Non-Coney Slip for Neolithic Longhairs

[Kalamazoo]

There's probably a thread on this someplace, but I'm curious about how ancient longhairs got some slip going back in the dark ages before silicone-containing conditioners were invented? So I guess my answers would be coming from traditions like Ayurveda or Ancient Chinese Medicine or other traditions from indigenous people.

[blackgothicdoll]

Marshmallow root and slippery elm are known to give some pretty good slip.

[Kalamazoo]

I was thinking of slippery elm & wondering if the "slippery" in the name might be a clue! Thank you!

[Ophidian]

Fenugreek. Aloe. Slimy plants like that form a film that has somewhat coney properties.

[Kalamazoo]

So okra would work?

[guska]

Some ethnic minority groups in China (e.g. Yao) have used fermented rice water in their haircare routine for centuries. I have tried FRW, and it does give a nice slip, but my hair (and the Yao women's) is in the straight-category and pretty slippy nonetheless :shrug:

[Kalamazoo]

I've heard FRW is good for encouraging growth. Does it also function as a shampoo?

[blackgothicdoll]

I've heard FRW is good for encouraging growth. Does it also function as a shampoo?

I don't think it would... I believe it's used as a rinse, such as a tea rinse. I can use it maybe once here and there, but there's alot of protein in it so you've gotta be careful with that if your hair doesn't like protein.

[Kalamazoo]

Thank you!!

[guska]

I've tried going FRW-only. It was pretty cleansing, but my scalp doesn't produce a lot of sebum in the first place :shrug:

[Ophidian]

So okra would work?

Yup, I think it was nymphe who did an okra experiment at some point? If you look up the sciency hairblog article on film forming humectants, it explains how these plant gels work. Also flax, chia...

[Kalamazoo]

Yup, I think it was nymphe who did an okra experiment at some point? If you look up the sciency hairblog article on film forming humectants, it explains how these plant gels work. Also flax, chia...

Will do! Thanks!

[Kalamazoo]

I've tried going FRW-only. It was pretty cleansing, but my scalp doesn't produce a lot of sebum in the first place :shrug:

All this info in one place is VERY helpful! Thanks!

[Deborah]

Vinegar is an old standby from before actual conditioners were sold.

[Kalamazoo]

Wow. There's gobs of stuff out there!

[lithostoic]

Marshmallow

[Kalamazoo]

Marshmallow

How would you use marshmallow? Somehow, methinks our Neolithic ancestors didn't run to the grocery store, buy a bag of Kraft marshmallows, make s'mores, and then smooth that on their tresses ... although I imagine the Hershey's chocolate bar could combat premature gray...

[Kalamazoo]

Yup, I think it was nymphe who did an okra experiment at some point? If you look up the sciency hairblog article on film forming humectants, it explains how these plant gels work. Also flax, chia...

I found

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/film-forming-humectants-what-they-are.html?m=1

(I wonder if that link will work. The title is "Film Forming Humectants - What They Are and Why You Need Them".)

Is that the article you were referring to?

[Ylva]

How would you use marshmallow? Somehow, methinks our Neolithic ancestors didn't run to the grocery store, buy a bag of Kraft marshmallows, make s'mores, and then smooth that on their tresses ... although I imagine the Hershey's chocolate bar could combat premature gray...

Marshmallow root.

[Kalamazoo]

Will do! Thanks!

And how do you find nymphe's okra experiment? I searched for "nymphe okra" & got no results.

[Kalamazoo]

Marshmallow root.

So mayhap one can buy the root in powder form & mix it with water?

[blackgothicdoll]

So mayhap one can buy the root in powder form & mix it with water?

Yes, it's made similar to flax-seed gel. If you look on YouTube you can find a lot of videos on these.

[Kalamazoo]

I knew the s'mores had to be the wrong way to go!

[Ophidian]

I found

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/film-forming-humectants-what-they-are.html?m=1

(I wonder if that link will work. The title is "Film Forming Humectants - What They Are and Why You Need Them".)

Is that the article you were referring to?
Yes! That’s the one.

[Kalamazoo]

Thanks!!!!

[Ophidian]

Sure! I love this stuff :). I’m not 100% sure if it was nymphe here that was experimenting with okra, but I’ll see if I can find a thread for you. In the mean time, there’s several videos up on YouTube and tutorials on natural hair blogs you may want to check out.

ETA: I’m not finding any specific threads for it, but it has been mentioned sporadically on the herbal haircare forum (you can use the search thread drop down and type in okra). There’s not a lot on it, and I might not be correct that nymphe ever mentioned it - she was a very prolific experimenter though :).

[Kalamazoo]

Okie-doke!

[Ophidian]

Here’s some assorted tidbits based on things I’ve tried in this vein:

Methi/fenugreek: You can soak whole seeds in water or use the powder (strain before use). I use it as the primary conditioning ingredient of my herb wash. Soaking it for long enough for the mucilage to release is key. I mix it with boiling water and let it sit around 4-6 hours before use or until the liquid has visibly thickened up. Some use fenugreek tea it as a final rinse or a spritz. Has a distinctive scent.

Marshmallow: I haven’t had a ton of experience with this, but check out this (https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=143925&highlight=Holy+grail) thread (yes it’s the herb root, not the fluff variety :D).

Slippery elm: This stuff gets slimy as soon as the water touches it. I’ve used it before as a rinse out conditioner and like it.

[Kalamazoo]

Wow! Thanks!

[Kalamazoo]

So if certain food items (marshmallow plant, okra, etc.) are slippery enough when appled to the hair so that one could survive without conditioner, detanglers, etc. -- Could one possibly eat enough of the plant mentioned so that one's hair would naturally grow tangle-free?

[Kalamazoo]

OK, so, based on everybody's advice here, I've invented my own conditioner:

After shampooing (with Earthly Delight Shampoo), pour George's Aloe Vera on scalp & hair.

Air-dry.

Place 2 T. Fenugreek Seeds in 2 c. bottled Spring Water.

Leave in fridge at least overnight. (I think mine's been there for a month.)

Whenever hair seems tangly, apply the soak water to the tangle.

On the wet hair, apply a little oil. (I've been using Earthly Delight Pomade. Ingredients: Coconut oil, Olive oil, Beeswax, Candelilla wax, Vitamin E, Sage EO, Rosemary EO, Bergamot EO, Nettle leaf, Argan oil. It's as thick as petroleum jelly. I think anything of that basic consistancy would work as a sealant.)

This next part may not be CG-Friendly, but it works for me (I'm somewhere between 1b & 2a.): I gently work my fine-toothed ox horn comb through each snarl, applying Fenugreek Soak Water & Earthly Delight Pomade to each tangle, until I can comb straight from scalp to ends. I've read that some curlies are able to comb their hair ONLY in the shower, when it's loaded with conditioner & very wet.

I really, Really, REALLY appreciate everybody's help. Thank You!

:disco::joy::hollie::magic::toast:

[Ophidian]

I’m so happy you’ve had success with fenugreek! You’ve inspired me to try seeds instead of powder next time I buy some :)

[blackgothicdoll]

Oh, I'm tempted to try the seeds. I tried mixing the powder form fenugreek with conditioner once, and couldn't quite rinse it all out. Went to the gym a couple of days later and started sweating and smelled like... well... fenugreek. Someone got on the treadmill next to me for 20 seconds and then got back off. :lol:

Does the scent of fenugreek linger in the way you used it, Kalamazoo? I really did like the slip the powder gave me.

[Kalamazoo]

The fenugreek scent is mild. But then, I'm not using it full-strength, since I'm following it immediately with the Earthly Delight Pomade. I like it a lot better than my natural wet-hair aroma. But I still play around with my Captain's Choice 45th Parallel Aftershave, trying to get the cherry scent going. Still, the fenugreek scent is hardly noticeable, and not unpleasant.

But the part I'm really crazy about is that I think I have fewer split ends, tangles, 90° angle bent hairs, and white dots than I did immediately before the fenugreek & pomade treatments. (I've been doing them off & on for about a month -- about as long as I've been soaking those fenugreek seeds in my fridge.) My ends no longer seem like Velcro.

So I'm spending less time on S&D, and even after shampooing again (with Earthly Delight Shampoo, bottled spring water with a drop each of peppermint EO & clove EO/gallon, followed by George's Aloe Vera), & I'm getting soft, silky, thick-looking, smooth hair that people are commenting on... which is something for someone with fine hair that was thinning...

[Kalamazoo]

I tried a homemade dry shampoo (blue cornmeal + seasalt) after a heavy oiling, thinking it would cut the grease. No, it made a paste, & then it was absolutely necessary to use water & shampoo! I think powder of any sort + oil + hair = big mess.

But I'm no expert.

[Kalamazoo]

I tried a homemade dry shampoo (blue cornmeal + seasalt) after a heavy oiling, thinking it would cut the grease. No, it made a paste, & then it was absolutely necessary to use water & shampoo! I think powder of any sort + oil + hair = big mess.

But I'm no expert.

ETA:

I have used powders of Ayurvedic herbs with oils & eggs, aloe vera, witch hazel & aftershave to make a paste to put on my hair to promote extremely rapid hair growth. I also used The Inversion Method & lots of scalp massage (usually with combs made of either wood or horn) in conjunction with the homemade paste. It seemed to me to work, but I didn't feel quite comfortable having to shampoo my hair 6 or 7 times to get the mess out.

But I may decide that the extremely rapid growth rate and the conditioning effects of all the herbs & oils justify & protect against all the shampoo.

I'm still interested in more natural shampoos.

Pantene's out for me. It makes me itch like nobody's business.
Aliffia made my hair mat terribly.
Castile Soap coats my hair with soap & just plain doesn't get it clean.
And I'm fanatic about avoiding chemicals, because my allergies really flare. So, yeah, how did the Neolithic longhairs grow their lustrous locks long?

I had pretty good success with grinding cilantro & spring water in my food processor. I haven't tried it after a heavy oiling yet. Guess I need to do that.

And soaking the fenugreek seeds? I have a shampoo recipe that says to drain off the soak water & grind the seeds to a paste, leave it on for 40 minutes & rinse. Haven't yet gotten past soaking the seeds. But the soak water's a great thing in & of itself.

At least I've got my Earthly Delight Shampoo on stand-by, in case my experimental shampoos don't cut the mustard.

[blackgothicdoll]

Kalamazoo, I gave the fenugreek soak water a try, just mixing it with a hair mask that I didn't like because there wasn't enough slip. It worked wonderfully after shampooing!!! I think I will try putting some in a spray bottle and using it to detangle.

I'm very picky with shampoo as well because of my dry scalp and hair combination - they rarely agree on the same thing. So far my favorite has been the Forest shampoo bar from QUA Organics: https://www.etsy.com/listing/216808887/forest-strengthening-big-shampoo-bar?ref=shop_home_active_9&crt=1

The bars have risen in price, but she offers samples which are worth a shot.

[Kalamazoo]

Thank you, Blackgothicdoll!

I'm also sensitive to MSG, and any time "protein" is a listed ingredient (as in "quinoa protein" or "silk amino protein"), it means that the glutamic acid (a protein) is freed from its natural bonds, making it into "free glutamic acid" rather than the safer "bound glutamic acid", so I'll have to pass on this one. (For more info, see Debbie Anglesey's book, Battling the "MSG Myth": A Survival Guide and Cookbook.)

But I really appreciate your thinking of me!

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here with shower cap on head, because I've got the fenugreek seed goop, Thayer's Witch Hazel, my favorite Captain's Choice 45th Parallel Aftershave, & some peppermint EO on my hair, & am about to try rinsing it out. Can't wait to see how this will turn out! Will it grow my hair 1.5"/day?

[Kalamazoo]

Results:

OK, #1, I rinsed it with Crystal Geyser Spring Water, heated on the stovetop to a nice lukewarm temperature, with some peppermint EO & clove EO added in (a drop or 2 of EO/gallon water).

Secondly, I had to remember that the fenugreek is supposed to coat the hair with a viscous film, and so resist the temptation to get it squeaky clean. (I would have had to use "real" shampoo to make my hair squeak. I was trying to think of the fenugreek goop as my shampoo.)

So, now that my mane's dry, there's a mild fenugreek smell -- nothing I think objectionable. I combed it out with a cherry-wood comb which I had previously rubbed with Captain's Choice 45th Parallel Aftershave & cocoa butter. I didn't have to work through too many tangles, & they weren't stubborn.

My hair seems thicker, & it doesn't look greasy (as it was starting to look before I washed it).

I'm happy. The thing I like best is that I'm not sneezing. I like not being allergic to my hair!

I will probably add some Earthly Delight Pomade to the ends, later.

ETA: I've been having trouble with my fingernails peeling, etc. Dipping my fingertips in the fenugreek goop, rubbing it all around my hands like hand cream, & drying my hands on a paper towel was immediately, instantly helpful for dry skin, dry cuticles, and just plain making my nails look a WHOLE lot better.

[Kalamazoo]

P.S. I have now shampooed my hair twice since my last post on 2/18, & it still smells mildly of fenugreek to my nose; but nobody else has seemed to notice. It still has slip to it that also has not washed out... Pretty good results, methinks.