Honey thread - from TBB and bits from old LHC

[wintersun99]

The minimum amount of honey to use, based the research link I based the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution on, says 1/8 cup or 10 grams.

Hey, I'm not sure I knew this before, learn something new everyday (or hour) around here. :p

[ktani]

kimki

I suggest that if you do - if you can - that you use 1/4 cup honey and increase the liquid - use chamomile tea - to help with any irritation - 1 cup.

[Alley Cat]

I did my 3rd honey treatment today 1/4 cup of honey, 1 cup of chamomile tea, 1 tab cinnamon, 1 tab EVOO and left for over an hour and a 1/2. I don't see a change in colour , but when I asked husband if it looks lighter than when I first had it coloured he said yes it does. He thinks it is just probably fading from washing though. It's hard to say really with hair this colour , he said it's not as black as it was looking when you first coloured it :shrug:
I had a lot of trouble getting the cinnamon out which I didn't happen when I used conditioner in fact the cinnamon mixed well in the conditioner but not well in the water mix , it was lumpy . I got out of the shower to discover bits still through out my hair, so I combed it and poured more water on it and combed again . A real pain it was.
I was wondering if I continued with the chamomile tea if I could add the cinnamon to the hot water while it's brewing to see if that would make it mix in better. I don't know whether it would or whether that would affect how the cinnamon works as a lightening agent. ? :confused:
I can't get cardamon I looked in the supermarket and in a health food shop and there was none and I bought a couple of bags of cinnamon. :rolleyes:

[ktani]

I did my 3rd honey treatment today 1/4 cup of honey, 1 cup of chamomile tea, 1 tab cinnamon, 1 tab EVOO and left for over an hour and a 1/2. I don't see a change in colour , but when I asked husband if it looks lighter than when I first had it coloured he said yes it does. He thinks it is just probably fading from washing though. It's hard to say really with hair this colour , he said it's not as black as it was looking when you first coloured it :shrug:
I had a lot of trouble getting the cinnamon out which I didn't happen when I used conditioner in fact the cinnamon mixed well in the conditioner but not well in the water mix , it was lumpy . I got out of the shower to discover bits still through out my hair, so I combed it and poured more water on it and combed again . A real pain it was.
I was wondering if I continued with the chamomile tea if I could add the cinnamon to the hot water while it's brewing to see if that would make it mix in better. I don't know whether it would or whether that would affect how the cinnamon works as a lightening agent. ? :confused:
I can't get cardamon I looked in the supermarket and in a health food shop and there was none and I bought a couple of bags of cinnamon. :rolleyes:

Alley Cat

Thank you for the update.

It sounds as if your colour is changing somewhat.

You could try a different honey - a dark coloured honey blend.

The chamomile tea must be cooled to room temperature before addiing the honey or the cinnamon and EVOO - high heat negatively affects the peroxide.

As an experiment just now, I added cinnamon to cold water, and stirred with a spoon - yes it was a bit lumpy - then I added honey - and stirred again - no lumps - the solution was smooth.

I do not know what a "tab" is.

I did not measure the cinnamon or honey - but I used enough of both to get a strong cinnamon honey - solution - and it turned out smooth.

I suggest adding the honey first to room temperature tea only - then the cinnamon - stir well - then add the EVOO.

You could try to get ground cardamom at Indian or Middle Eastern food stores - it is used in Middle Eastern and Indian food.

I recommend patch testing it first.

[SolSara]

Being a long thread, I just scummed through, reading posts here and there, thinking that would be enough to try it out by myself. Like, how hard can it be? But somehow I missed the part about irritation from cinnamon... :hmm:

Made a blend of a very light conditioner, honey, EVOO and cinnamon, applied most of it to the roots, massaged it in (they are much darker then the rest of the hair) and applying the rest to the lenghts. Put on a plastic cap and went to rinse off what had dripped on my shoulders and back. Got a glance of my shoulder and OMG... shudder: It was evil red! The other just the same. Then I felt a burning on the forehead and the ears, and knowing that my scalp is more sensitive than the rest of my skin, I dragged the cap of in panic and rinsed for like a quarter, scratching to get all the cinnamon out.

It never occured to me to test before using it. I've never been sensitive more than you should be for anything. Glad to say, one hour later, the redness is almost gone. :) I'm even thinking about redoing it right away, if I can find any cardamom in our small kitchen. :)

[ktani]

wintersun99

I need to up-date the thread very soon - I am glad that information helped.

[ktani]

Being a long thread, I just scummed through, reading posts here and there, thinking that would be enough to try it out by myself. Like, how hard can it be? But somehow I missed the part about irritation from cinnamon... :hmm:

Made a blend of a very light conditioner, honey, EVOO and cinnamon, applied most of it to the roots, massaged it in (they are much darker then the rest of the hair) and applying the rest to the lenghts. Put on a plastic cap and went to rinse off what had dripped on my shoulders and back. Got a glance of my shoulder and OMG... shudder: It was evil red! The other just the same. Then I felt a burning on the forehead and the ears, and knowing that my scalp is more sensitive than the rest of my skin, I dragged the cap of in panic and rinsed for like a quarter, scratching to get all the cinnamon out.

It never occured to me to test before using it. I've never been sensitive more than you should be for anything. Glad to say, one hour later, the redness is almost gone. :) I'm even thinking about redoing it right away, if I can find any cardamom in our small kitchen. :)

SolSara

Thank you for posting what happend to you and I am very relieved to read that your cinnamon irritation, like that of others, was a temporary experience.

What happened to you illustrates 3 things.

1. Patch test first - any ingredient you are not familiar with using on your scalp or skin.

2. Conditioner - based on reports, cannot protect one from an ingredient being irritating, if enough of the ingredient is used and or one is sensitive to it.

3. Please ask questions if you are unsure of what to do or use or just want to check it out before you try a honey lightening treatment - I will always respond and help out - and the method and details are important to help get the best results possible.

Try using chamomile tea a your water base - I cup cooled to room temperature chamomile tea to 1/4 cup of honey. The chamomile tea is no guarantee but it has been reported to help counter spice irritation with the treatments and it has a traditional history of use to counter irritation.

You can add cinnamon - about 1.5-2 tablespoon to the honey and tea first, then add in the EVOO.

I suggest ground cardamom for you - after patch testing it, because of your reaction to the cinnamon.

Succesful application techniques include using a tint or blush brush to apply the liquid.

Conditioner is no longer recommended - it can be contain problematic ingredients and IMO, reduces the optimal dilution needed for the treatments.

[ktani]

A honey lightening treatment up-date

Patch test first, any ingredient that you are unfamiliar with using on your scalp and skin.

There is now a successful honeys list - here it is - it is constantly updated.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856

If you live where these honeys are not available - try a dark coloured, inexpensive honey blend. Pasteurizing does not affect the honey peroxide level.


1. The recommended dilution is 4 parts room temperature only water to 1 part honey. Heat (except body heat) negatively affects peroxide.The minimum amount of honey to be used is 1/8 th cup or 10 grams.

2. Conditioner is not recommended as part of the dilution - herbal tea is (as long as it is a tea that contains no Vitamin C) - cooled to room temperature only before using - Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis) is preferable but German chamomile (Matricaria chamomilla) will do just fine - chamomile helps counter irritation. Also recommended - Mellie’s Mix - 1 cup water (made into tea) with 1 tablespoon each of Roman chamomile, mullein to 1/4 cup of honey.

3. Mix the honey and the room temperature water or tea first, before adding spice or oil - it helps make the solution smoother.

4. The peroxide recipe boosters are; extra virgin olive oil, coconut oil, ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, . My spice pick - cardamom - that will depend on your sensitivity.

5. Recommended application techniques include using a tint or blush brush.

6. The hair should be covered with plastic during the 1 hour treatment. An exception to this can be made if applying the treatment to a small roots only area - on dry hair - in this case - misting the area during the hour with water to keep it wet, is necessary.

ETA: 7. Do not apply heat to any of the peroxide containing ingredients of the treatment, at any point in the recipe preparation. Body heat, once the treatment is on the hair and covered, is the only heat recommended - except for making the herbal tea - which is only to be used with the other ingredients when cooled to room temperature and not before.

[Gabriel]

So I tried this again using a half of a cup of honey to two cups of water.

I boiled a teaspoon of ground cinnamon and a half of teaspoon of ground clove in the water first and then let it get room temperature and strained it.

After it was room temp & strained, I mixed it with the honey and 1/4 cup of olive oil.

It was way too much for my hair so I know to half everything next time and that will be enough.

(I made so much because I wasn't sure if less would be enough for some reason)

It left my hair really soft and shiney & it looks a little lighter to me but nothing dramatic. It kind of brings out natural, very subtle highlights.

I used the same honey as last time.

[ktani]

So I tried this again using a half of a cup of honey to two cups of water.

I boiled a teaspoon of ground cinnamon and a half of teaspoon of ground clove in the water first and then let it get room temperature and strained it.

After it was room temp & strained, I mixed it with the honey and 1/4 cup of olive oil.

It was way too much for my hair so I know to half everything next time and that will be enough.

(I made so much because I wasn't sure if less would be enough for some reason)

It left my hair really soft and shiney & it looks a little lighter to me but nothing dramatic. It kind of brings out natural, very subtle highlights.

I used the same honey as last time.

Gabriel

Thank you for your update and recipe.

Your dilution was right on the mark.

However - by boiling the cinnamon - you destroyed the peroxide in it - making it useless to the recipe.

High heat negatively affects hydrogen peroxide. Do not use any heat (except body heat when the treatment is on your hair and covered) with the peroxide ingredients.

Ground cloves, while aromatic, contain very little peroxide and clove is an irritant - by boiling both it and the cinnamon - they added nothing to the recipe IMO.

Here is information I posted previously, in addition to other research I have read and posted that stated no external heat is to be used with honey to not affect its peroxide level - this IMO, applies to the whole honey lightening treatment - just body heat is recommended, which has been reported in the honey and wound research, to not affect the enzyme that produces hydrogen peroxide in honey or the peroxide itself.

"Hydrogen peroxide .... contact with heat, will usually decompose into water and oxygen..."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

Pasteurization does not use a high enough heat for a long enough period of time to affect the crucial enzyme in honey.

Pasteurized honey has worked very well, based on reports, for honey lightening.

It is about the degree of heat and the time applied. If what you had done did not affect the cinnamon IMO, your results would have been better.

To be on the safe side of the heat issue and peroxide - avoid it except as I have said, for body heat.

I am glad that you got some lightening from the honey.

[morgwn]

I've just done firebird's honey-cassia-EVOO-cinnamon combo on my hair and am waiting for it to dry to see the results. I took a hair photo right before my treatment and will take another photo tomorrow when it's dry. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it works for me; it looks good so far while wet. :)

[ktani]

morgwn

Thank you for your report.

As long as you did not add orange juice to the cassia and let it dye release and added it straight to the honey lightening treatment (pre-mixed with water just before adding it would be ok) and your dilution was 4 parts water or chamomile tea in this case (cooled first before using it) to 1 part honey, you should be fine.

I look forward to your results and pictures.

[ktani]

I will be updating this thread more often to make it easier to catch up on the latest news, research and reports.

I realize that this thread is very long - the updates should help and I will always answer any questions to the best of my ability, based both on the continued research and the most current reported results, as well as the reported results from the previous Honey threads.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Thank you for the update.

It sounds as if your colour is changing somewhat.

You could try a different honey - a dark coloured honey blend.

The chamomile tea must be cooled to room temperature before addiing the honey or the cinnamon and EVOO - high heat negatively affects the peroxide.

As an experiment just now, I added cinnamon to cold water, and stirred with a spoon - yes it was a bit lumpy - then I added honey - and stirred again - no lumps - the solution was smooth.

I do not know what a "tab" is.

I did not measure the cinnamon or honey - but I used enough of both to get a strong cinnamon honey - solution - and it turned out smooth.

I suggest adding the honey first to room temperature tea only - then the cinnamon - stir well - then add the EVOO.

You could try to get ground cardamom at Indian or Middle Eastern food stores - it is used in Middle Eastern and Indian food.

I recommend patch testing it first.
Thank you for your reply and advice. First of all tab is my abbreviation for tablespoon sorry about that:o
What you mentioned about how to add the cinnamon I will try next time I added honey and evoo mix and stirred them together and then added the cinnamon then poured the chamomile tea over that.
So from your advice you mix the honey and the water first before adding spice then the oil. I will try that next time. :)
Thanks for the information on where to get cardamon , I might look for it or stick with cinnamon seeing as I have heaps. :shrug:

[Alley Cat]

Oh yes forgot to mention this is the second brand of honey I have tried and it is much darker than the last one, both of them are cheap home brand types from my local supermarkets but the second one is a lot darker. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

You can always cook and or bake with the cinnamon.

However there have been coumarin warnings with cinnamon too.

Your scalp comfort is important IMO - see how it goes.

Please update on the differences if any between the honeys.

[ktani]

This information is right on the mark in terms of cassia cinnamon, cosmetics containing coumarin and this thread.

"The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake

natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. This plant ingredient is found in woodruff and sweet clover and there are higher levels in cassia cinnamon, too. ... synthetically produced coumarin is added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment (BfR) has evaluated the analytical results .... in order to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. The result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

An encore of this post.

and links to these 2 on ingesting coumarin in cinnamon and food.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=81337&postcount=419

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=81414&postcount=420

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

You can always cook and or bake with the cinnamon.

However there have been coumarin warnings with cinnamon too.

Your scalp comfort is important IMO - see how it goes.

Please update on the differences if any between the honeys.
Yes I could cook with it, I think the cinnamon I got would be fine it came from the health food shop. I am not really sure if I can tell the difference in the honey as I can really see much of a change like I said above, though also as I said hubbie says it's lighter than when first coloured. I did take a picture so eventually I may take another one to see if it has lightened but I might wait for some more treatments as I don't know if any difference will show up as yet. :shrug:
Another thing I used the lighter honey with conditioner so that would be a variable too. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

First - thank you for clearing up what you meant by tab.

Yes - conditioner can be an important variable - it can contain problematic ingredients and depending on the water content - interfere with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution.

As I have said, diluted enough to to come close to the dilution - it has been reported to yield better results in the honey lightening recipes that way - it is useless IMO, for conditioning - so it is better replaced with chamomile tea for example which can and has been reported to help with cinnamon irritation.

Darker honeys were reported in honey research I read, to have higher peroxide values if they were blends of honeys.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

First - thank you for clearing up what you meant by tab.

Yes - conditioner can be an important variable - it can contain problematic ingredients and depending on the water content - interfere with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution.

As I have said, diluted enough to to come close to the dilution - it has been reported to yield better results in the honey lightening recipes that way - it is useless IMO, for conditioning - so it is better replaced with chamomile tea for example which can and has been reported to help with cinnamon irritation.

Darker honeys were reported in honey research I read, to have higher peroxide values if they were blends of honeys.
Thanks and your welcome about the tab. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Is tab an Australian/Tasmanian expression or one all of your own?

I think it is very cool.

[Palms]

hi!
i had 2 more honey treatments this month, the first with VO5 fade defy conditioner and diluted honey, and the other with chamomile tea, olive oil and cardamom.
the first method my hair felt and smelt great and i could see actual lightened color.. i left it for over 5 hours..
the second way, i applied it on dry hair, i added 2 tbs cardamom to 2 cups chamomile tea and about 2 tbs olive oil -not vergin - i boiled the chamomile tea and probably the cardamom for a moment.. my hair felt great i could see much less reddish tone and a little lightening effect-but not as light as the previous method.. i covered it and kept it for over 2 hours .. i know i did smth wrong with the cardamom! i just didn't understand how to use it!!! can you explain exactly how to use it?!! i have just understood that it is not good to boil it, so how will we benefit from it? shall i let's say soak it in the chamomile tea or what? and finally is it a permanent or temporal result?

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Is tab an Australian/Tasmanian expression or one all of your own?

I think it is very cool.

Thanks. You know I have been writing that for so long that I am not sure where I learned it , I assume it's widespread over here. :shrug:

[ktani]

hi!
i had 2 more honey treatments this month, the first with VO5 fade defy conditioner and diluted honey, and the other with chamomile tea, olive oil and cardamom.
the first method my hair felt and smelt great and i could see actual lightened color.. i left it for over 5 hours..
the second way, i applied it on dry hair, i added 2 tbs cardamom to 2 cups chamomile tea and about 2 tbs olive oil -not vergin - i boiled the chamomile tea and probably the cardamom for a moment.. my hair felt great i could see much less reddish tone and a little lightening effect-but not as light as the previous method.. i covered it and kept it for over 2 hours .. i know i did smth wrong with the cardamom! i just didn't understand how to use it!!! can you explain exactly how to use it?!! i have just understood that it is not good to boil it, so how will we benefit from it? shall i let's say soak it in the chamomile tea or what? and finally is it a permanent or temporal result?

Palms

I am glad to read that the honey and conditioner worked for you.

That means that your honey is fine.

For the tea version - it is very simple.

Brew the tea first - 1 cup for example - and let it cool to room temperature.

When the tea has cooled - not before - you can add the honey - in this case - 1/4 cup and 1-2 talblespoons of cardamom and about 1 tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil.

Mix it all together well and that is the preparation - done.

Apply the mix with a tint or blush brush - cover your hair and let the treatment stay on your hair for 1 hour or a bit more - that is all you should need.

The dilution is 4 parts water or tea to 1 part honey.

The minimum amount of honey to be used is 1/8th cup - so you will need 1/2 cup tea to 1/8th cup honey should you want to use less. The spice and oil amount - you sould not need more cardamom IMO than 2 tablespoons - the oil 1 tablespoon.

With cardamom like cinnamon - caution is advised at first - that is why I suggest patch testing.

EVOO can be difficult to wash out of the hair - for that - try 1 tablespoon only and see.

Nothing should be added to the tea until it has completely cooled.

The water version - room temperature water only - same amounts.

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Thanks

I am not sure where all of the expression I use come from - I am constantly looking them up though - out of curiosity - since I have used them here often and this is an international forum - it has been an interesting education for me.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Thanks

I am not sure where all of the expression I use come from - I am constantly looking them up though - out of curiosity - since I have used them here often and this is an international forum - it has been an interesting education for me.
It's funny isn't it half the time we have no idea where we picked up some of the things we say ? Some may even come from within our own family. I have picked up some little sayings from my kids that I call "kids speak" as I wouldn't say them outside the family. :) People might look at me weirdly if I did. :silly:

[ktani]

I have always said - no external heat with honey lightening.

That came from the research on honey and heat having a negative effect on the enzyme that produces the hydrogen peroxide and the peroxide itself.

I had no idea just how fragile hydrogen peroxide itself is to heat until recently.

It never occured to me that replacing the conditioner with tea would confuse people on the no heat issue.

I apologize for not making that more clear.

When the link that made the 4 parts water to 1 part honey clear to me stated that the water must not be heated for the honey - I did not think that it was necessary to state that - I thought that it was understood.

Just think of the herbal tea or water as replacing conditioner and use it at room temperature only before adding the rest of the recipe ingredients.

[ktani]

Alley Cat

It is funny - kids pick up expressions from their books, TV, movies and their friends - often without having a clue what they mean - at first - I bet many of the expressions they use are out there somewhere.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

It is funny - kids pick up expressions from their books, TV, movies and their friends - often without having a clue what they mean - at first - I bet many of the expressions they use are out there somewhere.

Some of them , maybe not the more babyish ones. My kids are 5 and 7. ;)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

True - that is their attempt to grasp the language - it is fun though - they are creating and have created their own version.

[ktani]

The spice boosters and the oils are ingredients with extra peroxide to boost honey lightening.

I do not recommend that any heat be applied to any peroxide containing ingredients at any point - you are working against yourself with the recipes when you do that IMO, and from the reported results.

The herbal tea or water is what dilutes the honey, is the base of the recipe, and should always be room temperature, before the peroxide containing ingredients are added to it.

Boiled water is necessary for the herbs like chamomile and mullein - to extract from them what you need quickly. I have also read that very hot water works too.

Regardless of the herbal contributions - the herbs are not peroxide producing ingredients and if they were - boiled or very hot water would take care of that in any case by reducing the amount or destroying it.

If you want to go heat free for the herbal tea - steep the herbs - not the spices in room temperature water overnight - same proportions - 1 tablespoon each to 1 cup or 1/2 tablespoon each to 1/2 cup of water.

You would have to top up the water in the morning to compensate for evaporation unless you covered the container - which is preferable with flower and leaf herbs.

It is another method of extracting constituents from herbs that I have read about from a reliable source IMO - but takes much longer than using boiled or very hot water.

[ktani]

Most important to me is the fact that there is scientific research that supports the results reported in all of the Honey threads to date, that honey lightening is not damaging to hair.

The recipe ingredients that contain peroxide, starting with honey, all contain constituents that have been clinically shown to protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage. IMO, as I have said - this extends to hair.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=123822&postcount=974

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124613&postcount=991

From past honey lightening recipes, tomato, a peroxide booster now not recommended because of its Vitamin C content - also contains these protective constituents.

“Tomatoes and tomato-based products contained primarily quercetin …. and…. myricetin.”
http://www.us.edu.pl/uniwersytet/jednostki/wydzialy/chemia/acta/ac13/zrodla/16_AC13.pdf

Hibiscus or roselle, also now not recommended for honey lightening because of Vitamin C - contains quercetin.

“…. flowers of Roselle …. contain quercetin …. “
http://www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/html/r/roselle.htm



While the amounts of these constituents may vary and the honey lightening peroxide containing ingredients do not necessarily contain all of the protective constituents named in the research, the reported results in the Honey threads have been consistent - honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage.

[ktani]

This is not specific to honey lightening but it is by the same authors on the specific flavonoids that are also found in honey, the spices and EVOO.

"Experimental evidence suggests .... most herbs and spices possess .... wide range of biological and pharmacological activities .... may protect tissues against H2O2-induced damage."
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/abstract.00002375-200702000-00014.htm;jsessionid=L6WWwPxnshRrQYgF4TVjfl2VF9kJm Vn1nmky7LLhGhfGJJ8NJFTY!-1539859368!181195628!8091!-1 (http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/abstract.00002375-200702000-00014.htm;jsessionid=L6WWwPxnshRrQYgF4TVjfl2VF9kJm Vn1nmky7LLhGhfGJJ8NJFTY!-1539859368!181195628!8091!-1)

It looks like my theory is not only not original - it is being researched vigorously from a different approach. The plants in this study do not produce hydrogen peroxide except in minimal amounts.

Various herbal teas and their hydrogen peroxide production are discussed here.

"Herbal teas .... popular because .... antioxidative activity. .... antioxidative activity comes mainly from polyphenols, Levels of H2O2 in the teas .... examined, since the production of H2O2 in beverages such as coffee and green tea, has been reported. Only a small amount of H2O2 was detected in the herbal teas ... after their preparation with hot water. .... H2O2 was gradually produced during incubation at 25 °C after extraction with hot water .... when the teas were incubated in phosphate buffer at pH 7.4."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-4M63RWS-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=11edbfbdf1ccc1cdd2f918eccbe01105

An encore of this post to add a note. I put the specific text in bold.

The fact that herbal teas contain only small amounts of peroxide makes sense to me - heat and hydrogen peroxide do not play well together (aside from other constitutents like possible Vitamin C) and coffee does contain hydrogen peroxide.

[kimki]

I was going to do another treatment, but I have a sore scalp. :( I'm not sure why, I think it might be a little sunburn or something. I figured it was best to leave it well alone.

[ktani]

kimki

I completely agree.

Are you sure it is not something else - a reaction to cardamom?

How long since your last treatment?

Has your scalp been sore before today?

[kimki]

Wednesday during the day was my last treatment. Scalp felt alright during the evening. But when I woke up this morning my scalp was a bit puffy, itchy and red in places. Very strange.

[ktani]

kimki

Not necessarily - that could be an allergic reaction.

What did you do in between then and now - you mentioned sunburn - were you out in the sun with your head/scalp unprotected?

In any case, I do not recommend another treatment until your scalp is better.

Had you patch tested cardamom? - even if you did - I suggest patch testing it again.

[kimki]

I did go out in the sun, but it didn't seem all that intense. Maybe the sun trigger something? I'm not sure. Some sort of reaction maybe.

I did patch test the cardamon, I guess will try another patch test when my scalp improves.

[ktani]

kimki

I have gotten sunburn without realizing how strong the sun was at the time.

Photosensitizers are not supposed to cause reactions washed out as far as I know.

I went back to your post - you washed/rinsed out the treatment?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=125311&postcount=999

I am not clear on that.

I see no references to cardamom being a photosensitizer
http://www.draligus.net/4069-cardamom-elettaria-cardamomum.html

"limonene is a photosensitizer." but it is only one constituent of cardamom and it is not present in a large amount

"In the oil were found α-terpineol 45%, myrcene 27%, limonene 8%, menthone 6%, β-phellandrene 3%, 1,8-cineol 2%, sabinene 2% and heptane 2%. ....
Other sources .... 1,8-cineol (20 to 50%), α-terpenylacetate (30%), sabinene, limonene (2 to 14%) and borneol."
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Elet_car.html

I am so sorry that you are going through this - I do not think that it is serious but definitely keep an eye on it.

[kimki]

ktani thank you for that.

Sorry for the confusion. I shampoo'd out the treatment. Then did a vinegar rinse.

It is actually worse today, and I can feel my forehead is a little swollen. It's not incredibly sore, just uncomfortable and a itchy. I think I will have to get it checked out by the doc.

[ktani]

kimki

No worries on the confusion.

I agree - see a doctor.

If you shampooed the treatment out, IMO it should not be a photosensitive reaction.

Since it is just itchy now, from my experience with a sensitive scalp - it is healing. I never had local swelling though.

I am glad to read that the pain has subsided, at least.

My experiences and opinions on the subject of scalp sensitivity and reactions are not what you need now though - good professional medical advice is warranted.

[ktani]

kimki

Considering your sensitized scalp right now and the fact that both cinnamon and cardamom can be irritants, when and only when your scalp is healed, consider this.

Both mellie and nayver had excellent results with Mellie's Mix - mellie most recently on layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - nayver on naturally black hair.

mellie's latest results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

nayver's results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

Mellie's Mix
1 cup of water, 1 tablespoon each of Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), mullein to 1/4 cup honey.

Brew the herbal tea, let cool to room temperature - add the honey.

I suggest that because of your scalp being sensitized, regardless of the cause - as I said - only when you are fully recovered - that you patch test the mullein first - just in case.

This recipe may be all you need.

[lynnala]

For any of you who remember, I posted here maybe a month ago, saying that my hair seemed to be getting darker, and I was wondering if it could be the honey rinse I was using. After finding out exactly what I was using on my hair, which included honey and orange juice rinses, ktani figured out that it was probably the castor oil in my CV shampoo bars! I have since stopped using the honey and orange juice rinses, I use CV bars only, and my hair is definitely getting darker. Here is a link to the shampoo bar thread where I posted about it:http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=128642&postcount=657 Thanks ktani!!:applause:

[ktani]

lynnala

Thank you!

I did not think that it was the honey because there had been no other reports of even dark coloured honeys depositing colour and I was monitoring reports in Honey for that. A number of people have asked if honey could do that.

I had posted in this thread that people should watch for that possibility. No reports came in.

When I asked you questions, and you and I went through what you were using, you told me that you had stopped the honey and orange juice rinses, that you had just continued with the shampoo bars and that your hair was still getting darker.

Then I researched castor oil and went to Ida's website - it all made sense to me.

Ida states on her website, that she uses more castor oil in the shampoo bars than the soap bars.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=84607&postcount=441



Castor oil is known to darken hair.

There have been reports about this on the net - even on LHC, recently. I took note and saved the post links.

See the last paragraph here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124839&postcount=19 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124839&postcount=19)

and then there is this post with more details.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=125850&postcount=21 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=125850&postcount=21)



It all fit together, but I was waiting to hear back from you - just to be sure about how much castor oil could darken hair.

[ktani]

lynnala

One piece of informtion is still missing.

Please state which CV bars that you have been using - from the start of the darkening until now - and how many times that you have used each.

[lynnala]

lynnala

One piece of informtion is still missing.

Please state which CV bars that you have been using - from the start of the darkening until now - and how many times that you have used each.Let's see, I started with the nettle, I only used it a couple of times, and did notice slight darkening. Then started with the olive oil/babassu, I used that about 4 times and kept noticing the same slight darkening effect. Then I started using the Cafe Moreno, which has castor oil, coffee and rosemary. I've used that about 6 times now, and I've noticed the darkening effect drastically since using that bar.

[ktani]

Let's see, I started with the nettle, I only used it a couple of times, and did notice slight darkening. Then started with the olive oil/babassu, I used that about 4 times and kept noticing the same slight darkening effect. Then I started using the Cafe Moreno, which has castor oil, coffee and rosemary. I've used that about 6 times now, and I've noticed the darkening effect drastically since using that bar.

lynnala

Thank you

Coffee actually contains peroxide - it depends on how Ida prepares it for the bars (heat destroys or depletes hydrogen peroxide) - in any case, it has not been reported to darken hair all that much except in coffee glosses - with conditioner - over time.

Here is the coffee thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=1557

Rosemary is also known to darken hair.

I think that it is the combination of all 3 that is doing the major darkening on your hair, with castor oil taking the lead.

I think that the colour effect that it gives is cumulative.

I am not discounting the coffe stain or the rosemary - it is just that without the coffee or rosemary - your hair was already starting to darken.

[lynnala]

lynnala

Thank you

Coffee actually contains peroxide - it depends on how Ida prepares it for the bars (heat destroys or depletes hydrogen peroxide) - in any case, it has not been reported to darken hair all that much except in coffee glosses - with conditioner - over time.

Here is the coffee thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=1557

Rosemary is also known to darken hair.

I think that it is the combination of all 3 that is doing the major darkening on your hair, with castor oil taking the lead.

I think that the colour effect that it gives is cumulative.

I am not discounting the coffe stain or the rosemary - it is just that without the coffee or rosemary - your hair was already starting to darken.That's what I think too, that the combo of the three make this particular bar show more effect, unless it's just the cumulative effect of using all the bars over the time. Hey, there's a test for my newly clipped hair ends, I can soak them with separate shampoo bars and see if there is any difference! (I just did a 1 1/2 inch trim). Oh, on her site Ida says she uses triple-strength brewed coffee in the bars, and I forgot, there are also the cloves, are they known for any color effects?

[ktani]

That's what I think too, that the combo of the three make this particular bar show more effect, unless it's just the cumulative effect of using all the bars over the time. Hey, there's a test for my newly clipped hair ends, I can soak them with separate shampoo bars and see if there is any difference! (I just did a 1 1/2 inch trim). Oh, on her site Ida says she uses triple-strength brewed coffee in the bars, and I forgot, there are also the cloves, are they known for any color effects?

lynnala

If Ida is brewing the coffee - that will deplete or destroy its peroxide content.

Triple brewed coffee will yield more stain. Soaking your ends in different shampoo bar solutions is a grea idea - however IMO, since the effect of castor oil is cumulative - that would need to be repeated.

I found no referencess to clove used as hair dye other than unreferenced articles on the net - I did a quick search - but it is an irritant and it has a low peroxide value compared to other spices. I do not recommemd it for hair colouring in any real quantity, especially after the reports of spice irritation from cinnamon and cardamom for some people.

In the quantities Ida is no doubt using - IMO - it is just fine.

"Excessive application .... undiluted clove oil on or near the teeth .... damage to dental pulp and irritation or damage to the gums and mouth. .... used for tooth and gum conditions only under the supervision of a dentist. Undiluted clove oil .... cause skin irritation, rashes, or even burns."
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Cloves.asp?sitearea=ETO

POV - Peroxide value of spices
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8...Ot2tkeW4&hl=en (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en)

[ktani]

More on clove - it is not something I recommend to start adding to a hair recipe without first thoroughly reading accredited sources on its safety.


"Side Effects

Clove .... well tolerated in studies .... is generally recognized as safe for use in foods. Some people .... experience skin irritation or painful sensations from clove. This .... lead to a rash; hives; burning; irritation; dry, peeling lips; blanching; chemical burns; lack of feeling; and sweating on skin exposed to clove."
http://www.ih1.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/8513/31402/351409.html?d=dmtContent




"Toxicology

Clove and clove oils .... used safely in foods, beverages, and toothpastes. .... the level of clove used in foods does not exceed 0.24%; the oil is not used in amounts greater than 0.06%. .... the toxicity of the compound increases almost 200-fold when administered .... Increased toxicity by the pulmonary route .... in light of the toxicity reported among people who have smoked clove cigarettes"
http://www.drugs.com/npp/clove.html


"Cytotoxicity of clove (Syzygium aromaticum) oil and its major components to human skin cells.
.... essential oil extracted from clove (Syzygium aromaticum) is used as a topical application to relieve pain .... promote healing in herbal medicine .... use in the fragrance and flavouring industries. Clove oil has two major components, eugenol and beta-caryophyllene .... 78% and 13% of the oil .... Clove oil and these components .... generally recognized as 'safe', but the in-vitro study .... demonstrates cytotoxic properties of both the oil and eugenol, towards human fibroblasts and endothelial cells. Clove oil .... found to be highly cytotoxic at concentrations as low as 0.03% (v/v) with up to 73% of this effect attributable to eugenol. .... indicating that other cytotoxic components .... exist within the parent oil."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16872360

[kimki]

Thank you ktani. Apologies for the delayed response. It has been a nightmare trying to get on here as we all know.

The swelling on my scalp has gone down now, although it still feels a little tight and sore. I saw the doctor and he thought it looked like an allergic reaction to something. It was strange actually, the first time I used the cardamon I didnt mind the smell at all. The second time (when my scalp swelled the next day) the smell made me feel pretty sick.

So I think the next step is to patch test the recipe you suggest, will let you know how I get on.

Thanks again

[ktani]

kimki

I am so glad to read that you are better and that you saw a doctor - which you said that you had planned to do.

I believe that everyone is allergic to something - even if they have yet to encounter it.

No apologies necessary for the delay at all.

The "server is busy" issue has been challenging.

Considering what happened - I suggest that you patch test each ingredient in Mellie's Mix - you could be even be allergic to chamomile, used topically.

[kimki]

Thank you ktani, yes the server problem is a bit of a nightmare!

Looking at the recipe I realised, I don't know what mullein is?

[ktani]

kimki

No worries - I keep a post index as well as a research stash.

I have read about mullein, Verbascum thapsus, being used for hair lightening.

Here is the Wiki information See "Uses"
"Great Mullein has been used ... as a remedy for skin, throat and breathing ailments. .... It contains mucilage, several saponins, coumarin and glycosides. ... Non-medical uses have included dyeing ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbascum_thapsus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbascum_thapsus)

and here is the Plants For a Future database link, that also refers to its dye use, stating that to yield a yellow dye, the flowers must be boiled and that an infusion of the flowers can be used to dye hair a golden shade. See "Known Hazards" and "Other Uses"
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Verbascum+thapsus

Mullein cautions - See "Other info"
http://www.missouriplants.com/Yellow...spus_page.html (http://www.missouriplants.com/Yellowalt/Verbascum_thaspus_page.html)

Mullein is generally recognized as safe - See "Safety Issues"
http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21821

If all else fails, you can just use 4 parts water to a good honey (one with a decent peroxide level) and a good extra virgin olive oil (one that is EVOO and not an EVOO olive oil blend)

[kimki]

That's interesting, so how do you buy it?

Do you use the flowers?

[ktani]

kimki

You can buy it in tea bags or loose from health food stores or online.

I have only seen the leaf not the flower tea.

I asked mellie which she used - she said that what she had looked like leaves.

Remember if you use a herbal tea - it should be cooled to room temperature before adding honey or the oil or spices to it.

[ktani]

mellie

Do you have more details on the mullein you use - where you buy it - how it is described where you buy it from, example - leaves or flowers, loose or tea bags, brand name?

Please.

[kimki]

kimki

You can buy it in tea bags or loose from health food stores or online.

I have only seen the leaf not the flower tea.

I asked mellie which she used - she said that what she had looked like leaves.

Remember if you use a herbal tea - it should be cooled to room temperature before adding honey or the oil or spices to it.


Ok, thank you.I will have a look. :)

[ktani]

kimki

I just did a shout out to mellie for more possible details on the mullein she uses.

mellie is always very helpful.

[ktani]

kimki

Mullein is actually sold both ways - leaf tea and flower tea - as well as loose and in tea bags.

"Mullein Flower Tea (Loose)" 8 oz is a lot (you only need 1 tablespoon at a time) - you can probably buy it in bulk at a lower price than this.
http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questp511380 (http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questp511380)

"Mullein leaf tea" - tea bags
http://health-beauty.pricegrabber.com/dietary-weight-loss/m/16091418/

"A yellow dye is obtained from the flowers by boiling them in water ..... used with dilute sulphuric acid .... produce a rather permanent green dye, this becomes brown with the addition of alkalis .... infusion of the flowers is .... used to dye the hair a golden colour ...."
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Verbascum+thapsus

With honey lightening - IMO - you do not want to add a golden colour to the hair but that can happen with chamomile tea as well. For lighter hair colours - that could be a problem.

[ktani]

Rethinking my recommendation of using chamomile and mullein flower tea for honey lightening.

Mullein leaves are not known to yield dye.

For blonde and light coloured hair, room temperature water may be preferable to herbal teas.

With the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, less spice can be used. This may be a better option than possibly adding a gold tone to the hair, which these teas can do.

IMO, that is what happened here when a strong chamomile tea was used in the recipe.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122501&postcount=952

The recipe included 3 tea bags of chamomile to 1 cup of water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120907&postcount=924

My response at the time.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122924&postcount=965

[mellie]

I use mullein leaves (cut, not powder) that I got in bulk from my local herb store. I believe the store gets it from www.mountainroseherbs.com.

The reason that I added it was because my herb book said that it "brightens" hair.

[ktani]

mellie

Thank you.

[kimki]

Thank you both for the useful info. Maybe I should give it a go.

When my natural hair colour grows out it is dark blonde, maybe golden tones will look nice?

[ktani]

kimki

From my own experience - German chamomile - Matricaria chamomilla - can yield a golden yellow stain but a weak tea does not yield much stain.

bunnyears at one point used 3 chamomile tea bags to 1 cup of water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120907&postcount=924

Roman chamomile - Anthemis nobilis - is the one traditionally used to lighten hair - I have never tried it.

[kimki]

Ok thats good to know.

I think I'm going to leave it for a while until my scalp is back to normal. ac

[ktani]

kimki

I do not recommend any honey lightening treatments for you until your scalp is fully recovered and then - take it slowly and patch test anything that you have never used on your scalp and skin first.

[kimki]

kimki

I do not recommend any honey lightening treatments for you until your scalp is fully recovered and then - take it slowly and patch test anything that you have never used on your scalp and skin first.

Will do. :) Thank you for your help, I'll let you know how I get on.

[ktani]

kimki

You are most welcome.

Yes, please do update and let me know how your scalp is doing - the honey lightening can wait.

[ktani]

Even though there have not been any reports of problems with mullein leaves - I am pointing this out.

See "Known Hazards"
"Hairs on the leaves can act as an irritant...."
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/...bascum+thapsus (http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Verbasc
um+thapsus)

[ktani]

I have used chamomile tea - German chamomile - with no problems - getting it my eyes caused temporary redness and itching though a few times.

I soak in catnip when I use it on my hair and get it in my eyes all the time - never a problem of any kind. In fact I have read that it is recommended as an eye wash. I have read the same thing about chamomile tea.

I had a small irritation in the corner my eye - on the eyelid - cold catnip relieved it.

I never patch tested catnip before I started using it or chamomile.

I recommended catnip to someone in a previous Honey thread - they sprayed catnip on their hair and they broke out in an itchy rash on their neck - you never know.

That is why patch testing first makes sense - you just never know.

[kimki]

It's true, you do never know. I think it can depend on circumstances as well. Some medication and illness's can cause sensitivity.

[ktani]

kimki

The worst scalp sensitivites I have had are from conventional conditioners and a few shampoos.

I can now - from researching, reading labels and reading a cosmetic dictionary - spot what I need to avoid - I do not react to products without certain ingredients.

Still, new ingredients are being put into products.

And I have reacted to plant ingredients in natural products too.

Being all natural is no guarantee of avoiding allergies or sensitivites.

Food allergies are very common.

I prefer the all or close to all natural route for myself - with compromises - I use a conventional shampoo.

But I am realistic - caution is advisable in general with new products of any kind - and research, IMO.

Learn about what you are using on you hair and skin and be as discriminating about your sources of information as you are about the products you chooose. Make sure the sources are well referenced.

[kimki]

Thank you ktani. I am working on moving to a more natural way of living. Not just want I put on my hair and skin, but I would like to go on a raw diet as well. All the additives, chemicals and rubbish that is but in everything...can't be good for us!

[ktani]

kimki

True - however, there are many chemicals in natural plants that are not good for us too.

Arsenic is all natural - so is cyanide.

Juglone in walnut hulls is toxic and there are others.

Comfrey and coltsfoot contain pyrrolizidine alkaloids - the list goes on.

[kimki]

Your right, that's very true. Careful research is needed.

[ktani]

kimki

The good thing is - the research is there - available - free - online and elsewhere - it just requires looking for it.

[ktani]

Take note of this thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=5958

Kudos to ChloeDharma!

[ktani]

Regardless of what else is added to honey lightening recipes IMO, the 4 parts water to 1 honey dilution is the single most important factor for the current reports of better honey lightening results.

The second most important factor IMO - no Vitamin C content ingredients - except for cardamom.

The third most important factor - a decent honey - one that yields a good peroxide level - without that there can be no lightening IMO - but previous reported results have vastly improved with the new dilution (except for Mellie's Mix - which always had the dilution and reported results with it have been consistently excellent).

I just did not know why Mellie's Mix worked so well, until I found and read that link on testing honey for its peroxide level.

And the fourth most important factor IMO - no conditioner in the mix.

[ktani]

While herbal tea (cooled before adding the other recipe ingredients), is an option for honey lightening - Roman chamomile and mullein - I am not sure if Roman chamomile might stain lighter hair, I do not recommend regular or green tea.

Aside from the fact that tea is known to stain and can stain hair - it also contains Vitamin C.

“…. study by du Toit et al, showed that Black, Green and Oolong tea are all extremely good sources of vitamin C. …. 1 or 2 cups a day provide the equivalent of three glasses of orange juice or two capsules (200mg) of vitamin C.”
http://www.biodiversityexplorer.org/plants/theaceae/camellia_sinensis.htm (http://www.biodiversityexplorer.org/plants/theaceae/camellia_sinensis.htm)

The study
".... results show that one or two cups of tea would provide a similar amount of .... or 400 mg vitamin C equivalents. This would be comparable to two capsules (200 mg) of vitamin C. Caution is advised in extrapolating these in vitro results to humans due to bioavailability."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCN-43RYXBD-9&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=65587373f8d5852555d3ff7db9da70f7

I left in the last sentence on bioavailability - how much of the Vitamin C would actually be available to be absorbed by the human body.

Definition
"The degree to which or rate at which a drug or other substance is absorbed or becomes available at the site of physiological activity after administration."
http://www.answers.com/topic/bioavailability?cat=health

Regardless of that - the Vitamin C content makes tea not an option for honey lightening, IMO.

[ktani]

A slight honey lightening departure.

Regular tea and coffee rinses have been reported to be drying to the hair.

In my research on tea and Vitamin C, I came across possible explanations as to why regular tea rinses might be drying to the hair - its resin content - among other things - that IMO, can build-up on hair and or interfere with other products.

Tea - Camellia sinensis - chemistry
"Tea polyphenols also have high .... affinity to ..... carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids.
Herbal teas, which contain various known or unknown components .... quite different from tea (Camellia sinensis) ...."
http://www.teatalk.com/science/chemistry.htm (http://www.teatalk.com/science/chemistry.htm)

"A good amount of tea is placed in the pot with tweezers .... along with the cups it is washed in special bowls already filled with hot tea. This "seals" the cups with the tea's resins."
http://www.btmbeijing.com/contents/en/btm/2002-09/teaspecial/Tea (http://www.btmbeijing.com/contents/en/btm/2002-09/teaspecial/Tea)

Camellia sinensis - tea
"Constituents --.... aqueous extract, protein wax, resin, ash and theophylline."
http://www.inpursuitoftea.com/category_s/46.htm (http://www.inpursuitoftea.com/category_s/46.htm)

[ktani]

This is very interesting, IMO.

"APIMEDICA Presentation: Honey and Helicobacter Pylori - 2006

* Honey varieties higher in hydrogen peroxide content .... more effective in killing Helicobacter pylori .... compared to honey varieties with lower levels of hydrogen peroxide.

* Thyme honey, with its low pH and high osmolarity .... most effective in eliminating in vitro Helicobacter pylori."
http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2006/10/apimedica-presentation-honey-and.html

Osmolarity definition
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/osmolality (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/osmolality)

Thyme honey, because of its Vitamin C content, has a lower peroxide value than other honeys, so it is not recommendd for honey lightening but it has been shown to be effective against H. - the other named factors - its acidity and osmolarity obviously have great significance.


I am getting better at understanding some of the more complicated aspects of the research - I am right.

"Osmotic effect of honey on growth and viability of Helicobacter pylori
Honey from New Zealand and Saudi Arabia at concentrations .... 20% (v/v) inhibit the growth of H. pylori in vitro. .... anti-H. pylori effect involves both hydrogen peroxide- and non-peroxide-mediated killing mechanisms.
Osmotic effects .... shown to be the most important parameter for killing H. pylori .... inhibited 100% of the H. pylori."
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1718741

[ktani]

Something interesting in this link

"* Ulcers can be treated at a low cost by thyme honey .... difficult to maintain a high concentration of honey at the gastric mucosa .... extended periods."
http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2006/10/apimedica-presentation-honey-and.html

may have and answer from this link

"UMF Active Manuka to treat H. pylori
Research .... by world honey expert Dr Peter Molan .... Waikato University Honey Research Centre .... good results ....
eating 20g (a heaped teaspoon) of Active Manuka Honey on a small square of bread one hour before meals .... (The bread was added to ensure the honey stayed in the stomach for longer periods)"
http://www.honeybalm.com/article/36

[ktani]

I realize that I have hijacked this thread away from honey lightening on this page but I know of at least 2 people with H. pylori.

While honey is not a guarateed cure at this point - the standard treatment currently is various strong antibiotic cocktails which can require experimentation to get right - I do not think honey can hurt and from the research it may be very helpful.

I am not in any way suggesting that honey should be used to replace standard conventional medical therapy.

Always consult your doctor before attempting to self medicate, IMO.

Thyme honey can be purchased here for as little as $12 USD, as well as in food stores.
http://www.artisansweets.com/category/s

They ship internationally.
http://www.artisansweets.com/customer_service (http://www.artisansweets.com/customer_service)

and it is cheaper than UMF manuka honey, which is the only one guaranteed by New Zealand, to have the Unique Manuka Factor.

UMF Manuka honey can be purchased at health food stores or ordered online.

In Toronto, thyme honey can be purchased at

Greek House Food Market
565 DANFORTH AVE, TORONTO, ON M4K 1P9
in between Fenwick & Carlaw
(Cross Street: Carlaw AVE and Danforth AVE)
Phone: 416-469-1466 Thyme honey in jars, $13.99 ea

[Alley Cat]

Can I ask a question ktani? I know you are not recommending conditioner anymore but just water , but did the conditioner and honey treatments still lighten hair at all in those who were doing those treatments earlier on?:ponder:
I was wondering who did just that and did get lightening before water was known to be better?
I will probably still do some more water and honey treatments with the other additives, but I am wondering also about the occasional honey and conditioner treatment even without the additional additives just as a treatment . Would you still get gradual lightening doing that as well. I like the feel of my hair after a honey and conditioner treatment more than a honey and water treatment and it's easier to apply. :shrug:

[ktani]

Can I ask a question ktani? I know you are not recommending conditioner anymore but just water , but did the conditioner and honey treatments still lighten hair at all in those who were doing those treatments earlier on?:ponder:
I was wondering who did just that and did get lightening before water was known to be better?
I will probably still do some more water and honey treatments with the other additives, but I am wondering also about the occasional honey and conditioner treatment even without the additional additives just as a treatment . Would you still get gradual lightening doing that as well. I like the feel of my hair after a honey and conditioner treatment more than a honey and water treatment and it's easier to apply. :shrug:

Alley Cat

The answer to your question is yes.

Honey and conditioner was reported to lighten hair.

However, the more the conditioner was diluted - more lightening was reported.

Here is an example of a report - going from all conditioner to 1/2 water 1/2 conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

And here is an example of a report - going from using conditioner previously to no conditioner and finally getting results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

The 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution works best IMO and in only 1 hour.

It may be more difficult to apply and get used to but again IMO, the results are worth it.

If you like the feeling of conditioner - try using conditioner only to wash the treatment out of your hair.

Conditioners can be problematic in the honey lightening recipes because of 2 reasons.

1. They can contain ingredients that interfere with the lightening.

2. Depending on their water content - they can shorten the supply of the water needed to reach the 4 parts water level.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

The answer to your question is yes.

Honey and conditioner was reported to lighten hair.

However, the more the conditioner was diluted - more lightening was reported.

Here is an example of a report - going from all conditioner to 1/2 water 1/2 conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

And here is an example of a report - going from using conditioner previously to no conditioner and finally getting results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120769&postcount=916

The 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution works best IMO and in only 1 hour.

It may be more difficult to apply and get used to but again IMO, the results are worth it.

If you like the feeling of conditioner - try using conditioner only to wash the treatment out of your hair.

Conditioners can be problematic in the honey lightening recipes because of 2 reasons.

1. They can contain ingredients that interfere with the lightening.

2. Depending on their water content - they can shorten the supply of the water needed to reach the 4 parts water level.
Thanks ktani :flowers:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

You are most welcome.

[ktani]

GlennaGirl's previous results - honey lightening with conditioner and the 4 to 1 dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653


GlennaGirl's new signature picture details.

She did a water-only (no conditioner) treatment using honey and cinnamon - the 4 to 1 dilution.

and a cardamom treatment, using 1/2 cup water and 1/2 cup conditioner, 1/4 cup honey and the cardamom.

Hair hennaed - after her latest 2 honey lightening treatments - unfortunately she had a temporary reaction to the cardamom.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6)


GlennaGirl's new thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=6111

[ktani]

Most important to me is the fact that there is scientific research that supports the results reported in all of the Honey threads to date, that honey lightening is not damaging to hair.

The recipe ingredients that contain peroxide, starting with honey, all contain constituents that have been clinically shown to protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage. IMO, as I have said - this extends to hair.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=123493&postcount=969

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=123822&postcount=974

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124613&postcount=991



From past honey lightening recipes, tomato, a peroxide booster now not recommended because of its Vitamin C content - also contains these protective constituents.

“Tomatoes and tomato-based products contained primarily quercetin …. and…. myricetin.”
http://www.us.edu.pl/uniwersytet/jednostki/wydzialy/chemia/acta/ac13/zrodla/16_AC13.pdf

Hibiscus or roselle, also now not recommended for honey lightening because of Vitamin C - contains quercetin.

“…. flowers of Roselle …. contain quercetin …. “
http://www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/html/r/roselle.htm



While the amounts of these constituents may vary and the honey lightening peroxide containing ingredients do not necessarily contain all of the protective constituents named in the research, the reported results in the Honey threads have been consistent - honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage.


An encore of the latest honey lightening news.

[ktani]

A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

The following method I designed is based on my analyzing accredited research I read and the reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html). 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. Another way to use the new dilution is to just use tablespoons, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc. It works out to be the same as calculating by weight.

According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin).
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369) is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173).

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil. Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons. Information on ground cinnamon can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314). Information on ground cardamom can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373). Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon. None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883) (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Store (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452) your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90% water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out. If there is honey residue, shampoo is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of some types of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. An updated post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712) of honey lightening innovations. Using a towel moist enough to keep hair wet has also been reported to work well and reduce drips.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035).

12. This (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906)is a Pictures Post of some honey lightening results, using the new dilution.

[morgwn]

Apologies for not posting this sooner, but I was totally tied up and couldn't take an 'after' photo until yesterday. I did run through the 2-hour cassia-honey treatment which firebird did. It does seem to have worked now that I'm comparing the photos:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13975http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13975http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13975 http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13977http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13977http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=1185&pictureid=13977
Before and After

The before photo is taken right after my hair had come down from an updo, it's all out of shape and the after photo is taken right after my hair was dry after showering yesterday, so it's looking a bit 'unkept'. :o

Lately I do have a reddish tinge coming back into my hair that used to be there when I was younger, but that seems to show up when my hair lightens up naturally. It's just that I've gotten both sunshine and honey lightening lately, so it's lightened up the brownish bits of my hair which then seem to show some strawberry blonde. :)

[ktani]

morgwn

Thank you so much for posting the pictures. No apologies are necessary.

Yes, IMO your hair is definitely lighter! The blonde parts look less gold to me as well.

Reddish tones in darker hair colours as they lighten are natural.

If you continue to lighten - they will go brown then gold then blonde.

This is the recipe firebird used and her reported results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

How is the condition of your hair?

[morgwn]

How is the condition of your hair?

It's quite soft and shiny. Although it does still have its flyaways if I don't tame them a bit, but that's always been my hair. :) However, I have noticed a difference in the thickness which I'm most happy about. The individual hairs are also stronger, which is the opposite of how my hair usually gets when it lightens from the sun alone.

[ktani]

It's quite soft and shiny. Although it does still have its flyaways if I don't tame them a bit, but that's always been my hair. :) However, I have noticed a difference in the thickness which I'm most happy about. The individual hairs are also stronger, which is the opposite of how my hair usually gets when it lightens from the sun alone.
morgwn

That result has been reported before in different forms.

Hair in better condition following honey lightening.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=82420&postcount=427

Thicker, stronger hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

and no damage to previously damaged hair following honey lightening.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=113522&postcount=717

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=113529&postcount=719

Thank you for reporting it now. I am keeping records.

Now at least I understand why honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair to date in any Honey thread - the recipe ingredients all contain constituents which have been shown clinically to protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133681&postcount=1094

IMO - this applies to hair too.

[morgwn]

Ktani, I certainly have never found my hair to be damaged by any sort of honey treatment, be it lightening or conditioning. For example, why would honey be included in hair repair recipes if it could be damaging? :)

But just to clarify, I do think that it was the cassia and honey combined that made my hair stronger and have me notice no breakage over this past week. I did a cassia treatment without honey about a month ago and I felt the same effects but not to the same extent as when I just did the cassia with honey. Hence why I feel that the two combined is the only way that I'll go in the future. :)

[ktani]

Ktani, I certainly have never found my hair to be damaged by any sort of honey treatment, be it lightening or conditioning. For example, why would honey be included in hair repair recipes if it could be damaging? :)

But just to clarify, I do think that it was the cassia and honey combined that made my hair stronger and have me notice no breakage over this past week. I did a cassia treatment without honey about a month ago and I felt the same effects but not to the same extent as when I just did the cassia with honey. Hence why I feel that the two combined is the only way that I'll go in the future. :)

morgwn

Thank you for the clarification.

It is good to know that honey lightening with cassia leaves the hair in better condition than cassia alone - the honey needs to be well diluted though to avoid cassia possibly yielding colour - and no acid like orange juice mixed in with the cassia either, which has not been allowed to sit for dye release.

I recommend premixing the cassia with water just before adding it to the honey lightening recipe.

The results that I linked in my post to you did not all include cassia - in fact firebird is the only one who used cassia in her honey lightening recipe. And the link I gave for firebird was about honey lightening in general for her - not related to her honey lightening with cassia results.

I am not suggesting that the stronger hair reported results are typical for honey lightening - I am just noting it.

The no damage reported results are consistent.

Honey only produces peroxide on dilution.

As to recipes out there suggested for hair possibly damaging hair - or containing toxic ingredients or ingredients that do not work as specified - there are many of those that I have read - recipes containing large amounts of alcohol - real alcohol - herbs and plant products that are questionable due to their toxicity - plants that do not add colour as stated, etc.

Putting lemon juice on the hair or lemon vodka and sitting out in the sun to get hi-lights are just 2 examples - let alone possibly getting skin burns or damage.

[morgwn]

morgwn

Thank you for the clarification.

It is good to know that honey lightening with cassia leaves the hair in better condition than cassia alone - the honey needs to be well diluted though to avoid cassia possibly yielding colour - and no acid like orange juice mixed in with the cassia either, which has not been allowed to sit for dye release.

I recommend premixing the cassia with water just before adding it to the honey lightening recipe.

I definitely did follow your and firebird's advice on the recipe with not using any sort of acidic liquid with the cassia; hence why I think I on;y had a bit of lightening from the honey and no added yellowish or reddish tones in my hair. I did premix the cassia with water first and then mixed it with the EVOO. I may try using the chamomile tea at some point, which you did post recently that you thought would still work with the cassia and honey if it was allowed to cool to RT first. However, I'm quite happy with the results as they now stand. :)

[ktani]

morgwn

I am glad that you are pleased with the the recipe as you used it.

Using chamomile tea in the recipe was an idea I have reconsidered as I am unsure if even Roman chamomile tea might add some colour to the hair.

In a report where a very strong chamomile tea was used with a honey lightening recipe, a gold tone was added to the hair - the type of chamomile was unspecified. From my own experience with German chamomile, chamomile tea can add a gold colour to hair- for me though, it depended on the strength of the tea used.

The idea was that chamomile tea used in a honey lightening recipe with spice would act to counter irritation.

However, with 4 parts water to 1 part honey, less spice can be used and has been reported to yield even better results than more spice used with another dilution.

For blondes, lighter hair colours and hair colours where the possibility of added colour is not wanted, I think that plain water is the way to go rather than risking added colour by using a herbal tea.

[firebird]

morgwn, I'm so glad you got good results from the mixture!

[morgwn]

morgwn, I'm so glad you got good results from the mixture!

Thanks, firebird. :) Is this something which you keep up monthy or bi-monthly?

[ktani]

I have edited this post to now include the updated Pictures Post.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

[firebird]

morgwn, yes I try to do it roughly every 2-4 weeks. It's really good to know that it's possible to do cassia with or without a darkening effect and still get the conditioning!

[morgwn]

It's really good to know that it's possible to do cassia with or without a darkening effect and still get the conditioning!

Definitely! I will be keeping up with the cassia and honey combo at least monthly for a while yet, so I hope to have more pics to post as time goes on. ;)

[ktani]

morgwn

I look forward to seeing more pictures.

[ktani]

A Comprehensive Summary of the newest honey lightening recommendations. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread.

1. The 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. With this dilution, a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour, because a honey will produce its maximum amount of peroxide in that time. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion table - See "Convert cup of honey into grams g, ounces oz or tablespoons." Use 4 times the amount of water by weight, e.g. 40 grams water to 10 grams of honey. You can also convert to ml, because 1 gram = 1 ml.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html
According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the 4 to 1 dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using the old dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List - if one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the 4 to 1 dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.

4. Herbal teas if used instead of straight distilled water - chamomile - Roman chamomile is preferable but it is possible that chamomile can add a gold tone to the hair. Mullein - leaves only not flowers - the leaves are not known to add colour. The herbal tea should be brewed with distilled water.

5. Herbal tea that is used with honey lightening needs to be cooled first to room temperature before any other ingredients are added to it. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into herbal tea, when the honey is added first.

6. For blondes, lighter hair colours, and hair colours where one does not want the possibility of added colour, distilled water is better than risking added colour by using herbal tea.

7. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

8. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients except herbal tea should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide by decomposing it to water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883

9. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

10. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

11. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening and because of its water content (most conditioners are between 70 to 90 % water), if used as part of the 4 to 1 ratio, shorten the amount of water needed for optimal honey dilution. You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinsing it out. If there is honey residue, shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

12. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

13. Cover the hair during the 1 hour needed for the treatments, with plastic, a bag, wrap or shower cap, to ensure the best results. This provides a constant moisture level, and allows the honey to produce peroxide uninterrupted. If the hair starts to dry, the honey slows its production of peroxide and it will stop producing peroxide altogether, if the hair dries completely. An option is misting the hair without the use of plastic, provided that the hair is kept wet at all times during the treatment. Honey only produces peroxide when diluted and kept wet. The treatments can be left on the hair longer than 1 hour, if so desired. You can also let a recipe sit for 1 hour before applying it, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

14. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing and or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and or vinegar are used. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035

15. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

[ktani]

I mentioned in the Comprehensive Summary, that distilled water can be used for honey lightening - See #6.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=137176&postcount=1111

That came from this research link on testing a honey for its peroxide level. See "Technical performance"
"Distilled water .... used"
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

I think that this is interesting.
"Hydrogen peroxide .... decomposes .... in contact with salts such as iron, copper, manganese, nickel, or chromium."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm



However, honey and the other peroxide containing ingredients in honey lightening recipes, contain constituents, that chelate the free iron, that activates the formation of oxygen free radicals produced by peroxide, and further act to protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=148&page=100

Successful honey lightening reports have not indicated that the water used has been an issue and no hair damage has been reported to date.

Using distilled water for honey lightening is an option IMO - but it may - unknown at this point - increase the performance of a recipe - I highly recommend trying it.



Types of purified water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water


The following website is a gem, IMO. It is authored by Stephen Lower, "a retired faculty member of the Dept of Chemistry, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby/Vancouver Canada" and is the opposite of complicated, difficult to read text. Straight-up science with a sense of humour!

"Junk science in the marketplace" on water and water treatments.

One example - "Oxygenated water nonsense
Unless you have gills, it's just an expensive burp!"
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/index.html

[flapjack]

I did a honey treatment last night. I used the same clover honey, with water, a bit of evoo, a bit of coconut oil and some ground cinnamon. Right now my hair is still drying from my shower this morning, but I'm hoping to get in some pictures before dusk.

[ktani]

flapjack

Thank you for your recipe.

Did you use the 4 parts water to 1 part honey?

I would love to know the recipe details, and the condition of your hair when dry.

I am looking forward to your pictures!

[Alley Cat]

I have done 2 more treatments the first one was like my 3rd one 1:4 honey to chamomile tea , 2 tab cinnamon and 1 tab of EVOO. The cinnamon mixed better in the bowl but I still had trouble washing it out . I am reluctant to use it again. :rolleyes:
The next day I noticed my hair needed washing as the EVOO hadn't washed out well so I decided to do just a plain water and honey treatment 1:4 ratio after shampooing again.
I am thinking of looking for cardamon when I out and about and skipping the cinnamon and for now just sticking to either water/chamomile tea and honey without the extra additives as we are on tank water and rewashing isn't ideal. :ponder:
My hair feels really nice and I think it is lightening a bit. I plan to do another treatment very soon , in fact I may do them almost every time I wash especially if it's just water and honey. :)

[flapjack]

I used 1 ounce of honey, 4 ounces of water, about 1 tsp of cinnamon, 20 drops of evoo and 10 drops of coconut oil.

I wrapped my hair in a towel and when I took it off to hop under the showerhead, it was really a goopy mess... I left it in for about two hours. I think the extra goopy feeling was caused by the evoo which I don't think I had used in a treatment before. It took a good washing to get out and I actually went back and rinsed it out a few hours later because I still had some grainies here and there from the cinnamon. Today, my hair doesn't feel any drier and there isn't any residue.


The pictures are all in my hair photo album and they're the top 6 photos (most recent) and all have "junehoney" in the title. Personally, from looking at it, I think it REALLY nailed the bottom... I don't know how many inches of my hair this time around. They look much lighter. This is amusing because I purposely used my squirtbottle again only on the top part of my hair! It must have ran down the strands under my towel. I also have a few more noticeable/larger streaks than before.


Sorry about the blob of shade in a few photos, it's late afternoon here and I was trying to find better angles with all the trees, hahaha.


I'm going to make my hair album public in a second, although Ktani should still be able to see it, I believe.


I hope everyone is having good luck with this. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I am glad to read that your hair is so soft and that you are getting lightening.

As an experiment, I mixed cinnamon and water then added honey - the honey made the solution a lot smoother but with your current water situation, 4 parts water to 1 part honey alone will be much easier.

Chamomile tea was recommended to help counter cinnamon irritation, but it may add colour to the hair and it is more time consuming - you need to wait until it is cooled to room temperture before adding the the honey, spice or oil to it.

The only other thing I can suggest trying is distilled water as the 4 parts of the recipe - it may help the honey work even better.

[ktani]

I used 1 ounce of honey, 4 ounces of water, about 1 tsp of cinnamon, 20 drops of evoo and 10 drops of coconut oil.

I wrapped my hair in a towel and when I took it off to hop under the showerhead, it was really a goopy mess... I left it in for about two hours. I think the extra goopy feeling was caused by the evoo which I don't think I had used in a treatment before. It took a good washing to get out and I actually went back and rinsed it out a few hours later because I still had some grainies here and there from the cinnamon. Today, my hair doesn't feel any drier and there isn't any residue.


The pictures are all in my hair photo album and they're the top 6 photos (most recent) and all have "junehoney" in the title. Personally, from looking at it, I think it REALLY nailed the bottom... I don't know how many inches of my hair this time around. They look much lighter. This is amusing because I purposely used my squirtbottle again only on the top part of my hair! It must have ran down the strands under my towel. I also have a few more noticeable/larger streaks than before.


Sorry about the blob of shade in a few photos, it's late afternoon here and I was trying to find better angles with all the trees, hahaha.


I'm going to make my hair album public in a second, although Ktani should still be able to see it, I believe.


I hope everyone is having good luck with this. :)

flapjack

Thank you for the recipe details - your recipe is perfect.

Was your hair wrapped in plastic under the towel?

I had a quick look and I can see your light ends in the 2 pictures on the far right.

I can also understand how the recipe would pool on your ends.

One suggestion - after you saturate your hair - pin it up - then cover with a plastic bag - it should help even things out.

[flapjack]

I have yet to use a plastic bag but I shall give it a go next time. I've been gooping up beach towels instead, hahaha.

[ktani]

flapjack

I did not realize that you were just using towels.

You have been working against yourself with the treatments.

The towel will absorb water - the water is necessary for the honey to keep producing peroxide at a constant level.

As the towel dries - the honey will slow its production of peroxide until it stops producing peroxide altogether.

The hair needs to be kept wet during the entire treatment and you only need 1 hour.

The plastic ensures that moisture level. The bag does not have to be too tight but it need to be secure - you will get less drips that way.

Your towel has been getting more water than the honey and your hair.

The towel can go on top of the plastic or around your neck to catch drips.

[flapjack]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! I fail.


Alright, trying again soon... WITH plastic and NOT a towel on the hair. Doh doh doh doh.

[ktani]

flapjack

You did get some lightening on your ends - it is not a complete failure and you got the recipe right.

You can still use the squirt bottle - just make sure that your hair is evenly saturated before you pin it up and cover it with the plastic.

A better way might be an applicator bottle or a washed out shampoo bottle (provided the opening is not too small) if you are using spice - no clogged squirt bottle nozzel.

Add the water and honey together first - then add the cinnamon and oil for a smoother solution.

A tint or blush brush will work too.

[ktani]

This has come up before in different ways - how far in advance can a honey lightening treatment be made?

Does the peroxide start to degrade after 1 hour?

People have been leaving the 4 parts water to 1 part honey treatments on their hair for 2 hours with no problems.

There is no indication that the treatment peroxide starts to degrade immediately after the maximum strength has been achieved.

I think that a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour and 1 hour has been reported to work very well.

What if - the the treatment is mixed and left it sit for 1 hour before applying it - the peroxide in the honey should be at full strength from that point on.

It may work even better than mixing and applying a treatment right away. Leave it on the hair for 1 hour only.

This has been suggested too - it is not an original idea on my part - at this point - with what has been reported so far - why not?

And if distilled water is used - will the 2 things combined be the next level of successful honey lightening reported results?

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I am glad to read that your hair is so soft and that you are getting lightening.

As an experiment, I mixed cinnamon and water then added honey - the honey made the solution a lot smoother but with your current water situation, 4 parts water to 1 part honey alone will be much easier.

Chamomile tea was recommended to help counter cinnamon irritation, but it may add colour to the hair and it is more time consuming - you need to wait until it is cooled to room temperture before adding the the honey, spice or oil to it.

The only other thing I can suggest trying is distilled water as the 4 parts of the recipe - it may help the honey work even better.
Thanks for that.:)
I noticed myself with my last treatment how when I had a towel over my head on the top of my plastic shower cap to cover drips at the front where I hadn't had good coverage with the plastic [ it slipped up ], the towel had dried up that front part of my hair. Something to think about in the future.
The length of my hair was dripping but some of my scalp was almost dry :shrug:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

For me using a plastic bag to cover my hair has always been easy - I buy and use freezer bags.

But some people here have difficulty with them - comfort and getting them to work just right - they can be challenging - so can plastic wrap.

Both mellie and firebird at one point - they may still prefer it - reported successful honey lightening using a spray bottle and no plastic.

The plastic came from the first successful reports of honey lightening in the original Honey thread and was used for overnight treatments.

I use the bags to maintain body heat to aid catnip getting deeper into my hair and it is more successful than if I do not use them.

For honey lightening it is not about body heat - it is about keeping the hair wet after the treatment has been applied.

IMO, using plastic is still the best way to maintain the needed constant moisture level.

If you or anyone can keep the hair wet during the hour the treatment is on the hair - not moist, not damp but wet - misting it is an option.

The wound research emphasises that there must be a constant source of liquid for honey to keep producing peroxide.

The hair cannot be allowed to start to dry - if it does - the honey will slow and eventually stop producing peroxide.

If the treatment is applied when the honey peroxide is at full strength and then allowed to dry - IMO, the treatment will still not be as effective.

So it is important to maintain the moisture level the entire time.

There will be even more drips with misting and the water content of the treatment will evaporate quicky during the hour - but it is an option.

[ktani]

Honey news 2008 from

"The First International Symposium on Honey and Human Health


"Two PhD microbiologists from Lund University in Sweden presented .... most novel research discovery regarding honey. ... research .... yet to be published. Drs. Tobias Olofsson and Alejandra Vasquez .... presentation .... “Lactobacillus: The Missing Link in Honey’s Enigma”, showed evidence .... different varietals of honey possess a large amount of viable lactobacilli (6 species) and bifidobacteria (4 species). They proposed that .... these bacteria and their longer lasting metabolites may explain many of the “mysterious therapeutic properties of honey”. ....Tobias and Alejandra confirmed what has been suggested by other researchers .... therapeutic properties of honey are dependent upon the types of flowers from which the bees forage nectar.
http://www.prohoneyandhealth.com/UserFiles/Image/Symposium%20Report.pdf

[ktani]

More from the 2008 Symposium


"In her presentation entitled “The Grossly Underutilized Anti-microbial”, Dr. Shona Blair from the University of Sydney, Australia .... stated that “honey dressings should be used as a ‘first choice’, not as a ‘last resort’”. Honey .... effective at low concentrations against a broad spectrum of bacteria, fungi, biofilm producing, and resistant organisms .... honey varietal .... critical .... antimicrobial properties can be 100 X greater from one varietal to the next. Honey .... stimulates healing .... possesses ideal dressing properties. Honey .... cost effective .... “Honey has no side effects!”



Dr. Nicola Starkey from the University of Waikato, New Zealand .... stated that honey .... healthier replacement for sucrose, particularly in those .... poor glycemic control .... who are at high risk from cardiovascular disease”. Honey .... replacement for sucrose in processed food .... “honey .... decrease anxiety and maintain memory functions as we age.” She noted .... long animal study the “positive effects of honey only occurred over the long term” (greater than 4 months) .... honey’s most beneficial health benefits .... not be manifest for several months or years .... in humans."
http://www.prohoneyandhealth.com/UserFiles/Image/Symposium%20Report.pdf

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

For me using a plastic bag to cover my hair has always been easy - I buy and use freezer bags.

But some people here have difficulty with them - comfort and getting them to work just right - they can be challenging - so can plastic wrap.

Both mellie and firebird at one point - they may still prefer it - reported successful honey lightening using a spray bottle and no plastic.

The plastic came from the first successful reports of honey lightening in the original Honey thread and was used for overnight treatments.

I use the bags to maintain body heat to aid catnip getting deeper into my hair and it is more successful than if I do not use them.

For honey lightening it is not about body heat - it is about keeping the hair wet after the treatment has been applied.

IMO, using plastic is still the best way to maintain the needed constant moisture level.

If you or anyone can keep the hair wet during the hour the treatment is on the hair - not moist, not damp but wet - misting it is an option.

The wound research emphasises that there must be a constant source of liquid for honey to keep producing peroxide.

The hair cannot be allowed to start to dry - if it does - the honey will slow and eventually stop producing peroxide.

If the treatment is applied when the honey peroxide is at full strength and then allowed to dry - IMO, the treatment will still not be as effective.

So it is important to maintain the moisture level the entire time.

There will be even more drips with misting and the water content of the treatment will evaporate quicky during the hour - but it is an option.
Thanks for that. :flower:
Here I am again having another go. Today I used a shower cap then put a plastic bag over my head then another shower cap over my head with no turbie or towel this time. Normally I put a turbie then a towel over. I will see how wet this lot is after I take it off. My towel is around my neck.
I used just the honey and water. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I look forward to hearing how it goes.

It sounds as if your hair is well covered.

Condensation from inside the plastic should help keep the hair wet.

Since you only going to be using water and honey for the next while - try using 1 cup of plain or distilled water to a 1/4 cup of honey - that strength should work nicely.

[Alley Cat]

Thanks ktani. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Another thing that you can experiment with, aside from the distilled water and the strength of the treatment, is the timing.

See if letting the honey and water sit for 1 hour, to develop the honey's full peroxide value, before applying it to your hair, makes a difference.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Another thing that you can experiment with, aside from the distilled water and the strength of the treatment, is the timing.

See if letting the honey and water sit for 1 hour, to develop the honey's full peroxide value, before applying it to your hair, makes a difference.
I will try leaving it an hour next time thank you for that. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Gilly mentioned jarrah honey in the original Honey thread. Here is some information that I found this morning.

"Benefits of Jarrah Honey
We do know that Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... has medical properties .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average. .... very successful in the treatment of .... golden staph and other bacteria. But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf (http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf)

"Jarrah Honey's Healing Properties Confirmed"
http://www.statpub.com/open/85328.html (http://www.statpub.com/open/85328.html)



Unfortunately, Jarrah honey is in crisis this year.

"WA beekeepers are struggling after more than 98 per cent of their jarrah honey yield was wiped out this season ...."
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=61562

but you might be able to find some.



This page is dated 9/6/2008. This apiarie claims to have jarrah honey.
"Bees Neez Apiaries
David & Leilani Leyland
285 Leyland Close
BEECHINA WA 6556

Tel: (08 ) 9572 6116 / Fax: 9572 6036 / Mob 0428 290 029
Email: beesneez@iinet.net.au
Website: www.beesneez.com.au

"We do have Jarrah honey"
http://www.holidayrentalsperth.com/pages/attractions.php

Their price list
"Jarrah Honey
1kg Honey 18.00
500gm Honey 11.00"
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html

If they don't, they may be kind enough to tell you where you can find it.

This website says it has jarrah honey too.
http://www.hythes.com/ProductHoney/HHoney.htm
Contact page
http://www.hythes.com/ContactUs/HContactUs.htm

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Gilly mentioned jarrah honey in the original Honey thread. Here is some information that I found this morning.

"Benefits of Jarrah Honey
We do know that Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... has medical properties .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average. .... very successful in the treatment of .... golden staph and other bacteria. But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf (http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf)

"Jarrah Honey's Healing Properties Confirmed"
http://www.statpub.com/open/85328.html (http://www.statpub.com/open/85328.html)



Unfortunately, Jarrah honey is in crisis this year

"WA beekeepers are struggling after more than 98 per cent of their jarrah honey yield was wiped out this season ...."
http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=77&ContentID=61562

but you might be able to find some.



This page is dated 9/6/2008. This apiarie claims to have jarrah honey.
"Bees Neez Apiaries
David & Leilani Leyland
285 Leyland Close
BEECHINA WA 6556

Tel: (08 ) 9572 6116 / Fax: 9572 6036 / Mob 0428 290 029
Email: beesneez@iinet.net.au
Website: www.beesneez.com.au

"We do have Jarrah honey"
http://www.holidayrentalsperth.com/pages/attractions.php

Their price list
"Jarrah Honey
1kg Honey 18.00
500gm Honey 11.00"
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html

If they don't, they may be kind enough to tell you where you can find it.
Thank you for that ktani. I will have a look into it. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

You are most welcome.

I had just found and edited in this information while you were replying.

This website says it has jarrah honey too. They can give you retail outlets - where to buy their honey.
http://www.hythes.com/ProductHoney/HHoney.htm (http://www.hythes.com/ProductHoney/HHoney.htm)
Contact page
http://www.hythes.com/ContactUs/HContactUs.htm (http://www.hythes.com/ContactUs/HContactUs.htm)

The high peroxide value of the jarrah honey should make up for the cinnamon you are not going to be using, and honey has the flavonoids that protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage, as do the other peroxide containing, honey lightening recipe ingredients.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

You are most welcome.

I had just found and edited in this information while you were replying.

This website says it has jarrah honey too. They can give you retail outlets - where to buy their honey.
http://www.hythes.com/ProductHoney/HHoney.htm (http://www.hythes.com/ProductHoney/HHoney.htm)
Contact page
http://www.hythes.com/ContactUs/HContactUs.htm (http://www.hythes.com/ContactUs/HContactUs.htm)

The high peroxide value of the jarrah honey should make up for the cinnamon you are not going to be using, and honey has the flavonoids that protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage, as do the other honey lightening recipe ingredients.
Thank you for that ktani. For some reason I can't open up the whole page on that link to read all the information:shrug: Oh well.

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Which page?

I will post the information for you. - They have something attached that does not allow one to copy anything.

Never mind - I will still post the information.

"Hotline/ SMS : (65) 9838 6121

Telephone / Fax (65) 6271 0127

Email: hello@hythes.com

(assistance available from 9am to 7 pm daily)"

http://www.hythes.com/ContactUs/HContactUs.htm

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Which page?

I will post the information for you. - They have something attached that does not allow one to copy anything.

Never mind - I will still post the information.

"Hotline/ SMS : (65) 9838 6121

Telephone / Fax (65) 6271 0127

Email: hello@hythes.com

(assistance available from 9am to 7 pm daily)"

http://www.hythes.com/ContactUs/HContactUs.htm
Oh it was both links the page doesn't open up completely. :shrug:
Thank you . Anyway I am hitting the sack now it's rather late here. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

That is odd - they both open fine for me.

No worries.

On the order page it says

"Send us your inquiry or order, or contact us to make arrangements for delivery or payment!"
http://www.hythes.com/OrdersDelivery/HOrdersDelivery.htm#orderform

They do not ask for a company name - so it does not appear that they restrict delivery to wholesale only customers.They sell internationally as well. They do not list prices on the page. You have to contact them for prices.

They sell

"Unprocessed Raw Australian Forrest Jarrah Honey
Easy pour 380 g

and

Unprocessed Raw Australian Forrest Jarrah Honey
Square Jar 530g"

The honey is "laboratory tested to contain Total Activity TA 20+."
http://www.hythes.com/ProductHoney/HHoney.htm

[ktani]

More on jarrah honey. See "Comparing Different Types of Honey"

".... Irish et al. .... found Jarrah honey (derived from Eucalyptus marginata) .... contains higher amounts of glucose oxidase .... significantly more effective against Candida spp. in vitro; .... other honeys including MedihoneyTM against Candida spp. with minimal inhibitory concentrations above 40% (w/v) were not distinguishable from the activity of an artificial honey."
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

[ktani]

This caught my eye from the same site on jarrah honey See "Honey Must be Kept in Contact to the Wound"

"Medical honey dressings should keep the honey in contact with the wound .... the best way to keep the honey in the wound .... soak medical honey into a calcium-alginate or hydrofiber dressing .... forms a gel with the honey as it absorbs the exudate."
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

"Calcium alginate .... edible substance .... created through the addition of aqueous calcium chloride to aqueous sodium alginate."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_alginate

It may be a way of getting honey lightening treatments to stay put.

The calcium alginate would have to be added to the honey in water.



I am not sure how this would work, if it will work. For wounds, it is based on continuous fluid coming from the wound that the dressing covers.

"If .... dressing is inappropriate .... honey may be washed out of the wound by exudate."
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

Honey lightening is completely different - the only source of liquid is in the recipe itself.



I know that DolphinPrincess tried constarch in her recipe and it may have interfered with lightening somehow - possibly with the honey/water dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=124699&postcount=994

Cornstarch contains no Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5697/2

ETA: Corn does contain catalase though - which causes hydrogen peroxide to break down into water and oxygen. That would explain her results.

"Catalase .... among the best understood enzymes as well as being .... present throughout nature. .... Catalase converts hydrogen peroxide, H2O2, into water, H2O, and oxygen .... forms of catalase have been isolated to date from several organisms, including humans, flies, corn, and potatoes."
http://www.madsci.org/FAQs/catalase.html

[ktani]

Agar may work, added to a honey lightening recipe - unknown at this point, what effect it would have on the dilution or results.

If heat is used in preparing the agar with water - the agar would have to be cooled to room temperature - before adding any of the honey lightening recipe peroxide containing ingredients - to avoid possibly destroying the hydrogen peroxide.

Agar was used with hydrogen peroxide to grow mushrooms here.
http://www.mycomasters.com/Sources.html

"Agar or agar agar is a gelatinous substance It is an unbranched polysaccharide …. obtained from the some species of red algae …. can be used as a vegetarian gelatin substitute, a thickener for soups …."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar

“Agar agar …. usually white-ish in colour.”
http://www.thefoodcoach.com.au/food.asp?Action=View&FoodID=444

Note: My experience with polysaccharides in products - even natural ones - is that they can build-up on the hair - but they do wash out if you do not clarify. I use shampoo. The hair may be less soft and easy to handle. German chamomile, which contains polysaccharides, built-up on my hair because I used too much of it, and it made my hair dry, with more breakage.

[Sissilonghair]

Hi everyone,I just want to say that I'm doing a honey treatment right at this moment,I have another twenty minutes to wait.I hope to light my hair up a little.I did a honey treatement before ,but I was using the honey conditioner EVOO receipe.I don't think it worked.Now I'm following flapjack receipe(water honey and cinnamon),it smells nice and I love cinnamon, I avoided the oil.I applied the mixture with a big cotton ball to saturate my hair,but next time I think I will use a spray bottle.
I did not let the mixture sit,I just made it and applied it on my hair cover with a plastic bag and a towel,I will report later:)

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

Thank you for posting and letting me know.

I look forward to your results.

flapjack's latest recipe

1 ounce honey, 4 ounces water, 1 tsp cinnamon, 20 drops evoo, 10 drops coconut oil.

[ktani]

Knox Unflavoured Gelatin contains no Vitamin C.

See "Nutrition Facts'
http://www.kraftfoodservice.com/productsandbrands/ProductSpecific.htm?option=product&id=1443

Again - this is unknown territory re possibly adding gelatin to a honey lightening recipe.

If heat is used in preparing the gelatin with water - the gelatin would have to be cooled to room temperature - before adding any of the honey lightening recipe peroxide containing ingredients - to avoid possibly destroying the hydrogen peroxide.


Agar contains no Vitamin C either.
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2615/2

This is interesting, IMO. See Sulphur dioxide content
"Hydrogen peroxide .... used to control the SO2 content of gelatin .... interesting to note that both H2O2 and SO2 can be shown to coexist in gelatin."
http://www.gelatin.co.za/gltn1.html

In doing so is the hydrogen peroxide depleted to an extent?

[ktani]

Corn contains catalase - which breaks down hydrogen peroxide.

Therefore cornstarch should not be added to honey lightening recipe IMO and it did not work out too well for DolphinPrincess, who tried it.

It looks as though both gelatin and agar can be problematic too, under the right circumstances and in percentages.

The bottom line is this.

The less a honey lightening recipe is adulterated - the better IMO - in terms of adding extra ingredients that do not promote lightening and may just work against the purpose of the recipes.

Interesting concept though - less drips - but bulking up the recipes was exactly the reason that conditioner proved to be a problem - its ingredients that could interfere with lightening, deplete peroxide and its water content which could reduce the optimal honey/water dilution.

I do not recommend trying to bulk up a honey lightening recipe.

What you gain in drips you make up for in time - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey recipes only need to be left on the hair for 1 hour.

More importantly, they have also been reported to be the most successful in terms of results.

I think that trying a honey with a high peroxide level like jarrah honey, trying distilled water over plain water and letting a recipe sit for 1 hour to reach its maximum peroxide level are much better ways of possibly achieving better results.

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

Thank you for posting and letting me know.

I look forward to your results.

flapjack's latest recipe

1 ounce honey, 4 ounces water, 1 tsp cinnamon, 20 drops evoo, 10 drops coconut oil.
Here I am after drying my hair...it looks like I got some reflexes but I'll see better tomorrow under the sunlight.
Is it okay if I don't use the oils in the treatment??Then I used 1/2 tsp of cinnamon:o...

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

Thank you for posting your preliminary results.

The peroxide boosters are options.

You can add or discard the ones you prefer.

The purpose of the boosters is to make the recipes more effective.

You can increase one and not use another or use a smaller amount of more than one.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

That is odd - they both open fine for me.

No worries.

On the order page it says

"Send us your inquiry or order, or contact us to make arrangements for delivery or payment!"
http://www.hythes.com/OrdersDelivery/HOrdersDelivery.htm#orderform

They do not ask for a company name - so it does not appear that they restrict delivery to wholesale only customers.They sell internationally as well. They do not list prices on the page. You have to contact them for prices.

They sell

"Unprocessed Raw Australian Forrest Jarrah Honey
Easy pour 380 g

and

Unprocessed Raw Australian Forrest Jarrah Honey
Square Jar 530g"

The honey is "laboratory tested to contain Total Activity TA 20+."
http://www.hythes.com/ProductHoney/HHoney.htm

I tried again it cuts off the ends of the side on the right. :shrug:
Thanks for your information . :flower:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

You are most welcome!

It could be how your computer is set up - I think that you can widen the view.

[Alley Cat]

I can't see where to widen the view there is no bar at the bottom it's annoying as I can't contact them by email as all the info won't open up , emailing would be cheaper and easier. :brickwall:
I am actually thinking of looking around where I live to see if it's in stores . :ponder:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I posted the email.

Email:

hello@hythes.com

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=141293&postcount=1137

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I posted the email.

Email:

hello@hythes.com

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=141293&postcount=1137

Thanks I sent them an email and asked if they sell it in stores here. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

From the 2 phone numbers and the assistance notice, as well as an email - they sound eager to be of help.

It is a question now of stock.

Good luck!

Please let me know how they are in response time.

I emailed them to as a test of the email asking about stock.

I will also post response time.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

From the 2 phone numbers and the assistance notice, as well as an email - they sound eager to be of help.

It is a question now of stock.

Good luck!

Please let me know how they are in response time.

I emailed them to as a test of the email asking about stock.

I will also post response time.

Thank you I will let you know when they respond, thanks for all your help :flower:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

My pleasure.

[ktani]

Jarrah forest honey species

"Jarrah honey has healing powers - Skye McCarthy
.... research has confirmed the healing power of Jarrah forest honey. .... findings show that honey .... some of the state's jarrah species, have naturally high anti-bacterial properties .... help cure .... difficult infections like Golden Staph. ....Research Officer Robert Manning, says initially only the Jarrah species Eucalyptus Marginata was thought to have healing power, but they've found .... honey from other species, like Redgum, also shows strong potential. .... Beekeeper Afon Edwards says .... findings indicate that WA has some of the most active honey's in the world .... the fact that these jarrah species .... found no where else in the world .... places more value on WA's forests."
http://www.abc.net.au/rural/wa/stories/s1072172.htm

So Jarrah is the location that honey is from - not a plant source - there are different plant sources for Jarrah honey and the honeys are all unique due to the forest's ecosystem - fascinating.

[ktani]

This species is commonly referred to as the jarrah tree.

It is the predominant plant source for Jarrah honey but it blooms every 2 years - except this year - it has budded twice - See the media release below.

"Common Name: jarrah, swan river mahogany
Genus: Eucalyptus
Species: marginata
.... use of the jarrah tree is honey. Every other year .... jarrah flowers bloom, beekeepers have their bees pollinate the tree and make .... honey."
http://www.blueplanetbiomes.org/jarrah.htm


"Jarrah Forrest
.... name refers to the region's dominant ecosystem: Jarrah Forest; that is, a tall open forest .... dominant overstory tree is Eucalyptus marginata (Jarrah)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarrah_Forest



The Western Australian Farmers Federation Media Release - February 2008

“Jarrah trees from the south-west of Western Australia were very well budded .... promised a
good year of honey production .... unfavourable climatic conditions meant this result was not
achieved,” Mr Leyland said.

.... hoped that there will be a Jarrah honey crop this coming summer as Western Australian Jarrah
trees .... produced a fresh crop of buds.
“This is unusual as Jarrah trees normally flowers every two years,” Mr Leyland concluded."
http://www.beesneez.com.au/media-release-jarrah-hone-in-short-supply.pdf

Media releases on Jarrah honey
http://www.beesneez.com.au/media-releases.html

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

Thank you for posting your preliminary results.

The peroxide boosters are options.

You can add or discard the ones you prefer.

The purpose of the boosters is to make the recipes more effective.

You can increase one and not use another or use a smaller amount of more than one.
This morning I was looking at my hair under the light and it doesn't look really lighter to me the fact is that I can't get rid of the orangey colour that I have under the sunlight.
I should repeat the treatment again,this time using chamomille infusion..Oh! I forgot to say that I don't have manuka honey,the kind I used is clover honey,is that ok??
I would like to know if repeated treatments(for ex. each 2 days) might damage my hair or make them too dry:(

[ktani]

This morning I was looking at my hair under the light and it doesn't look really lighter to me the fact is that I can't get rid of the orangey colour that I have under the sunlight.
I should repeat the treatment again,this time using chamomille infusion..Oh! I forgot to say that I don't have manuka honey,the kind I used is clover honey,is that ok??
I would like to know if repeated treatments(for ex. each 2 days) might damage my hair or make them too dry:(

Sissilonghair

Thank you for the update.

I am sorry to read that you did not get the lightening that you wanted.

I suggest that you try a different honey - a dark coloured blend. Some honeys produce more peroxide than others.

You do not need to buy manuka honey for honey lightening - UMF manuka honey and manuka honeys in general are expensive.

The cheap pasteurized honeys have been reported to work just fine.

You can honey lighten as often as you wish IMO. See #12, in the link below for details and research.

I prepared the following post, linked below, as an all inclusive summary of the current honey lightening recommendations, that are based on accredited research I read and current reports of successful results.

I think that you may find this linked post helpful. See # 3, to answer your specific question in detail but you do not need to use herbal tea with honey lightening.

It includes links to other posts for more details, as well as the updated Pictures Post.

You can use it as a checklist for your recipe and method.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

[Sissilonghair]

Thanks ktani ...I will follow all your instructions literally and I will let you know soon:flower:
I forgot to say that you are a mine of information:)

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

ETA: Thank you - you are very kind.

You are most welcome.

With honey lightening, the method is equally important as the recipe, IMO.

[ktani]

A Comprehensive Summary of the newest honey lightening recommendations. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread.

1. The 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. With this dilution, a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour, because a honey will produce its maximum amount of peroxide in that time. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion table - See "Convert cup of honey into grams g, ounces oz or tablespoons." Use 4 times the amount of water by weight, e.g. 40 grams water to 10 grams of honey. You can also convert to ml, because 1 gram = 1 ml.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html
According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the 4 to 1 dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using the old dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List - if one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the 4 to 1 dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.

4. Herbal teas if used instead of straight distilled water - chamomile - Roman chamomile is preferable but it is possible that chamomile can add a gold tone to the hair. Mullein - leaves only not flowers - the leaves are not known to add colour. The herbal tea should be brewed with distilled water.

5. Herbal tea that is used with honey lightening needs to be cooled first to room temperature before any other ingredients are added to it. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into herbal tea, when the honey is added first.

6. For blondes, lighter hair colours, and hair colours where one does not want the possibility of added colour, distilled water is better, than risking added colour by using herbal tea.

7. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

8. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients except herbal tea should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide by decomposing it to water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883

9. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C content), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C - avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys - most honeys contain very small amounts.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

10. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

11. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening and because of its water content (most conditioners are between 70 to 90 % water), if used as part of the 4 to 1 ratio, shorten the amount of water needed for optimal honey dilution. You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinsing it out. If there is honey residue, shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

12. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

13. Cover the hair during the 1 hour needed for the treatments, with plastic, a bag, wrap or shower cap, to ensure the best results. This provides a constant moisture level, and allows the honey to produce peroxide uninterrupted. If the hair starts to dry, the honey slows its production of peroxide and it will stop producing peroxide altogether, if the hair dries completely. An option is misting the hair without the use of plastic, provided that the hair is kept wet at all times during the treatment. Honey only produces peroxide when diluted and kept wet. The treatments can be left on the hair longer than 1 hour, if so desired. You can also let a recipe sit for 1 hour before applying it, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

14. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing and or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and or vinegar are used. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035

15. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

[flapjack]

...


I have a giant blob of slimy hair... wrapped in a giant piece of plastic wrap... on my head. :D


And little droplets keep attacking me (read: falling on my shoulder/arm/neck/ear)!


I am gonna need a shower after this. Lol.


Pictures tomorrow or the day after. I used the same recipe I did last time.


I'm looking pretty snazzy right now, just so you guys know. I feel snazzy.

[ktani]

flapjack

Good luck!

[Sissilonghair]

Hi girls...I'm going to slime my hair too in a couple of hours.
This time I want to use roman chamomille infusion instead of plain water and see what happens,my intention is to use cinnamon also since I did not have any allergy problems last time...see you later;)
flapjack I hope to see your pictures soon:)

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

Good luck!

[Sissilonghair]

Here I am to report on my result....ktani don't you worry I am fine now I am back to my normal colour :D
This time I can definately see some gold all over my hair...what I use is one cup of roman chamomille infusion and 1/4 cup of honey and 1 tsp. cinnamon....
and I am happy with the result:hollie:
for sure I'm going to experiment more :stirpot: :wink:

[Gabriel]

I did another lightening treatment this time not adding cloves...just the water & honey & cinnamon & a bit of olive oil.

4 oz water
1 oz honey
1/2 tbsp cinnamon
1tsp olive oil

My hair is still pretty dark but there are definitly golden lights in my hair now. The sun picks them up & the ends, where I guess the hair is older has a nice natural gradiation to them with hints of gold. Looks pretty in updos.

No damage that I notice and it leaves my hair softer and shinier.

[ktani]

Here I am to report on my result....ktani don't you worry I am fine now I am back to my normal colour :D
This time I can definately see some gold all over my hair...what I use is one cup of roman chamomille infusion and 1/4 cup of honey and 1 tsp. cinnamon....
and I am happy with the result:hollie:
for sure I'm going to experiment more :stirpot: :wink:

Sissilonghair

I am so sorry that you had a problem with the cinnamon in terms of irritation.

I am also glad that as with other reports on the same condition, that the problem was temporary.

I was out all day and this is the first time I have been online since this morning.

And I am also glad for you that you got some lightening.

How is the condition of your hair?

[ktani]

I did another lightening treatment this time not adding cloves...just the water & honey & cinnamon & a bit of olive oil.

4 oz water
1 oz honey
1/2 tbsp cinnamon
1tsp olive oil

My hair is still pretty dark but there are definitly golden lights in my hair now. The sun picks them up & the ends, where I guess the hair is older has a nice natural gradiation to them with hints of gold. Looks pretty in updos.

No damage that I notice and it leaves my hair softer and shinier.

Gabriel

Thank you for your report.

I am glad to read about the hi-lights.

If you have no problem tolerating cinnamon - you can increase the amount to 1 tablespoon and possibly 2.

Thank you also for your report on the condition of your hair - I always want to know that - and ask about it - "softer and shinier" is excellet news.

[ktani]

Taking another look at distilled water and honey lightening.

1. Distilled water is the water used in testing a honey for its peroxide value

2. "Hydrogen peroxide .... decomposes .... in contact with salts such as iron, copper, manganese, nickel, or chromium."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

The mineral content of plain water can be a problem for honey lightening. Distilled water for honey lightening is a better choice.

Types of purified water See "Distilled water"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water

Deioized water can be used as an alternate water.

Spring, well water and most filtered waters contain minerals and are not recommended.

[ktani]

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread.

A Comprehensive Summary of the newest honey lightening recommendations. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. With this dilution, a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour, because a honey will produce its maximum amount of peroxide in that time. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion table - See "Convert cup of honey into grams g, ounces oz or tablespoons." Use 4 times the amount of water by weight, e.g. 40 grams water to 10 grams of honey. You can also convert to ml, because 1 gram = 1 ml.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html
According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the 4 to 1 dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using the old dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List - if one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the 4 to 1 dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.

4. Herbal teas if used instead of straight distilled water - chamomile - Roman chamomile is preferable but it is possible that chamomile can add a gold tone to the hair. Mullein - leaves only not flowers - the leaves are not known to add colour. The herbal tea should be brewed with distilled water.

5. Herbal tea that is used with honey lightening needs to be cooled first to room temperature before any other ingredients are added to it. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into herbal tea, when the honey is added first.

6. For blondes, lighter hair colours, and hair colours where one does not want the possibility of added colour, distilled water is better, than risking added colour by using herbal tea.

7. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

8. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients except herbal tea should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide by decomposing it to water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=883 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883)

9. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=429 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

10. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

11. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening and because of its water content (most conditioners are between 70 to 90 % water), if used as part of the 4 to 1 ratio, shorten the amount of water needed for optimal honey dilution. You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinsing it out. If there is honey residue, shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

12. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

13. Cover the hair during the 1 hour needed for the treatments, with plastic, a bag, wrap or shower cap, to ensure the best results. This provides a constant moisture level, and allows the honey to produce peroxide uninterrupted. If the hair starts to dry, the honey slows its production of peroxide and it will stop producing peroxide altogether, if the hair dries completely. An option is misting the hair without the use of plastic, provided that the hair is kept wet at all times during the treatment. Honey only produces peroxide when diluted and kept wet. The treatments can be left on the hair longer than 1 hour, if so desired. You can also let a recipe sit for 1 hour before applying it, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

14. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing and or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and or vinegar are used. Some honeys leave less residue than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1035 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035)

15. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1095 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095)

[ktani]

A great and informative discussion IMO, on where to buy distilled water - most grocery and drugstores.

Someone on the forum linked below provided a long list of retail outlet names.

The list is of American retailers but the kinds of vendor sources for distilled water should be the same everywhere.

http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

[Sissilonghair]

My hair conditions are good it feels soft and nice and very shiny.
The only thing I did not pay attention to,was the use of distilled water.

Gabriel and flapjack how do you apply the mix on your hair?Yesterday I did a big mess and I had a lot of dripping using a spritz bottle,I think next time I will use the cotton ball again:)

ktani ....there is a gel I make with linseeds,that is very slimy and I'd like to know if I can put it in the mix,of course when it is cold.

[ktani]

My hair conditions are good it feels soft and nice and very shiny.
The only thing I did not pay attention to,was the use of distilled water.

Gabriel and flapjack how do you apply the mix on your hair?Yesterday I did a big mess and I had a lot of dripping using a spritz bottle,I think next time I will use the cotton ball again:)

ktani ....there is a gel I make with linseeds,that is very slimy and I'd like to know if I can put it in the mix,of course when it is cold.

Sissilonghair

Thank you for the reply on the condition of your hair - I am very pleased for you that it is so good.

The recommendation of using distilled water is new - I posted about it before but I am recommending it now after rereading the research.

Linseeds or flax seeds are high in antioxidants - not a good idea in a honey lightening recipe.

"Linseed ... Common Flax Flax Seed ...."
http://www.herbs2000.com/herbs/herbs_linseed.htm

"Flax seed .... rich in antioxidants ...."
http://www.dietaryfiberfood.com/Flax-seed.php

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes antioxidants and is depleted in doing so - just as it does with Vitamin C, which is also an antioxidant - the higher the level of antioxidants - the more peroxide is depleted in oxidizing them.

In this case you would be working against what you are trying to do - lighten your hair.

I do not recommend bulking up the recipes.

The more things added to a recipe that are not helpful to its function - the greater the risk of problems, IMO.

[Sissilonghair]

Thanks for answering me ktani,but if there is anything to put in the mix to make it thicker please let us know,because the dripping is a pain....XD

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

You could try firebird's honey lightening recipe with cassia, cinnamon and EVOO but it is not a thick recipe - the cassia is there to condition.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

The recipe is supposed to be drippy - but it only lasts an hour vs the old dilutions - which took much longer to achieve the results reported with the 4 to 1 dilution.

[Alley Cat]

Ktani I bought some water today but am not sure if it's the right sort it says natural spring water. :confused:

It's nutrition information says
Typical Analysis mg/L

Bicarbonate 15

Sodium 3

Chloride 2

Magnesium Less than 1

Calcium Less than 1

Potassium Less than 1


I couldn't see anything in the supermarket that said distilled water they all said either pure or spring water. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place. :shrug:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Natural spring water is not distilled water.

You have a nice pure drinking water though.

It needs to say distilled water.

Your drugstore may have distilled water.

It is the kind of water they sell for steam irons but you need to read the label to make sure nothing is added to it - some water for appliances is not pure distilled water apparently.

"Natural spring water is water .... from .... natural springs in the earth. This water .... rich in minerals and trace elements. .... tested for quality .... not processed like drinking water because this would remove many of its beneficial minerals.
Distilled water has had all of its minerals and trace elements removed by distillation .... steaming the water and then allowing the steam to cool and turn back into water."
http://chetday.com/springwater.htm

I did find this - shipping supply places in Tasmania sell distilled water.
http://www.tasshipping.com.au/deck&engine/

Aquarium stores should carry it - plant stores too.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Natural spring water is not distilled water.

You have a nice pure drinking water though.

It needs to say distilled water.

Your drugstore may have distilled water.

It is the kind of water they sell for steam irons but you need to read the label to make sure nothing is added to it - some water for appliances is not pure distilled water apparently.

"Natural spring water is water .... from .... natural springs in the earth. This water .... rich in minerals and trace elements. .... tested for quality .... not processed like drinking water because this would remove many of its beneficial minerals.
Distilled water has had all of its minerals and trace elements removed by distillation .... steaming the water and then allowing the steam to cool and turn back into water."
http://chetday.com/springwater.htm

I did find this - shipping supply places in Tasmania sell distilled water.
http://www.tasshipping.com.au/deck&engine/

Aquarium stores should carry it - plant stores too.
Thanks ktani. :)
Oh well I will look again. :shrug:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I had emailed both Jarrah honey suppliers - only one emailed back - they do have Jarrah honey in stock.

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I emailed the supplier back asking about stores in Tasmania for you.

Waiting to hear back - pm on the way.

I want you to have first option before I post their information again - now that I know that they have stock - because of your water difficulties and because I suggested Jarrah honey honey to you, since you cannot use the peroxide boosters at this time.

I do not know how much of a Jarrah honey shortage they have because of the drought - whether their stock is currently limited.

I will be posting their contact information, website and prices - and the links to those. The prices are very reasonable, IMO. Jarrah honey is not expensive at all. I am not sure at this point - but have enquired - whether you can order direct and if they ship internationally - they supply retail outlets in Australia.

I told them about the Honey thread and sent them a link - as a courtesy - they should know IMO, where their information is being posted - and that I do not want or expect anything from them in exchange for posting their information.

The fact that they graciously replied to my email is evidence to me that they understand what customer service means - they replied in a few days to an inquiry about stock - not an order. I am impressed so far.

[ktani]

3 honeys stand out to me for different reasons - 2 for medicinal use - UMF manuka honey and thyme honey.

UMF 10+ manuka honey worked for me on the beginning of a toenail infection - it cleared it up in less than 24 hours.

Thyme honey is recommended for H. pylori, although it is not a standard recognized treatment at this time.

Manuka honey is expensive - I do not think it is necessary at all for honey lightening.

Thyme honey has a low peroxide value - it is not recommended for honey lightening either. What makes it successful againt H. pylori in vitro is its pH and osmolarity. It is not expensive.

And the third honey - Jarrah honey.

I do recommend it for honey lightenng. It is inexpensive and best of all, it has a very high peroxide value.

There will be - hopefully - a new "crop" of Jarrah honey soon.

When I hear back from Alley Cat about what she wishes to do - I will post the information about where Jarrah honey can currently be purchased for a very reasonable price - in Australia for sure - I am waiting to hear back about international shipping and direct ordering.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I had emailed both Jarrah honey suppliers - only one emailed back - they do have Jarrah honey in stock.

Thanks for that. :)


Alley Cat

I emailed the supplier back asking about stores in Tasmania for you.

Waiting to hear back - pm on the way.

I want you to have first option before I post their information again - now that I know that they have stock - because of your water difficulties and because I suggested Jarrah honey honey to you, since you cannot use the peroxide boosters at this time.

I do not know how much of a Jarrah honey shortage they have because of the drought - whether their stock is currently limited.

I will be posting their contact information, website and prices - and the links to those. The prices are very reasonable, IMO. Jarrah honey is not expensive at all. I am not sure at this point - but have enquired - whether you can order direct and if they ship internationally - they supply retail outlets in Australia.

I told them about the Honey thread and sent them a link - as a courtesy - they should know IMO, where their information is being posted - and that I do not want or expect anything from them in exchange for posting their information.

The fact that they graciously replied to my email is evidence to me that they understand what customer service means - they replied in a few days to an inquiry about stock - not an order. I am impressed so far.

Yes they are more courteous than the first company who haven't replied at all . :shrug:
Thank you for all your enquiries. :flower:


3 honeys stand out to me for different reasons - 2 for medicinal use - UMF manuka honey and thyme honey.

UMF 10+ manuka honey worked for me on the beginning of a toenail infection - it cleared it up in less than 24 hours.

Thyme honey is recommended for H. pylori, although it is not a standard recognized treatment at this time.

Manuka honey is expensive - I do not think it is necessary at all for honey lightening.

Thyme honey has a low peroxide value - it is not recommended for honey lightening either. What makes it successful againt H. pylori in vitro is its pH and osmolarity. It is not expensive.

And the third honey - Jarrah honey.

I do recommend it for honey lightenng. It is inexpensive and best of all, it has a very high peroxide value.

There will be - hopefully - a new "crop" of Jarrah honey soon.

When I hear back from Alley Cat about what she wishes to do - I will post the information about where Jarrah honey can currently be purchased for a very reasonable price - in Australia for sure - I am waiting to hear back about international shipping and direct ordering.

I actually have some Manuka honey I picked some up here on sale for $6.00 for 500g so it wasn't dear at all for me. I am still looking around here for Jarrah . I went through my last 500g pretty fast having done about 6 treatments so far so I am not bothered if I have 2 lots. I can use one for eating if that's the case. ;)I want to check out a store I think may possibly have some as it carries different lines . I will be there on Monday.:)

[Alley Cat]

I am keen to try cardamon a try if I can find some and it's not too expensive I have read it's not as difficult to wash out as the cinnamon. I don't plan to use cinnamon or EVOO anymore. But will may give the cardamon at least one try so I may have one peroxide booster in my mix if it works out. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

You are most welcome - my pleasure.

That is great - hopefully I will hear back from them soon on; stores that carry their Jarrah honey in Tasmania, direct ordering, and international shipping before I post, so I can do so properly.

Patch test cardamom though - GlennaGirl was sensitive to it - no lasting problem thankfully - she had not patch tested.

My post can wait until Monday - to give them a chance to reply.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

You are most welcome - my pleasure.

That is great - hopefully I will hear back from them soon on; stores that carry their Jarrah honey in Tasmania, direct ordering, and international shipping before I post, so I can do so properly.

Patch test cardamom though - GlennaGirl was sensitive to it - no lasting problem thankfully - she had not patch tested.

My post can wait until Monday - to give them a chance to reply.
Thank you. :)
Is a patch test where you put some on your skin as is to see if it reacts or do you have to put it under a bandage ? I think I would be alright. :shrug:

I found the distilled water in Big W today in the Motoring section , if any Aussie's read this thread that might be a help to them. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I had read that automotive places sell distilled water too - but did not post it.

Thank you for doing that - it helps a lot, IMO.

Distilled water is not recommended for drinking - the minerals are good for you - they are just not good for steam irons, aquariums and honey lightening, lol.

Yes - you have a patch test right.

Another way to do it would be to mix some water - you do not have to waste the distilled water for this - and cardamom - and put a very small amount on the nape of your neck, near your hair - dilute it well though - to see if you are sensitive - uncovered - for the skin - the inside of the upper arm -covered with a band-aid for 24 hours.

If your nape area is sensitive - remove it immediately, IMO - with water or wash it off - you can apply aloe gel to the area if you wish - that has been reported to help with cinnamon irritation. And do not wait for 24 hours to remove it if your skin is sensitive either - honey lightening is not supposed to be a pain endurance experience. If you react - IMO - stay away from it depending on how bad the reaction is - honey lightening is not worth pain IMO.

I would test the cardamom both ways - just to be sure.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I had read that automotive places sell distilled water too - but did not post it.

Thank you for doing that - it helps a lot, IMO.

Distilled water is not recommended for drinking - the minerals are good for you - they are just not good for steam irons, aquariums and honey lightening, lol.

Yes - you have a patch test right.

Another way to do it would be to mix some water - you do not have to waste the distilled water for this - and cardamom - and put a very small amount on the nape of your neck, near your hair - dilute it well though - to see if you are sensitive - uncovered - for the skin - the inside of the upper arm -covered with a band-aid for 24 hours.

If your nape area is sensitive - remove it immediately, IMO - with water or wash it off - you can apply aloe gel to the area if you wish - that has been reported to help with cinnamon irritation. And do not wait for 24 hours if your skin is sensitive either - honey lightening is not supposed to be a pain endurance experience.

I would test the cardamom both ways - just to be sure.
Thank you for that. :)

[ktani]

Allet Cat

You are welcome.

Darn - I always get quoted before I finish editing these days, lol.

No worries lol, but please check out the added text - I wanted to make sure that I explained the patch testing clearly and how I feel about it.

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

You could try firebird's honey lightening recipe with cassia, cinnamon and EVOO but it is not a thick recipe - the cassia is there to condition.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

The recipe is supposed to be drippy - but it only lasts an hour vs the old dilutions - which took much longer to achieve the results reported with the 4 to 1 dilution.
:DThanks for letting me know ktani ,but if you think of any solution that is more thicker,you are very wellcome;)

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

I do not agree with bulking up the honey lightening recipes - it is a potentially problematic idea any way you look at it.

For honey lightening the problems are these - chemical reactions or dilution problems that can make the whole thing a waste of time.

I have though been thinking about ways to make the process less difficult for you.

I do not think that a spray bottle is your best choice for applying a treatment.

You might be better off trying to apply a recipe with a tint or blush brush - especially on the top part of your hair - at the scalp - with your hair combed back and parted in sections away from your face.

Pin your hair up - then cover it - and sit for an hour with a towel around your neck and your head - tilted back just a bit - using a back or neck support.

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

I do not agree with bulking up the honey lightening recipes - it is a potentially problematic idea any way you look at it.

For honey lightening the problems are these - chemical reactions or dilution problems that can make the whole thing a waste of time.

I have though been thinking about ways to make the process less difficult for you.

I do not think that a spray bottle is your best choice for applying a treatment.

You might be better off trying to apply a recipe with a tint or blush brush - especially on the top part of your hair - at the scalp - with your hair combed back and parted in sections away from your face.

Pin your hair up - then cover it - and sit for an hour with a towel around your neck and your head - tilted back just a bit - using a back or neck support.
Ok then, I guess I will do what you tell me,thanks again.
Next time I am going to use a tint brush which I think it's the best for applying the mixture on top of the head:)
Have I ever asked you if the hair should be wet or dry ??

[Alley Cat]

Allet Cat

You are welcome.

Darn - I always get quoted before I finish editing these days, lol.

No worries lol, but please check out the added text - I wanted to make sure that I explained the patch testing clearly and how I feel about it.
Thank you . I have done that. :)

[ktani]

Ok then, I guess I will do what you tell me,thanks again.
Next time I am going to use a tint brush which I think it's the best for applying the mixture on top of the head:)
Have I ever asked you if the hair should be wet or dry ??

Sissilonghair

I think that the hair is better wet but with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution - the hair wil get very wet soon enough.

With this now being the 5th Honey thread - I have as the expression goes "seen it all" pretty much when it comes to honey lightening recipe ideas.

The no drips idea is not new.

Many tried that with conditioner - or coconut cream.

The best efforts were reported to lighten hair - very, very slowly though - over months and were not reported to achieve what has been reported to be even better results with the 4 to 1 dilution in an hour in some cases.

I am trying to share the benefits with you of the accredited research I have read and the experinces of others through their reports of results - to help you get the best possible results in the shortest amount of time.

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Great!

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

I think that the hair is better wet but with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution - the hair wil get very wet soon enough.

With this now being the 5th Honey thread - I have as the expression goes "seen it all" pretty much when it comes to honey lightening recipe ideas.

The no drips idea is not new.

Many tried that with conditioner - or coconut cream.

The best efforts were reported to lighten hair - very, very slowly though - over months and were not reported to achieve what has been reported to be even better results with the 4 to 1 dilution in an hour in some cases.

I am trying to share the benefits with you of the accredited research I have read and the experinces of others through their reports of results - to help you get the best possible results in the shortest amount of time.
ktani I couldn't help, it has been over an hour that I have another honey treatement on my head.What I did was just the 1 part of honey(cloves) and 4 parts of water applied with a tint brush...right after I got some cinnamon powder and I spreaded nice on top of my head and lenght,wet again with more honey and water...I don't feel any burning sensation on my scalp at all...let's see what comes out,I want to resist as much as I can.Ah...I forgot to say that I covered my head with a shower cap and a towel...so now I am sitting in front of the computer to wait.
I CO before putting the mix on my head.
I know that I won't get blonde out of this and that the process is slow..that is ok for me,I just like to sugar my hair a lot and see the beautiful highlights.:D

[ktani]

ktani I couldn't help, it has been over an hour that I have another honey treatement on my head.What I did was just the 1 part of honey(cloves) and 4 parts of water applied with a tint brush...right after I got some cinnamon powder and I spreaded nice on top of my head and lenght,wet again with more honey and water...I don't feel any burning sensation on my scalp at all...let's see what comes out,I want to resist as much as I can.Ah...I forgot to say that I covered my head with a shower cap and a towel...so now I am sitting in front of the computer to wait.
I CO before putting the mix on my head.
I know that I won't get blonde out of this and that the process is slow..that is ok for me,I just like to sugar my hair a lot and see the beautiful highlights.:D

Sissilonghair

Good luck! The recipe dilution sounds just right. The minimum suggest amount of honey is 1/8th cup or 10 grams.

Shampooing the hair is better IMO, than CO'ing before a treatment - you can CO the treatment out of your hair.

I am confused by "1 part of honey(cloves)" - did you add cloves?

Cloves is an irritant spice with a very low peroxide value - I do not recommend it.

It could just be a language problem - English is my only language - and I have problems expressing myself with it sometimes, lol.

Patch test cardamom - it is a better choice IMO, than cinnamon but it can cause sensitivity too - it has been reported to wash out of the hair better than cinnamon if you are not sensitive to it.

I am very glad to read that you are not having irritation problems with cinnamon and that using the tint brush worked well for you.

I am also confused by how you added the cinnamon - IMO, it is best mixed into a recipe after the honey has been added.

See if you can get some distilled water to use for your treatments - I recommend it to help get a better result.

[Sissilonghair]

Sorry ktani, I meant clover . That was a big mistake confusing cloves with clover....

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

No worries - I have done worse, lol.

[Sissilonghair]

ktani...what can you tell me about saffron? Would it be ok to use it in the mix instead of the cinnamon?

[BrianaFineHair]

I'm doing dd(14) hair now. She's a member here but never gets on. I'm using a dark honey with the 4:1 ratio with regular water. I have no distilled water. I also added 1 Tbsp of evo. DD feels a bit sticky but she keeps licking the solution!!! LOL!!!

She's just got a towel wrapped around her - no plastic wrap or bag. I decided to do this way so I can tell when I need to mist her hair. She is soaked in honey/water/evo solution. I told her to pretend she's at a high end spa! LOL!

We'll see...

I took a before picture. I will take an after and post it in my photo album. I'll leave the link here.

[chloeishere]

I am not active in this thread much anymore... but for people who are interested in "bulking," could they try shea butter? My only concern is that the shea wouldn't mix with the water (which is a pretty valid concern :D), I think the only reason they mixed for me was because of the emulsifying ingredients in the conditioner. My shea was also warmed up in order to make it liquidy-- perhaps using warm water and putting a bowl of shea into it would work, without raising the temperature enough to negatively impact the honey enzymes.

I did see a big lightening boost with the shea, though.

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

Saffron contains catalase - which turns hydrogen peroxide into oxygen and water - not a good idea for a honey lightening recipe.
http://www.rmsb.u-bordeaux2.fr/BTK/abstracts/25-KeyhaniJ.pdf

I do not recommend using saffron.

[ktani]

BrianaFineHair

Thank you for posting the recipe you used.

You will need to keep her hair wet - not moist or damp throughout the hour - without using the plastic.

Good luck!

[BrianaFineHair]

BrianaFineHair

Thank you for posting the recipe you used.

You will need to keep her hair wet - not moist or damp throughout the hour - without using the plastic.

Good luck!

She's dripping and I'm misting.

The reason I did not want to use the cling wrap is I feel it would be harder to tell when she is drying, thus needing more mist. All of the unwrapping...wrapping back...just seems like more trouble.

[ktani]

chloeishere

I remember your results and I reread the posts - you got some nice lightening using Fox's shea butter recipe, which contains 1 parts shea butter.

However, shea butter alone did not work out for someone else who tried it at 50:50 shea butter to honey with added water - there was a problem with the condition of the hair and not much lightening.

You accidently lightened your hair even more - you add extra conditioner to your recipe.

I agree with you - conditioner provided extra water that diluted the honey.

Honey and conditioner was reported to work to lighten hair in a number of cases.

The results however do not compare to the reported results of the 4 to 1 dilution without the added bulk, IMO.

I do not recommend heating a honey lightening recipe at any time to any degree or bulking it up.

Heat can negatively affect peroxide and lower the amount even if it does not completely decompose it.

Anything that replaces a part of the 4 parts water of the dilution, shortens the amount needed to get the maximum peroxide level of the honey.

[BrianaFineHair]

I wonder, IF there were a way, to recline back in a chair (like at the salon) and just completely soak your head for an hour in the basin full of the mixture or have someone constantly running the mixture through your hair while reclined catching the run off in the basin. While at it, get a pedicure or manucure...maybe a facial. :D

I'm just thinking...

[ktani]

She's dripping and I'm misting.

The reason I did not want to use the cling wrap is I feel it would be harder to tell when she is drying, thus needing more mist. All of the unwrapping...wrapping back...just seems like more trouble.

BrianaFineHair

You are confusing 2 distinct honey lightening methods.

Wrapping the hair in plastic after a 4 parts water to 1 part honey recipe is applied to the hair ensures a constant moisture level for the hour and does not need to be unwrapped until the hour is over.

Misting the hair without the use of plastic to keep the hair wet during the hour is another option.

I recommend the plastic bag or wrap - it provides an uninterruped moisture level that allows the recipe to do its work.

[Alley Cat]

I wonder, IF there were a way, to recline back in a chair (like at the salon) and just completely soak your head for an hour in the basin full of the mixture or have someone constantly running the mixture through your hair while reclined catching the run off in the basin. While at it, get a pedicure or manucure...maybe a facial. :D

I'm just thinking...
If I did that I would need a trip to the physio after to fix a sore neck. ;)
I have thought about lying in a bath for an hour , but who has an hour to waste lying in a bath. :shrug:

[ktani]

I wonder, IF there were a way, to recline back in a chair (like at the salon) and just completely soak your head for an hour in the basin full of the mixture or have someone constantly running the mixture through your hair while reclined catching the run off in the basin. While at it, get a pedicure or manucure...maybe a facial. :D

I'm just thinking...

BrianaFineHair

That would be possible - not the most practical idea for most people, but possible - provided the hair was kept wet at the top the whole time.

I still think the plastic bag or wrap is the best method.

[BrianaFineHair]

Will do the wrap next time then. It's less messy, I'm sure, but being 14 she's enjoying it...oddly enough.

[BrianaFineHair]

If I did that I would need a trip to the physio after to fix a sore neck. ;)
I have thought about lying in a bath for an hour , but who has an hour to waste lying in a bath. :shrug:

HAHA! I can not imagine how much honey I would need! :p

[ktani]

Will do the wrap next time then. It's less messy, I'm sure, but being 14 she's enjoying it...oddly enough.

BrianaFineHair

I am not the least surprised that she is enjoying it but not for the reasons you think she might.

Quality time with her mom, IMO.

[Alley Cat]

HAHA! I can not imagine how much honey I would need! :p

Ha that's funny, I meant sitting up with my hair wrapped up but yes lying in a bath full of honey and water you would need gallons of the stuff hey. :rollin:

[BrianaFineHair]

BrianaFineHair

I am not the least surprised that she is enjoying it but not for the reasons you think she might.

Quality time with her mom, IMO.

That is very true :) I'm enjoying it too.

[ktani]

That is very true :) I'm enjoying it too.


Now that is what I call a lovely side effect of honey lightening.

[BrianaFineHair]

:) Mom's of teens don't always get that quality time with their DD.

Ok, so the sun has gone down below the tree line and no after pictures until tomorrow. She did not wash all of the evo out! She wanted me to put in soft curlers, but I told her not to expect much because she did not get all the oil out. She said she washed twice and did a vinegar rinse. I never know how well she's washing her hair. She uses the CV nettle shampoo bar.

Until tomorrow with pics ...

[ktani]

:) Mom's of teens don't always get that quality time with their DD.

Ok, so the sun has gone down below the tree line and no after pictures until tomorrow. She did not wash all of the evo out! She wanted me to put in soft curlers, but I told her not to expect much because she did not get all the oil out. She said she washed twice and did a vinegar rinse. I never know how well she's washing her hair. She uses the CV nettle shampoo bar.

Until tomorrow with pics ...

BrianaFineHair

Well then - in your case honey lightening is serving 2 purposes - IMO - the quality time with your DD is more important than the lightening results - but I do look forward to your pictures and report.

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

Saffron contains catalase - which turns hydrogen peroxide into oxygen and water - not a good idea for a honey lightening recipe.
http://www.rmsb.u-bordeaux2.fr/BTK/abstracts/25-KeyhaniJ.pdf

I do not recommend using saffron.
Thank you ktani,I know I can use cardamom...and whatelse:confused:??

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

Saffron contains catalase - which turns hydrogen peroxide into oxygen and water - not a good idea for a honey lightening recipe.
http://www.rmsb.u-bordeaux2.fr/BTK/abstracts/25-KeyhaniJ.pdf

I do not recommend using saffron.
I know I can use cardamom...is there any other spices??

[Sissilonghair]

I am not active in this thread much anymore... but for people who are interested in "bulking," could they try shea butter? My only concern is that the shea wouldn't mix with the water (which is a pretty valid concern :D), I think the only reason they mixed for me was because of the emulsifying ingredients in the conditioner. My shea was also warmed up in order to make it liquidy-- perhaps using warm water and putting a bowl of shea into it would work, without raising the temperature enough to negatively impact the honey enzymes.

I did see a big lightening boost with the shea, though.
Yes ,I know about people that experienced lightning their hair with shea butter,but I am not sure if you can use it in the mix...
ktani will give us an explanation(please??);)

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

The honey lightening boosters are all listed here - there are only 2 recommended spices. Other spices were researched and tried - this is the result.

"3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; cardamom, cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritatiing - less is more with the 4 to 1 dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon. "
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146293&postcount=1174

After going over her posts again in the older Honey thread - I believe that the accidental extra lightening chloeishere got was from adding extra conditioner to her recipe - the recipe choeishere used had a shea butter/conditioner/oil mix in it - that increased the dilution - enabling the honey to produce more peroxide - not the shea butter.

Shea butter proved to be a problem used in a honey lighteing recipe on its own - it was reported by someone else to leave the hair sticky, was difficult to wash out and was not reported to produce much lightening.

I do not recommend shea butter for the recipes.

The 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution has been reported to dilute honey more effectivley than conditioner - without the possible problems conditioner can cause.

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening.

This is the Successful Honey's list - if you cannot find one where you are - try a dark coloured honey blend.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Avoid these honeys - they contain high levels of Vitamin C - Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

[ktani]

A Comprehensive Summary of the newest honey lightening recommendations. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread.

1. The 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. With this dilution, a treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour, because a honey will produce its maximum amount of peroxide in that time. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion table - See "Convert cup of honey into grams g, ounces oz or tablespoons." Use 4 times the amount of water by weight, e.g. 40 grams water to 10 grams of honey. You can also convert to ml, because 1 gram = 1 ml.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html
According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the 4 to 1 dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using the old dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List - if one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the 4 to 1 dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.

4. Herbal teas if used instead of straight distilled water - chamomile - Roman chamomile is preferable but it is possible that chamomile can add a gold tone to the hair. Mullein - leaves only not flowers - the leaves are not known to add colour. The herbal tea should be brewed with distilled water.

5. Herbal tea that is used with honey lightening needs to be cooled first to room temperature before any other ingredients are added to it. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into herbal tea, when the honey is added first.

6. For blondes, lighter hair colours, and hair colours where one does not want the possibility of added colour, distilled water is better than risking added colour by using herbal tea.

7. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

8. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients except herbal tea should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide by decomposing it to water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=883 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883)

9. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except gound cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=429 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

10. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

11. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening and because of its water content (most conditioners are between 70 to 90 % water), if used as part of the 4 to 1 ratio, shorten the amount of water needed for optimal honey dilution. You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinsing it out. If there is honey residue, shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

12. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

13. Cover the hair during the 1 hour needed for the treatments, with plastic, a bag, wrap or shower cap, to ensure the best results. This provides a constant moisture level, and allows the honey to produce peroxide uninterrupted. If the hair starts to dry, the honey slows its production of peroxide and it will stop producing peroxide altogether, if the hair dries completely. An option is misting the hair without the use of plastic, provided that the hair is kept wet at all times during the treatment. Honey only produces peroxide when diluted and kept wet. The treatments can be left on the hair longer than 1 hour, if so desired. You can also let a recipe sit for 1 hour before applying it, to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value.

14. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing and or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and or vinegar are used. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1035 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035)

15. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

[Sissilonghair]

I will never thank you enough ktani for all the info you give to all of us:applause
You are a very special person :flower:

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

You are most welcome.

And as I have said before - thanks to all of you who test the recipes and report on honey lightening - without you there would be no Honey threads and no recommendations - just research information.

I learn from all of you through your reports.

[ktani]

So far no one has reported in on trying this recommendation.

"12. Covering the hair during the 1 only hour needed for the treatments with plastic - a bag or wrap - is recommended to ensure the best results. This provides a constant moisture level, that allows the honey to produce peroxide uninterrupted. If the hair starts to dry - the honey slows its production of peroxide and it will stop producing peroxide altogether, if the hair dries completely. An option is misting the hair without the use of plastic, provided that the hair is kept wet at all times during the treatment. Honey only produces peroxide when diluted and kept wet. The treatments can be left on the hair longer than 1 hour, if so desired. You can also let a recipe sit for 1 hour before applying it - to allow the honey to produce its maximum peroxide value."

The recommendation is valid, IMO. It is based on the same source - the research - that gave me the idea about the 4 to 1 dilution, the Vitamin C and the distilled water.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

It means that from the time that you first apply a recipe - the honey peroxide is at full strength.

You may if you try it this way - need less than an hour for a treatment - although 1 hour is fine and recommended.

It may also mean that the hair does then not need to be covered or misted - just left on the hair to dry after the hair has been fully saturated - because the honey peroxide is already at its full strength - this is untested - unknown results at this point.

[ktani]

I looked at commercial hydrogen peroxide gels.

The idea being that once the honey lightening recipe is at full strength - then add thickener.

However - it gets complicated doing that.

Here is information on commercially thickened hydrogen peroxide gel formulas.

"Poly(2-ethyl-2-oxazoline) is commercially available .... viscosities and longevity of gels may be created based on the amount and weight of Poly(2-ethyl-2-oxazoline) used and the desired strength of peroxide. .... peroxide concentrations may reach up to 50% hydrogen peroxide ..... Additional strengths of peroxide gels .... obtained by utilizing additional solvents and different molecular weights of Poly(2-ethyl-2-oxazoline) .... common solvents include: water, ethanol, polyethylene glycols, polypropylene glycols, glycerin, and propylene glycol .... .... each gel must be developed with .... basic limitation .... strength of the peroxide in the gel makes the gel .... more unstable"
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/70183987.html

Thickening a honey lightening recipe would have limitations and be difficult - I still do not advise it.



Natural thickeners I looked at were all potentially problematic - they contained catalase or Vitamin C or had some other complication - and if used before the recipe had produced its maximum peroxide could interfere with the needed dilution.

"due to the volatile oxidizing nature of peroxide .... very few thickeners .... withstand a peroxide environment. Most polymers .... degrade quickly in a peroxide environment .... lose their thickening properties entirely due to the powerful oxidizing effects of peroxide. These gels will degrade into thin, water-type consistencies .... rare to find a polymer .... can withstand .... powerful effects of peroxide .....
Chemists .... produced adducts of hydrogen peroxide to stabilize .... final concentration of hydrogen peroxide in .... resultant compound .... main adducts of hydrogen peroxide .... for bleaching are: urea hydrogen peroxide .... sodium perborate .... sodium percarbonate .... dilution of hydrogen peroxide by any means .... reduces the bleaching efficacy of resultant gels."
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/70183987.html

[Sissilonghair]

I have another question for you ktani...
I was reading on the forum that once a girl bleached her hair using cinnamon bark oil in the mister.
Now what do you think putting a couple drops of essential cinnamon bark oil in the honey/distilled water mix??:eyebrows:

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

I believe that you are mistaken - the cinnamon oil in the mister was not reported to lighten hair - if it is the same source - the person switched to ground cinnamon mixed with conditioner and then got some lightening over a long period of time.

Cinnamon oil is a powerful irritant. It is used in very very small amounts in perfumes for that very reason and has been reported to still cause sensitivity.

I do not advise using it - it is not necessary and may cause problems.

I did a long search a while back and found no peroxide value listed for cinnamon oil nor any evidense or mention in any text or any reference to it lightening hair.

I did find this on the net and posted it early in this thread.
Fokti honey cinnamon results
http://public.fotki.com/kittikat24/my-cinnamon-highlig/my-cinnamon-highlights!/

Ground cinnamon has an excellent peroxide value and has been reported to work successfully in honey lightening recipes, in this thread, in a number of cases in 1 hour. See pictures and read details in the links.

"14. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

[Alley Cat]

I have done the recommendation of letting the water and honey sit for an hour before applying then leaving it on for an hour. I also left some mixture and after 1/2 an hour put some more on so it was really wet. I did that over the weekend. I plan another treatment probably later today and plan to do the same thing as my hair stayed really wet.
I pretty much am applying every time I wash my hair. I have the problem that I have grey coming in at the temples and I want to colour my hair soon as I don't like having grey hair but still want to get my hair lighter so I am holding off. I also think if I colour then lighten I will be lightening what I colour. A bit of a dilemma :confused:
I can see my hair is lightening more so at the back than at the front or maybe it is my perception. I did try to take some photo's but the light wasn't right and I didn't like the way my hair looked so vanity wouldn't let me post them. :rolleyes:

[ktani]

I have done the recommendation of letting the water and honey sit for an hour before applying then leaving it on for an hour. I also left some mixture and after 1/2 an hour put some more on so it was really wet. I did that over the weekend. I plan another treatment probably later today and plan to do the same thing as my hair stayed really wet.
I pretty much am applying every time I wash my hair. I have the problem that I have grey coming in at the temples and I want to colour my hair soon as I don't like having grey hair but still want to get my hair lighter so I am holding off. I also think if I colour then lighten I will be lightening what I colour. A bit of a dilemma :confused:
I can see my hair is lightening more so at the back than at the front or maybe it is my perception. I did try to take some photo's but the light wasn't right and I didn't like the way my hair looked so vanity wouldn't let me post them. :rolleyes:

Alley Cat

Great - thank you for letting me know.

If you are not using plastic, the front and top may be drying faster than the length - natural body heat - keep that part as wet as you can during the time the treatment is on.

No worries about pictures - when you can is fine.

See what colour you get after a while - then you can cover the grey when you are ready - perhaps with a lighter shade than you would have before honey lightening.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Great - thank you for letting me know.

If you are not using plastic, the front and top may be drying faster than the length - natural body heat - keep that part as wet as you can during the time the treatment is on.

No worries about pictures - when you can is fine.

See what colour you get after a while - then you can cover the grey when you are ready - perhaps with a lighter shade than you would have before honey lightening.

I am using plastic but maybe it was still drying faster or like I said maybe it was my perception or maybe it was darker to start with .
Your idea on the colouring is a good idea, thanks for that. :)

[ktani]

Alley Cat

You are welcome.

[ktani]

Alley Cat

Actually - I am forgetting myself.

It may not be necessaey to keep the hair wet since you let the treatment sit for 1 hour before applying it - it may be enough just to let it dry.

I am unsure of this - reapplying more cannot hurt IMO.

I am very interested in how this goes - you may not need the plastic either - the treatment after sitting for 1 hour should be at full strength.

[mommy2one05]

So is the honey lightening permanent?
i know the tea rinses and such that help darken the color...once the color is achieved then you have to keep doing it weekly
Can you notice a difference after just one application?

[ktani]

mommy2one05

Yes, honey lightening is reported to be permanent and yes a change can and has been reported take place in one treatment.

Here are the current recommendations to get the best results. See #14 for pictures and details.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

[mommy2one05]

ktani - thanks I am thinking of trying this but I think I will try the misting way. Since my last hair coloring a few weeks ago that is still too dark...the top has lightened some but the ends are still really dark.

[ktani]

mommy2one05

Good luck and please let me know how it goes.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

Actually - I am forgetting myself.

It may not be necessaey to keep the hair wet since you let the treatment sit for 1 hour before applying it - it may be enough just to let it dry.

I am unsure of this - reapplying more cannot hurt IMO.

I am very interested in how this goes - you may not need the plastic either - the treatment after sitting for 1 hour should be at full strength.
Oh I see. But I am happy to continue this way for now, and also I need the plastic to cover it I can't walk around the house dripping like that it would go everywhere. :bigeyes:

[ktani]

Alley Cat

I see no problem with that - and it makes perfect sense.

I am just giving you options.

[Alley Cat]

Alley Cat

I see no problem with that - and it makes perfect sense.

I am just giving you options.
That's ok, not a problem:)

[Sissilonghair]

I just want to report about my last honey treatment,well ...I want to say that I noticed that my hair got thicker..as you can see from my last report,I just applied a mix of distilled water and honey to my entire hair then I got cinnamon powder and I was spreading it all over with a tint brush.
I waited almost 2 hrs. then I washed my hair good with water only, because I CO before the treatment.
I made sure that all the honey and the cinnamon was gone...
I can't tell you if my hair got really lighter,but I can tell that when it was dry I had a big shock of hair .This is nice for me that I have fine hair:D

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

I believe that you are mistaken - the cinnamon oil in the mister was not reported to lighten hair - if it is the same source - the person switched to ground cinnamon mixed with conditioner and then got some lightening over a long period of time.

Cinnamon oil is a powerful irritant. It is used in very very small amounts in perfumes for that very reason and has been reported to still cause sensitivity.

I do not advise using it - it is not necessary and may cause problems.


I did a long search a while back and found no peroxide value listed for cinnamon oil nor any evidense or mention in any text or any reference to it lightening hair.

I did find this on the net and posted it early in this thread.
Fokti honey cinnamon results
http://public.fotki.com/kittikat24/my-cinnamon-highlig/my-cinnamon-highlights!/

Ground cinnamon has an excellent peroxide value and has been reported to work successfully in honey lightening recipes, in this thread, in a number of cases in 1 hour. See pictures and read details in the links.

"14. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095
Please give a look at:
"Holy Moly I accidentally bleached my hair with cinnamon".
The girl I am talking to is Aine and she used cinnamon bark oil(I don't know how much) in a mister,not to spray her hair but simply for the scent,and a llittle deposit on her hair accidentally...

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

I am glad for you that your hair feels thicker.

You are fortunate that with the cinnamon applied after you applied the treatment to your hair that you have had no irritation problems - the recommended method is to mix the cinnamon into the treatment before applying it to the hair and it has been reported to work the best that way in this thread.

I and sorry to hear that you did not get lightening - perhaps you should change honeys - to a dark coloured blend.

I read what you requested - please reread it.

[Sissilonghair]

Maybe I did not get the lightning because I CO before the treatment...or maybe my hair just turn to an auburn/orangey kind of colour ,I don't know.
Next time I will have a diluite shampoo before the treatment,would it be ok? I am so used to CO...

[ktani]

Maybe I did not get the lightning because I CO before the treatment...or maybe my hair just turn to an auburn/orangey kind of colour ,I don't know.
Next time I will have a diluite shampoo before the treatment,would it be ok? I am so used to CO...

Sissilonghair

Try the shampoo before your next treatment - excellent idea.

You can CO the treatment out if you like or just rinse or use a vinegar rinse.

I do not know the actual colour of your starting hair colour.

Then if you feel that there is still no lightening - try a different honey.

You may want to take pictures of your hair colour to compare for yourself - a number of times people reported that they did not notice much of a change until they saw their own pictures - we tend to get used to changes on ourselves quickly.

[ktani]

I should have the Jarrah honey suppliers sorted out sometime this week and posted.

There are 4 of them.

[Sissilonghair]

Sissilonghair

Try the shampoo before your next treatment - excellent idea.

You can CO the treatment out if you like or just rinse or use a vinegar rinse.

I do not know the actual colour of your starting hair colour.

Then if you feel that there is still no lightening - try a different honey.

You may want to take pictures of your hair colour to compare for yourself - a number of times people reported that they did not notice much of a change until they saw their own pictures - we tend to get used to changes on ourselves quickly.
In other words... you are telling me that I can CO then use an ACV rinse and then apply the honey mix ??That would be great:D
I just want to know if I understood your directions...:o
Anyway it is not the end of the world if I have to use shampoo once in a while ,it would be only because of the treatment.
See..since I CO I can't do without it ,I just like it.
And..yes I know I should use a camera to post a picture of my hair.
I do have one ,I guess I am too lazy:rolleyes:
But I promise I will try to work on it...
About the kind of honey,I am going to make a list of the kinds sold in my country...

[ktani]

In other words... you are telling me that I can CO then use an ACV rinse and then apply the honey mix ??That would be great:D
I just want to know if I understood your directions...:o
Anyway it is not the end of the world if I have to use shampoo once in a while ,it would be only because of the treatment.
See..since I CO I can't do without it ,I just like it.
And..yes I know I should use a camera to post a picture of my hair.
I do have one ,I guess I am too lazy:rolleyes:
But I promise I will try to work on it...
About the kind of honey,I am going to make a list of the kinds sold in my country...

Sissilonghair

Not exactly - I am suggestiong to wash your hair with shampoo before the honey lightening treatment - you said that you think that you might have not gotten lightening because you CO'd first.

Then you can CO the treatment out of your hair after the hour instead of just rinsing the treatment out or shampooing if you like - and if necessary - use a vinegar rinse only if you feel that there is honey residue.

The pictures are for yourself - for you to judge lightening - although all pictures are welcome here - anytime.

[Sissilonghair]

Ok then,I got it:)),thanks as always ktani:))

[ktani]

Sissilonghair

You are most welcome - sorry if I was not clear the first time.

[ktani]

I have added the honey lightening recommendations to the Articles section of the boards.

It is the same recommendations post that I have here in this thread.

Because the process requires approval - the Article is not up yet for viewing - and I cannot tell if all of the links work - they should - but I have had problems reposting them before.

When the Article is up - if it is approved as an article - I will check the links and replace those that do not work.

[ktani]

In the honey lightening recommendations, I had said that the minimum amount of honey to be used is 1/8th cup or 10 grams.

I got the 10 grams from here.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

I then converted that to a cup measurement - however 1/8th cup depends on what you are measuring - and when I double-checked that, I got various answers.

So - I changed all versions of the recommendations post to just read 10 grams for the minimum.

You need to use 4 times the amount of water to whatever amount of honey you are using. That is what you need to remember for the optimal honey lightening dilution, IMO.