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mellie
May 6th, 2008, 12:21 PM
I recently tried my Mellie's Mix again because my hair was getting really dark from multiple full-length hennas. So, after I did just a roots-only Dark Brown Rainbow henna to cover my gray roots, I immediately followed that up with my Mellie's Mix for approx. 1 hour (no lemon per Ktani!). Here's my before and after:

Before:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=11348

After:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=11349

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 12:40 PM
mellie

Thank you for posting your new pictures.

Mellie's Mix does not have a honey booster in it. The mullein and Roman chamomile may contribute to the lightening but neither one has a peroxide value.

Yet, with its 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution, the mix can still lighten multiple layers of henna and whatever other plant colours are in Rainbow Dark Brown Henna, because IMO, you got the maximum alfalfa honey peroxide value, in the 1 hour.

Your results this time are not as startling as your previous results - you did not have as many henna layers though, on your hair previously.

That does make a difference.

I can definitely see that your hair is lighter - on the areas where you did not do a fresh henna application - your length and ends.

brok3nwings
May 6th, 2008, 02:38 PM
I´ve been in this last month or month and a half making honey treatments. I took a while to understand about the dilution but anyway it also took a while to see some real difference. I was also making the mistake of giving a apple vinegar rinse and that was giving me brassiness and so it seamed that my hair was dark and brassy (it was inicially a bit but not as much).
My natural colour is a medium blonde that can go really light in the summer.
Right now i have about 4 inches of virgin hair (growing since October 2007) and the rest of it is chemically dyed with a semi permanent colour.
My goal was to take away as much of the brassy colour (the semi-permanent was a lot golden by itself) as well as make my roots combining better with the lenght
Ktani is the one that has been helping me, we all now that.
I have to thank her and also the LHC to make me believe that my colour would get better and that the best thing was to wait instead of running to the hairdresser ;)
This is the last results...
My hair was washed from the day before and had a lemon rinse (that was a bit drying and with that i dont know if it helped the honey to get inside the hair cuticle).
This was my mix:
1 soap spoon of Honey
5 soap spoon of VO5 Conditioner
1 full desert spoon cinnamon or half soap spoon ?
1 egg yolk

Left it in my hair for two hours and then washed my hair REALLY well, three times shampoo (Aubrey Organics) and a deep conditioning. I could see instantly the difference in my colour and brassiness after it started to dry (it was night already but i could see it) and today i confirmed it. My roots were more simillar to the rest of it and my hair was a bit lighter.
Today i went to the beach so the second picture is after and i havent washed my hair yet so im sorry...messy messy hair.

Before:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj121/brok3nwings/a-7.jpg

After:

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj121/brok3nwings/me2.jpg

(i couldnt do any better picture than this last one because i had no batery)

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 03:21 PM
brokenwings

Thank you so much for posting your recipe and pictures.

Your hair is a lot lighter. That is what the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution + a honey booster like cinnamon can do - even on previously chemically dyed hair.

Your results are consistant with firebird's. Her hair was chemically lightened before she started honey lightening too - and you both used cinnamon in your latest mixes.

I had not realized that you had a golden semi-permanent colour on your hair as well as getting darker tones from the apple cider vinegar at one point.

The lemon juice rinse, used before the honey lightening treatment and rinsed out, I do not think had an effect on the honey and the hair cuticles but it would have made the conditioner go deeper into your hair to condition it, which is a good thing.

You can continue to do honey lightening as often as you wish.

I suggest that you do not continue doing the lemon rinses though. I do not think that you need them.

Your hair looks beautiful!

How is the condition of your hair now?

brok3nwings
May 6th, 2008, 03:41 PM
Ktani,
thank you so much!
Well yes i had a semi-permanent put in my hair in October, or should i call it an intensive toner? I could see a very diferent colour tone comparing to my natural colour (in my pictures). My natural colour is a golden one but not GOLD as it was with that semi...
About the cider vinegar its not about having it darker but when the hair goes brassy it seams darker to me because its not "clean" (sorry again about the bad explanation)

Ktani i think that its not about the lemon itself but the fact that dry hair is more ansious for conditioning and it absorves everything you put in your hair, am i right or is this my imagination? But i only did the lemon rinse that time to try it out ehe ;)

im missing so badly my jojoba oil! I went to Madeira and left it on Lisbon and i really can see the difference at my ends without it. I think that my hair goes dryer with the shampoo rotine (that i have to make with these treatments), i usually would use shampoo just about twice a week and i´ve been using it more and so i can feel a bit of dryness for that. But with the honey treatment i could feel i needed some oil but the conditioning was really good (for me two different things...oiling and conditioning)

firebird
May 6th, 2008, 04:28 PM
brok3nwings, your hair looks much lighter! If you feel that your hair is dry after the honey and needs some oil, you could try adding a little oil to the honey mixture next time you do a treatment. EVOO is great as it also lightens :) When I do not use EVOO in my mixture, I often have to oil the ends, but when I do add it, I don't. Maybe this would help you next time?

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 04:45 PM
Ktani,
thank you so much!
Well yes i had a semi-permanent put in my hair in October, or should i call it an intensive toner? I could see a very diferent colour tone comparing to my natural colour (in my pictures). My natural colour is a golden one but not GOLD as it was with that semi...
About the cider vinegar its not about having it darker but when the hair goes brassy it seams darker to me because its not "clean" (sorry again about the bad explanation)

Ktani i think that its not about the lemon itself but the fact that dry hair is more ansious for conditioning and it absorves everything you put in your hair, am i right or is this my imagination? But i only did the lemon rinse that time to try it out ehe ;)

im missing so badly my jojoba oil! I went to Madeira and left it on Lisbon and i really can see the difference at my ends without it. I think that my hair goes dryer with the shampoo rotine (that i have to make with these treatments), i usually would use shampoo just about twice a week and i´ve been using it more and so i can feel a bit of dryness for that. But with the honey treatment i could feel i needed some oil but the conditioning was really good (for me two different things...oiling and conditioning)

You are most welcome.

I am glad the the condition of your hair is good following the honey lightening.

You can try to do just a weak white vinegar rinse following the treatment - you do not have to do both a shampoo and a vinegar rinse afterward.

As to the lemon rinse result - the dryness can make the hair more porous - it depends on the hair.

If you want - you could do a separate lemon juice treatment -1 tablespoon of lemon juice to 3 tablespoons of conditioner - leave that on you hair for a while and just rinse it out. Do not add honey to that for lightening.

Honey and lemon juice do not play well together for lightening hair color.

I understand what you mean about oiling your ends.

I hope that you can get some jojoba oil soon.

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 04:53 PM
firebird

I did not see your post.

You are right - it is an excellent idea to add EVOO to brok3nwings's honey lightening recipe.

Doing that not only adds an extra booster, with cinnamon already in the mix but extra conditioning to the recipe as well.

brok3nwings
May 6th, 2008, 05:01 PM
ktani but isnt it true that in the beginning of this thread it wasnt a good thing to use conditioners that contained too much oils? If that continues to be true why dont EVO interfer negatively to the lightening?

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 05:10 PM
brok3nwings

That was and is true - it very much depends though on what oils.

Some conditioners have oil derivatives, extra silicone oils that are heavy and thickeners - including hydrogenated oils - oils that are in more of a solid form.

I know that extra oils along with extra waxy ingredients and film formers can interfere with honey lightening but it is difficult to pinpoint which oils and forms of oil specifically that can do that.

Recently, castor oil, often found in hair conditioners, has been reported elsewhere and suspected here, to darken hair colour.

In order for it to do that in a conditioner, there would have to be a lot of it present.

I think that it is much better to use a light conditioner and be in control of the amount of oil and the kind of oil that you want to add to the recipe. The less processed the oil the better, IMO.

EVOO and coconut oil are recommended because of their peroxide values - EVOO having the highest peroxide value among vegetable oils.

Both oils have the added bonus of being excellent conditioning oils and have been reported to work very well in honey lightening recipes with no problems.

EVOO has been recommended from the beginning of this thread.

Coconut oil is now recommended to replace coconut cream - it works just as well and is easier to find.

In both cases, I recommend not using too much oil.

It can be difficult to wash oil out of the hair, when you do that.

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 05:35 PM
brok3nwings

I just clicked on to your signature picture in your profile.

I can very clearly see how much your hair has lightened since you started honey lightening.

I really liked your signature picture hair colour - I like the colour of your hair now even better.

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 08:29 PM
There have now been 4 recent reports of very successful honey lightening results, all with only one thing in common - the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution.

According to the 4 reports, no hair was harmed by the honey lightening recipes.

2 of the recipes worked in 1 hour. 2 of the recipes were left on the hair for 2 hours, which IMO, was an extra hour that was not necessary.

bizarrogirl's recipe used cinnamon as a booster and it lightened henndigoed hair and henna layers, with 1/3 less cinnamon, than she had used in her fist honey cinnamon recipe, in 1 hour.

firebird's recipe used cinnamon and EVOO as boosters and it lightened previously chemically dyed hair, as well as her virgin hair root colour, both of which had been darkened with added red tones by a cassia obovata mix, in 2 hours.

mellie used Mellie's Mix, which uses no booster and it lightened layers of henna with added plant colour, on her length and ends (it was not applied to her freshly hennaed roots), in 1 hour.

brok3nwings's recipe used cinnamon as a booster and it lightened previously chemically dyed hair that had turned brassy and her virgin hair root colour, that had gone brassy as well, having brassy tones added by acv, in 2 hours.

ktani
May 7th, 2008, 07:46 AM
I have updated the the first post in this thread to reflect the new information on Vitamin C, the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution, cinnamon as a booster and coconut oil as a substitution for coconut cream - in the link to TBB.

ktani
May 7th, 2008, 11:06 AM
The 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution

From my update.

"While researching, I found a website that led me to a better understanding of how to get honey to produce more peroxide, faster, in a honey lightening recipe - the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution.

The dilution allows honey to produce its maximum amount of peroxide in only one hour.

This means that you use 4 times the amount of liquid to the amount of honey that you use in the recipe - conditioner counts as a liquid if it is runny in consistency and light as in the Preferred List of conditioners - oil does not.

You can add water to increase the dilution or just use more conditioner.

With this dilution - the honey lightening recipe only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour."

You can also use a herbal tea blend as in Mellie's Mix, or a single herb tea as the liquid.

ktani
May 7th, 2008, 11:23 AM
The Vitamin C content of selected ingredients

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup

Black Pepper, 1.3 mg in 1 tbsp or 6 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c203E.html

Cardamom, ground, 1.2 mg - in 1 tbsp or 6 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c202q.html

Chamomile tea, brewed, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c212q.html

Cinnamon, ground (cassia), .3 mg in 1tbsp or 8 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c202u.html

Coconut cream, canned sweetened, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oC.html

Coconut cream, raw, 6.7 mg in 1 cup or 240 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oB.html

Coconut meat, dried, creamed, 0.4 mg or in 1 ounce or 28 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oo.html

Coconut milk, canned, 2.3 mg in 1 cup or 226 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oE.html

Coconut milk, raw, 6.7 mg in 1 cup or 240 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oD.html

Coconut oil - 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c208C.html

Extra virgin olive oil, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.edenfoods.com/store/nlea.php?products_id=104340

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Nutmeg, ground, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c2039.html

Orange juice, canned, unsweetened, 85.7 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vo.html

Orange juice, chilled, includes from concentrate, 81.9 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vp.html

Orange juice, frozen concentrate, unsweetened, diluted with 3 volume water, 96.9 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vr.html

Orange juice, frozen concentrate, unsweetened, undiluted, 393 mg in 1 cup or 284 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vq.html

Orange juice, raw, 124 mg in 1 cup or 248 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vn.html

Tomato juice, canned with salt added, 44.5 mg in 1 cup or 243 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hM.html

Tomato juice, canned without salt added, 44.5 mg in 1 cup or 243 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20li.html

Tomato paste, with salt added, 28.7 mg in 1/2 cup or 131 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20lj.html

Tomato paste, without salt added, 57.4 mg in 1 cup or 262 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hN.html

Tomato sauce, canned, 17.2 mg in 1 cup or 245 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hQ.html

Tomatoes, canned, crushed, 2.6 mg in 1 ounce or 28 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20ik.html

Turmeric, ground, 1.7 mg in 1 tbsp or 7 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c203Q.html


Minerals can decompose hydrogen peroxide - in the links from Nutrition Facts, you will also find the mineral content for each item. The primary metals that can affect peroxide are iron, manganese, copper, nickel and chromium.

brok3nwings
May 7th, 2008, 12:59 PM
these ones were taken today (two days after the honey treatment)

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj121/brok3nwings/hair3.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj121/brok3nwings/100_7450-1.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj121/brok3nwings/hair.jpg

ktani
May 7th, 2008, 01:19 PM
brok3nwings

Thank you for posting the new pictures.

WOW!

That is some difference in colour.

Your hair looks fantastic.

The last picture looks a bit different in that light but I can still see a huge difference in the colour.

This link has your before picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98244&postcount=503

You go girl!

ktani
May 8th, 2008, 11:29 AM
brok3nwings's current honey lightening results, with the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution and a booster, show just how much honey lightening can do to remove brassiness from hair colour, with only 1 treatment and in only 2 hours - although I think that this treatment recipe would have yielded the same result in only 1 hour.

In previous attempts to do honey lightening, brok3nwings had not been diluting the honey well enough at one point, using the wrong kind of conditioner and recipe proportions (heavy conditioners contain less water and some contain extra waxy ingredients and film formers that can interfere with honey lightening), that can yield little to no results and then later used acv as a vinegar rinse following a treatment, which added more brassiness to her hair colour.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=80458&postcount=417

This time, in addition to the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution and the cinnamon booster, brok3nwings used a light conditioner and no acv afterward, which altogether yielded great success for her.

The light conditioner obviously had enough water in it to be the only liquid in the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution, as well as not having extra ingredients in it that interfered with the lightening and her new recipe worked extremely well, IMO.

ktani
May 8th, 2008, 01:16 PM
In the original Honey thread, kathrynrose did an experiment to see how different conditioners worked with honey lightening.

She tried Aussie Cleanse and Mend Conditioner and reported very poor results.

Using the same recipe and honey but with a light conditioner, her hair colour lightened.

Here is the ingredient list for Aussie Cleanse and Mend Conditioner, broken down, with my descriptions in bold.

"Water,
Cetyl Alcohol, - waxy ingredient
Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, - waxy ingredient
Stearyl Alcohol, - waxy ingredient
Quaternium 18, - film former
BIS Aminopropyl Dimethicone, - film former
Cetearyl Alcohol, - waxy ingredient
Polysorbate 60,
Benzyl Alcohol,
Fragrance,
Hydroxyethyl Cellulose, - film former
Glyceryl Stearate, - waxy ingredient
Oleyl Alcohol, - film former
Citric Acid, EDTA,
Psidium Guajava Fruit Extract,
Citrus Glauca Fruit Extract (Australian Desert Lime Extract),
Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice,
Methylchloroisothiazolinone,
Methylisothiazolinone"
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=162180&catid=11938

ktani
May 9th, 2008, 08:20 AM
brok3nwings used an Alberto V05 conditioner in her successful recipe, as the only liquid in the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution, along with the cinnamon.

Here is the Preferred List of conditioners. There are a number of light V05 conditioners, aside from those named here.

"Preferred Conditioner List
Note: This list is a guide. These hair conditioners have been reported to work well in the recipes.
Alberto V05 Champagne & Strawberries, Alberto V05 Honeydew Smoothie, Alberto V05 Kiwi Lime Squeeze, Alberto VO5 Sun Kissed Raspberry, Alberto V05 Vanilla Mint Tea, Citre Shine, Herbal Essences Hello Hydration, Kiss My Face, Mane 'n Tail, Tigi Oatmeal & Honey."

Zenity
May 9th, 2008, 12:30 PM
Hello to all!

I have read this thread from the beginning to end... wow!
I have copied a lot of info in a file to read it later and process all this information better.
I have a question now that has been posted before but I wonder if there is any update.

I do not live in the States now, and I wonder if any european user can report a conditioner that is easy to find here, or if there is any generic brand that can be find in both continents.

I thought I would go for the herbal essences one, but the "hello hydration" is not available in my country. Herbal essences has other lines here.
I wonder why the big industries do that. I hate that you get used to one product that is a worldwide brand and when you change location is not available there.

Well, congrats to all for your wonderful progress and thanks to Katani for all the work, compilations, research and advise she gives to us.

ktani
May 9th, 2008, 12:46 PM
Zenity

Welcome to LHC. And you are most welcome.

I am very pleased to read that you have enjoyed reading the thread.

There is a lot of information to process but the most recent information, in the last several pages is I believe, the most important.

The 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution, the right kind of conditioner if used, the spice boosters - cinnamon and possibly cardamom, no Vitamin C ingredients in the recipe, a white vinegar rinse or shampoo to deal with honey residue, and keeping the hair covered with plastic while the treatment is on the hair. And the fact that other than some reports of honey residue dryness, the treatments cause no ill effects to the hair.

While you are waiting to hear about a European equivalent to the conditioner that you are used to, you have several options.

You could try Mellie's Mix - Roman chamomile, mullein, alfalfa or other honey - you could use a dark coloured honey blend - and add a booster if you wish.

Or honey, water or a single herb herb tea like Roman chamomile, a bit of extra virgin olive oil or coconut oil and another booster like cinnamon.



Or you could check out the labels of the Herbal Essences conditioners that you have available to you and compare the ingredients to the Hello Hydration ingredient list. As long as the main ingredients are the same and in the same amounts - their positions on the ingredient list indicating their concentrations - and the conditioner is light - they should be fine to use.

Hello Hydration Conditioner ingredient list
"Water, Stearyl Alcohol, CyclopentaSiloxane, Cetyl Alcohol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Dimethicone, Vanilla Planifolia Fruit Extract, Cocos Nucifera Milk (Coconut), Fragrance, Glutamic Acid, Benzyl Alcohol, EDTA, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Citric Acid, Blue 1"
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=159823&catid=10329

Zenity
May 10th, 2008, 11:32 AM
Ktani,

Thanks for taking the time to find some good alternatives for me.

I think that a good option could be to use any of the above listed recipes with a little bit of EVOO since I am not sure about what conditioner to use. That brings another question to my mind: Has anyones used jojoba oil in any of the honey mixes? What do you think about it?

At the place I live I can get honey and EVOO directly from the farmers. I hope the local plants that the bees use to produce the honey are the "good" ones!
The problem, for me, might be adding cinnamon. Not sure if the cinnamon gives a reddish tone to the hair. My hair is quite dark and naturally goes to red as soon a the sun reflects on it. I can't say that I like it...

As soon as I try it I will report my results.

Thanks a lot!

ktani
May 10th, 2008, 11:47 AM
Ktani,

Thanks for taking the time to find some good alternatives for me.

I think that a good option could be to use any of the above listed recipes with a little bit of EVOO since I am not sure about what conditioner to use. That brings another question to my mind: Has anyones used jojoba oil in any of the honey mixes? What do you think about it?

At the place I live I can get honey and EVOO directly from the farmers. I hope the local plants that the bees use to produce the honey are the "good" ones!
The problem, for me, might be adding cinnamon. Not sure if the cinnamon gives a reddish tone to the hair. My hair is quite dark and naturally goes to red as soon a the sun reflects on it. I can't say that I like it...

As soon as I try it I will report my results.

Thanks a lot!

Zenity

There is no way to know in advance if the honey you choose to use will produce enough peroxide for the treatment to be successful unless you can test it, or unless it is the over processed UF honey, which is very pale yellow in colour, thicker than regular honey and tastes different than regular honey - which you can avoid buying.

brok3nwings was also concerned that cinnamon might add red tones to her hair - it did not and has not been reported to do so in this thread in any reports on honey cinnamon treatments.

Take another look at her pictures - she used honey and cinnamon - no red.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=99995&postcount=516

This link has her before picture - the honey recipe that she used with cinnamon reduced the brassiness she had to none, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98244&postcount=503

And firebird's latest results. The honey cinnamon recipe she used lightened the red/gold tones a previous cassia treatment had given her hair and did not add any colour of its own.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

The 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution was used in both cases - and both reported results were very successful.

I do not know what effect jojoba oil will have in the treatment. It does have a peroxide value - it should be ok to use but I do not recall anyone using it in a honey lightening treatment. It has no report track record. See "General Specifications" in this link.
http://bulknaturaloils.com/plantoil/longchain/jojobaoil.html

EVOO has the highest peroxide value among vegetable oils - I suggest using it - not too much - or coconut oil - both have been reported to work very well in honey lightening treatments as boosters.

I look forward to reading your results.

ktani
May 10th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Zenity

I think that the natural progression when most dark hair lightens is from dark brown or black to red to brown to gold to yellow.

Honey lightening might bring out the natural red in your hair.

That would not be from the cinnamon.

I suggest that you strand test first.

Zenity
May 10th, 2008, 08:28 PM
Ktani,

I was actually thinking on doing the same type of test.
Thnks! I will try and see what happens.
Wish me luck! ;-)

Serea
May 10th, 2008, 08:33 PM
Hey yall!!
I haven't been back because my computer has been down :/ so i finally got it back up today!
I wonder...
I usually mix my water with honey in a big batch maybe around 700 mL and use some and spray some later on, sometimes maybe weeks later.

Do you think it would give you less results since I have mixed the two together previously? I still add the cinnimon the day of but I want max results as quick as possible :)

ktani
May 10th, 2008, 08:56 PM
Zenity - the best of luck!

Serea - I do not recommend keeping a batch for much longer than a day or so in the fridge - when you add water, I think that it can go bad over time and I am not sure how long that the peroxide stays potent.

If you spray the solution on your hair and not cover the hair - the treatment can dry out and become ineffective.

It is much better IMO, to make a fresh batch each time - using the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution and use it right away - you only need to leave the honey cinnamon or honey lightening treatment with this dilution on the hair, covered with plastic, for 1 hour.

Serea
May 10th, 2008, 09:15 PM
Alright! Thanks ktani
if i leave it on the whole night.. is there going to be a big difference than if only an hour since it reaches its peak for like peroxide-ness (wow i spelled that horribly wrong) in an hour?

Hmm run what IMO means again?
The lingo is still very new to me :)

ktani
May 10th, 2008, 09:19 PM
Alright! Thanks ktani
if i leave it on the whole night.. is there going to be a big difference than if only an hour since it reaches its peak for like peroxide-ness (wow i spelled that horribly wrong) in an hour?

Hmm run what IMO means again?
The lingo is still very new to me :)

Serea

Sorry for the short form - IMO means in my opinion.

I see no reason to leave the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution on the hair longer than 1 hour because that is the time needed for the peroxide in the honey to reach its maximum level - I do not believe that leaving the treatment on the hair longer than the hour will yield better results.

Results reported with the 1 hour only have been excellent - better than previous attempts with the same recipe, left on the hair longer but with a different dilution.

Serea
May 10th, 2008, 09:26 PM
Ohh hmm. So it probably doesn't matter. Alright! I'll try it for an hour tonight.! Wish me luck!
My hair is still very dark brown but i've only done it max 5 times within a month. :/ I've been getting worse at keeping it up. Still taking pics though I just see no difference. I'll post them when I find a change :) Thanks for all your help ktani

ktani
May 10th, 2008, 09:30 PM
Serea

How have you been doing the treatment - your recipe proportions and method?

It sounds as if you were diluting the honey way too much to be effective - 700 ml is a lot of water depending on how much honey you used.

For every 1/4 cup of honey - you need only 1 cup of water.

ktani
May 10th, 2008, 09:57 PM
Hey y'all!
I've been off experimenting and results are looking good.
I misted 1/6 cup of honey, 3/6 water, 1/6 cinnamin in damp hair with no conditioner
but some sections are more lighter than other but it gave off more of a highlighted affect.
I left it in for about 2 hours
I'll take pictures next post if i can!

Serea

I went back and found your last recipe - above, post 459, before you started to do the 700 ml dilution.

I recommended the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution. I think that there was some confusion as to what the dilution meant to you.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=89873&postcount=460

You said that were getting some results and that you were using a shower cap to cover the hair from another one of your posts here but that the hair was sagging a bit from underneath.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=89985&postcount=461

I recommended a large bag to contain all of the hair and pinning your hair up to help.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=90040&postcount=462

Prior to that, you were leaving the honey lightening treatment on your hair for only 20 minutes at a time - 1/3 of the time needed to get good results but even then you said that you had seen some lightening.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=85429&postcount=444

I believe that the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution was not made clear by me to you back then, for example, to every tablespoon of honey - you need 4 tablespoons of water or conditioner, if it is a light one.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=85446&postcount=445

I think that from what you reported, you thought that you were making some progress with the treatments earlier but you went from too little time - 20 minutes - to too little a dilution, 1/6 honey to 3/6ths water for 2 hours - to too much of a dilution, 700 ml - good luck this time.

ktani
May 11th, 2008, 12:45 PM
Here are my three pics :) I don't know if I have had any progress, but I'm having fun with my potions :D

Before (oriental black hair -1/4 chinese- with bleached highlights done in August 2007)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3884/otrsfqc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

After the first treatment with Mellie's mix but without the squeeze of lemon.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2290/p1030392gp5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

After the second treatment with Mellie's mix again

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3729/p1030398ig8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I know the lights are different

Serea

nayver used Mellie's Mix - 1 tablespoon of Roman Chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), 1 tablespoon of mullein, 1/4 cup of honey and 1 cup of water on her naturally black hair with faded hi-lights. She could not get the alfalfa honey that the recipe calls for - another honey was used, a dark coloured honey. Mellie's Mix has no peroxide booster in it.

Mellie's Mix always had the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution.

nayver left out the squeeze of lemon, orginally in the recipe, on my recommendation, after research I had found earlier, stated that any Vitamin C in honey was oxidized by peroxide on dilution and that the peroxide amount that the honey produced was depleted in doing so.

The same research which was about testing honey for its peroxide value, stated that to measure a honey's peroxide level, the honey needed to be diluted with 4 x the amount of water, and left to sit for 1 hour before testing, to let the honey produce its maximum amount of peroxide.

I applied that research to my recommendations for honey lightening recipes and it has made a positive difference in the success of results reported.

The research also explained to me why Mellie's Mix had been so successful for mellie with alfalfa honey but not with clover honey in her first tests under the same conditions. The alfalfa honey had obviously produced enough peroxide to both oxidize the Vitamin C in the squeeze of lemon and lighten mellie's hair - the clover honey had not and the exact same recipe with clover honey failed to lighten her hair.

First nayver slept in the treatment and it lightened her highlights.
Then she repeated the treatment for 1 hour only. It lightened her black hair at the root area - to a reddish colour - just as lightening by conventional means would do.

Except that there was no reported damage to her hair.

She had dry ends after the first treatment - that was resolved with shampoo and a vinegar rinse.

ktani
May 11th, 2008, 12:51 PM
Ktani I didn't read your message before, but I did I as planned. I rinse with vinegar first, then shampoo and then conditioner and my hair is soft, not crunchy, like the first time. Hair is definitely getting lighter, but I would be doing applications for the next weeks. My mixture was watery also, but since my hair was not dripping wet I could apply it better.

nayver's report on the condition of her hair, following the 2nd treatment with Mellie's Mix, also minus the squeeze of lemon.

My message had been to wash her hair then apply the vinegar rinse - I do not think that both are necessary following a treatment but it is optional.

Other than dry ends, a honey residue result that is easily resolved, multiple honey lightening treatments have not been reported to damage the hair to date, in 5 Honey threads that I have started, from about 1.5 years ago to now.

ktani
May 11th, 2008, 05:04 PM
For hair that has been lightened by the honey recipes, if the roots are darker, the recipe can be done on the root area only - to help blend the hair colour better. This can be done with any recipe that has been successful.

firebird did this and it worked. This was before the 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution information, and on only needing only 1 hour for a treatment using it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

lynnala
May 11th, 2008, 10:15 PM
Hi Ktani, I have a bee-related question for you, I thought since you are the honey geek you might know the answer. Does beeswax have a shelf life? I just found a box of pure beeswax bars that I bought about 12 years ago for art projects. The beeswax smell is kind of faint. I just used some of this to make lotion bars, and they are fine, but I'm wondering, can pure beeswax go rancid, or loose any of it's beneficial properties?

ktani
May 11th, 2008, 10:48 PM
lynnala

How about a shelf life like honey - 3400 years - stored under the right conditions of course, lol.

There is a paragraph on uses and functions too.
http://www.mainebee.com/articles/hive_products.php

More on beeswax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeswax

I have seen various times mentioned on the net from 24 months to 5 years.

I think that it would depend on what you wish to use it for - cosmetics - I would buy new beeswax - artwork - use up what you have.

lynnala
May 11th, 2008, 10:56 PM
What? Only 3400 years? Geez. Nothing lasts these days, does it?;)

ktani
May 11th, 2008, 11:12 PM
lynalla

My apologies - how about 4000 years?
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1475-4754.1995.tb00733.x?journalCode=arch

This website claims that the shelf life is just about indefinite - for cosmetics - I would still prefer newer stock.
http://www.beeswax.co.nz/information.htm

lynnala
May 12th, 2008, 12:37 AM
lynalla

My apologies - how about 4000 years?
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1475-4754.1995.tb00733.x?journalCode=arch

This website claims that the shelf life is just about indefinite - for cosmetics - I would still prefer newer stock.
http://www.beeswax.co.nz/information.htmWow, that's pretty amazing!

ktani
May 12th, 2008, 08:44 AM
I am constantly amazed by what honey and bee products can do.

I have not researched the other products though in any detail.

ktani
May 12th, 2008, 09:19 AM
It seems to me that for henndigo users who want to lighten their hair colour with honey and cinnamon, this recipe
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2454335633/in/set-72157594199905645/

would have the cinnamon mixed in well enough to help prevent the irritation that can happen from a cinnamon spill on skin.

The conditioner, honey and water content of the recipe should IMO, help buffer the cinnamon irritation factor on the scalp as well.

An extra booster like EVOO can be added - not too much though.

This recipe has the 4 to 1, liquid to honey dilution. Adding EVOO will not affect the dilution - oil is not a liquid for this purpose only in the sense that it does not contain water.

The 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution is about diluting honey with 4 x the amount of water - most light conditioners are about 90% water - that is why they can count as part of the dilution, while oil does not.

ktani
May 12th, 2008, 10:43 AM
It is not that honey lightening did not work before the 4 to 1 water to honey dilution - a better way to describe it than just saying liquid, IMO.

Honey lightening has worked based on reports in the Honey threads, including this one.

The results though were more unpredictable.

The 4 to 1 information along with the Vitamin C information, the conditioner information and the fact that some honeys naturally produce less peroxide I think, makes honey lightening less of a gamble in producing the desired results.

The results reported so far have been less gradual and better than expected when this dilution is used, in combination with the other factors being taken into account.

boukje
May 13th, 2008, 04:12 AM
hello everyone,

I wrote about my SMT (without heating up the honey) and it worked quite well. Really lightened my hair, but now about 2 weeks (I think)? later my hair is the same colour again. It looked like the henna has re-oxidized or so I am not sure why.

I wanted to do more treatments but after the SMT my hair started shedding massive amounts (not sure if it is from the SMT or the sudden change of the weather). today is the first day I didn't loose handsfull of hair. So I think I will not do another SMT soon (just to be sure).

Maybe I will try the honey and water, but I am not really confident this will work. Has anyone had a good result with this?

Thank you so much already.

Lots of greetings from Helen.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 06:23 AM
boukje

Honey lightening does not usually redarken.

That can happen with lemon juice and possibly other recipes with Vitamin C, depending on the content.

Shedding has not been reported followig honey lightening.

If you want to try again, I suggest that you try the 4 to 1 water to honey, no aloe vera gel and perhaps a preferred conditioner from the list - conditioner can be used as part of the water in the dilution.

"Preferred Conditioner List
Note: This list is a guide. These hair conditioners have been reported to work well in the recipes.
Alberto V05 Champagne & Strawberries, Alberto V05 Honeydew Smoothie, Alberto V05 Kiwi Lime Squeeze, Alberto VO5 Sun Kissed Raspberry, Alberto V05 Vanilla Mint Tea, Citre Shine, Herbal Essences Hello Hydration, Kiss My Face, Mane 'n Tail, Tigi Oatmeal & Honey."

For hennaed hair, peroxide boosters are recommended but Mellie's Mix has been reported to work well without them.

Here are 2 possible recipes for you to try, with the 4 to 1 dilution. The dilution ratio is important to get the maximum peroxide value from the honey.
With either recipe, you should only need to leave the treatment on your hair, covered in plastic, for 1 hour.

bizarrogirl's recipe 1/4 cup honey, 4 Tablespoons cinnamon, 1/2 cup water, 1/2 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner
Her results with details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

and Mellie's Mix
1 Tablespoon Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), 1 Tablespoon mullein, 1/4 cup alfalfa honey, 1 cup water.
Her Results on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

and on multiple applications of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98004&postcount=501

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 06:51 AM
You're Welcome ktani :)

My hair is not much better after the SMT (aka honey treatment), I mean by this no real improvement and also not a bad result.

My hair is very shiny and soft, looks moisturized, but I must add that this was also the case before the SMT, since I always use a shampoo bar now for my hair.

I did an SMT without heating up a few weeks ago and found out that is was a massive difference, and got rid of so much henna that I decided to do it again.

I didn't really carefully measured the amount of honey I put in the SMT. I did about 4 tablespoons I think and a big squirt of aloe vera gell (a bit more than normal) and fewer conditioner, so the SMT get a bit more runny.

I left it on for a while because I put it in after dinner and washed it before going to bed, it wasn't a real hassle. I don't want to put too much honey in it as I have to hennaed then bleached and hennaed again streaks the front part of my hair and honey dries them out quite a bit.

My overal hair health is fine so the honey makes it nice and shiney but not dry and/or limp. Just nice. But I must add SMT makes my hair greasy much faster. I will do it again next week (weekend) and I will try to make some pictures of it.

greetings from Helen.

boukje

I put parts of your post in bold.

I thought that you had done more than one SMT but I reread your post and I see now that there was only one.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 07:48 AM
boukje

The one thing I noticed and commented on earlier at the time, was that in your SMT, you used more aloe gel than conditioner in the mix.

The peroxide in honey will oxidize Vitamin C in a honey lightening recipe and is depleted in doing so.

Aloe vera gel, as it turns out, contains Vitamin C, a huge surprise to me, I had never checked it for that before now - about 350 mg per 8 oz or 236 g.
Scroll down to almost the bottom of the page here.
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

That is a higher Vitamin C content than raw lemon juice.

Lemon juice, raw - 112 mg or 187% Vitamin C - in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

With Vitamin C, hair redarkens after it has been lightened, though not completely back to its former colour usually, from reports on lemon juice lightening.

I think what happened was this.

The honey was not too well diluted in your SMT.

The peroxide it did produce had to contend with the Vitamin C in the aloe vera gel, which would have lowered the amount, in this case significantly, IMO.

The generous amount of aloe vera gel had enough Vitamin C to lighten your hair to some degree, but like after reports on lemon juice lightening, your hair later redarkened.

KajiKodomo
May 13th, 2008, 08:18 AM
Hi all! I'm very interested in lightening my (black) dyed hair to a color closer to my natural medium brown. I tried a honey, tomato sauce, and EVOO recipe I found somewhere (was it on this thread? I can't remember), and got a slight lightening and am now interested in bizarrogirl's recipe of honey, cinnamon, water, and condish.

My question is that I own a conditioner that I was wondering if it would work, if one of the talented folks here could look at the ingredients and tell me if there's anything that would keep it from working? I'm not so great with looking at ingredients and knowing what they are, so it would be greatly appreciated. If my condish won't work, I can always go get one of the VO5 conditioners listed in the preferred list.

Thanks!

Garnier Fructis Fortifying Sleek & Shine Conditioner

Water (Aqua), Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Amodimethicone, Pyrus Malus (Apple) Fruit Extract, Fragrance (Parfum), Cetyl Esters, Lauryl PEG/PPG-18/18 Methicone, Methylparaben, Persea Gratissima (Avocado Oil), Niacinamide, Pyridoxine HCl, Trideceth 12, Citric Acid, Prunus Armeniaca (Apricot Kernel Oil), Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar Cane Extract), Chlorhexidine Dihydrochloride, Cetrimonium Chloride, Linalool, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Citrus Limonum (Lemon Peel Extract), Camellia Sinensis (Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract)

I see some cones in there (amodimethicone, methicone?), so I'm not thinking it's going to work. :shrug:

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 08:32 AM
KajiKodomo

Actually, your conditioner does not look too bad but I would recommend going with one of the V05 conditioners in your case.

Black hair can be tricky, although Mellie's Mix, which has no conditioner or peroxide boosters in it lightened nayver's naturally black hair, on the 2nd try in only 1 hour.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534

KajiKodomo
May 13th, 2008, 08:38 AM
Thanks for the quick reply ktani! I'll definitely pick up one of the V05 conditioners tonight. I mean, it's only a couple bucks, haha!

Yeah, I know that black hair is tricky. I also know that I'd much rather be doing this method of lightening than using color removers, as I had big issues with them before. In any case, I feel rather stupid as the reason I buzzcut my hair 2 years ago was because I was trying to get the black dye out. Then I redyed it black later, saying I would keep dyeing it black, then recently decided that I want my natural color back. :o

Even if I don't get much lightening, it's not a big deal for me as I'm fine growing it out, just want to try to fade the black quicker than it will do on it's own.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 08:43 AM
KajiKodomo

I think that I edited in a link in my reply while you were replying.

Have another look at my post - you have 2 options.

I am glad to hear that you had some sucess with the honey tomato lightening recipe but 2 things have changed since then.

Recipe ingredients with Vitamin C contents are no longer being recommended for the recipes and the 4 to1 water to honey dilution has significantly changed the rate of lightening each treatment can produce, according to recent reports, in just 1 hour now.

KajiKodomo
May 13th, 2008, 09:18 AM
KajiKodomo

I think that I edited in a link in my reply while you were replying.

Have another look at my post - you have 2 options.

I am glad to hear that you had some sucess with the honey tomato lightening recipe but 2 things have changed since then.

Recipe ingredients with Vitamin C contents are no longer being recommended for the recipes and the 4 to1 water to honey dilution has significantly changed the rate of lightening each treatment can produce, according to recent reports, in just 1 hour now.

I've actually seen her results, as I've read the entire thread now. It looks great, but I won't be expecting results like that for myself, at least not right away. I am deciding against the other mix as I have the ingredients for the other at home. I decided to use the V05 condish as I want to make sure I have the best results. Maybe I'll give the other mix a go sometime in the future.

I do realize (now) that vitamin C doesn't work well with honey, as I just read the entire thread this morning. I suppose I didn't read it in it's entirety before I tried the tomato sauce recipe. I guess I'll be an example for those who want to try something and don't read over the entire thread first, haha! :D

I'm very excited about this recipe as it will smell much much better than the tomato sauce recipe, which stank awfully bad. :D

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 09:29 AM
I have updated the Vitamin C content ingredient reference list here, to include aloe vera gel.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 09:37 AM
I've actually seen her results, as I've read the entire thread now. It looks great, but I won't be expecting results like that for myself, at least not right away. I am deciding against the other mix as I have the ingredients for the other at home. I decided to use the V05 condish as I want to make sure I have the best results. Maybe I'll give the other mix a go sometime in the future.

I do realize (now) that vitamin C doesn't work well with honey, as I just read the entire thread this morning. I suppose I didn't read it in it's entirety before I tried the tomato sauce recipe. I guess I'll be an example for those who want to try something and don't read over the entire thread first, haha! :D

I'm very excited about this recipe as it will smell much much better than the tomato sauce recipe, which stank awfully bad. :D

KajiKodomo

No worries - things have been happening fast and furious with this thread recently.

The 4 to 1 dilution and the Vitamin C information came from the same link that I found while researching.

I applied the information to my recommendations for honey lightening recipes because it made sense and explained to me why previous reported results were more gradual and less predictable.

I had no idea how successful that information would turn out to be until reports started coming in - and all I can say is that it has turned honey lightening on its head, so to speak.

The reported results with both things considered are more than I could have predicted and are better than I thought possible in terms of the amount of time a treatment can take now, to get desired results - just 1 hour.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 10:05 AM
The link that resulted in - my changing my honey recipe recommendations, the course of my research - ingredients with a Vitamin C content - and the reported results of those who have followed my new recommendations, so far.

The information in the link comes from "the Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam."

You will have to navigate through multiple typos - a problem with translating from Dutch to English.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

KajiKodomo
May 13th, 2008, 10:24 AM
It's just so interesting to me that there are so many products that can work for such dramatically alternative uses. I would have never thought to put honey in my hair, I never would have guessed that it had a peroxide content. I love this community! :D

I'm glad that you've done the research to find this information and have given it to those of us here who wish to lighten our hair without using bleach or any other harmful method. I know it means a lot to me, and I'm sure it does to the others as well. Thank you for doing that, and thank everyone else who has come up with ideas and methods in this thread as well!

I'm just so excited now to try it out! :D

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 10:34 AM
KajiKodomo

You are most welcome.

Other than honey residue dryness - no hair has been reported to be harmed by honey lightening, to date.

I have found the research to be exciting, surprising and challenging because it needs to be interpreted and analyzed.

Th research though would mean nothing, without those willing to try the various methods and recipes and more than that - create recipes of their own and post them - often with pictures of results.

This thread and the previous Honey threads would not exist, without the LHC members who reported that honey had lightened their hair to begin with - over a year and a half ago and longer, in other threads.

KajiKodomo
May 13th, 2008, 10:37 AM
I'll definitely be back to this thread to report my results with my experiment (that I'll be doing this afternoon). :D

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 10:41 AM
KajiKodomo

Good luck!

I look forward to reading your report and seeing pictures, if possible.

KajiKodomo
May 13th, 2008, 10:50 AM
Yes I will have pictures, even if I personally don't see a difference, as pictures are the best way to tell. :D

I'm a camera w-h-o-r-e, so no problem with pictures. Haha! :D

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 11:14 AM
My research shock of the day - make that the year, lol.

Aloe vera gel, - 350 mg Vitamin C per 8 oz or 236 g
Scroll down to almost the bottom of the page here.
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Aloe vera gel contains more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice - a lot more - over 3 x the amount .

Lemon juice, raw - 112 mg or 187% Vitamin C - in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled - 60.5 mg or 101% Vitamin C - in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength - 76.9 mg or 128% Vitamin C - in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

The Vitamin C content of other possible honey lightening recipe ingredients can be checked out here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

naturechild
May 13th, 2008, 02:19 PM
So am I up to speed now

No vit. C (aka lemon and such)

a 4-1 ratio 4 parts honey to 1 part water? add cond. I have used kiwi lime.

do not heat, cover with plastic wrap and relax.

leave on 1 hour?

I have done this in the past with success on my blonde hair but now it is dark (im an idiot and darkened it) I wanted to check in again because you are finding new things all the time.

I have med to dark brown hair that used ot be blonde, I have some henna gloss on it, I dont mind keeping the red tones eather way is ok just looking to get some lightening.

Is this the best way or am I missing something

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 02:27 PM
So am I up to speed now

No vit. C (aka lemon and such)

a 4-1 ratio 4 parts honey to 1 part water? add cond. I have used kiwi lime.

do not heat, cover with plastic wrap and relax.

leave on 1 hour?

I have done this in the past with success on my blonde hair but now it is dark (im an idiot and darkened it) I wanted to check in again because you are finding new things all the time.

I have med to dark brown hair that used ot be blonde, I have some henna gloss on it, I dont mind keeping the red tones eather way is ok just looking to get some lightening.

Is this the best way or am I missing something

naturechild

For some reason the 4 to 1 keeps confusing people - or it is how I explain it.

Very simply it is this - For whatever amount of honey you use - add 4 x the amount of water or conditioner if it is a light one or a combination of both to the recipe. You can also use herbal tea.

So

4 parts water or herbal tea or conditioner or conditioner + water, but not oil - to 1 part honey. You can use oil as a booster but it does not count in the dilution. The recommended oil boosters are EVOO and coconut, possibly jojoba. Spice boosters - cinnamon, possibly cardamom.

It is nice to see you back in the thread.

I remember honey lightening being successful for you but offhand I do not remember the details.

With the new dilution, you should be able to have the treatment on your hair for only 1 hour, to see even better results than before.

Everything else you said is right on the mark.

naturechild
May 13th, 2008, 02:44 PM
Thanks so much it is nie to be remembered, with all of the girls here I am suprised you remembered me.

Thank you for clearing up the 4-1. I would have been going through the honey pretty fast.

should I still try sitting in the sun for faster lightening?

I have to go home so I will chat again tomarrow.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 02:50 PM
naturechild

Of course I remember you - I reread the threads but I have a fairly good long term memory - far from perfect though.

Short term memory? - I will not discuss that, lol.

No sunlight - heat and UV can negatively affect the honey as well as be bad for you. I do not recall that you did that before - see what I mean - far from perfect.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 03:27 PM
Having reread my posts on the 4 to 1 - it is how I have stated it that has been confusing - 4 to 1 liquid to honey or water to honey.

So, from now on, it is 4 parts water to 1 part honey - with explanations of the various liquid options after that.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 05:43 PM
This was a really fast search but - surprise to me anyway - aloe vera gel is promoted to lighten pigmentation on the skin.

".... decrease the intensity of pigmentation .... lightens the dark spots .... the skin."
http://www.beautyfeast.com/aloevera/Aloe-Vera-Health-Benefits.htm (http://www.beautyfeast.com/aloevera/Aloe-Vera-Health-Benefits.htm)

".... reduces the intensity of pigmentation and lightens dark spots .... face"
http://www.indianchild.com/health/benefits-of-aloe-vera.htm (http://www.indianchild.com/health/benefits-of-aloe-vera.htm)

".... reduces pigmentation intensity .... lightens dark spots"
http://ezinearticles.com/?Say-Hello-to-Aloe-Vera-Juice-Gel-for-Healthy-Skin&id=415661 (http://ezinearticles.com/?Say-Hello-to-Aloe-Vera-Juice-Gel-for-Healthy-Skin&id=415661)

wintersun99
May 13th, 2008, 05:52 PM
I have deleted these mixes as the picture links were broken and re-posted to post number 1602

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 06:11 PM
wintersun99

Thank you for your recipes and pictures and such precise details - and the lighting in the pictures.

Well I can definitely see lightening with the 4 parts water conditioner combo to 1 part honey recipes.

Question - is this the conditioner that you used?

"Water , Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine Lactate , Distearyldimonium Chloride , Stearyl Alcohol , Emulsifying Wax NF , Cetyl Alcohol , Coconut Oil , Glycerin , Sodium Chloride , Vegetable Oil , Fragrance , Hydrolyzed Protein , Lanolin , Phenoxyethanol , Methylparaben , Propylparaben , FD&C Yellow No. 5"
http://www.walgreens.com/beauty/product.jsp?catid=304646&navaction=jump&navcount=0&id=prod8946#ingredient

If if is it is a bit on the heavy side.

But you are definitely seeing results and good results.

wintersun99
May 13th, 2008, 06:14 PM
yes, that is the conditioner, BUT I wouldn't recommend it. I have always used VO5 Kiwi Lime (I just ran out) and I like that conditioner MUCH better. It is lighter, (contains more water) I believe

mellie
May 13th, 2008, 06:45 PM
I tried another honey treatment this weekend. Per ktani's recommendations, I left out the lemon and sun in my Mellie's Mix, and left it on for an hour under plastic & a towel. Here are my results:

Before:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=12148

Mellie's Mix 1st treatment:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=11349

Mellie's Mix 2nd treatment (and brushed out)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=12149http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=12200

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 07:25 PM
wintersun99

That conditioner is on the Preferred List but they may have changed the formula between when the list was first done and now.

The reason I asked is that I do think that you will get even better results with a lighter one.

You are though getting results, you were not before and it does look promising.

I believe that you will see the indigo lightening soon with the V05.

What also may make a difference to the number of treatments required - the number of layers of henna and indigo on your hair.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 07:28 PM
mellie

Those are great results!

Did you use Mellie's Mix with or without the squeeze of lemon?

Your hair looks amazing!

The layers of henna and plant colouring are no match for Mellie's Mix.

wintersun99
May 13th, 2008, 07:34 PM
Melli - your hair really IS looking beautiful - almost makes me want to stop my lightening attempts:p

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 07:38 PM
This thread has really been hopping today - even without my research.

wintersun99 is seeing real results with honey lightening for the first time with the 4 parts water (conditioner and water mixed) to 1 part honey with a cinnamon booster on henndigoed hair. The conditioner - a bit heavy but even with it - the results are there and look good.

Mellie's Mix has no peroxide booster in it - it still works on layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna beautifully. It always had the 4 to 1 dilution - in this case 1 cup of water with herbs added (1 tablespoon of mullein and 1 tablespoon of Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis) to 1/4 cup of honey.

DolphinPrincess
May 13th, 2008, 08:12 PM
~Sigh~ I'm so jealous, I really wish I could get results like wintersun99 and mellie! I've been doing it occasionally still, but no luck. Congrats girls!

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 08:32 PM
DolphinPrincess

Are you doing 4 parts water or a combo or tea to 1 part honey?

DolphinPrincess
May 13th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Yep, I've been using the Herbal Essences Hello Hydration. I think I'll try doing half that and half water, still in the 4:1 ratio, just to see if it works better. :shrug: I think I may just end up letting it grow out on its own and henna my roots as it goes, but I'm not giving up yet.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 08:51 PM
DopphinPrincess

I was just double checking bizarrogirl's recipe - she used 50% water 50% V05 Kiwi Lime to 1 part honey with cinnamon - I think that the combo may be a better way to go or even straight water or tea.

The honey should make it sticky enough to hold cardamom if you are not as sensitive to it as you are to cinnamon which I do not recommend for you after what happened with your skin reaction - you could also do a 75:25 - 75% water 25% conditioner to 1 part honey with a bit of EVOO added.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 09:02 PM
The 4 to 1 dilution is 4 parts water to 1 part honey - I will be adjusting liquid options based on reported results.

If conditioner is not going to be as effective in 4 parts or 2 parts conditioner to 2 parts water and 1 part honey - I will adjust my recommendations accordingly.

DolphinPrincess
May 13th, 2008, 09:14 PM
Yes, I did understand about the 4 parts water-based whatever to 1 part honey. :D I think I'll try half water, half condish and see how that works for me. I just uploaded a new picture for my signature, I just took it today. It just looks pure black. At least its healthy! :)

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 09:17 PM
DolphinPrincess

Your hair is beautiful - it has always looked healthy.

I am glad that you understand the dilution - I was not making it clear there for a while.

wintersun99
May 13th, 2008, 09:17 PM
DolphinPrincess

I'm curious, how many layers of indigo do you have on your hair? mine has many applications of henna, but only one application of henna+indigo (applied in two-step method) which is how I ended up going too dark... I'm wondering if you have more applications on your hair and thus, are having a much more difficult time dislodging the indgo (mind you, I'm not having the easiest time with only one app...) :)

DolphinPrincess
May 13th, 2008, 09:21 PM
Thanks Ktani!

Wintersun - I had two layers of henna/indigo mixed, then three layers of two-step henna/indigo. I had decided to stop because I wasn't getting it as dark as I wanted, and now I can't get it to lighten, go figure!

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 09:34 PM
I now keep an index of posts.

bizarrogirl's first recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 1/4 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner, 6 tblsp cinnamon.
Results on 2 henndigoes with multiple henna layers underneath - 8 hours
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2397912505/in/set-72157594199905645/

2nd recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 4 tblsp cinnamon, 1/2 cup water, 1/2 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner for 1 hour.
This time it lightened the baq henna layers - no burgundy colour.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2454335633/in/set-72157594199905645/


More water, less cinnamon, same amount of honey = better results in less time by my calculations.

DolphinPrincess
May 13th, 2008, 09:43 PM
Oh wow, thats great! I think I'll have to try another mix tomorrow, probably try cardamom.

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 09:49 PM
DolphinPrincess

See if you can get the same V05 conditioner - that may help too.

DolphinPrincess
May 13th, 2008, 09:54 PM
Theres a very limited selection of V05 condish in my area, but I do have some Suave Vanilla Floral. Do you think that would work?

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 09:57 PM
DolphinPrincess

Give me a minute and I will post both ingredient lists if I can.

Suave Vanilla Floral Conditioner
"Water (Aqua), Cetyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Fragrance (Parfum), Potassium Chloride, Distearyldimonium Chloride, 2 Bromo 2 Nitropropane, 3 Diol, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitmain E Acetate), Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Vanilla Planifolia Extract (Vanilla Planifolia), Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond), Orange 4 (CI 15510), Yellow 5 (CI 19140), Orange 4 (CI 15510)"
http://www.drugstore.com/qxp55329_333181_sespider/suave/naturals_vanilla_floral_conditioner.htm

V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner ETA: I replaced the 2007 ingredient list with one from 2008
"Water; Cetyl Alcohol; Stearyl Alcohol; Stearalkonium Chloride; Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract; Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Extract; Actinidia Chinensis (Kiwi) Fruit Extract; Citrus Aurantifolia (Lime) Fruit Extract; Hydrolyzed Collagen; Ergocalciferol (Vitamin D); Steareth-21; Glyceryl Stearate; Benzophenone-4; Corn Oil; Propylene Glycol; Disodium EDTA; DMDM Hydantoin; Fragrance; Blue 1; Yellow 5."
http://courtneyshair.wordpress.com/2008/02/17/vo5-kiwi-lime-clarifying-conditioner/


Yes, IMO, you are not only good to go - it may even be a better choice. Anything with stear in it is stearic acid based and is waxy - there are more waxy type ingredients in the V05 than in the Suave, but after the 3 at the front of the list, the others are in very small quantities.

DolphinPrincess
May 13th, 2008, 10:12 PM
Ooh, yay! :happydance: I have my fingers crossed!

ktani
May 13th, 2008, 11:16 PM
DolphinPrincess

If you try the ground cardamom, I suggest mixing it well into the recipe before you put the treatment on your hair - the honey and conditioner should help buffer your skin and scalp from any irritation. You can also add a small bit of EVOO to the mix - that may help prevent irritation as well as add an extra peroxide boost.

ilovelonghair
May 14th, 2008, 03:39 AM
One part of my hair has a color I don't like:
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/ilovelonghair/color2.jpg

So someone on the henna thread suggested a couple of things of which one was the honey treatment.

I would like that part of my hair to become more like this:prefer a tone like this:

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/ilovelonghair/colorsample-1.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/ilovelonghair/colorsample3-1.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh17/ilovelonghair/colorsample2.jpg

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 06:49 AM
I now keep an index of posts.

bizarrogirl's first recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 1/4 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner, 6 tblsp cinnamon.
Results on 2 henndigoes with multiple henna layers underneath - 8 hours
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2397912505/in/set-72157594199905645/

2nd recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 4 tblsp cinnamon, 1/2 c up water, 1/2 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner for 1 hour.
This time it lightened the henna layers - no burgundy colour.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2454335633/in/set-72157594199905645/


More water, less cinnamon, less conditioner, same amount of honey = better results in less time by my calculations.

ilovelonghair

I cannot predict what colour that you will get from a honey lightening treatment but have a look at the 2nd recipe here and the results and give it a try if you think that this is a recipe you want to do.

I recommend that the treatment be applied to clean wet hair and covered during the hour that it is on the hair with plastic, a bag or wrap and no external heat or sunlight applied.

mellie
May 14th, 2008, 07:06 AM
DolphinPrincess, I didn't think mine was lightening either, but I decided to take photos, and sure enough you can tell in the photos! I just couldn't tell so much to my eye.

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 07:35 AM
WARNING

Having read a number of net articles on cinnamon lightening, at least one of them suggested to cover the hair with conditioner and then apply the cinnamon so it would stick to the conditioner, as a method of doing the treatment.

Whoever thought up that method obviously did not try it or has skin of iron, IMO.

Cinnamon is an irritant.

People have reported burning, red skin and irritation from cinnamon spills on their skin in this thread and elsewhere.

Thankfully, with aloe vera gel and time - the condition was reported to be temporary - the problem healed with no lasting effects.

Cinnamon has not been reported to be a problem when it is pre-mixed into a recipe.

For a honey cinnamon treatment, please mix the cinnamon into the treatment before applying the recipe to the hair.

The conditioner and honey should help buffer the cinnamon from being as irritating to both scalp and skin.

mellie
May 14th, 2008, 07:44 AM
Ktani,

I left out the squeeze of lemon and also the sun per your recommendation, and covered with plastic and a towel for one hour.

Also, please note that I just added another photo with my hair brushed out, it shows the lightening more I think! :-)

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 07:54 AM
I tried another honey treatment this weekend. Per ktani's recommendations, I left out the lemon and sun in my Mellie's Mix, and left it on for an hour under plastic & a towel. Here are my results:

Before:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=12148

Mellie's Mix 1st treatment:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=11349

Mellie's Mix 2nd treatment (and brushed out)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=12149http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=423&pictureid=12200

mellie

IMO, an extra picture deserves an encore of the entire set.

This is Mellie's Mix before and after on layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna.

1 cup of boiled water with herbs - 1 tablespoon Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), 1 tablespoon mullein to 1/4 cup of alfalfa honey. Fantastic results!

It is the perfect 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution which mellie had used in creating this recipe, before I found out the reason why the dilution worked so well, through my researching honey.

Note: While both herbs may contribute to the lightening they do not have peroxide values and therefore are not peroxide boosters. The 4 to 1 dilution works in 1 hour because it allows the honey used, to produce its maximum peroxide value in that time.

Results may vary - different honeys produce different amounts of peroxide. This applies to all of the honey lightening treatments.

naturechild
May 14th, 2008, 08:36 AM
I did the honey treatment last night but didnt have vo5 on hand so I used burts bees greatfruit.pommigranit oops in retrospect I unintentionaly put vit, c with the mix (Greatfruit?)

I may have not gotten a lot of lightening but my hair is SO soft and shiny I dont care. I'll do it again with the VO5 Thur.

I am getting a camera soon so I will have to post after/in the process pic. when I get it.

While my hair was dark and I wanted to keep it they way I did a honey gloss twice a week:

after I CWC
In a Largeish empty honey jug, 6-1 water to honey mix shake up.
pour over my hair and let sit while I soak in the tub.
right before I get out of the tub I rinse.

It leaves my hair so soft and shiney, my daughter says my hair has never looked better.

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 08:51 AM
I did the honey treatment last night but didnt have vo5 on hand so I used burts bees greatfruit.pommigranit oops in retrospect I unintentionaly put vit, c with the mix (Greatfruit?)

I may have not gotten a lot of lightening but my hair is SO soft and shiny I dont care. I'll do it again with the VO5 Thur.

I am getting a camera soon so I will have to post after/in the process pic. when I get it.

While my hair was dark and I wanted to keep it they way I did a honey gloss twice a week:

after I CWC
In a Largeish empty honey jug, 6-1 water to honey mix shake up.
pour over my hair and let sit while I soak in the tub.
right before I get out of the tub I rinse.

It leaves my hair so soft and shiney, my daughter says my hair has never looked better.

naturechild

Thank you for reporting back with your recipe.

It may not have been just the grapefruit Vitamin C that did not help the treatment work as well as you would have liked.

If you can, please post the ingredient list of the conditioner. Burt's Bees list their ingredients - nice - which conditioner did you use?
http://www.burtsbees.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/SubCategoryDisplay?categoryId=10007&subCategoryId=-78&catalogId=10051&storeId=10001&langId=-1

Grapefruit seed extract does contain Vitamin C and so would pomegranate extract IMO, not making either of those conditioners the best choice for a honey lightening treatment, even though at least one of them contains honey. I think that a V05 or a Suave Natural conditioner would be better for lightening purposes.

It could also have been the particular honey that you used.

As to your other recipe, if you did not have that mix on your hair, covered to maintain the moisture level, for at least an hour, it would not have very much of a lightening effect.

I am happy for you that using honey on your hair has resulted in it being so soft and shiny and in good health.

naturechild
May 14th, 2008, 09:20 AM
I used the rinse for the conditioning effect only so I was glad I didnt get any lightening.

Now I am trying for the lightening effect. I am at work so I dont have the bottle with me but it was the greatfruit pomigranet(sp?) conditioner.

I used raspberry honey from a local hive. Is one kind better then another? I used to use the generic kind with good effect but like I said I had blonde hair then and it brought out the sparkle.

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 09:34 AM
I used the rinse for the conditioning effect only so I was glad I didnt get any lightening.

Now I am trying for the lightening effect. I am at work so I dont have the bottle with me but it was the greatfruit pomigranet(sp?) conditioner.

I used raspberry honey from a local hive. Is one kind better then another? I used to use the generic kind with good effect but like I said I had blonde hair then and it brought out the sparkle.

naturechild

Please when you can post the ingredients of the conditioner - I do not see a conditioner called grapefruit pomegranate on the Burt's Bees website.

As to the honey? It is impossible to predict which ones will yield more peroxide - if one does not work well, you can try another.

However, from my experience in reading every post in 5 threads, and researching honey, the surprise early on was that the cheapest pasteurized honeys were reported to work just as well as the expensive raw ones - the reason? - the plant souce determines the peroxide level.

Alfalfa honey has worked well for mellie while clover did not.

From my research, dark honey blends were reported to have higher peroxide levels in tests done to determine just that.

naturechild
May 14th, 2008, 09:36 AM
I re-read your post and feel like an idiot;


these are the ingrediants to the cond. (i found it on the site like you mentioned, duah)

Featured Ingredient
Grapefruit Oil — Uplifting, cleansing and clearing, this oil is stimulating to the lymphatic system and toning to the skin.

Read more
Ingredients: water, cetrimonium bromide, cetearyl alcohol, sucrose laurate, glycerin, honey, betaine, hydroxypropyltrimonium honey, sclerocarya birrea (marula) seed oil, glucose, citrus grandis (grapefruit) seed extract, citrus aurantium dulcis (orange) peel oil, citrus medica limonum (lemon) peel oil, citrus tangerina (tangerine) peel oil, citrus aurantifolia (lime) oil, zingiber officinale (ginger) root extract, citrus reticulata (tangerine/petitgrain) leaf oil, polysorbate 60, glucose oxidase, lactoperoxidase


It has honey in it too, but do you think the citrus is negating the lightening effect?

should I maybe use some cinn. also? mixed in before I apply of course *see I do read the thread* I will pick up my trusty kiwi VO5 today, but it is raining and I walk uck. what we do for our hair.

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 09:48 AM
naturechild

Most of us do not memorize the exact name of many of the products we use - we are usually to busy for that - so please do not feel bad about getting the names mixed up.

I think that there is probably too much Vitamin C in that conditioner in one form or another to make it the best choice for what you want to do with it.

I briefly researched citus oils - I do not think that they are necessarily the problem but given that you did not get much lightening - I would replace the conditioner or switch to using a tea like chamomile - Roman chamomile preferably but the German can do in a pinch - it is easier to find and is the one on grocery shelves.

If you want to use cinnamon as a booster, I recommend buying a Suave Natural or V05 light conditioner to help buffer the possible cinnamon irritation and mix the cinnamon well into the recipe with the honey before using the treatment.

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 09:55 AM
naturechild

Oddly enough, the V05 Kiwi Lime conditioner probably has some Vitamin C in there too but it did not make a difference in the reported honey lightening treatment results.

And while I repeated myself in my post above - I did see and I do realize that you read this thread carefully. I have missed things the first time round in many posts - as do others.

V05 Kiwi Lime Clarifying Conditioner
"Water; Cetyl Alcohol; Stearyl Alcohol; Stearalkonium Chloride; Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Extract; Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Extract; Actinidia Chinensis (Kiwi) Fruit Extract; Citrus Aurantifolia (Lime) Fruit Extract; Hydrolyzed Collagen; Ergocalciferol (Vitamin D); Steareth-21; Glyceryl Stearate; Benzophenone-4; Corn Oil; Propylene Glycol; Disodium EDTA; DMDM Hydantoin; Fragrance; Blue 1; Yellow 5."
http://courtneyshair.wordpress.com/2...g-conditioner/ (http://courtneyshair.wordpress.com/2008/02/17/vo5-kiwi-lime-clarifying-conditioner/)


I think that it might be your honey. Trader Joe's squeeze bear honey haunted me in the original Honey thread because it was reported to work so well at the point where raw honey was supposed to be "the answer" - it wasn't - the squeeze bear ruled.


The Suave Vanilla Floral or something similar, has less waxy ingredients and citrus in it.

Anything on an ingredient list following the preservatives at the end of the list has been referred to as the equivalent to "fairy dust" by Paula Begoun - a bit of a strong statement but more or less true IMO - they are not active ingredients.

Suave Vanilla Floral Conditioner
"Water (Aqua), Cetyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Fragrance (Parfum), Potassium Chloride, Distearyldimonium Chloride, 2 Bromo 2 Nitropropane, 3 Diol, Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitmain E Acetate), Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Vanilla Planifolia Extract (Vanilla Planifolia), Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond), Orange 4 (CI 15510), Yellow 5 (CI 19140), Orange 4 (CI 15510)"
http://www.drugstore.com/qxp55329_333181_sespider/suave/naturals_vanilla_floral_conditioner.htm

naturechild
May 14th, 2008, 10:53 AM
I havent eather and do hope the rain breaks so I can go to the store after work. which of the two do you think is the best?

Kiwi VO5
or
Suave vanilla floral?

I do have some chamomille from the Henna store (lizard something) but I dont know if it is
roman or German,but I do have it and dont have to purchase it. So I guess it will be good enough if I decide to go w/o the cinnamon.

I have also read on another thread that it is believed that you must have had light hair to begin with to lighten with honey. I dont see that to be true, do you?

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 10:59 AM
I havent eather and do hope the rain breaks so I can go to the store after work. which of the two do you think is the best?

Kiwi VO5
or
Suave vanilla floral?

I do have some chamomille from the Henna store (lizard something) but I dont know if it is
roman or German,but I do have it and dont have to purchase it. So I guess it will be good enough if I decide to go w/o the cinnamon.

I have also read on another thread that it is believed that you must have had light hair to begin with to lighten with honey. I dont see that to be true, do you?

The V05 has the reported results with pictures to back it up - the Suave, the way I read ingredient labels though untested as yet, may prove to be a better choice.

Look at the reported results on dark hair and henndigoed hair and hennaed hair and naturally black hair - here in this thread - there are reports with pictures including mellie's latest results, that contradict that statement in spades or beyond doubt - as well as the previous reported results on dark hair in the other Honey threads. Everyone is entitled to their opinion - I prefer to go by the evidence reported and I trust the people, pictures and reports presented.

naturechild
May 14th, 2008, 11:18 AM
Thanks I will check them all out.

I think I'll pick up the suave vanilla and risk it. I have tried the kiwi and I am always up for a change. Plus my DF likes vanilla *bonus*

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 03:06 PM
naturechild

Sorry if my post sounded defensive.

It makes no sense to me at all to say that you have to have light hair for something to lighten it.

I have read the same thing about chamomile - the point I believe is that the substance - honey in this case - has limited abilities to lighten and that any colour change would not be noticeable on darker hair colours.

Chamomile does not produce peroxide - I do not know its limits - there are probably methods to increase whatever lightening abilites it does have - I do not know what those methods are but there was a report on it in another, now archived thread.

Several people with henndigoed hair were having problems previously with honey lightening, while others did not - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution has been changing that with one exception - Mellie's Mix has always worked for mellie - it has always had that dilution - no one until now knew why it worked.

Prior to the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, honey lightening was still reported to have worked on all hair colours and types of colour - but usually much more gradually and less predictably.

Things have changed recently - the information I found on the dilution and Vitamin C has made a difference.

Sceleste
May 14th, 2008, 03:45 PM
I had excellent results with honey and wanted to share it with you. I have straight, hip length hair. I have old chemical dye in my ends, and after I stopped chemical color treatments 2 years ago I have done 3 full head henna applications within the last year. My goal was to lighten my hair from ears down because it had gone too dark for my liking because of henna.

Yesterday I did a honey mix as adviced here, 4:1 ratio. I used a light cone free conditioner, a splash of water, about 2 teaspoons of cinnamon and maybe half a teaspoon of EVOO. I had the mix in my hair for one hour. After rinsing with water I did an ACV rinse (one tablespoon of ACV in one liter of water).

Right after my hair had dried I could see the darkest ends, which were really dark brown with a purple tone, had lightened some. The red had lightened too, towards a more orangey tone. But hair hair was really really sticky! Apparently I had a lot of honey residue left in hair but didn't do anything about it cause I was going to do another treatment today.

So, today I did the same kind of mix, had it in hair for one hour. After rinsing with water I washed my hair with some well diluted shampoo.

Today, when I started rinsing, I saw red water coming out of my hair for a few seconds. After my hair had completely dried I could still feel something in my hair. It wasn't quite sticky but felt odd, maybe I was too gentle with the washing and diluted the shampoo too much. Anyway, the darkest parts of my hair had lightened more - the red part was as it was yesterday. That very dark brown I had has turned into medium brown with a red tone.

I am very pleased with the results. My hair feels soft and conditioned, and I bet I could get honey residue out with using more shampoo. And the smell of cinnamon is delicious!

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 04:20 PM
Sceleste

Welcome to LHC.

Thank you so much for sharing your honey lightening recipe and results.

Hip length hair - wonderful!

I am very pleased for you that the recipe lightened your hennaed hair - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey in 1 hour gives you the honey's maximum peroxide value in that time.

The treatment may need to be repeated to get the results desired but from reports so far, in much less time and effort than previous dilutions and recipes.

You boosted the honey peroxide with 2 peroxide boosters - the cinnamon and the EVOO.

Used on their own, both cinnamon and EVOO do not have peroxide values as high as honey can but either one or both used with honey enhance the total recipe peroxide value.

I am also pleased to read that your hair feels so good and is in good condition - no damage has been reported to date with honey lightening - just dry ends.

Honey residue can be tricky - I am sorry that the vinegar rinse alone did not resolve it.

I suggest an undiluted shampoo next time - you have to deal with the EVOO too - which can be difficult to wash out of the hair, depending on the amount used - and you did not use too much from what you said.

GlennaGirl
May 14th, 2008, 08:07 PM
ktani,

As you know, I've gone from very very dark brown/nearly black henndigo to the color in my siggie (indoor lighting) after quite a few honey treatments. I've tried it a number of different ways but have found I got the most lightening with high-fact coconut milk and cinnamon.

Right now I have a 1:4 dilution on my head--honey to 1/2 conditioner-1/2 water, plus a little less than 3 tbsp cinnamon. (I ran out of cinnamon.)

The conditioner is White Rain Water Blossom.

I haven't been wetting down my hair beforehand. This time, I let the mix sit about 10 minutes before applying it, and I also sprayed my hair thoroughly with a mister.

I'll let you know what happens!

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 08:12 PM
GlennaGirl

Thank you for posting the recipe.

Your hair is a lot light than before you started honey lightening.

I look forward to your new results.

Keep your hair covered - you should only need to keep the treatment on for 1 hour this time.

Coconut oil has been reported to be just as effective in honey lightening as coconut cream and I now recommend that it can be used in its place - it is easier to access for many people.

GlennaGirl
May 14th, 2008, 08:17 PM
Thanks, ktani. I'm really happy that my hair is lightening. Or, getting lighter. (It's not made of lightening! Now THAT would be bright.)

I'll keep ya posted...I really appreciate all the work you've done. I know I've said that before but it bears repeating. I think you have saved a lot of people a lot of heartbreak with bleaching, salons and breakage by finding this alternative!

I think I'm going to make a concerted effort to find some coconut oil.

ktani
May 14th, 2008, 08:26 PM
GlennaGirl

You are most welcome.

I have really enjoyed doing the research and the fact that people posting here get so creative with recipes.

I also get excited and pleased to see the reports of results people get when the recipes have worked to their expectations and more in some cases, especially lately.

I am very pleased for people who try honey lightening to be able tell them that from all of the reports so far, in the 5 Honey threads, including this one - no damage to the hair has been reported - only as I have said, honey residue dryness.

flapjack
May 15th, 2008, 02:24 AM
I wanted to post in here to say thank you to ktani who really knows a great deal about this. Your posts have helped me a lot with my own hair adventures, hahaha. I would always get a bit annoyed by my hair once winter would end because the new hair growing in would be noticeably darker from lack of sun and with honey, I have been able to make it match a lot better and bring out more reds that I had hiding in there.


For the record, here is what I've been using and it has been working.


I've been using old tresseme conditioner that I've been trying to get rid of... I will probably switch to burt's bees when it is used up. About 5 ounces of this. Mixed with about 1 tablespoon of ground cinnamon (just plain store brand cinnamon). Then 2 ounces of trader joe's desert mesquite honey. And a dollop of coconut oil and evoo. I used about 1/4 of this mixture on my head at a time and left it in for anywhere between 1-4 hours at night and then washed it out in the shower. After doing this 5 times, I would say that I've gotten many more red and blonde highlights and the top of my hair has lightened by about 2 shades overall. It still looks very natural, the top is still a bit darker than the bottom (as it should be) and it had no adverse effect on the texture of my hair, I just left it in a high bun when I had the stuff on my head.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 06:30 AM
flapjack

Thank you so much for the kind words and for posting your recipe and details.

I think that if you try the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution - you can still include your conditioner in that especially if you continue to use cinnamon - it will help protect you from irritation IMO - but add water - you will be able, if you continue to do honey lightening, to get better results in only 1 hour and with less treatments.

It sounds as if you are making a batch ahead of time and using it slowly.

It has worked for you to do that but I recommend making a batch of only what you need at the time fresh, and using it right away.

2 shades lighter is wonderful and I am very pleased for you that like all of the other reports - there is no damage reported to your hair.

Alley Cat
May 15th, 2008, 06:34 AM
After reading through this thread I decided to try this the other night. I decided to use the water and honey mix 4:1 ratio as getting the conditioners mentioned in the list I don't think is possible here. Though I have some left over Alberto which is VO5 but as it is discontinued here I can only use it once.
The mixture was literally just like water and I thought hmm how will this work, I put it on as best I could putting 2 shower caps and a towel on losing a lot of the mixture down the sink. I left it on for over an hour and there was no change to my hair colour.
I think I will try using the left over Alberto's with honey next.
As I can't get the conditioners on the list I am assuming it's best to get a cone free conditioner that is more on the runny side. Is that right? We have a Pears brand here which is cone free and I think is like your Suave brand, I also can get a cheap brand cone free at another shop.
I don't fancy the drippy water mixture again.
I put a semi permanent in a couple of weeks ago and the colour wasn't what I thought it was and it's too dark.:rolleyes:

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 06:57 AM
After reading through this thread I decided to try this the other night. I decided to use the water and honey mix 4:1 ratio as getting the conditioners mentioned in the list I don't think is possible here. Though I have some left over Alberto which is VO5 but as it is discontinued here I can only use it once.
The mixture was literally just like water and I thought hmm how will this work, I put it on as best I could putting 2 shower caps and a towel on losing a lot of the mixture down the sink. I left it on for over an hour and there was no change to my hair colour.
I think I will try using the left over Alberto's with honey next.
As I can't get the conditioners on the list I am assuming it's best to get a cone free conditioner that is more on the runny side. Is that right? We have a Pears brand here which is cone free and I think is like your Suave brand, I also can get a cheap brand cone free at another shop.
I don't fancy the drippy water mixture again.
I put a semi permanent in a couple of weeks ago and the colour wasn't what I thought it was and it's too dark.:rolleyes:

Alley Cat

Thank you for posting.

Ok - let's break this down. Your recipe was just fine, IMO.

The problem I think was the method - losing a lot of it down the sink was not good.

When I apply my catnip tea to my freshly washed wet hair in the shower (with excess water squeezed out), I put a little of it in my hand at a time and repeatedly apply it to my hair before covering - but it took practice to get it right.

Mellie's Mix is also a liquid - I do not know mellie's method of application - mellie - please help.

For you it may be better to use conditioner in the mix but I still recommend the 4 parts liquid to 1 part honey and then add some oil - EVOO or coconut - not too much - as an extra peroxide boost or you could try Mellie's Mix - 1 cup of boiled water with herbs - 1 tablespoon of Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), 1 tablespoon of mullein to 1/4 cup of honey - if you cannot get alfalfa honey use a dark coloured blend.

The brand of conditioner is not important - it is the ingredients - some cones are not a problem - IMO it is more about the number and concentration of the waxy ingredients and film formers in a conditioner - you will need a light thin one.

mellie
May 15th, 2008, 07:20 AM
My mix is very much a liquid. I apply it first by brushing it on with a tint brush over the sink. I keep doing this until the hair is very saturated. Then I pour the rest through my hair (over the sink again) and squeeze out any excess.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 07:23 AM
mellie

What a great idea - cool!

Is this on wet hair with the excess water squeezed out or on dry hair?

Alley Cat
May 15th, 2008, 07:32 AM
Alley Cat

Thank you for posting.

Ok - let's break this down. Your recipe was just fine, IMO.

The problem I think was the method - losing a lot of it down the sink was not good.

When I apply my catnip tea to my freshly washed wet hair in the shower, I put a little of it in my hand at a time and repeatedly apply it to my hair before covering - but it took practice to get it right.

Mellie's Mix is also a liquid - I do not know mellie's method of application - mellie - please help.

For you it may be better to use conditioner in the mix but I still recommend the 4 parts liquid to 1 part honey and then add some oil - EVOO or coconut - not too much - as an extra peroxide boost or you could try Mellie's Mix - 1 cup of boiled water with herbs - 1 tablespoon of Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), 1 tablespoon of mullein to 1/4 cup of honey - if you cannot get alfalfa honey use a dark coloured blend.

The brand of conditioner is not important - it is the ingredients - some cones are not a problem - IMO it is more about the number and concentration of the waxy ingredients and film formers in a conditioner - you will need a light thin one.
Thanks for that. I wonder also if the length of my hair makes it difficult mine is past waist which is always awkward for applying things. I thought about adding something else I do have some cinnamon as posted earlier in the thread , and I have both coconut and of course EVOO. :)


My mix is very much a liquid. I apply it first by brushing it on with a tint brush over the sink. I keep doing this until the hair is very saturated. Then I pour the rest through my hair (over the sink again) and squeeze out any excess.
I did try a bit with a tint brush but it felt like it was taking forever so I put my length straight in the bowl and then added the rest as best I could . But I still felt a lot was being wasted and it was difficult to keep that on my head for that time as I needed a towel over the shower caps and it wasn't comfortable. :shrug:

naturechild
May 15th, 2008, 07:38 AM
I did the mix last night:

4-1 the 4 being camomile tea with mullin leaf and about 3 tbs of cinnamon

It was a pretty watery mix that I rinsed through my hair (pour over my head, catching it in a large bowl and repeating untill most all was in my hair) I wrapped in in plastic and then a towel and worked around the house for an hour. I washed my hair as usual, CWC.

I had nice lightening, my red tones are becomeing sorta strawberry-ish and gold tones are (starting) to appear. I have a long way to go but I see progress!! after 3 times.

I will deffenetly keep this up.
Plus it makes my DF laugh when he see's me in the towel walking around the yard.

Ktani: I didnt even notice the tone, we all love ya girl, you are our "honey"

naturechild
May 15th, 2008, 07:40 AM
Oh I forgot to mention it was rinsed through dry hair.
;)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 07:42 AM
Alley Cat

For me, it is easier to work with my hair all forward - sometimes referred to here as upside down - I can grab everything and not have to reach behind me or strain myself, lol.

If you decide to try cinnamon, I definitely suggest using conditioner in the mix and blending the cinnamon in with the honey, conditioner and a bit of oil before you apply the mixture.

Cinnamon is an irritant.

However, in a 4 parts water (liquid) to 1 part honey dilution, you can use less cinnamon that you otherwise might need and when blended well into the recipe, there have not been any reports on cinnamon irritation - the blending buffers the scalp and skin from that, IMO.

mellie
May 15th, 2008, 07:49 AM
ktani asked:

Is this on wet hair with the excess water squeezed out or on dry hair?

Yes, that's right.

alleycat said:

I did try a bit with a tint brush but it felt like it was taking forever so I put my length straight in the bowl and then added the rest as best I could . But I still felt a lot was being wasted and it was difficult to keep that on my head for that time as I needed a towel over the shower caps and it wasn't comfortable.

Up until recently, I did my honey treatments outside in low sun, and I carried my cup & tint brush out with me. I left my hair uncovered, and from time to time throughout the hour, would reapply.

This last time I tried it as ktani recommended, and placed a plastic bag over covered by a towel.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 07:53 AM
My mix is very much a liquid. I apply it first by brushing it on with a tint brush over the sink. I keep doing this until the hair is very saturated. Then I pour the rest through my hair (over the sink again) and squeeze out any excess.

naturechild

I must admit, that I never considered the problems that might occur with the 4 parts water or liquid to 1 part honey in terms of the method of application.

I think that mellie's method is the best in terms of ensuring a more even distibution of the more liquid recipes.

Thank you for your kind words on that post and your affection. I love you all too.

I think that your previous honey lightening attempts will be eclipsed by this new method and the new recipes.

Since you did not mention it - I am guessing that the cinnamon did not irritate your scalp or skin mixed in with the tea - excellent.

Alley Cat
May 15th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Alley Cat

For me, it is easier to work with my hair all forward - sometimes referred to here as upside down - I can grab everything and not have to reach behind me or strain myself, lol.

If you decide to try cinnamon, I definitely suggest using conditioner in the mix and blending the cinnamon in with the honey, conditioner and a bit of oil before you apply the mixture.

Cinnamon is an irritant.

However, in a 4 parts water (liquid) to 1 part honey dilution, you can use less cinnamon that you otherwise might need and when blended well into the recipe, there have not been any reports on cinnamon irritation - the blending buffers the scalp and skin from that, IMO.
Thank you for that ktani. :flower: I think I will try something like that. :)




alleycat said:


Up until recently, I did my honey treatments outside in low sun, and I carried my cup & tint brush out with me. I left my hair uncovered, and from time to time throughout the hour, would reapply.

This last time I tried it as ktani recommended, and placed a plastic bag over covered by a towel.
Thank you mellie :flower:

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 08:17 AM
mellie

I did not quite get that - do you apply your mix to wet or dry hair?

Ok - to go over the method for using the 4 parts water to 1 part honey recipe again in detail;

1. I recommend mellie's method - usung a tint brush and pouring it over the hair at the end.

2. No sunlight, no external heat, no lemon or any Vitamin C content ingredient with the exception of cardamom - it has a higher peroxide value to compensate for its small Vitamin C level.

3. If you use cinnamon or cardamom, blend either one well into the recipe before you apply the honey lightening treatment to your hair.

4. Keep the hair covered while the treament is on the hair for the hour, with plastic to maintain a constant recipe moisture level and if desired as mellie does, with a towel on top of that.

naturechild
May 15th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Ktani
I think you have the patients of a saint.
how many times have we made you repeat that. :)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 08:34 AM
naturechild

If it saves just one person from irritation and makes the difference between poor results and the results they might have - it is worth repeating as many times as necessary, IMO.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 09:05 AM
Now that I think about it, chamomile tea, like catnip, is known for countering irritation.

So, if someone wants to try the chamomile, mullein, honey mix - Mellie's Mix - 1 cup of the tea to 1/4 cup of honey, with cinnamon or cardamom blended well into it - that should be sufficient to help prevent irritation IMO, and based on naturechild's results.

Extra virgin olive oil can be added as well - in a small quantity - to provide a 2nd peroxide booster.

I still recommend the original recipe chamomile - Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis) if you can get it and the recipe honey - if possible - alfalfa honey.

However, German chamomile (Matricaria chamomilla) will do and a dark coloured honey blend should be ok, IMO.

Note: Chamomile tea can cause build-up - so I recommend not making the tea too strong - especially if you are going to be using it repeatedly. Mellie's amount - 1 tablespoon - should be fine, IMO.

My experience with chamomile build-up was with German chamomile - 8-10 teabags at a time for consecutive conditioning - I definitely do not recommend that - Roman chamomile may cause less build-up.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 10:15 AM
Alley Cat

One thing I did not address with you - the shower caps.

I use the freezer bags that come with ties for my catnip treatment. A bag can be washed out and reused - I do that.

There are extra large versions - if you pin your hair up after applying the honey lightening treatment and cover you hair with the freezer bag - all you will have to do is twist the bag in front of you and clip it securely - I just twist the loose part and tuck that part in and under where it is tighter, just over my forehead.

With the bags I use, I stretch the opening wider to fit.

naturechild
May 15th, 2008, 10:25 AM
Good Idea!
I will have to pick up some bags at the doller store
I have tried to use serain(sp?) wrap and it is a comedy to watch, maybe that is why everyone loves when I honey my hair I certenly can make a show if it! lol

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 10:30 AM
naturechild

At one point, years ago - for conditioning treatments - I bought the bags they use at hair salons - but I found that they were too loose - the freezer bags - aside from being cheaper - fit better and are more secure.

I used to find them too tight at first - now I just stretch out the opening until it is comfortable - a simple, yet effective method for customizing them.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 10:51 AM
I buy Glad freezer bags by the way - the brand though does not matter IMO - the thicker plastic of freezer bags stretches well but does not tear easily and one bag, washed and reused, can last for months, making it a very inexpensive method - a box of 20 bags will last me indefinitely. Even a box of 10 would.

A freezer bag keeps body heat in beautifully and covers my nape hair well, when I stretch it out just enough.

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 01:29 PM
ktani,

First, let me give you a huge thank you for the very interesting researching you've been putting together!

I love my henna, but over my natural color (medium-dark ashy brown) it soon builds up to a dark burgundy-ish auburn, which just doesn't go nicely with the warm tones in my skin and eyes. What I really wanted was a lighter and warmer auburn, or a medium-dark orange-red. I figured I needed henna glosses (or mixes with more cassia than henna) instead of full henna applications, but first I had to lighten my base color so the henna will have some room to go a bit darker and still look the way I wanted it to look.

Of course, I didn't want any regular bleach near my hair - specially now that I recently chopped off nearly a foot of my previously past-waist length hair, just to get rid of old old dye and start fresh with undamaged hair. Yes, I'm upset that it's now only a couple of inches past my shoulders, I really miss my long hair! But I'm resolute that I will grow it again, longer this time, and healthier to boot!

So, the amazing experiments you have got going on here have thrilled me to no end! Finally, I glimpse of hope of having the lighter, warmer auburn I wanted so badly!

Today I'm taking the plunge. My recipe will be something around these lines:

- 1:4 honey to water ratio - by "water", read: half regular strength chamomile tea, half no-cone, CO-safe, runny conditioner (we no longer have Suave Naturals around here, so I'm using Revlon Aquamarine Daily Use, no cones, no mineral oil, just a little hydrolyzed collagen at the end of the list - good enough for CO though)
- about 2 tbsp ground cinnamon
- and I may throw in a half tbsp coconut oil or less. (I don't have EVOO here at the moment. I wonder if EVOO has better peroxide value?)

I'm very patient with these treatments (I usually leave my henna on overnight for more than 9 hours), so I probably will wait at least 4 hours before washing it off.

I'll report back with any changes to this initial recipe and the perceived results. It's been a long time since I've done my last henna (6 months?) and I have a few dozen pure white hairs going strong, so let's see how this recipe fares with my white hairs (I wonder if they'll turn slightly blonde), my virgin hair and my hennaed hair. Hmmm... it should be interesting! :)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 01:38 PM
ktani,

First, let me give you a huge thank you for the very interesting researching you've been putting together!

I love my henna, but over my natural color (medium-dark ashy brown) it soon builds up to a dark burgundy-ish auburn, which just doesn't go nicely with the warm tones in my skin and eyes. What I really wanted was a lighter and warmer auburn, or a medium-dark orange-red. I figured I needed henna glosses (or mixes with more cassia than henna) instead of full henna applications, but first I had to lighten my base color so the henna will have some room to go a bit darker and still look the way I wanted it to look.

Of course, I didn't want any regular bleach near my hair - specially now that I recently chopped off nearly a foot of my previously past-waist length hair, just to get rid of old old dye and start fresh with undamaged hair. Yes, I'm upset that it's now only a couple of inches past my shoulders, I really miss my long hair! But I'm resolute that I will grow it again, longer this time, and healthier to boot!

So, the amazing experiments you have got going on here have thrilled me to no end! Finally, I glimpse of hope of having the lighter, warmer auburn I wanted so badly!

Today I'm taking the plunge. My recipe will be something around these lines:

- 1:4 honey to water ratio - by "water", read: half regular strength chamomile tea, half no-cone, CO-safe, runny conditioner (we no longer have Suave Naturals around here, so I'm using Revlon Aquamarine Daily Use, no cones, no mineral oil, just a little hydrolyzed collagen at the end of the list - good enough for CO though)
- about 2 tbsp ground cinnamon
- and I may throw in a half tbsp coconut oil or less. (I don't have EVOO here at the moment. I wonder if EVOO has better peroxide value?)

I'm very patient with these treatments (I usually leave my henna on overnight for more than 9 hours), so I probably will wait at least 4 hours before washing it off.

I'll report back with any changes to this initial recipe and the perceived results. It's been a long time since I've done my last henna (6 months?) and I have a few dozen pure white hairs going strong, so let's see how this recipe fares with my white hairs (I wonder if they'll turn slightly blonde), my virgin hair and my hennaed hair. Hmmm... it should be interesting! :)

LadyPolaris

Thank you for your kind words.

Thank you for posting your recipe as well.

EVOO does have a higher peroxide value than any vegetable oil including coconut, which is not a vegetable.

I recommend the 2nd recipe here - your conditioner sounds fine.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl's full set of pictures and details - she is an LHC member
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

You do not need to leave the treatment on your hair for 4 hours - 1 hour is sufficient.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 01:55 PM
LadyPolaris

Correction - instead of water for that part of the recipe, I think chamomile tea is a fine choice.

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 01:55 PM
ktani,

(Eek, I'm sorry, I realize now I should have proof-read my post! "interesting researching", "I glimpse"... I hope it's still understandable!)

Thank you for pointing me towards that 2nd recipe and bizarrogirl's lovely results! I will follow the same proportions, but I think I'll make a smaller batch, my hair is quite fine, scarce and short now. It will have trouble absorbing almost a cup of liquid! A third of a cup will be more than enough. I bet it will drip a lot, still, saran wrap, shower cap, towel and all!

And here's hoping the cinnamon won't wreak too much havoc on my scalp. I did a patch test on the inside of my wrist (just cinnamon mixed with a tiny bit of water) and, sure enough, 10 minutes later it started to itch terribly. Washed it off, had 3 pink patches on my skin and 2 small bumps, but 30 minutes later they were gone. So, I'm sensitive, but not terribly so, thankfully.

Unfortunately I'll have to pass on the EVOO this time. I'll put it on my shopping list!

Here's my conditioner (Revlon Aquamarine Daily Use - keep in mind I'm in Brazil though, the formula there might vary):
Water, Methylparaben, Citric Acid, Fragrance, Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Hydrolyzed Collagen, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Acetamide MEA, Algae, EDTA, Cl 42090, Cl 19140.

I'm off to try this now! :)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 02:03 PM
ktani,

(Eek, I'm sorry, I realize now I should have proof-read my post! "interesting researching", "I glimpse"... I hope it's still understandable!)

Thank you for pointing me towards that 2nd recipe and bizarrogirl's lovely results! I will follow the same proportions, but I think I'll make a smaller batch, my hair is quite fine, scarce and short now. It will have trouble absorbing almost a cup of liquid! A third of a cup will be more than enough. I bet it will drip a lot, still, saran wrap, shower cap, towel and all!

And here's hoping the cinnamon won't wreak too much havoc on my scalp. I did a patch test on the inside of my wrist (just cinnamon mixed with a tiny bit of water) and, sure enough, 10 minutes later it started to itch terribly. Washed it off, had 3 pink patches on my skin and 2 small bumps, but 30 minutes later they were gone. So, I'm sensitive, but not terribly so, thankfully.

Unfortunately I'll have to pass on the EVOO this time. I'll put it on my shopping list!

Here's my conditioner (Revlon Aquamarine Daily Use - keep in mind I'm in Brazil though, the formula there might vary):
Water, Methylparaben, Citric Acid, Fragrance, Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetrimonium Chloride, Hydrolyzed Collagen, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Acetamide MEA, Algae, EDTA, Cl 42090, Cl 19140.

I'm off to try this now! :)

LadyPolaris

No worries about your phrasing.

I think I posted while you were replying - chamomile tea is fine and may be preferable to just water with your sensitivity to cinnamon.

Your conditioner looks as if it is mostly preservatives which is fine too for this purpose. The order of ingredients may be just how they list them in Brazil.

You can try - patch test it first though - cardamom instead of cinnamon - that is why I have been promoting it - it may be a less irritating alternative to cinnamon that should give the same if not better results.

It is better IMO, to slow down and take the time to test things out as you have done but please - your hair will be there tomorrow waiting for you - irritation can take longer to remedy.

It is not the size of the batch that is important - it is the proportions and dilution that count - and you realize that.

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 03:26 PM
Good morning, ktani and everyone!

I just wanted to post my latest results. This latest honey-ing was:

1/4 c. honey (unpasteurized)
1/2 c. White Rain conditioner
1/2 c. water
3 tbsp. cinnamon

I don't know if I can tell a difference. I do feel like I can see tiny bits of red trying to poke their way out. I'm honey-ing from about 3" from my scalp on down. What's above that is just henna; what's below it is several henndigoings.

Here's a pic under the same lighting as my avatar (midday, indoors, flash):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Melsie/IMG_1699.jpg

It's a bit difficult, I know, because the sig pic is a braid. The pic from today is down, after damp-bunning...something I really must try again in my stick-straight hair!

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 03:37 PM
GlennaGirl

Good morning!

Thank you for posting your latest results.

I do not see a dramatic difference but your hair is lighter than it was by far with honey lightening over all compared to a while ago.

I would increase the cinnamon by 1 tablespoon, and perhaps change honeys and conditioners, unless you want to post the conditioner ingredients please, so I can take a peek.

Raw honey is expensive and not necessary - enjoy it as a food - the cheap, dark pasteurized blends of honey are fine for honey lightening.

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 03:42 PM
Okay, it's in my hair right now! I got the whole saran wrap - shower cap - fluffy towel look going on, plus another towel around my neck (a third of a cup is drippy on my short hair, but not terribly so).

I now realize I totally forgot about the coconut oil. Oh well! Just conditioner, chamomile tea, honey and cinnamon then:
- 1:4 honey to water ratio - by "water", read: half regular strength warm chamomile tea, half no-cone, CO-safe, runny conditioner (Revlon Aquamarine Daily Use, no cones, no mineral oil, just a little hydrolyzed collagen at the end of the list). The whole mix was enough to fill 1/3 cup.
- about 2 tbsp ground cinnamon.


First I hopped in the shower and did the usual diluted clarifying shampoo wash I do every other week (regular, sulfate-laden clarifying shampoo, but about 1/3 of what one would normally use, diluted in a little water). Got a really scary foam going, from the scalp to the ends of my hair. Rinsed it out very well, squeezed excess water, gently patted semi-dry with a towel. Then applied the magical concoction. It smells awesome! My fingers were a bit itchy during the process (I have eczema on my hands, but it's under control now with natural soaps, shea butter, Omega-3 capsules and lots of care). My head, however, didn't itch at all. Granted, I did try to steer clear of my scalp when applying - I think I did manage to get the mixture pretty close to it without touching it, though. I made a small mess in the sink but it was easily washable - not like henna. Now it's sitting for about half an hour and still no itchies! Just drippies. :P

I have a question for you, knowledgeable ktani!

I mixed the whole thing (including the cinnamon) at about 4 to 4:10 PM (my timezone). I added the chamomile tea when it was still warm (but not hot anymore - I could touch it without getting burned). There was a thick layer of conditioner between the tea and the honey though, so I still think that the peroxide fared ok in spite of the warmth. When it was almost cool I mixed the whole recipe together. Then I placed it in my bathroom and stepped in the shower. When I came out it was 20 minutes later, then I started slathering it on, which took a while (it was a bit too much product for my hair, I'll make a note about that). After all the saran wrap - shower cap - 2 towels routine and getting dressed, the honey was just about completing the 1 hour mark since it had been mixed with 4 parts water.

My question is:
Does the peroxide decay after reaching its maximum concentration at the 1 hour mark (1 part honey, 4 parts water), or is it still good for a number of hours?

(Because if it does decay, maybe next time I'll mix the recipe before I step out of the shower instead.)

I wonder how many hours I should leave it in for maximum lightening... maybe after a while it doesn't lighten any further?

I'll see if I can get cardamom somewhere, I don't recall seeing it but I never really looked for it. If it indeed has more peroxide value than cinnamon, it seems to be a great substitute (even though cinnamon at this rate of dilution isn't causing any reaction from my scalp so far).

Thank you for your awesome help, ktani! :)

I'll report back with results. I don't have a before picture this time, but I can try taking an after picture when I get daylight again. I'll try to describe the results with words the best I can, though.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 03:52 PM
LadyPolaris

No, I do not think that the peroxde starts to decay right away on dilution - in the link that gave me the information that I applied to my recommendations, they let the honey sit for 1 hour with that dilution, before testing the honey for its peroxide level.

Some people have made honey lightening recipe batches in advance and refridgerated them and still got results, according to reports, although I recommend making the batches fresh each time.

Also some people have left the recipe on their hair longer than 1 hour with no problems - I do not think that is necessary - 1 hour from the time that you have covered your hair is sufficient, IMO.

I think that you are just fine.

I am very glad to read that so far, you are not having a reaction to the cinnamon!

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 04:02 PM
ktani,

Thank you tons for your help and guidance, again! If it doesn't decay (or doesn't decay much), I think I'll keep it on my hair for at least a couple of hours. I don't plan on doing this more than once a week, so it's more practical to just leave it on a while longer than to do it more often. (More practical, yes - but I don't know about more efficient. Which is best, a 2 hour treatment once a week, or 1 hour treatments twice a week?)

I hope I can perceive some difference. I know it will be very very subtle, but if it's there, I'll be doing weekly lightening treatments for sure. I'll report back!

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 04:06 PM
LadyPolaris

One step at a time, lol. And you are most welcome.

First - wait and see how this recipe has worked.

Then you can decide whether it needs modfying and how you wish to proceed in terms of frequency.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 04:13 PM
My latest research has indicated that dark coloured honey blends have higher peroxide values - in tests done on U.S. honey.

flapjack
May 15th, 2008, 04:40 PM
flapjack

Thank you so much for the kind words and for posting your recipe and details.

I think that if you try the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution - you can still include your conditioner in that especially if you continue to use cinnamon - it will help protect you from irritation IMO - but add water - you will be able, if you continue to do honey lightening, to get better results in only 1 hour and with less treatments.

It sounds as if you are making a batch ahead of time and using it slowly.

It has worked for you to do that but I recommend making a batch of only what you need at the time fresh, and using it right away.

2 shades lighter is wonderful and I am very pleased for you that like all of the other reports - there is no damage reported to your hair.



You're welcome. I'm glad my experience can help someone else, too, if possible.


Yeah, I only meant to make one batch but I think I kind of went overboard, hahaha. Once I use the rest of this up (it's in the refridgerator at the moment because I'm paranoid about anything food related being out in the hot weather where I live), I will be more careful to make one batch at a time, that was my original intent.


Another good plan would be to get more exact with my measurements, which I will also try, haha. I was thinking about cinnamon for next time... I wanted to try without because I was still a bit scared, hearing (and seeing photos) of all these stories of skin irritation. But as you and others said, if it works when it's already mixed in with the conditioner and honey then I will have to give it a shot.


And for the record, in case anyone is wondering... it washes out incredibly easy. Those of you who do WO would probably be able to get it all out... my hair felt completely normal again after just a good rinsing, I used shampoo anyway but I don't think I would have needed it to get out the honey. This might depend on hairtype. My hair is stick straight and has a lot of natural slip.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 04:41 PM
Pasteurizing does not affect the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide - according to reports and pictures in all of the Honey threads
- save money - buy the cheap stuff for honey lightening!

It is the plant source that determines a honey's peroxide level. Buy a cheap, dark coloured honey blend - that includes blends of different varieties one type of plant, like alfalfa.

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 05:26 PM
I put together a little recipe-in-a-picture, I plan on enlightening (pun intended) some people with it. As long as I give credit to TLHC and you, ktani, do I have your permission to share it?

Here it is:

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/7c9bdd01.jpg

It looks kinda yummy, too. I probably should have put 'Do not eat!' somewhere in there! ;)

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 05:45 PM
Cheap and dark. Got it. Thank you!

Oh man, polaris, that second picture is making me hungry.

I wanted to post a big-A picture of what I'll now call my "starting" color, although as you can see, the ends have lightened over my many treatments to the perfect roots-matching color. So from now on I'll just honey that huge center area that's brown:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Melsie/IMG_1704.jpg

Outdoors, no flash. During the coming weeks I'll post more pictures under exactly those circumstances and let's see if I can't get my whole head to be red!

SPECIAL NOTE: This is important for honey-ers to know. The bottom area which is much lighter than that middle area, was dark as pitch before starting honey treatments. My entire head of hair was dark as pitch, close to black. I think my honey may be dripping down or something and pooling on the ends and that's why the ends have lightened much more than the center. But before honey, my entire head of hair was nearly black with henndigo. The ends have lightened to almost red--matching the very top, which is just henna, no indigo.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 06:09 PM
LadyPolaris

I think that it is a bit premature to post the recipe until you have results but it is ok with me - you could link the post to this thread.

You should also mention the method of application and that the hair must be covered with plastic for the hour to maintain the recipe moisture level.

Fantastic pictures!

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 06:11 PM
GlennaGirl

That is a perfect picture - perfect lighting - way to go. Please give more details on your results, if you can.

I just saw your edit of the details - thanks.

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 06:14 PM
GlennaGirl

That is a perfect picture - perfect lighting - way to go. Please give more details on your results, if you can.

Thanks, ktani! I just edited with more info but it might get lost in that big post w/the big picture...anyway, see how light-red my ends are? They, and the entire rest of my hair, were nearly black with henndigo before starting my honey treatments. (You can especially see this redness next to my left shoulder in the picture.)

They nearly perfectly match my couple of inches of regrowth, on which I have used *only* henna and only once.

I love my ends!!! I want the middle to lighten too. Or rather, it did lighten--to a medium-dark brown--but this area obviously needs more attention in my honeying adventures. I'm going to use the treatments only on that great big dark middle part from now on and protect the ends and not touch the roots.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 06:25 PM
GlennaGirl

Thank you.

I just added your beautiful picture to the list here, which I will keep updating.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111734&postcount=642

Alley Cat
May 15th, 2008, 06:32 PM
Alley Cat

One thing I did not address with you - the shower caps.

I use the freezer bags that come with ties for my catnip treatment. A bag can be washed out and reused - I do that.

There are extra large versions - if you pin your hair up after applying the honey lightening treatment and cover you hair with the freezer bag - all you will have to do is twist the bag in front of you and clip it securely - I just twist the loose part and tuck that part in and under where it is tighter, just over my forehead.

With the bags I use, I stretch the opening wider to fit.
Thank you for that ktani. :flower:
I don't know if we have bags like that here so I might stick to shower caps for now, thanks anyway. :)

Alley Cat
May 15th, 2008, 06:35 PM
Just wondering when you say only add a little bit of oil like coconut or EVOO how much do you mean 1 tablespoon or more or less? :ponder: Thanks. :)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 06:38 PM
GlennaGirl

That is amazing - your henndigoed ends are the same colour as your henna only roots now!

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 06:46 PM
Alley Cat

It is hard to say exactly - a tablespoon sounds right - give or take - maybe 1.5 tablespoons - you will have to see how your hair feels after you have washed it.

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 06:50 PM
LadyPolaris

I think that it is a bit premature to post the recipe until you have results but it is ok with me - you could link the post to this thread.

You should also mention the method of application and that the hair must be covered with plastic for the hour to maintain the recipe moisture level.

Fantastic pictures!

Thank you for the kind words! :) Good pointers, I'll mention those as well. Well, if it doesn't work for me in particular (knock on wood!) I don't think it would be the recipe's fault, it has worked for a lot of ladies here! Maybe the conditioner could be wrong, or my hair would be just stubborn. (Gosh, no, let's not think that way. It WILL work!) :D


GlennaGirl

Wow, those are amazing results! How long have you been doing lightening treatments?

Alley Cat
May 15th, 2008, 06:54 PM
Alley Cat

It is hard to say exactly - a tablespoon sounds right - give or take - maybe 1.5 tablespoons - you will have to see how your hair feels after you have washed it.
Ok thank you for that. :)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 06:58 PM
Thank you for the kind words! :) Good pointers, I'll mention those as well. Well, if it doesn't work for me in particular (knock on wood!) I don't think it would be the recipe's fault, it has worked for a lot of ladies here! Maybe the conditioner could be wrong, or my hair would be just stubborn. (Gosh, no, let's not think that way. It WILL work!) :D


GlennaGirl

Wow, those are amazing results! How long have you been doing lightening treatments?

LadyPolaris

There are a number of things involved - your conditioner looks fine to me - it is not your hair - trust me - the honey might not be the right one - good luck!

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 07:04 PM
ktani,

Thank you! :) I'm waiting for my hair to dry right now. I rinsed it with only water, I think there will be a bit of honey residue but I was curious to see what it would do to my hair before I decide upon using shampoo, shampoo bars or conditioners to wash it all out.

I bought good quality honey for this, at least it's more expensive than the one I normally use for SMT, hennaing etc. It doesn't say what flowers are involved... but it's pure honey and rather dark. I hope it works for this!

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 07:11 PM
LadyPolaris

I am directing you to this post.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111887&postcount=651

And this one.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111849&postcount=649

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Thank you so much, ktani! I will look for darker honey next time I'm doing groceries. This one I'm using is dark, but I've seen darker... thanks for the tip! :)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 07:21 PM
LadyPolaris

It is not just about the colour of the honey.

Because the plant source determines the peroxide value of a honey, and it is difficult to predict which plant honeys are the best - alfalfa has been reported to work well but there are no doubt others, a blend increases the odds of buying one that will work well in honey lightening treatments IMO, and according to research I found on honey peroxide levels.

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 07:28 PM
GlennaGirl

That is amazing - your henndigoed ends are the same colour as your henna only roots now!

I know, isn't that just perfect? I'm thrilled. Now I just have to lighten the center area and it should all match...I'm very happy.

I wouldn't have continued with it if I hadn't kept reading your updates, ktani, and I can't thank you enough for that. I think you've saved my hair.

Polaris: I think I've done about 20 treatments. Remember though that I was lightening from almost black. That's gonna take a lot of treatments. :D

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 07:30 PM
ktani, I see. Unfortunately very few honey brands here actually have that much information on the label - it's very rare to find one stating the plant source. Maybe it's a matter of different food regulation agencies from country to country. I'll certainly look for a dark one that says it's a blend, but it's iffy! Maybe in a health food store!

GlennaGirl, it's amazing that you achieved so much lightening on your roots and ends starting from almost black! I wonder where 20 treatments will leave me at... maybe light brown? That would be an awesome start for henna. :) (Hope dies last!)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 07:31 PM
GlennaGirl

Most of those treatments were with the old dilutions.

How many treatments did it take to get your ends red?

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 07:46 PM
LadyPolaris

It is the same here - I stumbled on the blend information on a honey here in Canada that does not say what it is on the jar either - the information was on the net!

Do not worry too much about it or spend extra money on health food store honeys - IMO you stand the same chance of buying one that will work for less money at the grocery store.

As for the number of treatments that you will need to do?

The 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution is changing the speed and rate of lightening for honey lightening treatments according to recent reports - hope never dies until we kill it - hang tight - you never know!

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 08:09 PM
GlennaGirl

Most of those treatments were with the old dilutions.

How many treatments did it take to get your ends red?

Yeah, you're right about that.

I think I've done 15-ish. I was thinking 20 but trying to count back on my fingers, I think I was having a brain jam. Probably 15, and recall that some also didn't have any of the additives, like cinnamon. Also--I should add that I've been noticing for a while now that my ends seemed redder than the rest of my hair. I'm not sure how dramatically, but I must have started vaguely noticing this after around 6-7-ish treatments or thereabout.

Only one so far was with the dilution. But I think I'm swayed to the Dilution Wagon now! ETA: The dilution seemed to turn my ends from brown-reddish to just a basic red that matches my roots.

It takes patience, but I'll tell ya. I'm already putting stuff on my head a couple of times a week for 30 minutes each time to CO. What's another half hour with honey in my conditioner? I'd recommend trying this to anyone who wants to go lighter, doesn't mind staying reddish and doesn't need anything very sudden. But who wants to save her hair from (dah-dah-DAHHHHHHHHHH) bleach! (Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 08:14 PM
Alley Cat

It is hard to say exactly - a tablespoon sounds right - give or take - maybe 1.5 tablespoons - you will have to see how your hair feels after you have washed it.

Yes. It can be kind of a bear to get olive oil out of the hair and you may need to resort to shampoo. I personally would start out small like ktani says...a tablespoon plus and then more next time if your hair is good with it and if you want to try to achieve more lightening.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 08:21 PM
GlennaGirl

I did not know that you were back to honey lightening until recently.

I am trying to track the difference in results with the new 4 to 1 dilution and previous dilutions - it is easier with other reports - the switch has produced visible differences in less time.

I cannot tell from your new results what the difference is from before you did this treatment.

3 questions please.

1. How long did you leave the 4 to 1 dilution on your hair?

2. How is your hair in terms of its condition? - it looks wonderful - but I always ask.

3. What is the difference in colour from this treatment alone?

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 09:01 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmm...


1. How long did you leave the 4 to 1 dilution on your hair?

One hour and 15 minutes.

2. How is your hair in terms of its condition? - it looks wonderful - but I always ask.

Oh, thank you! My hair is in very good condition. There are no chemical processes on it (just henna and indigo). It's very soft and very smooth, pretty slippery feeling, if that makes sense. I don't have many splits and rarely need to trim or S&D.

3. What is the difference in colour from this treatment alone?

From this treatment alone I immediately noticed that my light ends were really light. Not just light brown but actually back to red...as if the indigo was all gone and just a layer of henna remained. I saw that last night when it was drying and I was pretty amazed. My ends had been lighter than the rest of my hair for some time (following honey-ing) but after this particular treatment, when I took the picture, bam. They look just as if I'd hennaed once over virgin hair...exactly what I've been trying for.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 09:08 PM
Hmmmmmmmmmm...


1. How long did you leave the 4 to 1 dilution on your hair?

One hour and 15 minutes.

2. How is your hair in terms of its condition? - it looks wonderful - but I always ask.

Oh, thank you! My hair is in very good condition. There are no chemical processes on it (just henna and indigo). It's very soft and very smooth, pretty slippery feeling, if that makes sense. I don't have many splits and rarely need to trim or S&D.

3. What is the difference in colour from this treatment alone?

From this treatment alone I immediately noticed that my light ends were really light. Not just light brown but actually back to red...as if the indigo was all gone and just a layer of henna remained. I saw that last night when it was drying and I was pretty amazed.

GlennaGirl

So, just before this treatment - what colour were the ends that are now red? Were they light brown?

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 09:14 PM
GlennaGirl

So, just before this treatment - what colour were the ends that are now red? Were they light brown?

They were light brown with a hint of red outdoors, no red at all visible really indoors.

Now following the dilution treatment, I can look down at them indoors and they're red.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 09:20 PM
They were light brown with a hint of red outdoors, no red at all visible really indoors.

Now following the dilution treatment, I can look down at them indoors and they're red.

GlennaGirl

Thank you so much for your patience with this.

Ok - honey lightening had previously, without the 4 to 1 dilution, got your henndigoed ends to a light brown with a hint of red.

1 hour and 15 minutes of a treatment with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, moved that colour to the same colour as your henna only roots - not too shabby at all IMO.

And your hair's condition is consistant with the no damage reports of the last 4 Honey threads and this one, which make 5 to date.

More importantly IMO, your no hair damage report is consistant with all of the other reports on the condition of hair after long term honey lightening.

Other than honey residue dry ends, which can easily be resolved with shampoo and or a vinegar rinse and is not a long term problem if that is done - honey lightening has not been reported to negatively affect hair - to date.

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 09:31 PM
LadyPolaris

It is the same here - I stumbled on the blend information on a honey here in Canada that does not say what it is on the jar either - the information was on the net!

Do not worry too much about it or spend extra money on health food store honeys - IMO you stand the same chance of buying one that will work for less money at the grocery store.

As for the number of treatments that you will need to do?

The 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution is changing the speed and rate of lightening for honey lightening treatments according to recent reports - hope never dies until we kill it - hang tight - you never know!


Good call ktani!! I'll google for info on the honey brands we have here - who knows, I might even find one that says it has a blended source! I'll keep in mind the cheaper brands of honey as well.

I'm thrilled with the new dilution rate working so well for the ladies here!

--------------------

Ta-da!! RESULTS OF MY FIRST TREATMENT: :)

My hair is dry! (Finally! I always air dry but today it was extra slow!)

Remember I said I rinsed the mixture out with only water, to see what type of residue I'll be dealing with? Well, my hair is softer than usual, shinier than usual, and the length is wavy! This never happens when I do regular CO, so I'm guessing the residue from honey, cinnamon and/or chamomile tea may have a lot to do with it. Also, my hair has lots of body - even more than with shampoo bars! I think I like this residue! ;)

NO damage at all from this first treatment, not even crunchy ends, and given the residue which I'm sure is there, that's saying a lot!

My pure white hairs are still pure white, as far as I can tell. Apparently nothing in the mix tinted them any color. Hubby said one of my smaller white hairs had one inch of blond at the end, but I can't detect that! Maybe when daylight comes again?

My hennaed ends are slightly more orangy than before. Hubby said it looked like they were hennaed with weak henna - and I really think they lost a tad of the burgundy tone, which probably means one less henna layer in there, I think?

The virgin parts of my hair look a little lighter - more of a true brown and less of the medium-dark ashy brown I had before. Some hairs have subtle coppery brown highlights that definitely weren't there before! It's like I had nano-highlights done by a really meticulous robot, in a golden shade one step lighter than my hair. :D

Overall, I'm thrilled with these results, not bad at all for a first treatment, and the highlights only in certain hairs were unexpected - so this is not only natural lightening, but multidimensional lightening as well! Also, I'm amazed that my hair actually feels a lot more healthy than it felt before!

I'm sold! (I just hope the bees don't sue me for abusing their honey like in the Bee Movie. Gotta watch for those pesky lawyer mosquitos.)

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Good call ktani!! I'll google for info on the honey brands we have here - who knows, I might even find one that says it has a blended source! I'll keep in mind the cheaper brands of honey as well.

I'm thrilled with the new dilution rate working so well for the ladies here!

--------------------

Ta-da!! RESULTS OF MY FIRST TREATMENT: :)

My hair is dry! (Finally! I always air dry but today it was extra slow!)

Remember I said I rinsed the mixture out with only water, to see what type of residue I'll be dealing with? Well, my hair is softer than usual, shinier than usual, and the length is wavy! This never happens when I do regular CO, so I'm guessing the residue from honey, cinnamon and/or chamomile tea may have a lot to do with it. Also, my hair has lots of body - even more than with shampoo bars! I think I like this residue! ;)

NO damage at all from this first treatment, not even crunchy ends, and given the residue which I'm sure is there, that's saying a lot!

My pure white hairs are still pure white, as far as I can tell. Apparently nothing in the mix tinted them any color. Hubby said one of my smaller white hairs had one inch of blond at the end, but I can't detect that! Maybe when daylight comes again?

My hennaed ends are slightly more orangy than before. Hubby said it looked like they were hennaed with weak henna - and I really think they lost a tad of the burgundy tone, which probably means one less henna layer in there, I think?

The virgin parts of my hair look a little lighter - more of a true brown and less of the medium-dark ashy brown I had before. Some hairs have subtle coppery brown highlights that definitely weren't there before! It's like I had nano-highlights done by a really meticulous robot, in a golden shade one step lighter than my hair. :D

Overall, I'm thrilled with these results, not bad at all for a first treatment, and the highlights only in certain hairs were unexpected - so this is not only natural lightening, but multidimensional lightening as well! Also, I'm amazed that my hair actually feels a lot more healthy than it felt before!

I'm sold! (I just hope the bees don't sue me for abusing their honey like in the Bee Movie. Gotta watch for those pesky lawyer mosquitos.)

LadyPolaris

Thank you for posting your results.

I am pleased for you that you are so pleased with the results.

I am though going to ask for a favour for the next time.

Please take a picture in good lighting - based on your other pictures it should be amazing - so I can see exactly what colour your hair is now - and it will serve as the before picture for further treatments.

One thing that I should mention and forgot about - honey residue was more common before the 4 o 1 dilution but still has happened - it no doubt depends on the amount of honey used.

I cannot wait to see the colour of your hair - your details have been very exact including your report on the condition of your hair - thank you so much for a very detailed 1st report.

GlennaGirl
May 15th, 2008, 09:54 PM
GlennaGirl

Thank you so much for your patience with this.

Ok - honey lightening had previously, without the 4 to 1 dilution, got your henndigoed ends to a light brown with a hint of red.

1 hour and 15 minutes of a treatment with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, moved that colour to the same colour as your henna only roots - not too shabby at all IMO.

And your hair's condition is consistant with the no damage reports of the last 4 Honey threads and this one, which make 5 to date.

More importantly IMO, your no hair damage report is consistant with all of the other reports on the condition of hair after long term honey lightening.

Other than honey residue dry ends, which can easily be resolved with shampoo and or a vinegar rinse and is not a long term problem if that is done - honey lightening has not been reported to negatively affect hair - to date.

Yup, yup, yup, yup and yup! :D As for honey residue, I'm one of the lucky ones. I have only had this problem once and the next time I just rinsed for longer. I think the "CO"ing effect of the conditioner "washes" my hair during my honey treatments. I rinse for a good while, warm and then finally cool...and in the end, no residue, stickiness or ickiness.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 10:06 PM
I am not going to start a separate thread for Honey results - instead I am going to continue my recaps, and add to the Pictures Post on results.

I have set up an index of posts for myself to keep track of reports so that I can retreive them very easily.

I can repost anything now easily.

This thread is on fire!

Multiple Honey threads get reports all over the place.

I prefer one centralized thread where I know where everything is and can locate what is needed.

LadyPolaris - I want to add your pictures to the ones I have posted - get clicking please, lol.

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 10:22 PM
LadyPolaris

Thank you for posting your results.

I am pleased for you that you are so pleased with the results.

I am though going to ask for a favour for the next time.

Please take a picture in good lighting - based on your other pictures it should be amazing - so I can see exactly what colour your hair is now - and it will serve as the before picture for further treatments.

One thing that I should mention and forgot about - honey residue was more common before the 4 o 1 dilution but still has happened - it no doubt depends on the amount of honey used.

I cannot wait to see the colour of your hair - your details have been very exact including your report on the condition of your hair - thank you so much for a very detailed 1st report.

Thank you for the kind words, glad you liked my report! I tend to write way too much, but for reports that may actually be a good thing for once. :)

Sure I'll take a picture! When there's daylight again I'll try and take a decent one. (I really need a tripod.) My next pics will be all in the same place and same time of day for consistency.

About the honey residue - ah, that figures. When I was rinsing it out I felt it, but now that my hair is dry I don't feel anything sticky or waxy at all, just soft hair!

I can't wait for my next lightening treatment - next week!

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 10:26 PM
LadyPolaris

I look forward to the picture- if you have a recent picture of your hair colour - pre-honey lightening in similar lighting - I could post the new set right away - but I will be patient if you do not.

LadyPolaris
May 15th, 2008, 10:45 PM
ktani, I unfortunately don't have any recent picture of my hair! I definitely didn't enjoy having most of it chopped off. It was for a good cause - a fresh start - but apparently I thought that everything else was a much nicer photography subject from then on - I've got pictures of cats, makeup items, Christmas tree decorations, even of chamomile tea, but no hair pictures. :rolleyes: Tomorrow I'll take my before-but-not-quite picture.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 10:50 PM
LadyPolaris

No worries - it gives me something to look forward to for the thread.

ktani
May 15th, 2008, 11:06 PM
Pictures Post updated
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111734&postcount=642

Alley Cat
May 16th, 2008, 05:55 AM
I have completed my second treatment which was 1/4 cup of honey and 1 cup of conditioner , 2 tbls Ground Cinnamon [ all I had left] , 1 tbls EVOO. I left it on for 1.5 hours then had some fun washing it out. I thought it would just rinse out, I was surprised at the thick texture. :surprise: I ended up using some shampoo to get the stuff out. My hair feels a little coated so I may have not got it all out . :shrug:
I am not sure if my hair is any lighter. Oh well I will keep on trying and I think I will have to get a picture taken so I can compare. I have been slack at getting pictures taken lately. :)

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 06:26 AM
Alley Cat

The 2 biggest problems can be the honey itself not producing enough peroxide and the conditioner interfering with the honey lightening process by being too waxy and thick.

Your thick mix does not sound good.

I changed my recommendation on using straight conditioner as the only water part of the dilution a few pages ago based on some of the reported results.

I would start by adding water to the conditioner by half next time or switch to a different one and see how that goes - the mix is supposed to be runny.

You may still have gotten some lightening - I look forward to whatever pictures you can take.

kathrynrose in the original Honey thread, got 0 results with one conditioner and great results with another using the same honey - she was testing conditioners for their ability to hinder honey lightening.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 08:52 AM
Revisiting the research

".... honey (preferably 10 grams) ... with 4 times that amount of water at 20°C (68°F), .... generate hydrogen-peroxide ....

"10 g honey .... mix with 40 g (40 ml) distilled water .... without warming!!!"
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

I do not think that distilled water is necessary - the warming part I know - heat negatively affects honey.

The interesting part to me is the amount of honey.

The minimum amount of honey required for a honey lightening treatment, according to this, should IMO be 1/8th cup or 10 grams.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 09:04 AM
Since using tea - chamomile - was enough in 1 report to help buffer cinnamon irritation when the cinnamon was well mixed into the honey lightening recipe, I wonder if conditioner might be better off used to CO the recipe out after the treatment or just be used to condition the hair after washing the treatment out with shampoo.

Leaving conditioner out of a honey lightening recipe would increase the odds IMO, of getting the lightening desired and peroxide boosters can still be used.

The honey? A cheap, dark coloured honey blend is probably much easier to buy than trying to find a light conditioner that is the best choice - and honey lightening can be even less expensive with the option of no conditioner in the mix.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 09:55 AM
Revisiting the results

bizarrogirl's first recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 1/4 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner, 6 tblsp cinnamon.

Results on 2 henndigoes with multiple henna layers underneath - 8 hours

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2397912505/in/set-72157594199905645/


2nd recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 4 tblsp cinnamon, 1/2 c up water, 1/2 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner for 1 hour.

This time it lightened the henna layers - no burgundy colour.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2454335633/in/set-72157594199905645/


1/2 cup of water and 1/2 cup of conditioner will make for a very runny recipe in any case - the results though were even better in this report and others.
IMO, no conditioner at all in the recipe, just water or a herbal tea like Roman chamomile - German chamomile will do - would be the optimum choice.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 10:09 AM
Recommendations for the 4 parts water to 1 part honey lightening recipes, based on research and the latest reported results.


1. The minimum amount of honey to be used - 1/8 cup or 10 grams

2. No conditioner (it does not contribute to lightening, can contain problematic ingredients and a light conditioner when well diluted, reported to work better that way for honey lightening, will not provide much conditioning), just water or herbal tea - chamomile tea is a good choice because it counters irritation (unles you are allergic to it) and it may contribute to lightening.

3. Honey - use a dark coloured honey blend (it increases the odds of buying a honey that will produce more peroxide) - the cheapest is fine - pasteurizing does not affect a honey's ability to produce peroxide - the plant source determines the honey peroxide level. Do not buy mint or thyme honeys - they contain Vitamin C.

4. I recommend mellie's method of application - using a tint brush to apply the mix and pouring some of it over the hair at the end.

5. No sunlight, no external heat, no lemon or any Vitamin C content ingredient with the exception of cardamom - it has a higher peroxide value to compensate for its small Vitamin C level (UV, external heat, and Vitamin C can all negatively affect honey and lower the amount of peroxide of the recipe).

6. If you use cinnamon or cardamom as peroxide boosters, blend either one well into the recipe before you apply the honey lightening treatment to your hair, to help prevent scalp and skin irritation.

7. If you use extra virgin olive oil or coconut oil as a peroxide booster (EVOO has the highest oil peroxide level), start with about 1 to 1.5 tablespoons - oil can be difficult to wash out of the hair.

8. Make sure that the hair is well covered with plastic during the time that the honey lightening treatment is on the hair (I recommend pinning it up before covering), to provide a constant moisture level, needed to ensure that the honey continues to produce peroxide without interruption (if the treatment dries on the hair, the honey stops producing peroxide).

ETA
9. With the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, a recipe with the spice booster cinnamon, was reported to work even better than a previous recipe without the dilution and the 4 to 1 recipe contained 1/3 less cinnamon. When chamomile tea was used as the water in another recipe with cinnamon, no irritation was reported.

10. A possible method of removing the treatment is CO'ing or using conditioner only to wash it out of the hair. Honey residue can be removed with shampoo and or a weak white vinegar rinse - 1 tsp white vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds and rinsed out.

firebird
May 16th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Thanks ktani for your latest recommendations and making everything so clear :) I have tried diluting the honey just with water/tea before, it was much harder to apply than conditioner, but if it will give better results I'll try again. I did a treatment yesterday including cinnamon, mixed in well before I applied it to my hair. I think I added more than usual (I don't measure the cinnamon very accurately) and it was fine on my hair until I leant over to clean the shower and drips ran down my face, making it sting really bad and go bright red. It's fine now, but it just proves that even when you do mix it into the mixture before applying, it can still irritate the skin and it's always good to be careful, especially if using a 'drippier' mixture without conditioner!

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 03:30 PM
firebird

You make an excellent point. It is about spice amounts.

However, with the 4 to 1 water to honey dilution, you can use less cinnamon than you did previously.

bizarrogirl’s 2nd recipe, lightened the henna layers under her henndigo, in 1 hour as opposed to 8 hours, removing the burgundy colour they had and she used 1/3 less cinnamon.

I am going to edit in a 9th point. Thank you!

firebird
May 16th, 2008, 03:35 PM
Yes, I will definitely use less cinnamon! I will also try the cardamom instead, when I finally manage to get some :)

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 03:39 PM
firebird

Just double checking - in this last recipe - did you use conditioner in the mix?

If you did then conditioner did not protect your skin from irritation when it dripped. I think that chamomile tea and less cinnamon might be better for that.

I am pleased for you to read that the irritation was temporary.

firebird
May 16th, 2008, 03:54 PM
ktani, I did use conditioner in the mixture. It was 1 part honey, 2 conditioner and 2 water, with a little EVOO (about 1/2 tablespoon). I will use your suggestion of the camomile tea and less cinnamon next time, thank you!

LadyPolaris
May 16th, 2008, 03:56 PM
ktani!

Today the sky was heavily overcast, so this is not a good picture, but I promised I'd have one today, so here it is! :)

It's a pity I don't have a real before picture, but I swear, this 1st treatment did manage to lighten my hair a bit. When asked "what's different today about my hair?", everyone noticed that it looks slightly more orange and less burgundy than it did before! So, that's at least one henna layer off! I left this treatment in for 3 hours before washing it off.

I now realize I forgot to comb my hair before taking the picture! Eep. Well, at least you can see how wavy it got after this treatment - it's usually a 1b and it's looking like a 1c right now!


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn110/LadyPolaris/4da56c3f.jpg


I took notes of my camera settings (I always shoot on manual mode), time of day etc. so I can replicate the same conditions on my next photos.

Thank you again for the marvelous research you're conducting here! :)

GlennaGirl
May 16th, 2008, 03:57 PM
ktani, with no conditioner, will it be harder to get the honey out of the hair? Would this require shampooing after?

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 04:03 PM
LadyPolaris

Great news that the lightening is noticeable to others and it has worked to help remove that burgundy colour.

You have beautiful hair, even in less than perfect lighting.

Thank you so much for posting the picture - I just wish it had been sunny.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 04:05 PM
GlennaGirl

Diluted conditioner in a 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution IMO, would not do that much.

You can CO out the treatment if you prefer - I think that would be a more efficient use for conditioner.

Shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is the usual recommendation to deal with honey residue - it depends though on whether you get honey residue.

I think that with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, people will see less residue than before - but that will of course depend on how well one rinses and possibly the recipe - perhaps some honeys leave more residue than others..

GlennaGirl
May 16th, 2008, 04:14 PM
GlennaGirl

Diluted conditioner in a 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution IMO, would not do that much.

You can CO out the treatment if you prefer - I think that would be a more efficient use for conditioner.

Shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is the usual recommendation to deal with honey residue - it depends though on whether you get honey residue.

I think that with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, people will see less residue than before - but that will of course depend on how well one rinses and possibly the recipe - perhaps some honeys leave more residue than others..

Okay. Here I go, then! Honey, water and cinnamon.

LadyPolaris
May 16th, 2008, 04:14 PM
LadyPolaris

Great news that the lightening is noticeable to others and it has worked to help remove that burgundy colour.

You have beautiful hair, even in less than perfect lighting.

Thank you so much for posting the picture - I just wish it had been sunny.

Thank you so much, that's very kind of you to say! My hair looks horribly tangled in that picture, and the overcast sky doesn't help either - it looks dry, but you have to take my word for it, it's not! It's very soft and more shiny than usual. Would you like a photo with flash better than one with indirect natural light? I can take one right now even though it's already dark out. Or I can wait until tomorrow and see if I'll have stronger natural light. I don't get much direct sunlight here, so if a combination of natural light and/or flash would work, let me know!

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 04:20 PM
LadyPolaris

I think that it would be better to wait for the sunshine.

You hair does not look tangled or dry to me - that lighting though does not do justice to your hair.

It looks thick, healthy and beautiful.

I would rather see it in its full glory.

GlennaGirl
May 16th, 2008, 04:24 PM
LadyPolaris, I too think your hair is gorgeous. If only we could see ourselves as others see us!

ktani, I'm trying this now but I'm not sure how well it's going to work, simply because the mixture is basically like, well, water, and it doesn't "stick"--it "pours". I tied my ends up in Saran Wrap so they wouldn't get covered in mixture and then basically had to pour this on the rest of my head. I'm not sure if it's going to be even or if the running-down water is going to make it basically just go on farther down the hair.

But I'll let you know how it turns out...

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 04:25 PM
GlennaGirl

I recommended mellie's application method for a few reasons, one on which is that it gives one more control over the recipe application.

I think that you might want to consider using chamomile tea with the cinnamon.

I suggest this - put a towel around you neck and wear something thick under that.

You can apply the treatment to where you want it, then pour the rest over your hair if you wish although in your case, you want to avoid your ends.

ETA: Sorry, I missed the part about the saran wrapped ends. I think that the tint brush application method is perfect for you, since you want to avoid both your roots and ends - pouring the recipe over your hair is not a good idea but for others it can be done on the length only after one has carefully applied the recipe the roots with the tint brush - not soaking the scalp too much.

LadyPolaris
May 16th, 2008, 04:26 PM
ktani, thank you for your kindness! :) My next lightening treatment will be sometime in the next week, so if I have a sunny day until then I'll snap a better picture and post it here! (You'd think Rio, Brazil would be as sunny as it gets - but it's almost winter here, and the scorching sun is on vacation!)

GlennaGirl, that's so kind of you, it's a huge compliment to me, coming from someone with such gorgeous hair with blinding shine! :)

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 04:38 PM
The other nice thing about mellie's application method with a tint brush, is that one can apply the 4 to 1 dilution recipes as close or not to the scalp as one wants.

I think that it should be fine - the problem with the old dilutions is that while they were more of what one was used to - the results were not as as I have said, predictable or very, very slow for some people.

Both mellie and nayver used Mellie's Mix, whis is herbal tea and honey, no conditioner - mellie is used to applying it - it is her recipe.

It took nayver twice to get the hang of it - she managed beautifully though - I do not know how she applied it but it lightened her naturally black hair in only 1 hour, on the 2nd try, after lightening her faded hi-lights on the 1st try.

GlennaGirl
May 16th, 2008, 05:13 PM
A tint brush...hmm...Something I could get at Sally's? WalMart?

I'll check that out.

I'll be rinsing soon. :)

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 05:19 PM
GlennaGirl

The tint brush would allow you to concentrate the treatment on the centre of you hair - and avoid the roots and ends - it is just what you need, IMO.

mellie
May 16th, 2008, 08:48 PM
Ktani asked me to post how I use my Mellie's Mix (which doesn't have conditioner), so here goes:

****

Applying Mellie's Mix
Since my mix is a tea (chamomile and mullein) with honey added, it is very much a liquid. I apply it where I want it most with a tint brush (which you can find at Sally's Beauty Supply or probably CVS, etc.) until the hair is saturated. This allows me to concentrate on the places where I want it.

Option 1: Outside
It worked really nicely for me to sit outside in cool, low sun. You can bring your cup with your leftover mix and tint brush outside with you, and reapply during the hour.

Option 2: Inside
You can pour the leftover mix over your hair if you want and squeeze out. Then cover with a plastic bag and a towel and sit for an hour.

Rinse!
Then just rinse out. It will rinse out very easily if you have used a good tea ball and strained out any loose herb.

****

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 09:18 PM
Ktani asked me to post how I use my Mellie's Mix (which doesn't have conditioner), so here goes:

****

Applying Mellie's Mix
Since my mix is a tea (chamomile and mullein) with honey added, it is very much a liquid. I apply it where I want it most with a tint brush (which you can find at Sally's Beauty Supply or probably CVS, etc.) until the hair is saturated. This allows me to concentrate on the places where I want it.

Option 1: Outside
It worked really nicely for me to sit outside in cool, low sun. You can bring your cup with your leftover mix and tint brush outside with you, and reapply during the hour.

Option 2: Inside
You can pour the leftover mix over your hair if you want and squeeze out. Then cover with a plastic bag and a towel and sit for an hour.

Rinse!
Then just rinse out. It will rinse out very easily if you have used a good tea ball and strained out any loose herb.

****

mellie

Thank you so much for posting this.

I do though have a problem with option 1.

Even though low afternoon sun is weak - I do not recommend UV exposure during the treatment.

And while both you and firebird don't always cover your hair and keep spraying water on your hair to keep the treatment moist, I think that uninterrrupted moisture and body heat (which is relatively minimal in terms of heat) benefit the honey lightening treatment's performance.

blackfrostqueen
May 16th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Just wanted to give an interesting update of what I've found happening to my own hair. I've been doing honey treatments to lighten the line between my new growth and year old chemically dyed hair. And from what I found today after my latest honey treatment is that the honey is eating through (is my only way to describe it) my chemically dye hair. well, not really the hair itself, but the dye job. It seems to be "stripping" off the first layer of dye to reveal the dyed color beneath it.

Sorry if that sounds weird or is hard to understand. What I am meaning is the honey seems to be taking off the brown (now light brown/dark blonde) hair dye to be revealing the red hair dye (the color I tried covering with the brown) beneath it.

I'd show pictures of what I mean, but my camera isn't picking up the change. And I know I'm not imagining it, because my mom was the one that first noticed it. The line between my natural hair and the dye hair was a very visible blonde line. And now its red!

I didn't think chemical dyes could be "stripped" in layers.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 09:37 PM
Just wanted to give an interesting update of what I've found happening to my own hair. I've been doing honey treatments to lighten the line between my new growth and year old chemically dyed hair. And from what I found today after my latest honey treatment is that the honey is eating through (is my only way to describe it) my chemically dye hair. well, not really the hair itself, but the dye job. It seems to be "stripping" off the first layer of dye to reveal the dyed color beneath it.

Sorry if that sounds weird or is hard to understand. What I am meaning is the honey seems to be taking off the brown (now light brown/dark blonde) hair dye to be revealing the red hair dye (the color I tried covering with the brown) beneath it.

I'd show pictures of what I mean, but my camera isn't picking up the change. And I know I'm not imagining it, because my mom was the one that first noticed it. The line between my natural hair and the dye hair was a very visible blonde line. And now its red!

I didn't think chemical dyes could be "stripped" in layers.

blackfrostqueen

Thank you for the very colourful analogy, lol.

I am glad that the the honey lightening is working so well for you.

How is the condition of your hair?

Toothless version please, lol.

blackfrostqueen
May 16th, 2008, 09:42 PM
blackfrostqueen

Thank you for the very colourful analogy, lol.

I am glad that the the honey lightening is working so well for you.

How is the condition of your hair?

Toothless version please, lol.

The condition is pretty good. The old chemically dye part is damaged, but that was that way before the honey. I've been doing conditioning treatments to help soft the length up.

I am however trying to watch the condition to make sure that the honey isn't actually stripping the hair, causing it to become thinner or even more fragile than it already is.

I just find it crazy that the red is poking through.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 09:45 PM
blackfrostqueen

I appreciate you monitoring your hair.

I am monitoring the reports on results.

Is your hair weaker or more damaged since doing honey lightening?

blackfrostqueen
May 16th, 2008, 09:51 PM
No, ktani, not that I have noticed. No damage or weakening. Honey is a little drying, but nothing a good conditioning can't fix.

I am also using honey on my natural/new growth hair to watch and see the changes in that as well. And neither there have I seen any damage or weakening. Just the obvious paling of color. :)

DolphinPrincess
May 16th, 2008, 10:03 PM
So I ended up doing a honey treatment last night.

1/4 c honey
1 c Suave Vanilla Floral Condish (was going to use half condish and half water, but it seemed pretty liquid as it was)
1.5 T EVOO
small blob coconut oil, less than one T
2 T cardamom
2 T cinnamon

I mixed it really well, then applied to freshly shampooed, towel dried hair. Ended up leaving it on for about 2 hours. (My kiddos decided mommy couldn't get in the shower) Today my hair is slightly weird feeling, not in an unhealthy way, but like maybe I didn't get it all out. Btw, I had no skin reaction this time. I think, when I did have the reaction, that maybe it wasn't mixed well or something.

Oh, almost forgot the most important part, there seems to be a bit of a color change!! Not much, and probably not noticable to anyone else, but its there! I hope to get a picture later this week, when its not greasy and icky. Maybe I'll get in another treatment tomorrow, without the EVOO, I really don't think it does much good for my hair. And, I'll follow through with the half water and half condish.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 10:04 PM
blackfrostqueen

Thank you for letting me know.

I think that it is important to know about how honey lightening affects damaged hair as well as healthy hair.

The fact that your damaged hair is not worse is excellent, IMO.

I am very pleased for you - it means that you do not have to trim your hair until you are ready.

The dryness from honey lightening is probably residue.

A weak vinegar rinse (1 tsp white vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds and rinsed out) should help that followed by deep conditioning your fragile ends.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 10:39 PM
So I ended up doing a honey treatment last night.



1/4 c honey
1 c Suave Vanilla Floral Condish (was going to use half condish and half water, but it seemed pretty liquid as it was)
1.5 T EVOO
small blob coconut oil, less than one T
2 T cardamom
2 T cinnamon


I mixed it really well, then applied to freshly shampooed, towel dried hair. Ended up leaving it on for about 2 hours. (My kiddos decided mommy couldn't get in the shower) Today my hair is slightly weird feeling, not in an unhealthy way, but like maybe I didn't get it all out. Btw, I had no skin reaction this time. I think, when I did have the reaction, that maybe it wasn't mixed well or something.



Oh, almost forgot the most important part, there seems to be a bit of a color change!! Not much, and probably not noticable to anyone else, but its there! I hope to get a picture later this week, when its not greasy and icky. Maybe I'll get in another treatment tomorrow, without the EVOO, I really don't think it does much good for my hair. And, I'll follow through with the half water and half condish.


DolphinPrincess

I am very pleased to read that you are finally getting to see some colour change.

I know that in my previous recommendations, I said to use conditioner as part or the whole of the water for the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution.

However, having revisited both the research and the reports on results, I now believe that no conditioner is the way to go for optimum lightening.

I half expect a Honey thread revolution because of this but I really think that just water or herbal tea like Mellie's Mix or just chamomile tea is preferable to using any conditioner in any of the honey lightening mixes.

I am glad to read that the cinnmon/cardamom mix worked without irritation and the spice amount in total is less than what you used before - yet this time you are seeing results and a colour difference.

I think that for you - chamomile tea and the same spice mix or just cardamom mixed in with honey will work even better.

Thanks to mellie and her tint brush method for applying a completely liquid honey lightening treatment, it shoud be easier to apply the mixes.

When I looked at the difference between bizarrogirl's first and second results - and the difference in lightening with the 4 to 1 dilution, using 1/3 less cinnamon amd only half water half conditioner for 1 hour, I realized that the next step up was no conditioner at all.

Mellie's Mix has given consistent results, even with no peroxide boosters. It lightened henndigo and multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna and there has never been conditioner in it.

All of that led to my new recommendations.

I did not just decide to write them on a whim to get all of you surprised.

The indications are that this will work better, in addition to the other recommendations that I made.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Recommendations for the 4 parts water to 1 part honey lightening recipes, based on research and the latest reported results.


1. The minimum amount of honey to be used - 1/8 cup or 10 grams

2. No conditioner (it does not contribute to lightening, can contain problematic ingredients and a light conditioner when well diluted, reported to work better that way for honey lightening, will not provide much conditioning), just water or herbal tea - chamomile tea is a good choice because it counters irritation (unles you are allergic to it) and it may contribute to lightening.

3. Honey - use a dark coloured honey blend (it increases the odds of buying a honey that will produce more peroxide) - the cheapest is fine - pasteurizing does not affect a honey's ability to produce peroxide - the plant source determines the honey peroxide level. Do not buy mint or thyme honeys - they contain Vitamin C.

4. I recommend mellie's method of application - using a tint brush to apply the mix and pouring some of it over the hair at the end.

5. No sunlight, no external heat, no lemon or any Vitamin C content ingredient with the exception of cardamom - it has a higher peroxide value to compensate for its small Vitamin C level (UV, external heat, and Vitamin C can all negatively affect honey and lower the amount of peroxide of the recipe).

6. If you use cinnamon or cardamom as peroxide boosters, blend either one well into the recipe before you apply the honey lightening treatment to your hair, to help prevent scalp and skin irritation.

7. If you use extra virgin olive oil or coconut oil as a peroxide booster (EVOO has the highest oil peroxide level), start with about 1 to 1.5 tablespoons - oil can be difficult to wash out of the hair.

8. Make sure that the hair is well covered with plastic during the time that the honey lightening treatment is on the hair (I recommend pinning it up before covering), to provide a constant moisture level, needed to ensure that the honey continues to produce peroxide without interruption (if the treatment dries on the hair, the honey stops producing peroxide).

ETA
9. With the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, a recipe with the spice booster cinnamon, was reported to work even better than a previous recipe without the dilution and the 4 to 1 recipe contained 1/3 less cinnamon. When chamomile tea was used as the water in another recipe with cinnamon, no irritation was reported.

10. A possible method of removing the treatment is CO'ing or using conditioner only to wash it out of the hair. Honey residue can be removed with shampoo and or a weak white vinegar rinse - 1 tsp white vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds and rinsed out.

Here they are again.

DolphinPrincess
May 16th, 2008, 10:57 PM
Thanks ktani! It's just that, with small children, a mix that is too drippy or runny is very difficult. I can try to time it with naps, but even then, it is quite a pain.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 11:07 PM
DolphinPrincess

I understand the difficulty.

However, by using the tint brush method it should be easier.

When I used to do bagged catnip tea treatments out of the shower, I used to wear a towel around my neck to catch drips.

That made it easier. I really think that with the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution, only 1 hour is enough for each treatnent.

That should help lighten the load - pun intended.

DolphinPrincess
May 16th, 2008, 11:12 PM
Haha, okay, i'll try it! I have some chamomile tea in the cupboard (German, i think, not Roman) That I'll try out tomorrow. I don't have a tint brush, but i have a squirt bottle (think water bottle) that i'll try.

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 11:16 PM
DolphinPrincess

I think that a tint brush is better than a squirt bottle because it allows more precision and means that you will not be soaking your scalp unnecessarily.

IMO, it is worth the wait, if you have to buy one.

DolphinPrincess
May 16th, 2008, 11:27 PM
Hmmm... I might have to swing by the beauty supply store on my way home from work, if I remember! I work the graveyard shift, so I definitely can't guarantee anything!! :D

ktani
May 16th, 2008, 11:30 PM
DolphinPrincess

It is completely up to you.

I am going by mellie's reports and consistent, excellent results.

Alley Cat
May 17th, 2008, 12:05 AM
Alley Cat

The 2 biggest problems can be the honey itself not producing enough peroxide and the conditioner interfering with the honey lightening process by being too waxy and thick.

Your thick mix does not sound good.

I changed my recommendation on using straight conditioner as the only water part of the dilution a few pages ago based on some of the reported results.

I would start by adding water to the conditioner by half next time or switch to a different one and see how that goes - the mix is supposed to be runny.

You may still have gotten some lightening - I look forward to whatever pictures you can take.

kathrynrose in the original Honey thread, got 0 results with one conditioner and great results with another using the same honey - she was testing conditioners for their ability to hinder honey lightening.
Thank you for that. :)
I know you are recommending water or chamomile tea from the posts from here I do have reservations myself. Glenna Girl posted I think about it doesn't stick but pours that was what I was thinking myself. :shrug: Still if others have had results who am I to argue. I did try a tint brush myself but found it wasn't going on well the squirt bottle actually sounds like a good idea to me. Tint brushes don't get mixture well into my length. Just an observation for myself.:shrug:

ktani
May 17th, 2008, 05:38 AM
Alley Cat

The tint brush I think is perfect for certain areas - mellie pours some of the treatment over the hair as well but if you are more comfortable with a squirt bottle - use that too.

I am not trying to dictate - just recommend, based on the results and research.

In DolphinPrincess's case her sensitivity to cinnamon is my first concern, given the reaction to it that she had.

I believe that for her - the tint brush is less risky for her scalp and is the method that mellie has used with such consistent success.

Have another look at mellie's results on henndigoed hair and nayver's results on naturally black hair with Mellie's Mix - which has 0 peroxide boosters and no conditioner.

And bizarrogirl's results too - see what can be done when conditioner is reduced by 1/2.

I think that 0 conditioner is even better. Now, think of the possibilities with peroxide boosters.

I put the Pictures Post together to have a visual record to follow.

ktani
May 17th, 2008, 09:12 AM
I am going to break this down another way for those of you who are still anxious about the new recommendation of no conditioner for the 4 parts water or herbal tea to 1 part honey dilution, for honey lightening recipes.

The old dilution ratios, starting with the basic recipe - 2 parts conditioner to 1 part honey were less drippy alright but they were also responsible for some, though certainly not all, reported results that can only be described as very g r a d u a l, took hours for each treatment - between 1 and 8 and in some cases required many treatments, especially on hennaed or henndigoed hair, to get desired results.

Knowing what I do now, you are trading this.

Less drips, more hours - reported results that could be slow or with the wrong conditioner and or the wrong honey - 0.

For this

More drips, only 1 hour at a time, reported results that far exceed previous results in terms of lightening and potentially far fewer treatments to get your desired results, especially on hennaed or henndigoed hair.

Even with a light conditioner, well diluted, I think results are being limited.

Yes, the honey can still be a problem - but it is the only main factor that you will have to deal with now and it should be an easy fix - try a different but cheap honey.

flapjack
May 17th, 2008, 11:46 AM
Okay, I have some photos. Hopefully this worked with the lighting, I tried really hard to make it identical.

This first set is from about 6 weeks ago. My hair is a few inches longer here, I got a trim to even up some layers. (frown!)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/blub.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/flub.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/tlub.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/glub.jpg


And these are from this morning. A few inches shorter and the bottom 3-4 inches were just oiled because my hair was being lame this morning and trying to tangle on me. So ignore the slight greasy appearance at the ends.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair7.jpg



As you can see, my hair is really fickle and even in the same lighting, with completely dry and brushed out hair, it shows up different shades at different angles. There is nothing I can do about it. :/ Personally, I would say that overall, from more than 10 feet away, the difference is nill. But when looking up close, there are many many many more gold and copper strands than before, so if anything, my hair looks more "multicolored" than it did before. Which I do like. And my original intent of making the roots a bit lighter to match the ends a little better, rather than be ten shades darker due to winter, is accomplished. I might do this a couple more times on the roots, but that will be it. I don't want to lose my red tones, which could easily turn to blonde if I'm not careful.


/hair ramblings!

ktani
May 17th, 2008, 12:42 PM
flapjack

Thank you for your pictures.

This before
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/flub.jpg

complared to this after - the after shows more of a hi-lighted effect - I can see the change.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/hair5.jpg

I retreived your original post with your recipe - nicely done on the highlights! I think that if you use the 4 to 1 dilution, you will see the result you want faster.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111015&postcount=616

You have gorgeous hair!

Bunnyears
May 17th, 2008, 11:06 PM
Hi all!
I am trying to do the honey treatment right now on my head:

2 oz honey
4 parts water
1/2 tbsp cinnamon
dash of olive oil

It came out very watery and I had trouble putting it in my hair especially on the roots. I have highlighted hair, but my light brown roots are 2 inches right now. First of all, even though I applied on very wet hair it's already drying up! I put on a plastic cap, but it made my head warm up, so I took it off... in fact my hair scalp feels pretty warm and I think it's going to warm up the hair:( That will inactivate the peroxide? So how can you put honey dilution on the scalp without having it warm up?

Thanks:)

Alley Cat
May 17th, 2008, 11:16 PM
Alley Cat

The tint brush I think is perfect for certain areas - mellie pours some of the treatment over the hair as well but if you are more comfortable with a squirt bottle - use that too.

I am not trying to dictate - just recommend, based on the results and research.

In DolphinPrincess's case her sensitivity to cinnamon is my first concern, given the reaction to it that she had.

I believe that for her - the tint brush is less risky for her scalp and is the method that mellie has used with such consistent success.

Have another look at mellie's results on henndigoed hair and nayver's results on naturally black hair with Mellie's Mix - which has 0 peroxide boosters and no conditioner.

And bizarrogirl's results too - see what can be done when conditioner is reduced by 1/2.

I think that 0 conditioner is even better. Now, think of the possibilities with peroxide boosters.

I put the Pictures Post together to have a visual record to follow.

Thank you I know your not trying to dictate sorry if I offended you .:flower:
You are very helpful to everyone on this thread including myself , thank you for all of your help. :flowers:

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 04:54 AM
Hi all!
I am trying to do the honey treatment right now on my head:

2 oz honey
4 parts water
1/2 tbsp cinnamon
dash of olive oil

It came out very watery and I had trouble putting it in my hair especially on the roots. I have highlighted hair, but my light brown roots are 2 inches right now. First of all, even though I applied on very wet hair it's already drying up! I put on a plastic cap, but it made my head warm up, so I took it off... in fact my hair scalp feels pretty warm and I think it's going to warm up the hair:( That will inactivate the peroxide? So how can you put honey dilution on the scalp without having it warm up?

Thanks:)

Bunnyears

It is supposed to be watery - that is the idea - your recipe is fine. It will take getting used to applying it - I think though that you will be pleased with the results.

Body heat has not ever been reported to adversely affect the honey - and covering your hair is important for this to work - no worries - the treatment must be kept moist throughout the hour - constant moisture is preferable IMO, to constantly rewetting it.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 04:57 AM
Alley Cat

You did not offend me in the least.

I do not know why I chose to phase what I said that way.

You have never been less than very gracious and kind - no worries.

And thank you for your kind words.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 05:21 AM
Ok, lets look at the 2 methods that have been used for applying honey lightening treatments.

Both firebird and mellie have previously opted for leaving the treatment uncovered, sprayed it with water while on the hair, to keep it moist and both have had reported successful results doing that.

I think that for firebird, less mosture would have evaportated as quicky, with conditioner in the mix.

However, mellie's first result on her Rainbow Dark Brown Henna layers was less successful than her 2nd treatment, which she kept covered. Was that first result because of the number of henna layers on her hair or evaporation or both?

Evaporation will IMO, happen pretty fast with just water or tea as the base of the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution and the honey will slow its production of peroxide as this happens.

Body heat has not prevented excellent results from being reported in any honey lightening treatment in the past as far as I know.

I still believe that body heat - through covering the treatment while it is on the hair - is preferable to leaving the treatment uncovered and constantly misting it, to maintain the treatment moisture level.

It will be less messy for one thing and you will not be fighting to equalize the moisture level vs the natural evaporation rate of the water in the mix.

The treatment should only need 1 hour on the hair with a constnt, uninterrupted moisture content.

flapjack
May 18th, 2008, 05:50 AM
I found before photos in the sunlight. They are from 2006 and part of a series of ballet themed photos so I apologize for the dorky leotard, haha. I know they're not the best quality in the universe for hair purposes but it's all I have been able to find that is in direct sunlight and shows a good chunk of hair.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/ballet1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/ballet2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/theironflapjack/ballet05/ballet.jpg

After pictures in sunlight will be tomorrow or Monday.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 05:53 AM
flapjack

Thank you so much for the new pictures - nice ballet point.

I think that the first picture will serve as a good before shot.

Alley Cat
May 18th, 2008, 06:20 AM
Alley Cat

You did not offend me in the least.

I do not know why I chose to phase what I said that way.

You have never been less than very gracious and kind - no worries.

And thank you for your kind words.
Thank you, and your welcome :flowers:

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 06:37 AM
Alley Cat

I am glad that has been cleared up - I was probably anticipating the revolution I spoke of - regarding no conditioner, lol.

It was certainly nothing you said.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 06:47 AM
Leaving no stone unturned for honey research, I went back to one of my first research sources on honey for treating wounds.

The wording quoted is from 2 different sections of text.

"Honey has a well established usage as a wound dressing ....

.... topical antibacterial agent for the treatment of wounds ....

.... major antibacterial activity in honey has been found to be due to hydrogen peroxide ....

.... dressings can be removed painlessly and without causing damage to re-growing tissue ...."
http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/honey_intro.shtml#Hydrogen


As you can see from this reference, when honey is used on a wound, the wound is then covered, to keep the honey in place.

Body heat therefore does not negatively or adversely affect the peroxide in honey and keep it from helping to disinfect and heal wounds.

Body heat should therefore also not adversely affect a honey lightning treatment through keeping the hair covered - and has never been reported to do so.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 07:06 AM
An interesting bit of information from this source

"Substantial amounts of honey .... applied to a wound to achieve adequate potency."
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

My recommendation for the 4 parts honey to 1 part water is based on meauring a honey for its peroxide value.

The honey will produce its maximum peroxide value in 1 hour with that dilution.

An open wound is constantly producing fluid (until it heals), that will dilute the honey well.

Hair, even though it might be wet when a honey lightening treatment is applied, does not produce fluid.

Honey only produces hydrogen peroxide when it is diluted.

I do not believe that if a large amount of honey were to be applied to wet hair and then covered - that the amount of peroxide produced would be sufficient to lighten the hair very much but the information is intruiging.

There was a report recently where just undiluted honey and oil was applied to dry hair and then covered with 2 shower caps.

The hair was reported to lighten somewhat - I do not doubt that it was the result of condensation from perspiration, from keeping the hair covered, and that the persperation and condensation diluted the honey just enough to produce the reported result.

The report - I forgot that Anlbe also heated the treatment - obviously not enough to affect the honey (I do not think olive oil alone could produce that lightening effect) - heating a honey lightening treatment is also not recommended.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=96190&postcount=493

I think that the honey needs to be diluted well before it is applied to the hair for any significant lightening to occur.

morgwn
May 18th, 2008, 10:53 AM
Ktani, one thing about honey's lightening qualities perplexes me. I remember reading that one can destroy the H2O2 parts of honey through immense heating/microwaving if it's just wanted for its moisturising qualities. So, therefore, why is it that we do not have to use unpasteurised honey to get the full 'kick' of its lightening abilities? Wouldn't pasteurisation also destroy the hydrogen peroxide in honey?

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 11:02 AM
morgwn

You are correct - microwaving honey destroys the enzyme in honey that produces the peroxide - over 10 seconds - under 1 minute.

And heat sterization can too.

It is about the degree of heat and the duration or time applied.

Pasteurization does not use too high a heat for long enough to destry the enzyme in question.

If it did then there would not be successful results reported for honey lightening with cheap grocery store honey and there are more succesful results reported with that kind of honey than there have been with raw honey.

morgwn
May 18th, 2008, 11:29 AM
It is about the degree of heat and the duration or time applied.

Pasteurization does not use too high a heat for long enough to destry the enzyme in question.

Thanks for your quick reply, ktani. That makes so much more sense now. I am aware that the grocery-store honey works, I just wasn't sure HOW it could.

On another note, I've become a cassia user again (I love the softness and shine!) but I want to see if I can keep my hair from going darker or even lighten it a smidge more. So for my next cassia treatment I think I'll use firebird's recipe w/ honey, cinnamon and EVOO. Also, although I do realise that others have found the honey's lightening abilities to work in one hour, I would have thought that the cassia needs the two hours that firebird gave it to work its wonders. (All of the henna/cassia websites that I've read have the cassia mixtures sit for 1-2 hours prior to application and then 2-3 hours on the hair.)

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 11:45 AM
morgwn

That is just it - the keys to cassia obovata not depositing colour are - from firebird's new results, following my recommendations based on research of cassia and chrysophanic acid.

1. Use no acid to mix the cassia like orange juice - just water.

2. Do not let it sit to dye release if you want to use it for conditioning only in a honey lightening recipe - mix the cassia with water first, add it in and use the honey lightening treatment right away.

3. It is a honey lightening treatment with cassia - not a cassia treatment - do not use as much cassia as you would for a separate cassia treatment - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution should still allow only 1 hour to be needed for lightening.

morgwn
May 18th, 2008, 12:20 PM
3. It is a honey lightening treatment with cassia - not a cassia treatment - do not use as much cassia as you would for a separate cassia treatment - the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution should still allow only 1 hour to be needed for lightening.

So just to make sure I'm getting it right, this recipe from firebird does still allow the hair to receive the benefits of cassia (i.e. the thickening, softness and shine), but also allows the honey to lighten the hair? Or to get the full benefits of cassia and honey does one still have to do them separately?

I also found a recipe on a cassia site that uses honey and is stated to be for blondes. Is the honey's purpose herein for slight lightening or solely moisturising?

Cassia Obovata and Honey Blend Recipe

* Take 50% [of typical amount of] cassia obovata in a bowl
* Brew a strong chamomile tea, about 4 tea bags to 1 cup. Allow to cool and take tea bags out or strain.
* Use your warm liquid and add it to your cassia slowly a bit at a time as you want your mixture to remain rather muddy.
* Allow to sit for about 1-2 hours.
* Then slowly add your honey (I used unpasteurized) and mix together well. Keep your mixture to a nice smooth yoghurt-thick consistency.
* Then apply on your hair (damp/towel dry hair always works best), and wrap well. Let that sit on your hair at least 2-3 hours.
* Then wash out really well and get every last bit out. Then you may moisturize your hair with hair oil, or a leave-in conditoner.

ktani
May 18th, 2008, 12:32 PM
So just to make sure I'm getting it right, this recipe from firebird does still allow the hair to receive the benefits of cassia (i.e. the thickening, softness and shine), but also allows the honey to lighten the hair? Or to get the full benefits of cassia and honey does one still have to do them separately?

I also found a recipe on a cassia site that uses honey and is stated to be for blondes. Is the honey's purpose herein for slight lightening or solely moisturising?

Cassia Obovata and Honey Blend Recipe

* Take 50% [of typical amount of] cassia obovata in a bowl
* Brew a strong chamomile tea, about 4 tea bags to 1 cup. Allow to cool and take tea bags out or strain.
* Use your warm liquid and add it to your cassia slowly a bit at a time as you want your mixture to remain rather muddy.
* Allow to sit for about 1-2 hours.
* Then slowly add your honey (I used unpasteurized) and mix together well. Keep your mixture to a nice smooth yoghurt-thick consistency.
* Then apply on your hair (damp/towel dry hair always works best), and wrap well. Let that sit on your hair at least 2-3 hours.
* Then wash out really well and get every last bit out. Then you may moisturize your hair with hair oil, or a leave-in conditoner.

morgwn

That recipe you found is likely to dye release IMO - the mix is allowed to sit and both the honey and chamoile tea are acidic.

The pH of honey varies from 3.2 to 6 and that is not something I think you want to gamble with unless you want colour from the cassia - the chrysophanic acid in cassia yields different colours in different acid solutions - anything from yellow to yellow/orange to gold to red.

firebird was doing 2 separate treatments - a cassia treatment and a honey lightening treatment.

I suggested blending the 2 and to avoid any cassia colour - unlike her previous cassia mixes with orange juice followed by undiluted honey and EVOO 1 hour later, after the cassa had been sitting during that time, to do what I posted for you.

It worked - she got the extra conditioning, lighter hair and no colour from the cassia.

firebird used only 25 grams of cassia in that honey lightening treatment.

firebird's recipe, results and before and after pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

She let the treatment stay on her hair for 2 hours because 1 hour still makes her a little anxious for the 4 parts water to 1 part honey dilution.

I think that 1 hour for the mix she used, the way she used it is sufficient.