do silicones do long-term damage? or do they just "build up"?

[AuNaturel]

I'm rethinking my relationship with silicones, as a 3c corkscrew girl who can't grow past shoulder length (waist-length stretched).

What's wrong with letting silicones build up? Will it damage the hair? Does it seal out moisture, so the hair would dry out and -- what? Split? Break? Can you moisturize hair through silicones? And give it a sulfate shampoo once every 3 months, for example.

Anyone who has had success stopping silicones, what improved and why?

[lapushka]

The only thing stopping with all types of silicones (even water soluble) did for me was knot up my hair like you would not believe. And it was "only" BSL at the time. I could not go beyond that leaving them out!

Even if you don't "believe" in hair care with them, with long hair? I think you can avoid a lot of mechanical wear and tear if you just use the water soluble ones, even just spaced out.

I think they're really beneficial if used the proper way, which means you can *not* let them build up on your hair. But I am not going to say anything on how much it is you need to clarify-wash. If you want to do once every 3 months. Why not.

For me, personally, once a month should be fine if you wash say weekly. If you wash more, I'd do 2 times a month. But I continue to break my own rules, and clarify weekly, just because I use gel and stylers on my lengths, I do suds up my lengths. I didn't used to do that weekly (just let the suds run down), only maybe say once a month and I was just fine!

I think "moisture not penetrating silicones" is nonsense. You can have a head full of silicones and be out in the rain and get soaked in no-time. ;)

[AuNaturel]

I think they're really beneficial if used the proper way, which means you can *not* let them build up on your hair.

Thank you! This is exactly my question. WHY can't we let them build up? Does the buildup itself cause damage? Or does it just start looking gunky? What exactly about the buildup of silicones is harmful to the hair?

[Ylva]

Thank you! This is exactly my question. WHY can't we let them build up? Does the buildup itself cause damage? Or does it just start looking gunky? What exactly about the buildup of silicones is harmful to the hair?

Almost anything can build up on the hair, not just silicones. Shea butter is probably the worst thing for me in terms of buildup. Now, I'm not the most experienced person when it comes to the subject, but for me personally, buildup means that my hair gets sticky and disgusting and conditioner "doesn't work".

[lapushka]

Almost anything can build up on the hair, not just silicones. Shea butter is probably the worst thing for me in terms of buildup. Now, I'm not the most experienced person when it comes to the subject, but for me personally, buildup means that my hair gets sticky and disgusting and conditioner "doesn't work".

Yes, and I use plenty of stylers with butters in, which is why I have started to suds up my lengths every wash. I don't get why silicones get demonized though, because they are wonderful (even on the skin).

[lapushka]

Thank you! This is exactly my question. WHY can't we let them build up? Does the buildup itself cause damage? Or does it just start looking gunky? What exactly about the buildup of silicones is harmful to the hair?

I will have to owe you that answer, because... beats me. But try sometime, to not clarify for a while, and you will feel it!

[AmaryllisRed]

I use silicones. I tried not to and my hair was like straw. I don't clarify, either. My hair isn't gunky or anything.
I think everyone's hair is different. I think if you have a problem, you know it and you can do things to try and fix it. And if not, don't worry about it.
I don't think people "secretly" have hair problems and don't know it.

[lapushka]

AmaryllisRed, you have a point. I mean, I do clarify on a regular basis. I have a problematic scalp and I just want clean hair after my stylers, but is it really necessary that often?

When is someone to clarify? I mean, you feel it after a while, I guess. You know your hair best.

I guess that is why whenever someone posts that there's something "wrong", knotty, tangly, velcro hair, that we usually *all* say to clarify.

[Mariekeeee14]

I’m still experimenting with no silicones and the reason for it was that I couldn’t hydrate my hair properly. I do notice that my hair is less protected but right now it’s in the best condition it has ever been. I am however debating the same question you are. Am I gonna use water soluble silicones on my ends to protect them? I’m not sure yet.

[lapushka]

I’m still experimenting with no silicones and the reason for it was that I couldn’t hydrate my hair properly. I do notice that my hair is less protected but right now it’s in the best condition it has ever been. I am however debating the same question you are. Am I gonna use water soluble silicones on my ends to protect them? I’m not sure yet.

A serum or a siliconey leave-in on the very tippy tips of the hair probably couldn't hurt and it's very protective for those delicate ends!

[Dark40]

There is no scientific evidence that says silicone does any long-term damage to the hair. It did say that it creates build up. Anything creates build up on the hair. I use silicones on my hair all of the time and when I do I wait 5-7 days, and use a clarifying shampoo. Or, a shampoo with sulfates in it. Yes, you can also moisturize your hair with silicones in it.

[lapushka]

There is no scientific evidence that says silicone does any long-term damage to the hair. It did say that it creates build up. Anything creates build up on the hair. I use silicones on my hair all of the time and when I do I wait 5-7 days, and use a clarifying shampoo. Or, a shampoo with sulfates in it. Yes, you can also moisturize your hair with silicones in it.

^^ Totally agree with the bolded part! :)

[Shorty89]

Yes, and I use plenty of stylers with butters in, which is why I have started to suds up my lengths every wash. I don't get why silicones get demonized though, because they are wonderful (even on the skin).

I love silicones in lotion for my skin but my hair hates them. Why? Who knows! :lol:

[MusicalSpoons]

Thank you! This is exactly my question. WHY can't we let them build up? Does the buildup itself cause damage? Or does it just start looking gunky? What exactly about the buildup of silicones is harmful to the hair?

Y'know, I think the demonisation came about from being lied to by haircare companies, claiming split ends can be repaired and that (coney) shampoos and conditioners strengthened and moisturised hair, when one of the big things was that they were covering up damage and actively not helping when the buildup makes it seem like nothing works - so we feel our only option is to cut off the 'dead hair' when all it needed was a jolly good clean. So then we ditch silicones in disgust and to see how our hair really is ... and then what happens next depends on our own hair.

Though if buildup consistently stops conditioners 'working' like Ylva mentioned, then I guess that could mean it's not being effectively moisturised and in extremis end up dry and damaged over time. [I know there's one member whose hair hates silicones and splits and dries out within a couple of uses, but that does seem to be rare.]

Personally, I discovered texture in my hair when I gave up silicones, and even non-buildupy cones were a bit much for it. However I'm not sure they really built up on my hair before LHC, and I do remember being able to sleep in a ponytail and not having too much trouble brushing it the next morning - I don't know how much of that was thanks to silicones preventing tangles by themselves, and how much of that was silicones straightening out my hair and thus minimising tangles. My haircare has been completely overhauled since being here though, so I can't really do a straight comparison between then and now because so many factors are different. I don't mind the odd water-soluble silicone now; there's one in my HG conditioner but it's low down on the ingredients list, and there's one in my protein conditioner too (so I try not to use both in the same wash). But plant oils have made the biggest difference for me after basically giving up cones (and I don't get much buildup with my weekly routine of oil-C-W-ROO-C; I find I need to clarify maybe two or three times a year at most - and not even with a sulphate shampoo, literally just shampooing the lengths properly).


Edit to add:

I love silicones in lotion for my skin but my hair hates them. Why? Who knows! :lol:

Lol, my skin breaks out in fluid blisters (the type you get in dyshidrotic eczema) if I use cream or lotion with cones in more than a couple of times! My hair is rather more easy-going in that respect :laugh:

[Bri-Chan]

I do use cones. In my 8 and half years of experience in hair caring I was silicone free for about 5 years. In the last years I come back to them and I experienced a lot, and there are my conclusions (on my hair obviously). Oh and I am of the team "The single ingredient is not the whole formula".
So:
- my hair doesn't feel any difference in using cones or not.
- as long as I keep using sulfates every other wash (but I usually like sulfates a lot) I don't experience any build up.
- I have build up not because of cones, but because I'm using styling products (since february) and both with or without cones create a film on my hair. Never had build up before, and I rarely shampooed my lengths and ends.
- I find easier to find a good coney shampoo than a good organic shampoo for my sensitive scalp.


-------

For the skin, some months ago I found my HG face cream. Its formulation could be described as anti-organic :lol: and ehi, it feels like created for my skin.

[Hexana]

I didn't do mutch research before, but I did always start to notice that when I used masks or conditioners with cones, that they made my hair feel great at first. But after 3 or 4 weeks my hair was getting dryer and dryer. So I stopped using things with cones and I don't notice that happening anymore (except when using things that have a lot of shea or cocoa butter). But I admit I did not clarify at all when I was using cones.

[hennalonghair]

I’m one of the ones whose hair dries out completely when using them. They work for ‘maybe’ half at day tops . Then they prevent moisture from penetrating into my hair. They create a barrier which does damages and ruins my texture.
I use light oils and leave in conditioners. Plus I moisturize my ends everyday. I have to. My hair is coarse and naturally dry.
Sooo I use all natural hair care products.

[Fimu]

Good question! For me, build-up means less good product adsorption, which I notice when the slip of my favorite detangler is reduced and my hair feels textured or velcro-y when wet. And more friction increases the risk of mechanical damage, so in that case build-up could aggravate damage.

Other things in products than water-insoluble silicones can build up too, such as polyquats, viscous oils (e.g. castor) and butters. And heavy pre-poo treatments might build up too, as well as limescale in your water.

Many curlies and wavies on FB/IG with a cone-free routine still have to clarify like once a month.

I started getting back into silicones since an ample year ago because I haven't noticed any improvement in my porosity based on the hair analyses I've done (but I didn't knew back then that minor nutrient deficiencies might have played a role too)

I currently try to build a solid routine with a silicone detangler (Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone) and a silicone/petro oil cream (dimethicone, cyclopentasiloxane, mineral oil, peteolatum). After a clarifying wash, I could get away with one cowash (good product adsorption), but I just started to notice a bit of build-up in the 2nd cowash session. I still want to try to restrict my clarifying washes because they're too drying for my hair for regular use, but I can consider trying diluted clarifying shampoos in between.
Botrom line: I'm still working on finding a balance in build-up management.

My normal/dry scalp is fine with cowashing, but I'm picky with buying a new low-poo because I suspect I got an itchy scalp from a basic low-poo with cocamidopropyl betaine.

[Lucy McLucyFace]

One thing that's important to understand is what a build up really looks like. Since you have coily hair you should know from experience what it looks like when you apply way too much styling product. Not exactly a silent killer

Another thing that was important for me to understand is what is a clarifying shampoo. For the longest time I thought it was some sort of thing I had never come across until I found out where I'm from they're marketed as normal shampoos and they have the exact same formulation

[lapushka]

I love silicones in lotion for my skin but my hair hates them. Why? Who knows! :lol:

It's like me and hair & toothpaste. Sulfates in haircare (and bodycare): fine. But OMG not in my toothpaste! Not even the milder surfactants. I need 0 detergents there. My gums go all weird and my teeth get super sensitive.

It's funny how that is, right? :)

[lapushka]

I’m one of the ones whose hair dries out completely when using them. They work for ‘maybe’ half at day tops . Then they prevent moisture from penetrating into my hair. They create a barrier which does damages and ruins my texture.
I use light oils and leave in conditioners. Plus I moisturize my ends everyday. I have to. My hair is coarse and naturally dry.
Sooo I use all natural hair care products.

What does it really mean when you say they prevent moisture from penetrating? Does your hair not get wet when you wet it when there's silicones in there? I'm puzzled. Because it should. :flower: :)

[Fimu]

What does it really mean when you say they prevent moisture from penetrating? Does your hair not get wet when you wet it when there's silicones in there? I'm puzzled. Because it should. :flower: :)

Agree! I think what people mean with "build-up blocking off moisture" is that the build-up inhibits the attachment (adsorption) of the product (like conditioner) onto the hair.

An example: the positively charged minerals in hard water (Calcium and Magnesium) compete with the positively charged conditioner ions like Cetrimonium Chloride because they both attach to the hair, especially the porous parts.

Silicones (as well as vegetable oils and aloe vera) can form a film over the hair,
but I think that depends on the molecular size (which varies under the same name like Dimethicone), which may also inhibit attachment of conditioning agents, but that film doesn't block off all the water ("true moisture") as if it's a raincoat.

[lapushka]

Agree! I think what people mean with "build-up blocking off moisture" is that the build-up inhibits the attachment (adsorption) of the product (like conditioner) onto the hair.

An example: the positively charged minerals in hard water (Calcium and Magnesium) compete with the positively charged conditioner ions like Cetrimonium Chloride because they both attach to the hair, especially the porous parts.

Silicones (as well as vegetable oils and aloe vera) can form a film over the hair,
but I think that depends on the molecular size (which varies under the same name like Dimethicone), which may also inhibit attachment of conditioning agents, but that film doesn't block off all the water ("true moisture") as if it's a raincoat.

Ah then there's a little bit of miscommunication there. But how can you tell the difference between it being build-up and silicones. I mean, I clarify weekly at every wash and I have 0 issues with silicones. Maybe the not penetrating part is just due to build up then?

[Fimu]

Ah then there's a little bit of miscommunication there. But how can you tell the difference between it being build-up and silicones. I mean, I clarify weekly at every wash and I have 0 issues with silicones. Maybe the not penetrating part is just due to build up then?

Tbh, for myself I don't know whether the build-up is caused by silicones or by something else like minerals or oils or cationic conditioning agents. But product (not necessarily moisture) not penetrating sufficiently is indeed due to build-up by whatever culprit.

I prefer not to clarify my hair every wash because it's too drying for me, so I have to find out how long I can stretch shampooing despite using cones (I cannot let go of them because I think they perform better wet detangling than vegetable oils).

I hope my explanation makes sense.

[Dark40]

^^ Totally agree with the bolded part! :)

Great! I'm glad you agree with the bolded part! :) Because, I've done it soooo many times!

[shelomit]

What does it really mean when you say they prevent moisture from penetrating? Does your hair not get wet when you wet it when there's silicones in there? I'm puzzled. Because it should. :flower: :)

This is precisely how my hair behaves when I get too much build-up! Even ordinarily, it takes my hair a long time to get fully wet. I have to either soak my hair in the tub for several minutes, or spend the same amount of time running my fingers through it under the shower. Otherwise, just the "outside" of the hair will get wet and there will still be dry sections scattered throughout. I know it's time for a shampoo when it starts feeling like my hair is actively repelling water. It feels like it just runs straight off. I also notice that my hair doesn't feel as heavy as it ought to when it's wet.

I should point out that it takes a pretty long time for my hair to feel like that (at least a few months without a detergent-y wash), but once the build-up reaches that point it's a dramatic change in how my hair behaves. I have no problem using coney conditioners on a weekly basis, provided that I rinse my hair thoroughly. Leave-ins or styling products are a no-no. They make the whole build-up process happen faster.

So much of this stuff is clearly YMMV. I suspect I'm a pretty extreme case in terms of how my hair's behavior changes after too much build-up.AuNaturel, there's no rule saying you have to be silicone-heavy or silicone-free. Just experiment and see what your hair reacts favorably to!

[lapushka]

Tbh, for myself I don't know whether the build-up is caused by silicones or by something else like minerals or oils or cationic conditioning agents. But product (not necessarily moisture) not penetrating sufficiently is indeed due to build-up by whatever culprit.

I prefer not to clarify my hair every wash because it's too drying for me, so I have to find out how long I can stretch shampooing despite using cones (I cannot let go of them because I think they perform better wet detangling than vegetable oils).

I hope my explanation makes sense.

It does! :D Thank you for explaining! :) :thumbsup:

[lapushka]

This is precisely how my hair behaves when I get too much build-up! Even ordinarily, it takes my hair a long time to get fully wet. I have to either soak my hair in the tub for several minutes, or spend the same amount of time running my fingers through it under the shower. Otherwise, just the "outside" of the hair will get wet and there will still be dry sections scattered throughout. I know it's time for a shampoo when it starts feeling like my hair is actively repelling water. It feels like it just runs straight off. I also notice that my hair doesn't feel as heavy as it ought to when it's wet.

I should point out that it takes a pretty long time for my hair to feel like that (at least a few months without a detergent-y wash), but once the build-up reaches that point it's a dramatic change in how my hair behaves. I have no problem using coney conditioners on a weekly basis, provided that I rinse my hair thoroughly. Leave-ins or styling products are a no-no. They make the whole build-up process happen faster.

So much of this stuff is clearly YMMV. I suspect I'm a pretty extreme case in terms of how my hair's behavior changes after too much build-up.AuNaturel, there's no rule saying you have to be silicone-heavy or silicone-free. Just experiment and see what your hair reacts favorably to!

Yes it is YMMV! :D Not everyone clarifies a lot. Not everyone uses silicones. There may be mineral oils, butters, other oils at play, stylers and gels even.

It is, in part, why I clarify so much. I don't want to risk it... you know? :)

[auburntressed]

I’ve never paid much attention to whether my shampoos have silicone in them or not. Though my hair tends to hate any and all conditioner I run across. It makes my hair feel gooey and greasy.

I just went to check the ingredients of my standard go-to shampoo that I always return to whenever I have had my fill of whatever thing I am experimenting with. That is Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Special. It does, indeed, have dimethicone in it.

I am currently working my way through function of beauty, which has been fine. No complaints, but also not remarkably better than my default. Again, I found that my hair hates the conditioner.

I ordered silicone free for my next set, and I am actually pretty excited to test out what my hair does with a silicone free formula, including a silicone free conditioner. Maybe it will make a difference in how my hair responds to conditioner, or maybe not? Can’t wait to find out.

[Bri-Chan]

I’ve never paid much attention to whether my shampoos have silicone in them or not. Though my hair tends to hate any and all conditioner I run across. It makes my hair feel gooey and greasy.

I just went to check the ingredients of my standard go-to shampoo that I always return to whenever I have had my fill of whatever thing I am experimenting with. That is Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Special. It does, indeed, have dimethicone in it.

I am currently working my way through function of beauty, which has been fine. No complaints, but also not remarkably better than my default. Again, I found that my hair hates the conditioner.

I ordered silicone free for my next set, and I am actually pretty excited to test out what my hair does with a silicone free formula, including a silicone free conditioner. Maybe it will make a difference in how my hair responds to conditioner, or maybe not? Can’t wait to find out.

I think that if your hair doesn't like conditioners, you should just consider to not using them. You are not the first person I "meet" with this problem.

[florenonite]

Thank you! This is exactly my question. WHY can't we let them build up? Does the buildup itself cause damage? Or does it just start looking gunky? What exactly about the buildup of silicones is harmful to the hair?

I don't think build up itself *causes* damage, but it often leads to tangling, which will cause damage. That's one of the big reasons to clarify if you're noticing build up - the other being that it just plain feels gross.

ETA:


I’ve never paid much attention to whether my shampoos have silicone in them or not. Though my hair tends to hate any and all conditioner I run across. It makes my hair feel gooey and greasy.


I just went to check the ingredients of my standard go-to shampoo that I always return to whenever I have had my fill of whatever thing I am experimenting with. That is Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Special. It does, indeed, have dimethicone in it.


I am currently working my way through function of beauty, which has been fine. No complaints, but also not remarkably better than my default. Again, I found that my hair hates the conditioner.


I ordered silicone free for my next set, and I am actually pretty excited to test out what my hair does with a silicone free formula, including a silicone free conditioner. Maybe it will make a difference in how my hair responds to conditioner, or maybe not? Can’t wait to find out.

There's nothing that says you HAVE to use conditioner. I grew my hair to hip length just using a sulfate shampoo and no conditioner, and it was in great condition. Like you, any time I conditioned it left my hair feeling lank and greasy. I've only started using conditioner since I've moved to somewhere with very hard water, and for some reason my hair isn't happy without it anymore.

[hennalonghair]

What does it really mean when you say they prevent moisture from penetrating? Does your hair not get wet when you wet it when there's silicones in there? I'm puzzled. Because it should. :flower: :)
Basically YES all while my hair is suffocating from dryness. Cones are horrible in my hair. They dry it out faster than anything. They only work for less than a day and do more damage than good ..... to MY hair.
Ive got exceptional strange, fussy hair. Lol

[Fimu]

I don't think build up itself *causes* damage, but it often leads to tangling, which will cause damage. That's one of the big reasons to clarify if you're noticing build up - the other being that it just plain feels gross.


I can relate to that build-up can lead to tangles/velcro ends, which indeed leads to increased mechanical damage/wear and tear.

Another sensory effect that build-up can cause is making the hair feel stiff, but I doubt whether higher stiffness always equals increased brittleness, but I have insufficient knowledge about material sciences to explain why it isn't always correlated with each other.


Basically YES all while my hair is suffocating from dryness. Cones are horrible in my hair. They dry it out faster than anything. They only work for less than a day and do more damage than good ..... to MY hair.
Ive got exceptional strange, fussy hair. Lol

Could it be that the hennaed hair reacts differently to it?

[shelomit]

Could it be that the hennaed hair reacts differently to it?

My hair has been hennaed since childhood and gets along with silicones fine. *shrug*

[Finda]

That's an interesting topic. When I first did some research on my hair problems (maybe 10 years ago?) I always came across the claim that silicones are just an illusion.
That they coat your hair with an impenetrable layer and that underneath your hair would secretly rot off (to paraphrase very freely some stuff I've read).
However, I couldn't find any legitimate studies that would proof such a thing. And many of the studies or articles that were cited seemed to be pseudo scientific and ideologically charged.

For the moment I have found a routine that works without slilicones (and for environmental reasons I'm glad about it, that's another subject however).
But if that routine stopped working, I would probably revert back to them.
Several attempts to go completely organic with my haircare didn't work out and my experience is also that nothing sticks to the hair indefinitely.
Claryfinig shampoos help when the hair gets coated and sometimes it seems enough to just change shampoos and conditioners for some washes.
In the past, shampoos and conditioners with silicones and without them have caused my hair to be sticky, probably for different reasons though :confused:.

[hennalonghair]

I can relate to that build-up can lead to tangles/velcro ends, which indeed leads to increased mechanical damage/wear and tear.

Another sensory effect that build-up can cause is making the hair feel stiff, but I doubt whether higher stiffness always equals increased brittleness, but I have insufficient knowledge about material sciences to explain why it isn't always correlated with each other.



Could it be that the hennaed hair reacts differently to it?
See my avatar? I’ve got silver and light auburn hair. It’s all natural. It’ will be 5 years this August since I’ve hennaed it and I currently have no more henna in my hair. My hair is very coarse and very porous so soaks up hair conditioners and things. At first my hair is super slippery and hydrated but the next day my hair will be dried out. No moisture can get into my hair shaft. The texture gets very straw - like. Luckily I don’t use many products in my hair so rarely clarify my hair. Maybe every 4 months I might wash all my hair. Usually I just wash my scalp with shampoo and wash the rest of my hair with conditioner. I use natural light oils and a dollop of leave - in to the ends everyday . My ends will get springy curls. Now my ends aren’t nearly as dry as they used to be

[lapushka]

See my avatar? I’ve got silver and light auburn hair. It’s all natural. It’ will be 5 years this August since I’ve hennaed it and I currently have no more henna in my hair. My hair is very coarse and very porous so soaks up hair conditioners and things. At first my hair is super slippery and hydrated but the next day my hair will be dried out. No moisture can get into my hair shaft. The texture gets very straw - like. Luckily I don’t use many products in my hair so rarely clarify my hair. Maybe every 4 months I might wash all my hair. Usually I just wash my scalp with shampoo and wash the rest of my hair with conditioner. I use natural light oils and a dollop of leave - in to the ends everyday . My ends will get springy curls. Now my ends aren’t nearly as dry as they used to be

What if you clarified a little more? Would that help? Have you tried?

[hennalonghair]

What if you clarified a little more? Would that help? Have you tried?
But if my hair tries out within a day of using cones, it would mean I’d need to clarify everyday. That would probably dry my hair out even more. I actually did quite a bit of experimenting with different types of cones and amounts of them. Get this; oddly enough if I use cones on my scalp, it will get all greasy and I have to wash it more. My skin will break out in pimples. I’m 60. I’ve had my pimple days already and don’t want them again. My hair is unusually temperamental.

Even our hair is so similar yet it’s needs are so different.
Thanks all the same. I did find that some of the smaller molecule silicones weren’t as drying but for the most part I leave them alone.

I do however understand that most people are helped greatly by them. Just not me.

[Fimu]

My hair is very coarse and very porous so soaks up hair conditioners and things. At first my hair is super slippery and hydrated but the next day my hair will be dried out. No moisture can get into my hair shaft. The texture gets very straw - like.

I saw the silvers on your avatar, but I couldn't see clearly whether you still had henna on your length or not.

Ah yes, I can see how the coarse texture can make the hair appear too strawlike/dry by increased stiffness. And high-porosity hair can also be prone to build-up by clinging too much to product or minerals.

But I was just curious what factors could cause the hair not doing well with silicones, but it's still very YMMV.

[hennalonghair]

Thanks. Sorry but what does YMMV mean?

[Duchess Fuzzy Buns]

Thanks. Sorry but what does YMMV mean?
Ymmv= your mileage may vary :flower:

[lapushka]

Ymmv= your mileage may vary :flower:

Yes it is said here to mean different strokes for different folks. Just so we realize we aren't and can't be all the same, but still accepting of each other! :) :flower: