Need help with Etsy dilemma...objective opinions please!

[lunasea]

Hi all, I have an Etsy situation right now and I don't know what the right thing to do about it is.

On March 8th I purchased a hairtoy from a seller in Russia and on March 10th I purchased a hairtoy from a different Russian seller. Then, of course, I started waiting. I watched tracking and the two packages went through the different stations in the Russian Federation and, at one point, tracking showed them both in the same station at the same time. The second item eventually entered US customs and arrived here about a week and a half ago. The first item (purchased on March 8th) never arrived here and tracking still shows it in the same station in the Russian Federation.

I contacted the seller and asked about the package. He said that he was aware of the situation and that a group of items he shipped on that day hadn't reached their destination. He asked that I file a missing package form in the US because he contacted the authorities there and was told by his Post Office that the items left Russia. He said that he has limited ability to do anything in the US since he is in Russia. I told him that I would go to the Post Office but that I doubted that anything would happen on this end because the item never shows as being received by US customs. I did go and that's exactly what I was told. He has filed a missing package form online. He then said we need to wait and hope for the best. Obviously, I've been waiting for well over a month at this point

Personally, I think the item is lost and never showing up here. I believe he mailed the item in good faith but the fact remains that I paid for something that I never received. He has been compensated for his item and I have received....nothing. He has made no offer to compensate me- even with a discounted replacement. I'm pretty a unhappy customer even though I believe that the loss of the package isn't his fault.

On the Etsy reviews there is a place to say that you never received the item. I didn't and, given that I was never offered any kind of compensation, I am considering noting that I didn't get it. Because I am unhappy right now I'm not sure my judgement is objective.

What do you all think is right here?

[daisy rei]

I have had items from Russia take over two months to get here. I honestly would just wait. Your item is more than likely sitting on a shelf somewhere in customs but still perfectly intact, and on its way. :)

[Nightshade]

Let's deal with the technical aspects of how this is going to shake out because of Etsy and Shop policies first and then we can get into the more subjective bits about how everyone feels about it.

It's Etsy's site-wide policy that if a seller can prove they shipped the item (have a tracking number and a purchase receipt for the postage) then they are no longer responsible for that package. The seller is not responsible for the actions of third parties, and their duty is only to fulfill their part of the contract, which goes up to shipping the item by the shipping method you chose/agreed upon at check out.

You could also look at the seller's shop policies. For example, I outright declare in mine that I am not responsible for lost or missing packages and that if a buyer is concerned about this, they should select a method of shipping that has both tracking and insurance to cover their losses if it doesn't arrive.

Because of the first item, and potentially the second, if you leave feedback saying you never received the package, but the seller can prove they sent it, they can ask Etsy to remove the review, and Etsy likely will.


Subjectively, this is one of those really crappy situations that sucks all around because nobody really wins. You didn't get the item you paid for, and if the seller sends you another, now they are out the cost of time for TWO items and shipping twice (meaning making you happy is putting them in the hole financially for that transaction) and the party to blame (the post office) is the one party in this that cause it and yet suffers none of the consequences for it.

As a seller, what I tend to do in these (thankfully rare) lost international package situations is to offer to split the difference. Often this is me offering to re-send the items (so I eat the cost of the products) but asking the buyer to pay for shipping a second time (so they eat the cost of shipping). It's not great, but it's the best no-fault solution I've found where each side acknowledges that this really isn't either person's fault, and both sides give a little so the ultimate desired outcome is reached (more or less happy customer who got their products in the end).

[lunasea]

There is nothing on the site that says that the shop is not responsible for lost packages but, even with that, I still believe that this wasn't his fault. And there was no option for insured shipping.

Mostly I think that I am upset that he hasn't offered to split the difference. I would do that but, for some reason, I expect him to make the offer. If he did that I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from him in the future. Now I'm kind of feeling that the customer service aspect of the shop is not so good.

[florenonite]

There is nothing on the site that says that the shop is not responsible for lost packages but, even with that, I still believe that this wasn't his fault. And there was no option for insured shipping.

Mostly I think that I am upset that he hasn't offered to split the difference. I would do that but, for some reason, I expect him to make the offer. If he did that I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from him in the future. Now I'm kind of feeling that the customer service aspect of the shop is not so good.

I think that's an unfair expectation on a site where the majority of sellers are either doing it as a second job or barely scraping by. Let's say the hair toy + shipping cost $100. For a major retailer, they're spending less to send you a replacement than they spend on the wages of one of their thousands of warehouse employees. For an Etsy shop owner, that's a significant chunk of money.

Remember as well that he said this applies to all the packages he mailed out that day. If he has 10, 20 customers in the same situation and offered to split the difference for all of them? The cost of materials alone could become prohibitive.

Honestly, I think your best option for now is what you've already done: filing a claim with the postal service. And beyond that, hopefully it turns up soon - I've had packages take weeks to arrive from abroad in the past.

[Nightshade]

There is nothing on the site that says that the shop is not responsible for lost packages but, even with that, I still believe that this wasn't his fault. And there was no option for insured shipping.

It's not easy to find, but it does exist here among other places on Etsy (https://www.etsy.com/legal/policy/cases-for-buyers/243306189901):

A buyer can open a case for non-delivery or an item being not as described.

From their policies:
---------------------

Non-Delivery
A non-delivery occurs when a buyer places an order but does not receive the item. Non-delivery cases include when:

There is no proof that the item was shipped to the buyer.
An item was sent to an address that is not on the Etsy receipt.
Etsy doesn't hold sellers responsible for shipping delays or errors, as long as the seller can prove that they shipped the item on time to the address on the Etsy receipt. If the item was shipped and has a tracking number, you may be able to contact the shipping carrier directly to open a claim.

-------------------





Mostly I think that I am upset that he hasn't offered to split the difference. I would do that but, for some reason, I expect him to make the offer. If he did that I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from him in the future. Now I'm kind of feeling that the customer service aspect of the shop is not so good.

I think it's fair to feel that way.

My suggestions, for what they're worth:
- Make the offer to the seller to split the difference and see if he's agreeable to it. It SEEMS obvious, but that was a solution I didn't discover for a few years.

- Wait it out a bit more. The number of packages I've sent out that NEVER arrived is astonishingly few. Maybe 6 or 10 across 12 years of running my store. These packages are almost always either returned to their seller or make it to their destination, but often takes 2-3 months.

- If you still feel compelled to leave negative feedback, reach out to the seller first and see what he's willing to do for you. If that doesn't resolve the matter to your satisfaction and you still want to leave a review and don't want it removed by Etsy, I would mention directly in your feedback that the package never arrived and you are aware the seller is not responsible for the actions of third parties, but that you would have appreciated either an offer to split the difference and would like to see an insured method of shipping offered in the future.

[lapushka]

If I were you I would note it as never received the item. Because it is the truth. A seller might have a different POV, but from a customer's POV, that is what I would do. You can't lie and say you have received it, surely? :)

[lunasea]

I absolutely would not say that I received something that I didn't.

It's reassuring to me that Nightshade said that she didn't have the idea of splitting the difference for a time because it does seem obvious to me but I guess it's not to everyone so maybe my expectation of that offer from the seller is a bit unrealistic (I think Nightshade is probably pretty, darn smart and if she didn't think of it, it must not be obvious). So perhaps I will broach the subject of a split-the-difference-compromise with the seller. Should I wait for the package for a full two months before asking?

Also want to say that I understand that many sellers are working on a limited budget but, who's to say I'm not doing the same and have saved for months to scrape up the money for this hairtoy? How is it more fair that I am completely out the purchase price? Nightshade hit it on the head when she said the mail system is culpable and will take no hit for this. It's all very annoying and, now that I think about it, I'm probably channeling my anger at the seller because I know I can realistically do nothing about the mail system. :justy: Still, I want to feel like the seller understands the situation is unfair too and makes some effort to mollify me. Like I said, I'm pretty unhappy right now.

[Groovy Granny]

Oh no :(

That IS frustrating (((Hugs)))

I have never had it happen on Etsy, but know I would be very impatient waiting another month.

If the option to report it as having not been received is there by Etsy timing then report it, especially where the owner hasn't made an offer to help.
Unless you want to approach him with the 'go half' proposition first....and if he isn't being helpful then report it.....your callon that one.

You are out of your hard earned $ plus the item....and he has been paid.

It's not fair to either party if it is a mail issue, but customers should have protection as well; Amazon is good about such things...Etsy should be too.

Ugh....goodluck; I hope it is resolved positively...soon :pray:

[Sarahlabyrinth]

I think that if it were me I would wait another month and then report that i had not received the item.

[Nightshade]

I absolutely would not say that I received something that I didn't.

It's reassuring to me that Nightshade said that she didn't have the idea of splitting the difference for a time because it does seem obvious to me but I guess it's not to everyone so maybe my expectation of that offer from the seller is a bit unrealistic (I think Nightshade is probably pretty, darn smart and if she didn't think of it, it must not be obvious). So perhaps I will broach the subject of a split-the-difference-compromise with the seller. Should I wait for the package for a full two months before asking?

Also want to say that I understand that many sellers are working on a limited budget but, who's to say I'm not doing the same and have saved for months to scrape up the money for this hairtoy? How is it more fair that I am completely out the purchase price? Nightshade hit it on the head when she said the mail system is culpable and will take no hit for this. It's all very annoying and, now that I think about it, I'm probably channeling my anger at the seller because I know I can realistically do nothing about the mail system. :justy: Still, I want to feel like the seller understands the situation is unfair too and makes some effort to mollify me. Like I said, I'm pretty unhappy right now.

Yeah, when I stumbled on the splitting the difference thing I was very much like... "Wow, I'm a numpty, why didn't I think of that sooner?" but I simply hadn't. I was caught in between wanting to make my customers happy, but also pissed that the post office's actions was going to not only chew up the cost of a replacement, but ALSO the cost of making and fulfilling that replacement. I've been on both sides of this, as a seller, and also as a customer that has ordered things internationally and had them go missing and it really, really sucks. And like you said, the one entity culpable for this is just going to shrug their shoulders and go "sorry, can't do anything about it."

Now THAT said, my shop policies state that I'm not responsible for lost packages, and so does Etsy and that's my fallback. I've had people attempt to scam me in the past, extort free products, etc so those are there for my protection. That way it's my choice as a seller to extend that split-the-difference-offer.

I think since you're obviously wanting to DO something about this (I'm the same way, when I get a bee in my bonnet I'm pretty much that way until I've done some action on a situation", why don't you reach out to the seller again and try something like:

"Hello again! Thank you again for filling out the missing package form for my item. I understand that this is kind of a no-win situation for both of us so what about this:

- I'll wait until XX date [ make sure this is a date before you are no longer able to leave feedback on the item, I think for international packages this is six months, but I might be wrong ] to see if the package either arrives, or if it is found by the post office and returned to you

- If it's returned to you [ insert solution, perhaps splitting the cost of shipping it a second time]

- If the package doesn't turn up, would you be open to splitting the difference? If you would be willing to provide a replacement fork, I would be willing to pay for shipping a second time.

Hopefully we can resolve this situation to everyone's satisfaction :)"


This way you're laying out a series of actions along with clear dates and responsibilities, which I think will get you farther than threatening a negative review that the seller is probably very aware he can get removed. If things STILL go south after this, you can leave feedback that focuses on your communications with the seller and less so that you never received an item.

[Nightshade]

If the option to report it as having not been received is there by Etsy timing then report it, especially where the owner hasn't made an offer to help.
Unless you want to approach him with the 'go half' proposition first....and if he isn't being helpful then report it.....your callon that one.

You are out of your hard earned $ plus the item....and he has been paid.

It's not fair to either party if it is a mail issue, but customers should have protection as well; Amazon is good about such things...Etsy should be too.

Ugh....goodluck; I hope it is resolved positively...soon :pray:


The problem with this is that Amazon, as Flor pointed out, has hundreds of billions of dollars with which they can eat those costs to make their customers happy, Etsy is not Amazon-- each shop on Etsy is an independent entity and so Etsy takes none of that responsibility, and the microbusiness takes it all

And Etsy does offer protections for the buyer--you can file a complaint if the buyer never shipped the item (they have to provide proof to Etsy that they did).

For "he has been paid" he has. For his time and effort and materials that are now in a box sitting in who-knows-where. He doesn't win in this situation, either. If he replaces the item and ships it, he is out his time and materials twice over.

And having filed a 'lost package' report online several times, I've always gotten a follow up email saying 'package not found' and then usually a few days later the customer tells me that their very, VERY late package has arrived.

I'm sympathetic to both sides on this one, I've been on either end of it and it's miserable.

[Groovy Granny]

Good point re: Amazon....I missed Flor's post....was busy reading Lunasea's.
You are privy to more details being an owner, so thanks for the info!

It is not easy for either side I'm sure...but especially tough on a customer who is out of their money and what they ordered!

Here's hoping it turns out well in the end for you Lunasea....and soon :pray:

[lunasea]

I like the idea of offering a series of actions with timelines. I don't want to leave any kind of negative feedback before objectively looking at what's going on. So often people dash off negative things online (and IRL for that matter) without trying to see other perspectives. I cringe when I see it happen and don't want to be part of the problem. I must sleep on this before I contact him again. Thank you all for offering your advice. I feel there are options now.

[Groovy Granny]

Having options makes it tolerable for sure.

Yeah some people have no mercy.

Anytime the result changed for me .......no matter how long it took.....I was sure to update my reviews to reflect it.

[Kat]

Let's deal with the technical aspects of how this is going to shake out because of Etsy and Shop policies first and then we can get into the more subjective bits about how everyone feels about it.

It's Etsy's site-wide policy that if a seller can prove they shipped the item (have a tracking number and a purchase receipt for the postage) then they are no longer responsible for that package. The seller is not responsible for the actions of third parties, and their duty is only to fulfill their part of the contract, which goes up to shipping the item by the shipping method you chose/agreed upon at check out.

You could also look at the seller's shop policies. For example, I outright declare in mine that I am not responsible for lost or missing packages and that if a buyer is concerned about this, they should select a method of shipping that has both tracking and insurance to cover their losses if it doesn't arrive.

Because of the first item, and potentially the second, if you leave feedback saying you never received the package, but the seller can prove they sent it, they can ask Etsy to remove the review, and Etsy likely will.


Subjectively, this is one of those really crappy situations that sucks all around because nobody really wins. You didn't get the item you paid for, and if the seller sends you another, now they are out the cost of time for TWO items and shipping twice (meaning making you happy is putting them in the hole financially for that transaction) and the party to blame (the post office) is the one party in this that cause it and yet suffers none of the consequences for it.

As a seller, what I tend to do in these (thankfully rare) lost international package situations is to offer to split the difference. Often this is me offering to re-send the items (so I eat the cost of the products) but asking the buyer to pay for shipping a second time (so they eat the cost of shipping). It's not great, but it's the best no-fault solution I've found where each side acknowledges that this really isn't either person's fault, and both sides give a little so the ultimate desired outcome is reached (more or less happy customer who got their products in the end).

The problem is, I don't know if Russia is like the U.S., but U.S. Postal can only work with the shipper. The recipient can't make an insurance claim; they are powerless to do anything but wait and hope something arrives. So, if seller can prove he sent the package, he's off the hook, but OP will still be out the item, with no recourse. A seller, however, can refund the buyer and then make an insurance claim.

[lapushka]

I have to say, I have had this experience one time, with a Quattro fork. It was so long already and still nothing. So, before leaving a review, I private messaged him and told him it was longer than usual and I hadn't received this item. He said yes, I should have gotten it by now. He told me *immediately* he would replace it, no questions asked. To me that is worth the price I pay for Quattro items. The customer service is beyond anything I've ever experienced.

But if the seller doesn't reach out like that, what can you do? :shrug:

It's sad, though. :(

[Nightshade]

The problem is, I don't know if Russia is like the U.S., but U.S. Postal can only work with the shipper. The recipient can't make an insurance claim; they are powerless to do anything but wait and hope something arrives. So, if seller can prove he sent the package, he's off the hook, but OP will still be out the item, with no recourse. A seller, however, can refund the buyer and then make an insurance claim.

It kind of depends because the post office in the US also won't work with a seller after a certain point. Not that it's the case here, but once a package is marked as delivered, the post office will not give me any details because the delivery is a private residence and they don't want to be giving the details of where they left a package to anyone but the owner of the house. In that case, the buyer has to be the one to work with the post office and file a claim.

tl:dr- We need teleportation for packages already :lol:

[lunasea]

Yeah, the PO is like that. They ran an internal search when I went to check on the package. I asked for a reference number or copy of the search and they wouldn't give me anything because it was "confidential". That said, I glanced at the sheet while I was talking to the guy behind the desk and it didn't really show anything more about the package than I could access online with tracking.

[Obsidian]

I've had international packages get lost before, one took a good three months to get to me. We had both given up on it and she was getting a new package ready when it finally arrived.
If you do end up getting a replacement, think about what to do if sometime in the future the first stick does show up.

[lunasea]

Yeah, I've had that happen where an item came REALLY late. The box was ripped open with the contents spilled out and the whole thing had been chucked into a plastic baggie.

Part of the reason I am willing to wait is that I don't want to get in a situation where a replacement is sent and the original item arrives. Obviously that would need to be resolved too.

[SurprisingWoman]

If you paid through paypal you can file a claim with them.

[lunasea]

Can you do that with any amount?

[MidnightMoon]

While I completely understand being upset for not receiving a product you paid for, I don't see how it's his fault or why he should be offering a replacement. If I order food through a delivery (not hired by the restaurant) and on the way here the driver falls off his bike and it's ruined or doesn't arrive at all I wouldn't blame the restaurant or expect them to send the items once more...
Etsy already takes money from sellers, he spent time doing the item, buying materials, going to the post office, and now he has to do it once more for free? The fault is from the post office...
I would wait, though, because I remember packages taking several weeks even in Europe, so it might just be stuck somewhere.
I also recovered a package after months of traveling around the world (ended up in 3 continents lol) but it did arrive somewhere in the end.

[sourgrl]

I have had items from Russia take over two months to get here. I honestly would just wait. Your item is more than likely sitting on a shelf somewhere in customs but still perfectly intact, and on its way. :)

I've had the same experience with my Russian packages. For some reason my packages from Russia just snail along so I give them about a month and a half before I start to worry (though I still do). These delays are the reason PayPal has extended the time to file a claim. Thankfully I haven't needed to file a claim because eventually they suddenly arrive. And they look like they just spent time sitting on a shelf waiting for their turn on the boat :)

[Sterlyn]

My take on who is responsible for lost packages purchased from online sellers is maybe a bit different. I have been on both sides of this issue as well, with more than a few packages lost or not delivered to my mail box but marked delivered.

I don't think it's fair that buyers get stuck with paying for something they didn't receive because the delivery service screwed up or lost it. If sellers want to do business on the web, then dealing with packages that didn't arrive is part of their cost of doing business. They would have a lot more costs with a brick and mortar store and in most cases not enough sales to stay open.

Also if you paid by PayPal, you have up to 6 months to file a claim of nondelivery. I've had to do this a few times as a buyer and PayPal got our money back. I'm not sure how applicable this would be for a seller in Russia but they really should look into insuring packages. I don't think it's fair for sellers to shrug their shoulders and say, "sorry it didn't make it to you, but it's not my problem", shipping is part of the online business, and as a seller they need to address it instead of sticking it to the buyer.

My 2 cents, for what it's worth. Also Lunasea I hope your issue gets resolved. I have had a package arrive nearly 3 months after it was deemed lost too.

Edited to add; I just looked up one of the companies that insures packages. They will not insure packages going to russia, so I'm assuming they won't insure packages coming from Russia. Not sure if the insurance carrier Etsy uses would include Russia or not.

Either way I still thinks the responsibility rests with the seller to address this. He wouldn't have a business without a postal service to deliver his goods to customers.

[RavennaNight]

So, I’m just going to chime in and say that I’ve ordered things from Etsy, Bandcamp, and other sites that are international and sometimes it has taken months upon months to receive items. I just wait it out, the postal systems are not uniform systems across the world. I find Russia and Ukraine take very long, and so do some items from Sweden.

[lunasea]

Good news everyone! According to tracking the package arrived in New York at 1:00 AM this morning. Amazing!

It is completely confusing to me that the two Russian packages were in the same Russian facilities on March 14 and one arrived almost two weeks ago and the other is still on the way.

This is a lesson about watching tracking to me. I probably wouldn't have been concerned about the whole thing if the item that I purchased second hadn't arrived first after being in the same facility as the first item for a while (geez, how confusing was that sentence anyway).

Thank you to everyone who chimed in on this. It has been really interesting seeing the different perspectives.

[Obsidian]

I was told that some custom offices are so overcrowded that smaller packages can get shoved to the back or even fall behind shelves where they are overlooked for a time. Its not always a nice neat organized place like PO would be.
I occasionally order from wish, it can take two week to 4 months before a package makes it here. I've had some permanently lost but at least they are good about offering replacement or refund.
Glad to hear your stick is in the home stretch.

[Groovy Granny]

Great news ~ I am very happy for you :cheer:

Overseas shipping makes me crazy....coming or going; now I refrain from it (sadly) because of the expense, sketchy tracking if at all, and no insurance.

[Kat]

It kind of depends because the post office in the US also won't work with a seller after a certain point. Not that it's the case here, but once a package is marked as delivered, the post office will not give me any details because the delivery is a private residence and they don't want to be giving the details of where they left a package to anyone but the owner of the house. In that case, the buyer has to be the one to work with the post office and file a claim.

tl:dr- We need teleportation for packages already :lol:

That's silly... the seller already has the buyer's address...

But in this case, it's not shown as delivered. It's just that everyone is denying responsibility-- tracking shows it's in Russia, Russia swears they don't have it, U.S. swears they don't have it either...

[lapushka]

My take on who is responsible for lost packages purchased from online sellers is maybe a bit different. I have been on both sides of this issue as well, with more than a few packages lost or not delivered to my mail box but marked delivered.

I don't think it's fair that buyers get stuck with paying for something they didn't receive because the delivery service screwed up or lost it. If sellers want to do business on the web, then dealing with packages that didn't arrive is part of their cost of doing business. They would have a lot more costs with a brick and mortar store and in most cases not enough sales to stay open.

Also if you paid by PayPal, you have up to 6 months to file a claim of nondelivery. I've had to do this a few times as a buyer and PayPal got our money back. I'm not sure how applicable this would be for a seller in Russia but they really should look into insuring packages. I don't think it's fair for sellers to shrug their shoulders and say, "sorry it didn't make it to you, but it's not my problem", shipping is part of the online business, and as a seller they need to address it instead of sticking it to the buyer.

^^ I totally agree with you!

[lapushka]

Good news everyone! According to tracking the package arrived in New York at 1:00 AM this morning. Amazing!

It is completely confusing to me that the two Russian packages were in the same Russian facilities on March 14 and one arrived almost two weeks ago and the other is still on the way.

This is a lesson about watching tracking to me. I probably wouldn't have been concerned about the whole thing if the item that I purchased second hadn't arrived first after being in the same facility as the first item for a while (geez, how confusing was that sentence anyway).

Thank you to everyone who chimed in on this. It has been really interesting seeing the different perspectives.

That is good news! Hope it arrives soon! :)

[lunasea]

That is good news! Hope it arrives soon! :)

I will keep you all informed!

[Nightshade]

Good news everyone! According to tracking the package arrived in New York at 1:00 AM this morning. Amazing!

It is completely confusing to me that the two Russian packages were in the same Russian facilities on March 14 and one arrived almost two weeks ago and the other is still on the way.

This is a lesson about watching tracking to me. I probably wouldn't have been concerned about the whole thing if the item that I purchased second hadn't arrived first after being in the same facility as the first item for a while (geez, how confusing was that sentence anyway).

Thank you to everyone who chimed in on this. It has been really interesting seeing the different perspectives.

This honestly doesn't surprise me XD the number of times I have had someone contact me about a package that hasn't arrived yet and then it shows up in the next day or so is really, really common and I have no idea why it happens that way.


ETA: Re: that packages from Russia can't be insured-- that's something we should probably take into account as a risk when ordering from there.

[Alexandrina]

Just read through this thread, what a rollercoaster! Glad it worked out, must have been stressful for you, lunasea. Since it worked out in the end, did the experience change your willingness to order from that shop again?

[lunasea]

Actually, yes....it was the shop owner who sent the email this morning that the package arrived in New York. The status hadn’t changed on Etsy tracking but when I entered the number in the USPS system....there it was. It was good of him to communicate the change in status right away. Now I’m thinking that he has more experience with situations like this than me and knew it was premature to be looking at replacing the item.

[Darkhorse1]

Let's deal with the technical aspects of how this is going to shake out because of Etsy and Shop policies first and then we can get into the more subjective bits about how everyone feels about it.

It's Etsy's site-wide policy that if a seller can prove they shipped the item (have a tracking number and a purchase receipt for the postage) then they are no longer responsible for that package. The seller is not responsible for the actions of third parties, and their duty is only to fulfill their part of the contract, which goes up to shipping the item by the shipping method you chose/agreed upon at check out.

You could also look at the seller's shop policies. For example, I outright declare in mine that I am not responsible for lost or missing packages and that if a buyer is concerned about this, they should select a method of shipping that has both tracking and insurance to cover their losses if it doesn't arrive.

Because of the first item, and potentially the second, if you leave feedback saying you never received the package, but the seller can prove they sent it, they can ask Etsy to remove the review, and Etsy likely will.


Subjectively, this is one of those really crappy situations that sucks all around because nobody really wins. You didn't get the item you paid for, and if the seller sends you another, now they are out the cost of time for TWO items and shipping twice (meaning making you happy is putting them in the hole financially for that transaction) and the party to blame (the post office) is the one party in this that cause it and yet suffers none of the consequences for it.

As a seller, what I tend to do in these (thankfully rare) lost international package situations is to offer to split the difference. Often this is me offering to re-send the items (so I eat the cost of the products) but asking the buyer to pay for shipping a second time (so they eat the cost of shipping). It's not great, but it's the best no-fault solution I've found where each side acknowledges that this really isn't either person's fault, and both sides give a little so the ultimate desired outcome is reached (more or less happy customer who got their products in the end).

That doesn't seem fair. If he has been compensated twice, then she should be given a refund. If the item is NOT in the US Post, then it is up to him to contact the Russian Post office if that is what is showing, to get the item moving. I have had this same situation, though me being in Canada, I was able to contact the US post office the item was in, and bless that worker who found it---they had altered the address on the package. I was sending it from a sale from ebay, but to me, as the seller, and to have an item shipped with coverage, then the buyer has a right to be upset and want money back or another item from the store. I mean, the seller and buyer can come up with a compromise, but I was livid when I found my item just sitting in a post office and found the location was wrong, after I put the correct address on it and someone changed it??? So, I wonder if this is a similar situation. I would see if he can contact them--I mean, in this day and age, I'm sure he can, and go from there. The postal system seems to be falling apart globally and it's starting to really tick me off. If people don't want to do the job, fine, let someone who wants a job do it right!

[lapushka]

That doesn't seem fair. If he has been compensated twice, then she should be given a refund. If the item is NOT in the US Post, then it is up to him to contact the Russian Post office if that is what is showing, to get the item moving. I have had this same situation, though me being in Canada, I was able to contact the US post office the item was in, and bless that worker who found it---they had altered the address on the package. I was sending it from a sale from ebay, but to me, as the seller, and to have an item shipped with coverage, then the buyer has a right to be upset and want money back or another item from the store. I mean, the seller and buyer can come up with a compromise, but I was livid when I found my item just sitting in a post office and found the location was wrong, after I put the correct address on it and someone changed it??? So, I wonder if this is a similar situation. I would see if he can contact them--I mean, in this day and age, I'm sure he can, and go from there. The postal system seems to be falling apart globally and it's starting to really tick me off. If people don't want to do the job, fine, let someone who wants a job do it right!

The package is on its way, if you read the rest of the thread. ;)

[Stray_mind]

Well, the lesson here i guess is that we should Wait, before we jump the throats of anyone :lol:

I had simmilar situations before when i Seemingly received an item on the online shop, but irl i didn't, and then it arrives a few weeks later.

[TatsuOni]

It's great to here that the package is on it's way again :)

Last year I had to wait almost three months to receive a package from NightBlooming. It was lost in Sweden and honestly, our postal service is known for being bad. It's pretty much a running joke in all off Sweden and often in the newspaper how badly they've screwed things up. Anyway, it did show up and I was very happy to receive it :)

[Nightshade]

It's great to here that the package is on it's way again :)

Last year I had to wait almost three months to receive a package from NightBlooming. It was lost in Sweden and honestly, our postal service is known for being bad. It's pretty much a running joke in all off Sweden and often in the newspaper how badly they've screwed things up. Anyway, it did show up and I was very happy to receive it :)

I remember that one.

The winner was the package that I think was going to Sweden that took a side adventure to JAPAN for no reason at all. :lol:

[GrowlingCupcake]

Good news everyone! According to tracking the package arrived in New York at 1:00 AM this morning. Amazing!

It is completely confusing to me that the two Russian packages were in the same Russian facilities on March 14 and one arrived almost two weeks ago and the other is still on the way.

This is a lesson about watching tracking to me. I probably wouldn't have been concerned about the whole thing if the item that I purchased second hadn't arrived first after being in the same facility as the first item for a while (geez, how confusing was that sentence anyway).

Thank you to everyone who chimed in on this. It has been really interesting seeing the different perspectives.

Glad it is on its way to you :)

Also, other than just crowded customs facilities, if it is big (and a regional, international shipping centre is probably on the larger side), that is another way things could get moved out at different times. They'd work on stuff that arrived with package A, and move onto the next one later.

Packages from Russia take at least a month to get to me. Ukraine takes forever, too, and I'm currently having issues with a package from there.

[TatsuOni]

I remember that one.

The winner was the package that I think was going to Sweden that took a side adventure to JAPAN for no reason at all. :lol:

That's quite a detour :laugh:

[Nightshade]

Since this is mostly sorted, I have another related question to posit for people:

I'm often asked to, if we're not mincing words, lie on customs forms (undervaluing the package and declaring it as a gift) because people, understandably, do not want to pay tons on tax and duty when the package arrives. But a package can only be insured / valued up to its declared value.

So what then? If a customer selects the cheapest, uninsured method of shipping (when given the option of more expensive, insured options), and then asks that I declare the value to be under $20 and the package goes missing, then what? Is the seller responsible for replacing all of those goods because the buyer opted to roll the dice without insurance and a requested low declared value?

On the flip side of this, if a seller chooses to protect themselves with the actual declared value and mandatory insurance and tracking (Ficcare does this) customers complain about the lack of a cheaper option.

I guess I just had a bunch of what-if thoughts about this this weekend and was curious what people think when it comes to buyer choice / request for shipping options and custom forms and how that translates into buyer/seller responsibility.

[lapushka]

Since this is mostly sorted, I have another related question to posit for people:

I'm often asked to, if we're not mincing words, lie on customs forms (undervaluing the package and declaring it as a gift) because people, understandably, do not want to pay tons on tax and duty when the package arrives. But a package can only be insured / valued up to its declared value.

So what then? If a customer selects the cheapest, uninsured method of shipping (when given the option of more expensive, insured options), and then asks that I declare the value to be under $20 and the package goes missing, then what? Is the seller responsible for replacing all of those goods because the buyer opted to roll the dice without insurance and a requested low declared value?

I don't know if you replace items if they go missing or not. I hope you do. ;) I think it remains the same then if you need to replace the item. It's just the value that's different on the form (which is a mere formality).

[Nightshade]

I don't know if you replace items if they go missing or not. I hope you do. ;) I think it remains the same then if you need to replace the item. It's just the value that's different on the form (which is a mere formality).

Etsy says I don't have to because my obligation is to ship the package by the method the buyer chooses and provide proof of that, and my shop policies say I am not responsible for lost packages and I recommend insuring them and will mandate insurance over a certain value limit.

As I mentioned earlier, I do occasionally bend the rules and offer to split the difference (I will replace the products, but the buyer has to pay for shipping), but this is something I can choose to extend, or not, depending on the circumstances. (ETA: as I have had people outright try to scam / extort for free products (https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/entry.php?b=131727).)

Because isn't that the reason for shipping insurance? For the buyer to insure the value of their items so they are compensated if they are lost? The value in this case is not a formality, it is declaring the amount that the buyer would receive if their package went amiss. They can choose, or not choose, to purchase this.

I'm curious why you think that their choice has no bearing on a seller's obligation to pay for both replacement items and re-shipping.

[AmaryllisRed]

This thread is interesting to me because I have always heard that insurance is for the seller, not the buyer. The seller ships with insurance so that they get reimbursed by the PO if the package is lost.
Following that train of thought, if I were a seller, I would not be willing to lie about a product's value since I am the one who would be jilted if it got lost and I were only reimbursed for a fraction of the value while my customer would presumably want a full refund or replacement.
I'm always amazed when I receive a package and the stated value isn't correct. Especially since exorbitant customs fees don't seem to be an issue in the US like they are in other countries.

[Nightshade]

Technically, either the buyer or the seller can file an insurance claim with the USPS. Whoever does it will need a copy of the postal receipt and a receipt that shows the value of the item, but either party can file a claim; one of the first questions on the form asks you to identify whether you are the sender or the receiver of the package.

Now that said, it's generally best if the buyer does it because sometimes the post office will demand pictures of the the mailing box and all packing as well as the item (if filing a claim for damage). If the USPS determines to honor the claim they may require the item be surrendered but they usually do not. Also, if there are questions about the delivery, the seller can't answer those.

Whoever files the claim is the one who would be reimbursed the cost of the destroyed or missing package. Since it's optional for buyers to pay for insurance or not, I prefer they file the claim so they are the ones receiving the payout.

[Sterlyn]

Since this is mostly sorted, I have another related question to posit for people:

I'm often asked to, if we're not mincing words, lie on customs forms (undervaluing the package and declaring it as a gift) because people, understandably, do not want to pay tons on tax and duty when the package arrives. But a package can only be insured / valued up to its declared value.

So what then? If a customer selects the cheapest, uninsured method of shipping (when given the option of more expensive, insured options), and then asks that I declare the value to be under $20 and the package goes missing, then what? Is the seller responsible for replacing all of those goods because the buyer opted to roll the dice without insurance and a requested low declared value?

On the flip side of this, if a seller chooses to protect themselves with the actual declared value and mandatory insurance and tracking (Ficcare does this) customers complain about the lack of a cheaper option.

I guess I just had a bunch of what-if thoughts about this this weekend and was curious what people think when it comes to buyer choice / request for shipping options and custom forms and how that translates into buyer/seller responsibility.

Edited; There are multiple views on this with many taking the stance that this is a nonissue and that the powers that be don't care. I hope so, but couldn't take that cavalier of an attitude. Maybe because I'm older and more cautious or just more of a worry wort. Below is just info and food for thought, not intended as a lecture. :)

The marking as a gift was something I never felt comfortable with and after some research refused to do. In the online age, if customs form are filled out online, that info is easily accessed. The custom info is still available on my PayPal account for packages I sent, so accessible for any govt authority looking as well. Then there is the Etsy account where it is clearly evident that it was purchased, records also easy to access and verify for falsehoods or inaccuracies.

Some say that it doesn't matter because this has to do with taxes paid in another country and therefore isn't an issue for online sellers located in the US. Well there is this law

13 U.S.C. § 305 - U.S. Code - Unannotated Title 13. Census § 305. Penalties for unlawful export information activities

(2) Furtherance of illegal activities. --Any person who knowingly reports any information on or uses the SED or the AES to further any illegal activity shall be subject to a fine not to exceed $10,000 per violation or imprisonment for not more than 5 years, or both.

Will anybody in the govt care or bother to check on any of this? I have no idea but in the end I wasn't about to risk myself or my family's wellbeing so a buyer could pay less in taxes. Even if the possible consequences had a one-in-million chance of occurrence.

[MusicalSpoons]

As someone who strongly objects to the fee we have to pay for the privilege of paying import VAT for items arriving from outside the EU (not the VAT itself, but the fee which is set, flat rate, so I might have to pay £3 in customs but £8 to the postal service - yes really, on an item a few pence over £15) I buy strictly under the limit. It's annoying, but the only other option is to buy a large order to make that £8 worth it. I have only contacted one Etsy seller about the customs form, to make sure they put down the price I paid as it was on sale and under the limit; full price would have been over. I don't see anything wrong with that because that's the price I paid and the price I'd expect compensated by the postal service if it went missing, and in terms of tax, that's the whole amount of money I paid for that item so I'm not committing any kind of fraud.

[When buying from the Swap board here, I'm very happy to buy and sell items marked on the form as gifts, because I'm not making any money from it and the other sellers probably aren't either, as most items go for less than the price originally paid for them, or less than market value - mine do, certainly. I've received items marked lower than their actual value and because it's again between two individuals, I don't mind that. For me, I've never had a swap board transaction go wrong but I've not bought anything rare or very high value (the highest value purchase I made was within the EU, and I asked for tracked postage) and there is an element of risk. I do feel that with the feedback system there is some recourse, in that even if I were left out of pocket, they would not get away with it again because people don't want to take a chance on members with poor feedback.]

For a while I've been toying with the idea of an Etsy shop, and I would not declare a lower amount on the customs form than what anyone paid. I might be tempted to mark it as a gift to make life easier for myself, not having to look up the tariff code for products - and if I were selling at cost and no more, I maybe would just do that because I'd be making no money from it anyway. However, if I sold things for a price above cost, I would make sure to look up the legislation re: tariff codes and do my best from there, marking it as commercial. I wouldn't mark anything lower than cost or as a gift even if a seller asked me to, because that's helping the buyer commit fraud. As a buyer I'm always careful to buy below the limit or expect the consequences, so I'd expect the same of any other customer!

[MusicalSpoons]

Darnit, I was going to edit my post but it's not showing up, so it'll have to be consecutive posts, sorry.

I bought from one Etsy seller who immediately sent me a message to make sure I was aware that I might have to pay customs or import charges, so if I wanted to change my mind I could cancel before she posted it out. She did have in her listing and shop policies the usual disclaimer that she wasn't responsible for any fees that might be incurred, but I thought that was very thoughtful of her - before I started buying hairtoys, I had no idea about customs or import charges, so to warn any first-time international buyers I thought was very considerate of her! I would absolutely not expect any seller to offer that option, but it did mean she was completely covered and shouldn't have anyone asking her to falsify customs forms.

[lapushka]

I'm curious why you think that their choice has no bearing on a seller's obligation to pay for both replacement items and re-shipping.

To me, I think it's just the nice thing to do, but then I am not a seller, so can't see that from your POV that easily. I'm sure you have your reasons for not replacing items should they go missing. :flower:

[TatsuOni]

Etsy says I don't have to because my obligation is to ship the package by the method the buyer chooses and provide proof of that, and my shop policies say I am not responsible for lost packages and I recommend insuring them and will mandate insurance over a certain value limit.

As I mentioned earlier, I do occasionally bend the rules and offer to split the difference (I will replace the products, but the buyer has to pay for shipping), but this is something I can choose to extend, or not, depending on the circumstances. (ETA: as I have had people outright try to scam / extort for free products (https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/entry.php?b=131727).)

Because isn't that the reason for shipping insurance? For the buyer to insure the value of their items so they are compensated if they are lost? The value in this case is not a formality, it is declaring the amount that the buyer would receive if their package went amiss. They can choose, or not choose, to purchase this.

I'm curious why you think that their choice has no bearing on a seller's obligation to pay for both replacement items and re-shipping.

I'm one of those who has to pay extra for anything I buy from outside of EU. 25% of the product value and shipping costs in taxes (always) plus a fee that's thankfully been lowered to 75 SEK (around 8 USD), if the value is under 1600 SEK. But I'd never ask seller to lie about the value or to mark it as a gift, because I thought that: 1. It might cause problems for the seller some day. 2. It's not their responsibility and I don't want to bother them.

Also, if someone asks for this and the seller is kind enough to grant their wish. Then the buyer should take the consequences for any lost package. You can't expect replacement products if you ask me and you can't expect the postal service to pay you for that loss if you've chosen a package without tracking package/haven't declared the actual value of whatever you bought.

(These are just my opinions)


When my package got lost after I payed taxes and fees I contacted the postal service, who told me to tell the seller to contact them. I was thankful that Nightshade agreed to do this! Then it was a carousel where they changed their mind and told me, to tell her (because the for some reason couldn't tell her directly),to contact her native postal service, so that they could contact them and so on. Well, after I've pretty much given up, my package did arrive and I was very happy about it :) And so grateful for Nightshade who did so much to help me! Because none of it were her fault! I'm by the way hoping that my package will arrive safely this time...

[lunasea]

In a huge hurry this morning but wanted everyone to know that my hairtoy was waiting at my door safe and sound when I got home yesterday! Thanks again to everyone who weighed in on this. BTW, left positive feedback for the seller since he filed a report with the post office and had good communication. Plus the item itself is perfect!

[lapushka]

That's awesome to hear, lunasea! :)

And truth be told, the value to declare is just a custom's formality. No way in heck are customs going to "value" a hairtoy at oft stated amounts of 80 dollars or more. ;)

[TatsuOni]

In a huge hurry this morning but wanted everyone to know that my hairtoy was waiting at my door safe and sound when I got home yesterday! Thanks again to everyone who weighed in on this. BTW, left positive feedback for the seller since he filed a report with the post office and had good communication. Plus the item itself is perfect!

That's great! :)

[AmaryllisRed]

So glad to hear it, Lunasea!

[MusicalSpoons]

Great to hear it's all sorted lunasea!


That's awesome to hear, lunasea! :)

And truth be told, the value to declare is just a custom's formality. No way in heck are customs going to "value" a hairtoy at oft stated amounts of 80 dollars or more. ;)

No, it's a legal document and if they randomly select your package to be opened, with the dispatch note or order summary inside showing the amount you paid is 4x what's declared? I don't know what the consequences would be, but I also don't want to find out. I doubt it's likely they'd prosecute for a one-time, relatively small offence, but if for instance you'd bought something costing 100s rather than 10s of dollars, then I'd imagine a fine would be much more likely. However much we might dislike the extra charges, and however small the risk of your package being randomly selected, it is still technically fraud to declare a lower value to get out of paying taxes. Some people might be fine with that, some might be okay with it in certain instances (e.g. with non-commercial transactions between individuals) but it doesn't change what it is :shrug:

[lapushka]

Great to hear it's all sorted lunasea!



No, it's a legal document and if they randomly select your package to be opened, with the dispatch note or order summary inside showing the amount you paid is 4x what's declared? I don't know what the consequences would be, but I also don't want to find out. I doubt it's likely they'd prosecute for a one-time, relatively small offence, but if for instance you'd bought something costing 100s rather than 10s of dollars, then I'd imagine a fine would be much more likely. However much we might dislike the extra charges, and however small the risk of your package being randomly selected, it is still technically fraud to declare a lower value to get out of paying taxes. Some people might be fine with that, some might be okay with it in certain instances (e.g. with non-commercial transactions between individuals) but it doesn't change what it is :shrug:

There is something called a custom's nomenclature, and no way a simple hairtoy is valued more than a couple dollars. Which is why it's not smart to have an invoice in there in the first place.

But everyone has to decide for themselves. ;)

[Groovy Granny]

In a huge hurry this morning but wanted everyone to know that my hairtoy was waiting at my door safe and sound when I got home yesterday! Thanks again to everyone who weighed in on this. BTW, left positive feedback for the seller since he filed a report with the post office and had good communication. Plus the item itself is perfect!

Awesome; very happy it all worked out for you :)

[MusicalSpoons]

There is something called a custom's nomenclature, and no way a simple hairtoy is valued more than a couple dollars. Which is why it's not smart to have an invoice in there in the first place.

But everyone has to decide for themselves. ;)

What do you mean? The nomenclature is, as far as I understand, a list of codes so they know to charge VAT at the correct rate - some items are lower, some are higher, some are 0%, though most are the standard rate. In all of my investigating I've never seen anything relating the codes to the intrinsic value of an item.

[lapushka]

What do you mean? The nomenclature is, as far as I understand, a list of codes so they know to charge VAT at the correct rate - some items are lower, some are higher, some are 0%, though most are the standard rate. In all of my investigating I've never seen anything relating the codes to the intrinsic value of an item.

The nomenclature is books and books worth of various codes. And hairtoys aren't rated all that high according to my mom (who was a maritime clerk + customs declarer until retirement), so 1/ putting the invoice in there is risky. 2/ a lower rate at about 10-20 dollars isn't that "wrong".

But it's up to each individual personally what you feel comfortable with.

That's why I like to buy from Quattro, even though he increased his shipping rates by a lot!

ETA/ My mom about doubles over backward when I tell her VAT is such and such because the seller indicated that value on the parcel. She gets angry. LOL!

[Ylva]

It's great to here that the package is on it's way again :)

Last year I had to wait almost three months to receive a package from NightBlooming. It was lost in Sweden and honestly, our postal service is known for being bad. It's pretty much a running joke in all off Sweden and often in the newspaper how badly they've screwed things up. Anyway, it did show up and I was very happy to receive it :)

Same here. There was a popular meme a few years back that said: "Save money and lose your own Yule cards by the 16th of December." or something like that. :D

This is a bit unrelated, but also relates to the postal service. Back when I received China packages quite frequently, I guess the mail carrier got sick of it and instead of putting them in the mailbox, he/she decided to throw them in the yard towards the front door instead.

[MusicalSpoons]

The nomenclature is books and books worth of various codes. And hairtoys aren't rated all that high according to my mom (who was a maritime clerk + customs declarer until retirement), so 1/ putting the invoice in there is risky. 2/ a lower rate at about 10-20 dollars isn't that "wrong".

But it's up to each individual personally what you feel comfortable with.

That's why I like to buy from Quattro, even though he increased his shipping rates by a lot!

ETA/ My mom about doubles over backward when I tell her VAT is such and such because the seller indicated that value on the parcel. She gets angry. LOL!

Ah, I see. I wonder if it's perhaps changed since she retired then :hmm: the method for calculating customs value definitely says that it's based on transaction value (unless there was no transaction and it's something unique with nothing else similar to go on - in which case pricing up the raw materials is generally the way to go). I know thresholds differ between EU countries but the nomenclature and methods are unified, as far as I can see. Unless there's some teeny-tiny clause I've missed ... actually that would be quite cool and very useful for a lot of us! :lol: ;)

(As for shipping rates increased, I think every single US seller has had to do the same thanks to USPS hoiking up the charges. The annoying thing to me is, to buy under the import/customs threshold means the shipping is almost the same price as the product!!)

Ylva that's terrible - were you able to complain about the packages being thrown? I've also bought lots of parcels over the course of a couple of months (from China and elsewhere) and never has our postman been anything but professional with them!

[lapushka]

Ah, I see. I wonder if it's perhaps changed since she retired then :hmm: the method for calculating customs value definitely says that it's based on transaction value (unless there was no transaction and it's something unique with nothing else similar to go on - in which case pricing up the raw materials is generally the way to go). I know thresholds differ between EU countries but the nomenclature and methods are unified, as far as I can see. Unless there's some teeny-tiny clause I've missed ... actually that would be quite cool and very useful for a lot of us! :lol: ;)

(As for shipping rates increased, I think every single US seller has had to do the same thanks to USPS hoiking up the charges. The annoying thing to me is, to buy under the import/customs threshold means the shipping is almost the same price as the product!!)

Ylva that's terrible - were you able to complain about the packages being thrown? I've also bought lots of parcels over the course of a couple of months (from China and elsewhere) and never has our postman been anything but professional with them!

It didn't change that much since retirement. I think the price hair accessories have in the customs nomenclature is not the, in comparison, "extortionate" prices they ask online. LOL!

But "hairtoys" is a whole other bag of tricks! ;)