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harley mama
July 18th, 2008, 06:19 AM
OK, I think I have all the stuff to make the new and improved version of this potion!
I plan to try it again in a day or two. The up side is that even if I don't get lighter
hair, it will be soft and shiny!

My photo comparison is not really a good one either. In the before photos, my hair
is day3 and has a lot of oil on it.

ktani, thanks for all the helpful directions. After reading all morning, my brain was about to explode! I didn't actually measure the honey. I just used what was left in the bottle and guessed the amount. I also added the cinnamon and nutmeg to the steeped tea while it was still warm hoping to dissolve it better. I will be interested to see how the recipe does using the proper mixing techniques!

ETA- I do think my tone is a little redder, which is OK. I love red tones and would actually like it to be even a little redder. IS there a way to tweak the recipe to help bring the red out more?

ktani
July 18th, 2008, 06:54 AM
OK, I think I have all the stuff to make the new and improved version of this potion!
I plan to try it again in a day or two. The up side is that even if I don't get lighter
hair, it will be soft and shiny!

My photo comparison is not really a good one either. In the before photos, my hair
is day3 and has a lot of oil on it.

ktani, thanks for all the helpful directions. After reading all morning, my brain was about to explode! I didn't actually measure the honey. I just used what was left in the bottle and guessed the amount. I also added the cinnamon and nutmeg to the steeped tea while it was still warm hoping to dissolve it better. I will be interested to see how the recipe does using the proper mixing techniques!

ETA- I do think my tone is a little redder, which is OK. I love red tones and would actually like it to be even a little redder. IS there a way to tweak the recipe to help bring the red out more?

harley mama

You are welcome.

If you have oil or product residue on your hair - that can act as a barrier to the treatment as well - so it is best to wash the hair first in that case and dry it to slightly damp before applying a treatment.

Also remove any traces of anything like aloe gel that contains Vitamin C.

If your hair has no product residues or oil on it, you can apply a honey lightenning treatment to unwashed, dry hair.

I do not recommend nutmeg bcause it has more irritiant potential than cinnamon, which can be irritant enough on its own.

Patch test and try ground cardamom - it has been reported to work well but can be an irritant too.

Adding any of the peroxide containing ingredients to still warm tea is not recommended, as the heat can negatively affect the peroxide.

Red is a natural result of lightening - it goes like this generally - dark brown black - to brown - to red - to gold - to blonde.

As you lighten, with anything, most hair will go through those stages. You can stop at the point you desire.

ktani
July 18th, 2008, 01:56 PM
When I submitted the recommendations post linked in my signature for approval as an Article, one of the mods cleaned up my grammar and punctuation, and made the entire piece flow and read better, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=61

This is a public thank you to that mod.

ktani
July 19th, 2008, 08:08 AM
More on the factors that can cause hydrogen peroxide to decompose.

"The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature .... increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); exposure to ultraviolet light. ....
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

"Heat, U.V. light .... certain minerals will cause h2o2 to decompose. This can be very gradual or rapid, depending upon the amount of heat, U.V. light ...."
http://www.dfwx.com/h2o2wholesale.html

"Hydrogen peroxide .... contact with heat .... usually decompose into water and oxygen ...."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

So, as a reminder, for honey lightening, I recommemd no external heat, like a blow dryer (body heat is fine), and no sunlight.

Distilled water, which is mineral free, is the only water I recommend.

If you use herbal tea, cool it to room temperature, before adding any other ingredients of the honey lighting recipe.

ktani
July 19th, 2008, 11:06 AM
More on hydrogen peroxide and light.

H202 MSDS
"Store drums .... cool areas out of direct sunlight"
https://www.accessbutler.com/msdsimages/A0001375.pdf (https://www.accessbutler.com/msdsimages/A0001375.pdf)

"MSDS Name: Hydrogen Peroxide 30-50%
Store protected from light."
http://avogadro.chem.iastate.edu/MSDS/H2O2_30pct.htm

"Sunlight can cause decomposition of the peroxide solution ...."
http://www.croberts.com/h2o2.htm (http://www.croberts.com/h2o2.htm)

"UV light causes H2O2 to decompose."
http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/earthwatch_4 (http://www.vitalitymagazine.com/earthwatch_4)

"Hydrogen peroxide decomposition .... promoted by exposure to ultraviolet light."
http://www.solvaychemicals.us/static/wma/pdf/6/6/1/2/H5-2039.pdf (http://www.solvaychemicals.us/static/wma/pdf/6/6/1/2/H5-2039.pdf)

ktani
July 20th, 2008, 08:25 AM
Here are 2 links on honey and crystallization.

While the honey is still good, I do not recommend heating it to bring it back to a liquid state for honey lightening.

There is always the risk IMO, that too much heat can negatively affect the enzyme that produces hydrogen peroxide, although it would take a high heat over an extended period of time to do that.

Honey should be stored away from heat, light and moisture.

"Store honey .... room temperature .... the lid on tightly.
http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57 (http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57)

If you have a honey that has crystallized, I recommend buying a new liquid honey for honey lightening and storing it in a cool dark cupboard.

Honey crystallization
http://www.honey.com/downloads/crystallization.pdf (http://www.honey.com/downloads/crystallization.pdf)

http://scienceline.org/2007/04/09/ask-westly-crystallizedhoney/ (http://scienceline.org/2007/04/09/ask-westly-crystallizedhoney/)

ktani
July 20th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Pasteurization and honey.

"Pasteurized honey
Pasteurization of honey .... marketing issue not a health issue.
.... heating process in pasteurization extends the shelf life of honey by destroying the natural "seed" crystals .... cause granulation and fermentation. Natural sugar tolerant yeasts are present in honey and .... will grow if .... moisture level is too high (over 18%) and storage temperature too warm. Honey .... more likely to ferment after it has granulated .... to prevent both granulation and fermentation .... pasteurization process is used to kill the sugar tolerant yeasts.

.... commercial equipment at packing establishments .... made to heat honey quickly to 160 degrees F (71 degrees C) for four minutes .... then cool it quickly through a heat exchanger. Without this equipment to heat and cool honey rapidly .... quality of the heated honey would be lower." http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4844 (http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4844)

The above link has been temporarily disabled while The Honey Council does site repairs. I saved the text in my research stash.

Pasteurized honey has been reported to work just as well as raw honey in honey lightening.



Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide, based on the reported results.

It appears that there can be more than one method used to pasteurize honey.

"A recommended temperature for pasteurization of honey .... 145°F for 30 minutes. .... this might seem to present no problems, but it must be remembered .... unless flash heating and immediate cooling are used, many hours .... required for a batch of honey to cool from 145° to a safe temperature."
http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/bkCD/Products_Hive/honey_com.html

"Of all the enzymes in honey .... glucose-oxidase .... the most volatile (most sensitive for heating) Heating for 40 minutes at 70°C (160°F) .... eliminate glucose-oxidase."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

Glucose oxidase is the exzyme in honey that produces hydrogen peroxide.



There have been enough reports in Honey, in all 5 threads so far, to indicate that cheap pasteurized honeys have worked just as well as raw honey in honey lightening.

I think that most pasteurized honey on the market today is processed with the 4 minute vs the 30 minute method. This would account for the successful reports, IMO.

ktani
July 20th, 2008, 09:46 PM
Some recent reports in the Pictures Post #15, in my signature link.

Jan in ID - on virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution - after 5 treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Alley Cat - on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - this one with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value"
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

kokuryu
July 21st, 2008, 11:58 AM
Hello, I'm new to this WONDERFUL forum, and I'm a huge honey fan. Let me share my experience on honey lightening.

I'm after 2 treatments. I use Polish WILDFLOWER HONEY (from an apiarist) and mix it with tap water. I don't calculate the amount of honey or water. The final mixture looks like a watery conditioner. It doesn't drip, though. I apply it to damp hair (virgin, middle blond), and leave it on for 2/3 hours. Finally, I use a shampoo and a white vinegar rinse.
The result of these two treatments is a miracle. My hair is significantly lighter. (All my friends and family members have noticed the change in the colour and shade.) It's well conditioned and shiny. I've experienced very dry and stiff ends, nevertheless repeated shampooing effectively resolves the problem

Today, I bought a jar of coconut oil, and I'm going to add it to my mixture next time. I hope to see more results :).
Thanks.

ktani
July 21st, 2008, 12:18 PM
Hello, I'm new to this WONDERFUL forum, and I'm a huge honey fan. Let me share my experience on honey lightening.

I'm after 2 treatments. I use Polish WILDFLOWER HONEY (from an apiarist) and mix it with tap water. I don't calculate the amount of honey or water. The final mixture looks like a watery conditioner. It doesn't drip, though. I apply it to damp hair (virgin, middle blond), and leave it on for 2/3 hours. Finally, I use a shampoo and a white vinegar rinse.
The result of these two treatments is a miracle. My hair is significantly lighter. (All my friends and family members have noticed the change in the colour and shade.) It's well conditioned and shiny. I've experienced very dry and stiff ends, nevertheless repeated shampooing effectively resolves the problem

Today, I bought a jar of coconut oil, and I'm going to add it to my mixture next time. I hope to see more results :).
Thanks.

kokuryu

Welcome to LHC and Honey.

Thank you for posting.

You did exactly what you needed to do to get rid of the honey residue.

I am glad for you that your hair is in good condition and that you got such noticeable lightening.

I still think that distilled water and measuring is a better idea, though.

kokuryu
July 21st, 2008, 12:47 PM
Welcome to LHC and Honey.


Thank you!:)


Here's my BEFORE/AFTER picture:

http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

ktani
July 21st, 2008, 01:08 PM
Thank you!:)


Here's my BEFORE/AFTER picture:

http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.jpg

I changed your png extension to jpg - the png extensions do not open.

Could you please try to post your pictures again?

ktani
July 21st, 2008, 02:28 PM
kokuryu

IMO, if you had no drips with your recipe, the honey was not fully diluted.

I think that you will get better results following the 4 to 1 dilution, by weight, next time and applying the treatment to dry hair that has no residues or oil, or anything with Vitamin C in it (I do not know your hair routine - this is my standard honey lightening advice).
That should give you less drips.

Also let the mix with distilled water, instead of tap water, sit for 1 hour at room temperature, before applying it to your hair.

You should only need to leave it on your hair for 1 hour, with your hair pinned up and covered with plastic.

Islandgrrl
July 21st, 2008, 02:45 PM
I honeyed yesterday with okay results. I followed the directions, to the letter and used the same Western Family honey I've used before (same bottle).

I got good lightening results on the length, but from the scalp down about 4" it stayed really dark. I was careful to saturate my head really well at the roots, but I'm not seeing a difference there. Is there a procedure that's used for just lightening the "roots?"

Iz

ktani
July 21st, 2008, 03:15 PM
I honeyed yesterday with okay results. I followed the directions, to the letter and used the same Western Family honey I've used before (same bottle).

I got good lightening results on the length, but from the scalp down about 4" it stayed really dark. I was careful to saturate my head really well at the roots, but I'm not seeing a difference there. Is there a procedure that's used for just lightening the "roots?"

Iz

Islandgrrl

Thank you for reporting your new results.

This kind of result has been reported before.

I suggest that you apply the treatment on dry hair and leave some extra aside.

Then, before you pin up and cover your hair with plastic, apply more of the treatment to the root area with a tint, blush or pastry brush.

That is recommended application for specific areas.

mellie
July 21st, 2008, 03:22 PM
Kokuryu,

Your lightening is incredible and your hair is gorgeous!!!!

ktani
July 21st, 2008, 03:30 PM
Thank you!:)


Here's my BEFORE/AFTER picture:

http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

kokuryu

For some reason, I could not open this on the first try.
I could this time, no problem - my internet has been acting up all afternoon. I was sure that it was the extension png that was the problem.

Fantastic results, IMO.

I still stand by the distilled water and the 4 to 1 dilution - but this worked beautifully for you, so there is no argument.

I just think that recommendations, based on the research and successful reports, are preferable to follow.

I will add your results to the Pictures Post and your honey to the Successful Honeys List.

Islandgrrl
July 21st, 2008, 03:36 PM
Ktani,

Thanks for the advice. FWIW, I always apply to dry hair. I've found better results this way.

At a 4:1 dilution, my mixture is very, very wet and very, very drippy. Is this correct?

My method is to mix into a very large glass measuring cup, wait the requisite hour, and then dunk the length of my hair into the cup to saturate. Then I lean over a huge bowl and pour the remaining solution over my head, being careful to saturate everything. Having the bowl for the runoff and drips allows me to repour as many times as needed to saturate all my hair. Pin it up, add plastic, add towel, add good book and a one hour timer. I don't usually shampoo after, just rinse like a madwoman. I don't usually have issues with residue, either, just super moisturized and if I'm lucky, lighter hair!

Aside from the lightening, which is really the point, honey does do amazing things for my hair in terms of how moisturized it feels - it's awesome...better than anything else I've ever used.

I'll try again, probably tomorrow night, with a new raw blackberry honey I picked up this morning.

ktani
July 21st, 2008, 03:45 PM
Ktani,

Thanks for the advice. FWIW, I always apply to dry hair. I've found better results this way.

At a 4:1 dilution, my mixture is very, very wet and very, very drippy. Is this correct?

My method is to mix into a very large glass measuring cup, wait the requisite hour, and then dunk the length of my hair into the cup to saturate. Then I lean over a huge bowl and pour the remaining solution over my head, being careful to saturate everything. Having the bowl for the runoff and drips allows me to repour as many times as needed to saturate all my hair. Pin it up, add plastic, add towel, add good book and a one hour timer. I don't usually shampoo after, just rinse like a madwoman. I don't usually have issues with residue, either, just super moisturized and if I'm lucky, lighter hair!

Aside from the lightening, which is really the point, honey does do amazing things for my hair in terms of how moisturized it feels - it's awesome...better than anything else I've ever used.

I'll try again, probably tomorrow night, with a new raw blackberry honey I picked up this morning.

Islandgrrl

You are welcome.

It is your method that is causing the problem - you are getting full saturation on the length and ends and the treatment is running off your root area and pooling down, IMO.

And yes, it is supposed to be very liquid - it is 4 to 1 water to honey by weight.

Try applying the mix with a brush to the roots first.

Then use a squirt bottle with a wide nozzle, if you are adding spice, and completely saturate your hair from the middle to the ends.

Then reapply more to the top before you put your hair up.

ktani
July 21st, 2008, 05:43 PM
Thank you!:)


Here's my BEFORE/AFTER picture:

http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

An encore of just honey and water on virgin, middle blonde hair.

IMO, amazing results!

kokuryu
July 22nd, 2008, 01:49 AM
kokuryu

IMO, if you had no drips with your recipe, the honey was not fully diluted.

I think that you will get better results following the 4 to 1 dilution, by weight, next time and applying the treatment to dry hair that has no residues or oil, or anything with Vitamin C in it (I do not know your hair routine - this is my standard honey lightening advice).
That should give you less drips.

Also let the mix with distilled water, instead of tap water, sit for 1 hour at room temperature, before applying it to your hair.

You should only need to leave it on your hair for 1 hour, with your hair pinned up and covered with plastic.

Thank you, ktani!

I'm perfectly sure, that the honey was fully diluted. I used a really small amount of the mixture (approx. 7 tablespoons), thus there was no dripping. Then I put a bathing cup and a towel.

I apply the treatment to wet hair, as it produces more hydrogen peroxide that way (confirmed by a chemist), and my hair feels great and the colour is much lighter, I'm really satisfied :D.

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/4044/honeykokuryudx6.png

I hope the link works for you.

kokuryu
July 22nd, 2008, 02:01 AM
Kokuryu,

Your lightening is incredible and your hair is gorgeous!!!!


An encore of just honey and water on virgin, middle blonde hair.

IMO, amazing results!

Thank you very much!

ktani
July 22nd, 2008, 05:39 AM
koyuryu

Thank you for the extra link.

As I said, I was able, finally, to open the first one.

Your chemist is correct - if the treatment was not left to sit for 1 hour before being applied to the hair.

The treatment would need the hair to be wet to help produce peroxide.

Those were the first set of recommendations. I changed them to make it easier to apply the treatment and get the best possible results.

When the treatment is left to sit for 1 hour, at the 4 to 1 dilution by weight, before application, the peroxide produced by the honey is at full strengh and can be applied to dry hair.

"After 1 hour .... the maximum amount of hydrogen-peroxide is present."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ketol
July 22nd, 2008, 08:32 AM
I've spent 2 days reading through this whole thread. I did the honey recipe yesterday, left it on for an hour and got some brightening of my dark blonde hair. I'm excited to try it again...and again!

I have a question though, what about highligtening? Can I use this mixture to paint onto areas to do highlights? Has anyone tried it?? I haven't seen any posts stating that anyone has tried it. What do you all do for highlights? I used to highlight my hair about 1x a year, to just brighten it slightly and I hate having any regrowth from an "all-over" color, so that is why I prefer highlights.

Hints? Thoughts? Thanks! So glad I found this board a few weeks ago (though I was just able to finally register over this past weekend.) I'm learning SOO much~

ktani
July 22nd, 2008, 08:46 AM
I've spent 2 days reading through this whole thread. I did the honey recipe yesterday, left it on for an hour and got some brightening of my dark blonde hair. I'm excited to try it again...and again!

I have a question though, what about highligtening? Can I use this mixture to paint onto areas to do highlights? Has anyone tried it?? I haven't seen any posts stating that anyone has tried it. What do you all do for highlights? I used to highlight my hair about 1x a year, to just brighten it slightly and I hate having any regrowth from an "all-over" color, so that is why I prefer highlights.

Hints? Thoughts? Thanks! So glad I found this board a few weeks ago (though I was just able to finally register over this past weekend.) I'm learning SOO much~

Ketol

Welcome to LHC and honey!

Thank you for posting and reporting on your results.

How is the condition of your hair post honey lightening?

The full recommendations are easier to read in Article form here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=61

Yes, I see no reason why you cannot use honey lightening for hi-lighting specific areas.

The closest people have come to doing that is applying the treatment to specific areas but not as hi-lights, just to concentrate the treatment on areas that were darker and it has been reported to work.

I suggest that you mix the treatment, let it sit for 1 hour, all at room temperature and use a tint or blush brush to apply it to dry hair on the areas you want to lighten, cover them with foil, to keep them from getting the rest of the surrounding hair from getting wet, then pin up the rest of your hair, cover with plastic and leave in on for about an hour or so.

You may or may not need to use the plastic on top of the foil, but I would.

ketol
July 22nd, 2008, 10:00 AM
Hi and thank you for the ww :-)

That is what I was thinking of doing, just what you explained...doing certain areas with a brush, covering with foil and let it sit. I will try it next week and report back! (when my kids aren't here.... lol)

My hair is in great condition (for <i>me</i> anyway). When I first found the boards, I started trying the CWC and wow, my hair is loving it. I have/had very dry ends, but my scalp gets oily...and looked like crap, so I shampooed every day. I'm trying to get to every-other as a start..but I still get the greasy looking roots. YUCK. And with the summer humidity, oh boy, just makes it worse. But I will continue on.

Sorry, I got off on a tangent. My hair is soft, silky and shiny. It's LOOKING great, for the first time in many years and I'm loving the feel and look of it now. I'm fascinated reading all the wonderful info and I'll take what applies or may work for me and leave the rest. Baby steps!

Yesterday I did the Honey, VO5 Condish, tsp EVOO so it was a 1:4 ratio. My hair felt fantastic and though I wouldn't say it is lighter, it is definitely brighter, and shinier, so all in all I'm happy. I would try it again but use LESS of the condish (probably half) and the rest water and try that. Oh, and add in a spoonful of the Cinnamon.

Thank you for prompt and friendly response. If I EVER finish THIS thread, I'll move on to others! LOL.

ktani
July 22nd, 2008, 10:08 AM
Hi and thank you for the ww :-)

That is what I was thinking of doing, just what you explained...doing certain areas with a brush, covering with foil and let it sit. I will try it next week and report back! (when my kids aren't here.... lol)

My hair is in great condition (for <i>me</i> anyway). When I first found the boards, I started trying the CWC and wow, my hair is loving it. I have/had very dry ends, but my scalp gets oily...and looked like crap, so I shampooed every day. I'm trying to get to every-other as a start..but I still get the greasy looking roots. YUCK. And with the summer humidity, oh boy, just makes it worse. But I will continue on.

Sorry, I got off on a tangent. My hair is soft, silky and shiny. It's LOOKING great, for the first time in many years and I'm loving the feel and look of it now. I'm fascinated reading all the wonderful info and I'll take what applies or may work for me and leave the rest. Baby steps!

Yesterday I did the Honey, VO5 Condish, tsp EVOO so it was a 1:4 ratio. My hair felt fantastic and though I wouldn't say it is lighter, it is definitely brighter, and shinier, so all in all I'm happy. I would try it again but use LESS of the condish (probably half) and the rest water and try that. Oh, and add in a spoonful of the Cinnamon.

Thank you for prompt and friendly response. If I EVER finish THIS thread, I'll move on to others! LOL.

ketol

Thank you for your recipe and I am very pleased for you that your hair is now in such good condition.

You do not need to read this whole thread.

You just need the newest recommendations, in my signature or in the first post.

Conditioner is no longer recommended.

The 4 to 1 dilution is by weight. Honey is heavier than water.

1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water.
50 ml of honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.

Here is the short version of the recommendations, from the first post.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628)

I think that you will get better results following the new recommendations with the correct dilution, no conditioner and using distilled water.

I look forward to your new results.

Islandgrrl
July 22nd, 2008, 05:56 PM
Ktani, since you're the Goddess of Honey, I have a question.

I adore what honey does for my hair - even if the lightening effects are progressing slowly. The moisture and shine I get are well worth the efforts. So....

Can honey be used as a leave-in treatment without stickiness problems, and if so, how?

Iz

ktani
July 22nd, 2008, 06:06 PM
Ktani, since you're the Goddess of Honey, I have a question.

I adore what honey does for my hair - even if the lightening effects are progressing slowly. The moisture and shine I get are well worth the efforts. So....

Can honey be used as a leave-in treatment without stickiness problems, and if so, how?

Iz

Islandgrrl

I love the way you start a question, lol.

I only go so far as saying that I am a Honey Geek, lol.

Honey has been used successfully as a leave-in - by Viviane, who lived in honey, literally, 24/7, for months, lightening her hair with it and using this way too.

Originally posted by Viviane
"Besides, if you dampen your hair out a bit and then add a pearl size amount of honey to your palms, rub vigorously and then slide your palms to hair and comb, it&#180;s not sticky at all. It just keeps it all in place. Sticky happens with too much of the good stuff."
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1158943&postcount=1102 (http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1158943&postcount=1102)

Alley Cat
July 22nd, 2008, 06:20 PM
I have stopped lightening my hair for now. I put another colour in on Friday after getting sick of the greys coming in so much that even my hubby was noticing . The colour is lighter than the last one. I plan to continue using honey treatments not to lighten for now but I love the conditioning effect I get from them. So I plan to try using honey in conditioner not using the right measurements so I won't get lightening and maybe in the future I might try lightening again before I throw another colour in who knows. :shrug: Or I would even consider in a couple of weeks trying to lighten from where my hair is darker downwards though not sure how that would work out. The colour I put in was Auburn and the first couple of inches of my roots have come out much lighter and redder than the length.
Thanks for all your help ktani. :)

ktani
July 22nd, 2008, 06:31 PM
I have stopped lightening my hair for now. I put another colour in on Friday after getting sick of the greys coming in so much that even my hubby was noticing . The colour is lighter than the last one. I plan to continue using honey treatments not to lighten for now but I love the conditioning effect I get from them. So I plan to try using honey in conditioner not using the right measurements so I won't get lightening and maybe in the future I might try lightening again before I throw another colour in who knows. :shrug: Or I would even consider in a couple of weeks trying to lighten from where my hair is darker downwards though not sure how that would work out. The colour I put in was Auburn and the first couple of inches of my roots have come out much lighter and redder than the length.
Thanks for all your help ktani. :)

Alley Cat

You are most welcome.

If you plan on leaving the honey conditioner mix on for any length of time - like an hour - microwave the honey first, separately, over 10 seconds, under 1 minute.

That will destroy the enzyme that produces the peroxide.

Some people have reported that aside from making the honey runnier, it does not condition quite as well when microwaved.

An alternative to microwaving would be to add a few drops of raw potato juice, which contains catalase. It acts like Vitamin C, in terms of depleting the peroxide. No one I am aware of, has tried this.

If you leave the honey conditioner mix on for about 10-15 minutes, I do not believe that it will lighten very much at all.

A third option would be to use a rich conditioner. The extra conditioning ingredients, the waxes and film formers, should interfere with lightening.

Aussie Cleanse and Mend conditioner has been reported to do just that, very effectively.

Good luck.

Alley Cat
July 23rd, 2008, 04:16 AM
Alley Cat

You are most welcome.

If you plan on leaving the honey conditioner mix on for any length of time - like an hour - microwave the honey first, separately, over 10 seconds, under 1 minute.

That will destroy the enzyme that produces the peroxide.

Some people have reported that aside from making the honey runnier, it does not condition quite as well when microwaved.

An alternative to microwaving would be to add a few drops of raw potato juice, which contains catalase. It acts like Vitamin C, in terms of depleting the peroxide. No one I am aware of, has tried this.

If you leave the honey conditioner mix on for about 10-15 minutes, I do not believe that it will lighten very much at all.

A third option would be to use a rich conditioner. The extra conditioning ingredients, the waxes and film formers, should interfere with lightening.

Aussie Cleanse and Mend conditioner has been reported to do just that, very effectively.

Good luck.

Thank you for that. Actually I have already washed my hair today and I did a honey and conditioner treatment and I did microwave it mainly because it came out of the fridge and it was cold [ winter here and I'm a baby].
My hair doesn't feel as conditioned as it did with just honey and water. I will think on what to do next . I don't really want to use to rich conditioner as it would get too expensive . Might do some trial and error and see what happens. :)
It still feels conditioned maybe I am just being fussy. :rolleyes: I like honey. :D

ktani
July 23rd, 2008, 05:36 AM
Thank you for that. Actually I have already washed my hair today and I did a honey and conditioner treatment and I did microwave it mainly because it came out of the fridge and it was cold [ winter here and I'm a baby].
My hair doesn't feel as conditioned as it did with just honey and water. I will think on what to do next . I don't really want to use to rich conditioner as it would get too expensive . Might do some trial and error and see what happens. :)
It still feels conditioned maybe I am just being fussy. :rolleyes: I like honey. :D

Alley Cat

I was afraid of that - it has been reported to do that.

I would save the Jarrah honey for lightening. It should keep indefinitely, stored in a cool dark cupboard.

If you can get Aussie Cleanse and Mend Conditioner, you might not need to microwave regular honey.

The Aussie conditioner did not alllow lightening at least twice that I know of, in reports.

The other thing is that at 10 minutes or so, you should not get much lightening with most conditioners.

It is not enough time for the honey to produce that much peroxide, IMO.

Islandgrrl
July 23rd, 2008, 06:59 AM
Ktani, thanks for the info re: honey as a leave in. I'll give it a try and report back!

ktani
July 23rd, 2008, 07:03 AM
Ktani, thanks for the info re: honey as a leave in. I'll give it a try and report back!

Islandgrrl

You are very welcome.

Remember though, not to use too much.

From what I read, that is the key to it not being sticky.

chloeishere
July 23rd, 2008, 02:27 PM
Hi again, ktani! I don't know if you remember, but I sent you a pm while your computer was down, mentioning that I was thinking of trying another honey lightening treatment, because using cassia leaves my hair darker than I like. Also, because I am a very curious person, and I wanted to see if the new recipes would work better on me than the old!

Here is the recipe I tried yesterday night:
1 tablespoon (0.75 ounce) honey-- Nature's Best Organic Honey. This is the same stuff I used originally, I finished off the bottle. Keep in mind that the honey is about 10 months older then when I first used it to lighten, though. It was NOT crystallized.
3/8 cup (3 ounces) room temperature tap water. I didn't have distilled, and I didn't want to lighten my hair too much, so I decided to stick with tap.
1 teaspoon cinnamon (I don't have cardamom, and I use cinnamon in my cassia treatments, so I know I do not have allergies to it)

The ingredients were stirred together, then put in a dark drawer for one hour (chose a drawer because I know peroxide can be deactivated by light, though maybe it's just sunlight). I then applied to my hair (about 24 hours after washing, the only thing in my hair was one drop of camellia oil), applying to the roots with an old, clean foundation brush, then applying the rest by dunking my hair into the cup. I put my hair in a bun with an aquapearl ketylo, covered with a plastic bag, and then with an opague shower cap. This was left on for about 55 minutes.
The mixture dripped down my neck a lot, and was very sticky when dried.

I washed my hair afterwards, and found the cinnamon to be pretty annoying to wash out-- I personally think if I were to do future honey treatments (I don't plan to), I would probably stop using cinnamon, and stick with an oil booster, or just honey and water. The honey and water rinsed out very easily, but I was still pulling out little pieces of cinnamon when rinsing my final conditioner.

Condition:
I finished with my normal leave-in, camellia oil-- but just a touch more than normal. My hair is very slightly dry today, but looks very nice, low frizz, and feels perfectly normal and healthy.

I tried to keep as many variables constant as possible in the pictures-- same lighting, same distance from camera, same shirt. I have some funky looking bun waves in the before picture that makes my hemline look weird. I used a wide tooth comb on my hair several times while drying to try and keep waves to a minimum, as they would disguise things a bit. My hair is normally straighter after bunning, so I tried to minimize waves.
Here are the pictures:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/Honey1.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/Honey2.jpg

In comparison to my first honey treatment-- I believe it was honey + conditioner + extra virgin olive oil. I no longer remember exact proportions, but I believe it was 1:1:1, left on overnight in a shower cap.
Before and After
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1439c.jpghttp://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1457c.jpg

I am disregarding the second (accidental) lightening, as I'm really not sure what happened there. I did it using a modified SMT, with Fox's Shea Conditioning Cream added, but otherwise everything pretty much following the normal recipe. I had aloe gel in the recipe, so I don't understand now (with vitamin C in the aloe deactivating the honey enzymes that produce hydrogen peroxide) how it lightened, let alone how it lightened so signifigantly.
However, this was the color that resulted from that:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1728c.jpg

ktani
July 23rd, 2008, 02:53 PM
Hi again, ktani! I don't know if you remember, but I sent you a pm while your computer was down, mentioning that I was thinking of trying another honey lightening treatment, because using cassia leaves my hair darker than I like. Also, because I am a very curious person, and I wanted to see if the new recipes would work better on me than the old!

Here is the recipe I tried yesterday night:
1 tablespoon (0.75 ounce) honey-- Nature's Best Organic Honey. This is the same stuff I used originally, I finished off the bottle. Keep in mind that the honey is about 10 months older then when I first used it to lighten, though. It was NOT crystallized.
3/8 cup (3 ounces) room temperature tap water. I didn't have distilled, and I didn't want to lighten my hair too much, so I decided to stick with tap.
1 teaspoon cinnamon (I don't have cardamom, and I use cinnamon in my cassia treatments, so I know I do not have allergies to it)

The ingredients were stirred together, then put in a dark drawer for one hour (chose a drawer because I know peroxide can be deactivated by light, though maybe it's just sunlight). I then applied to my hair (about 24 hours after washing, the only thing in my hair was one drop of camellia oil), applying to the roots with an old, clean foundation brush, then applying the rest by dunking my hair into the cup. I put my hair in a bun with an aquapearl ketylo, covered with a plastic bag, and then with an opague shower cap. This was left on for about 55 minutes.
The mixture dripped down my neck a lot, and was very sticky when dried.

I washed my hair afterwards, and found the cinnamon to be pretty annoying to wash out-- I personally think if I were to do future honey treatments (I don't plan to), I would probably stop using cinnamon, and stick with an oil booster, or just honey and water. The honey and water rinsed out very easily, but I was still pulling out little pieces of cinnamon when rinsing my final conditioner.

Condition:
I finished with my normal leave-in, camellia oil-- but just a touch more than normal. My hair is very slightly dry today, but looks very nice, low frizz, and feels perfectly normal and healthy.

I tried to keep as many variables constant as possible in the pictures-- same lighting, same distance from camera, same shirt. I have some funky looking bun waves in the before picture that makes my hemline look weird. I used a wide tooth comb on my hair several times while drying to try and keep waves to a minimum, as they would disguise things a bit. My hair is normally straighter after bunning, so I tried to minimize waves.
Here are the pictures:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/Honey1.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/Honey2.jpg

In comparison to my first honey treatment-- I believe it was honey + conditioner + extra virgin olive oil. I no longer remember exact proportions, but I believe it was 1:1:1, left on overnight in a shower cap.
Before and After
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1439c.jpghttp://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1457c.jpg

I am disregarding the second (accidental) lightening, as I'm really not sure what happened there. I did it using a modified SMT, with Fox's Shea Conditioning Cream added, but otherwise everything pretty much following the normal recipe. I had aloe gel in the recipe, so I don't understand now (with vitamin C in the aloe deactivating the honey enzymes that produce hydrogen peroxide) how it lightened, let alone how it lightened so signifigantly.
However, this was the color that resulted from that:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1728c.jpg

chloeishere

You always ask if I remember you.

Of course I do. I thought that I answered all pms when my computer was restored. I am sorry if I did not respond to yours.
Thank you for posting your new results, pictures and the condition of your hair.

Thank you also for taking such care to be so precise.

I can see some lightening.

I think that you would have possibly gotten more with distilled water.

As for your calculations, I get a different result.

.75 oz = 21.26 g x 4 = 85.4 = 1/4 cup for the water.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Vitamin C does not deactivate the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Microwaving honey over 10 seconds, under 1 minute, destroys the enzyme.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted when it does that.

If the honey in question produced enough peroxide, it could and obviously did, oxidize the Vitamin C in the aloe gel (it depends on how much gel you used and how much honey) and still have enough left over to lighten your hair.

chloeishere
July 23rd, 2008, 03:22 PM
chloeishere

You always ask if I remember you.

Well, I wouldn't want to presume! :D



...
As for your calculations, I get a different result.

.75 oz = 21.26 g x 4 = 85.4 = 1/4 cup for the water.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Hmm, interesting. I did not convert to grams, simply stuck with ounces... 0.75 ounce x 4 = 3 ounces. That might have been a problem!



Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted when it does that.

If the honey in question produced enough peroxide, it could and obviously did, oxidize the Vitamin C in the aloe gel (it depends on how much gel you used and how much honey) and still have enough left over to lighten your hair.

Hmm, I didn't use much aloe, probably more honey. However, it still doesn't seem like enough (especially given the use of conditioner) to explain the amount of lightening I got. One of life's little mysteries. :confused:

ktani
July 23rd, 2008, 03:31 PM
Well, I wouldn't want to presume! :D


Hmm, interesting. I did not convert to grams, simply stuck with ounces... 0.75 ounce x 4 = 3 ounces. That might have been a problem!



Hmm, I didn't use much aloe, probably more honey. However, it still doesn't seem like enough (especially given the use of conditioner) to explain the amount of lightening I got. One of life's little mysteries. :confused:

chloeishere

You are always very nice and polite, IMO.

Here is your original post that you linked in Honey II
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1435406&postcount=7

And here is the post that gives the recipe for the shea butter recipe you mixed.
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1435672&postcount=471

You "eyeballed" the recipe but added extra conditioner at one point which, IMO, gave you extra water to further dilute the honey. Honey and conditioner has been reported to lighten. That was the basis of the last 4 Honey threads and the first part of this one.

Conditioner in honey lightening though is unpredictable (conditioner ingredients that can interfere with lightening and the lack of enough water) and the reported results were much much slower and much more slight in most cases, than with just water and now distilled water.

The shea butter mix was not heavy enough to interfere with the lightening.

The single biggest difference to honey lightening recipes now, is the 4 to 1 dilution by weight of water to honey. Honey is heavier than water.

Next is no Vitamin C, then no conditioner and lastly, distilled water.

Alley Cat
July 24th, 2008, 05:03 AM
Alley Cat

I was afraid of that - it has been reported to do that.

I would save the Jarrah honey for lightening. It should keep indefinitely, stored in a cool dark cupboard.

If you can get Aussie Cleanse and Mend Conditioner, you might not need to microwave regular honey.

The Aussie conditioner did not alllow lightening at least twice that I know of, in reports.

The other thing is that at 10 minutes or so, you should not get much lightening with most conditioners.

It is not enough time for the honey to produce that much peroxide, IMO.

Thanks ktani . I have saved the jarrah I have other cheaper honey around and plan to keep the jarrah and have it stored in a cupboard . It has a used by date of May 2010 . I don't recall seeing Aussie Cleanse and Mend Conditioner:shrug:
My hair feels nicer tonight than yesterday go figure. :)

ktani
July 24th, 2008, 08:02 AM
Alley Cat

You are welcome.

Good luck.

Please update on how things go.

ktani
July 24th, 2008, 08:12 AM
chloeishere

I took another look at the mystery recipe, in case I overlooked anything.

Both shea butter and jojoba oil have peroxide values, though combined, it would not be as high as extra virgin olive oil can be, or anywhere near as high as most honeys can have.

None of the honey lightening boosters, including the spices, has a peroxide value as high as most honeys can have.

I think the peroxide provided by the jojoba oil and shea butter aided the honey by boosting it, helping it deal with the Vitamin C from the aloe gel and lighten your hair - so the shea mix did help with the results.

kokuryu
July 24th, 2008, 08:22 AM
2 days ago, I did my 3rd honey treatment (same recipe: honey and tap water).
Here you can see the result:
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

ktani
July 24th, 2008, 08:29 AM
2 days ago, I did my 3rd honey treatment (same recipe: honey and tap water).
Here you can see the result:
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu

Fantastic results, IMO.

How is the condition of your hair after the 3rd treatment?

kokuryu
July 24th, 2008, 12:00 PM
kokuryu

Fantastic results, IMO.

How is the condition of your hair after the 3rd treatment?

It did absolutely NO damage to my hair. It's so soft and shiny, like never before.

ktani
July 24th, 2008, 12:06 PM
kokuryu

Thank you for the quick reply.

I have added your new results to the Pictures Post.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
July 24th, 2008, 12:30 PM
2 days ago, I did my 3rd honey treatment (same recipe: honey and tap water).
Here you can see the result:
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu

An encore of your beautiful results!

kokuryu
July 24th, 2008, 12:43 PM
Thank you very much, ktani!

ktani
July 24th, 2008, 12:49 PM
kokuryu

You are most welcome!

I am off to correct the spelling of your name in the Pictures Post.

For some reason, I keep misspelling it.

It is not a difficult name to spell, IMO.

It is me.

ETA: Corrected!

chloeishere
July 24th, 2008, 02:48 PM
Kokuryu does have amazing results!
I do think that probably the tap water did have an adverse effect on the lightening. However, I was not going for a LOT of lightening, which is why I didn't bother trying to find some distilled. I also figured, because we have extremely tasty tap water in St. Louis, that our water is probably not as minerallized as most in the US. It does contain a fair bit of Calcium ions though, most likely. Which would certainly be enough to do *something*.

Perhaps another reason that the accidental second lightening treatment worked so well was because the water in the conditioner I used would be about as pure as distilled-- considering that the conditioners I used contained disodium EDTA, which is a chelator and would remove any metal ions within the conditioner. Assuming that the shea butter and jojoba oil were enough to counteract the vitamin C in the aloe gel, the mixture would have been well diluted, and have plenty of distilled water...

It's all food for thought!

ktani
July 24th, 2008, 03:01 PM
Kokuryu does have amazing results!
I do think that probably the tap water did have an adverse effect on the lightening. However, I was not going for a LOT of lightening, which is why I didn't bother trying to find some distilled. I also figured, because we have extremely tasty tap water in St. Louis, that our water is probably not as minerallized as most in the US. It does contain a fair bit of Calcium ions though, most likely. Which would certainly be enough to do *something*.

Perhaps another reason that the accidental second lightening treatment worked so well was because the water in the conditioner I used would be about as pure as distilled-- considering that the conditioners I used contained disodium EDTA, which is a chelator and would remove any metal ions within the conditioner. Assuming that the shea butter and jojoba oil were enough to counteract the vitamin C in the aloe gel, the mixture would have been well diluted, and have plenty of distilled water...

It's all food for thought!

chloeishere

We are on the same page with the analysis.

Thank you for adding that the conditioner contained EDTA.

Yes, IMO, that would play a role too.

I did uderstand that you were testing the new recommendations this time, and were not looking to lighten very much.

kokuryu obviously has great tap water. She also uses a bathing cap, not a plastic bag, which ensures that her hair stays wet while the treatment is on her hair.

The primary metals in tap water that can negatively affect hydrogen peroxide are iron, copper and manganese.

The reason I recommend only distilled water, is the same reason in part, that I no longer recommend conditioner.

I am trying to eliminate as many problematic variables as I can, to make honey lightening easier.

That is why I also now recommend letting a treatment sit at room temperature for 1 hour, before application.

This lets the honey produce its maximum peroxide value in advance.

There were reported problems of plastic slipping, and parts of the hair drying, when the treatment was applied right away, and the hair had to be kept wet to produce peroxide, while on the hair.

My goal is to streamline the process, to get optimal results as quickly and comfortably as possible.

Alley Cat
July 24th, 2008, 06:18 PM
Alley Cat

You are welcome.

Good luck.

Please update on how things go.
Thanks will do. :)

kokuryu
July 25th, 2008, 06:12 AM
Hi,
here are the parameters of the tap water I use:

pH: 7,70
Nitrates: 6,23 g NO 3/dm3 (standard < or = 50)
Iron: 0,01 mgFe/dm3 (standard < or = 0,2)
Manganese: 0,01 mgMn/dm3 (standard < or = 0,05)
Chloride: 39,9 mgCl/dm3 (standard < or = 250)
Sulphur: 83,7 mgSO43-/dm3 (standard < or = 250)
Fluoride: 0,15 mgF-/dm3 (standard < or = 1,5)

There are very low levels of primary metals, thus they do not affect hydrogen peroxide.

mellie
July 25th, 2008, 06:29 AM
The bathing cap is a fabulous idea, that would be good for henna too!

ktani
July 25th, 2008, 07:08 AM
Hi,
here are the parameters of the tap water I use:

pH: 7,70
Nitrates: 6,23 g NO 3/dm3 (standard < or = 50)
Iron: 0,01 mgFe/dm3 (standard < or = 0,2)
Manganese: 0,01 mgMn/dm3 (standard < or = 0,05)
Chloride: 39,9 mgCl/dm3 (standard < or = 250)
Sulphur: 83,7 mgSO43-/dm3 (standard < or = 250)
Fluoride: 0,15 mgF-/dm3 (standard < or = 1,5)

There are very low levels of primary metals, thus they do not affect hydrogen peroxide.

kokuryu

Thank you for this.

You have the perfect tap water for honey lightening, IMO.

And I think that your use of a bathing cap is innovative and brilliant.

Your results certainly show the efficiency of both, IMO.

Most tap water is not as good as yours, IMO, in terms of mineral content.

kokuryu
July 25th, 2008, 07:23 AM
kokuryu
And I think that your use of a bathing cap is innovative and brilliant.

Thanks.
I have use a bathing cap before for henna and amla treatments.

ktani
July 25th, 2008, 07:29 AM
kokuryu

Your mention and use of the bathing cap is the first time I have read about it on these boards for treatments.

With a bathing cap, a honey lightening treatment can be used right away, on wet hair, instead of letting it sit for 1 hour in advance of application, because the cap will ensure that the hair stays wet enough for the honey to keep producing peroxide, much better than plastic bags or wraps.

Thanks to you, a bathing cap provides a reliable, tested option, IMO.



I recommend distilled water over tap water for honey lightening. Your tap water is excellent but not all tap water is equal.

I do not honey lighten. I cover my grey/white with catnip tea but the tap water where I live, for example can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures.

Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm



Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam for testing honey for its peroxide value. When I researched why and found that certain metals can decompose hydrogen peroxide, I understand why it is used.

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey

Technical performance:

Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
July 25th, 2008, 07:09 PM
An encore of the updated Pictures Post
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
July 25th, 2008, 07:44 PM
Here is a shortened version of the updated recommendations, in my signature.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628

ktani
July 26th, 2008, 08:55 PM
The Honey Article, an easier to read version of the post in my signature.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=61

ignis
July 27th, 2008, 04:06 AM
This sounds really interesting. It's a bit to much for me to view all 102 pages ;-) . So could anyone tell me: what's the perfect method to bleach my henna/indigo parts of my hair? I think I've now 4 inches of my own dark to medium blond haircolour, but i want to see more!! Or is the only option to let my hair grow and then cut the dark parts off.

ktani
July 27th, 2008, 07:23 AM
This sounds really interesting. It's a bit to much for me to view all 102 pages ;-) . So could anyone tell me: what's the perfect method to bleach my henna/indigo parts of my hair? I think I've now 4 inches of my own dark to medium blond haircolour, but i want to see more!! Or is the only option to let my hair grow and then cut the dark parts off.

Hi ignis and welcome to LHC and Honey.

Here is the Honey Article to start you off.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=61

It has all of the details you need to get started.

It is just 1 post long.

If you have any questions, after reading it, I will be happy to answer them.

There is a shorter version too, here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628

Here are some pictures of results to look at.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
July 27th, 2008, 11:09 AM
From everything I have read about it, soap nut liquid used to wash hair, clothes etc. leaves no residue and is gentle, depending on the concentration one makes.

Used as a shampoo, I do not believe that it would be a problem for honey lightening or interfere with it, causing build-up.

ktani
July 28th, 2008, 10:58 AM
I researched aritha and soap nuts in this thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=8449

ktani
July 29th, 2008, 10:26 AM
Latest from the soap nut shells thread. Understanding how things work makes it easier to use them properly, IMO.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=209321&postcount=91

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=209364&postcount=92

ktani
July 29th, 2008, 01:16 PM
Information on Jarrah honey, known for its high peroxide value, and Jarrah honey suppliers.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

ktani
July 30th, 2008, 06:00 AM
The newest blondes - reports resulting from honey lightening, from the Pictures Post #15, in my signature.
[/URL]

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765)

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
[URL]http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

ktani
July 30th, 2008, 06:39 AM
Honey lightening on hennaed and henndigoed hair - results reported, from the Pictures Post #15 in my signature.

mellie - latest pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

GlennaGirl - on henndigoed hair - the 4 to 1 dilution with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

DolphinPrincess - finally getting results - on henndigoed hair with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cardamom, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

ktani
July 30th, 2008, 07:10 AM
More results reported on hennaed and hendigoed hair from the Pictures Post
[/URL]
LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176471&postcount=1586)

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and cinnamon - no conditioner
[URL]http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176850&postcount=1602

wintersun99 - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=177909&postcount=1610

ktani
July 30th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Short version of the recommendations in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water).

3. Use the 4 to 1 dilution (it is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 ml honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time, except herbal tea if used, that is cooled to room temperature before adding any other ingredients. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
July 30th, 2008, 07:45 PM
Dilution, residue, rinses, and Vitamin C use, as well as the honey can affect honey lightening results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2125&page=14

dontcallmejessi
July 30th, 2008, 08:14 PM
Thank you for all your help! Just one more question, I thought you said that the peroxide effect only occurs within the first one hour after combining water and honey together. So why would we want to let it sit on the counter for one hour before applying? Or did I understand that wrong? Oh and I only need to let it sit if applying to wet hair?

ktani
July 30th, 2008, 08:23 PM
Thank you for all your help! Just one more question, I thought you said that the peroxide effect only occurs within the first one hour after combining water and honey together. So why would we want to let it sit on the counter for one hour before applying? Or did I understand that wrong? Oh and I only need to let it sit if applying to wet hair?

You are most welcome.

With the 4 to 1 dilution, a honey will produce its maximum peroxide value in 1 hour.

The reason I suggest letting it sit for 1 hour in advance of application, on dry hair, is that people were having problems with the plastic and the old method (using it right away on wet hair)) - the plastic slipped, hair was drying - which means that the honey would stop producing peroxide.

A bathing cap, with the treatment used right away on wet hair - a brilliant innovation by kokuryu IMO, as per her results, prevents that.

But by letting the treatment sit you are applying it at full strength. You are still getting the hair wet - but keeping it wet is less critical - the maximum amount of peroxide has already been produced.

The dry hair method is to help with drips - you should get less drips on dry hair.

The treatment should be at full strength after 1 hour for quite a while, so letting it sit in advance is not a problem, IMO.

dontcallmejessi
July 30th, 2008, 08:39 PM
Ok thank you for clearing that up. I will try it again tomorrow.

ktani
July 30th, 2008, 08:42 PM
Ok thank you for clearing that up. I will try it again tomorrow.

dontcallmejessi

You are very welcome.

Good luck!

And please update how things go.

ktani
July 31st, 2008, 05:49 AM
dontcallmejessi

More of an explanation on honeys

There are at least 3 types of clover that can be in a clover honey for example - that depends on the brand - and which plants the bees were exposed to - the beekeepers set the hives down in different fields as the plants bloom.

mellie used a clover honey for Mellie's Mix - and got no lightening.

The same recipe and method with an alfalfa honey - worked beautifully.

The Successful Honeys List has brands of clover honey that have been reported to produce good results.

If you still get no results with the one you have after making recipe and method changes - it may just not produce enough peroxide.

ktani
July 31st, 2008, 06:11 AM
I am doing a survey of honey lightening, on the reported results in the Pictures Post and baq henna.

For her older results, mellie had used baq henna once or twice.

"mellie - from an older Honey thread - on henndigoed hair - the 4 to 1 dilution - no peroxide boosters and no conditioner "
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224


bizarrogirl used baq henna

"bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon"
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586


and so did soleluna.

"soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner"
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375


I made notes on that and will continue to as I am notified, in the Pictures Post and other posts with Pictures Post results.

So, for those in doubt - honey lightening can, and has been reported, to lighten baq henna.

ktani
July 31st, 2008, 10:35 AM
More baq henna survey results.

"GlennaGirl - on henndigoed hair ("Catherine's (tapdancinglizard) henna. The indigo was from her, too") - the 4 to 1 dilution with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
"I'm really glad now that I did all the honey-ings. That worked well for lightening. I can relax now and just re-henna as roots come in...whew. ."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

Jasmine19
July 31st, 2008, 10:28 PM
How effecting is honey for dry/damaged hair???

ktani
July 31st, 2008, 11:01 PM
How effecting is honey for dry/damaged hair???

Jasmine19

Honey lightening has not been reported to further damage already damaged hair.

It has been reported to be very conditioning.

If there is honey residue, the hair will feel dry until the residue is shampooed out.

wintersun99
August 1st, 2008, 11:02 AM
How effecting is honey for dry/damaged hair???

I just wanted to second Ktani on the conditioning benefits of honey! My hair is recovering from severe damage (especially the ends) and a 50:50 honey/conditioner mix is by far, the best conditioner.

Remember though, that is not the mix for lightening. The 4:1 honey/liquid ratio is the one to use for this. This method is also quite conditioning, just much drippier :D

ktani
August 1st, 2008, 11:17 AM
wintersun99

Thank you

Yes, the 2 treatments are very different.

Conditioner is not recommended for honey lightening but works beautifully with honey in a conditioning treatment.

To not lighten, microwave the honey separately, over 10 seconds, under 1 minute or use a very thick, rich conditioner, like Aussie Cleanse and Mend.

Microwaving destroys the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.

Heavy conditioners can and have been reported to interfere with lightening but can still allow some lightening.

Jasmine19
August 1st, 2008, 03:44 PM
For how long should the honey and conditioner be kept in the hair???

Jasmine19
August 1st, 2008, 03:45 PM
What should be the proportion when using honey+conditioner?

ktani
August 1st, 2008, 03:59 PM
Jasmine19

2 parts conditioner, 1 part honey or 50:50.
Leave it on the hair 20 minutes to 1 hour.

Jasmine19
August 1st, 2008, 04:57 PM
Thanks ktani :)

ktani
August 1st, 2008, 05:08 PM
Jasmine 19

You are welcome.

Don't forget to microwave the honey if you want to prevent any chance of lightening.

ktani
August 3rd, 2008, 07:21 AM
Honey and H. pylori - Note: thyme honey is not recommended for honey lightening because it has high levels of Vitamin C.

Thyme honey effective in eliminating H. pylori in vitro
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=131103&postcount=1086 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=131103&postcount=1086)

Method of treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=131188&postcount=1087 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=131188&postcount=1087)

Buy thyme honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=131301&postcount=1088 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=131301&postcount=1088)

ktani
August 3rd, 2008, 08:35 AM
Short version of the recommendations in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water).

3. Use the 4 to 1 dilution (it is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time, except herbal tea if used, that is cooled to room temperature before adding any other ingredients. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
August 4th, 2008, 03:34 PM
Shampoo has been reported to be more effective in removing honey residue than vinegar rinses.

This may be why. I cannot acces the rest of the article but the information necessary is in the description - the polysaccharides - they can build-up themselves. Polysaccharides coat hair. I had build-up from German chamomile, which contains pollysaccharides and left a coating on my hair over time, leaving it dry. I was using a very strong chamomile tea, 8-10 tea bags, at the time, each time after I washed my hair.

Food Chemistry : Antioxidant activity of vinegar melanoidins ... (http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0308814606004924)
Vinegar made from grain is rich in polysaccharides, phenolic compounds and protein, which undergo profound molecular changes during decoction and storing ...
linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0308814606004924 - Similar pages (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/search?hl=en&pwst=1&q=related:linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0308814606004924) - Note this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/)

White vinegar is usually made from grain.

Apple cider vinegar contains pectin, which contains polysaccarides.

This may also explain why vinegar rinses unless they are very diluted, can make hair dry.

Jasmine19
August 4th, 2008, 03:39 PM
While using honey and water combination the hair does develop an auburn kind of a color and gets shine too???

ktani
August 4th, 2008, 03:51 PM
While using honey and water combination the hair does develop an auburn kind of a color and gets shine too???

Jasmine19

In terms of honey lightening, honey and water can lighten through stages.

It depends on the starting colour of the hair, the honey, recipe, method and dilution.

Several darker shades, on people who honey lightened, went from brown and dark blonde to golden and lighter blonde, without red.

With any lightening, the hair can go through stages - typically dark brown, black - to brown - to red - to gold - to blonde.

See HalcyonDays, Jan in ID, and kokuryu results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=216615&postcount=1846

Jasmine19
August 4th, 2008, 04:14 PM
Shampooing after honey+conditioner is okay? Or just cold water rinse is fine?

ktani
August 4th, 2008, 04:23 PM
Shampooing after honey+conditioner is okay? Or just cold water rinse is fine?

Jasmine19

Rinsing is fine - you only need to shampoo if your hair feels dry afterward - a sign of honey residue.

Different honeys leave different levels of residue.

Some leave next to none.

Jasmine19
August 4th, 2008, 04:33 PM
Thanks Ktani :)

ktani
August 4th, 2008, 04:35 PM
Roman and German chamomile share many similar constituents.
http://www.innvista.com/HEALTH/herbs/chamomil.htm

Roman chamomile contains resin, instead of polysaccharides.

"The flower-heads of Anthemis nobilis, Linn&#233; ....
Common Names: Roman Chamomile ....
Principal Constituents. .... stimulating oil .... resin .... tannin.
http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/felter/anthemis-nobi.html

I came across this the other day, which explains to my why chamomile tea is not that conditioning - not that much oil is found in the tea - only 7 mg of oil per litre.

“The aromatic and polyphenolic composition of Roman camomile tea.
Only traces of essential oil .... recovered in tea (7 mg/l).”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14693217?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14693217?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

ktani
August 5th, 2008, 06:13 AM
Thanks Ktani :)

Jasmine19

You are most welcome.

wintersun99
August 5th, 2008, 09:29 AM
Here is where I started back in Oct. '07

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/009.jpg

Here is in July '07

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/006.jpg

ktani
August 5th, 2008, 10:02 AM
Update Photos

Taken yesterday at the same time, interesting color differences, no? As you can see, the Indigo is holding on strongly (on the outer layer) of my hair (especially the sides, not so much in the back) but all of the hair on the underneith layers has lightened/faded nicely. That is a fresh henna layer, I applied 2 days ago. Prior to that it was even slightly more faded, but kinda dull in color. The first picture is my greatest annoyance as you can see, I'm having great difficulty removing the Indigo from the "outer layer on the sides" of my hair. However, the Indigo is not holding on as strongly in the "back" of my hair. Happily, the Indigo doesn't always appear that dark in the sun.

Mix is still:
3/4 cup distilled water
2 Tablespoon honey (Clover honey in the Bear Bottle)
1 Tablespoon cinnamon

Condition is still:
Shiney and soft. I've been using this mix about 1-2x a week.


http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/002-1.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/006-1.jpg

wintersun99

Thank you for the updated, picture, the recipe and information on the condition of your hair.

WOW, that is some difference compared to your old results - a very definite lightening underneath.

Interesting that the outer layer is holding into the indigo, while the underneath and back has faded so much.

It sounds to me as if the outer layer is drying faster than the underneath, and the treatment is not as effective in those areas.

I suggest 2 things.

1. Regardless of whether you let the treatment sit for 1 hour before applying it, apply extra treatment to the outer layer at the end of your application and the sides, where you have the problem.

2. Use a bathing cap to cover your hair after the application. It should help keep all the moisture in better for the hour the honey lightening treatment is on your hair. I do not think if you let the treatment sit for 1 hour in advance of application, that this is necessary, but it cannot hurt to try it.

ETA: Thank you for editing in the most current photos, showing your most recent results and the information on the condition of your hair. I can really see the difference in the lightening and the indigo letting go in the upper layers. Nice work!

wintersun99
August 5th, 2008, 10:27 AM
I should add that the darker Indigo'd color is the color ALL of my hair USED to be, but unfortunately I lost the pics that showed where I was when I started this process. Just imagine if you will, that dark black on my entire head!

I also need to clarify that the Indigo (eventhough the picture seems to look this way) is NOT adhering to my full length (on the sides) but kinda right in the middle-ends (not roots-ears) this is also where I have short layers due to the bad bleaching incident. This is where the MOST damage occurred and that is why we're seeing fading everywhere but there... I will continue to work on it, but the more it grows past my chin the less concerned I am :)

ktani
August 5th, 2008, 10:32 AM
I should add that the darker Indigo'd color is the color ALL of my hair USED to be, but unfortunately I lost the pics that showed where I was when I started this process. Just imagine if you will, that dark black on my entire head!

I also need to clarify that the Indigo (eventhough the picture seems to look this way) is NOT adhering to my full length (on the sides) but kinda right in the middle-ends (not roots-ears) this is also where I have short layers due to the bad bleaching incident. This is where the MOST damage occurred and that is why we're seeing fading everywhere but there... I will continue to work on it, but the more it grows past my chin the less concerned I am :)

wintersun99

Thank you for the clarification.

Is this honey the new one that you mentioned that you were going to buy?

And if so, where is the big bear bottle from, whose brand, please?

Just checking and I want to add it to the Successful Honeys List.

wintersun99
August 5th, 2008, 10:33 AM
yes - I changed honey from last month to this month - but I will have to check the exact brand, I just remember the "clover" part of it. I'll edit this post with the name - tonight.

ETA: Ktani, I did NOT let the mix set 1 hr. before applying, but I have been leaving it on for 2+ hours. However, I am still aiming for a few shades lighter so I will be preparing and letting the mix sit for an hour before applying, going forward. Will take another picture in a month :)

ktani
August 5th, 2008, 10:41 AM
wintersun99

I should have asked this first.

Have you been letting the treatment sit for an hour at room temperature, in advance of application?

I still think that the bathing cap might be a good idea for you anyway.

Using a bathing cap is kokuryu"s brilliant idea. It works better than plastic if a treatment is not left to sit in advance of application and it might just help you in either case.

ktani
August 5th, 2008, 11:00 AM
Updated Pictures Post

Here are links to some pictures of Honey thread, honey lightening results.
Note: A number of these results were done before the 4 to 1 dilution was corrected, a treatment was recommended to be left to sit for 1 hour before being appplied, and distilled water used.


On blonde hair

firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution and after with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

brok3nwings - on brassy hair from and old semi and acv red/gold tones - 4 to 1 dilution and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98244&postcount=503

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=99995&postcount=516

brok3nwings - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98410&postcount=505

Minx - from an older Honey thread - virgin hair with the old dilution recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=29214&postcount=72

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801



On medium shades of hair

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635



On dark hair

Maluhia and Viviane - from an older Honey thread with the old dilution recipes
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

mellie - from an older Honey thread - on henndigoed hair (baq henna used once or twice) - the 4 to 1 dilution - no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

mellie - latest pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

nayver - on naturally black hair with faded hi-lights - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

GlennaGirl - on henndigoed hair ("Catherine's (tapdancinglizard) henna. The indigo was from her, too") - the 4 to 1 dilution with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

DolphinPrincess - finally getting results - on henndigoed hair with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cardamom, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with the old 4 to1 dilution, ground cinnamon and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119360&postcount=867

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 3 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176427&postcount=1583

LadyPolaris - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176471&postcount=1586

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176850&postcount=1602

wintersun99 - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=177909&postcount=1610

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

ktani
August 5th, 2008, 07:57 PM
yes - I changed honey from last month to this month - but I will have to check the exact brand, I just remember the "clover" part of it. I'll edit this post with the name - tonight.

ETA: Ktani, I did NOT let the mix set 1 hr. before applying, but I have been leaving it on for 2+ hours. However, I am still aiming for a few shades lighter so I will be preparing and letting the mix sit for an hour before applying, going forward. Will take another picture in a month :)

wintersun99

Thank you for the additional information.

So as the top layers of your hair dried, the honey lightening treatment stopped producing peroxide - and the indigo did not lighten IMO, while the layers underneath remained wet and the indigo did lighten.

ktani
August 5th, 2008, 08:14 PM
yes - I changed honey from last month to this month - but I will have to check the exact brand, I just remember the "clover" part of it. I'll edit this post with the name - tonight.

ETA: Ktani, I did NOT let the mix set 1 hr. before applying, but I have been leaving it on for 2+ hours. However, I am still aiming for a few shades lighter so I will be preparing and letting the mix sit for an hour before applying, going forward. Will take another picture in a month :)


Update Photos

Taken yesterday at the same time, interesting color differences, no? As you can see, the Indigo is holding on strongly (on the outer layer) of my hair (especially the sides, not so much in the back) but all of the hair on the underneith layers has lightened/faded nicely. That is a fresh henna layer, I applied 2 days ago. Prior to that it was even slightly more faded, but kinda dull in color. The first picture is my greatest annoyance as you can see, I'm having great difficulty removing the Indigo from the "outer layer on the sides" of my hair. However, the Indigo is not holding on as strongly in the "back" of my hair. Happily, the Indigo doesn't always appear that dark in the sun.

Mix is still:
3/4 cup distilled water
2 Tablespoon honey (Clover honey in the Bear Bottle)
1 Tablespoon cinnamon

Condition is still:
Shiney and soft. I've been using this mix about 1-2x a week.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/002.jpg

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/006-1.jpg

wintersun99

An encore of your latest results with the top layers holding onto the indigo, because I think those layers dried while the treatment was on your hair, even though you used plastic.

You are not the first to report this kind of problem. Your pictures I think, best illustrate the problem.

curls2grow
August 6th, 2008, 05:51 AM
Am I posting in the wrong thread, to ask about honey's effect on gray and/or salt-and-pepper hair?

ktani
August 6th, 2008, 06:19 AM
Am I posting in the wrong thread, to ask about honey's effect on gray and/or salt-and-pepper hair?

curls2grow

Hi and no you are not - this is the Honey thread - all things honey, lol.

If you mean will honey tint grey or white hair, honey has not been reported to add colour to hair, even dark honey.

Honey mixed with conditioner for conditioning or with distilled water for lightening - no reports of the honey tinting or staining hair anywhere on the boards, that I have read.

It was suspected of doing so once, in this thread, but it turned out to be the castor oil used in a shampoo bar instead.

The hair continued to darken, even though a honey rinse had long since been stopped.

wintersun99
August 6th, 2008, 09:25 AM
wintersun99

Is this honey the new one that you mentioned that you were going to buy?

And if so, where is the big bear bottle from, whose brand, please?

Just checking and I want to add it to the Successful Honeys List.

I used Honey Bee Clover honey purchased at Nature's grocery, this time around. I'm not really sure if it's any different than the Nature's brand honey I've been using in the past. I didn't notice anything one way or the other, so far as more/less effective than what I was originally using. Not sure that it's worth listing as a recommendation...

ktani
August 6th, 2008, 12:29 PM
I used Honey Bee Clover honey purchased at Nature's grocery, this time around. I'm not really sure if it's any different than the Nature's brand honey I've been using in the past. I didn't notice anything one way or the other, so far as more/less effective than what I was originally using. Not sure that it's worth listing as a recommendation...

wintersun99

Thank you.

Your results are better, so I will still add it to the list.

Not all clover honeys are created equal - there can be different plant sources of clover in one brand.

ktani
August 6th, 2008, 12:31 PM
The Successful Honeys List - honeys reported to work well in honey lightening recipes.

As you can see there are more brand names than types of honey - that does not matter - the brand is important too - different brands of clover honey for example have been reported to work differently.

Australia
Jarrah honey

Brazil
Bio21 orange blossom honey

Italy
black locust honey

North America
honey in bear shaped plastic bottle from Walmart
Billy Bee clover honey

Norway
Ekte honning honey

Poland
Raw wildflower honey

UK
Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys)

Sainsburys Basics brand honey

Waitrose Wild Flower honey

U.S.
Aunt Sue's Raw All Natural honey

Honey Bee clover honey

Hyvee brand honey

Laney brand alfalfa honey

Nature's Energy honey (Natures grocery store)

Ralph's brand pure clover honey

Really Raw brand honey (goldenrod, aster and wildflower)

raw, unpasteurized, blackberry honey, clover honey, orange blossom honey, tupelo honey, wildflower honey

Save Mart honey, in a bear bottle

Stater Brothers honey

Sue Bee clover honey

Target's Market Pantry Honey (In a little bear bottle)

Trader Joe's 100% desert mesquite honey, clover blossom honey

Wegmans' brand Clover Honey

Western Family Clover Honey

wintersun99
August 6th, 2008, 12:37 PM
wintersun99

Thank you.

Your results are better, so I will still add it to the list.

Not all clover honeys are created equal - there can be different plant sources of clover in one brand.

Also, thanks for the reminder to try saturating the ends and letting them soak in the run-off in the shower cap. I think that helped quite a bit!

ktani
August 6th, 2008, 12:57 PM
wintersun99

You are most welcome.

Now to concentrate on that top layer. Add extra treatment to the top layers of your hair, just before covering the hair.

If you have an extra large bathing cap, there might even be enough room to accomodate the ends without pinning them up - they can soak in the run off too but the cap needs to be secure over the top layers and fit snugly.

By letting the treatment sit for an hour in advance of application, a bathing cap, as I said, should not be necessary but if it can help at all in your case - do both.

ktani
August 7th, 2008, 11:55 AM
Shortened version of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water).

3. Use the 4 to 1 dilution (it is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
August 7th, 2008, 09:50 PM
kokuryu's results, without letting the treatment sit for 1 hour in advance of application, without measuring and with her exceptional tap water, which IMO, is far from average. She did however use a bathing cap, which kept all of the moisture in her hair, allowing the honey to continuously produce peroxide, while it was on her hair, without any hair drying.


kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

plainjanegirl
August 8th, 2008, 02:08 PM
I am really excited cause I am getting ready to do a honey treatment. I just made the mix so now I have to wait an hour to let it sit before I apply it to my hair for another hour. My hair was colored in May and it is too dark, especially the lower parts. I am really hoping that this helps lighten it considerably. I did a 1/4 cup honey, 1 1/2 cups water, 1 Tbs. cinnamon, and 1 Tbs. oil.

ktani
August 8th, 2008, 02:40 PM
I am really excited cause I am getting ready to do a honey treatment. I just made the mix so now I have to wait an hour to let it sit before I apply it to my hair for another hour. My hair was colored in May and it is too dark, especially the lower parts. I am really hoping that this helps lighten it considerably. I did a 1/4 cup honey, 1 1/2 cups water, 1 Tbs. cinnamon, and 1 Tbs. oil.

plainjanegirl

Thank you for posting your recipe in advance.

Everything sounds perfect.

For the lower parts, leave your hair unpinned up under the plastic to let them soak in some of the runnoff, but still keep the plastic secure on your hair.

As long as you did not apply heat to the ground cinnamon at any time, you should be ok.

You did not mention if the water is distilled or not and which oil you are using.

If it is not, your tap water could affect results - that depends on its mineral content and your honey.

Good luck!

I look forward to your results and please comment on the condition of your hair too.

ktani
August 9th, 2008, 10:11 AM
For those of you who experiment with herbs and plants, please read the Comfrey thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=9944

Traditional use of a plant is no guarantee of its safety.

Health food stores have until now, been free of most of the regulations that govern food items.

That is an error that governments around the world are now correcting, thankfully.

I see this as a positive thing.

Many chemicals in plants can be absorbed through the skin.

xrosiex
August 9th, 2008, 04:53 PM
I love honey!!!! I've used a mix of 1/4 cup honey to 1 cup distilled water. I left it on for an hour, shampooed and conditioned. And it really works. It left my hair in great shape. I think I'll be doing it again. Probably monthly. Maybe more.:)

ktani
August 9th, 2008, 06:18 PM
I love honey!!!! I've used a mix of 1/4 cup honey to 1 cup distilled water. I left it on for an hour, shampooed and conditioned. And it really works. It left my hair in great shape. I think I'll be doing it again. Probably monthly. Maybe more.:)

xrosiex

Thank you for posting your recipe, results and the condition of your hair.

I am glad to read that you are so pleased with the results.

If you want more lightening, increase the distilled water amount to 1 1/2 cups.

1/4 cup of honey = 3 oz x 4 = 12 oz of distilled water needed. 1 cup of water = 8 oz.

You need 4 x the amount of water by weight to the honey used.

http://www.traditionaloven.com/conve...surements.html (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html)

ktani
August 10th, 2008, 07:08 AM
When using the honey lightening boosters; ground cinnamon, ground cardamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil, with the correted 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water, it has been reported that less of a booster is needed than was needed previously, with the older recipes, to achieve good results.

For the spices, as little as 1 teaspoon to 1 tablespoon has been reported to work well.

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe (but not with the amount of cinnamon used).
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

For the oils, 1/2 to 1 tablespoon has been reported to work well.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair more easily than ground cinnamon. Both spices can cause sensitivity. Please patch test and do not use too much.

And no heat should be used with any honey lightening peroxide containing ingredients; the honey and the boosters.

If you use herbal tea (brewed with distilled water), cool it to room temperature, before adding the honey or the boosters.

plainjanegirl
August 10th, 2008, 02:56 PM
I did another honey treatment today....with just the honey and water cause I didnt notice much of a difference earlier this week.

ktani
August 10th, 2008, 03:08 PM
I did another honey treatment today....with just the honey and water cause I didnt notice much of a difference earlier this week.

plainjanegirl

It sounds to me like the honey, unless there is something about your method that you have not posted.

Are you using plastic?

The previous recipe that you posted was perfect, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=222936&postcount=1873

What kind of water are you using?

MadHatter
August 10th, 2008, 04:56 PM
This thread is huge.
I'm dying to fade out my henna. I still love the red, but I'm so tired of keeping up with roots.
I understand that I won't be able to get it all out, but I hope to lighten it so that the growing out won't be too horrible.
I read through parts of this thread hoping to find a recent, successful recipe for lightening henna'ed hair. But the thread is soooo big.
So right now I'm sitting with a honey/tomato sauce/EVOO mix, the one on the first page of this thread. I read in ktani's sig link that one should stay away from tomato, but I was heartened by the poster who was able to lift some color with this mix.
Ktani, does it matter how long a mix is left in? Will the peroxide only do it's magic for so long?
ETA: At what point did you all find out that tomato should be avoided? What page in this thread?

ktani
August 10th, 2008, 06:15 PM
This thread is huge.
I'm dying to fade out my henna. I still love the red, but I'm so tired of keeping up with roots.
I understand that I won't be able to get it all out, but I hope to lighten it so that the growing out won't be too horrible.
I read through parts of this thread hoping to find a recent, successful recipe for lightening henna'ed hair. But the thread is soooo big.
So right now I'm sitting with a honey/tomato sauce/EVOO mix, the one on the first page of this thread. I read in ktani's sig link that one should stay away from tomato, but I was heartened by the poster who was able to lift some color with this mix.
Ktani, does it matter how long a mix is left in? Will the peroxide only do it's magic for so long?
ETA: At what point did you all find out that tomato should be avoided? What page in this thread?

MadHatter

Thank you for your recipe and post.

I keep posting the Pictures Post - it has the honey lightening results on henna too.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218366&postcount=1861

Tomato contains Vitamin C - so you are working against the honey with it but it can help lighten somewhat. The reported results are just less and slower.

You can leave a honey lightening treatment on longer than 1 hour with no problems reported.

With the correct 4 to 1 dilution, a good honey and distilled water, the reported results a much better and much faster.

An example

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe (but not with the amount of cinnamon used).
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Here is the short version of the recommendations in my signature.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=221425&postcount=1871

I look forward to reading your results.

MadHatter
August 10th, 2008, 07:09 PM
Do you think a 4:1 ratio of EVOO and honey would be a fair mix? Or should I stick to water and honey? I'm likely going to stay away from adding a bunch of different things, like cinnamon, unless I get more hell bent to lighten the henna. The tomato sauce left bits of something, and I want to keep from having to do a lot of washing to get stuff out.
They honey I'm using is the one from Target. That's the only one on the list that I could find. I'd love to get some of that Australian honey.
And thanks for the pm Ktani!

ktani
August 10th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Do you think a 4:1 ratio of EVOO and honey would be a fair mix? Or should I stick to water and honey? I'm likely going to stay away from adding a bunch of different things, like cinnamon, unless I get more hell bent to lighten the henna. The tomato sauce left bits of something, and I want to keep from having to do a lot of washing to get stuff out.
They honey I'm using is the one from Target. That's the only one on the list that I could find. I'd love to get some of that Australian honey.
And thanks for the pm Ktani!

MadHatter

You are welcome.

No, I do not recommend a 4 to 1 dilution with EVOO.

Oil will not dilute the honey properly and that much EVOO will be very difficult to wash out of your hair.

I recommend using distilled water and honey with the correct 4 to 1 dilution - 1/8th cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 1/4 cup honey needs 1 1/2 cups distilled water.

Let the mix sit for 1 hour at room temperaure for 1 hour in advance of application or you could use it right away with a bathing cap, if you want.

MadHatter
August 10th, 2008, 07:44 PM
Drat. I went looking for some distilled water, but I don't have any. Would RO water be okay, do you think?

ktani
August 10th, 2008, 07:46 PM
Drat. I went looking for some distilled water, but I don't have any. Would RO water be okay, do you think?

MadHatter

What is RO water?

Distilled or deionized water is mineral free.

MadHatter
August 10th, 2008, 07:47 PM
Reverse Osmosis

ktani
August 10th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Reverse Osmosis

MadHatter

I just found it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_osmosis

I think that you should try to find distilled or deionized - or you could try your tap water first.

Distilled water should not be that difficult to find.

A list is of American retailers but the kinds of vendor sources for distilled water should be similar everywhere.
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

MadHatter
August 10th, 2008, 11:20 PM
My hair is still wet, so I can't tell much.
But I could tell that my hair dried some even under a plastic bag. I read somewhere here that a shower cap is better. Is it really? I don't see how it would be, but if it's worked better for others, I won't argue.

plainjanegirl
August 10th, 2008, 11:56 PM
I am getting discouraged. I had read that tap water wasn't good...we live in the country so it would be well water but I didn't use that....I used some water that I buy for making baby bottles and it is spring water (I just checked). The first time I put my hair in a shower cap and then a towel over that and today I only put a towel over my hair. So is it my water, etc.? I am confused. Is there a way you could do some type of mix of just honey and conditioner for moisturizing the hair that might also lighten it if left on for a long time??? Any advice or tips is appreciated.

ktani
August 11th, 2008, 05:49 AM
My hair is still wet, so I can't tell much.
But I could tell that my hair dried some even under a plastic bag. I read somewhere here that a shower cap is better. Is it really? I don't see how it would be, but if it's worked better for others, I won't argue.

MadHatter

It is less critical that the hair be kept completely wet under the plastic, if you let the treatment sit for 1 hour in advance of the application because the honey would have produced its maximum amout of peroxide in that first hour.

But it is advisable to keep it fairly wet IMO.

People keep reporting hair drying under the plastic. That means that the plastic was not secure enough.

No, a shower cap is not necessarily better.

It depends on whether you let the treatment sit for the hour before application. If you want to use it right away, try using a bathing cap.

Also, apply extra treatment to the areas that you feel dried, before covering the hair next time.

Please update on your results.

ktani
August 11th, 2008, 05:56 AM
I am getting discouraged. I had read that tap water wasn't good...we live in the country so it would be well water but I didn't use that....I used some water that I buy for making baby bottles and it is spring water (I just checked). The first time I put my hair in a shower cap and then a towel over that and today I only put a towel over my hair. So is it my water, etc.? I am confused. Is there a way you could do some type of mix of just honey and conditioner for moisturizing the hair that might also lighten it if left on for a long time??? Any advice or tips is appreciated.

plainjanegirl

I do not recommend tap water but there are exceptions, very few IMO, it depends on the tap water.

That is why I recommend distilled water.

Spring water contains minerals, well water would too even more so. Distilled or deionized water does not.

I do not recommend conditioner for honey lightening. It has not been reported to be reliable for honey lightening and can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening.

I suggest that you buy a different honey if after you try distilled water, you are still having problems.

As for method, you do not need to put a towel over the plastic, the towel can go around your neck to catch drips.

Buy putting just a towel on your hair this time, in addition to the spring water, the towel would have absorbed the treatment and your hair would have gotten dry and the treatment would have dried in the towel.

I suggest that you use a bathing cap over the treatment.

ktani
August 11th, 2008, 06:19 AM
When honey and the correct 4 to 1 dilution is used with distilled water, is left to sit at room temperture for 1 hour in advance of application, the honey will produce its maximum peroxide level.

For honey lightening the level depends on the honey. Some honeys produce very little peroxide. That is why I prepared the Successful Honeys List. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

I did not know how critical it would be to keep the hair wet with this method, under plastic, but it appears from reports, that the hair still needs to be kept mostly wet.

If a treatment is applied to the hair right away, it needs to be kept very wet, in order for the honey to keep producing peroxide for the hour it is on the hair. A bathing cap (swimming cap) is the best way to ensure that, IMO.



The water used is very important, IMO. It needs to be mineral free. Distilled water and deionized water are mineral free, spring water is not.

Most tap water is unsuitable. There are excetions but the only tap water that has been reported to be excellent is kokuryu's so far. She lives in Poland.

Conditioner is not recommended for honey lightening. It has been reported to be unreliable and can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey.

The hair does not need to be covered with a towel over plastic and a towel should not be used instead of plastic. It will absorb the treatment, drying the hair and making the whole process a waste of time, IMO. Body heat is not critical to successful honey lightening. Heat is not recommended for honey lightening. Body heat does not negatively affect honey lightening though - that is the difference.

ktani
August 11th, 2008, 09:27 AM
Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value (Jarrah honey was not used for all of the treatments)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

Alley Cat 1st Jarrah honey report
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=174656&postcount=1562

MadHatter
August 11th, 2008, 12:50 PM
Thanks for the pm's Ktani!
I went to bed before my hair dried last night, so I didn't get a good look until today.
There wasn't any immediately noticeable change. But as I looked, I realized that my hair is a tad bit brighter. It used to be that under my bathroom light, the color wasn't obviously red (it appeared more of a dark brown with a red cast). Now, it's actually noticeable.
Aside from that, my hair is shiny and really soft.
I'm not actually considering this, I'm just wondering, but what do you think would happen if one were to throw in a bit of that store bought hydrogen peroxide?

ktani
August 11th, 2008, 01:02 PM
Thanks for the pm's Ktani!
I went to bed before my hair dried last night, so I didn't get a good look until today.
There wasn't any immediately noticeable change. But as I looked, I realized that my hair is a tad bit brighter. It used to be that under my bathroom light, the color wasn't obviously red (it appeared more of a dark brown with a red cast). Now, it's actually noticeable.
Aside from that, my hair is shiny and really soft.
I'm not actually considering this, I'm just wondering, but what do you think would happen if one were to throw in a bit of that store bought hydrogen peroxide?

MadHatter

I am glad to read that you got some lightening and that the condition of your hair is good.

I would give the correct honey lightening recipe, method and ingredients a try first.

You can always use conventional peroxide at another time.

Honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage.

Conventional hydrogen peroxide has been reported to do so.

Honey and the honey lightening boosters, naturally contain constituents, that have been clinically shown to be protective against hydrogen peroxide damage, which IMO, supports the fact that honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035

If you add conventional peroxide to the mix, it gets into percentages. How much extra peroxide do you add, that at 10 volumn peroxide, is about 1000 times stronger than the hydrogen peroxide honey produces, which is more than the boosters produce? Would the amount of those constituents in a recipe still be enough to offset the new, total recipe peroxide value? At what point would they not be enough? I am not saying that it is not possible, but I think that it would get very tricky indeed.

Honey lightening has been reported to work very well on its own, without any reported damage, and the gamble of damage to hair, that conventional peroxide would add, IMO.

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 08:20 AM
Shortened version of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water).

3. Use the 4 to 1 dilution (it is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time, except herbal tea if used, that is cooled to room temperature before adding any other ingredients. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 08:24 AM
Pictures of honey lightening

On blonde hair

firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution and after with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after 1 treatment - using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Pictures of honey lightening


On dark hair

Maluhia and Viviane - from an older Honey thread with the old dilution recipes
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

mellie - from an older Honey thread - on henndigoed hair (baq henna used once or twice) - the 4 to 1 dilution - no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

mellie - latest pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

nayver - on naturally black hair with faded hi-lights - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

GlennaGirl - on henndigoed hair ("Catherine's (tapdancinglizard) henna. The indigo was from her, too") - the 4 to 1 dilution with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

DolphinPrincess - finally getting results - on henndigoed hair with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cardamom, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with the old 4 to1 dilution, ground cinnamon and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119360&postcount=867

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 3 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176427&postcount=1583

LadyPolaris - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176471&postcount=1586

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176850&postcount=1602

wintersun99 - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=177909&postcount=1610

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 08:38 AM
Pictures of honey lightening on henndigoed hair

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair (multiple henndigo treatments) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 had some of her hair dry during the treatment - the top layers, which IMO, accounts for the indigo not ligtening there.
That can be remedied by adding more treatment to those areas and securing the plastic better, if a treatment is used right away, or wearing a swim cap. ETA: The post above has been edited and the following posts explain how the problem was remedied.

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 08:46 AM
Pictures of honey ligtening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 08:55 AM
Pictures of honey lightening on colour-treated hair

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which is red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 08:57 AM
Honey lightening on naturally black hair with hi-lights

nayver - on naturally black hair with faded hi-lights - the 4 to 1 dilution - after only 2 treatments - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 09:21 AM
The correct 4 to 1 dilution is 4 x the amount of water by weight to the honey used. Reports using the correct 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water have shown better and faster results than previous recipes.

1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup water.

1/4 cup honey needs 1 1/2 cups water.

Distilled water is recommended because it is mineral free. Minerals, especially iron, copper and manganese can deplete the peroxide in a recipe, so can any ingredient that contains Vitamin C.

Most tap water is not and spring waters are not mineral free.

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening and the reported results without conditioner have been faster and better.

Conditioners can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening and they do not contain enough water to properly dilute honey.

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 10:33 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Sokudo Ningyou, after 1 treatment of honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3851 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3851), - after her 3rd treatment, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=638349&postcount=3877.

lundmir, after 1 treatment, of honey, distilled water and ground cinnamon, on previously dyed and henned hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681359&postcount=3989, method and washing out details, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681389&postcount=3991

maryann, on virgin hair with one cassia treatment, after several overnight honey lightening treatments, with the new dilution, and wearing a shower cap
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=703087&postcount=4041

Merrykat, 2 treatments of a new dilution recipe, on previously dyed and hennaed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=720212&postcount=4100

Tangles, medium dark brown hair with some henndigo, after 5 or 6 hour long hour long treatments with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=776079&postcount=4136, details and recipe, with a before picture - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=776937&postcount=4138

HuggyBear - after 4 treatments on natural medium dark blonde hair - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1216286&postcount=4357, on the condition of her hair - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1216320&postcount=4359, recipe and method and honey used - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1216379&postcount=4361, hair colour, and location, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1216456&postcount=4363, after 5 treatments, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1225586&postcount=4377

Heartwillfollow - after 6 honey lightening treatments on hennaed hair - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1232986&postcount=4398, more details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1233382&postcount=4405

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 11:14 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

BranwenWolf - honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506

ShaSha, after a 2nd treatment, with just honey and tap water (the first was honey, tap water and cassia but there are no pictures)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=527243&postcount=3523

recipe and method details for the 2nd treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528545&postcount=3542

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 03:27 PM
A honey lightening recipe can be applied to the hair 2 ways, or with a combination of both methods.

1. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, or pastry brush.

2. Apply the treatment with a squirt bottle

I recommend letting a treatment sit for 1 hour in advance of application, at room temperature. With the correct 4 to 1 dilution (4 x the amount of distilled water to the amount of honey by weight), a honey will produce its maximum peroxide value, in that time. This means that a treatment is applied at full strength. The hair should then be covered securely with plastic to contain drips, pinned up or not.

For those in a hurry, a treatment can be applied right away. A bathing or swim cap is recommended when this is done, to ensure that the hair stays completely wet, to allow the honey to keep producing peroxide, during the hour or so that a treatment is on the hair.

ktani
August 12th, 2008, 05:03 PM
I have broken down the Pictures Post in the last 2 pages, including this one, to help out those with specific needs, to see what honey lightening can do in different hair categories.

Honey lightening can work on virgin, colour-treated, henndigoed and hennaed hair.

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is the key, IMO, to getting honey lightening to work even faster, and better than before the 4 to 1 dilution was corrected.

Distilled water has been reported to aid the process very well.

Spices like ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and oils, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil can help, but just honey and water has been reported to work very well too, with the right honey, water and method.

ktani
August 13th, 2008, 07:24 AM
Shortened version of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water).

3. Use the 4 to 1 dilution (it is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

Note: A treatment can be applied right away to wet hair. If this is done, a swim cap is an excellent choice to keep the hair very wet, which is necessary for the honey to keep producing peroxide, for the hour or so the treatment is on the hair.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
August 13th, 2008, 10:11 AM
Update Photos

Here is where I started 7-9 months ago.

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/th_008.jpg

Here is on 7/2008

Old Mix:
1/2 c honey (Nature's store brand)
1/2 c conditioner
1 tsp EVOO

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/th_006.jpg

Here is on 8/9/2008 (using the new mix, with correct ratio's) This photo is a little darker because I just henna'd (2 days earlier) but it lightened up quite a bit, after I had a chance to wash it well...

Current Mix
3/4 c distilled water
2 Tablespoon honey (Honey-Bee clover)
1 Tablespoon cinnamon

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/th_006-1.jpg

Here is on 8/11/2008 after a 40:60 buxus:henna ratio.
Notice the bangs pulled back and the difference in color! This is also after 3 more Honey lightenings, using the (current mix) between the the two photos.

http://s266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/th_001.jpg

Loads of shine and great conditioning, still attributing this to the Honey mixes :)

wintersun99

WOW again! Thank you for editing in the new results pictures and more information on the condition of your hair. I edited my response to you, in the post following your original post.

What did you do to make the difference in the upper layers letting go of the indigo?

At the time, I made 2 suggestions.

"1. Regardless of whether you let the treatment sit for 1 hour before applying it, apply extra treatment to the outer layer at the end of your application and the sides, where you have the problem.

2. Use a bathing cap to cover your hair after the application. It should help keep all the moisture in better for the hour the honey lightening treatment is on your hair. I do not think if you let the treatment sit for 1 hour in advance of application, that this is necessary, but it cannot hurt to try it."

wintersun99
August 13th, 2008, 10:25 AM
#1

I applied loads of extra mix to the top layers (I previously had been applying by bending over the tub so apparently the underlayers were getting the priority) even though I thought I was been equal. So, I made sure the top portion was getting excess and I was also spritzing the top layers with a mix of honey/water in a spritzer bottle throughout the application time (maybe every 20 minutes or so) to make sure it stayed moist. I also let the mix sit longer (45min-an hour) before applying to my hair. I am still leaving the mix on for about 2 hours (rather than 1) as I like the conditioning benefits too.

ktani
August 13th, 2008, 10:29 AM
#1

I applied loads of extra mix to the top layers (I previously had been applying by bending over the tub so apparently the underlayers were getting the priority) even though I thought I was been equal. So, I made sure the top portion was getting excess and I was also spritzing the top layers with a mix of honey/water in a spritzer bottle throughout the application time (maybe every 20 minutes or so) to make sure it stayed moist. I also let the mix sit longer (45minutes-an hour) before applying to my hair. I am still leaving the mix on for about 2 hours (rather than 1) as I like the conditioning benefits too.

wintersun99

Thank you.

45 minutes is good - an hour is the recommended time to let it sit for the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

What did you cover your hair with and was it more secure these times?

IMO, it must have been from your results.

wintersun99
August 13th, 2008, 10:30 AM
Covered with a regular plastic shower cap and a hat (to keep it tighter to head) didn't have a swim cap :)

ktani
August 13th, 2008, 10:34 AM
Covered with a regular plastic shower cap and a hat (to keep it tighter to head) didn't have a swim cap :)

wintersun99

Very resourceful of you. I do things like that too.

Well, I can certainly see the difference it made - both with the extra treatment added to those areas and the secured shower cap.

I am very pleased for you.

This is the kind of difference the correct 4 to 1 dilution can make, with the right honey, application and method of covering the hair!

mellie
August 13th, 2008, 12:04 PM
It is really great lightening!!! Very inspiring! Congrats Wintersun99!!!

ktani
August 13th, 2008, 01:03 PM
mellie

If you want to lighten more, just add a 1/2 cup more water to Mellie's Mix, to correct the dilution and try distilled water to brew the tea.

Your mix is excellent, IMO.

ktani
August 14th, 2008, 05:54 AM
With the correct 4 to 1 dilution, 2 tablespoons honey or 1/8th cup, may be all most lengths need, and ony 3/4 cup of distilled water is required.

This has been reported to be a successful recipe amount and should be easier to handle.

It should saturate even thick hair and possibly cut down on drips.

ktani
August 14th, 2008, 05:28 PM
Most people are using either a 1/4 cup of honey or 1/8 cup for their honey lightening treatments.

Here is the correct amount of distilled water needed for the 4 to 1 dilution with those amounts.

1/4 cup honey needs 1 1/2 cup distilled water

1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water.

ktani
August 14th, 2008, 05:32 PM
The correct 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey, calculated by weight.

With this dilution, a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour, because a honey will produce its maximum amount of peroxide in that time.

The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link.

Use 4 times the amount of water to honey by weight, e.g. 40 grams distilled water to 10 grams honey. You can convert to ml, 1 gram = 1 ml, oz, tablespoons or cups.

http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 06:06 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 11:19 AM
On another page from the link that I adapted the 4 to 1 dilution from, this information.

"So, it was the refined sugar fault!" .... from The Minnesota Beekeepers, Spring 1996, Minnesota Honey Producers Association, Inc., Originaly printed May 1955 - ABJ
Waugh a'nd Waugh (1940) studied the effects of natural and refined sugars on the mouth bacteria .... and caries development among primitive Eskimos. .... found that practically 100 percent of those free from caries in the group fed natural sugars (raisins dried figs, maple syrup, honey, dates) remained free from caries .... concluded that the Eskimo's natural sugars do not initiate or cause an increase in the growth of oral bacteria; neither do natural sugars initiate or cause an increase in dental cavities."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html

And more recently

".... antimicrobial properties of honey could prove effective in arresting .... dental plaque bacteria believed to be responsible for dental caries .....
Research results from University of Waikato show .... honey can stop the growth of dental plaque bacteria ...."
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Honey-curbs-bacteria-in-the-oral-cavity-1079-1/

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 11:44 AM
From that same page

".... article in Deutsches Bienen-Journal 3: 78-82 by Werner von der Ohe/Katharina von der Ohe in 1992 entitled "Honigqualitat: der Einfluss der Temperatur [Honey quality: the effect of temperature]."
.... authors report on .... experiments on heating honey .... in a water bath at 40, 50 or 60 deg. C or with microwaves. .... changes in HMF content and .... contents of the enzymes invertase, amylase and glucose oxidase .... recorded. .... heating at 40 deg. C for 24 h caused neither decrease of enzyme content nor an inrease of HMF content. Treatment with microwawes caused ....slight increase in the HMF content .... almost .... total loss of the enzymes."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 11:47 AM
The HMF information on this page is interesting but I have not researched it further, not do I understand it, at this point.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html

I did find this page. The HMF concentration has to do with honey quality and ageing, which is affected by storage and processing.

".... quality parameters of honey is presented. Aspects discussed include: .... indicators of ageing (diastase activity, hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) concn.). Honey is considered a safe product .... problems in processing, bottling and storage may lead to undesirable changes. Principal sources of microorganisms in honey are the bacterial and fungal flora deposited by bees .... possible contamination during processing. Reports have shown that pH of honey should be between 3.2 and 4.5 .... Values outside these ranges could indicate long storage time. .... Diastase activity and HMF concn. are used as indicators of ageing ...."
http://www.airborne.co.nz/HMFref.html

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 12:13 PM
This is better in terms of an explanation - to a point, IMO.

"Determination of 5-Hydroxymethyl-2-furaldehyd (HMF) in sweet wine and Balsamic Vinegar
HMF ... well known substance .... formed during heating of carbohydrate containing foods. .... highly reactive product can form adducts with the DNA which can lead to mutations. Due to the harmful potential of HMF .... necessary to estimate the dietary exposure.

Aim of this study .... to identify foods having an exceptionally high content of HMF. ....
Results:

Sherry: 2 - 320 &#181;g/ml
Balsamic vinegar: 190 - 3000 &#181;g/ml
Breakfast cereals: 3 - 26 &#181;g/g"
http://www.slv.se/templates/SLV_NewsPage.aspx?id=5571&epslanguage=SV

"In Holland, .... forbidden to sell honey .... more than 40 mg/kg HMF"
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html

Food quality is tested in most countries. I do not consider HMF to be a problem in most honey on the market. HMF is being researched for safety and that IMO, is a very good thing.

EmmaRose
August 15th, 2008, 12:34 PM
I apologize if this has been asked before, but this thread is sooo long! I applied henna to my chemically lightened hair, and loved the color. Now my darker roots are coming in, and the henna isn't producing as coppery a color any more. From what I understand, the original honey recipe won't touch henna, so I can lighten my roots, and then apply henna. (A different day, of course). If anyone has done this or has any ideas, tips or cautions, I'd really appreciate them! Thanks in advance.

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 12:46 PM
I apologize if this has been asked before, but this thread is sooo long! I applied henna to my chemically lightened hair, and loved the color. Now my darker roots are coming in, and the henna isn't producing as coppery a color any more. From what I understand, the original honey recipe won't touch henna, so I can lighten my roots, and then apply henna. (A different day, of course). If anyone has done this or has any ideas, tips or cautions, I'd really appreciate them! Thanks in advance.

EmmaRose

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

Did you start with the first post in this thread? I have been trying to make it easier for people like you, new to the boards, and to Honey, not to have to struggle with the thread length or not be up to date quickly with the changes.

The honey lightening recipes have changed considerably from what you refer to as the original recipe.

No worries.

You can now use just honey and distilled water on your hennaed hair or add peroxide booster(s). And yes, you can just lighten your roots and then apply henna.

Suggested method
Use a tint or blush or pastry brush to apply the honey lightening treatment to dry hair, only at the roots, pin up the rest of your hair under plastic and leave it on for about an hour. Make sure that the plastic is secure. I recommend letting the treatment sit for 1 hour before application, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value. That means that when you apply the treatment, it will be at full strength. You can use plastic wrap, a bag, or shower cap but a swim cap is an excellent choice to keep the treatment wet and secured. wintersun99 did not have a swim cap and secured her shower cap by wearing a hat over it - it worked. Just before you cover your hair, add extra treatment to just the root areas again.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228938&postcount=1911

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227385&postcount=1902

Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

The correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=230948&postcount=1919

More on the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=230951&postcount=1920

The short version of the recommendations in my signature.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628

EmmaRose
August 15th, 2008, 01:33 PM
ktani, Thank you so much, that was exactly what I was looking for.

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 01:40 PM
ktani, Thank you so much, that was exactly what I was looking for.

EmmaRose

You are most welcome.

Hair near the roots will dry faster (body heat). That is why I suggested adding more treatment to those areas, just before covering and keeping the plastic secure is essential to help prevent that from happening, IMO.

Please update with your results.

Check out the Successful Honeys List or try a dark coloured honey blend, not just a dark, single source honey, if one from the List cannot be found.

MadHatter
August 15th, 2008, 07:33 PM
Sorry I haven't posted any pictures of my progress, but my camera isn't the best, and it can't capture the change in tone.
I said I wouldn't do it, but I did. I put some hydrogen peroxide into a modified SMT. I used a roughly 2:1 ratio of conditioner to honey, and threw in a couple of splashes of peroxide. The reason I used conditioner instead of distilled water is because with water, the mixture is too thin and dries out quickly. The conditioner won't let it dry out.
I've done this two times: the first time, I left it for 3 hours. The second, for 4 hours.
My length (ears down) seems more resistant than the rest of my hair. It's lightened, but not to the same extent. My roots aren't obvious anymore, so that's how I can really tell the mix has done something. My mom told me that my hair definitely looks lighter.
The peroxide hasn't damaged my hair at all. It is much softer and easier to comb after doing the treatments.

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 07:46 PM
Sorry I haven't posted any pictures of my progress, but my camera isn't the best, and it can't capture the change in tone.
I said I wouldn't do it, but I did. I put some hydrogen peroxide into a modified SMT. I used a roughly 2:1 ratio of conditioner to honey, and threw in a couple of splashes of peroxide. The reason I used conditioner instead of distilled water is because with water, the mixture is too thin and dries out quickly. The conditioner won't let it dry out.
I've done this two times: the first time, I left it for 3 hours. The second, for 4 hours.
My length (ears down) seems more resistant than the rest of my hair. It's lightened, but not to the same extent. My roots aren't obvious anymore, so that's how I can really tell the mix has done something. My mom told me that my hair definitely looks lighter.
The peroxide hasn't damaged my hair at all. It is much softer and easier to comb after doing the treatments.

MadHatter

Thank you for posting.

I am glad for you that you are pleased with what you used. There has been reported damage with conventional peroxide, in other threads, though it was not visible at first.

Your reported results are consistant with the results reported with the older recipes, slower, more gradual lightening.

The older recipes with condtioner did lighten as per reports, but not to the extent in the shorter time, that the new recipes have been reported to do now, over all.

I do not think that parts of your hair are resistant to lightening. They did lighten, according to what you posted. I think that your method for honey lightening needs to be reviewed and adjusted.

The honey distilled water recipes can be kept wet and there has been no damage reported from honey lightening.

They have been reported to work very well when the right application methods are used and the plastic is kept secured.

Conditioner does not have enough water to properly dilute honey and can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening.

The new reported results in a number of cases IMO, are amazing.

From all reports to date, honey lightening does not carry the risk for hair damage, that your recipe does, IMO.

Good luck.

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 09:07 PM
Looking at the research on the protective flavonoids in the honey and honey lightening recipe ingredients, they incubated cells with the flavonoids, before adding the hydrogen peroxide. The cells were protected against hydrogen peroxide damage. When the hydrogen peroxide was added directly, damage did occur.

“Protection by the Flavonoids Myricetin, Quercetin, and Rutin Against Hydrogen Peroxide-Induced DNA Damage ….

Exposure to 50 μM H2O2 for 30 minutes .... 37&#176;C resulted in significant DNA damage .... preincubation with the flavonoids before H2O2 exposure significantly .... protected .... cells against H2O2-induced DNA damage"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all



It looks to me like the natural process is the key to honey lightening not causing damage. The flavanoids are at work while the peroxide is being produced by honey.

“…. harmful effects of hydrogen peroxide …. further reduced because honey sequesters and inactivates the free iron which catalyses the formation of oxygen free radicals produced by hydrogen peroxide .... and its antioxidant components help to mop up oxygen free radicals ....”
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

Since there have been no hair damage reports from the use of ground cardamom, ground cinnamon or coconut and EVOO oils, I think that the process must be something similar with those ingredients too.



I do not recommend adding conventional hydrogen peroxide to a honey lightening treatment. The treatment, IMO will not be protective against conventional peroxide damage.

ktani
August 15th, 2008, 09:57 PM
From the reports on using conventional hydrogen peroxide to lighten hair, damage is not noticable right away.

That makes sense to me because the damage is happening at the cellular level and is cumulative.

With honey lightening, the protection from damage is happening at the cellular level, IMO.

Alley Cat
August 15th, 2008, 11:15 PM
Last night I did a 1/2 and 1/2 honey and conditioner treatment just for conditioning purposes not for lightening purposes before that any treatments were a guess work with the honey and conditioner. I read on here 1/2 and 1/2 was a good measurement. What a great treatment I have to say. :cheese: The softest hair imaginable :cloud9:
I may still lighten in the future my hair is still dark my last colour darkened it again a bit, not black like the first one though. I have got to find a colour that doesn't darken too much :rolleyes:
It's all trial and error for me but oh well I like to colour my hair don't I? and those greys come through so fast too. :shrug:

ktani
August 16th, 2008, 05:20 AM
Last night I did a 1/2 and 1/2 honey and conditioner treatment just for conditioning purposes not for lightening purposes before that any treatments were a guess work with the honey and conditioner. I read on here 1/2 and 1/2 was a good measurement. What a great treatment I have to say. :cheese: The softest hair imaginable :cloud9:
I may still lighten in the future my hair is still dark my last colour darkened it again a bit, not black like the first one though. I have got to find a colour that doesn't darken too much :rolleyes:
It's all trial and error for me but oh well I like to colour my hair don't I? and those greys come through so fast too. :shrug:

Alley Cat

Honey and conditioner is an excellent conditioning treatment and 50:50 is a good a ratio IMO.

That used to be a honey lightening recipe. You may get some lightening from it, depending on how long it is left on the hair and the conditioner and method. I now know that honey with conditioner is not properly diluted. The amount of peroxide produced is not optimal per treatment compared to the new recipes, aside from some conditioners containing ingredients that can interfere with honey lightening.

I am glad that you are so happy with the conditioning results.

ktani
August 16th, 2008, 06:39 AM
In theory, applying plant treatments with these flavonoids to the hair before applying conventional hydrogen peroxide over them, could protect the hair against damage. It would be an interesting set of experiments, IMO.

Date 1999
“Protection by the Flavonoids Myricetin, Quercetin, and Rutin Against Hydrogen Peroxide-Induced DNA Damage ….
Exposure to 50 μM H2O2 for 30 minutes .... 37&#176;C resulted in significant DNA damage .... preincubation with the flavonoids before H2O2 exposure significantly .... protected .... cells against H2O2-induced DNA damage"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all

Same researchers, Date 2007
"Experimental evidence suggests .... most herbs and spices possess .... wide range of biological and pharmacological activities .... may protect tissues against H2O2-induced damage."
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/abstract.00002375-200702000-00014.htm;jsessionid=L6WWwPxnshRrQYgF4TVjfl2VF9kJm Vn1nmky7LLhGhfGJJ8NJFTY!-1539859368!181195628!8091!-1

It might also work with applying a honey lightening treatment to the hair, before applying conventional hydrogen peroxide over it.

I am not recommending this. I am just theorizing.

From reported results with the correct 4 to 1 dilution, IMO, honey lightening needs no enhancement.

ktani
August 16th, 2008, 10:06 AM
Pictures of honey lightening on henndigoed hair

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

mellie - latest pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - the 4 to 1 dilution - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

DolphinPrincess - on henndigoed hair with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cardamom, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 had some of her hair dry during the treatment - the top layers, which IMO, accounts for the indigo not ligtening there.
That can be remedied by adding more treatment to those areas and securing the plastic better, if a treatment is used right away, or wearing a swim cap. ETA: The post above has been edited and the following posts explain how the problem was remedied.

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 16th, 2008, 10:07 AM
Pictures of honey ligtening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
August 16th, 2008, 10:08 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 16th, 2008, 10:09 AM
Shortened version of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water).

3. Use the correct 4 to 1 dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

Note: A treatment can be applied right away to wet hair. If this is done, a swim cap is an excellent choice to keep the hair very wet, which is necessary for the honey to keep producing peroxide, for the hour or so the treatment is on the hair.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
August 16th, 2008, 06:40 PM
While researching for this new thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

I found that mullein contains constituents that can deplete peroxide. I had not researched it specifically for that kind of thing before - interesting.

The main minerals that can deplete peroxide are; iron, manganese, copper, nickel and chromium.
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

And of course there is Vitamin C.

"Statistical data .... on 93 herbs .... Mullein (leaf) is the third highest plant in .... iron at 23.6 mg. .... is also high in .... vitamin C. Source: Nutritional Herbology by Mark Pedersen."
http://www.herbaleducator.com/herbs_mullein.html

What this means is that Mellie's Mix needs to be looked at again, IMO. And I have to change the recommendations posts. While Mellie's Mix has shown from reports to work, it is the honey IMO, and from mellie's reports, that is critical. Her Mix did not work with clover tea, initially. This could be why, in addition to the "squeeze" of lemon, that the original recipe contained.

ETA: I edited both versions of the recommendations post and the honey Article, removing mullein and herb tea. While chamomile is ok, I think that straight distilled water is better. Chamomile can add colour to hair.

Alley Cat
August 16th, 2008, 11:17 PM
Alley Cat

Honey and conditioner is an excellent conditioning treatment and 50:50 is a good a ratio IMO.

That used to be a honey lightening recipe. You may get some lightening from it, depending on how long it is left on the hair and the conditioner and method. I now know that honey with conditioner is not properly diluted. The amount of peroxide produced is not optimal per treatment compared to the new recipes, aside from some conditioners containing ingredients that can interfere with honey lightening.

I am glad that you are so happy with the conditioning results.

Thank you. I only left it 1/2 an hour and it wasn't left to sit first so I don't think it will lighten plus it wasn't the jarrah honey .:)

ktani
August 17th, 2008, 05:27 AM
Thank you. I only left it 1/2 an hour and it wasn't left to sit first so I don't think it will lighten plus it wasn't the jarrah honey .:)

Alley Cat

You never had any luck using honey and conditioner to lighten.

Something in the conditioner you used interfered with that, IMO.

I do not expect it to be different this time if you used the same conditioner and you did everything right for just a conditioning treatment.

Conditioners proved to be such a problem, that I eliminated them from honey lightening to make things easier.

And the rest is history, lol.

ktani
August 17th, 2008, 07:06 AM
With just 2 main ingredients, honey and distilled water, it is now very easy to tell if a honey produces enough peroxide to lighten hair.

With the right dilution and method - keeping the plastc secure and making sure that all of the hair is wet before covering, honey lightening has been reported to be much faster and better.

The peroxide boosters can still be used but with distilled water, it has been reported that less spice is necessary. 1 tsp cinnamon worked beautifully for soleluna on her hennaed hair.

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe (the amount of cinnamon is correct)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

3/4 cup water = 175 ml by my calculations, but it is about results. The measurements do not have to be absolutely exact - they need to be close, IMO. A variance one way or the other that is not significant and yields good results, is the important factor, as I see it. I consider soleluna's dilution correct enough, to be correct.

ktani
August 17th, 2008, 07:56 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 17th, 2008, 07:57 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
August 17th, 2008, 09:25 AM
Most people are using either a 1/4 cup of honey or 1/8 cup for their honey lightening treatments.

Here is the correct amount of distilled water needed for the 4 to 1 dilution with those amounts.

1/4 cup honey needs 1 1/2 cup distilled water

1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water.

ktani
August 17th, 2008, 09:31 AM
The correct 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey, calculated by weight.

2 tablespoons honey = 1/8 cup or 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz

6 oz = 3/4 cup for the amount of distilled water to be used. 1 cup of water = 8 oz US

With this dilution, a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour, because a honey will produce its maximum amount of peroxide in that time.

The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Use 4 times the amount of water to honey by weight, e.g. 40 grams distilled water to 10 grams honey.

Alley Cat
August 18th, 2008, 03:19 AM
Alley Cat

You never had any luck using honey and conditioner to lighten.

Something in the conditioner you used interfered with that, IMO.

I do not expect it to be different this time if you used the same conditioner and you did everything right for just a conditioning treatment.

Conditioners proved to be such a problem, that I eliminated them from honey lightening to make things easier.

And the rest is history, lol.

That is true :)

ktani
August 18th, 2008, 05:02 AM
Alley Cat

It could be new ingredients, I do not know. I do know that companies are micronizing more and more ingredients in products for better delivery. Even though ingredient lists for conditioners looked ok for honey lightening in terms of no excessive waxes etc., reported results with them for honey lightening was becoming more inconsistant, in general.

Alley Cat
August 18th, 2008, 05:20 AM
Alley Cat

It could be new ingredients, I do not know. I do know that companies are micronizing more and more ingredients in products for better delivery. Even though ingredient lists for conditioners looked ok for honey lightening in terms of no excessive waxes etc., reported results with them for honey lightening was becoming more inconsistant, in general.

Well your research and the experience here has found a better way . So it's all good. :)

ktani
August 18th, 2008, 05:31 AM
Well your research and the experience here has found a better way . So it's all good. :)

Alley Cat

It ha been really interesting and gratifying for me to see the results of the reports using the 4 to 1 dilution, and then the corrected 4 to 1 dilution.

It is one thing to research, analyze what is there and then recommend. But all of you who field tested my recommendations are really amazing, IMO.

I think that my recommendations are logical, from my interpretation of the research. Without all of you though, they would have remained theories.

I appreciate each and every one of you.

ktani
August 18th, 2008, 04:05 PM
This is interesting, IMO. Damage to cells with hydrogen peroxide can happen quickly - 30 minutes!

No wonder people have had damage to their hair "sneak up" on them. It is not visable at the cellular level, but with prolonged use and/or longer times it would become so.

"Exposure to 50 μM H2O2 for 30 minutes .... 37C resulted in significant DNA damage .... preincubation with the flavonoids before H2O2 exposure significantly .... protected .... cells against H2O2-induced DNA damage"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all

Even with repeated use over long periods of time and for long hours at a time, especially with the old recipes, honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair.

ktani
August 18th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with ground cinnamon in a recipe


firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution and after with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

brok3nwings - on brassy hair from and old semi and acv red/gold tones - 4 to 1 dilution and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98244&postcount=503

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=99995&postcount=516

brok3nwings - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98410&postcount=505

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

GlennaGirl - on henndigoed hair ("Catherine's (tapdancinglizard) henna. The indigo was from her, too") - the 4 to 1 dilution with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 18th, 2008, 07:59 PM
Pictures of honey ligtening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
August 19th, 2008, 08:18 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 19th, 2008, 08:20 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the correct 4 to 1 dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc. (weight conversion 1 g = 1 ml)
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

Note: A treatment can be applied right away to wet hair. If this is done, a swim cap is an excellent choice to keep the hair very wet, which is necessary for the honey to keep producing peroxide, for the hour or so the treatment is on the hair.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
August 19th, 2008, 09:52 AM
I just started this thread. It has some useful links to save, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10643

wintersun99
August 19th, 2008, 09:56 AM
Dude - so much research, my head is buzzing! Do you ever sleep? :)

ktani
August 19th, 2008, 10:25 AM
Dude - so much research, my head is buzzing! Do you ever sleep? :)

Someone pmed me about ingredients. I just thought I would share some of my sources and I did a bit more research on EWG.

MSDS sheets have all kinds of useful information, IMO.

Sleep? what is that?, lol.

DolphinPrincess
August 19th, 2008, 10:13 PM
Well, after a long break from honey treatments, I'm sitting here with one on my hair, based on all the new findings.

My recipe:
3/4 c distilled water
2 T honey (same as 1/8 c)
1 T cardamon
app. 1/2 T EVOO

I let it sit for about an hour, stirring occasionally since the cardamon settles. I decided to try running the mix through a coffee filter so I didn't have to deal with the graininess of cardamon later. Well, it sortof worked, except the honey makes it a little thicker, so it strains really slow, but at least it's not gritty. Anyway, it's not sitting on my hair, with 2 plastic grocery bags around my hair, and then my turbie towel over that. I plan to wash after an hour so we'll see if I get any results! I can hope! :happydance:

ktani
August 19th, 2008, 10:24 PM
Well, after a long break from honey treatments, I'm sitting here with one on my hair, based on all the new findings.



My recipe:
3/4 c distilled water
2 T honey (same as 1/8 c)
1 T cardamon
app. 1/2 T EVOO



I let it sit for about an hour, stirring occasionally since the cardamon settles. I decided to try running the mix through a coffee filter so I didn't have to deal with the graininess of cardamon later. Well, it sortof worked, except the honey makes it a little thicker, so it strains really slow, but at least it's not gritty. Anyway, it's not sitting on my hair, with 2 plastic grocery bags around my hair, and then my turbie towel over that. I plan to wash after an hour so we'll see if I get any results! I can hope! :happydance:


DolphinPrincess

Sounds perfect.

Good luck!

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 07:05 AM
DolphinPrincess

I am looking forward to your results.

If you used the same honey as last time, this recipe should be even more successful for you, IMO.

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 07:20 AM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043) of just honey and water results.

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html) is a conversion link. Or you can just use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of distilled water, 2 to 12 etc.

Here are pictures (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906) of results with the new dilution.

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

ETA: If too much of a recipe is made it can be stored for a day or so but I would not go much beyond keeping it 24 hours in the fridge, not because it can go off but because the peroxide level of a recipe can peak and then decline. That varies with the honey.

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 10:26 AM
This link is a one post summary of the new honey lightening recommendations, with explanations and links. It is in my signature too.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

This is a shortened version of the post in the link above.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628


Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution, which shows faster, better results reported.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

socks
August 20th, 2008, 12:00 PM
I just finished mixing up a batch (about 1 part clover honey to 4 parts water, with a teaspoon and a half of cinnamon) and I'm letting it sit for a while before I apply it. I should be able to post in a few hours with my results.

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 12:20 PM
I just finished mixing up a batch (about 1 part clover honey to 4 parts water, with a teaspoon and a half of cinnamon) and I'm letting it sit for a while before I apply it. I should be able to post in a few hours with my results.

socks

Thank you for posting your recipe.

How did you measure out the honey and water?

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is done by weight.

2 tablespoons of honey (1/8 cup), needs 3/4 cup distilled water.

50 grams of honey needs 200 grams (or 200 ml) distilled water etc.

socks
August 20th, 2008, 12:51 PM
I just used a visual approximation, but it was probably more like 1/4 cup of honey and 1 cup of water. If I do this again, I'll use the correct mixture.

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 02:03 PM
I just used a visual approximation, but it was probably more like 1/4 cup of honey and 1 cup of water. If I do this again, I'll use the correct mixture.

socks

I was hoping to catch you while the treatment was still sitting, if that was the case. You could always add a bit more water, for what you used about, 1/2 cup more.

Distilled water is recommended beacause it is mineral free - iron, copper, nickel and chromium can depelete recipe peroxide.

Good luck!

DolphinPrincess
August 20th, 2008, 06:15 PM
Today my hair doesn't look any lighter, but it is definitely soft and shiney!!! I think my hair just doesn't want to let go of the henna and indigo....

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 06:18 PM
Today my hair doesn't look any lighter, but it is definitely soft and shiney!!! I think my hair just doesn't want to let go of the henna and indigo....


DolphinPrincess

That is what you used to say until it did lighten considerably. What have you been doing to your hair in between the last time and this?

Did you use the same honey as last time?

DolphinPrincess
August 20th, 2008, 07:05 PM
DolphinPrincess

That is what you used to say until it did lighten considerably. What have you been doing to your hair in between the last time and this?

Did you use the same honey as last time?


I know I've said that before, but after awhile I was noticing that my hair didn't really look any lighter, I think it was just the way the light was. I haven't done anything, no treatments whatsoever, and yes, it was the same honey. Very strange...

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 07:20 PM
I know I've said that before, but after awhile I was noticing that my hair didn't really look any lighter, I think it was just the way the light was. I haven't done anything, no treatments whatsoever, and yes, it was the same honey. Very strange...


DolphinPrincess

Well it certainly looked lighter to me and in different light.

DolphinPrincess - finally getting results - on henndigoed hair with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cardamom, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

I suggest trying a different honey.

Make sure that the hair is very wet before covering. Add extra treatment to the darekest areas before covering.

DolphinPrincess
August 20th, 2008, 07:34 PM
DolphinPrincess

Well it certainly looked lighter to me and in different light.

DolphinPrincess - finally getting results - on henndigoed hair with the 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cardamom, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

I suggest trying a different honey.

Make sure that the hair is very wet before covering. Add extra treatment to the darekest areas before covering.


Hmmm, maybe it wasn't wet enough... I think I'll try doubling the amounts next time, though I don't know how long it'll be till then.

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 07:50 PM
DolphinPrincess

wintersun99 had a similar problem. She tried a new honey, and used more treatment on areas where the indigo was holding on.

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

DolphinPrincess
August 20th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Thanks! I'll have to see what honey my local natural foods store carries.

ktani
August 20th, 2008, 08:14 PM
DolphinPrincess

wintersun99 had indigo holding on to her ends. I suggested leaving her hair unpinned up to soak in the run off when covered. It helped.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=219959&postcount=1869

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 06:10 AM
There seems to be 2 problems that people are having with methods for applying and covering the recipes.

1. The hair is drying during application.

2. The hair is drying when covered because the plastic is not secure enough.

The hair needs to be fully saturated with the treatment, and kept wet by the treatment, during the time it is on the hair.

I suggest that some of the treatment be kept in a spray bottle, to keep the hair wet during and after application, just before covering, as wintersun99 did.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

For specific areas the tint, blush or pastry brush can be used.

A swim cap, kokuryu's idea is an excellent one IMO, for keeping the the hair fully wet, regardless of whether the treatment has been left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application or not.



Wearing a hat over a shower cap, wintersun99's idea, is an excellent alternative to a swim cap, to keep the shower cap tighter to the head. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

Her results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855


Experiment as to whether it is better for you to apply the treatment to wet or dry hair. Both should work.



kokuryu on her recipe - no drips but the honey was obviously fully diluted IMO, correctly.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

She changed her method of application to applying the treatment to wet hair for the 3rd treatment.
kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 07:07 AM
I initially though that it was not as critical for the hair to be kept completely wet, if a treatment was left to sit for an hour, in advance of application to the hair, compared to application right away.

It now appears that this was incorrect.

The hair must be kept completely wet, when using a honey lightening treatment either way.

This is how I learn from all of you testing the recipes.

ETA: I have edited all versions of the recommendations to include the following; optional use of a spray bottle, wearing a hat over a shower cap to secure it, or wearing a swim cap (recommended), making sure that the hair is completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

Bene
August 21st, 2008, 08:00 AM
i did a honey treatment for the first time on tuesday. nuked it for a minute on high because i didn't want any color change. used suave naturals juicy green apple, which was really good, it saturated my hair completely.

only thing is, i microwaved both the honey AND the conditioner, and my advice to anyone who tries this: give it time to cool down. it's like napalm!!!


anyway, i wrapped it in the cling wrap, then tied a bandanna over it to keep it in place and THEN wrapped a towel onto my head to keep it warm. then left it in for about 2 1/2 hours. rinsed it out completely (it came out pretty easy), then did an AVC rinse, rinsed again with cool water, towel wrapped it again and put a few drops of carrot oil in it while it was still damp.



my hair feels soooooo soft and it's shiny, i'm definitely doing this again. :)

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 08:09 AM
i did a honey treatment for the first time on tuesday. nuked it for a minute on high because i didn't want any color change. used suave naturals juicy green apple, which was really good, it saturated my hair completely.

only thing is, i microwaved both the honey AND the conditioner, and my advice to anyone who tries this: give it time to cool down. it's like napalm!!!


anyway, i wrapped it in the cling wrap, then tied a bandanna over it to keep it in place and THEN wrapped a towel onto my head to keep it warm. then left it in for about 2 1/2 hours. rinsed it out completely (it came out pretty easy), then did an AVC rinse, rinsed again with cool water, towel wrapped it again and put a few drops of carrot oil in it while it was still damp.



my hair feels soooooo soft and it's shiny, i'm definitely doing this again. :)

Bene

Thank you for posting.

I hope that you do not have any lasting effects from the "burn" of using too hot a conditioning only honey recipe.

I am glad that you are pleased with the conditioning results on your hair.

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 09:06 AM
An update on chelants, (which are naturally found in honey lightening ingredients, including honey) and protection from hair damage
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=238824&postcount=11

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 09:21 AM
Honey lightening can be slower to lighten hair than conventional hydrogen peroxide.

However, conventional hydrogen peroxide can damage cells in as little as 30 minutes.

“Protection by the Flavonoids Myricetin, Quercetin, and Rutin Against Hydrogen Peroxide-Induced DNA Damage ….
Exposure to 50 μM H2O2 for 30 minutes .... 37&#176;C resulted in significant DNA damage .... preincubation with the flavonoids before H2O2 exposure significantly .... protected .... cells against H2O2-induced DNA damage"
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all

Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair over long term use and hours at a time on the hair.

wintersun99
August 21st, 2008, 09:43 AM
...The hair must be kept completely wet, when using a honey lightening treatment either way.

ETA: I have edited all versions of the recommendations to include the following; optional use of a spray bottle, wearing a hat over a shower cap to secure it, or wearing a swim cap (recommended), making sure that the hair is completely wet during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

Chiming in to say that this is most crucial for those trying to lighten hair that has Indigo in it... as I've found out recently.



...only thing is, i microwaved both the honey AND the conditioner, and my advice to anyone who tries this: give it time to cool down. it's like napalm!!! my hair feels soooooo soft and it's shiny, i'm definitely doing this again.

Yowza!! I did that once with an Amla/EVOO mixture and thought my scalp skin was going to peel off... :rolleyes:

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 09:50 AM
Chiming in to say that this is most crucial for those trying to lighten hair that has Indigo in it... as I've found out recently.

wintersun99

I now believe that it is most crucial with honey lightening period.

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 10:53 AM
More from the other thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=238917&postcount=12

socks
August 21st, 2008, 01:47 PM
I didn't have time to post my results yesterday, but after leaving the mixture on my hair for 90 minutes, my hair did get much lighter. I had used semi-perm dyes in the past and some green and red dye had clung to my hair, but the honey and cinnamon almost completely removed what was left of the dye. My hair is also a bit shinier and softer than usual, even though I went to the beach after the honey treatment and the salt water usually leaves my hair dry.

I'm not entirely sure, but it may have stripped some of the built-up cones in my hair. I've been going mostly cone-free lately, but I still seemed to have a lot of build-up from a couple weeks ago and I think most of that build-up is gone now. Of course, the salt water may have done something, too, but I think the honey treatment played at least some part.

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 01:56 PM
I didn't have time to post my results yesterday, but after leaving the mixture on my hair for 90 minutes, my hair did get much lighter. I had used semi-perm dyes in the past and some green and red dye had clung to my hair, but the honey and cinnamon almost completely removed what was left of the dye. My hair is also a bit shinier and softer than usual, even though I went to the beach after the honey treatment and the salt water usually leaves my hair dry.

I'm not entirely sure, but it may have stripped some of the built-up cones in my hair. I've been going mostly cone-free lately, but I still seemed to have a lot of build-up from a couple weeks ago and I think most of that build-up is gone now. Of course, the salt water may have done something, too, but I think the honey treatment played at least some part.

socks

Thank you for the update.

Great news both on your colour and hair condition!

Could you please give more details on whether you used distilled water and the method you used to apply the treatment and cover your hair?

Honey lightening has not been reported to remove product build-up. That may well have been the salt water, which can leave a residue of its own.

Nice to know that your hair did not get dried out from the salt water.

socks
August 21st, 2008, 02:23 PM
I did indeed use distilled water.

To apply, I first braided my hair and plugged the sink. Then, I basically just poured the mixture onto my scalp while leaning over the sink using the same water bottle I mixed everything in. The liquid that ran off my hair got caught in the sink and my braid soaked up everything caught in the sink.

I pinned my braid up, then covered my head in a shower cap and wrapped the back of my neck in a towel to catch any run-off.

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 02:30 PM
I did indeed use distilled water.

To apply, I first braided my hair and plugged the sink. Then, I basically just poured the mixture onto my scalp while leaning over the sink using the same water bottle I mixed everything in. The liquid that ran off my hair got caught in the sink and my braid soaked up everything caught in the sink.

I pinned my braid up, then covered my head in a shower cap and wrapped the back of my neck in a towel to catch any run-off.

socks

Thank you for the details.

You did 2 important things, IMO.

1. You used distilled water. Some tap water may be ok but most I think is not.

2. You got your hair really wet with the treatment.

From your profile, I can see that you have you have a lot of hair (it is beautiful, BTW, IMO).

That no doubt made the shower cap fit nice and tight.

RedRose
August 21st, 2008, 04:55 PM
I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to be asking this question, but where can you get distilled water from? I live in the UK. And if you can't get distilled water, what is a good substitute? Bottled mineral water? My sister is keen to try this on her hair, and our tap water is very hard and full of minerals so I don't think that it would be a good idea to use that.

Thanks in advance :-)

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 05:00 PM
I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to be asking this question, but where can you get distilled water from? I live in the UK. And if you can't get distilled water, what is a good substitute? Bottled mineral water? My sister is keen to try this on her hair, and our tap water is very hard and full of minerals so I don't think that it would be a good idea to use that.

Thanks in advance :-)

RedRose

This is the right place.

Distilled water is not the same as bottled water.

Distilled water is mineral free.

This is a link on where to buy distilled water in the U.S. but the same type of vendors would apply anywhere IMO.
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Distilled water is used for steam irons, and can also be bought at boating and automotive supply stores, from my research into sources.

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 06:25 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the correct 4 to 1 dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 g honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc. (weight conversion 1 g = 1 ml)
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

Note: A treatment can also be applied to wet hair.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a hat over a shower cap or a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (a must) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
August 21st, 2008, 08:33 PM
Conventional hydrogen peroxide and wounds

"according to numerous medical sites .... there is a downside .... hydrogen peroxide .... also damages healthy cells ... needed for ... wounds to heal .... hinders them from getting to .... where the healing needs to take place. .... HealthFinder publication of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services says don't use hydrogen peroxide on a wound .... interferes with healing. .... The National Safety Council's First Aid Pocket Guide (1996) .... "DO NOT use hydrogen peroxide It does not kill bacteria .... it adversely affects capillary blood flow and wound healing." The Mayo Clinic gives the same advice."
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/h/hydrogen-peroxide.htm

"Avoid antiseptics .... hydrogen peroxide and iodine .... can damage sensitive tissue .... delay healing."
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bedsores/DS00570/DSECTION=treatments-and-drugs



but for the use of honey


"Although .... level of hydrogen peroxide in honey .... very low it is still effective as an antimicrobial agent.

In more than 500 published reports on the clinical usage of honey in open wounds .... no adverse reactions noted other than .... localised stinging sensation .... may be due to the acidity of honey as it has not been reported when the acidity .... neutralised ....
In papers describing .... application of honey to open wounds .... has been reported to be soothing .... relieve pain .... non-irritating .... pain free on application .... and .... no adverse effects .... number of histological studies examining wound tissues .... support the safe use of honey ...."
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

ktani
August 22nd, 2008, 08:09 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon, new honey - updated results, recipe and the condition of her hair following more honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

ktani
August 22nd, 2008, 08:17 AM
kokuryu used a bathing or swim cap to cover her treatments. Here are the results. It is a brilliant idea IMO, keeping the hair very wet and secured.

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

She switched to using the treatment on wet hair for the 3rd treatment.

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

ktani
August 22nd, 2008, 04:09 PM
This is a shout out to all regular honey lightening users.

Brand names if possible please.

Please report the best honey that you have used that leaves little to no residue.

PixieChick11
August 22nd, 2008, 04:14 PM
Just wondering, has anyone every mixed Honey with Hydrogen Peroxide and applied it onto their hair?

I'm too lazy to go through all 200 pages, hehe.:D

ktani
August 22nd, 2008, 04:20 PM
Just wondering, has anyone every mixed Honey with Hydrogen Peroxide and applied it onto their hair?

I'm too lazy to go through all 200 pages, hehe.:D

PixieChick

Yes they have but I do not recommend it.

Please read this thread - it is only 3 pages but the answers you seek are in the 1st 2.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

Spun
August 22nd, 2008, 08:36 PM
Okay so I've read this entire thread and am still nervous about trying it. I have highlighted hair that has grown out about 3 inches. I also had lowlights added when I had the highlights put in.
I'm nervous about this making my hair reddish or coppery. I bought everything I need to try it but I'm still unsure. Will it lighten my highlights more? I want to even everything out but want to forgo the chemicals. I've been doing the b/s a/c/v rinse for a few months now and my curly hair is loving it. I'm trying to avoid chemicals.

ktani
August 22nd, 2008, 08:47 PM
Okay so I've read this entire thread and am still nervous about trying it. I have highlighted hair that has grown out about 3 inches. I also had lowlights added when I had the highlights put in.
I'm nervous about this making my hair reddish or coppery. I bought everything I need to try it but I'm still unsure. Will it lighten my highlights more? I want to even everything out but want to forgo the chemicals. I've been doing the b/s a/c/v rinse for a few months now and my curly hair is loving it. I'm trying to avoid chemicals.

Spun

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

Read and save this post. It has all of the lastest information in various forms plus links to pictures.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

I cannot predict results but you can strand text.

2 people bypassed red altogether and went from brown to blonde here.

On medium shades of hair

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the correct 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

ktani
August 23rd, 2008, 06:30 AM
This is relavant to this thread, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241336&postcount=36

ktani
August 23rd, 2008, 08:24 AM
For those new to this thread, please read the links in this post to get the latest details on honey lightening.

Start Here with the basics, in this link.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=237414&postcount=1964

This link is a one post summary of the new honey lightening recommendations, with explanations and links. It is in my signature too.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

This is a shortened version of the post in the link above.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628


Pictures of honey lightening with the correct 4 to 1 dilution, which shows faster, better results reported.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
August 23rd, 2008, 08:51 AM
This thread discusses the differences between the natural peroxide in honey lightening and conventional peroxide and gives a possible option to prevent hair damage before conventional colouring. I also explain why I do not think that adding conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is a good idea.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
August 23rd, 2008, 12:08 PM
The difference the correct 4 to 1 dilution can make in combination with the correct method. wintersun99 made sure that her hair was completely wet for the latest treatments and secured her shower cap, by wearing a hat over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersun99 - more on her application to get the final current results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228962&postcount=1912

wintersun99 - on how to secure a shower cap for honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=228968&postcount=1914

socks
August 23rd, 2008, 12:46 PM
I'm doing another treatment today, this time with the correct dilution and no cinnamon (the cinnamon made my skin a little itchy).

ktani
August 23rd, 2008, 12:57 PM
I'm doing another treatment today, this time with the correct dilution and no cinnamon (the cinnamon made my skin a little itchy).

socks

Yes, the spices can be problematic for some, even in small amounts.

Don't forget to make sure that your hair is really wet, like last time and that the shower cap is secured snugly on your head, to keep the hair very wet.

Good luck!

I look forward to your results. Pictures are welcome if you can but no worries if you cannot.

Spun
August 23rd, 2008, 11:32 PM
For some reason I opted for the cinnamon even though I read all the warnings and saw the pictures! I've never had a negative reaction to anything before so I was overly confident. All I can say is everyone Test on a small area of the skin first regardless of past experiences! My skin does NOT like cinnamon! I looked in the mirror and I had red streaks all down my face! It freaked me out so I washed it all out immediately! Luckily it went away in like 20 minutes.
I think I'll try again tomorrow but with EVOO and honey.