Am I the only one that is creeped out by the R name/label?

[jane_marie]

You know the name. It's the name of that fairy tale princess that was locked in a tower and had to let some dude climb her hair so she could get out....

I've noticed an increasing number of threads featuring the name.

There are several reasons that I dislike this... term the main one being that I associate it with sexualized images and other content featuring women with longer than average hair. The other reason is mostly due to things like outdated gender norms, the act of placing women on a metaphoric pedestal based on a physical attribute and the slightly dehumanizing effect of label someone with a nickname from a fantasy world.

All this together makes that R name cringey to me... and my hair isn't even long enough to be considered a long hair.

How do others feel about the label? Does anyone else find it as offensive as I do?

[elise.autumn]

I understand where you're coming from, if it's *exualized. I haven't come across these images, but I also haven't looked in places where I might find them.

Personally, I don't mind the R name. I am most complimented when someone says that my hair looks ethereal, elflike, or from a fairytale. This is my desired personal aesthetic. Now, if a man said it in a *uggestive way, that would be complete different. But that has thankfully not happened to me before.

[Jane99]

As much as I’ve grown to pick apart and even ruin some of the old favorite stories/movies (The Princess Bride! I loved that movie until I started analyzing it) I hadn’t given much thought to Rapunzel in particular but with a shred of feminist perspective, yes, I am creeped out. Fairy tales are particularly interesting to me though... in psychology Carl Jung offers a perspective of considering a collective unconscious to reveal themes throughout cultures and times and subconscious archetypes of individual roles themselves. Oppression for sure, but it is the woman’s hair that serves to her greater freedom even more than the prince, as a different frame?

[SleepyTangles]

No, but if you feel uncomfortable with it I can understand.
Personally the fairytale has not been spoiled in my mind by feti*h imageries ;).

I personally have more problems with "Wuthering Heights-style" narratives, like romanticizing toxic relationships in pop culture. But well, that's another topic completely...

ETA: i just want to specify that I have nothing against feti*hes, provided that it's kept between consenting adults (like any other se*ual activity). But sometimes is stressful to live in hyperse*ualized contexts.

Sorry for the asterisks, trying to give no keywords that can bring the topic to the wrong eyes :rolling:

[Lady Stardust]

I don’t like it, unless it’s used by kids. (Modern stories for kids are far more balanced in every way, and I choose to read those to my daughter, but fairy tales seep into mainstream culture so I know she’s going to end up knowing them anyway. She already knows names of some of the Disney princesses and I certainly haven’t introduced them to her! She’s 4, for reference. A lot of fairy tales are too violent for her age!)

I loved fairy tales when I was a child, and I wanted to be a princess. My Dad told me straight away that I would hate the lack of privacy that came with it so I went off the idea rapidly :)

I do feel a bit uncomfortable when any adult talks about wanting to be like a fairy tale character or princess. And yes, if a man described me as Rapunzel (assuming my hair was much longer!) my first thoughts about it would be negative.

[Male Ponytail]

You know the name. It's the name of that fairy tale princess that was locked in a tower and had to let some dude climb her hair so she could get out....

I've noticed an increasing number of threads featuring the name.

There are several reasons that I dislike this... term the main one being that I associate it with sexualized images and other content featuring women with longer than average hair. The other reason is mostly due to things like outdated gender norms, the act of placing women on a metaphoric pedestal based on a physical attribute and the slightly dehumanizing effect of label someone with a nickname from a fantasy world.

All this together makes that R name cringey to me... and my hair isn't even long enough to be considered a long hair.

How do others feel about the label? Does anyone else find it as offensive as I do?

Tell me where in the story of Rapunzel it deals with sexualized images? I know there's a part where a carpenter and wife have a baby and Rapunzel marries the prince and they kiss but other than that I cannot see the point you're making. Enligten me if you would.

Are gender norms really outdated? From how the world works from my experience I don't think this is at all the case. Gender norms just are and there's nothing we can do about it as most people wish to not let go of such constructs. Sure we can negotiate to play the role of the opposite sex in certain instances and beyond but generally people don't gravitate towards this way of doing things. For me, I have no issues deviating from gender norms in many ways but I am not typical.

[MusicalSpoons]

I read this title and thought of the other r-word and thought, well it's offensive but I've never found it *creepy* :doh:

I don't know. I certainly understand why people might be, especially if they've had experiences with being objectified - and yeah, the whole damsel in distress and particularly a subsection of "admirers" overly liking the idea that having long hair is such a hardship and we have to suffer for its beauty :puke: (not that that's necessarily overtly related to the fairytale, but goes along with the damsel in distress idea).

However, I think a generation of children know it from Tangled, which from what I've seen of certain parts analysed is a much more modern and empowering retelling - it shows her escaping from an abusive parent and the relationship with the prince is much more on her own terms. I haven't watched it for a very long time but that's the overall feel I got from it even then, so if a generation of kids grow up with that version of Rapunzel as their frame of reference for calling someone the same name, that's very different from the traditional fairytale.

[blackgothicdoll]

I don't, and I don't know anywhere that Rapunzel was more than a fantasy character/fairy tale. There are other tellings of stories that I may be unaware of, though. Although I disagree, I don't invalidate your opinion. I also see you're not the only one of this forum who has had objections to having comparisons drawn to her just by having long hair.

[lilbee]

Being creeped out by a fantasy tale for children ?... If so, what about Little Red Riding Hood ? Lol. This sounds bloody more offensive if you read between the lines, especially considering that it's supposed to be a children story.

If you start "reading" all things with a s** orientated mind, you'll spend your life beeing creeped out, methinks. When people gives a longhair the R name, it usually just means R (= the-long-haired-lovely-lady-from-the-children-story). And if not, let those creeps fantasize their pitiful life and go on enjoying yours the way you like : longhairs don't care, do they ! ;) ;) ;)

This said, being "gender outdated" or "having a traditional view of genders in socitey" is also a right in democracy...

[Sarahlabyrinth]

I rather like it. To me, it just means someone with very long beautiful hair. I don't worry about other things the fairy tale might imply. Though it ends well and injustice is set right. The prisoner is freed.

[jane_marie]

Okay, sorry for bringing it up. I have just stumbled across some creepy unsettling adult media that is apparently tagged with that label and so I associated that with the name.

It's not really about the fairy tale so much as the fair tale combined with that subgenre of media.

Never mind. Forget the whole thing.

[Lady Stardust]

There’s a website with the R-word in the title that I’m not going to name, because I don’t want people searching for it to come here! I think that’s what people might be referring to when they talk about s#xualisation.

The website has been mentioned on the forum in the past.

ETA: jane_marie I’ve just seen your post. I’m glad you brought it up, I think it’s relevant.

ETA: editing word to misspell so it isn’t searchable!

[MusicalSpoons]

Okay, sorry for bringing it up. I have just stumbled across some creepy unsettling adult media that is apparently tagged with that label and so I associated that with the name.

It's not really about the fairy tale so much as the fair tale combined with that subgenre of media.

Never mind. Forget the whole thing.

No, it's a fair discussion, especially given one member's recent post about their very much lived experience of being called it, and the fact that long hair *is* kind of synonymous with the name.

It's good to know why people feel the way they do, why some find it creepy and why others are fine with it. That's one of the best things about this community, open-minded, intelligent discussion :)

[AmaryllisRed]

Absolutely creepy.
I have seen, in the last two years or so since I started following long hairs on Instagram and YouTube, people, presumably men, calling long-haired women that. And of course they say other creepy things, too. As some others have said, kids get a pass because all they're thinking is her hair is long and beautiful. But a grown man is almost certainly having other thoughts and that's the part I find offensive.

[MusicalSpoons]

Absolutely creepy.
I have seen, in the last two years or so since I started following long hairs on Instagram and YouTube, people, presumably men, calling long-haired women that. And of course they say other creepy things, too. As some others have said, kids get a pass because all they're thinking is her hair is long and beautiful. But a grown man is almost certainly having other thoughts and that's the part I find offensive.

The grown men in my life I sincerely doubt would ever make such a connection - but random strangers, especially on the internet, I'm afraid I would not trust to have benign intentions, knowing what I know now. But before LHC I wasn't aware of any of this (I didn't even know long hair was a f*tish, let alone a common one) so I wouldn't have known that it *could* be creepy.

[Cg]

I don't find it offensive, it's just a name in a story for toddlers. Like any other silly name babies can latch onto.

An image I can never erase when I hear the name is an old MAD magazine cartoon, in which the last frame showed the prince or whoever discovering the hair was from her underarms. Now the name evokes a gross image rather than being merely a random collection of sounds and meter to balance a nursery rhyme.

[MusicalSpoons]

I don't find it offensive, it's just a name in a story for toddlers. Like any other silly name babies can latch onto.

An image I can never erase when I hear the name is an old MAD magazine cartoon, in which the last frame showed the prince or whoever discovering the hair was from her underarms. Now the name evokes a gross image rather than being merely a random collection of sounds and meter to balance a nursery rhyme.

:rollin:

Maybe those who are subject to obvious creeps calling them the name should keep a copy of that to flash at them :grin:

[0xalis]

I read this title and thought of the other r-word and thought, well it's offensive but I've never found it *creepy* :doh:


Same, hahaha.

Jane, I totally understand where you're coming from! I never really thought about it until now, but it's definitely an issue with a certain group of people.
I definitely agree with those who said it's fine coming from a kid, they're just being nice of course :flower:

[eresh]

No, I like fairytales, the old fairytales. Gruesome and all.
But Rapunzel never made me think something other than just a nice story and long beautiful hair.
When children see my hair down they often call me Rapunzel or Princess.
It's harmless. Some adults even say that, oooh that's amazing, like a real Rapunzel! They don't mean anything s*xual with that.

Also, I don't mind f*tishes. And I don't mind the R-site some people are mentioning.
As long as they don't steal my photos or bother me IRL.

[gossamer]

I'm going to copy-paste from a post I made on another thread yesterday related to this:


I had floor+ length hair for a few years (back at mid/low calf now). Sometimes people on the boards would jokingly call it "epic length" but "floor+" is still probably the best neutral descriptor.

I know others don't mind the term "Rapunzel" used to describe their hair (or their identity as someone with long hair), but it's always rubbed me the wrong way. I realize this is a personal preference, so usually when people call me "Rapunzel" I try to gently tell them I don't like being called that in the hopes they'll respect my feelings.

I think maybe others use it as a catch-all term for long hair? Maybe because not everyone remembers the part about an older woman locking a young woman up in a tower to keep her from independent adulthood until a man saves her?

But I can't separate it from that whenever I hear it.

Kids, of course, get a pass if they see my braid and call me "Rapunzel," and I have a cute set response about "Nah, her hair was WAYYYY longer, this wouldn't reach out the window very far now would it??" :silly:

But the thing is I've seen that there is a subset of people (not you, or most people really) who use that term for long haired women specifically because they do want a world where a very specific kind of "traditional" gender roles are strictly monitored.

For example, I once got in an argument in comments on a hair photo I posted on instagram with a dude who told me about how I was like a princess stuck up in a tower and he wanted to come save me, and when I told him I could save myself just fine he got really mad, told me that I had to appreciate his compliments, and then went into some rant how heteronormative strict gender roles are "natural and right" because I couldn't lift a sword with my girl arms or something before blocking me. :lol: but also... such cringe. Same deal with dudes who sent me PMs on instagram about how much they love how I am "a Rapunzel" who clearly supports old fashioned femininity which, um no I'm not? Usually really easy to rattle them when I turn the conversation into trying to convince them that long hair can be for everyone, including them, and so are skirts and dresses, and so are any kinds of expression of personal style...

Anyway, just as someone who's had hair below knee length for like 9 years now, and ~4 years of that it was at floor+, I am awfully tired of being called "Rapunzel."

And then also, in relation to how I think about LHC as a community for people who have long hair but not a space for active expression of a k*nk for long hair, let me copy/paste some pieces from a post I wrote years ago.



So... I wrote a novel:
I'd argue that [the kerfluflle and long thread that resulted] isn't about randomly finding long hair a turn on, but about the video [one that caused a stir when someone posted it] intentionally being made for the purpose of specifically sexualizing ultralong hair that makes many people in this specific community uncomfortable.

Hang on with me here, I'm not saying that k*nks or things that can be turn-ons are automatically bad. Actually, the exact opposite is true when you have a specific thing that turns you on and you find other people that share that and everyone agrees to participate. If you've found that, yay! That's great!

SO! Things about these types of videos we shouldn't worry about :

[cut for length - you can go to the original post to read if curious]

All well and good, but this is where I'd like to try explain a few reasons why it might be discomforting for people who've commented on this thread or read this thread but didn't comment:
a) Many of us here probably don't have those kinds of specifically sexual feelings about long hair, so all the cues in the videos with the music and the facial expressions that are supposed to give certain responses to the viewer end up looking confusing or uncomfortable for us - we're not the intended audience and that's fine. So we can say things like "yeah I like long hair and I can admire the beauty of woman's hair in the video, but this specific kind of admiration is not for me, I'm out."

b) Unfortunately, if you are a long haired woman on the internet who isn't into the culture in points 1-3 above, many people in the "admirers" community do not respect our boundaries and assume that the only possible reason we could have wanted long hair is for their pleasure, and leave us comments and send us messages to that effect. Having willing and enthusiastic partner(s) in your k*nk is great. Imposing it on other people without their consent is NOT. Trust me, I've gotten some truly creepy comments on my clearly instructional youtube videos that I've deleted. My videos don't have any of the musical or facial expression or flowy hair cues that the videos intentionally made for that audience have, but the people watching them looking to get off assume that I am making them for their pleasure nonetheless and tell me about that in great detail. Dudes, please just don't. But it does make many of us with long hair really tired of being assumed to be 1 or 3 above when we just want to have long hair for lots of other reasons.

c) Because of these assumptions on the wider internet and sometimes even in public offline, many of us feel like LHC is the only place we can come online to get away from being targeted by people looking to get turned on by our hair. It then becomes more disconcerting when we try to make this a neutral, non-sexualized space for long hair for someone who might click on the video above not expecting that vibe.

d) Unfortunately, there is also a subset of "admirers" who, unlike the people I describe in 1-3 above with whom I have no problems, enjoy getting and sharing photos and videos without the permission of the person in them. This includes coming over to LHC and copying photos that are hosted on other sites, not in our albums (remember, you have to have to have an account and a certain number of quality posts and days on the forum before you can see photos), and reposting them on forums that, unlike ours, cater to them. This forum isn't for that, and our mods work very hard to identify and delete any accounts that are not here in our best interests, or warn users who are crossing that line. This is real work. It's important that the community not look like it welcomes this segment. Remember how in the rules we have one about not posting photos of strangers that you've taken from behind? This is why.

[Hailwidis]

The term also rubs me the wrong way, for largely all the reasons Gossamer mentioned above - though I've never had experience of being called it myself.

[TatsuOni]

For me it totally depends on who sais it. Random men that's obviously only interested in one thing = creepy. "Normal" people or children thinking that they're giving me a compliment or just blurting out the first thing that comes to mind = okay and harmless. But it's not a word that I desire to hear and I totally get why some people are against it it general.

[lapushka]

Part of me thinks it's dated. No sexualization type images here at all, though. I still like to think it's an innocent connotation. Disney, the princesses. It's just fun more than it is a bother... to me.

[Zesty]

I see what you're saying, but I personally really like Rapunzel (and Tangled is a comfort movie for me) so it doesn't bother me at all in itself. It might if the person saying it was being creepy, but to date no one has used it towards me in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. I'm not someone who reads too much into the implications in that way though.

[Lucy McLucyFace]

I'd just like to add to this thread that if you think about it Rapunzel would have to be very strong to be able to hold her hair for a fully grown man to climb up a tower like that :o

[harpgal]

I rather like it. To me, it just means someone with very long beautiful hair. I don't worry about other things the fairy tale might imply. Though it ends well and injustice is set right. The prisoner is freed.
Agree...but then again I am a romantic at heart.

[KokoroDragon]

For me it depends on who's saying it. If, for example, it was from my close friends or other LHC members and used in a respectful manner, I wouldn't mind at all. If it was from adult strangers I'd probably feel slightly uncomfortable but unless I got a bad vibe from them I'd probably just accept it as a compliment.

I don't think children should get a free pass. They're learning about the world around them and what kinds of behaviors are acceptable. If I didn't feel comfortable with someone calling me that, I would politely tell them to stop, even if they are a child. Of course, I wouldn't be mean about it. But I see it as a wonderful opportunity to teach them about boundaries.

Back when I was entering middle school, I was placed in a new classroom for a day to see if I liked the new school. I had waist to TBL hair at the time, I don't remember exactly what length. Several kids immediately started calling me the R name, despite my repeated requests for them to call me by my actual name instead. Maybe this experience is why I don't think children should get a free pass.

Basically, it doesn't offend me but I do feel objectified by it. If someone who I trust and know sees me as a person uses it I don't mind, though.

[Sora Rose]

Admittedly kind of surprised some people find this creepy or offensive, but then again, I didn't know much about the weirdos either haha.

Personally I've never been called Rapunzel, but would think it a compliment. I correlate it in my mind with a beautiful maiden with long hair, and I don't see anything particularly wrong with the story or its 'message' (which will depend, of course, which version you read, since there are so many of them and all with slight alterations and meanings and cultures behind them). I find the story fascinating. It has interesting theoretical symbolism and, I think, is a pretty interesting glimpse of the past - even if it is all make believe.

It isn't even the only story/poem/song of a maiden with unrealistically long hair, but I digress, since it IS the most famous one.

Granted, if someone said this particular word in a creepy way, I'd find it disturbing. But that's a given for anything.

[spidermom]

I don't care. I haven't ever been called Repunzel that I can recall, but I am pretty sure I wouldn't take it in a negative way, although I guess it would depend on who said it and in what tone of voice. So far "meh".

[Larke]

Okay, some possibly strange opinions incoming... :lol:

I think long hair IS something that has a *exual aspect to it, both culturally and more broadly. (It's also associated with femininity more generally, and then you can start getting into a big discussion of gendered cultural standards, but I'm mostly setting that aside for now.) I am particularly thinking of the attitudes expressed by Pre-Raphaelite artists (see a brief discussion here: http://preraphaelitesisterhood.com/enchanted-hair/, as well as a good more general post here: https://beautifulintheory.com/2014/04/01/cleopatra-was-a-redhead-a-history-of-hair/). In many cultures, hair is either covered or put up in some way, especially after marriage. Free-flowing hair on mature women clearly has this sort of connotation.

Now, I don't think that's a bad thing. That is part of where beauty and attractiveness come from. There are many aspects of *exuality that are attractive that don't have to be bad or creepy or weird.

However, some people can take it to a creepy place. Unfortunately, in a world where there are creepy people, long loose hair will be seen by some of those people in a weird light. That's just a reality of our culture. I don't think that's right, I don't want to support or excuse it in ANY way. But I do have to find a way of living in a world where that is the case. So for me, there is a level of modesty that applies to hair as well as to any other party of the body. For example, if I am in a very formal setting, I will wear my hair up, even if it's not strictly required. I also wouldn't post hair photos/videos on my social media where random people can see them. These are definitely only personal choices, and I think everybody should make that choice any way they want. But whatever choice is made, I think it needs to be done with these factors taken into consideration.

In my opinion, the term Repunzel in and of itself is not in the least bit offensive. Fairytale princesses with long hair are beautiful and they are generally a positive part of our culture. Positive not in the sense that we all necessarily want to be like them, but positive in the sense that when people do something like compare a long-haired woman to Repunzel, they usually mean it as a compliment. But like any word, I think what matters is not the word itself so much as the content put into it. If people have a creepy connotation with the word and then use it as such, that's unpleasant. For the most part, however, I think people just want to say that they find long hair beautiful and they want to be nice about it. It's that intention that matters the most to me. And if the intention isn't clear, I would give the benefit of the doubt and assume it's meant well.

[Chromis]

I'm not creeped out, but I can see how it could be creepy! Context is everything. I mean, little kids comparing you to Rapunzel are not too likely to be letching at you. I agree the story has some pretty major issues, although seriously I'm not aware of any fairy tales that don't. The original or the Disney versions!

What is interesting about the Rapunzel story though, is that the girl was named after the plant that the mother craved. The original tale has a pregnant woman who is craving a salad green. Her husband breaks into the witch's garden to get it and is caught. He agrees to give her their baby in exchange for not killing them. The witch then names the baby after the salad green. So when we parody the tale - we are really calling out something like, "Lettuce, lettuce - Let down your hair!"

Picking the tale itself aside (and there is lots there!) - creepy peeps can make anything sound icky when accompanied by a leer and a smarmy tone of voice.

[PallasAthena]

First I would like to say that I really appreciate this discussion, whatever side anyone is on! It is kind of cool to look more deeply into things regarding hair and identity and society, so thanks for the post and the responses!

For me the gendered/femeninity aspect of long hair has kept me with short hair most of my life, since second grade! I definitely never identified with princesses at all and was a tomboy as a child and would not consider myself exactly binary as an adult. I really hate the standardized femininity aspect of long hair but I also kind of love long hair so it is hard for me to figure out a way to make it androgynous.

As for ******ists, they are everywhere and I figured that was why this space is so protective of members and their photos. I don't really mind what turns people on I just don't like the expectations that sometimes come from being perceived as female with long hair, namely heteronormative, cisnormative stuff that does not resonate with me that I don't want to represent personally. It's a loaded subject for me but I don't care what turns anyone on as long as they don't bug me about it. But bugging women because they turn men on is kind of a thing, especially if that thing is part of compulsory femeninity, so it's something to be aware of.

As for fairy tales, I don't think they are harmless kid's stuff at all. I've read Betelheim and the original Grimm! I like to study them like I do all folklore and mythology but they don't have anything to do with my modern life. I don't think it is fair to dismiss them as not worthy of serious consideration and discussion whether you like and relate to them or just look at them and go "hmm" like I do.

[lapushka]

I'm not creeped out, but I can see how it could be creepy! Context is everything. I mean, little kids comparing you to Rapunzel are not too likely to be letching at you. I agree the story has some pretty major issues, although seriously I'm not aware of any fairy tales that don't. The original or the Disney versions!

What is interesting about the Rapunzel story though, is that the girl was named after the plant that the mother craved. The original tale has a pregnant woman who is craving a salad green. Her husband breaks into the witch's garden to get it and is caught. He agrees to give her their baby in exchange for not killing them. The witch then names the baby after the salad green. So when we parody the tale - we are really calling out something like, "Lettuce, lettuce - Let down your hair!"

Picking the tale itself aside (and there is lots there!) - creepy peeps can make anything sound icky when accompanied by a leer and a smarmy tone of voice.

OMG Chromis, thank you so much for that little bit of laughter today. :lol: :spitting:

I sure could use it! :D

[embee]

There are people who will make *anything* s*xual. I had a friend who did this, and it amazed me what he'd find to s*xualize something. As said above, a lot depends on context. I never thought the story was bad, just a kids fairy tale. I've read many worse ones.

[Aredhel]

Context is definitely important. When my friends call me "rapunzel" in a lighthearted/endearing kind of way, it's sweet. When it's said to me in a predatory tone by a creepy man I don't even know, it's not okay. Just like everything else really.

[Mariekeeee14]

I don’t mind being called the R word, but it hasn’t happened yet. I do hate the s*xualising that surrounds it usually on Insta.

[Linden]

To me, it's like any other compliment. When given in a positive, non creepy way I will appreciate it in the light it was given, even if I don't feel particularly like a damsel in distress from an old fairy tail. If it is given in an inapropriate context, then of course I will be creeped out.

[AmaryllisRed]

There are people who will make *anything* s*xual. I had a friend who did this, and it amazed me what he'd find to s*xualize something. As said above, a lot depends on context. I never thought the story was bad, just a kids fairy tale. I've read many worse ones.

This makes me think of
https://youtu.be/FGC-lvCWsrM

[Entangled]

I have never been called Rapunzel in a way that makes me uncomfortable, though I can picture a situation where it would be unnerving.

I can understand why someone might take offense to the term, especially considering that in one older version, the prince impregnates her and she’s kicked out of the tower when she asks her mother why her body is changing. So yeah...there are definitely uncomfortable aspects in that story.

I’m not bothered by kids calling me Rapunzel because the kids I know will only have seen Tangled, and I love that Rapunzel as a character. They’re largely not familiar with the older stories. (I’m the only one I know who reads old stories including the gruesome bits to children). Interestingly enough, I’m called Elsa more often these days. (Probably because my hair’s usually in a braid and I put it up on my shoulder sometimes to get it out of the way and reduce the weight).

[Bat]

I almost feel like this topic was because of my floor +petition to have it called Rapunzel, it didn't even occur to me it can be offensive, to me it's a word everyone knows that means very long hair.
(I didn't even know hair F*Tish was an actual thing til joining LHC)

[jane_marie]

I almost feel like this topic was because of my floor +petition to have it called Rapunzel, it didn't even occur to me it can be offensive, to me it's a word everyone knows that means very long hair.

Nah, it was more due to one of the posts that MalePonytail (or whatever his name was) made. The posts together made me realize not everyone might associate it with the same things I do that's all.

[Bat]

Nah, it was more due to one of the posts that MalePonytail (or whatever his name was) made. The posts together made me realize not everyone might associate it with the same things I do that's all.

Oooh ok thanks for clearing that up xD

[BleachedBerry]

Im a fan of the story.
I feel like there is so much more to the story then just the appearance of her hair, but I understand thats what most take away from it.

[Belgrade Beauty]

When a creepy dude that has already expressed desire to brush and braid my hair says it, yes I am creeped out. Other than that, no, but mostly cause others don't use it. I personally don't like the word or the cartoon for that mater, but that's a whole other thing. :)

[Belgrade Beauty]

This makes me think of
https://youtu.be/FGC-lvCWsrM

I literally thought of the same thing! Hahahah

[Kat]

I don't think I've ever been called Rapunzel (well, by my mom, as a joke). Although I did have a kid come up to me in a store once and say in an awed voice, "You look like Elsa!" (I wear my hair in a single braid.) I thought that was funny. (I imagine we're in the day and age where we might hear things like that more than Rapunzel from kids.)



Okay, some possibly strange opinions incoming... :lol:

I think long hair IS something that has a *exual aspect to it, both culturally and more broadly. (It's also associated with femininity more generally, and then you can start getting into a big discussion of gendered cultural standards, but I'm mostly setting that aside for now.) I am particularly thinking of the attitudes expressed by Pre-Raphaelite artists (see a brief discussion here: http://preraphaelitesisterhood.com/enchanted-hair/, as well as a good more general post here: https://beautifulintheory.com/2014/04/01/cleopatra-was-a-redhead-a-history-of-hair/). In many cultures, hair is either covered or put up in some way, especially after marriage. Free-flowing hair on mature women clearly has this sort of connotation.


But not everyone grows their hair to be "attractive" or "feminine." (And not everyone is attractive or feminine just because they have long hair.) As is said, I'm not here to decorate anyone's world. So, I have no need to hear their opinions on my hair or why I may have it the way I do or how it affects them. Because it's not for them. (Or for their titillation.)



Im a fan of the story.
I feel like there is so much more to the story then just the appearance of her hair, but I understand thats what most take away from it.

I think that's the central theme, though. I mean, the whole point of the story is that people are climbing up her hair... if she had short hair, most of the story couldn't happen. Otherwise it's just another "yeah we locked away a pretty girl" story.

[AmaryllisRed]

I think I need to go back and read the original tale. My familiarity is based on the movie Tangled (actually more the soundtrack-- I've seen the movie once or twice but I really like the music from it) and a version with Kermit the Frog.
I had no idea about pregnancy or most of that other stuff. Although the stealing from the garden part is in Into the Woods. I never realized that was from the Rapunzel story. (Again with liking the music over the movie.)

[Chromis]

I think I need to go back and read the original tale. My familiarity is based on the movie Tangled (actually more the soundtrack-- I've seen the movie once or twice but I really like the music from it) and a version with Kermit the Frog.
I had no idea about pregnancy or most of that other stuff. Although the stealing from the garden part is in Into the Woods. I never realized that was from the Rapunzel story. (Again with liking the music over the movie.)

Stealing from the garden is a very, very common theme among many of these fairy tales! So is the trading away your first-born/newborn when you get caught in a crime. Beauty and the Beast is a bit different in that the merchant stole a rose for his youngest daughter and then has to trade her for his life instead. Rumpelstiltskin also has a similar deal (only the father is the one who lied, but the daughter is the one who trapped by the deal).

[Lady Stardust]

I’ve just re-read it. The version I have is Grimm’s Fairy Tales, it doesn’t say whether it’s original or adapted or abridged. My copy was published in 1981.

As Chromis said, a woman had such a craving for “rampion” that she would die unless she had a salad. Crazy. So the husband stole it, and agreed to give the witch who owned the garden their first born child. Rapunzel means rampion.

The witch locks her away but the Prince doesn’t save her. They “meet” every evening and she ends up pregnant with twins. Rapunzel lets slip to the witch that the King’s son has been visiting and the witch takes her to some barren land to leave her to fend for herself. The prince then climbs up to see Rapunzel but the witch is at the top of the tower. The prince “sprang” from the tower (does that mean he tried to kill himself?) and thorns blinded him when he landed. He eventually bumps into Rapunzel (literally, presumably) and the twins. Her tears heal his eyes. So really, she saves him.

[Lunnafindel]

I’ve just re-read it. The version I have is Grimm’s Fairy Tales, it doesn’t say whether it’s original or adapted or abridged. My copy was published in 1981.

As Chromis said, a woman had such a craving for “rampion” that she would die unless she had a salad. Crazy. So the husband stole it, and agreed to give the witch who owned the garden their first born child. Rapunzel means rampion.

The witch locks her away but the Prince doesn’t save her. They “meet” every evening and she ends up pregnant with twins. Rapunzel lets slip to the witch that the King’s son has been visiting and the witch takes her to some barren land to leave her to fend for herself. The prince then climbs up to see Rapunzel but the witch is at the top of the tower. The prince “sprang” from the tower (does that mean he tried to kill himself?) and thorns blinded him when he landed. He eventually bumps into Rapunzel (literally, presumably) and the twins. Her tears heal his eyes. So really, she saves him.

YESSS! THIS!! I came here to defend the tale of Rapunzel, which I think is actually a deeply empowering story for women. Basically all the major characters are women, the mother and father have such a supportive relationship that he's willing to risk his life for her pregnancy craving (#relationshipgoals), and as Lady Stardust just mentioned, Rapunzel saves the prince, not the other way around. The story I remember involves Rapunzel evicted from her tower, wandering through a desert with newborn twins looking for her prince (pretty bada$$, I'd say), and then when she finds him she heals him with her tears (I mean, there could be a little more agency there, but in a world full of sleeping beauties, I'll take it ;) )

There are very few female characters in any fairy tales that have the resiliency and agency of Rapunzel, and very few male characters who are either respectful of (like the father) or defeated by (like the prince) women, which is awesome.

And also Tangled the movie is great, but that's a totally different story so I'll leave it be.


All that aside, yes. the R-word used in common parlance is often overly se*ualized and especially those instagram accounts/websites...definitely not something I'd want to find myself on. I completely see your point, Jane Marie. But you gotta admire the original girl! Definitely one of my favorite fairy tales. :queen:

[hannabiss]

Guess it never crossed my mind to be offended by such a thing.

[Peonyrose]

One can find offence in probably every daily interaction and anything that exists. I for one would be really keen for these forums to stay free from the offence olympics which seem to be sweeping certain countries currently. An oasis of "hairy" help and discussion if you will! Love the help I've got from this place over the years, would hate to see things implode. Take care all - check out what happened in the knitting forums to see where the slippery slope can lead....

[jane_marie]

One can find offence in probably every daily interaction and anything that exists. I for one would be really keen for these forums to stay free from the offence olympics which seem to be sweeping certain countries currently. An oasis of "hairy" help and discussion if you will! Love the help I've got from this place over the years, would hate to see things implode. Take care all - check out what happened in the knitting forums to see where the slippery slope can lead....

I feel like I have been pretty gracious in this thread... but I also feel like this comment sort of attempts to invalidate how I feel about the term. As I explained within the thread, how I feel about the term is due to the fact that Repunzel is a tag for a bunch of weird unsettling p*rn (but not p*rn) featuring young women with long hair. The media that I took in I found especially objectifying and... well, not to K*nk shame but... creepy. In this circumstance, it is a word that is used by people with a f*tish for long hair in a way that I feel tarnishes any wholesomeness it had before that. To me it's a bit like how the word tr*nny is largely frowned upon because it was so heavily used by people who objectify or discriminate against transgender people (edit - not to say that the struggles of people that have especially long hair are equivalent to those of transgener individuals)

I can understand how, if you have not seen these videos (which can be found even on the most common video sharing sites) you might think that the opinion is part of the "offence olympics" but that really isn't the situation in this particular case.

[Kat]

I usually shy away from thinking I get to decide what is offensive to other people.

[jane_marie]

I usually shy away from thinking I get to decide what is offensive to other people.

...but I never asked if it was universally offensive. I asked how others personally feel about it. That's something different.

[Peonyrose]

Once people get into a "purity spiral" it's all over.

[Hildegarde]

Rapunzel is a culturally resonant character with considerably longer than average hair. Longer than average hair is remarkable; it’s hard to grow and maintain and most people don’t do it. Though I think I can understand to an extent—like I can see how it would be infantilizing to refer and frame adult women as a character from children’s literature/media. It’s not an argument I would necessarily make because I think it’s quite benign in and of itself. I think there’s something to be said about gender—gender roles dictate that women should have or aspire to long hair, and if we do we’re infantilized for it, because of how gender roles operate.

[Tinyponies]

Rapunzel is a culturally resonant character with considerably longer than average hair. Longer than average hair is remarkable; it’s hard to grow and maintain and most people don’t do it. Though I think I can understand to an extent—like I can see how it would be infantilizing to refer and frame adult women as a character from children’s literature/media. It’s not an argument I would necessarily make because I think it’s quite benign in and of itself. I think there’s something to be said about gender—gender roles dictate that women should have or aspire to long hair, and if we do we’re infantilized for it, because of how gender roles operate.
Agree with your principle however I personally totally don’t equate folk “fairy” tales with popular children’s medias. Give me the ancient stories grit gore and all. But then I could never stand anything Disney. :puke:

[Lady Stardust]

What struck me when I re-read the story yesterday was that it had very little to do with hair. The hair is barely mentioned except for practical use as a ladder. There’s a lot to take away from the story, but not about hair. Even the witch is trying to protect Rapunzel in an extremely misguided and wrong way. Yet the point that most of us remember is that Rapunzel had very long hair and was imprisoned in a tower. 40 years later I’d forgotten the rest of the story. Those finer points were probably lost on me as a child.

I think the existence of the website-that-shall-not-be-named is enough to creep out a lot of us, and so Rapunzel’s name has been given a new association.

[SleepyTangles]

One can find offence in probably every daily interaction and anything that exists. I for one would be really keen for these forums to stay free from the offence olympics which seem to be sweeping certain countries currently. An oasis of "hairy" help and discussion if you will! Love the help I've got from this place over the years, would hate to see things implode. Take care all - check out what happened in the knitting forums to see where the slippery slope can lead....

Your feelings are totally valid, but so are jane_marie. We can always agree to disagree :)
Her post was more "I feel this way, what are your toughts on the topic?",

[Peonyrose]

Your feelings are totally valid, but so are jane_marie. We can always agree to disagree :)
Her post was more "I feel this way, what are your toughts on the topic?",
Yes, no problems. Actually really love all the in depth analysis of the Rapunzel story. I'm just over sensitive given some of the stuff I've seen out there as aftermath, and I see these forums as being a bit of a out from all that aggro out there.

[jane_marie]

Yes, no problems. Actually really love all the in depth analysis of the Rapunzel story. I'm just over sensitive given some of the stuff I've seen out there as aftermath, and I see these forums as being a bit of a out from all that aggro out there.

I didn't say anything aggressive though.

Okay, clearly this is one of those situation where I need to not look at this thread anymore.

I have already apologized for asking in the first place and I have no idea what I have done to be "aggro".

If I could delete this thread I would.

[AmaryllisRed]

Seems like a big part of how people feel about the word is dependent on whether they've seen those creepy videos and comments.

[Lady Stardust]

Seems like a big part of how people feel about the word is dependent on whether they've seen those creepy videos and comments.

I think so. I’ve only seen a short part of a video and didn’t look at any comments and that was enough! The video was linked on this forum in a “wow look at this hair” kind of way.

[Kat]

...but I never asked if it was universally offensive. I asked how others personally feel about it. That's something different.

Right, but just because I don't find it offensive doesn't mean I'm going to tell you that you can't. I have no idea what someone else's experiences or triggers are. And I'm getting a little sick of other people trying to go on and on about "eeeeeeverybody is so offeeeeeeennnnnded by eeeeeeeeverything these days!" Well, lucky them if they have nothing to be offended about.



What struck me when I re-read the story yesterday was that it had very little to do with hair. The hair is barely mentioned except for practical use as a ladder. There’s a lot to take away from the story, but not about hair. Even the witch is trying to protect Rapunzel in an extremely misguided and wrong way. Yet the point that most of us remember is that Rapunzel had very long hair and was imprisoned in a tower. 40 years later I’d forgotten the rest of the story. Those finer points were probably lost on me as a child.

I think the existence of the website-that-shall-not-be-named is enough to creep out a lot of us, and so Rapunzel’s name has been given a new association.

Sure. It's exciting to think of someone who has super-long hair that someone can climb up. It's exciting to think about witches locking people away and handsome princes coming to visit. Kids don't really care much about details like premarital pregnancy, wandering in deserts, etc. And many people don't do too much reading of fairy tales in adulthood, so they probably only remember the "exciting" bits from their childhood.

[lapushka]

Taking offense to something or not is such a personal thing. I mean, you can hardly pass judgement on that alone. Just my 2cts.

jane_marie, totally get where you are coming from when you're talking about "those" sites, and videos and such. It churns my stomach. But I don't associate that with what to me is still basically just a Disney character. I don't let it tarnish the image (which is pure to me) that I still have. You can make a choice to do so, or not.

[MusicalSpoons]

Taking offense to something or not is such a personal thing. I mean, you can hardly pass judgement on that alone. Just my 2cts.

jane_marie, totally get where you are coming from when you're talking about "those" sites, and videos and such. It churns my stomach. But I don't associate that with what to me is still basically just a Disney character. I don't let it tarnish the image (which is pure to me) that I still have. You can make a choice to do so, or not.

I don't often flat out disagree with things in these subjective discussions, but here I do - it really is not always a choice (unfortunately). There are things and associations that I really, really wish I could unsee or unknow because I don't want those kinds of things in my mind at all - but I can't. I have a choice about lots of mental things, I generally have a choice about how I deal with stuff, but boy oh boy are there some things beyond my control. And some associations are so visceral and stick with us so strongly that we cannot remove or separate them. For some people, the name and the connotations of it in certain communities may well be such an association, that they can't just choose to ignore it.

[jane_marie]

Taking offense to something or not is such a personal thing. I mean, you can hardly pass judgement on that alone. Just my 2cts.

jane_marie, totally get where you are coming from when you're talking about "those" sites, and videos and such. It churns my stomach. But I don't associate that with what to me is still basically just a Disney character. I don't let it tarnish the image (which is pure to me) that I still have. You can make a choice to do so, or not.

I mean... I have severe ocd so I actually can't negative thought spirals are pretty much one of the most common symptoms. I'm also a human trafficking survivor so there is a bit of PTSD and an tendency to sympathize with people that are being objectified.

I don't bring the latter up very often here but it has shaped me into the human that I am. :shrug:

[jane_marie]

I have certainly worked on being mindful of both my ruminations and my sensitivity to triggers but there is a difference between being able to work on something vs being able to have control of it.

[lapushka]

Personally, I have come across "those" things once. Once. And I made a choice not to go there again. They are pretty easy to avoid. Especially if you only come here, to the LHC. In that sense, yes you choose to ignore it. I mean in all my years on the net, it's pretty tough to find, IMO. Yes there are longhairs on YT from this place, who don't effectively block the "wrong" people enough, IMO. But that is the extent of my exposure to that.

[MusicalSpoons]

Personally, I have come across "those" things once. Once. And I made a choice not to go there again. They are pretty easy to avoid. Especially if you only come here, to the LHC. In that sense, yes you choose to ignore it. I mean in all my years on the net, it's pretty tough to find, IMO. Yes there are longhairs on YT from this place, who don't effectively block the "wrong" people enough, IMO. But that is the extent of my exposure to that.

But that's the thing, we don't get to choose what's seared into our brains from one exposure, what's seared into our brains just from having the knowledge that something exists. We choose whether to seek out or continue viewing things after that first exposure, but we don't actually get to choose our initial sensitivity levels.

(I am talking in such general terms because I don't personally struggle with this topic, but I can empathise knowing that others do.)

[ynne]

jane_marie, if it means anything at all, what you wrote read to me as descriptions of your personal experience and genuine invitation to a discussion; I did not see you forcing it on anyone. I do not think you were aggressive about it at all, either. I don't think you did anything wrong by starting the thread. Also, despite having different mental health situation, I also experience fixations and spiralling thoughts that are really really really hard (sometimes impossible) to control, so... yeah. I get that this kind of stuff can make it a lot harder to break associations you'd rather forget. :/ It'd be great if it were so easy, though, wouldn't it?

Peonyrose, it may be worth taking a step back and realizing that you might be doing the exact thing you described as undesirable – i.e. "finding offence in daily interaction" with people who expressed something you personally can't relate to. There really is no need to invalidate experiences different from yours when you don't even know the full context, their reasons, etc.
:shrug:

[Kat]

I didn't say anything aggressive though.

Okay, clearly this is one of those situation where I need to not look at this thread anymore.

I have already apologized for asking in the first place and I have no idea what I have done to be "aggro".

If I could delete this thread I would.

FWIW, I thought they meant not that you were being "aggro" but that the world is, and that they like that this place isn't, so don't like to see reference to it here. But I could be wrong. I don't think you have anything to feel bad about. (ETA: and I don't think there's anything wrong with mentioning here that there are nasty things in the outside world. In fact, I would argue that part of what makes this good as a "safe space" if we choose to see it that way, is that we *can* discuss some of the nasty things here, but in a safe space rather than a place where we not only have to deal with the nasty things but also with other people's opinions about our feelings about those nasty things.)



I don't often flat out disagree with things in these subjective discussions, but here I do - it really is not always a choice (unfortunately). There are things and associations that I really, really wish I could unsee or unknow because I don't want those kinds of things in my mind at all - but I can't. I have a choice about lots of mental things, I generally have a choice about how I deal with stuff, but boy oh boy are there some things beyond my control. And some associations are so visceral and stick with us so strongly that we cannot remove or separate them. For some people, the name and the connotations of it in certain communities may well be such an association, that they can't just choose to ignore it.

The other thing is that I read it as also having some concern about the associations *other* people are making. It doesn't matter what I associate it with if some leering dude is calling me "Rapunzel" and thinking about those videos-- *that* is what will bother me, even if to me it's just a cutesy kiddie story.




Peonyrose, it may be worth taking a step back and realizing that you might be doing the exact thing you described as undesirable – i.e. "finding offence in daily interaction" with people who expressed something you personally can't relate to. There really is no need to invalidate experiences different from yours when you don't even know the full context, their reasons, etc.
:shrug:

Yes. That's basically what I was trying to say, except you said it better as everyone seems to have misunderstood what I was saying.

[Aerya]

Hey guys... This is a very subjective topic. How someone feels about this will be very dependent on the individual, experiences in the past, etc. There is no "right" way to feel about this. :flower:

I've never had such long hair anyone has called me Rapunzel, but I imagine generally speaking I would take it as a compliment that my hair is long and pretty, since, well, that's what I'm aiming for.

However, I absolutely understand that some might take offence considering how a lot of people will overtly se#ualize people with long hair in a totally inappropriate way. I've seen enough times on websites such as Reddit that girls will post pics of their long hair in an entirely neutral way, on a proper board to do so, only to have people approach them in a less than appropriate manner. If that's your association to the name, I perfectly understand being creeped out by it!

I also get how the various versions of the fairytale might make people uncomfortable with being called it. Gossamer explained this very well, as have others here. I doubt I would appreciate being put on a pedestal of sorts because of my hair, being made to fit into some random dude's narrative of what a woman should be, simply because my hair is long. Again, I've never had the experiences, but the mere thought makes me feel a bit iffy. I don't appreciate strangers projecting their fantasies onto me, se#ual or otherwise.

In terms of the se#ual parts, that's not to say fe#ishes are bad, either. To each their own! My issue with this is when people do it without their object's consent, forcing it upon them even though they might not be comfortable with it. If my DBF liked my hair in "that way" I wouldn't mind; however, I would prefer it if complete strangers online kept it to themselves, unless I myself had posted on a platform specifically catering to these things.

[meepster]

I think that if we are going to keep this forum blessedly free of yucky content and yucky s&xual stuff, what matters is not so much the individual terms being used, but the intent of the person using them and the context in which the term is used.

Just as an example, MalePonytail’s profile set off all my “s&xual yuck” detectors despite not containing the “R” word at all.

As for the Rapunzel story, I do think that most people simply think of it as a story about that girl with long long hair. The actual story does not s&xualize the hair at all, by the way.

[Jane99]

I appreciate this discussion as well as the atmosphere of this forum in general. On some of the other threads, members discussed the high emotions/ harassment they have experienced in association with the R name. It’s not about one taking offense but maintaining safe space, the harassment could happen to anyone. Any open discussion of boundaries is worth having. Perhaps this value of enforced respect is what makes this forum so much more different (safe, supportive, healthy) than other social media out there.

[florenonite]

But that's the thing, we don't get to choose what's seared into our brains from one exposure, what's seared into our brains just from having the knowledge that something exists. We choose whether to seek out or continue viewing things after that first exposure, but we don't actually get to choose our initial sensitivity levels.

(I am talking in such general terms because I don't personally struggle with this topic, but I can empathise knowing that others do.)

Yup, there are things I read (not watched, not experienced, just read) a decade ago that still sometimes resurface in my mind when I least expect it. Often these are things like news articles and novels, the kind of thing I can't avoid entirely. Sometimes it's just a single word or turn of phrase that pulls me back to whatever horrific thing I read about, and I can't break those associations in my head.

jane_marie, I've never encountered the use of the name Rapunzel in this particular context, but it doesn't surprise me that others might, and that the name itself is the word tied up irrevocably with the p*rn you saw tagged with it. I don't think you have anything to apologise for with this thread; you had strong, completely valid feelings, and asked if other people felt similarly. It's not your fault if other people view this thread as an opportunity to criticise.

[MusicalSpoons]

The other thing is that I read it as also having some concern about the associations *other* people are making. It doesn't matter what I associate it with if some leering dude is calling me "Rapunzel" and thinking about those videos-- *that* is what will bother me, even if to me it's just a cutesy kiddie story.

Yes, absolutely! While we may still be able to separate the two in our own minds, it's impossible to unknow that those associations and intentions exist. How much that affects us is a very individual thing and not something we have much control over.



Yup, there are things I read (not watched, not experienced, just read) a decade ago that still sometimes resurface in my mind when I least expect it. Often these are things like news articles and novels, the kind of thing I can't avoid entirely. Sometimes it's just a single word or turn of phrase that pulls me back to whatever horrific thing I read about, and I can't break those associations in my head.


Indeed - for me that's kind of lumped in with things we've seen; most of the things I wish I could erase from my mind have been what I've read taking me completely by surprise.

[oldrocker]

If another guy can crash this 'party', I remember our original Lady Godiva(whom I knew from TLHS) stating why so chose her sobriquet. She took that R character as a 'helpless' gender role, whereas LG was a fighter, advocate, cynic of the 'old' ways.

Summing up some of the other thoughts...it is so true, you cannot unsee what you have already seen. I know it's not my fault, but part of me wants to apologize on behalf of the huge pot of insensitive guys out there that don't think with their brain.(yeah...this doesn't cover the half of it). but, I'll leave it at that.

O.R.

[truepeacenik]

My image is from Fractured Fairy Tales (Rocky and Bullwinkle).
So sort of snarky, but nor seriously adult.

[lostchyld]

I think it's creepy. The entire story is creepy.

Part one: Rapunzel not just a prisoner, but traded into slavery by her parents. Thus implying that women have no value.
Part two: When her hair is cut, it fundamentally devalues her, and if that's not *exualization, I don't really know what is.
Part three: She's oblivious and implied to be content until she meets the man who "rescues" her. Thus, a man is needed to be happy.
And the witch evicts her once its discovered that she's interested in a man.

The entire story is a problem and offering people a pass who might have only seen the Disney crap, which is also problematic for many of the same reasons, doesn't help change the social issues that make it a problem. The story is creepy and there's no way to make it stop being creepy. I certainly don't want to be called by that name by anyone because of the ownership implied by the speaker.

It's not and never was a cute story for children, it was a story to scare girls into behaving and teach them that they need a man to survive. The values taught by that story are outdated, but sadly still way too common.

[elise.autumn]

This thread is fascinating. I agree with the benefit of having open discussion in a safe space about even uncomfortable topics.


Indeed - for me that's kind of lumped in with things we've seen; most of the things I wish I could erase from my mind have been what I've read taking me completely by surprise.

Or the terrible things someone else chooses to tell you about for no particular reason - like, why would you willingly ruin my innocence and paint a picture I can't erase when I try to fall asleep? This happened a few years ago, and to this day, the connections still linger in my mind, although lighter through time and prayer.

–

Slightly related - I highly recommend Disney's recent retelling of Rapunzel, Tangled. It's well done, and when she ultimately loses her hair, she retains everything important and her self-worth. It's honestly one of my favorite movies.

[Lunnafindel]

Haha Lostchyld it's funny how we take exactly the same story and get to completely different "meanings" out of it :grin:


I think it's creepy. The entire story is creepy.

Part one: Rapunzel not just a prisoner, but traded into slavery by her parents. Thus implying that women have no value.
Part two: When her hair is cut, it fundamentally devalues her, and if that's not *exualization, I don't really know what is.
Part three: She's oblivious and implied to be content until she meets the man who "rescues" her. Thus, a man is needed to be happy.
And the witch evicts her once its discovered that she's interested in a man.

The entire story is a problem and offering people a pass who might have only seen the Disney crap, which is also problematic for many of the same reasons, doesn't help change the social issues that make it a problem. The story is creepy and there's no way to make it stop being creepy. I certainly don't want to be called by that name by anyone because of the ownership implied by the speaker.

It's not and never was a cute story for children, it was a story to scare girls into behaving and teach them that they need a man to survive. The values taught by that story are outdated, but sadly still way too common.

vs


YESSS! THIS!! I came here to defend the tale of Rapunzel, which I think is actually a deeply empowering story for women. Basically all the major characters are women, the mother and father have such a supportive relationship that he's willing to risk his life for her pregnancy craving (#relationshipgoals), and as Lady Stardust just mentioned, Rapunzel saves the prince, not the other way around. The story I remember involves Rapunzel evicted from her tower, wandering through a desert with newborn twins looking for her prince (pretty bada$$, I'd say), and then when she finds him she heals him with her tears (I mean, there could be a little more agency there, but in a world full of sleeping beauties, I'll take it ;) )

There are very few female characters in any fairy tales that have the resiliency and agency of Rapunzel, and very few male characters who are either respectful of (like the father) or defeated by (like the prince) women, which is awesome.


They're total opposites! :rolling:I guess that's what stories are for - to bring meaning into our everyday lives. Every telling of the story is different -the "facts" may remain the same (1. mother wants plant 2. daughter is given to witch 3. prince climbs hair 4. girl is expelled 5. girl and prince are reunited) but the details you add/how you ascribe motivation/how you moralize it at the end can change from telling to telling. Just look at the two versions of the original Grimm Fairy Tale book (https://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm012a.html). Another completely different meaning of the story could be that no matter what you do, you can't control teenagers, even if you try to lock them in a tower!

All this is a side note to Jane Marie's original question, but now all I really want in the world is a retelling of the story from the witch's perspective... :writer:

[gossamer]

All this is a side note to Jane Marie's original question, but now all I really want in the world is a retelling of the story from the witch's perspective... :writer:[/COLOR]

This novel has some of that: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54356.Zel#

It's very good, and psychologically very complex, as most excellent YA fiction is.

[Lunnafindel]

OMG yes! I'd forgotten about that book but I read it when I was 10 and LOVED it. Donna Jo Napoli does a whole series of "from the villain's perspective" books and I loved every one :)

[jane_marie]

A bit off topic but Neil Gaiman retold Snow White from the perspective of the stepmother. I haven't read it but I've been meaning to.

Snow, Glass, Apples (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6366271-snow-glass-apples)

[PallasAthena]

Into the Woods has a bit of the witch's perspective. I only saw the Broadway version (well, the one aired on PBS with Bernadette Peters as the witch) not the movie. The stage musical was great.

[ynne]

Into the Woods has a bit of the witch's perspective. I only saw the Broadway version (well, the one aired on PBS with Bernadette Peters as the witch) not the movie. The stage musical was great.

The first half of the movie is fun, the second half, I think, kind of loses direction. But it's got really great, catchy songs. :) I usually don't care for musicals but I love these.

[Lunnafindel]

A bit off topic but Neil Gaiman retold Snow White from the perspective of the stepmother. I haven't read it but I've been meaning to.

Snow, Glass, Apples (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6366271-snow-glass-apples)

WHAT. Neil Gaimon wrote a Snow White story?!? How did I not know about this! Must. Read. :joy:

[Natalia_A00]

I have nothing against the character of Rapunzel (I like the Disney movie a lot), but I can see how someone could feel uncomfortable with that term. I personally don't mind it, but I have seen a lot of creepy f***shists using that word and now it's weird to be called that

[CuteCrow]

I have to say I'm completely at lost about the creepy videos people are talking about here. Is it about that youtube channel with the R name on it? If that's so, I also feel like it totally s*xualize the name. It doesn't make me feel the creeps towards the name though and the videos either, but it certainly makes me feel kind of uncomfortable as I'm clearly not their target audience. Women being objectified by this kind of media is a larger issue beyond hair videos but maybe here it's not the place to discuss that.

I have mostly seen Rapunzel's history like any other old one. We can't hold it to today's standards (just for a start, it seemed like a common occurrence in those stories selling your child to pay for your wrongdoings :rolleyes: ) and of course there's a ton of things wrong with it.
As for the name itself, I feel like most people here, It would depend on who is saying it and how. I feel like most people just relate the name to a "woman with long hair" and I mostly would see it as innofensive.
And to add to that, I've seen a lot of creeps on long-haired Instagram pages and never seen any of them using the R name, more like being really direct or saying completely unsolicited stuff, but that's just my experience.

[Dung Beetle]

An article I saw today which I thought might be of interest to readers of this thread: https://www.tor.com/2020/07/17/forbidden-desire-and-locked-doors-the-origins-of-rapunzel/

[Lady Stardust]

An article I saw today which I thought might be of interest to readers of this thread: https://www.tor.com/2020/07/17/forbidden-desire-and-locked-doors-the-origins-of-rapunzel/

Interesting! Thank you for sharing it.