Weird Cone/Sulfate Question

[beckybourbon]

I know that comes/sulfates help make the hair look ‘healthy’ but does that mean it’s really is healthy? If it looks healthy doesn’t it mean it is?

I’m about to go buy some today at Target but I still feel so guilty buying it because I lean more on the ‘natural’ side.

[Ylva]

Sulfates don't make the hair look any healthier than it is, they just cleanse it effectively.

Silicones add a plastic-like layer on top of the hair, making it more slippery and shiny, and less likely to tangle. Some people say they just "hide the damage and don't really repair the hair", which is true, but does that need to be a negative thing? I mean, who wrote the law that you need to be honest about your hair's condition to the world, or to yourself? :lol:

The slip that they add certainly helps protect the hair from tangles which can lead to breakage in the worst case. A lot of things in haircare are there to just mask damage. Oils, for example, don't really "repair" the hair either, but they can add some more or less temporary, positive effects to the hair. There are things like Olaplex which do actually repair the hair structurally, but things like that are few and far between.

If your hair feels good when using silicones, there is nothing wrong with using them (except perhaps some environmental factors but that's a whole different subject).

[beckybourbon]

Sulfates don't make the hair look any healthier than it is, they just cleanse it effectively.

Silicones add a plastic-like layer on top of the hair, making it more slippery and shiny, and less likely to tangle. Some people say they just "hide the damage and don't really repair the hair", which is true, but does that need to be a negative thing? I mean, who wrote the law that you need to be honest about your hair's condition to the world, or to yourself? :lol:

The slip that they add certainly helps protect the hair from tangles which can lead to breakage in the worst case. A lot of things in haircare are there to just mask damage. Oils, for example, don't really "repair" the hair either, but they can add some more or less temporary, positive effects to the hair. There are things like Olaplex which do actually repair the hair structurally, but things like that are few and far between.

If your hair feels good when using silicones, there is nothing wrong with using them (except perhaps some environmental factors but that's a whole different subject).

Okay that makes sense!! They do help my hair and make it super soft which I absolutely LOVE. No natural shampoo/cond does that for my hair. I also worries if cones/sulfates are toxic for the scalp. It’s just like an automatic fear that’s built in me... Lol

[Mariekeeee14]

Sulfates are necessary for cone removal, since no other cleanser is able to get them off properly. And if you use a cone conditioner, use that from your ears down preferably. That way the cones don’t touch your scalp anyway!

[lapushka]

Okay that makes sense!! They do help my hair and make it super soft which I absolutely LOVE. No natural shampoo/cond does that for my hair. I also worries if cones/sulfates are toxic for the scalp. It’s just like an automatic fear that’s built in me... Lol

If you love more natural things, by all means, just go with it! :D :thumbsup:

But sulfates aren't the devil. They are just very effective at cleansing the scalp. They will not harm the scalp in any way shape or form, though, so... nothing to worry about. They can be drying, especially if you are not that oily. But if you are on the oily side, you will be happy for them.

Even some oilier ladies & gents out there like gentler cleansing and love sulfate-mild and even sulfate-free. But not all scalps can handle that.

Sulfates & silicones aren't the devil and as bad as they are made out to be.

But it is a YMMV thing.

If you buy a sulfate shampoo just to clarify once in a while; then stick to your more natural things for the rest of the time... would that be a good option?

[MusicalSpoons]

Okay that makes sense!! They do help my hair and make it super soft which I absolutely LOVE. No natural shampoo/cond does that for my hair. I also worries if cones/sulfates are toxic for the scalp. It’s just like an automatic fear that’s built in me... Lol

Just FYI, they're not allowed to sell products that are toxic ;) Anyone can be sensitive or allergic to anything, but they're not allowed to use ingredients that are downright dangerous to humans in general.

[Ylva]

Just FYI, they're not allowed to sell products that are toxic ;) Anyone can be sensitive or allergic to anything, but they're not allowed to use ingredients that are downright dangerous to humans in general.

If only this applied to what we put in our mouths as well. :D

Sorry, OT.

[GoddesJourney]

I think people who are really anti silicone are people like me who's hair gets damaged by it. Mine gets very dry and starts splitting everywhere. So, at first, my hair feels slippery and thicker, etc. Within a couple of uses, I start to see damage if I don't use them. Before long, no amount of silicones can conceal the damage and it breaks off everywhere and is a horrible mess. It totally depends on your individual head of hair.

Sulfate shampoo gives me a really oily scalp.

Other people absolutely love these products and they have only positive effects. This is why each person has to experiment a bit and find what does and doesn't work on their own head. It's hard to guess and even people with hair that appears to be similar may not react the same way to the same products.

[lapushka]

I think people who are really anti silicone are people like me who's hair gets damaged by it. Mine gets very dry and starts splitting everywhere. So, at first, my hair feels slippery and thicker, etc. Within a couple of uses, I start to see damage if I don't use them. Before long, no amount of silicones can conceal the damage and it breaks off everywhere and is a horrible mess. It totally depends on your individual head of hair.

Sulfate shampoo gives me a really oily scalp.

Other people absolutely love these products and they have only positive effects. This is why each person has to experiment a bit and find what does and doesn't work on their own head. It's hard to guess and even people with hair that appears to be similar may not react the same way to the same products.

Oh that is 100% true! ^^

[illicitlizard]

If you buy a sulfate shampoo just to clarify once in a while; then stick to your more natural things for the rest of the time... would that be a good option?

^^This is what I do most of the time, sulfates and cones on occasion (hair loves cones, my sensitive skin hates sulfates) and sulfate/silicone free the rest of the time. Seems like a nice balance.

Cones and sulfates aren't inherently bad though, they just disagree with some people's hair/scalp!

[Spikey]

Don't feel bad because your preferred hair products aren't "natural"! So many people on this forum seem to associate chemicals with evil (I know no one on this thread has said it, this just reminds me of that). But everything you can possibly put in a product bottle is a chemical of some sort or another, even if it's derived from a plant. Every ingredient in your shampoo and conditioner is choosen to either help your hair or preserve the product itself,and some of the scariest, most unpronounceable chemicals in your ingredients list do great things for your hair.

The reason some folks don't like cones and sulfates is because sulfates can be harsh and drying for them, and silicone can build up over time and get gunky. Everybody reacts differently, so pay attention to what works for you rather than what works for others.

[SleepyTangles]

Cones are very shiny, and they fill pretty well damaged hair shafts giving them a smooth feeling to the touch.

But aside from looking pretty cones work very bad with my hair and scalp. I get weird bouts of dryness followed by overcompensating sebum production, and I personally detangle my hair easily without silicones :shrug:

But you can totally experiment! :) Some people find cones amazing, and they work perfectly well for them. No reason to be or feel guilty.

ETA: my favorite deposit dye contains simethicone, but I have no intention of giving it up just for one ingredient I don't like. The color is too pretty.

[beckybourbon]

Thank you everyone this has helped me out a lot! 💕

[kinnyuu]

I've recently switched back to sulfates/cones after doing natural for a year.
Hair is much smoother, easier to handle, and feels better. Shinier.
I don't think it's fake or bad. I grew my hair to TBL with cones and had very healthy hair, it wasn't until I stopped that my hair rebelled and got weird on me.
I think it's 100% ok. Silicones are reversible and won't damage, they literally wash off. And sulfates are just a type of surfactant that cleanses quicker and easier.

[Kat]

Well, if hair is unhealthy, it's unhealthy. I suppose if it would make a person feel more honest to have it also look unhealthy, that's fine, but not everyone feels that way and they may prefer that if their hair is going to be unhealthy, it might as well be manageable/presentable with 'cones, or clean with sulfates.

[MusicalSpoons]

Well, if hair is unhealthy, it's unhealthy. I suppose if it would make a person feel more honest to have it also look unhealthy, that's fine, but not everyone feels that way and they may prefer that if their hair is going to be unhealthy, it might as well be manageable/presentable with 'cones, or clean with sulfates.

Absolutely! There's nothing wrong with making an informed decision to use any tool, including specific ingredients. I think most of the backlash is when things are the 'default' and not necessarily as universally good as we've been led to believe, but that doesn't make anything inherently bad.

[AutobotsAttack]

I know that comes/sulfates help make the hair look ‘healthy’ but does that mean it’s really is healthy? If it looks healthy doesn’t it mean it is?

I’m about to go buy some today at Target but I still feel so guilty buying it because I lean more on the ‘natural’ side.

Just to add some clarity to the notion of “healthy” hair, hair in and of itself cannot really be “healthy” in terms of how we usually view healthy concerning our bodies. Hair does not carry out any metabolic processes whatsoever. The only thing it can do, once it’s been pushed out through the follicles is slowly, but surely accrue damage just by existing. A lot of people seem to be under the assumption that hair can gain or lose its “health”. It’s just either well maintained or it’s not.


How well you preserve or maintain your hair is the name of the game. Sulfates and silicones aren’t going to jeopardize the maintenance of your hair unless you’re using a specific product whose formulation isn’t doing your hair any good. But if you’ve found a way to incorporate sulfates and silicones in such a way to where it preserves and maintains the integrity of your hair and scalp, then I see no problem with using the products.

[Firefox7275]

I know that comes/sulfates help make the hair look ‘healthy’ but does that mean it’s really is healthy? If it looks healthy doesn’t it mean it is?

I’m about to go buy some today at Target but I still feel so guilty buying it because I lean more on the ‘natural’ side ......

Okay that makes sense!! They do help my hair and make it super soft which I absolutely LOVE. No natural shampoo/cond does that for my hair. I also worries if cones/sulfates are toxic for the scalp. It’s just like an automatic fear that’s built in me... Lol

There are numerous poisons, toxins, allergens and irritants in nature. For example essential oils and their fragrant components are well known allergens and irritants.

Anionic surfactants/ detergents - inc. sulphates - are problematic for *some* skin types, those with pre-existing or genetic predisposition to atopic eczema say. They can also damage *some* hair types, especially that which is already damaged, from bleaching say.

There is also research suggesting that olive oil disrupts the skin barrier, and that a fatty acid common to many natural oils and butters is a skin irritant! And other research that suggests olive oil can penetrate hair, especially overly porous/ damaged hair.

Fully healthy and strong hair is virgin and *structurally intact* inside and out. Undamaged by bleach, straightening treatments, hot tools, UV rays (sunlight), shampooing, combing, ponytail elastics, rubbing on fabrics ....

Any STUNNING ultra long head of hair you see here is somewhat damaged at the ends *if you viewed it under a microscope* because daily life slowly wears down or 'weathers' the protective f-layer and cuticle. That unavoidable damage is why people have to S&D split ends or breaks.

There are some great articles on the Science-y Hair Blog, including information on different types of silicones, different modern detergents/ alternative cleansing methods, natural oils and butters, images of hair under the microscope.

HTH!

[hennalonghair]

Sulfates don't make the hair look any healthier than it is, they just cleanse it effectively.

Silicones add a plastic-like layer on top of the hair, making it more slippery and shiny, and less likely to tangle. Some people say they just "hide the damage and don't really repair the hair", which is true, but does that need to be a negative thing? I mean, who wrote the law that you need to be honest about your hair's condition to the world, or to yourself? :lol:

The slip that they add certainly helps protect the hair from tangles which can lead to breakage in the worst case. A lot of things in haircare are there to just mask damage. Oils, for example, don't really "repair" the hair either, but they can add some more or less temporary, positive effects to the hair. There are things like Olaplex which do actually repair the hair structurally, but things like that are few and far between.

If your hair feels good when using silicones, there is nothing wrong with using them (except perhaps some environmental factors but that's a whole different subject).
Silicones are plastic and work great for some people but have the opposite results for others. I think porosity has a lot to do with it. My hair is curly so naturally dry. It’s coarse and naturally porous too. When I use silicones, it adds a barrier to my hair that prevents moisture from getting in so dries my hair out something awful. The first 6 to 8 hours it’s heavily though.

I also agree to keep silicones away from the scalp. Since they are plastic, they can suffocate the scalp pores. If I use them on my scalp, my scalp gets greasy, itchy and generally unhealthy. Due to this I prefer to use holistic products with natural ingredients.

There are plenty of all natural cleaners that will cleanse silicones & residues out of hair without sulphates.

[hennalonghair]

Cones are very shiny, and they fill pretty well damaged hair shafts giving them a smooth feeling to the touch.

But aside from looking pretty cones work very bad with my hair and scalp. I get weird bouts of dryness followed by overcompensating sebum production, and I personally detangle my hair easily without silicones :shrug:

But you can totally experiment! :) Some people find cones amazing, and they work perfectly well for them. No reason to be or feel guilty.

ETA: my favorite deposit dye contains simethicone, but I have no intention of giving it up just for one ingredient I don't like. The color is too pretty.

Oh! We DO have much in common. :p

[MusicalSpoons]

There is also research suggesting that olive oil disrupts the skin barrier, and that a fatty acid common to many natural oils and butters is a skin irritant! And other research that suggests olive oil can penetrate hair, especially overly porous/ damaged hair.


Slightly OT but which fatty acid? And thank you for confirming my suspicions that my face genuinely doesn't like creams containing olive oil (which rather makes life difficult as it doesn't like coconut, and I'm reluctant to use anything containing avocado as I'm internally allergic to that. Dangit!)

[Kat]

Silicones are plastic and work great for some people but have the opposite results for others. I think porosity has a lot to do with it. My hair is curly so naturally dry. It’s coarse and naturally porous too. When I use silicones, it adds a barrier to my hair that prevents moisture from getting in so dries my hair out something awful. The first 6 to 8 hours it’s heavily though.

I also agree to keep silicones away from the scalp. Since they are plastic, they can suffocate the scalp pores. If I use them on my scalp, my scalp gets greasy, itchy and generally unhealthy. Due to this I prefer to use holistic products with natural ingredients.

There are plenty of all natural cleaners that will cleanse silicones & residues out of hair without sulphates.

Non-sulfate shampoos do not fully clean oil and sweat out of my hair, no. If they work for some people, that's great. And if other people want to use sulfates, that's fine too.

[Bri-Chan]

Silicones are plastic and work great for some people but have the opposite results for others. I think porosity has a lot to do with it. My hair is curly so naturally dry. It’s coarse and naturally porous too. When I use silicones, it adds a barrier to my hair that prevents moisture from getting in so dries my hair out something awful. The first 6 to 8 hours it’s heavily though.

I also agree to keep silicones away from the scalp. Since they are plastic, they can suffocate the scalp pores. If I use them on my scalp, my scalp gets greasy, itchy and generally unhealthy. Due to this I prefer to use holistic products with natural ingredients.

There are plenty of all natural cleaners that will cleanse silicones & residues out of hair without sulphates.

I have to disagree with this. Silicones are not plastic, they are made by silicon (the element). Plastic comes from petroleum. They create a film, but also butters and oils creates it. Same for the comedogenicity: some cones can occlude scalp pores and other not, same for oils and butters.

[Firefox7275]

Slightly OT but which fatty acid? And thank you for confirming my suspicions that my face genuinely doesn't like creams containing olive oil (which rather makes life difficult as it doesn't like coconut, and I'm reluctant to use anything containing avocado as I'm internally allergic to that. Dangit!)

Oleic acid. Avocado oil, hazelnut oil, East African shea butter, cocoa butter and others are rich in it.

The closest to human sebum, and recommended for clinically xerotic (dry) or eczematous skin, is medical grade lanolin. Technically a wax, thick and not great alone for anything but lips, sore nipples, cuticles. So best as an ingredient.

Lanolin crops up in hand/ foot creams/ body lotions more often than face moisturisers. Head to the pharmacy section, rather than the beauty section.

If you want a straight-up oil for your face, maybe squalane (note the A). Squalene (E) is a component of sebum but potentially comedogenic.

HTH!

[MusicalSpoons]

Oleic acid. Avocado oil, hazelnut oil, East African shea butter, cocoa butter and others are rich in it.

The closest to human sebum, and recommended for clinically xerotic (dry) or eczematous skin, is medical grade lanolin. Technically a wax, thick and not great alone for anything but lips, sore nipples, cuticles. So best as an ingredient.

Lanolin crops up in hand/ foot creams/ body lotions more often than face moisturisers. Head to the pharmacy section, rather than the beauty section.

If you want a straight-up oil for your face, maybe squalane (note the A). Squalene (E) is a component of sebum but potentially comedogenic.

HTH!

Thank you! I have definitely widened my search and unfortunately a lot of mainstream medicated creams/lotions contain dimethicone which my eczema Does Not Like :doh: but good to know lanolin is actually good. I've also found a lotion with beeswax good for my hands (but no real difference on my face). Have heard of squalane but not investigated so that's a useful pointer. Thanks!

/Sorry, end OT :oops:

Edit: though bringing it back to near the topic, oleic acid is very much implicated in seborrheic dermatitis, being an irritant produced by the yeast and a sensitivity to it seems to be what causes the irritation and inflammation.