PDA

View Full Version : Honey thread - from TBB and bits from old LHC



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

ktani
August 24th, 2008, 07:15 AM
For some reason I opted for the cinnamon even though I read all the warnings and saw the pictures! I've never had a negative reaction to anything before so I was overly confident. All I can say is everyone Test on a small area of the skin first regardless of past experiences! My skin does NOT like cinnamon! I looked in the mirror and I had red streaks all down my face! It freaked me out so I washed it all out immediately! Luckily it went away in like 20 minutes.
I think I'll try again tomorrow but with EVOO and honey.

Spun

I am so sorry that this happened to you. It has happened to others too, and thankfully, like your experience, it was temporary.

I would give yourself some time, a day or 2 at least before you try a treatment, to let your scalp and skin fully recover from sensitivity, even though the redness is gone.

Honey lightening with added oil has not been reported to be a problem, however, I suggest that you start with 1/2 tablespoon of either oil, to mak it easier to wash out of the hair.

It is the correct 4 to 1 dilution, the right honey and good water (distilled) that can make the difference for a treatment, plus keeping the hair very wet before and while it is covered.

The boosters are great but they are less important than the honey, IMO.

ktani
August 24th, 2008, 08:19 AM
Going back to the honey research from last year, I found this.

"Although the level of hydrogen peroxide in honey is very low it is still effective as an antimicrobial agent. .... been reported .... that hydrogen peroxide is more effective when supplied by continuous generation with glucose oxidase than when added in isolation ...."
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

For hair that would mean that more than 1 treatment can be necessary to get desired results in some cases, but it is most fascinationg, IMO.

When a honey lightening treatment is at full strength when applied to the hair, and dries during the time it is on the hair, I do not think that the peroxide has 1. had enough time to work and 2. the peroxide is only effective for lightening hair in solution.

From the results reported, the hair must be kept very wet during a treatment time, whether a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application or used right away to produce hydrgen peroxide while on the hair, in order for the hair to lighten.

"Hydrogen peroxide can disintegrate during transport. Oxygen and heat .... released .... In diluted solutions, the heat is absorbed by water."
http://www.lenntech.com/water-disinfection/disinfectants-hydrogen-peroxide.htm

ktani
August 24th, 2008, 10:11 AM
GlassEyes honey lightening on naturally black hair with the old recipe and dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241566&postcount=10

GlassEyes recipe and method - 4 or 5 days a week for a month
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241626&postcount=12

GlassEyes on why the old recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241667&postcount=15

Honey lightening has progressed considerably since then.

I think his results would have been much faster and better with the new dilution, distilled water and new recipes but his method was perfect, IMO.

I added the honey the used to the Successful Honeys List here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
August 24th, 2008, 01:33 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the correct 4 to 1 dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc. (weight conversion 1 g = 1 ml)
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

Note: A treatment can also be applied to wet hair.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (a must) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
August 24th, 2008, 01:34 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 24th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

Spun
August 24th, 2008, 09:24 PM
Okay so I tried it again with cinnamon and EVOO (was extra careful this time). It's still wet so I can't tell if it did anything but I can't get the cinnamon out this time. I spent like 20 minutes trying to get it out. I did shampoo and conditioner this time and it still wouldn't come out. When I towel dried my hair I could see cinnamon all over the towel.

ktani
August 24th, 2008, 10:00 PM
Okay so I tried it again with cinnamon and EVOO (was extra careful this time). It's still wet so I can't tell if it did anything but I can't get the cinnamon out this time. I spent like 20 minutes trying to get it out. I did shampoo and conditioner this time and it still wouldn't come out. When I towel dried my hair I could see cinnamon all over the towel.

Spun

Ground cinnamom has been reported to be difficult to wash out of the hair, though not for everyone.

How much did you use? It is recommended to mix it into a recipe, not add it dry, on top of one (the dry method is in an online recipe).

soleuna used only 1 tsp in her recipe.

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

I am sorry that you are having such problems.

I look forward to your final results.

wintersun99
August 25th, 2008, 11:42 AM
Spun - I never could get the cinnamon totally out either (I only use a tsp) and generally always had cinnamon bits in my hair after rinsing... for whatever reason, they disappeared when my hair dried... not sure if I just couldn't see them anymore, or if it the bits were "brushed" away... although I don't "brush" my hair, but I mess with it often finger combing and what not.

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 12:34 PM
Spun

Patch test, then try McCormick's ground cardamom if you can get it.

It is cheaper than other brands, and cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair much easier than cinnamon.

Spun
August 25th, 2008, 03:58 PM
ktani, I looked for cardamom the other day and oddly couldn't find it any of the spice sections.

I'm not sure how accurate my before and after pictures are going to be. Right before I hopped in the shower it occurred to me I should probably take a picture and ended up just using my phone. Also it was right after I finished a really intense workout so my hair is pretty nasty lol.

Before (nasty workout hair!)
http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr9/xxSpunxx/before.jpg

After one treatment (3/4 c distilled water, 2 tbs honey, 1 tbs cinnamon, 1 tbs EVOO)
http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr9/xxSpunxx/after.jpg

socks
August 25th, 2008, 04:35 PM
Sorry for the delay in reply. A new semester started up, so I was occupied with the cross-country move.

The second treatment with the correct dilution lightened my hair much more than the first did, even though I left both treatments on for the same amount of time and used cinnamon in the first treatment. My hair was so much lighter that it took me a couple days to get used to the change in color when looking in the mirror. Like the first one, it also left my hair soft and shiny.

I'll try to get pictures soon, but I'll be very busy for the next couple weeks, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to.

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 04:55 PM
ktani, I looked for cardamom the other day and oddly couldn't find it any of the spice sections.

I'm not sure how accurate my before and after pictures are going to be. Right before I hopped in the shower it occurred to me I should probably take a picture and ended up just using my phone. Also it was right after I finished a really intense workout so my hair is pretty nasty lol.

Before (nasty workout hair!)
http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr9/xxSpunxx/before.jpg

After one treatment (3/4 c distilled water, 2 tbs honey, 1 tbs cinnamon, 1 tbs EVOO)
http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr9/xxSpunxx/after.jpg


Spun

Cardamom has been difficult to find for some people.

I appreciate the effort but I really cannot tell much from either photo.

If you have a good picture of your hair before honey lightening, and can provide a picture in similar lighting as an after picture, that would be great.

How is the condition of your hair and can you see any lightening?

Is it noticable to those around you?

Also please give the exact recipe you used this time, with measurements.

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 05:36 PM
Sorry for the delay in reply. A new semester started up, so I was occupied with the cross-country move.

The second treatment with the correct dilution lightened my hair much more than the first did, even though I left both treatments on for the same amount of time and used cinnamon in the first treatment. My hair was so much lighter that it took me a couple days to get used to the change in color when looking in the mirror. Like the first one, it also left my hair soft and shiny.

I'll try to get pictures soon, but I'll be very busy for the next couple weeks, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to.

socks

No worries.

Thank you for the update.

The 4 to 1 dilution is the key to the new honey lightening recipes being so much more successful, and the correct dilution even more so, as per reports. Distilled water can make a difference too.

I am glad to read that the condition of your hair is good as well and the lightening being so very good this time.

The honey lightening boosters are not necessary for some. Honey can have a much higher peroxide level, but the boosters can aid a honey that has a lower level.

Spun
August 25th, 2008, 05:43 PM
Spun

Also please give the exact recipe you used this time, with measurements.

"After one treatment (3/4 c distilled water, 2 tbs honey, 1 tbs cinnamon, 1 tbs EVOO)"

It's slightly lighter. Very subtle.
It left my hair with lots of shine and it feels super soft.

I don't think I have any clear before photos in the same lighting. I scoured all my archived photos before posting those. That was the best I could find.

The next one will be in the same lighting.

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 05:56 PM
"After one treatment (3/4 c distilled water, 2 tbs honey, 1 tbs cinnamon, 1 tbs EVOO)"

It's slightly lighter. Very subtle.
It left my hair with lots of shine and it feels super soft.

I don't think I have any clear before photos in the same lighting. I scoured all my archived photos before posting those. That was the best I could find.

The next one will be in the same lighting.

Spun

Thank you for the recipe.

I am pleased for you that your hair looks and feels so good.

Did you keep your hair completely wet during the time that the treatment was on your hair?

If the answer is yes, I suggest trying a different honey next time.

the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

melikai
August 25th, 2008, 06:29 PM
Hi, I'm new here!

I've been growing out my highlighted hair for about a year now - I dyed it for about 10 years! I'm amazed it is still blonde, however now I've started to get some whites/greys too.

Anyways, I'm going to try both cassia and the honey (with either cardamom or cinnamon) treatment. I currently use Klorane's camomile shampoo, which I love, but not sure how much lightening/brightening it does.

I've taken some before pictures and will be sure to post those with the 'afters' on here and the cassia thread!

As well - I'm going to do a strand test, but does anyone know if I should first try the honey or the cassia, or does the order matter?

Thanks and glad to be here - what a great resource!

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 06:32 PM
Hi, I'm new here!

I've been growing out my highlighted hair for about a year now - I dyed it for about 10 years! I'm amazed it is still blonde, however now I've started to get some whites/greys too.

Anyways, I'm going to try both cassia and the honey (with either cardamom or cinnamon) treatment. I currently use Klorane's camomile shampoo, which I love, but not sure how much lightening/brightening it does.

I've taken some before pictures and will be sure to post those with the 'afters' on here and the cassia thread!

As well - I'm going to do a strand test, but does anyone know if I should first try the honey or the cassia, or does the order matter?

Thanks and glad to be here - what a great resource!

melikai

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

You can actually do both at the same time! This recipe worked beautifully for 2 people who reported. The key is to add the cassia just before you apply the treatment and mix it only with a bit of water first, not let it sit for dye release or mix any acid with it (distilled water is now recommended). Also the dilution needs to be corrected - for a 1/4 cup of honey use 1 1/2 cups distilled water, for 1/8 cup honey use 3/4 cup distilled water. It is more of a honey lightening treatment with cassia, than a cassia treatment but according to the reports, you should get the conditiong of the cassia too.

firebird on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

socks
August 25th, 2008, 06:33 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596


Wow. Kokuryu's results were really incredible. I'd like to try a few more treatments to try to lighten my hair down to a true blonde from its current ashy blondish-brown, but I probably won't get the chance to do more treatments until after Christmas.

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 06:46 PM
Wow. Kokuryu's results were really incredible. I'd like to try a few more treatments to try to lighten my hair down to a true blonde from its current ashy blondish-brown, but I probably won't get the chance to do more treatments until after Christmas.

socks

A number of reported results are incredible to me.

Check out these 2, from brown to blonde - bypassing red. With only honey and distilled water, a treatment should be easier to do - less fussing, IMO.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

socks
August 25th, 2008, 07:10 PM
Thanks for giving me hope! :lol: It's especially heartening that it took them so few treatments to get such great results.

The most annoying thing about the cinnamon- far more annoying than the itching- was how much work it was to was it out. While I can get sand out of my hair in one or two washes, it took four washes before the cinnamon was entirely gone. If the honey hadn't left my hair so soft, it would probably be quite dry by now from all the washing, since I usually only wash my hair every four days or so.

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Thanks for giving me hope! :lol: It's especially heartening that it took them so few treatments to get such great results.

The most annoying thing about the cinnamon- far more annoying than the itching- was how much work it was to was it out. While I can get sand out of my hair in one or two washes, it took four washes before the cinnamon was entirely gone. If the honey hadn't left my hair so soft, it would probably be quite dry by now from all the washing, since I usually only wash my hair every four days or so.

socks

You are most welcome.

Ground cardamom is reported to wash out of hair much easier than ground cinnamon but with a good honey like yours, and the results you have gotten, it is not necessary, IMO. Ground cardamom can be a an irritant too. Patch testing is strongly advised.

melikai
August 25th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Thanks so much for your reply ktani!
I'd seen the recipes where the honey and cassia were used together, I guess I'm just a little worried about my still very bleached ends going too golden. I want the whole to blend better than it currently is, as well as for my regrowth to be slightly more golden and lighter. I guess that's what strand tests are for.

So, I let the honey mixture (with adjusted water ratio) sit for an hour as per normal, then I add the cassia w. distilled water mixture, then slap it on me head? I don't have EVOO so I'll just be using honey + distilled water + cardamom + cassia.

Thanks for all your help!

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 07:25 PM
Thanks so much for your reply ktani!
I'd seen the recipes where the honey and cassia were used together, I guess I'm just a little worried about my still very bleached ends going too golden. I want the whole to blend better than it currently is, as well as for my regrowth to be slightly more golden and lighter. I guess that's what strand tests are for.

So, I let the honey mixture (with adjusted water ratio) sit for an hour as per normal, then I add the cassia w. distilled water mixture, then slap it on me head? I don't have EVOO so I'll just be using honey + distilled water + cardamom + cassia.

Thanks for all your help!

melikai

You are most welcome.

You do not have to use the oil or the cinnamon or cardamom - just the honey and distilled water, if you like.

And yes, you can let the honey and the correct amount of distilled water sit for 1 hour, then add the cassia (pre-mixed with a bit of distillled water just before adding it to the recipe).

By not letting the cassia sit for dye release, or use acid to mix it, it should not add any colour to the hair and as per the reported results, did not.

The honey cassia treatment lightened colour added by a cassia treatment, that had been left to dye release and had been mixed with orange juice, EVOO and undiluted honey. The orange juice and undiluted honey caused the cassia to darken firebird's hair. Undiluted honey can be very acidic (it depends on the honey). Cassia is senitive to acid levels and can add gold, red or yellow tones to hair.

Spun
August 25th, 2008, 08:07 PM
Spun

Thank you for the recipe.

I am pleased for you that your hair looks and feels so good.

Did you keep your hair completely wet during the time that the treatment was on your hair?

If the answer is yes, I suggest trying a different honey next time.

the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Yep. I kept it wet under a bag and put a fitted cap over it.
I guess I'll try another honey. Has anyone tried any of the President's choice honeys?

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 08:16 PM
Yep. I kept it wet under a bag and put a fitted cap over it.
I guess I'll try another honey. Has anyone tried any of the President's choice honeys?

Spun

One of the Successful Honeys is Billy Bee clover honey.

Have a look at the list.

Canada #1 Grade, which is a blend, comes in a dark version.

ktani
August 25th, 2008, 10:17 PM
Spun

No one has reported trying President's Choice honey.

ktani
August 26th, 2008, 09:35 PM
Honey lightening basics

Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil).

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey to 3/4 cup distilled water or x amout of honey to 4 times distilled water by weight.

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to reach maximum strength (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it.

Spun
August 26th, 2008, 09:49 PM
So I did a second treatment with the same honey and the result is still so slight. I think I need a new honey. I used Kidd Bros. I picked it because it was a dark unpasteurized honey, but apparently it's low on peroxide.
Which chain grocery stores have Billy Bee honey in Canada? I don't think I have seen it in the main grocery stores I frequent.

ktani
August 26th, 2008, 10:02 PM
So I did a second treatment with the same honey and the result is still so slight. I think I need a new honey. I used Kidd Bros. I picked it because it was a dark unpasteurized honey, but apparently it's low on peroxide.
Which chain grocery stores have Billy Bee honey in Canada? I don't think I have seen it in the main grocery stores I frequent.

Spun

I do not know where you are.

Here is the contact number for Billy Bee honey. They should tell you where you can find it.
http://www.honeylocator.com/profiles/2342900.asp

Also look for dark coloured Canada #1 grade honey. There is dark coloured one.

Spun
August 26th, 2008, 10:06 PM
I used this http://www.cacl.net/1153.pdf. It looks even darker in person. I guess I'm a bad honey picker lol.

Do you know if Safeway has Billy Bee?

ktani
August 26th, 2008, 10:10 PM
I used this http://www.cacl.net/1153.pdf. It looks even darker in person. I guess I'm a bad honey picker lol.

Do you know if Safeway has Billy Bee?

Spun

Sorry, I do not shop there.

If you want to try a honey known to have a very high peroxide value, there is Jarrah honey, but you will need to order it online.

Jarrah honey. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

ktani
August 26th, 2008, 10:19 PM
Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
August 27th, 2008, 07:20 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

socks - another success, condition of hair with corrected 4 to 1 dilution, no cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=243998&postcount=2020

socks - pictures, before and after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=247142&postcount=2049

ktani
August 27th, 2008, 08:00 AM
Honey lightening basics

Just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil).

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey to 3/4 cup distilled water or x amout of honey to 4 times distilled water by weight.

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to reach maximum strength (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it.

ktani
August 27th, 2008, 04:20 PM
The Successful Honey's List (honeys reported to be successful for honey lightening)

Australia
Jarrah honey

Brazil
Bio21 orange blossom honey

Italy
black locust honey

North America
honey in bear shaped plastic bottle from Walmart
Billy Bee clover honey

Norway
Ekte honning honey

Poland
Raw wildflower honey

UK
Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys)

Sainsburys Basics brand honey

Waitrose Wild Flower honey

U.S.
Aunt Sue's Raw All Natural honey

Hannaford Brand honey, in a bear bottle

Honey Bee clover honey

Hyvee brand honey

Laney brand alfalfa honey

Nature's Energy honey (Natures grocery store)

Ralph's brand pure clover honey

Really Raw brand honey (goldenrod, aster and wildflower)

raw, unpasteurized, blackberry honey, clover honey, orange blossom honey, tupelo honey, wildflower honey

Save Mart honey, in a bear bottle

Stater Brothers honey

Sue Bee clover honey

Target's Market Pantry Honey (In a little bear bottle)

Trader Joe's 100% desert mesquite honey, clover blossom honey

Wegmans' brand Clover Honey

Western Family Clover Honey

Spun
August 27th, 2008, 04:55 PM
The Successful Honey's List (honeys reported to be successful for honey lightening)

U.S.

Western Family Clover Honey

Isn't Western Family in Canada too? Or is it different?

ktani
August 27th, 2008, 07:43 PM
Isn't Western Family in Canada too? Or is it different?

Spun

Some honeys may overlap and be available in the U.S. and Canada. I used the country of the person who reported the honey, to place the honey on the list.

socks
August 27th, 2008, 09:06 PM
I now have pictures.

Pre-honey:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=921&pictureid=19694

After two honey treatments:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=921&pictureid=19693

The lighting is slightly darker in the after picture, so my hair was actually lightened more than what the pictures show. You can also that my hair is much shinier and that most of what remained of the semi-perm dye was removed. Most of my hair is still an ashy brownish-blonde, but the last foot or so is now more of a true blonde.

ktani
August 27th, 2008, 09:21 PM
I now have pictures.

Pre-honey:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=921&pictureid=19694

After two honey treatments:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=921&pictureid=19693

The lighting is slightly darker in the after picture, so my hair was actually lightened more than what the pictures show. You can also that my hair is much shinier and that most of what remained of the semi-perm dye was removed. Most of my hair is still an ashy brownish-blonde, but the last foot or so is now more of a true blonde.

socks

WOW! I can definitely see the colour change, and your messy bun is gorgeous, IMO.

There is no red in the after picture and your hair before the bun is lighter.

ETA: I can see the true blonde that you speak of in the ends sticking out from the bun.

Thank you so much for posting the pictures.

ktani
August 27th, 2008, 11:51 PM
socks

All of your posts

socks recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=237740&postcount=1966

socks results - success and condition of hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=239261&postcount=1987 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=239261&postcount=1987)

socks - details on water, application, and covering
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=239336&postcount=1989 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=239336&postcount=1989)

socks - another success, condition of hair with corrected 4 to 1 dilution, no cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=243998&postcount=2020 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=243998&postcount=2020)

socks - pictures, before and after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=247142&postcount=2049 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=247142&postcount=2049)

ktani
August 28th, 2008, 11:03 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

These are among the best results I have seen.

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

socks - another success, condition of hair with corrected 4 to 1 dilution, no cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=243998&postcount=2020

socks - pictures, before and after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=247142&postcount=2049

ktani
August 28th, 2008, 02:20 PM
Honey Lightening Basics

It is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil).
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey to 3/4 cup distilled water or x amout of honey to 4 times distilled water by weight.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to reach maximum strength (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 08:38 AM
Jarrah honey is known to have a very high peroxide value.

“WA scientists claim jarrah honey benefit
Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average .... But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf

see "Comparing Different Types of Honey" - date 2008
" .... Jarrah honey .... contains higher amounts of glucose oxidase .... "
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

Glucose oxidase is the enzyme in honey that produces hydrogen peroxide.

Jarrah honey suppliers I found and contacted - prices and shipping costs vary as will stock amounts. There are no doubt more suppliers out there - this to start you off. As more are reported, I will add them to this list.

International shipping will be noted with an asterisk *.

*1. Their price list and they report Jarrah honey in stock. They do ship internationally.
Prices
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html)
Contact page
http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html)

*2. Yes to Jarrah honey in stock and they ship internationally. This one seems to be fast on replies to inquiries.
Contact page
http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm)
Order page with prices
http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm)



Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

nayver
August 29th, 2008, 03:49 PM
Hello Ktani! I want to try again the honey lightening, but just applying to my roots which are darker than the rest of my bleached hair. Do I have to prepare the same amount of honey (the 1/4 honey and 3/8 water) or can I prepare a small portion?

Thanks for your help

melikai
August 29th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Alright so so far I've tried the honey lightening treatment twice. I did the 4 to 1 dilution with distilled water and also added a tablespoon of cardamon. Here are my results - let me know what you all think!

To be honest I don't notice much of a difference other than less yellowyness. The mix tastes good when it drips in your mouth though! :rolleyes:

(any waves after the second app are from a rope braid I had in earlier ;))

Picture heavy!

Before honey:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8682/hair2fg8.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hair2fg8.jpg)


http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/9002/hair3dl0.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hair3dl0.jpg)

After 1st application:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7237/honeyhair12lt2.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair12lt2.jpg)

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8955/honeyhair17qe0.th.jpg (http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair17qe0.jpg)

After 2nd application:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1465/honeyhair21af0.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair21af0.jpg)

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4889/honeyhair23lj3.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair23lj3.jpg)

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1/honeyhair26wu4.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair26wu4.jpg)

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 04:20 PM
Hello Ktani! I want to try again the honey lightening, but just applying to my roots which are darker than the rest of my bleached hair. Do I have to prepare the same amount of honey (the 1/4 honey and 3/8 water) or can I prepare a small portion?

Thanks for your help

Hi nayver!

You can size the recipes down.

Weigh out the honey first or use the conversion tables, to get the correct 4 to 1 dilution.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

The minimum recommended amount of honey to use is 10 grams, which would need 40 grams or ml of distilled water.

nayver
August 29th, 2008, 04:23 PM
Hi nayver!

You can size the recipes down.

Weigh out the honey first or use the conversion tables.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

The minimum recommended amount of honey to use is 10 grams, which would need 40 grams or ml of water.

Thanks ktani!!!! I'll try it tonight. I'm preparing just a small amount to cover my roots. I'll let you know the results ;)

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 04:26 PM
Alright so so far I've tried the honey lightening treatment twice. I did the 4 to 1 dilution with distilled water and also added a tablespoon of cardamon. Here are my results - let me know what you all think!

To be honest I don't notice much of a difference other than less yellowyness. The mix tastes good when it drips in your mouth though! :rolleyes:

(any waves after the second app are from a rope braid I had in earlier ;))

Picture heavy!

Before honey:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8682/hair2fg8.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hair2fg8.jpg)


http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/9002/hair3dl0.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hair3dl0.jpg)

After 1st application:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7237/honeyhair12lt2.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair12lt2.jpg)

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8955/honeyhair17qe0.th.jpg (http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair17qe0.jpg)

After 2nd application:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1465/honeyhair21af0.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair21af0.jpg)

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4889/honeyhair23lj3.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair23lj3.jpg)

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1/honeyhair26wu4.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair26wu4.jpg)

melikai

Thank you for postig the pictures.

You hair definitely looks less yellow to me.

How is the condition of your hair?

It looks more of an ash than a golden blonde now, to me. Honey lightening has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten golden shades of blonde (not that your hair looked brassy).

nayver
August 29th, 2008, 04:28 PM
Melikai I like better your hair after the honey treatment!!!! It looks more natural.

melikai
August 29th, 2008, 04:34 PM
Hey ktani!

Yeah, my natural colour is more ashy so I think it blends better, which is what I wanted.

As for the condition of my hair, it feels less flyaway and more...substantial? Not thicker so much as more full-bodied, if you know what I mean. It also smells amazing from the cardamon!

I'm going to keep up with the treatments every week or so and will post more pictures after a few more treatments (if I notice a change).

Thanks again for all your help and guidance ktani!

melikai
August 29th, 2008, 04:38 PM
Melikai I like better your hair after the honey treatment!!!! It looks more natural.

Yes me too. I really can't believe how yellow it looks in the first pictures! :oops:
I tried to take all the pictures in the same spot at the same time of day with the same lighting. My hair can look drastically different in different light, but I don't think I can blame that here!

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Yes me too. I really can't believe how yellow it looks in the first pictures! :oops:
I tried to take all the pictures in the same spot at the same time of day with the same lighting. My hair can look drastically different in different light, but I don't think I can blame that here!

melikai

You are most welcome!

Here is your first post with details regarding your hair colour.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=244174&postcount=2026

If you prefer ash tones, I would avoid cassia, even though I do not think that used the way it has been in a honey lightening recipe, it would add colour. The lightest colour cassia can add though is yellow and it is not ash in tone.

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 04:46 PM
Thanks ktani!!!! I'll try it tonight. I'm preparing just a small amount to cover my roots. I'll let you know the results ;)

nayver

You are very welcome.

I look forward to your new results.

melikai
August 29th, 2008, 04:56 PM
If you prefer ash tones, I would avoid cassia, even though I do not think that used the way it has been in a honey lightening recipe, it would add colour. The lightest colour cassia can add though is yellow and it is not ash in tone.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. I bought some and am going to do a strand test on the lighter parts to see if it will go too yellow. I don't want it to be *too* ashy because I have greys that emphasize that, but my natural colour is somewhere between ash and beige.

Prior to doing the honey I used a homemade camomile and lemon spray and am wondering if that was what made it so golden!? I guess my highlighted ends are so porous they'll soak anything up easily.

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 05:02 PM
Yes, that's what I was thinking. I bought some and am going to do a strand test on the lighter parts to see if it will go too yellow. I don't want it to be *too* ashy because I have greys that emphasize that, but my natural colour is somewhere between ash and beige.

Prior to doing the honey I used a homemade camomile and lemon spray and am wondering if that was what made it so golden!? I guess my highlighted ends are so porous they'll soak anything up easily.

melikai

In terms of blending grey, I think ash tones will blend it better than yellow. Cassia can go very brassy but even if it does not, it is still a warm yellow.

The colours cassia can yield are yellow, yellow/orange (gold), and red, so the colours are not in the colour range you are after IMO.

melikai
August 29th, 2008, 05:07 PM
I think you're right... anyone need a packet of cassia?

I guess I'll stick with the honey as I think it will take me where I want to go.

Thanks for all the input ktani - you've put a lot of effort into my hair concerns and I appreciate it!

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 05:18 PM
I think you're right... anyone need a packet of cassia?

I guess I'll stick with the honey as I think it will take me where I want to go.

Thanks for all the input ktani - you've put a lot of effort into my hair concerns and I appreciate it!

melikai

My pleasure.

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 05:25 PM
melikai

I want to add the honey you used to the Successful Honeys List.

Could you please share the brand name and type of honey you used?

melikai
August 29th, 2008, 07:56 PM
Sure!
It was the Whole Foods brand, 365 Organic Wildflower Honey. I spent a ridiculous amount of time pondering over the honey section before I chose it!

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 08:06 PM
Sure!
It was the Whole Foods brand, 365 Organic Wildflower Honey. I spent a ridiculous amount of time pondering over the honey section before I chose it!

melikai

Thank you!

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 09:34 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

melikai - on previously hi-lighted blonde hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melekai - on the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
August 29th, 2008, 09:37 PM
The Successful Honeys List - honeys reported to work well in honey lightening recipes.

As you can see there are more brand names than types of honey - that does not matter - the brand is important too - different brands of clover honey for example have been reported to work differently.

Australia
Jarrah honey

Brazil
Bio21 orange blossom honey

Italy
black locust honey

North America
honey in bear shaped plastic bottle from Walmart

Billy Bee clover honey

Norway
Ekte honning honey

Poland
Raw wildflower honey

UK
Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys)

Sainsburys Basics brand honey

Waitrose Wildflower honey

U.S.
Aunt Sue's Raw All Natural honey

Hannaford Brand honey, in a bear bottle

Honey Bee clover honey

Hyvee brand honey

Laney brand alfalfa honey

Nature's Energy honey (Natures grocery store)

Ralph's brand pure clover honey

Really Raw brand honey (goldenrod, aster and wildflower)

raw, unpasteurized, blackberry honey, clover honey, orange blossom honey, tupelo honey, wildflower honey

Save Mart honey, in a bear bottle

Stater Brothers honey

Sue Bee clover honey

Target's Market Pantry honey (In a little bear bottle)

Trader Joe's 100% desert mesquite honey, clover blossom honey

Wegmans' brand Clover honey

Western Family Clover honey

Whole Foods 365 Organic Wildflower honey

ktani
August 30th, 2008, 06:34 AM
Alright so so far I've tried the honey lightening treatment twice. I did the 4 to 1 dilution with distilled water and also added a tablespoon of cardamon. Here are my results - let me know what you all think!

To be honest I don't notice much of a difference other than less yellowyness. The mix tastes good when it drips in your mouth though! :rolleyes:

(any waves after the second app are from a rope braid I had in earlier ;))

Picture heavy!

Before honey:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8682/hair2fg8.th.jpg (http://img209.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hair2fg8.jpg)


http://img365.imageshack.us/img365/9002/hair3dl0.th.jpg (http://img365.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hair3dl0.jpg)

After 1st application:

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7237/honeyhair12lt2.th.jpg (http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair12lt2.jpg)

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/8955/honeyhair17qe0.th.jpg (http://img387.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair17qe0.jpg)

After 2nd application:

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/1465/honeyhair21af0.th.jpg (http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair21af0.jpg)

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4889/honeyhair23lj3.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair23lj3.jpg)

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1/honeyhair26wu4.th.jpg (http://img187.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair26wu4.jpg)

An encore of melikai's results on previously hi-lighted hair, from yellow to ash tones, after 2 treatments of honey, distilled water and cardamom and the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

ktani
August 30th, 2008, 06:35 AM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil).
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey to 3/4 cup distilled water or x amout of honey to 4 times distilled water by weight.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to reach maximum strength (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

nayver
August 30th, 2008, 10:13 AM
Apparently, the first application to my roots didn't work :( Maybe I didn't prepare the mix correctly. I use one tablespoon of honey and four tablespoons of distilled water.

ktani
August 30th, 2008, 11:01 AM
nayver

Doing roots only can be tricky with honey lightening. Hair closer to the scalp dries faster and can be harder to keep very wet.

That is why a bathing or swim cap, kokuryu's idea is so brilliant IMO, for honey lightening. It fits snugly.

I recommend reapplying the treatment to the areas you want to concentrate on just before covering.

wintersun99 had a problem with her top layers drying during a treatment. She solved the problem and kept the areas wet by spraying them during and after application, just before covering her hair with a shower cap and hat.

Roots can be done with a tint or blush or pastry brush and kept wet with a bit of spraying before covering. I recommend that the rest of the hair be kept dry when doing roots only.

As to the correct 4 to 1 dilution, it is done by weight. You start with the honey.

1 tablespoon honey = 21 grams = .75 oz x 4 = 3 oz distilled water = 1/4 cup US or .23 cup Metric, required for your recipe.

I used the tables and calculator here.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

nayver
August 30th, 2008, 05:05 PM
I think I forgot the important part of keeping the hair wet!!! I'll try again with a plastic cap. Thanks again ktani.

ktani
August 30th, 2008, 06:22 PM
I think I forgot the important part of keeping the hair wet!!! I'll try again with a plastic cap. Thanks again ktani.

nayver

You are most welcome.

ktani
August 31st, 2008, 08:17 AM
The biggest problem people have reported recently, even with a good peroxide producing honey and the correct 4 to 1 dilution, has been keeping the hair wet enough for a treatment to work.

By the time the hair is covered after a honey lightening treatment is applied, some hair has dried.

I highly recommend wintersun99's method of keeping the hair wet during application. She kept some treatment in a spray bottle and reapplied it to the areas she was most concerned with while she finished applying the treatment to other areas.

It is important that the hair be fully saturated and wet before being covered. The hair does not need to be dripping but it does need to be completely wet with the treatment.

A treatment can be applied to dry or wet hair, depending on the areas one wants to cover and how one prefers to apply the treatment.

The plastic that covers the hair needs to be secure. Covering a shower cap with a hat is one option. A bathing or swim cap is another.

If one uses a plastic bag or saran (plastic wrap) it is very important that neither slip and allow the hair to dry in places.

The places that dry will not be lightened.

ktani
August 31st, 2008, 06:46 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
August 31st, 2008, 07:14 PM
Here are 2 different results with honey lightening on previously coloured blonde hair.

The first, with the 4 to 1 dilution and ground cinnamon, with conditioner (before distilled water was recommended) and the dilution was corrected. The results are very good, IMO.


1. brok3nwings - on brassy hair from and old semi and acv red/gold tones - 4 to 1 dilution and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98244&postcount=503

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=99995&postcount=516

brok3nwings - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98410&postcount=505



The second result is with the correct 4 to 1 dilution, ground cardamom, no conditioner and distilled water. I think that the results show how much better the correct dilution and distilled water can be (without conditioner) - the colour is more even and more ash.


2. melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melekai - on the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
September 1st, 2008, 09:57 AM
Honey lightening basics

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey to 3/4 cup distilled water or x amout of honey to 4 times distilled water by weight. Measure the honey first, convert to weight (grams, oz), then multiply x 4 to get the right amount of water. Here are pictures of results with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to reach maximum strength (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

plainjanegirl
September 1st, 2008, 04:18 PM
Can you leave a honey treatment on overnight?
Would it still lighten the hair and moisturize the hair?

ktani
September 1st, 2008, 04:26 PM
Can you leave a honey treatment on overnight?
Would it still lighten the hair and moisturize the hair?

plainjanegirl

You could but IMO, it is not only unnecessary (the recommended time is roughly an hour on the hair), there is more of a chance while you sleep, of the plastic slipping and parts of the hair drying.

If the hair dries while a treatment is on the hair, as per reports, it will not be lightened.

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 08:56 AM
The recommended time a honey lightening treatment is to be left on the hair with the new recipes is 1 hour.

Some people like to leave them on longer. This is not a problem, nor will the recipe stop working, from reports, if this is done.

Some feel that by leaving a recipe on longer, that the hair gets extra conditioning benefits.

The days though of leaving a honey lightening recipe on the hair overnight are IMO, over. That was done with the old recipes and dilutions, before I understood how long it takes for a honey to reach its maximum peroxide level with water (distilled is recommended because it is mineral free) and the correct 4 to 1 dilution. Conditioner is no longer recommended because it can interfere with honey lightening and it does not contain enough water to properly dilute honey.

I do not think it serves any purpose to leave a treatment on the hair that long (overnight) and as I have said, there is more chance that the plastic can slip, causing parts of the hair to dry and not have the possibility of lightening.

plainjanegirl
September 2nd, 2008, 12:46 PM
Now I don't use plastic ( I only tried a couple times and was disappointed). I just covered with a shower cap and a towel. But didn't I read somewhere on here that you can do a mist of honey and water...but you have to be sure to keep wetting and not let dry?

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 12:51 PM
Now I don't use plastic ( I only tried a couple times and was disappointed). I just covered with a shower cap and a towel. But didn't I read somewhere on here that you can do a mist of honey and water...but you have to be sure to keep wetting and not let dry?

plainjanegirl

Yes, you could do that too but you will need to keep the hair very wet for the entire hour.

The shower cap and towel is fine or a swim cap.

If your treatment was unsuccessful after a couple of times, I suggest trying different honey, if you followed the other recommendations. A different honey has made all the difference for others, according to reports.

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

melikai
September 2nd, 2008, 04:39 PM
I wanted to post my latest results with the honey lightening. This last time I didn't include the cardamom, did just the honey mix, and my results were MUCH more golden! My highlights went quite golden-orange. I can't believe what a difference the cardamom made!

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7823/honeyhair31xf4.th.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair31xf4.jpg)

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7522/honeyhair33vm8.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair33vm8.jpg)

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/208/honeyhair34km1.th.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair34km1.jpg)

And here is one under a different light source:

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/9071/haircolour2de5.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haircolour2de5.jpg)

That's some powerful stuff! I think I'll try doing only the cardamom and hope it takes out some of the orange tones.

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 04:52 PM
I wanted to post my latest results with the honey lightening. This last time I didn't include the cardamom, did just the honey mix, and my results were MUCH more golden! My highlights went quite golden-orange. I can't believe what a difference the cardamom made!

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/3711/honeyhair31pp0.th.jpg (http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair31pp0.jpg)

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/9295/honeyhair33ah0.th.jpg (http://img386.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair33ah0.jpg)

http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/3734/honeyhair34wp8.th.jpg (http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair34wp8.jpg)

And here is one under a different light source:

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/9071/haircolour2de5.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haircolour2de5.jpg)

That's some powerful stuff! I think I'll try doing only the cardamom and hope it takes out some of the orange tones.

melikai

Thank you for the post and the new pictures.

That is a very interesting result, IMO.

Honey has not been reported to add a colour of its own to hair, even dark honeys.

1. Did you use the same honey?

2. Have you used anything different between the last treatment and this, in terms of products even acv?

My hair used pick up colour from shampoos and conditioners that were not designed to deposit colour but had darker or different colours in them.

I do not think that this result is just from the lack of cardamom. Ground cardamom does add peroxide to a recipe but it does not contain as much peroxide as most honeys.

melikai
September 2nd, 2008, 05:00 PM
Hi ktani!

I didn't use anything different or new. I did in olive oil treatment in between, but I do those all the time. It's really strange....

I'm also adjusting the new pictures to the same tone as the old ones, so they're more accurate - I noticed there was some difference in the background wall colour.

*There - the ones up now are more accurate. Still seems much more gold/orange than the last time?

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 05:05 PM
Hi ktani!

I didn't use anything different or new. I did in olive oil treatment in between, but I do those all the time. It's really strange....

I'm also adjusting the new pictures to the same tone as the old ones, so they're more accurate - I noticed there was some difference in the background wall colour.

melakai

Olive oil is or can be yellow.

Try testing some of your olive oil on a piece white paper towel to see if it stains.

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 05:11 PM
I just made an addition to this post.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=237414&postcount=1964

The first rule of honey lightening is this. All ingredients of a recipe should be used at room temerature only, with no added heat.

melikai
September 2nd, 2008, 05:24 PM
melakai

Olive oil is or can be yellow.

Try testing some of your olive oil on a piece white paper towel to see if it stains.

Alright so I think that it may have been the olive oil in combination with my chamomile shampoo (which I used all the other times too, but I'm guessing) that tinted everything more golden. I'm still thinking of doing a cardamom-only treatment to see if it makes a difference.

Should I take down that last post in the meantime? I don't want to give inaccurate results if it wasn't the honey at all!

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 05:28 PM
Alright so I think that it may have been the olive oil in combination with my chamomile shampoo (which I used all the other times too, but I'm guessing) that tinted everything more golden. I'm still thinking of doing a cardamom-only treatment to see if it makes a difference.

Should I take down that last post in the meantime? I don't want to give inaccurate results if it wasn't the honey at all!

melakai

There is need to alter your post.

Just test the olive oil, please.

As for a cardamom only treatment, by all means try it but don't overdo the cardamom. It can be a sensitizer.

melikai
September 2nd, 2008, 05:37 PM
I did the test on papertowel for the olive oil and it is very very slightly yellow.

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 05:42 PM
I did the test on papertowel for the olive oil and it is very very slightly yellow.

melikai

Thank you. I think that on your hair, it would show up more so and it is notoriously difficult to wash out of hair.

Before you honey lightened, you were surprised at how yellow your hair had become.

I think that is your answer, especially as you say, that you do olive oil treatments all the time.

melikai
September 2nd, 2008, 05:54 PM
I agree. I'm amazed how much the slightest tint can effect my hair! I guess I need to watch more carefully what I put in it.
Thanks for helping me figure this out.

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 06:02 PM
I agree. I'm amazed how much the slightest tint can effect my hair! I guess I need to watch more carefully what I put in it.
Thanks for helping me figure this out.

melikai

You are most welcome.

After doing 5 Honey threads, this being the 5th, I have become a sort of results detective.

lynnala also thought that a honey rinse had darkened her hair. So she did not continue to use honey (as a conditioning rinse) and her hair continued to darken.

It turned out that her shampoo bars contain a fair amount of castor oil and castor oil is known to gradually darken hair.

In your case, the yellow was present in your hair pre honey lightening and returned just after another olive oil treatment.

That is why I ask questions and did not want you to alter your post.

I am after the real cause of things with results and I think that it is more interesting that everyone else gets to share in the discovery, as it goes along.

ktani
September 2nd, 2008, 06:36 PM
I wanted to post my latest results with the honey lightening. This last time I didn't include the cardamom, did just the honey mix, and my results were MUCH more golden! My highlights went quite golden-orange. I can't believe what a difference the cardamom made!

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7823/honeyhair31xf4.th.jpg (http://img156.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair31xf4.jpg)

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7522/honeyhair33vm8.th.jpg (http://img262.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair33vm8.jpg)

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/208/honeyhair34km1.th.jpg (http://img395.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeyhair34km1.jpg)

And here is one under a different light source:

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/9071/haircolour2de5.th.jpg (http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=haircolour2de5.jpg)

That's some powerful stuff! I think I'll try doing only the cardamom and hope it takes out some of the orange tones.

melakai

With the adjusted lighting, you hair does not appear as yellow as you first thought, IMO.

Just honey and water did leave your hair ash, perhaps not as ash as with cardamom though.

I think that if you change oils, perhaps try coconut oil instead, when solid it is white, there should be less of a tint difference in your colour.

MeMyselfandI
September 3rd, 2008, 09:58 AM
I would like to use some cinnamon with my honny/distilled water mixture.

Should I add the cinnamon when I first mix the honey and distilled water or just before I put it on my hair?

What is the ratio of cinnamon to water I should use?

ktani
September 3rd, 2008, 10:12 AM
I would like to use some cinnamon with my honny/distilled water mixture.

Should I add the cinnamon when I first mix the honey and distilled water or just before I put it on my hair?

What is the ratio of cinnamon to water I should use?

MeMyselfandI

When I tested cinnamon mixed with honey and water, I found that it is best mixed in, after the honey has been added. You get a smoother solution.

Everything should be mixed together at the same time, the honey being added to the distilled water first, IMO.

I suggest 1 tsp to 1 tablespoon of cinnamon for a recipe.

If you are using a small amount of distilled water, 3/4 cup (for use with 1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons) or less, with your 4 to 1 dilution, I think that 1 tsp to start, should be enough.

See how that goes first.

MeMyselfandI
September 3rd, 2008, 10:26 AM
Thanks ktani,

I appreciate your quick response.

ktani
September 3rd, 2008, 10:28 AM
Thanks ktani,

I appreciate your quick response.

You are very welcome.

ktani
September 3rd, 2008, 10:45 AM
One thing I recently added to the Honey Lightening Basics post, is the first rule of honey lightening, IMO.

No heat should be used with any honey lightening recipe ingredients at any time. Body heat does not count because it does not have a negative affect on hydrogen peroxide. All of the ingredients should be mixed at room temperature only.

From the questions I get asked, this is still confusing some people.

Honey Lightening Basics
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=237414&postcount=1964

For the new recipes with the correct 4 to 1 dilution, this rule still applies.

ktani
September 3rd, 2008, 02:45 PM
The basic honey lightening rules are:

1. No heat is to be used with any honey lightening ingredients at any time (body heat does not count). All ingredients should be mixed at room temperature only.

2. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water (distilled is recommended) to honey by weight. Weigh the honey or convert, e.g. 42.5 grams of honey = 2 tablespoons = 1/8 cup = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6oz = 12 tablespoons = 3/4 cup US, (1/2 cup Metric), distilled water needed for a treatment. Conversion tables and a calculator are in this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

3. The hair must be kept very wet both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim is recommended. Another option is to mist the hair with leftover treatment during the 1 recommended hour, that a treatment is on the hair.

These rules are based on successful honey lightening reports and research.

ktani
September 3rd, 2008, 05:33 PM
Canadian mushroom recall.
http://www.thestar.com/News/Canada/article/489611

ktani
September 4th, 2008, 06:23 AM
I have put links together in the first post of this thread, with quick reading options, so no one has to read the entire thread, to get the information they want (other than posting or pming me).

Pming me is welcome. I always reply.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

ktani
September 4th, 2008, 02:36 PM
Pictures of honey lightening

On blonde hair

firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution and after with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after 1 treatment - using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

ktani
September 4th, 2008, 02:39 PM
Pictures of honey lightening


On dark hair

Maluhia and Viviane - from an older Honey thread with the old dilution recipes
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

mellie - from an older Honey thread - on henndigoed hair (baq henna used once or twice) - the 4 to 1 dilution - no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

mellie - latest pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

nayver - on naturally black hair with faded hi-lights - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

GlennaGirl - on henndigoed hair ("Catherine's (tapdancinglizard) henna. The indigo was from her, too") - the 4 to 1 dilution with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with the old 4 to1 dilution, ground cinnamon and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119360&postcount=867

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 3 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176427&postcount=1583

LadyPolaris - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176471&postcount=1586

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176850&postcount=1602

wintersun99 - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=177909&postcount=1610

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

SeaPhoenix
September 5th, 2008, 03:28 AM
I've been giving this a go again, on the hopes maybe my hair will decide to cooperate for once. (It never really seemed to respond to the honey recipes before). I've already done 2 treatments with 3/4 cup distilled water and 2 tbsp of honey, left to sit for an hour before application, and then drenched my hair with it, and left it in for another hour (saran wrapped with towel wrapped over the plastic). I didn't notice any color shift with either of those two treatments.
I'm on treatment number three, this time adding in to the mix 1tsp of cinnamon, and 1/2 tbsp of EVOO.

I'm really hoping to see some sign of change, even if it's barely detectable... whether its on my henna portioned, or just the 4 inches or so of natural roots...
If not, I guess I'm just stuck with what I have, color wise... (unless I opt for chemicals, which I really would rather not do). :rolleyes:

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 06:19 AM
Hi there Ktani dear lady, I was reading the honey lightening thread a bit.

I will be trying this next week. I still have to wait for some meetings to be finished and don't want anything to go amiss with my hair.
I have done SMT's in the past with honey and it dried my hair terribly and made it very very flyaway. I am afraid of this happening now. However it will only be temporary I assume, so I have to do it when I don't really care what my hair looks like.

I will be buying honey this week. The thread seems very clear except in one area, rinsing it out. Must you wash your hair again to get it out? Can water only rinse it out properly? Should you put conditoner on afterwards or does it matter.
I am wondering this because I want to know if the shampoo or conditioner afterwards somehow will affect the previous process.

Since I had such drying effects with honey before, I am hoping to slather a ton of conditoner on afterwards but don't want to throw the process off kilter.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 06:24 AM
I've been giving this a go again, on the hopes maybe my hair will decide to cooperate for once. (It never really seemed to respond to the honey recipes before). I've already done 2 treatments with 3/4 cup distilled water and 2 tbsp of honey, left to sit for an hour before application, and then drenched my hair with it, and left it in for another hour (saran wrapped with towel wrapped over the plastic). I didn't notice any color shift with either of those two treatments.


I'm on treatment number three, this time adding in to the mix 1tsp of cinnamon, and 1/2 tbsp of EVOO.

I'm really hoping to see some sign of change, even if it's barely detectable... whether its on my henna portioned, or just the 4 inches or so of natural roots...
If not, I guess I'm just stuck with what I have, color wise... (unless I opt for chemicals, which I really would rather not do). :rolleyes:

SeaPhoenix

It sounds like your method is just fine.

If you have had no colour shift twice now, I think that you need to try a different honey. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.

The Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

It may be difficult to find a honey from the list where you are. In the information below, the key word is blend. Jarrah honey may be an option for you, depending on the price of the honey and shipping costs.

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys and blends with those honeys.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1266

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 06:39 AM
Hi there Ktani dear lady, I was reading the honey lightening thread a bit.

I will be trying this next week. I still have to wait for some meetings to be finished and don't want anything to go amiss with my hair.
I have done SMT's in the past with honey and it dried my hair terribly and made it very very flyaway. I am afraid of this happening now. However it will only be temporary I assume, so I have to do it when I don't really care what my hair looks like.

I will be buying honey this week. The thread seems very clear except in one area, rinsing it out. Must you wash your hair again to get it out? Can water only rinse it out properly? Should you put conditoner on afterwards or does it matter.
I am wondering this because I want to know if the shampoo or conditioner afterwards somehow will affect the previous process.

Since I had such drying effects with honey before, I am hoping to slather a ton of conditoner on afterwards but don't want to throw the process off kilter.

Hi jessie

The dryness you are talking about sounds like a typical honey residue problem. That can be resolved with a vinegar rinse but most often it has been reported to be best resolved with shampoo. Unfortunately, I cannot predict which honeys leave more residue than others.

One way around this might be to try honey lightening when you are ready to use shampoo. A treatment can be rinsed off and conditioner might not be necessary but you might need to shampoo following the treatment, if you get residue.

I suggest not using the same brand of honey that you used before for sure.

Canadian honey from research sources, tends in general, to have good peroxide levels but I am including the honey information for you below.

Alley Cat reported excellent results with Jarrah honey, but I would try Canadian honey first. Canada number 1 Blend comes in a dark version.

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1266

The Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...ount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys and blends with those honeys.

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 06:57 AM
I just bought some unpasteurized local honey which was packaged 4 weeks ago. I wonder if that will work?

So most people do shampoo afterwards then? Ktani, if you have ever seen my hair after a shampoo, you would know why I want to condition, lol. It looks like a fright wig. This is why I love WO so much. Washing makes every single one of my hairs separate and STAND right up. No conditioner = finger in the socket look.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 07:03 AM
jessie

I know that you generally prefer to use WO on your hair.

I suggest collecting loose hair for a test strands. Try the honey treatment on a cleaned strand and an uncleaned one, that are very wet and tightly wrapped in saran wrap to keep them very wet for an hour.

Just rinse them and see what they feel like afterward. This will also give you an idea of possible lightening results.

If a honey leaves residue, or does not lighten, you can save it for eating. It is not necessary to buy expensive honey. The cheap honeys, raw and pasteurized, have been reported to work equally well.

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 07:05 AM
jessie

I know that you generally prefer to use WO on your hair.

I suggest collecting loose hair for a test strands. Try the honey treatment on a cleaned strand and an uncleaned one, that are very wet and tightly wrapped in saran wrap to keep them very wet for an hour.

Just rinse them and see what they feel like afterward. This will also give you an idea of possible lightening results.

If a honey leaves residue, or does not lighten, you can save it for eating.

For a second there I thought you meant saving the hair for eating :bigeyes: You honey users are strange people. LOL

Good idea, I'll save my hair this week. Ew, that sounds creepy.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 07:10 AM
For a second there I thought you meant saving the hair for eating :bigeyes: You honey users are strange people. LOL

Good idea, I'll save my hair this week. Ew, that sounds creepy.

LOL, no, no one has been reported to eat their honeyed hair.

You most definitely can use conditioner following a honey lightening treatment.

I should have been more clear that when people have used shampoo to remove residue, that is not all they do. Some have used conditioner to follow the shampoo but not all do that. There are those who do not use conditioner in their regular routine.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 07:29 AM
I just bought some unpasteurized local honey which was packaged 4 weeks ago. I wonder if that will work?

jessie

It is not about raw honey or how fresh it is. The plant source determines a honey's peroxide level.

Both raw and pasteurized honeys have been reported to leave residue.

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 07:35 AM
So is it like clover honey or alfalfa honey that you are referring to? Those are the two widely found ones here. The source?

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 07:41 AM
So is it like clover honey or alfalfa honey that you are referring to? Those are the two widely found ones here. The source?

jessie

By source, I mean plant. Both clover and alfalfa honeys have been reported to work well for honey lightening.

mellie prefers alfalfa but reported that a recent new alfalfa honey did not work for her. She previously reported that a clover honey she used did not work for her.

There are different species of plants like alfalfa and clover that can be and are found in honey.

The beekeepers set the hives down in fields that have the flowering plants they want the bees to go to.

Different species bloom at different times.

I think from reports on Canadian honey, that you should be fine with what you bought, unless it is on the avoid list.

"Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys and blends with those honeys."

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 07:49 AM
jessie

By source, I mean plant. Both clover and alfalfa honeys have been reported to work well for honey lightening.

mellie prefers alfalfa but reported that a recent new alfalfa honey did not work for her. She previously reported that a clover honey she used did not work for her.

There are different species of plants like alfalfa and clover that can be and are found in honey.

The beekeepers set the hives down in fields that have the flowering plants they want the bees to go to.

Different species bloom at different times.

I think from reports on Canadian honey, that you should be fine with what you bought, unless it is on the avoid list.

"Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys and blends with those honeys."

All clear on that point now, thank you.

Next question (and you knew there would be one:D)

Where on the list is the Canadian honey brands? I just looked at it and did not see it. Have I been awake too long? Must I go to sleep now? Am I asking too many questions? :silly:;)

FrannyG
September 5th, 2008, 07:58 AM
Jessie58, I know that a lot of people go to the health food store to get organic honey and so forth, but I had great success with plain old Billy Bee clover honey.

I know Ktani will have a better answer for you. I really just wanted to say hi. :)

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 08:01 AM
All clear on that point now, thank you.

Next question (and you knew there would be one:D)

Where on the list is the Canadian honey brands? I just looked at it and did not see it. Have I been awake too long? Must I go to sleep now? Am I asking too many questions? :silly:;)

jessie

No, you are not asking too many questions. I am glad to help.

The Canadian honeys are under North America because brands like Billy Bee are sold here and in the US.

I think that the Walmart honey might be from Canada or the US. I made the list from reports and there have not been many Canadian reports.

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 08:05 AM
Jessie58, I know that a lot of people go to the health food store to get organic honey and so forth, but I had great success with plain old Billy Bee clover honey.

I know Ktani will have a better answer for you. I really just wanted to say hi. :)

Thanks Franny, hello. I want to do it right because if I don't properly get the lightening effects I am risking the horrible honey hair dryness for nothing. That is my concern.

I know that Ktani is on the case, so it's all good. :)

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 08:08 AM
jessie

Thank you.

I did not know why honey caused dryness for people last year but I do now. From all of the reports on dryness, the problem has been reported to be temporary, if shampoo is used, or in some cases, a vinegar rinse.

I actually found the answer here on the boards.

In a thread, someone reported that honey left a residue on their hair when they conditioned with it and their hair felt dry.

That got me thinking and when the Honey lightening threads progressed, people reported that they solved the same problem with shampooing.

The dryness problem had been reported in the original Honey thread but it took a while before I put it all together.

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 08:10 AM
D'oh! :doh:North America. Yup, that's where I live. I'm not too bright in the early morning.

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 08:14 AM
I'll hatch a plan this week and post here when I'm ready.
I think I will use the vinegar rinse after all.


I was thinking about photos too. I'd like to get the best representation so I want to take pictures in the same place, outdoors in the natural light at the same time of day with the same light conditions. For example a very sunny day/cloudy/overcast/ day will have to be duplicated to get a real comparison shot.

I'm thinking I will use the olive oil as the booster and then condition it out rather than shampoo, then use vinegar rinse. Anyway I'll get back to this thread when I can do this. Thanks Ktani.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 08:23 AM
I'll hatch a plan this week and post here when I'm ready.
I think I will use the vinegar rinse after all.


I was thinking about photos too. I'd like to get the best representation so I want to take pictures in the same place, outdoors in the natural light at the same time of day with the same light conditions. For example a very sunny day/cloudy/overcast/ day will have to be duplicated to get a real comparison shot.

I'm thinking I will use the olive oil as the booster and then condition it out rather than shampoo, then use vinegar rinse. Anyway I'll get back to this thread when I can do this. Thanks Ktani.

Jessie

Your plan sounds good but shampoo has been reported to remove honey residue when a vinegar rinse was not successful, just so you know.

It depends on how much residue a honey can leave behind.

Some people have reported no problems with honey residue at all. In fact, from most reports, it is not an issue.

jessie58
September 5th, 2008, 08:26 AM
Jessie

Your plan sounds good but shampoo has been reported to remove honey residue when a vinegar rinse was not successful, just so you know.

It depends on how much residue a honey can leave behind.

Some people have reported no problems with honey residue at all. In fact, from most reports, it is not an issue.

Dang it all, I try to avoid shampoo like the plague, especially on my length. Well there's only one way to find out. BTW, has anybody reported using conditioner only.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 08:29 AM
D'oh! :doh:North America. Yup, that's where I live. I'm not too bright in the early morning.

jessie

Please don't be so hard on yourself. I had to decide where to put Canadian honey on the Successful Honeys List, because when I called Billy Bee, they said that they were expanding into the US with their product.

Walmart is here too, so with Canadian reports being scarce, it made sense to me to put those honeys into a broader category.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 08:47 AM
Dang it all, I try to avoid shampoo like the plague, especially on my length. Well there's only one way to find out. BTW, has anybody reported using conditioner only.

jessie

I have suggested that a honey lightening treatment can be CO'd out and I have not heard back in reports that this was unsuccessful.

No one has specifically mentioned it.

IMO, it definitely is an option.

I always ask about the condition of the hair following a honey lightening treatment.

I usually hear about problems then, in the replies.

FrannyG
September 5th, 2008, 08:48 AM
Dang it all, I try to avoid shampoo like the plague, especially on my length. Well there's only one way to find out. BTW, has anybody reported using conditioner only.

I used the old method with honey and conditioner for lightening, but I never did use shampoo. I used conditioner only to rinse out any honey residue, and I never had a problem with dryness at all.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 08:51 AM
I used the old method with honey and conditioner for lightening, but I never did use shampoo. I used conditioner only to rinse out any honey residue, and I never had a problem with dryness at all.

FrannyG

Thank you.

Your treatment was done before the 4 to 1 dilution was thought about and the new recipes were developed.

Honey residue as a problem is the exception, rather than the rule, from all of the honey lightening reports in total, but it is something to be considered, IMO.

Isabellla
September 5th, 2008, 04:45 PM
Has anyone tried Manuka honey? The only blends that I can find where I live is clover blends which are quite light.

ktani
September 5th, 2008, 04:52 PM
Has anyone tried Manuka honey? The only blends that I can find where I live is clover blends which are quite light.

Isabellla

I think that Alley Cat used Manuka honey at one point, before she tried Jarrah honey. I believe that it worked well for her. Not all Manuka honeys are very expensive. I do not think that it is necessary to spend a lot of money on a honey for honey lightening. The cheapest honeys have been reported to work well.

The honey you use doesn't have to be dark. It just has to produce a good level of peroxide for honey lightening. Not all of the honeys on The Successful Honeys List are dark in colour. A number of them are fairly light coloured clover honeys.

I recommend that if you cannot find a honey on the list, that you try a dark coloured honey blend, but you can try a light coloured clover honey blend as well.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 07:25 AM
Here are examples of honey lightening on hennaed and henndigoed hair.

I used 2 examples with henndigo - the first is after 2 henndigo treatments, the 2nd on multiple henndigo treatments.

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening and as you can see from bizzarogirl's 2nd treatment, her henna layers started to lighten, losing the burgundy colour, when much less conditioner was used and was replaced by water.

On both henndigoed and hennaed hair, the correct 4 to 1 dilution with distilled water, yielded faster, better results than previous recipes.

Honey lightening on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227367&postcount=1901

Honey lightening on hennaed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227385&postcount=1902

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 07:52 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 07:54 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 05:29 PM
Has anyone tried manuka honey? If it was mentioned already I'm sorry. I don't remember seeing it, though.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 05:48 PM
Isabellla

I think that Alley Cat used Manuka honey at one point, before she tried Jarrah honey. I believe that it worked well for her. Not all Manuka honeys are very expensive. I do not think that it is necessary to spend a lot of money on a honey for honey lightening. The cheapest honeys have been reported to work well.

The honey you use doesn't have to be dark. It just has to produce a good level of peroxide for honey lightening. Not all of the honeys on The Successful Honeys List are dark in colour. A number of them are fairly light coloured clover honeys.

I recommend that if you cannot find a honey on the list, that you try a dark coloured honey blend, but you can try a light coloured clover honey blend as well.

Spun

I answered that question here.

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 05:58 PM
Spun

I answered that question here.
Ah! Thank you! I plan on trying it tonight or tomorrow. I've tried three different honeys now with no success. I've even tried with cardamom. I've tried each three times and am starting to get frustrated :mad:. Hopefully this one will work.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 06:01 PM
Ah! Thank you! I plan on trying it tonight or tomorrow. I've tried three different honeys now with no success. I've even tried with cardamom. I've tried each three times and am starting to get frustrated :mad:. Hopefully this one will work.

Do you want to go over what you are doing? It might help if you give the details. There may be something else that you are doing that needs adjusting.

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 06:05 PM
Do you want to go over what you are doing? It might help if you give the details. There may be something else that you are doing that needs adjusting.
I've been doing the 4:1 with honey and water and a tsp-tbsp of cinnamon or cardamom (I've also tried with half of each) and a tbsp of EVOO. I leave it on for 90 to 120 mins.
I wash every 2 to 3 days using bs/acv, but when I do the honey treatment I use cone free 'poo and conditioner otherwise I can't get the cinnamon and/or cardamom out at all.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! :confused:

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 06:06 PM
I've been doing the 4:1 with honey and water and a tsp-tbsp of cinnamon or cardamom (I've also tried with half of each) and a tbsp of EVOO. I leave it on for 90 to 120 mins.
I wash every 2 to 3 days using bs/acv, but when I do the honey treatment I use cone free 'poo and conditioner otherwise I can't get the cinnamon and/or cardamom out at all.
Any help would be greatly appreciated! :confused:
Sorry to be clear 4:1 with water and honey.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 06:08 PM
Sorry to be clear 4:1 with water and honey.

Ok.

Step by step.

How do you measure the honey? What kind of water?

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 06:10 PM
Ok.

Step by step.

How do you measure the honey? What kind of water?
Two tbsp of honey and 3/4 cups of distilled water.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 06:13 PM
Two tbsp of honey and 3/4 cups of distilled water.


Perfect.

What about your method. Is your hair completely wet when you cover it and kept wet during the time the treatment is on your hair?
What do you cover your hair with?

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 06:17 PM
Perfect.

What about your method. Is your hair completely wet when you cover it and kept wet during the time the treatment is on your hair?
What do you cover your hair with?
I put it all in a bottle and shake it then pour it over my head over the sink and let my ends absorb whatever is left in the sink so it's soaking. I then twist it up on the top of my head and wrap a plastic bag around it tightly and place a tight fitted winter hat over top of it all. When I take it all off it's still fairly wet to the touch. I still feel like I must be doing something wrong, though. :o

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 06:27 PM
I put it all in a bottle and shake it then pour it over my head over the sink and let my ends absorb whatever is left in the sink so it's soaking. I then twist it up on the top of my head and wrap a plastic bag around it tightly and place a tight fitted winter hat over top of it all. When I take it all off it's still fairly wet to the touch. I still feel like I must be doing something wrong, though. :o

It sounds like your hair is not really getting all that saturated.

I know that you think it might be but I think that most of it is going into the sink and you ends get the wettest. When you then twist up your hair it is wet but I think that it could be wetter.

Try using a spray bottle to get the hair thoroughly wet in sections.

wintersun99 also thought she was getting her hair thoroughly wet at one point but was not getting even coverage.

When I start pouring catnip tea on my hair in the shower, I use a little bit at a time, poured into my hand and apply it to my hair. I need to repeat that all over and hold it to my hair as I do, as it will drip off.

I am not suggesting that you follow my method. I am only saying that I do not believe that you hair is getting as completely saturated as it needs to be.

I would also keep some treatment aside, until the end of application, to mist on after you have pinned your hair up before covering.

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 06:30 PM
It sounds like your hair is not really getting all that saturated.

I know that you think it might be but I think that most of it is going into the sink and you ends get the wettest. When you then twist up your hair it is wet but I think that it could be wetter.

Try using a spray bottle to get the hair thoroughly wet in sections.

wintersun99 also thought she was getting her hair thoeoughly wet at one point but was not getting even coverage.

When I start pouring catnip tea on my hair in the shower, I use a little bit at a time, pouredinto my hand and apply it to my hair. I need to repeat that all over and hold it to my hair as I do, as it will drip off.

I am not suggesting that you follow my method. I am only saying that I do not believe that you hair is getting as completely saturated as it needs to be.

I would also keep some treatment aside until the end of application to mist on after you have pinned your hair up before covering.
When I get it all in my ends I squeeze the ends all over my scalp again, but I'll try the spray bottle.
I'm really hoping to have better success with the manuka. I'd to take the chemical route, but my roots are really bothering me.
Thanks so much for your help. :)

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 06:35 PM
When I get it all in my ends I squeeze the ends all over my scalp again, but I'll try the spray bottle.
I'm really hoping to have better success with the manuka. I'd to take the chemical route, but my roots are really bothering me.
Thanks so much for your help. :)

You are most welcome.

I really think that is the problem with your application, especially the roots. Hair closest to the roots dries fastest because of body heat.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 06:48 PM
Spun

When I have done my catnip treatment by pouring catnip through my hair, thinking that I was being thorough, the inner areas were not coloured or conditiond well, in comparison to the way I do it now in sections.

I was not getting even coverage even though I thought that I was getting all of my hair saturated.

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 06:49 PM
When I get it all in my ends I squeeze the ends all over my scalp again, but I'll try the spray bottle.
I'm really hoping to have better success with the manuka. I'd to take the chemical route, but my roots are really bothering me.
Thanks so much for your help. :)
Sorry I meant I'd rather not use chemicals. Apparently I'm having trouble typing today! lol
And oddly enough I just got a comment on the hair at my temples looking a little lighter (without them knowing I've been trying to lighten).
Maybe I'm just not seeing it? I've been taking pictures though and they look relatively the same. Odd.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 06:55 PM
Spun

What is your starting colour?

No worries about your typing, lol.

I edit constantly even after rereading, thinking I have been clear the first time.

You might well have some lightening from what you have been doing.

Take some pictures if you can. Sometimes it helps to have others see what you may have gotten used to seeing.

Spun
September 6th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Spun

What is your starting colour?

No worries about your typing, lol.

I edit constantly even after rereading, thinking I have been clear the first time.

You might well have some lightening from what you have been doing.

Take some pictures if you can. Sometimes it helps to have others see what you may have gotten used to seeing.

My starting is a light brown although I've been told it's a dark blonde (probably right). I guess I'm not sure lol. I wonder it if would still work without the cardamom or cinnamon since that won't spray through a spray bottle.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 07:03 PM
Spun

Have you looked at these? kokuryu wore a swim cap to cover her hair.

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 07:10 PM
Spun

You can also do a mix of applications.

Apply the mix with an application brush on certain areas.

Use a spray bottle with a wide nozzle.

Pour some of the treatment onto your hair.

There are different ways to apply a treatment.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 10:05 PM
The basic honey lightening rules are:

1. No heat is to be used with any honey lightening ingredients at any time (body heat does not count). All ingredients should be mixed at room temperature only.

2. The correct 4 to 1 dilution is 4 x the amount of water (distilled is recommended) to honey by weight. Weigh the honey or convert, e.g. 42.5 grams of honey = 2 tablespoons = 1/8 cup = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6oz = 3/4 cup US, distilled water needed for a treatment. Conversion tables and a calculator are in this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

3. The hair must be kept very wet both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair. A hat can be used to secure a shower cap, plastic bag/wrap, or a swim cap worn (all recommended). Another option is to mist the hair with leftover treatment during the 1 recommended hour, that a treatment is on the hair.

These rules are based on successful honey lightening reports and research.

ktani
September 6th, 2008, 10:06 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the correct 4 to 1 dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc. (weight conversion 1 g = 1 ml)
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

Note: A treatment can also be applied to wet hair.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (a must) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

melikai
September 7th, 2008, 12:47 AM
I'm not sure if this would make any difference, but since my recent olive oil experience, I'm wondering if the addition of olive oil (or any oil) could sort of contradict the lightening process? For some reason it sticks out to me as a possibility.

GoldenRed
September 7th, 2008, 01:25 AM
Honey as a lightener...That's different!

ktani
September 7th, 2008, 01:45 AM
I'm not sure if this would make any difference, but since my recent olive oil experience, I'm wondering if the addition of olive oil (or any oil) could sort of contradict the lightening process? For some reason it sticks out to me as a possibility.

Neither extra virgin olive oil nor coconut oil has been reported to add colour to hair during a honey lightening treatment.

They both have a peroxide level.

Used undiluted as a treatment, they might stain hair, as yellow olive oil did for you (white coconut oil would not).

ktani
September 7th, 2008, 01:47 AM
Honey as a lightener...That's different!

Different but it has been reported to work beautifully and without damaging hair.

ktani
September 7th, 2008, 09:27 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
September 7th, 2008, 09:28 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
September 7th, 2008, 10:07 AM
Information I posted elsewhere on pH.

pH and shampoo Note: From everything I have read, conventional conditioners on the market are acidic. They are designed to close the hair cuticle, as well as condition.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=258510&postcount=1293

pH and skin
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=258601&postcount=1294

The importance of maintaining an acidic pH on skin
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=258625&postcount=1295

The pH of foods
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html

pH test strips - there are different kinds
http://www.indigo.com/test-strips/pH-test-strips.html

ktani
September 7th, 2008, 08:59 PM
Pictures of honey lightening

On blonde hair

firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution and after with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after 1 treatment - using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

Jorchet
September 8th, 2008, 04:41 AM
Hi! I really really want to try this! I don't know what it takes me so long! grrrrr!!! I think I'm going to try in a strand only just to make sure I get the results I want.

Does hair have to be clean/dirty/freshly washed/wet?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/suspiro-1.gif I think I'll never get around to trying the lightening treatment ever!

espressokatzi
September 8th, 2008, 05:52 AM
I tried the lightening yesterday on my actually medium ashy-blonde hair that I have hennaed dark blonde-red for a while and I now really want to get rid of the dark, brassy tone!

So I applied the honey/water mixture (that I let sit one hour and added 1tbs cardamom and cinnamon before) to my shampooed, damp hair and left it on for an hour.
The dripping was really quite annoying, I'll try to apply it after the day I washed to dry hair, I hope that helps.
Though, do you think the lightening still works if I add locus bean gum to make the use more comfortable? Does that make sense?

Unfortunetely I cannot really see a real difference so far, I'll have to be patient and do it more often, yes.. ;)

ktani
September 8th, 2008, 07:09 AM
I tried the lightening yesterday on my actually medium ashy-blonde hair that I have hennaed dark blonde-red for a while and I now really want to get rid of the dark, brassy tone!

So I applied the honey/water mixture (that I let sit one hour and added 1tbs cardamom and cinnamon before) to my shampooed, damp hair and left it on for an hour.
The dripping was really quite annoying, I'll try to apply it after the day I washed to dry hair, I hope that helps.
Though, do you think the lightening still works if I add locus bean gum to make the use more comfortable? Does that make sense?

Unfortunetely I cannot really see a real difference so far, I'll have to be patient and do it more often, yes.. ;)

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

Locust bean gum is not recommended. It is not compatible with hydrogen peroxide. Most thickeners are not. I have researched that option.

How wet was your hair during the treatment? Was it pinned up and covered securely?

Try applying the treatment in sections with a hair colour application bottle, starting at the roots, section by section. You can also apply the treatment with a tint, blush or pastry brush. Keep some of the treatment in a spray bottle with a wide nozze, so that you can apply it to the hair after application, before covering, to make sure that all of the hair is very wet before pinning up and covering. The hair does not need to be dripping, but it does need to be very wet. The treatment can also be applied to wet hair.

The biggest reported problem lately, has been that the hair has not been thoroughly saturated, and kept very wet during the time that a treatment has been on the hair.

Wearing a swim cap is an excellent way to ensure that. Wearing a hat over a shower cap is another.

wintersun99 had problems with her application, which she solved with excellent results.

wintersun99 - on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
September 8th, 2008, 07:59 AM
Hi! I really really want to try this! I don't know what it takes me so long! grrrrr!!! I think I'm going to try in a strand only just to make sure I get the results I want.

Does hair have to be clean/dirty/freshly washed/wet?

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/suspiro-1.gif I think I'll never get around to trying the lightening treatment ever!

Here are some links to help you out while you decide.

Start Here with the basics, in this link.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=237414&postcount=1964

Basic honey lightening rules
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=254798&postcount=2105

"The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. Plastic ensures that the hair is out of the way and that most of the drips are contained. The hair must be kept completely wet during the time that the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a hat over a shower cap to keep it secure or wearing a swim cap is recommended."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

This is a shortened version of the post in the link above.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628

wintersun99
September 8th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Popping in for another update...

A Reminder - this is my hair at the start - fresh from a cut after severly damaging it with bleach - back in Oct. '07 - Nearly Black from Henna+Indigo in the 2-step method.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/009.jpg

In July '08
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/006.jpg

In Sept. '08
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/014.jpg

I had to cut quite a bit of the remaining damage (again) just before this picture was taken, so the problem I was having in lightening the Indigo on the ends has been rectified, by cutting it off. This picture also shows what Buxus looks like over Henna... for me, no change. In fact, can't really see a change from July to Sept.

*I haven't been applying the Honey mixture as much as I was up to July. I am now only using it once a week, but still using the same mixture in the 4:1 ratio*

ETA: yikes, large pictures :o

ktani
September 8th, 2008, 12:09 PM
Popping in for another update...

A Reminder - this is my hair at the start - fresh from a cut after severly damaging it with bleach - back in Oct. '07 - Nearly Black from Henna+Indigo in the 2-step method.
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/009.jpg

In July '08
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/006.jpg

In Sept. '08
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/014.jpg

I had to cut quite a bit of the remaining damage (again) just before this picture was taken, so the problem I was having in lightening the Indigo on the ends has been rectified, by cutting it off. This picture also shows what Buxus looks like over Henna... for me, no change. In fact, can't really see a change from July to Sept.

*I haven't been applying the Honey mixture as much as I was up to July. I am now only using it once a week, but still using the same mixture in the 4:1 ratio*

ETA: yikes, large pictures :o

Great haircut!

Buxus over henna darkens it doesn't it?

I can really see how much lighter your hair has gotten underneath the buxus.

Between July and September, you changed honeys, corrected the 4 to 1 dilution (you were using less water before) and changed your method (you were not getting and keeping the top layers wet during and after application of the treatment, before covering your hair with plastic).

The difference in lightening with the changes was more evident in your last set of pictures, before you used more of the buxus.

I am sorry that those pictures are currently not available.

wintersun99
September 8th, 2008, 12:15 PM
Buxus was supposed to darken it (at least, Mellie had great success) but in my case, I didn't get a color change. If it looks a tad darker, it's because I oiled it, but the color (to me) seems the same from July to Sept. :hmm:

I suppose I'm going to have to step up the applications again... 1x a week doesn't seem to be working as well. I also don't really like the new honey, I will probably go back to the Nature's Brand. I feel like this newer honey is leaving residue.

ETA: oops, we posted at the same time... Yep, the outer layers are stubbornly holding onto the remaining Indigo, the underlayers are much more forgiving and lightening much faster. Also the root area is much more red than brown.

ktani
September 8th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Buxus was supposed to darken it (at least, Mellie had great success) but in my case, I didn't get a color change. If it looks a tad darker, it's because I oiled it, but the color (to me) seems the same from July to Sept. :hmm:

I suppose I'm going to have to step up the applications again... 1x a week doesn't seem to be working as well. I also don't really like the new honey, I will probably go back to the Nature's Brand. I feel like this newer honey is leaving residue.

ETA: oops, we posted at the same time... Yep, the outer layers are stubbornly holding onto the remaining Indigo, the underlayers are much more forgiving and lightening much faster. Also the root area is much more red than brown.

I am going to suggest 2 things.

If you oil the top layers, or use anything on your hair after you wash and condition, try washing your hair first before the treatment and CO'ing the treatment out.

If the new honey leaves a residue, try the old one first, then a new one if that one does not work with the corrected dilution and your new method.

I think that the buxus has done something, I am not sure what.

wintersun99
September 8th, 2008, 02:09 PM
I am going to suggest 2 things.

If you oil the top layers, or use anything on your hair after you wash and condition, try washing your hair first before the treatment and CO'ing the treatment out.

If the new honey leaves a residue, try the old one first, then a new one if that one does not work with the corrected dilution and your new method.

I think that the buxus has done something, I am not sure what.

I have always applied the honey treatment to freshly washed, damp hair and then rinse followed with ACV.

ktani
September 8th, 2008, 02:15 PM
I have always applied the honey treatment to freshly washed, damp hair and then rinse followed with ACV.

Unfortunately with some honeys, acv has not been reported to be enough to remove residue. Shampoo has been reported to be better for that.

Ok, I am getting a better picture of your routine. Thank you.

wintersun99
September 8th, 2008, 02:17 PM
Ah, that I didn't know. I guess I thought that shampoo'ing after the treatment would minimize the conditioning aspects of it (which I love)...

ktani
September 8th, 2008, 02:36 PM
Ah, that I didn't know. I guess I thought that shampoo'ing after the treatment would minimize the conditioning aspects of it (which I love)...

You do not have to shampoo right away if the acv does not work. It depends on how much residue there is and how your hair feels.

ktani
September 8th, 2008, 11:02 PM
The basic honey lightening rules are:

1. No heat is to be used with any honey lightening ingredients at any time (body heat does not count). All ingredients should be mixed at room temperature only.

2. The correct 4 to 1 dilution is 4 x the amount of water (distilled is recommended) to honey by weight. Weigh the honey or convert, e.g. 42.5 grams of honey = 2 tablespoons = 1/8 cup = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6oz = 3/4 cup US, distilled water needed for a treatment. Conversion tables and a calculator are in this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

3. The hair must be kept very wet both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair. A hat can be used to secure a shower cap, plastic bag/wrap, or a swim cap worn (all recommended). Another option is to mist the hair with leftover treatment during the 1 recommended hour, that a treatment is on the hair.

These rules are based on successful honey lightening reports and research.

ktani
September 8th, 2008, 11:04 PM
Honey lightening basics

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat. Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey to 3/4 cup distilled water or x amout of honey to 4 times distilled water by weight. Measure the honey first, convert to weight (grams, oz), then multiply x 4 to get the right amount of water. Here are pictures of results with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to reach maximum strength (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
September 9th, 2008, 07:16 AM
An interesting article IMO, by P&G, on hair pigmentation.
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/hair-color1.html

Here is another on hair lightening.
"Hydrogen peroxide .... an oxidizing chemical that bleaches the natural pigments in human hair."
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Chem_p020.shtml

ktani
September 9th, 2008, 07:49 AM
This is most interesting, IMO.

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour and the older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
September 9th, 2008, 10:58 AM
When hair is damaged, it cannont hold onto added colour as well as healthy hair. This may also explain why conventional peroxide can lighten certain coloured hair faster, aside from it being stronger, than the peroxide in honey lightening. Conventional peroxide starts to damage cells from the DNA level on out and the damage has been reported to not be discernable on hair, until the hair is so badly damaged, that it needs to be cut off.

Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair.

".... the colour fastness properties of .... colored hair under different colour fastness testing conditions were getting worse with respect to the increasing degree of damaging treatment."
http://www.springerlink.com/content/c726552n05741206/

Spun
September 9th, 2008, 03:42 PM
Interesting. I was wondering if the thickness of the hair would have anything to do with the outcome.

ktani
September 9th, 2008, 03:49 PM
Interesting. I was wondering if the thickness of the hair would have anything to do with the outcome.

They are 2 different things, depending on how you define thickness, the number of hair folicles or the diameter/type of hair shaft.

What the articles means to me, is that the outcome would be influenced by the diameter/type of hair shaft, plus the natural pigments of the hair itself, plus size and the ratio of the added pigments in question.

To put it simply, people with coarse textured hair, which has more natural pigment and a greater ability to contain added colour, are more likely to require more honey lightening treatments than others. It also depends though on factors like as how much added colour there is, their natural colour and the type of added colour, as well as the result of the added colour.

Someone who has only done 2 henndigoes on finer textured hair, that did not go dark, would be able to honey lighten with a greater chance of success, faster than someone with multiple henndigoes on coarser, naturally dark hair, that had gone very dark, IMO.

bizarrogirl is a good example of the former and wintersun99 IMO, is a good example of the latter.

Spun
September 9th, 2008, 04:57 PM
I tried it again the other night with the manuka and I see very slight results and only under direct light. I even reapplied it three times over a 2 hour time span. Perhaps my hair is extra stubborn.

ktani
September 9th, 2008, 05:04 PM
I tried it again the other night with the manuka and I see very slight results and only under direct light. I even reapplied it three times over a 2 hour time span. Perhaps my hair is extra stubborn.

Is your hair very thick, as in lots of it?

Maybe you need to increase the recipe size to 1/4 cup of honey or 4 tablesoons to 3/4 cup distilled water.

Spun
September 9th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Is your hair very thick, as in lots of it?

Maybe you need to increase the recipe size to 1/4 cup of honey or 4 tablesoons to 3/4 cup distilled water.
Yes, it's very thick.
I thought it wasn't as effective if it wasn't diluted enough?

ktani
September 9th, 2008, 05:14 PM
Yes, it's very thick.
I thought it wasn't as effective if it wasn't diluted enough?

It is the same dilution, just more of it. You mentioned that someone noticed that the sides of your hair looked lighter.

Perhaps you just need more solution to get even coverage.

What is the texture of your hair?

Now that I know that can make a difference, it would mean that if your hair is course, that you would have more natural pigment to lighten as well.

ETA: Sorry, you are right. I stated the wrong amount of water. 4 tablespoons of honey needs 1 1/2 cups distilled water.

Spun
September 9th, 2008, 05:20 PM
It is the same dilution, just more of it. You mentioned that someone noticed that the sides of your hair looked lighter.

Perhaps you just need more solution to get even coverage.

What is the texture of your hair?

Now that I know that can make a difference, it would mean that if your hair is course, that you would have more natural pigment to lighten as well.
I'm pretty sure it was evenly covered. I doubled the recipe and reapplied 2 more times after the initial full coverage. My hair was dripping wet the entire time. :confused:

ktani
September 9th, 2008, 05:24 PM
I'm pretty sure it was evenly covered. I doubled the recipe and reapplied 2 more times after the initial full coverage. My hair was dripping wet the entire time. :confused:

I realized that I stated the dilution incorrectly and edited my last reply. My apologies.

I do not know why you are having problems.

Everything sounds right.

Are you putting anything on your hair in between treatments like heavy conditioners or oil or aloe gel?

Spun
September 9th, 2008, 05:28 PM
I realized that I stated the dilution incorrectly and edited my last reply. My apologies.

I do not know why you are having problems.

Everything sounds right.

Are you putting anything on your hair in between treatments like heavy conditioners or oil or aloe gel?
No. When I plan on doing a honey treatment I make a point of not applying anything to my hair between washes (which my hair Hates) because I'm worried it would make it even less effective than it already is.
Thanks for all your help, Ktani :). You're super patient.

ktani
September 9th, 2008, 05:31 PM
No. When I plan on doing a honey treatment I make a point of not applying anything to my hair between washes (which my hair Hates) because I'm worried it would make it even less effective than it already is.
Thanks for all your help, Ktani :). You're super patient.

My pleasure.

You are getting some lightening but it is much slower than I would have thought, so it is not a total loss.

How is the condition of your hair after all of this?

Spun
September 9th, 2008, 11:45 PM
Are you sure Walmart brand honey is the same in Canada and the States?
It says Canada No1 white on it.

ktani
September 10th, 2008, 07:05 AM
Are you sure Walmart brand honey is the same in Canada and the States?
It says Canada No1 white on it.

No, I am not sure that they would be identical. Canada No 1 dark is a better choice IMO, if you can find some.

How is the condition of your hair after all of the honey lightening you have done?

ktani
September 10th, 2008, 08:32 AM
I may not have been clear on this point, so I will restate my opinion.

Damage to hair by conventional peroxide is limited by the strenghth of the solution, the length of time it is left on the hair and the frequency of use. I believe that the damage to hair by conventional peroxide is a factor in how well the hair retains the henna pigment in it. Henna binds to the keratin and may not be removed completely. Hair loses some keratin naturally over time and with damage, even more so. It could be that when hair is damaged, there is keratin/pigment loss, or the damage just affects the binding of the pigment to the keratin in the case of henna. Brownish yellow may be the end stage for lightening henna pigment or what is left of it. Henna pigment may not lighten further than that, no matter what is used, or how extensively it is used.

I do not believe that honey lightening removes henna pigment. Honey lightening does not from all reports and supported by research, damage hair. I think that honey lightening can, and from reports has, lightened henna pigment, the same way it has been shown in reports, to lighten pigments in virgin, henndigoed and colour-treated hair.

Spun
September 10th, 2008, 12:14 PM
No, I am not sure that they would be identical. Canada No 1 dark is a better choice IMO, if you can find some.

How is the condition of your hair after all of the honey lightening you have done?

I only saw the one kind in Walmart (their brand).
And my hair is really soft and shiny after all the honey. I see no damage at all from it.

ktani
September 10th, 2008, 12:47 PM
I only saw the one kind in Walmart (their brand).
And my hair is really soft and shiny after all the honey. I see no damage at all from it.


Excellent news on the condition of your hair.

My grocery store sells Canada No 1 white and dark. It is not expensive. Look around for the dark if you can.

tinabcurly
September 10th, 2008, 01:51 PM
ktani- I'm hoping you might have some advice/info for me. I apologize in advance for not reading all 200+ pages of this thread. I read quite a bit & did do a few searches that turned up no results.

Is honey lightening advised for chemically dyed hair?

I just recently starting coloring with Robert Craig Chocolate Brown (to cover grey) and it's a bit dark for my liking. I would like to gently fade it a bit without using drying dishsoap or shampoo.

I've read through the guidelines (many, many times :o)and know the dos & don'ts when/if I go forward with my experiment. I'm thinking I would go with the straight 4:1 H2O:honey dilution (12oz H2O:3oz honey). I'm a big chicken when it comes to changing my hair so I'm not going to play with boosters just yet.

What do you think?
TIA!

ktani
September 10th, 2008, 02:36 PM
ktani- I'm hoping you might have some advice/info for me. I apologize in advance for not reading all 200+ pages of this thread. I read quite a bit & did do a few searches that turned up no results.

Is honey lightening advised for chemically dyed hair?

I just recently starting coloring with Robert Craig Chocolate Brown (to cover grey) and it's a bit dark for my liking. I would like to gently fade it a bit without using drying dishsoap or shampoo.

I've read through the guidelines (many, many times :o)and know the dos & don'ts when/if I go forward with my experiment. I'm thinking I would go with the straight 4:1 H2O:honey dilution (12oz H2O:3oz honey). I'm a big chicken when it comes to changing my hair so I'm not going to play with boosters just yet.

What do you think?
TIA!

No apologies necessary. I am glad that you read the guidelines. I suggest distilled water.

To answer your question, honey lightening has been reported to work well on colour-treated hair.

There have been no reported problems with it at all.

tinabcurly
September 10th, 2008, 02:56 PM
No apologies necessary. I am glad that you read the guidelines. I suggest distilled water.

To answer your question, honey lightening has been reported to work well on colour-treated hair.

There have been no reported problems with it at all.

Thank you so much for the quick response!
I have my Target Market Pantry honey & a gallon of distilled water ready to go...per your guidelines. Thank you so much for such complete instructions by the way. I'm a stay-inside-the-lines kind of girl when it comes to hair experiments so I really appreciate them;) Friday's the big day. :D I'll post my results.

ktani
September 10th, 2008, 03:14 PM
Thank you so much for the quick response!
I have my Target Market Pantry honey & a gallon of distilled water ready to go...per your guidelines. Thank you so much for such complete instructions by the way. I'm a stay-inside-the-lines kind of girl when it comes to hair experiments so I really appreciate them;) Friday's the big day. :D I'll post my results.

You are most welcome.

I look forwrd to your results, with pictures, recipe repeated and a report on the condition of your hair, all in one post if you can, please.

Jorchet
September 11th, 2008, 07:15 AM
Is it ok to CO wash? I don't use shampoo, so for clean hair I would have to either buy a shampoo (no idea which brand or kind would be good! it's been too long without buying shampoo!) or CO wash and not apply any stylers at all after washing my hair. Maybe CO wash and then ACV rinse to make sure no condish is left? :hmm:

ktani
September 11th, 2008, 08:04 AM
Is it ok to CO wash? I don't use shampoo, so for clean hair I would have to either buy a shampoo (no idea which brand or kind would be good! it's been too long without buying shampoo!) or CO wash and not apply any stylers at all after washing my hair. Maybe CO wash and then ACV rinse to make sure no condish is left? :hmm:

If you have clarified recently, a CO and acv should be. If there is a lot of build-up on your hair, I suggest that you clarify first.

Jorchet
September 11th, 2008, 11:02 AM
If you have clarified recently, a CO and acv should be. If there is a lot of build-up on your hair, I suggest that you clarify first.

Thank you Ktani! You're always so helpful! :flower:

ktani
September 11th, 2008, 11:15 AM
Thank you Ktani! You're always so helpful! :flower:

You are most welcome, thank you.

wintersun99
September 11th, 2008, 12:29 PM
Ktani-

I am considering increasing the boosters in my mix. If I was to increase the cinnamon to 3 tbls and the cardamom to 3 tbls OR use 6 tbls of cardamom (as it's easier to rinse) how would that effect the 4:1 liquid/honey ratio? Would it still be 3/4 c water and 1/8 c honey + the 6 tbls of booster?

ktani
September 11th, 2008, 12:56 PM
Ktani-

I am considering increasing the boosters in my mix. If I was to increase the cinnamon to 3 tbls and the cardamom to 3 tbls OR use 6 tbls of cardamom (as it's easier to rinse) how would that effect the 4:1 liquid/honey ratio? Would it still be 3/4 c water and 1/8 c honey + the 6 tbls of booster?

The water to honey ratio does not change. For 1/8 cup honey it would still be 3/4 cup water.

You may feel more comfortable, with that amount of spice, doubling the recipe to 1/4 cup honey and 1 1/2 cups distilled water.

In fact I recommend doing so, just to dilute the spices more, even if you have leftover treatment.

But I do advise caution with spices because an increase may cause irritation where previous, lower amounts have not.

At the first sign of trouble, I strongly suggest rinsing the treatment out.

ktani
September 12th, 2008, 06:57 AM
New in this thread on Pg 3 - by Linda She uses coconut oil as a pre treatment before colouring with conventional permanent colour, and reports that by applying the hair colour over the oil, which has been on her hair for a while each time, damage from the colour is minimal.

Here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=265371&postcount=28
and here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=265434&postcount=30

The thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

Spun
September 12th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Last night I did a treatment and accidentally fell asleep with it on. It ended up being on my hair for about 8 hours.
I used 1c distilled water, 3 tbs of honey, 1 tbs cardamom, 1tbs cinnamon and 1 tbs EVOO (I know it's not the suggested ratio, but I was curious).

Both before and after pictures were taken outside on sunny days with no clouds same spot and same time of day.

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr9/xxSpunxx/hair.jpg

Any difference? To me it looks like it made my light brown a little warmer?
I only really notice it in the sun, though. Even a friend asked if I was spending a ton of time outside in sun causing my hair to lighten.

ktani
September 12th, 2008, 06:13 PM
Last night I did a treatment and accidentally fell asleep with it on. It ended up being on my hair for about 8 hours.
I used 1c distilled water, 3 tbs of honey, 1 tbs cardamom, 1tbs cinnamon and 1 tbs EVOO (I know it's not the suggested ratio, but I was curious).

Both before and after pictures were taken outside on sunny days with no clouds same spot and same time of day.

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr9/xxSpunxx/hair.jpg

Any difference? To me it looks like it made my light brown a little warmer?
I only really notice it in the sun, though. Even a friend asked if I was spending a ton of time outside in sun causing my hair to lighten.

Thank you for posting and the pictures.

I do see a tone change and if your friend noticed a big difference from the last time she saw you, then I have no doubt that the lightening is more noticible than you think.

I would try to use the correct dilution. You can do the calcultions from this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conve...surements.html (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conve...surements.html)

You need between 3/4 cup of distilled water and 1 1/2 cups distilled water.

Spun
September 12th, 2008, 06:17 PM
Thank you for posting and the pictures.

I do see a tone change and if your friend noticed a big difference from the last time she saw you, then I have no doubt that the lightening is more noticible than you think.

I would try to use the correct dilution. You can do the calcultions from this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conve...surements.html (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conve...surements.html)

You need between 3/4 cup of distilled water and 1 1/2 cups distilled water.
Yeah, I know it's not the correct dilution, but I wanted to see if it would do anything since the other wasn't working. I have been taking pictures after each time like this and this is the first time I can see a difference.

ktani
September 12th, 2008, 06:23 PM
Yeah, I know it's not the correct dilution, but I wanted to see if it would do anything since the other wasn't working. I have been taking pictures after each time like this and this is the first time I can see a difference.

The funny thing is a number of people who have honey lightened did not notice much of a difference until they did take pictures. Picture lighting can be tricky though. That is why reports from those around you are important, IMO. They see your hair in different lighting conditions, up close.

Spun
September 12th, 2008, 06:28 PM
The funny thing is a number of people who have honey lightened did not notice much of a difference until they did take pictures. Picture lighting can be tricky though. That is why reports from those around you are important, IMO. They see your hair in different lighting conditions, up close.
Yeah, I understand that. Which is why I've been making a point of taking pictures in the same lighting after each time so I could document any changes for myself.
I take multiple pictures each time to ensure it's not just a fluke picture with odd lighting.

ktani
September 12th, 2008, 06:38 PM
Yeah, I understand that. Which is why I've been making a point of taking pictures in the same lighting after each time so I could document any changes for myself.
I take multiple pictures each time to ensure it's not just a fluke picture with odd lighting.

From what you have posted, people noticed lightening on the sides of your hair before this.

I think that you are finally getting the lightening that you want, depending on your goal.

As long as you are close to the correct amount of distilled water for the dilution, IMO, that is fine.

ktani
September 13th, 2008, 11:20 AM
I originally posted this in another thread, with regard to added pigment but I think that it applies to honey lightening and the peroxide in it, changing virgin hair colour too. I put key phrases in bold.

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown.
Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair.
What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin
very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm


Spun I think that the information here applies to you in terms of the thickness of your hair as well perhaps as your pigment ratios and hair texture and then there was the honey you used. Your method was excellent, as were your recipes, IMO.

Spun
September 13th, 2008, 07:56 PM
I originally posted this in another thread, with regard to added pigment but I think that it applies to honey lightening and the peroxide in it, changing virgin hair colour too. I put key phrases in bold.

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown.
Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair.
What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin
very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm


Spun I think that the information here applies to you in terms of the thickness of your hair as well perhaps as your pigment ratios and hair texture and then there was the honey you used. Your method was excellent, as were your recipes, IMO.

Yeah I think my hair type may have something to do with why this recipe with the length of time finally worked.
I'm tempted to try again tonight but I'm worried about it going to warm. I really do prefer ashy tones.

ktani
September 13th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Yeah I think my hair type may have something to do with why this recipe with the length of time finally worked.
I'm tempted to try again tonight but I'm worried about it going to warm. I really do prefer ashy tones.

Honey lightening has not been reported to add colour to the hair and has been reported to reduce warm tones for more than one person.

The only time colour was reported to be added was when the recipe included chamomile tea and the tea was made too strong.

In terms of will your hair go red/gold - it is one of the stages in lightening certain hair colours - brown to red to gold to blonde.

You already appear to be at the gold stage, so it sould go lighter and less gold from here, as it lightens.

Spun
September 13th, 2008, 08:08 PM
How difficult is it to just do roots with honey? I imagine fairly difficult considering how runny it is.

Spun
September 13th, 2008, 08:09 PM
Also I've run out of cinnamon. I wonder how much it contributed to the results.

ktani
September 13th, 2008, 08:47 PM
Spun

Roots can be tricky. Being closer to the scalp, hair dries faster there (body heat).

I suggest applying the treatment to clean dry hair and using a tint or blush brush but you will need to keep the areas very wet (constant spraying or misting), before covering and keep the hair securely covered. A swim cap is my best recommendation.

As for the cinnamon - its contribution of extra peroxide will depend on the peroxide level of the honey.

Some have reported excellent results with just honey and water.

ktani
September 14th, 2008, 10:37 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
September 14th, 2008, 09:14 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

Note: A treatment can also be applied to wet hair.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (a must) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
September 15th, 2008, 08:45 AM
Thanks to some research by iris, there is a variance in the amount of accumulated hydrogen peroxide in honey when diluted, depending on the honey.

This may explain why some people get better results with slightly less distilled water.

Try using slightly less water, if the treatment mixed at the new dilution does not work well at first. From reports in this thread, some people get better results with slightly more water used. Double check how the measurements were done.

1/8th cup honey US, needs 3/4 cup US distilled water.

1/4 cup honey US, needs 1 1/2 cups US distilled water.

ktani
September 15th, 2008, 01:02 PM
I am now calling the correct 4 to 1 dilution the new dilution. It is just simpler IMO, and refers to 4 x the amount of distillled water to honey by weight.

I haved edited all recommendation posts, main picture posts and the Honey Article, to reflect this.

ktani
September 16th, 2008, 06:25 AM
The basic honey lightening rules are:

1. No heat is to be used with any honey lightening ingredients at any time (body heat does not count). All ingredients should be mixed at room temperature only.

2. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water (distilled is recommended) to honey by weight. Weigh the honey or convert, e.g. 42.5 grams of honey = 2 tablespoons = 1/8 cup = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6oz = 3/4 cup US, distilled water needed for a treatment. Conversion tables and a calculator are in this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

3. The hair must be kept very wet both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair. A hat can be used to secure a shower cap, plastic bag/wrap, or a swim cap worn (all recommended). Another option is to mist the hair with leftover treatment during the 1 recommended hour, that a treatment is on the hair.

These rules are based on successful honey lightening reports and research.

ktani
September 16th, 2008, 06:26 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight).

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060[/quote]

ktani
September 16th, 2008, 07:18 AM
I originally posted this in another thread, with regard to added pigment but I think that it applies to honey lightening and the peroxide in it, changing virgin hair colour too. I put key phrases in bold.

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown.
Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair.
What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin
very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

ktani
September 16th, 2008, 10:32 PM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey US to 3/4 cup distilled water US (1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6z = 3/4 cup distilled water needed) or x amout of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight.
Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
September 17th, 2008, 08:20 AM
With the new dilution, 4 x the amout of distilled water to honey by weight, e.g. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup honey US) to 6 oz US (3/4 cup US) distilled water, there is some flexibility, depending on how it is measured.

Try reducing the water by a small amount, or increase the water a bit, if there is doubt about the measurements, in terms of the amount of water used.

Treecrown
September 17th, 2008, 08:35 AM
I'm trying this for the first time, with organic Finnish honey --I just read the directions more carefully and realized I used slightly too much water, but hopefully it will still work. More worrying is how impossibly DRIPPY it is. Lucky that honey is good for the skin, because it's getting all over me in spite of the shower cap, towel, etc. I hope I can make it for an hour!

I'm wondering if a non-heating thickening method, like adding xanthum, would interfere with the process?

ktani
September 17th, 2008, 08:43 AM
I'm trying this for the first time, with organic Finnish honey --I just read the directions more carefully and realized I used slightly too much water, but hopefully it will still work. More worrying is how impossibly DRIPPY it is. Lucky that honey is good for the skin, because it's getting all over me in spite of the shower cap, towel, etc. I hope I can make it for an hour!

Good luck with it and please post your results with pictures, if you can and include information on the condition of your hair, following the treatment, please.

Don't worry too much about slight variances with the water. You may find that you get better results decreasing or increasing the water by a certain amount, depending on how you measured.

ktani
September 17th, 2008, 09:05 AM
I'm wondering if a non-heating thickening method, like adding xanthum, would interfere with the process?

I have researched various thickeners, including gums, and they are not compatible with peroxide. IMO, they would diminish possibe results.

I do not recommend adding thickeners to a honey lightening recipe.

ktani
September 17th, 2008, 09:23 AM
One of the best methods to secure a honey lightening treatment and keep the hair wet, came from kokuryu, and it is wearing a swim cap. It may also help to reduce drips.

The amount of drips may also depend on the thickness of the hair, and the amount of treatment applied, but the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered.

ktani
September 17th, 2008, 10:15 AM
The basic honey lightening rules are:

1. No heat is to be used with any honey lightening ingredients at any time (body heat does not count). All ingredients should be mixed at room temperature only.

2. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water (distilled is recommended) to honey by weight. Weigh the honey or convert, e.g. 42.5 grams of honey = 2 tablespoons = 1/8 cup = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 3/4 cup US, distilled water needed for a treatment. Conversion tables and a calculator are in this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

3. The hair must be kept very wet both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair. A hat can be used to secure a shower cap, plastic bag/wrap, or a swim cap worn (all recommended). Another option is to mist the hair with leftover treatment during the 1 recommended hour, that a treatment is on the hair.

These rules are based on successful honey lightening reports and research.

ktani
September 18th, 2008, 06:44 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight).

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
September 18th, 2008, 08:29 AM
I have updated both the Honey article, and the main recommendations post in my signature, with the information that shampoo is preferable to a vinegar rinse for removing honey residue.

Different honeys can leave different levels of residue on the hair.

Not all honeys leave a residue that is discernable.

Hair dryness or tangling or stiff hair ends, indicate honey residue after a honey lightening treatment.

This is not a permanent result when shampoo is used and shampooing has been reported to resolve the problem fairly quickly.

ktani
September 18th, 2008, 10:20 AM
I based the new dilution on the following method for determining the peroxide level of a honey. There are spelling and grammar errors in the translation but the information is sound IMO, (the method is supported by research) and results reported in this thread, support the dilution used. The new dilution, has been reported to yield results that are much better than previous results reported with other dilutions, doing so in only 1 hour on the hair.

"If honey (preferably 10 grams) is mix with 4 times that amount of water at 20°C .... glucose-oxidase will generate hydrogen-peroxide ....
After 1 hour of weating .... maximum amount of hydrogen-peroxide is present ....
Distilled water .... used
Weigh 10 g honey .... mix with 40 g (40 ml) distilled water. Mix without warming ....
Let stand for one hour at room temperature ...."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

I recommend that a honey lightening recipe be left to stand for 1 hour, before application to dry hair that has no leave-in or residue on it, but it can be used right away as well, on wet hair, and it will produce peroxide while on the hair. It is most important that the hair be very wet with the treatment, both before and while it is covered. I think that wearing a swim cap is best, to keep the hair covered and wet during the time that it is on the hair (the recommended time is 1 hour), but plastic wrap, or a secured shower cap (with a hat worn over it) has been reported to work well too. Body heat does not negatively affect the treatment but external heat is not recommended to be used at any time (including during the recipe preparation). Heat can and has been reported to negatively affect results.

The treatment can be left on the hair longer than 1 hour but it is not necessary to do that and it has been reported to work well with the 1 hour recommended time.

Leaving a honey lightening treatment on the hair for endless hours or overnight is no longer required with this dilution and method, to get optimal results.

10 grams is the recommended minimum amount of honey to be used. Most people use 2 tablespoons (42.5 g) = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz for the amount of distilled water needed. 6 oz = 3/4 cup US.

A honey lightening treatment can be washed out of the hair with shampoo or CO'd out, according to preference.

ktani
September 19th, 2008, 07:10 AM
Storing honey lightening ingredients

Honey
"Store honey at room temperature with .... lid on tightly."
http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57 (http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57)

Ground spices
"Ground spices will keep .... 1 year .... Spices should be kept away from the heat, light and humidity .... prevent flavor and color loss." http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf (http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf)

Coconut oil
"Coconut oil is extremely stable .... can be kept at room temperature .... many months."
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/oil/coconut.html (http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/oil/coconut.html)

Extra Virgin Olive Oil
"Olive oil connoisseurs recommend storing .... extra-virgin olive oils at room temperature."
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm (http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm)

Water
Store .... water .... in a cool, dark place.
Replace water every six months."
http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/info.asp?page=2839

Opened water
"To minimize exposure to bacteria, open a container just before use and then refrigerate it .... If no refrigeration .... available, keep the container up high, away from children and pets.
Direct heat and light .... slowly damage plastic containers resulting in eventual leakage .... they should be stored in a dark, cool and dry place.
Water can also be stored in a freezer."
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SS439

ktani
September 19th, 2008, 05:32 PM
Going back over some research in the original Honey thread and discussing it with a friend, certain points of interest were raised.

In a study done on the hydrogen peroxide generated by a range of 8 honeys on dilution, more peroxide was produced at a 30 - 40 % concentration than at other honey to water concentrations (the full study is not currently online).

However, the optimal pH of a honey water solution to produce hydrogen peroxide is 6. In the study, the solutions at various dilutions, were all chemically buffered, and then adjusted with sodium hydroxide to pH 6, as required, before the testing began.

In the Honey threads, when conditioner was used at 2 parts to 1 with honey, lightening was reported but it was very gradual in most cases. All conditioners are acidic, because as well as conditioning hair, they are designed to close the cuticle and keep hair smooth. Mixing conditioner with honey to lighten hair, can be problematic in 3 ways; ingredients that interfere with lightening, water content depending on the conditioner, and pH.

Tap water has various pH levels and a varying mineral content. Minerals can negatively affect hydrogen peroxide levels. Distilled water has a pH of 7 or neutral and no minerals.



The pH of honey can vary between 3.2 and 6.1, depending on the source of information (I think that the 2nd source's information below, is the more typical range. Canadian honeys tested for a science project, http://www.honeycouncil.ca/index.php/canadianhoney_mastitis, averaged out to pH 6. Unless you test a honey, you do not know what pH it is on dilution, and at what dilution, with liquids. Many honeys on the market are blends of honey from all over the world, even single source (type) honeys, like clover.

Originally Posted by Marlowe in another thread
"According to the bottle Burleson's honey is U.S. Grade A Fancy clover, sourced from the U.S.A., Argentina, Canada, Brazil, Vietnam, Mexico, and India."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=275298&postcount=10

1. “average pH of honey is 3.9 …. typical range of 3.4 to 6.1”
http://www.honey.com/images/downloads/ph-acidsinhoney.pdf[/URL]

2. "Honey .... characteristically quite acidic pH .... between 3.2 and 4.5”
[URL]http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/honey_intro.shtml#Acidity (http://www.honey.com/foodindustry/resourcedb/pdfs/ph-acidsinhoney.pdf)



I think that the new dilution with distilled water, works so well for so many people, because the pH of the honey water solution is at a level that allows more peroxide to be produced than previous dilutions, with conditioner and tap water, aside from other factors.

I looked into pH buffers. The one in the study was used at a very precise, very low concentration, so was the sodium hydroxide. Different pH buffers have different applications (they react chemically in different ways) so self buffering a honey lightening recipe (by adding a pH buffer) is not recommended, and the same applies to using sodium hydroxide, IMO. I think that buffering and adjusting a honey water solution to pH 6, would be very difficult to do, without the proper measuring and safety equipment, and precautions. Both the buffer and the sodium hydroxide used in the study, were specific for the purpose intended, and honey.

How the information from the study translates to honey lightening is simple, IMO. You can use the new dilution. It has been reported to be a great success so far, or you can test the pH of the honey you buy on dilution, and if it is pH 6, which is possible, try a dilution with less distilled water than the new dilution.

ktani
September 19th, 2008, 11:23 PM
There is something else to keep in mind, IMO. The peroxide values of honeys vary.

If you use a honey with a known high peroxide value, with the new dilution, I think that honey lightening results can that much better.

Jarrah honey is known to have a very high peroxide value.

“WA scientists claim jarrah honey benefit
Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average .... But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf

see "Comparing Different Types of Honey" - date 2008
" .... Jarrah honey .... contains higher amounts of glucose oxidase .... "
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

Glucose oxidase is the enzyme in honey that produces hydrogen peroxide.

Jarrah honey suppliers I found and contacted - prices and shipping costs vary as will stock amounts. There are no doubt more suppliers out there - this to start you off. As more are reported, I will add them to this list.

International shipping will be noted with an asterisk *.

*1. Their price list and they report Jarrah honey in stock (confirmed June 2008 ). They do ship internationally.
Prices
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html)
Contact page
http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html)

*2. Yes to Jarrah honey in stock (confirmed June 2008 ) and they ship internationally. This one seems to be fast on replies to inquiries.
Contact page
http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm)
Order page with prices
http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm)

Treecrown
September 20th, 2008, 09:19 AM
My hair is just drying from my second honey treatment--less of a mess this time because I put a small towel, rolled up, around my hairline INSIDE the shower cap.

I've used tap water of unknown pH and mineral content because I wanted to do it immediately and didn't have any distilled water. The results on my overall color are too subtle so far to say much, but it has definitely pulled out some henna and katam, in case this is helpful for anyone.

I used a bit more shampoo and ran the suds through my length, and this time I don't have that dry post-honey feeling.

I'll try it with distilled water next week.

ktani
September 20th, 2008, 09:36 AM
My hair is just drying from my second honey treatment--less of a mess this time because I put a small towel, rolled up, around my hairline INSIDE the shower cap.

I've used tap water of unknown pH and mineral content because I wanted to do it immediately and didn't have any distilled water. The results on my overall color are too subtle so far to say much, but it has definitely pulled out some henna and katam, in case this is helpful for anyone.

I used a bit more shampoo and ran the suds through my length, and this time I don't have that dry post-honey feeling.

I'll try it with distilled water next week.

Thank you for the update.

The pH of the water is useful to know but you also need to know the pH of the honey on dilution.

I would not worry too much about that. Just try the distilled water, as you are going to do.

Great news that the treatment worked to pull out some colour, however subtle, at this point.

Also great news that the shampoo helped so quickly with the honey residue.

The tricky part with using the towel inside the shower cap, is that you do not want the towel to absorb treatment that you need to work on your roots. The hair needs to be very wet with treatment in order for it to work but drips are not essential.

I suggest that if you continue to use honey lightening, that you try to find a swim cap that can hold your hair more securely than the shower cap.

You may find that you get less drips with it too.

maryva
September 20th, 2008, 09:46 PM
Am I understanding that cinnamon also will not lighten hair if it is heated before application? And the same with honey?

I just ordered some honeyquat, which is a hair care ingredient made from honey -- has anyone heard of or used it? Thanks!

ktani
September 20th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Am I understanding that cinnamon also will not lighten hair if it is heated before application? And the same with honey?

I just ordered some honeyquat, which is a hair care ingredient made from honey -- has anyone heard of or used it? Thanks!

I have not heard of honeyquat but I will elaborate on my reply to you in the cinnamon thread.

Cinnamon, as well as several other spices, has a fairly high peroxide value, although the spice peroxide values are not as high as the peroxide values can be of honey.

Peroxide values of spices
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en#PPA321,M1 (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en#PPA321,M1)

A number of things have a negative affect on hydrogen peroxide; Vitamin C, minerals and heat.

With heat, it depends on the amount of heat, and the amount of time that the heat is applied.

"Hydrogen peroxide .... contact with heat .... usually decompose into water and oxygen ...."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron) …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html)

Heat negatively affects the enzyme in honey that produces hydrogen peroxide and heat can also affect the peroxide produced by honey.

ktani
September 20th, 2008, 10:25 PM
I just ordered some honeyquat, which is a hair care ingredient made from honey -- has anyone heard of or used it? Thanks!

Honeyquat is a quaternium compound derived from honey.
http://www.lotioncrafter.com/store/Honeyquat-PF-pr-16420.html

Quaternium compounds are ingredients used in cosmetics that have different applications and can be combing/conditioning/film forming agents, and preservatives.
Honeyquat MSDS "Chemical Incompatibility Strong oxidizing agents" I would not use it in a honey lightening recipe. Hydrogen peroxide is a moderately strong oxidizing agent
http://lotioncrafter.com/reference/msds_honeyquat.pdf

Chemical incompatibility
"term can also refer to an unwanted change in the physical or mechanical properties of the materials."
http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/incompatible.html

maryva
September 20th, 2008, 10:42 PM
Thanks so much for all the info. How long should one heat the cinnamon and or honey in order to avoid hair lightening?

ktani
September 20th, 2008, 10:50 PM
Thanks so much for all the info. How long should one heat the cinnamon and or honey in order to avoid hair lightening?

You are most welcome.

Microwaving honey for under 1 minute, should destroy the enzyme that produces peroxide.

People have boiled cinnamon or steeped it in boiling water with herbal tea and reported in this thread, that it had it not helped lighten hair.

ktani
September 21st, 2008, 07:05 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Hair must be competely wet with the treatment both before, and while the treatment is on the hair. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
September 21st, 2008, 07:06 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight).

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
September 21st, 2008, 07:07 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
September 21st, 2008, 07:11 AM
The basic honey lightening rules are:

1. No heat is to be used with any honey lightening ingredients at any time (body heat does not count). All ingredients should be mixed at room temperature only.

2. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water (distilled is recommended) to honey by weight. Weigh the honey or convert, e.g. 42.5 grams of honey = 2 tablespoons = 1/8 cup honey = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6oz = 3/4 cup US, distilled water needed for a treatment. Conversion tables and a calculator are in this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

3. The hair must be kept very wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Another option is to mist the hair with leftover treatment during the 1 recommended hour, that a treatment is on the hair.

These rules are based on successful honey lightening reports and research.

ktani
September 21st, 2008, 07:45 AM
Covering a honey lightening treatment.

Of all of the options reported to cover a treatment while it is on the hair, IMO, wearing a swim cap is best to ensure that the hair stays wet.

It is very important that the hair be very wet with the treatment, both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair.

Wearing a swim cap is the option I now recommend. I think that it is worth the investment, if you do not have one.

Links about swim caps
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

ktani
September 21st, 2008, 09:40 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric).

In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric).

Or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution.

1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

ktani
September 21st, 2008, 12:14 PM
Information on swim caps.

Speedo swim cap for long hair
http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/3620.htm

LHC swim cap thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=8562

A swim cap guide
http://www.geocities.com/lapswimr/scg.html

ktani
September 21st, 2008, 08:22 PM
Pictures of honey ligtening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
September 22nd, 2008, 06:29 AM
For those who are vegan, or know someone who is who wants to naturally lighten their hair, but not use honey, this may help.

Both cinnamon and cardamom and the honey lightening booster oils, coconut and evoo, contain the same or the same kind of protective flavonoids as honey, that were found in research, to protect cells from hydrogen peroxide damage. The flavonoids are chelants and P&G found that chemical chelants help protect hair from conventional peroxide damage too. You may be able to put together a mix, using just the honey lightening boosters with distilled water, to get results that are faster and better than cinnamon, or any of the boosters used on its own in a mix with conditioner, (cinnamon and conditioner is a mix recommended on the internet for hair lightening but it has been reported to be very gradual in practice).

Honey and ground cinnamon mixed with conditioner, has been reported to work well in this thread, to lighten hair.

However, honey and ground cinnamon at the new dilution, using only distilled water, has been reported to work much faster and much better, with less ground cinnamon required.

As I said in an earlier post, mixing conditioner with honey to lighten hair, can be problematic in 3 ways; ingredients that interfere with lightening, water content depending on the conditioner, and pH. I think that this applies the honey lightening boosters as well.

I do not know what dilution would work best, for a mix using distilled water with the boosters alone. I suggest starting out with the same water amounts as for a honey lightening treatment, with the new dilution. 6 oz of distilled water has been reported to be more than enough liquid, for most hair lengths.

The rest of the honey lightening guidlines apply. No added heat or Vitamin C should be used with the recipe chosen, everthing should be mixed and applied at room temperature only, and the hair should be covered and kept very wet in the same manner (it needs to be very wet with the treatment both before and while covered). A swim cap is recommended. I suggest the same timing as a honey lightening treatment too, to start, 1 hour on the hair.

The treatment can also be left to sit 1 hour before application. Without honey, that may or may not make a difference.

ktani
September 22nd, 2008, 06:30 PM
The basic honey lightening rules are:

1. No heat is to be used with any honey lightening ingredients at any time (body heat does not count). All ingredients should be mixed at room temperature only.

2. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water (distilled is recommended) to honey by weight. Weigh the honey or convert, e.g. 42.5 grams of honey = 2 tablespoons = 1/8 cup = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6oz = 3/4 cup US, or 12 tablespoons distilled water needed for a treatment. Conversion tables and a calculator are in this link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.

3. The hair must be kept very wet both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim is recommended. Another option is to mist the hair with leftover treatment during the 1 recommended hour, that a treatment is on the hair.

These rules are based on successful honey lightening reports and research.