over' to mean purely adding another layer of colour, so essentially going to a darker shade. You cannot "dye over" with blond as that would require going lighter, and you cannot do that without some form of bleach. So when people ask "have you used bleach", then yes, you have if you've lightened your hair. We don't mean, have you stuck your head in a bucket of 100% pure bleach or anything. :lol:

Note: I realise that there are exceptions - ways to lighten your hair without bleach as well, namely honey or whatever that has worked for some people - but I'm talking as a rule of thumb.

But anyway, it sounds like henna is definitely not your cup of tea, and cassia certainly shouldn't have given you any "red" tint. Good luck with the next batch of cassia. :)

[Jeni]

Jeni, when you say "dye over it with blond", that sounds weird to me as I use the the term 'dye over' to mean purely adding another layer of colour, so essentially going to a darker shade. You cannot "dye over" with blond as that would require going lighter, and you cannot do that without some form of bleach. So when people ask "have you used bleach", then yes, you have if you've lightened your hair. We don't mean, have you stuck your head in a bucket of 100% pure bleach or anything. :lol:

Note: I realise that there are exceptions - ways to lighten your hair without bleach as well, namely honey or whatever that has worked for some people - but I'm talking as a rule of thumb.

But anyway, it sounds like henna is definitely not your cup of tea, and cassia certainly shouldn't have given you any "red" tint. Good luck with the next batch of cassia. :)

I guess in that way you are right, the only way to lighten hair (dramatically) is with bleach/peroxide. When someone says "do you bleach your hair" I take to mean using hair bleach. I'm sure everyone has seen it in stores, it doesn't really turn you blond as much as bleach all the color out of your hair, turning it white, or yellow if your hair is dark. Compare that to blond hair dye, which dyes your hair an actual blond color (ash, golden, etc). I have used bleach before when I used manic panic fire engine red and was sick of it (reg blond dye wasn't cutting it). I bleached it, making it a light yellow, then dyed over that turning it a med blond. Hair bleach left my hair feeling like straw, before I ever got to the reg dye. When I use blond hair dye my hair feels nice and silky. So yes I'm sure it does bleach it somewhat, but, to me at least, there is a difference. Sorry for the confusion

Jeni

[iris]

I guess my biggest thing is with the hair dye I use now I know I can go out and dye it a completely different color tomorrow if I want. I may never dye my hair a different color, but the fact that I know I could if I wanted to is comforting.
That makes perfect sense.

For me, comfort lies in knowing that a dye will wash out and just leave me with my own color, which requires no upkeep etc. 'They' told me henna would do just that - unfortunately 'they' lied, but that's my general ideal for a haircolor - one that will go without leaving a trace.

Iris

[Lexie]

Colorfix worked for me. And for the others I remember it working for...we all had chemical processes done before or between hennaings. So perhaps the chemicals affect the way that henna bonds with our hair. Not sure. It completely removed both henna and indigo and I sported blond (one shade darker than platinum) for some weeks until the very dark roots were becoming too noticeable. Then I hennaed again.

I wasn't trying to remove henna at any point, but straight 30V peroxide also removed the majority of it for me on virgin, hennaed hair. Also wasn't even slightly as damaging as bleach.

Mind you, I wouldn't say either will definitely work for anyone. They're worth a shot in the end because they're really not that damaging, but if you don't think you can live with the red, just don't henna. And cassia will usually give a light golden dye. Sometimes it may be on the brassy side, but I've never heard of it being even nearly as orange/red as henna. So I'd also recommend a different source.

[prosperina]

I hate to argue, but "regular blond hair dye" has bleach and bleaching agents in it. I bleached my hair with 'regular blond hair dye' for ten years. You're right it is slightly different than bleach used with manic panic since that just lightens/strips color, but regular blond hair dye like all commercial hair dyes whether from the salon or the grocery store strip color then add its own color into your hair. There is always a bleaching/lightening/ color lifting process occurring. Furthermore, the color in 'regular blond hair dye' will vary depending upon what color your original hair color is. For instance, ash always gave me golden blond, as did every other color of blond. I will say though that I think salon bleach/blond hair dye is superior to supermarket stuff. Salon stuff didn't damage my hair nearly as much. But don't think you aren't bleaching/lifting color here, because you are. I don't know of any deposit only blond hair dyes.

[spidermom]

I know that we have at least one member who dyed brunette over henna and is happy with the result.

All blonde dyes contain bleach or peroxide; you can't get a lighter color otherwise.

[Blueglass]

Right if hair is dish water blonde you need something to lift the cuticle and something to beach. Pepigmentation unless your hair is white or white blonde. Henna red is good for Spring's and autumns. What season are you? A summer or winter might get away with a purplely henna if you
apply many times maybe with alma? There are specially hennas. Avigal, Rainbow, Morrocco that are not red. But you can't make light blonde. But research the speciallities. They don't have metalic salt, so they are safe. If you keep colors light you can highlight over that.

[Jeni]

You are right blond dye does lighten with bleach or peroxide. I'm not arguing with you there. All I am saying is that if you ask me if I bleach my hair, I will say no, because to me, "hair bleach" and "blond dye" are 2 different things. One has dye with bleach in it, and one is straight up bleach. I don't know how else to describe it, either you agree with me or not, doesn't really matter either way really. I am just explaining why when asked if I bleached my hair I said no, because I didn't use hair bleach, I used blond dye with bleach/peroxide in it. One person's bleach is another person's dye I suppose.

Bluegrass- I have no idea what season I am, I cant even figure out if I am a "warm" or "cool". Having dyed my hair both dark burgundy red and bright carrot top red, I can say I look better as a carrot top (IMO). I'm not sure my friends and family would agree, though, they cant seem to cope with me not being a blond.

Lexie- I figure when I am done playing with henna on hair from my brush I would try and see if I can dye over it, cant hurt to try and would be interesting (at least to me) to see what happens.

Iris- don't you love how "they" always seem to lie?! I swear nothing "they" ever say is true!:D If I ever find out who "they" are, I'm kicking butt!

I had a tiny bit of the "cassia" left so I mixed it up with just water last night and put a very small bit of hair into it, leaving it for like 2 hours. When rinsed the hair was most definitely not orangey red, it was slightly golden/yellow, so I guess it was the tea....

Jeni

[prosperina]

Well, it is disingenuous and confusing to say that you don't bleach your hair if you are lightening it chemically--since technically if you apply a product that has bleach in it to your hair you are bleaching your hair even if other color gets added on top. If you want to split hairs that's fine, but it's hard to get help if you have your own private definition of something. The reason why I wrote that long explanation is to clarify for you, so next time when someone asks you if you bleach your hair, you can answer in a more clear manner. Chemically lightened hair (is that a better expression?) plus henna can sometimes go funny--that's why I brought it up in the first place. Clearly, I've offended you and that was not what I intended.

[Jeni]

Well, it is disingenuous and confusing to say that you don't bleach your hair if you are lightening it chemically--since technically if you apply a product that has bleach in it to your hair you are bleaching your hair even if other color gets added on top. If you want to split hairs that's fine, but it's hard to get help if you have your own private definition of something. The reason why I wrote that long explanation is to clarify for you, so next time when someone asks you if you bleach your hair, you can answer in a more clear manner. Chemically lightened hair (is that a better expression?) plus henna can sometimes go funny--that's why I brought it up in the first place. Clearly, I've offended you and that was not what I intended.

Oh I'm not offended, I was just explaining why I answered the way I did. I have never been on a hair forum before, I guess the terminology is different here. So in further posts if I am asked if I bleach my hair I will say yes.

Thanks everyone for there help!

Jeni

[FrannyG]

Prosperina, I have to disagree with you. All box dyes that you buy at the drugstore, such as Clairol's L'Image (Utresse in the States) and Hydrience or L'Oreal's Preference or Excellence contains peroxide and ammonia, whether the shade is light blonde, light brown or black. All of those shades can lighten the hair by up to 2 shades (well, not black, of course). These shades can also be used to match the hair and colour over grey. If someone was covering their greys in their medium brown hair with Clairol Hydrience in medium brown, would you say they are "bleaching" their hair? I don't think so. Yes, they are chemically colouring their hair, but they are not using bleach.

Even the hi-lift blonde shades such as Les Blondisimmes by L'Oreal do not contain bleach, even though they can lighten hair by 4 shades or so.

Hair bleach is what is used to strip even natural dark hair or coloured hair right down to a white blonde shade. It is a complete colour stripper. It does contain a form of chlorine bleach and smells like chlorine bleach. It's also far more harsh on hair than any regular one step colour.

It's not just a question of semantics. They are two different things. I really understand where Jeni is coming from.

[Jeni]

frannyg- Thank you, you have explained it better then I did. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who feels there is a difference. I really don't want to argue, I think this maybe something you either agree with or not.

Jeni

[Lexie]

I thought professional 'bleach' was simply hydrogen peroxide ('developer') mixed with alkaline salts, one being a type of ammonia. Does anyone have any source of information that says otherwise? I've been trying to look it up, but I can't find anything related to chlorine bleach. And as far as I had been told (by professionals) was the reason boxed dye doesn't lighten well is because the peroxide volume is too low. Not trying to get in the middle of this argument. I'd just love to actually find a source that shows chlorine bleach is truly related to hair 'bleach.' To quench my own curiosity.

[FrannyG]

You're right, Lexie; the peroxide is the activator, and the alkaline mix contains one form of chlorine or another. I can't seem to find an ingredient list on the internet at the moment, but hair bleach always has an chemical which contains "chlor" somewhere. Indeed bleach does smell like chlorine bleach as well. It's unmistakable

[Lexie]

I tried searching too, but all I could find was this.


What are the Ingredients* of Manic Panic Flash Lightning Bleach Kits?
Developer Ingredients: Deionized Water, Hydrogen Peroxide, Phosphoric Acid.
Bleach Powder Ingredients: Sodium Persulfate, Sodium Silicate, Sodium Stearate, Silica, Ammonium Persulfate, Hydroxymethyl Cellulose, Disodium EDTA, Carbomer, Sodium Laureth Sulfate. [Ingredients correct as of 31st March 2007 and based on manufacturers product packaging].

I also read up on chlorine bleach and apparently it doesn't contain chlorine but can release it if an acid is added to it.

I didn't look up all of those ingredients yet, but I did check the first few in the powder and so far none seem to contain or release chlorine. And from what I read on wikipedia, this has all the ingredients of a 'bleach' (being something that lightens, not 'chlorine bleach' specifically). I don't know how other bleach powders may vary though.

[Jeni]

Ok just incase anyone cares, I went back and looked for the tea I used. It was organic black chai. Why did I use black chai?? No clue, figured it was better then red zinger....... I thought since it was black chai, if it affected the color at all it would make it dark blond, brownish. Yea I dont know, I dont mess with tea. So anyway when it turned red I was completly lost.

Anyway, so figured I should let anyone know, if you use black chai tea you may get a red color. I suppose if you cant use henna (I suppose people can be allergic), but want the red color, try mixing black chai and cassia....

[moogle301]

That's what I'm wondering. I'm kind of surprised tea could dye hair the same color as henna though. I think I'll try it again with just water. If it still turns red, I will caulk it up to my hair being a freak. (my hair does love to go red, which is why I dye it ask blond, if I use a warm/golden or even neutral blond I turn strawberry....maybe my hair is trying to tell me something?)

So has no one ever dyed over henna? How do you commit to a color like that? I'm only 25, I don't think I can make that much a commitment! Even if I love the hair color, not sure I want it for the rest of my life......which should be at least 50-60 years.
Jeni

I don't understand why people say it is a lifelong commitment. I have red hair anyways so if I decided to grow it out it wouldn't be a big deal, however, surely anybody can grow it out w/o it looking silly by dying the roots red until the henna has grown out (and then do whatever they want with it!) I guess there are the people who don't want to use chemical dyes but I still don't think its impossible to grow out henna. And maybe there are other natural red dyes which are temporary/can be dyed over?