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Wusel
May 11th, 2019, 11:29 AM
What I mean is, how can I determine if clarifying is needed so that my scalp is clean enough for maximum growth? I do it like once a month but I never really FEEL that it's needed. How do you know?

Joules
May 11th, 2019, 11:39 AM
I'd like to know the answer to it too. IMO once it starts itching and flaking and hair follicles become sore it's too late.

I clarify my scalp with a scrub once a week just because it says to do so on the tube of the scrub. I wash two to three times a week, so I scrub every other wash. My scalp is between normal and oily. So far it seems ok, but I'm still figuring the whole scalp cleansing thing out, I've been co-washing and damaging my scalp for quite a long time.

I'd suggest figuring out your scalp type and trying to read a few trichology websites for recommendations. Like, what schedule specialists in this area recommend.

blackgothicdoll
May 11th, 2019, 11:49 AM
For me, my scalp just feels gross. If I wash with a sulfate-free shampoo and a couple days later it still feels gross, that tells me I need to use a clarifying shampoo *or* a sulfate shampoo and/or exfoliate. I guess that's a rather abstract description, but I don't ever get flakes, and itching only happens after I clarify (thank you, dry scalp), so I guess feeling is the only thing I can go off of.

Ylva
May 11th, 2019, 11:52 AM
One way to know that you DON'T have buildup is if you see these sort of "dark dots" at the hair roots. There was talk about this in the "Scalp care" thread just a while ago, do stop by to check it out. :)

lapushka
May 11th, 2019, 05:33 PM
If you clarify-wash say once or twice a month you should be fine. It is better to prevent than to be stuck with build-up, for sure.

Myself, I clarify weekly, and also weekly wash, so each wash day I clarify-wash. I just need it.

EdG
May 14th, 2019, 09:20 AM
Make sure that the tines of the comb are reaching the scalp (every square centimeter of it). This kind of combing is called "scritching". It removes waxy sebum from the scalp.
Ed

The-Young-Maid
May 14th, 2019, 10:37 AM
If it itches at all. Or if you get stuff under your nails when you scratch your scalp.

Wusel
May 14th, 2019, 10:51 AM
If it itches at all. Or if you get stuff under your nails when you scratch your scalp.

I never have stuff under my nails when I scratch my scalp. Even when I put a lot of oil on it it absorbs and there's nothing. I just scratched, still haven't washed the oil out from yesterday, and there is nothing. And it's not itchy too.

MusicalSpoons
May 14th, 2019, 06:40 PM
If it itches at all. Or if you get stuff under your nails when you scratch your scalp.

Huh. This usually happens by day 2 for me, but my scalp doesn't start asking to be washed until around day 5 :hmm:

blackgothicdoll
May 14th, 2019, 08:44 PM
If it itches at all. Or if you get stuff under your nails when you scratch your scalp.

Stuff under the nails could be sebum. Green Beauty has a really good video about it. Sebum is good for hair, which is why some people stretch washes so that their natural sebum can create a coating for their hair. Unfortunately, it takes me weeks to generate any sebum so I just use natural oils. Other people create too much sebum, which could be problematic, but I believe if you're not someone who is over-producing, it's not bad at all to have some on your scalp.

In her video, green beauty recommends smoothing the sebum from the scalp onto the hair. That honestly seems kind of gross to me and it is targeted toward women with kinky hair textures, so I'm not sure if that works for straighter hair types but it is a good way to keep it off the scalp and use it on the hair.

EdG
May 14th, 2019, 09:39 PM
If it itches at all. Or if you get stuff under your nails when you scratch your scalp.A small amount is normal. A large amount indicates a build-up problem.


In her video, green beauty recommends smoothing the sebum from the scalp onto the hair. That honestly seems kind of gross to me and it is targeted toward women with kinky hair textures, so I'm not sure if that works for straighter hair types but it is a good way to keep it off the scalp and use it on the hair.Small amounts of fine sebum powder are okay to redistribute to the hair. However, if one finds clumps of waxy sebum and lint, the comb should be cleaned immediately.
Ed

Wusel
May 15th, 2019, 02:01 AM
A small amount is normal. A large amount indicates a build-up problem.

Small amounts of fine sebum powder are okay to redistribute to the hair. However, if one finds clumps of waxy sebum and lint, the comb should be cleaned immediately.
Ed

I never had clumps of waxy sebum... damn, I just had breakfast and 'waxy sebum' made me gag. LOL! What a yummy topic...

EdG
May 15th, 2019, 05:26 AM
I never had clumps of waxy sebum...Your hair and scalp care routine is good. :thumbsup:
Ed

Joules
May 15th, 2019, 05:55 AM
Stuff under the nails could be sebum. Green Beauty has a really good video about it. Sebum is good for hair, which is why some people stretch washes so that their natural sebum can create a coating for their hair. Unfortunately, it takes me weeks to generate any sebum so I just use natural oils. Other people create too much sebum, which could be problematic, but I believe if you're not someone who is over-producing, it's not bad at all to have some on your scalp.

In her video, green beauty recommends smoothing the sebum from the scalp onto the hair. That honestly seems kind of gross to me and it is targeted toward women with kinky hair textures, so I'm not sure if that works for straighter hair types but it is a good way to keep it off the scalp and use it on the hair.

Who is green beauty? Is she a trichologist? A dermatologist? Has she ever published a research in this field? Does she successfully treat people with scalp conditions? Why should we listen to her?

The notion that sebum is good is wrong on so many levels. Yes, sebum might be good for hair, but it's awful for scalp. Fungus feeds on sebum. Washing it out is essential for scalp health. So so so many people get scalp issues after going no-poo or low-poo. Scritching isn't enough, it just removes what can be removed with a brush or nails, it doesn't clean the scalp properly. From what I've read over the past few months people who don't use shampoos and are doing ok are more of an exception rather than the norm. I had normal scalp and still got issues on low-poo and stretching washes, I can't imagine how an oily scalp would do on such routine.

If you stretch washes or don't use shampoo at all sebum can change its consistency, become more waxy rather than liquid, clog follicles and cause thinning of individual strands and hairloss. It is also what contributes to the effect of less oily scalp,like,of course it seems less oily, your follicles are clogged and can't allow the excess sebum to come out easily. It hasn't "rebalanced", it got worse and you don't even realise it.

When a person has oily and acne-prone face everyone's telling them that it's important to wash it daily to prevent bacteria from growing in the excess sebum, yet oily scalp is treated so differently for some reason. Gosh. Just wash your hair, people. Use other oils like coconut or olive if you want to nourish your hair.

(Whatever I just said doesn't apply to people with dry scalp, obviously)

ChloeDharma
May 15th, 2019, 06:25 AM
Stuff under the nails could be sebum. Green Beauty has a really good video about it. Sebum is good for hair, which is why some people stretch washes so that their natural sebum can create a coating for their hair. Unfortunately, it takes me weeks to generate any sebum so I just use natural oils. Other people create too much sebum, which could be problematic, but I believe if you're not someone who is over-producing, it's not bad at all to have some on your scalp.

In her video, green beauty recommends smoothing the sebum from the scalp onto the hair. That honestly seems kind of gross to me and it is targeted toward women with kinky hair textures, so I'm not sure if that works for straighter hair types but it is a good way to keep it off the scalp and use it on the hair.

I really enjoy Green Beauty's channel. What you described used to be popular here and refered to as "preening", a way to get sebum from the scalp down the length of the hair to coat it. It's also one of the benefits of doing regular boar bristle brushing, it's a method people used a long time ago when hair washing was not as easy as it is these days and stretching washes was more of a norm.

blackgothicdoll
May 15th, 2019, 06:31 AM
Who is green beauty? Is she a trichologist? A dermatologist? Has she ever published a research in this field? Does she successfully treat people with scalp conditions? Why should we listen to her?

The notion that sebum is good is wrong on so many levels. Yes, sebum might be good for hair, but it's awful for scalp. Fungus feeds on sebum. Washing it out is essential for scalp health. So so so many people get scalp issues after going no-poo or low-poo. Scritching isn't enough, it just removes what can be removed with a brush or nails, it doesn't clean the scalp properly. From what I've read over the past few months people who don't use shampoos and are doing ok are more of an exception rather than the norm. I had normal scalp and still got issues on low-poo and stretching washes, I can't imagine how an oily scalp would do on such routine.

If you stretch washes or don't use shampoo at all sebum can change its consistency, become more waxy rather than liquid, clog follicles and cause thinning of individual strands and hairloss. It is also what contributes to the effect of less oily scalp,like,of course it seems less oily, your follicles are clogged and can't allow the excess sebum to come out easily. It hasn't "rebalanced", it got worse and you don't even realise it.

When a person has oily and acne-prone face everyone's telling them that it's important to wash it daily to prevent bacteria from growing in the excess sebum, yet oily scalp is treated so differently for some reason. Gosh. Just wash your hair, people. Use other oils like coconut or olive if you want to nourish your hair.

(Whatever I just said doesn't apply to people with dry scalp, obviously)

Why would we listen to anyone on this site in that case, most people here aren't dermatologists. In fact, are you a dermatologist or trichologist with published research? Just saying....

Her videos are all backed by research and science. She provides sources and citations for all of the commentary she provides in her videos. I'm not sure of her scientific background because she doesn't begin each video with a resume, but it's not a channel of someone spurting off random facts with zero data. She also has a product line, though she doesn't heavily advertise it as she focuses more on the content of her videos.

Anyhow, I'm not here to stan for her I just find her videos interesting and thought may be that information would help someone.

People have been stretching washes longer than you've been alive, I'm sure it's not that big of a deal, and as you added at the end, it definitely depends on scalp type. I wouldn't get so worked up over what people choose to do or not to do with their scalp for that reason alone, plus if they don't have any issues - and I'm sure something like scalp fungus is pretty noticeable.

Here is the video for those who are interested. https://youtu.be/5gb7mPM_J8E

ChloeDharma
May 15th, 2019, 06:34 AM
Who is green beauty? Is she a trichologist? A dermatologist? Has she ever published a research in this field? Does she successfully treat people with scalp conditions? Why should we listen to her?

The notion that sebum is good is wrong on so many levels. Yes, sebum might be good for hair, but it's awful for scalp. Fungus feeds on sebum. Washing it out is essential for scalp health. So so so many people get scalp issues after going no-poo or low-poo. Scritching isn't enough, it just removes what can be removed with a brush or nails, it doesn't clean the scalp properly. From what I've read over the past few months people who don't use shampoos and are doing ok are more of an exception rather than the norm. I had normal scalp and still got issues on low-poo and stretching washes, I can't imagine how an oily scalp would do on such routine.

If you stretch washes or don't use shampoo at all sebum can change its consistency, become more waxy rather than liquid, clog follicles and cause thinning of individual strands and hairloss. It is also what contributes to the effect of less oily scalp,like,of course it seems less oily, your follicles are clogged and can't allow the excess sebum to come out easily. It hasn't "rebalanced", it got worse and you don't even realise it.

When a person has oily and acne-prone face everyone's telling them that it's important to wash it daily to prevent bacteria from growing in the excess sebum, yet oily scalp is treated so differently for some reason. Gosh. Just wash your hair, people. Use other oils like coconut or olive if you want to nourish your hair.

(Whatever I just said doesn't apply to people with dry scalp, obviously)

To be fair it was mentioned that over production can be a problem. It seems logical that when a person has found their optimal routine for washing their hair then it can be helpful to move that sebum away from the scalp and down the shaft between washes, which supports the point you make. Sebum is naturally produced by the scalp and skin to protect from water loss etc. Without it problems can occur, just as not removing it regularly can also produce problems.

LadyCelestina
May 15th, 2019, 07:08 AM
Who is green beauty? Is she a trichologist? A dermatologist? Has she ever published a research in this field? Does she successfully treat people with scalp conditions? Why should we listen to her?

The notion that sebum is good is wrong on so many levels. Yes, sebum might be good for hair, but it's awful for scalp. Fungus feeds on sebum. Washing it out is essential for scalp health. So so so many people get scalp issues after going no-poo or low-poo. Scritching isn't enough, it just removes what can be removed with a brush or nails, it doesn't clean the scalp properly. From what I've read over the past few months people who don't use shampoos and are doing ok are more of an exception rather than the norm. I had normal scalp and still got issues on low-poo and stretching washes, I can't imagine how an oily scalp would do on such routine.

If you stretch washes or don't use shampoo at all sebum can change its consistency, become more waxy rather than liquid, clog follicles and cause thinning of individual strands and hairloss. It is also what contributes to the effect of less oily scalp,like,of course it seems less oily, your follicles are clogged and can't allow the excess sebum to come out easily. It hasn't "rebalanced", it got worse and you don't even realise it.

When a person has oily and acne-prone face everyone's telling them that it's important to wash it daily to prevent bacteria from growing in the excess sebum, yet oily scalp is treated so differently for some reason. Gosh. Just wash your hair, people. Use other oils like coconut or olive if you want to nourish your hair.

(Whatever I just said doesn't apply to people with dry scalp, obviously)

We are all curious as to what sources you have to back up your claims :)

Washing oily and acne prone faces to get them stripped of oil is a myth. Sebum is a natural part of a healthy acid mantle. Oily and acne prone skin produces sebum that has different fatty acid composition from normal sebum, so technically if you manage to alter the compositon of the sebum (for example azelaic acid decreases the fatty acid content), you don't need to be overly dilligent with washing. You should focus on supporting the natural barrier function and cleansing your skin in a way that doesn't disrupt the acid mantle, but is suffiecent cosmetically. For me, I use water or OCM if I'm wearing makeup :)

Now fungal acne (like fungal skin conditions) is a different animal.

LadyCelestina
May 15th, 2019, 07:13 AM
Just to add a FYI - a clogged hair follicle is actually... A pimple! So I think if your regimen gave you scalp pimples you would definitely notice before any significant thinning and hairloss would occur :)

Ylva
May 15th, 2019, 09:54 AM
Just to add a FYI - a clogged hair follicle is actually... A pimple! So I think if your regimen gave you scalp pimples you would definitely notice before any significant thinning and hairloss would occur :)

There is also the concept of blocked hair follicles rather than clogged. I think that's what is meant in this case.

Wusel
May 15th, 2019, 10:07 AM
Who is green beauty? Is she a trichologist? A dermatologist? Has she ever published a research in this field? Does she successfully treat people with scalp conditions? Why should we listen to her?

The notion that sebum is good is wrong on so many levels. Yes, sebum might be good for hair, but it's awful for scalp. Fungus feeds on sebum. Washing it out is essential for scalp health. So so so many people get scalp issues after going no-poo or low-poo. Scritching isn't enough, it just removes what can be removed with a brush or nails, it doesn't clean the scalp properly. From what I've read over the past few months people who don't use shampoos and are doing ok are more of an exception rather than the norm. I had normal scalp and still got issues on low-poo and stretching washes, I can't imagine how an oily scalp would do on such routine.

If you stretch washes or don't use shampoo at all sebum can change its consistency, become more waxy rather than liquid, clog follicles and cause thinning of individual strands and hairloss. It is also what contributes to the effect of less oily scalp,like,of course it seems less oily, your follicles are clogged and can't allow the excess sebum to come out easily. It hasn't "rebalanced", it got worse and you don't even realise it.

When a person has oily and acne-prone face everyone's telling them that it's important to wash it daily to prevent bacteria from growing in the excess sebum, yet oily scalp is treated so differently for some reason. Gosh. Just wash your hair, people. Use other oils like coconut or olive if you want to nourish your hair.

(Whatever I just said doesn't apply to people with dry scalp, obviously)

Good point. I also got huge problems and hairloss when I tried the no poo method, water only method and stretching washes to once a week. It was terrible, gave me hairloss, I was scratching my scalp at night and found hairs scratched out on my pillow. For me oiling and washing 2-3 times a week works perfectly fine, having waxy sebum on my scalp and brushing it down to my hair sounds just... (gag again).

LadyCelestina
May 15th, 2019, 11:45 AM
There is also the concept of blocked hair follicles rather than clogged. I think that's what is meant in this case.

What exactly are blocked follicles and how are they different from clogged hair follicles?

The only thing that comes up is folliculitis, which is also manifested as pimples. Folliculitis is what people get when they shave a body part that gets rubbed on clothes a lot. I find it extremely unlikely that you wouldn't notice it on your scalp... and also that it would progress enough so as to cause significant thinning. / ETA: I wish there was something that would clog the follicles and thin out my other body hair, lol

I'm not saying that we should all stretch washes, I myself wash every other day due to a problematic scalp, but I think the above post is fearmongering, and quite ignorant as well. Just because me or anyone else has issues with stretching washes, doesn't mean all people who stretch washes or oil their scalps will have the same issues. Especially since there's no evidence for the claims (yet). I'm particularly interested in the research which says sebum is awful for scalp, and the one that says sebum blocks other sebum from coming out of sebaceous glands:p

lapushka
May 15th, 2019, 12:31 PM
Who is green beauty? Is she a trichologist? A dermatologist? Has she ever published a research in this field? Does she successfully treat people with scalp conditions? Why should we listen to her?

The notion that sebum is good is wrong on so many levels. Yes, sebum might be good for hair, but it's awful for scalp. Fungus feeds on sebum. Washing it out is essential for scalp health. So so so many people get scalp issues after going no-poo or low-poo. Scritching isn't enough, it just removes what can be removed with a brush or nails, it doesn't clean the scalp properly. From what I've read over the past few months people who don't use shampoos and are doing ok are more of an exception rather than the norm. I had normal scalp and still got issues on low-poo and stretching washes, I can't imagine how an oily scalp would do on such routine.

If you stretch washes or don't use shampoo at all sebum can change its consistency, become more waxy rather than liquid, clog follicles and cause thinning of individual strands and hairloss. It is also what contributes to the effect of less oily scalp,like,of course it seems less oily, your follicles are clogged and can't allow the excess sebum to come out easily. It hasn't "rebalanced", it got worse and you don't even realise it.

When a person has oily and acne-prone face everyone's telling them that it's important to wash it daily to prevent bacteria from growing in the excess sebum, yet oily scalp is treated so differently for some reason. Gosh. Just wash your hair, people. Use other oils like coconut or olive if you want to nourish your hair.

(Whatever I just said doesn't apply to people with dry scalp, obviously)

Green Beauty has a YT channel and a range of products that she sells. :) Just because you don't have a "title" doesn't mean you are wrong about something or you can't express an opinion.

We all have opinions. ;)

The-Young-Maid
May 15th, 2019, 01:15 PM
I'm not fearmongering. I'm letting others know what I went through because of the ideas on this forum. When I joined there was one way to grow long hair; stretch washes, oil, wear updos as much as possible. All of which damaged my hair/scalp. No one here ever warned me otherwise. I thought I was doing everything right.

I want to save others the pain of years of oily, thin hair. Constantly wearing their hair up when they enjoy it down. I want other people to stick to what has been working for them for years. If it ain't broke don't fix it, just add some hair friendly habits. So when I see people promote these kinds of things to everyone I'm angry. I'm angry because if something doesn't work for you they tell you you're doing it wrong.

Clogged follicles are NOT the same as acne, trust me. Acne doesn't make your hair shed. Unless you want to tell me I'm wrong??? :rolling:

TLDR; Sebum can build up and is very bad for scalp health. Your scalp is more important than hair. Not even the "experts" on LHC really know anything. If you notice any extra shedding or itchies stop that method immediately.

So lurkers please be careful. Not everything you see on here is good for your individual hair/scalp. Don't try to make something work for you just because it works for others and they have long hair. Listen to your scalp. - recovering LHCer

Liz H
May 15th, 2019, 01:34 PM
We are all curious ... You should focus on supporting the natural barrier function and cleansing your skin in a way that doesn't disrupt the acid mantle, but is suffiecent cosmetically. For me, I use water or OCM if I'm wearing makeup

What is OCM?

ChloeDharma
May 15th, 2019, 01:45 PM
What is OCM?

Oil Cleansing Method. It's where you apply a liberal amount of oil to your face, massage it in and leave to soak for however long, then remove the oil with a (I presume) wet or damp flannel. It's the best make up removing method that I have found so far.

lapushka
May 15th, 2019, 01:49 PM
Oil Cleansing Method. It's where you apply a liberal amount of oil to your face, massage it in and leave to soak for however long, then remove the oil with a (I presume) wet or damp flannel. It's the best make up removing method that I have found so far.

I never used to use "liberal" amounts. Just a few drops on a cotton pad or ball, and rubbed across the face = more than enough and should do it. No need for tons of oil.

LadyCelestina
May 15th, 2019, 01:58 PM
I'm not fearmongering. I'm letting others know what I went through because of the ideas on this forum. When I joined there was one way to grow long hair; stretch washes, oil, wear updos as much as possible. All of which damaged my hair/scalp. No one here ever warned me otherwise. I thought I was doing everything right.

I want to save others the pain of years of oily, thin hair. Constantly wearing their hair up when they enjoy it down. I want other people to stick to what has been working for them for years. If it ain't broke don't fix it, just add some hair friendly habits. So when I see people promote these kinds of things to everyone I'm angry. I'm angry because if something doesn't work for you they tell you you're doing it wrong.

Clogged follicles are NOT the same as acne, trust me. Acne doesn't make your hair shed. Unless you want to tell me I'm wrong??? :rolling:

TLDR; Sebum can build up and is very bad for scalp health. Your scalp is more important than hair. Not even the "experts" on LHC really know anything. If you notice any extra shedding or itchies stop that method immediately.

So lurkers please be careful. Not everything you see on here is good for your individual hair/scalp. Don't try to make something work for you just because it works for others and they have long hair. Listen to your scalp. - recovering LHCer

I wasn't referring to you at all, and I don't even know what you posted in this thread, I remember you talking about how oiling made you shed in some other thread Wusel posted :confused: I was reffering to a post made by Joules about stretching washes and no-shampoo methods being wrong.

___

And yes, OCM is rubbing your face with oil and removing with a washcloth (or some people use another cleanser but I use washcloth). I use mineral oil the way ChloeDharma described, but you can use any oil you or your skin like.

ChloeDharma
May 15th, 2019, 02:06 PM
I never used to use "liberal" amounts. Just a few drops on a cotton pad or ball, and rubbed across the face = more than enough and should do it. No need for tons of oil.

Oh I combine it with a massage to really work it in and benefit from, well, the massage lol. I like plenty of slip for that. Plus with the amount of makeup it has to remove sometimes, trust me...more is more and even more is even better! ;) Lol Just speaking for myself of course, people can find their own balance.

LadyCelestina
May 15th, 2019, 02:08 PM
I never used to use "liberal" amounts. Just a few drops on a cotton pad or ball, and rubbed across the face = more than enough and should do it. No need for tons of oil.

Oooh I use a huge dollop of MO, take that off with a wet cotton pad and then add some more oil + wet washcloth :lol: But I do wear makeup.

MusicalSpoons
May 15th, 2019, 02:14 PM
Oh I combine it with a massage to really work it in and benefit from, well, the massage lol. I like plenty of slip for that. Plus with the amount of makeup it has to remove sometimes, trust me...more is more and even more is even better! ;) Lol Just speaking for myself of course, people can find their own balance.

I don't wear makeup but have found more oil to be better for dissolving the gunk in pores and thus cleaning them out :lol: otherwise it's not cleansing, just oiling - for my face, anyway.

lapushka
May 15th, 2019, 02:46 PM
Yeah, see, I don't wear make-up (bar lipstick), but that's I bet the difference!

ChloeDharma
May 15th, 2019, 03:07 PM
I don't wear makeup but have found more oil to be better for dissolving the gunk in pores and thus cleaning them out :lol: otherwise it's not cleansing, just oiling - for my face, anyway.

I started using oil to remove makeup and deep cleanse my face many years ago when heavy makeup was, I thought, essential! It got me into the habit of smothering my face with oil to remove layer upon layer of mascara and tons of eyeliner etc. These days I don't wear makeup anywhere near as ofetn as I did as a youngster but still like that smothered slip feel. I then apply a few drops of oil after washing the heavy application off as a moisturiser. I've kept this up for far too many years to change now lol.


Yeah, see, I don't wear make-up (bar lipstick), but that's I bet the difference!

Oh yes, a few drops on some cotton wool really isn't going to do much to a face full of makeup lol. We all develop what works for us though, less oil = less money spent replacing the empty bottles!

lapushka
May 15th, 2019, 03:22 PM
Oh yes, a few drops on some cotton wool really isn't going to do much to a face full of makeup lol. We all develop what works for us though, less oil = less money spent replacing the empty bottles!

LOL! :lol: Yeah, that's true. I barely go through oil!

Obsidian
May 15th, 2019, 10:53 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with sebum. Since I have seborrheic dermatitis I have to keep the oil under control but if I get too carried away with cleansing, my scalp gets dry and sore.

I wash almost daily but don't scrub my scalp every time. I only give it a deep clean every week or two unless the SD is acting up, then it gets scrubbed daily.

I do like to work sebum into my hair, it makes it so much softer then any plant oil. Unfortunately if my scalp gets oily enough to distribute sebum, its also too oily for the SD.

I can always tell when my scalp is getting build up by the gunk under my nails. A little flake here and there is ok but a bunch of gunk means a good wash is needed, possibly with a chelating shampoo.

As far as my face is concerned, I use a gentle cleanser most days but cold cream for removing makeup. The OCM actually dries my skin out and makes me break out.

Joules
May 16th, 2019, 12:36 PM
I wasn't referring to you at all, and I don't even know what you posted in this thread, I remember you talking about how oiling made you shed in some other thread Wusel posted :confused: I was reffering to a post made by Joules about stretching washes and no-shampoo methods being wrong.


I said things that I heard from doctors and that worked for more people than I originally imagined. So please reconsider calling my words ignorant. It's not fearmongering, it's a warning that I wish I had back when I just started the low-shampoo routine. It would have saved me so much trouble! I'm just grateful I didn't develop actual SD. And mind you, I had normal scalp. Not oily. Technically you could call me low-risk in terms of fungal overgrowth, and I screwed it up.

The whole "do what works for you" drill bugs me a lot, to be honest. There are limits when it comes to it. My low-poo habits worked for me for some time, and even when they stopped working and started to damage my scalp and hair it took me several months to discover what was going on, because neither me nor anyone else on this forum is a professional in the hair and scalp care field, you may just not realise some things.

Wusel
May 16th, 2019, 02:02 PM
The whole "do what works for you" drill bugs me a lot, to be honest. There are limits when it comes to it. My low-poo habits worked for me for some time, and even when they stopped working and started to damage my scalp and hair it took me several months to discover what was going on, because neither me nor anyone else on this forum is a professional in the hair and scalp care field, you may just not realise some things.

It was the same for me unfortunately... tried low-poo, sulphate free, no poo, condi washes... and it was not good for my scalp... What my scalp appreciates (I think but not 100% sure yet) is when I alternate between cones/sulphates and oils/no sulphates. Changing from week to week. My hair and scalp crave sulphs and cones often. But still, I'm not sure if it's the right routine for me forever. Sometimes I believe it could be but the next week something strange might happen to my scalp and I have to take my words back. Difficult. But what I defintely know is: My scalp has to be cleaned well regularly. Really well. With a ton of lather and a massage and sometimes even twice. Like, scrubbing that gunk off to the max. LOL.

lapushka
May 16th, 2019, 02:43 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with sebum. Since I have seborrheic dermatitis I have to keep the oil under control but if I get too carried away with cleansing, my scalp gets dry and sore.

I wash almost daily but don't scrub my scalp every time. I only give it a deep clean every week or two unless the SD is acting up, then it gets scrubbed daily.

I do like to work sebum into my hair, it makes it so much softer then any plant oil. Unfortunately if my scalp gets oily enough to distribute sebum, its also too oily for the SD.

I can always tell when my scalp is getting build up by the gunk under my nails. A little flake here and there is ok but a bunch of gunk means a good wash is needed, possibly with a chelating shampoo.

As far as my face is concerned, I use a gentle cleanser most days but cold cream for removing makeup. The OCM actually dries my skin out and makes me break out.

My face & scalp are polar opposites. My hair is oily/normal these days, used to be just oily (washes 2/3x a week and still oily and stretched). That means I can weekly wash. And I have SD. But my face is extremely dry.

My mom has normal facial skin but her scalp is bone dry (her last wash is almost 6 weeks ago).

It's so odd how that can be so different!

Liz H
May 17th, 2019, 05:16 AM
ChloeDarma
Lapushka
Lady Celestina
MusicalSpoons

Thanks for the info. I'll try it when my current bottle of cleanser gets low. I've also read that organic beef tallow is very good for the skin, as it's the closest to human fat.
What oil do you use? Is MO Moroccan Oil?

lapushka
May 17th, 2019, 05:46 AM
ChloeDarma
Lapushka
Lady Celestina
MusicalSpoons

Thanks for the info. I'll try it when my current bottle of cleanser gets low. I've also read that organic beef tallow is very good for the skin, as it's the closest to human fat.
What oil do you use? Is MO Moroccan Oil?

MO = mineral oil. There's an entire sticky on abbreviations on this forum; might have to look for it as I can't link to it right now. :)

ChloeDharma
May 17th, 2019, 05:54 AM
ChloeDarma
Lapushka
Lady Celestina
MusicalSpoons

Thanks for the info. I'll try it when my current bottle of cleanser gets low. I've also read that organic beef tallow is very good for the skin, as it's the closest to human fat.
What oil do you use? Is MO Moroccan Oil?

My oils do vary and I tend to switch about depending on how my skin feels, the season etc. Sweet almond oil is one that I find very good for deep cleaning my skin and removing makeup though.

LadyCelestina
May 17th, 2019, 06:10 AM
Liz, pure mineral oil (MO) is recommended as a good "starting out" oil, because it is very unlikely to cause acne or any bad reactions really, though YMMV. I use it because my skin is very reactive, and most plant oils cause breakouts for me.

LadyCelestina
May 17th, 2019, 06:30 AM
I said things that I heard from doctors and that worked for more people than I originally imagined. So please reconsider calling my words ignorant. It's not fearmongering, it's a warning that I wish I had back when I just started the low-shampoo routine. It would have saved me so much trouble! I'm just grateful I didn't develop actual SD. And mind you, I had normal scalp. Not oily. Technically you could call me low-risk in terms of fungal overgrowth, and I screwed it up.

The whole "do what works for you" drill bugs me a lot, to be honest. There are limits when it comes to it. My low-poo habits worked for me for some time, and even when they stopped working and started to damage my scalp and hair it took me several months to discover what was going on, because neither me nor anyone else on this forum is a professional in the hair and scalp care field, you may just not realise some things.

From trichologists or dermatologists? Was it general advice or you in particular advice?

Many people with opposite scalp conditions to ours (presumably you also wash frequently) choose alternative washing methods because they tend not to irritate surfactant sensitivities or conditions such as eczema. For those peope, the sebum either causes no issues or the alternative washing methods remove just enough sebum to maintain a healthy scalp, or even supply some emollients.

Personally, frequent washing with stronger sulfate shampoos actually gives me SD like symptoms, itching, a feeling of oily buildup and flaking, and this was true even for "seb derm" approved shampoos like H&S, Nizoral, Pantene Aqua Light, a local brand recommended by dermatologists...

ETA: I'm not trying to invalidate yours or young maid's or anyones experience, but the claims you made in your OP are pretty broad, and at times, imo, inaccurate. You wished you had warnings like yours when you started no poo - before no poo was a thing, people who have issues with the standard shampoo routine wished somebody told them about no poo :p

MusicalSpoons
May 17th, 2019, 08:40 AM
ChloeDarma
Lapushka
Lady Celestina
MusicalSpoons

Thanks for the info. I'll try it when my current bottle of cleanser gets low. I've also read that organic beef tallow is very good for the skin, as it's the closest to human fat.
What oil do you use? Is MO Moroccan Oil?

Sweet almond oil for me, because it was one I had to had and was cheap. Mineral oil is one of the cheapest (baby oil!).

I will say I don't often do it now, because I don't have the energy; when I get to cleanse/tone/moisturise it's with an oil-based cleanser which rinses off more easily and with cooler water. Usually I just wipe my face over with warm water and moisturise though, at the moment (or use face wash in the shower).

Back on topic: I'm one with an oily scalp but it's prone to dehydration, and sulphates make things worse. I haven't been able to go no-poo but I also know for sure that the more often I strip my scalp, the oilier it becomes. My face behaves in a very similar manner, so I really don't think it is due to sebum becoming waxy and stopping more from coming through. I've had the least shedding I've ever had with my current routine, so unless anyone can convince me that that's due to sebum blocking the pores and stopping the hairs coming out, I'm going to stick with not drying my poor scalp out with harsh shampoos. (Granted, I am trying out an ALES shampoo right now but it's not looking promising, so I very likely will go back to old faithful glucosides.) In the past I have had sore follicles from when I went several days without washing, but that has nowhere near happened for many years. The only sore follicles I get nowadays are on the rare occasion I forget that my scalp protests at buns on the top of my head :lol:

That said, I am grateful for the warnings because I know what to look out for, and it's taught me not to leave off washing for *too* long in case I do end up with fungal overgrowth. As with everything, it's about finding the balance and what works for one's own scalp - really honestly, I wish sulphates worked for me because it would be *so* much simpler and cheaper to pick up a 50p supermarket own-brand bottle, and use conditioner to protect and replenish the hair. But they don't, my scalp tolerates them for a few uses at best and them I'm back to itchy-flaky-town and if I keep going, my scalp gets very miserable (and so do I).

Joules
May 17th, 2019, 10:11 AM
It was the same for me unfortunately... tried low-poo, sulphate free, no poo, condi washes... and it was not good for my scalp... What my scalp appreciates (I think but not 100% sure yet) is when I alternate between cones/sulphates and oils/no sulphates. Changing from week to week. My hair and scalp crave sulphs and cones often. But still, I'm not sure if it's the right routine for me forever. Sometimes I believe it could be but the next week something strange might happen to my scalp and I have to take my words back. Difficult. But what I defintely know is: My scalp has to be cleaned well regularly. Really well. With a ton of lather and a massage and sometimes even twice. Like, scrubbing that gunk off to the max. LOL.

I shampoo twice every wash, and I scrub and rub for minutes to make sure I remove everything that's not securely attached to my scalp :lol: I also exfoliate every other wash and I just bought a shampoo with ketoconazole. My scalp and hair (surprisingly) has been doing wonderful ever since I started super aggressive washing, the only thing I regret is not starting it sooner.


From trichologists or dermatologists? Was it general advice or you in particular advice?

Many people with opposite scalp conditions to ours (presumably you also wash frequently) choose alternative washing methods because they tend not to irritate surfactant sensitivities or conditions such as eczema. For those peope, the sebum either causes no issues or the alternative washing methods remove just enough sebum to maintain a healthy scalp, or even supply some emollients.

Personally, frequent washing with stronger sulfate shampoos actually gives me SD like symptoms, itching, a feeling of oily buildup and flaking, and this was true even for "seb derm" approved shampoos like H&S, Nizoral, Pantene Aqua Light, a local brand recommended by dermatologists...

ETA: I'm not trying to invalidate yours or young maid's or anyones experience, but the claims you made in your OP are pretty broad, and at times, imo, inaccurate. You wished you had warnings like yours when you started no poo - before no poo was a thing, people who have issues with the standard shampoo routine wished somebody told them about no poo :p

I mention in my original post that whatever I said doesn't apply to people with dry scalp, various sensitivities and non-fungal scalp conditions like psoriasis and eczema. Well, maybe I forgot to mention the latter, but I thought it was obvious what type of scalp I was talking about.

Trichologists. And yes, it was a general advice. The vast majority is healthy, and also the vast majority has oily scalp type (I think the percentage of oily-haired people is around 75-80) (I'm talking about adults of childbearing age, little kids and the elderly don't count here) and therefore those rules can be applied to them. It's honestly great that this forum provides tons of options to people who aren't a part of those 80%, but I'm afraid there's still quite a number of people who should be washing daily with sulfates but aren't doing so because it's frowned upon by longhairs and the "organic" cosmetic industry. You can see it in every other newbie introduction thread, and it's alarming.

LadyCelestina
May 17th, 2019, 11:32 AM
So the trichologist recommended, explictly, that pretty damn near everyone should be washing their hair daily with a sulfate shampoo? That's very interesting, actually!

Btw, not sure what scalp type should you have to qualify for daily sulfate washing? Mine is oily and doing what you described absolutely DESTROYED it. Sores and all. Same experience as MusicalSpoons, went fine for a few washes. then went really, really bad.

blackgothicdoll
May 17th, 2019, 12:34 PM
Trichologists. And yes, it was a general advice. The vast majority is healthy, and also the vast majority has oily scalp type (I think the percentage of oily-haired people is around 75-80) (I'm talking about adults of childbearing age, little kids and the elderly don't count here) and therefore those rules can be applied to them. It's honestly great that this forum provides tons of options to people who aren't a part of those 80%, but I'm afraid there's still quite a number of people who should be washing daily with sulfates but aren't doing so because it's frowned upon by longhairs and the "organic" cosmetic industry. You can see it in every other newbie introduction thread, and it's alarming.

The vast majority of whom? The world? Russia? The town in which you live? The trichologists patients? What are the data points of that survey? A trichologist from Africa would probably have different data points, as would a trichologist in India, or one in China. Is it possible the trichologists you have been seeing are referring to their patient base, which in Russia I'm presuming would be mostly Russian?

eta: I'm sorry, I'm assuming Russian by your location though it could be a different country in that area but you get my drift

Wusel
May 17th, 2019, 12:56 PM
The vast majority of whom? The world? Russia? The town in which you live? The trichologists patients? What are the data points of that survey? A trichologist from Africa would probably have different data points, as would a trichologist in India, or one in China. Is it possible the trichologists you have been seeing are referring to their patient base, which in Russia I'm presuming would be mostly Russian?

eta: I'm sorry, I'm assuming Russian by your location though it could be a different country in that area but you get my drift

We have great Vodka in Germany too. And in Poland where I'm from we use to shower in Vodka.:bounce::bounce::bounce:

blackgothicdoll
May 19th, 2019, 05:43 PM
We have great Vodka in Germany too. And in Poland where I'm from we use to shower in Vodka.:bounce::bounce::bounce:

Wha?? That sounds like a waste of vodka :beer:

Joules
May 20th, 2019, 05:28 AM
The vast majority of whom? The world? Russia? The town in which you live? The trichologists patients? What are the data points of that survey? A trichologist from Africa would probably have different data points, as would a trichologist in India, or one in China. Is it possible the trichologists you have been seeing are referring to their patient base, which in Russia I'm presuming would be mostly Russian?

eta: I'm sorry, I'm assuming Russian by your location though it could be a different country in that area but you get my drift

I don't know which data points trichologists refer to in trichology school. Frankly, I don't care. I suppose Russian trichologists refer to white/Caucasian population since Russia is predominantly white. Oily scalp in adults of childbearing age is just as common and just as normal as oily face and minor acne in teenagers (and they both come from the same place- hormones). No one doubts the latter and no one makes any racial distinctions there, why does this scalp fact bother you so much? Did you get offended when I doubted words of a self-proclaimed internet guru and chose to believe a professional instead?

iforgotmylogin
May 20th, 2019, 05:30 AM
When a 10 gallon hat isn't tall enough

Joules
May 20th, 2019, 05:30 AM
We have great Vodka in Germany too. And in Poland where I'm from we use to shower in Vodka.:bounce::bounce::bounce:

In Russia we use vodka to wash our tanks in which we drive to work and back home every day :lol:

blackgothicdoll
May 20th, 2019, 05:48 AM
I don't know which data points trichologists refer to in trichology school. Frankly, I don't care. I suppose Russian trichologists refer to white/Caucasian population since Russia is predominantly white. Oily scalp in adults of childbearing age is just as common and just as normal as oily face and minor acne in teenagers (and they both come from the same place- hormones). No one doubts the latter and no one makes any racial distinctions there, why does this scalp fact bother you so much? Did you get offended when I doubted words of a self-proclaimed internet guru and chose to believe a professional instead?

I'm not offended, (and I'm frankly tired of the trend of accusing people of being offended just because they don't agree) I'm irritated that you would essentially say that nobody in LHC should listen to anyone in LHC (as this is not a forum of trichologists) except for yourself, because a trichologist told you, yet provide no further facts or details. If you don't care about the data points you have no place interrogating me or anyone else on their right to speak on something, because you are just as factually void as this YouTuber and anyone else on this forum who provides advice (well, more so, since many members at least provide sources).

And let's be real, I think the scalp facts bother you most because you go from thread to thread insistently telling people to wash their scalps and going on the same tangent about scalp fungus and this International Trichologist of Mystery you visit, somehow unable to accept that not everyone in the world is just like you (and not 80%, either). Or maybe they are, but again, not a single viable source.

Never had an oily face as a teen either btw *shrug*. I'm beginning to feel really special.

lapushka
May 20th, 2019, 06:20 AM
I'm not offended, (and I'm frankly tired of the trend of accusing people of being offended just because they don't agree) I'm irritated that you would essentially say that nobody in LHC should listen to anyone in LHC (as this is not a forum of trichologists) except for yourself, because a trichologist told you, yet provide no further facts or details. If you don't care about the data points you have no place interrogating me or anyone else on their right to speak on something, because you are just as factually void as this YouTuber and anyone else on this forum who provides advice (well, more so, since many members at least provide sources).

And let's be real, I think the scalp facts bother you most because you go from thread to thread insistently telling people to wash their scalps and going on the same tangent about scalp fungus and this International Trichologist of Mystery you visit, somehow unable to accept that not everyone in the world is just like you (and not 80%, either). Or maybe they are, but again, not a single viable source.

Never had an oily face as a teen either btw *shrug*. I'm beginning to feel really special.

Not wanting to get into the argument further between the two of you! :flower: Please... no!

But I just wanted to remind *everyone* that we use the term YMMV, your mileage may vary, on this forum for good reason. :)

Wusel
May 20th, 2019, 08:30 AM
Not wanting to get into the argument further between the two of you! :flower: Please... no!

But I just wanted to remind *everyone* that we use the term YMMV, your mileage may vary, on this forum for good reason. :)

Finally I know what that means. :)

lapushka
May 20th, 2019, 09:49 AM
Finally I know what that means. :)

It is not an LHC acronym, it is an old-school internet acronym. ;) :p

Wusel
May 20th, 2019, 01:43 PM
It is not an LHC acronym, it is an old-school internet acronym. ;) :p

Good to know :) I learn a lot here :D