Hard water help?

[_janne91_]

Hi all!

i joined this site 2 years ago and followed advice with great results so I’m back.
for 2 years I’ve CWC, once a week. Dried naturally then heat styled once a week and oiled ends as needed. Simple and easy.

ive moves country and discovered where I live has hard water- I’m renting and cannot install a soft water demineralization. My hair is flat and heavy, oily fast, ends drying and the build up looks like dandruff (or I could have it too now due to dry skin).

Ive looked up the following solutions
- chekating shampoo
- apple cider rinse
- baking soda shampoo

im looking for any advice as to if these have worked or where I should start, or if you have any other solutions I am all ears!!!

thank you :)

[lapushka]

I would clarify/chelate first, then see how you fare. Could be build-up.

I have had hard water all my life and no issues (not saying you can't have them because it does occur).

But maybe buy products in the country you are in, they might be "geared" towards the hardness of the water. Just a quick tip.

[ReptilianFeline]

Avoid baking soda, especially with hard water. You need the other spectrum, the acid side of pH.

A rinse with Magic Water (recipe on this site somewhere) is very helpful... or add a bit of citric acid to your poo mix.

[harpgal]

http://watersticks.com

This works very well for me.

[Fethenwen]

I also have hard water, the only thing that works for me is to add citric acid into the water I use for washing hair, we get water from our well. I fill a large basin with water and add about two teaspoons of citric acid. Works wonders, before I started washing my hair this way, my hair was a frizzy mess and I had to use deep cleansing shampoo once a week. I also notice I need to wash less frequently with this method.

[MusicalSpoons]

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2016/03/hard-water-and-your-hair.html is a great post about hard water and hair. One point that I don't think is often discussed when this comes up on LHC is that a higher pH means you're more likely to have problems with hard water. (I wonder lapushka what your pH is, whether it's why you and I don't seem to have any negative effects despite both having very hard water? :hmm: Mine is consistently just above pH 7, so almost neutral.)

OP do you know how hard your water is? If you haven't already, you should be able to get a report, even just a general one for your area - water providers over here have them online for free - you'll have a good idea of what exactly you're dealing with, including pH.

As always, what works wonders for some does nothing for others, so it will be a case of just trying things to see. I use a shower filter, not to soften the water (because they generally don't, with a couple of exceptions) but to help with the chloramine - I haven't actually noticed any difference in my hair but my skin tells me when the filter needs changing :lol:

Edit: harpgal thank you for that link - I clicked on it and found an article about why shower filters don't soften water, which is what I've been trying to work out for a while! Yay, thank you!

[lapushka]

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2016/03/hard-water-and-your-hair.html is a great post about hard water and hair. One point that I don't think is often discussed when this comes up on LHC is that a higher pH means you're more likely to have problems with hard water. (I wonder lapushka what your pH is, whether it's why you and I don't seem to have any negative effects despite both having very hard water? :hmm: Mine is consistently just above pH 7, so almost neutral.)

You also don't have any issues? I am *so* glad! Because I often feel like I'm the only one that's not bothered by it. I once did ACV rinses, made no difference. The citric acid rinses were nice, but in essence made no significant difference (my hair did feel nice, though).

Now I am using a shampoo called "Kiwi shine", by Schwarzkopf (long discontinued) and it is for use with hard water. But I do think the products here in general are catered to the water.

ETA oh and about the pH. Now I'm curious. I do wonder.

[AshtangiPNW]

Hi there! My water's pH is just a bit above 7. Similar to MusicalSpoons and Lapushka. :) I have a water filter on my showerhead. The filter itself doesn't alter the pH but I think that it does remove some of the minerals. It wasn't particularly expensive (maybe, $30?). In any case, I tend to use the Nightblooming Alluvial Chelating Crystal Rinse as a final rinse. I only use a tiny bit (1/4 tsp in a full liter of water). I'm not sure that I actually *need* the final rinse, but it makes my hair feel instantly very silky and smooth! I wonder if a citric acid rinse every once and a while might help? I don't imagine that it could do much harm to try....

[MusicalSpoons]

You also don't have any issues? I am *so* glad! Because I often feel like I'm the only one that's not bothered by it. I once did ACV rinses, made no difference. The citric acid rinses were nice, but in essence made no significant difference (my hair did feel nice, though).

Now I am using a shampoo called "Kiwi shine", by Schwarzkopf (long discontinued) and it is for use with hard water. But I do think the products here in general are catered to the water.

ETA oh and about the pH. Now I'm curious. I do wonder.

Well, I do still have a tiny nagging suspicion that hard water *might* be a contributing factor to why my hair looks oily so quickly, and I'm sure with softer water I might need less conditioning, but certainly no actual problems :) the author of SHB does mention that people who've always had hard water are simply used to it, and I guess that includes unknowingly accounting for the water in our routines :shrug:

Interesting point about products catering to the water. I wonder if that's one reason different markets have different formulations - though in the UK the majority of people have hard or very hard water due to where the population is densest, the actual variation throughout the land is right the way through the spectrum from very soft to very hard (and whole-house softening systems are not particularly common, in my experience).

[AshtangiPNW]

Well, I do still have a tiny nagging suspicion that hard water *might* be a contributing factor to why my hair looks oily so quickly, and I'm sure with softer water I might need less conditioning, but certainly no actual problems :) the author of SHB does mention that people who've always had hard water are simply used to it, and I guess that includes unknowingly accounting for the water in our routines :shrug:

Interesting point about products catering to the water. I wonder if that's one reason different markets have different formulations - though in the UK the majority of people have hard or very hard water due to where the population is densest, the actual variation throughout the land is right the way through the spectrum from very soft to very hard (and whole-house softening systems are not particularly common, in my experience).

I'm also not particularly bothered by the hard water. I have lived in a few areas with *very* soft water, though (cistern rainwater, glacier and spring water). I definitely do notice a difference in the softness and condition of my hair across these sorts of extremes. Rainwater cisterns are *not* common in my current location, though! So hard water it is. haha :) :o

[MusicalSpoons]

Sorry AshtangiPNW I didn't see your previous post before typing mine. Citric acid is one of the primary ingredients in Nightblooming's alluvial rinse, so it probably would have a similar beneficial effect for you.

You can easily buy citric acid and ascorbic acid very cheaply - they are the ingredients for miracle water too. The alluvial rinse has many good things going for it, I'm sure (and if I lived in the US I'd definitely consider trying it), but for anyone like me for whom the cost of postage is prohibitive (or you're on a strict budget) making miracle water is a viable alternative. You can also play with the ratios to get the best results for your water and hair, though I would advise making sure to test the pH if you're going to experiment. SHB has a blog post all about pH and hair so you can make informed decisions if you do go down that route.

Citric acid is supposed to soften the water by binding with some of the minerals, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) neutralises chlorine and chloramine, whichever one is in your water.

Oh my, glacier and spring water invoke images of meadows and heavenly soft hair ... I've actually considered rainwater but that's a whole other area of research, for how to ensure it's clean (insert mental image of algae and drowned insects here ... shudder: ) and extra effort. I don't have the energy for that!

[Obsidian]

Or you could just buy a chelating shampoo. Joico makes a good one, so does Paul Mitchell.

[AshtangiPNW]

Sorry AshtangiPNW I didn't see your previous post before typing mine. Citric acid is one of the primary ingredients in Nightblooming's alluvial rinse, so it probably would have a similar beneficial effect for you.

You can easily buy citric acid and ascorbic acid very cheaply - they are the ingredients for miracle water too. The alluvial rinse has many good things going for it, I'm sure (and if I lived in the US I'd definitely consider trying it), but for anyone like me for whom the cost of postage is prohibitive (or you're on a strict budget) making miracle water is a viable alternative. You can also play with the ratios to get the best results for your water and hair, though I would advise making sure to test the pH if you're going to experiment. SHB has a blog post all about pH and hair so you can make informed decisions if you do go down that route.

Citric acid is supposed to soften the water by binding with some of the minerals, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C) neutralises chlorine and chloramine, whichever one is in your water.

Oh my, glacier and spring water invoke images of meadows and heavenly soft hair ... I've actually considered rainwater but that's a whole other area of research, for how to ensure it's clean (insert mental image of algae and drowned insects here ... shudder: ) and extra effort. I don't have the energy for that!

haha, thanks MusicalSpoons :) :):flower: That's a great idea to make the miracle water at home for those who are not in the US. As for me, I've hardly made a dent in my small jar so it will be a long, long while before I might even consider making my own. Uff, yes. The holding cistern for the rainwater was underground and I never *actually* looked down there, but I did have a water filter as well. Just in case frogs and other insects found their home down there....shudder: That was also my source of drinking water....:hmm:


Or you could just buy a chelating shampoo. Joico makes a good one, so does Paul Mitchell.

Oh, really? Sounds like it could also be a good idea for those who can use sulfates (alas, my scalp and skin won't tolerate them at all). :)

[_janne91_]

Thank you all so much I’ve read the comments and will follow up on the ph and do some trial error with the recommendations- FYI moved from rural Australia to San Antonio America so big changes all round!
Thanks for link too!!

[_janne91_]

Oh I read this site and it mentioned eczema !! Mine has flared up so badly must be the water...

[Ligeia Noire]

I keep it simple. I chelate and that's it. Joico k-pack is a good choice.

[Wendyp]

Mine was so bad I invested in a water softener system. Huge difference. But if that’s not an option acv rinses will help.

[dagny]

I have hard water and didn't realize it until I kept thinking my hair was dry because it always felt like straw and was frizzy. Nothing ever helped: baking soda, vinegar washes, oils, etc.
After 1 chelation treatment, my hair was amazingly soft and shiny again!

After the chelating shampoo treatment (from Sally's) I have maintained by distilled water/vinegar water as a final rinse.
My method:
1 gallon distilled water with ACV mixed in (mainly to preserve the water). After washing my hair in the shower, I pour the distilled water/ACV into a large container that I got from Ikea. I dunk my head into the container and swish my hair in the water. Then I wrap my hair up in a huge T-shirt and pour the distilled water back into the jug. Every month or so I purchase a new jug of water.

Since the minerals in the hard water are only an issue once the water dries, this is why I continue to use the regular (hard) shower water for washings.

My chelation treatment was done this summer and I have yet to repeat it. My hair is still soft and shiny. :-)

[littlestarface]

My water is very hard all I use is a chelating shampoo and it helps. When people have very hard to extremely hard water it will always help to chelate in one way or another, some people here wont have water as hard as you or probably harder than yours so always keep that in mind. Look up your area for hardness and PH and always keep track of your hair, if your hair is dry tangly coated mess then it will need to be chelated to get those minerals out of your strands.

[t.singh1]

Mine was so bad I invested in a water softener system. Huge difference. But if that’s not an option acv rinses will help.


A water softener does actually help. I live in Dublin which is a very hard water area and getting a water softener has made a huge difference for me. The hair feels much more soft.

[Carrie's hair]

I am buying a handset that has filtering granules inside. The filters also reduce water consumption. The handset lasts for about 3 months. It all depends on the hardness of the water. I think it's a nice solution because you can take it on a trip. I did that when I stayed in hotels.

[Fimu]

I have hard and alkaline water (135 ppm total hardness, pH 8 ) but it doesn't contain chlorine and heavy metals, so it isn't too bad for my hair. I chelate now and then with Ion Hard Water and do pre-poo treatments before every wash.

Are you allowed to install Showersticks? I understood it's easier to install that than a whole softening system, but not sure how that works for rentals.

[Scream-Queen]

I am in the same boat ): renting.. Hard water is the worst.. But I dont think its horrible where I live because my hair seems in decent good shape. Ive never been somewhere where they had (not hard) water? Lol. So I dont know how my hair would act.:confused:

[lapushka]

I am in the same boat ): renting.. Hard water is the worst.. But I dont think its horrible where I live because my hair seems in decent good shape. Ive never been somewhere where they had (not hard) water? Lol. So I dont know how my hair would act.:confused:

We have had hard water all my life here. I may be an exception here on this forum, but I never have had issues. Just need to use a lot of product, that's all. You learn after years and years. Same with the washing machine. It even states on the labels for the detergent, use more product for hard water. Gotta do what you gotta do. :)

[Scream-Queen]

We have had hard water all my life here. I may be an exception here on this forum, but I never have had issues. Just need to use a lot of product, that's all. You learn after years and years. Same with the washing machine. It even states on the labels for the detergent, use more product for hard water. Gotta do what you gotta do. :)

I'm glad to hear hard water doesnt wreck with your hair and skin! I'm very curious how my hair will act if I used a filter? But on the other hand why change something thats working . if my hair is healthy and growing thats all that matters :)
Oh and the washing machine... Love hate relationship haha

[Carrie's hair]

I have hard and alkaline water (135 ppm total hardness, pH 8 ) but it doesn't contain chlorine and heavy metals, so it isn't too bad for my hair. I chelate now and then with Ion Hard Water and do pre-poo treatments before every wash.

Are you allowed to install Showersticks? I understood it's easier to install that than a whole softening system, but not sure how that works for rentals.
Was that a question for me? Sorry, now I notice. I have a bathtub, so I can't mount something like that. There is not enough space. I am buying something like in the link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Modes-Bath-Adjustable-Jetting-Shower-Head-Saving-water-Filter-SPA-Showerhead-/383578605140

[florenonite]

I am in the same boat ): renting.. Hard water is the worst.. But I dont think its horrible where I live because my hair seems in decent good shape. Ive never been somewhere where they had (not hard) water? Lol. So I dont know how my hair would act.:confused:

I think it probably depends a lot on *how* hard it is. For instance, where I live the water is between 400-500 ppm, and at my parents' house it's 600 ppm. My hair and skin feel AWFUL if I shower when the water softener is running low. On the other hand, water in the 100-200 ppm range is also considered hard, but it might not have the same effect because it's got less than half the dissolved solids compared to my water.

[MusicalSpoons]

I think it probably depends a lot on *how* hard it is. For instance, where I live the water is between 400-500 ppm, and at my parents' house it's 600 ppm. My hair and skin feel AWFUL if I shower when the water softener is running low. On the other hand, water in the 100-200 ppm range is also considered hard, but it might not have the same effect because it's got less than half the dissolved solids compared to my water.

It also depends on pH and other water quality factors. pH in particular because the higher the pH, the more the hard water ions interact with the hair; but also what else is in the water, not just calcium carbonate and magnesium.

Edit: but yes, actual hardness does make a difference. Once it reaches 'very hard' on the scale that only tells you the minimum hardness, not how hard is *actually* is (a bit like iii hair could be 4" or 6"+, which is a huge difference).

We have what's classed here as very hard water (~330ppm) but the pH is always around 7 and there's no appreciable iron or copper or anything else really in it, whereas I hear of awful water elsewhere in the world - alkaline, orange, tastes of nails, etc.

[florenonite]

It also depends on pH and other water quality factors. pH in particular because the higher the pH, the more the hard water ions interact with the hair; but also what else is in the water, not just calcium carbonate and magnesium.

Edit: but yes, actual hardness does make a difference. Once it reaches 'very hard' on the scale that only tells you the minimum hardness, not how hard is *actually* is (a bit like iii hair could be 4" or 6"+, which is a huge difference).

We have what's classed here as very hard water (~330ppm) but the pH is always around 7 and there's no appreciable iron or copper or anything else really in it, whereas I hear of awful water elsewhere in the world - alkaline, orange, tastes of nails, etc.

Oh, yes, that's a good point about pH. I have no idea what my water pH is, but if it's alkaline then it seems the water softener helps with that as the unsoftened water is definitely worse.

[lapushka]

I seem to have gotten into this discussion before. :lol: But what to us here (in Belgium) is hard water might not be that in other locations of the world. Let me see what we have here... gotta go check with the water co. It's:

Duitse graden (German degrees): 9,0
Franse graden (French degrees): 16,1
Mmol/l: 1,61

And that is the measurement in my street.

[Shorty89]

I seem to have gotten into this discussion before. :lol: But what to us here (in Belgium) is hard water might not be that in other locations of the world. Let me see what we have here... gotta go check with the water co. It's:

Duitse graden (German degrees): 9,0
Franse graden (French degrees): 16,1
Mmol/l: 1,61

And that is the measurement in my street.

I seem to remember you commenting about it before. :lol:

We have hard water in my city - between 173 and 215 mg/L CaCO 3 or 13-17 grains per gallon. Not sure where to get the measurements you used, Lapushka.

I do notice it on my skin a bit and use a light ACV rinse but I notice it FAR more in my parent's town. They live only an hour north but get their water form a different river. The town is too small to have it's own readings but from what I can gather, it's around 206 mg/L CaCo3. Not super different from my city but I really notice it. I'm not sure if it's pH, the minerals, or just he hardness. One day, I might buy some water testing strips and see.

OP: I know you said you can't buy a water softener but could you buy a filtered shower head? That might help.

[MusicalSpoons]

^ the Mmol/l seems to be mg/l or ppm ÷ 100.
I think gpg is *very* approximately equivalent to German degrees (°dH)

Oh, here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water#Measurement

[lapushka]

^ the Mmol/l seems to be mg/l or ppm ÷ 100.
I think gpg is *very* approximately equivalent to German degrees (°dH)

Oh, here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water#Measurement

Thanks for that. Great different ways to measure country by country. <sigh>

[Shorty89]

Thanks for that. Great different ways to measure country by country. <sigh>

Right? I'm too tired to do the math. :p

[florenonite]

Right? I'm too tired to do the math. :p

That's why I use this calculator (https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/hardness/hardness.htm) :lol:

Looks like lapushka's water is about 160 ppm or 160 mg/L CaCO3 (they seem to be the same value).

[Deborah]

We have very hard water where I live. I don't use any conditioner, but I do need to do my final rinse from a bottle of cold water (about 50 ounces) into which I have premixed about a tablespoon of citric acid powder. This helps a lot, and I don't have to deal with the smell of vinegar.

[Shorty89]

That's why I use this calculator (https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/hardness/hardness.htm) :lol:

Looks like lapushka's water is about 160 ppm or 160 mg/L CaCO3 (they seem to be the same value).

Thanks. So, since my water is a bit harder than her water, do I win a prize? :lol:

[lapushka]

That's why I use this calculator (https://www.lenntech.com/calculators/hardness/hardness.htm) :lol:

Looks like lapushka's water is about 160 ppm or 160 mg/L CaCO3 (they seem to be the same value).

Oooh thanks! :)

[lapushka]

Thanks. So, since my water is a bit harder than her water, do I win a prize? :lol:

For sure! ;) :p

[MusicalSpoons]

For sure! ;) :p

Well ... in that case I think the prize probably goes to florenonite's parents :lol: ;)
(Although I think we have at least one member with water hardness off the scale, also 600ppm+.)


I think it probably depends a lot on *how* hard it is. For instance, where I live the water is between 400-500 ppm, and at my parents' house it's 600 ppm. My hair and skin feel AWFUL if I shower when the water softener is running low. On the other hand, water in the 100-200 ppm range is also considered hard, but it might not have the same effect because it's got less than half the dissolved solids compared to my water.

[baanoo]

Well ... in that case I think the prize probably goes to florenonite's parents :lol: ;)
(Although I think we have at least one member with water hardness off the scale, also 600ppm+.)

oh wow that is really, really hard!

I just checked and our water here (brooklyn) is 62ppm and about a 7.2 ph. so, considered "moderately hard" but very slightly alkaline.

[MusicalSpoons]

oh wow that is really, really hard!

I just checked and our water here (brooklyn) is 62ppm and about a 7.2 ph. so, considered "moderately hard" but very slightly alkaline.

Cor, 62ppm is moderately soft here (with under 50 being soft). Unless you meant calcium, not calcium carbonate? In which case that would be moderately hard here too.

This is the scale the UK uses (mg/l is the same as ppm) https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/quality/hardness_category_650_wide_fw.png

But yeah, even 400-500 like florenonite has is insanely hard. 600+ is just ridiculous! :lol:

[baanoo]

Cor, 62ppm is moderately soft here (with under 50 being soft). Unless you meant calcium, not calcium carbonate? In which case that would be moderately hard here too.

This is the scale the UK uses (mg/l is the same as ppm) https://www.southwestwater.co.uk/siteassets/quality/hardness_category_650_wide_fw.png

But yeah, even 400-500 like florenonite has is insanely hard. 600+ is just ridiculous! :lol:

Hmm, interesting – I'm not very science-y so it's fun to learn so many new things about chemistry and hair! :pinktongue:
It appears, now that I'm doing a little more looking, that part of the city gets its water from a different watershed than the rest, and those parts have harder water. From the NYC water department website: "Citywide, the average hardness is about 1.8 grain/gallon (CaCO3)." According to their map, we live in the softer-water zone.

Years ago I lived in Arizona, where the water was so hard it ruined faucets and showerheads incredibly quickly. On the opposite end, when we visit family in France, I notice that my hair is always beautifully behaved and assume it must be how much softer the water is.

[Jane99]

The water here in my home in upstate NY tests at about 180ppm. Vinegar definitely makes my hair feel soft and I’m curious to see if chelating shampoo makes a difference in how my hair feels. I have a bottle and will try it next time my hair feels like it needs to be rid of some buildup. I haven’t lived in a place where the bathtub didn’t turn orange since around 2006 and have never chelated. Maybe it will make some amazing difference but I’m not holding expectations.

Baanoo, one of our favorite windy roads to daytrip on is on a back way to the Catskill mountains and the road goes through a NYC water reservoir. It’s very cool to drive through and see the wildlife (eagles) and there are a ton of beautiful hiking trails around there too. And the road is incredibly fun to drive on, with the water dammed up in a valley between the mountains. Maybe I’ll test the PPM next time we go there.

[Amelia777]

I used to have the same problem with the hard water making my hair feel really greasy and clogged up. I had sulfate free shampoo and it had to work like a charm out here but it was not doing the job. It was too short to tie back and although it looked clean it felt really gross. What really helped was Zealios Sports shampoo reviewed by SPAM. Hair feels like a silk. Though what works for one doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Play with several shampoos and see what works best for you.