Dealing with damage :(

[xoAshley]

How do you do it?! Awhile back I posted about moving to a new home with hard water. (I’m talking the kind that leaves the thick white calcium buildup on your faucets.) I had never lived with hard water before and didn’t give it much thought. I kept using my gentle natural shampoo and went about my days. Fast forward 6 months, I had terrible breakage and a chunk of hair in the back of my head that was literally ear length on my BSL length hair. The mineral buildup caught up to me from using shampoos that had no kind of stripping agents in them and it made my hair terribly brittle. I got a whole house water softener stat and changed to a harsher shampoo with sulfates, and started chelating regularly, but the damage was done. From brushing my hair All the time while in that brittle state not really knowing what damage I was causing until it was beyond too late. I caused myself a lot of midshaft white dots. I had no choice but to cut back to above the shoulder. I am now at collarbone length but still dealing with the damage because cutting it back to above shoulder did not get rid of all the damage, but I refuse to go any shorter. I need to figure this out and find a way to grow out the damage. It’s hard though because any brushing, combing, etc easily breaks off those weak points. I’m growing very frustrated as I’ve never had to deal with such a thing before and I just want to be able to enjoy my hair again!!!

I just needed to rant and hopefully others who are dealing with breakage and damage can let me know what they do to cope and continue growing and hopefully finally achieve healthy hair again.

[Shorty89]

I haven't had damage that bad from hard water, but I know that I get more tangles and splits from the hard water at my parents house. If the water softener doesn't do enough, you could also try an ACV rinse. Have you tried cutting out damage on individual hairs (S&D)?

[xoAshley]

Luckily the softener does help, I can tell the difference on the new growth, but the old damage is there and obviously can’t be fixed by the softener :( I do try to s&d when I can, I should probably try to do it more. Thank you for your reply.

[Lady Stardust]

Can you try to limit brushing and combing? It would be less damaging (I think) to try stick to detangling when you have conditioner in your hair, then rinse it out and try not to touch it. Let the wavy clumps form and stay in place as much as possible until wash day,

If you do need to detangle in between, try and pull the tangles apart gently, sideways, rather than brushing or combing them.

I get a lot less breakage when I finger detangle. It makes me more aware of the amount of pressure I’m putting on my hair.

[xoAshley]

I do seem to have better luck detangling in the shower with conditioner, my problem definitely is when it’s dry and I try to detangle before bed. I lightly finger comb and I can still hear snapping :shudder: are you suggesting I skip trying to even finger comb then and just leave it all be until wash day? I was worried if I let tangles go it would cause more breakage but what I’m doing now isn’t helping either clearly.

[Lady Stardust]

I do seem to have better luck detangling in the shower with conditioner, my problem definitely is when it’s dry and I try to detangle before bed. I lightly finger comb and I can still hear snapping :shudder: are you suggesting I skip trying to even finger comb then and just leave it all be until wash day? I was worried if I let tangles go it would cause more breakage but what I’m doing now isn’t helping either clearly.

Yes, if you can, try and leave it until wash day. That’s easier said than done sometimes, but if you try not to disturb the clumps hopefully they won’t tangle together.

Personally, I could only do that if I put my hair up a lot, and certainly whenever I left the house. It would tangle if I left it loose when I walked around outside.

[xoAshley]

Thank you! This is something I haven’t tried yet, so definitely worth a shot!

[Lady Stardust]

Thank you! This is something I haven’t tried yet, so definitely worth a shot!

Good luck! I hope it helps.

Also just try and keep the ends soft and supple, using oil or a leave in. The less friction the better, I think.

[Jane99]

I have also been dealing with hard water for the last 15ish years and hadn’t known that may be part of the cause of my constant splits. My water doesn’t sound nearly as bad as your water though. I wonder if protein would help some of your most damaged ends? A hesitant suggestion since so many are protein sensitive...

[Shorty89]

I do seem to have better luck detangling in the shower with conditioner, my problem definitely is when it’s dry and I try to detangle before bed. I lightly finger comb and I can still hear snapping :shudder: are you suggesting I skip trying to even finger comb then and just leave it all be until wash day? I was worried if I let tangles go it would cause more breakage but what I’m doing now isn’t helping either clearly.

I don't know about your hair type, but I actually get more breakage and snapping when finger combing than with a comb or TT. I'm not sure why that is though. :shrug:

[Fimu]

What was the ppm value of your water before the softener?

I live in hard water area all my life and I wonder if this is the cause why my hair is always split-end prone. But on the other hand, I see enough girls rocking healthy long hair in my area and I doubt if they all live in a water-softened house, so maybe the fragility of your hair gets "exposed" in a hard water area?

So I'm going to ask you more questions:
* Do you have any nutritional or hormonal imbalances, e.g. thyroid or iron levels?
* Any diet changes in the last few years?
* Were there any significant lifestyle changes since you moved in your new place?
* Do you have strain in your neck and/or back or a mediocre posturue?

[xoAshley]

Good luck! I hope it helps.

Also just try and keep the ends soft and supple, using oil or a leave in. The less friction the better, I think.

Thank you! I will definitely try that.

[xoAshley]

I have also been dealing with hard water for the last 15ish years and hadn’t known that may be part of the cause of my constant splits. My water doesn’t sound nearly as bad as your water though. I wonder if protein would help some of your most damaged ends? A hesitant suggestion since so many are protein sensitive...

yes, could be! I know some people that have no issues ( Lapushka) and others who have had issues like me. I guess it all depends on the head of hair. I tried a few protein conditioners and they made my hair feel kind of yucky. I’m not sure if it was the protein itself or just the conditioner, I could always try revisiting that and see how it goes.

[xoAshley]

I don't know about your hair type, but I actually get more breakage and snapping when finger combing than with a comb or TT. I'm not sure why that is though. :shrug:

Interesting, I wouldn’t say I get more than I do with a brush or comb but I definitely get more than I should! I tried gently pulling hair apart last night instead of raking my hands straight down and that seemed to be much better.

[xoAshley]

What was the ppm value of your water before the softener?


I live in hard water area all my life and I wonder if this is the cause why my hair is always split-end prone. But on the other hand, I see enough girls rocking healthy long hair in my area and I doubt if they all live in a water-softened house, so maybe the fragility of your hair gets "exposed" in a hard water area?

So I'm going to ask you more questions:
* Do you have any nutritional or hormonal imbalances, e.g. thyroid or iron levels?
* Any diet changes in the last few years?
* Were there any significant lifestyle changes since you moved in your new place?
* Do you have strain in your neck and/or back or a mediocre posturue?

I’m not sure what the numbers were before the softener. I just know it was bad enough to cause buildup very quickly on all faucets, etc.

I confirmed this with a hair dresser friend- some people have no issues at all, some have minimal issues, some have severe issues. It just depends on the hair I suppose. So that very well could be your issue!

No nutrition issues or hormonal imbalances. I recently had a baby and had tons of regular blood work throughout that was all normal. And no, I wish I could blame the pregnancy hormones for all this but it started before the pregnancy.

No diet changes.

No lifestyle changes other than the water.

No back / neck issues.

[Fimu]

I’m not sure what the numbers were before the softener. I just know it was bad enough to cause buildup very quickly on all faucets, etc.

I confirmed this with a hair dresser friend- some people have no issues at all, some have minimal issues, some have severe issues. It just depends on the hair I suppose. So that very well could be your issue!

No nutrition issues or hormonal imbalances. I recently had a baby and had tons of regular blood work throughout that was all normal. And no, I wish I could blame the pregnancy hormones for all this but it started before the pregnancy.

No diet changes.

No lifestyle changes other than the water.

No back / neck issues.

Good to hear your bloodwork is fine, but now my concern about my tap water quality had been increased :eek:.

But I do have a few more questions with the hope to find some other correlations:
* Do you have strong or weak/brittle nails?
* Are you also open to alternative medicine/homeopathy? (I live somewhere in Europe so the trustworthiness varies with each country)

[xoAshley]

Good to hear your bloodwork is fine, but now my concern about my tap water quality had been increased :eek:.

But I do have a few more questions with the hope to find some other correlations:
* Do you have strong or weak/brittle nails?
* Are you also open to alternative medicine/homeopathy? (I live somewhere in Europe so the trustworthiness varies with each country)

It’s hard to know! The hard water issue is a mystery to many it seems. :(

I’ve always had very strong nails and thankfully that hasn’t changed at all.

I don’t know much about alternative medicine honestly! I’m open to hearing about it though.

[Fimu]

It’s hard to know! The hard water issue is a mystery to many it seems. :(

I’ve always had very strong nails and thankfully that hasn’t changed at all.

I don’t know much about alternative medicine honestly! I’m open to hearing about it though.

Hmm then I suspect the water hardness was still the culprit, though I assume your water was much harder than mine since in my case the scaling isn't that dramatic. Do you know what the pH was before the water softener?

I use herbal and homeopathic supplements and get them tested with electrodermal screening (Electro-Acupuncture according to Voll) and I also had Ayurvedic diet/supplement consults.

[xoAshley]

Hmm then I suspect the water hardness was still the culprit, though I assume your water was much harder than mine since in my case the scaling isn't that dramatic. Do you know what the pH was before the water softener?

I use herbal and homeopathic supplements and get them tested with electrodermal screening (Electro-Acupuncture according to Voll) and I also had Ayurvedic diet/supplement consults.

Unfortunately I have no idea. If you don’t have as much problem with buildup on faucets I suspect yours is a lot less hard than mine. Before we got the water softener, we would get the thick white calcium buildup on faucets pretty quickly and it was super hard to get off! I suspect this is what caused my damage.

[Fimu]

Unfortunately I have no idea. If you don’t have as much problem with buildup on faucets I suspect yours is a lot less hard than mine. Before we got the water softener, we would get the thick white calcium buildup on faucets pretty quickly and it was super hard to get off! I suspect this is what caused my damage.

I also suspect mine's less hard because the limescale build-up happens more gradually here.

I do wonder, what products do you currently use? Do you use any product with silicones or not? If not, are you open to use them, since you cleanse with sulfates anyway? I understood many people here use silicones to lubricate/mask the damaged ends which may be helpful in length retention.

[xoAshley]

So I was using Acure Organics which was very gentle shampoo and worked great when I lived with city water. But yeah, terrible idea for hard water :( so I now use Pantene and I notice a huge difference with the silicones for sure.

[Fimu]

So I was using Acure Organics which was very gentle shampoo and worked great when I lived with city water. But yeah, terrible idea for hard water :( so I now use Pantene and I notice a huge difference with the silicones for sure.

Makes sense! I can imagine that many people benefit more from silicones in hard-water areas. Which Pantene conditioner do you use?

[xoAshley]

Makes sense! I can imagine that many people benefit more from silicones in hard-water areas. Which Pantene conditioner do you use?

Beautiful lengths is my favorite. I’ve tried the moisture renewal and classic clean and beautiful lengths always just feels the best.

[MusicalSpoons]

Can you get a water quality report for your area? Over here they're routinely and freely available online - pH plays a factor as well as actual hardness, and I don't know how much the pH is affected by water softeners (anyone know? I've never had one). I am someone who has never had overt problems with very hard water (300+ppm, ~18°dH, you know when water has splashed anywhere because it leaves a white mark and the only way to clean the shower head is to literally soak it in a bucket of citric acid) BUT it could be why I'm never free of splits - however it's not absolutely terrible, it's around pH 7 and otherwise pretty decent quality, no issues with other dissolved elements like iron or copper, whatever.

I am glad to hear you now have a softener which will hopefully help a lot, and I have no advice in dealing with the damage already done other than as already mentioned, just snipping individual splits and doing your best in the rest of your routine to keep your hair as happy as possible.

Actually, I see you're a 2a and second what Lady Stardust mentioned. Quite a few of us have found our hair does better if we leave the clumps be - making sure it's fully detangled during the wash and trying to keep it in that state whilst drying, then the clumps just do their thing and hair is happier not being separated. I find my hair is okay being combed after around day 3 but not really before, and only once or twice between day 3 (or 4) and the next wash (day 7) - I do have to comb it to do a scalp wash, which is usually the reason for combing on day 3 or 4.

How do you wear your hair in the day and at night?

[primadonnamuch]

Hi! I just wanted to give a quick suggestion that worked for me when I moved to a hard water area for school and I was not able to add a water softener. I, too, suffered from the same issues you had, with hair just breaking off, my ends looking terrible tangles, etc. So what I did was I bought gallons of distilled water and when I showered I would dunk my hair in a small bucket of it to saturate my hair throughly with distilled water so it wouldn't absorb as much hard water when I showered and shampooed/conditioned. Perhaps try that? I hope it helps! :flower:

[xoAshley]

Can you get a water quality report for your area? Over here they're routinely and freely available online - pH plays a factor as well as actual hardness, and I don't know how much the pH is affected by water softeners (anyone know? I've never had one). I am someone who has never had overt problems with very hard water (300+ppm, ~18°dH, you know when water has splashed anywhere because it leaves a white mark and the only way to clean the shower head is to literally soak it in a bucket of citric acid) BUT it could be why I'm never free of splits - however it's not absolutely terrible, it's around pH 7 and otherwise pretty decent quality, no issues with other dissolved elements like iron or copper, whatever.

I am glad to hear you now have a softener which will hopefully help a lot, and I have no advice in dealing with the damage already done other than as already mentioned, just snipping individual splits and doing your best in the rest of your routine to keep your hair as happy as possible.

Actually, I see you're a 2a and second what Lady Stardust mentioned. Quite a few of us have found our hair does better if we leave the clumps be - making sure it's fully detangled during the wash and trying to keep it in that state whilst drying, then the clumps just do their thing and hair is happier not being separated. I find my hair is okay being combed after around day 3 but not really before, and only once or twice between day 3 (or 4) and the next wash (day 7) - I do have to comb it to do a scalp wash, which is usually the reason for combing on day 3 or 4.

How do you wear your hair in the day and at night?

When I first ran into this issue, I remember scouring the internet for that information, but I live in a somewhat rural area and it really only had information for surrounding cities and towns which I lived in before and didn’t have these issues. I’m sure the information has to be available somewhere though. I may try to do some more digging.

It’s funny, as someone with 2a hair I never thought to finger comb by gently separating hair sideways as opposed to raking my hands straight down through my hair. I’ve been trying that advice per Lady Stardust since yesterday and I notice a lot less snapping. I’m also trying to learn to just leave it alone after detangling in the shower and letting it do it’s thing until wash day,
So for your routine - do you not detangle at all until day 3? Do you run into any tangles before then? My fear is that if I leave it alone and I get a few tangles, leaving them be will cause more breakage, but perhaps I’m wrong.

So before this hard water fiasco I honestly wore my hair down most of the time and never had issues of any kind. Now of course that has changed so I try to wear my hair up during the day with my ficcare, usually just in a simple peacock style since my hair is still pretty short. At night I’ve always worn my hair down because I notice if I braid it it’s always comes undone and seems to put more stress on the strands.

[xoAshley]

Hi! I just wanted to give a quick suggestion that worked for me when I moved to a hard water area for school and I was not able to add a water softener. I, too, suffered from the same issues you had, with hair just breaking off, my ends looking terrible tangles, etc. So what I did was I bought gallons of distilled water and when I showered I would dunk my hair in a small bucket of it to saturate my hair throughly with distilled water so it wouldn't absorb as much hard water when I showered and shampooed/conditioned. Perhaps try that? I hope it helps! :flower:

I always feel so much better when I hear others have had the same issue (but I’m also sorry you had to experience that obviously!) because it seems like so many people are lucky and their hair doesn’t mind the hard water. I’m sure it really all depends on what sort of minerals are in your water, etc. Before I got a water softener I actually did the same thing and it did help! But didn’t make much of a difference for the already damaged spots of course :(

[MusicalSpoons]

When I first ran into this issue, I remember scouring the internet for that information, but I live in a somewhat rural area and it really only had information for surrounding cities and towns which I lived in before and didn’t have these issues. I’m sure the information has to be available somewhere though. I may try to do some more digging.

It’s funny, as someone with 2a hair I never thought to finger comb by gently separating hair sideways as opposed to raking my hands straight down through my hair. I’ve been trying that advice per Lady Stardust since yesterday and I notice a lot less snapping. I’m also trying to learn to just leave it alone after detangling in the shower and letting it do it’s thing until wash day,
So for your routine - do you not detangle at all until day 3? Do you run into any tangles before then? My fear is that if I leave it alone and I get a few tangles, leaving them be will cause more breakage, but perhaps I’m wrong.

So before this hard water fiasco I honestly wore my hair down most of the time and never had issues of any kind. Now of course that has changed so I try to wear my hair up during the day with my ficcare, usually just in a simple peacock style since my hair is still pretty short. At night I’ve always worn my hair down because I notice if I braid it it’s always comes undone and seems to put more stress on the strands.

Ideally no, but if flakes from eczema dictate then sometimes I have to comb sooner, but my lengths would prefer it if I didn't. As for tangles, I just ... either don't get them too much, or just don't notice? I bun every day, so I shake my hair out a bit, maybe pass a comb over the canopy if I need to look more presentable, and just put it up. I don't fuss about having buns perfectly smooth any more, like I used to before realising my hair actually had texture :lol:

Do you sleep on cotton or satin or some other material?

[xoAshley]

Ideally no, but if flakes from eczema dictate then sometimes I have to comb sooner, but my lengths would prefer it if I didn't. As for tangles, I just ... either don't get them too much, or just don't notice? I bun every day, so I shake my hair out a bit, maybe pass a comb over the canopy if I need to look more presentable, and just put it up. I don't fuss about having buns perfectly smooth any more, like I used to before realising my hair actually had texture :lol:

Do you sleep on cotton or satin or some other material?

Sounds like I need to do the same... stop fussing with it and leave it alone as much as possible!

I sleep on cotton, I know, LHC sin :lol: but breakage was never an issue until now.

[enting]

When I detangle dry I often add a bit of oil, especially if it feels at all snaggy/difficult to detangle. I do have hard water and we do get buildup in the water boiler and around the tap a little. I don't know if the oiling will help you. On me it just works so I do it, but if I think about it, oil's slipperiness could help hair with buildup on it slide past each other rather than snag on the rough surfaces from built up minerals.
I also use a vinegar rinse and that seems to help my hair's condition as well. Again, that may not work for your hair, but it seems to help mine. I've gotten a bit lazy about it lately, I need to start that up again.

[xoAshley]

When I detangle dry I often add a bit of oil, especially if it feels at all snaggy/difficult to detangle. I do have hard water and we do get buildup in the water boiler and around the tap a little. I don't know if the oiling will help you. On me it just works so I do it, but if I think about it, oil's slipperiness could help hair with buildup on it slide past each other rather than snag on the rough surfaces from built up minerals.
I also use a vinegar rinse and that seems to help my hair's condition as well. Again, that may not work for your hair, but it seems to help mine. I've gotten a bit lazy about it lately, I need to start that up again.


I’ve never tried oils before, it’s worth a shot! Thank you for your input. :)

[Firefox7275]

I have replied on your other thread too.

Brittle, tangly hair is in need of 'emollience' (softness, slip, flexibility/ pliability). That primarily comes from the major conditioning agents (cationic surfactants, fatty alcohols), and also certain 'occlusives' (liquid oils, silicones). You could try leaving in or adding back one of your Pantene conditioners. Having saud that, Beautiful Lengths has sodium chloride (table salt) so maybe keep that for rinse out only.

Since you have fine, damaged hair you could include smaller hydrolysed proteins, once you have upped the emollience/ conditioning. sorted. These 'patch repair', strengthen, but also help the hair hold the right amount of water.

[xoAshley]

I have replied on your other thread too.

Brittle, tangly hair is in need of 'emollience' (softness, slip, flexibility/ pliability). That primarily comes from the major conditioning agents (cationic surfactants, fatty alcohols), and also certain 'occlusives' (liquid oils, silicones). You could try leaving in or adding back one of your Pantene conditioners. Having saud that, Beautiful Lengths has sodium chloride (table salt) so maybe keep that for rinse out only.

Since you have fine, damaged hair you could include smaller hydrolysed proteins, once you have upped the emollience/ conditioning. sorted. These 'patch repair', strengthen, but also help the hair hold the right amount of water.


Thank you!! Very helpful and informative. Are the
Cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols found in normal conditioners like Pantene? Or do I need something extra?

[Wendyclaire]

Are you using non sulfate shampoo/conditioner? I recently started using one and it made my hair frizz up into a mess and nothing I put on it made it any better. Going back to my regular shampoo! I also have hard well water.

[MusicalSpoons]

Thank you!! Very helpful and informative. Are the Cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols found in normal conditioners like Pantene? Or do I need something extra?

Yep. Cetyl / stearyl / cetearyl alcohol are all the kind of fatty alcohols. Behentrimonium chloride, Behentrimonium methosulfate, Cetrimonium bromide, Cetrimonium chloride, Stearalkonium chloride, Dicetyldimonium chloride are all cationic surfactants / conditioning ingredients (partial list from Science-y Hair Blog (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/cationic-compounds-in-cosmetics.html)). They are pretty much the fundamental ingredients in commercial conditioner.

[xoAshley]

Are you using non sulfate shampoo/conditioner? I recently started using one and it made my hair frizz up into a mess and nothing I put on it made it any better. Going back to my regular shampoo! I also have hard well water.

It’s kind of funny, I’m the opposite! I was using sulfate free and I believe that’s how I got into this mess personally. My hair needs the sulfates with our hard water! So crazy how everyone is so different.

[xoAshley]

Yep. Cetyl / stearyl / cetearyl alcohol are all the kind of fatty alcohols. Behentrimonium chloride, Behentrimonium methosulfate, Cetrimonium bromide, Cetrimonium chloride, Stearalkonium chloride, Dicetyldimonium chloride are all cationic surfactants / conditioning ingredients (partial list from Science-y Hair Blog (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/cationic-compounds-in-cosmetics.html)). They are pretty much the fundamental ingredients in commercial conditioner.

Got it! Thank you so much for the help. :)

[Wendyclaire]

It’s kind of funny, I’m the opposite! I was using sulfate free and I believe that’s how I got into this mess personally. My hair needs the sulfates with our hard water! So crazy how everyone is so different.

Oh yes, I need the sulfate as well. I used the non sulfate a couple of times and my hair was an awful dry frizzy mess. Like I fried it with bleach or something. Looking better each day. Back to my curly Pantene product!!

[xoAshley]

Oh yes, I need the sulfate as well. I used the non sulfate a couple of times and my hair was an awful dry frizzy mess. Like I fried it with bleach or something. Looking better each day. Back to my curly Pantene product!!

Ohhh, gotcha! I misread your post the first time. I feel like that’s why I am in this whole mess, I was sulfate free for way too long with hard water. Ughhhh, such a mistake!

[Firefox7275]

The performance of a shampoo is the overall formulation, not just one group of detergents.

Sulphates are part of a broader family of 'anionic' detergents. These are all quite harsh on skin and hair, but much more so on hair or skin that is already weaker or damaged. Oftentimes a sulphate-free shampoo utilises a different 'anionic' detergent, such as an olefin sulfonate.

The poufy/ frizzy thing is partly down to the electrical charge. Healthy virgin hair is the opposite of anionic (cationic) and many conditioning agents are also cationic. Conditioning agents in a shampoo help disguise how harsh the detergent is and/ or help disguise the true condition of hair.

A sulphate-free shampoo may also be based on detergents that are still effective cleansers but much less harsh, and that do not mess with the electrical charge on hair. The formulation may or may not include conditioning agents.

If this type of shampoo leaves hair stripped and poufy/ frizzy, that *may* be the true condition of that head of hair. My own hair is peroxide-lightened so has lost its natural conditioning and its natural electrical charge. Detergents generally leave me looking like I stuck my finger in a live electrical socket!

Conditioner-only washing/ cleansing conditioners depoufed my hair from the first week, which makes sense: my anionic hair was getting bathed in cationic charges root to tip, throughout the wash.

My head is an example, not trying to convert anyone BTW. Soft/ hard water, the pH of that water and what is deposited onto hair from that water links in with the electrical charge on hair.