Honey thread - from TBB and bits from old LHC

[naturechild]

ktani: I finally have my pic. post! whaa whoo! It was very dark before from me dying it I know silly me! So I color Oopsed it. then began again with the honey treatments they really have worked their wonders again. The pic. makes it look kinda fly away at the ends and darker then it is but no one is picture perfect. Though I have seen some here that are to die for!
My goal would be to match my avator. :cheese:
Just though you would like to see!

[ktani]

ktani: I finally have my pic. post! whaa whoo! It was very dark before from me dying it I know silly me! So I color Oopsed it. then began again with the honey treatments they really have worked their wonders again. The pic. makes it look kinda fly away at the ends and darker then it is but no one is picture perfect. Though I have seen some here that are to die for!
My goal would be to match my avator. <hollie>
Just though you would like to see!

naturechild

Thank you posting your picture. Your hair looks great!

Details please, with regards to the honey lightening recipe and method you used.

Also, please tell me how many treatments you did, and the condition of your hair, after all of those honey lightening treatments.

[squiggyflop]

Pictures of build-up on hair as seen with an electron microscope.
http://www.pg.com/science/haircare/hair_twh_98.htm

hmmm the one with the lady who applied hairspray and only washed once a week looks a little more jagged than what i saw with the microscope.. but it looks sort of similar..

ok so i washed my hair today and then looked under the microscope.. (when did i become such a geek?) anyway the hair doesnt seem to look jagged anymore.. i guess the build up is gone.. i did have a mushy feeling when washing but it wasnt as bad.. so im going to go ahead and do another honey treatment..

this time with distilled water.. a guy at the stop and shop went and got it for me from the back..

i will report back

[ktani]

hmmm the one with the lady who applied hairspray and only washed once a week looks a little more jagged than what i saw with the microscope.. but it looks sort of similar..

ok so i washed my hair today and then looked under the microscope.. (when did i become such a geek?) anyway the hair doesnt seem to look jagged anymore.. i guess the build up is gone.. i did have a mushy feeling when washing but it wasnt as bad.. so im going to go ahead and do another honey treatment..

this time with distilled water.. a guy at the stop and shop went and got it for me from the back..

i will report back

squiggy

Sounds good.

I am so glad that your hair is improving just by shampooing it.

That is what has been reported to happen when there is honey residue.

Geekdom, if that is a word, is contageous, lol.

I look forward to your new results.

[naturechild]

I try to do the treatment at least twice a month, at first once a week.
I used a strong brew of chamomile tea with fresh flowers.
I let that cool then put in about a 1/4 cup of cinnamon.
squeeze bear type honey (the cheapo kind) in the 1-4 ratio.
I had used fresh Mullen from the garden, the last few I haven't no particular reason though.
I applied it to dry hair it gets pretty messy but I am patient plus the drips taste good!

I wrapped it all up in plastic wrap, but a warm towel on top of that, to catch the drips then read or just took a break for an hour. I usually used a mild soap just my reg soap did fine getting it all out. and viola.

I have noticed slow permanent lightening, mostly I love the condition. It really took a lot with the color oops and I feel it helped it come back from that. I have real light whips around my face and I love them!
I wouldn't say honey is the revolutionary color enhancer of the future. It is more for the people who love their hair and are concerned enough to take it a healthy slow route. It may take months but it sure works for me.

[naturechild]

oh I forgot to add I dont use all of the chamomile tea or cinn. I use just enough to do the 4-1 and save the rest. WOW I made it sound like I put 1/4 a cup if cinn. on my hair goodness what would that DO?

[ktani]

I try to do the treatment at least twice a month, at first once a week.
I used a strong brew of chamomile tea with fresh flowers.
I let that cool then put in about a 1/4 cup of cinnamon.
squeeze bear type honey (the cheapo kind) in the 1-4 ratio.
I had used fresh Mullen from the garden, the last few I haven't no particular reason though.
I applied it to dry hair it gets pretty messy but I am patient plus the drips taste good!

I wrapped it all up in plastic wrap, but a warm towel on top of that, to catch the drips then read or just took a break for an hour. I usually used a mild soap just my reg soap did fine getting it all out. and viola.

I have noticed slow permanent lightening, mostly I love the condition. It really took a lot with the color oops and I feel it helped it come back from that. I have real light whips around my face and I love them!
I wouldn't say honey is the revolutionary color enhancer of the future. It is more for the people who love their hair and are concerned enough to take it a healthy slow route. It may take months but it sure works for me.

naturechild

Thank you for your recipe and method details.

I am glad that the honey lightening has helped your hair recover from the condition it was in after the color oops, and that the condition of your hair now, post honey lightening, is so good.

Chamomile can add a colour of its own to the hair.

I suggest, for future honey lightening treatments, that you try using straight room temperature distilled water, ground cinnamon and if you have not already used it, the corrected 4 to 1 dilution, of 1 1/2 cups water to 1/4 cup honey.

I think that you will find the results even better.

[ktani]

oh I forgot to add I dont use all of the chamomile tea or cinn. I use just enough to do the 4-1 and save the rest. WOW I made it sound like I put 1/4 a cup if cinn. on my hair goodness what would that DO?

naturechild

Thank you for the clarification - I did wonder about the ground cinnamon but different people have different tolerances for ingredients.

With the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution - corrected version - I think that you will find that you can use less cinnamon than you have previously used and still get good results.

[Zenity]

Okay here are my pictures,

I only have dark light in my pics from my last session with cinnamon, that's why I am adding lighter light and darker light pics from every session so you can have a better idea of what I am getting here.

After first session with honey, distilled water and evoo:

Dark light:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colormiel1oscuro.jpg

Lighter light:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colormiel1-001.jpg

Second session using the same recipe:

Dark light:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colormiel2-oscuro.jpg

Lighter light (i had some jojoba oil in my hair, but I think it did not affect how the color looked)

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colormiel2-002.jpg

Last session using cinnamon & chamomile instead plain distilled water:

Sorry I only have dark light today was cloudy here:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colorcanela03.jpg

I am not posting previous pics, because the colour of my hair was exactly or pretty much the same as the one after my first session and all of the pics I have you cannot really see in detail the hair itself. Sorry about that ;-(

What do you think???

[ktani]

Okay here are my pictures,

I only have dark light in my pics from my last session with cinnamon, that's why I am adding lighter light and darker light pics from every session so you can have a better idea of what I am getting here.

After first session with honey, distilled water and evoo:

Dark light:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colormiel1oscuro.jpg

Lighter light:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colormiel1-001.jpg

Second session using the same recipe:

Dark light:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colormiel2-oscuro.jpg

Lighter light (i had some jojoba oil in my hair, but I think it did not affect how the color looked)

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colormiel2-002.jpg

Last session using cinnamon & chamomile instead plain distilled water:

Sorry I only have dark light today was cloudy here:

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/ZenityNadir/colorcanela03.jpg

I am not posting previous pics, because the colour of my hair was exactly or pretty much the same as the one after my first session and all of the pics I have you cannot really see in detail the hair itself. Sorry about that ;-(

What do you think???

Zenity

Thank you for the pictures and recipes.

I know that others have used darker and lighter light but IMO only the lighter light is necessary and helpful to properly see the colour of the hair.

Also please clarify if the results here are fom you now no longer boiling cinnamon.

By boiling cinnamon - any results IMO would be from the distilled water, honey and evoo only.

And did you use the 4 to 1 corrected dilution in ml or for example 1 1/2 cups of water to 1/4 cup honey?

It looks as if your hair is progressively lightening - please try to take the lighter light pictures in the same light.

[Zenity]

Zenity

Thank you for the pictures and recipes.

I know that others have used darker and lighter light but IMO only the lighter light is necessary and helpful to properly see the colour of the hair.

Also please clarify if the results here are fom you now no longer boiling cinnamon.

By boiling cinnamon - any results IMO would be from the distilled water, honey and evoo only.

And did you use the 4 to 1 corrected dilution in ml or for example 1 1/2 cups of water to 1/4 cup honey?

It looks as if your hair is progressively lightening - please try to take the lighter light pictures in the same light.

Ktani,

In my first 2 sessions i used 25ml of honey per 100ml of distilled water and added a tblsp of evoo.
After my first session I did not notice any change in color, after the second slightly in the existing highlights of my hair and starting to show a bit of redish.

In my last session the only change i made to the previous recipe was, as posted before, boiling the distilled water to use in the recipe with a cinnamon stick and chamomille.
This definetelly changed the color of my hair, making it look more uniform and darker than it was after the 2nd session of honey.

I have been taking pictures at the same time of the day at the same place of the house, but, sunlight is tricky. In my lastest pics, no matter how hard I tried, it was impossible to make them lighter than they are.

[Zenity]

A quick question maybe answered before:

How often can you do the honey lightening? Is there any limit or time to respect between sessions?

Thanks!

[ktani]

Ktani,

In my first 2 sessions i used 25ml of honey per 100ml of distilled water and added a tblsp of evoo.
After my first session I did not notice any change in color, after the second slightly in the existing highlights of my hair and starting to show a bit of redish.

In my last session the only change i made to the previous recipe was, as posted before, boiling the distilled water to use in the recipe with a cinnamon stick and chamomille.
This definetelly changed the color of my hair, making it look more uniform and darker than it was after the 2nd session of honey.

I have been taking pictures at the same time of the day at the same place of the house, but, sunlight is tricky. In my lastest pics, no matter how hard I tried, it was impossible to make them lighter than they are.

Zenity

I understand the difficulty with lighting - just do the best you can.

I appreciate your efforts.

I suggest just using 200 ml room temperature distilled water, add 50 ml of honey, then 1 tablespoon of ground cinnamon, after you have patch tested + 1 tablspoon evoo.

And no heat applied to the recipe at any point or its ingredients.

I also suggest trying a different honey - See the Successful Honeys List, #1, in the recommendations post, in my signature.

It may be that the honey you are using could be replaced by a better one.

[Zenity]

Ktani, I think you have not seen this before:


A quick question maybe answered before:

How often can you do the honey lightening? Is there any limit or time to respect between sessions?

Thanks!

[ktani]

Ktani, I think you have not seen this before:

Zenity

Sorry, I did miss that.

You can honey lighten IMO, as often as you wish - the limit is entirely up to you.

Honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage.

[Zenity]

Ktani,

Thanks a lot for your fast response.
I will follow your suggestion for my next session and see how it goes adding cinnamon to my hair.
BTW, as chamomile is known to add golden tones to the hair, does cinammon add any special range of color? or just bleaches the hair by the perioxide produced?

Thanks again for your time, dedication and patience with us!

[ktani]

Zenity

My pleasure.

I did address this previously, but unboiled ground cinnamon has not been reported to add any colour to the hair in honey lightening, in spite of net articles to the contrary.

[Zenity]

Hmmm...
Makes me wonder...
Have you ever hear about Ardell Unred?
I have some and I would like to test how it could work with this mix to avoid-minimize the red phase....

[ktani]

Zenity

Ardell Unred is a colour drabber or colour additive. It designed to be used with hair colour.

A hairstylist on drabbers

"The colors .... in a shade book .... concentrates or additives and are unstable when used by themselves or used excessively in a color formula. .... isn't always "what you see is what you get" with drabbers. They aren't meant to stand alone ...."
http://www.behindthechair.com/forum/displaythread.aspx?DID=9176

I do not recommend adding Ardell Unred, to the honey lighening recipes.

[ktani]

While grocery shopping tonight, I came across McCormick ground cardamom, which is the brand I recommend for honey lightening recipes.

It has been reported to work well and wash out of the hair easier than cinnamon.

Patch test before tryng it.

Here in Canada, $5.00 and change - not bad IMO, for 42 grams.

[squiggyflop]

wasnt able to do a honey treatment today.. maybe tomorrow

[ktani]

squiggy

No worries.

You are on your own timetable.

I look forward to reading your results whenever you are ready.

And please update as you go, on the the condition of your hair.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I have added your pictures to the Pictures Post.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095


Cool. Thanks for that. :flower:

[ktani]

Cool. Thanks for that. :flower:

Alley Cat

You are most welcome.

[ktani]

Zenity

Thanks to your question on cinnamon and colour, I realized that the recommendations post needed an update.

I added a line of text at the end of #3.

The question has come up before, several times, but the thread is very long now, making it difficult to find things for some people.

The recommendations post was written with that in mind. Everything is there in one place. I update it constantly, as needed.

"3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the 4 to 1 dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Information on ground cardamom can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.
None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair."

[Exodus]

Having a little language problems here.. Even though reading an awful lot of the pages in this thread, I don't really understand "ground cinnamon". I know cinnamon, but I don't understand the "ground" thing (well, I look up the word in the dictionary, but I still don't get what ground cinnamon is, stupid me). I'm not sure is it meant the powder used in cooking? Ground in opposite to what?

[ktani]

Exodus

No problem.

Ground cinnamon is what powdered cinnamon is commonly called.

They are the same thing.

Cinnamon comes in 2 forms - sticks - and powdered, the sticks ground up.

And no question is stupid, IMO.

[Exodus]

Thanks.
Damn English speaking folks to make things difficult (no offence).
*adding cinnamon to shopping list*

[ktani]

Exodus

None taken, lol.

When you buy it - refer to the recommendations link in my signature below to help you use it.

If you have any questions just post or pm me.

I always reply.

[Strongnlong]

Hi ktani and all o y'all :)

I've been growing out my henna since March of this year. I was prepared to grow and trim for a year to get rid of it but after only TWO concious henna lightening I see absolutely no need to cut!!

I used the honey, coconut milk, evoo combo (with a lil' lemon juice)and was pleased BUT when I repeated the same treatment with CINNAMON sans lemon juice most of my henna colour disappeared!! I'm so excited. I plan to do this a few more times and i'm confident that i'm removing the henna while maintaining and even improving the health of my hair. I won't post a colour comparison until the end of the summer, when I surely won;t be the only one to notice the difference.

[ktani]

Hi ktani and all o y'all :)

I've been growing out my henna since March of this year. I was prepared to grow and trim for a year to get rid of it but after only TWO concious henna lightening I see absolutely no need to cut!!

I used the honey, coconut milk, evoo combo (with a lil' lemon juice)and was pleased BUT when I repeated the same treatment with CINNAMON sans lemon juice most of my henna colour disappeared!! I'm so excited. I plan to do this a few more times and i'm confident that i'm removing the henna while maintaining and even improving the health of my hair. I won't post a colour comparison until the end of the summer, when I surely won;t be the only one to notice the difference.

Strongnlong

Thank you for posting your recipes and results.

I am happy to read that you are happy with the results.

How is the condition of your hair after the new recipe?

I recommend trying a slightly different version next time.

Try distilled water, 4 parts water to 1 part honey.

E.g. 30 ml honey with 120 ml distilled water, coconut oil, evoo and cinnamon.

[Strongnlong]

Strongnlong

Thank you for posting your recipes and results.

I am happy to read that you are happy with the results.

How is the condition of your hair after the new recipe?

I recommend trying a slightly different version next time.

Try distilled water, 4 parts water to 1 part honey.

E.g. 30 ml honey with 120 ml distilled water, coconut oil, evoo and cinnamon.

I will try this recipe and let you know how it works out for me.

After the new recipe my hair remained soft, lush and alot less frizzy for several days.

[ktani]

I will try this recipe and let you know how it works out for me.

After the new recipe my hair remained soft, lush and alot less frizzy for several days.

Strongnlong

I am glad to hear that you the condition of your hair is so good.

You do not have to use 30 ml of honey - you can size the recipe - that is just an example of what proportions to use.

The correct 4 to 1 dilution is done by weight.

Honey is heavier than water.

1 gram = 1 ml.

You can weigh out the measurements or convert.

Another example - 1/4 cup of honey would need 340 g or ml of distilled water - or 16 tablespoons or 1 1/2 cups of distilled water.

[ktani]

Thinking about the best way to do roots only with the 4 to 1 dilution.

While pming today, I realized that the best way to do this IMO, is also the simplest and least work intensive.

Mix the honey lightening recipe - distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only - no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients.

Then let it sit for 1 hour - also at room temperature - to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair - at the roots only sections that you want lightened, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush.

This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Pin up the dry hair remaining - in this case - the length - and cover with plastic, to keep the hair out of the way and avoid drips going everywhere.

Let the honey lightening treatment stay on the hair for about 1 hour - I think that it is all the time that should be needed.

[wintersun99]

hi -

two quick questions, in reference to the above post... why apply to dry hair and distilled water should be room temp.?

[ktani]

wintersun99

The recipe applied to wet hair has been reported to "travel" to unwanted areas when the hair has been wet.

The recipe is liquid enough to just wet sections.

The idea is that only the specific area be lightened.

Honey and the other honey lightening ingredients are best stored at room temperature.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452

And in the reseach I read on testing a honey for its peroxide value, the distilled water added to the honey as well as the mix - was kept at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

It has to do with the stability of the ingredients.

[wintersun99]

gotcha, thanks! guess I'll put my distilled water in the cupboard... rats! now I have to wait for it to warm up before applying a new application (off to put it in the shade on the deck) :)

[ktani]

wintersun99

I added these 2 links and text to the honey lightening storage ingredients post, which is in #8, of the recommendations post, linked in my signature below.

Water
Store .... water .... in a cool, dark place.
Replace water every six months."
http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/info.asp?page=2839 (http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/info.asp?page=2839)

Opened water
"To minimize exposure to bacteria, open a container just before use and then refrigerate it .... If no refrigeration .... available, keep the container up high, away from children and pets.
Direct heat and light .... slowly damage plastic containers resulting in eventual leakage .... they should be stored in a dark, cool and dry place.
Water can also be stored in a freezer."
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SS439 (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SS439)

[Alley Cat]

My jarrah honey from beehappy has arrived today. :cheese:
It was packaged well and arrived safely. Now to just try it. :D
I plan to do a treatment later this afternoon :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I am as excited as you are about it, lol.

Great news!

Please give details following your treatment - the condition of your hair and anything else that you care to share.

Yours will be the first Jarrah honey report.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I am as excited as you are about it, lol.

Great news!

Please give details following your treatment - the condition of your hair and anything else that you care to share.

Yours will be the first Jarrah honey report.

I will give you a report. Cool I get to be the first. :cheese:

[ktani]

This is a general shout out to everyone who has done honey lightening.

While there have been successful honey lightening reports, using both pasteurized and raw honey, there has been at least one report that a raw honey did not leave residue, while a pasteurized honey did.

I have also read that there may be a difference in how the two are filtered.

So - please let me know if any of you noticed a difference between the 2 kinds - raw or pasteurized, in terms of residue.

[LuXious]

:lol: I guess some people dont get it;). Maybe they think it'll make it smell good or darken up or something.

Why would we want to darken up hair that we're trying to lighten? That doesn't even make sense. I was heating water, not boiling, to mix with the honey, thinking it would release more peroxide since often heat tends to be a catalyst, but not in this case. The cinnamon was just mixed in after that to boost the honey. I had not read the honey article, just skimmed through the thread.

So anyway, I don't appreciate the "some people don't get it" and wink. Comes across wrong. Some people are cautious about the tone of their posts.

[ktani]

LuXious

Her remark was really in response to my comment on boiling cinnamom and knowing her previous posts, was not with you in mind or meant to be harsh, IMO.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=165964&postcount=1438

My reaction in part was the same as yours.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=165974&postcount=1439

There were some posts on darkening hair as well, that were confusing.

And I was having trouble understanding the origins of the boilng cinnamon references after they kept coming up.

While I cannot speak for Aisha25, I honestly believe that the intent was not to be sarcastic or insensitive.

I take full responsibilty for the issue being discussed in a way that led to this and I am very sorry that this was the result.

[Aisha25]

LuXious

Her remark was really in response to my comment on boiling cinnamom and knowing her previous posts, was not with you in mind or meant to be harsh, IMO.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=165964&postcount=1438

My reaction in part was the same as yours.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=165974&postcount=1439

There were some posts on darkening hair as well, that were confusing.

And I was having trouble understanding the origins of the boilng cinnamon references after they kept coming up.

While I cannot speak for Aisha25, I honestly believe that the intent was not to be sarcastic or insensitive.

I take full responsibilty for the issue being discussed in a way that led to this and I am very sorry that this was the result.
Yes Ktani is right I didnt mean anything to you or anyone personally. Me and Ktani were just conversationg and I was just being silly with her to make her in better mood. That was my only intent in my post. Sorry to anyone who misread my posts.

[ktani]

Aisha25

At the time, I had interpreted what you said as a means of lightening my mood.

I was getting frustrated with myself, thinking I had not been clear enough, so that people would not have to have problems with the recipes.

[Aisha25]

Aisha25

At the time, I had interpreted what you said as a means of lightening my mood.

I was getting frustrated with myself, thinking I had not been clear enough, so that people would not have to have problems with the recipes.
Yeah I know that was my intent too Ktani. I never want to see you in bad mood as you are my favorite honey geek:laugh: and always wish to see you happy:flowers:!

[ktani]

Aisha25

Thank you.

I think that the real problem here was that although I did understand you, what you wrote was open to interpretation.

I have edited countless times for that very reason.

I have done exactly the same thing.

I know exactly what I mean to say at the time but others could interpret what I say differently.

Sometimes I do not get the chance to do that - I am quoted.

It is a risk we all take with written only communication.

No one can see our faces, or hear the inflection in our voices, to interpret what we are saying differently, than what is written.

[Aisha25]

Aisha25

Thank you.

I think that the real problem here was that although I did understand you, what you wrote was open to interpretation.

I have edited countless times for that very reason.

I have done exactly the same thing.

I know exactly what I mean to say at the time but others could interpret what I say differently.

Sometimes I do not get the chance to do that - I am quoted.

It is a risk we all take with written only communication.

No one can see our faces or hear the inflection in our voices to interpret what we are saying differently than what is written.
Yes that is true that is the only problem with the interwebs no one can see our expressions or hear our tone. Thanks for handling this in a fast and complete manner Ktani.

[ktani]

Aisha25

I hope that I have.

I believe that this was all a misunderstanding.

I appreciate you responding about your intent, as well.

Only LuXious can say if both you and I did help to clear this up.

[Islandgrrl]

I have a question (imagine that! :silly:). Since I've searched for an answer and either have missed the one post that contains it, or the question hasn't been asked yet, I'm gonna ask it!

Is there a quantifiable difference in the lightening achieved with pasteurized honey vs raw, unpasteurized honey? I'm planning on a lightening treatment this evening and happen to have some of each on hand and I'd like to get the most bang for my buck!

[ktani]

Islandgrrl[/I];173981]I have a question (imagine that! :silly:). Since I've searched for an answer and either have missed the one post that contains it, or the question hasn't been asked yet, I'm gonna ask it!

Is there a quantifiable difference in the lightening achieved with pasteurized honey vs raw, unpasteurized honey? I'm planning on a lightening treatment this evening and happen to have some of each on hand and I'd like to get the most bang for my buck!

Islandgrrl

Not that has been reported - no.

What can make the difference in the amount of lightening is the kind honey (plant source), the recipe and the method.

If you look at the link in my signature below - there is a Successful Honeys List in #1 of the recommendations.

It goes by brand names mostly, because different brands, of say clover honey, have been reported to work differently.

Again that is the plant source - different brands no doubt contain different clover honeys.

#9 tells you some honeys to avoid.

[ktani]

Taking another look at the method for applying the new honey lightening recipes.

The recommended honey lightening recipes have completely changed - distilled water has replaced conditioner.

What has not changed is the method for applying a treatment.

It is time IMO, for the application method to keep pace with the recipe changes.

This is now what I recommend.

1. Mix the honey lightening recipe - everything at room temperature - no heat applied to any ingredient at any time (except for herbal tea if used - that has been prepared ahead of time and cooled to room temperature) - and let the recipe sit for 1 hour - also at room temperature - to let the honey produce its maximum peroxide value.

2. The hair should be freshly washed and slightly damp or dry. This should help make drips less of a problem. The recipes are liquid enough to fully saturate the hair.

3. Apply the recipe with a tint, blush, basting brush or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

The reported problems with letting the honey produce its maximum peroxide value while on the hair; the plastic slips and the hair starts to dry in places, drips are uncomfortable (the treatment will drip more on already wet hair).

The new method ensures that the honey’s peroxide value is already at maximum strength and the hair does not have to kept wet, in order for that to develop.

The plastic now just ensures that the hair is out of the way and that most of the drips are contained.

[ktani]

The basics of this post
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=174258&postcount=1559

have been added to the recommendations post, linked in my signature, #13.

[Alley Cat]

Taking another look at the method for applying the new honey lightening recipes.

The recommended honey lightening recipes have completely changed - distilled water has replaced conditioner.

What has not changed is the method for applying a treatment.

It is time IMO, for the application method to keep pace with the recipe changes.

This is now what I recommend.

1. Mix the honey lightening recipe - everything at room temperature - no heat applied to any ingredient at any time (except for herbal tea if used - that has been prepared ahead of time and cooled to room temperature) - and let the recipe sit for 1 hour - also at room temperature - to let the honey produce its maximum peroxide value.

2. The hair should be freshly washed and slightly damp or dry. This should help make drips less of a problem. The recipes are liquid enough to fully saturate the hair.

3. Apply the recipe with a tint, blush, basting brush or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

The reported problems with letting the honey produce its maximum peroxide value while on the hair; the plastic slips and the hair starts to dry in places, drips are uncomfortable (the treatment will drip more on already wet hair).

The new method ensures that the honey’s peroxide value is already at maximum strength and the hair does not have to kept wet, in order for that to develop.

The plastic now just ensures that the hair is out of the way and that most of the drips are contained.
I don't do number 2. I don't wash my hair before hand just to save on time and water. I use this as my washing method and shampoo and condition after. I apply the mixture straight to dry hair. :shrug:

[Alley Cat]

Ok update on my first jarrah honey treatment as promised. I used 40g of jarrah honey to 160g of distilled water letting it sit an hour before applied it to my hair and left it an hour.
My hair feels really nice as usual. Funny thing was when I shampooed and conditioned my hair at first it didn't feel as nice as normal but it dried really nice and feels lovely the day after my treatment.
I can see it has lightened some more my hair is a slightly different colour ; hard to explain really. :shrug: i don't think photo's would show a change but I can see a change.
I will continue with more treatments for now. By the way the jarrah is a dark colour almost the same as the Manuka colour was. :)

[ktani]

Ok update on my first jarrah honey treatment as promised. I used 40g of jarrah honey to 160g of distilled water letting it sit an hour before applied it to my hair and left it an hour.
My hair feels really nice as usual. Funny thing was when I shampooed and conditioned my hair at first it didn't feel as nice as normal but it dried really nice and feels lovely the day after my treatment.
I can see it has lightened some more my hair is a slightly different colour ; hard to explain really. :shrug: i don't think photo's would show a change but I can see a change.
I will continue with more treatments for now. By the way the jarrah is a dark colour almost the same as the Manuka colour was. :)

Alley Cat

Thank you for the 1st report on results with Jarrah honey.

#2 of that recommendation is general. It really depends on what is on the hair. If there is no problem - like you are experiencing - then it is not necessary to wash the hair first.

I am glad that the condition of your hair with the Jarrah honey is so good and that the lightening is visible to you right away.

Thank you for letting me know the colour of the Jarrah honey too - it can vary from what I have read.

For a honey that, for example is known to work well, that is a single type of honey, or is known to have a high peroxide value like Jarrah honey, the colour is not important, but it is nice to know.

It is when buying a blend of honeys that the dark coloured honeys become an issue.

Single source dark coloured honeys are not necessarily the best choices. It depends on the plant source.

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I am going to ammend the 2nd recommendation on washing the hair first before applying a honey lightening treatment.

If there is for example, aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing unrinsed out rinse, heavy conditioner or styling products on the hair, I think it is better to wash or rinse the hair first, then dry it.

Aloe vera gel contains more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel - about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml (g) or 1 cup.
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw - 112 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

"9. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

If not - then it should be fine just to apply a honey lightening treatment on dry unwashed hair.

[ktani]

Ammemded. See the recommendations post in my signature below.

Thank you Alley Cat.

"13. Mix the honey lightening recipe, everything at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce its maximum peroxide value. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, and slightly damp or dry, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing unrinsed out rinse, heavy conditioner or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can be applied to dry, unwashed hair. This should help make drips less of a problem (the treatment will drip more on already wet hair).
The recipes are liquid enough to fully saturate the hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The plastic ensures that the hair is out of the way and that most of the drips are contained."

[squiggyflop]

thanks for the link ktani.. i havent done another honey treatment for various reasons which include me finding out i could rent dvds from the library and i became addicted to a certain show and borrowed like 15 dvds in the series (over the past couple of days) plus ive been really busy.. so busy that i havent washed my hair in days.. im sure eventually ill find the time.. but probably not until after i watch every episode of smallville

[ktani]

squiggy

You are most welcome.

It is the July 4th holiday week where you are - enjoy it!

[LuXious]

Yes Ktani is right I didnt mean anything to you or anyone personally. Me and Ktani were just conversationg and I was just being silly with her to make her in better mood. That was my only intent in my post. Sorry to anyone who misread my posts.

This is me ----> :soapbox:

Sorry.:flower:

[ktani]

This is me ----> :soapbox:

Sorry.:flower:
LuXious

No worries.

Your feelings were valid - they were your feelings.

You could not have known at the time where Aisha25's response was coming from.

This is a lesson to us all IMO, on being careful of how we word and interpret things.

And the importance of open discussion if there is a problem.

What happened with you could easily have happed to anyone. It has happened to me, both ways.

[firebird]

Thanks for the updated recommendations ktani, and I love your new avatar! Applying to dry hair will make it so much easier than having to get in the shower twice :)

[ktani]

Thanks for the updated recommendations ktani, and I love your new avatar! Applying to dry hair will make it so much easier than having to get in the shower twice :)

firebird

You are most welcome.

Thank you.

I love the avatar too.

It was jessie58's idea - a great one, as it turned out.

I am not digital camera enabled yet, so I went picture hunting.

That one turned out to be free and not copyrighted.

And the colours are beautiful, IMO.

There is only one problem with it - it makes me hungry, lol.

As to the new recommendations - they should solve the drips problem to a large degree, lessening the desire of those who wanted to thicken a recipe, and help ensure the best results, with the honey peroxide value being at maximum, when a treatment is applied.

For you - the only thing that should still be added at the last minute IMO, and not before, is the cassia.

You can add a bit of distilled water to that, just prior to it adding to the recipe, then apply the treatment to your hair.

[ktani]

The 4 to 1 dilution is still a problem for some people.

It took me awhile to get it clear in my mind as well.

Here is a simplifed version. Honey is heavier than water. The 4 to 1 dilution is based on weight but it can be converted.

For the correct 4 parts distilled water to 1 part honey dilution - you can use ml or grams.

1 ml = 1 gram

For the recommended minimum amount of honey, 10 grams or ml, you would need 40 ml or grams of distilled water.

50 ml of honey would need 200 ml of distilled water etc.

or tablespoons - these are US conversions.

1/8th cup of honey = 2 tablespoons, so you would need 8 tablespoons of distilled water.

1/4 cup of honey = 4 tablespoons - you would need 16 tablespoons of distilled water.

See the calculator in this link and the conversion tables. The conversion tables are US measurements.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

[LadyPolaris]

I'm on my 3rd honey lightening treatment today - I have it in my hair right now in fact! I'm using a modified recipe in accordance to ktani's recent discoveries:


- 1 part honey
(This one is not the Bio21 orange blossom honey I used before. It's a darker honey, from a mixed source.)

- 4 parts distilled water at room temperature
(Before, I used filtered water to make chamomile tea, and let it cool until lukewarm or just above room temperature.)

- 2 tbsp. ground cinnamon
(Unchanged. I cannot seem to find ground cardamom around, only the seeds; I'll probably have to order it online.)

- 1 tbsp. EVOO
(I used coconut oil before.)


I let it sit for 1 hour and applied it to my dry hair, it was last washed yesterday morning (diluted shampoo, CO conditioner, rinsed out, then a drop of leave-in - mixed butters and oils, on the ends only). I don't think the peroxide will have a problem with any residue, let's see!

I plan on leaving it on my hair for at least 1 hour, maybe more, depending on the circumstances.

I'll report later on or tomorrow, when my hair is dry, with the total time of the treatment, the perceived results and a photo (that'll have to wait until daylight is out again).

BTW! My beloved shampoo bars from Ida at CV had probably been working against the honey lightening with all the castor oil they contain, so I switched to her soap bars instead. According to Ida, soap bars only have about 3% castor oil. And her Chamomile & Calendula turns out to be a great all-over bar - body and hair! My hair likes the switch. It seemed to behave better and less tangly with the most moisturizing shampoo bars, and soap bars are more superfatted, so it really loves the soaps. :)

[ktani]

I'm on my 3rd honey lightening treatment today - I have it in my hair right now in fact! I'm using a modified recipe in accordance to ktani's recent discoveries:


- 1 part honey
(This one is not the Bio21 orange blossom honey I used before. It's a darker honey, from a mixed source.)

- 4 parts distilled water at room temperature
(Before, I used filtered water to make chamomile tea, and let it cool until lukewarm or just above room temperature.)

- 2 tbsp. ground cinnamon
(Unchanged. I cannot seem to find ground cardamom around, only the seeds; I'll probably have to order it online.)

- 1 tbsp. EVOO
(I used coconut oil before.)


I let it sit for 1 hour and applied it to my dry hair, it was last washed yesterday morning (diluted shampoo, CO conditioner, rinsed out, then a drop of leave-in - mixed butters and oils, on the ends only). I don't think the peroxide will have a problem with any residue, let's see!

I plan on leaving it on my hair for at least 1 hour, maybe more, depending on the circumstances.

I'll report later on or tomorrow, when my hair is dry, with the total time of the treatment, the perceived results and a photo (that'll have to wait until daylight is out again).

BTW! My beloved shampoo bars from Ida at CV had probably been working against the honey lightening with all the castor oil they contain, so I switched to her soap bars instead. According to Ida, soap bars only have about 3&#37; castor oil. And her Chamomile & Calendula turns out to be a great all-over bar - body and hair! My hair likes the switch. It seemed to behave better and less tangly with the most moisturizing shampoo bars, and soap bars are more superfatted, so it really loves the soaps. :)

LadyPolaris

Thank you for posting your recipe and details.

This all sounds good in terms of proportions and ingredients and the switch to the soap bars.

To save youself some money - you can buy cardamom seeds and grind them youself with a mortar and pestle.

It will be a lot less expensive than online ordering.

I look forward to your results.

[LadyPolaris]

ktani, you're most welcome! Thank you for the guidance!

I would buy the cardamom seeds, but I don't think I can grind them nearly as finely as storebought ground cardamom with the tools I have. The ground cardamom I found online is just about the same price as the seeds, so I'll probably order it, unless I find it soon in one of the health food stores I've been paying visits to. :) It will pay off, I'm sure! Cinnamon doesn't do much for me in the way of reactions (all I get is a rather nice minty tingle from it), but I'm taking all the extra peroxide I can get!

I'll probably wash this off in a bit. Nearly 2 hours of treatment, it's good enough, I think. I'm looking forward to the results of this round with distilled water and EVOO, and the new honey! Only cardamom missing now. :)

Hoping for good daylight tomorrow!

[ktani]

LadyPolaris

Good luck!

[ktani]

Results will depend on how much residue, and what kind of leave-ins there are on the hair, but for convenience, a distilled water with just honey treatment that has been left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, in advance of application, can be applied to unwashed, dry hair more often.

The boosters have been reported to require more time and attention to wash out in some cases.

Treatments with boosters can be done when there is more time available.

With the 4 to 1 dilution, the results have been reported to be much faster per treatment than with previous dilutions and ingredients, so a lot of treatments should not be required, depending on the desired lightening goal.

Alley Cat has been doing the treatments more frequently and based on her results, has been making steady progress. Very dark, almost black, colour-treated hair is notoriously difficult to lighten.

She got results early on, after the first few treatments, and if you look at her length and ends in the 2nd picture, you can clearly see that her hair is lightening very nicely. Distilled water was not used in all of the treatments and the 4 to 1 dilution was not corrected until recently either, because I had not realized until fairly recently, that the dilution needs to be done by weight.

Letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application, was an option before - it is now recommended as the preferred method for the treaments, because it allows the peroxide value of the honey to be at full strength, before a recipe is applied to the hair.

From the Pictures Post, #15, in the link in my signature below.

"Alley Cat - on chemically dyed almost black hair - the 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water"
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

[ktani]

I don't do number 2. I don't wash my hair before hand just to save on time and water. I use this as my washing method and shampoo and condition after. I apply the mixture straight to dry hair. :shrug:

Alley Cat on her honey lightening method from this post. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=174652&postcount=1561

[ktani]

And this is what distilled water and honey can do after only 1 treatment, with a very small amount of a booster, without letting the recipe sit for 1 hour, in advance of application. This is also in #15, in the link in my signature, below.

I think the results with a treatment left to sit in advance of application could be even better.

Note: soleluna's hair was wet prior to applying the treatment because she rinsed off a lemon juice rinse that she had left in her hair.

"soleluna - on hennaed hair - the 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe"
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php? (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377)

[wintersun99]

1/8th cup of honey = 2 tablespoons, so you would need 8 tablespoons of distilled water.

1/4 cup of honey = 4 tablespoons - you would need 16 tablespoons of distilled water.

This is what I needed! Conversions have a tendency to give me a headache, which is why I "wing it" cooking too... :D

[ktani]

wintersun99

You are not the only one, lol.

When I first realized that the 4 to 1 dilution was incorrect as I had stated it, the conversions drove me mad!

But this link is amazing, IMO.

You can use the calculator or the conversion tables.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

The calculator I found to be difficult - I could not get it to work.

ETA: I just got the calculator to work.

[ktani]

Interesting, IMO.

To use the calculator, enter the measurement in the "Enter Amount" space, then highlight the measurements in each column below, and you automatically get the result. You do not have to click anything or hit enter, which I was doing, in error.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

1 cup honey Metric = 360 grams

1 cup honey US = 340 grams

So, depending on where you live and the measuring system you use - it can be fun or a challenge.

You can just do what Alley Cat does - use straight grams.

or straight ml - 1 gram = 1 ml

The differences are not huge. The conversion tables are US measurements.

1/8 cup honey Metric = 45 grams. You would need 180 grams or ml distilled water.

1/8 cup honey US = 42.5 grams. - You would need 170 grams or ml distilled water.

1/8 cup honey Metric = 2.12 tablespoons. You would need 8.48 tablespoons distilled water.

1/8 cup honey US = 2 tablespoons.----------You would need 8 tablespoons distilled water.

[LadyPolaris]

ktani, is there any problem in diluting the honey slightly more than 1:4 ratio? I don't use measuring spoons or cups to measure my treatments, I judge by eye (very scientific, I know!) - so I always leave a small amount of extra water to be sure that the honey has at least 4 parts of water to release peroxide in. Since the final mix is very watery anyway, I figured a little bit more water wouldn't make a difference. So, my final mix ends up being 1:4.5 or close. Is this bad for peroxide release, though? Should I make an effort to be exactly on the 1:4 mark?


It's Winter here on the Southern hemisphere, and the days are usually humid and overcast. Today was no exception, so I had to use flash in this (lousy) photo, eek! Anyway, here it is - the recipe for my 3rd treatment:

- 1 part dark honey from a mixed source
- 4 parts (or just a little over that) distilled water at room temperature
- 2 tbsp ground cinnamon (for some reason, this one was much harder to wash out than the previous recipes - unchanged amount though. I may try 1 very full tbsp next. Or cardamom, which I'm probably ordering online.)
- 1 tbsp EVOO (this was way too much on my hair - I plan on using 1/2 tbsp next.)

Edited to add: I let this mix sit for 1 hour releasing peroxide before applying it to my hair. It seems to be more effective this way than letting it release while on the hair - no risk of it not getting enough moisture.


And the crappy peekshure:


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/7e21da0e.jpg

[ktani]

Okay, today we had a sliver of sunlight! (Not enough for a beautiful direct sunlight picture though!) I took the photo in the same conditions as the first one, for consistency.

Here's my first picture - one day after my 1st honey+cinnamon treatment. My 4 parts water were actually 2 parts conditioner, 2 parts warm chamomile tea. 2tbsp cinnamon, no other additives. Bio21 honey (supposedly orange blossom). Left on for 3 hours.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/4da56c3f.jpg


And here's my second picture - one day after my 2nd honey+cinnamon treatment. I used all 4 parts cool chamomile tea this time, 2tbsp cinnamon like last time PLUS 1/2 tbsp coconut oil. Same Bio21 honey. Left on for 3 hours as well.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/5c071ad1.jpg


I can definitely see the henna fading away into an orange fox fur color. The rest of my hair seems to be slowly becoming less of a medium-dark ashy brown and more of a medium warm brown. :joy:

Many thanks to ktani for her research!

LadyPolaris

By comparison, to your earlier results, with conditioner and a different 4 to 1 dilution, your hair is definitely less brown and more red - much more red.

It is definitely lightening, IMO.

No, I do not think a bit of extra distilled water should harm anything.

You may want to consider measuring though.

[ktani]

LadyPolaris

I just added your results to the Pictures Post, #15, in the link in my signature, below.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

[LadyPolaris]

I agree ktani, it was brown-burgundy and now it's more of an orange auburn. That is definitely some lifting of henna layers. Plus my virgin hair is a lighter ashy brown now (even though you can't really see it in the pictures), and the finer hairs were lightened a lot, while the coarser hairs, less so. My husband commented this morning on how it looks like I have crazy highlights - some sections lighter than the others (I'm guessing the hennaed parts are becoming lighter than the virgin parts) and some fine hairs a lot lighter than the others. (Which is to be expected, since fine hairs will lighten faster anyway.)

Absolutely no damage to the hair so far, it's soft and shiny. The only change in texture was perceived when washing the mixture off my hair - the few stubborn cinnamon grounds that remained felt like crunchy hair, and the extra oil I mistakenly added to my recipe wasn't too easy to get rid of. But, immediately after my hair was dry from all the thorough washing, COing and rinsing - silky hair, better than before.

Now, to keep at it!

[ktani]

LadyPolaris

Thank you for anticipating my next post - on the condition of your hair.

I am glad that it is so good. "better than before" - I love reading that, lol and you are not the first to say it.

Even with the lighting in your pictures - you hair is now out of the burgundy and brown stages - headed for the lighter tones and in only 3 treatments.

Nicely done!

And your hair looks gorgeous and so shiny.

I would not worry too much about a little exta distilled water - just do not overdo it.

Distilled water, based on the newest results, is the clear winner IMO - beating out other waters and conditioner - by far.

[ktani]

Based on the latest reported results, honey lightening can be very much less gradual than it ever used to be, even on hennaed hair.

This was reported with the 4 to 1 dilution from the beginning of its use, in some cases.

With distilled water - and the corrected 4 to 1 dilution and no conditioner at all in the mixes - more and more reports continue to come in with faster and better results on all kinds of hair colours, including virgin, colour-treated and hennaed hair.

The next step up IMO - will be more results reported, after letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, before applying a recipe to the hair.

[LadyPolaris]

Thank you so much ktani, you're too kind! :)

Yes, after the honey+cinnamon treatments my hair always turns out softer and shinier than it was before, even though while rinsing off the mixture it does not feel that way. (Stubborn cinnamon grounds are the culprits!) As soon as it dries, it feels pampered - thanks to our amazing main lightening agent which is also a humectant.

I'm so happy that even with the horrid lighting I've been getting in these parts you can still notice a shift from burgundy-brown to orange-auburn! I hope my next pictures will be clearer.

My dream lightening goal is a medium-light brown, and then I will do only the occasional henna gloss, and keep on doing the honey treatments, in hopes of keeping a fairly constant orange-red tone and maybe achieve some extra lightening if I can. I'm absolutely amazed at the beautiful tones henna achieves in light brown / dark blonde hair - if I could have a hair wish come true, it would be to have that lovely color.

I believe I'll let go permanently of the chamomile tea I used before in the mixes. Distilled water worked very well and there's no fear of any tiny color deposit - only color lift. Plus, it is more practical!

And I will definitely wait 1 hour from now on, for the peak peroxide release in my mixes. It seems to be the way to go, giving honey and additives the best possible situation to release peroxide to their hearts' content.

Thank you for all the guidance, ktani! :flowers:

[ktani]

Thank you so much ktani, you're too kind! :)

Yes, after the honey+cinnamon treatments my hair always turns out softer and shinier than it was before, even though while rinsing off the mixture it does not feel that way. (Stubborn cinnamon grounds are the culprits!) As soon as it dries, it feels pampered - thanks to our amazing main lightening agent which is also a humectant.

I'm so happy that even with the horrid lighting I've been getting in these parts you can still notice a shift from burgundy-brown to orange-auburn! I hope my next pictures will be clearer.

My dream lightening goal is a medium-light brown, and then I will do only the occasional henna gloss, and keep on doing the honey treatments, in hopes of keeping a fairly constant orange-red tone and maybe achieve some extra lightening if I can. I'm absolutely amazed at the beautiful tones henna achieves in light brown / dark blonde hair - if I could have a hair wish come true, it would be to have that lovely color.

I believe I'll let go permanently of the chamomile tea I used before in the mixes. Distilled water worked very well and there's no fear of any tiny color deposit - only color lift. Plus, it is more practical!

And I will definitely wait 1 hour from now on, for the peak peroxide release in my mixes. It seems to be the way to go, giving honey and additives the best possible situation to release peroxide to their hearts' content.

Thank you for all the guidance, ktani! :flowers:

LadyPolaris

You are most welcome.

Picture lighting can be tricky.

But yes, your colour change is very visible to me.

While I cannot predict how far you can take honey lightening, IMO, you are well on your way to lighter tones.

Considering the fact that you do not want the possibility of any added colour, giving up the chamomile is a good idea IMO, and will be less work for you, not having to prepare it and then let it cool down, before adding the other recipe ingredients.

I am very pleased to see and read your results with distilled water.

The reported results with it, exceed what I hoped for in terms of the kind of difference it is making.

I really do believe that letting a treatment sit for 1 hour at room temperature, before applying it to the hair will make a difference for others too, as I believe it did for you, with this treatment.

Thank you for such a detailed report.

It makes things much easier for others to know exactly what you did and did not use and do.

[LadyPolaris]

Good - I'm on the right track then! :)

You're welcome ktani, and thank you as well!

[ktani]

LadyPolaris

IMO, you are not just on the right track, you are on the honey lightening fast track, lol.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Thank you for the 1st report on results with Jarrah honey.

#2 of that recommendation is general. It really depends on what is on the hair. If there is no problem - like you are experiencing - then it is not necessary to wash the hair first.

I am glad that the condition of your hair with the Jarrah honey is so good and that the lightening is visible to you right away.

Thank you for letting me know the colour of the Jarrah honey too - it can vary from what I have read.

For a honey that, for example is known to work well, that is a single type of honey, or is known to have a high peroxide value like Jarrah honey, the colour is not important, but it is nice to know.

It is when buying a blend of honeys that the dark coloured honeys become an issue.

Single source dark coloured honeys are not necessarily the best choices. It depends on the plant source.

Your welcome.. I know you would be eager to know how I went on with the condition and the lightening as well:) I was curious myself to see the colour of the jarrah.


Alley Cat

I am going to ammend the 2nd recommendation on washing the hair first before applying a honey lightening treatment.

If there is for example, aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing unrinsed out rinse, heavy conditioner or styling products on the hair, I think it is better to wash or rinse the hair first, then dry it.

Aloe vera gel contains more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel - about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml (g) or 1 cup.
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw - 112 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

"9. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

If not - then it should be fine just to apply a honey lightening treatment on dry unwashed hair.

I mainly did that due to saving on water and laziness but if if helps others that's great. :)


Ammemded. See the recommendations post in my signature below.

Thank you Alley Cat.

"13. Mix the honey lightening recipe, everything at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce its maximum peroxide value. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, and slightly damp or dry, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing unrinsed out rinse, heavy conditioner or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can be applied to dry, unwashed hair. This should help make drips less of a problem (the treatment will drip more on already wet hair).
The recipes are liquid enough to fully saturate the hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The plastic ensures that the hair is out of the way and that most of the drips are contained."
Your welcome. :)

[Alley Cat]

Interesting, IMO.

To use the calculator, enter the measurement in the "Enter Amount" space, then highlight the measurements in each column below, and you automatically get the result. You do not have to click anything or hit enter, which I was doing, in error.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

1 cup honey Metric = 360 grams

1 cup honey US = 340 grams

So, depending on where you live and the measuring system you use - it can be fun or a challenge.

You can just do what Alley Cat does - use straight grams.

or straight ml - 1 gram = 1 ml

The differences are not huge. The conversion tables are US measurements.

1/8 cup honey Metric = 45 grams. You would need 180 grams or ml distilled water.

1/8 cup honey US = 42.5 grams. - You would need 170 grams or ml distilled water.

1/8 cup honey Metric = 2.12 tablespoons. You would need 8.48 tablespoons distilled water.

1/8 cup honey US = 2 tablespoons.----------You would need 8 tablespoons distilled water.

Using straight grams I find is easy as honey is so runny and getting a measurement with tablespoons or even a cup measurement was tricky. Grams is perfect if you have good scales. :thumbsup:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I get as much from the reported results as I do from the research I read.

That is why I record results reports - I often go back and reread things I may have missed or there is something I had not thought of that a report is helpful with.

It is all good IMO.

It all works together.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I get as much from the reported results as I do from the research I read.

That is why I record results reports - I often go back and reread things I may have missed or there is something I had not thought of that a report is helpful with.

It is all good IMO.

It all works together.


That's good. :)

I must say my hair has been so super soft since my last treatment . I would compare it to the softness I used to get after a henna treatment. I don't know why that would be but it's been lovely. :cheese:

[ktani]

That's good. :)

I must say my hair has been so super soft since my last treatment . I would compare it to the softness I used to get after a henna treatment. I don't know why that would be but it's been lovely. :cheese:

Alley Cat

I do not know why that would be either, but I am very happy to read it.

If your hair is so soft, to me it means that the Jarrah honey is not leaving much if any residue.

I have read about varied results after a henna treatment, including dry hair right after one.

It is great to know that for you, that was not the case and that the Jarrah honey is working out so well.

I thought that it would but thinking is not the same as getting reports on results.

I rely on all of you for that.

Even if I honey lightened, which I do not - my results would only be my results.

What I monitor this thread for are patterns from multiple results.

[Vainjane]

I have been researching the honey thread for a few weeks now and I think I'm ready for my first honey lightening treatment. I have dark honey, distilled water, EVOO, and cardamom-ground from a local Middle Eastern Grocery. My goal is to blend several inches of virgin new growth w/ chemically highlighted ends. I don't have food scales; will measuring by volume work? This is the plan... 1/4 cup honey, 1 cup distilled water, 1 Tblspn EVOO, 1 Tblspn cardamom. Mix all, let set 1 hr, apply to dry hair, and leave on at least one hour.

[ktani]

I have been researching the honey thread for a few weeks now and I think I'm ready for my first honey lightening treatment. I have dark honey, distilled water, EVOO, and cardamom-ground from a local Middle Eastern Grocery. My goal is to blend several inches of virgin new growth w/ chemically highlighted ends. I don't have food scales; will measuring by volume work? This is the plan... 1/4 cup honey, 1 cup distilled water, 1 Tblspn EVOO, 1 Tblspn cardamom. Mix all, let set 1 hr, apply to dry hair, and leave on at least one hour.Vainjane

Hi and welcome to LHC and Honey!

Thank you for posting your proposed recipe. It sounds perfect but you need to get the amount of distilled water right. Honey is heavier than water.

The 4 to 1 dilution is based on using 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight, which you can then convert.

You live in the U.S., so you can use US conversions.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

1/4 cup of honey US = 3 oz

So you need 12 oz of distilled water, which works out to 1 1/2 cups of distilled water. 1 cup of water = 8 oz.

[Vainjane]

Thanks for the correction. I will post again once I have done the first treatment and have pictures.

[ktani]

Thanks for the correction. I will post again once I have done the first treatment and have pictures.

Vainjane

You are very welcome.

If you find that the mix is too much for your hair, you can size it down.

1/8 cup of honey would need 6 oz of distilled water, etc.

I look forward to your results.

[wintersun99]

I have new pictures... both taken one right after the other, interesting that they are showing color differently. If you can imagine, the darker parts of the hair is the Indigo that turned my hair nearly black (all of my hair was this color at one point.) There is definite lightening happening. The only part of my hair that is stubbornly holding onto the black of the Indigo is the bottom 4" on each "side" of my head... perhaps this makes sense as that is where the worst of the damage occurred from over-bleaching.

The pictures will be quite large... I cannot get them to re-size. I've sent a request for help from the Mods...Edit to add: Thank you Flaxen!

Original Mix:
1/2 c honey
1/2 c conditioner
1 tsp EVOO
*great deep conditioner, but no lightening effect (that I could see)

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/009.jpg
Starting point

Current Mix
1/2 c distilled water/ Edit to add: this needs to be increased to 3/4 cup
2 Tablespoon honey
1 Tablespoon cinnamon

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/006.jpg
July '08 - about 7 months later

[ktani]

wintersun99

Yes, you have very definite lightening, IMO.

Please give me details for others on exactly what you used, did to achieve this - your recipe, method etc.

[wintersun99]

OK - the mixes have been edited to the post. I forgot to add that I did 2 mayo treatments this week, left on for about 2 hours as a protein treatment although I think they also helped with the Indigo fading, most especially on the under-layers (there is virtually NO indigo left there!) Not to mention how SOFT my new growth feels... sigh

[ktani]

wintersun99

Thank you for the recipes.

I am not surprised at the honey/conditioner recipes not giving you much lightening - conditioners can be difficult because of their ingredients.

That is why I no longer recommend that they be used in honey lightening.

They can also affect the 4 to 1 dilution because of their water content.

I do not know what is in your mayo, so I cannot comment on that. Can you please list the ingredients?



I am very pleased for you that the current recipe has increased the lightening that you started to get with the Second Adaptation.

I think that the amount of distilled water in your current mix for honey lightening, is off by 2 oz though, or 1/4 cup less than what it needs to be for the correct 4 to 1 dilution.

The 4 to 1 dilution is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight - honey is heavier than water.

Your current recipe
1/2 cup distilled water - you need 3/4 cup if you used an 8 oz cup US measurement.
2 tablespoons honey = 1/8 cup US and 1/8 cup honey US = 1.5 oz by weight (x 4 = 6 oz = 3/4 cup)
1 tablespoon cinnamon

"1/8 cup of honey = 42.5 gram = 1.5 ounce = 2 tbl.sp" US measurements
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

I think that with the needed increased distilled water, you will see even more lightening.



Your hair looks really shiny.

How is the condition of your hair after the honey lightening? I realize that the mayo made your hair soft - I am wondering how your hair was right after the honey lightening treatment.



I suggest that for your next treatment, with the dilution corrected, and everything mixed at room temperature, that you let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value, before you apply the treatment to your hair.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I do not know why that would be either, but I am very happy to read it.

If your hair is so soft, to me it means that the Jarrah honey is not leaving much if any residue.

I have read about varied results after a henna treatment, including dry hair right after one.

It is great to know that for you, that was not the case and that the Jarrah honey is working out so well.

I thought that it would but thinking is not the same as getting reports on results.

I rely on all of you for that.

Even if I honey lightened, which I do not - my results would only be my results.

What I monitor this thread for are patterns from multiple results.

I will continue to see how my hair is after the treatments . I will probably step up the treatments as I need to get my roots done soon as they aren't pretty. I am doing another treatment again tonight.:)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Thank you for continuing to report on the condition of your hair.

I look forward to your next report.

What is your natural colour?

[ktani]

I have made notes in the Pictures Post, to help clarify the 4 to 1 dilution, and hopefully make the calculations easier to understand.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

The Pictures Post is #15, in the recommendations post, linked in my signature below.

[ktani]

For me, the simplest way to understand the 4 to 1 dilution is by weight - 1 g = 1 ml.

50 g honey would require 200 g or ml distilled water.

For those who like to use cups - in US measurments.

For every 1/8 cup honey US, (2 tablespoons), use 3/4 cup distilled water.

For every 1/4 cup honey US, (4 tablespoons), use 1 1/2 cups distilled water.

[wintersun99]

wintersun99

Your hair looks really shiny.

How is the condition of your hair after the honey lightening? I realize that the mayo made your hair soft - I am wondering how your hair was right after the honey lightening treatment.

The condition was fine, it was soft and shiny. I didn't feel like it was as intensely conditioned as the honey/conditioner mix, which I realize is NOT the best for lightening. So I'm wondering: would the lightening mix work if I substituted coconut milk for the distilled water? I'm all for multi-tasking and if I could "up" my conditioning affect while still maximizing the lightening affect, I would love that! If it is counter-productive, that's ok too - I can always do a separate deep condition...let me know what ya think!

p.s. I am currently trying another lightening with the exact measurements you recommended (it's quite drippy) :)
1/8 cup honey, 3/4 cup distilled water, 1 tablespoon cinnamon

p.p.s the hair does look crazy shiny! I think it may still have some oil in it that didn't soak in, yet... it's not always that shiny :)

[ktani]

The condition was fine, it was soft and shiny. I didn't feel like it was as intensely conditioned as the honey/conditioner mix, which I realize is NOT the best for lightening. So I'm wondering: would the lightening mix work if I substituted coconut milk for the distilled water? I'm all for multi-tasking and if I could "up" my conditioning affect while still maximizing the lightening affect, I would love that! If it is counter-productive, that's ok too - I can always do a separate deep condition...let me know what ya think!

p.s. I am currently trying another lightening with the exact measurements you recommended (it's quite drippy) :)
1/8 cup honey, 3/4 cup distilled water, 1 tablespoon cinnamon

p.p.s the hair does look crazy shiny! I think it may still have some oil in it that didn't soak in, yet... it's not always that shiny :)

wintersun99

I am glad to hear that the honey lightening recipe left your hair soft and shiny.

No, I do not recommend using coconut milk as a substitute for distilled water.

Coconut milk, canned, contains a small amount of Vitamin C but it also contains iron, both of which can deplete peroxide and there is not enough water in it to use it as a substitute.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3114/2

You would be much better off to use it separately, after honey lightening, as a conditioning treatment.

Your new recipe sounds perfect.

And whether or not it is partly from the mayo - "crazy shiny" sounds good to me.

[wintersun99]

good to know! guess I'll keep my two steps separate... that's probably better anyway, why mess with what works? :)

[ktani]

wintersun99

Both coconut cream and coconut milk were used previously in honey lightening.

I now know more about how Vitamin C and minerals can affect peroxide, as well the the importance of the correct dilution.

And I understand why the results using the old recipes were so very gradual.

The honey was not diluted well enough and the peroxide in the recipes was depleted from more than one source in some cases - the ingredients as well as the water used.

[ktani]

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination (especially .... metals such as copper, manganese or iron) ....
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

[ktani]

It is the coconut oil in the coconut milk and cream that has the peroxide value, and coconut oil contains no Vitamin C, and has no minerals in it except .1 mg of iron per cup.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/fats-and-oils/508/2

[ktani]

Just a reminder.

All updates and relevant information from this thread, are added to the recommendations post, linked in my signature below, either to the recommendations text or in the links provided.

[HalcyonDays]

Ooh, I think I'll try this! Either tomorrow or the day after. *Sorts through kitchen cupboard* I have Scottish Heather and Spanish Orange Blossom. Unless you guys recommend otherwise, I think I'll try the orange blossom first - the heather honey tastes nicer!

Am I allowed to post photos when I do it? I'm not sure I can while I'm still a newbie.
How much can you do this before it starts damaging your hair? How many shades lighter can you go, I mean. Because peroxide is never good for hair, but it sounds like honey really is. Is there a stage where the peroxide outweighs the honey? (if that makes any sense...)

[ktani]

Ooh, I think I'll try this! Either tomorrow or the day after. *Sorts through kitchen cupboard* I have Scottish Heather and Spanish Orange Blossom. Unless you guys recommend otherwise, I think I'll try the orange blossom first - the heather honey tastes nicer!

Am I allowed to post photos when I do it? I'm not sure I can while I'm still a newbie.
How much can you do this before it starts damaging your hair? How many shades lighter can you go, I mean. Because peroxide is never good for hair, but it sounds like honey really is. Is there a stage where the peroxide outweighs the honey? (if that makes any sense...)

HalcyonDays

Hi and welcome to LHC and Honey!

I cannot say what you can do about pictures but they are always welcome here.

Before you try anything, please read the link in my signature below. Just click on the link.

It should answer most of your questions, including how often you can honey lighten, which is however often you like, IMO.

That is covered in #14.

If you have any questions after that, please post - I always reply.

[HalcyonDays]

Oh yeah, I read that... then forgot... :doh:
Thanks lol

I'll let you know how it goes!

[ktani]

HalcyonDays

No worries.

I designed it to be a checklist.

It is also updated very frequently - as soon as possible after something new comes up.

So it is always good to read it over once in awhile, IMO.

It will keep you current with what is happening here, instead of you having to go through pages of posts, if I am not online to help out.

I keep records of where most things can be found.

I also made notes recently in #15, to help with the 4 to 1 dilution calculations.

I cannot predict how much lightening anyone can get from honey lightening.

I look forward to hearing from you.

[HalcyonDays]

Wow - I see how you earned the title of Honey Geek - you must be really dedicated :)

I suppose much of the peroxide level depends on what sort of flowers the bees visited does it? (lol that sounded much more twee than I anticipated). Are there any sort of honeys that are particularly high in it, do you know?

I'm quite excited - my hair is a dull sort of darkish mid-brown and I'd love it to be a slightly more blonde colour. I know it probably won't go that much lighter, but even just slightly lighter would be great.

[ktani]

Wow - I see how you earned the title of Honey Geek - you must be really dedicated :)

I suppose much of the peroxide level depends on what sort of flowers the bees visited does it? (lol that sounded much more twee than I anticipated). Are there any sort of honeys that are particularly high in it, do you know?

I'm quite excited - my hair is a dull sort of darkish mid-brown and I'd love it to be a slightly more blonde colour. I know it probably won't go that much lighter, but even just slightly lighter would be great.

HalcyonDays

Thank you - I am dedicated.

I chose the name Honey Geek, lol.

The peroxide level of a honey is determined by the plant source.

This is a breakdown from the recommendations post. It should be easier to follow.

Choosing a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Thank you for continuing to report on the condition of your hair.

I look forward to your next report.

What is your natural colour?
Your welcome.:)
I am not sure what the natural colour of my hair is I have been colouring my hair for years and will continue . I think I will just lighten this for a bit longer and then put a colour in it to cover the greys that are coming through.
I was reading through the posts further on and it doesn't seem that it is known how long someones hair will continue to lighten.
I wonder if someone with natural colour hair would lighten easier than someone like myself with henna and chemical colours in their hair?
In a way I wouldn't mind trying to get a lot lighter and then putting colours over as I do really like having a reddish look to my hair but have gotten sick of colouring my hair with henna. It does seem to be a slow process for myself unlike someone like Jan In ID who looked noticeably a different colour :shrug: I believe she was someone with natural coloured hair?

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Yes, Jan in ID's hair colour was virgin before honey lightening.

And yes - honey lightening can be a slower process over henna and colour-treated hair.

The reason no one can predict how light someone can go with honey lightening, is because you have to factor in the starting hair colour, plus whatever else is on it - henna, henndigo etc.

The new recipes, based on reports, are working much, much faster than any of the old ones.

But the dilution needs to be correct, the honey good, distilled water used - there are variables.

I just changed the recommendation to letting a recipe sit for 1 hour, before applying it to the hair, from it being an option, to the only recommended method.

I keep thinking of ways to improve the recipes and method for honey lightening.

The reports on results will tell just how far one can take honey lightening.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Yes, Jan in ID's hair colour was virgin before honey lightening.

And yes - honey lightening can be a slower process over henna and colour-treated hair.

The reason no one can predict how light someone can go with honey lightening, is because you have to factor in the starting hair colour, plus whatever else is on it - henna, henndigo etc.

The new recipes, based on reports, are working much, much faster than any of the old ones.

But the dilution needs to be correct, the honey good, distilled water used - there are variables.

I just changed the recommendation to letting a recipe sit for 1 hour, before applying it to the hair, from it being an option, to the only recommended method.

I keep thinking of ways to improve the recipes and method for honey lightening.

The reports on results will tell just how far one can take honey lightening.



Thanks for that. :) Gosh I think the last time I had virgin colour hair was over 20 years ago. :bigeyes:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

You are most welcome.

[ktani]

If the report on condition of the hair, is in a separate post from the reported results with pictures, I am now going to add it to the Pictures Post.

No one, in the 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, has reported damage; weak, thin, broken, split, or gummy hair, following honey lightening, even after multiple treatments, over long periods of time.

These signs of damage have been reported, after using conventional peroxide, in other threads.

[ktani]

A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266)- highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value.

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Distilled water. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. The new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html) is a conversion link. (For every 1 tablespoon of honey, use 6 tablespoons of distilled water.)

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

[HalcyonDays]

Wow - two silly questions in one evening - I had just read the list of honeys when I asked what honeys were good :doh: Sorry lol
I blame it on the fact that I was getting on for 40 hours without sleep so my brain had decided to go to sleep without me.

And now I have honey on my hair! :D I hope it works!!

[HalcyonDays]

PS - thanks for the new guidelines - much easier for my little mind to digest lol

[ktani]

Wow - two silly questions in one evening - I had just read the list of honeys when I asked what honeys were good :doh: Sorry lol
I blame it on the fact that I was getting on for 40 hours without sleep so my brain had decided to go to sleep without me.

And now I have honey on my hair! :D I hope it works!!

HalcyonDays

I do not think any questions are silly.

You helped me realize how densely packed the text is in the recommendations post.

I broke it down for those in a hurry or like you - who are tired after a long day, or in your case, without much sleep at all.

The details are in the recommendations post, because of the many questions I get, so I am keeping the extra information there, for those who want more of an explanation.

I look forward to your report on results.

[ktani]

PS - thanks for the new guidelines - much easier for my little mind to digest lol

HalcyonDays

You are most welcome.

[HalcyonDays]

So here are the results -

Before

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0236.jpg

______

After

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0256.jpg


Oh dear, I really need to tidy my room and clean my mirror...

But anyway, there does seem to be quite a difference. I got a bit of residue on the ends I think - hence the spikiness. But the colour is quite a bit lighter. Woohoo!! Success!

[ktani]

So here are the results -

Before

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0236.jpg

______

After

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0256.jpg


Oh dear, I really need to tidy my room and clean my mirror...

But anyway, there does seem to be quite a difference. I got a bit of residue on the ends I think - hence the spikiness. But the colour is quite a bit lighter. Woohoo!! Success!

HalcyonDays

Thank you for the pictures.

I am glad that you are so plesed with the results.

It appears to be a huge difference in colour.

Unfortunately, the before picture is really dark.

It is hard fo me to really see the difference in colour clearly.

I do believe you but you are in shadow, or it is just the lighting?

Picture lighting is tricky.

Do you have any recent pictures of your hair in better lighting?

If you do have residue, shampooing will remove that.

A vinegar rinse should help too.

Please give me the details of your recipe, the honey you used, and the method, to share with others.

And how is the condition of your hair, aside from the residue?

[HalcyonDays]

Yes, I think the lighting was a little bit darker on the first picture, but not so much as it appears. I'm standing pretty much right underneath a lightbulb in both.

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0243.jpg
That's another photo, I'm afraid they're the best I've got. All the others (when I'm not standing virtually underneath a lightbulb) are much darker.

I used Waitrose Wild Flower honey, and just mixed it 1:4 with tap water (I didn't have any distilled water). I kept it on for 2 hours instead of 1 because I forgot about it while I was watching a film.

My hair is a little softer than usual but there's not really any other change in condition.

[ktani]

Yes, I think the lighting was a little bit darker on the first picture, but not so much as it appears. I'm standing pretty much right underneath a lightbulb in both.

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0243.jpg
That's another photo, I'm afraid they're the best I've got. All the others (when I'm not standing virtually underneath a lightbulb) are much darker.

I used Waitrose Wild Flower honey, and just mixed it 1:4 with tap water (I didn't have any distilled water). I kept it on for 2 hours instead of 1 because I forgot about it while I was watching a film.

My hair is a little softer than usual but there's not really any other change in condition.

HalcyonDays

You definitely got lightening IMO.

I am glad to hear that your hair is soft in spite of the residue.

Thank you for the 3rd picture and the recipe and honey details.

Tap water has been reported to work.

Distilled water works better IMO.

You can use your after picture for future honey lightening results.

Thank you for taking the time to picture hunt.

[HalcyonDays]

That's ok, I'm sorry the pictures aren't better lit. Hopefully I'll get better at that with practice (or possibly a better camera for my birthday!)
Thanks for all the info on the honey! :)

[ktani]

HalcyonDays

No worries.

You did the best you could.

Picture lighting can, as I said, be tricky.

One more question, please.

Where do you live?

I do not need an exact location - I want to add your honey to the Successful Honeys List - I just need a country.

[HalcyonDays]

Sure, I'm in the UK - England.

[ktani]

HalcyonDays

Thank you.

I am adding all 3 pictures to the Pictures Post.

I know that you said that your hair is mid-brown - is it virgin - uncolour-treated hair?

Sorry, I forgot to ask.

[HalcyonDays]

Yep - I've never done anything to it before.

[ktani]

HalcyonDays

Thank you - again.

You pictures have now been added to the Pictures Post and your honey to the Successful Honeys List.

The Pictures Post
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

[ktani]

HalcyonDays

I keep looking at all of your pictures.

You hair is not dark mid-brown anymore.

It looks golden blonde to me regardless of your before picture lighting.

It was a just shock to see so much of a colour change after 1 treatment!

My apologies - what I should have said before was WOW!

[LadyPolaris]

ktani

I have my 4th honey+cinnamon (yep, still cinnamon!) on my head right now. :) I altered my last recipe a bit according to the flaws I had noticed:


- 1 part dark honey from a mixed source
(same as my 3rd treatment)

- 4 parts distilled water at room temperature
(this time I measured 4 parts according to the weight of 1 part honey, not according to the volume as I had been doing - so it's a bit more water than the previous times)

- 1 tbsp ground cinnamon
(I used 2 tbsp before, but it was getting hard to rinse out - let's try 1 tbsp instead)

- 1/2 tbsp EVOO
(1 tbsp was way too much!)


I let this mix sit for 1 hour, and then applied it to damp, freshly shampooed hair (diluted SLS shampoo).

I plan on leaving it in for 1:30 h and then I'll do a full CO wash to rinse it out.

I'll let you know of my results as soon as my hair is dry, or tomorrow - and I'll take a pic as usual. :)

[ktani]

LadyPolaris

It sounds perfect to me.

I look forward to the results and pictures.

One favour please.

Copy and paste this recipe into your results post with pictures and please also include the results on the condition of your hair - for the Pictures Post.

[LadyPolaris]

Will do, ktani! I'm so thrilled with these treatments. I have been glancing at my hair in the mirror and involuntarily surprising myself about how much lighter it looks. I look at my reflection and for a second I'm like 'whoa! Wasn't my hair darker than this?' - these spontaneous thoughts are all the proof I need that I'm definitely not seeing things. :)

[ktani]

Will do, ktani! I'm so thrilled with these treatments. I have been glancing at my hair in the mirror and involuntarily surprising myself about how much lighter it looks. I look at my reflection and for a second I'm like 'whoa! Wasn't my hair darker than this?' - these spontaneous thoughts are all the proof I need that I'm definitely not seeing things. :)

LadyPolaris

I am thrilled that you are thrilled.

I think the corrected dilution has a lot to do with results getting even better but the old 4 to 1 dilution was pretty good, IMO.

I cannot wait to hear all of the details and see what you are seeing!

[ktani]

So here are the results -

Before

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0236.jpg

______

After

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0256.jpg


Oh dear, I really need to tidy my room and clean my mirror...

But anyway, there does seem to be quite a difference. I got a bit of residue on the ends I think - hence the spikiness. But the colour is quite a bit lighter. Woohoo!! Success!

HalcyonDays

I am over the shock of seeing so much of a colour change after only 1 honey lightening treatment.

While I still recommend distilled over tap water, your results are amazing and deserve an encore.

[ktani]

Yes, I think the lighting was a little bit darker on the first picture, but not so much as it appears. I'm standing pretty much right underneath a lightbulb in both.

http://i320.photobucket.com/albums/nn323/HalcyonDays_photos/DSCN0243.jpg
That's another photo, I'm afraid they're the best I've got. All the others (when I'm not standing virtually underneath a lightbulb) are much darker.

I used Waitrose Wild Flower honey, and just mixed it 1:4 with tap water (I didn't have any distilled water). I kept it on for 2 hours instead of 1 because I forgot about it while I was watching a film.

My hair is a little softer than usual but there's not really any other change in condition.

HalcyonDays

An encore of your replacement before picture, which you very generously hunted down for me.

[ktani]

Honey lightening has not been reported in any of the Honey threads, including this one, to cause; weak, thin, gummy, broken or split hair - damage that has been reported, in other threads, to be caused by conventional peroxide.

With the new recommendations, honey lightening has been reported to be much less gradual than it ever was reported to be before - and still, there has been no damage reported, to date.

Some recent reports in the Pictures Post #15, in my signature link.

kokyryu - on virgin, middle blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

Jan in ID - on virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with the old 4 to1 dilution, ground cinnamon and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119360&postcount=867

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the correct 4 to 1 dilution by weight, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Alley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value"
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

[LadyPolaris]

Results of my 4th honey lightening treatment:

I modified the recipe from my 3rd treatment a bit, and I like it better now (less oil and less cinnamon to rinse away, plus the correct dilution):


- 1 part dark honey from a mixed source
(same as my 3rd treatment)

- 4 parts distilled water at room temperature
(this time I measured 4 parts according to the weight of 1 part honey, not according to the volume as I had been doing - so it's a bit more water than the previous times)

- 1 tbsp ground cinnamon
(I used 2 tbsp before, but it was getting hard to rinse out - let's try 1 tbsp instead)

- 1/2 tbsp EVOO
(1 tbsp was way too much!)


I let this mix sit for 1 hour, and then applied it to damp, freshly shampooed hair (diluted SLS shampoo). Left it in for 2 hours, then hopped in the shower, rinsed it well with water and then did a full CO wash to wash it all out. The cinnamon and the EVOO rinsed out without any problems (much better than the last time).

My hair feels very soft after the treatment. It's also shinier than before - this always happens right after I do honey treatments! No damage as far as I can perceive - no crunchy, gummy, split, or broken hair.

This time it seems that the lightening was less 'sectioned' than the last time (I had noticed more lightening on the hennaed parts and on finer hairs). It looks like my virgin hair is starting to catch up as well - it has a lighter reflection in direct light now. It appears the burgundy tone from henna has been totally lifted and my hair is now lightening gradually as a whole. It was a medium-dark burgundy-brown when I first started with the treatments; now it's a medium warm auburn.

I took this pic an hour ago:


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/e5383fbc.jpg


What do you think?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For ease of comparison, here is my progress from the 1st treatment to this one (4th) in pictures:


#1 - old mix with conditioner and chamomile tea from filtered water
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/4da56c3f.jpg


#2 - mix with chamomile tea from filtered water
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/5c071ad1.jpg


#3 (flash picture, sorry - had really BAD lighting that day) - mix with distilled water
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/7e21da0e.jpg


and #4 (this is the correct dilution - 1:4 considering the weight of honey and not the volume) - mix with distilled water
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/e5383fbc.jpg


The condition of my hair after a honey lightening treatment has, so far, always turned out better than it was before. My hair is usually softer and always shinier afterwards. I haven't noticed any brittle, dry, split, broken or gummy hair since I started with the treatments.

Any difference on the visual texture of my hair between pictures are either due to residue (I had a little bit of residue on treatments #1 and #2) or due to hairstyle (bun waves on #3 and #4). No tactile difference, though.

I think the pictures are clear in regards to the gradual lightening of my hair from a medium/dark burgundy-brown tone to a medium warm auburn.

The last recipe I used (listed earlier in this post) is the one that worked the best for me so far.

[ktani]

I posted this in another thread so I thought that I would share it here too.

The damage sunlight can do to hair.

"reported by the International Journal of Cosmetic Science (2007 29. 143-146) ....
hair quality changed .... great extent after the extended exposure to .... harsh and hot sun: the hair fibers became thinner and the cuticle scales fused together .... hair became extremely brittle .... multiple radial cracks and fractures .... observed."
http://www.healthoma.com/hair-and-skin-care-solutions-for-summers/

It is interesting to me, that some of the results reported, following overexposure to the sun, are similar to some of the reported results, of conventional peroxide damage.

I also found this on the effects of bleaching on the hair.

"Damage to Human Hair Caused by Repeated Bleaching Combined with Daily Weathering during Daily Life Activities
Although a single bleaching had no effect, repeated bleaching combined with daily weathering …. significant decreases in …. lipids and alterations in amino acids …. characteristic for the cuticle. Conclusion: Hair damage, eventually leading to the worst damage such as splitting, is caused by bleaching during daily life activities …."
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowAbstract&ArtikelNr=91908&Ausgabe=231745&ProduktNr=227090

No such results have ever been reported following honey lightening.

[ktani]

LadyPolaris

Thank you so much for putting all of your picture results together, so I can see the progression of you lightening all at once.

And thank you for the detail on the condition of you hair after 4 honey lightening treatments.

I see what you mean about "hi-lights" - parts of your hair are definitely lighter than others, IMO.

You hair is red - I see no more brown or burgundy.

I am glad to read that the condition of your hair is so good.

That is consistent with all other reports following multiple honey lightening treatments, as well as single reports of results, aside from reports on the dryness that can result from honey residue.

[ktani]

My observations on honey lightening results, after starting and monitoring 5 honey threads all together, this being the only active one and the 5th.

Honey lightening has been reported to be much faster and better with the new recommendations.

The era of long treatment hours and endless treatments to get results, based on reports, is gone.

Lightening hennaed hair is always a challenge, IMO.

However, the 4 to 1 dilution has been reported to lighten hennaed and henndigoed hair, very well and relatively quickly.

The difference in results has to have the number of henna layers on the hair factored into it, IMO.

The more henna layers there are on the hair, the harder the honey lightening recipe has to work and more treatments will no doubt be necessary.

But with the new recommendations and the 4 to 1 dilution, now corrected, the number of honey lightening treatments required to get to the desired lightened tone, IMO, will be a fraction of the number of treatments that were required with previous dilutions and recipes, again based on the results reported.

[wintersun99]

LadyPolaris...

I see what you mean about "hi-lights" - parts of your hair are definitely lighter than others, IMO.

You hair is red - I see no more brown or burgundy.

Me too! very pretty... :)

[ktani]

wintersun99

Didn't you have another treatment on your hair recently?

How did that go?

[wintersun99]

Yep! there hasn't been color change since the pictures I posted (just the other day) at least, not that I can tell. I do these treatments often (like every other day) because of the shine it gives me and any lightening is a bonus! I'll post another picture in a month or so... by then, maybe we can see more color change when compared to the pix. on file. :)

[ktani]

wintersun99

Maybe your recipe need tweaking.

Check out the shortened version of the recommendations.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628

[ktani]

I went through my post records.

GlennaGirl on the number of honey lightening treatments she has done and the difference the 4 to 1 dilution made
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112157&postcount=673

GlennaGirl on the condition of her hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl on the colour change
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112238&postcount=678

15 or so treatments, various recipes and dilutions, a better result reported with the 4 to 1 dilution after only 1 treatment with it, and the condition of her hair is good.

GlennGirl's signature picture is the result of her lightening the final henndigo that remained on her hair - mid length, her roots and ends were red and then hennaing over the lightened colour. This was taken after the first 4 to 1 dilution treatment.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

[wintersun99]

Ktani - I just reviewed the updated recommendations and I'm thinking that I may change my honey. I am continuing (even today) to use the Nature's store brand honey. I like it, but it is worth trying something different to see if I get a boost. That will be the next experiment, perhaps this weekend...

[ktani]

wintersun99

I think that may be a good idea.

Although your last results were exellent, IMO.

Many times peple are unsure of a colour change or how much of one there is until they take a picture - even if it is just for themselves, not to post.

[ktani]

I have always monitored Honey thread results.

With this thread though, for the first time, I started keeping post records.

I had decided not to separate this thread, or start another Honey thread as a companion to this one.

It is easier for me to have things centralized.

That is why I wrote the recommendations posts and previously did recaps.

I do not leave it to chance that someone will mention the condition of their hair following honey lightening, I ask about it.

That is how I know how honey lightening affects the hair or does not.

I have gone back to the previous Honey threads, as well to check on posts.

I do not leave things to my memory anymore - there have been too many posts for me to recall accurately.

Thankfully, there is the archive.

But for this thread, I have recorded most results reports, and can always go back and check on things I did not record.

[squiggyflop]

just slimed my head up with another honey treatment.. ill report back..
todays mix= 4:1 dilution and a bit too much cinnamon.. its sort of burning my forehead like a wrapper from big red.. anyone ever lick a big red gum wrapper and stick it to your forehead.. at first you dont feel anything but then it hurts.. we used to have contests when i was a kid for who would leave it on the longest..

[ktani]

squiggy

I have no come back for that.

I hope that you are ok.

I have cautioned about using too much spice.

With the 4 to 1 dilution, especially the corrected version, less spice works just as well and with distilled water, the results have been reported to be even better with less spice.

Good luck!

Please let me know all of the details when you post; the exact recipe, measurements, method - it is recommended that a recipe be left to sit for 1 hour before applying it, and most important in your case - the condition of your hair following the treatment.

[wintersun99]

so, I have been doing honey treatments forever, it seems. I originally started with honey+conditioner and have since moved to the current recommendation of 4:1 honey/liquid. I have nearly matched my color and can stop obsessing about my hair being too dark (from a botched 2-step henna+indigo application that turned my hair nearly black!) :)

[ktani]

wintersun99

I only give my honest opinion and I did not take you the wrong way, lol.

Stop obsessing. IMO, you are well on your way back to the colour you want.

[wintersun99]

ha ha, I guess I just needed to see it objectively :toast:

[ktani]

wintersun99

It is a truism, IMO.

We are our own wost critics, lol.

But seriously, it is very hard sometimes to assess our own hair colour.

I have had a similar problem assessing catnip coverage of my grey/white at times, asking others what they think and assessing the colour of it at other times.

It happens to us all, again, IMO.

[squiggyflop]

squiggy

I have no come back for that.

I hope that you are ok.

I have cautioned about using too much spice.

With the 4 to 1 dilution, especially the corrected version, less spice works just as well and with distilled water, the results have been reported to be even better with less spice.

Good luck!

Please let me know all of the details when you post; the exact recipe, measurements, method - it is recommended that a recipe be left to sit for 1 hour before applying it, and most important in your case - the condition of your hair following the treatment.
yeah im fine the honey is still on my head i plan to wash it out in a while.. it stopped hurting a while ago (big red and regular cinnamon only stings me for 15 minutes or less usually) though ive got a puffy red area where it touched me..

one cup distilled water and .25 cup honey.. i applyed it right after it was mixed i guess i misread..
the excess cinnamon was an accident from my doggy distracting me when i was adding it.. he is so cute when he wiggles..

i applyed it with a squirt bottle out of sheer lazyness.. im off to go watch the rest of the episode of smallville ive got in the dvd player..

ill check back later

[squiggyflop]

ok so i washed my hair and it was.. you guessed it.. MUSHY.. like washing warm bread dough.. the dreaded buildup is back.. so i washed it first with regular shampoo.. then with dandruff shampoo and then with my last bit of baby shampoo.. im not breaking out the microscope though because im tired and lazy.. i shed a massive amount of hair.. most of it lost during the first shampoo.. maybe 200 hairs.. but i havent washed in a few days or even gotten my hair wet.. plus ive been wearing my hair up every day and not really detangling (or even taking it down for more than a minute).. so that probably contributed to the shedding..
ill report back probably tomorrow if my doctors appointment goes well.. not sure if ill post a picture.. i cant find my camera charger..

[LadyPolaris]

LadyPolaris

Thank you so much for putting all of your picture results together, so I can see the progression of you lightening all at once.

And thank you for the detail on the condition of you hair after 4 honey lightening treatments.

I see what you mean about "hi-lights" - parts of your hair are definitely lighter than others, IMO.

You hair is red - I see no more brown or burgundy.

I am glad to read that the condition of your hair is so good.

That is consistent with all other reports following multiple honey lightening treatments, as well as single reports of results, aside from reports on the dryness that can result from honey residue.


You're very welcome. It was nothing at all compared to the compilations you put together every day for this thread, though. :)

I'm so glad you have also noticed the highlights - it was one of the first comments my husband made, he said that the treatments were giving me subtle highlights. The more highlights the better, my henna glosses will look so nice over them! :inlove: (or so I hope!)



Me too! very pretty... :)

How kind of you! Thank you so much! :o

And, I definitely think your hair color is getting very close to the one you had on your before picture - it's almost there!



ok so i washed my hair and it was.. you guessed it.. MUSHY.. like washing warm bread dough.. the dreaded buildup is back.. so i washed it first with regular shampoo.. then with dandruff shampoo and then with my last bit of baby shampoo.. im not breaking out the microscope though because im tired and lazy.. i shed a massive amount of hair.. most of it lost during the first shampoo.. maybe 200 hairs.. but i havent washed in a few days or even gotten my hair wet.. plus ive been wearing my hair up every day and not really detangling (or even taking it down for more than a minute).. so that probably contributed to the shedding..
ill report back probably tomorrow if my doctors appointment goes well.. not sure if ill post a picture.. i cant find my camera charger..

Squiggyflop, pardon my butting in, but I thought I should say that I had a similar problem (not mushy hair, but massive shedding) when I went too heavy handed on the cinnamon. That's why I brought it down to 1 tbsp on my newest recipe, it was giving me too much trouble! Maybe you could try ground cardamom instead - I'd totally do it if only I had access to it. (It seems I'll have to buy a grinder only to grind cardamom seeds - can you believe the internet place that carries ground cardamom is one state away and won't ship to mine?! Unbelievable!)

Anyway! :) Perhaps you could try lowering the amount of cinnamon, or using cardamom instead. Cinnamon is terrible to rinse away.

[Loreyanne_H]

Hi Ktani...and hallo to every honey experimenter. i've on my head my second try of the mixture "let the honey mix with water to make your hair lighter"...I followed the new instructions - maybe I've put a little less water as I had already wet hair.

I put in the mixture my usual grocery cinnaon powder but in less quantity this time, just to make a try. Last time, i had put 2 teaspoons of cinnamon and everything rinsed out perfectly...my hair is marvellous in this sense, even with the mos awful powder it get rinsed perfectly with five minute shower.

I have a question: does the water matter? Of course yes, in the sense that waters can be really different...I'm referring to temperature water. Would it be better for the honey to use hot, boiling, cold, icy or mild water?

[squiggyflop]

Squiggyflop, pardon my butting in, but I thought I should say that I had a similar problem (not mushy hair, but massive shedding) when I went too heavy handed on the cinnamon. That's why I brought it down to 1 tbsp on my newest recipe, it was giving me too much trouble! Maybe you could try ground cardamom instead - I'd totally do it if only I had access to it. (It seems I'll have to buy a grinder only to grind cardamom seeds - can you believe the internet place that carries ground cardamom is one state away and won't ship to mine?! Unbelievable!)

Anyway! :) Perhaps you could try lowering the amount of cinnamon, or using cardamom instead. Cinnamon is terrible to rinse away.
cardamom isnt something i can get i think.. its just too rare and expensive.. 10$ for a small shaker is ridiculous..
and yeah the cinnamon didnt rinse out all the way.. i kept having to shake out my pillow because i kept getting a coating of the the little grits.. it felt like sand.. gross..

eta: my hair is tangly and doesnt appear to be lighter.. i left it on for 2.5 hours..

[Celebrian]

Two treatments applied on consecutive days.

These were applied to hair which had had multiple henna's/henindigo's/PPD dyes/bleaching - you name it.

Current color comprises about two inches of roots = henna and PPD dyes. Color = auburn brown (1/4 inch of new grey roots had vividly picked the most recent bright red PPD dye!)

Next 6 inches or so = an area which had had hendigo followed by bleach to lift the darkness (read about that one elsewhere!) leading to dark greeny-blue, and covered with further henna's and PPD dyes.

Ears to BSL = lighter red (henna and PPD dyes) strands mixed with greeny-blue darker ones.

So, roughly three sections.

Aim? To lift excess PPD dyes, indigo and henna - with a view to 'clearing the ground' for a new stage of coloring. Probably an 'all over ' hendigo with different ratio's than before.

Tap water was used. I have been given to understand that the water around here is not very acidic, so in the absence of distilled - I 'made do'.

First night = one part Sainsbury's Basics Honey to 4 parts tap water, stirred well and left to stand 1 hour.

Applied to clean but coconut oiled hair, dampened down a bit. Saran wrapped and left 1 hour. Shampooed out, conditioned and lightly re-oiled. Condition? Fine. Color? Possibly slight lightening of the darkest midlengths. A greater lightening or lifting of the red (PPD dyed) two inches of roots, and of course the lighter hair ends.

Second night = same recipe and method as above.

This time, I shampooed my hair and towel dried it first. Applied mix, wrapped in saran, waited just over 1 hour. Shampooed out, conditioned etc. Hair wilder and drier than the previous night! - but that is normal for me if I shampoo too frequently. Otherwise, condition good and hair strong.

Color? A little more lifting of red roots and ends, and enough of a lift in the dark mid-section for me to get confused when I was seeking out a particularly dark and juicy strand for another experiment I'm running on the side. That is to say, I realised that there must have been some kind of slight blending of demarcation line between roots and mid-section, and the latter section has 'softened' in color a bit more.

Sorry no pics.

However, I am sufficiently impressed to plan on doing further treatments this week - and hope to be able to pick up some distilled water tomorrow.

Stay tuned! :cheese:

[Celebrian]

Ktani, where are you?

I can't get distilled water but managed to get deionised water instead. This is what wikipedia says:

Deionized water which is also known as demineralized water (DI water or de-ionized water; also spelled deionised water, see spelling differences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_differences)) is water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water) that has had its minerals removed, such as cations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cation) from sodium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium), calcium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium), iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron), copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper) and anions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anion) such as chloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloride) and bromide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromide). Deionization is a physical process which uses specially-manufactured ion exchange resins which bind to and filter out the mineral salts from water. Because the majority of water impurities are dissolved salts, deionization produces a high purity water that is generally similar to distilled water quickly and without scale buildup. However, deionization does not significantly remove uncharged organic molecules, viruses or bacteria, except through "accidental" trapping by the resin. Specially made strong base anion resins can remove Gram-negative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram-negative) bacteria. Deionization can be done continuously using Electrodeionization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodeionization).
It should be noted that removal of all ions from water is next to impossible, since water self-ionizes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water) quickly to reach equilibrium.

Also, I found this interesting:

The theoretical pH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH) of highly purifed water is 7.0. In practice, however, most purified water will have a pH that is slightly acidic (less than 7.0) due to the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide) (CO2) from the atmosphere. Dissolved carbon dioxide reacts slowly with water to give the bicarbonate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicarbonate) and hydronium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium) ions.
CO2 (g) + 2H2O(l) ⇋ HCO3- + H3O+ Note that carbonic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid), H2CO3, is only formed in strongly acid solutions. Distillation temporarily removes dissolved CO2 from the water. However, during condensation the water reabsorbs CO2 again resulting in a pH that is slightly less than 7.0.

So, tonight I'll be using this deionised stuff. Back later...

[Alley Cat]

I continue to lighten my hair generally twice a week using the jarrah honey. I think my hair is slowly lightening. I hennaed my hair for 2 years so it darkened a lot and the chemical colour I put on was quite dark , a lot of the darkness is lifting and the red is coming back into my hair. I don't want to lose the red as I like my hair red. I am not sure how long I will continue with this but will continue for now. I also need to put a colour in for my roots soon so may just try hold out until the end of the month and reassess things then. :)

[ktani]

Hi everyone!

It will take me a while to catch up but I will respond to all posts and pms.

The hard drive in my laptop needed replacing.

Thankfully, I had bought a Best Buy extended warranty.

For those who live in Toronto (I am not sure of their immediate range) PC Mechanix, is an authorized Best Buy Service depot.
Best Buy recommended them to me as they are not too far from where I live, but the quality of the service and competence is exemplary, IMO.
647-297-7772 info@pcmechanix.ca

www.pcmechanix.ca (http://www.pcmechanix.ca)

They pick up and deliver. Superlative customer service.

My computer failed Monday night. I got it back in perfect working order, before noon today.

Every situation is different but I did not lose any files. They were able in my case, to recover everything.

Repair times and file recovery will vary with each indivdual's circumstances.

I also bougt a few extras from them - better anti-virus software than the free version I had and a flash storage device with which to back-up my files in the future. Their prices are very reasonable, IMO.

I am thrilled that it all turned out well.

[ktani]

yeah im fine the honey is still on my head i plan to wash it out in a while.. it stopped hurting a while ago (big red and regular cinnamon only stings me for 15 minutes or less usually) though ive got a puffy red area where it touched me..

one cup distilled water and .25 cup honey.. i applyed it right after it was mixed i guess i misread..
the excess cinnamon was an accident from my doggy distracting me when i was adding it.. he is so cute when he wiggles..

i applyed it with a squirt bottle out of sheer lazyness.. im off to go watch the rest of the episode of smallville ive got in the dvd player..

ill check back later

squiggy

Thank you for posting the recipe.

The correct dilution for a 1/4 cup of honey is 1 1/2 cups distilled water.

I am so glad to hear that you are recovering quickly.

Cinnamon irritation has not been reported to have lasting effects.

[ktani]

ok so i washed my hair and it was.. you guessed it.. MUSHY.. like washing warm bread dough.. the dreaded buildup is back.. so i washed it first with regular shampoo.. then with dandruff shampoo and then with my last bit of baby shampoo.. im not breaking out the microscope though because im tired and lazy.. i shed a massive amount of hair.. most of it lost during the first shampoo.. maybe 200 hairs.. but i havent washed in a few days or even gotten my hair wet.. plus ive been wearing my hair up every day and not really detangling (or even taking it down for more than a minute).. so that probably contributed to the shedding..
ill report back probably tomorrow if my doctors appointment goes well.. not sure if ill post a picture.. i cant find my camera charger..

squiggy

At this point, I strongly suggest replacing your honey with one from the Successful Honeys List and storing it in a cool, dark cupboard.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

I look forward to your results.

Please update on the condition of your hair.

[ktani]

cardamom isnt something i can get i think.. its just too rare and expensive.. 10$ for a small shaker is ridiculous..
and yeah the cinnamon didnt rinse out all the way.. i kept having to shake out my pillow because i kept getting a coating of the the little grits.. it felt like sand.. gross..

eta: my hair is tangly and doesnt appear to be lighter.. i left it on for 2.5 hours..

squiggy

I would just try a new honey with the corrected dilution and skp the spice for your next treatment.

I think that your current honey is the problem.

[ktani]

Hi Ktani...and hallo to every honey experimenter. i've on my head my second try of the mixture "let the honey mix with water to make your hair lighter"...I followed the new instructions - maybe I've put a little less water as I had already wet hair.

I put in the mixture my usual grocery cinnaon powder but in less quantity this time, just to make a try. Last time, i had put 2 teaspoons of cinnamon and everything rinsed out perfectly...my hair is marvellous in this sense, even with the mos awful powder it get rinsed perfectly with five minute shower.

I have a question: does the water matter? Of course yes, in the sense that waters can be really different...I'm referring to temperature water. Would it be better for the honey to use hot, boiling, cold, icy or mild water?

Loreyanne_H

Thank you for posting your recipe.

If I am reading you right, the condition of your hair following honey lightening is good.

Distilled water is the only water I recommend for honey lightening.

And yes, the temperature of the water is very important.

It should be room temperature only.

[LadyPolaris]

Hi everyone!

It will take me a while to catch up but I will respond to all posts and pms.

The hard drive in my laptop needed replacing.

Thankfully, I had bougt a Best Buy extended warranty.

For those who live in Toronto (I am not sure of their imediate range) PC Mechanix, is an authorized Best Buy Service depot.
Best Buy recommended them to me as they are not to far from where I live, but the quality of the service and competence is exemplary, IMO.
647-297-7772 info@pcmachanix.ca (info@pcmachanix.ca)

They pick up and deliver. Superlative customer service.

My computer failed Monday night. I got it back in perfect working order, before noon today.

Every situation is different but I did not lose any files. They were able in my case, to recover everything.

Repair times and file recovery will vary with each indivdual's circumstances.

I also bougt a few extras from them - better anti-virus software than the free version I had and a flash storage device with which to back-up my files in the future. Their prices are very reasonable, IMO.

I am thrilled that it all turned out well.

We missed you!

Glad to know everything is okay and your data was fully recovered. :)

Welcome back!!

[ktani]

Ktani, where are you?

I can't get distilled water but managed to get deionised water instead. This is what wikipedia says:

Deionized water which is also known as demineralized water (DI water or de-ionized water; also spelled deionised water, see spelling differences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelling_differences)) is water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water) that has had its minerals removed, such as cations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cation) from sodium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium), calcium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium), iron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron), copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper) and anions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anion) such as chloride (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloride) and bromide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bromide). Deionization is a physical process which uses specially-manufactured ion exchange resins which bind to and filter out the mineral salts from water. Because the majority of water impurities are dissolved salts, deionization produces a high purity water that is generally similar to distilled water quickly and without scale buildup. However, deionization does not significantly remove uncharged organic molecules, viruses or bacteria, except through "accidental" trapping by the resin. Specially made strong base anion resins can remove Gram-negative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram-negative) bacteria. Deionization can be done continuously using Electrodeionization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrodeionization).
It should be noted that removal of all ions from water is next to impossible, since water self-ionizes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-ionization_of_water) quickly to reach equilibrium.

Also, I found this interesting:

The theoretical pH (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH) of highly purifed water is 7.0. In practice, however, most purified water will have a pH that is slightly acidic (less than 7.0) due to the presence of dissolved carbon dioxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide) (CO2) from the atmosphere. Dissolved carbon dioxide reacts slowly with water to give the bicarbonate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicarbonate) and hydronium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydronium) ions.
CO2 (g) + 2H2O(l) ⇋ HCO3- + H3O+ Note that carbonic acid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonic_acid), H2CO3, is only formed in strongly acid solutions. Distillation temporarily removes dissolved CO2 from the water. However, during condensation the water reabsorbs CO2 again resulting in a pH that is slightly less than 7.0.

So, tonight I'll be using this deionised stuff. Back later...

Celebrian

I have been without computer access until today.

My computer crashed - the hard drive was defective.

Thank you for the information on deionized water - I has included a post on purified waters here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water

I think that the deionized water should be fine.

It is not about the water pH, although that matters to some extent too, IMO.

It is about the lack of minerals.

Hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain metals, iron, copper and manganese.

[ktani]

We missed you!

Glad to know everything is okay and your data was fully recovered. :)

Welcome back!!

LadyPolaris

Thank you.

I missed all of you too.

[squiggyflop]

did the correct dilution change from 4:1? because 4*.25 cups is one cup and i even checked out one of my old math books.. if its still 4:1 then the correct really is one cup water and .25 cups honey..

perhaps 4:1 isnt the right amount anymore? or did you miscalculate?

i did use one of the honeys on the list (the one in a bear shape) it could be that i cant see the change myself.. maybe others would notice more..

[ktani]

did the correct dilution change from 4:1? because 4*.25 cups is one cup and i even checked out one of my old math books.. if its still 4:1 then the correct really is one cup water and .25 cups honey..

perhaps 4:1 isnt the right amount anymore? or did you miscalculate?

i did use one of the honeys on the list (the one in a bear shape) it could be that i cant see the change myself.. maybe others would notice more..

squiggy

The 4 to 1 dilution is still the recommended dilution but it is based on weight. Honey is heavier than water.

When I applied the research information to honey lightening initially, I missed that. I have since corrected it.

I updated the recommendations post in my signature, posted about it, included it in the shortened version of the reommendations, and also included the information in the Pictures Post.

Shortened recommendations.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628

Pictures Post text

"The correct 4 to 1 dilution is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight. This can be converted to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. Honey is heavier than water. Distilled water is now the only water recommended for honey lightening. Its absence of minerals helps ensure the best results.

It is now also recommended, that you mix a honey lightening recipe at room temperature, and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value, before applying the treatment to your hair.

If you wish to add cassia to a treatment, mix it only with some room temperature distilled water, until it is a paste. Then add it to a recipe, only just before you apply the treatment to your hair, to avoid dye release, and heat destroying the recipe peroxide. Body heat does not affect peroxide but other heat can deplete it.

1 gram = 1 ml. E.g. 30 ml of honey would need 120 ml of distilled water.

1/8 cup honey Metric = 2.12 tablespoons. You would need 8.48 tablespoons distilled water or 180 ml.

1/8 cup honey US = 1.5 oz. You would need 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup.

1/4 cup honey US = 3 oz. You would need 12 oz distilled water or 1/1/2 cups."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

It would be easy to miss, though if you had not checked those posts out.

I do not know why you are continuing to get that build-up problem.

It might well be a combination of the honey residue and your shampoo and conditioner.

[ktani]

Two treatments applied on consecutive days.

These were applied to hair which had had multiple henna's/henindigo's/PPD dyes/bleaching - you name it.

Current color comprises about two inches of roots = henna and PPD dyes. Color = auburn brown (1/4 inch of new grey roots had vividly picked the most recent bright red PPD dye!)

Next 6 inches or so = an area which had had hendigo followed by bleach to lift the darkness (read about that one elsewhere!) leading to dark greeny-blue, and covered with further henna's and PPD dyes.

Ears to BSL = lighter red (henna and PPD dyes) strands mixed with greeny-blue darker ones.

So, roughly three sections.

Aim? To lift excess PPD dyes, indigo and henna - with a view to 'clearing the ground' for a new stage of coloring. Probably an 'all over ' hendigo with different ratio's than before.

Tap water was used. I have been given to understand that the water around here is not very acidic, so in the absence of distilled - I 'made do'.

First night = one part Sainsbury's Basics Honey to 4 parts tap water, stirred well and left to stand 1 hour.

Applied to clean but coconut oiled hair, dampened down a bit. Saran wrapped and left 1 hour. Shampooed out, conditioned and lightly re-oiled. Condition? Fine. Color? Possibly slight lightening of the darkest midlengths. A greater lightening or lifting of the red (PPD dyed) two inches of roots, and of course the lighter hair ends.

Second night = same recipe and method as above.

This time, I shampooed my hair and towel dried it first. Applied mix, wrapped in saran, waited just over 1 hour. Shampooed out, conditioned etc. Hair wilder and drier than the previous night! - but that is normal for me if I shampoo too frequently. Otherwise, condition good and hair strong.

Color? A little more lifting of red roots and ends, and enough of a lift in the dark mid-section for me to get confused when I was seeking out a particularly dark and juicy strand for another experiment I'm running on the side. That is to say, I realised that there must have been some kind of slight blending of demarcation line between roots and mid-section, and the latter section has 'softened' in color a bit more.

Sorry no pics.

However, I am sufficiently impressed to plan on doing further treatments this week - and hope to be able to pick up some distilled water tomorrow.

Stay tuned! :cheese:

Celebrian

I am very happy to read that you are getting results.

Please give me your exact recipe measurements and please include how the condition of your hair is following honey lightening.

[ktani]

I continue to lighten my hair generally twice a week using the jarrah honey. I think my hair is slowly lightening. I hennaed my hair for 2 years so it darkened a lot and the chemical colour I put on was quite dark , a lot of the darkness is lifting and the red is coming back into my hair. I don't want to lose the red as I like my hair red. I am not sure how long I will continue with this but will continue for now. I also need to put a colour in for my roots soon so may just try hold out until the end of the month and reassess things then. :)

Alley Cat

Thank you for the information on how long you had been applying henna to your hair.

That and the almost black dye on top of it, would IMO, definitely affect the progress of your results.

Please continue to update on the condition of your hair as you continue with the Jarrah honey.

[Celebrian]

ktani, the first two treatments were 'eyeballed' re the honey to water ratio. I aimed for the one part honey to four parts water.

Last night, with the deionised water, my hand slipped at the honey (Sainsburys Basics) pouring point - and I ended up with 100 mls in the measuring jug. I then added a further 400mls deionised water. Left to stand at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours.

This time, I applied it to clean dry hair (as there was so much liquid!) saran wrapped and left for also about 1 1/2 hours.

Rinsed, shampooed, conditioned.

Hair seems slightly lighter still. Put it this way, all the various tones from multiple varied colorings, seem faded somehow. It's quite a subtle effect - but my husband looked at it and was the one who used the word 'faded' - which is fine by me!

Condition is fine, no problems there.

I may do just one/two more (despite husband complaining about the faded look!) before launching forth onto the next wave of haircoloring.

I'll update if I do...

Glad you're back - I was worried when you seemed to vanish!

[ktani]

ktani, the first two treatments were 'eyeballed' re the honey to water ratio. I aimed for the one part honey to four parts water.

Last night, with the deionised water, my hand slipped at the honey (Sainsburys Basics) pouring point - and I ended up with 100 mls in the measuring jug. I then added a further 400mls deionised water. Left to stand at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours.

This time, I applied it to clean dry hair (as there was so much liquid!) saran wrapped and left for also about 1 1/2 hours.

Rinsed, shampooed, conditioned.

Hair seems slightly lighter still. Put it this way, all the various tones from multiple varied colorings, seem faded somehow. It's quite a subtle effect - but my husband looked at it and was the one who used the word 'faded' - which is fine by me!

Condition is fine, no problems there.

I may do just one/two more (despite husband complaining about the faded look!) before launching forth onto the next wave of haircoloring.

I'll update if I do...

Glad you're back - I was worried when you seemed to vanish!

Celebrian

Thank you for your concern.

It was a very stressful couple of days.

All is well now though.

I was unable schedule wise, to go to another computer to acces the net and I did not know for sure untill today, what if any files that I might have lost.

I am very glad to read that the condition of your is good following honey lightening.

Not that I am surprised - it is the reported contant - in every Honey thread so far, including this one, except for residue results, that have been reported to be temporary when shampoo and vinegar are used to deal with it.

I am also glad to read that you are getting fade, as your husband calls it.

Your measurements are correct for your recipe, 100 ml honey needs 400 ml distilled, or in your case, deioized water.

Thank you for replying so quickly.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Thank you for the information on how long you had been applying henna to your hair.

That and the almost black dye on top of it, would IMO, definitely affect the progress of your results.

Please continue to update on the condition of your hair as you continue with the Jarrah honey.
Your welcome. My hair continues to be really nice after each honey treatment it's like having a deep treatment every time I wash my hair a bonus. :cheese:

Sorry to hear about your computer troubles but glad to hear you have them sorted. :flower:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Thank you.

I have the Best Buy - it is an appliance/computer store here - extended warranty - an excellent repair depot and I lost no files.

I was very very very lucky IMO.

[ktani]

Hi-jack

I was feeling so good about my computer, I tried Faye's method for trimming my hair - it is finally long enough fo me to grab it and use it.
http://community.livejournal.com/feyeselftrim/

I used this method - 2nd option
http://community.livejournal.com/feyeselftrim/2389.html#cutid1

Success - another win in one day.

Than you Faye - wherever you are!!!!!

[LadyPolaris]

ktani, that is awesome - you are brave! When I had longer hair (sigh) I wanted to try Feye's self trim - but I never got around to actually buying a good pair of hair scissors. I'm so glad that it worked well for you! When my hair is longer again (double sigh) I'll definitely want to give it a try. :)

[ktani]

LadyPolaris

Thanks - my stylist has trimmed my hair unevenly and tends to take off more than I want periodically.

I am a little confused by Faye's method though.

I just wanted to even out my hair - not trim length.

The scrunchie method is not practical for me.

However the method I used - if I had taken more off - is also the method for a slight u or v trim.

When I have had my hair cut straight across - when you bring the back hair forward - it is shorter than the side and front hair.

If I try this again for length, I will probably bring the back sections forward and trim more off of them than the side and front sections.

[ktani]

Ok

I just pulled the back hair forward and cut it shorter than the side/front hair.

It is hot here - so I put my hair up.

I did the trim on dry hair - uncombed but pulled taught.

Being wavy, my hair looks even (I was careful and I have corrected my stylist's slight errors when I have done an s&d)) and when I put it up - it feels just like it does after a professional trim when I loop my hair around - the ends feel more like they should at the tips, in terms of what is left to wind - if that makes sense to anyone else.

[Aisha25]

Ok

I just pulled the back hair forward and cut it shorter than the side/front hair.

It is hot here - so I put my hair up.

I did the trim on dry hair - uncombed but pulled taught.

Being wavy, my hair looks even (I was careful and I have corrected my stylists slight errors when I have don an s&d)) and when I put it up - it feels just like it does after a professional trim when I loop my hair around - the ends feel more like they should at the tips, in terms of what is left to wind - if that makes sense to anyone else.
Your so brave Ktani I am so scared to try this on myself :eek:. Hair feel better now?

[ktani]

Your so brave Ktani I am so scared to try this on myself :eek:. Hair feel better now?

Aisha25

Yes thank you, it does.

I have been inspired by other LHC members to try this method.

I haven't had a trim in over 7 months.

Now that my hair is longer, it was easy.

My last trim, my stylist pulled the "oh I cut one side shorter than the other, by accident".

He has done this before when he thinks I have needed more trimmed than requested.

He has a huge heart and is a really good person and a friend but even his girlfriend has commented that he has cut her hair shorter than she wanted at times.

I just decided that why not?

I have cut my hair before, a long time ago.

2 times in a row perfectly.

The 3rd time, I panicked and cut one side 3 inches shorter than the other and never tried again.

This method though is easy.

My last trim, my stylist missed a small section of hair I wound up evening off as well.

I was nervous.

But in the past - precatnip, I have trimmed lots of breakage and split ends.

This is just a step up from that, IMO.

[Loreyanne_H]

Thank you Ktani!

Actually I really appreciate this thread because honey is one of the best things I can put on my hair: it makes my hair smooth, soft and voluminous. When - thank to you - I discovered the honey lightening method...it was a big surprise!

As I have seen by now (only two times honey) my hair is getting lighter, but it seems I really have an hard way along to make it really visible. I keep on trying, and postings my experiments.

Thank you very much for all the work you're doing here!

[ktani]

Thank you Ktani!

Actually I really appreciate this thread because honey is one of the best things I can put on my hair: it makes my hair smooth, soft and voluminous. When - thank to you - I discovered the honey lightening method...it was a big surprise!

As I have seen by now (only two times honey) my hair is getting lighter, but it seems I really have an hard way along to make it really visible. I keep on trying, and postings my experiments.

Thank you very much for all the work you're doing here!

Loreyanne_H

You are most welcome.

Thank you for posting on the condition of your hair following honey lightening.

I am glad that you are so pleasantly surprised and that the condition of your hair is so good.

soleluna is also in Italy.

She reported great success IMO, using black locust honey and the following recipe.

soleluna - on hennaed hair - the correct 4 to 1 dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

The amount of water is important too.

I hope that this helps you get better results faster.

Good luck.

I look forward to new results from you if you continue to honey lighten.

[ktani]

Finding vendors who sell distilled water will vary depending on where you are located, but here is a current thread on the subject.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=8425

[ktani]

An encore of the shortened recommendations.

A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water).

3. Use the 4 to 1 dilution (it is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 ml honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time, except herbal tea if used, that is cooled to room temperature before adding any other ingredients. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

[ktani]

The Honey Article is up.

It is a full verson of the new recommendations, modified only in grammar and punctuation.

My sincere thanks to the mod who took the time and effort to do all of that and embed the links.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=61

[ktani]

An encore of the lastest honey research, from the 2008 Symposium on Honey and Health

http://www.prohoneyandhealth.com/UserFiles/Image/Symposium&#37;20Report.pdf

[ktani]

The current Pictures Post
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

[ktani]

The largest colour change reported in a while, from only 1 treatment, with just honey and water.
From dark mid-brown to what I consider golden blonde.
I still only recommend distilled water.

HalcyonDays - on virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

[ktani]

GlennaGirl on the number of honey lightening treatments she has done and the difference the 4 to 1 dilution made
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112157&postcount=673

GlennaGirl on the condition of her hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl on the colour change
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112238&postcount=678

15 or so treatments, various recipes and dilutions, a better result reported with the 4 to 1 dilution after only 1 treatment with it, and the condition of her hair is good.

GlennGirl's signature picture is the result of her lightening the final henndigo that remained on her hair - mid length, her roots and ends were red and then hennaing over the lightened colour. This was taken after the first 4 to 1 dilution treatment.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

[ktani]

Results can vary with honey lightening depending on what is on the hair, the honey and the method used.

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

Alley Cat on her progress and my comments.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=184859&postcount=1688

Alley Cat update on the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=185225&postcount=1691

[Vainjane]

I tried Honey Lightening on 4th of July

1/8 cup (1.5 oz) Dark wildflower Honey
3/4 cup (6 oz) Disltilled Water
1 Tablespn Extra Virgin Olive Oil
1 Tablespoon Cardamom
I mixed & let set an hour. Then applied w/ color brush to first 4-5 inches. (This was really messy.) Left on 30 minutes, with shower cap.
Then poored the rest though length of hair. Left on another 30 minutes.
CO wash w/ VO5 lavender. Still felt sticky, so did modified CO wash w/ samll amt of Poo added to CO. Rinsed and did regular moisture conditioner, and a fianl white vinigat rinse.
Didn't notice much color change. Don't know if it is Cardamom, Honey, or just not enough mix. (It was dripping, so thought was enough.)
I am not able to attatch pictures, but I can't tell a difference in color, but was good as a treatment.

[ktani]

I tried Honey Lightening on 4th of July

1/8 cup (1.5 oz) Dark wildflower Honey
3/4 cup (6 oz) Disltilled Water
1 Tablespn Extra Virgin Olive Oil
1 Tablespoon Cardamom
I mixed & let set an hour. Then applied w/ color brush to first 4-5 inches. (This was really messy.) Left on 30 minutes, with shower cap.
Then poored the rest though length of hair. Left on another 30 minutes.
CO wash w/ VO5 lavender. Still felt sticky, so did modified CO wash w/ samll amt of Poo added to CO. Rinsed and did regular moisture conditioner, and a fianl white vinigat rinse.
Didn't notice much color change. Don't know if it is Cardamom, Honey, or just not enough mix. (It was dripping, so thought was enough.)
I am not able to attatch pictures, but I can't tell a difference in color, but was good as a treatment.

Vainjane

Thank you for your recipe and report.

I am sorry that you do not see much of a colour difference but I am glad to hear that the treatment was conditioning.

Your recipe sounds perfect.

What was on your hair before you did the treatment?

If you CO, there could have been conditioner build-up.

Your hair loooks quite thick, you may need more recipe.

I recommend trying a treatment on freshly shampooed, slightly damp hair for 1 hour, not divided up as you did - in other words - apply it to the sections first, then to the rest of your hair, put the shower cap on and let it stay on your hair for 1 hour.

If this does not help, I suggest trying a different honey.

Technically, though wildflower honey is a type of "blend", but it depends on what wildflowers are in it, and it is not considered to be a blended honey by definition.

"WILDFLOWER
Wildflower honey is .... honey from miscellaneous and undefined flower sources.

HONEY BLENDS
.... most honey .... supplied in bulk, is blended .... unique and consistent taste and color."
http://www.honeyo.com/types.shtml

Some clover honeys have been reported to work well, while others have not. The plant source or sources determine a honey's peroxide value.

[ktani]

It is no doubt very frustrating for anyone to follow the recommendatons and see no colour change.

I think most of the time it can be the honey.

Not all honeys are created equal, even when you buy a type that has been reported to work well.

That is why when possible, I get the honey brand name for the Successful Honeys List.

mellie, as an example, used a clover honey in Mellie's Mix.

It did not work. But an alfalfa honey did work for her.

But some clover honeys have been reported to work for others - different brands have different species of clover in them.

When I was researching plant sources, I found that for clover honey, for example, there is red clover and white clover and others, that are all possible to be in 1 clover honey in varying amounts.

"CLOVER
Clover honey .... mild taste. .... Red clover, Alsike clover .... white and yellow sweet clovers .... important for honey production. Depending on the location and type of source clover, clover honey varies in color .... water white to light amber to amber."
http://www.honeyo.com/types.shtml

Colour alone, does not mean that a single type honey has more of a chance to have a higher peroxide value.

The dark coloured blends were reported in research to have a higher peroxide value.

Dark coloured blends could be combinations of clover, wildflower and other sources of honey.

Wildflower, is considered 1 typle of honey but is also a "blend" of different flower sources, just as clover or any single source honey can be.

[ktani]

In Canada,

"Most Canadian honey .... graded and marketed as Canada No.1 White .... produced from white clover, canola and alfalfa. .... lighter honey .... often used to blend with darker honey to reduce .... strong flavour in some honey."
http://www4.agr.gc.ca/AAFC-AAC/display-afficher.do?id=1184695493293&lang=e

[ktani]

I edited the Wiki Article on honey, by adding the sentence here, replacing incorrect information. See "Hydrogen peroxide"

"Honey chelates and deactivates the free iron, which starts the formation of oxygen free radicals produced by hydrogen peroxide and the antioxidant constituents in honey help clean up oxygen free radicals present." http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey

The hydrogen peroxide in honey oxidizes honey's own Vitamin C content, which is usually very low but if it is not, the peroxide can be reduced enough to be almost eliminated.

Likewise, if the hydrogen peroxide in honey comes in contact with large mineral amounts, like in most tap water, contact with iron, manganese and copper, can cause the peroxide to decompose into oxygen and water.

The chelators and antioxidants naturally present in honey, can only do so much.

[MeMyselfandI]

ktani,

Thanks for posting about the honey, I was just about to ask about them.

Are there any brands of honey that are better then others.

Should I look for dark verse light? I think that is what you mean. I have only seen clover honey and regular grade 1 honey and the white/cream honey.

The white honey is that the one that looks like cream or is it a light honey?

[ktani]

ktani,

Thanks for posting about the honey, I was just about to ask about them.

Are there any brands of honey that are better then others.

Should I look for dark verse light? I think that is what you mean. I have only seen clover honey and regular grade 1 honey and the white/cream honey.

The white honey is that the one that looks like cream or is it a light honey?

MeMyselfandI

The Successful Honeys List has brand names that have been reported to be successful. Here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

The blends you speak of - try one of the darker ones.

In Canada, an average of all honeys tested had good peroxide values - so do not worry too much about colour.

In the U.S. and in general - darker coloured blends are preferable, and were reported to have higher peroxide values.

The operative word is blends - not a single source honey like clover.

Jarrah honey from Australia is known to have a very high peroxide value, and Alley Cat has been reporting that it not only works well, but leaves her hair feeling very as well. See #10 in my signature post.

[ktani]

Here is a repeat of the Canadian science project using 4 Canadian honeys for antibacterial purposes.

All 4 Canadian honeys had the same peroxide value - 1 was more effective for the study purpose.
http://www.honeycouncil.ca/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5136

[Vainjane]

Vainjane

Thank you for your recipe and report.

I am sorry that you do not see much of a colour difference but I am glad to hear that the treatment was conditioning.

Your recipe sounds perfect.

What was on your hair before you did the treatment?

If you CO, there could have been conditioner build-up.

Your hair loooks quite thick, you may need more recipe.

I recommend trying a treatment on freshly shampooed, slightly damp hair for 1 hour, not divided up as you did - in other words - apply it to the sections first, then to the rest of your hair, put the shower cap on and let it stay on your hair for 1 hour.

If this does not help, I suggest trying a different honey.

Technically, though wildflower honey is a type of "blend", but it depends on what wildflowers are in it, and it is not considered to be a blended honey by definition.

"WILDFLOWER
Wildflower honey is .... honey from miscellaneous and undefined flower sources.

HONEY BLENDS
.... most honey .... supplied in bulk, is blended .... unique and consistent taste and color."
http://www.honeyo.com/types.shtml

Some clover honeys have been reported to work well, while others have not. The plant source or sources determine a honey's peroxide value.
Now that you mention it, I had oiled the weekend before; possibly a factor. I had CO/W/CO & air dried prior to treetment. I am going to try again just after clarifying and leave out the enhancers. If that does not work, I will try a different honey. Either way, I like what the honey does for my hair.

[ktani]

Now that you mention it, I had oiled the weekend before; possibly a factor. I had CO/W/CO & air dried prior to treetment. I am going to try again just after clarifying and leave out the enhancers. If that does not work, I will try a different honey. Either way, I like what the honey does for my hair.

Vainjane

The oil and the conditioner could well be the problem.

You solution makes sense, IMO.

Good luck and please keep me updated.

At the very least, you got a good conditioning treatment.

[MeMyselfandI]

Thanks ktani.

I appreciate it.

[ktani]

Thanks ktani.

I appreciate it.

MeMyselfandI

You are most welcome.

[Jan in ID]

HI, Here is my latest update!

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/JanInId/hairo042008_400x300.jpg
http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/JanInId/hair071508.jpg


The first image is virgin hair from 04/20/08.
The second image is from today after 5 treatments.

This is my recipe:

1/8 cup raw honey (2 tbs or 42.5 grams) (Really Raw brand)
3/4 cup distilled water (12 tbs or 170 grams)
1/2 tbs evoo
1 tbs cinnamon

Let set for one hour.
Apply to hair and cover with plastic cap and towel and leave on for one hour.

My hair is still feeling great!

[ktani]

HI, Here is my latest update!

http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/JanInId/hairo042008_400x300.jpg
http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/JanInId/hair071508.jpg


The first image is virgin hair from 04/20/08.
The second image is from today after 5 treatments.

This is my recipe:

1/8 cup raw honey (2 tbs or 42.5 grams) (Really Raw brand)
3/4 cup distilled water (12 tbs or 170 grams)
1/2 tbs evoo
1 tbs cinnamon

Let set for one hour.
Apply to hair and cover with plastic cap and towel and leave on for one hour.

My hair is still feeling great!

Jan in ID

Thank you so much for such a complete post.

You are now a blonde, IMO. Nice!

From mid-brown to blonde!

It really helps to have everything in one post, the pictures, the honey used, the recipe and method and the condition of the hair.

After 5 treatments - no reported damage - and consistent in that respect, with all other reports of multiple honey lightening treatments.

[Jan in ID]

Your welcome!
Thank you for keeping all of this together for us!

[ktani]

Jan in ID

The Pictures post and the Successful Honeys List have both been updated.

Thank you.

Pictures Post
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

[ktani]

Your welcome!
Thank you for keeping all of this together for us!

Jan in ID

My pleasure!

It has been a learning experience for me and I enjoy it.

I am a lot more organized than I used to be too, lol.

[MeMyselfandI]

All I can say too bad these honey treatments do not seem to work on my colour treated hair. Maybe to many henna layers on top to go through.

[MeMyselfandI]

Jan in ID

Do you apply on wet or dry hair.

Were you removing henna or liighting virgin hair?

Thanks for your method.

[ktani]

All I can say too bad these honey treatments do not seem to work on my colour treated hair. Maybe to many henna layers on top to go through.

MeMyselfandI

Jan in ID's hair colour is/was virgin.

I would be happy to go through what you are doing exactly with your honey lightening.

Maybe I can help turn this around for you.

Even with chemical colour and layers of henna, honey lightening has been reported work and work well.

Alley Cat's hair has taken longer to lighten, but she started out with the old recipes and dilutions. She hennaed for 2 years before the colour, so there is a lot of henna there.

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the correct 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Alley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

[ktani]

MeMyselfandI

Here is the shortened version of the newest honey lightening recommendations. The full version is linked in my signature.

You can use it as a checklist.

If there is any residue/oil on your hair when you apply the treatment, that can affect results too.

It is recommended that the treatment be applied to dry, unwashed hair, however that depends on what is on the hair.

It may need washing first and then it should be dried to slightly damp, to help prevent excess drips.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source."

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its ingredients and lack of water content can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water).

3. Use the 4 to 1 dilution (it is based on 4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water, 50 ml honey needs 200 ml distilled water etc.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time, except herbal tea if used, that is cooled to room temperature before adding any other ingredients. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

7. Apply the treatment to dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or an unrinsed out rinse with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash the hair first then dry it to slightly damp. You will get less drips on dry hair. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, or pastry brush or a squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair with plastic, to keep it out of the way and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

[MeMyselfandI]

Thanks for the info ktani.

I followed the new method.

I second testing new ingredients. I found the cinnamon hot on my head.

I find the honey method lifts henna well. I found different henna's or the newer one was removed easier.

For Ally Cat, was th e chemical dye removed or was the henna removed?

[ktani]

Thanks for the info ktani.

I followed the new method.

I second testing new ingredients. I found the cinnamon hot on my head.

I find the honey method lifts henna well. I found different henna's or the newer one was removed easier.

For Ally Cat, was th e chemical dye removed or was the henna removed?

MeMyselfandI

Alley Cat dyed her previously hennaed hair.

But the colour went wrong and it was almost black.

Enter honey lightening.

If you look at her first picture - it was after 2 or 3 of the old honey treatment recipes and dilutions and the chemical dye was already being lifted.

The picture after that is the continuation of the chemical dye being lifted and no doubt the henna layers as well.

Look at her ends in the 2nd picture - they are red - no chemical dye left on them.

[MeMyselfandI]

MeMyselfandI

Alley Cat dyed her previously hennaed hair.

But the colour went wrong and it was almost black.

Enter honey lightening.

If you look at her first picture - it was after 2 or 3 of the old honey treatment recipes and dilutions and the chemical dye was already being lifted.

Each picture after that is the continuation of the chemical dye being lifted and no doubt the henna layers as well.

Thanks for the clarification ktani.

[ktani]

Thanks for the clarification ktani.

You are welcome.

I had added this line when I edited to clarify and fix spelling after that - there are only 2 pictures, while you were posting.

"Look at her ends in the 2nd picture - they are red - no chemical dye left on them."

[MeMyselfandI]

You are welcome.

I had added this line when I edited to clarify and fix spelling after that - there are only 2 pictures, while you were posting.

"Look at her ends in the 2nd picture - they are red - no chemical dye left on them."

WOW,

Thanks Ktani,

I had not made the connection of the red being without the chemical dye.

How often can honey treatments be applied to hair?

[ktani]

WOW,

Thanks Ktani,

I had not made the connection of the red being without the chemical dye.

How often can honey treatments be applied to hair?

As often as you wish, IMO.

Honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage to date - and that is over 5 Honey threads, including this one.

[MeMyselfandI]

Thanks again ktani,

I will do a couple of more honey treatments again before I go the route of the chemical stuff.

[ktani]

Thanks again ktani,

I will do a couple of more honey treatments again before I go the route of the chemical stuff.

MeMyselfandI

You are most welcome.

[Mishka_84]

Is there any benefit to leaving the honey mix on longer than 1 hour? Or does it become less effective after that length of time?

Thanks for all the work you've put into this! :)

[Jan in ID]

Jan in ID

Do you apply on wet or dry hair.

Were you removing henna or liighting virgin hair?

Thanks for your method.


I usually apply to dry hair.
As Ktani said, I started with virgin hair.
Thanks!

[ktani]

Is there any benefit to leaving the honey mix on longer than 1 hour? Or does it become less effective after that length of time?

Thanks for all the work you've put into this! :)

Mishka_84

You are welcome.

You can leave the treatment on longer than 1 hour but I do not believe that it is necessary.

It should not be less effective over several hours - there is only so much peroxide in 1 treatment.

If you let the honey lightening treatment sit for 1 hour at room temperature before applying it, the peroxide in the honey will be at full strength.

[flapjack]

I did another honey treatment the day before yesterday, so that was treatment number five. I'm going slowly because as I mentioned awhile back, I don't want to lighten too much. I was supposed to take photos after treatment four and completely forgot, so my apologies about that.


So these are from today. Yesterday my hair was covered in cocoa butter so the color was... not normal, haha.


In bright, direct sunlight.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1441&pictureid=17077


Outside in the shade.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1441&pictureid=17076

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1441&pictureid=17075


I have a lot of dark and coarse hairs throughout my head that seem to be very stubborn but are coming around. I think some of them are lightening to shades of reds and golds. I have yet to see any orange, which is good because that is not a good shade of hair for me.


If you need more direct sunlight pictures, just let me know and I can take some tomorrow. I ran out of time today. I'm also making a folder of all my honey related pictures since May and hopefully that will help people see the process. It's been slow, haha.


I feel like at this point, I should also mention that the ends have always been lighter. This is because I was naturally blonde until around 18-20 and my hair randomly decided to darken up. I've just started calculating how long my hair is and how much it grows since joining LHC so I have no idea how much old blonde is left, but I imagine the bottom few inches might have some. A good chunk of the old blonde has been cut off because I maintained the same length for several years. Just pointing that out.

[ktani]

I did another honey treatment the day before yesterday, so that was treatment number five. I'm going slowly because as I mentioned awhile back, I don't want to lighten too much. I was supposed to take photos after treatment four and completely forgot, so my apologies about that.


So these are from today. Yesterday my hair was covered in cocoa butter so the color was... not normal, haha.


In bright, direct sunlight.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1441&pictureid=17077


Outside in the shade.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1441&pictureid=17076

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1441&pictureid=17075


I have a lot of dark and coarse hairs throughout my head that seem to be very stubborn but are coming around. I think some of them are lightening to shades of reds and golds. I have yet to see any orange, which is good because that is not a good shade of hair for me.


If you need more direct sunlight pictures, just let me know and I can take some tomorrow. I ran out of time today. I'm also making a folder of all my honey related pictures since May and hopefully that will help people see the process. It's been slow, haha.


I feel like at this point, I should also mention that the ends have always been lighter. This is because I was naturally blonde until around 18-20 and my hair randomly decided to darken up. I've just started calculating how long my hair is and how much it grows since joining LHC so I have no idea how much old blonde is left, but I imagine the bottom few inches might have some. A good chunk of the old blonde has been cut off because I maintained the same length for several years. Just pointing that out.

flapjack

Thank you for posting the pictures and information.

Please post the recipe and method that you are currently using.

This was your last recipe.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=139294&postcount=1116

Are you using distilled water and letting the recipe sit for 1 hour before applying it now?

You were also going to switch to using plastic because you were just using towels then, which would have absorbed the treatment, dried the hair and prevented the honey from continuing to produce peroxide. How has using plastic worked out?

I understand your concerns about not wanting to lighten too much, although your goal is the opposite to most who try honey lightening.

And direct sunlight after pictures would be great, if you can manage it.

It would be really helpful if you could post your catalogue of pictures to see your progress.

Your hair looks really shiny.

How would you compare the condition of your hair now to what it was like before the 5 honey lightening treatments?

[flapjack]

You're welcome. The recipe I have been using the past two times was the same as the third one. One ounce of trader joe's orange blossom honey in four ounces of water. I haven't had the opportunity to try the DI water at the moment and the water where I live is VERY hard, so I have been using arrowhead bottled water for all the treatments. I know that still has minerals, but it's a lot less than what is in my sink, haha. I let it sit in the squeeze bottle for an hour before using it. I also added a little bit of coconut oil, but the amount was very small. I let that soak on my hair under a plastic bag for about two hours.


Hahaha, yes, that is true. It seems many people want to lighten up a lot but my hair is already pretty light in some areas and I don't want to go orange or blonde. Especially orange, I am very afraid of that, honestly.


I will take pictures in direct sunlight tomorrow. :)


My hair is in the same condition now that it was before May when I started with the honey. The shine and softness are the same, I have not noticed any split or dry ends. My hair feels normal once I wash it all out and during the process, the little of my hair that I have touched just feels very sticky. Using a handful of conditioner and using the CWC routine has gotten everything out without a problem.


This was the shine before the honey treatments, the photo is from January.


http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1121&pictureid=12886


It looks the same to me, I believe. Except for the colors, of course.

[flapjack]

Doh, I forgot that I used cinnamon and evoo the third time. I didn't use either of those the fourth and fifth times.


And yes, the plastic bag has helped not only... keep me from doing more laundry, but it keeps the goop on my hair and out of the way. And my hair was still very wet/slimy and sticky when I took off the plastic. When I used the towel, it was damp, so it was drying on my hair. I imagine this has given me better results, as you had said before.

[ktani]

flapjack

If you look at these 2 results - also on virgin hair, as I believe yours is, they skipped the red shades altogether and went to what I call blonde shades from dark and mid-brown.

Oddly enough, by going slowly and using bottled water with minerals in it - you are indeed going slower but at the same time, risking what you fear the most - red shades.

You hair is lightening from what you say and the pictures but the next step up from brown is red, unless you bypass it as both these results did, IMO.

You already have some blonde in your hair - are you trying for golden tones?

Jan in ID - on virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on virgin hair - with the corrected 4 to 1 dilution - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the conditioner of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on virgin hair - with the 4 to 1 dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

[flapjack]

Hmmm, I'm going to reserve judgment until we see the pictures tomorrow. I think I might just be paranoid about orange because I made my hair orange with lemon juice when I was younger and it was a very bad experience. I have yet to see any orange this time around. And I naturally have some red in my hair, so having more isn't a problem if that happens (I already think it has happened, honestly).


So we will see tomorrow. I'm probably just being silly. That happens a lot.


They both got really great results in such a small amount of time/treatments. I wonder if having fine, medium or coarse hair has any relation to this. Or maybe it really was the towel. It's hard to tell at this point, I need more treatments to make a better judgment. And yes, my hair is virgin as well, I have never dyed my hair with actual chemicals before.


My real goal with this is to help match up the top part of my hair to the bottom a bit better. I understand of course that natural hair is supposed to be darker on top and I want to keep that, but I feel like the difference is too much right now. I can live with it and I have for a long time because I don't like dye. But with the honey, it seems like I have a chance of improving that a bit, which is why I have been trying. The blonde and red already in my hair is fine, I just get annoyed with the bottom parts. Years of summers and being a blonde before has left them too light in comparison imo. I know my hair is darkening up, I just want to change to be more gradual.

[ktani]

flapjack

In the sunlight picture, I see some red too.

And thank you for posting on the condition of your hair after 5 treatments.

I am glad that it matches what it looks like to me - healthy hair.

Thank you also for confirming that your starting hair colour is/was virgin in colour.

Jan in ID got slower results than HalcyonDays but both are blonde now IMO, and no trace of red.

[ktani]

flapjack

I just went though your picture album - I see orange/red there - not drastic - but it is there, IMO.

I think that if you move up a bit in tone, that it will be more gold and less orange/red and blend better.

To do that, maybe cut the timing - 30 to 45 minutes, using distilled water.

Your ends look light blonde to me though, not gold in colour.

[ktani]

Just a reminder, chestnut honey is another honey to avoid for honey lightening, aside from those listed in the recommendations.

In this case, the reason is not Vitamin C. It is its iron content.

Chestnut honey is high in iron - See "Different kinds of honey on the market"
http://www.consumerbuyguide.com/guid...age/honey.html (http://www.consumerbuyguide.com/guid...age/honey.html)

See #2
"The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron ...."
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html)

[Misty]

Ktani,
Have you been able to get Jarrah Honey?
It seems that they only sell it in Australia and I am in New York City, NY...I am eager to try it on my hair (as per your suggestions).
Where can I order from here in the USA?

Thanks a lot

[ktani]

Ktani,
Have you been able to get Jarrah Honey?
It seems that they only sell it in Australia and I am in New York City, NY...I am eager to try it on my hair (as per your suggestions).
Where can I order from here in the USA?

Thanks a lot

Misty

Jarrah honey may be sold internationally but I sourced direct suppliers in Australia who sell and ship it internationally.

This is the post linked in #10 in the recommendations post in my signature.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

[ktani]

One of the biggest surprises to me, when I was researching the Vitamin C content of ingredients that someone had used in a honey lightening recipe earlier this year - an SMT actually, that was not microwaved but had temporarily lightened for them, was that aloe gel contains 3 x the amount of Vitamin C than raw lemon juice!

No wonder the person had problems with their results.

They have hennaed hair and got a redox reaction. Their hair colour lightened then redarkened.

That was not from the honey. They used a very large amout of aloe gel. The aloe gel caused the same reaction with the henna that lemon juice has been reported to for the same reason, IMO. Honey lightening has not been reported to cause the redarkening of hair colour.


Aloe gel Vitamin C content.
Aloe vera gel - about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml (g) or 1 "cup.
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Raw lemon juice Vitamin C content
Lemon juice, raw - 112 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html


Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so.

The peroxide produced by the honey in this case was fully depleted IMO.

".... if the honey contains vitamin C, the H2 O2 is used to oxidize the vitamin .... amount of H2 O2 is less."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

[harley mama]

I poured over this thread all morning and decided to get honey a try and see if I could lighten my hair a shade or 2. The following is posted in my journal but, I wanted to share here also.

I spent the whole morning reading the honey thread. It was very interesting. And, of course, I had to try it on my hair after going to all the trouble to read the thread.

I mixed-
1 c. water (bring to boil)
1 chamomile tea bag (steeped in above water)
3/4 tsp. cinnamon
1/4 tsp. nutmeg
2 tbs. EVVO
1/3 c. honey
1/3 c. VO5 Pomegranate and grape seed conditioner

I mixed everything together after the water/tea cooled to room temperature and let it sit for about 30 minutes. I shampooed my hair with VO5 Tea Therapy clarifying shampoo and then, applied the mixture to my hair after I squeezed the excess water out. I piled my hair on my head and put on my shower cap and wrapped the whole mess in a towel to catch drips. I left the goop on for about 2 hours. I rinsed well with cool water and conditioned with the VO5 Pomegranate and grape, finished up all my other shower duties and then detangled and rinsed well again. I then applied same conditioner to the length of my hair and squeezed it through and left it.

Here are the before and after photos. I don't see any difference in the color. But, my hair is soft and shiny now. I'll try it again just because I like the feel of my hair after doing it! My hair has been dry since going through chemo and this really helped moisturize it. :D

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p64/maknana/hairstyles/beforeafter1-1.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p64/maknana/hairstyles/beforeafter2.jpg

[ktani]

[quote=harley mama;194222]I poured over this thread all morning and decided to get honey a try and see if I could lighten my hair a shade or 2. The following is posted in my journal but, I wanted to share here also.

I spent the whole morning reading the honey thread. It was very interesting. And, of course, I had to try it on my hair after going to all the trouble to read the thread.

I mixed-
1 c. water (bring to boil)
1 chamomile tea bag (steeped in above water)
3/4 tsp. cinnamon
1/4 tsp. nutmeg
2 tbs. EVVO
1/3 c. honey
1/3 c. VO5 Pomegranate and grape seed conditioner

I mixed everything together after the water/tea cooled to room temperature and let it sit for about 30 minutes. I shampooed my hair with VO5 Tea Therapy clarifying shampoo and then, applied the mixture to my hair after I squeezed the excess water out. I piled my hair on my head and put on my shower cap and wrapped the whole mess in a towel to catch drips. I left the goop on for about 2 hours. I rinsed well with cool water and conditioned with the VO5 Pomegranate and grape, finished up all my other shower duties and then detangled and rinsed well again. I then applied same conditioner to the length of my hair and squeezed it through and left it.

Here are the before and after photos. I don't see any difference in the color. But, my hair is soft and shiny now. I'll try it again just because I like the feel of my hair after doing it! My hair has been dry since going through chemo and this really helped moisturize it. :D

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p64/maknana/hairstyles/beforeafter1-1.jpg


harley mama

Thank you for posting your recipe, method and pictures.

I am glad that you read the thread but sorry that you did not read the new recommendations in the first post and in my signature.

I am also glad for you that your hair feels so good.

I will break this down for you to help you out.

1. Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening.
It contains ingredients that can and no doubt in my mind, did interfere with your results.

2. Your proportions were incorrect for the amount of water you needed to dilute the honey.
1/3 cup honey would need 16 oz of water to be properly diluted. Based on 1 cup US being 8 oz, you used 1/2 of the water actually needed (excluding however much water is in the conditioner). The 4 to 1 dilution is based on weight.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

3. Only distilled water is recommended. You can use chamomile tea - brewed and cooled as you did but with distilled water.

4. The recipe is recommended to be left to sit for 1 hour before being applied to the hair to let the fully diluted honey produce its maximum peroxide value.

Here is the shortened version of the recommendations.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628

[harley mama]

Can filtered water be used?

[ktani]

Can filtered water be used?

harley mama

No, filtered water is not the same.

The idea is that the water be free of minerals.

Distilled or deionized water is best.

Distilled is easier to find.

Hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain metals, iron, manganese and copper.

See #2
"The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron ...."
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html)