Knot dilemna - what to do?

[blackgothicdoll]

As I approach the fateful length that I can never fully reach (APL) I now remember why I never make it this far: knots. It seems now they've doubled or tripled, too many to effectively s&d. To make things worse, shed hairs get tied on the single strand knots to form compound knots that can only be cut out. In the past, when I got this amount of knots I had no choice but to cut.

Now, when I keep my hair straight knots aren't a problem, but it has to be straight 85 percent of the time. Which is a lot of heat, even if I'm stretching washes. I'm not sure how long I can grow my hair with using heat, but I'm not sure I can grow it at all when i keep being plagued by these knots.

So I suppose my options are to cut back to shoulder and maintain straight hair and just see how long it can grow, or cut back to shoulder and try to find a new way to avoid knots (because clearly stretching with braids or buns doesn't work). Unless there is some secret I have yet to find to stop ssks and their cousins? Please tell me there is. I've run out of ideas. I guess keeping hair in braids and twists is an option but honestly I look far too boyish with those styles and would probably just choose to wear my hair straight over that.

:(

[Stardreamer]

Ouch. So if ssks are what I think they are, then I get them too. The knots part really sucks. But if you cut back to shoulders, you're losing progress... I remember the times I've trimmed my hair. Even trimming I regret, although it got rid of dry ends which did knot a bit, however my hair is a lot different from yours. I just regret losing length! The straightening part could cause damage if you do it too often.

How long has it been since you've had a trim? And, maybe a trim will be better than a cut, it might still help to get rid of knots. (I used to look boyish by the way, lol)

[LadyCelestina]

I think you sort of answered your own question... Updo's usually solve a lot of tangling issues.

My only advice is learn updo's that flatter you (doesn't have to be LHC buns, I use claw clips to make messy curly buns with peacock twist base, because it looks good on me) IMO if you want to have long hair, you absolutely need to have at least one updo you enjoy wearing on a regular basis. Past a certain length, the hair just tangles when it's loose.

I hope someone with a similar texture to you can chime in!

[catoala]

I'm currently BSL and I have the similar issue. It's not too bad, but hey. Try to use silicone leave ins and wash with siliconated(?) conditioner. If you want to... But! You can try to leave in some oils on damp hair. As, castor oil. It's very thick, but it works amazingly. Try to keep your hair up more in a braid, a bun (I personally dislike buns.. too much) and you should be fine. Use a wide tooth comb to detangle, even though, I don't do that either.. I just think tangly hair is tangly hair and there is not much to do about it sadly.

[meteor]

Yeah, they are the bane of my existence... :oops: Well, braided simple updos, hair sectioned and put in protective styles just the right way considering my hair's tendencies is the way to go. What I mean by that is that I think we all have some sections that are more tangly than others (for example, if strands are finer there or there is more mechanical damage accumulated there) and I find that I like to have them sectioned into more parts and/or separated from the rest of my hair and immobilized.

So, for example, I can use accent braids to control that hair (for me, that's face framing hair). Many braids and buns actually cause me more tangles depending on the style, so I keep it very simple at current length (Calf). It's really important to watch your hair's reaction (reduction or increase in tangling) to whatever new style or product you experiment with, no matter what other people's hair may do.

Also, detangling with appropriate detangling tools (the ones that detangle *your* hair without too much resistance and without breakage) that happens frequently enough to catch tangles and knots early, but not so often that it would drive me crazy really helps.

Of course, keeping hair covered in windy/dusty environments, sleeping with silky smooth scarves/bonnets/pillowcases all help a bit.

As for products, I do like to use heavy conditioners with lots of silicones and oils sometimes, but not so much that they'd attract more lint (another source of knots, argh!).

As for washing, my hair is significantly easier to detangle if I wash it in braided sections. Also, I like scalp-only washes, when my length doesn't need to be washed yet, because my hair is *much* easier to detangle than after full washes. YMMV of course.

[Tinyponies]

Hope you find a happy solution to this blackgothicdoll, basically most things I know about your hair type I have learned from reading your posts so don’t have much helpful to add. Could it be that your virgin hair will have smoother scales and be less prone to this as it grows in?

Best wishes :grouphug:

[Aeonian]

Do you get knots in a certain area like your nape or is it everywhere? I don't have a lot of knots, but once in a while I get knots in my nape because my hair is so curly. I put a lot of conditioner, with or without silicones, and try to comb it out with a fine-ish comb. This is against my nature because I never comb my hair, but this trick helps me. Your hair is different, don't know if you can comb it with a finetooth comb. Good luck, it's really frustrating cutting hair just because of bloody knots.

[lapushka]

I was classic, and then suddenly there I was FTL and I had KNOTS, multi-strand knots. Like 10 hairs or so bunched up together, and try getting that out when it's tightly coiled together into a bunch of *disaster*. LOL!

I found out it was one of the methods I used in detangling, but I went along the list. Was I moisturizing enough? Did I perhaps need more moisture? This Sunday I am going to be experimenting with WCCC, triple conditioning after my wash. Perhaps... who knows.

It has greatly diminished for me with detangling differently, but I still have to be *really* careful. It's as if looking at my hair weird gets me KNOTS!

I would try moisturizing more; whatever you can throw at your hair: DO IT!

What is your wash / styling routine now?

[blackgothicdoll]

Stardreamer: Let's see: my last trim was back in September, and that was at a salon. I did a dusting by myself 3 months ago.

Lady CelestinaMy hair is literally always up, unless I am taking a quick picture, restyling it, or it's time to wash. Dutch braids and sock buns are my go tos.

cataola: I don't know what it is about products with silicones, but they seem to immediately dry my hair out. I have the same problem with emulsifying wax or beeswax. Conditioners and leave in with cones have plenty of slip, but once my hair dries it is immediately very dry and twice as hard to work with. With conditioners, they are wonderful while I'm detangling in the shower, but the moment I rinse my hair out it is less manageable than it was before I started. I know my hair generally doesn't like heavy products, it has the same reaction with petrolatum and pure castor oil. Maybe there are some lighter cones that won't have this problem? Even bisamino-propyl dimethicone has been a culprit.

meteor: I am positive that 90% of my knots are caused by wash day - that's really the only time my hair has a chance to do whatever it wants. Washing in braids is something I've been meaning to try. When you say you wash in braids, do you keep your braided through the entire wash routine, or do you undo one braid at a time to wash? How do you get out shed hair? For detangling, so far I've tried tangle teezer and denman, and while I like the tangle teezer because I feel like it gets out shed hair, I'm also very sure I might just be ripping through tangles. The denman is also possibly guilty. I've tried finger detangling a few times and that was an absolutely disaster/nightmare, I either got more knots or the brushes I was using were just ripping through them. It's very hard to tell. :/

Tinyponies: I think some of the knotting is related to damage, but some is just my hair doing what it wants unfortunately. Thank you :)

Aeonian: My nape, in front of my ears, and one large section on the right of my head are serial knotters. I'm really not sure about using a fine tooth comb on my hair, at least not while it is wet. My conditioner woes have been increasing lately - I may need to clarify though I clarified on Friday - basically any time a cone touches my hair I end up needing to clarify again, very thoroughly because none of my conditioner will work anymore. Coney conditioners have the most slip, but then I will need to clarify because they will cause my hair to dry out (they seem to lock out moisture). I still haven't figured this out. But last coneless conditioner I tried to detangle with last night (Tresseme Coconut Milk and Aloe Vera) was just pathetic. I can't find anything that's cone free and slippery enough.

Lapushka: I *think* I'm moisturizing enough, but as I mentioned when I washed yesterday my hair was just dry. I used CWCC, and it was still so dry. So I'm going to try to clarify again. It seems to me that I need to clarify every single time I wash. Is that strange? I'm still experimenting with products, I think I'm still using things my hair doesn't like, which of course leads to me needing to clarify... I know my hair liked some things at some point, but recently it's just been difficult. It's like it's going through 'hair puberty' and nothing is working. :(

So I have been adjusting in mid air, but most consistently I CWCC, usually condition first to help get extra oil out my hair (I usually prepoo with oil, sometimes I don't but my hair usually has accumulated a good amount of oil prior to wash anyways). Then I use either a sulfate or a sulfate-free shampoo, usually just alternating. I'll use V05, Shea Moisture or Mielle shampoos, oddly the V05 seems to work the best in most cases. Then the second DC is usually a deep conditioner that I'll use a heat cap with, or if I don't have time I'll just grab whatever. My conditioners are all cone free, as I mentioned before I seem to get immediate coating on my hair with cones that when rinsed off makes the hair feel very dry and difficult to do anything with. Once I've washed and conditioned, I do LCO, usually a cone free leave in followed by a bit of shea butter, then seal with an oil, and I go one section at a time and braid my hair as I go so that when I'm finished, my hair is in maybe 10-12 braids. I let these dry overnight and then I'll undo them, the resulting waves get put in buns or I'll restyle into dutch braids. They're always tucked away though, and while I get some tangles here and there from hair that tangled in the braids, it's not quite as many tangles as I get from beginning to end of the wash process.

Thank you everyone. :o

[lapushka]

Lapushka: I *think* I'm moisturizing enough, but as I mentioned when I washed yesterday my hair was just dry. I used CWCC, and it was still so dry. So I'm going to try to clarify again. It seems to me that I need to clarify every single time I wash. Is that strange? I'm still experimenting with products, I think I'm still using things my hair doesn't like, which of course leads to me needing to clarify... I know my hair liked some things at some point, but recently it's just been difficult. It's like it's going through 'hair puberty' and nothing is working. :(

No that's not strange, I clarify every single wash as well. I use too much styling product not to merit a good washing. And it is like re-setting every week. It's not too bad!

Maybe try throwing a deep conditioner in there when doing the double C'ing.

If the V05 works best, don't mess with a good thing, no matter what the natural community is trying to (s)(t)ell you. ;)

I would try a few silicone conditioners in there, or masks. Maybe that will help. I know it is a big big help for me, for sure. I can tell the difference as I'm working my way through my stash. And if you clarify each wash anyway, it doesn't matter!

Maybe a few things to adjust & re-think. :flower:

[I am #4.]

You do not stop them, as that is just the nature of your hair. The issue is always when there are too many, which you should be able to discern with how your hair feels during specific activities. Just as straight hair tends to get split ends, we get knots now and then. In other words, my advise to you is to simply stop focusing on trying to eliminate something that you cannot and focus on the extent to which the knots affect the manageability of your hair. When my knots get bad, it is hard for me to detangle, I can actually feel them in a sizeable section of hair, and I have to cut out a sizeable portion of knotted ends attached to said knots when styling. These are my signs that I need to trim them out, and I barely do this since I stopped twisting my hair wet and not stretching the ends... If I have a few and I spot them, and I may cut them off. However, I do not actively search for them because I do not like manipulating the ends.

If single strand knots are really an issue for you because you have that many, then please remove them. It makes detangling and styling easier. But do you need to cut off that much hair? How far up do you thing most of the knots are?

Nonetheless, if you want to keep the hair for now, you can try to find a different style that reduces the knotting or find what is causing them. If straightening works, then go ahead as long as there is no heat damage. And be mindful that you may end up with split ends as well. My mom used this route on me before I went fully natural and I had waist length hair, yet it was heat damaged... I would recommend doing some research and seeing what styles you can work with, as it will make diversifying when the hair is longer easier as well. If you think that more knots appear with a style, then stop that style and try something new. There are styles that work for me that may cause more knotting for you, so it is really trial and error. But if you already want to trim it, you should "mess around" before cutting to avoid any activities that reinforce knotting after you have already removed such a substantial amount of growth.

[Lady Stardust]

Have you tried Kinky Curly Knot Today? I don’t have any experience of it myself but I think it’s cone free and gives lots of slip.

The other product that comes to mind is Nightblooming Selkir detangler. Again, I haven’t used it but I’ve read that it gives lots of slip.

Coincidentally, I have exactly the same problem areas - in front of ears, one section near the front on the right, and the nape. I get splits though, rather than knots. I used to judge the rest of my hair by those sections, but I decided that if I ever want growth I have to just baby those sections the best I can, and then ignore them. I put way too much Freya salve in my nape hair the other day by mistake and I got amazing spiral curls, so maybe it wasn’t too much after all :)

[blackgothicdoll]

You do not stop them, as that is just the nature of your hair. The issue is always when there are too many, which you should be able to discern with how your hair feels during specific activities. Just as straight hair tends to get split ends, we get knots now and then. In other words, my advise to you is to simply stop focusing on trying to eliminate something that you cannot and focus on the extent to which the knots affect the manageability of your hair. When my knots get bad, it is hard for me to detangle, I can actually feel them in a sizeable section of hair, and I have to cut out a sizeable portion of knotted ends attached to said knots when styling. These are my signs that I need to trim them out, and I barely do this since I stopped twisting my hair wet and not stretching the ends... If I have a few and I spot them, and I may cut them off. However, I do not actively search for them because I do not like manipulating the ends.

If single strand knots are really an issue for you because you have that many, then please remove them. It makes detangling and styling easier. But do you need to cut off that much hair? How far up do you thing most of the knots are?

Nonetheless, if you want to keep the hair for now, you can try to find a different style that reduces the knotting or find what is causing them. If straightening works, then go ahead as long as there is no heat damage. And be mindful that you may end up with split ends as well. My mom used this route on me before I went fully natural and I had waist length hair, yet it was heat damaged... I would recommend doing some research and seeing what styles you can work with, as it will make diversifying when the hair is longer easier as well. If you think that more knots appear with a style, then stop that style and try something new. There are styles that work for me that may cause more knotting for you, so it is really trial and error. But if you already want to trim it, you should "mess around" before cutting to avoid any activities that reinforce knotting after you have already removed such a substantial amount of growth.

When I say knots I mean A LOT. My section to the right gets knots in the middle of the strands, I have some knots that form a few inches from the roots. These sections do nothing but tangle, they are incredibly difficult to deal with, rough to the the touch, just... I don't really know what to do about those areas. They're too difficult to ignore because they are difficult to work with. I could get away with trimming less than what I currently want to trim, but due to my layers I'll miss a lot. It could be easier to eliminate the layers while I'm at it and just start fresh... but you're definitely right, my fear is cutting a ton and then growing it back out and dealing with the same exact thing... because this isn't my first time going through that cycle.

I already snipping the ends off my nape hairs, they basically each ended in a knot. :( Nape is short anyways so I didn't really care about that, but just seeing clumps of kntos... ugh.

I mentioned in my second post, it's not styles, it's literally just my hair when it's wet. Nothing seems slippery enough to stop the knotting, or once I'm styling it, in the time in between I get a leave in conditioner in and braid it, it knots up something terrible (did that even make sense?) Basically in any durations of time that it is in its natural state, that time is its opportune moment to start tangling and forming knots. Once I've detangled and styled it's smooth sailing.

[blackgothicdoll]

Have you tried Kinky Curly Knot Today? I don’t have any experience of it myself but I think it’s cone free and gives lots of slip.

The other product that comes to mind is Nightblooming Selkir detangler. Again, I haven’t used it but I’ve read that it gives lots of slip.

Coincidentally, I have exactly the same problem areas - in front of ears, one section near the front on the right, and the nape. I get splits though, rather than knots. I used to judge the rest of my hair by those sections, but I decided that if I ever want growth I have to just baby those sections the best I can, and then ignore them. I put way too much Freya salve in my nape hair the other day by mistake and I got amazing spiral curls, so maybe it wasn’t too much after all :)

I love KCKT, it's great to detangle as a leave in, if I could find a conditioner just like it maybe I'd be in less trouble, I'm not sure. I loved Selkie but I used half a bottle per wash day... wasn't very cost effective unfortunately!

That's interesting that we have the same trouble spots. Sadly I can't figure out what to do about my ear and nape hairs, those are so short. I suspect some sort of damage in the right section, but I don't see more splits than anywhere else, no white dots, it just seems to tangle and knot more. It makes me tempted to trim it but I'm not sure what I'm trying to trim.

[lapushka]

What tools do you detangle with? Maybe there's something there that we are missing. SSKs occur, yes, but to that extent, it's a little worrisome.

[blackgothicdoll]

What tools do you detangle with? Maybe there's something there that we are missing. SSKs occur, yes, but to that extent, it's a little worrisome.

I've tried finger detangling which works on some parts of my hair, but not the 'trouble section'. Then I use a TT or a denman, both of those seem to rip through my hair, it's hard to tell though because of the noise the bristles make.

[Aeonian]

Girl, I really feel for you, there are some lovely suggestions to untangle those messy knots, hope something works for you.

[ynne]

(I did not read everything in the thread, sorry if I repeat something that was already said!)

Background: When we were dealing with severely matted fur on curly-haired dog (that we adopted), the salon lady told us that since the hair got severely matted and probably not just once, it is just too damaged. You could see the difference; it was more brittle, lost most of its texture. So when washed and combed, it would not form curly clumps anymore, it would only curl into mats. We had to go short and start over.

Which makes me wonder, is your hair perhaps too damaged from the previous tangling? As in, if it formed knots once, it is much more likely to form knots again in the same part? I don't know if this is really how it works. But if it does, maybe the hair in problem areas needs some intense treatment to restore its "strength"?
(Oh, and I hope you don't mind I used a dog as an example; it's just the closest experience I had!)

Also, I don't know which ones you tried, but when I had long hair, I relied on detangling sprays and they helped a lot, maybe there is some that could work for you?

Either way, good luck, I hope you find a solution!

[lapushka]

I've tried finger detangling which works on some parts of my hair, but not the 'trouble section'. Then I use a TT or a denman, both of those seem to rip through my hair, it's hard to tell though because of the noise the bristles make.

Have you ever tried a Wet brush or a Felicia Leatherwood brush? I think that should be way better than a Denman. A Denman tugs on my scalp so bad. I'm tenderheaded, but not *that* tenderheaded. A TT doesn't pull, but a Wet brush even less. It nicely "skips" over big knots so you can manually get them out without ripping through your hair.

[meteor]

meteor: I am positive that 90% of my knots are caused by wash day - that's really the only time my hair has a chance to do whatever it wants. Washing in braids is something I've been meaning to try. When you say you wash in braids, do you keep your braided through the entire wash routine, or do you undo one braid at a time to wash? How do you get out shed hair? For detangling, so far I've tried tangle teezer and denman, and while I like the tangle teezer because I feel like it gets out shed hair, I'm also very sure I might just be ripping through tangles. The denman is also possibly guilty. I've tried finger detangling a few times and that was an absolutely disaster/nightmare, I either got more knots or the brushes I was using were just ripping through them. It's very hard to tell. :/

Since you mentioned that most of the tangling happens during the washing cycle, then yes, it might be worth experimenting with washing in sections or braids. I like to detangle thoroughly before a wash to take out shed hairs, then I start braiding loosely and not too close to scalp so that I can wash hair more easily. I dilute both shampoo and conditioner to be able to get it through the thickness. I find it easier to get to all my scalp this way, because the hair is not blocking everything once it's in braids. I only undo braids after I've washed conditioned, rinsed very thoroughly and pat dried for a while. It's important to keep hair from moving too much as it's drying, unless I'm separating strands, helping them dry a bit.

The problem that sectioned washing solves for me is simply the tangling that occurs when wet hair is moved around, folding and looping on itself. With my length, I really can't afford to flip hair back and forth to get to all my scalp, but when the hair is braided, I can do that, since the hair is immobilized inside braids. I still feel that the washing isn't as 100% thorough as with loose length, but the detangling effort it saves me is worth it and it allows me to wash hair more frequently, because I'm not dying detangling those massive scary tangles after a wash.

Also consider your products. You mentioned that you've been trying a bunch of new ones, and that they weren't great, and that could be a contributing factor.

It could even be seasonal changes (going from winter to spring in this case) that could drive this increase in knots and tangles. When humidity changes, heating, wind and other factors come into play, changes in moisture levels, slip and tangling can definitely occur. :flower:

As for the question on detangling tools, personally, I like Tangle Teezer Thick & Curly edition (with longer and firmer bristles) and a wide tooth wooden comb, but everyone needs to find what feels best for their hair - minimal breakage, minimal resistance. Check for splits and breakage - both should go down dramatically with good quality tools, as well as taking less time to get knots and shed hairs out.


Aeonian: My nape, in front of my ears, and one large section on the right of my head are serial knotters.

They're always tucked away though, and while I get some tangles here and there from hair that tangled in the braids, it's not quite as many tangles as I get from beginning to end of the wash process.


Coincidentally, I have exactly the same problem areas - in front of ears, one section near the front on the right, and the nape. I get splits though, rather than knots. I used to judge the rest of my hair by those sections, but I decided that if I ever want growth I have to just baby those sections the best I can, and then ignore them.


That's interesting that we have the same trouble spots.

Those are my problem areas, too. It's interesting also, that as hair gets longer, some area between neck and armpit gets tangled. We discussed this at the "knee length and beyond" thread. I honestly have no idea why that happens. It's possible that hair gets pulled into a bun at that length and ends up as the base of the bun, around which wrapping is done.
As for one side being more tangle prone than the other, could it be the side you sleep on more? :hmm: Face-framing hair is finer on most people, so I can see it having more of the spiderweb-like tangling potential.


I would recommend doing some research and seeing what styles you can work with, as it will make diversifying when the hair is longer easier as well. If you think that more knots appear with a style, then stop that style and try something new. There are styles that work for me that may cause more knotting for you, so it is really trial and error. But if you already want to trim it, you should "mess around" before cutting to avoid any activities that reinforce knotting after you have already removed such a substantial amount of growth.

I think this is really excellent advice. :agree:

[milosmomma]

I was going to recommend kckt but someone beat me to it :) it really only helps me with wet/damp detangling but it is wonderful for that purpose. I am going to mention(for the 1,000th time) Eden bodyworks almond and marshmallow deep conditioner. It is the only non coney conditioner I have found to give me such amazing slip while wet and also after drying. I use it with roo and have eliminated all my other leave ins because it's just overkill with this product. It moisturizes and gives slip and that all I need. Maybe it's worth a shot. It's not an expensive product either. There are other products in that line that may help you too but I have only tried the deep conditioner.

[blackgothicdoll]

(I did not read everything in the thread, sorry if I repeat something that was already said!)

Background: When we were dealing with severely matted fur on curly-haired dog (that we adopted), the salon lady told us that since the hair got severely matted and probably not just once, it is just too damaged. You could see the difference; it was more brittle, lost most of its texture. So when washed and combed, it would not form curly clumps anymore, it would only curl into mats. We had to go short and start over.

Which makes me wonder, is your hair perhaps too damaged from the previous tangling? As in, if it formed knots once, it is much more likely to form knots again in the same part? I don't know if this is really how it works. But if it does, maybe the hair in problem areas needs some intense treatment to restore its "strength"?
(Oh, and I hope you don't mind I used a dog as an example; it's just the closest experience I had!)

Also, I don't know which ones you tried, but when I had long hair, I relied on detangling sprays and they helped a lot, maybe there is some that could work for you?

Either way, good luck, I hope you find a solution!

Lol. Well, that does kind of describe that one section of my hair to the right, it's almost like it wants to be tangled, the hairs don't curl normally towards the very end, they sort of form scribbles if that makes sense. Unfortunately, it's not as easy to identify as my heat damage (the hair is bone straight). I can touch it and feel a difference, but some days it seems like I could trim 1/8 inch and it would be gone, others it feels like a lot more. But when just looking at it, I can't see what I'm looking for. If that even made sense. I'm not sure if it's repeated tangling that did that, I'm sure it's some kind of damage, but it's been like that since April of last year (the hair stylist who cut my hair commented specifically on that same section) so no treatment has fixed that yet.

Thank you :)


Have you ever tried a Wet brush or a Felicia Leatherwood brush? I think that should be way better than a Denman. A Denman tugs on my scalp so bad. I'm tenderheaded, but not *that* tenderheaded. A TT doesn't pull, but a Wet brush even less. It nicely "skips" over big knots so you can manually get them out without ripping through your hair.

I took every other row out of my denman because of the tugging. I've seen the Felicia Leatherwood but it's $20 including shipping and I really don't feel like buying a brush that I only 'might' like - I have a pretty imposing pile of brushes and combs already. I think I'm going to grab one of the dupes off Amazon since I get free 2-day delivery....


Since you mentioned that most of the tangling happens during the washing cycle, then yes, it might be worth experimenting with washing in sections or braids. I like to detangle thoroughly before a wash to take out shed hairs, then I start braiding loosely and not too close to scalp so that I can wash hair more easily. I dilute both shampoo and conditioner to be able to get it through the thickness. I find it easier to get to all my scalp this way, because the hair is not blocking everything once it's in braids. I only undo braids after I've washed conditioned, rinsed very thoroughly and pat dried for a while. It's important to keep hair from moving too much as it's drying, unless I'm separating strands, helping them dry a bit.

The problem that sectioned washing solves for me is simply the tangling that occurs when wet hair is moved around, folding and looping on itself. With my length, I really can't afford to flip hair back and forth to get to all my scalp, but when the hair is braided, I can do that, since the hair is immobilized inside braids. I still feel that the washing isn't as 100% thorough as with loose length, but the detangling effort it saves me is worth it and it allows me to wash hair more frequently, because I'm not dying detangling those massive scary tangles after a wash.

Also consider your products. You mentioned that you've been trying a bunch of new ones, and that they weren't great, and that could be a contributing factor.

It could even be seasonal changes (going from winter to spring in this case) that could drive this increase in knots and tangles. When humidity changes, heating, wind and other factors come into play, changes in moisture levels, slip and tangling can definitely occur. :flower:

As for the question on detangling tools, personally, I like Tangle Teezer Thick & Curly edition (with longer and firmer bristles) and a wide tooth wooden comb, but everyone needs to find what feels best for their hair - minimal breakage, minimal resistance. Check for splits and breakage - both should go down dramatically with good quality tools, as well as taking less time to get knots and shed hairs out.


Those are my problem areas, too. It's interesting also, that as hair gets longer, some area between neck and armpit gets tangled. We discussed this at the "knee length and beyond" thread. I honestly have no idea why that happens. It's possible that hair gets pulled into a bun at that length and ends up as the base of the bun, around which wrapping is done.
As for one side being more tangle prone than the other, could it be the side you sleep on more? :hmm: Face-framing hair is finer on most people, so I can see it having more of the spiderweb-like tangling potential.



I think this is really excellent advice. :agree:

Alright, I will definitely try out washing in braids. I do have the thick and curly TT, again it's just so hard to tell whether or now I'm pulling out hair, with that brush I get clumps of hair that come up, they'll just be hanging out of the brush and it seems like a lot. I can't tell if it is shed hair that it's getting or if it's just yanking out my hair. I have been noticing more splits than usual, but those are mostly toward the front of my hair where I have a lot of heat damage. I think the time has just come for those hairs to start splitting. I also notice tiny splits in other places, but I am far more hypersensitive to splits than I used to be now that I'm growing my hair out. And my ends have been dyed at least 3 times :lol:

I've been trying new products since my hair isn't liking the products it used to like - even after clarifying. Seasonal change is a good point... I'm going to need to remember what I was using around this time last year.

That is incredible interesting. Are you right-handed? I wonder if it's the right side because I'm rougher with my dominant hand. I sleep on my back, right left and face :lol: I spend more time turning than I do sleeping.


I was going to recommend kckt but someone beat me to it :) it really only helps me with wet/damp detangling but it is wonderful for that purpose. I am going to mention(for the 1,000th time) Eden bodyworks almond and marshmallow deep conditioner. It is the only non coney conditioner I have found to give me such amazing slip while wet and also after drying. I use it with roo and have eliminated all my other leave ins because it's just overkill with this product. It moisturizes and gives slip and that all I need. Maybe it's worth a shot. It's not an expensive product either. There are other products in that line that may help you too but I have only tried the deep conditioner.

That sounds like just what the doctor ordered!!! I'm gonna have to do some running around tomorrow and see if I can find it, I saw I can get it shipped the my nearest Target (since it's not in stock) so if it's not at Wal-mart I'll do that. Thank you!

And thanks everybody :)

[milosmomma]

Anytime! I hope you like it as much as I do and have luck finding a solution. You mentioned your face framers splitting and I just recently had the same thing so I basically trimmed them. I was planning on just s&d but it was most of the hairs in front of my ears so I'm just going to keep them shorter because they soften updos anyways :) I think those hairs and the other places you mentioned just get more mechanical damage no matter how hard we try to lessen it. The are on the outside and exposed to more handling and friction and at least mine need trimmed or s&d more. Wishing you good hair vibes!

[enting]

It sounds like you've got a few ideas to try :). milosmomma's suggestion sounds like a good one, some people have had a lot of detangling/adding slip success with marshmallow.

I know some people undo their knots, sometimes with the aid of a pin. I have no idea if that would appeal to you for the knots you already have.

Something that struck me is how you said that your hair feels dry after using conditioner. I usually use vinegar rinses in place of conditioner, but when I occasionally use conditioner again I notice that my hair usually feels drier and more tangly after rinsing than it does with the vinegar. It may not be the thing for you, but the conditioner-dryness sounded similar to my hair's behavior so it may be something to try.

[lapushka]

Maybe this method will help you out?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dbUrtJtFmM

[Meggypoo]

I get SSKs when i do any sort of fluffling or the curly girl method. I get them a lot less now that i never ever pat my hair or push it towards my scalp - everything i do to my hair is always in the *down/away* direction. i don't know if that info is helpful for you - but best of luck solving your SSKs :flower:

[Begemot]

I hope you can power through this difficult length and find a solution for the knots during your long hair journey. Maybe this is wishful thinking but could it be possible that knotting could start to calm down once you grow longer... anyone have this kind of experience? :hmm: Logically thinking it could be the exact opposite but who knows. Good luck blackgothicdoll!

[I am #4.]

When I say knots I mean A LOT. My section to the right gets knots in the middle of the strands, I have some knots that form a few inches from the roots. These sections do nothing but tangle, they are incredibly difficult to deal with, rough to the the touch, just... I don't really know what to do about those areas. They're too difficult to ignore because they are difficult to work with. I could get away with trimming less than what I currently want to trim, but due to my layers I'll miss a lot. It could be easier to eliminate the layers while I'm at it and just start fresh... but you're definitely right, my fear is cutting a ton and then growing it back out and dealing with the same exact thing... because this isn't my first time going through that cycle.

I already snipping the ends off my nape hairs, they basically each ended in a knot. :( Nape is short anyways so I didn't really care about that, but just seeing clumps of kntos... ugh.

I mentioned in my second post, it's not styles, it's literally just my hair when it's wet. Nothing seems slippery enough to stop the knotting, or once I'm styling it, in the time in between I get a leave in conditioner in and braid it, it knots up something terrible (did that even make sense?) Basically in any durations of time that it is in its natural state, that time is its opportune moment to start tangling and forming knots. Once I've detangled and styled it's smooth sailing.

Can you detangle with just conditioner after waiting for it to be damp or dry if it being in a wet state is an issue? You do not have to worry about massive amounts of shrinkage that may contribute to knotting. And if you do go this route, then you can stretch the hair in twists with some conditioner on to stretch it, wait for it to dry, and add a bit more conditioner to detangle.

More specifically, I started to add my leave-in when wet and twist my hair up. Then, I put on an extra conditioner that I can use to detangle (also a cream for styling may work if you pick a good one out that can work as a detangler) and I do my style of choice. Sure, I do get more build-up then I used to by adding a leave-in and a rinse out conditioner, but I prefer that over having to cut or trim my hair. And I can leave a style in more.

[Hairkay]

I mostly get single strand knots. I realised that I may reduce the amount of them forming but due to the nature of my hair this will happen. My hair forms tight spirals or coils the ends are looping to form a knot, all it takes is for the hair to slip the wrong way then get pulled or combed or moved for that knot to slip in place. No amount of conditioner or oil can control the direction of how the hair ends will move. I just accept that I will have to do some s & d to keep the ssks at bay. I have started noticing that since my hair got passed mbl I am finding double knots on the end of single strands. The last cm or inch of hair has a knot and then a few mm or another cm up there is another knot. Sometimes there are two strands of hair that have tied into a knot the last cm, I call those double strand knots. It is funny when a shed hair does that because suddenly I look like I have a strand of hair almost to my knee that will hurt when tugged since the end is tied to the end of a hair still attached to my scalp. That gets cut too.

I don't have much multi-strand knots to deal with since I got pro-active with hair management and started washing my hair in plaits or twists. That also cut down detangling time drastically. The hair is sectioned and better organised. There is the problem nape hair line that I will just cut off because it's awkward to try and detangle knots forming there. Usually those knots are the end of hair strands that happen when the hair is pulled making slip knots. That hair is prone to rubbing on collars, hoods and the edges of hats. Usually I can keep most of my hair detangled handling it wet. Any potential multistrand knot slides away with finger detangling and or careful combing.

[blackgothicdoll]

It sounds like you've got a few ideas to try :). milosmomma's suggestion sounds like a good one, some people have had a lot of detangling/adding slip success with marshmallow.

I know some people undo their knots, sometimes with the aid of a pin. I have no idea if that would appeal to you for the knots you already have.

Something that struck me is how you said that your hair feels dry after using conditioner. I usually use vinegar rinses in place of conditioner, but when I occasionally use conditioner again I notice that my hair usually feels drier and more tangly after rinsing than it does with the vinegar. It may not be the thing for you, but the conditioner-dryness sounded similar to my hair's behavior so it may be something to try.

Yeah I'd sooner rather s&d lol I can't imagine going at those suckers with a pin... I could see how some could be relieved because they don't always tie all the way, but I would save that energy for a strand of hair I've grow very attached to. :p Is it ACV you use, or just plain vinegar?


Maybe this method will help you out?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dbUrtJtFmM

I'm not really sure. I do experience the same webbing that she describes, though I don't ever let my hair dry in a shrunken state - seriously, detangling my hair the way she is would give me an anxiety attack, she seems like a very calm and patient person! :o But going in sections is definitely a good idea, which does take me back around to washing in sections.


I get SSKs when i do any sort of fluffling or the curly girl method. I get them a lot less now that i never ever pat my hair or push it towards my scalp - everything i do to my hair is always in the *down/away* direction. i don't know if that info is helpful for you - but best of luck solving your SSKs :flower:

I try to do this - I have also learned that my hair needs to work with gravity :o Thank you!


I hope you can power through this difficult length and find a solution for the knots during your long hair journey. Maybe this is wishful thinking but could it be possible that knotting could start to calm down once you grow longer... anyone have this kind of experience? :hmm: Logically thinking it could be the exact opposite but who knows. Good luck blackgothicdoll!

You're so sweet! I've asked on another forum and most said that ssks continued no matter how long their hair got LOL. Trust me I was hoping too! But wishful thinking is my haircare practises will improve with length and then knotting will decrease... I can dream :D

[blackgothicdoll]

Can you detangle with just conditioner after waiting for it to be damp or dry if it being in a wet state is an issue? You do not have to worry about massive amounts of shrinkage that may contribute to knotting. And if you do go this route, then you can stretch the hair in twists with some conditioner on to stretch it, wait for it to dry, and add a bit more conditioner to detangle.

More specifically, I started to add my leave-in when wet and twist my hair up. Then, I put on an extra conditioner that I can use to detangle (also a cream for styling may work if you pick a good one out that can work as a detangler) and I do my style of choice. Sure, I do get more build-up then I used to by adding a leave-in and a rinse out conditioner, but I prefer that over having to cut or trim my hair. And I can leave a style in more.

Well I have done something similar, which is when I did my oil treatment, I would slather conditioner on my hair (which was completely dry) and let it sit there for awhile, braided up in sections, then I would get in the shower and detangle one section at a time with a tangle teezer. So it was dry, but under running water in an interval of time that the oil prevented it from shrinking, until it was all rinsed out. Where I may have gone wrong here was letting all of my hair out at once, I could have re-braided and then continued with washing. Whew that sounds like an exercise but I think it'll be worth it.

Speaking of which, do you also wash in sections or do you wash your hair all at once? Now, I've tried applying leave in and applying conditioner in the shower or while under running water, and I'm not sure if it's a porosity thing but by the time I am back out of the water all of the product is gone. Really odd. That's why i got into applying product outside of the shower, one section at a time with a spray bottle. But my hair dries quickly, so while I'm working on one section and another section is drying, the drying section becomes a PITA by the time I get around to it. So another hint I should keep it braided through that entire routine. What sort of conditioner do you use to detangle?


I mostly get single strand knots. I realised that I may reduce the amount of them forming but due to the nature of my hair this will happen. My hair forms tight spirals or coils the ends are looping to form a knot, all it takes is for the hair to slip the wrong way then get pulled or combed or moved for that knot to slip in place. No amount of conditioner or oil can control the direction of how the hair ends will move. I just accept that I will have to do some s & d to keep the ssks at bay. I have started noticing that since my hair got passed mbl I am finding double knots on the end of single strands. The last cm or inch of hair has a knot and then a few mm or another cm up there is another knot. Sometimes there are two strands of hair that have tied into a knot the last cm, I call those double strand knots. It is funny when a shed hair does that because suddenly I look like I have a strand of hair almost to my knee that will hurt when tugged since the end is tied to the end of a hair still attached to my scalp. That gets cut too.

I don't have much multi-strand knots to deal with since I got pro-active with hair management and started washing my hair in plaits or twists. That also cut down detangling time drastically. The hair is sectioned and better organised. There is the problem nape hair line that I will just cut off because it's awkward to try and detangle knots forming there. Usually those knots are the end of hair strands that happen when the hair is pulled making slip knots. That hair is prone to rubbing on collars, hoods and the edges of hats. Usually I can keep most of my hair detangled handling it wet. Any potential multistrand knot slides away with finger detangling and or careful combing.

Hmmm. I guess this begs the question, how many ssks are too many and how much is the normal amount? I have that exact nape problem, I just had to snip off all of the ends of my nape hairs (which are short anyways) and find that so frustrating! I will need to snip my shorter ear hairs too, I hoped I could grow those long just because I keep touching them due to how they feel and it's a bit of a nervous twitch, but unless I just shave those suckers this might be my life from now on. I also get the double strand knots on the ends! Those drive me nuts. And the shed hairs where I'm suddenly BSL... or where I think I'm tugging out a shed hair and it doesn't make it all of the way out... those drive me nuts.

So about washing in braids, I had the same question for meteor but if I recall, you do WO, no products at all correct? As my question was regarding if you keep your hair braided for the entire duration of the washing process, or if you unbraided at any point to remove shed hair or make sure no shampoo/conditioner/whatever else gets trapped in there.

Thanks :o

[lapushka]

I'm not really sure. I do experience the same webbing that she describes, though I don't ever let my hair dry in a shrunken state - seriously, detangling my hair the way she is would give me an anxiety attack, she seems like a very calm and patient person! :o But going in sections is definitely a good idea, which does take me back around to washing in sections.

Look through her other videos sometime; she doesn't often do wash 'n gos. :flower:

[enting]

Yeah I'd sooner rather s&d lol I can't imagine going at those suckers with a pin... I could see how some could be relieved because they don't always tie all the way, but I would save that energy for a strand of hair I've grow very attached to. :p Is it ACV you use, or just plain vinegar?


Agreed, I also s&d ssk's out. I feel like my hair would be damaged at that point anyway and there's no point in trying to save it.
I use whatever is cheapest in the grocery store :D. Sometimes it's plain white vinegar, sometimes it's colored vinegar that is attempting to masquerade as ACV but it's just acetic acid and caramel coloring. It made my hair feel pretty greasy and weighed down for the first month or two until my scalp adjusted, but it's fine now.
At first I used just vinegar and water but quickly added some drops of essential oil for my scalp. I don't think the essential oil makes a difference as far as not being drying/slip goes.

And yes, I do still get ssk's, to some extent I think they're a part of the wurly/curly life.

[milosmomma]

I think rebraiding after washing each section could be a viable solution, or at least be a help. The free spirals are likely bouncing around while you're tending to other sections and I think that's when they form. If you think about tying a knot in a piece of string it has to double back over itself, so prevent that and prevent the knotting I would assume. Have you tried kckt to detangle in the shower? I find it very slippery and excellent for that purpose. Also I like to water my kckt down just because it is a little expensive and I find that even watered down it doesn't lose it's effectiveness. Even half and half hasn't made it less effective but I save a lot of product :)

[blackgothicdoll]

Ok, so I washed today because my hair was just way too dry and here is what I ended up trying.

1. Oil prepoo as usual.
2. Added conditioner over oil to dry hair and braided hair into 6 sections.
3. Started the shower and unbraided one section at a time, using the TT to work out the shed hairs while the sections were still somewhat straight, also getting the oil and conditioner off and then rebraided.
4. Followed by shampoo, I started in the braids with my scalp, then unbraided all of the braids and lathered down the rest of my hair. I was nervous doing this, but oddly my hair does not tangle when it is very clean, and since I clarified this time there was no frizz or tangling.
5. So I added my DC (I used the Eden's one that milosmomma suggested, you weren't kidding about that slip!) and rebraided into the same sections as before, DC'd with a heat cap.
6. Rinsed out the DC, unbraided one by one and added my second conditioner (I used one of the GF treats which is technically also a mask, but I really really needed moisture so I just went for it) rebraiding each time. I detangled again while doing this using a flex wet brush - this thing is so flimsy and felt weird but it actually worked by not forcing its way through knots! Then I rinsed the conditioner while still braided.

I towel blotted my hair (still in braids) after the shower, then one by one, unbraided those braids, used LOC and seperated into the 12 usual braids I use to dry in. My hair was only damp after being towel blotted, and since it was (almost) completely detangled, I didn't feel the need to keep spritzing it with water. Also, keeping the other sections braided while attending to one section prevented those from drying out and then tangling. I made it through my whole head only using my fingers, ran into a couple of small tangles but not one big knot! Even my trouble section wasn't too difficult to get through. The most tangling this time around happened at the roots, which was of course where my hair was braided and I generally don't get enough conditioner in there to detangle... but it was nothing too bad.

So that sounded like a lot, but in all honestly even with the extra conditioning and the prepoo it took about as long as any of my wash days where I prepoo and DC. It took a bit longer to wash, but it took half as long to style so it seemed to even out. It'll be tricky experimenting since the weather is getting warm, and I wash more in warm weather, so if I could get away with braiding up my hair and washing just my scalp with just water then I'll just have shorter versions of this routine. I'll keep experimenting and adjusting in midair, as there are still some other tips from this thread I want to try.

Thanks everyone for all of the help and suggestions :o

[lapushka]

Sounds promising! :D

[meteor]

Ok, so I washed today because my hair was just way too dry and here is what I ended up trying.

1. Oil prepoo as usual.
2. Added conditioner over oil to dry hair and braided hair into 6 sections.
3. Started the shower and unbraided one section at a time, using the TT to work out the shed hairs while the sections were still somewhat straight, also getting the oil and conditioner off and then rebraided.
4. Followed by shampoo, I started in the braids with my scalp, then unbraided all of the braids and lathered down the rest of my hair. I was nervous doing this, but oddly my hair does not tangle when it is very clean, and since I clarified this time there was no frizz or tangling.
5. So I added my DC (I used the Eden's one that milosmomma suggested, you weren't kidding about that slip!) and rebraided into the same sections as before, DC'd with a heat cap.
6. Rinsed out the DC, unbraided one by one and added my second conditioner (I used one of the GF treats which is technically also a mask, but I really really needed moisture so I just went for it) rebraiding each time. I detangled again while doing this using a flex wet brush - this thing is so flimsy and felt weird but it actually worked by not forcing its way through knots! Then I rinsed the conditioner while still braided.

I towel blotted my hair (still in braids) after the shower, then one by one, unbraided those braids, used LOC and seperated into the 12 usual braids I use to dry in. My hair was only damp after being towel blotted, and since it was (almost) completely detangled, I didn't feel the need to keep spritzing it with water. Also, keeping the other sections braided while attending to one section prevented those from drying out and then tangling. I made it through my whole head only using my fingers, ran into a couple of small tangles but not one big knot! Even my trouble section wasn't too difficult to get through. The most tangling this time around happened at the roots, which was of course where my hair was braided and I generally don't get enough conditioner in there to detangle... but it was nothing too bad.

So that sounded like a lot, but in all honestly even with the extra conditioning and the prepoo it took about as long as any of my wash days where I prepoo and DC. It took a bit longer to wash, but it took half as long to style so it seemed to even out. It'll be tricky experimenting since the weather is getting warm, and I wash more in warm weather, so if I could get away with braiding up my hair and washing just my scalp with just water then I'll just have shorter versions of this routine. I'll keep experimenting and adjusting in midair, as there are still some other tips from this thread I want to try.

Thanks everyone for all of the help and suggestions :o

Yay, sounds really good, blackgothicdoll! :D Your braided wash is a lot more involved and intense than what I do (just because I think I can get away with less, plus I'm *super* lazy with hair), but it does sound promising. And yes, my tangling happens at the very base of the braids (where the braids start) during braided washes, and I think it's to be expected, so adjust your choice on where to start the braiding accordingly. I like to section areas into braids also according to which sections tangle more (e.g. finer-stranded sections separated from coarser areas, which can go into bigger braids).
And yes, definitely keeping hair in braids that start low can be a good base for scalp-only washing, too. Try keeping length covered in a plastic bag/shower cap, if you can, for those. We have some scalp-only washing threads going around, too... I think if 90% of your tangles happen on wet hair, it's important not to get it soaking wet when that's not necessary and to limit moving hair around too much unnecessarily when it's wet (since that's when it can loop and fold onto itself, forming some knots and tangles).

[H o n є y ❤]

@blackgothicdoll I clarify every single wash so it's not strange. Do you section your hair when you wash?

edit: I just saw that you do section your hair.

[Hairkay]

Hmmm. I guess this begs the question, how many ssks are too many and how much is the normal amount? I have that exact nape problem, I just had to snip off all of the ends of my nape hairs (which are short anyways) and find that so frustrating! I will need to snip my shorter ear hairs too, I hoped I could grow those long just because I keep touching them due to how they feel and it's a bit of a nervous twitch, but unless I just shave those suckers this might be my life from now on. I also get the double strand knots on the ends! Those drive me nuts. And the shed hairs where I'm suddenly BSL... or where I think I'm tugging out a shed hair and it doesn't make it all of the way out... those drive me nuts.

So about washing in braids, I had the same question for meteor but if I recall, you do WO, no products at all correct? As my question was regarding if you keep your hair braided for the entire duration of the washing process, or if you unbraided at any point to remove shed hair or make sure no shampoo/conditioner/whatever else gets trapped in there.

Thanks :o
I keep my hair braided throughout the whole washing process. I only restyle once a week so I have daily rinses where I just wash the hair, dress and get out the house. Once a week I will do a DIY conditioning treatment with my hair still in plaits/braids. After I am finished I will undo each plait detangle and replait then move onto the next plait or hair section. I may have two sections undone at a time when my hair style is going to be somewhat different from the previous style. It is rare that I have all my hair out during washing and I save that for a few sunny days when I let my hair out in a wash and go. Yes even that is product free. I may add a tiny bit of oil to the hair ends that's it.


Ok, so I washed today because my hair was just way too dry and here is what I ended up trying.

1. Oil prepoo as usual.
2. Added conditioner over oil to dry hair and braided hair into 6 sections.
3. Started the shower and unbraided one section at a time, using the TT to work out the shed hairs while the sections were still somewhat straight, also getting the oil and conditioner off and then rebraided.
4. Followed by shampoo, I started in the braids with my scalp, then unbraided all of the braids and lathered down the rest of my hair. I was nervous doing this, but oddly my hair does not tangle when it is very clean, and since I clarified this time there was no frizz or tangling.
5. So I added my DC (I used the Eden's one that milosmomma suggested, you weren't kidding about that slip!) and rebraided into the same sections as before, DC'd with a heat cap.
6. Rinsed out the DC, unbraided one by one and added my second conditioner (I used one of the GF treats which is technically also a mask, but I really really needed moisture so I just went for it) rebraiding each time. I detangled again while doing this using a flex wet brush - this thing is so flimsy and felt weird but it actually worked by not forcing its way through knots! Then I rinsed the conditioner while still braided.

I towel blotted my hair (still in braids) after the shower, then one by one, unbraided those braids, used LOC and seperated into the 12 usual braids I use to dry in. My hair was only damp after being towel blotted, and since it was (almost) completely detangled, I didn't feel the need to keep spritzing it with water. Also, keeping the other sections braided while attending to one section prevented those from drying out and then tangling. I made it through my whole head only using my fingers, ran into a couple of small tangles but not one big knot! Even my trouble section wasn't too difficult to get through. The most tangling this time around happened at the roots, which was of course where my hair was braided and I generally don't get enough conditioner in there to detangle... but it was nothing too bad.

So that sounded like a lot, but in all honestly even with the extra conditioning and the prepoo it took about as long as any of my wash days where I prepoo and DC. It took a bit longer to wash, but it took half as long to style so it seemed to even out. It'll be tricky experimenting since the weather is getting warm, and I wash more in warm weather, so if I could get away with braiding up my hair and washing just my scalp with just water then I'll just have shorter versions of this routine. I'll keep experimenting and adjusting in midair, as there are still some other tips from this thread I want to try.

Thanks everyone for all of the help and suggestions :o

It sounds as if you've found a solution that works for you. Yes keeping the sections braided does stop the hair from drying out too fast. Even hair doing it's usual drying shrinking thing can help knots form so the braids will reduce knot formation.

[milosmomma]

Oh yay! I'm so happy you've had some positive progress! And so happy you've liked my recommendation, I swear I tell everyone about it, I just love it!
It does sound like alot of steps, do you think it will become overwhelming to keep up with every wash? I dont mind taking extra time for washing because it means better hair for the entire 4 days or until next wash. Granted I have fewer steps but if your hair likes it then give your hair what its asking for :)

[blackgothicdoll]

As to answer how many knots is a lot of knots, here's a picture from me doing an s&d on one small section of my hair. I went through the rest of my hair and attempted, but then my back started hurting, there are an incredible amount of knots. Is it possible to continue growing out hair this damaged? The knots create weak points and break, and in this section you can see the splits that are likely caused from breakage. It also causes me to get knots further up in my hair, short hairs in long sections of hair, those probably cause more tangling.

https://i.imgur.com/yZXxLiN.jpg

I wish I knew how it got this bad.

[blackgothicdoll]

Oh yay! I'm so happy you've had some positive progress! And so happy you've liked my recommendation, I swear I tell everyone about it, I just love it!
It does sound like alot of steps, do you think it will become overwhelming to keep up with every wash? I dont mind taking extra time for washing because it means better hair for the entire 4 days or until next wash. Granted I have fewer steps but if your hair likes it then give your hair what its asking for :)

I think it will become overwhelming. I try to stretch my washes to 4-5 days, but when I exercise and sweat heavily I usually can't bear waiting to wash, and when warm weather comes it's even less possible. So I'll be back to the drawing board sooner than later :/

[milosmomma]

I would say that look like a normal amount I would find after a short 15 20 minute s&d session. Although I find a smaller number or knots with more splits and those weakened 90° angle hairs that are just barely hanging on. You can pull them off easily with little force, I cut those just above the weak point. I say normal, if I have a long session and try to go through all of my hair I would say my pile of little trimmings would be about double. But I also have less dense hair than you I believe, so you probably have more strands per square inch, meaning more strands that could have knots/splits etc.
I think my hair is in need of a trim though, in the last 2 years I have only had one small dusting so it's probably time :)
I hope with your new routine the numbers start to fall. I also think you can continue to gain length without s&d at all, but 8n the long run it should help you retain more length just because those knots are no longer in your hair causing trouble and making more knots and tangles.

[milosmomma]

I think it will become overwhelming. I try to stretch my washes to 4-5 days, but when I exercise and sweat heavily I usually can't bear waiting to wash, and when warm weather comes it's even less possible. So I'll be back to the drawing board sooner than later :/
Maybe you can stream line it down for just those workout/sweaty days. I know our hair is different textures but I think both our hair loves moisture. All I have been doing is shampoo with sls type, put oil for roo, eden bodyworks on top and let sit. Rinse and second round of eden's or I will still have oil. Essentially its WCC with roo after the W. Of course I think you should continue with braid washing, maybe fewer braids will streamline the process? And sealing at the end. Wishing you the best hair vibes :)
ETA sorry double post, I saw your reply after the fact

[lapushka]

Have you ever, ever tried just doing either a twist out or a plain old wash 'n go? It might be worth it to try and find a different way to style the hair. You never know unless you try, right? I do only hope it doesn't make things worse.

[blackgothicdoll]

Have you ever, ever tried just doing either a twist out or a plain old wash 'n go? It might be worth it to try and find a different way to style the hair. You never know unless you try, right? I do only hope it doesn't make things worse.

I do essentially wear braidouts, though I don't wear them 'out', I simply bun afterwards or switch over to dutch braids or any other style. As for twistouts, twisting my hair with two strands causes the ends to tangle. I think my hair may not be thick enough to form a proper twist, it never results in the twists I see people with in YouTube videos, they just unravel themselves or the ends form multistrand knots.

As for wash-and-goes, sounds odd but that is a very scary thing to try. For one, it is a lot of gel and product overall, a lot of manipulation, and from my experience attempting to do that only makes my hair shrink more. I've tried doing that when I first went natural (though that was close to 10 years ago) and I found it was a lot of drama to attempt to detangle my hair after letting it shrink that much. When I say shrink I mean it would shrink up to maybe ear length... which definitely did not look good on me. :p

I really, really hope to do wash and goes when my hair looks longer... and I mean long enough that my hair wouldn't shrink so much... but I don't know how long that'll be. :/

eta: now a flat twist out, those results were pretty good last time I tried doing it that way and braiding the ends. I forgot why I haven't done that in while... I don't think it was knots because it shapes the hair differently. I may need to try that again....

[blackgothicdoll]

I would say that look like a normal amount I would find after a short 15 20 minute s&d session. Although I find a smaller number or knots with more splits and those weakened 90° angle hairs that are just barely hanging on. You can pull them off easily with little force, I cut those just above the weak point. I say normal, if I have a long session and try to go through all of my hair I would say my pile of little trimmings would be about double. But I also have less dense hair than you I believe, so you probably have more strands per square inch, meaning more strands that could have knots/splits etc.
I think my hair is in need of a trim though, in the last 2 years I have only had one small dusting so it's probably time :)
I hope with your new routine the numbers start to fall. I also think you can continue to gain length without s&d at all, but 8n the long run it should help you retain more length just because those knots are no longer in your hair causing trouble and making more knots and tangles.

That makes me feel a lot better. :o If they can hang on for dear life, I can grow them out with the rest of my damage. It's just gonna be a pain, but if I can start really preventing them then it'll improve over time, I'm hoping. My hair is surprisingly less dense than it looks, which can be seen when it is flat-ironed, but that's a good way to think about it. :)


Maybe you can stream line it down for just those workout/sweaty days. I know our hair is different textures but I think both our hair loves moisture. All I have been doing is shampoo with sls type, put oil for roo, eden bodyworks on top and let sit. Rinse and second round of eden's or I will still have oil. Essentially its WCC with roo after the W. Of course I think you should continue with braid washing, maybe fewer braids will streamline the process? And sealing at the end. Wishing you the best hair vibes :)
ETA sorry double post, I saw your reply after the fact

That sounds like something my hair would like! I actually forgot about ROO, my hair did love that, I should definitely revisit it. I'll see if fewer braids still works, would definitely make things a bit quicker. Thank you so much. :)

[milosmomma]

That makes me feel a lot better. :o If they can hang on for dear life, I can grow them out with the rest of my damage. It's just gonna be a pain, but if I can start really preventing them then it'll improve over time, I'm hoping. My hair is surprisingly less dense than it looks, which can be seen when it is flat-ironed, but that's a good way to think about it. :)



That sounds like something my hair would like! I actually forgot about ROO, my hair did love that, I should definitely revisit it. I'll see if fewer braids still works, would definitely make things a bit quicker. Thank you so much. :)

No problem! Very happy to help and come up with ideas for you!

[lapushka]

I do essentially wear braidouts, though I don't wear them 'out', I simply bun afterwards or switch over to dutch braids or any other style. As for twistouts, twisting my hair with two strands causes the ends to tangle. I think my hair may not be thick enough to form a proper twist, it never results in the twists I see people with in YouTube videos, they just unravel themselves or the ends form multistrand knots.

As for wash-and-goes, sounds odd but that is a very scary thing to try. For one, it is a lot of gel and product overall, a lot of manipulation, and from my experience attempting to do that only makes my hair shrink more. I've tried doing that when I first went natural (though that was close to 10 years ago) and I found it was a lot of drama to attempt to detangle my hair after letting it shrink that much. When I say shrink I mean it would shrink up to maybe ear length... which definitely did not look good on me. :p

I really, really hope to do wash and goes when my hair looks longer... and I mean long enough that my hair wouldn't shrink so much... but I don't know how long that'll be. :/

eta: now a flat twist out, those results were pretty good last time I tried doing it that way and braiding the ends. I forgot why I haven't done that in while... I don't think it was knots because it shapes the hair differently. I may need to try that again....

You have to do what's most comfortable and do-able for your needs. I forgot for a minute that your hair was CBL and 4a curls do shrink a lot. Sorry for that!

[blackgothicdoll]

You have to do what's most comfortable and do-able for your needs. I forgot for a minute that your hair was CBL and 4a curls do shrink a lot. Sorry for that!

No problem at all! After all, you are right, it's worth a try, and I have been thinking about giving it a shot for awhile now instead of just saying never... I'll do it soon enough, when I work up the courage. xD I'm trying to experiment with hair styles now anyway so that's on the list, just at the very bottom.... :lol:

[ynne]

I think it will become overwhelming. I try to stretch my washes to 4-5 days, but when I exercise and sweat heavily I usually can't bear waiting to wash, and when warm weather comes it's even less possible. So I'll be back to the drawing board sooner than later :/

The search function doesn't seem to work for me, so I might yet again suggest something that was mentioned, but do you ever use dry shampoo (or some natural alternative) to extend the time between wash days?

[01]

Wow. One of reasons why I buzzed my hair was I just couldn't stand combing them anymore. Daily combing with horn 'works' for me, in the sense they don't loc, but it takes like 1,5 h to detangle! Daily! And my hair behaves best when I comb twice a day! People, I have a life (or at least I like to think I do *laughs*). I don't want to spend so much time on hair. This starts at lob/past shoulder. It doesn't seem to be noticeably worse at longer lengths... Lob isn't any easier than tailbone or classic.

[lapushka]

No problem at all! After all, you are right, it's worth a try, and I have been thinking about giving it a shot for awhile now instead of just saying never... I'll do it soon enough, when I work up the courage. xD I'm trying to experiment with hair styles now anyway so that's on the list, just at the very bottom.... :lol:

LOL! Don't feel I pushed you into it, if it's reluctant, don't do it.

[01]

Basically in any durations of time that it is in its natural state, that time is its opportune moment to start tangling and forming knots. Once I've detangled and styled it's smooth sailing.
Yes, yes, yes! I absolutely never, never wear my hair in 3c, never. I didn't even knew my hair is curly, I always combed a lot (with medium/fine tooth combs) and my hair was classic, so I can relate to person here who said she had ironed, heat damaged, but waist length hair. It's fascinating. It's like I'm having a very similar, almost identical problem as you guys but I use combing instead of flat ironing (well, I'm white, my hair is different even if it's 3b/c). So I always had these damaged, poofy, formless (not straight, not wavy, not curly... Just poof) hair with tons of split ends. Eventually I got into this whole 'taking care of your hair' thing and after trying CO and some herbal masks and stuff it turned out my hair are 3b/c BUT, hell, when they are 3b/c they loc on themselves. They make these mini ball locs/tangles the size of my not tangled curls. So I get these mini curls all over but some of the curls loc instead of curling. Waahh, as you can imagine I combed everything out hysterically each time I saw that. So I always ended up combing everything 'straight', slathering my hair in oil and wearing wet look buns/braids. Eventually I just buzzed everything off and stopped doing anything (I just wash and I scritch daily because I have to due to my dandruff drama). So I can totally relate to hair being completely unwearable in their natural pattern! They're just not managable if they aren't straightened in some way! What all these people who are like 'wear your hair in their natural state, go natural, love yourself, blahblahblah' are even thinking? Wearing matted, physically uncomfortable hair is self love?

*I meant I scritch daily, I don't wash daily, heh.

[SwanFeathers]

01 ...What all these people who are like 'wear your hair in their natural state, go natural, love yourself, blahblahblah' are even thinking? Wearing matted, physically uncomfortable hair is self love?...

The idea is that just because your texture may not be the one hailed by the particular society you live in, it doesnt mean its any less amazing. In addition to that, not everyone with curly or kinky hair experiences matting, either because of their technique or because of individual curl pattern. Learning to care for your own texture is a learning experience everyone must go through, no matter what texture you have.

[BerrySara]

The idea is that just because your texture may not be the one hailed by the particular society you live in, it doesnt mean its any less amazing. In addition to that, not everyone with curly or kinky hair experiences matting, either because of their technique or because of individual curl pattern. Learning to care for your own texture is a learning experience everyone must go through, no matter what texture you have.

Amen.

No need to generalize entire groups of textured hair types. I have 3c hair and I wear my hair in its natural state with far less effort and trouble than having to brush and beat it into imitating a different hair texture. What you choose to do with your hair is 100% your choice. Same goes for anyone who choose to love and wear theirs in their natural state.

The self love aspect comes from when you accept yourself exactly as you are. Doesn't mean cant wear your texture in other ways or you cant change it, it just means you don't hate or shame yourself for whatever it is you do have. You don't think less of yourself for having a different texture than what is hailed ideal in the particular society you live in as SwanFeathers put it.

[blackgothicdoll]

Yeek... I didn't want to get back to this topic again. My hair is my hair, it's not the same as everyone else with my hair type. My hair also has chemical, mechanical and heat damage, that can cause tangles. A lot of people with my type, or my cousins (3c, 4b) have no problem wearing their natural hair, but unfortunately I happen to be one of those who (at least, presently) cannot. Maybe when my hair is all virgin things will change, but who knows.

I'd also note that not everyone who has commented in this thread and has experience with knots/tangles is 3c/4a. it can happen to anyone :p

[01]

I'd also note that not everyone who has commented in this thread and has experience with knots/tangles is 3c/4a. it can happen to anyone
Oh, I know, I know. What I meant is my hair locs when I try to wear it curly. Like that dog. *laughs* I didn't mean people with straight hair don't have tangles or other problems, they sure do! I'm just sick of everyone acting like wearing your natural texture will solve all your hair problems... And like everyone *wants* to do everything for their hair. Maybe I'm tired and I don't want to give all that attention to my hair. I just want to solve my problems and make my life easier but all these blogs and yt just give me more, more, more things I'm supposed to do. Maybe I liked being a bit tomboyish? Maybe I want my routine to be minimalist? Suddenly I'm supposed to do god knows what only to achieve very basic hair goals. I'm expected to basically go against my character for... I don't know what? Some sort of social approval? Some idea of pseudo self love that other people are selling me? This doesn't seem like self love *to me* and doesn't serve me well psychologically. It might be the other way around for very 'girly girls' who used to chemically straighten or used flat irons all the time, maybe for them it is a revolution, a positive thing. But I can't help feeling like it's all just a chore...

My hair are/were virgin most/all of my life (I only had some henna for a while). No flat/curling irons. And they still do that *shrugs*. In my closest family people were doing curly perms so curly hair was seen as something desireable, although noone knew how to handle naturally curly hair. My grandfather had my pattern when he was young but he was already bald when I knew him so whatever...

Sorry if someone already answered that, I'm on page 4, but you can WO wash on some days if you sweat a lot but don't want to overwash your hair. Funnily enough, when I was looking for info about lemon rinse today I found you can supposedly use it as a mild wash, I think I'll try it. https://www.hairbuddha.net/lemon-juice-boosts-shine-and-helps-oily-limp-hair/

[lapushka]

Yeek... I didn't want to get back to this topic again. My hair is my hair, it's not the same as everyone else with my hair type. My hair also has chemical, mechanical and heat damage, that can cause tangles. A lot of people with my type, or my cousins (3c, 4b) have no problem wearing their natural hair, but unfortunately I happen to be one of those who (at least, presently) cannot. Maybe when my hair is all virgin things will change, but who knows.

I'd also note that not everyone who has commented in this thread and has experience with knots/tangles is 3c/4a. it can happen to anyone :p

^^ I had no idea. It might very well get better when it's all natural. :flower:
Hang in there!!!

[ynne]

01: I think it's completely fair if you just don't want to give your hair that much time & attention. Do what works for you! :) People commented on what sounded like generalizations about curly hair, not your personal situation and your choice.
Side note: it's not necessarily "girly" to enjoy taking care of your hair (+ there are guys and nonbinary people–like me!–on this very forum, and historically, it was also not a girls-only thing). But I do like your point about minimalist routine. Personally, I hope that once I figure out what my hair likes, I will be able to simplify it... I also can't & don't want to have a complex, multi-product routine, it's exhausting. Right now I'm excited about making my hair happy and learning to accept it, but I feel you on not wanting to spend too much effort on it long-term!

[blackgothicdoll]

^^ I had no idea. It might very well get better when it's all natural. :flower:
Hang in there!!!

Yeah I suppose that would have been helpful information :o Sorry, sometimes I forget various things, my first thread about my heat damage showed pictures of how I had straight sections of hair - some of those are also from mechanical damage (nylon bristle brush on wet hair). And I used to use lift + deposit dyes in full head applications because I had no idea that could damage hair...at least three of those, before my final ppd rich permanent dye back in June. Yes there is a lot going on on my head LOL.

[blackgothicdoll]

Oh, I know, I know. What I meant is my hair locs when I try to wear it curly. Like that dog. *laughs* I didn't mean people with straight hair don't have tangles or other problems, they sure do! I'm just sick of everyone acting like wearing your natural texture will solve all your hair problems... And like everyone *wants* to do everything for their hair. Maybe I'm tired and I don't want to give all that attention to my hair. I just want to solve my problems and make my life easier but all these blogs and yt just give me more, more, more things I'm supposed to do. Maybe I liked being a bit tomboyish? Maybe I want my routine to be minimalist? Suddenly I'm supposed to do god knows what only to achieve very basic hair goals. I'm expected to basically go against my character for... I don't know what? Some sort of social approval? Some idea of pseudo self love that other people are selling me? This doesn't seem like self love *to me* and doesn't serve me well psychologically. It might be the other way around for very 'girly girls' who used to chemically straighten or used flat irons all the time, maybe for them it is a revolution, a positive thing. But I can't help feeling like it's all just a chore...

My hair are/were virgin most/all of my life (I only had some henna for a while). No flat/curling irons. And they still do that *shrugs*. In my closest family people were doing curly perms so curly hair was seen as something desireable, although noone knew how to handle naturally curly hair. My grandfather had my pattern when he was young but he was already bald when I knew him so whatever...

Sorry if someone already answered that, I'm on page 4, but you can WO wash on some days if you sweat a lot but don't want to overwash your hair. Funnily enough, when I was looking for info about lemon rinse today I found you can supposedly use it as a mild wash, I think I'll try it. https://www.hairbuddha.net/lemon-juice-boosts-shine-and-helps-oily-limp-hair/

Well, I can relate on that note. I think I know where you're coming from with the natural movement, and self love etc. I feel like a lot of things are left and right but no middle - at one point you were ungroomed if your hair was not straight/tame, and now you hate yourself if your hair is not in it's natural state. You've grown your hair long and are familiar with your hair and what it does, so your decisions are educated on your experience and there's nothing wrong with that at all!

I've never had long hair, and I do truly feel that most of my hair woes occur from my hair being short. Being late because I need to fix my hair, or not wanting to go out at all because I can't get my hair to behave... that's really no way to live. So now I'm trying to grow it long, because that's the only thing I haven't tried! And if that fails, I'll probably just keep the length and always wear box braids (without extensions), that is fool proof for my hair type.

While I don't feel maintenance is 'girly' (somehow nothing I do is girly, I could slather myself in pink glitter and still seem boyish, I used to hate that about myself but I've accepted it), I do feel that it's something I only want to do when I want to do it. That's why my wash routine was sort of.... eh, it worked, but didn't work work. Once it becomes a chore, something's gotta give. As for WO, if it still involves getting all of my hair wet it still puts me in the same situation. I got my hair braided with extensions today, so I have time to decide what i want to do for the rest of the summer, but if I get enough confidence I'll switch over to box braids without extensions since I can do them myself and they are a lot more comfortable. In box braids, I can wash/wet my hair as often as I want to, and without extensions I can redo the braids whenever is needed one by one. So yeah, I am still in the learning and options phase.

[ynne]

Oh, one more thing, do you know the "Tightly Curly (http://www.tightlycurly.com/welcome/)" website & method? I think you follow the basics that are the same in CGM, but unlike CGM it seems aimed specifically at 4s hair?
I didn't thoroughly study it, though, just stumbled upon it. :)

[lapushka]

Oh, one more thing, do you know the "Tightly Curly (http://www.tightlycurly.com/welcome/)" website & method? I think you follow the basics that are the same in CGM, but unlike CGM it seems aimed specifically at 4s hair?
I didn't thoroughly study it, though, just stumbled upon it. :)

Pretty good method, and not unlike CG by much.

[JennGalt]

I keep seeing this thread and meaning to share my own weird tip since your hair problems sound a lot like mine, right down to the trouble with cones. Each time I get interrupted before I can reply though.

I’ve not read the whole thread, and this will seem pretty off the wall, but hear me out. Sticking to non ionic cleansers might help. My hair is extremely porous even with my heat damage gone, and I don’t need anything to lift up the cuticle to get it clean. Nor do i want the cuticle raised anymore than it naturally is because it’s damaging in the long run, contributes to dryness, contributes to tangling, contributes to hygral fatigue, and my hair can take almost a week to recover from the wrong cleansing agents. I noticed a huge difference after using only SM shampoos and co-washing. I wanted to know why and started paying more attention to ingredient labels and researching ingredients. Turns out my hair has a strong aversion to anionic cleansers. I can feel whether my cuticle is raised or not, and when it’s up my hair wants to turn into one big dry dreadlock. Certain humectants will cause the same problem if I use them in leave in products so I got rid of those too. Now that I know how to keep my cuticle from standing at attention, my tangling issues are nowhere near as bad as they once were.

(Side note: SM is fond of changing their ingredients often and has begun using some mild anionic surfactants. A combination of decyl glucoside and sodium lauroyl lactylate seems to work best for MY hair, so I stick to shampoos with those as the only cleansers. I ran out last week and tried something else—my hair was NOT happy.)

If you’re interested, here are some of the links I found when doing my research:
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/shampoos-harsh-mild-and-otherwise.html?m=1
http://www.thenerdycurlygirl.com/2017/06/cleansing-agents-101.html?m=1
https://www.rightringlets.com/2014/12/all-about-surfactants-and-how-to-choose-a-mild-shampoo/
Naturallycurly.com and CurlyNikki.com also have a bunch of pages on the subject easily findable with the help of a search engine. I was not able to find every website or page that turned up in my original search for info, but these are a good start.

It’s all about finding what works for your particular hair, even if your hair is quirky and finicky like mine. I know this suggestion is strange, but we often seem to have a lot of similar hair behavior so I thought perhaps it might help you.

[Luna Starsetta]

can i suggest using oils to detangle coconut oil seems to work best for a lot of my friends with coarse hair. then get in the shower and do what you normally would. if that does not work for you or you don't like oil to detangle idea. my next suggestion is to detangle in the shower with conditioner in your hair.(make sure it is a conditioner that can provide a lot of slip.)

[01]

Sorry for being inconsiderate and sort of... hijacking your thread. It wasn't on purpose. I need to learn how to express my feelings in less threatening, non-choleric way. I keep trying to practice but it isn't working for some reason. It's your thread, I shouldn't been so self-focused. Hope you'll find some easy, simple routine that'll fix your problems.

As far as WO goes (since you've been asking others about it) people usually use *something* in their hair, but it's mostly DIY products, oils, etc. I've been using literally only water for a long time now and I think it's not a good idea unless your hair is really strong. I had better hair when I always kept oil in my hair and used henna and shampoo once every 3 months, WO washes once a week.

For me, I got to a point in my life when I just can't be bothered anymore... After buzzing I stopped detangling altogether. I'm having a pixie now and plan to not detangle as long as it's possible. No-detangling bob should be doable, maybe. If I'll decide to grow my hair longer and it'll stop working (I'll laugh if it'll work) I'll probably do braids or twists and redo them once every couple weeks, whatever time it's safe to keep them in and not have them loc. I tried all the suggestions, combing wet, etc... Everything works at first but then makes them tangle 6x times worse than before 'treatment'.