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mellie
April 11th, 2008, 11:42 AM
Re: mullein; I added it because my herb book said it has "brightening" properties.

P.S. I tried a chamomile/honey/cinnamon treatment last weekend, and although it left a wonderful smell, it didn't lighten for me.

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 12:16 PM
Yes it curdled with no heat. I made my mixture and everything was going fine then I decided to add a bit more conditioner and suddenly it curdled - I guess I tipped the acid balance...

I'll try the honey on roots thing next week ( I only wash my hair once every 7-10 days in the winter) and see what that does, I don't want to stress out the highlighted section of my hair, its already been through so much.

Anlbe

Thank you for the clarification.

I was wrong in my understanding of curdling. "The increased acidity causes the milk proteins ... to tangle into solid masses, or "curds"."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curd

I should have looked it up first. So it is not the heating of an SMT that causes the mix to curdle.

Honey lightening treatments have not been reported to stress out or damage hair - hi-lighted or otherwise - with the exception of one report and the interpretation of the effect, referred to in that report as "fried" ends - that followed the treatment. That result, I believe, was caused by residue - the hair was being washed at the time and after the treatment, with WO (water only).

The hair was not lightened in that report. That is why I do not believe that the peroxide of the honey used was the cause of that result. The mix was not drippy - leading me to also believe that the honey was not diluted well enough to produce very much peroxide. The plant source may not have allowed the honey to produce much peroxide in any case.

The conditioner used may have contained ingredients that did not allow any peroxide produced by the honey to have an effect. Certain thicker conditioners have been reported not to work well with a honey, that has been reported to lighten hair, when used with other conditioners.

The result described as crunchy or dry ends has been reported following honey lightening treatments but the result has not been reported as damage. The issue has been resolved by washing the hair with shampoo or using a vinegar rinse following the treatment. Honey can leave a residue on the hair.

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 12:30 PM
mellie

In the original recipes on a cinnamon lightening treatment that I read - it was just cinnamon and conditioner - the conditioner helping the cinnamon to adhere better to the hair.

Perhaps in a diluted honey herb mix, the cinnamon does not adhere to the hair well - just a guess - although with honey being sticky even when diluted it is hard to know.

firebird's first honey cinnamon recipe had the added booster EVOO, as well as conditioner in the mix.

Cinnamon and conditioner only has been reported to lighten slowly as can honey and conditioner only.

Honey can also lighten hair gradually with other additives - results do vary.

firebird
April 11th, 2008, 05:12 PM
This is the result of my honey/cinnamon/conditioner treatment today. I left it on for 5 hours. I'm reposting my previous picture to allow easier comparison of before and after, I hope that's ok.


Why can't I get it to lie nicely in pictures? :P This time, I put the mixture mainly on my darker, new growth (about above my ears?) as I'm trying to get this to blend better with the lighter, dyed hair I'm growing out. This mixture had no EVOO, but only because I ran out last night. I think I got more lightening with the EVOO added, though now I don't think the EVOO benefited the condition of my hair - now it feels just as soft and moisturised but without the residual oiliness from the EVOO. The cinnamon seemed to stick pretty well, I mixed everything in a bowl first and it was definitely still on my hair when I rinsed as it felt 'gritty' and I needed to rinse more than usual to get rid of it. I'm really happy with the continued lightening and how my hair is looking less obviously two-toned:)

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 05:41 PM
firebird

Of course it is ok to repost your pictures - I have reposted them 2 times already because the thread is now 26 pages long lol, and because the results with your first honey cinnamon recipe were really amazing, as I have said.

Thank you so much for the feedback and pictures of the new results. Your hair looks even more amazing - much more blended and it looks just fine to me in terms of how it is arranged.

I am also glad to read that the condition of your hair is just as good this time but without the oiliness - a bonus.

I agree that EVOO can be messy and leave an oily residue - that is why I recommend not using too much of it or any oil in a recipe - last time you used about 20% - as you said yourself - it was too much - you could still add a bit.

However it does not look as though you need to - it is just an option. You could add another spice instead or try a bit of coconut oil - it may not be as greasy - if you want a 2nd booster in the recipe.

firebird
April 11th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Thank you ktani :) I'm going to continue with the honey treatments of just the new growth. Coconut oil sounds a good idea if it's less greasy, I would also like to experiment with it for oiling my ends, so it sounds like that'll be my next hair-purchase!

ktani
April 11th, 2008, 06:47 PM
firebird

It is the coconut oil in coconut cream and milk that has a peroxide value. Going by the results in the link below, I think that it will be much easier to buy coconut oil for a honey lightening recipe than either coconut cream or milk. I will recommend coconut oil instead in the future.

The peroxide value of coconut oils can vary and would not be has high as that of EVOO, but I have no doubt that EVOO peroxide values vary too.

Coconut oil was reported to work very well here - you do not need to use as much oil as there is in this recipe - use much much less IMO, to begin with.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=53395&postcount=215

ktani
April 12th, 2008, 07:12 AM
I once thought home testing honey for its peroxide value was not necessary - that most honey purchased would yield enough peroxide for experimenting with honey lightening treatments, even with the 15% chance of buying a honey that would yield too little peroxide to be effective.

As I have said, there are many honeys on the market that produce enough peroxide IMO, to do just that.

However, with the information below to help, I now think that it is an option.

How to test honey for its peroxide value.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

Where to buy peroxide test strips - you only need the ones for testing food, IMO.
http://www.hydroponicsearch.com/cgi-bin/hydroponics/search/keywords-peroxide%20test%20strips (http://www.hydroponicsearch.com/cgi-bin/hydroponics/search/keywords-peroxide%20test%20strips)


I think the information here helps put the subject in perspective.

Effective peroxide values of honey - tests done for antibacterial applications.
To give you an idea, Canadian honeys tested produced a peroxide value of 15 mg per gram - EVOO can produce a value of up to 20 meq/kg.
http://c-bisqt.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=5136

Peroxide values of vegetable and olive oils - See "Peroxide value"
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm

POV - Peroxide value of cinnamon and other spices
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

ktani
April 12th, 2008, 01:14 PM
I am going to re-post my honey photos since they were lost in the last honey thread.

Here's my before and after:

http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/beforeamla.jpg

After one treatment:
http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/honeylemon.jpg

After another one:
http://portlandviolin.bizland.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/honey4.jpg

My recipe (Mellie's Mix):
chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon

Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out.

I checked with mellie - these results were on henndigoed hair.

Mellie later posted that the chamomile used was Roman chamomile - Anthemis nobilis.

GlennaGirl
April 12th, 2008, 04:47 PM
OMG. Ktani, once again, thank you. I'm going to try these ideas. What a gorgeous difference on Mellie's hair (hi, Mellie! I'm a Meli too).

Thank you so, so much for all your work on this, ktani. I'm not gonna chop after all. :) Even if I can't get it all one color, someone mentioned in my post above to perhaps re-henna just to darken the top a tiny smidge and make it all blend better, and someone else mentioned indigo streaks to blend...I'll consider both of those and in the meantime I may try Mellie's Mix if I can find some coconut oil.

ktani
April 12th, 2008, 05:02 PM
GlennaGirl

You are most welcome but the credit really goes to Mellie and the others for their recipes.

Mellie's Mix does not contain coconut oil - Javadandy's recipe does - both recipes worked on henndigoed hair - and there is Viviane's coconut cream and honey recipe - reported to work on henndigoed hair even better than the honey tomato recipe she created - you can use coconut oil instead of coconut cream for that one - there is hope.

ETA: I think the post you were referring to is in your thread - I posted there too - it can be confusing, lol.

ktani
April 12th, 2008, 10:12 PM
The 3 honey lightening recipes reported to work well on henndigoed hair. Each recipe has different ingredients and proportions.


Viviane's recipe - text taken from the Honey Article, currently in sections, in this thread.
"The Recipe: equal parts of coconut cream, honey and silicone free conditioner
The Method: Mix and apply to wet hair, cover with a plastic bag or wrap or shower cap, and leave on the hair for a minimum of 1 hour, rinse, shampoo and condition if desired.
The conditioner can be left out of the recipe if desired, or a preferred conditioner is hard to obtain, and water added to ensure that there is enough moisture to dilute the honey.
In this recipe, the coconut cream provides a peroxide boost."
Coconut oil can be substituted for the coconut cream - it is the part of the coconut cream that has the peroxide value.
View pictures here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38


Javadandy's recipe
"I tried a honey, conditioner and coconut oil treatment on the hair. About 50/20/30. It was a little runny, I used a cheapy rosemary conditioner I bought a while back from Sam's Club."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=53395&postcount=215


Mellie's Mix
"chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon
Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out."
Note: mellie later confirmed, that the species of chamomile she used was Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), and that these results were on henndigoed hair.
View pictures here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

I think it is very interesting to read that for mellie, clover honey did not work for her but alfalfa honey did. It reinforces the issue of the plant source determining the peroxide value of honey, to me.

DolphinPrincess
April 13th, 2008, 11:49 AM
I just need to post a warning to anyone who is using or plans on using spices in their lightening recipes. Even if you have had no reaction to previous recipes, be sure to patch test every time! I have used several different mixes that contained cinnamon, nutmeg, and cardamom. Last night I used a treatment that only contained cinnamon, just a little bit more than usual. I applied it to my hair in the shower, planning to just leave it on for a little bit. I immediately felt a little burning on the back of my neck, so I just rinsed my neck and washed it with a bit of soap, pulling my hair up out of the way. I finished the rest of my shower, then rinsed my hair, and shampooed and conditioned, then got out. I wrapped my hair up, then went to dry off when I noticed my upper back and neck were a little tender and very warm. I looked in the mirror to see this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/001-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/002-2.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/005-1.jpg
The redness was even brighter in person! I applied aloe gel, and lots of it, and thankfully there was no redness left this morning, but it sure freaked me out!

ktani
April 13th, 2008, 12:01 PM
DolphinPrincess

I am so sorry that this happened to you!

I am glad to read that you recovered quickly.

Thank you for posting about it and for the pictures.

I have cautioned about overdoing the spice boosters and patch testing previously.

Those warnings cannot be repeated too often, IMO.

Cinnamon has been reported to have caused irritation for someone else, in the cinnamon thread.

Cinnamon is known as an irritant and sensitizer - quantities do matter.

DolphinPrincess
April 13th, 2008, 12:04 PM
See, it was also the first time I'd put a treatment on my hair and then let it fall on my back, usually I put it in my hair while bending over the tub, and it never actually touches skin, until much later when I rinse it out. I'm sure I'll still use it again, just not with it touching my back! I'm just glad the aloe helped. Maybe I should go copy and paste my post into the cinnamon thread....

ktani
April 13th, 2008, 12:16 PM
DolphinPrincess

From a post I read of yours in another thread, cinnamon has not given you much lightening.

I recommend, since you are so sensitive to it, that you leave it out of further honey lightening recipes and either try another spice - like cardamom - after careful patch testing or another recipe altogether.

Why run the risk of cinnamon getting on your scalp, when the results that you got from using it were minimal to none?

I know firebird's results are wonderful, but her hair is not henndigoed, like yours.

Why not try a recipe that has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair?

ETA: There are 3 recipes reported to work well on henndigoed hair so far. One recipe may work better for you than another. The ingredients and proportions are different in each of them.

DolphinPrincess
April 13th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Definitely no more cinnamon for me. I think I will try to find some alfalfa honey, or at least some kind of blend. I ran out last night, so I need to pick some up anyway, then I'll try the coconut oil mix. I'll be using my test strand though, as my hair hasn't been all that happy with me after my last couple honey treatments. It gets better after the second wash, a couple days later though. I just don't want to over-do it with something that may not work on my hair anyway.

Druid of Alba
April 13th, 2008, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by mellie
I am going to re-post my honey photos since they were lost in the last honey thread.

Here's my before and after:



After one treatment:


After another one:


My recipe (Mellie's Mix):
chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon

Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out.

Wow! That is some difinate lightening! You went from an almost black to a medium brown! Thanks for sharing your recipe, I will certainly try it! :)

Did you notice any dryness in your hair after the treatment, or did it acutally help your hair too (how good could it get! :)).

mellie
April 13th, 2008, 03:46 PM
Thanks Druid of Alba!

It actually helped my hair, it gave it wonderful softness and shine! :-)

waidz
April 13th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Just question - why is that the honey treatment seems to lighten more on the lengths but not really on the roots ? Is it because those using it do not put on the roots - or is it lifting color only where there was color before ?
I want to do a few more, but not keen on having several demarcations....

ktani
April 13th, 2008, 04:09 PM
waidz

I definitely think that is has to do with where the honey lightening treatment is placed.

However, if the length has been coloured - processed - not hennaed or henndigoed, then that area may lighten more, IMO.

Have a look at firebird's results when she concentrated the honey lightening treatment on the root area to help her colour blend better - it worked.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

mellie
April 13th, 2008, 04:10 PM
Waidz, I would say that mine lightened all over (on top too), it may just be looking otherwise in the photo. There was definitely no demarcation line.

ktani
April 13th, 2008, 04:13 PM
mellie

Thanks - I was wondering about that.

Usually, there is less colour in the root area - less added colour.

There are variables though - how someone applies their colour etc., and how often.

I know of someone who colours their hair every 2-3 weeks.

firebird
April 13th, 2008, 04:36 PM
Waidz, ktani is right about my results - in my 'before' picture, I have a line due to growing out lighter dye. I put honey really only on the new growth now so that the demarcation is becoming less obvious. I would agree with ktani that if hair has previously been dyed it will lighten more with honey. If you don't have a demarcation in your hair already, I don't think you need to worry about honey creating one as the results are generally subtle and accummulate gradually with repeated treatments.

ktani
April 13th, 2008, 04:39 PM
Viviane got great results on her henndigoed hair with her honey coconut cream recipe.

However, she stopped using indigo and still continued to use henna - glosses on the length and honey treatments.

Her length continued to lighten to a dark red - it moved past the brown stage - slowly - but her roots were still lighter.

That makes sense to me - I have never used henna - her root area had less henna layers on it and no indigo.

ktani
April 13th, 2008, 05:04 PM
firebird

I have never coloured my hair either with anything stonger than toners, which included an activating lotion at one point that did contain a bit of peroxide, a long time ago.

Honey lightening treatments can lighten gradually.

What surprised me about your honey cinnamon lightening treatment results was the amount of lightening that you got from just one treatment first, and then even more with the second treatment, concentrated mostly on the root area.

ktani
April 13th, 2008, 05:16 PM
Firebird

These are your first results - the first picture here after using honey lightening, shows a nice colour - there is no before for that one.
The second picture, after just one honey cinnamon lightening treatment, shows an amazing difference.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

Your first honey cinnamon recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48669&postcount=163

and your most recent results - even more amazing, IMO.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

ktani
April 14th, 2008, 07:00 AM
Here are some interesting notes from the link on home testing a honey for its peroxide value. There are spelling errors but the information is good, IMO.

"If honey .... is mix with 4 times that amount of water ... glucose-oxidase will generate hydrogen-peroxide ..."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

Now, that does not mean that you need to mix the honey with only water as part of a honey lightening treatment - light conditioners have a fair amount of water in them but it goes to what has been said here often.

There needs to be enough moisture in a mix, to make the honey in a treatment effective (if it can produce enough peroxide to begin with) - to attempt to lighten hair.

The hair must also be covered with plastic - a wrap or bag - to maintain moisture, to ensure the best results possible. Honey slowly releases peroxide on dilution.

A dark honey - a blend is a good choice - alfalfa honey has been reported to be very good - should be fine. The honey does not have to be raw or expensive.

Also note
"After 1 hour of weating, ... maximum amount of hydrogen-peroxide is present"
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

The minimum time recommended for a honey lightening treatment given here is one hour. That means to me, while a honey lightening treatment can be left on the hair for longer periods of time, it is not necessary to do so for the maximum results wanted.

For example, mellie reported great results with her first Mellie's Mix treatment with alfalfa honey, left on her henndigoed hair, for approximately 1.5 hours. The treatments can be repeated and with this timing IMO, are more convenient.

This has been said before in the Honey threads and the Honey Article, based on previous reported results. Maluhia was the first to report successful honey lightening treatments with only1 hour timing, and she did not intentionally lighten her colour-treated hair. She used the treatments for conditioning, washing with them as an SMT, unmicrowaved, without aloe in the mix. Maluhia left the mix on her hair for 1 hour at a time, every 2-3 days, for approximately 1 month.
View pictures here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

Maluhia's recipe - text taken from the Honey Article, currently in sections, in this thread
"Colour-Treated Hair
The Recipe: 1/2 cup of equal parts of Alberto VO5 Honeydew Smoothie and Kiss My Face conditioners mixed together, 1 1/2 tablespoons honey
The Method: Mix and apply to wet hair as a shampoo, cover with a plastic bag or wrap or shower cap, and leave on the hair for 1 hour, rinse and apply the vinegar rinse.
The Vinegar Rinse: 1 teaspoon of white vinegar to 24 oz of water
Leave this on the hair for 30 seconds to 1 minute and rinse. It removes possible residue from the treatment and can be used with any of the recipes.
The timing and vinegar rinse made this recipe and method unique. The treatment needs to be done frequently and results can be gradual but it is more convenient and changed the timing for all of the recipes. Previously, 8 hours was the time that was thought to be necessary to leave a honey lightening treatment on the hair to achieve results."

The link information has the answer as to why timing a honey lightening treatment for only1 hour or a bit more is all that is really required.
In retrospect, honey lightening treatments, timed for only 1 hour, may not need to be done frequently, to achieve the results desired.

Sissilonghair
April 14th, 2008, 08:43 AM
Please help me because I read all these pages and I have a lot in my mind...I love this thread,I was desperately looking for golden highlights in my hair and get rid of my red ones.
Can I do the honey treatement every week?Why do I need to cover my hair with a plastic cap?If I keep the mix in my hair more then 2 hours do I need to spray some water on it?If I add cassia obovata to the mix would it give me the same results??Sorry for all the question,but this is a very interesting thread.

ktani
April 14th, 2008, 08:50 AM
Sissilonghair

I am glad to read that you are enjoying the thread.

I just completed adding information to the post above yours, and then I clarified the information, adding more information from here.

It has the information you need in more detail.

Briefly

1. You can do the treatment as often as you want, IMO. No one has reported trashed hair that required chopping except one report, and the person trimmed only 1/2 of an inch of hair, from the ends. I believe that was a residue problem, not damage.
In that report, the poster stated that she used water only to wash her hair at the time - honey can leave a residue.
No one else in 5 threads, including the Honey Article, has reported damaged hair from a honey lightening treatment.

2. Covering the hair with plastic maintains the moisture so that the honey can keep producing peroxide - honey slowly releases peroxide on dilution. However, I now believe that you only need to leave a honey lightening treatment on the hair for 1 hour, or a bit more, at a time.

2. No, you do not need to keep adding water - you need to have diluted the honey well enough to begin with.

firebird
April 14th, 2008, 09:31 AM
ktani, I'm sorry for being confusing, I was just trying to make the point that the two different shades in my hair were due to chemical dyeing/growing this out rather than the honey itself - you are right that my 'before' picture is after using honey and I do not have a true 'before' with virgin regrowth. Sorry I did not explain better!

I was surprised, too, how much lightening I got from the honey/cinnamon treatment - I started taking pictures really to convince myself, before I took them I wasn't really sure that honey was having an effect! As you have said, a mixture with different boosters works very well.

That's really interesting that only just over an hour will be enough for lightening, it would definitely be more convenient! Thank you!

Sissilonghair - I have done honey treatments much more often than twice a week, with no ill effects. I have also added cassia to the mix and it still worked - I guess just be careful if you have *very* fair hair, as I believe that cassia can actually make very fair hair darker, as it deposits a slight yellow dye, but from what I have read in the cassia thread, cassia (unlike henna) washes out gradually. I didn't get any darkening from cassia though, you can see in my pictures what color my hair is. I actually sometimes don't wrap my hair in plastic (I find it hard to do without giving myself a headache, I wish I could as I'm sure it would be much easier if I did!), but when I don't I keep a mister bottle with water next to me and spray it to make sure it doesn't dry out. If you do the plastic though, like ktani says, you won't need to add water. This seems to work well for me, but be careful if you use cinnamon and leave it down as it can burn your skin.

ktani
April 14th, 2008, 09:40 AM
ktani, I'm sorry for being confusing, I was just trying to make the point that the two different shades in my hair were due to chemical dyeing/growing this out rather than the honey itself - you are right that my 'before' picture is after using honey and I do not have a true 'before' with virgin regrowth. Sorry I did not explain better!

I was surprised, too, how much lightening I got from the honey/cinnamon treatment - I started taking pictures really to convince myself, before I took them I wasn't really sure that honey was having an effect! As you have said, a mixture with different boosters works very well.

That's really interesting that only just over an hour will be enough for lightening, it would definitely be more convenient! Thank you!

Sissilonghair - I have done honey treatments much more often than twice a week, with no ill effects. I have also added cassia to the mix and it still worked - I guess just be careful if you have *very* fair hair, as I believe that cassia can actually make very fair hair darker, as it deposits a slight yellow dye, but from what I have read in the cassia thread, cassia (unlike henna) washes out gradually. I didn't get any darkening from cassia though, you can see in my pictures what color my hair is. I actually sometimes don't wrap my hair in plastic (I find it hard to do without giving myself a headache, I wish I could as I'm sure it would be much easier if I did!), but when I don't I keep a mister bottle with water next to me and spray it to make sure it doesn't dry out. If you do the plastic though, like ktani says, you won't need to add water. This seems to work well for me, but be careful if you use cinnamon and leave it down as it can burn your skin.

firebird

No need to apologize - I did understand that your 2 toned hair had nothing to do with the honey treatments - that is where you started from.
I thought that you explained things very well, in your report.

Your previous honey treatments just did not lighten over all as well as your first honey cinnamon treatment.

Thank you for posting all of the added detail.

I did not know that you used the treatments uncovered. That would no doubt slow things down as the hair dries, IMO.

Spraying water to keep the treatment moist, obviously worked for you - covering the hair allows well diluted honey to produce peroxide uninterrupted.

When I do my catnip treatment, for one part, I pin my hair up and then cover it.

I am sorry to read that covering you hair for the treatments gives you a headache. The covering does not have to be too tight IMO, and from my experience, with the catnip treatments.

Sissilonghair
April 14th, 2008, 11:23 AM
Thanks for all the info:).I hope this thread goes on and on and on...Anyway I just did the mix with 3 tbsp cond.2tbsp honey 1 tbsp EVOO.It looks very liquid to me I hope it is ok.I'm going to put it on my head right now...I'll report later.:D

ktani
April 14th, 2008, 11:35 AM
Sissilonghair

Thank you.

The thread is getting to be long.

Thank you also for your recipe, and good luck.

nayver
April 15th, 2008, 12:01 PM
I'm doing it tonight!!! I've just received my ingredients and the honey I bought is very dark (hope it works)...tomorrow I'll post with the results.

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 12:15 PM
nayver

Good luck!

I look forward to reading your results.

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 01:16 PM
More useful information, from the home testing honey for its peroxide value link, and some theorizing on my part.
Getting passed the spelling errors is necessary to read this link at the bottom of this post but the information is valid, IMO.

“Hydrogen-peroxide can ….be terminated.”
Put that together with this
“If you found zero:
if the honey contains vitamin C, the H2 O2 is used to oxidize the vitamin, …the amount of H2 O2 is less.”

What these statements tell me, is that if a recipe contains either a honey with Vitamin C or possibly another ingredient containing Vitamin C, then the peroxide value of the whole recipe is lessened.

Honeys that contain Vitamin C are thyme - Thymus spp. and mint - Mentha spp.

There has been the occasional report of honey lightening results redarkening after the treatment.

I think that it may be the Vitamin C content of an ingredient in the recipe weakening the honey’s peroxide value and if the Vitamin C amount is high enough, it can cause redarkening of the hair, after causing some lightening to occur.

Lemon juice, high in Vitamin C, used in lightening recipes with conditioner and no honey, has been to reported to result in lightening and then redarkening on hennaed hair. Not all of the lightening achieved was reported lost though.

It would depend however, on how much of the lemon juice is used, and the peroxide value of the honey, for lightening and redarkening to happen as results of a honey lightening recipe with lemon juice, IMO.

Mellie used a “squeeze” of lemon in Mellie’s Mix. Her henndigoed hair lightened with no problems using alfalfa honey but not with clover honey. I think that particular clover honey did not have a high enough peroxide value to lighten hair, or was possibly too weakened dealing with the Vitamin C content of the lemon juice used, to be effective. No redarkening was reported with the alfalfa honey use.

Mellie sat in low, cool afternoon sun with the alfalfa honey treatment on her hair for about an hour to 1.5 hours, with breaks, getting out of the sun. UV, can negatively affect the peroxide value of honey and help lemon juice lighten hair.

However, there is ¼ cup of honey in the recipe, compared to a squeeze of lemon. I do not believe that the UV and lemon juice were significant factors in mellie’s final results.

ETA: I checked with mellie - she had tried Mellie's Mix with the clover honey in the same sunlight for the same amount of time and got no lightening. If the lemon juice and UV were the lightening factors of the recipe and method - she would have gotten lightening results with the clover honey version, IMO.

With honey tomato recipes, too concentrated a tomato product may have a high enough Vitamin C content to weaken the peroxide of the honey used, its own peroxide value and cause the hair to redarken after initial lightening following the treatment. Even though the honey tomato recipe calls for EVOO, which also has a peroxide value, the additional peroxide may not be high enough to help compensate for the Vitamin C content of the tomato product used.

Tomato pasta sauce, used in a honey lightening recipe is diluted to begin with, and has not been reported to cause any problems. Foods lose Vitamin C content when cooked. Canned tomato sauce and crushed tomatoes have lower Vitamin C contents than tomato paste.

It may be, that the honeys used in reported successful honey tomato treatments, (lightening and no redarkening), had high enough peroxide values, together with the EVOO peroxide, and a pasta sauce peroxide value, for example, to compensate for any peroxide weakening caused by Vitamin C, present in the tomato product.

Links
Vitamin C in foods
http://health.learninginfo.org/vitaminc.htm (http://health.learninginfo.org/vitaminc.htm)

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/usda.html (http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/usda.html)

Testing honey for its peroxide value
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 01:20 PM
More from the same link on testing honey for peroxide content
“If you found zero:
if the honey contains the enzyme katalase, …katalase is used to split the H2 O2 (into water and oxygen). Katalase is a component of some pollen.”

“Katalase” is catalase spelled incorrectly.

This statement goes to some honeys, through their plant source, not being able to produce enough peroxide or in this case maintain it.

The peroxide strips to used for home testing the peroxide value of a honey in the link are
“Marckoquant hydrogen-peroxide testtrips Nr. 10.011 … "

“Marckoquant” is Merckoquant® spelled incorrectly.
The strips “…are frequently used in food industy after cleaning ther machines with hydrogen-peroxide “

Testing honey for its peroxide value
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 02:26 PM
For honey lightening treatments, I recommend skipping lemon juice as an ingredient and if choosing the honey tomato recipe, use canned tomato pasta sauce or canned crushed tomatoes.

Also avoid any ingredient with a high Vitamin C content because I think that it can possibly weaken the peroxide value of the honey used in the treatment.

Mellie's Mix is an excellent recipe, IMO.
I would just leave out the "squeeze" of lemon.

Oddly enough, Vitamin C, given intravenously, converts to hydrogen peroxide under certain circumstanses - very interesting, IMO.
"It is these high blood levels that are required ... mechanism of action, vitamin C converting to hydrogen peroxide ...
http://www.jeffersonhospital.org/news/2007/article15617.html

nayver
April 15th, 2008, 03:26 PM
Ktani I've just made my mix, but it's too watery!!! I have it already in my hair, but I donīt know if it wil work :(

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 03:50 PM
nayver

Watery is good IMO, wait and see.

You have the ingredients now - it may take adjusting your recipe.

Did you use Mellie's proportions?

nayver
April 15th, 2008, 03:55 PM
Yes, I used Mellie's proportions, but she has longer hair :) I think it was too much for me. Can I keep the rest of the mixture for a further application???

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 04:00 PM
nayver

The full peroxide content of the honey is reached in an hour.

How long it will keep is uncertain.

I recommend doing a new batch for a recipe each time.

You could try and keep it in the fridge but I do not know how effective it will be after storing.

Wait and see your results - refridgerate the rest in the meantime.

I suggest if you want to use it up - do so in the next few days.

DolphinPrincess
April 15th, 2008, 04:48 PM
Hello Ktani, I have a couple questions. After reading your new info, I'm wondering if maybe my honey wasn't diluted enough after all? Also, my tomato recipe, I used tomato paste. Another possible reason for it to not work. Also, I just got some new honey, it's a bit darker, not sure what kind though (clover, alfalfa, etc.) It just says raw-wild natural, 100% pure strained honey. I'm going to try a treatment later today using this honey, cone-free condish, and coconut oil. Is it possible that proteins from my condish would effect it? Also, I found a website that has some interesting info on honey. www.suebee.com, click on honey. If you go to the encyclobeedia, there's a ton of info. Sorry if it sounded like I was rambling, haven't had much sleep... :shrug:;)

nayver
April 15th, 2008, 04:57 PM
It's midnight in Madrid and I'm so sleepy that I will get in bed with honey in my head :) Tomorrow I'll post my results. By the way, my hair is black with rests of highlights.

DolphinPrincess
April 15th, 2008, 05:08 PM
Another thing, I took a small strand of hair and let it soak in pure hydrogen peroxide, just to see what would happen. It's been in for 30 minutes, and there has been absolutely no color change. Does this mean my hair just isn't going to change? Or would pure hydrogen peroxide just not really work? (Don't worry, I would never put it straight on my head!)

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 05:11 PM
Hi DolphinPrincess

Honey should always be well diluted for a honey lightening recipe in order to produce peroxide.

The proteins? Perhaps - it depends on how the conditioner is formulated - too many waxy ingredients, too much oil, too many coatings like protein and it is possible - did you check out the Preferred Conditioner List?

It gives you an idea of what kind of conditioners have worked well with the treatments.

An example is Herbal Essences Hello Hydration.

Here is the list.

"Preferred Conditioner List
Note: This list is a guide. These hair conditioners have been reported to work well in the recipes.
Alberto V05 Champagne & Strawberries, Alberto V05 Honeydew Smoothie, Alberto V05 Kiwi Lime Squeeze, Alberto VO5 Sun Kissed Raspberry, Alberto V05 Vanilla Mint Tea, Citre Shine, Herbal Essences Hello Hydration, Kiss My Face, Mane 'n Tail, Tigi Oatmeal & Honey."

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 05:26 PM
Sorry DolphinPrincess

I missed the peroxide question.

3% or 10 volume peroxide has been used to lighten hennaed hair - there was a thread on the results - it is not here at the moment.

It can be tricky with that - overuse resulted in someone having to cut off most of their hair's length but it had lightened.

That has never been reported to happen as a result of any honey lightening treatment.

Even if the honey lightening treatment does not work - it will not trash your hair no matter how many times you try it.

Do I think that your hair will never lighten? No.

It may fade on its own or you could find a recipe that works for you.

The method and the recipe ingredients though are important.

DolphinPrincess
April 15th, 2008, 05:32 PM
Yes, I had checked out the list, but both of the stores I ever go to (WalMart and Safeway) have a very, very limited V05 selection. I typically use Suave Vanilla (either kind) for everything that requires a cheap, cone-free condish. I do also have Herbal Essences Long Term Relationship, if you think it might work better.

For the peroxide, don't worry, I'm not going to put it in my head, I'm just curious to see if it'll lighten, how long it'll take, how light it'll get, etc.

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 06:14 PM
DolphinPrincess

Comparing the 2 ingredient lists
Hello Hydration
"Water, Stearyl Alcohol, CyclopentaSiloxane, Cetyl Alcohol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Dimethicone, Vanilla Planifolia Fruit Extract, Cocos Nucifera Milk (Coconut), Fragrance, Glutamic Acid, Benzyl Alcohol, EDTA, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Citric Acid, Blue 1"
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=159823&catid=10325&brand=21469&trx=PLST-0-BRAND&trxp1=10325&trxp2=159823&trxp3=1&trxp4=0&btrx=BUY-PLST-0-BRAND&cmbProdBrandFilter=21469

Long Term Relationship
"Water , Stearyl Alcohol , Cetyl Alcohol , Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine , Raspberry Juice - Rubus Idaeus , Hydrolyzed Silk , Glutamic Acid , Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone , Fragrance , Benzyl Alcohol , EDTA , Citric Acid , Propylene Glycol , Sodium Chloride , Methylchloroisothiazolinone , Methylisothiazolinone , Red 33"
http://www.resource.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304639&navAction=jump&navCount=0&skuid=sku3868065&id=prod3869216#ingredient


I think Long Term Relationshp should be fine.

DolphinPrincess
April 15th, 2008, 06:33 PM
Thank you Ktani! When I look at ingredient lists, I really don't know what I'm looking at. :D:p

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 06:37 PM
DolphinPrincess

You are most welcome.

It has taken me years to figure them out, with the help of a cosmetic dictionary, the net and reading Paula Begoun's books.

With all of that, cosmetic companies still come up with new ingredients that require looking them up.

DolphinPrincess
April 15th, 2008, 06:40 PM
I can only imagine.

Another question: (sorry so many today) After reading the new research, does that mean that honey should make up only 25% of a recipe to get best results?

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 06:46 PM
DolphinPrincess

No, it just needs to be diluted in 4 x the amount of liquid, which can include other ingredients like conditioner in a treatment.

DolphinPrincess
April 15th, 2008, 06:51 PM
And thank you again! I'm going to try doing a treatment of condish, honey, and coconut oil every other day or every day when I wash my hair for as long as possible (goal is a month) to see if something will happen. I have my fingers crossed!

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 06:57 PM
DolphinPrincess

You could also try Mellie's Mix, without the lemon juice.

That calls for 1/4 cup of honey to 1 cup of water, plus the chamomile and mullein - which is perfect, IMO.

Mellie's Mix: (used successfully on hennindigoed hair)
"chamomile Note:mellie used (Anthemis nobilis - Roman chmomile)
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon
Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

The honey is 25% of the number of ingredients in this case but the proportions are a different matter and water is not usually counted in the honey lightening treatments as an ingredient - it is an option with most recipes, to make sure that the honey is diluted well enough.

DolphinPrincess
April 15th, 2008, 07:36 PM
Hmmm, where would I find the mullein?

ETA: Sorry, I don't even know what it is.

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 07:45 PM
DolphinPrincess

You will need 2 things to duplicate the recipe - Roman Chamomile - Anthemis nobilis and mullein.

Both may be found in health food stores or online.

ktani
April 15th, 2008, 07:49 PM
firebird

From what I have read, mullein flowers can yield a yellow dye and mullein also contains mucilage, which can build-up on hair but that depends on the content yielded by the plant. Mucilage is considered to be moisturizing to an extent as well as being reported to help provide slip to the hair.

Most plant seed oils can as I understand it have a peroxide value, but that varies.

I have read of mullein, Verbascum thapsus, being used for hair lightening.

I will try to find out more about it.

mellie may have more information.

ETA: here is the Wiki information See "Uses"
"Great Mullein has been used ... as a remedy for skin, throat and breathing ailments. .... It contains mucilage, several saponins, coumarin and glycosides. ... Non-medical uses have included dyeing ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbascum_thapsus

and here is the Plants For a Future database link, that also refers to its dye use, stating that to yield a yellow dye, the flowers must be boiled and that an infusion of the flowers can be used to dye hair a golden shade. See "Other Uses"
http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Verbascum+thapsus

Mullein cautions - See "Other info"
http://www.missouriplants.com/Yellowalt/Verbascum_thaspus_page.html

Mullein is generally recognized as safe - See "Safety Issues"
http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=e0498803-7f62-4563-8d47-5fe33da65dd4&chunkiid=21821

DolphinPrincess

Here you go. mellie posted that a book she has said that mullein "brightens" hair.

DolphinPrincess
April 15th, 2008, 07:53 PM
Thanks! You've been so much help!

nayver
April 16th, 2008, 12:43 AM
It's 8.35 am in Madrid and I just wash my hair. I don't see any noticeable changes in my hair. I'll wait until my hair is completely dry to post the results. The thing is I'm smelling like honey! :D

nayver
April 16th, 2008, 02:07 AM
Well, my hair is still wet, but I can see that my highlights are clearer. My dark hair is still dark, maybe I need more applications. Even if it doesn't work to lighten my hair as a treatment is wonderful, my hair is softer than ever.

Sissilonghair
April 16th, 2008, 02:07 AM
Thanks for all the info:).I hope this thread goes on and on and on...Anyway I just did the mix with 3 tbsp cond.2tbsp honey 1 tbsp EVOO.It looks very liquid to me I hope it is ok.I'm going to put it on my head right now...I'll report later.:D
I had the mixture on my head for two hours,I loved the feeling of my hair under the water it was so soft...My hair don't look too light,I have a golden tone on it but they are still kind of reddish,maybe because I didn't cover it with a shower cap??Please help,I really want to repeat this treatement for my hair.:)

nayver
April 16th, 2008, 05:03 AM
As a I said before, the highlights of my hair are now clearer. Hair looks fine, but I think I'll try with more applications. Ktani...how much I have to wait for the second application? Hair at the ends is crunchy...maybe I didn't rinse it well.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1239/p1030392zd9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

mellie
April 16th, 2008, 05:50 AM
Nayver, it definitely looks lighter than your avatar to me! Lovely body, too! Very pretty! :-)

I have done a second treatment as soon as the next day, if you want to try again.

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 06:12 AM
I had the mixture on my head for two hours,I loved the feeling of my hair under the water it was so soft...My hair don't look too light,I have a golden tone on it but they are still kind of reddish,maybe because I didn't cover it with a shower cap??Please help,I really want to repeat this treatement for my hair.:)

Sissilinghair

Thank you for your feedback and recipe.

I am glad to read that your hair is so soft.

You need to keep the hair covered with plastic during the treatment to get the best results.

Honey need continuous moisture to keep producing peroxide.

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 06:18 AM
nayver

I agree with mellie. Your hair does look lighter.

From all reports - there is no reason why you cannot repeat the treatment as often as you like.

Crunchy ends can happen - honey can leave a residue.

Wash your hair with shampoo or use a mild vinegar rinse - 1 tsp vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds, then rinsed out.

ETA: If you washed your hair with shampoo this morning, it may need a second light shampoo or just the vinegar rinse.

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 06:52 AM
nayver

I just looked at your signature picture in your profile - your hair definitely is lighter, IMO.

nayver
April 16th, 2008, 07:07 AM
Thank you girls!!! Mellie I have lots of hair...when I was younger I didn't like it, but now I LOVE volume. I'll try tonight again, but different proportions, since my hair is shorter than Mellie's. One more question...do I have to shampoo again or just wet the hair?

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 07:09 AM
nayver

It has been reported that it sometimes takes a second shampoo to remove the residue - the dry ends feeling.

If you do not want to rewash - try the vinegar rinse first but leave it on your hair 30-60 seconds before rinsing.

mellie
April 16th, 2008, 07:20 AM
I usually shampoo in between treatments.

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 07:24 AM
mellie

Do your ends ever feel dry from the treatment?

Perhaps different honeys leave different amount of residue or the hair was washed with not enough shampoo in some cases.

mellie
April 16th, 2008, 07:26 AM
No, I have no problem with dry or crunchy ends. The treatment leaves my hair feeling very soft and great.

nayver
April 16th, 2008, 07:32 AM
Mellie sorry for my questions :( Do you wash your hair before the treatment? or just you applied to damp hair? and after the treatment, do you shampoo it to avoid residues??

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 07:37 AM
nayver

When you mix the next batch - try leaving out the lemon juice - you may just get more lightening.

nayver
April 16th, 2008, 07:40 AM
Ktani, I left out the lemon juice after reading your posts ;) I know I have to do several treatments cause my hair is very black and it's gonna take more time to achieve the desired result.

mellie
April 16th, 2008, 07:43 AM
nayver, I usually shampoo the morning of the treatment. I don't shampoo right after it though, just rinse it out well. I do shampoo the next morning. I suppose you could shampoo right after, I'm just lazy. :-)

It will take a few treatments definitely, since your hair is even darker than mine! :-)

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 07:46 AM
nayver

Thank you for making that clear.

I think, considering how dark your hair is that the treatment is working very well.

Mellie's Mix is the exact dilution needed for maximum honey peroxide content.

I just never knew that until I read that link.

nayver
April 16th, 2008, 07:52 AM
Thanks Mellie and Ktani ;) I'll try again tonight, but I will leave just one or two hours and I won't wash it until tomorrow.

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 07:56 AM
nayver

Sounds good.

1 hour is all you really need - 1.5 - 2 is even better to make sure that you have the best chance of achieving your goal, IMO.

Good luck!

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 08:21 AM
I checked with mellie - she had tried Mellie's Mix with the clover honey in the same sunlight for the same amount of time and got no lightening. If the lemon juice and UV were the lightening factors of the recipe and method - she would have gotten lightening results with the clover honey version, IMO.

I think that the alfalfa honey produced enough peroxide to deal with being weakened by the lemon juice Vitamin C content, and still be effective for lightening.

I recommend leaving the lemon juice out of Mellie's Mix. Otherwise IMO, it is a perfect recipe to try on any hair - henndigoed, hennaed, colour-treated or virgin, for honey lightening.

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Latest honey lightening recipe news Recap 1

1. Dilute honey with a ratio of 4 to 1, liquid to honey to produce peroxide.
Translation - example - if you use a 1/4 cup of honey in a recipe - use one cup of liquid, composed of either conditioner, water, water with herbs or pasta sauce to dilute the honey. Oil does not count as a liquid.

2. The peroxide produced by honey in a recipe will oxidize Vitamin C, present either in the honey itself, or I belive present in another recipe ingredient. This will deplete the amount of peroxide in the honey.
Application - Avoid honeys that contain Vitamin C, examples - mint honey and thyme honey. Avoid adding any ingredient that has a high Vitamin C content to a recipe, examples - lemon juice and tomato paste.

3. Honey lightening recipes only need to be left on the hair for 1 hour or a bit more to be sure of any results.
Reason - honey when diluted at a 4 to 1 ratio of liquid to honey will produce the maximum amount of peroxide in 1 hour.

4. The best honey to buy is a darker coloured blend of honeys. The honey does not have to be raw or expensive.
Reason - The peroxide value of honey is determined by the plant source. A honey blend IMO, increases the odds of buying a honey that will yield enough peroxide to be effective for lightening hair. The darker coloured honeys are less likely to include UF honey, an over processed honey on the market that is very pale in colour. A honey blend can include varieties of one plant source like alfalfa, reported to be very good in terms of results for honey lightening.

ktani
April 16th, 2008, 08:42 PM
Looking back with the new information in mind.

Viviane's recipe - text taken from the Honey Article, currently in sections, in this thread.
"The Recipe: equal parts of coconut cream, honey and silicone free conditioner
The Method: Mix and apply to wet hair, cover with a plastic bag or wrap or shower cap, and leave on the hair for a minimum of 1 hour, rinse, shampoo and condition if desired.
The conditioner can be left out of the recipe if desired, or a preferred conditioner is hard to obtain, and water added to ensure that there is enough moisture to dilute the honey.
In this recipe, the coconut cream provides a peroxide boost."
Coconut oil can be substituted for the coconut cream - it is the part of the coconut cream that has the peroxide value.
View pictures here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...9&postcount=38 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38)


Javadandy's recipe
"I tried a honey, conditioner and coconut oil treatment on the hair. About 50/20/30. It was a little runny, I used a cheapy rosemary conditioner I bought a while back from Sam's Club."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=215 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=215)

Both of these recipes worked well on henndigoed hair but the results reported were more gradual per treatment than Mellie's Mix, which used the 4 to one liquid to honey ratio to dilute the honey.

I think that the maximum peroxide content of the honey used was not achieved each time, requiring more frequent treatments to get the level of ligtening desired.

Mellie's Mix
"chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon
Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out."
Note: mellie later confirmed, that the species of chamomile she used was Roman chamomile (Anthemis nobilis), and that these results were on henndigoed hair.
View pictures here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=224 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...&postcount=224)

For Viviane's and Javadandy's receipes, I recommend adding more water to the mix to get the 4 to 1 ratio.

I believe that Mellie's Mix will yield even better results without the lemon juice.

(http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=53395&postcount=215)

nayver
April 17th, 2008, 01:23 AM
Girls I have my second application in my hair...I'll leave it for one hour, then rinse with vinegar and finally I'll wash my hair. Pics after the results :D

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 04:31 AM
nayver

Sounds good but I would reverse part of the order.

Rinse out the treatment, wash your hair, then use the vinegar rinse. Leave the vinegar rinse on the hair 30-60 seconds before rinsing it out.

ETA: You can also use conditioner if you like following the vinegar rinse, IMO.

nayver
April 17th, 2008, 07:44 AM
Ktani I didn't read your message before, but I did I as planned. I rinse with vinegar first, then shampoo and then conditioner and my hair is soft, not crunchy, like the first time. Hair is definitely getting lighter, but I would be doing applications for the next weeks. My mixture was watery also, but since my hair was not dripping wet I could apply it better.

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 08:51 AM
nayver

My message was a suggestion.

The important thing is that your hair is soft, not crunchy.

I am so pleased for you.

Any pictures?

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 08:53 AM
The archives have allowd recovery of Honey II - the result thread with pictures, the original Honey thread and the Honey Article.

Here is Honey II
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=60217

And here is the original Honey thread
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=55345

Here is the Honey Article - with pictures
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=62261

Thank you Stephanie for all of your hard work on this and so much more and thank you Mods for all of the hard work you do to keep this site and TBB in order.

mellie
April 17th, 2008, 09:40 AM
Yes, Nayver - pics please! :-)

nayver
April 17th, 2008, 10:11 AM
Tonight I will take one ;) What I really have noticed in my roots (where I don't have bleached strands) that the treatment is like a semi-permanent dyed (a few years ago I used one call Natural Instincts by Clairol)...I suppose is for the peroxide. The good thing about honey is that I can use it many times without damaging my hair. I'm very optimist!!!

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 10:19 AM
nayver

I am pleased that you are so pleased with your results.

I eagerly await your picture.

If you can, could you please post your signature picture, your first treatment picture and your latest picture in one post so that they can be compared in one viewing?

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 02:38 PM
I was wrong about honey having no chelating abilities.

Honey contains gluconic acid, which is a chelator.

However, I found no references that referred to honey as being a chelating agent.

Honey can leave a residue that can be removed with shampoo or a vinegar rinse.

See "Description" for gluconic acid
http://www.foodbs.org/foodb/additives/show/824

See "Occurance and uses"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluconic_acid

The gluconic acid content of honey varies.

This source says that honey has a gluconic acid amount of ".3%"
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200209/000020020902A0230313.php

This source says that the D-gluconic acid range varies from "3.91 to 11.71 g/kg" in selected honeys.
http://pubs.acs.org/cgi-bin/abstract.cgi/jafcau/1997/45/i09/abs/jf970012c.html

nayver
April 17th, 2008, 03:13 PM
Here are my three pics :) I don't know if I have had any progress, but I'm having fun with my potions :D

Before (oriental black hair -1/4 chinese- with bleached highlights done in August 2007)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3884/otrsfqc6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

After the first treatment with Mellie's mix but without the squeeze of lemon.

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2290/p1030392gp5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

After the second treatment with Mellie's mix again

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3729/p1030398ig8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I know the lights are different

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 03:35 PM
nayver

Thank you for posting all 3 pictures.

Even with the different lighting I can see the lightening, especially at your roots.

Are the current treatment results without lemon juice too?

nayver
April 17th, 2008, 03:58 PM
No lemon for me ;) I'll wait a couple of days to do it again.

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 04:17 PM
nayver

Your results are wonderful, IMO.

Previous reports of tests on black hair strands have not been successful.

However, much more about honey and how the peroxide works is now known in this thread and understood.

Thank you for posting all of the details.

mellie
April 17th, 2008, 05:44 PM
Nayver, your natural wave looks so nice in the final photo! Did you curl it or is it the honey doing that?

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 06:03 PM
mellie

I think that you are the first to create a honey lightening recipe with the exact dilution needed to get the maximum honey peroxide content in one shot.

How many alfalfa honey Mellie's Mixes did you do altogether?

I can see from your pictures how beautiful your hair looked after each treatment.

What are the long term results of the condition of your hair so far since using Mellie's mix?

mellie
April 17th, 2008, 06:07 PM
Thanks ktani!

I think that I only did 2-3 alfalfa mixes altogether. I tried a few unsuccessful clover honey treatments too.

The Mellie's Mix really left my hair in excellent condition.

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 06:15 PM
Thank you mellie

Going by nayver's results, on naturally black hair, where there are no previously lightened strands, I think that you would have gotten even more lightening without the lemon juice.

I am glad to read that the condition of your hair corresponds to all of the reports so far on long term honey lightening treatment use as well as short term use - minus the one short term report I attribute to residue - no damage.

Previous recipes I believe, had less than the full amount of peroxide possible being produced each time. Long term use would IMO, be equivalent to 2 or 3 treatments with the alfalfa honey version of Mellie's Mix, in terms of the amount of peroxide being applied to the hair, in some cases.

The clover honey version produced no lightening - with the same mix and conditions, that tells me that there was not enough peroxide produced or left after oxidizing the lemon juice, to affect the hair's condition very much, if at all.

ktani
April 17th, 2008, 08:14 PM
So far, based on the reports of honey lightening results and the reports of cinnamon use for lightening hair, I still believe that the peroxide produced by plants (this includes the peroxide in oils), and honey is tempered by other natually occurring constituents, resulting in it being be non-damaging to hair and skin.

The exceptions are the reports of the temporary effects to date, of cinnamon irritation, that I believe was caused by cinnamon oil, and the one and only report on honey use, that I believe was a residue result.

ETA: The irritant in cinnamon, is according this this link, cinnamic aldehyde a constituent of the oil. Hydrogen peroxide is not mentioned.
See both "Cinamomum" and "Cinnamomum cassia"
http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermL/LAUR.html

And in this one, other constituents were named as well, in a case of long term irritation but again, no mention of hydrogen peroxide.
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mksg/cod/2005/00000052/00000004/art00015

nayver
April 18th, 2008, 01:43 AM
Thanks girls!!! Ktani I've been blessed with a strong hair, so I don't think the mixture is acting negatively against it. After the first time, when I feel the crunchy ends, I think was the result of not rinsing well, because my roots were very smooth and sleek (maybe I just rinsed the roots :D). Now my hair is shinier than ever.
Mellie my waves were made with another potion :D I cooked "linen seeds" (in Spanish semillas de lino, I don't know if the translation is correct). I put 2 tbsp in a cup of water more or less and boil them. The result is a all natural curl activator gel ;) I discovered the recipe in a Spanish beauty forum. It was a little watery, but it worked. Next time I'll use less water.

mellie
April 18th, 2008, 05:33 AM
Nayver, thanks for your curl recipe, that is very interesting! Do you let the mixture cool, then rinse through your hair? Then rinse out?

Maybe you should post that recipe and your photos in a new thread - I am sure other folks would be interested as well! It's gorgeous! :-)

ktani
April 18th, 2008, 05:44 AM
nayver

Thank you for reporting back with further details.

Even with strong hair like yours, if the peroxide from the treatment was damaging, there would be indications, IMO, especially by now.

Your reports, on the condition of your hair following the treatments, are consistent with other reports of honey lightening results, including at first, your dry, crunchy ends.

You were able to resolve the dry ends problem with shampoo and the vinegar rinse, as other people have resolved the problem.

There have been 0 reports of honey lightening results, or cinnamon lightening results, turning the hair turning gummy or weakened, requiring that inches of strands or most of the hair be cut off, as there were in a thread where 3% and stronger, conventional hydrogen peroxide was used.

Considering the fact that there have been 4 Honey threads and one Honey Article to date, and several reports on long term, successive honey lightening use, I think that there would have been some indication by now, that the hydrogen peroxide produced by either honey, plants or food can damage hair, the way overuse of conventional hydrogen peroxide can damage it.

There has not been any such indication, reported to date, even when a honey lightening recipe has been used successively, on colour-treated and hi-lighted hair.

ktani
April 18th, 2008, 05:49 AM
nayver

According to this
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/other/192535-flax_seed.html

what you used are flax seeds.

mellie
April 18th, 2008, 06:16 AM
Yes, I was also thinking that's what it probably translated to in English. Nayver, do the seeds look like this?
http://www.wheatmontana.com/store/images/Brown-Flax-Seed.jpg

ktani
April 18th, 2008, 07:49 AM
There have been no reports of the hydrogen peroxide produced by either honey or plants, causing long term irritation or damaged skin, on the scalp or elsewhere, in the 5 Honey threads (including the Honey Article), or in any other thread on these boards, that I have read.

Diluted honey use irritated my sensitive scalp but the condition was temporary, with no long term results.

nayver
April 18th, 2008, 08:35 AM
Mellie those are my seeds! I will have a busy weekend and I don't think I'll have time to post a thread, but I surely will after Monday. It's an easy recipe and the best thing is all natural and cheap. I let the mixture cool and apply it like a gel or mousse. You can keep the mixture for a couple of days.

ktani
April 18th, 2008, 10:22 AM
nayver

I look forward to your reading post on the flax seeds, wherever you place it.

I think mellie's idea is a good one - a thread on your flax seed mix sounds interesting - pictures of your hair with the gel and other ways of using the mix are excellent for showing others how to use the recipe.

ktani
April 18th, 2008, 03:29 PM
Behind my reasoning on plant and honey produced peroxide being non-damaging to hair and skin

In this Honey Article reference, it states, that aside from the fact that the amount of peroxide produced by honey is approximately 1000 times less than conventional 3% peroxide, honey itself has other constituents that lessen the negative effects of the peroxide it produces. The peroxide produced by honey has been reported not to be damaging to human skin cells.
See "Hydrogen peroxide activity"
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

I believe, that the same kind of tempering mechanisms occur in the plants that produce peroxide.

The honey lightening reports and cinnamon lightening reports, so far, have indicated to me, that this may well be the case and further,
that plant and honey produced peroxide is also non-damaging to hair.

mellie
April 18th, 2008, 03:35 PM
Awesome! Nayver, I bought some of your seeds today and can't wait to try it! :-)

lynnala
April 19th, 2008, 03:48 PM
I swear my hair is getting darker since I started using honey rinses! My white hair seems to be reverting back to it's earlier, well, honey color. Has anyone experienced this? Maybe the honey is reacting with the cassia treatment I did a month ago? The cassia should have worn off by now, based on past experience.

firebird
April 19th, 2008, 04:08 PM
lynnala, when I started doing honey treatments (and rinses), at first I thought that as well as the lightening, I was sometimes getting some 'honey' color. Looking at the pictures I've done for this thread, it doesn't seem like it, but I have other pictures in different lights which do show my hair has a more golden/reddish color. Thinking back, the picture I am thinking of was taken after I did a treatment with particularly dark (clover) honey and pretty soon after a cassia treatment. I don't know if it is the light, the honey or my hair (I do have some very red strands, 2 of my grandparents had red hair), but when I first saw the picture, I was surprised at how red it looked. My husband actually commented that my hair was getting red too.

DolphinPrincess
April 19th, 2008, 06:07 PM
Well, after doing a couple honey treatments with a new recipe, I thought I'd post my recipe and a few pictures.
My new recipe:
1/2 cup Herbal Essences Long Term Relationship & Aussie Cleanse and Mend (ran out of the HE, so I subbed some of my SO's and it worked great!)
2 Tablespoons Honey (not sure what kind, but it's dark!)
2 Tablespoons Coconut Oil
I shampooed my hair, rinsed well, squeezed the extra water from my hair, and applied. I left it in for about an hour and a half, then rinsed well. My hair came out so super soft and shiny! I've used this mix twice now, and my hair is loving it! Absolutely no crunchiness or build-up! I'm going to do a henna tomorrow, so I'll have to wait a few days before the next! I hadn't thought there was any color change, but looking at my new pics, I definitely think so! And please don't mind the funky wave-thing, it the aftermath of my work updo. :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/021.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/016.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/dolphin_princess2004/hair/018.jpg

ktani
April 19th, 2008, 09:15 PM
lynnala

Thank you for your feedback.

Honey rinses, not left on the hair for about an hour and covered, would not IMO, be able to lighten hair.

Honey has not previously been reported to deposit a colour of its own on the hair. It could be a problem not reported before, on lighter hair colours, but I think that it would have been by now.

Cassia has however, been reported to darken and turn brassy on light coloured hair, here in other threads - different batches of cassia can vary in the colour they produce as well.

A constituent of cassia is chrysophanic acid, which in pure form can vary from yellow to orange-yellow in colour.

See "Chemistry"
"Other constituents in senna include chrysophanic acid .... "
http://www.drugs.com/npp/senna.html

See "Guarantee analysis"
"yellow-orange ..."
http://www.carlroth.be/catalogue/catalogue.do?ID=1178804185790&favOid=0000000100005b7e00040023&CMD=SELECT&act=showBookmark&lang=nl-nl&catId=NL

ktani
April 19th, 2008, 09:41 PM
firebird

From what I have read about cassia and the difference in batches and the reports about it turning brassy on fair hair, I think that it is more likely the cassia you used than the honey.

It is possible though, that if your hair was dry and porous, it might have picked up a bit of honey colour.

However, if the honey was well diluted, I do not think that it would be able to impart much colour to the hair.

ktani
April 19th, 2008, 09:59 PM
DolphinPrincess

Thank you for your feedback and recipe.

I am very pleased to read that you are so happy with the condition of your hair.

From your pictures, I can see that there is some colour change - it is slight but it is there, IMO.

Aussie Cleanse and Mend is one of the conditioners reported not to work well in a honey lightening recipe.

From your post, you did not use too much of it though.

I would leave it out of future honey lightening recipes and stay with the Herbal Essences choices that you planned on using had you not run out of one of them.

I think that you may find that you will get even more lightening.

DolphinPrincess
April 19th, 2008, 10:06 PM
Oh, good to know, thanks! I will definitely leave it out then!

ktani
April 19th, 2008, 10:47 PM
lynnala and firebird

It may also be possible IMO, that the acids in the honeys you both used, reacted with the cassia.

See "290 Abstracts of Chemical Papers"

"Chrysophanic acid (sodium hydroxide fraction) ... shows orange-red with sulphuric acid, yellow with nitric acid, and a yellow .....on dilution."
http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleForFree.cfm?doi=AN9154000287&JournalCode=AN

According to this link, in pure form, chrysophanic acid, is golden yellow, and there is more detail about it changing colour in different solutions. See "Description"
http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclectic/kings/acidum-chry.html

The specific use of darker coloured honeys is "new territory" in terms of reported results. However, when diliuted well, I still tend to think that they will not add much colour to the hair. For lighter coloured hair, a less dark honey may be preferable.

It does appear with your 2 results, that honey and cassia may be reacting somehow.

DolphinPrincess
April 19th, 2008, 11:34 PM
So, after reading the thread in The Beauty Bottle, is it possible that the Manuka Honey would have better results?

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 05:09 AM
DolphinPrincess

Manuka honey is generally much much more expensive than other honeys.

I think that you are starting to get the results that you are after now.

I recommend continuing with the honey that you are using first - making sure that you use the 4 to one ratio of liquid to honey - which includes the amount of conditioner but not the oil, and leave out the Aussie Cleanse and Mend.

You can add water to get the ratio rather than only conditioner.

Myrddin
April 20th, 2008, 05:32 AM
Tonight I did the honey treatment for my hair again. Not necessarily for lightening but for moisturizing. I took a spoon of AO GPB Condi, Sanoll Haar Intensiv Spülung (from Austria) and creamy honey.

I left it over night, cause I was too tired to rinse it out before I went to bed. I couldn´t sleep with it very well, so I decided to wash it out at 5 am...
I rinsed for a couple of minutes until my legs started to shake because I was bending over all the time (next time I´ll do a warm up and some stretching ;-)). Afterwards it was a bit difficult to fall asleep again.

Well, for the result: The hair is moisturized, but I haven´t rinsed very well. There is some residue left, it feels a bit greasy, but looks good. Due to the residue my hair looks a bit darker. Doesn´t matter. Next time I leave it just for an hour, when I´m awake, and rinse it outl

My observation with AO conditioners. I have the impression that they don´t dissolve very well with the other conditioner, the honey and the some extra water. I had this time again little pieces of ao condish in my hair, even though it has been for hours in my hair.

I will try this recipe again next time with a different conditoner.

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 05:55 AM
Myrddin

Thank you for your feedback and recipe details.

Conditioners can definitely make a difference in honey lightening and conditioning results.

I am glad to read that your hair is moisturized.

Thank you also for the details about AO conditioners.

Shampoo or a vinegar rinse should help remove the honey residue.

Honey has not been reported to be a problem in terms of possibly adding colour to the hair until recently - as new results continue to come in, that may change. It may be that it can.

Another option for you may be Mellie's Mix, without the lemon juice, which contains no conditioner, only herbs, if you want lightening.

This recipe is reported to leave the hair soft and very shiny.

Mellie's Mix
chamomile Note: mellie later posted that she used Anthemis nobilis - Roman chamomile
mullein
Alfalfa honey (Clover honey didn't work for me)
squeeze of lemon
Fill a large tea ball with the chamomile and mullein (approx. 1 Tbsp each). Add approx. 1 cup hot water, and the honey (approx. 1/4 c.) and sqeeze of lemon, apply to hair. I sat in cool, low afternoon sun for about one to one and a half hours, then rinsed out.
View pictures here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224)

Myrddin
April 20th, 2008, 06:48 AM
Hey Ktani,

thanks for the input. I might try Mellies method if I´m getting bored or something like that.

I´m also not worried about the residue or the light crispiness. I know the next wash with shampoo or shampoo bar everything will be fine. Who knows maybe then I´ll see some lightening results.

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 06:59 AM
Myrddin

Sounds good.

Some conditioners have been reported to interfere with honey lightening - like Aussie Cleanse and Mend.

kathrynrose experimented with it to see if she could get lightening with her usual recipe - she did not.

However, when she used the exact same recipe with another conditioner, she got lightening.

When I looked at the Aussie ingredient list, I could see the extra waxy ingredients, polymers and oils that IMO, were the cause of the problem.

firebird
April 20th, 2008, 08:08 AM
ktani, that's really interesting about how honey and cassia could react, thanks so much for looking into it! I didn't realize that cassia could make hair brassy/reddish, it's good to know it is that and not the honey alone. I am going to do another cassia treatment soon, so I will take pictures and see if this happens again when I use the honey.

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 08:45 AM
firebird

You are very welcome.

I am not sure exactly how they may be reacting. I did know about cassia and brassiness from reading threads on that happening some time ago.

I found 2 of the links and information then but I do not believe that I posted them. There was no possible honey cassia connection then that I was aware of - there were just reports of cassia turning hair darker and brassy. I have lynnala and you to thank for making me aware of that possibility and the possibility that honey may be able to affect hair colour on its own.

I look forward to reading your continued feedback.

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 11:50 AM
In light of the current discussions on cassia, honey and hair colour changes, I find these excerpts from a recent thread, particularly interesting.

Originally posted by Jeni
"and bowl 3-100% cassia, mixed with tea and water."
"The side with 100% cassia is red, slightly, very slightly, lighter then the 50/50, but still very much henna red. I'm confused, why is my hair red? All 3 samples came out pretty close to the same color... Could it of been the tea? "
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2020 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2020)

There were several theories in the following posts as to why these results may have occurred.

From the information in the links I posted earlier today in this thread - I think that it was the tea, possibly reacting with the chrysophanic acid in the cassia the same way honey may have on firebird's hair.

In lynnala's case, it may be that the honey in the rinse she used was too diluted to help the chrysophanic acid turn red, and just turned it gold instead.

firebird
April 20th, 2008, 02:30 PM
Jeni's results are very interesting, thank you ktani for letting me know about it :) ktani, in response to what you said about maybe hair being dry/porous and so taking up more honey color - I forgot to mention it in my earlier reply, but my hair tends more towards oily than dry and although my dyed length may be more porous, the reddish color I saw affected all my hair.

I am currently doing a honey/cinnamon treatment and hope to do cassia and more honey in the next few days (DH will be away so I can experiment in peace :P), I will definitely take pictures! I would actually love to be able to keep a reddish color, as like I mentioned, I have some very red strands anyway and it would be great to bring out more reddish shade.

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 02:37 PM
firebird

I think that you did mention your hair being oily before and I forgot that.

Thank you for clearing that up.

If my theory is correct about honey and cassia - you may just get your wish to have more red in your hair.

When I was looking at your latest honey cinnamon results a little while back, I did notice what I thought was a reddish tinge to your hair but I never thought too much about it.

I wondered if it might be a result of the cinnamon but never thought to persue it.

lynnala
April 20th, 2008, 03:52 PM
ktani; thanks for alerting me to these last pages. So you'll know how I'm using the honey, I am mixing about a tablespoon or so in a quart of water (warm first to melt the honey, then cold), and I use it as a final cold rinse which I do not wash out. I've been trying it for the conditioning effects, I didn't expect the color effects. I think you are right about it reacting with the cassia. The next time I wash my hair, I'll take some pics so we can compare them to my sig pics which are one month old. BTW, I am also experiencing the crunchy ends, so I am going to wash the rinse out of the ends from now on. (also, you can see from my sig pic how my hair took color from a three-hour cassia treatment).

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 04:26 PM
lynnala

I thank you for helping me figure this out - if I am right.

You do not have to wash the rinse out.

Since the honey is so diluted - try a weak vinegar rinse first - 1 tsp of your preferred vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds, then rinsed out.

That may give you more moisturizing benefits than shampooing the honey rinse out.

I have noticed your cassia results before - amazing!

lynnala
April 20th, 2008, 04:33 PM
ktani, I started using the honey because I dislike the smell of vinegar, even though I love the results vinegar had on my hair. I am just going to run the ends of my hair under clear water to see if it helps with the crunchies. I'm also going to experiment with citric acid in the honey rinse, as soon as I can find some citric acid.

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 04:41 PM
lynnala

IMO, clear water may not be enough for the honey residue - it has not worked before, according to reports.

I also do not think adding citric acid to the honey rinse will help.

Try the citric acid rinse after the honey rinse.

lynnala
April 20th, 2008, 09:13 PM
Thanks ktani, I'll give it a try the way you suggest.

Meli
April 20th, 2008, 09:47 PM
Just chiming in a little: I have experimented a little with HALO-rinse-inspired honey rinses (as a final, leave-in rinse). I tried different amounts of honey, and twice I happened to get too much honey which made my ends crunchy. Both times, a short rinse with water was enough to remove the crunchiness and make my hair soft again. So with small amounts of honey residue, plain water may be enough to fix it - at least it is for me. (I have never had any honey residue problems except for these two rinses.)

ktani
April 20th, 2008, 09:52 PM
Meli

Thank you for that - crunchy ends have been reported with the honey lightening treatments - resolved by either a vinegar rinse or shampoo.

However, it is good to know that for you, clear water did work on diluted honey rinses - it is worth a shot, IMO, based on your report.

savi
April 21st, 2008, 02:42 AM
Hi, sorry about me barging in, but since honey is reported to bleach and cinnamon can too bleach, what about yogurt? And this question is inspired by my idiotic attemp at a face mask combining those three together. I thought it might be worth asking but I'll go away now..

ktani
April 21st, 2008, 05:21 AM
savi

You are not intruding in the least. All questions are welcome.

And you are correct.

Certain yogurts do have a peroxide value.

Yogurt has been reported not to work out too well mixed with honey for hair - the hair was reported not to feel as good afterward, compared to other recipe ingredient choices.

L. acidolphilus and probiotic yogurts produce peroxide - mixed with honey and cinnamon for a face mask sounds like a great idea, IMO.

ktani
April 21st, 2008, 11:17 AM
I will be posting recaps every few pages or so to help people keep up with the thread as it gets longer, depending on content.

ktani
April 21st, 2008, 11:22 AM
Key new developments and news in honey lightening recipes Recap 2

1. The 4 to 1 ratio of liquid to honey (oil is not included as a liquid, conditioner is included) - using this ratio - the maximum honey peroxide level is reached in one hour. The research link that refers to this ratio is here.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

2. Timing - with the 4 to 1 ratio, only 1 hour or so is needed for a honey lightening recipe to be left on the hair.

3. Do not add an ingredient with a high Vitamin C content, like lemon juice or tomto paste to a recipe - it depletes the peroxide content of the recipe and leaving it out should prevent any redarkening of hair colour following the treatment, which can be caused by Vitamin C, depending on its amount.

4. There are still no reports to date that honey lightening treatments damage hair or skin - 3% or stronger conventional peroxide can - no weakened or gummy hair reported.

5. There are no reports to date of plant or food produced peroxide - this includes the peroxide in oils, spices and yogurt - damaging hair or skin either.

6. Cinnamon has been reported to be an excellent honey lightening recipe booster, exceeding the performance of other boosters - care must be taken though - it is an irritant.

7. Mellie’s Mix - Roman chamomile, mullein and alfalfa honey in a 4 to 1 ratio with water, has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair in just over 1 hour each time (with a squeeze of lemon) and on naturally black hair with hi-lights, with a different honey, (without the squeeze of lemon) - it lightened the black hair too, on the 2nd try, in 1 hour. Lemon juice is no longer recommended - See #3 for the explanation.

8. Coconut oil, substituted for coconut cream in a recipe, with a 50% honey, 20% conditioner, 30% oil ratio, (the mix was runny), has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair. (I believe that the conditioner had a lot of water in it.)

9. From current reports, honey may cause a previously done cassia treatment to either darken or develop red tones.

Things to watch for

While it appears that darker honeys do not alter hair colour and reports thought to indicate this may instead be honey reacting with prior cassia treatments - this is still being considered and reports on this subject are welcome.

firebird
April 21st, 2008, 03:32 PM
I did a honey/cinnamon treatment over the weekend and a cassia treatment today. First, the honey/cinnamon treatment. This was after the previous honey treatment, so is a 'before' shot:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/4xhoney.jpg

I decided to try a more dilute honey mixture, so mixed 1 part honey with 2 parts conditioner and 1 part water. I wanted to use cinnamon too, but this mixture was obviously pretty watery and I wanted to really get it well into my hair, so I decided to put it on my hair first and then apply cinnamon afterwards (a method mentioned in the cinnamon thread). This turned out to be a REALLY bad idea, as anywhere I split cinnamon on my shoulders/hairline, even for a few seconds, burnt. I was surprised, as with my previous method of using cinnamon I had never had any problems. I am definitely going back to my old method - this was to mix the cinnamon with the honey etc first, apply to head in shower avoiding scalp as much as possible, put hair in plastic disposable shower cap, shower off well and wipe hairline, then either keep cap on or let hair down over towels. I used this method several times with no problems at all, even though I obviously am sensitive to cinnamon. Anyway, this was my hair after one and a half hours:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/6xhoney2.jpg

I really like this colour, but of course I don't know if it's due to the honey or cinnamon. This was too much conditioner for my hair though, it doesn't feel anywhere near as soft as when I use less/no conditioner. It didn't feel crunchy or dry, just kind of lank, like it does if I try to use conditioner after washing.

Today I made a mixture of 25g cassia and enough orange juice to make a thick paste, then let it stand for an hour. I don't know if this is really necessary for dye release or not, but there was definitely dye as I now have yellow fingernails! I then added about 3 tablespoons of honey and 3 of EVOO. I know this is a lot of oil, but I have used EVOO like this in cassia before, and in my experience it makes it a lot easier to rinse and doesn't leave a residue. I left it on my hair two hours. This was my hair after:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/cassia3.jpg

It feels much better than after the honey/cinnamon, thicker, smooth and soft. I have no dryness from the cassia, or tangling.

So, I think the cinnamon/honey did bring out red this time, but the cassia/honey just made it a bit darker. Now I (doubly) wish I hadn't added cinnamon! The next honey treatment I do will be without cinnamon, I'd really like to see whether it reacts with the cassia which is now on my hair.

ktani
April 21st, 2008, 03:52 PM
I did a honey/cinnamon treatment over the weekend and a cassia treatment today. First, the honey/cinnamon treatment. This was after the previous honey treatment, so is a 'before' shot:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/4xhoney.jpg

I decided to try a more dilute honey mixture, so mixed 1 part honey with 2 parts conditioner and 1 part water. I wanted to use cinnamon too, but this mixture was obviously pretty watery and I wanted to really get it well into my hair, so I decided to put it on my hair first and then apply cinnamon afterwards (a method mentioned in the cinnamon thread). This turned out to be a REALLY bad idea, as anywhere I split cinnamon on my shoulders/hairline, even for a few seconds, burnt. I was surprised, as with my previous method of using cinnamon I had never had any problems. I am definitely going back to my old method - this was to mix the cinnamon with the honey etc first, apply to head in shower avoiding scalp as much as possible, put hair in plastic disposable shower cap, shower off well and wipe hairline, then either keep cap on or let hair down over towels. I used this method several times with no problems at all, even though I obviously am sensitive to cinnamon. Anyway, this was my hair after one and a half hours:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/6xhoney2.jpg

I really like this colour, but of course I don't know if it's due to the honey or cinnamon. This was too much conditioner for my hair though, it doesn't feel anywhere near as soft as when I use less/no conditioner. It didn't feel crunchy or dry, just kind of lank, like it does if I try to use conditioner after washing.

Today I made a mixture of 25g cassia and enough orange juice to make a thick paste, then let it stand for an hour. I don't know if this is really necessary for dye release or not, but there was definitely dye as I now have yellow fingernails! I then added about 3 tablespoons of honey and 3 of EVOO. I know this is a lot of oil, but I have used EVOO like this in cassia before, and in my experience it makes it a lot easier to rinse and doesn't leave a residue. I left it on my hair two hours. This was my hair after:

http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/cassia3.jpg

It feels much better than after the honey/cinnamon, thicker, smooth and soft. I have no dryness from the cassia, or tangling.

So, I think the cinnamon/honey did bring out red this time, but the cassia/honey just made it a bit darker. Now I (doubly) wish I hadn't added cinnamon! The next honey treatment I do will be without cinnamon, I'd really like to see whether it reacts with the cassia which is now on my hair.

firebird

From your first before pictures - post honey treatments but pre cinnamon honey treatments - your hair has less of a richer colour - there is no reddish tinge to it.

First set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

2nd set of pictures
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=60047&postcount=254

The problem is that you used cassia in between - so determining whether the cinnamon added any colour or the honey is reacting with the cassia is a bit difficult - if I have this all straight. Also the lighting in the pictures varies - that is always a challenge.

Looking at the latest honey cinnamon result - I see more lightening, less red.

However - post cassia with honey added - your hair is definitely redder IMO - so I think that it is a honey cassia reaction.

firebird
April 21st, 2008, 04:06 PM
Thanks ktani, I see what you mean. The more I look at the pictures, the harder I find it is to tell what is redder/lighter! I'm going to discipline myself to experiment with one thing at a time, and drop the cinnamon for now, as I'd really like to find out more about how honey and cassia possibly interact.

ktani
April 21st, 2008, 04:19 PM
firebird

This is a straight cinnamon and conditioner, no honey result from the cinnamon thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=43681&postcount=25

I do not see added red - it is a bit lighter but there was red in the hair before too.

And these are honey cinnamon results on black hair - from the net - there is more brown than red that I see. Click on each picture to enlarge.
http://public.fotki.com/kittikat24/my-cinnamon-highlig/my-cinnamon-highlights!/

What we do not know is - how long it takes - if there is any cinnamon colour - for it to wash out.

This is going to very interesting, IMO.

ktani
April 21st, 2008, 05:41 PM
firebird

Here are pictures of what cinnamon colour is supposed to look like. Your hair does not appear more brown or golden in any picture to me.

Cinnamon dye flake colour
http://www.onestopcandle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OSC&Product_Code=DFCN025&Category_Code=CDF (http://www.onestopcandle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=OSC&Product_Code=DFCN025&Category_Code=CDF)

Cinnamon colour - considered to be yellow/brown
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cinnamon (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cinnamon)

ETA: My mistake for not finding the the right information on cassia cinnamon, the one probably most often used in honey lightening treatments.
According to this, See " Cinnamon and cassia"cassia is "generally a medium to light reddish brown..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon

The more complicated question to me is - in your case - (lynnala used honey only) - whether the cinnamon reacted with the cassia in addition to the honey - to produce red.

Jeni
April 21st, 2008, 05:45 PM
In light of the current discussions on cassia, honey and hair colour changes, I find these excerpts from a recent thread, particularly interesting.

Originally posted by Jeni
"and bowl 3-100% cassia, mixed with tea and water."
"The side with 100% cassia is red, slightly, very slightly, lighter then the 50/50, but still very much henna red. I'm confused, why is my hair red? All 3 samples came out pretty close to the same color... Could it of been the tea? "
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2020 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=2020)

There were several theories in the following posts as to why these results may have occurred.

From the information in the links I posted earlier today in this thread - I think that it was the tea, possibly reacting with the chrysophanic acid in the cassia the same way honey may have on firebird's hair.

In lynnala's case, it may be that the honey in the rinse she used was too diluted to help the chrysophanic acid turn red, and just turned it gold instead.

*Off topic*
Hi, just to let everyone know, it was the tea. I just did a cassia treatment (EVOO, coconut oil, warm water and a squirt of 3MM), no red hair, though my hair is now more golden blond less light ash blond. In case anyone is interested the red hair is still there, apperntly the tea is tuff stuff. Looks really kind of cool braided with my blond hair, so Im not too upset about it....

Jeni

ktani
April 21st, 2008, 05:51 PM
Jeni

Thank you so much for posting - you are not off topic at all.

It goes to cassia being subject to colour change with additives - tea in your case for red.

In firebird's case for red, I think it is the honey, possibly the cinnamon too but honey was added to the cassia - the only cinnamon would be what might be left on her hair from the honey cinnamon treatment. In lynnala's case, it appears that the honey rinse reacted with a cassia treatment that was fading. So - you never know but the odds I think, favour the honey.

And thank you for posting your new recipe to illustrate the point and the new results.

I am sure that the colours all blend beautifully.

It is very interesing IMO, that the red is long lasting in your case - whether that is desired or not.

ktani
April 22nd, 2008, 09:48 AM
Jeni used organic black chai tea mixed with cassia.

I was not sure exactly what spices were in the tea.

Here are 2 slightly different ingredient lists for black chai tea.

"Organic Cinnamon Bark, Organic Cardamom Seed, Organic Ginger Root and Organic Clove Bud ..."
http://www.tealand.com/Black_Chai_Tea.aspx

"... Black tea, Clove, Star Anise, Ginger, Safflower, Cardamom and Cinnamon."
http://www.inpursuitoftea.com/Classic_Chai_p/bh100.htm

This gets even more interesting now IMO, in light of the fact that other spices have been considered for honey lightening recipes, like cardamom.

It may turn out, that for cassia users, certain spices should be left out of honey lightening recipes.

Perhaps cinnamon has more of an effect on cassia than I thought.

And the effect of honey on cassia colour needs to be further explored, IMO.

brok3nwings
April 22nd, 2008, 12:00 PM
is it ok to make a citric rinse after the treatment? lemon juice with water rinse??? I need an answer quickly please :)

ktani
April 22nd, 2008, 12:14 PM
brok3nwings

After the treatment is rinsed or washed out - that should be no problem, IMO.

Both citric acid and lemon juice rinses should be very well diluted as I understand it, in any case, to prevent them from being drying and rinsed out too.

I recommend using either rinse only very well diluted following a honey lightening treatment and rinsing it out, if you do not want to use a weak vinegar rinse.

ktani
April 22nd, 2008, 02:09 PM
I edited my previous post on the colour of cinnamon by adding this information and link.

My mistake for not finding the the right information on cassia cinnamon, the one probably most often used in honey lightening treatments.
According to this, See " Cinnamon and cassia" cassia is "generally a medium to light reddish brown..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon)

True cinnamon is yellow/brown.

There is also this to consider about cassia cinnamon IMO.

Cheaper kinds of Cassia cinnamon See “Constituents” can have “greater quantities of mucilage” This may mean that more of it is left on the hair after a treatment - leading to the possibility that if a cassia treatment were used afterward - there may be enough of something left for cassia obovata to react with.
http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/c/cassia31.html#con (http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/c/cassia31.html)

brok3nwings
April 22nd, 2008, 02:12 PM
ktani thank you for being so nice and helpful! :)

I actually did a vinegar rinse (apple vinegar) and then rinsed with water again..and then did a rinse that never tried before to condition

a bit of honey
2 drops of jojoba oil
a bit of shea butter
a bit of Honeysuckle conditioner from Aubrey Organics
a drop of my leave in

when i say a bit is about a teaspoon?
well, my hair went wierd when i put this rinse in my hair...so i quickly rinsed it again with water (had no time had to run out) now my hair is taking ages to dry but it feels soft so im going to see how it goes ;) I dont know if you saw my thread on the "Mane Forum" that i was so sad about my hair dryness but actually it seams pretty soft right now. Lets see...hope its ok so i dont have to buy cones (my problem isnt trying them again , but actually spending money on my conditioner from Redken that is a bit expensive..)

I will report later, thank you again Ktani :bowtome:

ktani
April 22nd, 2008, 02:32 PM
brok3nwings

You are most welcome.

Both honey and shea butter can leave residues.

All that means is that if you do continue with the rinse - you may need at one point to clarify - not because of the honey but because of the shea butter.

For now, if your hair feels soft - that is what is important, IMO.

You would need to clarify if you used cones - depending on much and what kind, in any case.

Jojoba oil, a liquid wax, can build-up too but at 2 drops at a time - it will take a good while for that to happen, IMO.

I forgot to ask, lol - any lightening from the honey treatment?

brok3nwings
April 22nd, 2008, 03:11 PM
ktani, i am still waiting to my hair completly dry, it seams that when my hair is well treated it takes AGESSS to dry ... i washed it about 3 hours ago and it is still very damp. But i will report..i did a treatment with 70 percent Bee Honey and 30 percent Aubreu Organics conditioner, i did the treatment mostly for the conditioning this time..but i dont really mind the lightening! So lets see..
About the build up, i believe it will happen if i keep doing this rinse, but its the first time and a few days ago i washed my hair with Redken Cleansing shampoo (it is a pretty strong one) so i believe i have no cones left (last time i used cones was at the first week of January). Is there any way of claryfing without using these kind of shampoos? I dont have acess to the shampoos most of you have acess..and the natural ones that they sell here the most common brand is Logona (that i dont like very much) and i havent seen any specific claryfing shampoo... if there is any commercial one like Redken, Loreal, etc that has a better shampoo than this one that i used i would love to know about. Anyway...I will only use it to time to time. I have tried one time the baking soda but i think it made my hair dry...thats the only two things i know for claryfing.
Lets see about lightnening...

ktani
April 22nd, 2008, 03:22 PM
brokn3wings

The only things I know of personally are the clarifying shampoos and treatments.

I have read mixed reviews on baking soda - some people love it - others do not.

Years ago, I overdid Redken Cleansing Cream shampoo - not good but that was I am sure, an older formula.

Where exactly are you located?

I am sure that a decent sulphate shampoo without too many additives can remove most residue - even from products.

Paula Begoun seems to think so in her books - although that may depend on what products.

brok3nwings
April 22nd, 2008, 04:15 PM
i am on Lisbon, Portugal Ktani, so most of the commercial brands i have here...but i dont have Suave or VO5 or any like that. But i actually do like more the hairdressers brands..i can actually see the diference between them and the supermarket shampoos. I am sure that this is a new formula but anyway, it is not something to be used reguraly, i would say about once in two or three weeks. I used it to take out the colour of my hair...and it was able to do it without damage. If you have any sugestion please tell me. I have a natural shampoo with chamomile that has sulfates ( i dont normaly use it because of that), but even the JASON shampoo that i am using, dont have sulfates but seams to dry my hair so maybe it also cleans a lot!

ktani
April 22nd, 2008, 04:19 PM
brok3nwings

Interesting that the Redken Cleansing Cream strips colour.

I do not know what to recommend where you are - you seem to be doing fine.

There are shampoos within most salon brands that deep clean.

Aveda Detoxifier is one that is reported on makeupalley.com to be gentle and effective.

Here are the reviews - the ingredients are listed in one of the reviews. I do not know if you can get Aveda where you are - it tends to be expensive here in Canada.
http://www.makeupalley.com/product/showreview.asp/ItemId=41571/Detoxifier/Aveda/Shampoo

ktani
April 22nd, 2008, 06:33 PM
Ok, going back to the research on chrysophanic acid changing colour in different acid solutions.

Perhaps if the solution the cassia is mixed with is acidic in just the right way like Jeni's tea that has cinnamon in it - you can get orange-red tones.

The mysery to me is that in one case, firebird's, the cassia treatment was applied after the cinnamon honey treatment - she got red tones. But firebird mixed honey in with the cassia and she mixed orange juice in with the cassia too.

The orange juice may have tipped the acidity just enough for the red tones. It is the one aspect of this that I did not realize may be important.

lynalla had a faded cassia senna treatment on her hair and a honey rinse, applied long after the cassia treatment, gave her darker gold tones.
The honey rinse may have had just the right acidity to do that.

ktani
April 22nd, 2008, 11:09 PM
Looking at firebird's results again, with the research in mind and additional information from firebird.

Vitamin C depletes the peroxide in honey when the 2 ingredients are mixed, or if Vitamin C is present in the honey.

Honey produces its maximum amount of peroxide in 1 hour, when it is diuted in a 4 to 1 ratio of liquid to honey.

The chrysophanic acid in cassia can yield different colours with different acid solutions.

firebird recently did another successful honey cinnamon lightening treatment. Her hair lightened as it had before, with a similar honey and cinnamon recipe.

She followed that a couple of days later with a cassia recipe. The cassia was first mixed with orange juice, then 1 hour later, honey and EVOO were added to it, and the treatment was applied to freshly washed hair (I checked with firebird on her cassia mix, method and application).

The honey was not diluted before adding it to the cassia and would not have been well diluted in the mix. That would cause it to produce less peroxide than possible during the 2 hour treatment - the cassia mix was a thick paste before the addition of the honey and the EVOO.

Orange juice is high in Vitamin C. That would have depleted the peroxide in both the honey and the EVOO. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so.

In this case, I think that there was more Vitamin C than there was peroxide in the cassia treatment, while the treatment was on the hair.

I also think that because of that fact, the orange juice, together with the mostly undiluted honey, would have been the right acid mix to produce red/gold tones in the cassia.

firebird's hair following the cassia, orange juice, honey, EVOO, treatment was both darker and reddish.

IMO, it makes sense. I do not know at this point, what if any possible cinnamon residue, from the honey lightening treatment, might have contributed to her results.

firebird
April 23rd, 2008, 12:08 PM
ktani, that makes sense. I was forgetting about the vitamin C in the orange juice. I am going to do another honey treatment in the next few days, will post the results.

ktani
April 23rd, 2008, 12:16 PM
Thanks firebird

It took me a while to reword that post to make it clear to me what exactly I was thinking about the information, from the research and your added information.

I look forward to reading your new results.

ktani
April 24th, 2008, 07:14 AM
Cardamom was reported in the source on the peroxide level of spices, to have the highest level of all of the spices named.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

Cardamom can be an irritant too but it appears that it may be less of one than cinnamon.

Turmeric can yield a bright yellow colour and nutmeg has irritant propertis too.

See "Adverse Reactions" for nutmeg
"Allergy, contact dermatitis, and asthma have been reported..."
http://www.drugs.com/npp/nutmeg.html



Cardamom and skin

This is one of the 2 common types of cardamom
“Contact sensitivity to cardamom and to certain terpenoid compounds … in the dried seeds was reported …
No evidence has been presented of irritation from Oil of Cardamom in perfumes …” Note: A constituent of cinnamon oil is the major irritant reported but it is not peroxide.
http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermZ/ZING.html (http://bodd.cf.ac.uk/BotDermFolder/BotDermZ/ZING.html)

Spice factory workers and skin irritation - cinnamon was found to be a common irritant. Half of the workers reported skin irritation symptoms from different spices.
“Irritant patch test reactions were seen from powders of cardamom …”
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0536.1993.tb03538.x?journalCode=cod (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1600-0536.1993.tb03538.x?journalCode=cod)

“cardamom. Terpene … major constituents … can be a skin irritant and sensitizer.”
http://www.paulaschoice.com.au/learn/dictionary.asp?keys=sensitizer&type=FIND (http://www.paulaschoice.com.au/learn/dictionary.asp?keys=sensitizer&type=FIND)

Cardamom may be a better choice than cinnamon as a honey lightening booster although again - caution is recommended.

"Contact dermatitis ... reported after single exposure and repeated use of cinnamon...." See "Adverse Reactions" Note: I have posted this link and information before - reports in this thread on the overuse of cinnamon and in the cinnamon thread support this information.
http://www.drugs.com/npp/cinnamon.html



Cardamom
"The two main genera of the ginger family that are named as forms of cardamom ...
Elettaria (commonly called cardamom, green cardamom, or true cardamom) ...
Amomum (commonly known as black cardamom, brown cardamom, Kravan, Java cardamom, Bengal cardamom, Siamese cardamom, white or red cardamom) ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom

Cardamom safety from the source on the peroxide values of spices. Note: the reference is for theraputic doses, not topical use, specifically.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=8AJkBmPDRUUC&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=cardamom+contraindications&source=web&ots=MKC8ue0wAF&sig=0dQ-CUw_GftW7QnKWidwF2Yfp1U&hl=en

Cardamom safety
See "Safety"
"No toxicity ... reported for cardamom ... care needs to be taken that the plant being used is cardamom ... not a substitute."
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_western_medicine.html

ktani
April 24th, 2008, 08:12 AM
I cannot stress enough or repeat too often IMO, that care be taken with ingredients that one is not familiar with for the use intended - please patch test and use carefully after thoroughly researching an ingredient's safety.

That said, I am reposting information on the traditional uses of cardamom.


Skincare and other uses for Cardamom

"... traditional uses of cardamom to treat skin conditions ... it has been used traditionally to treat areas of the body that have red-pigmentation." http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html (http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html)

"Cardamom oil is aromatic with antibaterial properties ... used in cosmetics and chewing gums.
"Cardamon oil ... used in cosmetics because of its cooling properties ... easily incorporated into different solutions.
http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_other_uses.html (http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_other_uses.html)

See "Hand picked"
“The ancient Egyptians chewed cardamom to whiten their teeth and ... sweeten their breath.
Applied topically, cardamom .... used as an insect repellent."
http://pr.sv.net/aw/2006/January2006/english/pages002.htm

Cardamom essential oil, (which is much more concentrated than the oil you would get from the seeds normally) as with most essential oils, should not be used straight or undiluted, IMO.
Cardamom whole natural essential oil
http://www.libertynatural.com/msd/1914.htm

ktani
April 24th, 2008, 11:19 AM
An interesting note on turmeric, IMO.

See "Chemistry"
"The major yellow pigment ... identified as curcumin"
See "Skin conditions"
"An in vitro study demonstrated protective effects of curcumin against hydrogen peroxide ... "
http://www.drugs.com/npp/turmeric.html


Even though turmeric is reported to have a high peroxide value, its yellow pigment curcumin, has been reported to work against hydrogen peroxide.

I think that it does this exactly the same way that Vitamin C does, and would cause its peroxide value and other peroxide it comes in contact with to be depleted under certain circumstances. Both curcumin and Vitamin C are antioxidants.

Honey does not produce hydrogen peroxide unless it is diluted. If a honey naturally contains Vitamin C, the peroxide produced on dilution oxidizes the Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so.

IMO, turmeric would not make a good or effective honey lightening booster. It would no doubt deplete the peroxide value of the recipe.

ktani
April 24th, 2008, 12:26 PM
Black pepper is a known irritant and I do not recommend that it be used in any recipe for skin or hair.

However, a compound of black pepper together with synthetic derivatives is currently making the news because it helps stimulate skin pigmentation.
http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=48bd4b6f-838c-4a4d-a267-f729c5f71da9 (http://www.canada.com/topics/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=48bd4b6f-838c-4a4d-a267-f729c5f71da9)

brok3nwings
April 24th, 2008, 03:37 PM
Oh ktani i think im doing it all wrong! I did not know that the honey HAD to be diluted...what iīve been doing is about 4 parts honey to about 2 parts conditioner (a heavy one) to not let the mix get into my face (i hate when that happens) so does this mean that the honey i put on my hair doesnt produce the peroxide? :(

ktani
April 24th, 2008, 03:51 PM
brok3nwings

Most conditioners have some water in them but if your conditioner is thick and heavy, even if the honey was a little diluted - you might not get lightening, depending on the conditioner's ingredients.

Too many waxy type ingredients, ploymers and oils can interefere with the peroxide honey produces.

Aussie Cleanse and Mend is reported to be one such conditioner. Honey does not produce peroxide if it is not diluted.

Here is the post with the honey lightening basics.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=16864&postcount=31

Here is a post that explains the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio - to get the maximum peroxide amount from honey in 1 hour.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=74809&postcount=391

And here is a link that has more information on the honey lightening treatment recommended method.
http://chatter.thebeautybottle.com/showpost.php?p=17958&postcount=8

ktani
April 25th, 2008, 07:32 AM
This is about ingesting cassia cinnamon.

I love the taste of cinnamon in food.

The cinnamon I buy at the grocery store here in Canada just says ground cinnamon - no species or plant name given - very helpful - not.

One nugget of information buried in the Wiki link on the differences between true cinnamon and cassia cinnamon is the difference in coumarin content. See "Cinnamon and cassia."

"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarket) in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... coumarin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coumarin).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon#cite_note-0) This is contained in much lower dosages in Cinnamomum burmannii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamomum_burmannii) ... Coumarin ... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon#Cinnamon_and_cassia

ETA: I am not the least bit shy about asking hard questions if I want to know something. I just ask nicely. I just got off the phone with the company that sells the cinnamon I buy. Even though their website says that cinnamon can be true cinnamon or cassia, the rep told me that their cinnamon is pure cassia cinnamon. Here is the interesting part.

The cassia cinnamon they get is monitored and only accepted if it contains between 10 parts per billion and 4 parts per million coumarin, under their quality control measures.
Nice to know that some companies are being responsible.

ktani
April 25th, 2008, 08:26 AM
More on coumarin in food.

This site is well researched and may be of interest to anyone who wants to know more about spices.

According to the author, in Germany, coumarin in any type of food is limited to 2 parts per million. See "Main constituents"
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_cas.html

ktani
April 25th, 2008, 08:33 AM
This information is right on the mark in terms of cassia cinnamon, cosmetics containing coumarin and this thread.

"The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake

natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. This plant ingredient is found in woodruff and sweet clover and there are higher levels in cassia cinnamon, too. ... synthetically produced coumarin is added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment (BfR) has evaluated the analytical results .... in order to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. The result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

ktani
April 25th, 2008, 11:28 AM
How to tell cassia cinnamon and true cinnamon apart

This link has pictures and details. The link that they ask people to click on does not say that Germany banned imports of cassia cinnamon. It may have at one time. However, the other information as far as I can determine is both very helpful and accurate.

I think that I could now tell the 2 apart if I were to see the products in stick form. In powder form, that would be more difficult. I really like this link.
From previous research, true cinnamon oil has the same constituent that cassia cinnamon oil does and it is considered to be an irritant too.

The coumarin content amounts are significantly different.
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm

firebird
April 25th, 2008, 02:58 PM
That's really interesting about cinnamon and coumarin. I never knew about coumarins in cosmetics, it's good to know. Thanks again ktani for all your research! It seems like cardamon could be a safer alternative, although I guess if you are careful about not getting cinnamon on your skin, it would be fine too.

Since doing the cassia/honey treatment, I have done two honey treatments. Cassia has definitely made my hair darker, but to me that's not really a problem, as my main issue was to blend my new growth and dyed hair, so darkening the length actually did help in that. In pictures with flash, it does look redder.

Anyway, the first honey treatment was 1 part honey and 2 parts conditioner, a 1:3 ratio, but I figured it would dilute more on the hair, as I applied it to soaking wet hair? I left it for two hours, it's hard for me to tell if affected the colour, as in the pictures I took, the lighting is darker for some reason.

In the second treatment, I decided to try tea. I found DH had some herbal tea which included cinnamon, ginger, camomile, catnip and peppermint, so I mixed 1 part honey to 3 parts tea, with a tablespoon of EVOO and cinnamon. After I washed it out, my hair felt very different from previous honey treatments - I wouldn't really call it fried, but if I made a ponytail with my hand and squeezed it, it made an audible 'crunch'. When I ran my hand over it, it felt rough, not smooth or soft like before. Maybe my hair actually did need the conditioner in the mixture? I don't think it is residue, as I shampooed it thoroughly, actually twice to get the cinnamon out. I since oiled it with EVOO and washed again, and it's fine. Again, the pictures I took came out very dark, so I'm not sure what effect it had.

I want to try Mellie's mix and cardamon, but I haven't been out much to get ingredients as DH hurt his back, meaning much time at the VA :(

ktani
April 25th, 2008, 03:21 PM
That's really interesting about cinnamon and coumarin. I never knew about coumarins in cosmetics, it's good to know. Thanks again ktani for all your research! It seems like cardamon could be a safer alternative, although I guess if you are careful about not getting cinnamon on your skin, it would be fine too.

Since doing the cassia/honey treatment, I have done two honey treatments. Cassia has definitely made my hair darker, but to me that's not really a problem, as my main issue was to blend my new growth and dyed hair, so darkening the length actually did help in that. In pictures with flash, it does look redder.

Anyway, the first honey treatment was 1 part honey and 2 parts conditioner, a 1:3 ratio, but I figured it would dilute more on the hair, as I applied it to soaking wet hair? I left it for two hours, it's hard for me to tell if affected the colour, as in the pictures I took, the lighting is darker for some reason.

In the second treatment, I decided to try tea. I found DH had some herbal tea which included cinnamon, ginger, camomile, catnip and peppermint, so I mixed 1 part honey to 3 parts tea, with a tablespoon of EVOO and cinnamon. After I washed it out, my hair felt very different from previous honey treatments - I wouldn't really call it fried, but if I made a ponytail with my hand and squeezed it, it made an audible 'crunch'. When I ran my hand over it, it felt rough, not smooth or soft like before. Maybe my hair actually did need the conditioner in the mixture? I don't think it is residue, as I shampooed it thoroughly, actually twice to get the cinnamon out. I since oiled it with EVOO and washed again, and it's fine. Again, the pictures I took came out very dark, so I'm not sure what effect it had.

I want to try Mellie's mix and cardamon, but I haven't been out much to get ingredients as DH hurt his back, meaning much time at the VA :(

firebird

I am sorry to read about your DH hurting his back. I hope that he recovers soon.

Thank you for your feedback, new recipes and results.

I am glad that you found the research helpful.

The 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio is done before the treatment is applied - doing a 3 to 1 ratio will not dilute that much more on wet hair IMO, although I understand your reasoning.

The 1 part honey to 3 parts tea with EVOO and cinnamon sounds conditioning but obviously was not.

Some herbal teas are just tea with added herbs - that can make a difference in results as well.

In Mellie's Mix, the mullein contains some mucilage, which would help with smoothness.

nayver got a bit of dryness on her ends but shampooing and a vinegar rinse helped her with that.

Honey residue can be issue and so can oil residue - the 2 may have combined in your case.

I am also glad to read that your hair recovered fairly quickly.

You may find that you do not need to do both a shampoo and a vinegar rinse following Mellie's Mix.

I suggest trying it without the lemon juice for sure and without the cardamom, first.

firebird
April 25th, 2008, 05:21 PM
Hi ktani, thanks for your post and reminding me about the mullein, that definitely sounds like it would help. I'll try the 1:4 honey in future too. The tea I used was just herbs not tea, the ingredients are listed as: eleuthero, peppermint, cinnamon, ginger, chamomile, West Indian lemongrass, licorice, catnip, tilia flowers, natural lemon with other natural flavors (contains soy lecithin), hops, and Vitamins B6 and B12 (celestial seasonings 'tension tamer'). Maybe it was something in the tea? I have just tried it as a rinse to see how my hair likes it otherwise. I'll get the ingredients for Mellie's mix soon, thanks for the good wishes for my DH.

ktani
April 25th, 2008, 05:42 PM
firebird

You are most welcome.

I had no idea what eleuthero was - a new name for Siberian ginseng - fancy that! - as if there wasn't enough confusion sometimes with plant names, lol.
See "Uses"
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/DVH/HerbsWho/0,3923,552084%7CEleuthero,00.html

Tilia flowers are linden flowers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilia

I have used linden flower tea on my hair - it was darker than light blonde like catnip - I used way too much of it - it built-up - that is another story - it has mucilage in it - different plants have differents amount of it - most plants contain some.

Soy lecithin can have an effect too.

Natural lemon was no help in a honey lightening recipe - that is for sure.

There are too many ingredients to pinpoint just one as a cause of your results - bottom line - you hair did not feel good afterward, with this tea blend in the recipe.

Individually, certain herbs no doubt will react differently on your hair.

firebird
April 25th, 2008, 07:49 PM
ktani, thank you! I just did a rinse with the tea and left it on, and my hair feels really soft with no problems. Maybe it was honey/oil residue like you thought. I really just used the tea as an experiment, since I hadn't been able to get the other ingredients and was looking for something to dilute the honey with. Even though I had this problem with my latest honey treatment, 2 days later it feels fine and I've never had an long-lasting ill-effects from experimenting. It is actually in better condition than before I started honey treatments.

ktani
April 25th, 2008, 07:57 PM
firebird

Thank you for the current details.

I am so glad that your hair is once again soft.

Excellent news that the tea worked nicely as a rinse.

That tea though does contain natural lemon - not a good idea for a honey lightening recipe - the Vitamin C content - even if it is a small amount.

I am especially pleased for you that your hair is in such good condition since starting honey lightening and that you think that it is in even better condition, than before honey lightening.

ktani
April 26th, 2008, 08:49 AM
The Vitamin C content of selected ingredients, as well as the mineral and protein content.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup (which is about 3 x the Vitamin C content of raw lemom juice)

Black Pepper, 1.3 mg in 1 tbsp or 6 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c203E.html

Cardamom, ground, 1.2 mg - in 1 tbsp or 6 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c202q.html

Chamomile tea, brewed, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c212q.html

Cinnamon, ground (cassia), .3 mg in 1tbsp or 8 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c202u.html

Coconut cream, canned sweetened, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oC.html

Coconut cream, raw, 6.7 mg in 1 cup or 240 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oB.html

Coconut meat, dried, creamed, 0.4 mg or in 1 ounce or 28 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oo.html

Coconut milk, canned, 2.3 mg in 1 cup or 226 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oE.html

Coconut milk, raw, 6.7 mg in 1 cup or 240 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oD.html

Coconut oil - 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c208C.html

Extra virgin olive oil, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.edenfoods.com/store/nlea.php?products_id=104340

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Nutmeg, ground, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c2039.html

Orange juice, canned, unsweetened, 85.7 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vo.html

Orange juice, chilled, includes from concentrate, 81.9 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vp.html

Orange juice, frozen concentrate, unsweetened, diluted with 3 volume water, 96.9 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vr.html

Orange juice, frozen concentrate, unsweetened, undiluted, 393 mg in 1 cup or 284 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vq.html

Orange juice, raw, 124 mg in 1 cup or 248 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vn.html

Tomato juice, canned with salt added, 44.5 mg in 1 cup or 243 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hM.html

Tomato juice, canned without salt added, 44.5 mg in 1 cup or 243 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20li.html

Tomato paste, with salt added, 28.7 mg in 1/2 cup or 131 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20lj.html

Tomato paste, without salt added, 57.4 mg in 1 cup or 262 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hN.html

Tomato sauce, canned, 17.2 mg in 1 cup or 245 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hQ.html

Tomatoes, canned, crushed, 2.6 mg in 1 ounce or 28 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20ik.html

Turmeric, ground, 1.7 mg in 1 tbsp or 7 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c203Q.html

Nutrition facts per serving - Vitamin C content - these are American statistics - these numbers may help explain certain results apart from the natural peroxide level of the honey used in a lightening recipe.

Minerals can decompose hydrogen peroxide - in the links from Nutrition Facts, you will also find the mineral content for each item. The primary metals that can affect peroxide are iron, manganese, copper, nickel and chromium.

lynnala
April 26th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Hi all, sorry I've been absent from the honey/darkening discussion, I've had some family issues to resolve, and now I have a heck of a cold! I've been PM'ing with ktani about doing some hairball color tests, which I haven't gotten around to doing yet. But, here's a new angle: because of time constraints, I haven't used any rinse at all the last couple of washes, and my hair is still getting darker! I wash with a CV Babassu Olive bar (ingredients: saponified oils of olive, babassu, unrefined shea butter, and castor bean; and vitamin E oil) only, nothing else, no conditioner, no rinse. The mysterious thing is, my hair seems to be darkening from the roots too, which are over a month virgin from cassia treatment. It's really weird. I'm now wondering if it has something to do with menopause? Can white hair actually get darker from hormone changes?

ktani
April 26th, 2008, 03:00 PM
lynnala

Castor oil has been reported to darken hair - on the net at least.

See the 2nd post on this page
http://www.makeupalley.com/product/showreview.asp/page=2/pagesize=10/ItemID=100766/SortBy=/AgeRange=/SkinToneType=/ID=/

It would depend on how much of it is in the shampoo bar.

I think that is the culprit, not your hormones - if it is a CV bar, check with Ida to see how much castor oil is in there - some bars have been reported to be oily.

lynnala
April 26th, 2008, 03:11 PM
lynnala

Castor oil has been reported to darken hair - on the net at least.

It would depend on how much of it is in the shampoo bar.

I think that is the culprit, not your hormones - if it is a CV bar, check with Ida to see how much castor oil is in there - some bars have been reported to be oily.Really? I can't believe that some castor oil in a shampoo bar could have such a drastic effect! I mean, this is stark white hair we're talking about! Hmmmm. Now I'll have to add a castor oil test to the list! I still want to do the honey tests too.

ktani
April 26th, 2008, 03:13 PM
I went looking and edited my post to include this - read the 2nd post.
http://www.makeupalley.com/product/showreview.asp/page=2/pagesize=10/ItemID=100766/SortBy=/AgeRange=/SkinToneType=/ID=/

lynnala
April 26th, 2008, 03:22 PM
Oh my. There is already a castor oil thread here, so I'll see if anyone has had an darkening effects on the hair with it. When I finally do the honey test, I will do a castor oil test too, I'll try to get some of the pure oil.

ktani
April 26th, 2008, 03:42 PM
I missed this one - 6th post down on the page - another report of castor oil darkening hair.
http://www.makeupalley.com/product/showreview.asp/page=1/pagesize=10/ItemID=100766/SortBy=/AgeRange=/SkinToneType=/ID=/

ktani
April 26th, 2008, 03:56 PM
Cardamom's high peroxide value may be offset by its Vitamin C content, which although is only 2% per tablespoon, may be enough to make it not a better choice than cinnamon after all for a honey lightening recipe.

I believe that it is not as much of an irritant as cinnamon, but any Vitamin C in the recipe, depletes the over all recipe peroxide value.

ktani
April 26th, 2008, 08:48 PM
Math was never my strong point, lol.

Cardamom has almost 100 points on cinnamon, in terms of peroxide value.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

That may be enough to compensate for its vitamin C content at 2% per tablespoon.

If one were to use 3 tablespoons of cinnamon - theoretically you might need only 2.5 tablespoons of cardamom.

That would make it roughly 5% Vitamin C.

That could make it approximately equivalent to cinnamon in its lightening ability when you factor in the peroxide oxidizing the Vitamin C.

Patch test it first though.

I am intrigued by the anechdotal references to cardamom being used for whitening teeth and for treating skin redness. Both suggest that the peroxide value of cadamom may be strong enough to compensate for the Vitamin C content.

ETA: I just added turmeric to the Vitamin C content list on Pg 43
Turmeric, ground - 1.7 mg or 3% Vitamin C - in 1 tbsp or 7 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c203Q.html

While turmeric has only a 3% Vitamin C content per tablespoon, and it does have a higher peroxide value than cinnamon, the Vitamin C content is slightly higher than that of cardamom and the peroxide value of turmeric is lower than that of cardamom.

Serea
April 26th, 2008, 10:26 PM
hey!
I have read one of your old threads and i decided to join!
I have dark brown hair and i was going to dye it but it seems like naturally highlighting it would be my way to go!
What recipes are there for dark brown hair?
and have u heard of lipton tea lightening your hair?

ktani
April 27th, 2008, 06:19 AM
Serea

Welcome to LHC.

I have not heard of regular tea lightening hair.

The Lipton one may have lemon juice in it. Lemon juice is not recommended for addition to a honey lightening treatment.

For a honey lightening recipe on virgin hair - any of the recipes may work.

You could try just honey and a Preferred List conditioner to start, using the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio - it includes conditioner and you could add water. Try a dark honey with it.

Here is basic information and the list

"Preferred Conditioner List
Note: This list is a guide. These hair conditioners have been reported to work well in the recipes.
Alberto V05 Champagne & Strawberries, Alberto V05 Honeydew Smoothie, Alberto V05 Kiwi Lime Squeeze, Alberto VO5 Sun Kissed Raspberry, Alberto V05 Vanilla Mint Tea, Citre Shine, Herbal Essences Hello Hydration, Kiss My Face, Mane 'n Tail, Tigi Oatmeal & Honey.

Covering the hair with a plastic bag or wrap or shower cap once the treatment is applied is recommended to maintain moisture, which is essential for the honey to keep releasing the peroxide.

External heat can make the treatments less effective and is not recommended. Heat, light, and microwaving can negatively affect the enzyme in honey that produces the hydrogen peroxide."

Do not worry too much about light - store your honey in a cupboard.

Sunlight is not recommended during the treatment and is not necessary."

ktani
April 27th, 2008, 07:50 AM
This is from an Indian newspaper article - See "Castor oil" at the bottom of the page
"Castor oil can also be applied to the eyelashes to darken ..."
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010515/main8.htm (http://www.tribuneindia.com/2001/20010515/main8.htm)

ktani
April 27th, 2008, 11:16 AM
lynnala

Information from Ida's website
The differences between Ida's soaps and shampoo bars are the amounts of castor oil and the proportions and amounts of other ingredients. According to this page, the shampoo bars contain more castor oil than the soaps.
http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandcraft.com/soapvsshamp.htm

ktani
April 27th, 2008, 02:09 PM
lynnala

The only other things I can think of as to why your hair might suddenly be darkening are medication and or fish oil consumption.

There have been reports of certain medications and fish oils causing this to happen.

Here is one.
http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/archives/pharmacy_qa/will_drug_make_gray_hair_turn_black.asp

One more
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9A07E7D71F3BF93BA3575BC0A9649C8B63

And here is another.
http://www.healthcentral.com/peoplespharmacy/408/60570.html

ktani
April 27th, 2008, 04:33 PM
Someone just asked me in a pm about how honey is made.

I knew that bees make honey from pollen - it is really made from both pollen and nectar.

The actual honey making process is not one that I have researched well.

Here is a simply written explanation in the following link.

The author asks for suggestions to help improve the website - I made 2.

1. To email she askes for the country of the person emailing - Canada is not on the list. ETA: My mistake - it is at the top separately with the United States - I went through the rest of the list instead.

2. A list of the references from which she acquired her knowledge would be nice for further reading. There is a "Medical Disclaimer".

Still, I find the site to be informative and well written.
http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/how-do-bees-make-honey.html

Wiki has considerably more information and accessible references, which I prefer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey

Serea
April 27th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Thanks a bunch ktani
Yeah, so far i have been using honey mixed with water and cinnanim
after using this rinse about twice for 2o minutes each it gave me some brown highlights!
I'm still trying to find a recipe that will make my hair overall change colors!
I'll try using honey and water next times.
Lets see if there is a change!
Hmm. would this be perminent.?

ktani
April 27th, 2008, 07:12 PM
Serea

Thank you for your feedback and recipe.

The recommended minimum time a honey lightening treatment is to be left on the hair is 1 hour.

You have been doing 1/3 of that time.

If you use the 4 to 1 ratio - you should only need 1 hour.

Since you have gotten some results, your recipe is working. The cinnamon helps the recipe by boosting the peroxide level.

To get a better change in hair colour - try leaving the treatment on your hair for 1 hour with the ratio described, (4 to 1 liquid to honey).

I recommend covering the hair with plastic - a bag or wrap or shower cap, to maintain the moisture needed for the honey to keep producing peroxide during the hour.

The results should be permanent.

ktani
April 28th, 2008, 06:37 AM
If anyone wants to try cardamom in a honey lightening recipe instead of, or with cinnamon, to cut down on the amount of cinnamon to use, here are some notes on cardamom.

Cardamom

"The two main genera of the ginger family that are named as forms of cardamom ...

Elettaria (commonly called cardamom, green cardamom, or true cardamom) ...

Amomum (commonly known as black cardamom, brown cardamom, Kravan, Java cardamom, Bengal cardamom, Siamese cardamom, white or red cardamom) ...."

It appears that both the brown or black and the green forms of cardamom are used in medicine and food although the black or brown is reported to have a more "astringent aroma". See "Uses"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom)


"... traditional uses of cardamom to treat skin conditions ... it has been used traditionally to treat areas of the body that have red-pigmentation." http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html (http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html)


See "Hand picked"
“The ancient Egyptians chewed cardamom to whiten their teeth and ... sweeten their breath.
Applied topically, cardamom .... used as an insect repellent."
http://pr.sv.net/aw/2006/January2006/english/pages002.htm


and this It is recommended that one buy cardamom in the pods and then grind the seeds. Note: The substitutes named in the link below are for recipe flavour - nutmeg is an irritant and ground clove has a comparatively (to cinnamon or cardamom) very low peroxide value.

"It best to buy cardamom seeds still encased in their natural flavor-protecting pods .... discard after you remove the seeds. You can also buy cardamom without the pods, called cardamom seeds = decorticated cardamom .... the unprotected seeds lose flavor quickly. Ground cardamom seeds ... less flavorful .... Recipes that call for cardamom ... intend for you to use green cardamom ... named for the green pods .... Some producers bleach the green hulls to a pale tan .... this makes them less aromatic. .... Equivalents: One pod yields 1/6 teaspoon cardamom."
http://www.foodsubs.com/SpiceUniv.html#cardamom


Wiki though, has this to say on ground cardamom.

".... high-quality ground cardamom is often more readily (and cheaply) available, and is an acceptable substitute."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom

And ground cardamom has the highest spice peroxide value listed here.
POV - Peroxide value of cinnamon and other spices
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8...Ot2tkeW4&hl=en (http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en)

Aisha25
April 28th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Ktani I was wondering for to use molasses in soak for hair does it matter if it is sulphured or unsulphured??

ktani
April 28th, 2008, 07:45 PM
Aisha25

Molasses has been reported to darken hair. It is not recommended as an addition to a honey lightening treatment.

If you just want to condition with it, however, in a post from an old, now archived thread, a food chemist quoted in the post recommended about molasses that

Originally posted by Gladtobemom

"Molasses can be an antibiotic if it has a lot of sulphur in it (some does).
It can be a really bad source of fungus so buy it in small quantities and use fairly soon after cracking the seal on a jar. Not too likely if you buy it in a glass jar.
If you buy it in bulk, make sure it is blackstrap molasses (high in sulphur and other minerals that inhibit microbial growth)."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=807963&postcount=8 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=807963&postcount=8)

Aisha25
April 28th, 2008, 07:55 PM
Oh ok thank you ktani so only if your going to buy lots of it it should be sulphured.Thank you so much.I can always count on you.:flower:

ktani
April 28th, 2008, 07:59 PM
Aisha25

You are most welcome.

The credit here really goes to Gladtobemom for writing excellent posts, 1 or 2 of which I saved as text as well as the link.

ktani
April 29th, 2008, 05:56 AM
There are several versions of the following article on the net. Not all the them have the same information.

From results here and elsewhere on the boards, excessive cinnamon use can "burn" the skin - temporarily causing redness and discomfort with thankfully no lasting results, in the cases reported.

Also, I am not sure about the red tones cinnamon can impart.
firebird's last results, I think were more of a cassia, orange juice, honey, EVOO result.

firebird's previous results, right after a honey cinnamon lightening treatment did not look that red to me but definitely did look lighter and she had been doing the same cassia mix treatments in between honey cinnamon treatments.

Here is the article. See "Tips" then See "Warnings" Also See the "discussion page".
http://www.wikihow.com/Lighten-Your-Hair-With-Cinnamon

Here is a 2nd version - no mention of red tones or possible cinnamon irritation. See "Tips & Warnings"
http://www.ehow.com/how_2146927_lighten-hair-cinnamon.html

ktani
April 29th, 2008, 08:24 AM
This is also from the net - a picture of a honey cinnamon result on henndigoed hair.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2397912505/

More pictures from the same link - the comparison before picture too, with the honey cinnamon result on henndigoed hair picture being the last one shown.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

I would love to know ...

How many honey cinnamon treatments it took to get this result?

What was her exact recipe - honey cinnamon and water? conditioner? if so, what conditioner? the proportions? dilution?

ktani
April 29th, 2008, 06:19 PM
Ok, I left a comment on her page and invited her to view this thread and possibly join LHC.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/comments/

bizarrogirl
April 30th, 2008, 08:21 AM
Hi! I got ktani's request to come join the thread on Flickr. I've already been lurking around LHC for ages, but rarely post.

Anyway, that first honey/cinn result was just from one treatment, but I slept on it. It was about 8 hours. I didn't measure much, I just glopped about 1/4c honey into a roughly equal amount of V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner, and dumped in a bunch of cinnamon. Maybe 6 T worth.

I've been planning to do one more treatment (but I'm out of honey) and then re-do my henna with a greater proportion of amla to try to get a more golden brown effect. It's all just wacky uncontrolled experimentation!

:)

ktani
April 30th, 2008, 09:41 AM
bizarrogirl

Thank you so much for replying with your information. I very much appreciate you posting.

I never thought to check the LHC members list!

I had noticed on your page that you use baq henna as some members do here.

There must have been enough water in the V05 conditoner to dilute the honey well.

I am glad for you that you did not report any irritation from the cinnamon.

Your results are fantastic. Your hair also looks shiny and in great condition.

If you try the recipe again, increase the liquid content, not with more conditioner but with added water - if the ratio goes to 4 to 1 liquid to honey, conditioner included, you should only need 1 hour to get the maximum result.

ktani
April 30th, 2008, 10:02 AM
From reports, a honey cinnamon recipe can lighten colour-treated hair- firebird's, virgin hair - also firebird's - her roots, and now, thanks to bizarrogirl, henndigoed hair as well.

ktani
April 30th, 2008, 10:31 AM
There are now 4 honey lightening recipes that have been reported to be successful on henndigoed hair.

1. Viviane's recipe - equal parts of coconut cream, honey and silicone free conditioner - coconut oil can be substituted for the coconut cream.

2. Javadandy's recipe - honey, conditioner and coconut oil, 50/20/30.

3. Mellie's Mix - 1 tblsp Roman chamomile, 1 tblsp mullein, 1/4 cup alfalfa honey, squeeze of lemon, 1 cup water - I recommend no lemon squeeze (Vitamin C).

4. bizarrogirl's recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 1/4 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner, 6 tblsp cinnamon.

Mellie is the only one who reported that her results were achieved in about an hour, or a little more.

Mellie is also the only one whose recipe just happens to be the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio, that I now know, from a research link, gets the maximum peroxide result from honey in 1 hour.

ktani
April 30th, 2008, 02:23 PM
I am going to try to bring these recipes up to the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio. Based on what I have read, most conditioners are about 70 to 90% water.


1. Viviane's recipe - equal parts of coconut cream, honey and silicone free conditioner - coconut oil can be substituted for the coconut cream.

Coconut cream, if you just use the thick part of it, or coconut oil does not count as a liquid. That means you would have to add about 3/4 cup water to the recipe or possibly added conditioner.

2. Javadandy's recipe - honey, conditioner and coconut oil, 50/20/30.

For this recipe you would need to add close to 1 cup water, maybe a little less or more conditioner. The conditioner she used was thin.

3. bizarrogirl's recipe - 1/4 cup honey, 1/4 cup V05 Kiwi Lime Conditioner, 6 tblsp cinnamon.

For this recipe, 3/4 cup water, mabe a bit less, should work, or increased conditioner - the V05 conditioner I believe, is on the thin side.


You could, depending on a conditioner's consistency, add more of that ingredient. Yes, the added liquid will result in a drippy recipe. The upside though is that you will not have to sleep in it, or have the recipe covered, on your hair, for much longer than an hour to get the maximum results from it.

Added liquid should also help prevent cinnamon irritation in a honey cinnamon recipe for those sensitive to it - the recipe will be more diluted but should work even better. For a honey cinnamon recipe, added conditioner, depending on consistency, may buffer the cinnamon's effect on the scalp and skin.

Another advantage, again due to the dilution, will no doubt be a reduction in possible honey residue after the treatment. That can be resolved with a weak vinegar rinse - white vinegar for blondes (apple cider vinegar can impart gold or red tones to hair), or shampoo, if necessary.

Serea
April 30th, 2008, 05:43 PM
Hey y'all!
I've been off experimenting and results are looking good.
I misted 1/6 cup of honey, 3/6 water, 1/6 cinnamin in damp hair with no conditioner
but some sections are more lighter than other but it gave off more of a highlighted affect.
I left it in for about 2 hours
I'll take pictures next post if i can!

ktani
April 30th, 2008, 05:56 PM
Serea

Thank you for the recipe details and feedback.

Great news that you are seeing more results with the added time!

Try adding a bit more water next time, to bring the dilution up to 4 to 1, water to honey - you would then only need to leave the treatment on your hair for a little over 1 hour.

Did you keep the hair covered during the treatment or did you just mist it during the 2 hours?

Hair naturally is usually a mix of colours and can sometimes be lighter in some areas from being "weathered" - exposed to more sunlight than other areas.

Those areas would lighten more from the recipe.

I look forward to seeing your pictures.

Serea
April 30th, 2008, 07:10 PM
I cover it shower cap!
I'm doing it right now as i type lol.
But all the hair is sagging at the bottom and I'm afraid it might be lighter than the top!
We'll find out!

ktani
April 30th, 2008, 07:43 PM
Serea

I pin my hair up when I do my catnip recipe on my hair length, then cover it with a freezer bag, that is large enough to cover the nape area well too.

I hope that those ideas help.

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 07:02 AM
I checked with bizarrogirl on her henndigo and henna treatments.

She had done 2 henndigo applications before trying the honey cinnamon treatment - the last henndigo - about 8 weeks before the honey cinnamon result.

For bizarrogirl, indigo fades somewhat in between treatments - it lightens and reddens on its own but not completely.

IMO, her honey cinnamon result is amazing.

She has been doing straight henna treatments for almost a year - the henna in the picture here - in "natural daylight", does not look that strong, considering that it is baq henna - as per her flickr page.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2397912505/

See details under the picture "and from the other side" for her baq henna recipe.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 07:34 AM
Bizarrogirl's latest honey cinnamon result.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

I have one word for it - WOW!

The details are there too - under the picture - this result - with a 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution was achieved in only 1 hour and with 1/3 less cinnamon than the first treatment.

bizarrogirl - how is the condition of your hair following this 2nd treatment?

bizarrogirl
May 1st, 2008, 08:31 AM
It's very "slippy" and very smooth -- almost too much so, since my hair is very fine. I'm not noticing any damage at all.

Added benefit: my hair smells like cinnamon for AGES. The scent seems to refresh every time it gets wet for a while. Which must mean it didn't get all rinsed out, but I rinsed for a really long time ... huh.

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 08:39 AM
bizarrogirl

Thank you for the details on the condition of your hair.

I am pleased for you that there are no signs of damage - your report of no damage is consistant with all other reports on honey cinnamon lightening and honey lightening in general - minus the one report I have previously commented on, that I believe was a honey residue result.

That report was about dry ends - not weakened or gummy hair - which conventional peroxide can cause to happen.

You may have fine hair but it looks like you have a lot of it.

Your hair is beautiful - and now it is fragrant too, lol.

The fragrance may not mean that you did not rinse well enough - the oil from cinnamon is used in the perfume industry - the odour may just linger in the hair from the oil naturally present in the ground cinnamon that you used.

I love the scent of cinnamon too!

firebird
May 1st, 2008, 04:04 PM
Wow, bizarrogirl, you have great results and beautiful hair! I wish I could get the cinnamon scent to stay in my hair.

I've experimented more with lightening treatments, and agree with ktani that it's the cassia/honey treatment and not cinnamon which gives my hair a slight red tint. The only times I have noticed the red have been after/soon after doing the cassia/honey. Also, the first time I noticed the redness was after cassia/honey and before I even started using cinnamon.

I have now found the best mixture for me, which is 1 part honey, 1 part conditioner and 2 parts camomile tea. When I can get some mullein, I will add that to the camomile. About every other treatment, I add about 2 tablespoons of cinnamon. I tried without conditioner in the mixture, but conditioner makes the mixture a bit thicker and therefore easier to apply, and also my hair is softer if I use it. Weirdly enough, I can use 50% honey without conditioner and have very soft hair without residue, but when I recently tried 25% honey without it, it seemed a bit dry (but nothing washing again and oiling couldn't fix, no big deal, just interesting). I have been using it regularly and still no damage. It is still lightening, though every time I do cassia it gets a bit darker again. This is ok with me, as I was mainly trying to blend the different colours in my hair. Thanks again ktani for all your work and help to those of us trying to lighten!

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 04:26 PM
firebird

You are most welcome.

Thank you for your feedback and new recipes.

I am glad that you figured out where the red tones are coming from.

It makes things easier when you know what your ingredients are capable of in a recipe.

It may be - that the honey cassia will not add red tones without the orange juice. The pH of honeys vary but they are less acidic than orange juice.

I agree that conditioner can be better medium for some people to apply the treatment - only for comfort though - not results - it is a personal choice.

I would keep the same honey amount - the 50% if that is what you prefer and increase the liquid content to the 4 to 1 ratio - that should give you both the conditioning that you would like and the lightening that you want - faster.

You can use conditioner - if it is thin, as part of the liquid content as bizarrogirl did in her treatment..

firebird
May 1st, 2008, 04:35 PM
Thanks ktani, I am going crazy because I do use a 4:1 ratio but somehow when I posted that I had 4 in my head and made the parts add to 4 instead of 5...I actually meant 2 parts conditioner, not one.

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 04:44 PM
firebird

No worries.

I have to take a minute to figure out the ratio when writing about it, lol.

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 04:46 PM
firebird

Any new pictures? - hint hint.

firebird
May 1st, 2008, 04:48 PM
ktani - yes, I keep the conditioner for comfort only - I didn't see any difference in actual lightening between with/without it.

firebird
May 1st, 2008, 04:49 PM
Yes, I will post more pictures soon!

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 04:56 PM
firebird

Unless the conditioner is top heavy in waxy ingredients, film formers and oil, like Aussie Cleanse and Mend, there is no reason that you should see a difference in lightening results.

Everyone has to find their own comfort level with the treatment recipes.

However, I do believe that the 4 to 1 ratio is the best way to achieve results both for lightening and saving time.

I look forward to seeing your new pictures.

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 09:11 PM
I will be doing a 3rd recap soon.

The 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio is reported to be a success for both bizarrogirl and firebird with their recipes.

ktani
May 1st, 2008, 09:39 PM
Wow, bizarrogirl, you have great results and beautiful hair! I wish I could get the cinnamon scent to stay in my hair.

I've experimented more with lightening treatments, and agree with ktani that it's the cassia/honey treatment and not cinnamon which gives my hair a slight red tint. The only times I have noticed the red have been after/soon after doing the cassia/honey. Also, the first time I noticed the redness was after cassia/honey and before I even started using cinnamon.

I have now found the best mixture for me, which is 1 part honey, 1 part conditioner and 2 parts camomile tea. When I can get some mullein, I will add that to the camomile. About every other treatment, I add about 2 tablespoons of cinnamon. I tried without conditioner in the mixture, but conditioner makes the mixture a bit thicker and therefore easier to apply, and also my hair is softer if I use it. Weirdly enough, I can use 50% honey without conditioner and have very soft hair without residue, but when I recently tried 25% honey without it, it seemed a bit dry (but nothing washing again and oiling couldn't fix, no big deal, just interesting). I have been using it regularly and still no damage. It is still lightening, though every time I do cassia it gets a bit darker again. This is ok with me, as I was mainly trying to blend the different colours in my hair. Thanks again ktani for all your work and help to those of us trying to lighten!

firebird

It would seem that the cassia mix is working against what you are trying to accomplish - blending your hair colour.

Cassia can yield 4 colours - yellow, yellow-orange, red and gold with variations of them all.

If you want the darker red tones that you are getting - no problem - but you need to lighten after that to really blend your hair colours - especially the roots.

The honey cinnamon treatments have done a great job in doing that for you and with no damage.

The easier route IMO, would be to change the cassia mix so that it yields a lighter colour.

I suggest simply adding the cassia to your new favorite honey lightening mixes, with the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio - that should lighten the cassia colour at the same time - and leave out the orange juice that you usually add to the cassia.

That will save you the time and effort of doing 2 treatments - 1 to condition and 1 to compensate for the colour that the cassia yields.

It should IMO, blend your hair colour, lighten and condition - in 1 shot and in only 1 hour.

firebird
May 2nd, 2008, 08:23 AM
Thanks ktani, that sounds a really good idea. I don't mind the darker red tones I have at the moment, but they seem very persistent, so your way would allow me to use cassia more often without increased darkening :) I will try tomorrow and report back!

ktani
May 2nd, 2008, 08:50 AM
firebird

I believe, from what I have read, that cassia should be not used too often, although it is supposed to improve the hair's condition the more you use it - see how it goes with frequency.

By leaving the orange juice out of the mix, you will not deplete the peroxide value of the recipe (Vitamin C) and I think not have too acidic a mixture for the cassia to darken.

Even if the cassia colour does change though - the peroxide should lighten it.

boukje
May 3rd, 2008, 08:09 AM
Hello everyone :waving:

I just wanted to say that I want to grow my hair out to my natural colour and I have hennaed hair. I did an SMT with a bit more honey (without heating the honey) and left it on my (dry) hair for about 3,5 hours before I rinsed it out.

It took away a lot of the red from the henna, even though I henna quite a while now. I will try to do this every week for a few times till the colour looks more like my own hair colour and this will easy the process of growing out to my natural colour.

I will post some pics the next time, before I do and SMT and after, especially for you guys to see the difference, thank you so much for this thread :hollie:

Greetings,

ktani
May 3rd, 2008, 08:48 AM
boukje

Thank you for your feedback and recipe - the SMT.

I am pleased for you that you got great results and that you like the thread.

How is the condition of your hair following the treatment?

A faster way for you to get results would be to increase the amount of liquid in your SMT so that you have 4 times the amount of liquid to honey. That includes the conditioner.

That way, you will only have to leave the treatment on your hair for 1 hour.

ktani
May 3rd, 2008, 09:03 AM
Recap 3 of the latest Honey thread news.

Recap 1, Pg 34, post 332.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=66919&postcount=332

Recap 2, Pg 40, post 391.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=74809&postcount=391


1. A honey cinnamon treatment was reported to be very successful in lightening henndigoed hair with the first treatment. It was reported to be even more successful with a 2nd treatment, that had 1/3 less cinnamon but had the 4 to1 liquid to honey ratio, and was left on the hair for only 1 hour.

2. There are now 4 honey lightening recipes reported to be successful on hendigoed hair.

3. There have been no reports that cinnamon darkens the hair or adds red tones.

4. There have been no reports that honey darkens hair or deposits a colour of its own onto hair.

5. There have been no reports that honey lightening recipes damage hair - the opposite has been reported - that the hair's condition has improved following honey lightening treatments.

6. Cassia, mixed with orange juice into a thick paste, then mixed with undiluted honey and EVOO, has been reported to darken hair and add red tones.

7. An SMT, unmicrowaved or heated, was reported to be successful in lightening hennaed hair.

8. I put together a Vitamin C checklist, Pg 43, post 429, so that you can see the Vitamin C content of honey lightening recipe ingredients. Ingredients with a Vitamin C content are not recommended for honey lightening recipes, with the possible exception of cardamom, which has a the highest peroxide value reported for a spice and a very low Vitamin C amount per tablespoon. Here it is.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429


Things to watch for

For those who use it - outside of honey lightening - it is not a honey lightening recipe ingredient - castor oil may darken hair - it has been reported to do so on the net - in reports on makeupalley.com. See this thread Pg 44, post 431
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83462&postcount=431

And Pg 44, post 435 - this thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83508&postcount=435

And in a traditional recommendation - Pg 44, post 440 - also this thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=84377&postcount=440

I am waiting for tests to be done by someone who posted in this thread - who first thought that her darkened hair might be a honey result but now thinks it may be the castor oil, which makes more sense IMO.

There have been no reports of honey causing that to happen and looking more closely at her hair care routine, (her hair continued to darken without the honey rinses she was doing, but with continued castor oil in a product being used) the poster agrees that castor oil is now the most likely suspect.

ktani
May 3rd, 2008, 11:28 AM
Latest posts of significant interest, IMO.

1. Hair reported to be in better condition post honey lightening treatments, including cinnamon (on previously conventionally lightened hair, with virgin regrowth) - Pg 43, post 427.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=82420&postcount=427

(First reported honey lightening and honey cinnamon lightening results - Pg 17, post 167.)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167

2. The 4 honey lightening recipes reported to be successful on henndigoed hair - Pg 46, post 457.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=89191&postcount=457

3. The 4 honey lightening recipes reported to be successful on henndigoed hair, modified, to have the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio - Pg 46, post 458.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=89583&postcount=458

4. 1st and 2nd honey cinnamon reported results on henndigoed hair - Pg 47, post 464.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=90480&postcount=464

5. Cassia mix, not cinnamon, reported to darken hair and add red tones - Pg 47, post 467.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=91307&postcount=467

Correction on the new honey lightening recipes ratio - Pg 47, post 469.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=91344&postcount=469

6. SMT reported to lighten hennaed hair - Pg 48, post 479.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=93409&postcount=479

boukje
May 3rd, 2008, 01:33 PM
boukje

Thank you for your feedback and recipe - the SMT.

I am pleased for you that you got great results and that you like the thread.

How is the condition of your hair following the treatment?

A faster way for you to get results would be to increase the amount of liquid in your SMT so that you have 4 times the amount of liquid to honey. That includes the conditioner.

That way, you will only have to leave the treatment on your hair for 1 hour.

You're Welcome ktani :)

My hair is not much better after the SMT (aka honey treatment), I mean by this no real improvement and also not a bad result.

My hair is very shiny and soft, looks moisturized, but I must add that this was also the case before the SMT, since I always use a shampoo bar now for my hair.

I did an SMT without heating up a few weeks ago and found out that is was a massive difference, and got rid of so much henna that I decided to do it again.

I didn't really carefully measured the amount of honey I put in the SMT. I did about 4 tablespoons I think and a big squirt of aloe vera gell (a bit more than normal) and fewer conditioner, so the SMT get a bit more runny.

I left it on for a while because I put it in after dinner and washed it before going to bed, it wasn't a real hassle. I don't want to put too much honey in it as I have to hennaed then bleached and hennaed again streaks the front part of my hair and honey dries them out quite a bit.

My overal hair health is fine so the honey makes it nice and shiney but not dry and/or limp. Just nice. But I must add SMT makes my hair greasy much faster. I will do it again next week (weekend) and I will try to make some pictures of it.

greetings from Helen.

ktani
May 3rd, 2008, 01:57 PM
You're Welcome ktani :)

My hair is not much better after the SMT (aka honey treatment), I mean by this no real improvement and also not a bad result.

My hair is very shiny and soft, looks moisturized, but I must add that this was also the case before the SMT, since I always use a shampoo bar now for my hair.

I did an SMT without heating up a few weeks ago and found out that is was a massive difference, and got rid of so much henna that I decided to do it again.

I didn't really carefully measured the amount of honey I put in the SMT. I did about 4 tablespoons I think and a big squirt of aloe vera gell (a bit more than normal) and fewer conditioner, so the SMT get a bit more runny.

I left it on for a while because I put it in after dinner and washed it before going to bed, it wasn't a real hassle. I don't want to put too much honey in it as I have to hennaed then bleached and hennaed again streaks the front part of my hair and honey dries them out quite a bit.

My overal hair health is fine so the honey makes it nice and shiney but not dry and/or limp. Just nice. But I must add SMT makes my hair greasy much faster. I will do it again next week (weekend) and I will try to make some pictures of it.

greetings from Helen.

boukje

Thank you for the added detail about your recipe and the condition of your hair. I am pleased for you that your hair remained soft and moisturized after the SMT, except for certain areas.

Honey residue can cause a drying effect on the hair. That can be remedied by a weak vinegar rinse - 1 tsp of white vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds, following a honey lightening treatment and then rinsed out - or by shampooing.

I suggest, that if you are specifically doing the SMT for lightening, that you leave out the aloe gel, which does coat the hair, and as I said earlier, increase the liquid content of the recipe to the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio - conditioner being included as a liquid. You will not be increasing the honey - only adding more liquid.

You used more aloe than conditioner before - I am suggesting you try the same amount of honey but without the aloe and more conditioner and water - 4 times the amount of liquid than the amount honey that you use.

This will do 2 things - you will likely get less honey residue by virtue of the fact that the honey is more diluted and you will only have to leave the treatment on your hair for the 1 hour to get maximum results from it.

boukje
May 3rd, 2008, 02:29 PM
boukje

Thank you for the added detail about your recipe and the condition of your hair. I am pleased for you that your hair remained soft and moisturized after the SMT, except for certain areas.

Honey residue can cause a drying effect on the hair. That can be remedied by a weak vinegar rinse - 1 tsp of white vinegar to 24 oz of water, left on the hair for 30-60 seconds, following a honey lightening treatment and then rinsed out - or by shampooing.

I suggest, that if you are specifically doing the SMT for lightening, that you leave out the aloe gel, which does coat the hair, and as I said earlier, increase the liquid content of the recipe to the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio - conditioner being included as a liquid. You will not be increasing the honey - only more liquid.

You used more aloe than conditioner before - I am suggesting you try the same amount of honey but without the aloe and more conditioner and water - 4 times the amount of liquid than the amount honey that you use.

This will do 2 things - you will likely get less honey residue by virtue of the fact that the honey is more diluted and you will only have to leave the treatment on your hair for the 1 hour to get maximum results from it.

just a small question: how many times can someone do a honey treatment and in what kind of time span?

I would love to have my (sort of) 'natural' colour quite soon and I want to actively grow out my hennaed hair to virgin hair, but I do not want to damage my hair by using honey too much.

Any ideas on how often I should use honey to get the 'best' results for colour change but also keep my hair healthy?

Thank you so much!:D

ktani
May 3rd, 2008, 02:41 PM
boukje

Honey lightening has not been reported to cause any damage to the hair or any negative effect aside from the occassional dryness that has been reported.

You can do a honey lightening treatment as often as you wish, IMO.

However, honey lightening has only been reported to completely remove henna once from hair - in the origional Honey thread and that was a henna mix (henna with other plants) that had been done one time - it was not baq henna or layers of pure henna.

Author : Fiberaddict
Date : January 23rd, 2007 07:24 AM
Thread Title : Re: Honey

"I'll hop in here with my honey experience. Saturday I mixed up a 1:1 mix of honey (the kind in the bear :grin:) and Mane n Tail conditioner (4 Tblspns each, for those who want to play along) and 1 tsp of SS Oil.

I slathered it in my hair, and let it set while I took a long, hot bath - maybe 45 minutes or so. I rinsed it for what seemed like forever....but it wasn't long enough, apparantly. :grin:

Once it dried, it looked limp and greasy. I decided I didn't care, and went about my normal Saturday routine. (Cleaning, cleaning, and more cleaning. And by Sunday morning you can't tell! :lol:)

Imagine my surprise when I shampoo'd and conditioned Sunday morning - all the coppery highlights from my MM Marigold Henna treatment were gone, and my hair was a nice, bright, golden honey-blonde (it's naturally a darker/ash-y honey color). :face:

I mean, I'm happy with the gold, but I really liked the copper! I'll go back and use the MM again in 2 weeks...and next time, I'll dilute the honey even more. (Like, 3:1 instead of 1:1).

On the upside, my hair is super soft, and super shiny - so it wasn't a total bust. :grin:"
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1005464&postcount=129


Author : Fiberaddict
Date : January 23rd, 2007 07:41 AM
Thread Title : Re: Honey

"Yse, the MM blend is - I think - 1/3 Henna to 2/3 cassia. I had only done 1 treatment with it, but I had nice coppery highlights from it. (I liked them, too! :lol:)

I'm thinking that I got such a big lightening effect because a) only 1 "henna" treatment (I've used straight cassia before; this was the first mix) and b) the honey mix was in my hair for....19 hours or so.

Oh - and I have super fine, thin hair - that might also contribute to the effects. :smile:"
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1005484&postcount=131


I do not want you to have unrealistic expectations.

boukje
May 3rd, 2008, 03:22 PM
thank you so much ktani for your quick reply :D very helpfull indeed.

I don't need to completely get rid of the henna, I only want to get rid of the most of the redness, so the growing out process will be easier,

I used henna with sodium primacate in it to make it very red, I only did two SMT (unmicrowaved) and it looks a lot more 'brownish' instead of the red 'auburn' colour.

I will report some more and this subject once I did the treatment again. :)

ktani
May 3rd, 2008, 03:33 PM
boukje

You are most welcome.

Thank you for clarifying your intentions regarding lightening your henna.

I found what I belive to be the last Fiberaddict post on her honey lightening. Here it is.


Originally posted by Fiberaddict, January 30, 2007

"OK, I just popped back over here and saw someone post about honey and wet vs. dry application.

I applied my SMT to stick dry hair - and it took all of the MM Marigold right out. :sad:

Now, I had only done 1 MM treatment, so it probably hadn't "stuck"...but still. :grin:

I re-did the MM Saturday, so I think I'll be avoiding honey until I get a bit more in my hair. :lol:"
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1013754&postcount=221


I recommend that honey lightening treatments be applied to wet hair.

IMO, the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio is definitely preferable to previous recipe ratios.

Good luck - I look forward to reading your continued results.

firebird
May 4th, 2008, 12:23 PM
After a suggestion from ktani, yesterday I tried another cassia/honey mixture, but this time without the orange juice. This was to see if the darkening from the cassia could be prevented if there was no vitamin C to inactivate the honey peroxide, therefore producing lightening with the conditioning effects of cassia. My mixture was 2 tablespoons of honey, 8 of water, 2 of cinnamon, just over 1 of EVOO and about 25g cassia, mixed and then used straight away. I left it on for nearly 2 hours. As usual, the honey and EVOO greatly helped with washing out the cassia. The condition of my hair is still good, I used a little of Burt's Bees deep conditioner over the whole length after rinsing the cassia/honey with shampoo, this worked really well as now I have none of the dryness that cassia can leave. So, here are the pictures:

Before the treatment:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/may1.jpg

After:
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm10/elleweed/2ndcassia.jpg

ktani
May 4th, 2008, 01:25 PM
firebird

Thank you for posting your new pictures and recipe.

Your hair definitely looks lighter and not as red to me. The difference is clear - on your length and ends.

I think that these results show very well that cinnamon, added to a honey lightening recipe, does not darken the hair or add red tones.

One clarification though, on my suggestion.

In your previous cassia mix, which was not a honey lightening treatment, you mixed the cassia with orange juice to form a thick paste
and let it sit for an hour.

Then you added undiluted honey and EVOO.

The Vitamin C would have depleted the peroxide in the EVOO, and in the honey only if the honey had been diluted. Honey does not produce peroxide unless it is diluted.

I do not think that there was enough moisture in the paste to dilute the honey much if at all.

I think that the honey and the orange juice in the separate cassia treatment - had the right acidity to cause the cassia to produce red tones and darken the hair. I do not think in that case it was about Vitamin C and peroxide.

For this treatment - adding cassia to a honey lightening treatment with diluted honey - yes - added orange juice would have depleted the peroxide in both the honey and the EVOO.

With orange juice and cassia in a lightening recipe with a 4 to 1 liquid to honey dilution, the recipe acidity might not be right to cause cassia to add red tones or darken the hair.

The hair would not lighten to the same degree though, because of the lesser amount of peroxide caused by the Vitamin C in the orange juice.

I am very pleased for you that this worked and that the condition of your hair is so good.

ktani
May 4th, 2008, 09:21 PM
This is good to know IMO.

Honey has been reported in a recent research study to be more effective that cough medicine.
http://www.livescience.com/health/071203-honey-cough.html

ktani
May 5th, 2008, 09:38 AM
Another interesting article, IMO.

The shelf life of honey appears to be infinite when stored well - about 3300 years? - not bad. Other good things to read too.
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-177673208.html

Anlbe
May 5th, 2008, 09:59 AM
Another honey experiment to report.
I tried half honey, half olive oil heated and put onto dry hair. Double bagged with two shower caps and slept on overnight. This made my very dry and chemically treated hair not just shiny (which is a rare enough occurrence) but actually glossy from day one, whereas normally my hair looks a bit dull and dry the first day. It also very slightly brought out a strawberry blonde tone in my hair, that only shows in direct sunlight.

ktani
May 5th, 2008, 10:10 AM
Another honey experiment to report.
I tried half honey, half olive oil heated and put onto dry hair. Double bagged with two shower caps and slept on overnight. This made my very dry and chemically treated hair not just shiny (which is a rare enough occurrence) but actually glossy from day one, whereas normally my hair looks a bit dull and dry the first day. It also very slightly brought out a strawberry blonde tone in my hair, that only shows in direct sunlight.

Anlbe

Thank you for your feedback and recipe.

You did not dilute the honey IMO and heated the recipe - which is not recommended - yet it still lightened a bit - interesting.

I think that the 2 shower caps caused perspiration and condensation from body heat, diluting the honey just enough to produce your result.

I have gotten a fair amout of condensation when I tried sleeping in a bagged catnip treatment a long while back - which is a tea that was applied to damp hair - and long before that, with conditioner on damp or dry hair - my hair was kept wet inside the bag and I could see the condensation, in both instances.

I am pleased for you that you got such great shine.

If you are pleased with the results, which is what is important, by all means continue doing the treatment this way.

If you want more lightening, I suggest the same recipe, with 4 times the amout of water to honey used added, and no heat applied to it, on wet hair.

I think that with the oil, you will still get shine and you will only have to leave the treatment on your hair for 1 hour.

ktani
May 5th, 2008, 10:24 AM
Where to get honey for medical purposes and more - a page from the University of Waikato site.
All suppliers ship internationally.
http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/where.shtml (http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/where.shtml)

firebird
May 5th, 2008, 10:48 AM
Anlbe, I'm so glad you got good results with honey too!

ktani, your latest research is really interesting - I have researched honey's medical uses too for work (I am a holistic veterinarian and have a column in a dog magazine on natural remedies) and it's definitely good for coughs and wounds. I've read the studies on it being better than modern cough medicines and also how it can heal wounds which modern drugs could not. I also agree with what you said before about how honey's other constituents protect from peroxide's potentially adverse effects - this is how it can stop infections without damaging the body. I see the same thing with the Chinese herbal remedies I use - there are much fewer side effects if a whole plant is used rather than a single isolated, purified constituent.

ktani
May 5th, 2008, 11:07 AM
Anlbe, I'm so glad you got good results with honey too!

ktani, your latest research is really interesting - I have researched honey's medical uses too for work (I am a holistic veterinarian and have a column in a dog magazine on natural remedies) and it's definitely good for coughs and wounds. I've read the studies on it being better than modern cough medicines and also how it can heal wounds which modern drugs could not. I also agree with what you said before about how honey's other constituents protect from peroxide's potentially adverse effects - this is how it can stop infections without damaging the body. I see the same thing with the Chinese herbal remedies I use - there are much fewer side effects if a whole plant is used rather than a single isolated, purified constituent.

firebird

What a fascinating line of work you have! I did not know that there were holistic veterinarians.

I do believe that the whole part of the plant when used or a pure oil - that has not been too processed does affect the results in a treatment.

In honey lightening - the no damage reports seem to support that theory.

Cinnamon is just the pure dried ground or stick form of the inner bark. See "Cultivation"
"thin (0.5 mm) inner bark is used; the outer woody portion is removed .... cinnamon strips that curl into rolls ("quills") on drying; .... These quills are then cut .... for sale."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon

Pasteurized honey does not affect peroxide production - the enzyme needed to produce peroxide remains intact.

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 07:28 AM
It is interesting to me to see where honey research is going.

They are looking of course at health concerns - honey's antibiotic effect on sore throats and athlete's foot in addition to treating wounds.

What is very interesting as well IMO, is the potential for a natural food preservative - using honey and a milk enzyme enzyme.

See "The Honey Research Unit has recently...."
http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/research.shtml

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 07:55 AM
This is an overview of bizarrogirl's results, using honey and cinnamon on henndigoed hair - from her first picture using only a henna gloss, to her 2nd honey cinnamon treatment, using the 4 to 1 liquid to honey ratio and less cinnamon.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/

Picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

This is the first honey cinnamon treatment result in sunlight and the 2nd in natural daylight with her new recipe.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/

ktani
May 6th, 2008, 08:41 AM
I really like flickr.

You can set things up to browse pictures, click on a specific series and then enlarge them.

What I noticed when I first saw this picture - bizarrogirl's 1st honey cinnamon result in natural daylight, was the telltale burgundy colour - the sure sign of henna layers, under the henndigo.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2397912505/in/set-72157594199905645/

The angle of the lighting is different here but that burgundy colour is gone in the 2nd honey cinnamon result - the henna layers have been lightened.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/2454335633/in/set-72157594199905645/