Honey thread - from TBB and bits from old LHC

[ktani]

It looks like removing sweat from certain areas of the body is more critical than others, to avoid odour, including the scalp. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=695069&postcount=6)

[ktani]

Recent honey lightening recipe and method innovations

Honey lightening to create hi-lights, by BranwenWolf

Honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506


The use of cardamom essential oil, by Fethenwen

After 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil, 1 tablespoon EVOO, 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Suggestions to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe outside of Finland where SAM honey is unavailable. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567)


A new method for applying a honey lightening treatment, by Shikyo

Honey lightening on a mix of virgin and previously dyed hair (previously dyed 3 years ago), recipe and first results, using various coverings, from a plastic bag to a swim cap, and apple cider vinegar, which darkened the hair, adding a red tint
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=651737&postcount=3901, new recipe and innovative new method of application- http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654025&postcount=3912, new method details -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654068&postcount=3914, complete method details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654116&postcount=3920

[ktani]

More on sweat and hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=696270&postcount=23) and on sweat and genes (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=696147&postcount=19).

[ktani]

The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1)

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel contains about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

[ktani]

Notes on EVOO (Extra Virgin Olive Oil) PV is short for Peroxide Value
"The PV is greatly reduced by the refining process used for most vegetable oils. Virgin olive oils are not exposed to such processes and the PVs permitted in these products are considerably higher. The IOOC and CAC standards permit extra-virgin olive oils to have PVs of up to 20 meq/kg, while pure olive oils, which by definition are blends of virgin and refined olive oils, must have PVs below 10 meq/kg. (http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm)"

In other words, the peroxide value of a pure evoo is going to be higher than that of a blend of evoo and olive oil, which would be about that of coconut oil.

Here is one source for cardamom essential oil and they sell samples, as well as provide information. (http://www.100pureessentialoils.com/site/1562898/page/710050)

[ktani]

Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, as well as in the Honey threads, past and current (this one), to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
<A href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm" target=_blank>http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

[ktani]

LHC shoutout, please. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=698152&postcount=38)

[Madame J]

So I had posted earlier about using a honey rinse without lightening for moisture after a shampoo bar. So this morning, I made up a honey rinse for my hair. I poured a half cup of boiling tap water over a tablespoon of local wildflower honey, and while it sat for a minute, I mixed a squirt of J/A/S/O/N aloe gel into a cup of cold tap water. I mixed the hot and cold mixtures together and put that in the shower with my normal ACV jar and 'poo bar. I washed coconut-oiled hair with my Sappo Hill natural bar, did 2 lathers, and then a third just on a spot I had missed before, rinsed with my honey mixture, then water, and then did my normal ACV rinse with lavender added for scent, followed by a water rinse. My hair smelled like honey and lavender when it was wet and has been a lot smoother and silkier than last week when I just did an ACV rinse after washing with that bar.

Obviously there was no lightening, as I didn't leave it on nearly long enough, even if I hadn't done everything I could think of to kill the peroxide, and I probably wouldn't use it more than once every two weeks (I wash twice a week, and one of those is with a more moisturizing bar until I use it up).

[ktani]

So I had posted earlier about using a honey rinse without lightening for moisture after a shampoo bar. So this morning, I made up a honey rinse for my hair. I poured a half cup of boiling tap water over a tablespoon of local wildflower honey, and while it sat for a minute, I mixed a squirt of J/A/S/O/N aloe gel into a cup of cold tap water. I mixed the hot and cold mixtures together and put that in the shower with my normal ACV jar and 'poo bar. I washed coconut-oiled hair with my Sappo Hill natural bar, did 2 lathers, and then a third just on a spot I had missed before, rinsed with my honey mixture, then water, and then did my normal ACV rinse with lavender added for scent, followed by a water rinse. My hair smelled like honey and lavender when it was wet and has been a lot smoother and silkier than last week when I just did an ACV rinse after washing with that bar.

Obviously there was no lightening, as I didn't leave it on nearly long enough, even if I hadn't done everything I could think of to kill the peroxide, and I probably wouldn't use it more than once every two weeks (I wash twice a week, and one of those is with a more moisturizing bar until I use it up).

I am glad that you are so pleased with the results. Even without all you did to negatively affect the peroxide, I do not think that you would have seen any lightening. You did not leave the rinse on your hair long enough for that to occur and you may have used too much water to honey in any case.

[ktani]

For vegans who are opposed to using honey, or there is another reason, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide). The honey lightening boosters do not indivdually have a higher peroxide level than most honeys can have.

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).

[ktani]

Suggestions for doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommended). Also recommended, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

[ktani]

A post from a new thread I started.

I love learning new things, even when they contradict what I thought I knew. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=700165&postcount=48)

[ktani]

Honey lightening on dark, dyed hair


Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

gallows gallery - dyed black hair over henna on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution and Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

ljkforu - on previously black dyed ends, hennaed hair, with tap water, ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455932&postcount=3335

ljkforu - more information on her honey lightening recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=433208&postcount=3270

ljkforu - feedback from those around her, in real life
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=437566&postcount=3282

lundmir, after 1 treatment, of honey, distilled water and ground cinnamon, on previously dyed and henned hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681359&postcount=3989, method and washing out details, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681389&postcount=3991

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening

On dark hair - henna and henndigo

Maluhia and Viviane - from an older Honey thread with the old dilution recipes, Maluhia honey lightened chemical dye and Vivianne, on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

mellie - from an older Honey thread - on henndigoed hair (baq henna used once or twice) - no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

mellie - pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, ground cinnamon and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119360&postcount=867

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 3 treatments - 1 with the new dilution, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176427&postcount=1583

LadyPolaris - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176471&postcount=1586

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - 2 with the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Sokudo Ningyou, after 1 treatment of honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=627717&postcount=3851, - after her 3rd treatment, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=638349&postcount=3877

lundmir, after 1 treatment, of honey, distilled water and ground cinnamon, on previously dyed and henned hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681359&postcount=3989, method and washing out details, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681389&postcount=3991

[SimplyViki]

Hi ktani, my mom said I could post here about her honey results. Here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3522&pictureid=44981) is a before pic, and here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=3522&pictureid=46447) and here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=3522&pictureid=46446) are after pics. Note: The two pics are in much different lighting, but I can assure you the results are at least as dramatic as they look. She didn't want to post a picture of more of her hair yet because her hair was messy from being in the pool and also covered in coconut oil, but I plan to take another picture of her in the same lighting/setting as the ones in our Mother/Daughter thread, so we can compare better.

Her method, as she described to me, was that she used your dilution of honey and did several overnight treatments with a shower cap on. She also sprayed it on with a spray bottle if her bangs started to dry. She also said it should be mentioned that she swam in the pool several times and let the chlorine water sit on her hair for a while (but I saw her hair before she swam and after the honey, and I still think the honey did most if not all of the lightening.)

She's a little concerned about brassiness - the lightening seems to have revealed more warm tones in her hair than she's used to. Any suggestions on that?

[ktani]

Hi ktani, my mom said I could post here about her honey results. Here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3522&pictureid=44981) is a before pic, and here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=3522&pictureid=46447) and here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=3522&pictureid=46446) are after pics. Note: The two pics are in much different lighting, but I can assure you the results are at least as dramatic as they look. She didn't want to post a picture of more of her hair yet because her hair was messy from being in the pool and also covered in coconut oil, but I plan to take another picture of her in the same lighting/setting as the ones in our Mother/Daughter thread, so we can compare better.

Her method, as she described to me, was that she used your dilution of honey and did several overnight treatments with a shower cap on. She also sprayed it on with a spray bottle if her bangs started to dry. She also said it should be mentioned that she swam in the pool several times and let the chlorine water sit on her hair for a while (but I saw her hair before she swam and after the honey, and I still think the honey did most if not all of the lightening.)

She's a little concerned about brassiness - the lightening seems to have revealed more warm tones in her hair than she's used to. Any suggestions on that?

Thank you so much! and thank your mom too.

I gather that her hair is virgin? What exactly if anything did she have on her hair colourwise, if anything, pre the honey treatments? Cassia? I need to identify that for her report and I need to spell her name correctly too.

It looks as though she is on her way to strawberry blonde. More honey lightening can take care of brassiness. I do not suggest letting chlorine dry on her hair to bleach it. It is potentially damaging. Club soda can remove the chlorine, used as a rinse, no washing required.

She does not need to sleep in a honey lightening treatment. No way is that necessary. A few hours maximum, (1 hour recommended per treatment).

Oops I forgot this, WOW!!!!

[SimplyViki]

Oh! Yes, she did do a cassia a couple of weeks ago. But that's all, other than that, no color treatments.

I'll let her know about the chlorine and your tip about the length. I think she got a little aggressive with it because she wasn't convinced she saw results at first. ;) Well, she got results!

And her name is Mary Ann, but her username is maryann. Whichever way is fine.

[ktani]

Oh! Yes, she did do a cassia a couple of weeks ago. But that's all, other than that, no color treatments.

I'll let her know about the chlorine and your tip about the length. I think she got a little aggressive with it because she wasn't convinced she saw results at first. ;) Well, she got results!

And her name is Mary Ann, but her username is maryann. Whichever way is fine.

Thank you both. I added what I forgot to add to my post, WOW!!!!

I thought I saw some cassia pictures in the thread on both of you with your gorgeous hair!

Cassia can turn brassy. Honey lightening can counteract that.

[SimplyViki]

Hmm... Interesting. Now I'm not sure if the honey or the cassia is what made it seem so red. :ponder: I guess she can just keep honeying and watch what happens! I'll definitely let her know it doesn't need to be so long a treatment though. Say, does the honey peroxide reaction "run out" at some point, or does it keep on producing peroxide during the whole thing? I mean, is it likely to do damage to leave it on for so long, or is it just not doing anything more at some point?

[ktani]

Hmm... Interesting. Now I'm not sure if the honey or the cassia is what made it seem so red. :ponder: I guess she can just keep honeying and watch what happens! I'll definitely let her know it doesn't need to be so long a treatment though. Say, does the honey peroxide reaction "run out" at some point, or does it keep on producing peroxide during the whole thing? I mean, is it likely to do damage to leave it on for so long, or is it just not doing anything more at some point?

Cassia cannot lighten, that I have ever read or heard of happening, only stain or colour. Her hair definitely looks lighter.

Have your mom read this, no worries. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=287574&postcount=2323

Different honeys can peak and decline in their peroxide production but no worries on that either in the time frame used so far. If it declined, it is not a problem. She can just do another treatment.

[ktani]

maryann's reports added

Here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

and here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654111&postcount=3918

[ktani]

Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

BranwenWolf - honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506

ShaSha, after a 2nd treatment, with just honey and tap water (the first was honey, tap water and cassia but there are no pictures)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=527243&postcount=3523

recipe and method details for the 2nd treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528545&postcount=3542

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

[ktani]

A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266)- highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value.

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Distilled water. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. The new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html) is a conversion link. (For every 1 tablespoon of honey, use 6 tablespoons of distilled water.)


4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

[ktani]

Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495) and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair in other threads on these boards, when accidental lightening has been reported to have occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can be easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

[ktani]

Recent honey lightening recipe and method innovations

Honey lightening to create hi-lights, by BranwenWolf

Honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506


The use of cardamom essential oil, by Fethenwen

After 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil, 1 tablespoon EVOO, 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Suggestions to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe outside of Finland where SAM honey is unavailable. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567)


A new method for applying a honey lightening treatment, by Shikyo

Honey lightening on a mix of virgin and previously dyed hair (previously dyed 3 years ago), recipe and first results, using various coverings, from a plastic bag to a swim cap, and apple cider vinegar, which darkened the hair, adding a red tint
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=651737&postcount=3901, new recipe and innovative new method of application- http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654025&postcount=3912, new method details -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654068&postcount=3914, complete method details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654116&postcount=3920

[ktani]

Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

Pure evoo has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382).

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

[Charlize]

Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

Pure evoo has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382).

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

Hey Ktani,

I did a honey lightening just before. I tried a new brand of honey using the new dilution ratio 1:6, 2:12 and so on. I can only get dimineralized water here so I used that. Also i used one tablespoon of EVOO. I got my hair wet and applied it. My hair was extremely wet when it was applied. My squirt bottle didn't seem to work so I just soaked my hair in a bowl. I covered my hair with several plastic bags tight around my head as it was all absorbed. It dripped a lot so I put a towel on my shoulders. I let it sit for an hour and washed it out. When I took off the plastic bags my hair was still very wet. It dripped a lot when I touched it. My hair seems fine but I don't really notice any color change. Do you have any advice on what I might be doing wrong? Also at the time being I'm mostly interested in doing my ends. Any specific method I should use here?

[ktani]

Hey Ktani,

I did a honey lightening just before. I tried a new brand of honey using the new dilution ratio 1:6, 2:12 and so on. I can only get dimineralized water here so I used that. Also i used one tablespoon of EVOO. I got my hair wet and applied it. My hair was extremely wet when it was applied. My squirt bottle didn't seem to work so I just soaked my hair in a bowl. I covered my hair with several plastic bags tight around my head as it was all absorbed. It dripped a lot so I put a towel on my shoulders. I let it sit for an hour and washed it out. When I took off the plastic bags my hair was still very wet. It dripped a lot when I touched it. My hair seems fine but I don't really notice any color change. Do you have any advice on what I might be doing wrong? Also at the time being I'm mostly interested in doing my ends. Any specific method I should use here?

Nothing you have said indicates a problem with your recipe or method. Try boosting the recipe with either ground cinnamon and or ground cardamom (after patch testing), 2 tablespoons maximum (in total) per treatment, in a recipe over 1:6 ratio.

[Charlize]

Nothing you have said indicates a problem with your recipe or method. Try boosting the recipe with either ground cinnamon and or ground cardamom (after patch testing), 2 tablespoons maximum (in total) per treatment, in a recipe over 1:6 ratio.

Okay I'll try that next time :-). Just to be sure it's max. 1 tablespoon of either EVOO or coconut oil and max. 2 tablespoons of cinnamon or cardamom pr. treatment in total right?

[ktani]

Okay I'll try that next time :-). Just to be sure it's max. 1 tablespoon of either EVOO or coconut oil and max. 2 tablespoons of cinnamon or cardamom pr. treatment in total right?

You got it! But please patch test the spices and to use 2 tablespoons use more than 1 to 6 for your ratio.

ETA: You can also mix the spices (use 1 tablespoon of each).

[ktani]

Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

[ktani]

Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258)

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

[prettigurl]

I've mixed it with cinnamon and left it on overnight. It lightened my hair from dark brown to a medium brown color.

[ktani]

I've mixed it with cinnamon and left it on overnight. It lightened my hair from dark brown to a medium brown color.

Wonderful!

To help others can you please give the complete recipe and proportions you used, the name brand and type of the honey, the kind of water you used, and what you covered your hair with?

[ktani]

When to Pretreat and the booster oils

Honey lightening

No pretreatment of any kind is necessary before honey lightening.

Of the 2 booster oils (evoo and coconut oil), evoo has a higher peroxide level, (as long as it is pure evoo and not a mix of evoo and olive oil).

Evoo will mix into a recipe better than coconut oil and either oil should only be used at room temperature. Body heat will melt the coconut oil used in a mix, when the treatment is applied to the hair.

A CO (coneless conditioner, preferrably) has been reported to remove a too oily honey lightening treatment, more easily than shampoo.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Conventional lightening chemicals

Yes, for conventional hair colouring or lightening, or adding conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe, a pretreatment with either coconut oil or coconut and argan oils (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495)is recommended, to help prevent damage to hair.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

[ktani]

Diluting honey with peroxide

I do not recommend it. The honey alone would not offer the damage protection you would need against conventional peroxide, which is 1000 stronger than the peroxide honey produces (comparing honey peroxide to 3% conventional peroxide). The protective constituents in honey protect the hair from damage from its peroxide but adding conventional peroxide to honey is not going to be as effective, in terms of damage protection, as pre-treating the hair. You can pre-treat the hair first, with coconut oil or coconut and argan oils, as you can with using peroxide on its own or other conventional lightening systems, which based on reports, minimizes hair damage. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495)

Honey lightening peroxide has not been reported to cause hair damage, to date, no matter how often honey lightening is done or how long a recipe is left on the hair. As well, adding conventional peroxide to honey will not raise the pH of the solution enough (conventional peroxide is acidic) for honey to produce its optimal amount of peroxide, the way distilled water, with a pH of 7 can do, with the new dilution. Honey needs a pH of 6 to do that and most honeys on the market are less than that pH. Even if the honey used were a pH of 6 on dilution with water, conventional peroxide would lower it.

You can use lemon juice or conventional peroxide separately from honey lightening (lemon juice depletes peroxide and is not recommended to be used in a honey lightening recipe, for that reason). Lemon juice has been reported to redarken the hair colour when used on henna but can lighten it somewhat, based on reports. It is better I think, to mix it with conditioner (http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=40946), to help prevent dryness and damage.

[hennaphile]

I did a patch test: new dilution plus a little cinnamon and a drop of EVOO.

So what happened/


IT BURNED!!!!!!! :shudder:

my face is now streaked with pink, and even though I immediately jumped in the shower and conditioned, shampooed, then conditioned again, there's still a ton in there.


bleh.

[ktani]

I did a patch test: new dilution plus a little cinnamon and a drop of EVOO.

So what happened/


IT BURNED!!!!!!! :shudder:

my face is now streaked with pink, and even though I immediately jumped in the shower and conditioned, shampooed, then conditioned again, there's still a ton in there.

bleh.

Put some aloe if you have any, on it right away. It should subside. It sounds as if you are very sensitive to cinnamon.

A patch test is normally put on a very small part of the skin, like the upper inner arm, and left there, usually covered, for 24 hours.

There have not been any reports of any long term problems with this type of reaction, which has been reported before.

I hope that like the others, you recover quickly. I am so sorry that you are in pain.

[hennaphile]

Put some aloe if you have any, on it right away. It should subside. It sounds as if you are very sensitive to cinnamon.

A patch test is normally put on a very small part of the skin, like the upper inner arm, and left there, usually covered, for 24 hours.

There have not been any reports of any long term problems with this type of reaction, which has been reported before.

I hope that like the others, you recover quickly. I am so sorry that you are in pain.

Well I'm covered in aloe now and should be fine :)

But come to think of it, I use a sulphur serum, and there was probably some residue. Now I have no idea how any of the ingredients in the lightening formula could be affected by sulphur, but hmmmmmm. I hope I can just use honey and water at some point.

Thanks ktani :flower:

[ktani]

Well I'm covered in aloe now and should be fine :)

But come to think of it, I use a sulphur serum, and there was probably some residue. Now I have no idea how any of the ingredients in the lightening formula could be affected by sulphur, but hmmmmmm. I hope I can just use honey and water at some point.

Thanks ktani :flower:

Good to hear. Aloe worked for others. It depends on whether you are sensitive to that too though. It does not sound like it.

You are most welcome! I am confused about the sulphur cream. I am allergic to that. I am not sure how you used that.

You can try cardamom instead of cinnamon for your honey lightening mix but right now, recover first.

Any more patch testing should be reserved to the smallest possible test area and at the slightest discomfort, remove the test solution and wash your skin.

[ktani]

A few times, it was the amount of cinnamon used that caused such a reaction in reports, where a lesser amount did not. Also how the spice was mixed.

I experimented, adding cinnamon to water and found that it mixed much better, when honey was added first.

There has only been 1 report of cardamom causing sensitivity compared to multiple reports of cinnamon causing such reactions.

That is why I always state that the spices should be patch tested, just in case.

[hennaphile]

ktani,

this (http://beemineproducts.net/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=2) is the serum I use to try and grow my sad little braid back :p . I wouldn't imagine it'd cause problems, so I' guessing it's the cinnamon. I mixed i with the honey already in it, but I think next time I'll go spice free!

Thanks for all you're help! :cheese:

[ktani]

ktani,

this (http://beemineproducts.net/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=2) is the serum I use to try and grow my sad little braid back :p . I wouldn't imagine it'd cause problems, so I' guessing it's the cinnamon. I mixed i with the honey already in it, but I think next time I'll go spice free!

Thanks for all you're help! :cheese:

You are most welcome!

It is hard to know what may have reacted with what. How much cinnamon did you use to how much water?

In any case, I would stay away from cinnamon for now. If you want to try honey and evoo and just distilled water, I suggest trying Jarrah honey, with its high peroxiode level or fireweed honey, if you can find it.

This post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096), has links on Jarrah honey and the Successful Honeys List. This is the information on fireweed honey. "Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey (Fred Meyer and Kroger stores)"

[Idun]

ktani, do you know if anyone used heather honey? If so, did they have good results?

[ktani]

ktani, do you know if anyone used heather honey? If so, did they have good results?

I do not see it listed here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin) but that does not mean that it may not be a good option. I do not know offhand, how many heather varieties there are in heather honey.

[Idun]

Ok :)

Heather honey is the most available honey here, and it has the darkest colur of the ones in the grocery. It does not say on the label what kind of heather it comes from. Most likely it is common heather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calluna).

[ktani]

Ok :)

Heather honey is the most available honey here, and it has the darkest colur of the ones in the grocery. It does not say on the label what kind of heather it comes from. Most likely it is common heather (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calluna).

The colour for a single source honey is not that important. Dark coloured honey blends were reported to yield higher peroxide levels than light coloured blends. I have a source on different types of heathers, actually, but not the one you quoted.

I suggest, if the heather honey you have is the most available that you try it out, provided that it is not too expensive. Cheaper honeys have been reported to work well too.

The Successful Honeys List is a guide and is not complete.

[Idun]

This was interesting I think:...heather honey by reason of its gelatinous character, holds its water in a different way from other honeys. Ordinary honey containing more than about 20 per cent of water (due to either immaturity or dilution), tends to ferment, whereas heather honey since some of its water is held in an immobilized condition, does not do so until considerably higher moisture content is reached. (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j150362a006)

I´m not sure what that means in this context though. I used heather honey for SMT and it was excellent.

[ktani]

This was interesting I think:...heather honey by reason of its gelatinous character, holds its water in a different way from other honeys. Ordinary honey containing more than about 20 per cent of water (due to either immaturity or dilution), tends to ferment, whereas heather honey since some of its water is held in an immobilized condition, does not do so until considerably higher moisture content is reached. (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/j150362a006)

I&#180;m not sure what that means in this context though. I used heather honey for SMT and it was excellent.

Fermentation has not been an issue with honey lightening. They were testing honeys for different reasons there. It is interesting though. They note at the end that not all heather honeys were purely from one source.

I would not worry about the quality of the heather honey you have been using. You have liked it in an SMT. If you still have some, try it for honey lightening and see how it works.

[Idun]

The colour for a single source honey is not that important. Dark coloured honey blends were reported to yield higher peroxide levels than light coloured blends. I have a source on different types of heathers, actually, but not the one you quoted.

I suggest, if the heather honey you have is the most available that you try it out, provided that it is not too expensive. Cheaper honeys have been reported to work well too.

The Successful Honeys List is a guide and is not complete.

I don´t think the prices vary that much unless you buy some special foreign type. I will try it on my mother :D

[ktani]

I don´t think the prices vary that much unless you buy some special foreign type. I will try it on my mother :D

Good luck and please update! If you have any more questions before you try it, please post and I will do my best to answer them.

[Idun]

The interesting part I thought was that heather honey holds water differently. Excactly how - I did not get yet :)

[Idun]

Good luck and please update! If you have any more questions before you try it, please post and I will do my best to answer them.

Thank you ktani :). Will do.

[ktani]

The interesting part I thought was that heather honey holds water differently. Excactly how - I did not get yet :)

You are right, that is most interesting. Your results should be very interesting, in light of that.

They are referring to heather honey's thickness in how it holds water and keeps it "contained". How that will translate regarding honey lightening and whether that contributes to any positive results, remains to be seen and may be difficult to assess.

[Idun]

This study (http://www.woundsresearch.com/content/a-comparison-between-medical-grade-honey-and-table-honeys-relation-antimicrobial-efficacy) suggests that heather honey might be a good choice for lightening hair. Scroll straight to results.

Also interesting:
Heather (http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/honey-varieties.html)
Thick, amber in color, Heather honey has one of the strongest and most pungent flavors. It is fragrant and floral with a very lingering aftertaste that is almost bitter. It is commonly served with ham, chicken, lamb, seafood and cold dishes and goes well with strong, black coffee. Prized since ancient times due to its medicinal properties, Heather honey is extremely high in protein content.

[ktani]

This study (http://www.woundsresearch.com/content/a-comparison-between-medical-grade-honey-and-table-honeys-relation-antimicrobial-efficacy) suggests that heather honey might be a good choice for lightening hair. Scroll straight to results.

Also interesting:
Heather (http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/honey-varieties.html)
Thick, amber in color, Heather honey has one of the strongest and most pungent flavors. It is fragrant and floral with a very lingering aftertaste that is almost bitter. It is commonly served with ham, chicken, lamb, seafood and cold dishes and goes well with strong, black coffee. Prized since ancient times due to its medicinal properties, Heather honey is extremely high in protein content.

The study is excellent. Thank you. In a similar study though, the heather honey referred to was a different species to the one you have posted about.

I very much appreciate all the information you have provided.

Now comes the really interesting part, your testing the honey you have.

I have to brew some catnip tea and get ready for school. If you have more to post on any of this I am most interested but I may have to delay responding until tonight or later this afternoon (curiosity), lol, on my break.

[Idun]

I will not be trying this today, but later this week. I also have to get the ground cardamon which is somewhat more difficult. After reading about reactions with cinnamon I think cardamon is safer.

- On heather honey purity (http://www.honey-health.com/honey-18.shtml): "In common parlance, pure heather honey does not imply absolute purity. If there is 20 per cent of other pollen present, it would still be reckoned good heather honey"

It is indeed Calluna vulgaris that the norwegian bees feed off of. These are the types one normally find at the grocers: Honningsentralen (http://www.honningcentralen.no/default.asp?V_ITEM_ID=487). Nr. 3 from the top is the heather honey. (The colour is slightly darker in RL). It does say that it is mainly honey from common heather. The cheapest honey is the one on top, which is a blend of different honeys. It is also dark in colour and tixothropic. Actually when untouched inside the can, it is the most solid of them all.

[ktani]

I will not be trying this today, but later this week. I also have to get the ground cardamon which is somewhat more difficult. After reading about reactions with cinnamon I think cardamon is safer.

- On heather honey purity (http://www.honey-health.com/honey-18.shtml): "In common parlance, pure heather honey does not imply absolute purity. If there is 20 per cent of other pollen present, it would still be reckoned good heather honey"

It is indeed Calluna vulgaris that the norwegian bees feed off of. These are the types one normally find at the grocers: Honningsentralen (http://www.honningcentralen.no/default.asp?V_ITEM_ID=487). Nr. 3 from the top is the heather honey. (The colour is slightly darker in RL). It does say that it is mainly honey from common heather. The cheapest honey is the one on top, which is a blend of different honeys. It is also dark in colour and tixothropic. Actually when untouched inside the can, it is the most solid of them all.

Most single source honeys have a pollen variance (wandering bees), lol.

I need to literally run out the door at this point but if there is more to discuss I will reply later and I want to read that study again in more detail, to see if I missed anything. I cannot thank you enough for it!

[Idun]

Apparently most norwegian and nordic honeys have higher levels of glucose, and that is why they have a more solid consistency and less water. -While other honeys are higher in fructose and therefore more fluid. I can not find an article in english about this, sorry.

Heather honey is also said to be high in minerals.

Was the other study about honey from Erica spps (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-3V5V3YC-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=976512729&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=23b24e5092545646cd62fd45f64be635)? Erica is a southern relative of common heather. In my country it only grows in garden pots. I saw a study on portuguese Erica honey somewhere.

I must admit I have not read everything you have written about honey ktani. -It is a lot! But when reading this article (http://www.prlog.org/10227103-the-hydrogen-peroxide-producing-capacity-of-honey.html) I wonder if you ever considered adding salt in the recipe? It states: "Another condition is also required before the glucose oxidase becomes active. For the enzyme to break glucose down into hydrogen peroxide, a certain amount of sodium must be present. Honey alone does not contain enough sodium to make this happen. However, skin and body fluids have relatively high pH and sodium levels. When honey comes in contact with skin or an open wound, the high pH and sodium levels activate the glucose oxidase and it begins to break down the glucose, releasing hydrogen peroxide."

I expect skin has higher sodium levels than hair, especially if the hair has just been washed. I know you recommend destilled water to get the optimal ph. Does cardamom have sodium?

Foregive me if this has already been answered. Please point me to the right place :).

[ktani]

Apparently most norwegian and nordic honeys have higher levels of glucose, and that is why they have a more solid consistency and less water. -While other honeys are higher in fructose and therefore more fluid. I can not find an article in english about this, sorry.

Heather honey is also said to be high in minerals.

Was the other study about honey from Erica spps (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-3V5V3YC-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=976512729&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=23b24e5092545646cd62fd45f64be635)? Erica is a southern relative of common heather. In my country it only grows in garden pots. I saw a study on portuguese Erica honey somewhere.

I must admit I have not read everything you have written about honey ktani. -It is a lot! But when reading this article (http://www.prlog.org/10227103-the-hydrogen-peroxide-producing-capacity-of-honey.html) I wonder if you ever considered adding salt in the recipe? It states: "Another condition is also required before the glucose oxidase becomes active. For the enzyme to break glucose down into hydrogen peroxide, a certain amount of sodium must be present. Honey alone does not contain enough sodium to make this happen. However, skin and body fluids have relatively high pH and sodium levels. When honey comes in contact with skin or an open wound, the high pH and sodium levels activate the glucose oxidase and it begins to break down the glucose, releasing hydrogen peroxide."

I expect skin has higher sodium levels than hair, especially if the hair has just been washed. I know you recommend destilled water to get the optimal ph. Does cardamom have sodium?

Foregive me if this has already been answered. Please point me to the right place :).

I did address it. I will find it for you. I need a bit of time to do that. I am not at home at the moment.

ETA: Here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=676594&postcount=3968) is the post. Given the following, and without knowing the sodium content of a particular water, it may be very difficult to add the right amount of sodium needed to a honey lightening treatment, so as not to add too much. It may not hurt to add some but I would err on the less is more side.

" .... The normal range for blood sodium levels is 135 to 145 milliequivalents per liter (mEq/L). ...." (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003481.htm)

[ktani]

I added a link to my previous post on sodium levels.

This is from one of the posted studies and indicates that while certain honeys tested did produce peroxide, the ones from supermarkets were low producers, since it is the peroxide in honey, (unless it is manuka, with its unique manuka factor, that is antbacterial, separately from any peroxide level), that is the antibacterial agent.

".... This study demonstrates the relatively low antibacterial activity of honeys available in British supermarkets ...."
http://www.woundsresearch.com/content/a-comparison-between-medical-grade-honey-and-table-honeys-relation-antimicrobial-efficacy

[ktani]

The research on which I based the recommendations for the new dilution, found among other posts in this thread and in this one (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=63546&postcount=278), only mentioned using distilled water, no additives, and came originally from a food science laboratory, as the source.

Unfortunately, the link to the research in question is now not working. I think that it is very possible, that they (the food science lab) knew about the sodium levels in distilled water, if indeed it is the case that sodium levels are significant. I have not seen that referenced elsewhere.

That post, upon rereading it is pre other changes that were made since then, that no longer include any conditioner as part of a honey lightening recipe. I was hunting for the earliest reference, to that link, which is now gone. The new recommendations, which are actually months old, are all in the first post of this thread. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1)

This post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096)is complete and updated, as are the others in the first post. This one is just longer with more links in it.

[Idun]

I am not sure I understand your post correctly. Did you reach the conclusion that sodium should be added or not?

Neither destilled nor deionized water has any minerals - including sodium. So if you don´t add any, you rely on the natural sodium content on the skin and hair to do the trick, right? (If indeed it is true that sodium is part of the process.)

Is that the case, one would expect an application on dry hair to be more effective since you did not rinse out any salt in advance?

Now I really need to sleep! :sleep:

[Idun]

Did not see your last post there. I must wait and read it tomorrow :)

[ktani]

Did not see your last post there. I must wait and read it tomorrow :)

No worries.

Apparently there is sodium in distilled water, since there is a sodium free version of distilled water available and there is sodium in tap water (some tap water is acceptable for honey lightening, having low levels of other minerals and a good pH (around 7).

I do not think that adding sodium to a honey lightening recipe is necessary and if it were added, the level needed would need to be very, very low.

[ktani]

Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Sokudo Ningyou, honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=627717&postcount=3851

[Idun]

No worries.

Apparently there is sodium in distilled water, since there is a sodium free version of distilled water available and there is sodium in tap water (some tap water is acceptable for honey lightening, having low levels of other minerals and a good pH (around 7).

I do not think that adding sodium to a honey lightening recipe is necessary and if it were added, the level needed would need to be very, very low.

Thank you again ktani. Yes I realize it would be difficult to assess the amount of sodium needed (if needed). I was thinking along the lines of rinsing the hair first with salty water in a dilution similar to human sweat. - Which probably differs a lot too. I will however stick to your recipe :).

If destilled water has sodium it must have been added after destillation. Deionized water definetely does not have sodium or it would ruin cars!

The cheapest option here in Norway would be "batterywater" sold at gas stations. It is deionized an has a ph of 5 - 7,5 according to this (http://logichem.netpower.no/datasheet.aspx?iId=32699&iDepId=7). Destilled water is sold in pharmacies and I will check out the price later today. My tapwater has a ph of at least 7,5 (I used a kit for measuring ph in fishtanks and it doesn´t go higher than 7,5 :D), and probably has some unwanted minerals. My parents have their own watersupply and lower ph, but again with an unknown quantity of minerals.

Honey has an average ph of 4 (http://www.bikurs.net/tema/honning.htm) I read, which ofcourse you know. I have sendt an e-mail to the honey supplier asking for details about their products :). Hair starts to raise its cuticles at ph 5,5, right? So in this respect too it makes sense to go for an overall ph of 6.

You probably think I am a real nitpick and you have already figured all this out. I just find the details very interesting and I like to understand things :D.

[ktani]

Thank you again ktani. Yes I realize it would be difficult to assess the amount of sodium needed (if needed). I was thinking along the lines of rinsing the hair first with salty water in a dilution similar to human sweat. - Which probably differs a lot too. I will however stick to your recipe :).

If destilled water has sodium it must have been added after destillation. Deionized water definetely does not have sodium or it would ruin cars!

The cheapest option here in Norway would be "batterywater" sold at gas stations. It is deionized an has a ph of 5 - 7,5 according to this (http://logichem.netpower.no/datasheet.aspx?iId=32699&iDepId=7). Destilled water is sold in pharmacies and I will check out the price later today. My tapwater has a ph of at least 7,5 (I used a kit for measuring ph in fishtanks and it doesn&#180;t go higher than 7,5 :D), and probably has some unwanted minerals. My parents have their own watersupply and lower ph, but again with an unknown quantity of minerals.

Honey has an average ph of 4 (http://www.bikurs.net/tema/honning.htm) I read, which ofcourse you know. I have sendt an e-mail to the honey supplier asking for details about their products :). Hair starts to raise its cuticles at ph 5,5, right? So in this respect too it makes sense to go for an overall ph of 6.

You probably think I am a real nitpick and you have already figured all this out. I just find the details very interesting and I like to understand things :D.

I do not think that the sodium content in distilled water is enough to ruin much of anything. It is not that high. Just enough to work with honey lightening, lol. It is not an otherwise very significant amount although it may vary.

Hair and cuticles are their healthiest at around pH 5. PH 6 is also fine.

I do not think that you are nitpicking at all, lol. Just interested.

[ktani]

The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=274753&postcount=2243) Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this. The honey lightening spices, ground or powdered cinnamon and cardamom are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

Less of the spices, used with the new dilution and distilled water, have been reported to yield better results, than more of the spices, at lower dilutions, with distilled water.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

[ktani]

Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)." (http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html)

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. " (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust." (http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm)

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used " (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html) (this link no longer works)

[ktani]

Honey Lightening Results

On blonde hair

firebird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth, with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393, on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner, -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097, on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767, recipe details and the condition of her hair, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765, on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055, on the condition of her hair after 2 treatments, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

BranwenWolf - honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504, recipe and method details -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506

Shikyo - honey lightening on a mix of virgin and previously dyed hair (previously dyed 3 years ago), recipe and first results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=651737&postcount=3901, new recipe - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654025&postcount=3912, method details -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654068&postcount=3914, complete method details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654116&postcount=3920, more lightening - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=657584&postcount=3934, details on lighting and pictures - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=658495&postcount=3936

[MerryKat]

History
My ends have been repeatedly dyed and henna'ed. I then grew virgin hair for 18 months. I had it coloured once at a salon and then started henna'ing again. I did about 1 henna gloss, 1 full henna treatment and 3 henna roots between October 08 and March 09.

Honey Lightening 1
May 09 I did my first honey lightening after reading a substantial amount of this thread. My mix was 4 Tbl Honey / 16 Tbl cool, boiled Water / 1 Tsp Cinnamon / 2 Tbl Coconut Oil which I left on for 2 hours under saran wrap. Very drippy and messy. This removed my most recent henna roots treatment and lifted a little of the colour at the ends. Found that there was too much coconut oil in that mix and it took ages to get rid of.

Lemon / Conditioner
I tried this a couple of days after the first honey lightening - partly to try and get rid of the greasies from the coconut oil and partly to experiment with the lightening of the henna. Seemed a little lighter all over, but it may just have been the removal of the oil which makes my hair appear darker.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3211&pictureid=40686
You can see the virgin roots around 1 inch and the honey lightened henna around 1 inch before it moves back to the copper henna

Honey Lightening 2
June 09 I did my second honey lightening - could not remember the exact mix (info was at work). My mix was 2 Tbl Honey / 12 Tbl cool, boiled Water / 1 Tsp Cinnamon / 1 Tbl Coconut Oil which I left on for 1 1/2 hours under saran wrap. Less drippy and messy as I did not make as much, but hair was completely covered. This removed more henna from the roots and lifted even more of the colour at the ends. The roots were significantly extended and my hair is very nearly back to virgin colour at the roots - this portion was virgin hair which was henna'ed and then lightened. My ends are very close to my virgin colour and I guess one more lightening would take them almost back to virgin. However, I have a band between my roots and the ends which was the virgin hair which was salon coloured before being henna'ed which is still very much the copper henna I was applying. It does not seem to have lightened at all.

Unfortunately have not got any pictures after the second lightening.

To my mind the honey lightening definitely worked on my hair. I will try it again when I next have time to be sticky and drippy!

Happy Lightening!

[ktani]

History
My ends have been repeatedly dyed and henna'ed. I then grew virgin hair for 18 months. I had it coloured once at a salon and then started henna'ing again. I did about 1 henna gloss, 1 full henna treatment and 3 henna roots between October 08 and March 09.

Honey Lightening 1
May 09 I did my first honey lightening after reading a substantial amount of this thread. My mix was 4 Tbl Honey / 16 Tbl cool, boiled Water / 1 Tsp Cinnamon / 2 Tbl Coconut Oil which I left on for 2 hours under saran wrap. Very drippy and messy. This removed my most recent henna roots treatment and lifted a little of the colour at the ends. Found that there was too much coconut oil in that mix and it took ages to get rid of.

Lemon / Conditioner
I tried this a couple of days after the first honey lightening - partly to try and get rid of the greasies from the coconut oil and partly to experiment with the lightening of the henna. Seemed a little lighter all over, but it may just have been the removal of the oil which makes my hair appear darker.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3211&pictureid=40686
You can see the virgin roots around 1 inch and the honey lightened henna around 1 inch before it moves back to the copper henna

Honey Lightening 2
June 09 I did my second honey lightening - could not remember the exact mix (info was at work). My mix was 2 Tbl Honey / 12 Tbl cool, boiled Water / 1 Tsp Cinnamon / 1 Tbl Coconut Oil which I left on for 1 1/2 hours under saran wrap. Less drippy and messy as I did not make as much, but hair was completely covered. This removed more henna from the roots and lifted even more of the colour at the ends. The roots were significantly extended and my hair is very nearly back to virgin colour at the roots - this portion was virgin hair which was henna'ed and then lightened. My ends are very close to my virgin colour and I guess one more lightening would take them almost back to virgin. However, I have a band between my roots and the ends which was the virgin hair which was salon coloured before being henna'ed which is still very much the copper henna I was applying. It does not seem to have lightened at all.

Unfortunately have not got any pictures after the second lightening.

To my mind the honey lightening definitely worked on my hair. I will try it again when I next have time to be sticky and drippy!

Happy Lightening!

Thank you so much for your report! I am glad to hear that you are making such good progress!

You proportions are right for the new dilution. 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water is the recipe basic so 2 to 12 is great. Not cooled boiled, but distilled, room temperature water. You do not need to boil it. That probably came from reading about herb tea, which was part of the early recipe variations.

All you need to store for the info is the first post here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1).

Please update when you can. I am very interested in how things go. And thank you for the picture too. I will add this report to the honey lightening and hennaed hair pictures post and the new dilution pictures post. ETA: Done! (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1)

It sounds as if your tap water is just fine. You can try distilled, to see if there is any difference but with the progress you have reported, I would just use your tap water to continue and save some money.

[ktani]

MerryKat

Here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=29754) is a thread on distilled water.

[ktani]

A reminder

This thread is huge!

It can be a great read but it can also be confusing.

I have set up the first post to have all of the current information on honey lightening and the most frequently asked about topics, like how often honey lightening can be done.

I suggest that the first post become the place to browse for information, then reading through the thread will take one through the process of how the new recommendations came to be or evolve.

I am always happy to answer questions but the first post is the best place to start.

[ktani]

This thread, like the peroxide thread is going to be much tighter, easier to read, and a sleeker version.

The first posts of each thread will now be the source for the the most updated information (they are already) but I am hoping that they will be relied on more than they have been. That is what I designed them to be, current resource posts.

It will be much less confusing for those who wish to read the thread in more detail.

I will still be answering questions as needed.

[MerryKat]

Hi Ktani
Thanks for all your tireless efforts to keep this topic so beautifully arranged. I used boiled water because I did not have distilled water at home and wanted to try this immediately. I used boiled rather than straight tap water as we have hard water which my hair hates and the boiled water seems less harsh?

I will update you when I do another lightening and try and get some pictures of the colour variations.

[ktani]

Hi Ktani
Thanks for all your tireless efforts to keep this topic so beautifully arranged. I used boiled water because I did not have distilled water at home and wanted to try this immediately. I used boiled rather than straight tap water as we have hard water which my hair hates and the boiled water seems less harsh?

I will update you when I do another lightening and try and get some pictures of the colour variations.

You are most welcome! My pleasure.

I do not think boiled water makes a difference but you used it at room temperature and you are getting results that you are pleased with and that is what matters.

I look forward to your update and more pictures!

[PhillyGirl1978@]

I've done a few more treatments with the new dilution....today I left it on longer than an hour cause I fell asleep! I love how fast it's working! I think I'll do more tomorrow. I have been spraying more of the mixture around the front for natural highlights, it does look lighter and more shimmery. Now I just got some Punjabi Prime henna mixed and in the freezer. I will be hennaing tomorrow too, after my next honey treatment. Now, I know the red may come out redder and brighter on the parts that are lightened but will it retain the multifaceted shimmer that it has now, or would I have to do a honey treatment over the henna to get that? Also, would it be safe to do another honey treatment later Sunday after I henna? Or is that not a good idea?

[ktani]

I've done a few more treatments with the new dilution....today I left it on longer than an hour cause I fell asleep! I love how fast it's working! I think I'll do more tomorrow. I have been spraying more of the mixture around the front for natural highlights, it does look lighter and more shimmery. Now I just got some Punjabi Prime henna mixed and in the freezer. I will be hennaing tomorrow too, after my next honey treatment. Now, I know the red may come out redder and brighter on the parts that are lightened but will it retain the multifaceted shimmer that it has now, or would I have to do a honey treatment over the henna to get that? Also, would it be safe to do another honey treatment later Sunday after I henna? Or is that not a good idea?

I am so pleased that you are so pleased with your results!

I cannot predict what will happen regarding the multifaceted shimmer you refer to, sorry about that. See what happens when you henna. You can always honey lighten at a later date.

This is from the first post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=287574&postcount=2323) on how often you can honey lighten. The short answer is as often as you like.

[PhillyGirl1978@]

Ok, I will try it. I got honey on my head now, I'm gonna leave it on for over an hour. I am hoping to get some change...maybe a brighter red, or a truer red. I am really hoping to keep the shimmer though...it looks really good. I'm hoping that the red of the henna will just be more shimmery.

I will probably get a chance to do another honey treatment later this week.

[ktani]

Ok, I will try it. I got honey on my head now, I'm gonna leave it on for over an hour. I am hoping to get some change...maybe a brighter red, or a truer red. I am really hoping to keep the shimmer though...it looks really good. I'm hoping that the red of the henna will just be more shimmery.

I will probably get a chance to do another honey treatment later this week.

Cool! Please update. I am very interested in how things turn out for you.

[ktani]

I've done a few more treatments with the new dilution....today I left it on longer than an hour cause I fell asleep! I love how fast it's working! I think I'll do more tomorrow. I have been spraying more of the mixture around the front for natural highlights, it does look lighter and more shimmery. Now I just got some Punjabi Prime henna mixed and in the freezer. I will be hennaing tomorrow too, after my next honey treatment. Now, I know the red may come out redder and brighter on the parts that are lightened but will it retain the multifaceted shimmer that it has now, or would I have to do a honey treatment over the henna to get that? Also, would it be safe to do another honey treatment later Sunday after I henna? Or is that not a good idea?

LOL, I have had a few other things on my mind today, including working on a school project in between posting.

I do not recall, and I checked, your posting previously.

When you are ready, please give the exact recipe you used, (you did say you used the new dilution), your method of application, how if you did, you covered your hair etc, to help others.

[PhillyGirl1978@]

LOL, I have had a few other things on my mind today, including working on a school project in between posting.

I do not recall, and I checked, your posting previously.

When you are ready, please give the exact recipe you used, (you did say you used the new dilution), your method of application, how if you did, you covered your hair etc, to help others.

I think the dilution was like 6 tablespoons of water to one of honey...so I ended up using 24 tablespoons of water and 4 of honey. I put in is a spray bottle and let it sit for about an hour. I sprayed it all over my hair, I focused more on the front sections and left it on for over an hour. After I rinsed and did a vinegar rinse too, I put the henna on and left it for 4-5 hours. I just rinsed a little while ago so I am waiting for it to dry to see how it turned out. So far though the I can see the pieces around my face are a redder and they do still seem to have kept that shimmery color that the honey gave me, so the henna didn't cover that up. I think I may have reached saturation on the lengths though cause it doesn't seem too much redder, but then again it is still a little wet, not to mention it may be a little different once it oxidizes.

[ktani]

I think the dilution was like 6 tablespoons of water to one of honey...so I ended up using 24 tablespoons of water and 4 of honey. I put in is a spray bottle and let it sit for about an hour. I sprayed it all over my hair, I focused more on the front sections and left it on for over an hour. After I rinsed and did a vinegar rinse too, I put the henna on and left it for 4-5 hours. I just rinsed a little while ago so I am waiting for it to dry to see how it turned out. So far though the I can see the pieces around my face are a redder and they do still seem to have kept that shimmery color that the honey gave me, so the henna didn't cover that up. I think I may have reached saturation on the lengths though cause it doesn't seem too much redder, but then again it is still a little wet, not to mention it may be a little different once it oxidizes.

So, you just used honey and water? No boosters like ground cinnamon or oil. Cool!

What kind of water? Tap or distilled? No covering? You were misting, though.

Your dilution was right on the mark for the new diltion and method if I read you right.

Sorry for so many questions. One last one. The type and brand name of the honey, please. I want to add it to the Successful Honeys List.

[PhillyGirl1978@]

The honey was just the Acme Brand Clover honey, and I just used honey and water no cinnamon or anything. It was just tap water too, yeah so I just misted. I used the whole mixture and it was enough to spray until I was dripping. I covered with a shower cap and went about my day for a little over an hour. I think I might do another treatment later this week to see if I can get some more highlights before my reunion.

[ktani]

The honey was just the Acme Brand Clover honey, and I just used honey and water no cinnamon or anything. It was just tap water too, yeah so I just misted. I used the whole mixture and it was enough to spray until I was dripping. I think I might do another treatment later this week to see if I can get some more highlights before my reunion.

Thank you so much for the further details and the honey information!

You obviously have great tap water. It is rare but it has been reported. I will add the honey to the list and I look forward to further updates, as to your progress. Pictures are optional but are always welcome!

ETA: Done! http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=854

If you do take pictures from this point on (before and after), please try for direct sunlight, no flash but they are not required, as I said. To me, your report is fine as it is now.

[Reptilia]

Any tips on making application less messy? haha
I'm covered in this sticky mess! Put hair on top of my head, covered with a plastic bag, a shower cap, and two stretchy headband things to "seal" it off. I'm still dripping all over the place!

[ktani]

Any tips on making application less messy? haha
I'm covered in this sticky mess! Put hair on top of my head, covered with a plastic bag, a shower cap, and two stretchy headband things to "seal" it off. I'm still dripping all over the place!

LOL, that has come up a few times. It depends on the recipe size you made too and applied. It sounds as if you are well covered!

Even with all of that you can still get uneven, drier patches.

I will not be negative though. In between wiping yourself down, can you please give details as to your recipe?

I already know your method but not the application method itself. And I am not laughing at you. I get all bagged up for my catnip treatments.

I just use a freezer bag, stretched at the opening and I twist it at my forehead and tuck the extra in and under. The treatment hardly drips at all these days because I have squeezed out extra water from my hair first, if that helps.

[Reptilia]

I did a cup of distilled water, 1/4 cup honey, tablespoon each of ground cinnamon, cardamon and evoo. The drips stopped after about 20 minutes, almost time to rinse!

[ktani]

I did a cup of distilled water, 1/4 cup honey, tablespoon each of ground cinnamon, cardamon and evoo. The drips stopped after about 20 minutes, almost time to rinse!

You are short by 1/2 cup distilled water for the new dilution but see what your results are like. Depending on the honey, that may not matter. It is about the honey pH.

And thank you so much for the details!

[Reptilia]

Thanks! Well here are the results for my first application. I don't notice a huge difference, but there is one nonetheless! I'm going to try again in a couple weeks with the new dilution and a different honey (I have a bunch waiting to be tried out!)
I let the mixture sit for one hour, then applied and let it sit on my head for 2 hours. I did CO wash to get it out, everything is nice and soft and shiny!

I did 1 cup distilled water, 1/4 unpasterized clover honey from a local farm, 1 tablespoon each of cinnamon, cardamon and evoo.

The length of my hair is old bleached hair. About the first 6 inches or so is new virgin hair.
Before:

No Flash
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/BeforeNoFlash.jpg

Flash
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/BeforeFlash.jpg

Roots No Flash
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/B4rootsnoflsh.jpg

Roots Flash
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/b4rootsflsh.jpg

After:

No Flash:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/AfterNoFlash.jpg

Flash:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/AfterFlash.jpg

Roots No Flash:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/AfterRootsNoFlash.jpg

Roots Flash:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/AfterRootsFlash.jpg

[ktani]

Thanks! Well here are the results for my first application. I don't notice a huge difference, but there is one nonetheless! I'm going to try again in a couple weeks with the new dilution and a different honey (I have a bunch waiting to be tried out!)
I let the mixture sit for one hour, then applied and let it sit on my head for 2 hours. I did CO wash to get it out, everything is nice and soft and shiny!

I did 1 cup distilled water, 1/4 unpasterized clover honey from a local farm, 1 tablespoon each of cinnamon, cardamon and evoo.

The length of my hair is old bleached hair. About the first 6 inches or so is new virgin hair.
Before:

No Flash
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/BeforeNoFlash.jpg

Flash
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/BeforeFlash.jpg

Roots No Flash
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/B4rootsnoflsh.jpg

Roots Flash
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/b4rootsflsh.jpg

After:

No Flash:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/AfterNoFlash.jpg

Flash:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/AfterFlash.jpg

Roots No Flash:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/AfterRootsNoFlash.jpg

Roots Flash:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b396/soserene/AfterRootsFlash.jpg

Thank you so much for taking the time to take pictures!

Lighting can be tricky but I do see some difference, especially on the length.

However, what I do or do not see is not what matters. It is what you see, in terms of whether the honey lightening worked for you.

I am so pleased for you that you are pleased with the condition of your hair as well.

Please keep track of the different honey results. That may not only be helpful to you but others too.

And please keep updating!

ETA: I added your report to the Pictures Post for blonde hair. You may want now to increase the amount of distilled water, to raise the pH of the solution. 1/4 cup honey for the new dilution needs 1.5 cups distilled water. Or, you can just use the tablespoon method of measurement, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of distilled water, 2 to 12 etc.

[Reptilia]

Thank ktani! I tried to make the lighting the same as much as possible, camera's can be fussy though!

I will definitly keep an update on trying it again with the new dilution.

[ktani]

Thank ktani! I tried to make the lighting the same as much as possible, camera's can be fussy though!

I will definitly keep an update on trying it again with the new dilution.

My pleasure! Your hair looks great, by the way.

[ShaSha]

I was wondering if there is any information about "old" honey being more potent than new.

Background: I was arranging the dressing room of my sauna today. It's a separate building from my house, surrounded by trees so it stays coolish all summer. In winter I only warm it enough so it stays a bit above freezing point. Anyway... I discovered a pot of honey and decided to do a honey treatment after many months. (That honey was originally bought for skin treatments in sauna, but I'm not much a "sauna person" so I'd forgotten about it :o )

So I dampened my hair, applied lots of honey, put on a plastic bag, a towel and went back out to finish some things. Very cool temperature outside today. After few minutes my head got very warm, stayed that way for a while (15-20 minutes?) and then got uncomfortably cool. So I went inside to wash my hair and get it dry. But I definately think there was a chemical reaction, because of the sudden warmth and then the sudden coolness.

After drying my hair was a shade or two lighter than before.

So... I was wondering... I seem to get a lighter hair with honey without any measuring. I just apply some of it. But the honey I've used has been old, forgotten in a cupborad (or in sauna dressing room in this case :D ) for a long time (I don't use much honey in cooking.).

The honey in todays treatment was at least 5 years old.

*Edited to add that checked the date in the pot, november 2004 so I'm not sure if it's the year of making it or the last selling date. *

[ktani]

I was wondering if there is any information about "old" honey being more potent than new.

Background: I was arranging the dressing room of my sauna today. It's a separate building from my house, surrounded by trees so it stays coolish all summer. In winter I only warm it enough so it stays a bit above freezing point. Anyway... I discovered a pot of honey and decided to do a honey treatment after many months. (That honey was originally bought for skin treatments in sauna, but I'm not much a "sauna person" so I'd forgotten about it :o )

So I dampened my hair, applied lots of honey, put on a plastic bag, a towel and went back out to finish some things. Very cool temperature outside today. After few minutes my head got very warm, stayed that way for a while (15-20 minutes?) and then got uncomfortably cool. So I went inside to wash my hair and get it dry. But I definately think there was a chemical reaction, because of the sudden warmth and then the sudden coolness.

After drying my hair was a shade or two lighter than before.

So... I was wondering... I seem to get a lighter hair with honey without any measuring. I just apply some of it. But the honey I've used has been old, forgotten in a cupborad (or in sauna dressing room in this case :D ) for a long time (I don't use much honey in cooking.).

The honey in todays treatment was at least 5 years old.

*Edited to add that checked the date in the pot, november 2004 so I'm not sure if it's the year of making it or the last selling date. *

Honey can have a very long shelf life depending on how it is stored. It needs to be kept away from heat, light and moisture, the exact conditions you refer to.

The pH of the honey as well as the peroxide level it can produce are variables in how much water you can use. When you covered your hair, body heat possibly added to the moisture level, in terms of sweat, which may have evaportated and made you feel chilled.

I am very pleased for you that you got such great results. What is the brand name and type of the honey you used?

[ktani]

Shasha

If, when you were working outside but had your head covered, and if you sweat from your scalp, that may just have been enough to dilute the honey and help with lightening. Salt and honey lightening came up recently as a topic, in reference to information in this post, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=676594&postcount=3968, that was raised as a topic of discussion separately, recently. Part of the recent discussion on salt and honey lightening is here on this page, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=148&page=407

[ktani]

I still do not think it is necessary to add salt to a honey lightening recipe but it may be an option. I do not recommend adding to much though. Human blood levels of salt are not high on average.

" .... The normal range for blood sodium levels is 135 to 145 milliequivalents per liter (mEq/L). ...." (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003481.htm)

This may help translate the above, http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_do_you_convert_157_mg_of_sodium_to_mEq

I would just start out with a "pinch" of salt, or salt to taste, lol, easier.

This is much easier to understand.
".... On average human sweat contains 920mg to 1,150 mg of sodium per litre ....."
http://www.cadagotavaleapena.com.br/shared/common/images/pdfs/TheImportanceofElectrolytes_en_GB.pdf

[ktani]

Some of the problems with buying honey today, even when you think that the honey you have bought is pure and organic.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/394198_honey31.asp

[ktani]

The 2 most important things used in a honey lightening recipe are the honey and the water, IMO. Then there is the method used. The current state of the honey industry and not necessarily knowing exactly what kind of honey one is buying does not help matters.

Honey has been reported on these boards to lighten all kinds of hair colour and all shades of hair colour, prior to any of the Honey threads, and there have been 5 to date, including this one. No hair damage has been reported from the peroxide produced from any honey lightening recipe, new or old or from any recipe used prior to the threads.

Honey residue can and has been reported to be a problem with no long term consequences, except in 2 cases, 1 where it kept returning in quantity no matter what honey or method was used to remove it and in another a long while back, where no lightening had occurred and water only was used to wash the hair at the time. Shampooing has been reported to be the best method for that.

[ktani]

Please see the first post of this thread for all things related to current honey lightening recipes and more.

I am always available to answer questions and will reply, if needed.

New reports are always welcome!

[twilight_faerie]

I have a question. I don't think it's been answered previously. Can diluted honey mixes be store after the peroxide has released? I'm doing a honey lightening treatment at the moment and I made waaaay too much of the honey/water mix. Can I store it or should I just chuck it?

[ktani]

I have a question. I don't think it's been answered previously. Can diluted honey mixes be store after the peroxide has released? I'm doing a honey lightening treatment at the moment and I made waaaay too much of the honey/water mix. Can I store it or should I just chuck it?

It has been asked before but that is no problem. It is not in the first post links in any case.

You can store it for a day or so but I would not go much beyond 24 hours of a stored mix in the fridge, not because it can go off but because the peroxide level can peak and then decline. That varies with the honey.

[twilight_faerie]

It has been asked before but that is no problem. It is not in the first post links in any case.

You can store it for a day or so but I would not go much beyond 24 hours of a stored mix in the fridge, not because it can go off but because the peroxide level can peak and then decline. That varies with the honey.

Oh! Sorry about that. I usually try not to ask questions that have already been answered.

In any case, thanks for replying! :)

[ktani]

Oh! Sorry about that. I usually try not to ask questions that have already been answered.

In any case, thanks for replying! :)

There is no problem with a repeat question. I am glad to have helped out. This thread is huge and this topic as not come up more than a few times. I will add it to the first post, in one of the links to make things easier for others.

Thank you and you are most welcome!

ETA: I added my reply as an ETA in the first link of the first post, slightly edited but not for content.

[ktani]

I'm doing a honey lightening treatment at the moment ....

Please update as to how things go!

[ktani]

I do not mind answering any question on honey lightening.

The first post has explanations with links though and it is the best place to start, to understand how the recipes can work and the variables that can be involved.

[nowxisxforever]

I took a look at the original post, but didn't see anything on using honey as simply a moisture treatment (not in an SMT, my hair doesn't like those) without any lightening.

I imagine it works much the same as with an SMT, with honey, and water, microwave it to kill whatever lightens hair, and then put it on... but I've heard good things about honey so far as conditioning properties are concerned and am interested in that. Any input?

[ktani]

I took a look at the original post, but didn't see anything on using honey as simply a moisture treatment (not in an SMT, my hair doesn't like those) without any lightening.

I imagine it works much the same as with an SMT, with honey, and water, microwave it to kill whatever lightens hair, and then put it on... but I've heard good things about honey so far as conditioning properties are concerned and am interested in that. Any input?

This thread really is more about honey lightening but it is all things honey too.

For what you want, conditioning, I suggest mixing honey with conditioner and either microwaving the honey separately, for 30 seconds to under 1 minute, or microwaving the the mix.

While the honey and distilled water mix has been reported to be conditioning too, it is about maximizing the chances for honey lightening to succeed.

[nowxisxforever]

This thread really is more about honey lightening but it is all things honey too.

For what you want, conditioning, I suggest mixing honey with conditioner and either microwaving the honey separately, for 30 seconds to under 1 minute, or microwaving the the mix.

While the honey and distilled water mix has been reported to be conditioning too, it is about maximizing the chances for honey lightening to succeed.

Yeah, I know it's a fair bit more about lightening, but it's the best thread I could think of for my question :)

Hmmm, ok. Maybe I'll do a bit more of an experiment mixture then-- so long as I nuke the honey it shouldn't lighten, correct?

[ktani]

Yeah, I know it's a fair bit more about lightening, but it's the best thread I could think of for my question :)

Hmmm, ok. Maybe I'll do a bit more of an experiment mixture then-- so long as I nuke the honey it shouldn't lighten, correct?

You are correct. Microwaving has been reported at the longer time, to successfully destroy the enzyme in honey that generates hydrogen peroxide.

I suggest starting with a 2 to 1 conditioner to honey mix. A good conditioner to try is/was Aussie Cleanse and Mend. It was reported to interfere with honey lightening in any case, while at the same time, offering great conditioning.

[nowxisxforever]

You are correct. Microwaving has been reported at the longer time, to successfully destroy the enzyme in honey that generates hydrogen peroxide.

I suggest starting with a 2 to 1 conditioner to honey mix. A good conditioner to try is/was Aussie Cleanse and Mend. It was reported to interfere with honey lightening in any case, while at the same time, offering great conditioning.

Hmmmm, win.
Ok, I think I will try that-- probably not what that conditioner since I haven't seen it locally, but will look into it.

Thanks again!

[ktani]

Hmmmm, win.
Ok, I think I will try that-- probably not what that conditioner since I haven't seen it locally, but will look into it.

Thanks again!

My pleasure! If you cannot find that one, great coneless conditioners were reported to be ones by V05, Suave and other brands. None were expensive.

[Tangles]

I was going to try a treatment yesterday so I mixed a dilution and left it out. Didn't have time to put it on my hair, so now it's been sitting in my kitchen for a day. Can I still use it? What happened to the peroxide?

[ktani]

I was going to try a treatment yesterday so I mixed a dilution and left it out. Didn't have time to put it on my hair, so now it's been sitting in my kitchen for a day. Can I still use it? What happened to the peroxide?

That is hard to say. It depends on the honey. The peroxide level of a honey can peak in that time and decline but there is no way to know unless you try it. If it looks or smalls bad, throw it out, if not, try it and see. In my opinion, it should be ok but I cannot guarantee that.

[Tangles]

That is hard to say. It depends on the honey. The peroxide level of a honey can peak in that time and decline but there is no way to know unless you try it. If it looks or smalls bad, throw it out, if not, try it and see. In my opinion, it should be ok but I cannot guarantee that.

I just made a new batch. :) (Wow, you replied fast!)

[ktani]

I just made a new batch. :) (Wow, you replied fast!)

It just depends on when I am online, lol. I am in the middle of 2 school projects in which I am researching case law and learning about contracts, and differences in court structures. It is taking a lot of my time but I am loving it.

I still keep an eye on the recipes and the friendship boards but my attention is mostly elsewhere right now, as it should be for me.

[Tangles]

It just depends on when I am online, lol. I am in the middle of 2 school projects in which I am researching case law and learning about contracts, and differences in court structures. It is taking a lot of my time but I am loving it.

I still keep an eye on the recipes and the friendship boards but my attention is mostly elsewhere right now, as it should be for me.

I hear you, I'm a grad student. As the semester begins to hit harder, I probably won't have much time for LHC, but I always manage to check in at least a couple times a week. LOL.

[ktani]

I hear you, I'm a grad student. As the semester begins to hit harder, I probably won't have much time for LHC, but I always manage to check in at least a couple times a week. LOL.

I check in about twice a day now to relax and see what is happening but the projects are increasing and I am in research heaven.

I just learned yesterday, that although much of the case law I need to research is online, and is what many law firms use (complete cases for citing precedents) that the courts here still prefer photocopies from law books, for presentation in court.

There is actually a movement here pushing for acceptence of electronic versions of case law to be accepted by the courts but it is meeting resistance, even though the photocopies are transferred to word files, and then printed out.

ETA: I am more than a bit distracted lol. Please update on how things go with your recipe. I will reply if required and I can help out.

[Tangles]

It went wonderfully! I tried it once before (not sure the dilution was proper last time) but results are better now. I think after a couple treatments, I might get the light brown color I want! (I've gone on and on about wanting darker hair, but I think that light brown would suit me better than the purplish shades I'd gotten from henndigo.)

[ktani]

It went wonderfully! I tried it once before (not sure the dilution was proper last time) but results are better now. I think after a couple treatments, I might get the light brown color I want! (I've gone on and on about wanting darker hair, but I think that light brown would suit me better than the purplish shades I'd gotten from henndigo.)

Great news! I am glad for you that you are so pleased. It can take several treatments for someone to get the results wanted.

[Centifolia]

I'm considering this method to lighten a little bit my hair but I have a few questions:
-Should I wash my hair before (poo/co)? Or just use water? I don't know if the oils and stuff can minimize the power of the honey.
-Can I make a bottle of the mixture and use that more than once?

[ktani]

I'm considering this method to lighten a little bit my hair but I have a few questions:
-Should I wash my hair before (poo/co)? Or just use water? I don't know if the oils and stuff can minimize the power of the honey.
-Can I make a bottle of the mixture and use that more than once?

I wrote this post here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096, to cover most questions. See #10.

The short answer, is that a honey lightening treatment can be used on wet or dry hair (the new dilution is water based entirely), washed or unwashed hair but it depends on what is already on the hair and how much of it is present, in the form of residue or aloe gel, for example.

I suggest keeping a batch no longer than about 24 hours, if you want to use leftovers, just in case the peroxide level of the recipe starts to decline.

Some oils like jojoba and a butter like shea butter have been reported in the peroxide thread, to interfere with conventional peroxide lightening. So, if either is on your unwashed hair, in any larger quantity or in the form of build-up, it could act as a coating that IMO, would definitely interfere with honey lightening.

[Centifolia]

That's nice that it can be used in dry hair, it's easier to know if I didnt't forget some spot.
Well, I'm just using a litlle EVOO right now, so I think it won't interfere. Thanks a lot for the fast answer. (:
I will try that soon.

[ktani]

That's nice that it can be used in dry hair, it's easier to know if I didnt't forget some spot.
Well, I'm just using a litlle EVOO right now, so I think it won't interfere. Thanks a lot for the fast answer. (:
I will try that soon.

Evoo and coconut oil are fine to use. They are honey lightening boosters (they contain a peroxide level of their own and have been reported to boost the performance of a honey lightening recipe). Here you go, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370, for added information.

And you are most welcome. I have the day off school, lol.

[papillion]

Has anyone had good results from using deionised water? So far I've only tried tap water, and I'm getting barely any lightening (if at all).

I've not attempted honey lightening again since a couple of months ago, as it just seemed like far too much effort for very little result. I'm already using a honey from the successful honey list, so finding a better water to use seems the next logical step.

[OhMyCurlz]

If you want to lighten your hair, a guaranteed way is by using Alpha Hydroxy acids....they will DEFINITELY lighten your hair and because they are so sensitive to intense sun exposure the FDA requires those who sell it to have a disclaimer on their product. I made a toner with a lot of fruit acids in it and applied it to my hair as a spritz and it lightened my hair two-three shades. My sister dyed her hair and it lightened that as well.

Shade


Has anyone had good results from using deionised water? So far I've only tried tap water, and I'm getting barely any lightening (if at all).

I've not attempted honey lightening again since a couple of months ago, as it just seemed like far too much effort for very little result. I'm already using a honey from the successful honey list, so finding a better water to use seems the next logical step.

[ktani]

Has anyone had good results from using deionised water? So far I've only tried tap water, and I'm getting barely any lightening (if at all).

I've not attempted honey lightening again since a couple of months ago, as it just seemed like far too much effort for very little result. I'm already using a honey from the successful honey list, so finding a better water to use seems the next logical step.

Deionozed water has been reported to work well.

[ktani]

If you want to lighten your hair, a guaranteed way is by using Alpha Hydroxy acids....they will DEFINITELY lighten your hair and because they are so sensitive to intense sun exposure the FDA requires those who sell it to have a disclaimer on their product. I made a toner with a lot of fruit acids in it and applied it to my hair as a spritz and it lightened my hair two-three shades. My sister dyed her hair and it lightened that as well.

Shade

Can you please give more details as to your exact recipe in terms of measurements and proportions and which fruit acids you used.

Was there any hair damage with this method? How long did you stay in the sunlight?

[papillion]

Deionozed water has been reported to work well.

Thanks, I'll have to get some and give it a try.

[ktani]

Thanks, I'll have to get some and give it a try.

You are most welcome!

You should be able to get both, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369 but deionized should be fine.

[papillion]

I've not been able to find distilled water, though I'm still looking. If nothing else, it should be better than tap water, which is the main thing.

[ktani]

I've not been able to find distilled water, though I'm still looking. If nothing else, it should be better than tap water, which is the main thing.

That is very true. Some tap waters have been reported to be fine for honey lightening. Others not so much.

[Tangles]

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd344/lbphe/001honeylightening.jpg

Medium-dark brown hair lightened with 5 or 6 (hour long) treatments to a light-medium brown shade. Reddish but not henna like red. Am very pleased with results but am afraid to continue the treatments (worried about damage).

[ktani]

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd344/lbphe/001honeylightening.jpg

Medium-dark brown hair lightened with 5 or 6 (hour long) treatments to a light-medium brown shade. Reddish but not henna like red. Am very pleased with results but am afraid to continue the treatments (worried about damage).

Great news and great colour! There have been 0 reports of damage with honey lightening, lightening results. 0 in five threads, including this one. There are protective constituents in every honey lighteing recipe ingredient, including honey that offset the free radical damage peroxide can cause. Natural peroxide has not ever been reported to damage hair. The peroxide produced by honey is on average 1000 times weaker than conventional 3&#37; peroxide but it can still lighten hair colour.

Can you please post your exact recipe and proportions for others and so I can add your results to the picture posts? Do you have a before pic?

And I please need to know what if anything was on your hair in terms of colouring before you began the treatments. You had mentioned henndigo?

[Tangles]

Ktani--I used the normal dilution with TAP (!!) water. Used Whole Foods Wildflower Amber Honey and 1 tbsp EVOO per recipe. Left mixture on for only around an hour each time for fear of damage and dryness.

Before: My hair had a tiny bit of leftover henndigo on it:
http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd344/lbphe/hair.jpg

But the after picture has a lot of flash in it, so my actual result isn't QUITE that light. :)

[ktani]

Ktani--I used the normal dilution with TAP (!!) water. Used Whole Foods Wildflower Amber Honey and 1 tbsp EVOO per recipe. Left mixture on for only around an hour each time for fear of damage and dryness.

Before: My hair had a tiny bit of leftover henndigo on it:
http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd344/lbphe/hair.jpg

But the after picture has a lot of flash in it, so my actual result isn't QUITE that light. :)

Thank you for the before picture and reply with details.

I am interpreting normal dilution as the new dilution. Lighting can be a problem but no worries, you gave verbal details.

I will put your report in the new dilution and henndigo Picture Posts.

[Tangles]

Yes it's the new dilution. :) Thanks ktani!!! I will continue doing treatments I guess...

[ktani]

Yes it's the new dilution. :) Thanks ktani!!! I will continue doing treatments I guess...

My pleasure! Your report is in the 2 posts in the first post of this thread, both of your posts, included.

I am going to add your honey to the Successful Honeys List as well. I forgot to do that earlier, lol. I am on break from something else but will do it now. Thank you for including it in your report!

Except that I need you to tell me what country you are in, lol. ETA: Added to U.S. honeys

[Fethenwen]

I just wanted to report that my hair has gotten a little lighter from my last SMT :) I used quite a lot of honey and did not heat it up.
I thought the conditioner in the recipe would sort of deplete the peroxide or something, but apparently it did not.
My mother also noticed that my hair was noticeably lighter. I'm not sure if the results are as noticeable as that time when I did a full honey lightening with cardamom drops and olive oil.
I really like the shade honey gives, it gives a sort of warm golden tint to my red. Sort of takes away the burgundyness.

I didn't do any more honey lightenings after that one time last spring, because I had such troubles getting the olive oil out of my hair :o But I think I could do this with nothing but honey and water and maybe some cardamom. I think I will do this regularly from now on, to add shine and keep my henna the color I want it (should start using cassia mixed with henna too though).

[ktani]

I just wanted to report that my hair has gotten a little lighter from my last SMT :) I used quite a lot of honey and did not heat it up.
I thought the conditioner in the recipe would sort of deplete the peroxide or something, but apparently it did not.
My mother also noticed that my hair was noticeably lighter. I'm not sure if the results are as noticeable as that time when I did a full honey lightening with cardamom drops and olive oil.
I really like the shade honey gives, it gives a sort of warm golden tint to my red. Sort of takes away the burgundyness.

I didn't do any more honey lightenings after that one time last spring, because I had such troubles getting the olive oil out of my hair :o But I think I could do this with nothing but honey and water and maybe some cardamom. I think I will do this regularly from now on, to add shine and keep my henna the color I want it (should start using cassia mixed with henna too though).

Great news, since you are pleased with the results! Thank you for the report.

Honey lightening has been reported to work nicely on hennaed hair. Your earlier report is here too, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654115&postcount=3919.

Unheated SMT's have been reported to lighten hair before. It depends on the honey and the recipe, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299163&postcount=2379.

Honey lightening can and has been reported to work on any shade of hair colour, including natural black hair and coloured hair of all colours. It has not been reported, as has mistakenly been posted elsewhere, to work only on lighter shades of hair colour or dyed hair colour.

Conditioners were reported to be inconsistent in results (it depends on the conditioner just like honey lightening results depend on the honey used as well as the water and the recipe) with the old honey lightening recipes and the desired results were slower to achieve than with the new dilution and recipes but the old recipes were reported to work and work well in many instances.

Oil in general has been reported to be more easily removed using conditioner only to wash it out.

The cassia mixed with the henna to reduce the amount of henna colour is an excellent idea for your future applications. That has been reported to work very well and makes sense. You are limiting the amount of henna and blending it with something else.

Cassia can yield a reddish tone too but has not been reported to darken hair in the same way that henna can and is not permanent but it can be stubborn to remove. It can darken lighter shades of colour with a red/gold tint, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332.

[plainjanegirl]

I just wanted to report that my hair has gotten a little lighter from my last SMT :) I used quite a lot of honey and did not heat it up.
I thought the conditioner in the recipe would sort of deplete the peroxide or something, but apparently it did not.
My mother also noticed that my hair was noticeably lighter. I'm not sure if the results are as noticeable as that time when I did a full honey lightening with cardamom drops and olive oil.
I really like the shade honey gives, it gives a sort of warm golden tint to my red. Sort of takes away the burgundyness.

I didn't do any more honey lightenings after that one time last spring, because I had such troubles getting the olive oil out of my hair :o But I think I could do this with nothing but honey and water and maybe some cardamom. I think I will do this regularly from now on, to add shine and keep my henna the color I want it (should start using cassia mixed with henna too though).

I'm curious of what the smt recipe was that you used and got lightening from? also what kind of conditioner did you use? I might do some to get some lightening. I don't care for the regular honey recipe.

[Fethenwen]

I'm curious of what the smt recipe was that you used and got lightening from? also what kind of conditioner did you use? I might do some to get some lightening. I don't care for the regular honey recipe.

Well I eyeballed the ingredients, but as I remember the ratios was:

about one (not that full) table spoon of honey

and one table spoon of conditioner

half a table spoon aloe vera geel


The conditioner I used is made in my country, but I could list some ingredients:

It was with aloe vera, hemp and sea-buckthorn berries. And also rosmary and grapefruit essential oils. Citric acid and cetearyl alcohol.

[ktani]

Well I eyeballed the ingredients, but as I remember the ratios was:

about one (not that full) table spoon of honey

and one table spoon of conditioner

half a table spoon aloe vera geel


The conditioner I used is made in my country, but I could list some ingredients:

It was with aloe vera, hemp and sea-buckthorn berries. And also rosmary and grapefruit essential oils. Citric acid and cetearyl alcohol.

If you leave out the aloe gel (the 1/2 tablespoon), you can get even more lightening.

[plainjanegirl]

Well I eyeballed the ingredients, but as I remember the ratios was:

about one (not that full) table spoon of honey

and one table spoon of conditioner

half a table spoon aloe vera geel


The conditioner I used is made in my country, but I could list some ingredients:

It was with aloe vera, hemp and sea-buckthorn berries. And also rosmary and grapefruit essential oils. Citric acid and cetearyl alcohol.

Thanks for the info! Wonder what conditioner that I could use?

[ktani]

Thanks for the info! Wonder what conditioner that I could use?

One without heavy oils and that is not too thick. Here is the old preferred conditioner list, http://chatter.thebeautybottle.com/showpost.php?p=17926&postcount=1. Ignore the suggested recipes with tomato paste and Vitamin C containing ingredients like hibiscus. Some of the conditioners mentioned may no longer be around. They were all light though. The reported results using conditioner were slower and the lightening less than have been reported with the new dilution recipes you dislike. Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening because of inconsistant results. Fethenwen's honey is a very, very good peroxide producer and apparently can withstand being used in solutions and with ingredients that would make a different honey that producess much less peroxide useless. Such honeys seem to be more rare these days but they are out there. Kroger's fireweed honey appears to be one of them from reports.

[lynnala]

Hi Ktani! :waving: I don't know why I haven't tried a honey rinse before (maybe because I don't usually have honey in the house?), but today I used a rinse of 1 teaspoon honey to 4 cups of water after shampooing and did not wash the honey rinse out. Can't tell if it made my hair any shinier, but wow, it sure added body! I like it! My question is: is there such a thing as honey build up? Can there be too much of a good thing? I'd like to do this every time I wash my hair now, which is every 3 to 4 days. What is your advice, oh honey guru? Thanks!

[ktani]

Hi Ktani! :waving: I don't know why I haven't tried a honey rinse before (maybe because I don't usually have honey in the house?), but today I used a rinse of 1 teaspoon honey to 4 cups of water after shampooing and did not wash the honey rinse out. Can't tell if it made my hair any shinier, but wow, it sure added body! I like it! My question is: is there such a thing as honey build up? Can there be too much of a good thing? I'd like to do this every time I wash my hair now, which is every 3 to 4 days. What is your advice, oh honey guru? Thanks!

Hi lynnala. Your hair will dry before the honey has a chance to lighten it, if your honey is a good peroxide producer and your tap water is fairly low in minerals.

As to build-up, not necessarily. It depends on how much if your honey leaves a discernible residue. If it does, shampooing should remove it.

[lynnala]

Thank you Ktani!

[ktani]

My pleasure!

[jessie58]

Hi Ktani honey, lol. Our resident honey expert!

Just catching up on this thread. Great job and research.

[ktani]

Hi Ktani honey, lol. Our resident honey expert!

Just catching up on this thread. Great job and research.

Thank you jessie!

Always a pleasure to see you on the boards. I know that things have been difficult for you this past while. I hope that things are better. I am behind on blogs again. ETA: Caught up with yours and pmed.

[Shar2]

Thanks for putting this thread together, it's been extremely helpful!

[ktani]

Thanks for putting this thread together, it's been extremely helpful!

You are most welcome! And Welcome to LHC!

[Xandergrammy]

How long do I have to microwave honey so that it DOESN'T lighten my hair? I've tried to find the answer here, but am not having any luck. Thanks a bunch.

[ktani]

How long do I have to microwave honey so that it DOESN'T lighten my hair? I've tried to find the answer here, but am not having any luck. Thanks a bunch.

30 seconds to under 1 minute. And you are most welcome.

[earthymamawitch]

Had a question about doing multiple applications of honey in one day. I know I've read it's safe to do it as often as you like w/o resting the hair in between, since it's so gentle. However, if one does a session (1-2 hrs most likely) and then rinses out, should you shampoo before applying more, or just rinse out well and then slather more on?

Jenn

[ktani]

Had a question about doing multiple applications of honey in one day. I know I've read it's safe to do it as often as you like w/o resting the hair in between, since it's so gentle. However, if one does a session (1-2 hrs most likely) and then rinses out, should you shampoo before applying more, or just rinse out well and then slather more on?

Jenn

You can leave a treatment on longer than 2 hours. Honey peroxide level peaks vary but usually, based on reports, 1 to 2 hours is sufficient per treatment for timing.

You do not have to shampoo in between a series of treatments. If there is honey residue, you can shampoo at the end of the series, if necessary. Not all honeys leave a discernible residue.

[earthymamawitch]

ktani,

I was under the impression that lightening pretty much stopped at around 2 hrs and that in order to lighten further one needed to rinse and reapply - did I misunderstand that? Is there some point that it stops working? Or will leaving it on cause continued lightening?

Thanks!
Jenn

[ktani]

ktani,

I was under the impression that lightening pretty much stopped at around 2 hrs and that in order to lighten further one needed to rinse and reapply - did I misunderstand that? Is there some point that it stops working? Or will leaving it on cause continued lightening?

Thanks!
Jenn

An hour on the hair per treatment has been reported to be sufficient for the new dilution recipes to lighten hair colour the way some people have wanted. Some people prefer to leave a treatment on longer.

From the research, different honeys have different peroxide level peak times. Some may peak and then decline rapidly in 24 hours, others in 2 hours or less. It depends on the honey.

[Madame J]

Does honey have to be mixed with water (or a water-based ingredient) to lighten? I'm thinking about adding honey to my pre-shampoo coconut oil treatment, but both of them can release peroxide, so I want to be careful with it. I *don't* want to lighten.

[ktani]

Does honey have to be mixed with water (or a water-based ingredient) to lighten? I'm thinking about adding honey to my pre-shampoo coconut oil treatment, but both of them can release peroxide, so I want to be careful with it. I *don't* want to lighten.

Honey slowly releases peroxide when mixed with a substance that contains water, for example, conditioner, or shampoo.

How much peroxide that remains on release or is released depends on other factors like the honey itself, the pH of the solution, constituents or ingredients in the solution (like Vitamin C) or minerals in the solution and whether the solution has been heated and by what kind of heat and for how long.

For what you are planning and the results that you do not want, I suggest microwaving the honey separately, for 30 seconds to under 1 minute, unless your pre-treatment will be on the hair for a very short time like about 10 minutes. Any time over that, like an hour or so would have the possibility of the honey lightening your hair.

[Madame J]

Honey slowly releases peroxide when mixed with a substance that contains water, for example, conditioner, or shampoo.

How much peroxide that remains on release or is released depends on other factors like the honey itself, the pH of the solution, constituents or ingredients in the solution (like Vitamin C) or minerals in the solution and whether the solution has been heated and by what kind of heat and for how long.

For what you are planning and the results that you do not want, I suggest microwaving the honey separately, for 30 seconds to under 1 minute, unless your pre-treatment will be on the hair for a very short time like about 10 minutes. Any time over that, like an hour or so would have the possibility of the honey lightening your hair.

I don't have a microwave. Is it the heat or the other radiation that destroys the enzymes in honey? Would you get a similar result heating the honey in boiling water (supposedly a microwave cooks by boiling water) or would you need to apply microwaves of a specific frequency?

(I wonder what the guys in the lab would think if I put a dish of honey in front of their microwave horn...)

[ktani]

It is the heat that destroys the enzyme.

[ktani]

Factors that can negatively affect the peroxide honey has produced are; heat, UV, Vitamin C and minerals, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096.

[Tresses]

ktani, I have searched, but something is not clear to me about heating the honey. I keep seeing instructions to heat the honey for 30 seconds to under 1 minute, but no indication for how much honey these instructions are for. For example, 1 TBS of honey would take less time to heat than 2 TBS of honey would take less time than 1/4 cup of honey, etc. Are these directions for heating the honey by itself or mixed with other ingredients (i.e., in an SMT mix)?

My SMT results with honey are superior than with molasses, but I don't want to risk lightening my hair.

Can you clarify (no pun intended ;)) the details for heating the honey? As microwaves differ in power, is there a way to tell by looking? If it begins to bubble, has it been heated too much? Is it possible to overheat the honey?

Thank you. :)

[Halo]

I read the honey thread and absolutely want to try it but I have one question. Other than Jarrah honey they do not respond to my inquries what other honey can I buy that has a high volume of perioxde. I read what not to buy but what other honey in the States is best to use. Also my has is a very pale blonde and I do not want to add any color. I read the honey mixture will not add color. So am I correct that even on porous hair it will not grab a weird color? I plan on using 2 tbsp of cardamon to the mixture when I can find the honey. My hair is has been lifted this light with a highlift tint and my growout is a level 7 or light brown.
Thank you

[ktani]

ktani, I have searched, but something is not clear to me about heating the honey. I keep seeing instructions to heat the honey for 30 seconds to under 1 minute, but no indication for how much honey these instructions are for. For example, 1 TBS of honey would take less time to heat than 2 TBS of honey would take less time than 1/4 cup of honey, etc. Are these directions for heating the honey by itself or mixed with other ingredients (i.e., in an SMT mix)?

My SMT results with honey are superior than with molasses, but I don't want to risk lightening my hair.

Can you clarify (no pun intended ;)) the details for heating the honey? As microwaves differ in power, is there a way to tell by looking? If it begins to bubble, has it been heated too much? Is it possible to overheat the honey?

Thank you. :)

The 30 seconds to under 1 minute is a guide. I would apply that to any amount used whether the honey separately or mixed in an SMT, especially since microwaves do vary in temperature and evenness of temperature.

[ktani]

I read the honey thread and absolutely want to try it but I have one question. Other than Jarrah honey they do not respond to my inquries what other honey can I buy that has a high volume of perioxde. I read what not to buy but what other honey in the States is best to use. Also my has is a very pale blonde and I do not want to add any color. I read the honey mixture will not add color. So am I correct that even on porous hair it will not grab a weird color? I plan on using 2 tbsp of cardamon to the mixture when I can find the honey. My hair is has been lifted this light with a highlift tint and my growout is a level 7 or light brown.
Thank you

There are honeys for the U.S. and North America in the Successful Honeys List, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin. One in particular that has been reported to be excellent is Kroger's fireweed honey.

[Halo]

Hi, thanks for writing. The Krogers Fireweed honey. Is this a brand distibuted by Fred Meyers stores in the US? Or will any fireweed honey work and is it better than the clover honey? I happen to have some Busy Bee clover honey I never used and I have everything to start but want to use the honey that has the strongest power to lighten. Also can you clarify for me because my hair is extra long down to my elbows if this is the correct dilution 1/4 cup honey to 1-1/2 cups distilled water and then 1 or 2 tbsp of cardamon.
Thank you for your help.
Halo

[ktani]

Hi, thanks for writing. The Krogers Fireweed honey. Is this a brand distibuted by Fred Meyers stores in the US? Or will any fireweed honey work and is it better than the clover honey? I happen to have some Busy Bee clover honey I never used and I have everything to start but want to use the honey that has the strongest power to lighten. Also can you clarify for me because my hair is extra long down to my elbows if this is the correct dilution 1/4 cup honey to 1-1/2 cups distilled water and then 1 or 2 tbsp of cardamon.
Thank you for your help.
Halo

Yes it is the Fred Myers Kroger's fireweed honey that is the one reported to be so good.

Billy Bee has been reported to be good too though and your dilution is correct. You can also do the dilution in tablespoons to custumize it. 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc.

[ktani]

Billy Bee honey recently started to be available in the U.S. They have also been blending it with honeys from outside Canada. Canadian honeys were reported to be fairly good peroxide producers from a study I posted a good while back. Honeys from certain countries, depending on the source can be tricky. There have been problems reported within the honey industry with "honeys" on the market being blends of unknown origin and quality. This has been going on for a few years now.

It does not help matters when choosing a honey for honey lightening and it is happening around the world. I have posted about it before. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/394198_honey31.asp.

Israel, http://www.free-press-release.com/news-phoney-honey-being-sold-in-israel-1253018522.html.

Africa, http://allafrica.com/stories/200909170401.html

Malasia, http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2009/06/fake-honey-sold-to-tourists-in-malaysia.html

France, http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2009/05/new-test-detects-fake-honey.html

[Halo]

Thanks again for the input. I am very excited to try this we have a Fred Meyers right down the street. Invaluable information and I sure hope I am successful as everyone else who has done this. I have been trying for such a long time to get away from chemicals but it seemed that was the only choice I had because I love pale hair and mine is naturally a light brown. But in the process coloring destroys the hair. I'll get the fireweed honey hopefully they still carry it. If not I'll use what I have. Have you ever seen Jarrahs honey in the States for sell? Again, I'll use 1/4 cup honey to 1-1/2 cups distilled water and 2 tbsp of the cardamon for the extra boosting action on wet hair. I'll use a clarifying shampoo to get rid of the serums I use to comb my hair and then I should be set to go.

[ktani]

Thanks again for the input. I am very excited to try this we have a Fred Meyers right down the street. Invaluable information and I sure hope I am successful as everyone else who has done this. I have been trying for such a long time to get away from chemicals but it seemed that was the only choice I had because I love pale hair and mine is naturally a light brown. But in the process coloring destroys the hair. I'll get the fireweed honey hopefully they still carry it. If not I'll use what I have. Have you ever seen Jarrahs honey in the States for sell? Again, I'll use 1/4 cup honey to 1-1/2 cups distilled water and 2 tbsp of the cardamon for the extra boosting action on wet hair. I'll use a clarifying shampoo to get rid of the serums I use to comb my hair and then I should be set to go.

You need to import Jarrah honey as far as I know. I would start with the fireweed honey and see if it is available at the store near you. If not they may be able to get it for you from one of their other stores. You have nothing to lose by asking them about that if need be.

And you are most welcome!

[Elenna]

Ktani, I was wondering if honey would lighten the pepper (medium brown colored hair) in my salt 'n pepper hair, so it would blend better with the salt (light silver hair). I am so tried of having hair that isn't one color. Realistically, I know that there is red lurking in the virgin brown hair but I will use a bluing shampoo for that. I just want to lighten the brown hair.

[Halo]

I just did my honey treatment but was unable to find the fireweed honey but I stumbled upon honey made in France at a store called Marshalls Dept. store they get different items from all over and its called Acacia Honey. It stated made from finest beehives in Europe and 100&#37; pure and natural. Do you know how this compares to Jarrah honey? Anyways, I followed all the instructions outlined using 1-1/2 cups distilled water to 1/4 cup of Acacia Honey and 2 tbsp of the cardamon boy it sure down run down you face. I put a plastic cap on and then a lycra cap for one hour. I think it lifted a little but not on my roots which are a light brown they are still the same color. But on my blonde tinted hair it brightened it. I was really hoping not to have to stay with chemicals for my roots. Do you have any suggestions or maybe tell me how I can improve upon the formula I used to try and lift the brown. Thank you.

[ktani]

Halo and Elenna

Honey lightening has been reported to be successful on virgin hair as well as colour-treated and hennaed hair, and on medium shade ranges of colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654111&postcount=3918.

What was reported in the original Honey thread was that some of the cheapest supermarket honeys worked as well as the more expensive organic ones.

What is frustrating now is that honeys are being misrepresented in some cases as pure when they are actually blends of real and fake or all fake "honeys".

Jarrah honey is what I consider to be "the big gun of honeys" in terms of its peroxide value. That does not mean however that it is the only one that can achieve the desired lightening.

I have listed in the first post of this thread honeys to avoid, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370.

More than one honey lightening booster can be added to a recipe. The spices need to be used with caution in terms of amounts because they can be irritating.

Acacia honey is not on the Successful Honeys List that I can see, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin. That does not mean that it is a bad choice though.

If a honey does not work particularly well it can be used as food, provided you like the taste of it and another choice can be made for lightening. I do not consider spending a lot for a honey necessary.

There are cheap clover honeys that have been reported to work well in some cases. It is a question of experimentation.

I can certainly see the difficulty in this, with some people being fortunate enough to get desired results relatively fast or with less numbers of treatments than others.

In some cases that has been down to the method of application or water used or the recipe. Now, the purity of honey can make the whole thing that much more complicated but certainly not impossible.

The reason the microwave time increased for nuking a honey to prevent lighting was because shorter times were reported to not work for honeys that produced good peroxide values.

These results are not that old, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712.

I would just keep at it for a time. There is no risk to hair health reported with honey lightening. Even if no lightening is achieved, great conditioning results have been reported.

Honey residue causing temporary dry ends can be resolved best with shampooing from reports.

[Halo]

Hi, I did more reading on this subject and all I can think of it did not lighten for one of two reasons. The cardamon spice is about 10 years old maybe the potency is too weak?
Also the honey might be weak as you mentioned its hard to know the source even though it says its from the finest bee hives and its imported from France. I think I am going to order the honeydew honey from the website. I read that that is good honey. Would you say that is as good as the firweeed honey or better? I am also going to try and find the cardamon essential oil to use instead.
Is it okay to use the evvo oil lets say 1 tbsp and and 1 tbsp of cardamon oil if I find it or if I can't find the cardamon oil to add 2 tbsp of the new cardamon spice I buy to the 1 tbsp of evvo oil. I made too much mixture last night so I am gong to go down to 1/8 cup honey to 3/4 distilled water but I want to add more boosting power to this mixture as it seems like something was too weak. Although my ends are whiter my upper part of my head did not lighten at all and my roots did not change at all. I read the posting where the lady used 2 drops of cardamon essential oil and it did the trick not sure what would happen if I used 1 tbsp. Any input you have would be greatly appreciated. Maybe its the old cardamon spice I used but then again I don't know if it is in a closed container if it looses its potency.
Thanks again for all your help.

[ktani]

Hi, I did more reading on this subject and all I can think of it did not lighten for one of two reasons. The cardamon spice is about 10 years old maybe the potency is too weak?
Also the honey might be weak as you mentioned its hard to know the source even though it says its from the finest bee hives and its imported from France. I think I am going to order the honeydew honey from the website. I read that that is good honey. Would you say that is as good as the firweeed honey or better? I am also going to try and find the cardamon essential oil to use instead.
Is it okay to use the evvo oil lets say 1 tbsp and and 1 tbsp of cardamon oil if I find it or if I can't find the cardamon oil to add 2 tbsp of the new cardamon spice I buy to the 1 tbsp of evvo oil. I made too much mixture last night so I am gong to go down to 1/8 cup honey to 3/4 distilled water but I want to add more boosting power to this mixture as it seems like something was too weak. Although my ends are whiter my upper part of my head did not lighten at all and my roots did not change at all. I read the posting where the lady used 2 drops of cardamon essential oil and it did the trick not sure what would happen if I used 1 tbsp. Any input you have would be greatly appreciated. Maybe its the old cardamon spice I used but then again I don't know if it is in a closed container if it looses its potency.
Thanks again for all your help.

I cannot compare honeys that easily in the sense you mean. I think that before you order the honeydew honey, try to get some of the Kroger fireweed honey. It has a track record of recent positive reports.

The problem with using too much oil in general is oily hair afterward although you can CO out (wash out the treatment with conditioner instead of shampoo).

The problem with using too much of an essential oil is that they can be sensitizers and are designed to be diluted in carrier oils like in this case, coconut oil or extra virgin olive oil. I do not recommend using a large amout of cardamom oil, a few drops maximum.

[Halo]

I ordered the honeydew honey because I couldn't find the fireweed honey. Everything out there but fireweed. I had read a post that the honeydwew was okay to use on one of the posts you sent me. I also found some cardamon essential oil on amazon. So when I get this I will try it again. I did find that the 2 tbsp of cardamon did make my scalp a little sensitive. Do you think the spice I used was too old being probably close to 10 years old?

[ktani]

I ordered the honeydew honey because I couldn't find the fireweed honey. Everything out there but fireweed. I had read a post that the honeydwew was okay to use on one of the posts you sent me. I also found some cardamon essential oil on amazon. So when I get this I will try it again. I did find that the 2 tbsp of cardamon did make my scalp a little sensitive. Do you think the spice I used was too old being probably close to 10 years old?

I am not saying that the honeydew honey is a bad idea. There is no report to offer you on it but I did research it and it sounds like a very good candidate for honey lightening to me too.

I would keep the ground cardamom down to 1 tablespoon and yes, 10 years old is a long time to keep a spice. However, spices like anything else food related need to be stored properly from day one, in this case away from heat light and moisture.

I look forward to your report as to how the new honey and recipe work out for you. Patch test any new ground cardamom you buy and dilute the cardamom oil in coconut oil or evoo before you patch test it.

[Halo]

Thank you Katina for being very helpful. I have tinted my hair for years and just want to stop destroying it. My hair is very long so the ends are the first to break off. Also I wanted to ask you another questiion. My hair is very light blonde with it being darker blonde toward the sides is there only so much lifting honey can do on pale blonde tinted hair? But then again my roots are the same color so the honey mixture did not work on the brown part at all. But was just curious if on the rest of my hair if it is pale blonde will the honey do any lifting? When I applied my first honey mixture I put it on right away after mixing it so I did not wait an hour for it to sit and then apply as the instructions said you could do it either way. I think for me the cardamon oil is the way to go as I noticed some of the spice had settled at the bottom of the bottle and it did not all get applied to my hair but there was plenty probably in the bottle that was put on. Is one application better than the other? It won't be till next week until my honey and cardamon oil get delivered by mail so I am anxiously awaiting my packages. You mention mixing the cardamon oil with coconut oil. Do I need to do that or can I just mix the cardamon oil straight in the mixture without the coconut oil or Evvo?? But please write and tell me your thoughts about letting the mixture sit versus applying it right away and the lifting of pale blonde hair.
Thank you

[ktani]

Thank you Katina for being very helpful. I have tinted my hair for years and just want to stop destroying it. My hair is very long so the ends are the first to break off. Also I wanted to ask you another questiion. My hair is very light blonde with it being darker blonde toward the sides is there only so much lifting honey can do on pale blonde tinted hair? But then again my roots are the same color so the honey mixture did not work on the brown part at all. But was just curious if on the rest of my hair if it is pale blonde will the honey do any lifting? When I applied my first honey mixture I put it on right away after mixing it so I did not wait an hour for it to sit and then apply as the instructions said you could do it either way. I think for me the cardamon oil is the way to go as I noticed some of the spice had settled at the bottom of the bottle and it did not all get applied to my hair but there was plenty probably in the bottle that was put on. Is one application better than the other? It won't be till next week until my honey and cardamon oil get delivered by mail so I am anxiously awaiting my packages. You mention mixing the cardamon oil with coconut oil. Do I need to do that or can I just mix the cardamon oil straight in the mixture without the coconut oil or Evvo?? But please write and tell me your thoughts about letting the mixture sit versus applying it right away and the lifting of pale blonde hair.
Thank you

You are most welcome.

Essential oils are not the same as carrier oils. They are powerful and in just about all cases with very few if any exceptions, they need to be diluted in order not to sensitizers.

I cannot predict results of how light that you may be able to get your hair with honey lightening. I can offer you pictures of the results others have gotten and their reports, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654105&postcount=3917

[Halo]

Would you say 1 tbsp dilution would be okay to use to two drops of cardamon oil? I looked at the pictures and they are amazing. Maybe my hair is too light to lighten anymore so it would be fine if the honey lightening would just do my dark hair.
After dying my hair with peroxide I wouldn't think my scalp could be sensitive to the oil but I've never tried that before.

[ktani]

Would you say 1 tbsp dilution would be okay to use to two drops of cardamon oil? I looked at the pictures and they are amazing. Maybe my hair is too light to lighten anymore so it would be fine if the honey lightening would just do my dark hair.
After dying my hair with peroxide I wouldn't think my scalp could be sensitive to the oil but I've never tried that before.

Start with the 2 drops. Just make sure that it is pure essential oil not extract.

Reactions vary with products. One can have a non reactive scalp or skin in general and then react to something specific. Patch testing is recommended for most things one has not used before. With things like essential oils or known possible sensitizers, that becomes more importent.

A member from Australia offered to ship Jarrah honey to those who want it for much less than vendors. I have not repeated her post offer because I did not want her to be inundated with requests, even though it was she who initiated the idea. I will pm her to see if she is still willing to do so and if so, I will give you her name to pm her.

[amaiaisabella]

I decided to try a honey lightening treatment today as my chemical color has faded considerably and I'd like to try lightening naturally before I color again. I did the 2 tablespoons of my grocery store pure clover honey and 12 tablespoons of the distilled water, let sit for half an hour, and then applied on freshly washed hair since I had some oil on from earlier. I am looking forward to seeing how it comes out, but am quite exasperated since it keeps dripping everywhere. Is there any way to add something that serves as a thickener, or should I get a more secure shower cap? I'm using a plastic coloring baggie-cap and a grocery store plastic bag to trap in moisture but it's dripping like mad!

[ktani]

I decided to try a honey lightening treatment today as my chemical color has faded considerably and I'd like to try lightening naturally before I color again. I did the 2 tablespoons of my grocery store pure clover honey and 12 tablespoons of the distilled water, let sit for half an hour, and then applied on freshly washed hair since I had some oil on from earlier. I am looking forward to seeing how it comes out, but am quite exasperated since it keeps dripping everywhere. Is there any way to add something that serves as a thickener, or should I get a more secure shower cap? I'm using a plastic coloring baggie-cap and a grocery store plastic bag to trap in moisture but it's dripping like mad!

The good news is that it sounds like your hair is thoroughly wet with the treatment. You do not have to use the entire recipe if it is too much for your hair though. I researched most thickeners and failed to find any that would not negatively affect the recipes, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=280629&postcount=2277. Here is the post on treatment application and covering a treatment, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=324104&postcount=2583.

[amaiaisabella]

Thanks, ktani :) I'll try saran wrap next time. Hopefully I can remember to do these once a week! My hair feels like silk since it's dried, so it would be no hardship.

[ktani]

Thanks, ktani :) I'll try saran wrap next time. Hopefully I can remember to do these once a week! My hair feels like silk since it's dried, so it would be no hardship.

My pleasure! Great news on the condition of your hair!

[Halo]

I found that I had the same problem it was dripping like mad too. A lycra swim cap works and with me the liquid stopped running after about 5 minutes. Put a plastic cap on first or saran wrap and then put the lycra swim cap over wear a towel over your shoulder. Let us know how the lightening turns out.

[hmmm]

Do you have any information on Dabur honey? It's all I've been using on my hair for a long time... but I don't know what the better honeys are like...

[rach]

thought i'd leave a bit of feed back here -
i've been using shakari and mixed in i've used honey and water to make the paste up. And i've left it on damp hair clipped up for say 15 minutes or so at each wash for the conditioning benefits flowed with a catnip soak which leaves my hair really shinny (leaves my hair very balanced and nice).
A side effect which hasn't been bad is it has briefly brightened up my henna red colour (like i may expect from say from natural sun lightening) briefly until i re-applied henna again to normal full satiation shade i get, but i'm not really bothered about being a brighter colour but it was an interesting experiment. But to someone who wants a slightly brighter red shade this is a slow and gentle way to do it....... should they wish to do so.

[ktani]

thought i'd leave a bit of feed back here -
i've been using shakari and mixed in i've used honey and water to make the paste up. And i've left it on damp hair clipped up for say 15 minutes or so at each wash for the conditioning benefits flowed with a catnip soak which leaves my hair really shinny (leaves my hair very balanced and nice).
A side effect which hasn't been bad is it has briefly brightened up my henna red colour (like i may expect from say from natural sun lightening) briefly until i re-applied henna again to normal full satiation shade i get, but i'm not really bothered about being a brighter colour but it was an interesting experiment. But to someone who wants a slightly brighter red shade this is a slow and gentle way to do it....... should they wish to do so.

Thank you so much for the feedback! Yes, that is a very interesting experiment and definetely worth noting.

It makes sense to me that the 15 minutes repeated so often can add up to some gradual brightening. I really appreciate your telling me about it. Honey lightening on hennaed hair has not been reported done this way before.

[Jorchet]

Hi! I'm just wondering, would the creamy honey be the same as the liquid honey? I can't get any of the recommended honeys, but I saw one called BioWay, which maybe it's related to the Bio21 from Brazil which actually is on the list. But it's the white, creamy kind, so I haven't decided to buy it yet. We don't eat honey at home, so buying it and it not working would be pretty useless. What do you think?

Thanks in advance!

[ktani]

Hi! I'm just wondering, would the creamy honey be the same as the liquid honey? I can't get any of the recommended honeys, but I saw one called BioWay, which maybe it's related to the Bio21 from Brazil which actually is on the list. But it's the white, creamy kind, so I haven't decided to buy it yet. We don't eat honey at home, so buying it and it not working would be pretty useless. What do you think?

Thanks in advance!

I cannot predict what the result may be. I go by reports after looking into a honey, for example Jarrah honey was stated to have a high peroxide level and reports using it were all positive. The Successful Honeys List is the same. I would enquire about the honey in question first, if the 2 are related and how.

[blueroses79]

Just wanted to report success with honey lightening on the new dilution. No pics yet. But I've done 2 treatments, to lighten hair that had been buxus-ed to neutralize the crazy red of too-intense henna; even though I let the buxus sit for 24 hrs, it ended up making my hair mousy brown all over. Upwards of 20 washes wouldn't wash it out. Now I can happily report that it's pretty much my natural color again - dark blonde (with henna highlights here and there).

Stats:
Honey - Capilano Australian honey, from Kroger - 1/4 c
distilled water - 1 c
cardamom - 2 tbsp.
:p

Pics when I get around to it.

[ktani]

Do you have any information on Dabur honey? It's all I've been using on my hair for a long time... but I don't know what the better honeys are like...

Sorry that I missed this question. I am not familiar with Dabur honey and it has not been reported on. I would go by the results you get, depending on what you want it to do, condition or condition and lighten.

[ktani]

Just wanted to report success with honey lightening on the new dilution. No pics yet. But I've done 2 treatments, to lighten hair that had been buxus-ed to neutralize the crazy red of too-intense henna; even though I let the buxus sit for 24 hrs, it ended up making my hair mousy brown all over. Upwards of 20 washes wouldn't wash it out. Now I can happily report that it's pretty much my natural color again - dark blonde (with henna highlights here and there).

Stats:
Honey - Capilano Australian honey, from Kroger - 1/4 c
distilled water - 1 c
cardamom - 2 tbsp.
:p

Pics when I get around to it.

Wonderful news! I would love to see pics but just know that they are not required here. They are welcome though.

You are off by 1/2 cup technically with the dilution for the new dilution but that is not what matters. Results matter and yours are very positive. Honeys vary. With that honey, you were able to use less water and still get lightening you are pleased with. That indicates to me that the honey in question has a higher pH. I will add the honey you used to the Successful Honeys List.

[Bunnyears]

Hello Ktani! I'm back on the honey lightening wagon. Having had zero success two years ago (turns out because I was using buckwheat honey,) I gave up entirely, but I see we've come a long way since the initial honey/VO5 treatments!

I've been doing treatments almost every day now, with the new dilution using a saran wrap. I'm seeing some brassy undertones in my otherwise mousy brown hair, especially on the very ends, where hair is especially porous. I can't say my healthy (unbleached) roots are as receptive of the hydrogen peroxide in the honey. I wonder if the healthy roots are resilient because they're not porous, like the ends (which are just above my waist?) Simultaneously, I wonder how the hydrogen peroxide at the right pH of distilled water actually penetrates into the hair shaft without something like traditional ammonia? Perhaps we could improve the honey's lightening effect on hair if we found a natual/less harsh version of ammonia to facilitate the penetration of honey's hydrogen peroxide?

Also, I have a different sort of question - is it okay to wet my hair every day? It's very porous and remains wet for up to 8 hours (if I don't brush it through.) I've been doing overnight treatments, which leave my hair wet for 8 hours or so. I remember reading somewhere that wetting hair too often may be destructive to hair, as it destroys the moisture/dryness balance as it messes with the hair's elasticity.

[ktani]

Hello Ktani! I'm back on the honey lightening wagon. Having had zero success two years ago (turns out because I was using buckwheat honey,) I gave up entirely, but I see we've come a long way since the initial honey/VO5 treatments!

I've been doing treatments almost every day now, with the new dilution using a saran wrap. I'm seeing some brassy undertones in my otherwise mousy brown hair, especially on the very ends, where hair is especially porous. I can't say my healthy (unbleached) roots are as receptive of the hydrogen peroxide in the honey. I wonder if the healthy roots are resilient because they're not porous, like the ends (which are just above my waist?) Simultaneously, I wonder how the hydrogen peroxide at the right pH of distilled water actually penetrates into the hair shaft without something like traditional ammonia? Perhaps we could improve the honey's lightening effect on hair if we found a natual/less harsh version of ammonia to facilitate the penetration of honey's hydrogen peroxide?

Also, I have a different sort of question - is it okay to wet my hair every day? It's very porous and remains wet for up to 8 hours (if I don't brush it through.) I've been doing overnight treatments, which leave my hair wet for 8 hours or so. I remember reading somewhere that wetting hair too often may be destructive to hair, as it destroys the moisture/dryness balance as it messes with the hair's elasticity.

Welcome back! I do not think an alkali is necessary for honey lightening but if you want to experiment and report back by all means try. I am not fond of using alkaline products. They can be damaging.

I think that the roots can be harder to lighten sometimes because with honey lightening, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment during the 1 hour and body heat, especially during application, tends to dry the roots fast.

I do not think that you need to do 8 hour honey lightening with the new dilution. That is the convenience of it. It has been reported to lighten hair better than the previous dilutions in only 1 hour.

[hmmm]

Sorry that I missed this question. I am not familiar with Dabur honey and it has not been reported on. I would go by the results you get, depending on what you want it to do, condition or condition and lighten.

I tried the honey yesterday as part of a conditioning treatment with egg yolk. I didn't dilute it with water as it was pretty liquid. There was no residue or build up and my hair was left very soft and conditioned. I think I will try a lightening treatment soon.

[Fethenwen]

Aaah :cloud9: I'm doing another honey treatment as I type. I think this is such a lovely way to treat my hair, it gets a little lighter and at the same time gets tons of moisture. And then there is the olive oil to seal the moisture. I've finally learned how to do oil treatments, so I used one table spoon of EVOO without having to worry about getting my hair too oily :)
It was quite some time ago my last honey treatment, that one went really well.
I took a before picture today, lets see if I will notice much difference.

[Fethenwen]

Ok, here's the update. My hair turned out plain awesome :cheese:

I don't see that much of a difference in lightness, at least not on these photos. But the condition of it is astounding!
All in all, I definitely seem to have gotten a brighter color if not much lighter, the red is more orange and even less burgundy than it was before. I really do like it that way.
I forgot to leave the honey mix to sit for an hour before applying, but next time I will remember to do so. I had it in my hair for 1 hour and 15 min, I had added olive oil and five drops of cardamom EO, smells soo good by the way.


So this was before, my hair was a little dirty and unbrushed. But it still shows off the condition and color quite well:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=56929

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=56930


Aaand here are the afters:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=56931

(Woah, I'm starting to get quite a contrast between my ends and the rest of my hair, due to me starting using cassia with my henna recently)

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=56932

Look at that shine! And this is taken without a flash. I luuuurve honey :cloud9:

[ktani]

I tried the honey yesterday as part of a conditioning treatment with egg yolk. I didn't dilute it with water as it was pretty liquid. There was no residue or build up and my hair was left very soft and conditioned. I think I will try a lightening treatment soon.

If you are happy with a recipe's results then by all means continue with it. I am glad to read that you are enjoying using honey on your hair without any downside.

[ktani]

Ok, here's the update. My hair turned out plain awesome :cheese:

I don't see that much of a difference in lightness, at least not on these photos. But the condition of it is astounding!
All in all, I definitely seem to have gotten a brighter color if not much lighter, the red is more orange and even less burgundy than it was before. I really do like it that way.
I forgot to leave the honey mix to sit for an hour before applying, but next time I will remember to do so. I had it in my hair for 1 hour and 15 min, I had added olive oil and five drops of cardamom EO, smells soo good by the way.


So this was before, my hair was a little dirty and unbrushed. But it still shows off the condition and color quite well:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=56929

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=56930


Aaand here are the afters:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=56931

(Woah, I'm starting to get quite a contrast between my ends and the rest of my hair, due to me starting using cassia with my henna recently)

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=56932

Look at that shine! And this is taken without a flash. I luuuurve honey :cloud9:

I am so glad that you are so happy with your treatment results. I do not see a lot of difference in the colour either this time. Last time (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712)it was very obvious to me. Cassia, when mixed with an acid (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332)yields red/gold tones. For conditioning without colour from it, mix it with distilled water and do not let it sit for dye release.

[Fethenwen]

Hmm, I wonder if the results from back then was more obvious because I had a darker shade of henna overall, and it lifted off a lot of henna. It's hard to tell.

Nevermind :) I like doing this treatment even if it doesn't lighten it that much, I will try again later this week I think. To make the best of my hair for a party, I think I will take another photo in the same light to see if there is any difference then.

[ktani]

Hmm, I wonder if the results from back then was more obvious because I had a darker shade of henna overall, and it lifted off a lot of henna. It's hard to tell.

Nevermind :) I like doing this treatment even if it doesn't lighten it that much, I will try again later this week I think. To make the best of my hair for a party, I think I will take another photo in the same light to see if there is any difference then.

Cool! Pictures are not required here but they are always welcome and I love to see them. I also think that they help others see the results of what honey lightening can or cannot do with different recipes and methods.

[Phalaenopsis]

I now have the new dilution on my head, made with acacia honey. But my hair is not dripping wet. I've been reading the thread, but I can't find why exactly it is important that the hair must be dripping wet.

[ktani]

I now have the new dilution on my head, made with acacia honey. But my hair is not dripping wet. I've been reading the thread, but I can't find why exactly it is important that the hair must be dripping wet.

The hair does not have to be dripping wet. I recommend that it be evenly wet throught the treatment process.

[Phalaenopsis]

I made a booboo :o I didn't add enough honey. I'll try to do another honey treatment the day after tomorrow. I'm going to take a picture today so I can compare.

[ktani]

I made a booboo :o I didn't add enough honey. I'll try to do another honey treatment the day after tomorrow. I'm going to take a picture today so I can compare.

No worries. How does your hair feel?

[Phalaenopsis]

It felt softer than ever. :)

I couldn't wait, so I already have the following honey treatment on my head.:o

[ktani]

It felt softer than ever. :)

I couldn't wait, so I already have the following honey treatment on my head.:o

That is great news! Good luck!

[hmmm]

I used honey and water to mix up my herb wash today. I don't know if it will result in any lightening, but I put it in because my scalp was feeling itchy and dry. The herbs I used were shikakai, ritha, methi, bhringraj, amla and neem. There's very little amla though, how much do you think is required to neutralise the peroxide?

[ktani]

I used honey and water to mix up my herb wash today. I don't know if it will result in any lightening, but I put it in because my scalp was feeling itchy and dry. The herbs I used were shikakai, ritha, methi, bhringraj, amla and neem. There's very little amla though, how much do you think is required to neutralise the peroxide?

For a herb wash not left on the hair for any length of time, you need not worry about any lightening. Under 10 minutes or so the amount of peroxide produced would be very minimal.

The amount of Vitamin C in amla is under debate. Vitamin C does deplete hydrogen peroxide but amla also adds colour to hair. Between those two factors, it would be difficult to assess which was at work.

The easiest way to ensure that no lightening can result from using diluted honey, is to microwave it for 30 seconds to under 1 minute.

[hmmm]

Hi, thanks for replying ktani. I left it on for one hour. I can't see any noticeable lightening, but the one lightening treatment I did wasn't noticeable either. Does oil on the hair/scalp prevent it from being effective? I don't heat the honey, as I'm not too particular on what colour my hair is :p

[ktani]

Hi, thanks for replying ktani. I left it on for one hour. I can't see any noticeable lightening, but the one lightening treatment I did wasn't noticeable either. Does oil on the hair/scalp prevent it from being effective? I don't heat the honey, as I'm not too particular on what colour my hair is :p

You are most welcome!
Shikakai can stain hair too. Your mix is not really a honey lightening treatment. Some oils can interfere with honey lightening. It also depends on how much honey to water you are using. If you are not concerned with the colour your hair is as a result of your mix, I would not worry about it.

[Tiliantti]

I am trying to get my natural haircolor back. I have had henna on my head now for one year and I have done about 5 wholehead henna treatments. Is it possible to get rid of henna with honey lightenings? (It doesn't mater if result is lighter than my own color really is, I just miss that moysybrown...)

Yesterday I mixed honey, cheap conditioner, lemon juice and ground cardamom and applied it to dry hair... Now I have feeling, that my haircolor is a little bit different, but I cant say what have changed.

I read this thread, and I think that I am going to try proper honey lightening next weekend. And I try to get cardamom oil from one webshop when it comes back from christmassbreak.
Can I mix cardamom oil with jojobaoil, or do I have to buy oliveoil?

[ktani]

I am trying to get my natural haircolor back. I have had henna on my head now for one year and I have done about 5 wholehead henna treatments. Is it possible to get rid of henna with honey lightenings? (It doesn't mater if result is lighter than my own color really is, I just miss that moysybrown...)

Yesterday I mixed honey, cheap conditioner, lemon juice and ground cardamom and applied it to dry hair... Now I have feeling, that my haircolor is a little bit different, but I cant say what have changed.

I read this thread, and I think that I am going to try proper honey lightening next weekend. And I try to get cardamom oil from one webshop when it comes back from christmassbreak.
Can I mix cardamom oil with jojobaoil, or do I have to buy oliveoil?

Jojoba oil has been reported to interfere with lightening using conventional peroxide. I would use extra virgin oilive oil or coconut oil and leave out the lemon juice (Vitamin C can deplete the peroxide in the treatment).

[Tiliantti]

OK:) I have now done two treatments(I planned to do it next weekend, but I couldn't wait) with tap water, Sam Italian forest honey, ground cardamom and ground cinnamon. First I let it be on my head over night and second time for two hours. I dont see any difference:(
So next I will try same recipe it steril water and evo oil... If it still doesn't work, I think I am going to quit and eat all honey thats left.

[ktani]

OK:) I have now done two treatments(I planned to do it next weekend, but I couldn't wait) with tap water, Sam Italian forest honey, ground cardamom and ground cinnamon. First I let it be on my head over night and second time for two hours. I dont see any difference:(
So next I will try same recipe it steril water and evo oil... If it still doesn't work, I think I am going to quit and eat all honey thats left.

Please do update and let me know how it goes. Good luck!

[Tiliantti]

0,5dl Sam Italian forest honey, 3dl sterile water, 1tbl evo-oil, random amount of ground cinnamon and cardamom. I let it be on my hair for two hours under... cling wrap? Saran wrap? That very thin plastic wrap anyways... and result is nothing.
I scanned part of my hair before treatment and in this morning and there really isn't any difference.
I think I am going to try one last time today in evening, and if it still doesn't work, I quit:(

[ktani]

0,5dl Sam Italian forest honey, 3dl sterile water, 1tbl evo-oil, random amount of ground cinnamon and cardamom. I let it be on my hair for two hours under... cling wrap? Saran wrap? That very thin plastic wrap anyways... and result is nothing.
I scanned part of my hair before treatment and in this morning and there really isn't any difference.
I think I am going to try one last time today in evening, and if it still doesn't work, I quit:(

I am sorry to hear that your recipe is not working. Here are the details of fethenwen's report, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712. I hope that they can help you.

[Tiliantti]

I am sorry, I forgot to update:(
Henna hasn't lightened at all, but I think that my roots are a bit lighter than before... So maybe I try again when I have grown enough virgin hair to cut henna away. My own color is quite boring, not dark and not blonde, so I think it would be more interesting, if I lighten it a bit.

[ktani]

I am sorry, I forgot to update:(
Henna hasn't lightened at all, but I think that my roots are a bit lighter than before... So maybe I try again when I have grown enough virgin hair to cut henna away. My own color is quite boring, not dark and not blonde, so I think it would be more interesting, if I lighten it a bit.

No worries about the update.

Henna can be very stubborn to lighten. I am glad for you that at least your virgin hair shows some results. A bathing cap with saran (plastic wrap) under it has been reported to be a very good covering for a honey lightening treatment and has also been reported to help reduce drips.

[xoxophelia]

Maybe I should add this to here..

I had semiperm black and some perm black in my hair -_-...

Mixed:
1:1 honey, conditioner
1 TBSP olive oil
~1/2 tsp hydrogen peroxide

Applied to damp hair, left it in wrapped up for 1 hour.

Shampooed leaving it in for about 10 minutes.

Jojoba oil leave in over night and then a gentle rinse.

I saw a definite improvement on the demarcation line where my virgin and colored hair meet. It was subtle but definite. I got addition improvement over the next two washes.

[ktani]

Maybe I should add this to here..

I had semiperm black and some perm black in my hair -_-...

Mixed:
1:1 honey, conditioner
1 TBSP olive oil
~1/2 tsp hydrogen peroxide

Applied to damp hair, left it in wrapped up for 1 hour.

Shampooed leaving it in for about 10 minutes.

Jojoba oil leave in over night and then a gentle rinse.

I saw a definite improvement on the demarcation line where my virgin and colored hair meet. It was subtle but definite. I got addition improvement over the next two washes.

Thank you so much for the report! I am glad that the recipe worked for you.

ljkforu reported results with honey lightening on black dyed ends, without the addition of conventional peroxide or conditioner.

ljkforu - on previously black dyed ends, hennaed hair, with tap water, ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455932&postcount=3335

ljkforu - more information on her honey lightening recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=433208&postcount=3270

ljkforu - feedback from those around her, in real life
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=437566&postcount=3282

There are more reports with the new dilution, minus both conditioner and conventional peroxide here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=457007&postcount=3341

[cottage46]

Looks like tomorrow is going to be a snow day so I'm going to try a honey treatment. I have clover honey, distilled water and evoo on hand so that's what I'm planning to use. I've read that it should be left on for at least an hour. Should I go longer for a first time try? And does honey lightening do anything to cover/disguise gray hair? I don't have a ton, but I'm not loving the grays I do have.

[ktani]

Looks like tomorrow is going to be a snow day so I'm going to try a honey treatment. I have clover honey, distilled water and evoo on hand so that's what I'm planning to use. I've read that it should be left on for at least an hour. Should I go longer for a first time try? And does honey lightening do anything to cover/disguise gray hair? I don't have a ton, but I'm not loving the grays I do have.

Good luck! You can leave a treatment on longer than the hour. As to covering grey honey lightening is not reported to ad colour to hair but if it lightens it may help blend it for you.

[Marjolein]

Hello Ktani,

Thank you so much for al your research and keeping the thread updated. It truly is invaluable information!

What i'd like to ask (because I can't find it via the search function): Have there already been Dutch people who've done a succesful honey lightening? I'd like to know what brand of honey they used, because I don't see any Dutch brands in the recommended list.

Thank you!

[ktani]

Hello Ktani,

Thank you so much for al your research and keeping the thread updated. It truly is invaluable information!

What i'd like to ask (because I can't find it via the search function): Have there already been Dutch people who've done a succesful honey lightening? I'd like to know what brand of honey they used, because I don't see any Dutch brands in the recommended list.

Thank you!

You are most welcome. Thank you for your kind words.

If there were any Dutch brands mentioned and I usually ask, they would be on the list. I do not recall any Dutch reports on honey lightening in this thread.

[Marjolein]

Well, guess I'll be the Dutch guinea pig then. I'll let you know!

[ktani]

Well, guess I'll be the Dutch guinea pig then. I'll let you know!

Please do!

[Marjolein]

Ok, so i tried it only once and noticed no lightening results. I have made before and after pictures, but there really isn't any difference. I'll post them after I've done more treatments, if and when there are actual results to show.

Here's what I did (in minute detail ;)):

My hair: I have a few layers of henna/cassia in my hair. My last henna/cassia dye job was 1 1/2 weeks before the honey lightening treatment.

First: I washed my hair with a SLS-free shampoo (Urtekram) and Cone-free conditioner (generic brand). I put a little aloe vera gel (98% pure) on my lenghts and a tiny bit of coconut oil on my very tips.

The next day I made my mix: 4 tablespoons of "Euroshopper" bee honey, 24 tablespoons of demineralized water, 1 tablespoon of grounded cinnamon. I left it on my countertop for 1 1/4 hour, then applied it to dry hair with a dye application bottle. This took only a few minutes because the mixture was soooo runny. I wrapped my hair in plastic wrap and stayed put in my bathroom for one hour.

Washing it out: First I rinsed the majority of the mix out. Then I applied some sls-free shampoo on my scalp, massaged it a bit and let it sit for a minute. Rinsed. I then applied a fairly heavy cone-free conditioner on my lenghts, let it sit for 3 minutes and rinsed. My hair was still sticky. So I put another, much lighter, cone-free conditioner on my lengths and let this sit for 2 more minutes. Washed it out and the stickyness was gone. I ended with a white vinegar rinse wich I left on my hair for about a minute before washing out.

Sorry for the super long post, but I thought if you know every single thing I did, then perhaps you can help me tweak my method into something that might actually lighten my hair a bit.

[Marjolein]

Oh, just another thing about the cinnamon: I read some posts about the effect of cinnamon on sensitive skin. I also didn't feel anything on my scalp, but the cinnamon did cause some redness and hot skin/burning sensation on my face. The burning sensation went away after about 5 minutes into the treatment and the redness was gone after I washed it all out.

[ktani]

Ok, so i tried it only once and noticed no lightening results. I have made before and after pictures, but there really isn't any difference. I'll post them after I've done more treatments, if and when there are actual results to show.

Here's what I did (in minute detail ;)):

My hair: I have a few layers of henna/cassia in my hair. My last henna/cassia dye job was 1 1/2 weeks before the honey lightening treatment.

First: I washed my hair with a SLS-free shampoo (Urtekram) and Cone-free conditioner (generic brand). I put a little aloe vera gel (98&#37; pure) on my lenghts and a tiny bit of coconut oil on my very tips.

The next day I made my mix: 4 tablespoons of "Euroshopper" bee honey, 24 tablespoons of demineralized water, 1 tablespoon of grounded cinnamon. I left it on my countertop for 1 1/4 hour, then applied it to dry hair with a dye application bottle. This took only a few minutes because the mixture was soooo runny. I wrapped my hair in plastic wrap and stayed put in my bathroom for one hour.

Washing it out: First I rinsed the majority of the mix out. Then I applied some sls-free shampoo on my scalp, massaged it a bit and let it sit for a minute. Rinsed. I then applied a fairly heavy cone-free conditioner on my lenghts, let it sit for 3 minutes and rinsed. My hair was still sticky. So I put another, much lighter, cone-free conditioner on my lengths and let this sit for 2 more minutes. Washed it out and the stickyness was gone. I ended with a white vinegar rinse wich I left on my hair for about a minute before washing out.

Sorry for the super long post, but I thought if you know every single thing I did, then perhaps you can help me tweak my method into something that might actually lighten my hair a bit.

Thank you so much for the report!

I will deal with both of your posts at once and troubleshoot, if I may. Sorry to hear that you have not had any lightening.

"First: I washed my hair with a SLS-free shampoo (Urtekram) and Cone-free conditioner (generic brand). I put a little aloe vera gel (98% pure) on my lenghts and a tiny bit of coconut oil on my very tips."

Aloe gel contains approximately 3 x the vitamin C of lemon juice. It is not recommended to be on the hair before a honey lightening treatment. Vitamin C is oxidized by peroxide and the peroxide is depleted in the process. Having conditioner on the hair as well, depending on the kind and amount is not the best idea either. Certain conditioner ingredients can interfere with honey lightening results.

Your mix is right and your method. If the hair is kept wet enough there is a good chance a treatment can work, barring other factors and of course if the honey is "right". A bathing cap is recommended, over plastic wrap like saran wrap, to help with drips.

Sorry to hear about the cinnamon. It can irritate even non sensitive skin. I am glad that your skin recovered so quickly. It is best mixed into a recipe after the honey, from reports. You can also try ground cardamom and about a half to a full tablespoon of evoo (extra virgin olive oil) in your mix.

Some Honey thread history and information, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=975506&postcount=1255

Ingredients that contain vitamin C, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

From the first post of this thread, explanations, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

ETA: I almost forgot this. You did a henna cassia and treatment 1.5 weeks ago. Both henna and cassia contain coatings that wash out gradually, henna a resin and cassia, mucilage. Both plants have been reported to leave hair dry and coated at first until the hair is washed several times. That also may be why your honey lightening treatment was not successful. I cannot comment about the honey you used. I suggest trying another treatment in a few weeks, when there are less henna and cassia treatment coatings on your hair and no aloe gel or conditioner.

[Marjolein]

Ktani, thanks for the elaborate reply! It gave me quite a few things to consider.

I don't think there's any resin left on my hair, because I wash it (just about) daily (I sport a lot), so my hair's been washed about ten times after the henna/cassia application.

Next time I'll skip the Aloe Vera and the conditioner and see what happens.

I think I'll keep my mix the same, to keep as many continuing variables as possible (can you tell I'm a trained scientific researcher ? ;))

And that swimming cap is also a great idea. Because boy did it drip!

I'll keep you posted!

[Marjolein]

keep as many continuing variables as possible (can you tell I'm a trained scientific researcher ? ;))

Eeeh well, probably you can't tell because I meant keeping variables stable, not continuous. Oops! :o

[ktani]

Ktani, thanks for the elaborate reply! It gave me quite a few things to consider.

I don't think there's any resin left on my hair, because I wash it (just about) daily (I sport a lot), so my hair's been washed about ten times after the henna/cassia application.

Next time I'll skip the Aloe Vera and the conditioner and see what happens.

I think I'll keep my mix the same, to keep as many continuing variables as possible (can you tell I'm a trained scientific researcher ? ;))

And that swimming cap is also a great idea. Because boy did it drip!

I'll keep you posted!

You are most welcome! I was going to add that it depends on how often you wash you hair re the henna and cassia but I was in a rush earlier. Ten times would be more than enough to wash out the resin, I think.

It depends on the honey but people have reported using less water and have still had great results. The pH of the honey when diluted is the key there. A pH of 6 is best.

I look forward to your updates!

[Marjolein]

Hmm, now I'd like to check the PH level of my mix. Guess I'll need PH strips for that, but where does one buy these things? Don't wine makers use them? Anybody in the Benelux or Germany have an idea where to buy those strips?

[ktani]

Hmm, now I'd like to check the PH level of my mix. Guess I'll need PH strips for that, but where does one buy these things? Don't wine makers use them? Anybody in the Benelux or Germany have an idea where to buy those strips?

You can order them online too and you want a range from about 4.5 to 7.5, like these, http://store.yourchiropractorsblend.com/ph-test-strips.html.

[Marjolein]

Great, that's helpful! I was already checking out some full range (1-14) strips on Ebay, but this range is likely much more precise.

[ktani]

Great, that's helpful! I was already checking out some full range (1-14) strips on Ebay, but this range is likely much more precise.

Most honeys range from pH 3.2 to 4.5. Distilled water at pH 7 and the new dilution compensate for the more acidic honeys. A honey with a pH of 6 would need less water. The honey still needs to be a good peroxide producer though. Some honeys produce very little.

[minnie may]

as I'm in germany: I'd ask at a pharmacy or apothecary

[Marjolein]

Thanks minni may! I'll try that. Haven't had any luck ordering it online yet. Either the shipping costs are ridiculous, or the strips are for the wrong PH range.

This weekend I'll try it again, minus the aloe vera.

[minnie may]

Thanks minni may! I'll try that. Haven't had any luck ordering it online yet. Either the shipping costs are ridiculous, or the strips are for the wrong PH range.

This weekend I'll try it again, minus the aloe vera.

no prob and good luck!

[ljkforu]

I buy mine in an aquarium store they are necessary to the health of a fish's water.

[chrissy2u]

Hmm, now I'd like to check the PH level of my mix. Guess I'll need PH strips for that, but where does one buy these things? Don't wine makers use them? Anybody in the Benelux or Germany have an idea where to buy those strips?
pet shop/ tier gesch&#228;f wo der fische sind.