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morgwn
May 18th, 2008, 12:53 PM
It worked - she got the extra conditioning, lighter hair and no colour from the cassia.

That's what I needed to confirm. :) I am going to be doing another cassia treatment in another couple weeks, so I'll use that method and try and get my DHTB to take some before and after photos. For both my sake as well as to post; I really can't tell differences very easily just looking in the mirror!

Thanks a bunch for answering my tonne of questions. :)

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 12:58 PM
morgwn

I do not know if firebird got the same amount of conditioning from the honey lightening treatment with cassia as she did from cassia alone.

firebird?

firebird
May 18th, 2008, 01:12 PM
ktani and morgwn - yes, I definitely think I got good conditioning from my honey/cassia/etc mixture. Actually, I think the condition of my hair with my mixture was better than cassia alone - when I have just used cassia, my hair has needed a few days to 'recover' from initial dryness, but with my mixture, it is great immediately and has just as much added shine and thickness. It also washes off *much* more easily than straight cassia (I can do it in a shower with no problems, I have never felt the need to 'mermaid soak' as recommended in the cassia thread). I think the amount of EVOO is very dependent on your individual hair, I had to experiment until I found an amount which didn't leave an oily residue. However, even when there was a residue, the next wash (shampoo) it was gone, so no big deal, and since EVOO is good for hair, I don't think it caused any problems at all. From my experiments, I would never do straight cassia again, when I can do the cassia/honey etc mixture - great results and much easier! With the cassia/honey treatment, I usually leave it a little longer than an hour as I am anxious not to waste my efforts with the cassia, also it's a pain for me as I only have a fixed showerhead and so have to get in the shower each time I do my hair. I'm sure ktani is right and only an hour would work though, but more time doesn't do any harm lol!

Anyway, ktani is absolutely right in that if you don't want it to darken your hair, don't allow it to release dye - no acid and no waiting before putting it on your hair.

Hope this helped, and good luck morgwn, I look forward to your pictures (they definitely really help in seeing a difference in your hair)!

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 01:17 PM
firebird

Thank you so much for replying to my shout out.

I can always count on you to be helpful.

I can count on others too but I am referring to your help as usual right now.

firebird
May 18th, 2008, 01:24 PM
ktani, you're welcome, I'm glad I could help :)

Morgwn - just to recap, my mixture for non-darkening cassia was:

2 tablespoons honey
8 tablespoons water
2 tablespoons cinnamon
1 tablespoon EVOO
25g cassia

This was plenty for my hair - IMO you won't need any more cassia than this, from your profile, your hair seems fairly similar to mine, so it should work fine, I really hope it does!

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 01:26 PM
Just an added note here for firebird and morgwn.

For a honey lightening treatment with cassia I would not use chamomile tea.

Its pH is not too acidic but just to be on the safe side - leave it out of the recipe, to help avoid any colour from the cassia.

morgwn
May 18th, 2008, 01:31 PM
firebird, thanks for your reply and clarification on this point. I really appreciate it. I just did a cassia treatment a few days back, so I'm not due for another couple weeks, but I'll post back on here when I do try this recipe out. Judging from the fact that you've got a similar length to mine and similar volume, I think I'll try the same amounts which you did for the first time. My whurls will suck up that amount of EVOO, I'm pretty sure.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 01:34 PM
morgwn

Please see my post just above yours - just in case - I think I posted while you were composing your reply.

KajiKodomo
May 18th, 2008, 01:36 PM
I meant to reply to say that my haircolor didn't change much with one application of Mellie's Mix.

I completely forgot the cinnamon until after I applied the mixture to my hair and just put it on top. It did burn, so I won't forget next time. Haha!

I think my hair is slightly less harshly black, but it's not a big enough difference to count as results, imo.

Here's a picture though.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=633&pictureid=12543

It's still black, but it seems a little softer to me. You can also see in this picture the color difference between my natural color and the black. The funny shorter pieces in the back is an undercut that I'm in the process of growing out, but it shows the color difference wonderfully.

I may try the recipe again sometime, as I still have ingredients to do another one. It did smell wonderful and wasn't too much of a hassle. My only issue was getting all of the bits of cinnamon out, as I *still* have some in my hair. :rolleyes: I'm hoping that will be a little easier to take care of when everything is mixed together beforehand.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 01:52 PM
I meant to reply to say that my haircolor didn't change much with one application of Mellie's Mix.

I completely forgot the cinnamon until after I applied the mixture to my hair and just put it on top. It did burn, so I won't forget next time. Haha!

I think my hair is slightly less harshly black, but it's not a big enough difference to count as results, imo.

Here's a picture though.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=633&pictureid=12543

It's still black, but it seems a little softer to me. You can also see in this picture the color difference between my natural color and the black. The funny shorter pieces in the back is an undercut that I'm in the process of growing out, but it shows the color difference wonderfully.

I may try the recipe again sometime, as I still have ingredients to do another one. It did smell wonderful and wasn't too much of a hassle. My only issue was getting all of the bits of cinnamon out, as I *still* have some in my hair. :rolleyes: I'm hoping that will be a little easier to take care of when everything is mixed together beforehand.

KajiKodomo

It took 2 treatments with Mellie's Mix, both without cinnamon or any added peroxide booster, for nayver to lighten her naturally black hair.

IMO, if you forget the cinnamon in a honey lightening treatment, - forget about it completely and do not apply it on top of the treatment - it is not worth feeling the burn - pun intended.

I do not take what happened to you lightly - you are lucky that your reaction was not worse, although no lasting problems with cinnamon irritation have been reported.

Thank you so much for posting your results and picture.

You might want to consider a mix of cinnamon and cardamom, or cardamom alone, well mixed into the treatment before it is applied next time as you said, perhaps with a bit of extra virgin olive oil as well if you want to add peroxide boosters.

Not too much spice though - with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, you can use less than you otherwise might need to get results.

I am glad for you to read that you think that the black colour has softened up somewhat.

Good luck with your next treatment.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 02:29 PM
firebird

I know that the honey lightening treatment with cassia worked beautifully for you the way that you did it.

The only other precaution I recommend aside from no chamomile tea in the treatment for both you and morgwn, is as I posted for her, just before you add the cassia, premix it with some water.

That should help ensure that any acidity from the honey, which is already diluted 4 x its amount with water, will not affect it.

morgwn
May 18th, 2008, 02:59 PM
Ktani, you've been such a help! I have noted all your precautions and advice on this matter and am taking advantage of your experience and research alongside firebird's experience. :)

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 03:17 PM
morgwn

You are most welcome.

The other problem with that recipe you found is that the honey added to it is undiluted.

When firebird did that with her cassia previously, the cassia added red/gold tones to her hair.

I do not know how much of that result was the orange juice, or the combination of the orange juice and honey and letting the cassia sit to dye release but the research is clear - chrysophanic acid, the main pigment of cassia, is sensitive to acids and can yield a whole range of colours.

See # 290 “Chrysophanic acid .... from all sources …. orange-red with sulphuric acid, yellow with nitric acid, and a yellow solution ...."
http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleForFree.cfm?doi=AN9154000287&JournalCode=AN

IMO, it is better to be safe than sorry and have to undo unwanted colour results.

Just to clarify - I do not use cassia - but I have read on these boards that cassia can leave a brassy tone on the hair, especially on blonde hair. I got curious as to how and why it did that and researched it.

The research I did - the experience - that is firebird's in this case.

Bunnyears
May 18th, 2008, 03:33 PM
Hi all again:)
So yesterday I put this mix mostly concentrating on my 2 inch roots:
2 oz honey
4 parts water
1/2 tbsp cinnamon
dash of olive oil

I left it on my hair for 3 hours, constantly rewetting it. It wasn't dripping wet the whole time, but it felt moist enough. Sadly, it didn't lighten my hair at all :( I wonder if I should use more honey next time? 4 ounces, instead of 2 ounces? Is it too soon to try this again tonight? What should I do differently this time to make it effective? Thanks!!!!

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 03:43 PM
Hi all again:)
So yesterday I put this mix mostly concentrating on my 2 inch roots:
2 oz honey
4 parts water
1/2 tbsp cinnamon
dash of olive oil

I left it on my hair for 3 hours, constantly rewetting it. It wasn't dripping wet the whole time, but it felt moist enough. Sadly, it didn't lighten my hair at all :( I wonder if I should use more honey next time? 4 ounces, instead of 2 ounces? Is it too soon to try this again tonight? What should I do differently this time to make it effective? Thanks!!!!

Bunnyears

Thank you for reporting your recipe and results.

I am sorry to read that the treatment has not worked for you so far.

Did you use 8 oz of water?

If you did it might be the honey - some honeys just do not produce that much peroxide.

More of the wrong honey will not help.

The dilution needs to be 4 x the amount of water to the amount of honey used - the minimum amount of honey to be used - 1/8th cup or 10 grams.

Try a different honey - a cheap dark coloured blend and cover your hair with plastic - your hair should not feel moist - it should be wet - the whole time - and you should only need 1 hour to see results.

Covering your hair with plastic - a bag is the easiest IMO, is preferable to not covering it and misting it occassionally.

You are guessing as to how much water to add to compensate for the natural evaporation of the water, when you do that.

As the water evaporates and the treatment starts to dry, the honey slows its rate of peroxide production - if the hair dries - the honey stops producing peroxide.

In the research on honey and wounds - after honey has been applied to an open wound to disinfect and help heal it, the wound is covered.

This not only protects it IMO, it also keeps the wound wet inside so that the honey can keep producing peroxide non stop.

I have not read about a wound being left open and misted every once in a while to keep it wet, while honey is on it.

"Although it may be very viscous or even solid at room temperature, honey .... very fluid at body temperature and even more fluid if diluted with .... volumes of exudate. It is therefore very important that sufficient honey is applied to a wound .... kept in place if a good therapeutic effect is to be obtained."
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

The theraputic effect discussed is from the main antibacterial component of the honey - the hydrogen peroxide.

As I posted earlier today, a wound produces its own fluid, hair does not - so the honey needs to be very well diluted before it is applied to the hair - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey, and kept wet.

You can do honey lightening as often as you wish.

Other than honey residue dryness, which can be resolved with shampooing or a vinegar rinse, no negative effects to the hair have been reported.

firebird
May 18th, 2008, 04:33 PM
firebird

I know that the honey lightening treatment with cassia worked beautifully for you the way that you did it.

The only other precaution I recommend aside from no chamomile tea in the treatment for both you and morgwn, is as I posted for her, just before you add the cassia, premix it with some water.

That should help ensure that any acidity from the honey, which is already diluted 4 x its amount with water, will not affect it.

Thanks ktani! I'll do that next time :)

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 04:35 PM
firebird

You are welcome.

While I have you online, did you ever try cassia with just orange juice, no honey and what if any colour result did you get?

I keep forgetting to ask you this.

And have you always let cassia sit for dye release previously?

firebird
May 18th, 2008, 05:19 PM
ktani - yes, I have tried just cassia and orange juice in the past, and I have always let it sit for dye release first. However, it was before I really came on LHC much, and I don't remember noticing a change in colour. I find it hard to tell differences though without doing photos! So I'm afraid I can't really help you much with the effects of cassia on my hair before. Also, before my experiment with the red dye, which led to the blonde dye on the length of my hair, all my hair was virgin, therefore as dark as my new growth in the original 'before' picture I posted. Maybe then it was dark enough not to have much change in colour? I'm sorry I can't be more helpful!

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 05:28 PM
firebird

You have been more helpful than you realize, IMO.

If your previous cassia treatments had affected your hair colour in a major way - like when the treatments did before this last one, and you first noticed the red tones, others would have commented.

Yes, it can be difficult to perceive your own colour sometimes without pictures but I recall, that when you first noticed the red/gold in your hair, that others noticed it too.

So I think that your previous cassia mixes with orange juice alone did not yield as noticeable a colour change even if they did yield one.

Which means to me, that the undiluted honey mixed with the orange juice, tipped the cassia's acidity just enough to alert you as well as others to the change in colour, which while it may be more noticeable on your previously dyed blonde length was still very noticeable on your virgin regrowth, that is not that dark.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

I think that if your previous cassia results were such a red/gold tone, the colour would have been noticed on your natural colour too.

firebird
May 18th, 2008, 06:19 PM
ktani, yes, you are right, I had not thought of it in that way. That's really interesting how the addition of honey in my more recent mixture could have affected the colour like this. It would be interesting to do a cassia/orange juice mixture now and take pictures!

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 06:22 PM
firebird

LOL, well you now know how to remedy it, whichever way it goes.

And you would have to do that as a separate cassia treatment - if you add the orange juice mixed cassia to a honey lightening treatment - the Vitamin C in the orange juice will affect the peroxide in the honey and the EVOO, lowering the recipe peroxide level.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 09:53 PM
I posted this in another thread but it is relevant to Honey because it is report on how Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), the one used in Mellie's Mix, lightened an LHC member's hair years ago.

The recipe in this post does not replace honey lightening - it goes to Roman chamomile's possible contribution to lightening in a honey lightening recipe - except one with cassia obovata (because of the acidic pH of chamomile), which may affect the cassia, causing it to yield colour - See pages 76 and 77 in this thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=115240&postcount=6

Bunnyears
May 19th, 2008, 12:41 AM
Tonight I tried doing the honey/cinnamon again. Well, I used more cinnamon this time, and it really burned my face so I washed it off right away. I'm worried because the red streaks on my face are still there (just as the other member who reported redness on her back.) I hope it goes away! Yesterday I used a smaller amount and had no reaction.


Thank you ktani, for answering my previous question. I am very grateful. I took your advice and applied to very wet hair with a blush brush on my hair this time. It's much more efficient that way. I am also utilizing a platic cap this time. I'll report in the morning.

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 05:48 AM
Bunnyears

I m so sorry that you got such a bad reaction to the cinnamon!

It should be temporary.

If you have any aloe vera gel, that should help soothe your skin.

Please be very careful if you use it again or just leave it out of your mix.

If you want to use a spice booster, patch test cardamom and see if that is better for you and use chamomile tea as your water base with the honey.

You could also try just a bit of extra virgin olive oil as your only peroxide booster.

I am concerned as to how you made out this tme.

Everything else in your method sounds great - I am glad for you that the mellie's method of application is easier for you.

Using a blush brush is brilliant! - very creative.

Bunnyears
May 19th, 2008, 02:20 PM
Ktani, thanks again!
Thankfully the redness subsided after 20 minutes.
I actually performed the honey ritual twice in a row last night. The first time I mixed just honey and four parts water and left it on with a cap for an hour. Unfortunately even with the cap on my roots (which is what I'm targeting most) dry very quickly. It seems like they repel water in nanoseconds, unlike the rest of the hair which is bleached and hangs on to every drop of water because it's so porous. After one hour I rinsed and applied the same mixture again and this time not only covered with acap but also wrapped a damp towel around it. I left it on for an hour again, and even with the towel the roots were damp when I took off the cap.
I'm wondering if the peroxide only works on previously processed hair (such as hennaed, colored, bleached) as opposed to virgin hair. It seems to me that virgin hair (my roots) is too resistant and not porous enough for the peroxide to penetrate the cuticle. Since processed hair is more porous it may receive the peroxide much better than virgin hair. How can peroxide permeate a healthy hair when there is no agent such as ammonia to open the cuticle to deposit the peroxide inside the hair shaft and take out the melanin?

Also, so far I've tried Golden Blossom Honey (white clover, sage buckwheat, and orange blossom blend,) Krasdale (clover,) Goya honey (very dark, but don't know what it's made of,) and Capilano Australian honey (Eucalyptus leucoxylon, Blue Gum.) None of these worked for me... I don't see too many dark honeys, or blends, but most of th cheap ones are clover. Can you please specify a certain brand, or variety that am work better? Thank you.

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 03:07 PM
Ktani, thanks again!
Thankfully the redness subsided after 20 minutes.
I actually performed the honey ritual twice in a row last night. The first time I mixed just honey and four parts water and left it on with a cap for an hour. Unfortunately even with the cap on my roots (which is what I'm targeting most) dry very quickly. It seems like they repel water in nanoseconds, unlike the rest of the hair which is bleached and hangs on to every drop of water because it's so porous. After one hour I rinsed and applied the same mixture again and this time not only covered with acap but also wrapped a damp towel around it. I left it on for an hour again, and even with the towel the roots were damp when I took off the cap.
I'm wondering if the peroxide only works on previously processed hair (such as hennaed, colored, bleached) as opposed to virgin hair. It seems to me that virgin hair (my roots) is too resistant and not porous enough for the peroxide to penetrate the cuticle. Since processed hair is more porous it may receive the peroxide much better than virgin hair. How can peroxide permeate a healthy hair when there is no agent such as ammonia to open the cuticle to deposit the peroxide inside the hair shaft and take out the melanin?

Also, so far I've tried Golden Blossom Honey (white clover, sage buckwheat, and orange blossom blend,) Krasdale (clover,) Goya honey (very dark, but don't know what it's made of,) and Capilano Australian honey (Eucalyptus leucoxylon, Blue Gum.) None of these worked for me... I don't see too many dark honeys, or blends, but most of th cheap ones are clover. Can you please specify a certain brand, or variety that am work better? Thank you.

Bunnyears

I am relieved to hear that the cinnamon irritation subsided so quickly.

Honey lightening has been reported to work just fine on virgin hair.

If you look at firebird's pictures you can see how honey lightening lightened her virgin regrowth.

First set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

2nd set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

Did you wash/clarify your hair before trying the treatments?

Alfalfa honey has been very successful for mellie - clover honey was not.

Bunnyears
May 19th, 2008, 03:14 PM
Yay! Thanks so much!! I'll run to the store and look for alfalfa honey!!! Your timing is perfect, I was just on my way. I'll try again tonight and report later. I won't experiment with spices anymore, it's a little too messy, but EVOO is always in my pantry, so I'll add that. I admit, I'm hoping for a miracle that'll lighten up those ashy brown roots to at least a brassy tone (even that is preferable to that horrible mousy brown!) Oh well...

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 03:18 PM
Bunnyears

Good luck!

I would wash and maybe clarify your hair first tonight - it may help.

You can also do a roots only application.

You could try chamomile tea - it should help with any leftover irritation.

flapjack
May 19th, 2008, 07:35 PM
Thanks again for the kind words, ktani. :)


Okay, I have pictures from this afternoon in the sun. It was really hot today!


Here is wet hair.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008wet.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008.jpg



And 6 hours later... dry hair. I had a lot of free time today, apparently. Haha.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-20082.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/newhair1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/topofhead5-2008.jpg

Hopefully this helps! I have never taken pictures of just my hair in sunlight before so it's crazy to me to see how much red has shown up in the past few years. I had no idea it was that much.

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 07:59 PM
flapjack

This 2nd one in the wet hair pair should work well as your before - to compare against new pictures after treatments.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008.jpg

It is more of what I need to see your true colour. I just need a bit more of the top of you head, without you leaning your head forward.

If you can duplicate this angle and lighting for the next set - it should be good.

Thank you so much for going to the trouble to do this.

flapjack
May 19th, 2008, 08:05 PM
Duplicating the angle and lighting will be easy, so I will be able to do that next time as well. I will take some more pictures after 1-2 more treatments, depending on how they turn out. My hair doesn't look as light as I originally thought, so I will be doing it more.


That makes me think of something, though. How long do you think this effect from the honey lasts?


And you're welcome, it's not a problem, really. The photos only took a few minutes with a timer. :D

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 08:09 PM
flapjack

It should be permanent. Honey lightening does not usually redarken - when it has - it can be traced to something else in the recipe.

If you are worried about roots - you can just do a roots only application from time to time.

firebird did to even out her virgin regrowth from both a previous conventional dye and honey lightening.

First set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

2nd set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

flapjack
May 19th, 2008, 08:13 PM
Ah okay, that's great. I can do this to even out my roots when they get a bit darker in the winter... like firebird is doing. Permanent coloring that doesn't harm your hair is pretty fantastic.

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 08:26 PM
Ok, this is a shout out to:

bizarrogirl

blackfrostqueen

brok3nwings

Celebrian

choleishere

coralsky

Fiberaddict

firebird

flapjack

frannyg

GlennaGirl

goldilocks

Javadandy

Joliebaby

kathrynrose

LadyPolaris

Liv

Lovitar

Maluhia

mellie

Minx

nayver

Palms

Raederle

sandrak

Simplylonghair

Viviane

wintersun99


and anyone else please who has had successful honey lightening (I would have to go through 5 Honey threads to name you all), so if your name is not on the list please forgive me, and do not be shy.

Everyone on the list reported more than just slight lightening. I do not have before and after pictures for all of them.

The brand names and or types of honey (plant source) used please. You can pm me if you do not want to post.

ETA: While pictures as always are most welcome - this is about the brand name and plant source of the honey - so - if you do not have or do not wish to post pictures - no worries.

I will start this with Trader Joe's squeeze bear honey (no plant source named, unfortunately) and I know that mellie used alfalfa honey with success.

I want to have a list for others, that I will assemble from replies.

Bunnyears
May 19th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Ktai, what a delicious idea! Thanks for taking my cue and doing the survey on types of honey! I have about 6 bottles in my pantry right now, and have been eating way more honey than usual :)

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 10:07 PM
Bunnyears

You are welcome.

I have a Preferred List of Conditioners that is now not applicable, IMO.

Honey is good for you, lol.

Did you manage to find alfalfa honey?

flapjack
May 19th, 2008, 10:09 PM
The two I have used are both trader joe brands. First three times I did it with 100% desert mesquite honey. The fourth time I used clover blossom honey. The only reason I switched is because I simply ran out. As far as I know, I got the same amount of results from both and they're both about the same color as well. The clover blossom might be a little darker, actually. But it looks pretty negligible.

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 10:23 PM
flapjack

Thank you for the fast reply.

I am going to have my work cut out for me on this - but it will be worth it - your post will be recorded in my post index and I will start the list.

LadyPolaris
May 19th, 2008, 10:24 PM
Ok, this is a shout out to: (...)

Everyone on the list reported more than just slight lightening. I do not have before and after pictures for all of them.

The brand names and or types of honey (plant source) used please. You can pm me if you do not want to post. (...)

I'm sorry ktani, but I won't be of much help on this one. I live in Brazil and the honey I used is by a Brazilian brand called Bio21, which I had never heard of - you probably don't have it there. Plus it does not state any plant source for the product. I do know two things - it was fairly expensive (70% above the price of other brands of honey), and it's not too dark. Not light either, I'd say it's a caramel color. Hubby thinks he saw a sign next to it in the supermarket which said it was orange blossom honey, but don't rely too much on that, the label doesn't say anything.

Everyone around me did notice some lightening (mainly the burgundy henna faded a little towards orange) and I left the mix (honey + 2 parts conditioner + 2 parts chamomile tea + 2 tbsp cinnamon) in my hair for 3 hours, covered with saran wrap, shower cap and towel.

I cannot wait to try this recipe with a darker honey from a mixed source, and with no conditioner. I believe I'll notice a good improvement. :)

Raederle
May 19th, 2008, 10:24 PM
Okay, I used Ralph's brand honey. It's pure clover honey, made here in the United States. Ralph's is a grocery chain here; I think the parent company is Kroeger's. I only ever used it with conditioner, on wet hair; I was additive-free :misskim:

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 10:29 PM
LadyPolaris

This is an international forum - all replies, plant sources if available and brand names are welcome - the colour of the honey is not important for this - the results are.

Thank you for your reply - your honey will go on the list.

And thank you for your recipe and details.

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 10:33 PM
Raederle

Thank you so much for replying.

As I just said, the colour of the honey is not important - this is about results.

I know what the research says but I want tried and true reports on honeys.

I will add your honey to the list.

chloeishere
May 19th, 2008, 11:27 PM
Hi! I am reporting back to post my recipes, results and pictures, since you asked!

I did two honey lightenings, though the second was accidental. Both times I used "Nature's Best" organic honey, which is available in pretty much every supermarket I've been to. The flowers used are not specified, but I suspect it is clover honey. It came in an "upside down" bear bottle, with the nozzle on the bottom.

The first honey lightening treatment gave reasonable, but not exceptional results.
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1439c.jpghttp://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1457c.jpg

For that recipe, I used 3 tablespoons VO5 champagne kiss conditioner, 1 tablespoon olive oil, and 1 tablespoon honey. This was left in for about 9-10 hours total. (I know there has been more research since then-- probably the honey was not active all night, or for more than a few hours. At the time, the 4:1 water-based-liquid-to-honey ratio was not known.)

The second time, I got more dramatic results. I was not intending to lighten, just modify an SMT to see if it got better results than the "traditional" one. 1 part = ~1 teaspoon
1 part (MELTED) Fox's Shea Conditioning cream (which is 1 part conditioner- I used VO5 champagne kiss, 1 part unrefined shea butter, 0.5 part oil- I used jojoba)
~1 part honey
~1 part aloe vera
~1 part additional conditioner- I used VO5 vitaburst nectarine and orange.
This was left on for 9 hours, and was not as moist as the first treatment.
Pictures:
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1457c.jpghttp://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k152/chloeishere/IMG_1728c.jpg

All photos were taken in the same lighting, with the same camera. Most of my hair at the time had been dyed with a darker, redder brown shade, then colorfixed. The honey seemed to selectively remove the redder tones (which weren't natural) from my hair, which I was very happy about! The colorfix removed some of the color, but left a lot of red in.

Hope that helps!

ktani
May 19th, 2008, 11:34 PM
cloeishere

Oh, I have some pictures of results.

These 2 pictures of yours too, which show the colour lightening difference even better, IMO. I record everything now, to keep track of things.
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1467778&postcount=510

Thank you so much for replying with so much information, including pictures.

I really appreciate it.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 08:54 AM
I am already getting pm replies to the honey brand name and plant source shout out.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=117273&postcount=786

Not everyone remembers what brand or knows the plant source of the honey they used - no worries - I very much appreciate each and every reply.

I will put a list together as soon as I have enough information to just need to keep adding to it.

In the meantime, since I am keeping records offline, I can still refer to the responses, if that is needed.

firebird
May 20th, 2008, 09:16 AM
I've been using Sue Bee honey, which says it is clover honey. It is about medium on the scale from light to dark. The list is a great idea, thanks again ktani!

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 09:58 AM
firebird

Thank you.

Without you all, there would be no Honey thread, or the previous Honey threads.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 10:23 AM
Several people have posted that for them, clover honey worked just fine.

I think it depends on the brand of clover honey - which may blend different varieties of clover honey.

I think that most of the honey that you buy is a blend of one kind or another - some are differnt plant sources - some are one plant source that is a blend of different varieties of that plant honey.

GlennaGirl
May 20th, 2008, 10:32 AM
Hi, ktani and all my lovely honey-heads!

Answering the shout out.

I have done two more honey treatments since I last posted. One was the just-water (and honey and cinnamon) dealio. The other one, I tried something interesting:

I stirred the honey into water (about three parts water) and let it sit for 10 minutes. This was based on ktani's research that the more diluted, the more peroxide is released, and also the one study where the honey sat in water for quite some time before the peroxide being measured. That was based on one hour, but I was anxious to get going so I left it for 10 minutes. Then I added my cinnamon and about half a part of conditioner...just to bulk it up a bit. I haven't yet gotten around to getting that touch-up brush and I wanted the mixture to "stick"...but of course, the more diluted the better. So I split the difference that way.

I feel like it's a bit lighter, or that the red v. very dark brown "climbs" higher up from the bottom and down from the top, but I need to take a picture today in exact conditions to compare it to my Beginning photo. So that will be at 2:00 Pacific time today.

I'll post at that time and you can let me know what you think.

Thanks!

GlennaGirl
May 20th, 2008, 10:34 AM
Flapjack, your hair is SO BEAUTIFUL. (fainting dead away)

p.s. Agree with ya, it was BEASTLY hot Sunday and yesterday. It's supposed to be a smidge cooler today and then tomorrow it will be in the 70s. :) I may be "hotter" than you because I'm further inland (in the SGV).






Thanks again for the kind words, ktani. :)


Okay, I have pictures from this afternoon in the sun. It was really hot today!


Here is wet hair.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008wet.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-2008.jpg



And 6 hours later... dry hair. I had a lot of free time today, apparently. Haha.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5-20082.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/newhair1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/topofhead5-2008.jpg

Hopefully this helps! I have never taken pictures of just my hair in sunlight before so it's crazy to me to see how much red has shown up in the past few years. I had no idea it was that much.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 10:43 AM
Hi, ktani and all my lovely honey-heads!

Answering the shout out.

I have done two more honey treatments since I last posted. One was the just-water (and honey and cinnamon) dealio. The other one, I tried something interesting:

I stirred the honey into water (about three parts water) and let it sit for 10 minutes. This was based on ktani's research that the more diluted, the more peroxide is released, and also the one study where the honey sat in water for quite some time before the peroxide being measured. That was based on one hour, but I was anxious to get going so I left it for 10 minutes. Then I added my cinnamon and about half a part of conditioner...just to bulk it up a bit. I haven't yet gotten around to getting that touch-up brush and I wanted the mixture to "stick"...but of course, the more diluted the better. So I split the difference that way.

I feel like it's a bit lighter, or that the red v. very dark brown "climbs" higher up from the bottom and down from the top, but I need to take a picture today in exact conditions to compare it to my Beginning photo. So that will be at 2:00 Pacific time today.

I'll post at that time and you can let me know what you think.

Thanks!

GlennaGirl

Thank you for replying to the shout out and including your latest recipes.

However, you forgot to mention the brand and or plant source of the honey, lol.

The information on the 4 parts water to 1 part honey and the 1 hour to get the maximum peroxide level, was all from the same research link.

I know that it is going to be difficult for some of you to cut back using conditioner in the honey lightening recipes but I think that you will find the results worth it.

I look forward to your new pictures.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 10:46 AM
Here is some interesting information on the different plant sources for honey. You can click on each type for more information.
http://www.honeylocator.com/search.asp

This page lets you select from the kinds of honey in the box to get information from a huge list of plant sources.
http://www.honeylocator.com/flowers.asp

Varietal or single source honey
"Varietal honeys .... single-source honeys .... one main source of nectar, such as orange blossoms or eucalyptus flowers."
http://www.chow.com/stories/10204

The scoop on varietal honey
".... it’s very unlikely that 100 percent of the honey will come from that one type of flower..."
http://www.chow.com/stories/10445

"It All Depends On Where The Bees Buzz"
"Honey is called monofloral .... derived from a dominant floral source. "blended" honey is created from a blend of several floral sources."
http://www.billybee.com/en/infocentr...rflavour.shtml

The terminology used about honey sources can be confusing, IMO.

If it is clover honey and there is more than 1 kind of clover, do all of the clover types bloom at once?

There is also the term unifloral honey - referring to a single flower source.

This is getting more complicated than wading through a conditioner ingredient list lol, but it is interesting, IMO.

GlennaGirl
May 20th, 2008, 11:12 AM
GlennaGirl

Thank you for replying to the shout out and including your latest recipes.

However, you forgot to mention the brand and or plant source of the honey, lol.

The information on the 4 parts water to 1 part honey and the 1 hour to get the maximum peroxide level, was all from the same research link.

I know that it is going to be difficult for some of you to cut back using conditioner in the honey lightening recipes but I think that you will find the results worth it.

I look forward to your new pictures.

Oh, the source...I can't remember the name of the first honey I used (before these two times) but the next time I'm at the store, I'll get that name.

These most recent two times, I used Stater Brothers (grocery store) brand. :) ETA: The bottle is gone (I got a little bottle) so I don't know the plant source. I'm pretty sure it's also under the Kroger manufacturing process (someone else mentioned Ralph's, made by Kroger) so the source may be the same but again, I'll look on the store shelf and find out.

I did use the no-conditioner method for one of these most recent two lightenings so we'll see today @ 2:00 whether it made a difference.

Thanks, ktani!

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 11:26 AM
GlennaGirl

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I look forward to your latest results.

Bunnyears has been using a blush brush - I think that is a great idea and it might even be more hair friendly than a tint brush - the bristles are softer.

wintersun99
May 20th, 2008, 12:01 PM
shout out


Ktani - 4:1 liquid to honey mix with name brands:

Conditioner: Mane and Tail (but would have preferred VO5 Kiwi Lime)
Cinnamon: Simply Organic (bought at Natures grocery store)
Honey: Nature's Energy (bought at Natures grocery store)

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 12:03 PM
wintersun99

Thank you so much!

bizarrogirl
May 20th, 2008, 12:33 PM
I used Wegmans' brand Clover Honey successfully.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 12:35 PM
bizarrogirl

Thank you very much!

Your results were amazing, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

Celebrian
May 20th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Ok Ktani. I have periodically (although not consistently) used a honey type treatment to lift indigo (possibly having an effect on the PPD dyed hair beneath, also).

Usually I just put about 1/4 cup of cheap non-specific runny honey (Sainsburys 'Basics' brand) in with about one tablespoon lemon juice and add to enough cone-free conditioner (any brand) to fully cover my hair. Apply to dirty/clean hair, wrap in saran and towel and leave one-two hours before rinsing.

A couple of these in a row have always given a subtle degree of 'lift' whereby the intensity of the indigo has been softened.

I've also used amla and honey. Tablespoon amla with enough hot water added to make a thickish paste, then a generous amount of runny (non-specific) honey and a bit more water - to make a workable thin paste. Apply to dirty/clean hair - saran wrap one-two hours, then rinse well. This gives a very similar effect to the honey, lemon & conditioner for me i.e. a softening of indigo build-up. However, the amla also does a lovely job of boosting thickness!

Incidently, I've also used these methods for henna only build-up, with the same success (this would be over a year ago now).

To summarise - there is no doubt in my mind that the above methods work to lift color build-up from hair (due to henna/indigo) by as much as 1/2 a shade per time. However, I have never done more than two in a row, each time, so cannot say what would happen (in my case) if I did them more frequently.

My hair is always left in good condition after these treatments, but then I have fairly strong, thick hair!

Sorry, no pics! Hope this is of some use...

flapjack
May 20th, 2008, 12:39 PM
Flapjack, your hair is SO BEAUTIFUL. (fainting dead away)

p.s. Agree with ya, it was BEASTLY hot Sunday and yesterday. It's supposed to be a smidge cooler today and then tomorrow it will be in the 70s. :) I may be "hotter" than you because I'm further inland (in the SGV).


Thank you! :D I think you may be having some of the best results with the honey so far, honestly.


Ohh yeah, you probably had it worse than I did. I'm a big wimp when it comes to heat with some humidity because I grew up in the desert. I'm used to that dry heat that feels like you're walking in an oven, but this sticky stuff I have trouble with, haha. Especially with the hair on the back! I'm going to have my hair up most of the summer here, I think. But in the valley there it's worse since clouds with moisture get stuck between the hills. I'm a big desert rat when it comes to weather, hahaha.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 12:52 PM
Ok Ktani. I have periodically (although not consistently) used a honey type treatment to lift indigo (possibly having an effect on the PPD dyed hair beneath, also).

Usually I just put about 1/4 cup of cheap non-specific runny honey (Sainsburys 'Basics' brand) in with about one tablespoon lemon juice and add to enough cone-free conditioner (any brand) to fully cover my hair. Apply to dirty/clean hair, wrap in saran and towel and leave one-two hours before rinsing.

A couple of these in a row have always given a subtle degree of 'lift' whereby the intensity of the indigo has been softened.

I've also used amla and honey. Tablespoon amla with enough hot water added to make a thickish paste, then a generous amount of runny (non-specific) honey and a bit more water - to make a workable thin paste. Apply to dirty/clean hair - saran wrap one-two hours, then rinse well. This gives a very similar effect to the honey, lemon & conditioner for me i.e. a softening of indigo build-up. However, the amla also does a lovely job of boosting thickness!

Incidently, I've also used these methods for henna only build-up, with the same success (this would be over a year ago now).

To summarise - there is no doubt in my mind that the above methods work to lift color build-up from hair (due to henna/indigo) by as much as 1/2 a shade per time. However, I have never done more than two in a row, each time, so cannot say what would happen (in my case) if I did them more frequently.

My hair is always left in good condition after these treatments, but then I have fairly strong, thick hair!

Sorry, no pics! Hope this is of some use...

Celebrian

Thank you so much for replying.

No worries about the pictures.

I now know that Vitamin C added to a honey lightening recipe lowers the peroxide content of the recipe (the lemon juice).

The peroxide produced by the honey or any peroxide booster oxidizes it and is depleted in doing so.

The Vitamin C content of amla has been disputed but if it does have any in it - the same result would happen with it.

The fact that your hair still lightened in spite of using these 2 ingredients in your honey lightening recipes means that the honey you used produced enough peroxide to deal with both the Vitamin C and the lightening of your hair.

If you continue to try honey lightening, please do not add any Vitamin C ingredient to your recipe, with the only exception to this being the peroxide spice booster, cardamom.

Ground cardamom has the highest peroxide level of the spices named on a list I found while researching - 100 points higher than cinnamon - which has worked beautifully to help lighten hair in honey lightening reports.

Cardamom has only a very small Vitamin C content, that IMO, would be compensated for by its peroxide level.

The lastest research and results indicate that a 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution - I am currently advocating 0 conditioner in the mix - yields the best lightening results and the beauty of the new dilution is - you should only need to leave the treatment on your hair for 1 hour - to see better results than you had with your old dilution. You can use a tint or blush brush to apply the more liquid recipe.

The honey peroxide boosters are; cardamom, cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

Chamomile tea, preferably Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), can be used as the water in a honey lightening recipe, except when cassia is added to the mix for extra conditioning- cassia is sensitive to acids, and might yield colour (chamomile tea is acidic).

kimki
May 20th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Hi, I decided a few weeks ago to start growing my henna out.

After reading alot of this thread (although I have to admit I didn't read it all!) I used a 4:1 ratio of Chamomile tea and Honey. I left it on for an hour. Rinsed, shampooed and I definatly have some lightening. Especially where the hair was previously highlighted (underneath the henna).

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 01:50 PM
kimki

Thank you for your recipe and results.

Yes, the thread is growing wildly, though I keep careful records of everything and I am always willing to help out and illustrate with links of results and information if needed.

I am very pleased that you are pleased.

My standard question please - how is the condition of your hair following honey lightening?

To me, that is even more important than the lightening results.

I could not continue to do this if people were have damage results and disaters because of what I recommend.

GlennaGirl
May 20th, 2008, 02:05 PM
Thank you! :D I think you may be having some of the best results with the honey so far, honestly.


Ohh yeah, you probably had it worse than I did. I'm a big wimp when it comes to heat with some humidity because I grew up in the desert. I'm used to that dry heat that feels like you're walking in an oven, but this sticky stuff I have trouble with, haha. Especially with the hair on the back! I'm going to have my hair up most of the summer here, I think. But in the valley there it's worse since clouds with moisture get stuck between the hills. I'm a big desert rat when it comes to weather, hahaha.

Me too!! Hair up every day. I have the opposite--I grew up in a very humid place--but it was only "hot hot summer" for about three weeks every year. I'm a baby about the heat too and I do whatever I can to keep cool. My hair is short enough that a high bun works for me and doesn't pull/feel too heavy. Stay cool this summer!!!

ktani, two more hours and I'll take a picture! I hope to have some good results. It's so hard to tell on oneself.

blackfrostqueen
May 20th, 2008, 02:05 PM
Ok, this is a shout out to:

(...)

Everyone on the list reported more than just slight lightening. I do not have before and after pictures for all of them.

The brand names and or types of honey (plant source) used please. You can pm me if you do not want to post.

(...)

ktani, I don't have the type/source because it doesn't say on the bottle. But the brand name is Target's: Market Pantry Honey. Comes in a little bear bottle.

And sorry, I don't have any photos to show the difference in the color change.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 02:11 PM
ktani, I don't have the type/source because it doesn't say on the bottle. But the brand name is Target's: Market Pantry Honey. Comes in a little bear bottle.

And sorry, I don't have any photos to show the difference in the color change.

blackfrostqueen

Thank you so much for replying - pictures are not important for this but are wecome anytime.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 02:12 PM
GlennaGirl

No worries.

DolphinPrincess
May 20th, 2008, 02:14 PM
I know I haven't had great results, but I'd like to add that I'm now using Sue Bee's unpasturized honey (was the darkest I could find) and was originally using a generic, store brand honey bear from Safeway. When I used the bear kind, my hair felt slightly crispy, and it took a few good conditioning treatments to feel better. Now, with the Sue Bee honey, its much softer and shinier.

My most recent recipe:
1/4 c honey
1 c chamomile tea
1.5 T coconut oil
1 T cinnamon
1 T cardamom

I ended up using a pastry brush to apply it, then dipped the length in the mix, bagged it, then put a turbie towel over it. Left it on for about an hour, then shampooed and conditioned the heck out of it to try to remove the spices. There is a slight color difference, my hair is now more of a 'soft black' than jet black. No pics though, sorry.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 02:23 PM
DolphinPrincess

Thank you for your new recipe and results.

At least now you are getting some results compared to no results before.

Excellent news that the change in honey has resulted in your hair feeling better.

I had a feeling that different honeys might have different residue levels - thank you for that too.

I suggest for your next treatment - lose the cinnamon - increase the cardamom - just to fill in the gap - not too much.

And switch oils - EVOO has a higher peroxide level than coconut - just lower the amount to 1 tablespoon to make it easier to wash out of the hair.

kimki
May 20th, 2008, 02:25 PM
kimki

Thank you for your recipe and results.

Yes, the thread is growing wildly, though I keep careful records of everything and I am always willing to help out and illustrate with links of results and information if needed.

I am very pleased that you are pleased.

My standard question please - how is the condition of your hair following honey lightening?

To me, that is even more important than the lightening results.

I could not continue to do this if people were have damage results and disaters because of what I recommend.

I have to agree, condition is more important. My hair feels great, it actually seems to feel thicker and stronger. People commented today how shiny it looked.

I have two questions if thats ok.

Firstly, have you found that a particular type of honey gives better results?

Also if you keep using the honey, does the hair keep getting lighter? Or is only 1 shade usually?

Thank you.

DolphinPrincess
May 20th, 2008, 02:27 PM
DolphinPrincess

Thank you for your new recipe and results.

At least now you are getting some results compared to no results before.

Excellent news that the change in honey has resulted in your hair feeling better.

I had a feeling that different honeys might have different residue levels - thank you for that.

I suggest for your next treatment - lose the cinnamon - increase the cardamom - just to fill in the gap - not too much.

Thanks, I'll try that! I'm almost out of cardamom, I'll have to watch for when it goes on sale again, that stuff is expensive!! Otherwise I might do without the spices. I'm very excited about the change! I just want a color that'll make my transition back to just henna easier.

ETA: Is the peroxide value alot higher in EVOO? My hair isn't that fond of it, but loves coconut.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 02:42 PM
I have to agree, condition is more important. My hair feels great, it actually seems to feel thicker and stronger. People commented today how shiny it looked.

I have two questions if thats ok.

Firstly, have you found that a particular type of honey gives better results?

Also if you keep using the honey, does the hair keep getting lighter? Or is only 1 shade usually?

Thank you.

kimki

I am so glad that you hair is in good condition.

"Thicker and stronger" - the opposite of damage - excellent!

Thank you for answering my question.

Anyone can ask as many questions as they like. I will do my best to answer them all.

So far no one type of honey is standing out - clover honey did not work for mellie but alfalfa honey did.

But clover has worked well for others.

So I think the brand is significant because if you look at the honey information links a few pages back now - there is more than one kind of clover possible in honey.

Different beekeepers no doubt use different clover sources for the bees.

As to the amount of lightening - I have seen reports that are at least 2 shades lighter IMO - so there is currently no ceiling on that but I cannot say just how far honey lightening can go.

I believe I said in my Honey Article from .5 of a shade to over 1 shade is possible.

I have no way of knowing exactly - especially with the possibilities with the new dilution.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 02:46 PM
Thanks, I'll try that! I'm almost out of cardamom, I'll have to watch for when it goes on sale again, that stuff is expensive!! Otherwise I might do without the spices. I'm very excited about the change! I just want a color that'll make my transition back to just henna easier.




ETA: Is the peroxide value alot higher in EVOO? My hair isn't that fond of it, but loves coconut.


DolphinPrincess

There are different qualities of EVOO out there - but from my information - the peroxide value of it is about double that compared to other oils, including coconut oil.

kimki
May 20th, 2008, 02:50 PM
Thank you very much for all your help. :)

I am going to do a few more treatments and I'll keep you informed.

DolphinPrincess
May 20th, 2008, 02:56 PM
Oh, wow, ok, thanks!

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 02:56 PM
kimki

You are most welcome.

I look forward to reading more results from you.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 03:06 PM
The peroxide value of oils - See "Peroxide value (PV)."

"Peroxide value (PV). .... is an indication of the amount of hydroperoxides present in an oil. .... compounds arise from lipid oxidation; therefore, the PV, expressed as milliequivalent oxygen per kilogram oil (meq/kg) .... measure of oil quality. The PV .... greatly reduced by the refining process used for most vegetable oils. Virgin olive oils .... not exposed .... such processes and the PVs permitted .... considerably higher. The IOOC and CAC standards permit extra-virgin olive oils .... have PVs of up to 20 meq/kg .... pure olive oils .... by definition are blends of virgin and refined olive oils .... have PVs below 10 meq/kg."
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm


"Two samples A and B of the oil of coconut (Cocos nucifera) were stored for 3 months .... changes in the levels of free fatty acid and peroxide values .... monitored at monthly intervals in the 3-month period. The peroxide values .... less than 10 for either oil sample after 3 months. .... "
http://www.ajol.info/viewarticle.php?id=16064

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 03:48 PM
kimki

You said that your lightening results were good - what brand and type of honey did you use, please?

GlennaGirl
May 20th, 2008, 04:31 PM
Okay, ktani, well, here it is. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Melsie/IMG_1730.jpg

I am thrilled...I'm really getting there!

Remember, this was:

- one water, honey and cinnamon mixture for 1 hour and 15 minutes.
- one mostly water, honey dispersed in that water for 15 minutes, then dash of conditioner and my cinnamon mixed in, for 1.5 hours.

Am I crazy or is it browner/lighter as opposed to "black"-er? And this even given that the photo seems to have turned out darker than my "before" picture overall...I mean not the hair, the rest of the picture...if you look at my arms in both photos. The one where my hair looks lighter, is actually a darker picture overall. Or am I just daydreaming?

BTW, that's my washed and nothing-done-to-it 1a hair. Blowing in the extreme wind today...it was hard to take a pic.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Cheap and dark. Got it. Thank you!

Oh man, polaris, that second picture is making me hungry.

I wanted to post a big-A picture of what I'll now call my "starting" color, although as you can see, the ends have lightened over my many treatments to the perfect roots-matching color. So from now on I'll just honey that huge center area that's brown:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Melsie/IMG_1704.jpg

Outdoors, no flash. During the coming weeks I'll post more pictures under exactly those circumstances and let's see if I can't get my whole head to be red!

SPECIAL NOTE: This is important for honey-ers to know. The bottom area which is much lighter than that middle area, was dark as pitch before starting honey treatments. My entire head of hair was dark as pitch, close to black. I think my honey may be dripping down or something and pooling on the ends and that's why the ends have lightened much more than the center. But before honey, my entire head of hair was nearly black with henndigo. The ends have lightened to almost red--matching the very top, which is just henna, no indigo.


GlennaGirl

I am confused - which is not difficult right now - I am a little tired.

This is your last picture with a smaller one underneath.

Your new one looks like the same picture as the 2nd smaller one - which did not make the trip over here - see the link.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

If you edited this new picture into that post ok - I was going by the edit date.

Yes, the middle of the back seems less dark - less of a contrast.

Can you tell which of the 2 treatments - since you used some conditioner in one - lightened more?

I am very pleased for you - but please explain to me what I am seeing in terms of the dates.

GlennaGirl
May 20th, 2008, 05:02 PM
Ktani, the picture I just posted today has become my new siggie pic. That's why you see two of the same picture...

I'm going to try to upload the pic again but bigger this time...Photobucket keeps making them smaller. Be right back...

GlennaGirl
May 20th, 2008, 05:04 PM
Okay, try this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Melsie/IMG_1730-1.jpg

ETA: It's blending tons better, isn't it? The contrast between roots and length? As to which treatment did more...I didn't notice a drastic difference after the first one so I would have to say they were probably about equal.

...and this one underneath...is the same picture because I'm using it as my new siggy picture.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 05:09 PM
GlennaGirl

That makes perfect sense, lol.

I never thought of that - tired won't let me out of that one, lol.

I definitely think that you are well on your way.

And now that I have recovered - thank you so much for posting the new picture and the recipes.

Any more news on the honey?

And which recipe worked best?

mommy2one05
May 20th, 2008, 05:15 PM
I was wondering I have about 1-3 inches of regrowth of roots color. I used to get my hair chemically colored at least 2 times a year, the last time was in February and I have decided not to anymore since it will be harder and more expensive as it gets longer. So my roots coming in are darker and the rest of my hair is lighter so should I concentrate on lightening the roots (maybe with honey and conditioner) or somehow darkening the length? Thanks for any advice??

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 05:27 PM
I was wondering I have about 1-3 inches of regrowth of roots color. I used to get my hair chemically colored at least 2 times a year, the last time was in February and I have decided not to anymore since it will be harder and more expensive as it gets longer. So my roots coming in are darker and the rest of my hair is lighter so should I concentrate on lightening the roots (maybe with honey and conditioner) or somehow darkening the length? Thanks for any advice??

mommy2one05

You can definitely just lighten the root area if you want to do that.

I am no longer recommending honey and conditioner for lightening.

I am recommending honey with water or herb tea - chamomile or a mix of herbs like chamomile and mullein as in Mellie's Mix with peroxide boosters added, if you so choose.

The basic recipe is now 4 parts water or tea to 1 part honey.

The preferred chamomile is Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis).

Mellie's Mix - 1 cup of boiled water with 1 tablespoon each of chamomile and mullein to 1/4 cup of honey.

The peroxide boosters are; cardamom, cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

Do not add too much of the spices if you use them and mix them well into the liquid before you apply the mix with a tint or blush brush to your freshly washed wet hair and cover it, with a plastic bag - saran wrap will work as well.

You can use an oil and a spice in a treatment - 2 peroxide boosters - if you want.

For either oil, use about 1 tablespoon to start off with - they can be difficult to wash out of the hair otherwise.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higer peroxide level than coconut oil.

You should only need to leave the treatment on your hair for 1 hour each time.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 06:02 PM
GlennaGirl

I just read your edit - there probably was not too much difference between the 2 recipes - you did not use too much conditioner though.

I still think that conditioner is much less preferable than water or herb tea for honey lightening recipes.

I am trying to increase the odds of a honey lightening treatment being as successful as it can be.

Conditioner is not a necessary part of the recipe.

The dilution is.

Conditioners - light ones - are about 90% water - about being the operative word - and reports so far have indicated that diluting them by more than half yielded better results.

Using a conditioner to bulk up a recipe as 1 part of the 4 parts water in the dilution means at best that you are losing 10% of the water needed to get the maximum peroxide value from the honey.

Diluting a conditioner that much makes it useless for conditioning IMO.

And with some conditioners having ingredients like extra waxy ingredients and formers, that in the past have been shown in reports to be problematic for honey lightening - I do not think that they are worth the risk of including in a honey lightening recipe.

IMO, a conditioner no longer serves a purpose in honey lightening and if one contains less water than 90% - you lose that much more of the needed dilution ratio.

wintersun99
May 20th, 2008, 06:50 PM
... my roots coming in are darker and the rest of my hair is lighter so should I concentrate on lightening the roots (maybe with honey and conditioner) or somehow darkening the length...

the answer would very much depend on what color you want your hair to be... lighter to match the chemically colored length, or darker to match the new root growth. If you want to go a little darker, try using Bluenko's Molasses recipe...

1/2 jar molasses
1 tsp olive oil
1 tsp rosemary oil
1 tsp tea tree oil
conditioner to cut down on stickiness, if necessary

create a sticky (not runny) paste then apply it to dry hair, double wrap with plastic and soak for no less than 1 hour.
The results are noticeable! Softeness, thickness, rich brown colour.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 06:56 PM
wintersun99

Very well said!

Blueneko's recipe IMO, is an excellent one.

LadyPolaris
May 20th, 2008, 07:24 PM
GlennaGirl, your hair is definitely lightening! The darker length is less of a black and more of a dark brown, and the lighter parts are visibly lighter! Congratulations! :)


ktani, I'm sitting here right now all wrapped up in towels with my 2nd honey+cinnamon treatment in my hair. :)


2nd HONEY+CINNAMON TREATMENT

I changed the recipe to reflect your new discoveries...

- 1 part honey (same Bio21 honey, supposedly orange blossom)
- 4 parts chamomile tea (which I really let cool completely this time - I added it to my 1st recipe when it was still a bit warm, which might have killed the peroxide release somewhat - didn't want to risk it this time)
- 2 tbsp ground cinnamon (same as last time)
- 1/2 tbsp coconut oil

I believe the conditioner managed to dilute the cinnamon better. This time the recipe was really hard to mix completely and I found tiny clusters of cinnamon that just wouldn't dissolve. The ones that floated I just scooped and threw out, but while I was applying the mix to my hair I found some more. My scalp did tingle a bit this time (like a menthol tingle, not painful) but it subsided quickly.

The mix was very watery, as expected, and I didn't have a tint brush, so I applied it with a large syringe. It was even less messy than applying the 1st recipe (with conditioner, much less runny) using my fingers, so that's something.

It dripped a lot for the first minute while I wrapped it and put a shower cap and towel around it, but now it stopped completely, which is odd - the 1st mix with conditioner kept running down my cheek. I truly hope it is not too dry in there at this point.

I probably shouldn't have added the coconut oil, for the sake of our scientific method. If the only altered variable was no conditioner / all chamomile tea instead we could have a better idea of how much conditioner hinders the process. But I just couldn't resist - sorry! And, lo and behold, hubby comes home now bearing a bottle of EVOO. Sigh. :D

Tomorrow I'll try and take a picture!

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 07:35 PM
GlennaGirl, your hair is definitely lightening! The darker length is less of a black and more of a dark brown, and the lighter parts are visibly lighter! Congratulations! :)


ktani, I'm sitting here right now all wrapped up in towels with my 2nd honey+cinnamon treatment in my hair. :)


2nd HONEY+CINNAMON TREATMENT

I changed the recipe to reflect your new discoveries...

- 1 part honey (same Bio21 honey, supposedly orange blossom)
- 4 parts chamomile tea (which I really let cool completely this time - I added it to my 1st recipe when it was still a bit warm, which might have killed the peroxide release somewhat - didn't want to risk it this time)
- 2 tbsp ground cinnamon (same as last time)
- 1/2 tbsp coconut oil

I believe the conditioner managed to dilute the cinnamon better. This time the recipe was really hard to mix completely and I found tiny clusters of cinnamon that just wouldn't dissolve. The ones that floated I just scooped and threw out, but while I was applying the mix to my hair I found some more. My scalp did tingle a bit this time (like a menthol tingle, not painful) but it subsided quickly.

The mix was very watery, as expected, and I didn't have a tint brush, so I applied it with a large syringe. It was even less messy than applying the 1st recipe (with conditioner, much less runny) using my fingers, so that's something.

It dripped a lot for the first minute while I wrapped it and put a shower cap and towel around it, but now it stopped completely, which is odd - the 1st mix with conditioner kept running down my cheek. I truly hope it is not too dry in there at this point.

I probably shouldn't have added the coconut oil, for the sake of our scientific method. If the only altered variable was no conditioner / all chamomile tea instead we could have a better idea of how much conditioner hinders the process. But I just couldn't resist - sorry! And, lo and behold, hubby comes home now bearing a bottle of EVOO. Sigh. :D

Tomorrow I'll try and take a picture!

LadyPolaris

Not all conditioners have hindered honey lightening results in the past - the results though were not as good as they have been reported to be with the new dilution, especially with the 1 hour only timing per treatment.

And I think that they can hinder the process now, with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, through their water content and possibly their ingredients.

I do not believe that a conditioner can dissolve cinnamon - it just might help it feel a little less gritty.

Warm chamomile tea should not affect the honey's peroxide.

Cool tea - room temperature - is better though.

I look forward to your latest results - hopefully with a sunshine picture - were you able to take a sunshine before picture?

LadyPolaris
May 20th, 2008, 08:04 PM
No, no sunshine these past few days in this part of the world, I'm afraid. I hope I have better luck on the next pictures. I think I'm going to do these honey+cinnamon treatments for a long while, so I'll be taking a good number of photos in the future. :)

ktani, is there any evidence at all against or in favor of leaving the treatment in for more than 1 hour? Does the peroxide just keep going for as long as your patience allows?

Thank you :)

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 08:11 PM
LadyPolaris

I did not mean to imply that after an hour the peroxide degrades.

I just do not think that leaving the treatment on the hair longer than 1 hour is necessary.

Most people are leaving it on longer than 1 hour exactly.

It really is up to you.

There has not been any indication that it is a problem to do so.

However, the results reported when the treatment is left on the hair close to 1 hour indicates that 1 hour is sufficient.

I think that you could also switch from cinnamon to cardamom as a spice booster, after patch testing it first.

I think that it is a better choice. I do not think that it is potentially as much of an irritant and it might yield even better results.

GlennaGirl
May 20th, 2008, 08:36 PM
LadyPolaris, I can't wait to see how your hair comes out.

What do you all think of my using a spray bottle? Would the cinnamon "grits" be tiny enough to get through the sprayer along with the water/honey?

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 08:41 PM
GlennaGirl

For you definitely not - only because you want the treatment to be mostly on one area of your hair.

And for you as well - try cardamom instead of cinnamon. Patch test it first though.

DolphinPrincess has been using it mixed with cinnamon with no problems and she is seeing results for the first time.

I want to increase results for everyone and decrease or eliminate the negative variables - like possible cinnamon irritation and conditioner hindrance.

DolphinPrincess
May 20th, 2008, 09:23 PM
Ktani, I'm sitting here with a slightly altered mix, as per your suggestions.

1 C chamomile tea
1/4 C honey
2 T cardamom
1 T EVOO

I really hope to get some sunlight pictures soon, but i live in the pacific northwestm not much sun here.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 09:31 PM
DolphinPrincess

No worries about the sunshine or the pictures.

How is your scalp/skin?

I am very pleased for you that you are finally seeing the light - pun intended and I mean your latest results, lol.

Please keep me updated regarding any irritation.

That is a concern for me with you - especially after that horrible cinnamon result.

Good luck with this treatment!

DolphinPrincess
May 20th, 2008, 09:39 PM
DolphinPrincess

No worries about the sunshine or the pictures.

How is your scalp/skin?

I am very pleased for you that you are finally seeing the light - pun intended and I mean your latest results, lol.

Please keep me updated regarding any irritation.

That is a concern for me with you - especially after that horrible cinnamon result.

Good luck with this treatment!


Haha, thanks! Its been on for about 20 minutes, no irritation. I imagine that it would've already showed up by now, right? Oh, and I did a clarifying shampoo by adding some baking soda to my diluted shampoo. I know that baking soda lifts the cuticle, so I was thinking that maybe I could get more color lift that way. :shrug: Worth a shot.

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 09:44 PM
DolphinPrincess

I am not a fan of baking soda but between the honey and the chamomile, I think that your hair will be fine - baking soda if it is not well diluted can be abrasive - not cuticle friendly.

I do think that in 20 minutes, irritation would have shown up by now, especially with so liquid a recipe.

I am relieved and happy for you.

Thank you for posting the recipe.

I have to go offline soon - but I will be back later.

All the best.

DolphinPrincess
May 20th, 2008, 09:55 PM
DolphinPrincess

I am not a fan of baking soda but between the honey and the chamomile, I think that your hair will be fine - baking soda if it is not well diluted can be abrasive - not cuticle friendly.

I do think that in 20 minutes, irritation would have shown up by now, especially with so liquid a recipe.

I am relieved and happy for you.

Thank you for posting the recipe.

I have to go offline soon - but I will be back later.

All the best.


I normally wouldn't use baking soda, but trying it out once shouldn't hurt, right?

ktani
May 20th, 2008, 10:01 PM
DolphinPrincess

No, I do not think that trying it once should do any harm.

It is alkaline but not drastically so - pH 8.

If the condition of your hair this time is not as soft - that could be the reason but I do not believe that the results will be lasting, from reports that I have read about it.

No point in stressing over it - the odds IMO, are that everything will be just fine.

I am signing off now.

Relax and enjoy the next 40 odd minutes or so.

I look forward to reading how it goes.

LadyPolaris
May 20th, 2008, 10:56 PM
LadyPolaris

I did not mean to imply that after an hour the peroxide degrades.

I just do not think that leaving the treatment on the hair longer than 1 hour is necessary. (...)

I think that you could also switch from cinnamon to cardamom as a spice booster, after patch testing it first.

I think that it is a better choice. I do not think that it is potentially as much of an irritant and it might yield even better results.

Got it. :) I think I'm doing these 3 hour treatments more out of habit (used to leaving henna in for hours on end) than out of logic, but as long as it doesn't do any harm I'll probably keep them 2 or 3 hours long.

I'd love to try cardamom. Next time I go by spices I'll try to find some! I'm not sure if it's sold here though, I never looked for it before.



LadyPolaris, I can't wait to see how your hair comes out.

What do you all think of my using a spray bottle? Would the cinnamon "grits" be tiny enough to get through the sprayer along with the water/honey?

Thank you :) I can't wait either! Hopefully tomorrow will bring some good light in so I can post a better picture.

The cinnamon grits were enough to clog from time to time the nozzle of that large syringe I was using to put the mix in my hair. I think a spray bottle wouldn't get the little bits through at all... sorry! But the spray bottle is an excellent idea, much more practical. Maybe cardamom won't be so gritty?

Gabriel
May 20th, 2008, 11:02 PM
I was curious about honey for lightening and decided to try it... I kind of ended up mad scientist like and didn't follow the recipes though...

1 ounce of honey
1 ounce of extra virgin olive oil
1 teaspoon of cinnamon
2 ounces of water
and just cause it was there and I like the smell, 1/4 teaspoon of ground cloves

I haven't washed it out yet... but it smells good!

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 06:45 AM
I was curious about honey for lightening and decided to try it... I kind of ended up mad scientist like and didn't follow the recipes though...

1 ounce of honey
1 ounce of extra virgin olive oil
1 teaspoon of cinnamon
2 ounces of water
and just cause it was there and I like the smell, 1/4 teaspoon of ground cloves

I haven't washed it out yet... but it smells good!

Gabriel

Thank you for posting your recipe.

I wish you luck with this - the recipe is a bit heavy on the oil and IMO, 50% short on the water needed to achieve maximum potential lightening but it does sound like it would smell very good. Depending on the honey, I think you can get lightening from it, if you keep the treatment wet while it is on your hair - covering your hair with plastic is recommended.

Please let me know how it goes.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 10:46 AM
The Successful Honeys List - honeys reported to work well in honey lightening recipes.

As you can see there are more brand names than types of honey - that does not matter - the brand is important too - different brands of clover honey for example have been reported to work differently.

Australia
Coles (Australian supermarket) own brand Organic honey
Jarrah honey

Barnes Honey available at Coles Supermarkets

Brazil
Bio21 orange blossom honey

Finland
SAM honey

SAM Gourmet Italian forest honey (Italian metsä hunaja)

Italy
black locust honey

New Zealand
manuka honey

North America (Canada and the U.S.)
honey in bear shaped plastic bottle from Walmart

Billy Bee clover honey

Roundy's Grade A honey (Canadian, generic store brand)

Norway
Ekte honning honey

Poland
Raw wildflower honey

UK
Aldi "Specially Selected Clover Honey"

Asda's own brand "Clear Honey" (a blend of EC and non EC honey) No honey residue reported.

Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys)

Sainsburys Basics brand honey

Waitrose Wildflower honey

U.S.
Acme Brand Clover honey

Ambrosia Honey Co. honey

America's Choice Pure Honey

Aunt Sue's Raw All Natural honey

Aunt Sue's Raw Wild Natural honey

Burleson's Grade A Fancy clover honey

Busy Bee clover honey

Capilano Australian honey, from Kroger

Hannaford Brand honey, in a bear bottle

Honey Bee clover honey

Hyvee brand honey

Laney brand alfalfa honey

Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey (Fred Meyer and Kroger stores)

Nature's Energy honey (Natures grocery store)

Ralph's brand pure clover honey

raw, unpasteurized, blackberry honey, clover honey, orange blossom honey, tupelo honey, wildflower honey

Really Raw brand honey (goldenrod, aster and wildflower)

Safeway clover honey

Save Mart honey, in a bear bottle

Stater Brothers honey

Stoller's Busy Bee - Bear shaped container

Sue Bee clover honey

Target's Market Pantry honey (In a little bear bottle)

Trader Joe's 100% desert mesquite honey, clover blossom honey

Wegmans' brand Clover honey

Western Family Clover honey

Whole Foods 365 Organic Wildflower honey

Whole Foods Wildflower Amber honey

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 11:18 AM
I am making another new recommendation.

Because it has not been reported to be irritating so far, and because of its very high peroxide level (compared to other spices), I now recomend using cardamom instead of cinnamon.

I am trying to eliminate potential problems with honey lightening.

Conditioners were the first problem, with possible ingredients that could interfere with lightening and now with their water content.

Eliminating conditioners from the recipes solves both problems. They no longer serve a purpose in the recipes with the new dilution, IMO.

Cinnamon irritation has been mentioned in reports frequently. Thankfully, the problem has been temporary but to me, it is troubling.

Replacing cinnamon with cardamom makes sense to me at this time.

DolphinPrincess has used cardamom a few times now in her mixes, even in the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilutions, with no reported problems, to date.

She had major irritation previously from using cinnamon, that cleared up quickly but was alarming.

Cardamom may even take honey lightening to the next level.

Please do not use too much cardamom until you know how well you can tolerate it and of course, patch test it first.

Cardamom has traditionally been used to whiten teeth and freshen breath (chewing the seeds) and has been used to treat redness on skin.

POV - Peroxide value of spices. Cardamom has the highest peroxide level listed here - its small Vitamin C content IMO, should be compensated for by its POV. The other spices listed with high POV's can be irritants.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

kimki
May 21st, 2008, 02:54 PM
Just wanted to add, I tried a second treatment tonight but this time with Cinnamon as I didn't have any Cardamom. I found it very irritating too. My scalp got sore quite quickly.

Also, I used a mister for the last treatment and I found it worked very well. This time it got clogged almost immediately.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 03:04 PM
Just wanted to add, I tried a second treatment tonight but this time with Cinnamon as I didn't have any Cardamom. I found it very irritating too. My scalp got sore quite quickly.

Also, I used a mister for the last treatment and I found it worked very well. This time it got clogged almost immediately.

kimki

Thank you for posting that.

How does your scalp feel now?

Cinnamon can be a problem.

The mister might not work with cardamom for application.

I think the trade off though in results will be worth using a tint or blush brush instead, before covering the hair with plastic - a bag or wrap.

I do not recommend misting an uncovered treatment to keep it moist - for those who do so as a method.

The hair needs to be wet without interruption IMO, covered with plastic, during the treatment.

kimki
May 21st, 2008, 03:09 PM
kimki

Thank you for posting that.

How does your scalp feel now?

Cinnamon can be a problem.

The mister might not work with cardamom for application.

I think the trade off though in results will be worth using a tint or blush brush instead, before covering the hair with plastic - a bag or wrap.

I do not recommend misting an uncovered treatment to keep it moist - for those who use this method.

The hair needs to be wet without interruption IMO, covered with plastic, during the treatment.

My scalp is fine now thank you. But I did rinse with quite a bit of cold water before it stopped stinging. With the mister the other day, I put the mix in the mister, stood over the sink and used it to spray all over, massaging it in. Then I covered the hair with cling film. Perhaps a brush would work better as I am trying to concentrate on the henna round the back of my hair as my roots are actually a little blonder.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 03:18 PM
kimki

I am glad to read that you like others, suffered no lasting effects from cinnamon irritation.

However, do not use cinnamon again IMO, if you run out of cardamom.

Replace it with a bit of extra virgin olive oil if you can or coconut oil or do without a peroxide booster.

I think that using chamomile tea as the water base wih cardaomom is a good idea - it counters irritation and may contribute to ligtening.

I think because you massaged in the mix, that may have helped cause extra irritation with the cinnamon.

What I love about the brush technique - is the control factor - you can put the honey lightening treatment where you want it to be on your hair.

kimki
May 21st, 2008, 03:22 PM
Thank you Ktani I will be getting some more cardamom instead. It's a shame because I really like the smell of the cinnamon.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 03:24 PM
kimki

So do I but it is better to eat it than wear it - and from the increasing number of irritation reports - suffer because of it.

DolphinPrincess
May 21st, 2008, 03:25 PM
After my treatment last night, I have definite lightening. Hopefully I'll get pictures today or tomorrow. I just want to add that cardamom washes/rinses out of hair MUCH easier than cinnamon! However, for $10 a bottle, I have to use it sparingly.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 03:32 PM
DolphinPrincess

I am absolutely thrilled for you!

From the start when I saw that spice list and researched cardamom, I believed it might be a better choice than cinnamon.

But it needed testing.

That is where all of you come in.

The research pointed the way - I would never recommend something with serious problems - and cinnamon at first yielded great reported results in this thread when mixed with honey, in a lightening treatment.

The research indicated that it might be a problem for skin, but the reports had not shown that to be the case at first.

I am so pleased that cardamom is proving itself.

kimki
May 21st, 2008, 03:33 PM
Quick question if I may ktani. I know your keeping some records of peoples results.

How many people have reported lightening from honey compared to those who notice no difference?

Just curious. :)

LadyPolaris
May 21st, 2008, 03:38 PM
Okay, today we had a sliver of sunlight! (Not enough for a beautiful direct sunlight picture though!) I took the photo in the same conditions as the first one, for consistency.

Here's my first picture - one day after my 1st honey+cinnamon treatment. My 4 parts water were actually 2 parts conditioner, 2 parts warm chamomile tea. 2tbsp cinnamon, no other additives. Bio21 honey (supposedly orange blossom). Left on for 3 hours.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/4da56c3f.jpg


And here's my second picture - one day after my 2nd honey+cinnamon treatment. I used all 4 parts cool chamomile tea this time, 2tbsp cinnamon like last time PLUS 1/2 tbsp coconut oil. Same Bio21 honey. Left on for 3 hours as well.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/5c071ad1.jpg


I can definitely see the henna fading away into an orange fox fur color. The rest of my hair seems to be slowly becoming less of a medium-dark ashy brown and more of a medium warm brown. :joy:

Many thanks to ktani for her research!

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 03:49 PM
kimki

That is a difficult question to answer without giving you some background.

I now know much more about how to get honey lightening to work and work better than in the previous 4 Honey threads.

It is not just the honey itself than can produce little peroxide - it is the dilution - it was the possibly the conditioner previously and it definitely is the method that can make the difference in successful honey lightening.

Also previously, I did not know about the effect Vitamin C would have in a honey lightening recipe.

All of these things could have played a part in unsuccessful honey lightening results.

So, to cut to the chase - there have been more successful reported cases of honey lightening in the Honey threads than not or the threads would not have continued.

How many of the unsuccessful cases could be turned around now?

I'd say most of them IMO, but I cannot give you a number or an exact count - and with the new information I think that there will be many more successful honey lightening reports.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 04:01 PM
LadyPolaris

I am so pleased for you that the lightening has taken your gorgeous hennaed hair from burgundy to more of an orange/red shade.

I see no burgundy colour at all.

Thank you as well for the pictures.

I think that in a chamomile tea base with just cardamom, honey and a bit of extra virgin olive oil - you will get even better results.

kimki
May 21st, 2008, 04:11 PM
Ktani thank you for an excellent response, I didn't think of it like that. :)

LadyPolaris I can see a definate change too. Beautiful hair.

LadyPolaris
May 21st, 2008, 04:16 PM
LadyPolaris

I am so pleased for you that the lightening has taken your gorgeous hennaed hair from burgundy to more of an orange/red shade.

Thank you as well for the pictures.

I think that in a chamomile tea base with just cardamom, honey and a bit of extra virgin olive oil - you will get even better results.

You are too kind! :o

The recipe you suggested is exactly what I plan on doing next! I have the EVOO now (thanks hubby!). I just have to hunt for some cardamom. I wonder if fresh cardamom as opposed to less-than-fresh ground cardamom will make a huge difference... let's see what I can find. :) Trying to increase that peroxide release!

I wonder if the food thickeners some ladies use in their henna recipes would be usable in our honey lightening recipe. Lawsone is a tough cookie in comparison to our shy peroxide concentration.

Also, this mix was rather hard to wash off the hair - I had to use conditioner to get it all out (although not nearly as much conditioner as I go through when I wash henna out!). I didn't need anything to wash off the former 2-part conditioner recipe, well, except for water! I wonder if our current recipe is moisturizing enough on the hair - specially now that we're trying to really bring out some more peroxide. I'm afraid to add pure aloe vera gel, essential oils etc., as they may tamper with the peroxide release.

LadyPolaris
May 21st, 2008, 04:21 PM
LadyPolaris I can see a definate change too. Beautiful hair.

:o Thank you so much!! I'm so glad there's a noticeable change! It's an excellent motivation to keep doing these great treatments. And thank you for the very kind compliment, it means a lot coming from someone with such gorgeous tresses! :)

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 04:33 PM
After my treatment last night, I have definite lightening. Hopefully I'll get pictures today or tomorrow. I just want to add that cardamom washes/rinses out of hair MUCH easier than cinnamon! However, for $10 a bottle, I have to use it sparingly.


LadyPolaris

As you can see, the cardamom should be easier to wash out as an added bonus using it instead of cinnamon and there was no reported irritation, using it with chamomile tea.

I have read that it is better to buy the cardamom pods and grind the seeds yourself.

However, I have also read that good quaity ground cardamom can be bought for a reasonable price.

It is up to you.

As for the price - it may be more expensive than cinnamon but you are trading better results IMO, for a difficult, irritating product and you will possibly be saving money as well by no longer needing to use conditioner in the honey lightening treatment recipes.

Previously with cinnamon and conditioner in her honey lightening recipes, DolphinPrincess was not getting lightening results.

The new dilution, 4 parts water to 1 part honey - or in this case herbal tea (chamomile) + cardamom and EVOO (extra virgin oive oil) has turned that around.

DolphinPrincess's current recipe -1 cup chamomile tea, 1/4 cup honey, 2 tablespoons cardamom, 1 tablespoon EVOO.

LadyPolaris
May 21st, 2008, 05:13 PM
Oh, that's awesome info! Thank you ktani for the very quick clarification! :) It's great to know that cardamom washes out more easily. I cannot wait to get my hands in some - let's see what quality cardamom I can find!

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 05:19 PM
LadyPolaris

You are most welcome.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 05:26 PM
Cardamom

"The two main genera of the ginger family that are named as forms of cardamom ...

Elettaria (commonly called cardamom, green cardamom, or true cardamom) ...

Amomum (commonly known as black cardamom, brown cardamom, Kravan, Java cardamom, Bengal cardamom, Siamese cardamom, white or red cardamom) ...."

It appears that both the brown or black and the green forms of cardamom are used in medicine and food although the black or brown is reported to have a more "astringent aroma". See "Uses"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom)



and this It is recommended that one buy cardamom in the pods and then grind the seeds. Note: The substitutes named in the link below are for recipe flavour - nutmeg is an irritant and ground clove has a comparatively (to cinnamon or cardamom) very low peroxide value.

"It best to buy cardamom seeds still encased in their natural flavor-protecting pods .... discard after you remove the seeds. You can also buy cardamom without the pods, called cardamom seeds = decorticated cardamom .... the unprotected seeds lose flavor quickly. Ground cardamom seeds ... less flavorful .... Recipes that call for cardamom ... intend for you to use green cardamom ... named for the green pods .... Some producers bleach the green hulls to a pale tan .... this makes them less aromatic. .... Equivalents: One pod yields 1/6 teaspoon cardamom."
http://www.foodsubs.com/SpiceUniv.html#cardamom



Wiki though, has this to say on ground cardamom.

".... high-quality ground cardamom is often more readily (and cheaply) available, and is an acceptable substitute."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom

An encore of notes on cardamom.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 05:41 PM
Cardamom was reported in the source on the peroxide level of spices, to have the highest level of all of the spices named.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

Cardamom can be an irritant too but it appears that it may be less of one than cinnamon.

Turmeric can yield a bright yellow colour and nutmeg has irritant propertis too.

See "Adverse Reactions" for nutmeg
"Allergy, contact dermatitis, and asthma have been reported..."
http://www.drugs.com/npp/nutmeg.html



Cardamom and skin

This is one of the 2 common types of cardamom
“Contact sensitivity to cardamom and to certain terpenoid compounds … in the dried seeds was reported …
No evidence has been presented of irritation from Oil of Cardamom in perfumes …” Note: A constituent of cinnamon oil is the major irritant reported but it is not peroxide.
http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermZ/ZING.html (http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermZ/ZING.html)

Spice factory workers and skin irritation - cinnamon was found to be a common irritant. Half of the workers reported skin irritation symptoms from different spices.
“Irritant patch test reactions were seen from powders of cardamom …”
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0536.1993.tb03538.x?journalCode=cod (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0536.1993.tb03538.x?journalCode=cod)

“cardamom. Terpene … major constituents … can be a skin irritant and sensitizer.”
http://www.paulaschoice.com.au/learn/dictionary.asp?keys=sensitizer&type=FIND (http://www.paulaschoice.com.au/learn/dictionary.asp?keys=sensitizer&type=FIND)

Cardamom may be a better choice than cinnamon as a honey lightening booster although again - caution is recommended.

"Contact dermatitis ... reported after single exposure and repeated use of cinnamon...." See "Adverse Reactions" Note: I have posted this link and information before - reports in this thread on the overuse of cinnamon and in the cinnamon thread support this information.
http://www.drugs.com/npp/cinnamon.html



Cardamom
"The two main genera of the ginger family that are named as forms of cardamom ...
Elettaria (commonly called cardamom, green cardamom, or true cardamom) ...
Amomum (commonly known as black cardamom, brown cardamom, Kravan, Java cardamom, Bengal cardamom, Siamese cardamom, white or red cardamom) ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom

Cardamom safety from the source on the peroxide values of spices. Note: the reference is for theraputic doses, not topical use, specifically.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=8AJkBmPDRUUC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=cardamom+contraindications&source=web&ots=MKC8ue0wAF&sig=0dQ-CUw_GftW7QnKWidwF2Yfp1U&hl=en

Cardamom safety
See "Safety"
"No toxicity ... reported for cardamom ... care needs to be taken that the plant being used is cardamom ... not a substitute."
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_western_medicine.html

An encore of cardamom safety.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 05:42 PM
I cannot stress enough or repeat too often IMO, that care be taken with ingredients that one is not familiar with for the use intended - please patch test and use carefully after thoroughly researching an ingredient's safety.

Skincare and other uses for Cardamom

"... traditional uses of cardamom to treat skin conditions ... it has been used traditionally to treat areas of the body that have red-pigmentation." http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html (http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html)


"Cardamom oil is aromatic with antibaterial properties ... used in cosmetics and chewing gums.
"Cardamon oil ... used in cosmetics because of its cooling properties ... easily incorporated into different solutions.
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_other_uses.html (http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_other_uses.html)


See "Hand picked"
“The ancient Egyptians chewed cardamom to whiten their teeth and ... sweeten their breath.
Applied topically, cardamom .... used as an insect repellent."
http://pr.sv.net/aw/2006/January2006/english/pages002.htm


Cardamom essential oil, (which is much more concentrated than the oil you would get from the seeds normally) as with most essential oils, should not be used straight or undiluted, IMO.
Cardamom whole natural essential oil
http://www.libertynatural.com/msd/1914.htm


An encore of cardamom uses.

Celebrian
May 21st, 2008, 06:08 PM
Ktani, I have a bottle of Cardamom pods. Before I read about this, and whilst henna'ing a couple of days ago, I bit into about 16 pods to crack the hulls and then placed them in boiling water and left to steep overnight. I had heard that the fragrance would combat the smell of henna...

Anyway, the aroma was gorgeous - and the cup smelled glorious even after the liquid was poured out of it and into my henna mix. My hair does smell better since then - but what I was trying to ask (longwindedly) was why ground seeds are better than the steeping of seeds. Has steeping been tried and dismissed - or is the info. under my nose and have I missed it? :o

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 06:15 PM
Celebrian

The list on the peroxide levels of spices is based on the ground spice and there has been no mention in uses of steeping the seeds in boiled water.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

You can experiment if you like but heat might and probably will affect the peroxide level.

I recommend using the ground spice with no heat.

Islandgrrl
May 21st, 2008, 06:52 PM
I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right place, so if I'm not, feel free to smack me around a bit and tell me where to go!

I wasn't aware of the lightening effects of honey until I just finished up with this thread (whew - loads of good reading!) and couldn't figure out why my hair seemed to be getting lighter with every SMT I've done. Now I know and I'm very relieved that it wasn't my imagination. I like what's happening to my hair.

I do have a couple of quesitons.

I'll start by saying that I have naturally medium auburn hair (maybe on the dark side of medium) that's graying around the temple area at an alarming rate (eep!). So I started using henna to cover the gray. I did two full head applications with the longest one being about 3 hours, shortest one about half that time, and I've been henna glossing about once a month subsequent to the "root jobs." Of late I've been noticing that my hair is taking on a burgundy tone that I'm not happy with. I'd always assumed henna was totally permanent so resigned myself to it, but then I started doing SMTs and noticed the lightening.

I'm confused about a couple of things. First one being application on wet hair and how that effects lightening as opposed to including water in with the honey. Same thing or different things?

Also, cinnamon helps lighten and bring out golden tones? Do I have that right?

What is the potential for damage to the hair using honey? I'd always thought that honey was a moisturizing agent. Do I have that wrong, too?

Again, if I've made an inapporpriate post, please let me know and I'll be happy to remove or delete it. :)

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 07:00 PM
I'm not sure if I'm posting this in the right place, so if I'm not, feel free to smack me around a bit and tell me where to go!

I wasn't aware of the lightening effects of honey until I just finished up with this thread (whew - loads of good reading!) and couldn't figure out why my hair seemed to be getting lighter with every SMT I've done. Now I know and I'm very relieved that it wasn't my imagination. I like what's happening to my hair.

I do have a couple of quesitons.

I'll start by saying that I have naturally medium auburn hair (maybe on the dark side of medium) that's graying around the temple area at an alarming rate (eep!). So I started using henna to cover the gray. I did two full head applications with the longest one being about 3 hours, shortest one about half that time, and I've been henna glossing about once a month subsequent to the "root jobs." Of late I've been noticing that my hair is taking on a burgundy tone that I'm not happy with. I'd always assumed henna was totally permanent so resigned myself to it, but then I started doing SMTs and noticed the lightening.

I'm confused about a couple of things. First one being application on wet hair and how that effects lightening as opposed to including water in with the honey. Same thing or different things?

Also, cinnamon helps lighten and bring out golden tones? Do I have that right?

What is the potential for damage to the hair using honey? I'd always thought that honey was a moisturizing agent. Do I have that wrong, too?

Again, if I've made an inapporpriate post, please let me know and I'll be happy to remove or delete it. :)

Islandgrrl

This is the right place and no one gets smacked around here or on these boards, lol.

An SMT is supposed to be microwaved for 30 seconds.

That will stop honey from lightening by destroying the enzyme in it that produces the peroxide.

To answer you question on wet hair - the more wet the hair is the better as honey needs to be diluted well - 4 parts water to 1 part honey to produce its maximum amount of peroxide in 1 hour.

The hair needs to be kept wet by being covered IMO, for the honey to keep producing peroxide uninterrupted.

I no longer recommend cinnamon - it is troublesome and an irritant.

I now recommend cardamom as the only spice peroxide booster.

The tones that you can get from honey lightening depend on the colour of the hair to begin with.

Honey is moisturizing - it has humectant properties.

It releases peroxide only on dilution.

There have been reports of dry hair from honey lightening - that is the result of honey residue which can be resolved with shampooing and or a vinegar rinse.

There have been no reports of honey lightening causing hair damage - weak, thin, gummy hair, breakage or split ends, to date.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 07:07 PM
Body heat does not affect the peroxide in honey, based on the research on wound healing and reported results.

However, other sources of heat can affect peroxide.

"Hydrogen peroxide .... contact with heat .... usually decompose into water and oxygen ...."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron) …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html)

This is consistant with other information I have read on heat negatively affecting the peroxide level of honey.

And why I recommend that no external heat be used with honey lightening treatments.

ktani
May 21st, 2008, 11:50 PM
I am making another new recommendation.

Because it has not been reported to be irritating so far, and because of its very high peroxide level (compared to other spices), I now recomend using cardamom instead of cinnamon.

I am trying to eliminate potential problems with honey lightening.

Conditioners were the first problem, with possible ingredients that could interfere with lightening and now with their water content.

Eliminating conditioners from the recipes solves both problems. They no longer serve a purpose in the recipes with the new dilution, IMO.

Cinnamon irritation has been mentioned in reports frequently. Thankfully, the problem has been temporary but to me, it is troubling.

Replacing cinnamon with cardamom makes sense to me at this time.

DolphinPrincess has used cardamom a few times now in her mixes, even in the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilutions, with no reported problems, to date.

She had major irritation previously from using cinnamon, that cleared up quickly but was alarming.

Cardamom may even take honey lightening to the next level.

Please do not use too much cardamom until you know how well you can tolerate it and of course, patch test it first.

Cardamom has traditionally been used to whiten teeth and freshen breath (chewing the seeds) and has been used to treat redness on skin.

POV - Peroxide value of spices. Cardamom has the highest peroxide level listed here - its small Vitamin C content IMO, should be compensated for by its POV. The other spices listed with high POV's can be irritants.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en)


An encore of my new recommendation.

GlennaGirl
May 22nd, 2008, 12:20 AM
I don't want to mess with the works here... :o but so far my cardamom experience has not been very positive.

First off, I have had no irritating effects from cinnamon.

But I read about the cardamom so I went to the grocery store to pick some up. FOURTEEN dollars. But I got it anyway. First off, the smell. Oh sweet Jesus the smell. I'm not sensitive about smells but this one honestly made me nauseated. I smell like the Bad Kids in high school who used the heaviest possible Eastern fragrance oils to cover up the smell of pot. I'm sorry...I'm not even trying to be funny, that is the first thing that came to mind.

I can still smell it even now that it's washed out twice and covered with vanilla conditioner and it is making me really sick. :(

Second...the irritation. I'm sorry, kitani. I know you said nobody else has reported irritation. This burned and itched the entire application area from the very second I put it on. I was a trooper and left it in for two hours anyway. All rinsed out now and my scalp still hurts horribly and I'm hoping desperately that I haven't harmed my scalp.

I don't know about any color change yet because it's still wet. If there is a color change, I'll be thrilled, but I will not be using cardamom again. :(

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 12:34 AM
GlennaGirl

I am so sorry that this happened to you.

I have said to patch test cardamom but that does not help you right now.

There is a warning in one of the links about making sure that what you buy is cardamom but that is no help to you at this point either.

I had recommeded to DolphinPrincess to use the cardamom in chamomile tea and not to use too much.

What did you use in in and how much did you use?

I am not trying to change your mind - I want to know for others.

In the future - if something irritates from the start - wash if off - there is no point suffering for beauty - a concept I disagree with.

For you - cinnamon is obviously a better choice - however - as I have said before - caution with spices is advised.

The 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution has allowed less spice to be used with better results than previously.

You are and haved not messed up the works as you put it.

I do not think that you have harmed your scalp.

I have had bad reactions to flax preparations and others - it took a while for my scalp to recover but there were no long term repercussions.

My worst reaction was from a condtioner ingredient - it was horrible - no long term damage though.

I do sympathize - it is a hard thing to deal with - very uncomfortable. - it will pass though, IMO.

You might try aloe gel on your scalp - that may help.

Cardamom is not for you - that is the way it is.

I still recomend it in place of cinnamon - with patch testing first.

GlennaGirl
May 22nd, 2008, 01:14 AM
ktani, I used about a tablespoon and a half of the cardamom. I use much more of the cinnamon but I did see where you advised using less at first to see if there's a reaction.

The cardamom I used is "Spice Islands Ground Cardamom". It says it is distributed by Spice Islands Trading Co., a division of ACH Food Companies, Inc., San Francisco, CA, www.spiceislands.com.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 01:23 AM
GlennaGirl

Thank you for getting back to me with the amount you used.

From that link - it looks like real cardamom.

I do not know how other varieties might be different on skin.

I understand your enthusiasm and that of others for wanting to try these things in a hurry.

I probably would have done the same thing.

Patch testing is an important part of trying anything new IMO.

I have ignored that in the past myself - and paid the price.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 01:59 AM
While anyone can react to anything - I want to take a closer look at possible different cardamom brands.

Nothing replaces patch testing though.

DolphinPrincess - what brand of cardamom did you use please?

I have posted this before - I will post it again - I recommend using cardamom in a base of chamomile tea because it can help to counter irritation.


This is from a previous post that I encored tonight.
Cardamom safety
See "Safety"
"No toxicity ... reported for cardamom ... care needs to be taken that the plant being used is cardamom ... not a substitute."
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_western_medicine.html

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 09:51 AM
I do not think that this applies to GlennaGirl's cardamom but it it worth taking note of, IMO.

"Cardamom Elettaria cardamomum
Cardamom .... is often adulterated .... many inferior substitutes from cardamom-related plants, such as Siam cardamom, Nepal cardamom, winged Java cardamom, and bastard cardamom."
http://www.pajebynight.net/spice.html

Gabriel
May 22nd, 2008, 10:09 AM
My honey treatment came out really good... not much lightening just a little bit near the lower part of my hair that I am guessing is more porus cause it's older hair, and a bit of kind of a toning effect overall... nothing earth shattering, because my hair is very dark, just a touch more golden and less red.

It left it very shiney and healthy feeling.

I will try this again following the recipe more exactly for actual lightening next time.
Oh and the cinnamon didn't bother me at all. I also kept my hair covered while it sat in my hair for about an hour and a half.

I really liked this. Thanks for all the recipes and information!

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 10:12 AM
From the research - as I posted - cardamom can be both an irritant and a sensitizer but it does not appear to be as common a problem in terms of the number of reactions - as cinnamon.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119572&postcount=877

It is not something that should be used again IMO, if you get a reaction like GlennaGirl's - that is why patch testing is recommended.

Do I patch test absolutely everything? - No.

I am guilty of hypocracy on that.

But I am the only one to pay the price of it.

I feel a sense of responsibility to all of you and recommnd only the best of what I believe in - even though I may fall short of living it myself.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 11:01 AM
Gabriel

You are most welcome.

Thank you for the update.

I am happy for you that you are so pleased with the results.

And I am very happy for you that you had no reaction to the cinnamon.

I thought that you would still get some lightening - but as I said - your recipe was 50% short of the water needed for optimal lightening results.

I am also pleased to read that the amount of oil you used did not prove to be a problem in terms of washing it out of your hair, since you mentioned no problems.

GlennaGirl
May 22nd, 2008, 02:32 PM
I understand your enthusiasm and that of others for wanting to try these things in a hurry.



Oh yup, exactly...you go that part exactly right... :p You did indeed say right away to test for irritation but did I do it? Noooooooooooo. :laugh:

I do think my reaction was unusual! I feel like many others have used this with no problems and good results.

It's not very sunny out so far today, but I'll be taking my usual 2:30 PM outdoor picture anyway and you can let me know if you see a change.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 03:34 PM
GlennaGirl

I may have rushed into this - DolphinPrincess has used cardamom a few times - she had reacted so badly to cinnamon and then more cinnamon irritation reports came in I thought - cardamom is less risky.

It is hard to say whether your reaction is an allergic one or a sensitivity - either way - you are not supposed to suffer for honey lightening IMO.

So - I will alter my recommendation to say this.

When it comes to spice peroxide boosters

1. use with caution & patch test first

2. a chamomile tea base may help counter irritation

3. cardamom is my pick but you have to see if you can tolerate it - use cinnamon if you can tolerate it better

Islandgrrl
May 22nd, 2008, 03:44 PM
ktani,

Thanks so much for the detailed reply to my post. I'm learning a lot here.

I did a honey application this morning, but have to admit that I didn't follow your instructions to the letter (I still got nice results, though).

I mixed equal parts conditioner and honey, added about 1/4 part water and slathered it on very wet hair. Popped everything up into a bun and (very, very bad girl) went and sat in the sauna for 30 minutes (can I just point out that while this may not do anything productive for the honey treatment, it does undeniably excellent things for my attitude in the morning).

Lots of rinsing with cool-ish water and OHMYGOSH, I have someone else's hair!!! It's moisturized, it's soft, it's bouncy, it's super shiny and the color is a little lighter. I didn't shampoo at all, either.

Next time, I promise, I'll do it exactly as prescribed and let you know about results.

My goal is to be able to continue with henna applications to my roots to cover the grey and do honey as needed to keep the burgundy out. Sound reasonable?

Question about cardamom. I've always purchased cardamom pods and ground them as needed for baking. I've also always assumed that the cardamoms I buy are indeed cardamoms. Is there a better chance of getting real cardamom when you purchase pods rather than ground?

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 03:51 PM
I now keep an index of posts.

bizarrogirl's first recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 1/4 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner, 6 tblsp cinnamon.
Results on 2 henndigoes with multiple henna layers underneath - 8 hours
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2397912505/in/set-72157594199905645/

2nd recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 4 tblsp cinnamon, 1/2 c up water, 1/2 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner for 1 hour.
This time it lightened the henna layers - no burgundy colour.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2454335633/in/set-72157594199905645/


More water, less cinnamon, less conditioner, same amount of honey = better results in less time by my calculations.

Islandgrrl

Thank you for your report and recipe.

I am glad that you are so pleased and that your hair is in such good condition.

The 2nd recipe and result here help lead me to the no conditioner conclusion - no burgundy.

How much more lightening could be accomplished without it altogether? Conditioners are not all water - therefore when one is used for part of the dilution - in this case at 50% - a percentage needed to complete the 4 parts water to 1 part honey is still missing.

And that diluted - a light conditioner IMO, is no longer that conditioning - so it no longer servs a purpose in any case in the treatment.

Re cardamom - while I sit here waiting to save my post - server is busy - I had read DolphinPrincess's post below.

Her cardamom worked, caused no irritation and if I remember correctly was only around $10 as opposed to GlennaGirl's $14 cardamom.

See if you can get McCormick brand ground cardamom.

For the whole pods - avoid the bleached ones - I cannot move right now and retrieve it - or I lose this post - but that information is one of the posts I encored in the last few pages - on the types of cardamom.


By the grace of the server - here it is.

"It best to buy cardamom seeds still encased in their natural flavor-protecting pods .... discard after you remove the seeds. You can also buy cardamom without the pods, called cardamom seeds = decorticated cardamom .... the unprotected seeds lose flavor quickly. Ground cardamom seeds ... less flavorful .... Recipes that call for cardamom ... intend for you to use green cardamom ... named for the green pods .... Some producers bleach the green hulls to a pale tan .... this makes them less aromatic. .... Equivalents: One pod yields 1/6 teaspoon cardamom."
http://www.foodsubs.com/SpiceUniv.html#cardamom

DolphinPrincess
May 22nd, 2008, 03:51 PM
Ktani - My cardamom is McCormick brand.

Sorry its taken me so long to get on here to answer your question!

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 04:16 PM
DolphinPrincess

Thank you so much for your reply.

No worries on the timing - the server has been a challenge.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 04:30 PM
Honeys reported to work well in honey lightening recipes. - Updated

As you can see there are more brand names than types of honey - that does not matter - the brand IMO, is more important - different brands of clover honey for example have been reported to work differently.


Brazil
Bio21 orange blossom honey

North America
honey in bear shaped plastic bottle from Walmart
Billy Bee clover honey

Norway
Ekte honning honey

UK
Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys)

Sainsburys 'Basics' brand honey

U.S.
Aunt Sue's Raw All Natural honey

Laney Brand alfalfa honey

Nature's Energy honey (Natures grocery store)

Ralph's brand pure clover honey

Stater Brothers honey

Sue Bee clover honey

Target's Market Pantry Honey (In a little bear bottle)

Trader Joe's 100% desert mesquite honey, clover blossom honey

Wegmans' brand Clover honey

Western Family Clover honey

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 04:34 PM
Gabriel and Islandgrrl

Your honeys please to add to the list.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 04:37 PM
GlennaGirl

I look forward to your new picture - but much more important to me right now - please update the condition of your scalp!

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 06:02 PM
I do not expect people to read every page or post in this thread.

That is why I update and have a record of posts to illustrate information.

The latest information is in the last few pages as things progress.

Anyone can post a question or pm me - I will reply to both methods.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 06:24 PM
Page on McCormick cardamom.

Seeds - imported from India
Ground - from Central America
http://www.mccormick.com/recipelist.cfm?SearchMethod=explicit&SearchText=cardamom&SearchGroup=1&SearchTextDisplay=&searchType=site&pageno=2&display=site

Islandgrrl
May 22nd, 2008, 06:39 PM
Ah, it was Western Family Clover.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 06:41 PM
Islandgrrl

Thank you

DolphinPrincess
May 22nd, 2008, 08:04 PM
Yes, ktani, my cardamom was ground. Sorry, forgot that part! :p And I almost forgot, my honey was Aunt Sue's raw, all natural honey (it was the darkest in the store) and it's an offshoot of SueBee. I just finished taking some pictures too!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/042.jpg
Top of my head, hair swept over.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/043.jpg
My hair looks about this color to me indoors, maybe a little lighter.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/044.jpg
My hair in the sun. :D

These were all taken about 5:30pm pst.

wintersun99
May 22nd, 2008, 08:44 PM
DolphinPrincess...
where are you finding that your hair is lightening the most? I wonder because it does not appear that my hair is lightening at the outermost layer, but the under layers and at the roots, it has definitely lightened to the henna red, however - the outermost layer is still indigo dark. It's so weird!

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 09:08 PM
DolphinPrincess

WOW!

That is some lightening - you did it.

Amazing results.

And thank you for the honey and cardamom information.

I will add the honey to the list.

How is the condition of your hair? - it looks really shiny.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 09:16 PM
wintersun99

Until DolphinPrincess went conditioner free in her honey lightening her recipe, and stayed with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey - she did not get much lightening at all.

Your latest results while good, were still with using conditioner.

Why not try going without conditioner and either cardamom or cinnamon in 1 cup chamomile tea to 1/4 cup honey and 1 tblsp EVOO as DolphinPrincess did?

She used 2 tablespoons cardamom this time - you would need to patch test it first.

DolphinPrincess
May 22nd, 2008, 09:30 PM
DolphinPrincess...
where are you finding that your hair is lightening the most? I wonder because it does not appear that my hair is lightening at the outermost layer, but the under layers and at the roots, it has definitely lightened to the henna red, however - the outermost layer is still indigo dark. It's so weird!

It's hard for me to tell, as I'm only just starting to see the changes myself. I think it's probably the same parts as you though. Think about when you apply henna, you get the outside layers and the length the best, right? So there's the strongest concentration of dye in those areas making it the hardest part to lift and lighten.

Ktani - Thanks! Until the sun picture, I knew I had some lightening, but my goodness!

wintersun99
May 22nd, 2008, 09:31 PM
ok - well I am actually trying this newer idea right now - but with what I had on hand... ha ha - so, here's my newest concoction... don't tag it as a new mix until we find out how it turns out :)

I used:
1/8 c Nature's Energy honey
1/2 c of my Yogi Bedtime tea which has (chamomile, cardomon seed, cinnamon bark, and lots of other stuff in it)
3 tbls of cinnamon powder (mixed into the tea first, then added to honey)

it's super drippy, not sure I'm stoked about that, but we shall see....

ETA: forgot to use the EVOO, oops :)

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 09:40 PM
wintersun99

As long as your tea is all herbal with no real tea in it - you should be fine, IMO.

Real tea in the mix might cloud your results by possibly darkening your colour a bit by adding colour of its own.

It will take getting used to the more liquid mix - but - just look at the difference it makes!

I also think that you can reduce the cinnamon to 2 tblsp - the 4 to 1 dilution allows you to use less spice - less chance of irritation - and still get better results.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 09:55 PM
DolphinPrincess

It has been some journey with your hair colour.

The cinnamon irritation, no results and now this.

For you - stay with the cardamom, EVOO, chamomile tea and 4 parts tea to 1 part honey dilution.

You were the most discouraged.

Just look at your hair now!

Among the best results yet, IMO.

Bunnyears
May 22nd, 2008, 10:21 PM
Hi all.

Yesterday I had the 4 to 1 water/honey mix on for 3 hours. In fact, I would leave it on with a plastic bag wrapped very tightly for 1 hour at a time, then rinse it with water and then do it again, and again. In total I performed this three times in a row last night. BUT! As I've mentioned before, I simply cannot keep my hair from drying no matter how wet it is after 10 minutes. The roots dry right away, but the rest of the hair stays wet for hours!! I just don't know what else to do - that's probably why I'm not getting any lightening. :(
I don't know how to keep my roots wet, do you have any suggestions? Other than soaking my head upside down for an hour in a bathtub? I'm very upset. Thanks.

DolphinPrincess
May 22nd, 2008, 10:24 PM
Thanks Ktani! It might've been a bit more gradual and i just never noticed, but I don't know. :shrug:

Anyway here's my Before and After pics, along with recipe, all together in one post.

Latest Recipe:
1 c chamomile tea
1/4 c honey
2 T ground cardamom
1 T EVOO

Before: Taken at two different times, can't remember for sure when.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/016.jpg

After: Taken at 5:30 PM on May 22. Last one is in sunlight, the rest are indoors.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/041.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/042.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/043.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/044.jpg

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 10:34 PM
Hi all.

Yesterday I had the 4 to 1 water/honey mix on for 3 hours. In fact, I would leave it on with a plastic bag wrapped very tightly for 1 hour at a time, then rinse it with water and then do it again, and again. In total I performed this three times in a row last night. BUT! As I've mentioned before, I simply cannot keep my hair from drying no matter how wet it is after 10 minutes. The roots dry right away, but the rest of the hair stays wet for hours!! I just don't know what else to do - that's probably why I'm not getting any lightening. :(
I don't know how to keep my roots wet, do you have any suggestions? Other than soaking my head upside down for an hour in a bathtub? I'm very upset. Thanks.

Bunnyears

Let me see if I can suggest something a little different for you.

First - here is the list of successful honeys. Choose one if you can.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=120366&postcount=900

Next - On clean dry hair - try using cotton balls soaked in 1 cup cooled chamomile tea (room temperature), with either 2 T of cinnamon or cardamom and 1 T EVOO premixed in, to 1/4 cup honey, to apply the mixture to your roots only - pin the rest of your hair up, then cover your hair with a bag for 1 hour.

See if you can get Glad freezer bags with ties - you can stretch the opening but they fit well and there is less fiddling with them - they are what I use for my catnip tea treatments and they keep moisture in really well.

Bunnyears
May 22nd, 2008, 10:38 PM
Ktani, wow you're fast! Thanks so much!! I'll definitely try doing this right away, an hopefully it'll work. I appreciate your advice. :)

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 10:40 PM
DolphinPrincess

Thank you so much for the post with eveything there in terms of the pictures - it let me see what I thought was there by viewing them all at once.

Your 1 treatment this time took you from henndigo to lightening not just the indigo - but also the henna underneath - there is no burgundy there at all.

Amazing - just amazing.

ktani
May 22nd, 2008, 11:27 PM
DolphinPrincess

Your previous treatments might have nudged the colour - but this is the first time that you said that you noticed definite lightening and you were not mistaken - WOW!

DolphinPrincess
May 23rd, 2008, 12:05 AM
:happydance:

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 12:30 AM
LOL LOL

This is the very first time I have seen you happy with your hair colour through honey lightening.

I am so very pleased for you.

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 01:38 AM
One very important point I never addressed before regarding the herb teas for the new dilution.

Before adding the peroxide boosters or the honey - the tea must be cooled to room temperature.

Otherwise the heat will negtively affect or destroy the peroxide.

Bunnyears
May 23rd, 2008, 02:12 AM
Ktani - you're a genius! Mixing cinnamon with chamomile tea really does take he edge off the burning. I used three tea bags for one cup of water, 1 tbsp cinnamon, 1/4 cup very dark buckwheat honey, and 1 tbsp EVOO. Actually, mixing honey with EVOO before adding tea and cinnamon is much better, that way EVOO doesn't float on top.

Also, the cinnamon kind of warms the scalp in a cozy way, lol! I hate having cold hair. I hope this works, I really want blonder hair. Oh gosh, pleeeeeaaaase work!

Bunnyears
May 23rd, 2008, 02:14 AM
PS - What about cold water? My tap water runs kind of cold... does it need to be exactly room temp or can cool/cold water work just as well?

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 09:58 AM
Bunnyears

Thank you for your kind words.

There are 2 different things going on when using the herb teas in honey lightening.

1. You need to steep the herbs in boiled water to get what you need from them, although I have read of cold steeping for herbs - steeping them overnight as opposed to 20-30 minutes in boiled water.

2. The peroxide producing ingredients; the honey, the spices and the oils - which need to be added to room temperature water only.

I recommend making the tea in advance and letting it cool to room temperature, before using it.

I do not think you should be using too strong a chamomile tea each time - that herb IMO, and from my experience of going crazy with it - 8-10 teabags at a time - can cause build-up - my hair had a lot of breakage and was dry. I used German chamomile (Matricaria chamomilla) though not Roman (Anthemis nobilis) like mellie.

If you clarify regularly - the build-up should not be a problem - I did not.

Catnip tea is a specific for scalp irritation.

You can buy dried organic catnip leaves and flowers from a pet store - it is fresher there and much less expensive than using tea bags. I find, from using it on my hair to both colour and condition, that it does not build-up (I shampoo my length though by squeezing the lather from my scalp though my length each time I wash before applying it).

Catnip yields a light yellow dye though - it stains the hair - and does not have a traditional history like chamomile of lightening hair.

Catnip must be steeped in boiled water as well - to extract what you need from it.

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 10:01 AM
Honeys and Vitamin C or ascorbic acid.

Honey only produces peroxide on dilution. If there is Vitamin C in the honey, the peroxide produced on dilution will oxidize it and be depleted.
See "If you found zero:"
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

It appears that most honey contains some Vitamin C.

This helps to explain IMO, why some people have had no results from honey lightening, even when they have not added other Vitamin C containing ingredients to a recipe and used a dilution that should have yielded some lightening.

Here is a report on natural Vitamin C levels in some types of honey.

There is a table in this link that shows the Vitamin C content of different kinds of honey.

Note the reference to “reducing agent”.

High levels of ascorbic acid - Vitamin C - can cause hair to lighten - and then redarken when exposed to oxygen - as lemon juice lightening has been reported to do.

While honey lightening - with the peroxide doing the lightening has not been reported to do this - it appears that if a honey naturally contains a high enough Vitamin C content - the peroxide would be almost completely depleted IMO, and the ascorbic acid in it could cause the hair to lighten and redarken.

Note also that a number of honeys in this report were clover varieties - different clover honeys have yielded different lightening results.



“…. reported 1.6-2.8 mg. Ascorbic acid per gram of mint honey and 0.07-0.22 mg. per gram of some other samples.

…. presence of ascorbic acid in Esthonian honeys, the amount being from 0 to 20 (average 4.88 ) mg. per 100 gm.

.... identity of the strong reducing substance in thyme and mint honeys with ascorbic acid. They reported 311.2mg. and 102.6mg. of this vitamin per 100gm.

Buckwheat honeys contained from 7.36 to 18.6mg. ascorbic acid per 100 gm.

…. honeys were obtained from beekeepers in various regions of Minnesota and from other localities of the United States.

Samples of foreign honeys ….. also investigated for their vitamin content.

…. main sources of these honeys were probably sweet and white clovers.”
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/23/6/581.pdf (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/23/6/581.pdf)

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 10:05 AM
More on honey and Vitamin C

".... the results obtained was observed that linden flower honey, locust flower honey .... contain an important amount of Vitamin C, which is necessary for human body"
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:9gFYGr0sYtEJ:acta.chem-soc.si/51/51-1-169.pdf+honey+ascorbic+acid+content&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=ca (http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:9gFYGr0sYtEJ:acta.chem-soc.si/51/51-1-169.pdf+honey+ascorbic+acid+content&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=ca)


“…. the ascorbic acid content of honey ranges from 0.5-6.5mg/100g with an average of 2.4mg/100g or 5mg/ml. …. some specific varieties of honey have been reported to contain as much as 75-150mg ascorbic acid per 100g, while most honey contain less than 5mg/100g.”
http://www.noveya.com/honey.html

wintersun99
May 23rd, 2008, 10:31 AM
so, here's my newest concoction... given what ktani has suggested to me and what I had on hand at home...forgot to add EVOO...

1/8 c Nature's Energy honey
1/2 c of my Yogi Bedtime tea which has (chamomile, cardomom seed, cinnamon bark, and lots of other herbal mixes of stuff in it)
3 tbls of cinnamon powder (mixed into the tea first, then added to honey)

It worked well, a little too well, actually - as my roots and underlayers are lightening at lightning speed and the indigo'd outermost layers are not lightening as quickly (but are doing so, a bit) so, I think I may need to stop until my hair grows enough to do the bottom half only, as I believe I'm lightening the non-indigo'd hair a little too much! in fact, I'm lighter than my natural, virgin hair up top, now... :rolleyes:

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 10:39 AM
wintersun99

Thank you for the update.

This kind if thing has been reported to happen twice with honey lightening - hair lightened more than what was wanted.

You could do what GlennaGirl has been doing - applying the treatment only to the areas she wants lightened - in her case the middle of the back length.

wintersun99
May 23rd, 2008, 10:40 AM
yep - I will have to start doing that now, (or rather - in a bit when my hair grows enough that I can start applying to ears down, without overlapping) it's a bit too short for that now... high fives to all... keep it up! :)

kimki
May 23rd, 2008, 11:01 AM
:o Thank you so much!! I'm so glad there's a noticeable change! It's an excellent motivation to keep doing these great treatments. And thank you for the very kind compliment, it means a lot coming from someone with such gorgeous tresses! :)

Aww thank you :o I only just saw this and it really made me smile. Thank you.

Islandgrrl
May 23rd, 2008, 11:02 AM
I followed directions (for once in my life) and did the 4:1 water:honey application last night. Put a produce bag on my head and wrapped it in a towel (man, that's drippy stuff) and left it there for an hour. Rinsed it all off, towel dried for a bit and then damp bunned and went to bed.

Let me just say that I love my hair today. The henna has lightened enough that the burgundy cast is gone and my color is back where it belongs. I'm definitely doing the happy dance! :happydance:

I'll see if I can scare up a camera for photos. I'm seriously lacking in that department. :(

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 11:07 AM
Islandgrrl

Fantastic news!

Thank you so much for reporting.

Directions are not always a bad thing, lol.

I look forward to your picture.

Islandgrrl
May 23rd, 2008, 11:13 AM
An addition to my method last night:

I used the raw, unpasteurized locally grown honey last night. As I mentioned, it's from a neighbor's farm and it's blackberry honey (very, very tasty stuff).

I filtered the honey first by putting it through cheesecloth to remove the, um, impurities and then added it to room temperature well water, saturated my hair and put a plastic produce bag on my head, covered with a towel for an hour (which was about all I could stand, really...it got a little itchy but not like irritated itchy...like cold-damp-stuff-on-your-head-and-dripping-down-your-neck itchy ). Rinsed, fingercombed, towel dried and damp bunned for bed.

Gorgeous this morning. Perfect and soft and shiny. I think I have a new love affair with honey!

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 11:17 AM
Islandgrrl

Thank you for the details and the new honey!

I have some new honeys to add to the list today - including yours.

I am also pleased that you included information on the condition of you hair and that like all other reports, except for those on honey residue dryness, which is temporary, all is well and more.

Islandgrrl
May 23rd, 2008, 11:21 AM
Thanks, ktani.

I should add the the color is very accurate now to my avatar photo, and less like my profile photo color (which was very mice, but to dark for my taste).

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 11:35 AM
Islandgrrl

I love the shade in your avatar - a beautiful coppery colour!

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 11:38 AM
Honeys reported to work well in honey lightening recipes.

Updated

As you can see there are more brand names than types of honey - that does not matter - the brand IMO, is more important - different brands of clover honey for example have been reported to work differently.


Brazil
Bio21 orange blossom honey


North America
Always Save Pure Honey, distributed by Wholesale Grocers Inc.

Billy Bee clover honey

honey in bear shaped plastic bottle from Walmart


Norway
Ekte honning honey


UK
Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys)

Sainsburys 'Basics' brand honey


U.S.
Aunt Sue's Raw All Natural honey

Laney Brand alfalfa honey

Nature's Energy honey (Natures grocery store)

Ralph's brand pure clover honey

raw, unpasteurized, blackberry honey, clover honey, orange blossom honey, tupelo honey, wildflower honey

Save Mart honey, in a bear bottle

Stater Brothers honey

Sue Bee clover honey

Target's Market Pantry Honey (In a little bear bottle)

Trader Joe's 100% desert mesquite honey, clover blossom honey

Wegmans' brand Clover Honey

Western Family Clover

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 03:20 PM
Bunnyears

You said that you were currently using a dark buckwheat honey.

Have a look at this post
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=121037&postcount=927

Then look at these numbers from there.

"Buckwheat honeys contained from 7.36 to 18.6mg. ascorbic acid per 100 gm."
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/23/6/581.pdf

The ascorbic acid or Vitamin C content of buckwheat honey can be fairly high for example in less than 1/2 a cup - compare that to the Vitamin C content of other ingredients here in this post.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

It is possible that a honey that you are using contains enough Vitamin C to cause the honey's peroxide value to be of little use to you for honey lightening.

If you can - see if you can use one of the honeys from the successful honey list.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=121169&postcount=939

As to why your roots are drying so fast - it could be the size of the area itself - 2 inches or so is so small that body heat may be working to dry it faster - in your cases if that is so - just apply the mix with cotton balls to the roots only - and mist the root area only for the next hour to keep it wet. Also make sure that your tea is room temperature only before adding the honey,spice and oil. While bagging is still the method I recommend - in your case misting instead may be the only way to keep that area wet.

Islandgrrl
May 23rd, 2008, 04:18 PM
Islandgrrl

I love the shade in your avatar - a beautiful coppery colour!

Thanks very much!

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 05:58 PM
I knew from this link See "If you found zero"
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

that thyme and mint honeys contain Vitamin C.

I did not though know how much Vitamin C they could contain until I found this research.

".... identity of the strong reducing substance in thyme and mint honeys with ascorbic acid. They reported 311.2mg. and 102.6mg. of this vitamin per 100gm.
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/23/6/581.pdf

or that most honeys contain at least some Vitamin C
See the table in the link above.

It has been some revelation.

And it means that other honeys, besides mint or thyme honey can also naturally deplete their own peroxide produced on dilution, no doubt completely, without any other factors concerning method or dilution for honey lightening.

The good news is though that there is now a successful honeys list for honey lightening - to help eliminate the guesswork involved in choosing a honey for honey lightening treatments.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=121169&postcount=939

Gabriel
May 23rd, 2008, 06:07 PM
hi ktani!

the honey I used is called Always Save Pure Honey.

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 06:11 PM
Gabriel

Thank you - I do need a location though to put it on the list - North America? U.S.? please.

Gabriel
May 23rd, 2008, 06:26 PM
oops! Sorry! I bought it in North America (Texas). The brand is distributed by Wholesale Grocers Inc. Kansas. There's a stamp that says product of USA and Canada on it too.

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 06:34 PM
Gabriel

Thank you for the fast reply.

ETA: It is on the list!

ktani
May 23rd, 2008, 06:55 PM
The reseach that talked about mint and thyme honeys and Vitamin C, and gave me the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution that I applied to honey lightening treatments, also talked about catalase (spelled incorrectly in the link), being present in honey, as a possible reason when measuring honey peroxide levels, for finding a 0 peroxide level.

Catalase converts hydrogen peroxide to water and oxygen.

So, if you live in an area outside of those named on the successful honeys list - just try to find a dark coloured honey blend and if your results with honey lightening are negative after following the 4 to 1 dilution and the recommended method - keep trying different honeys - you are bound IMO, to find one that will work.

kimki
May 24th, 2008, 07:50 AM
Hiya,

I wanted to mention that although I don't have any before/after pictures to show you, I can tell you my hair must of lightened a fair bit. I went to see a friend today who I haven't seen for a week and the first thiing he said was 'Wow your hair has got lighter'. :cheese:

I have a picture from the end of April taken inside. I will try and take a couple today see if we can get a comparison.

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 08:03 AM
kimki

I am so pleased for you - it is really nice to get confirmation of lightening from others.

I look forward to whatever pictures that you can post - if you also include a before picture - I will add them both to the Pictures Post.

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 10:47 AM
Back in the original Honey thread, iris and I both researched and theorized on how honey lightening worked.

As it turns out iris had been right on the mark about Vitamin C and antioxidants early on - but somehow that information never got applied to honey lightening recommendations or was used in the analysis of all of the recipes.

The honey tomato recipe for example, never got analyzed in terms of its Vitamin C content, by either of us, for its consequences to the recipe peroxide level.

Even so, I give full credit to iris for realizing the Vitamin C connection before I did.


Originally posted by iris

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1013697&postcount=218
january 30, 2007


"I actually believe the honey doesn't do anything in this mix, - in
theory, the antioxidants in amla should make the honey ineffective."
april 14, 2007
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1098300&postcount=718


"I think the honey is actually the least likely suspect in this mix -
amla is supposed to be very high in vitamin C, and even if mine wouldn't
be for some reason, the dyestuff in hibiscus is an antioxidant"
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1086653&postcount=669


"Other solutions: use a honey that is naturally low in peroxide (I think
thyme honey was one), or add an antioxidant that would catch the
peroxide before your hair does. Something like vitamin C powder might
work? IIRC, the reason thyme honey is low in peroxide, is that it has a
lot of vitamin C in it."
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1098303&postcount=719

"What the malibu will do is neutralize the hydrogen peroxide. The
vitamin C - a reducing agent - will react with the hydrogen peroxide and
neutralize it. "
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1398001&postcount=120


"We've seen before that the honey research people found that honeys that
are naturally high in antioxidants, are very low in H2O2. So
antioxidants do affect peroxide levels in honey negatively, as they should."
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1086929&postcount=671

Bunnyears
May 24th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Ktani,

I tried the new recipe with honey, cinnamon, and olive oil, and chamomile and it seems to be working better than honey/water alone. I dont know if it produced any lightening, but I think I have less of an overall ashy tone and more of honey gold lol! Much better, not sure whether it's from honey lightening or chamomile.

Coud you please explain how the addition of cinnamon and oilve oil boost peroxide in honey? Because when I do use cinnamon I DO feel like there's more action going on, as I've experienced absoutely NO difference with honey alone.

PS - I looked at Target's Market Pantry and it's a lot ligter than some of the honeys I've already tried... how does the darkness of the honey relate to peroxide level? Blackseed honey is pitch black - does that mean it's the highest in peroxide levels?
Thanks! You're so knowlegeable about this:)

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 12:58 PM
Ktani,

I tried the new recipe with honey, cinnamon, and olive oil, and chamomile and it seems to be working better than honey/water alone. I dont know if it produced any lightening, but I think I have less of an overall ashy tone and more of honey gold lol! Much better, not sure whether it's from honey lightening or chamomile.

Coud you please explain how the addition of cinnamon and oilve oil boost peroxide in honey? Because when I do use cinnamon I DO feel like there's more action going on, as I've experienced absoutely NO difference with honey alone.

PS - I looked at Target's Market Pantry and it's a lot ligter than some of the honeys I've already tried... how does the darkness of the honey relate to peroxide level? Blackseed honey is pitch black - does that mean it's the highest in peroxide levels?
Thanks! You're so knowlegeable about this:)

Bunnyears

Thank you.

Honey produces peroxide on dilution - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey gives you the maximum honey peroxide level in 1 hour.

Extra virgin olive oil - not olive oil, can have the highest oil peroxide level that I have read about, and cinnamon and cardamom both have high peroxide levels compared to most spices - cardamom having the highest on the list I found.

While the EVOO and spice peroxide levels are not as high as the peroxide level in honey can be - added to the honey - they can boost the recipe peroxide level on the whole.

As to dark coloured honeys - research I read that said that in general, dark coloured honey blends tended to have higher peroxide levels than other honeys.

I believe it is blackberry honey not blackseed honey that you are referring to on the list.

Bunnyears
May 24th, 2008, 01:38 PM
http://www.amazingherbs.com/blackseedhoney.html
Nope, here's the link the the Black Seed Honey, I saw it at a Middle Eastern store.

Thanks for answering my other questions. Yes, I use EVOO - and I can't wait to try cardamom, too. Can you use both cardamom and cinamon? Thanks!

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 01:52 PM
http://www.amazingherbs.com/blackseedhoney.html
Nope, here's the link the the Black Seed Honey, I saw it at a Middle Eastern store.

Thanks for answering my other questions. Yes, I use EVOO - and I can't wait to try cardamom, too. Can you use both cardamom and cinamon? Thanks!

Bunnyears

I was referring to the succesful honeys list.

No, the colour of the honey alone does not necessarily reflect the honey's peroxide value.

The research referred to dark coloured honey blends.

I think that you should use a honey from the list.

The colour of the honey in your link is coming from the addition of black seed oil- not the honey itself - in all of the varieties.

Here is just one of them.

"Energizing Blend Honey
Pure Black Seed Oil, Ginger, Ginseng, and Ginkgo Biloba in Pure, Raw Natural Honey."
http://www.amazingherbs.com/blackseedhoney.html

Bunnyears
May 24th, 2008, 02:33 PM
Great thanks!! Awesome, I'll definitely try Target's Market Pantry honey (it's the only one available in NY from the success list.) Trader Joe's must be somewhere around too, I'll have to look in Manhattan. Thank you for all the help!

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 02:38 PM
Bunnyears

You are very welcome.

kimki
May 24th, 2008, 03:09 PM
So, I took a couple of pictures today. Please forgive the dirty hair, looking a bit lank and desperate for a wash!

It does show the different colours and the almost burgundy underneath colour.

Do you notice a difference? I think my general colour looks lighter around my face as my lighter natural colour is growing.

1st May:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f362/kim5uk/IMG_5021.jpg

Today after 2 treatments:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f362/kim5uk/IMG_5027.jpg

Two toned :D:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f362/kim5uk/IMG_5029.jpg

I hope the pictures aren't too big I have resized them.

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 03:24 PM
kimki

Those are really great results!

Thank you for posting the pictures.

Yes, your hair is definitely both lighter and less burgundy.

While I do keep post records - they are not on every post - I know that you did chamomile tea and honey and the 4 parts water or tea in this case to 1 part honey - have you tried spice and or EVOO boosters?

I think that you could knock out the last of that burgundy.

kimki
May 24th, 2008, 03:56 PM
kimki

Those are really great results!

Thank you for posting the pictures.

Yes, your hair is definitely both lighter and less burgundy.

While I do keep post records - they are not on every post - I know that you did chamomile tea and honey and the 4 parts water or tea in this case to 1 part honey - have you tried spice and or EVOO boosters?

I think that you could knock out the last of that burgundy.

Thank you very much! Yep thats right Chamomile tea and honey. 4:1. I tried cinnamon but found it very irritating. So today I have bought some cardamon which I'm going to do a patch test later.

So would you recommend adding EVOO to that as well?

Thank you. :)

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 04:03 PM
kimki

Thank for the fast reply.

And I am very glad to hear that you are going to patch test the cardamom.

Based on DolphinPrincess's results, I recommend McCormick's ground cardamom, which is not too expensive.

Yes, I think that you can definitely use both - go slow with both though - not too much spice and start with 1 tablespoon of EVOO - it can be a challenge to wash out of the hair.

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 04:12 PM
I am making this request to everyone please.

As you update results or post results, please include your current recipe and the latest news on the condition of your hair.

I always ask about the condition of the hair when you first report - however - I am monitoring all results for this and even though there have been no negative reports on the condition of the hair following honey lightening, other than residue dryness - it is more important IMO, than lightening results.

kimki
May 24th, 2008, 04:33 PM
Thank you ktani I will give that a try soon and let you know how I get on.

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 05:59 PM
kimki

I look forward to your new results.

ktani
May 24th, 2008, 07:23 PM
Bunnyears

I did not answer all of your questions.

It is possible that the buckwheat honey you used has enough Vitamin C in it to be a problem. That may be why you did not get results from honey and water alone.

The golden colour you mentioned IMO, is a result of chamomile not honey - honey has not been reported to add a colour of its own to the hair - from my own experience with chamomile - and you made a strong tea - chamomile can.

A far as using 2 spices at once - yes, you can mix cinnamon with cardamom - however caution is advised on not using too much - both can be irritants.

Bunnyears
May 25th, 2008, 01:33 AM
Thanks so much, ktani! Great info on buckwheat and chamomile.

Now as to the condition: well, I only wash my hair once a week, but because I wanted to lighten my hair so desperately, I decided to do it everyday. Well, until I started adding olive oil (two last times) I only rinsed the honey and conditioned without shampooing. With the olive oil, I had to clarify twice - and I don't love EVOO, it's very heavy, imo. So m hair feels less silky than it did with just honey/water now that I had to clarify the oil, plus I honestly think that having wet hair everyday and letting it airdry is just stressful for the shaft.

Exodus
May 25th, 2008, 06:01 AM
I apologize that I ask something that probably is stated somewhere in the thread, but I don't have time today to search for it; should the 1:4 honey-water mix be applied to dry or washed hair?

ktani
May 25th, 2008, 06:55 AM
Exodus

No worries - I answer all questions if I can.

You can use the 4 parts water to 1 part honey or dry hair, freshly washed hair or not.

I recommend using it on freshly washed, clarified if neccessary, wet hair.

ktani
May 25th, 2008, 06:17 PM
I have a theory that not only the peroxide produced by honey, but also the peroxide produced by plants is non damaging to human cells and therefore also non damaging to hair.

This theory has been supported so far by the reports in the Honey threads, of non damage to hair from honey lightening. I wanted more support.

I found it.

Honey contains phenolic acids and flavonoids.

“Flavonoids .... known to inhibit LDL oxidation through both metal chelation and free radical scavenging mechanisms, whereas phenolic acids act as antioxidant by free radical trapping mechanism …. Palm honey is the richest one in aromatic acids and Coriander and Sider honeys are the richest in flavonoids.”
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem071v1 (http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem071v1)


So does cinnamon, and cardamom

“Antioxidant phenolics and flavonoids in common Indian foods.
High flavonoid content .... present in …. cinnamon …. Medium levels .... found in …. cardamom ....”
http://www.raysahelian.com/cardamom.html (http://www.raysahelian.com/cardamom.html)


olive oil

"Olive oil may also benefit the blood itself …. Italian in vitro study found olive oil flavonoids could inhibit aggregation of human platelets ….”
http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/articles/circulation-heart-vascular,p4.html (http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/articles/circulation-heart-vascular,p4.html)“


And coconut oil

“Phenolic compounds present in the nonsaponifiable fraction of coconut oil ....”
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2621.2006.01493.x (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2621.2006.01493.x)


“Flavonoids …. reported to exhibit a wide variety of biological effects, including antioxidant and free radical-scavenging activities.
…. preincubation with the flavonoids before H2O2 exposure significantly .... protected .... cells against H2O2-induced DNA damage.”
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all)


Flavonoid and phenolic compounds in honey and the peroxide oil and spice boosters help protect human cells from damage from hydrogen peroxide. I believe that this extends to hair.

DolphinPrincess
May 25th, 2008, 06:40 PM
Ktani, I'm sitting here with another mix, similar recipe and application, with just two exceptions.
1. I decided to try adding some cornstarch to thicken. Just a heaping spoonful.
2. I applied it to dry hair that I washed yesterday. (I don't like to wash everyday, so I figured I'd try it out)
Just wanted to let you know!

ktani
May 25th, 2008, 06:45 PM
DolphinPrincess

Offhand, I have no idea what cornstarch will do or how it will affect the recipe.

Applying the honey lightening treatment to dry hair should not be a problem IMO, as long as it is the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution.

Good luck and please update.

DolphinPrincess
May 25th, 2008, 08:16 PM
Well, the cornstarch did thicken it like I hoped, but I still had some drippies, nothing compared to what I had before though. It actually washed out easier than ever! We'll see if it did anything color-related as soon as it's dry (won't be online til tomorrow, as I have to go to bed soon) but I will report back soon!

ktani
May 25th, 2008, 08:19 PM
DolphinPrincess

Sleep well.

I look forward to your report.

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 12:21 AM
In this study, specific flavonoids were found to protect human cells from hydrogen peroxide damage.

“Protection by the Flavonoids Myricetin, Quercetin, and Rutin Against Hydrogen Peroxide-Induced DNA Damage ….
Flavonoids …. reported to exhibit a wide variety of biological effects, including antioxidant and free radical-scavenging activities.
…. preincubation with the flavonoids before H2O2 exposure significantly ….protected …. cells against H2O2-induced DNA damage.”
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all)


A number of the same flavonoids are found in

honey - contains bee pollen

“Constituents - bee pollen
Antioxidant flavonoids, including myricetin, quercetin, rutin ....”
http://www.botanical.com/products/learn/b/bee_pollen.html (http://www.botanical.com/products/learn/b/bee_pollen.html)


myricetin, quercetin in cinnamon
http://books.google.ca/books?id=xYiuldxozAQC&pg=PA296&lpg=PA296&dq=Myricetin+cinnamon&source=web&ots=kg1hvpsQqd&sig=z1rmhVAofPkPOR2QiMqPrXVb3-8&hl=en (http://books.google.ca/books?id=xYiuldxozAQC&pg=PA296&lpg=PA296&dq=Myricetin+cinnamon&source=web&ots=kg1hvpsQqd&sig=z1rmhVAofPkPOR2QiMqPrXVb3-8&hl=en)


myricetin, quercetin in cardamom See "Table 3"
"Major group of antioxidant compounds and their dietary sources"
http://www.japi.org/October2004/R-794.pdf (http://www.japi.org/October2004/R-794.pdf)


quercetin in olive oil
"Olive oil.... high in flavonoids including quercetin.”
http://www.daytondailynews.com/health/altmed/shared/health/alt_medicine/ConsSupplements/Quercetincs.html#Dietary (http://www.daytondailynews.com/health/altmed/shared/health/alt_medicine/ConsSupplements/Quercetincs.html#Dietary)


while coconut oil contains gallic acid

“…. tested the Virgin Coconut Oil …. the values for phenolic acid were 13.21 to 13.43 micrograms gallic acid per gram of oil."
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/49145.php (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/49145.php)


which also has cell protective qualities against hydrogen peroxide damage.

“In the Ames test, gallic acid esters showed protective effects against H2O2-induced cytotoxicity ….
…. structure-activity relationship indicates …. similarity of the protective effects of gallic acid esters on the H2O2-induced damages to both bacterial and mammalian cells.”
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=25033


What all of this means IMO, is that honey and plants have built-in protective mechanisms against hydrogen peroxide cell and hair damage.

morgwn
May 26th, 2008, 03:35 AM
Interesting, ktani. Some good info. Though sometimes where you find the time to hunt down all of this info I don't know. :D

kimki
May 26th, 2008, 04:54 AM
Excellent info ktani. :)



A number of the same flavonoids are found in

honey - contains bee pollen

“Constituents - bee pollen
Antioxidant flavonoids, including myricetin, quercetin, rutin ....”
http://www.botanical.com/products/learn/b/bee_pollen.html (http://www.botanical.com/products/learn/b/bee_pollen.html)


I wonder if they have found different amounts of flavonoid's in various honey types?

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 07:07 AM
morgyn

Thank you

And so do I, lol.

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 07:11 AM
kimki

Thank you

I am sure that they have IMO, however, as I have said, the reports in all 5 Honey threads, with various kinds of honey used in honey lightening treatments and with different brands of spices and oils used, have 1 thing consistently in common - no hair damage (weak, thin, split, broken, or gummy hair) reported - none, to date.

kimki
May 26th, 2008, 08:01 AM
kimki

Thank you

I am sure that they have IMO, however, as I have said, the reports in all 5 Honey threads, with various kinds of honey used in honey lightening treatments and with different brands of spices and oils used, have 1 thing consistently in common - no hair damage reported - none, to date.

I'm sure as more people try honey, more information on types of honey will be obvious.

For me personally, not only was there no damage. My hair felt better and looked more shiny.

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 08:19 AM
kimki

Thank you for the added information.

I had edited this part in bold as a clarification, before your post, "no hair damage (weak, thin, split, broken, or gummy hair) reported - none, to date." or so I thought.

Sometimes people define damage differently.

The dryness and crunchy ends one can get from honey lightening is a honey residue result - which, as I have said and reports confirm, can easily be resolved with shampooing and or a vinegar rinse, and has no lasting effect on the hair.

Your report of better feeling, shiny hair is consistent with many other reports of the same result.

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 08:33 AM
kimki

The only thing that is a "new" result with different kinds of honey is a report that different honeys leave different amounts of residue and none was reported with one type of honey.
The report
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118076&postcount=820

That may have to do with the dilution and recipe used but I believe that it is the honey and I am not really surprised.

Many reports do not mention dryness or a dry ends result from honey lightening and I always ask about the condition of the hair following a treatment.

kimki
May 26th, 2008, 09:21 AM
The different kinds of honey leaving varying amounts of residue would make sense.

Although, like you say this must be affected by dilution and recipe. I have to say, my hair felt very strange when I was trying to wash out the mix that had cinnamon. The only way I can think of to describe it is slimey. I will be trying a mix with cardamon and a little EVOO added later, hopefully that will wash out easier.

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 09:27 AM
kimki

From at least one report, cardamom does wash out easier than cinnamon.

I think that how well a honey lightening treatment washes out depends on the method used too.

Some people have used diluted shampoo, which I think is not as effective as full strengh shampoo for this purpose.

I have also suggested, that CO'ing (washing the hair with conditioner only) the treatment out, might be an option.

kimki
May 26th, 2008, 10:09 AM
I have been washing it out with a shampoo bar. With the cinnamon I found that using a CO wash it helped to get some of it out.

I will let you know how I get on with the Cardamon later.

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 11:31 AM
kimki

I look forward to your report.

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 03:16 PM
This is not specific to honey lightening but it is by the same authors on the specific flavonoids that are also found in honey, the spices and EVOO.

"Experimental evidence suggests .... most herbs and spices possess .... wide range of biological and pharmacological activities .... may protect tissues against H2O2-induced damage."
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/abstract.00002375-200702000-00014.htm;jsessionid=L6WWwPxnshRrQYgF4TVjfl2VF9kJm Vn1nmky7LLhGhfGJJ8NJFTY!-1539859368!181195628!8091!-1 (http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/abstract.00002375-200702000-00014.htm;jsessionid=L6WWwPxnshRrQYgF4TVjfl2VF9kJm Vn1nmky7LLhGhfGJJ8NJFTY!-1539859368!181195628!8091!-1)

It looks like my theory is not only not original - it is being researched vigorously from a different approach. The plants in this study do not produce hydrogen peroxide except in minimal amounts.


Various herbal teas and their hydrogen peroxide production are discussed here.

"Herbal teas .... popular because .... antioxidative activity. .... antioxidative activity comes mainly from polyphenols, Levels of H2O2 in the teas .... examined, since the production of H2O2 in beverages such as coffee and green tea, has been reported. Only a small amount of H2O2 was detected in the herbal teas ... after their preparation with hot water. .... H2O2 was gradually produced during incubation at 25 °C after extraction with hot water .... when the teas were incubated in phosphate buffer at pH 7.4."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-4M63RWS-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=11edbfbdf1ccc1cdd2f918eccbe01105

LadyPolaris
May 26th, 2008, 04:00 PM
The recent discoveries you have been making are SO interesting, scientist ktani!! So that is why it is not damaging, even though it involves peroxide - the antioxidants present in these natural ingredients combat the free radicals that are responsible for the damage. Very interesting.

On the other hand, vitamin C - even though it is an antioxidant - is not recommended, as it kills the peroxide.

Cardamom has a higher vitamin C content than cinnamon, but also a higher peroxide value, and washes out more easily.

So my next steps should be:
- replace cinnamon with cardamom
- find a dark, mixed source honey with low content of ascorbid acid

In a nutshell, is that it? My memory is failing me nowadays - too much studying. (I have to know thousands of pages of law by heart until June). :disgust:

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 04:17 PM
The recent discoveries you have been making are SO interesting, scientist ktani!! So that is why it is not damaging, even though it involves peroxide - the antioxidants present in these natural ingredients combat the free radicals that are responsible for the damage. Very interesting.

On the other hand, vitamin C - even though it is an antioxidant - is not recommended, as it kills the peroxide.

Cardamom has a higher vitamin C content than cinnamon, but also a higher peroxide value, and washes out more easily.

So my next steps should be:
- replace cinnamon with cardamom
- find a dark, mixed source honey with low content of ascorbid acid

In a nutshell, is that it? My memory is failing me nowadays - too much studying. (I have to know thousands of pages of law by heart until June). :disgust:

LadyPolaris

You are too kind. I am not a scientist.

And as I have said, iris first realized the Vitamin C connection, which I completely forgot about and had not absorbed at the time. I read about it again in a link I found and this time I understood the implications.

Cardamom does have a very small Vitamin C content but its peroide value is higher than that of cinnamon.

Cinnamon has no Vitamin C content.

Here is the list of Vitamin C contents for ingredients that are now, have been included in honey lightening recipes previously or are just interesting, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

It is not just that the phenolic acids and flavonoids combat the free radicals - some of them chelate the free iron which produces the oxygen free radicals. It is more complicated than I am capable of understanding completely.

You should be just fine trying a dark coloured honey blend and using cardamom - which has been reported to wash out of the hair easier - after patch testing it first.

You can add a small amount of EVOO to your - I recommend chamomile - Roman (Anthemis nobilis) 1 cup of tea to 1/4 cup of honey.

LadyPolaris
May 26th, 2008, 04:46 PM
Thank you for the clarification and the reminders - and that's a very interesting list of vitamin C content for all our natural ingredients!

So cinammon doesn't have vitamin C at all, which is good. But I cannot wait to patch test whatever ground cardamom I can find, I'm not sure I like the minty tingle on my scalp which is attributed to cinnamon. (I'm afraid the tingle will get worse with time, as allergic reactions sometimes do.) I'm hoping cardamom won't act this way on my skin, so here's to a successful patch test!

I should do my 3rd treatment this week, it's not certain though, I'm having to study harder now, exam closing in... but I will follow your new recipe to a T, provided I can find ground cardamom in time.

Thank you again :) And keep up the great research! I don't mind that you're not really a scientist - you do a scientist's work around here and that's as good as being a scientist, in my book. ;)

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 04:51 PM
LadyPolaris

Good luck with the exams!

And thank you again for being so sweet, appreciative and complimentary.

It is all of you who are field testing my theories and recommendations.

You can use whatever chamomile tea you like - the Roman is my pick - chamomile tea has been reported at least once to help counter spice irritation

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 09:50 PM
Going back to the original research on honey

“…. harmful effects of hydrogen peroxide …. reduced because honey sequesters and inactivates the free iron which catalyses the formation of oxygen free radicals produced by hydrogen peroxide .... and its antioxidant components help to mop up oxygen free radicals ....”
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html (http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html)



The flavonoids and a phenolic compound shown to protect cells from hydrogen peroxide damage, and present in honey, the spices and the oils used in honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=123822&postcount=974


“Protection by the Flavonoids Myricetin, Quercetin, and Rutin Against Hydrogen Peroxide-Induced DNA Damage …. "
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a785829746~db=all

“In the Ames test, gallic acid esters showed protective effects against H2O2-induced cytotoxicity …."
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/ind...s&therow=25033



are also iron chelators and antioxidants.

“The ability of the phenolic compounds which chelate iron …. gallic acid ….”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-4GNKS38-4&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=918df530417bc8178ff753f331eb3464

“The protective ability of quercetin and rutin …. related to their iron-chelating activity”
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WB5-45KKRTT-7S&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=c7a99fb6523d012d25a250497efbe110

“These results suggested that the protective effects of myricetin …. attributed to the myricetin-suppressed iron toxicity.”
http://www.neuroreport.com/pt/re/neuroreport/abstract.00001756-200707160-00019.htm;jsessionid=L7xdxHnjkLNnbc0SJBP7KKyGTZ4T1 QywNYnLylrbv8MqZnnhMGZF!-1539859368!181195628!8091!-1

DolphinPrincess
May 26th, 2008, 10:57 PM
Funny thing happened today, when I went to get my camera to try to take pics, it wasn't there. I would assume that my SO was using it and didn't put it back (a very common thing) or my 3yo monster, I mean little boy, hid it for me. :doh:

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 11:01 PM
DolphinPrincess

Please do not keep me in suspence.

I will accept a verbal description in lieu of a picture until you can find the camera.

Not everyone includes pictures, although they are always welcome.

How did your hair turn out after this cornstarch experiment?

DolphinPrincess
May 26th, 2008, 11:24 PM
Well, I don't think I really see a difference color-wise, but my hair is ultra-soft, albeit slightly greasy. I'm not sure if the lightening was inhibited by the cornstarch though, or the fact that I didn't shampoo prior to application. Next time I'll try using cornstarch, but on freshly washed hair.

ktani
May 26th, 2008, 11:28 PM
DolphinPrincess

Cornstarch absorbs water - it may have affected the dilution.

But cassia in a recipe was no problem.

I am not keen on the idea of bulking up the recipes in general.

What you lose by having to put up with more drips is traded off by the possiblity of getting more lightening in less time, IMO.

However, I do understand the reasons for wanting to do it.

ktani
May 27th, 2008, 07:21 AM
DolphinPrincess

Cornstarch will not harm the hydrogen peroxide.

Apparently constarch and peroxide mixed together is a homemade stain remover.
http://www.thriftyfun.com/tf664611.tip.html

Wait until you can take a picture - perhaps you did get more lightening.

morgwn
May 27th, 2008, 08:10 AM
Apparently constarch and peroxide mixed together is a homemade stain remover.
http://www.thriftyfun.com/tf664611.tip.html

Thanks for that, ktani. I learn something new on these boards every day and that's a new bit of knowledge that will definitely come in handy. :)

ktani
May 27th, 2008, 08:13 AM
morgwn

You are welcome.

I do not know if it actually works, though.

kimki
May 27th, 2008, 12:16 PM
So I did my first mix with cardamon.

The recipie was chamomile tea, honey (4:1) 1 tablespoon of EVOO and a tablespoon of cardamon.

I found it ok to apply, this time I used a applicator brush. I left it on for an hour and then washed it out.

Ktani you are so right about the EVOO being more difficult to wash out, I'm finding my hair is greasy today.

I haven't really noticed any lightening but it's difficult with the greasy's. So I plan to do another treatment tonight and maybe one towards the end of the week and take a picture at the weekend.

ktani
May 27th, 2008, 12:46 PM
So I did my first mix with cardamon.

The recipie was chamomile tea, honey (4:1) 1 tablespoon of EVOO and a tablespoon of cardamon.

I found it ok to apply, this time I used a applicator brush. I left it on for an hour and then washed it out.

Ktani you are so right about the EVOO being more difficult to wash out, I'm finding my hair is greasy today.

I haven't really noticed any lightening but it's difficult with the greasy's. So I plan to do another treatment tonight and maybe one towards the end of the week and take a picture at the weekend.

kimki

Thank you for the update.

I think that you might be able to move up to 2 T cardamom - and down to .5 T EVOO or less - provided your are ok in terms of no irritation with the cardamom.

I look forward to reading about how it goes.

kimki
May 27th, 2008, 01:08 PM
Ok I'm happy to do that, but I usually only use 3 dessert spoonfulls (about 35g) honey and 4 times as much water. Mixing that much cardamon in makes it really thick.

Do you think I'm using enough honey? My hair is only shoulder length.

ktani
May 27th, 2008, 01:39 PM
kimki

The minimum amount of honey to use, based the research link I based the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution on, says

1/8 cup or 10 grams.

kimki
May 27th, 2008, 04:57 PM
kimki

The minimum amount of honey to use, based the research link I based the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution on, says

1/8 cup or 10 grams.

Well I'm using enough honey, I will give it a go mixing in 2 tablespoons then.