Stuff I do without even thinking, Gladtobemom on Build-up and Clarifying.

[Gladtobemom]

I switch my hair routine around. I've actually found several routines that work for me. I move easily from soap based shampoos, shampoo bars, pine tar soap, shampoo, intelligent cone use, some proteins, conditioner only, and I've even tried the Rhassoul clay.

Recognizing Buildup.
Protein--leaves my hair with tangly ends and it sort of grabs at itself. Actually, a little protein buildup makes my updos stay up really well. My hair isn't as shiny, and it doesn't have that super slippery thing going on that causes my updos to slide down my head.

Mineral--this buildup is noxious. Under the microscope it looks like little rough patches, sort of hardened powder looking, and sometimes it can be sort of chunky dirty crystal looking stuff. This kind of buildup makes my hair just completely unruly. It looks like cotton candy floss instead of hair, fluffy/matted. In CA, my hair just slowly got worse and worse, I tried everything . . . nothing worked. I actually cut 10" off my hair because of this.

Cone--this makes my hair crunchy and dry feeling. My hair is flattish, even when it's just been washed. But if the cone buildup is old (like I quit using cones, but didn't clarify a month ago) I have little short fluffy new hairs sticking out everywhere and the bulk of my hair is flat.

Waxy--this seems to take two forms, from inadequate clearing of soap based cleansers or styling products. I have confused this type of buildup for the protein kind but this buildup is super grabby and dull. Updos aren't good.

How do I get rid of buildup:
If it's from protein products, a good cheap clarifying shampoo is needed, like VO5 Kiwi and Lime squeeze--one wash with it is usually enough. I find that baking soda doesn't do much for this kind of buildup and makes my hair really rough. Massage well.

I've also found that ANY product that protein and soap based shampoos don't mix at all for me. If I use a poo bar, then follow with a hair butter mix that has a condish with protien--bad hair. Instead of shining with the treatment, it gets dull. So if I'm using poo bars, I use coconut oil or a non protein conditioner.

Silicone based condtioner sprays, espicially cationic ones (acidic) can produce amazingly shiny hair after a poo bar. But the love is short lived I thought I'd found a miracle a few years ago, but it lasted for about 5 washes, then flat, and lank.

If I have mineral buildup, then the only thing that works is a Chelating shampoo. The only one I've ever used is Joico Chelating Shampoo. It will get rid of ANY buildup.

Added Note: I have also now used the L'anza Ultimate Chealating Treatment Shampoo. I DO think it is a more effective at major mineral buildup and yellowing than the Joico. It IS quite harsh, though and I highly recommend following up with their conditioner treatment.

If you are at your wits end and just think you have BAD HAIR . . . buy a bottle of chelating shampoo and try it. I thought my color-treated, rough, dull, damaged, weirdly fuzzy/curly hair had become what I identified as "menopausal" hair--you know, the kind that's like wool instead of hair. I used this stuff, two washes, one after another; then followed up with L'oreal Mega Moisture conditioner. It was a miracle . . . my hair was like HAIR again, it was silky. I joined LHC just after this; after that, I started trying all sorts of new things. I still have that original bottle, and I've used it two other times when my hair's gotten awful . . . works a treat.

If my old buildup is silicone, a clarifying shampoo will work. I find that the baking soda thing works okay too for getting out this buildup, but the baking soda (alkalinity) just roughs up the cuticle too much. As much as people swear by the baking soda, I'm a scientist, I've looked at my hair under a microscope many times. The baking soda leaves my hair with the cuticle standing out like crazy even after a vinegar rinse. . . whereas the clarifying shampoo leaves it looking normal afterward. Baking soda seems to be too harsh for my hair, I think it's probably too harsh for most curly hair . . . curly hair already has cuticle issues anyway.

If the buildup is Waxy, the Chelating shampoo works. Most Detox type shampoos work too. Baking soda . . . did work, but left my hair awful and dry. Identifying this kind of buildup isn't always easy. Usually it's from examining the products you've been using. Some CO conditioners I've tried gave me this kind of buildup. These seemed to be non-cone condtioners that were very rich and thick, but with no or low oil.

When switching to soap based cleaning.
Clarify with a clarifying shampoo before the first poo bar wash.
Poo bar wash
Vinegar rinse (3 Tbl. vinegar to 3 c. water) at scalp and let it flow through hair for a minute, then squeeze out, DON'T RINSE.
Conditioner then rinse OR wrap in a microfiber towel and apply hair butter when dry.

Alternatively, when I do a Dianyla's method of scalp wash with lite coconut milk protecting length.
Saturate length with lite coconut milk ( just submerge it and let it soak it up in a bowl or jar, if it gets to the scalp it's OK)
wash scalp with soap based shampoo or melted/diluted Pine tar soap (I use Grandpa's which is coconut based)
rinse
I could do this exclusively--if the weather is not too dry and I stick to just oil. No buildup at all if the shampoo (bar) is a good one without waxiness.

CO--conditioner only
If I'm starting up CO washing and I've been using soap based cleansing, I do clarify first and give my hair a big long soak with acidified conditioner afterward.
My CO washes always begin with VO5 KLS (Kiwi Lime Squeeze) conditioner as the first one, applied to dry hair, let stay on at least 6 minutes, good aggressive scalp massage too)
Vinegar rinse between conditioners, not rinsed out, just squeezed out. (3 Tbl. Vinegar to 3 c. water)
Last conditioner is always a rich one and not taken all the way to the scalp untill the last 30 seconds before rinsing.

If I mix a citric acid slop for the final condish for any cleansing method (1/4 tsp citric acid, 2 Tbl. water, 2 Tbl. condish), then I don't do the vinegar rinse. This makes my hair super shiny and slippey. If I want to wear a low ponytail or braid . . . this gives me very well behaved shiny hair. Of course, braiding is better on greasy dirty hair, but there's a lot to be said for the super shiny braid waves I get after this treatment and braiding damp. The shine and waves are incredible. People stop me on the street to tell me my hair is incredible. I actually have had people want to take my picture. One lady said it was shinier than Barbie's hair. :rollin:

Shampoo and conditioner
I avoid sulphates like the plague, except for the occasional clarifying shampoo. And then I make really really sure I rinse extremely well. My shampoo of choice is Queene Helene Mint Julep--cheap and a gentle cleanser. (I've used this shampoo for years with good results, it's only when I got lots of buildup that it wasn't working for me.)
I still, very often do a vinegar rinse.
The conditioner can be any . . . but my favorite these days is Tawaka.

I very often follow whatever wash I do with some "frizz buster gel." That's just some aloe and a little oil swished together in a medicine cup. My hair is very wavy and it craves moisture.

First, I was saved from thinking my hair had just turned "bad" with age by learning to clarify properly.

Then after a coloring disaster, where the beauticial left the dye on way too long my hair was awful again. Judicious use of cones, being AWARE of having to clarify, and some really rich condtioners . . . expecially Jason henna Hilight. My hair was saved till it grew.


If you are at your wits end, if you think your hair is just BAD, then buy a bottle of the Joico Chelating Shampoo, a tub of the L'Oreal Mega Moisture Conditioner or Biolage Conditioning Balm.
--Wash well, twice, use lots of massage.
--Vinegar rinse as described above
--Apply lots of the condish and let it stay on there at least 20 minutes under a shower cap.
--Rinse well.
--When hair is pretty damp, comb through just a couple of rise grains of the same conditioner for each 4 inches of hair below your ears (apply like oil with your palms then comb well).
This may convince you that your hair is pretty darned good after all.

These are my experiences. On the other hand, I've helped quite a few people realize that they DO have good hair . . . most notably my DH and my daughter. They were stubborn, I had to bet and bribe them to try this and stick to a regime that was healthy.

I swear, there's some weird thing that happens, we try things, they work, then they stop working . . . but we keep using them without realizing that maybe we should clarify, then they might work again. Or . . . maybe we shouldn't be using that stuff.

My Aunt caroline was ready to cut off her white hair and go to the helmet head look. It was yellowed matted fluff. I got her a bottle of Joico Chelating, Shimmer Lights Shampoo and conditioner. I washed her hair myself, after bribing her with a trip to the yarn store. I set it on magnetic rollers with just a little wave set. Her hair was like silk and not a bit of yellow. It was HAIR again, not cotton wool. Now she uses diluted Shimmer lights most of the time and the Joico a couple of times a year. Her hair is GORGEOUS. She's over 70 and it's BSL. She wears it in a Lana Turner french twist with a little swoop on the forehead--she's still so beautiful, tall with great posture and a beautiful face--my idol.

So I do switch around. And I keep a lab notebook in my bathroom. And I'm just as hair obsessed as ever. It's almost boring my hair is so predictably good these days.

[Arctic]

What a great, informative and well written post, GTBM! I would be delighted to see this submitted to the articles as well, there's never too much good info on clarifying! Well done!

[Silver & Gold]

This is one of the most useful things I've found in a while.

Thanks for posting!

[lora410]

Aveda hair detoxifier works wonderful. It get's rid of chlorine and other buildup.

[Gladtobemom]

I tried the Aveda too. It did work quite well.

I used Currescense afterward, though and it wasn't a strong enough conditioner. I think it needs a pretty intense one, like the biolage balm afterwards. I'm sure Aveda makes one that "intense," I just don't know what it is.

Is the Aveda Detoxifying a chelating one too?

[heidihug]

GTBM, where did you get your Joico shampoo? I went to their website and the only listing I could find for it in my area was for a salon that is quite a ways away and pretty inconvenient for me to go to.

But, I do have to admit, I could use a chelating shampoo - have always been reluctant to try them for fear they will harm my hair. We have super hard water which we have to soften. But it's still pretty nasty stuff, I won't even drink it. I think it dulls my hair. Plus, I use hair spray nearly every weekday. Bad me. I know that causes buildup on my hair that is difficult to remove.

[spidermom]

I used a baking soda/water solution because of buildup a couple of days ago, and my hair was so grabby and tangly afterwards. It must have been because the cuticle was still up. A day and a half later, my hair was nice again and remains so. I don't think I'll ever use it again.

[jojo]

Great post very useful.

[Gladtobemom]

My bottle of Joico Chelating shampoo was actually bought at an ethnic salon that specialized in braiding/weaves/relaxing and with a mostly African American clientele. My stylist at Long Hair Specialists in Pasadena worked there 1 day a week and she told me where to go to get it.

She said that chelating is very important after relaxing (or was that before relaxing).

I'm pretty sure that you can get it from most beauty supplies that sell Joico.

If you have hard water, after you chelate with Joico (which is a very intense clarifier), you can use the L'anza daily chelating shampoo which helps to keep the minerals from depositing. It's not as good for getting off the built up minerals, but it does a dandy job of keeping it from happening. My son loves the stuff and he swims all the time.

[girlcat36]

Thank you, Gladtobemom!
I am one of those cursed with 'bad hair'. I am at my wit's end!

[missy60]

Very informative thread Gladtobemom! It just about covers everything and very well written. I also like Malibu 2000 well water shampoo it is very gentle and sulfate free. It also keeps the minerals from attaching to your hair.

[BlndeInDisguise]

Thank you so much for posting this! I'm going to try a chelating shampoo. Did you dilute it at all, or just use it "straight"?

[Sammybunny711]

I went and bought some Suave Clarifying shampoo and I can't wait until tomorrow when I get to clarify and do SMT to put some moisture back in...my hair is ULTRA dry right now....

[Gladtobemom]

When I use the chelating shampoo, I do the "combing" method. If I dilute it too much, it seems not to work as well.

I put about a tablespoon of the shampoo in a little cup (so I can keep track of how much I use, sometimes I still have to add a little more, but my hair is thick and long.

I just keep dipping the tips of my fingers in and putting it in different spots on my scalp. Then, with my head forward, I start combing it through with my fingers. If I have to, I add a squirt more. The idea is to get it through your hair. I use the shower comb too. Then I massage my scalp really well and give the length a little scrubbing by sort of pressing it. The goal is to have it on there about 2 minutes.

Then I rinse and do it a second time. The second time takes only about a teaspoon of shampoo. The second time it lathers like crazy too. (I know it's because the stuff has raised the pH of my hair.) I rinse very very well.

Then pick up my jiff jar of vinegar water and start pouring it on,lifting the length so it gets on my scalp really well and flows down the length.

I let that just drip for a minute (I count out 60 peanut butters).

then I take a scoop of conditioner and start slathering it on, then combing. I swirl it into my shower cap and leave on the conditioner. I use enough conditioner to make sure it's all through my hair. Usually while I take a bath, at least 20 minutes.

Then, I just rinse very very well.

Wrap in a microfiber towel till damp. (Usually takes using two of them, one for 10 minutes, then another one for 15 min.)

Comb and apply just a few rice grains worth of the conditioner. I just gloss my palms and apply with the flats of my hands and comb well.

Then I usually put a towel on the back of the couch and sit with my hair supported to let it dry (helps keep it from being flat on top).

[Tressie]

Wow, that gives us a lot to work with! Thanks so much, from someone who is Not a scientist! It was very thoughtful of you to put this on the boards so that we could all benefit from your knowledge! (o:

[Curlsgirl]

I wonder if Nexxus aloe rid or the Sally's knock-off of aloe rid would do the same thing as the Joico? I have some of the knock-off and used it tonight actually followed by my usual leave-in of the conditioning balm. The only difference is I added a bit of baking soda to the aloe rid and I use a lot more of the conditioning balm than you said. It might be more or less depending on your own hair. I always need a lot of leave-in though. My hair does feel very soft and clean but moisturized.

Thanks for posting this. It's very good!!!

[Loviatar]

Fabulous stuff, GTBM. Tons of information, thank you.

I may get some chelating shampoo for twice yearly treatments if the minerals in London water build up too much on my hair...

[Kuchen]

Thanks for this - it prompted me to order that chelating shampoo I've been meaning to get for a long time. I've always lived in hard water areas, and always had snarly ends. Looking forward to trying this!

[morguebabe]

Thanks Im gunna have to try some of this, I'm slightly out of practice and my hair has become unruly.

[andrea1982]

GTBM, thanks for the informative post! I was curious, I see conflicting messages about which is better for hair, soap based cleansers or sulphates, or sulphate free detergent based shampoo. Could you share what your take is on this? What does your hair look like under the microscope after using a shampoo bar? I like the idea of shampoo bars, and my hair seems to respond well to them, but I always wonder if the alkalynity of soap is more damaging than shampoo which is ph balanced, or if it's the detergents in shampoo which are more damaging thank soap based cleansers. :confused:

[heidi w.]

Great post GladtobeMom. I vote getting this made into an article OR adding it to an article that may already exist on CLARIFYING and/or BAKING SODA and/or BUILDUP

I use Biolage's Conditioning Balm regularly.

I envy you your microscope!! IF I had the bucks, I would open a whole testing lab for all things hair.

heidi w.

[heidi w.]

My bottle of Joico Chelating shampoo was actually bought at an ethnic salon that specialized in braiding/weaves/relaxing and with a mostly African American clientele. My stylist at Long Hair Specialists in Pasadena worked there 1 day a week and she told me where to go to get it.

She said that chelating is very important after relaxing (or was that before relaxing).

I'm pretty sure that you can get it from most beauty supplies that sell Joico.

If you have hard water, after you chelate with Joico (which is a very intense clarifier), you can use the L'anza daily chelating shampoo which helps to keep the minerals from depositing. It's not as good for getting off the built up minerals, but it does a dandy job of keeping it from happening. My son loves the stuff and he swims all the time.

L'Anza generally is a good hair care product line that I advocate. Just be careful with the leave-in. Years ago I tried that L'Anza leave in and my hair began to break off b/c of too much protein -- I read the label more carefully: it instructed (that version/iteration in the product line at that time -- things may have changed by now) that fine hair types should rinse it out and not leave it in.

Ooops.

For folks who don't know: CLARIFYING is for handling buildup on the surface of hair, on top of the cuticle.

CHELATING is for handling problems at the level of the cortex, and indeed, this process is used as part of things such as perms (or hair relaxing mentioned above).

For those who use the Baking Soda method, and do not adequately condition immediately as part of this type of clarify hair wash, yes, your hair will be in a bit of trouble. It'll feel odd, be tangly. ONE MUST REPLACE WHAT'S BEEN REMOVED when CLARIFYING/CHELATING in terms of moisture/condition. (This is true when chelating too!) Very important.

heidi w.

[Gladtobemom]

I find that if I use the chelating shampoo, then folow with the vinegar rinse, making sure that it gets everywhere.

Then, press most of that out and put on a good condtioner, I'm effectively lowering the pH of the conditioner a bit. My conditioner seems to be more effective than if I rinse out the vinegar water or do without the vinegar water.

The thing about the Joico Chelating shampoo is it will dissolve out those minerals . . . and if you don't condition your hair will be gigantic if you have curly hair like me. I did that the first time and I sprayed it down with a very dilute solution of CHR (Cationic Hair Reconstructor, which has a pH of 4.5, castor oil, and some other stuff without cones). That helped. But since then . . . I follow chelation with a nice long acidified soak with Biolage Balm usually.

The Joico is supposed to be one of the gentlest that is EFFECTIVE on long term mineral buildup. Some of those shampoos are wicked harsh. To properly chelate the minerals, they have to be disassociated from the hair, and since some of the crystals are actually formed knitted with the edges of the cuticle . . . this means they have to be "de-crystalized." Theoretically, if you soak your hair in pure water (absolutely nothing but water) for a long time, that should work . . . but who wants to soak their head for something like a week. I tried that on a swatch of hair and it took a week to dissolve the crystals.

The Chelating shampoo got rid of them in minutes.

There IS a difference between the chelating shampoos
one type is supposed to keep the minerals from depositing and maybe dissolve a bit of the old stuff
Joico is supposed to get rid of the minerals quickly, and also get rid of pretty much every other buildup. It's an intensive treatment. If you have hard water, for instance, you may want to use the Joico once, then use one of the others often. (or get a shower filter)

[Tai Shan Fan]

Great post!

I live in a hard water area and think I have problems because of this. I've been wary of trying a chelating shampoo, as my hair is so fine and fragile. I think I need to find one and try it.

Anyone recommend a chelating shampoo available here in Germany?

[brok3nwings]

Wow that is great information and you did a great job! I actually had oil build up and about two weeks ago i washed my hair with Redken Cleansing Cream... i used to use it before LHC to take out a finish colour the hairdresser had put me and i hated it. oh now that i think i used it so often! :P but it did great for my hair with the build up...and i can always see it from my ends. I think that build up only bothers my ends...

[ktani]

I find that if I use the chelating shampoo, then folow with the vinegar rinse, making sure that it gets everywhere.

Then, press most of that out and put on a good condtioner, I'm effectively lowering the pH of the conditioner a bit. My conditioner seems to be more effective than if I rinse out the vinegar water or do without the vinegar water.

The thing about the Joico Chelating shampoo is it will dissolve out those minerals . . . and if you don't condition your hair will be gigantic if you have curly hair like me. I did that the first time and I sprayed it down with a very dilute solution of CHR (Cationic Hair Reconstructor, which has a pH of 4.5, castor oil, and some other stuff without cones). That helped. But since then . . . I follow chelation with a nice long acidified soak with Biolage Balm usually.

The Joico is supposed to be one of the gentlest that is EFFECTIVE on long term mineral buildup. Some of those shampoos are wicked harsh. To properly chelate the minerals, they have to be disassociated from the hair, and since some of the crystals are actually formed knitted with the edges of the cuticle . . . this means they have to be "de-crystalized." Theoretically, if you soak your hair in pure water (absolutely nothing but water) for a long time, that should work . . . but who wants to soak their head for something like a week. I tried that on a swatch of hair and it took a week to dissolve the crystals.

The Chelating shampoo got rid of them in minutes.

There IS a difference between the chelating shampoos
one type is supposed to keep the minerals from depositing and maybe dissolve a bit of the old stuff
Joico is supposed to get rid of the minerals quickly, and also get rid of pretty much every other buildup. It's an intensive treatment. If you have hard water, for instance, you may want to use the Joico once, then use one of the others often. (or get a shower filter)

Excellent points on chelating and the harshness of some clarifying shampoos, IMO.

Even the Joico one is not to be used too often, according to what I have read about it.

I made the mistake of using a clarifying shampoo by Redken years ago, now no doubt reformulated by L'Oreal, that shredded my hair, literally. I used it too often.

Even though it had the "perfect pH", the cleansing system in it was very strong and I did not need it really to deal with my hard water. I was not using a lot of products and I did not have product build-up that I was aware of on my hair.

I have hard water but I feel no need to use a shampoo to chelate or clarify now. The Sunsilk Lively Blonde Shampoo I use now, says on the tube that it removes "dulling residues" but I see no chelators that I recognize on the label. My hair is ok with just that and catnip.

[brok3nwings]

whats a chelator? what are the ingredients i should be looking for? ( i would really like to identify the difference of ingredients between one and another as i dont have those brands here in Portugal)
Ok there are two things that i believed and i dont know if they are true.
First: vinegar rinses helps to take most of the minerals of your hair
Second: Sulfates as it is supposed to be harsh was enough to take most of build up... clarifying your hair would only be needed from months to months of distance.

I know, probably i am asking too much but this is now making me wonder really. I am still looking for my perfect rotine and probably if i understood what hair really needs it would help me for sure :)
hmm..
anyone?
la la la

[ktani]

whats a chelator? what are the ingredients i should be looking for? ( i would really like to identify the difference of ingredients between one and another as i dont have those brands here in Portugal)
Ok there are two things that i believed and i dont know if they are true.
First: vinegar rinses helps to take most of the minerals of your hair
Second: Sulfates as it is supposed to be harsh was enough to take most of build up... clarifying your hair would only be needed from months to months of distance.

I know, probably i am asking too much but this is now making me wonder really. I am still looking for my perfect rotine and probably if i understood what hair really needs it would help me for sure :)
hmm..
anyone?
la la la

Vinegar can remove some mineral build-up but it is not a chelator and vinegar cannot remove conventional product build-up. It can for example help to remove honey residue but from reports in Honey, shampoo does that best.

There are chelators in honey and honey lightening recipe ingredients but they are more specific to certain metals, like iron.

In conventional products look for EDTA on a label. It removes a number of metals from the hair.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDTA

By definition, chelation is
"Chelation is used in the industrial separation and extraction of metals and to treat metal poisoning."
The American Heritage® Science Dictionary Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company (http://www.eref-trade.hmco.com/).
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/chelation

In hair care, chelation is used for example, to remove metals from hair that occur in products, and hard water.

When someone on the boards tried salt water as a hair care treatment, a chelating shampoo was the only remedy that worked to remove all of the salt that had bound to her hair.

[ktani]

Not all clarifying shampoos are chelators and not all chelating shampoos contain the same amount of chelating ingredients.

Here are the ingredients of a clarifying shampoo that does contain a chelator, Suave Clarifying Shampoo. I put it in bold.

"Water Aqua , Ammonium Lauryl Sulfate , Ammonium Laureth Sulfate , Cocamide MEA , Ammonium Chloride , PEG-5 Cocamide , Cocamidopropyl Betaine , Fragrance Parfum , Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose , Tetrasodium EDTA , DMDM Hydantoin , Citric Acid , Dimethicone Copolyol , Methylchloroisothiazolinone , Methylisothiazolinone , FD&C Blue No. 1 CI 42090 , D&C Red No. 33 CI 17200 , Ext. D&C Violet No. 2 CI 60730"
http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304570&id=prod9199#ingredient

There are some shampoos not called clarifying shampoos by name that also contain chelators. EDTA, is considered to be a good one.

[Gladtobemom]

I wrote it in response to a couple of people asking me how I switched from one method to another without having an "adjustment" period.

The key is being able to recognize buildup, acknowledge the need for clarifying, and to so it properly without causing damage.

Also, respecting the pH of your products and your scalp's acid mantle and the cuticle's reactions to pH, minerals, and condition.

Sulphates are good cleansers, but they do cause the edges of the cuticle to flare out because of the pH and they can dissolve a little of the frayed cuticle . . . which for long term health of the hair is not so great. SLS will disolve hair, if you soak hair in it for a few days, the hair becomes super elastic, it will stretch about 50%, it becomes weak. This is what happens to hair when using peroxide too. If someone has chemically colored hair, when their hair is wet it's VERY delicate, it stretches easily and every time you do stretch it, you are separating the cuticle from the hair shaft and it never glues itself back down properly.

I've watched this happen with the microscope. There is ALWAYS a certain amount of flared cuticle, even on the healthiest hair, just because of time and friction. Hair within an inch or so of the scalp looks very different than the hair 20" down. That 20" hair is 3-4 years old. So I try to minimize the damage to my hair.

[ktani]

Here are the ingredients of Nexxus Aloe Rid

"Water (Aqua), Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamide Dea, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Sodium Pca, Panthenol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, Avocado (Persea Gratissima) Oil, Soybean (Glycine Soja) Sterol, Ceramide 3, Wheat Flour (Triticum Vulgare) Lipids, Alpha-glucan Oligosaccharide, Butyl Methoxydibenzoylmethane, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Myristic Acid, Palmitic Acid, Stearic Acid, Sodium Chloride, Polyglyceryl-3 Distearate, Polysorbate 60, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Tetrasodium Edta, Sodium Thiosulfate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Citric Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Yellow 5 (Ci 19140), Blue 1 (Ci 42090)."
http://www.nexxus.com/hair_care_brands/signature_line/shampoo_aloe-rid_gentle_clarifying_3.html

It has 2 chelators. I cannot access the whole document below this link but the sodium thiosulfate is used here because it chelates calcium. In much larger amounts sodium thisulfate is used in perms. It is all about percentages.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem00/chem00275.htm


Sodium Thiosulfate Treatment for Calcific Uremic Arteriolopathy in ... (http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/1/6/1161)
No effective therapy exists, although anecdotal case reports highlight the use of sodium thiosulfate (STS), a calcium-chelating agent with antioxidant ...
cjasn.asnjournals.org/cgi/content/full/1/6/1161

[ktani]

I wrote it in response to a couple of people asking me how I switched from one method to another without having an "adjustment" period.

The key is being able to recognize buildup, acknowledge the need for clarifying, and to so it properly without causing damage.

Also, respecting the pH of your products and your scalp's acid mantle and the cuticle's reactions to pH, minerals, and condition.

Sulphates are good cleansers, but they do cause the edges of the cuticle to flare out because of the pH and they can dissolve a little of the frayed cuticle . . . which for long term health of the hair is not so great. SLS will disolve hair, if you soak hair in it for a few days, the hair becomes super elastic, it will stretch about 50%, it becomes weak. This is what happens to hair when using peroxide too. If someone has chemically colored hair, when their hair is wet it's VERY delicate, it stretches easily and every time you do stretch it, you are separating the cuticle from the hair shaft and it never glues itself back down properly.

I've watched this happen with the microscope. There is ALWAYS a certain amount of flared cuticle, even on the healthiest hair, just because of time and friction. Hair within an inch or so of the scalp looks very different than the hair 20" down. That 20" hair is 3-4 years old. So I try to minimize the damage to my hair.

2 points I am unclear about here.

1. Sufates flaring the cuticle would depend on the pH of the product, IMO.

2. Sls dissolving hair. Did you soak the hair in pure sls? At what pH? Did you soak hair in an alternate cleanser under the same conditions and pH?

Yes, I have read that sls can denature protein but it is about amounts used and pH and formulations when it comes to shampoos and liquid soaps.

I have never heard of an sls or sulfate shampoo dissolving hair. It makes no sense to me that shampoos that contain these ingredients would remain on the market if they pose such as risk, however small.

[Gladtobemom]

The Chelating shmapoos can only remove metal salts . . . not "metal." And the term, in this context, also means to de-crystalize or disassociate the salts from the protein matrix of the hair. Crystalized calcium just dissolves . . . hopefully.

In truth, there are going to be some metal salts that get under the cuticle or just won't dissolve. That's why it's a good idea to try not to expose your hair to dissolved minerals.

If you have hard water, use of a mild shampoo that minimizes the depositing of minerals (like the L'anza or the Well Water 2000 regular shampoo), then following with a final rinse of distilled water should almost completely eliminate the problems caused by hard water. (This recommendation is from my first Cousin in Corbin KY, where the water us super hard. Hers is now just at her waist now and she says that she never thought she could grow her hair out because she had BAD hair. Then, when Aunt Caroline (her mom) started nagging her, she tried the Chelating Shampoo and by then Aunt Caroline had done some research and it was she that found the L'anza milder one for upkeep.

[ktani]

The Chelating shmapoos can only remove metal salts . . . not "metal." .

You are correct. I should have said metal salts to be technically correct.

[Kuchen]

Great post!

I live in a hard water area and think I have problems because of this. I've been wary of trying a chelating shampoo, as my hair is so fine and fragile. I think I need to find one and try it.

Anyone recommend a chelating shampoo available here in Germany?

TrollKjerring referred me to a German on-line shop with stocks the Joico shampoo. It's somewhere in the German group comments :flower:

[Tai Shan Fan]

TrollKjerring referred me to a German on-line shop with stocks the Joico shampoo. It's somewhere in the German group comments :flower:

Thank you Kuchen :flower: I'll look it up.

[Gladtobemom]

I'm not saying that it's dissolving the Keratin in the 2 minutes it's on your head. What I am saying is that it IS harsher than some other cleansers. It does fray the cuticle over time and allows friction to "rub" some of the frayed edges off.

To see any effect of "dissolving" hair. You have to soak hair in a shampoo solution (I used six common ones, prell was one) it for a week or more. Then compare the cuticle edges. The little frayed parts are blurry and fluffy; I found that when I probed, the edges little bits came off and a grooved appearance shows up at the edges of the cuticle. Keratin was actually separating away and it had turned into something soft and maleable.

My control was just soaking it in water. To be fair, the edges were frayed out quite a bit too. But when I probed, nothing disconnected. The edges weren't blurry either.

As another comparison, for instance, when I soaked hair in diluted pine tar soap for a week. . . there was more "fraying out" of the cuticle, but the little edges were still there and there was a little disconnecting, but I had to scrape with the probe, not just touch it. No grooved appearance though.

Soaking in Queene Helen Mint julep . . . (Non Sulphate, propylene glycol is the cleanser, and it does have Cocamide DEA which is a foaming agent) the frayed edges were actually less noticeable than with the Pine tar soap and when probed, I didn't notice any flaking off of the edges. This shampoo seems to be very mild. BUT IT WILL NOT TAKE OUT CONES AT ALL. If you use any cones, this is not the shampoo for you.

I did this back in my twenties, as a project for school when we got to think up our own. It was very interesting. I also soaked hair in coca cola, salicylic acid (dilute) and several other things. Salicylic acid will TOTALLY dissolve hair if the concentration is high enough and you leave it long enough, the hair turns to jelly. The coca cola grew mold and the hair had fuzzy weird stuff on it. I surmized at the time that it was mold.

I've been hair obsessed for a very long time.

[ktani]

Chelation and EDTA
".... chelating agent is a substance whose molecules can form several bonds to a single metal ion .....

EDTA .... frequently used in soaps and detergents, because it forms a complexes with calcium and magnesium ions. These ions are in hard water .... interfere with the cleaning action of soaps and detergents. .... EDTA binds to them, sequestering them and preventing their interference."
http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/CHEMWEEK/Chelates/Chelates.html

[ktani]

Citric acid can denature protein too.

"The citric acid in lime juice changes the proteins in fish .... a process called denaturation.
.... besides acids and heat .... other kinds of situations can denature proteins. High concentrations of salts, including table salt (sodium chloride) can do it. Air can do it, as happens in the bubbles formed when cream is whipped. Even alkalis, the opposite of acids, and low temperatures, the opposite of heat, can do it, but less commonly."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36202-2004Nov9.html

[ktani]

I'm not saying that it's dissolving the Keratin in the 2 minutes it's on your head. What I am saying is that it IS harsher than some other cleansers. It does fray the cuticle over time and allows friction to "rub" some of the frayed edges off.

To see any effect of "dissolving" hair. You have to soak hair in a shampoo solution (I used six common ones, prell was one) it for a week or more. Then compare the cuticle edges. The little frayed parts are blurry and fluffy; I found that when I probed, the edges little bits came off and a grooved appearance shows up at the edges of the cuticle. Keratin was actually separating away and it had turned into something soft and maleable.

My control was just soaking it in water. To be fair, the edges were frayed out quite a bit too. But when I probed, nothing disconnected. The edges weren't blurry either.

As another comparison, for instance, when I soaked hair in diluted pine tar soap for a week. . . there was more "fraying out" of the cuticle, but the little edges were still there and there was a little disconnecting, but I had to scrape with the probe, not just touch it. No grooved appearance though.

Soaking in Queene Helen Mint julep . . . (Non Sulphate, propylene glycol is the cleanser, and it does have Cocamide DEA which is a foaming agent) the frayed edges were actually less noticeable than with the Pine tar soap and when probed, I didn't notice any flaking off of the edges. This shampoo seems to be very mild. BUT IT WILL NOT TAKE OUT CONES AT ALL. If you use any cones, this is not the shampoo for you.

I did this back in my twenties, as a project for school when we got to think up our own. It was very interesting. I also soaked hair in coca cola, salicylic acid (dilute) and several other things. Salicylic acid will TOTALLY dissolve hair if the concentration is high enough and you leave it long enough, the hair turns to jelly. The coca cola grew mold and the hair had fuzzy weird stuff on it. I surmized at the time that it was mold.

I've been hair obsessed for a very long time.

Me too.

The problem I see with your experiments is that you used the whole product, not single ingredients. There are other possibilities as to what produced your results, including the fact that in combination, chemicals change. To me your results were valid for those particular products only, not single ingredients. The formulations of sulfate shampoos are as varied as the number of such products on the market. I remember reading something to the effect that the old Prell shampoo "could strip furniture" lol. It was supposedly quite alkaline.

Paula Begoun in one of her hair care books, states that any shampoo, left on the hair too long, can be drying. She is not a fan of sls but she does recommend sles as a gentle cleanser.

There is nothing natural about Queen Helene Mint Julep shampoo.
"Water (Aqua), Cocamide DEA, Propylene Glycol, Fragrance (Parfum), Chlorophyllin, D&C Yellow #10 (CI#47005), D&C Green #5 (CI#61570)."
https://www.hairproducts.com/view_product_SHA-QUE100.htm

And cocamide DEA, is the cleanser IMO, not the propylene glycol.
http://sci-toys.com/ingredients/cocamide_dea.html

http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_details.php?ingredient_id=1427

Safety
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2545087

MSDS
http://www.aicma.com/msds/Cocamide%20Dea%20212.pdf

[Gladtobemom]

Nanny Pauline's Airing Powder is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=6387) with a bunch of other Nanny stuff.

[hippiechick1976]

Thanks for this post:) Very informative and well written:)

[ktani]

Propylene glycol, irritation
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=92606

Safety
http://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_264480.html

Uses
"Solvent and coupling agent in the formulation of sun screen, lotion, shampoos, shaving creams ..."
http://www.dow.com/propyleneglycol/prod/pguspep.htm

It is used as an emulsifier in creams but I do not see it used as a cleanser per se, perhaps in combination with the cocamide DEA.

[ktani]

As with anything else, results vary in terms of reviews.
http://www.makeupalley.com/product/showreview.asp/ItemId=27062/Mt_Julep_Shampoo/Queen_Helene/Shampoo

[Gladtobemom]

Yep, experiences vary.

If you try the Queen Helene Mint Julep, read the bottle. It's a concentrate that makes a gallon 7-1. I mix it 11-1, which is even more diluted.

I actually talked (back when) to the guy that formulated it. It was specifically designed not to strip out coloring or henna! Back in the '50s most colorings were relatively temporary EXCEPT the ones that were henna and indigo based. This shampoo was formulated then.

[ktani]

Yep, experiences vary.

If you try the Queen Helene Mint Julep, read the bottle. It's a concentrate that makes a gallon 7-1. I mix it 11-1, which is even more diluted.

I actually talked (back when) to the guy that formulated it. It was specifically designed not to strip out coloring or henna! Back in the '50s most colorings were relatively temporary EXCEPT the ones that were henna and indigo based. This shampoo was formulated then.

I would loved to have talked to him, lol.

Out of curiosity, what is the pH of solutions you have used with it?

[Gladtobemom]

Bumping this thread. I was asked some questions and every single answer is in the post at the top of the thread.

[rosieex3]

Thank you for this post! The water in my area is awful. I use Suave Daily Clarifying shampoo once in awhile, but I'm sure that something like Joico Chelating Shampoo will actually remove the hard water minerals from my hair. I'm very interested in this, I've never thought of purchasing a shampoo that will remove build up from hard water. I've washed my hair in this awful water for my whole life, I'm curious as to what it will look like after using the Chelating shampoo. :)

[Artsy]

Wow, thanks for the post. You've answered some questions that I missed while searching for info on clarifying. This thread did not come up then.

[Delila]

Ooooh! Very informative, thanks! Guess I missed this first time around.

[Karmi]

Thanks for all the great information here! it's a thread that keeps on giving! :)

[HintOfMint]

What a fantastic post! This should be a sticky or an article!

[Gladtobemom]

What a fantastic post! This should be a sticky or an article!

It is an article (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=194):grin:

Thank you for the complement.

[NordicPandi]

thanks so much for posting all the great information!! It inspired me to get some Joico Kpak and WOW WOW!! seriously I'm sooo happy that my hair feels so good. I was thinking that I needed to cut another few inches off, but now I definitely don't. You saved my hair :joy:

[WaterMusic]

Does anyone have a link to a list of chelating agents? I know about EDTA, but surely there are others.

[Lazy Loop]

Fabulous, Gladtobemom! So thorough. I loved the part about menopausal hair; I thought I had that, too! Maybe I do, but clarifying, eliminating protein, cones, poo and using coconut oil have all helped battle this 50's fuzz!

[Avital88]

i was thinking to try the Joico Chelating shampoo for a while.. Your post made me log into Ebay and order a bottle right away! :-D
I'm not really keen on L'oreal products but might look into the Biolage.Glad to hear that its not only working for your hair but that you also make others happy again with their locks,i like stories like that!
Thanks for all the info

[Avital88]

i was thinking to try the Joico Chelating shampoo for a while.. Your post made me log into Ebay and order a bottle right away! :-D
I'm not really keen on L'oreal products but might look into the Biolage.Glad to hear that its not only working for your hair but that you also make others happy again with their locks,i like stories like that!
Thanks for all the info

[jacqueline101]

That was a very useful thread.

[Kake]

I clarified today and my hair has really benefited. I had some product build up, and now it is really silky, soft and not frizzy at all. My hair colour looks a little different too. I've given up dye and have been struggling with the brassiness of the coloured portion. But after clarifying it looks softer and more natural, colour wise. I wasn't expecting this at all, and am so happy.