Oils- How Do You Wash Them Out.

[nycelle]

I was reading the Rinse Out Oil thread and someone posted how conditioners can wash oil out better than shampoos. This is something I've read here over and over. So instead of hijacking that thread, I'm starting a new one as I'd like to hear your thoughts on how that could be?

I'm asking because if that were the case, those of us that cowash would never need to clarify. In fact, it was one of the issues I've been having since using products (poos, conditioners and stylers) heavier in oils and butters, that cowashing doesn't get it all out, not even close.

Yesterday I asked a question in a hair group about the difference in using a product labeled cowash vs conditioner. The consensus was there isn't any, just read the label and choose based on ingredients. But someone posted an interesting link on how hair covered in oil reacts to various types of washes. Definitely anecdotal, but I found my experience to be similar. Link here (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2014/11/caucasian-hair-cleansing-shikakai.html?fbclid=IwAR3jFyC6kmJyLGAEe8qVl7Y-OELKx64eZuntBX7hDZ56Rf2W7h3ZCE6PT8c)

Your thoughts?

[renia22]

For me I found this article to be very helpful. As long as I use oils, or oils in cream form (which I like better), it has to be on dry hair only. And whether I try to get them out with shampoo or conditioner (and with conditioner, I still have to wash after with shampoo, the straight up cowashing never really worked for me either), I have to apply before applying water, that really helps. I could never do the ROO method, I personally have so trouble with oils on wet or damp hair.

This article explains how to do it, it helped me out a lot when I was having trouble getting some oils out of my hair a few years back:


https://chemistrysimplified.com/lather-rinse-repeat/

[Joules]

Every single conditioner on the market contains oils, water and something to make those two mix together. Those mixing things help *dissolve* sebum in order to wash it out (that's how co-washing works), therefore they should be able to dissolve oils too when applied correctly (meaning you would need a ton of conditioner to do it). When I co-washed, I used oils on my hair, often quite heavily, and I was able to get rid of it fairly well every time.

The thing is, it won't wash out everything. Oils with higher buildup potential will cling to hair and cause, er, buildup. Conditioners help wash out grease, but not residue, if that makes sense. Besides, conditioners themselves contain quite a lot of buildup material, and using oils with co-wash just speeds up the process of accumulating stuff on your hair. So there's that.

IMO, conditioners are just a tool to get rid of grease easier, you still need shampoo to actually wash your hair and control buildup. I personally just use shampoo, there's already way too much hassle in my bathroom on hair wash days.

[lapushka]

I do know GRU on here is a curly and she CO-washes all the time, never clarifies (unless that has changed). I don't know about her use of oils, though. I'm unclear on that. I'm hoping she'll jump in here at some point. :flower:

I can't get oils out with conditioner. I can't. But I have a very finicky scalp. This also doesn't work on the lengths of my hair, as I have tried that when I was still into trying pre-poo. I don't know why that is either.

Some things you just can't explain, I guess. :hmm:

[MusicalSpoons]

This is based on previous experience; I don't do this as part of my normal routine at all now:
I personally find it easier to sit with conditioner on my head for a long time (and I don't have to be in the shower to do so!) than keep shampoo on my head. As far as I understand you would need a sufficient amount of conditioner to emulsify the whole lot, though I usually do it on damp hair to help make sure I've got full coverage, because dry hair seems to absorb the water in the conditioner too quickly to be able to thoroughly work it in without feeling like I'm causing damage. Giving it time seems to help, for both shampoo and conditioner, it's just a lot easier to do with conditioner (and I don't want to use strong surfactants on my lengths unless I absolutely have to).

As for build-up, yes there are other ingredients in most conditioners that have the potential to cause buildup. It also depends on how often you're using these ingredients, because general exposure to life can cause the layer of whatever to wear off (really wish I had to words to actually explain this properly - I know the natural lipid layer on a hair is worn away by exposure to weather, handling, etc) unless it's an ingredient that bonds strongly to the hair shaft.

Fascinating question nycelle! I look forward to reading more responses (and hopefully someone will explain better than I can).

[nycelle]

I just know that I never had build up before using oils and going cowash. Shampoo, or even certain low poos remove the oils much better on my hair. Conditioner will not get it all out.

Or maybe we have a different opinion on what build up feels like? I can imagine some liking the heavier feeling it gives, almost extra weight to the hair. I hate it though.

[neko_kawaii]

Clarifying removes residue, which can include oils. Chelating removes mineral deposits. A conditioner soak removes large quantities of oils (like a deep treatment) without drying out the hair as both types of shampoo can do if used regularly.

[Joules]

nycelle, for me buildup is when my hair starts to feel very dry and almost...coarser than it is, if it makes sense. Like it's coated in wax. I don't think I've ever got the weighed down effect (except for those times when I accidentally use too much leave-in, lol, but that's a different issue). Some people's hair is the opposite. It's another one of those YMMV things :)

Just remembered: back when I had reasonably damaged hair I could get away with using oils and co-washing and didn't get any buildup for months and months. It's only when the damage had grown out that I started to need more washing. Maybe some people have the same thing going on.

[MusicalSpoons]

I think my closest experience to what might be called buildup was when the last few inches at my very ends got a bit velcro-y and felt slightly drier, from months of heavier conditioners along with hefty amounts of oil for ROO, sometimes twice a week. However, I get the same feeling at the ends when I've used cornflour as dry shampoo for several days, which evidently travels down somewhat when I comb. So probably a type of buildup in the purely physical sense, but not true buildup because it only needs water to remove it (I usually just do a normal full wash, but it doesn't *need* anything other than water to be washed away).

I guess maybe the 'heavier' feeling is what people usually refer to as oils weighing down their hair? In the past I've only ever noticed my hair weighed down visually (mostly in my experimenting days), though I don't recall ever feeling it :shrug:

[spitfire511]

Though I know we definitely have some chemists handy - I googled for fun and thought this article helped explain (http://thebeautybrains.com/2008/03/makeup-removers-does-oil-cleansing-really-work/) the theory pretty well... for anyone who is just interested in the reading - though it's on skincare not hair...

nycelle - is it possible that your hair will just reach a saturation point that is greater than what you prefer? (I don't even know if that question makes sense - It's me making a stab in the dark :D )

[Obsidian]

I don't regularly oil due to short hair and SD, too easy to get it on my scalp but when I do oil, its fairly heavy for a couple hours pre poo. I use a ton of silicone free conditioner to get most of it out but in no way could I leave it at that. I still have to shampoo to get all the oily residue out.

I do have fine hair and build up very easily, enough so that I generally have to use clarifying shampoo daily. Even my own sebum builds up, sometimes withing 24 hours of washing. I tried co washing once, left me greasy, limp and attracting dirt like you wouldn't believe.

[nycelle]

@renia22 and @spitfire511 thanks for the article links gonna read them in a few.
Regarding the saturation point, I think it's happening too fast. Hence the need to constantly clarify which I want to stop doing.

Build up for me is when my hair feels denser, and heavier, and my waves get very loose, or I lose them altogether.
Musicalspoons - The Velcro ends are also a sign, but I also get them from too much protein.

When my hair was damaged from coloring, I was still using sulfates and silicones, so I think the sulfates removed everything with each wash. Nothing had a chance to build up. I also didn't have build-up when I first went sulfate free. It was only when I switched to cowashing and continued using oils that this happened.

Joules- That dry coarse feeling you're talking about, I was getting it in-between washes.

My last two washes I used a stronger low poo and conditioners that didn't contain oils. Well one did but it was low on the ingredient list. The conditioners were definitely lighter than what I'm used to - in fact I had to condition twice, and even left some on my ends. BUT.. holys**t, this was the first (and second) time in months that I'm not getting that dry, coarse feeling in-between washes, and my last wash was Tuesday. I can't even express how happy I am. Just don't know if this is short lived or not.

Can't go back to sulfates either. My scalp has been itch and irritation free for about a year now, so going back is not an option for me.

[lunalocks]

I use conditioner to remove oil buildup with every wash. I have an odd routine where I use the conditioner first, then shampoo twice and then soak in catnip tea. When the ends are almost dry (air drying) I put a dab of baby oil on the ends and half way up. I try to put oil on the ends every evening before bunning for the night. Once a month I use a clarifying shampoo. The catnip tea and oil routine have really prevented splits which is why I started doing this in the first place.

[lapushka]

Can't go back to sulfates either. My scalp has been itch and irritation free for about a year now, so going back is not an option for me.

Maybe there is a sulfate-free clarifyer. I know HASK has their charcoal clarifying wash. Worth checking out, I think.

[nycelle]

Maybe there is a sulfate-free clarifyer. I know HASK has their charcoal clarifying wash. Worth checking out, I think.

I have a sulfate free clarifying shampoo. That's the thing though, I'm tired of clarifying as often as I do. Even sulfate free, clarifying shampoos are rough on the hair.

Today is going to be my 3rd wash with an oil lowpoo and conditioner. Will see how long I can go using these products before I need to clarify. So far, it's looking good as my hair has been very "light?" I guess is the word for the last `week after two washes. Fingers crossed it stays that way.

[lapushka]

I have a sulfate free clarifying shampoo. That's the thing though, I'm tired of clarifying as often as I do. Even sulfate free, clarifying shampoos are rough on the hair.

Today is going to be my 3rd wash with an oil lowpoo and conditioner. Will see how long I can go using these products before I need to clarify. So far, it's looking good as my hair has been very "light?" I guess is the word for the last `week after two washes. Fingers crossed it stays that way.

Maybe it's not the oils & butters, but the other ingredients as well. Maybe try and not get deep treatments and just use a "lightweight" conditioner. But, OTOH if you get tangly hair often that might be an issue.

[nycelle]

It's definitely the oils and butters. I went sulfate free before I started using the heavier conditioners (they have all oils and butter in common). Never had this kind of build-up. Cowashing wasn't helping either.

I seem to be doing better with these last three washes. I did switch to NYMN Blue Sea Kelp & Coconut water low poo and conditioner and so far, so good.

[Lua]

when I use oil on the length of my hair, like cononut or argan, I just use my usual sulfate free shampoo and I feel like it washes off. but when I do the castor oil treatment on my scalp, I feel like just the shampoo foam won't be enough, so I dillute shampoo with water on a small container and let that mix go through my scalp, because then I feel like the shampoo has reached everything... then I massage and wash it off.

[nycelle]

I don't regularly oil due to short hair and SD, too easy to get it on my scalp but when I do oil, its fairly heavy for a couple hours pre poo. I use a ton of silicone free conditioner to get most of it out but in no way could I leave it at that. I still have to shampoo to get all the oily residue out.

I do have fine hair and build up very easily, enough so that I generally have to use clarifying shampoo daily. Even my own sebum builds up, sometimes withing 24 hours of washing. I tried co washing once, left me greasy, limp and attracting dirt like you wouldn't believe.

That's not good at all. I don't have fine hair or SD, but using oils too often isn't working either.


I use conditioner to remove oil buildup with every wash. I have an odd routine where I use the conditioner first, then shampoo twice and then soak in catnip tea. When the ends are almost dry (air drying) I put a dab of baby oil on the ends and half way up. I try to put oil on the ends every evening before bunning for the night. Once a month I use a clarifying shampoo. The catnip tea and oil routine have really prevented splits which is why I started doing this in the first place.

I think the shampoo helps remove it as well. I've never tried catnip.. interesting.


when I use oil on the length of my hair, like cononut or argan, I just use my usual sulfate free shampoo and I feel like it washes off. but when I do the castor oil treatment on my scalp, I feel like just the shampoo foam won't be enough, so I dillute shampoo with water on a small container and let that mix go through my scalp, because then I feel like the shampoo has reached everything... then I massage and wash it off.

I use agran and sweet almond. They never felt heavy going on, and I always thought my hair soaked it right up. I guess it kinda did. But between using pure oils, heavy conditioners, very moisturizing low poos and cowashing.. it's too much for me. Oil and butter OD.

I just need to cut down, a lot since none of the usual methods, other than clarifying is working to get them out.

[blackgothicdoll]

I do not believing cowashing gets out ALL of the oil. Conditioners are emulsifiers, which seem to be able to dissolve oil in a way that water itself can't. Yes, it can get oil out of your hair, no, it most definitely cannot get ALL oil out of your hair. I stretch my washes by cowashing, so if my hair gets very greasy I can do a rinse with conditioner and make it a couple of days longer without shampoo. I would never be able to make it more than a week without shampoo, however I definitely couldn't make it a full week at all without a cowash or two in between.

Now, I have low porosity hair and I am heavy handed with oils, so my experience my differ to that of those who use just a couple of drops.

[Dark40]

I would need to use a sulfate shampoo to get rid of oils or buildup. Or, a clarifying shampoo.

[PixieNixie]

My routine that I have been loving with my high porosity, fine hair is I prepoo with a mix of avocado, olive, and coconut oil (avocado is the highest percentage so the other oils are diluted a bit). I usually do it overnight, but for at least 3 or 4 hours. My hair actually will soak up a good amount of the oil. Then I slather on my conditioner. Let that sit for about 30 mins. Rinse. Shampoo with a sulfate free shampoo. Then condition again. I usually use a leave in and/or a light avacado oiling while my hair is sopping wet. I have 2a wavy hair and live in a super humid environment so the extra oils on my hair help keep the mositure in and help keep my hair from being a big huge frizz ball.

[mwallingford]

I do not believing cowashing gets out ALL of the oil. Conditioners are emulsifiers, which seem to be able to dissolve oil in a way that water itself can't. Yes, it can get oil out of your hair, no, it most definitely cannot get ALL oil out of your hair. I stretch my washes by cowashing, so if my hair gets very greasy I can do a rinse with conditioner and make it a couple of days longer without shampoo. I would never be able to make it more than a week without shampoo, however I definitely couldn't make it a full week at all without a cowash or two in between.

Now, I have low porosity hair and I am heavy handed with oils, so my experience my differ to that of those who use just a couple of drops.


THIS all the way! I believe my comment was the one you were referring to on the ROO thread. I suppose I did phrase that poorly but this is what I was trying to say. Conditioner doesn't get out ALL the oil but it takes care of the bulk of it. You will definitely be left with residue which has to be taken care of with a clarifying shampoo to get it all out. Hope this clears things up. It sounds like you've found a good routine; some people's hair just doesn't agree with oils and butters and if you're not willing to clarify regularly you likely won't be able to use them at the rate and frequency others are.

[Kat]

Before there were products labeled specifically "co-wash", we used... conditioner. That's what the "co" is for. It's not "co-wash" as in "coworker" or "co-star" or "co-locate." "Co" with what? There's no togetherness implied. (In fact, I'd argue that it's the opposite of "co" since you are using only conditioner... shampoo + conditioner would seem more of a "co" wash to me!) It's "CO wash"-- as in, initials: "Conditioner Only." (Somewhere along the way, in the past few years it seems the beauty industry has gotten ahold of the concept, decided to cash in on it, created "new" products {probably just regular conditioner with a new name attached, because the general public would neeeeeever consider just... using conditioner to wash their hair}, and messed up the name in the process.)

Around here when I picked it up years ago, pretty much everyone has always used light, cheap conditioner (Suave, White Rain, V05, etc.). Lots of it, leave it on for several minutes. Why does it work? No idea. But even in Thailand when I was having issues with getting the sweat smell out of my hair, I'd use a combination of conditioner and shampoo (I figured, along with the sweat is probably also oil, so maybe the conditioner would help with lifting that). It's also said that conditioner is mildly cleansing-- that it's a surfactant, not a detergent like shampoo. I make no claims about that, except that usually I use CWC when I wash my hair (light conditioner on length while I shampoo scalp once or twice, rinse it all, regular conditioner used as normal). Once or twice I skipped the conditioner on the length (I don't tend to shampoo my length) and my length still smelled unclean after the shower. (And no, I don't think that it was just that the smell of the conditioner always just covered up the unclean smell of my hair.) I don't skip it anymore!

I don't know about buildup, but I do know that for me, a CO wash will get oil treatments out of my hair better than 2-3 shampooings. I learned this the hard way when I first started doing oil treatments on my hair... worst was the time I did an oil treatment, washed my hair (two thorough shampooings), then we went to my ex's parents' house... where I discovered as my hair dried that it still looked very greasy. I had to hop in their shower and wash it again! After that I read about using conditioner here, and it was a huge difference.

[lapushka]

Before there were products labeled specifically "co-wash", we used... conditioner. That's what the "co" is for. It's not "co-wash" as in "coworker" or "co-star" or "co-locate." "Co" with what? There's no togetherness implied. (In fact, I'd argue that it's the opposite of "co" since you are using only conditioner... shampoo + conditioner would seem more of a "co" wash to me!) It's "CO wash"-- as in, initials: "Conditioner Only." (Somewhere along the way, in the past few years it seems the beauty industry has gotten ahold of the concept, decided to cash in on it, created "new" products {probably just regular conditioner with a new name attached, because the general public would neeeeeever consider just... using conditioner to wash their hair}, and messed up the name in the process.)

Around here when I picked it up years ago, pretty much everyone has always used light, cheap conditioner (Suave, White Rain, V05, etc.). Lots of it, leave it on for several minutes. Why does it work? No idea. But even in Thailand when I was having issues with getting the sweat smell out of my hair, I'd use a combination of conditioner and shampoo (I figured, along with the sweat is probably also oil, so maybe the conditioner would help with lifting that). It's also said that conditioner is mildly cleansing-- that it's a surfactant, not a detergent like shampoo. I make no claims about that, except that usually I use CWC when I wash my hair (light conditioner on length while I shampoo scalp once or twice, rinse it all, regular conditioner used as normal). Once or twice I skipped the conditioner on the length (I don't tend to shampoo my length) and my length still smelled unclean after the shower. (And no, I don't think that it was just that the smell of the conditioner always just covered up the unclean smell of my hair.) I don't skip it anymore!

I don't know about buildup, but I do know that for me, a CO wash will get oil treatments out of my hair better than 2-3 shampooings. I learned this the hard way when I first started doing oil treatments on my hair... worst was the time I did an oil treatment, washed my hair (two thorough shampooings), then we went to my ex's parents' house... where I discovered as my hair dried that it still looked very greasy. I had to hop in their shower and wash it again! After that I read about using conditioner here, and it was a huge difference.

Surfactant and detergent are actually the same thing. :)

[Kat]

Surfactant and detergent are actually the same thing. :)

I assume this sort of thing (https://www.quora.com/How-does-surfactant-differ-from-detergent) is what the stuff I'd read meant by making a distinction, though.

[Arciela]

Mine comes out really well with my DHS zinc shampoo! I do pre shampoo oiling sometimes and it comes out pretty nice! When I used to cowash it would take it out decently too..but no more of that since it makes my scalp itch >_>