Honey thread - from TBB and bits from old LHC

[ktani]

Olive oil and EVOO (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=589614&postcount=6)

[Longhairpixie]

No worries. I hope things go well.

How long was the power out? I hope that it was not too bad.

Just a few hours but by the time it came back on I was asleep

[ktani]

Just a few hours but by the time it came back on I was asleep

Well that is good. At least you did not have any food spoil.

[ktani]

Outside of Finland, to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe, (Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553, recipe details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538, method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540), I suggest these options.

1. The best honey one can find for honey lightening. (Suggestions; Jarrah (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266) honey, Ambrosia Honey Co. honey, Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey available at Fred Meyer and Kroger stores). If a particular brand is unavailable, look for a dark coloured honey blend where you are, create your own blend, refer to this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)list, or try a honeydew honey (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575). Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. The essential oil used was pure essential oil of cardamom, not an extract which is diluted and usually contains alcohol.

3. A pure evoo (it will have a higher peroxide value than a blend of evoo and refined olive oil (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533046&postcount=3566))

4. Distilled water

5. powdered cinnamon

[ktani]

Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Also see Honey blends (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575).

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382).

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

[ktani]

The colours of honey (http://www.mieliditalia.it/colori/inglese/home.htm)

Note: not all darker honeys have higher peroxide values, e.g. chestnut honey and not all honeys are represented here.
Honey, regardless of its colour, has not been reported to add colour to hair when used in a honey lightening recipe.

[Dorothea]

Can the peroxide created by honey be damaging?

[ktani]

Can the peroxide created by honey be damaging?

Honey lightening peroxide has not been reported to be damaging to date in 5 (including this one) Honey threads, no matter how often a treatment is done or how long a treatment is left on the hair.

See the information in this post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495), starting August 2008, for details on honey lightening recipe ingredients and flavonoids.

[ktani]

Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258)

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

[Longhairpixie]

How often can I honey my hair?

[ktani]

How often can I honey my hair?

As often as you like, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=287574&postcount=2323.

[ktani]

Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin are present in the hair. What determines the hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

[Longhairpixie]

I'm sitting here with dripping hair. Reading all of the old honey tread. It's been an hour and I think I'm going to let it sit just a little longer. I'll take some pictures when it's dry tomorrow. :}

[ktani]

I'm sitting here with dripping hair. Reading all of the old honey tread. It's been an hour and I think I'm going to let it sit just a little longer. I'll take some pictures when it's dry tomorrow. :}

I look forward to reading your report. Please include recipe details, method and I love that you are going to post pictures. Thank you in advance!

[papillion]

I've had a go with the honey mixture, and as far as I can tell there doesn't appear to be any difference in the colour of my hair, except maybe the brassiness has toned down a little. I do have before and after photos, which I'll post as soon as I can find the cable for my camera...

The only real difference to my hair is that the ends tangled quite badly when I washed the mixture out. Maybe it's residue from the honey that I haven't washed out quite enough?

[ktani]

I've had a go with the honey mixture, and as far as I can tell there doesn't appear to be any difference in the colour of my hair, except maybe the brassiness has toned down a little. I do have before and after photos, which I'll post as soon as I can find the cable for my camera...

The only real difference to my hair is that the ends tangled quite badly when I washed the mixture out. Maybe it's residue from the honey that I haven't washed out quite enough?

Welcome to LHC & Honey!

Thank you for your report. I look forward to seeing the pictures.

Some honeys produce less peroxide than others. Please give exact details as too your recipe (the honey and water used, etc.) and method.

Yes, the tangling does sound like honey residue. Try extra rinsing but shampoo should remove it without too much difficulty.

[Longhairpixie]

Before
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/PixieElena/IMG_0449.jpg

After
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/PixieElena/IMG_0474.jpg

I really can't tell what the difference is if any but my hair is still kind of wet from all humidity in the air right now. I know it looks lighter in the pictures but IRL it does not look it. I feel like it dried it out so I am going to do a SMT type treatment. With 1/3 cup 3MM and 1/8 EVOO and 1 tablespoon honey. It's in my hair now we will see how it works.

I used
6 tablespoons honey
2 1/4 cups H2O (room temp)
1 1/2 tablespoons cinnamon
1 tablespoon EVOO
and let it set out for an hour then in our hair for an hour and a half then she s/c her hair and I CO.

I put it on my friend head as well but she didn't want her picture taken.

I don't know I'll take another after picture when it stops raining.

[ktani]

Before
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/PixieElena/IMG_0449.jpg

After
http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu175/PixieElena/IMG_0474.jpg

I really can't tell what the difference is if any but my hair is still kind of wet from all humidity in the air right now. I know it looks lighter in the pictures but IRL it does not look it. I feel like it dried it out so I am going to do a SMT type treatment. With 1/3 cup 3MM and 1/8 EVOO and 1 tablespoon honey. It's in my hair now we will see how it works.

I used
6 tablespoons honey
2 1/4 cups H2O (room temp)
1 1/2 tablespoons cinnamon
1 tablespoon EVOO
and let it set for an hour then out in out hair for an hour and a half then she s/c her hair and I CO.

I put it on my friend head as well but she didn't want her picture taken.

I don't know I'll take another after picture when it stops raining.

Thank you for the pictures and update. Your hair looks shiny. The dryness may be honey residue. Shampoo should remove that without problems.

1. I am not sure that I understand the part I put in bold. Was the hair thoroughly wet and kept wet and covered for the time the treatment was on the hair?

2. Is there any feedback from those around you IRL (in real life) on a difference in colour?

[Longhairpixie]

sorry about the bold part I guess I forgot to reread what I wrote.
:oops:
We left in our hair for an hour and a half. Yes our hair was wet the whole time, before and during. We wrapped in is clingwrap. Then after the time was up she S/C and I CO

My DH-to-be thinks that is lighter but I did a SMT and my hair is still damp today.

[papillion]

Welcome to LHC & Honey!

Thank you for your report. I look forward to seeing the pictures.

Some honeys produce less peroxide than others. Please give exact details as too your recipe (the honey and water used, etc.) and method.

Yes, the tangling does sound like honey residue. Try extra rinsing but shampoo should remove it without too much difficulty.

I'm in the UK, so I used Gale's honey as it was on the successful honeys list. 1tablespoon of honey to 12 tablespoons of tap water, left for an hour to activate. Then I wet my hair, and put the mixture on, put it under a shower cap, then under a towel, and left it for just over an hour.

I think perhaps the towel might have created too much heat and/or the tap water here isn't right to use in the mixture.

I can't do anything about the water at the moment, but I'll have to have a think about another way to stop the drips and try again. I'll have to take more care to rinse everything out properly next time too.

[papillion]

That should read "6" tablespoons of water, not "12". :doh:

I can't edit my posts yet, or I'd go back and change it.

[ktani]

That should read "6" tablespoons of water, not "12". :doh:

I can't edit my posts yet, or I'd go back and change it.

No worries about the editing, all is fine. No worries about the bold part either, lol. I just wasn't sure about what I was reading.

Great news that your DH thinks your hair is lighter. Real life feedback counts, IMO.

I look forward to updated pictures. Try for the same lighting if you can.

[Heidi_234]

I mixed the honey for another root lightening. I'm planning to wet the roots with the mix, let it sit, then add periodically more periodically as it dries (I've made enough for my entire length to soak twice, alot of honey lightening mix hehe). In few hours I'll be heading to bed, and I intend to wrap my hair with saran wrap and leave it to the night instead of washing out after an hour. I read someone who got 3 shades lighten accidentally by doing overnight SMT and that inspired me to try. No harm in trying. I'll wash my hair tomorrow morning and see if there's a difference.

[ktani]

I mixed the honey for another root lightening. I'm planning to wet the roots with the mix, let it sit, then add periodically more periodically as it dries (I've made enough for my entire length to soak twice, alot of honey lightening mix hehe). In few hours I'll be heading to bed, and I intend to wrap my hair with saran wrap and leave it to the night instead of washing out after an hour. I read someone who got 3 shades lighten accidentally by doing overnight SMT and that inspired me to try. No harm in trying. I'll wash my hair tomorrow morning and see if there's a difference.

This may help as well on doing your roots only with honey lightening recipes. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=296249&postcount=2371)

[Heidi_234]

This may help as well on doing your roots only with honey lightening recipes. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=296249&postcount=2371)
Thanks, I've already done the roots once, and of course read all you've written on that. I find that a brush does not make the hair wet enough with the treatment. And of course - if it dries, it stops working. I'm using a syringe (without the needle of course), and 'shoot' plenty of the mix straight to my roots, making them very wet with the treatment. After a while I redo it, to keep it in the very wet state.

[ktani]

Thanks, I've already done the roots once, and of course read all you've written on that. I find that a brush does not make the hair wet enough with the treatment. And of course - if it dries, it stops working. I'm using a syringe (without the needle of course), and 'shoot' plenty of the mix straight to my roots, making them very wet with the treatment. After a while I redo it, to keep it in the very wet state.

Sounds good. That post is a guide. You need to use a method that you are comfortable with and that works best for you.

[Heidi_234]

Sounds good. That post is a guide. You need to use a method that you are comfortable with and that works best for you.
Well, I'm just sharing my personal experience. I'm not sure if anybody tried the brush thing before, but it doesn't seem to go hand to hand with the honey mix - as it is too runny to be applied with a brush. I don't know if you wrote it as theoretical possible way to employ honey lightening for roots, or you based it on someone experience, but I thought that sharing mine would only benefit everybody.
I washed my hair this morning - going to take a while to dry, but I'll let you know if I manage to see anything. :)

[ktani]

Well, I'm just sharing my personal experience. I'm not sure if anybody tried the brush thing before, but it doesn't seem to go hand to hand with the honey mix - as it is too runny to be applied with a brush. I don't know if you wrote it as theoretical possible way to employ honey lightening for roots, or you based it on someone experience, but I thought that sharing mine would only benefit everybody.
I washed my hair this morning - going to take a while to dry, but I'll let you know if I manage to see anything. :)

Your report is definitely helpful regardless of the outcome and is also very much appreciated.

I look forward to reading your results.

The brush technique was tried and reported to work quite well by several people. I included it as a possible option based on its reported success. Different kinds of brushes were reported to work well for different people, that is why several kinds of brushes are mentioned in the post.

All of the recommendations are based on research and reports and when it is just my theory based on research I have read, I indicate that.

[ktani]

Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

[Heidi_234]

Your report is definitely helpful regardless of the outcome and is also very much appreciated.

I look forward to reading your results.

The brush technique was tried and reported to work quite well by several people. I included it as a possible option based on its reported success. Different kinds of brushes were reported to work well for different people, that is why several kinds of brushes are mentioned in the post.

All of the recommendations are based on research and reports and when it is just my theory based on research I have read, I indicate that.
Well, I've done it. The overnight thing didn't work out as well as I thought it would. I shot honey mix with a syringe straight to the roots, and had them soaked with it. Then I applied SMT to the length, and bunned it high. I used saran wrap to wrap my head, and some more saran wrap to wrap the bun, I secured both parts with a scrunchy tied around the bun, and that made the saran wrap around my head slide towards to the bun, exposing some areas all around. But it wasn't a total fiasco. Just something to keep in mind and know it doesn't work as well as it does in theory. :)
Was the lightening successful? I don't know, I'll never know probably. I hope that in few months I'll see a difference in color of my henna, that's what the whole experiment is all about. Other than that, I do think it blurred the root line more, and 'deepened' my roots (by lightening hennaed section possibly). It looks like I had really good growth this month, but I'll have to do measurements to make sure it's not a growth but lightening (accomplished by the honey or by the chlorine, or by both).
As to condition of my hair - It feel nice. I COed the honey out this time, and got no stiffness this time on day 1. My roots feel soft and clean. Well, that's about it I suppose. Will report again next month (unless I'll start to slack and drop the whole thing off :p).

[ktani]

Well, I've done it. The overnight thing didn't work out as well as I thought it would. I shot honey mix with a syringe straight to the roots, and had them soaked with it. Then I applied SMT to the length, and bunned it high. I used saran wrap to wrap my head, and some more saran wrap to wrap the bun, I secured both parts with a scrunchy tied around the bun, and that made the saran wrap around my head slide towards to the bun, exposing some areas all around. But it wasn't a total fiasco. Just something to keep in mind and know it doesn't work as well as it does in theory. :)
Was the lightening successful? I don't know, I'll never know probably. I hope that in few months I'll see a difference in color of my henna, that's what the whole experiment is all about. Other than that, I do think it blurred the root line more, and 'deepened' my roots (by lightening hennaed section possibly). It looks like I had really good growth this month, but I'll have to do measurements to make sure it's not a growth but lightening (accomplished by the honey or by the chlorine, or by both).
As to condition of my hair - It feel nice. I COed the honey out this time, and got no stiffness this time on day 1. My roots feel soft and clean. Well, that's about it I suppose. Will report again next month (unless I'll start to slack and drop the whole thing off :p).

I do not think overnight is necessary for honey lightening but I am glad that it does not appear to be a bad result for you and that the condition of your hair is good. 1 hour, the recommended time for the new honey lighening dilution works well for many. Several hours is preferred by some. Sleeping in any treatment is a pain. I have done it with conditioners and then with catnip. No thanks, lol.

[Heidi_234]

I do not think overnight is necessary for honey lightening but I am glad that it does not appear to be a bad result for you and that the condition of your hair is good. 1 hour, the recommended time for the new honey lighening dilution works well for many. Several hours is preferred by some. Sleeping in any treatment is a pain. I have done it with conditioners and then with catnip. No thanks, lol.
No it was fine to sleep with, it's just that I intended the saran wrap completely cover my hair, but the design wasn't as good as the idea. :o Anyway, I know overnight is not necessary, but I wanted to try it anyway.

[ktani]

No it was fine to sleep with, it's just that I intended the saran wrap completely cover my hair, but the design wasn't as good as the idea. :o Anyway, I know overnight is not necessary, but I wanted to try it anyway.

There is no harm in doing so. I just never slept particularly well with a treatment on my head.

[frangipani]

Could you use honey to lighten your eyebrows? Does it cause brassiness?

[ktani]

Could you use honey to lighten your eyebrows? Does it cause brassiness?

That would be tricky to do but it is possible, IMO. You would need to keep the areas covered. You could tape a bit of plastic over them. It would be far easier though to buy the facial bleach you can get at a beauty supply store or drugstores. It only takes a few moments, and would not need covering.

As to brassiness, that depends on the starting colour but honey lightening has not been reported to cause brassiness problems as such. It has been reported to help deal with brassiness. If you are concerned about that try a, strand test.

[ktani]

Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495) and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

[papillion]

I look forward to updated pictures. Try for the same lighting if you can.

I've got the photos onto the computer, but they're no use in seeing any difference in the colour of my hair: for some reason my hair looks almost red in them, which it definitely isn't in real life. :ponder: Rather odd, but I'm assuming that the flash reflected off something, or was too close.

I'm going to try again, maybe this weekend, and this time I'll make sure that I've got decent photos.

[ktani]

I've got the photos onto the computer, but they're no use in seeing any difference in the colour of my hair: for some reason my hair looks almost red in them, which it definitely isn't in real life. :ponder: Rather odd, but I'm assuming that the flash reflected off something, or was too close.

I'm going to try again, maybe this weekend, and this time I'll make sure that I've got decent photos.

No worries, take your time.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I didn't quite make it through the whole thread, but...where can one find ROMAN chamomile? I can't find it at all, except in oil form. They don't even sell it in plant form at my local garden center.

[ktani]

I didn't quite make it through the whole thread, but...where can one find ROMAN chamomile? I can't find it at all, except in oil form. They don't even sell it in plant form at my local garden center.

Do you want it for honey lightening? It is no longer recommended because it can add gold tones and it has limited to no lightening abilities although 1 LHC member reported getting lightening from it years ago, in a now archived thread. Also, the acidic pH of the tea would not be as good for honey lightening, as distilled water or some tap waters with low mineral contents. The optimal pH of honey to produce peroxide is 6 and most honeys are more acidic than that. That is why diluting honey (1 tablespoon to 6 tablespoons distilled water) helps. It raises the pH.

Roman chamomile can mostly be found in specialty tea shops, online or in health food stores.

For honey lightening with the newest recipes, see this post, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1.

[ktani]

I added some "thoughts in conclusion" to the article on I wrote on swimming and hair. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=115)

[frangipani]

Thanks ktani, i guess i'll just try the facial bleach. I love this thread though, very informative! I found this article http://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694197[/URL ([URL]http://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694197)] in my web browsings today, apparently the peroxide in honey is super effective against germs, makes sense...just another reason to love it <3. it's really pretty amazing stuff !

[frangipani]

http://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694197 (http://[URL]http://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694197) sorry

[ktani]

http://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694197 (http://[URL]http://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694197) sorry

I could not get either link to open for me but I appreciate your posting them anyway. Yes, the antibacterial, healing benefits of honey are being looked at ongoing and are being applied to help clear infections resistant to other methods.

Honey used to help heal wounds (it is diluted by the natural fluid in wounds and slowly releases peroxide), has consistantly been reported to not damage surrounding tissue or have adverse effects.

[frangipani]

Sorry, i am a newbie, i had a bit of trouble posting the link properlyhttp://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694197

3rd time's a charm?

[ktani]

Sorry, i am a newbie, i had a bit of trouble posting the link properlyhttp://health.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=694197

3rd time's a charm?

Yes you are and please forgive me for not noticing that and welcoming you properly.

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

I did get the link to open for me this time, thank you. It is always interesting to me to read such material and I am glad that you shared this particular article.

I have had problems posting links many times and sometimes still do, lol.

Professor Molan is considered to be the honey expert and I have quoted from his articles and even from his personal experiences with honey. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=407618&postcount=3121)

[ademtce]

i love this, im definitely going to give this a try.
i have pretty dark hair (almost black, but its brown) im trying get quite a noticeable lift, im aware that it will take multiple applications. is there any specific method/mix i should use or will this ( http://bit.ly/SLOI4 ) work fine?

[ktani]

i love this, im definitely going to give this a try.
i have pretty dark hair (almost black, but its brown) im trying get quite a noticeable lift, im aware that it will take multiple applications. is there any specific method/mix i should use or will this ( http://bit.ly/SLOI4 ) work fine?

I suggest using the boosters to go with the honey and distilled water. You can use ground cinnamon or cardamom and about a tablespoon of either coconut oil or evoo.

[ademtce]

i just realized i posted the wrong link. haha this one i was referring to http://bit.ly/M5KlI

[frangipani]

i have chemically lightened hair but i thought the honey lightening sounded like a good way to brighten my hair between touch ups, and maybe stretch them out a bit more. am planning to try this on Monday , so i will let the thread know how i go with it. if i can get some pics up , i will certainly do so :)

[ademtce]

i just finished this, i got a little lighter. ill post some pictures tomorrow so i can have the same sun lighting again.

i plan on doing this a few more times atleast until i get one level lighter. (if possible)
i had another though would being out in the sun during this make any difference (good or bad?)

[ktani]

i have chemically lightened hair but i thought the honey lightening sounded like a good way to brighten my hair between touch ups, and maybe stretch them out a bit more. am planning to try this on Monday , so i will let the thread know how i go with it. if i can get some pics up , i will certainly do so :)

Please do. I look forward to reading how it goes.

[ktani]

i just finished this, i got a little lighter. ill post some pictures tomorrow so i can have the same sun lighting again.

i plan on doing this a few more times atleast until i get one level lighter. (if possible)
i had another though would being out in the sun during this make any difference (good or bad?)

Great news about the lightening. No, I do not recommend sitting in the sun for the duration of the treatment. The heat and UV can deplete the peroxide of the recipe, besides not being good if your skin is unprotected, for any length of time.

[ademtce]

here are my results.

(with no flash out in the sun)

Before
http://i39.tinypic.com/i5r8d4.jpg

After
http://i44.tinypic.com/2qny2iq.jpg
(the lighting in this is a bit white washed)

i did get red undertones but i suspect its from my previous use of Manic Panic PillarBox Red. i thought it had all faded/washed out. i guess its still there under or the brass tones of whatever is left of my natural hair pigmentation is showing up.

[ktani]

here are my results.

(with no flash out in the sun)

Before
http://i39.tinypic.com/i5r8d4.jpg

After
http://i44.tinypic.com/2qny2iq.jpg
(the lighting in this is a bit white washed)

i did get red undertones but i suspect its from my previous use of Manic Panic PillarBox Red. i thought it had all faded/washed out. i guess its still there under or the brass tones of whatever is left of my natural hair pigmentation is showing up.

Thank you for the pictures and the update. The red does not appear to be as vibrant. How much of that is the lighting, I do not know but you do. So I am glad that you can see some colour difference.

[ademtce]

actually in the person the red became even more vibrant. which is odd because my hair was dyed (semi-permanent) a black/brown multiple times. before that i had used some manic panic to get it red so i guess some of that was lingering in my hair.

[ktani]

actually in the person the red became even more vibrant. which is odd because my hair was dyed (semi-permanent) a black/brown multiple times. before that i had used some manic panic to get it red so i guess some of that was lingering in my hair.

There appears to be a lot of red showing in your before picture, deep vibrant red.

[ademtce]

the red could be a result of having some many processed done to be my hair about a year ago.
i was constantly going from red to brown to black to brown to red. i did that for a few years and finally decided it needed to stop. i think it may have stripped my hair & the red could be from having all the color removed like bleaching black hair & all thats left is the brassy-ness of the original color.

[ktani]

the red could be a result of having some many processed done to be my hair about a year ago.
i was constantly going from red to brown to black to brown to red. i did that for a few years and finally decided it needed to stop. i think it may have stripped my hair & the red could be from having all the color removed like bleaching black hair & all thats left is the brassy-ness of the original color.

Sounds possible.

[ktani]

Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495) and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

[Dr. GOD]

Is it bad to leave the honey/water solution for more than an hour? Could I mix it up today and leave it to produce peroxide overnight?

[ktani]

Is it bad to leave the honey/water solution for more than an hour? Could I mix it up today and leave it to produce peroxide overnight?

No, it is not bad to do so. The peroxide produced by different honeys peak and deline at different rates. You can mix a recipe and refridgerate it and use it the next day but I think it is better to mix it fresh and use it. You can let a recipe sit out for an hour prior to using it and you can leave it on the hair longer than 1 hour. 1 hour on the hair though, has been reported to be sufficient, per treatment.

[ktani]

Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin are present in the hair. What determines the hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

[ktani]

Honey blends

Research I read, stated that dark coloured blends had higher peroxide values than light coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value, it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. The idea is that the different honey peroxide levels get added together, to produce one stronger mix peroxide value. It depends on the individual honeys but it increases the odds of a successful recipe result, if one cannot find a local honey that works well for honey lightening, on its own.

There is also this. So a honeydew honey may very well be an excellent honey lightening choice.
2007
“…. darker and less sweet honeys …. indicative of the honey scavenging capacity, which is greater in dark honeys, mainly honeydews. ” (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120089364/abstract)

“Glucose Oxidase (GOX) is of interest in relation to antibacterial properties in honey. It catalyses glucose to form gluconic acid and Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) - the main agent responsible for antibacterial activity in most honeys. GOX activity (usually measured by its production of H2O2) is highly variable in differing honeys. …. appears that GOX activity is related to specific honey sources e.g. beech honeydew usually has a high level of activity." (http://www.airborne.co.nz/Enzymes.html#GOX)

"Honeydew honey from the conifer forests of the mountainous regions of central Europe and honey from manuka .... in New Zealand have been found to have high antibacterial activity." (http://www.drugs.com/npp/honey.html)

This may mean (the higher pH), that a lower dilution with distilled water can be used and that would mean less drips with a honey lightening recipe.
"Honeydew honeys were generally characterised by higher pH… acidity and darker colour than nectar honeys." (http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Honeydew-honeys-top-antioxidant-ratings)

This honeydew honey (http://www.amazon.com/Wedderspoon-Organic-Autumn-Honeydew-17-6-Ounce/dp/B001EO6F64) does not contain Vitamin C, or iron, so it should be great for honey lightening. Nutrition facts (http://www.amazon.com/Wedderspoon-Organic-Autumn-Honeydew-17-6-Ounce/dp/B001EO6F64#nutrition-facts).

The exact same honey can be purchased from here (http://www.vitacost.com/Wedderspoon-Organic-Forest-Honeydew-Honey-17-6-oz?csrc=GPF-094922556707) for a lot less money.

The Wedderspoon brand, is Canadian (http://www.wedderspoon.ca/shop/manuka-organic-honey/organic-honeydew) and they sell Manuka honey too.

New Zealand Beech Forest honeydew honey can be purchased from here (http://fast-pak-trading-inc.amazonwebstore.com/New-Zealand-Beech-Forest-Honeydew-Honey/M/B000NAZQLA.htm?traffic_src=froogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=froogle).

[ktani]

A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html). 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. Another way to use the new dilution is to just use tablespoons, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc. It works out to be the same as calculating by weight.

According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin).
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369) is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173).

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil. Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons. Information on ground cinnamon can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314). Information on ground cardamom can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373). Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon. None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883) (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Store (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452) your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90% water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out. If there is honey residue, shampoo is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of some types of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035).

12. This (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095) is a Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.

[ktani]

Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Also see Honey blends (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575).

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382).

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

[ktani]

When to Pretreat and the booster oils

Honey lightening

No pretreatment of any kind is necessary before honey lightening.

Of the 2 booster oils (evoo and coconut oil), evoo has a higher peroxide level, (as long as it is pure evoo and not a mix of evoo and olive oil).

Evoo will mix into a recipe better than coconut oil and either oil should only be used at room temperature. Body heat will melt the coconut oil used in a mix, when the treatment is applied to the hair.

A CO (coneless conditioner, preferrably) has been reported to remove a too oily honey lightening treatment, more easily than shampoo.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Conventional lightening chemicals

Yes, for conventional hair colouring or lightening, or adding conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe, a pretreatment with either coconut oil or coconut and argan oils (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495)is recommended, to help prevent damage to hair.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

[ktani]

A honey lightening report from another thread. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=615989&postcount=9)

My response. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=616031&postcount=11)

[ktani]

Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, as well as in the Honey threads, past and current (this one), to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
<A href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm" target=_blank>http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

[ktani]

The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1)

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel contains about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

[ktani]

Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with strong oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and can deplete or negatively interact, with the peroxide levels of honey lightening recipes, IMO.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be enough protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pretreatment (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=526598&postcount=3521) before conventional peroxide (which is much stronger than honey lightening peroxide) is used, and the peroxide applied over them (coconut or coconut and argan oils are the best choices for that) or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce natural peroxide.

Here is a thread about helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach and hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut and oils (which contain protective chelators (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pretreatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

[ktani]

Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

[ktani]

Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin are present in the hair. What determines the hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

BranwenWolf - honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506

ShaSha, after a 2nd treatment, with just honey and tap water (the first was honey, tap water and cassia but there are no pictures)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=527243&postcount=3523

recipe and method details for the 2nd treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528545&postcount=3542

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

[ktani]

Honey lightening on dark, dyed hair


Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

gallows gallery - dyed black hair over henna on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution and Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

ljkforu - on previously black dyed ends, hennaed hair, with tap water, ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455932&postcount=3335

ljkforu - more information on her honey lightening recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=433208&postcount=3270

ljkforu - feedback from those around her, in real life
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=437566&postcount=3282

[rogue_psyche]

I was wondering if using honey would allow veggie dyes like manic panic, sfx, and punky colours to be used. My hair that isn't naturally porous enough to take the dye in any lasting manner. Normally veggie dye that I apply to virgin hair looks dyed for a few washes and then is barely visible.

Is it a longshot because making hair porous is damage, and honey doesn't show damage to hair? Or is my lightish/mousyish base just too dark?

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I did a search for relevant keywords and haven't really seen much mention of any veggie dyes on this thread.

[ktani]

I was wondering if using honey would allow veggie dyes like manic panic, sfx, and punky colours to be used. My hair that isn't naturally porous enough to take the dye in any lasting manner. Normally veggie dye that I apply to virgin hair looks dyed for a few washes and then is barely visible.

Is it a longshot because making hair porous is damage, and honey doesn't show damage to hair? Or is my lightish/mousyish base just too dark?

I haven't read through the entire thread, but I did a search for relevant keywords and haven't really seen much mention of any veggie dyes on this thread.

Veggie dyes have not been mentioned.

Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair from its peroxide content. Problems have been reported because of honey residue, which can be easily resolved based on reports, using shampoo in most cases, with no lasting negative effects.

[rogue_psyche]

Veggie dyes have not been mentioned.

Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair from its peroxide content. Problems have been reported because of honey residue, which can be easily resolved based on reports, using shampoo in most cases, with no lasting negative effects.

Thanks for the quick reply, ktani! I'll file veggie dyes and honey under my "experiment with one day" mental lists. Right now I'm having so much fun with henna, but I plan on using honey because I have noticeable roots (and damage :mad:) from conventional bleach.

Also, you've got a very informative, well organized thread here. I gave it a :Star::Star::Star::Star::Star: rating!

[ktani]

Thanks for the quick reply, ktani! I'll file veggie dyes and honey under my "experiment with one day" mental lists. Right now I'm having so much fun with henna, but I plan on using honey because I have noticeable roots (and damage :mad:) from conventional bleach.

Also, you've got a very informative, well organized thread here. I gave it a :Star::Star::Star::Star::Star: rating!

Thank you so much! If I can be of assistance, please let me know by just posting or pming me.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

Well, I finally tried it.

I've been using Henna for...I think about three years, and it's been a good half a year since I last used it. Normally my hair is a dark brown with gold and red highlights. I don't want to stop henna, really; I just want to try and re-do it, so the red is more visible. I unwisely henna'd my whole head each time.

I used 4 tablespoons of honey, 12 oz of distilled water, and one teaspoon of cinnamon. Easiest way ever: I put it into a quart ziploc bag, and squished everything around thoroughly to mix. Then I soaked my hair, and managed to stuff the majority of it into the bag to soak up the honey mixture. (My hair's also almost waist length. It's magic, I tell ya.) After that, I kind of bent over the tub backwards and squeezed the rest out over my head. Wrapped it all up in plastic wrap, slapped on a swim cap, and wrapped my neck in towels to catch drips, and left it on for three hours. (One hour to produce peroxide+two to actually bleach.)

You can be the judge.

Before:
http://www.meijinhada.org/Before.jpg

After:
http://www.meijinhada.org/After.jpg

Same light conditions, camera with flash. (I know, it doesn't look the same, but it was.) In normal conditions, just looking at my hair, it looks lighter; and unless I'm hallucinating, it actually looks like my original colour already. :D And to be honest, it did a wonder for conditioning my hair; it feels all fluffy and soft.

[ktani]

Well, I finally tried it.

I've been using Henna for...I think about three years, and it's been a good half a year since I last used it. Normally my hair is a dark brown with gold and red highlights. I don't want to stop henna, really; I just want to try and re-do it, so the red is more visible. I unwisely henna'd my whole head each time.

I used 4 tablespoons of honey, 12 oz of distilled water, and one teaspoon of cinnamon. Easiest way ever: I put it into a quart ziploc bag, and squished everything around thoroughly to mix. Then I soaked my hair, and managed to stuff the majority of it into the bag to soak up the honey mixture. (My hair's also almost waist length. It's magic, I tell ya.) After that, I kind of bent over the tub backwards and squeezed the rest out over my head. Wrapped it all up in plastic wrap, slapped on a swim cap, and wrapped my neck in towels to catch drips, and left it on for three hours. (One hour to produce peroxide+two to actually bleach.)

You can be the judge.

Before:
http://www.meijinhada.org/Before.jpg

After:
http://www.meijinhada.org/After.jpg

Same light conditions, camera with flash. (I know, it doesn't look the same, but it was.) In normal conditions, just looking at my hair, it looks lighter; and unless I'm hallucinating, it actually looks like my original colour already. :D And to be honest, it did a wonder for conditioning my hair; it feels all fluffy and soft.

Wonderful that you are so pleased with the results and yes, I can see the difference in colour too.

Thank you for such a detailed report and with pictures. ETA: Your dilution is right on!

Please tell me the type and brand of honey you used, so that I can add it to the Successful Honeys List for others and I will add your report to the pictures posts (added to the honey Lightening on Hennaed Hair, Honey Lightening on categorized hair colour, and Honey Lightening with the New Dilution, Pictures posts).

[ktani]

This was first written by me, and posted September 19, 2008. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=274753&postcount=2243

Going back over some research in the original Honey thread and discussing it with a friend, certain points of interest were raised.

In a study done on the hydrogen peroxide generated by a range of 8 honeys on dilution, more peroxide was produced at a 30 - 40 &#37; concentration than at other honey to water concentrations (the full study is not currently online).

However, the optimal pH of a honey water solution to produce hydrogen peroxide is 6. In the study, the solutions at various dilutions, were all chemically buffered, and then adjusted with sodium hydroxide to pH 6, as required, before the testing began.

In the Honey threads, when conditioner was used at 2 parts to 1 with honey, lightening was reported but it was very gradual in most cases. All conditioners are acidic, because as well as conditioning hair, they are designed to close the cuticle and keep hair smooth. Mixing conditioner with honey to lighten hair, can be problematic in 3 ways; ingredients that interfere with lightening, water content depending on the conditioner, and pH.

Tap water has various pH levels and a varying mineral content. Minerals can negatively affect hydrogen peroxide levels. Distilled water has a pH of 7 or neutral and no minerals.



The pH of honey can vary between 3.2 and 6.1, depending on the source of information (I think that the 2nd source's information below, is the more typical range. Canadian honeys tested for a science project, http://www.saskatchewanbeekeepers.ca/users/folder.asp@FolderID=5136.htm), averaged out to pH 6. Unless you test a honey, you do not know what pH it is on dilution, and at what dilution, with liquids. Many honeys on the market are blends of honey from all over the world, even single source (type) honeys, like clover.

Originally Posted by Marlowe in another thread
"According to the bottle Burleson's honey is U.S. Grade A Fancy clover, sourced from the U.S.A., Argentina, Canada, Brazil, Vietnam, Mexico, and India."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=275298&postcount=10

1. “average pH of honey is 3.9 …. typical range of 3.4 to 6.1”
http://www.honey.com/foodindustry/resourcedb/pdfs/ph-acidsinhoney.pdf

2. "Honey .... characteristically quite acidic pH .... between 3.2 and 4.5”
http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/honey_intro.shtml#Acidity



I think that the new dilution with distilled water, works so well for so many people, because the pH of the honey water solution is at a level that allows more peroxide to be produced than previous dilutions, with conditioner and tap water, aside from other factors.

I looked into pH buffers. The one in the study was used at a very precise, very low concentration, so was the sodium hydroxide. Different pH buffers have different applications (they react chemically in different ways) so self buffering a honey lightening recipe (by adding a pH buffer) is not recommended, and the same applies to using sodium hydroxide, IMO. I think that buffering and adjusting a honey water solution to pH 6, would be very difficult to do, without the proper measuring and safety equipment, and precautions. Both the buffer and the sodium hydroxide used in the study, were specific for the purpose intended, and honey.

How the information from the study translates to honey lightening is simple, IMO. You can use the new dilution. It has been reported to be a great success so far, or you can test the pH of the honey you buy on dilution, and if it is pH 6, which is possible, try a dilution with less distilled water than the new dilution.

[ktani]

For Swimmers! (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=626952&postcount=939)

The swimming Article (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=115)

[Sokudo Ningyou]

It was a generic store brand, Roundy's. Grade A.

[wackyredtangles]

I did a honey treatment, and I can definitely tell the difference on my roots. Not as much on my hennaed length, but I didn't care about that so much anyways. I'm a natural redhead, but for some reason the roots of my hair have been growing in progressively darker for a year now. Until I started to henna when I had it up it would look brown unless some sort of light was hitting it. I'm no Anne of Green Gables redheads all the way!

Should have thought to take a pic, but I didn't. I used 2 parts honey to one part lemon juice, mixed that with a bit of conditioner. Put my hair up and used an applicator bottle to squirt it into the roots. All was good, even though it was a bit drippy and I was kind of sticky afterwards.

[ktani]

It was a generic store brand, Roundy's. Grade A.

Great, thank you.

[ktani]

The Successful Honeys List - honeys reported to work well in honey lightening recipes.

As you can see there are more brand names than types of honey - that does not matter - the brand is important too - different brands of clover honey for example have been reported to work differently.

Australia
Jarrah honey

Brazil
Bio21 orange blossom honey

Finland
SAM honey
SAM Gourmet Italian forest honey (Italian metsä hunaja)

Italy
black locust honey

North America (Canada and the U.S.)
honey in bear shaped plastic bottle from Walmart

Billy Bee clover honey

Roundy's Grade A honey (Canadian, generic store brand)

Norway
Ekte honning honey

Poland
Raw wildflower honey

UK
Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys)

Sainsburys Basics brand honey

Waitrose Wildflower honey

U.S.
Ambrosia Honey Co. honey

Aunt Sue's Raw Wild Natural honey

Aunt Sue's Raw All Natural honey

Burleson's Grade A Fancy clover honey

Busy Bee clover honey

Hannaford Brand honey, in a bear bottle

Honey Bee clover honey

Hyvee brand honey

Laney brand alfalfa honey

Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey (Fred Meyer and Kroger stores)

Nature's Energy honey (Natures grocery store)

Ralph's brand pure clover honey

Really Raw brand honey (goldenrod, aster and wildflower)

raw, unpasteurized, blackberry honey, clover honey, orange blossom honey, tupelo honey, wildflower honey

Safeway clover honey

Save Mart honey, in a bear bottle

Stater Brothers honey

Sue Bee clover honey

Target's Market Pantry honey (In a little bear bottle)

Trader Joe's 100% desert mesquite honey, clover blossom honey

Wegmans' brand Clover honey

Western Family Clover honey

Whole Foods 365 Organic Wildflower honey

[ktani]

I did a honey treatment, and I can definitely tell the difference on my roots. Not as much on my hennaed length, but I didn't care about that so much anyways. I'm a natural redhead, but for some reason the roots of my hair have been growing in progressively darker for a year now. Until I started to henna when I had it up it would look brown unless some sort of light was hitting it. I'm no Anne of Green Gables redheads all the way!

Should have thought to take a pic, but I didn't. I used 2 parts honey to one part lemon juice, mixed that with a bit of conditioner. Put my hair up and used an applicator bottle to squirt it into the roots. All was good, even though it was a bit drippy and I was kind of sticky afterwards.

Lemon juice works against the peroxide produced by honey (the peroxide oxidizes the Vitamin C and is depleted by doing so). At 2 to 1 though you made up for that, to a degree. Honey lightening can work with conditioner but I no longer recommend it. Many conditioners interfere with honey lightening, conditioner pH is lower than that of distilled water and that results in the lightening, if it does take place, being slower and more gradual, than reported results with the new dilution and recipes.

If you are pleased with the results you have with your recipe, by all means, continue to use it. It is about how you like the results you get.

I was very tired last night and missed your post the "first time round" (when I first read new posts). Sorry about that.

[ktani]

A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html). 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. Another way to use the new dilution is to just use tablespoons, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc. It works out to be the same as calculating by weight.

According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin).
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369) is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173).

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil. Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons. Information on ground cinnamon can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314). Information on ground cardamom can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373). Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon. None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883) (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Store (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452) your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90% water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out. If there is honey residue, shampoo is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of some types of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035).

12. This (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095) is a Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.

[ktani]

With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

[ktani]

Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495) and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

[ktani]

Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258)

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I was wondering at the hydrogen value in agave nectar when I came across several articles pointing out the peroxide in manuka honey from New Zealand.

Here's a link to a seller, and a description of the honey's properties at the bottom: http://www.aviva.ca/shop/product_sections.asp?catid=336

[ktani]

I was wondering at the hydrogen value in agave nectar when I came across several articles pointing out the peroxide in manuka honey from New Zealand.

Here's a link to a seller, and a description of the honey's properties at the bottom: http://www.aviva.ca/shop/product_sections.asp?catid=336

Agave nectar is not a honey but a honey substitute (http://www.living-foods.com/articles/agave.html). I do not think that it has any peroxide value and would not be suitable for honey lightening.

Agave nectar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agave_syrup)

[Honey39]

Hi there,

Apologies for duplication, but I've been trying to find an answer for this for a while, and thought I'd try this thread rather than make a new one!

I love the effect of honey/conditioner on my hair - it's like a miracle for me. However, I colour my hair darker and am desperate not to lose the darker colour (red/brown), because my hair can get that nasty colourless look. So I have a couple of questions:

If I microwave honey for about 20 seconds, add conditioner, then add that to DRY hair for about an hour and then wash out, will that avoid the lightening factor?

I have heard about using molasses instead - I can't get that in this country. So does anyone know if black treacle is the same thing?

Does molasses/black treacle have the same miraculous effect as honey? I am really nervous about using it because it's so very thick. I tried a black treacle/sugar handwash, and it didn't wash off in that amazingly easy way that honey does.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help at all, I really appreciate it! :)

[ademtce]

i believe if you heat up the honey it stops it from lightening your hair

[ktani]

Hi there,

Apologies for duplication, but I've been trying to find an answer for this for a while, and thought I'd try this thread rather than make a new one!

I love the effect of honey/conditioner on my hair - it's like a miracle for me. However, I colour my hair darker and am desperate not to lose the darker colour (red/brown), because my hair can get that nasty colourless look. So I have a couple of questions:

If I microwave honey for about 20 seconds, add conditioner, then add that to DRY hair for about an hour and then wash out, will that avoid the lightening factor?

I have heard about using molasses instead - I can't get that in this country. So does anyone know if black treacle is the same thing?

Does molasses/black treacle have the same miraculous effect as honey? I am really nervous about using it because it's so very thick. I tried a black treacle/sugar handwash, and it didn't wash off in that amazingly easy way that honey does.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help at all, I really appreciate it! :)

No worries about duplication.

To be sure that you destroy the enzyme that generates peroxide in honey, mirowave the honey separately for 30 seconds to under 1 munute. That should do it. Then let it cool down, add your conditioner and no worries.

Molasses can darken hair a bit, not lighten it. Be sure to follow molasses, if you try it with a vinegar rinse, as molasses can leave a mineral residue.

So can honey but honey residue is best (based on reports), removed with shampoo.

[ljkforu]

Hi there,

Apologies for duplication, but I've been trying to find an answer for this for a while, and thought I'd try this thread rather than make a new one!

I love the effect of honey/conditioner on my hair - it's like a miracle for me. However, I colour my hair darker and am desperate not to lose the darker colour (red/brown), because my hair can get that nasty colourless look. So I have a couple of questions:

If I microwave honey for about 20 seconds, add conditioner, then add that to DRY hair for about an hour and then wash out, will that avoid the lightening factor?

I have heard about using molasses instead - I can't get that in this country. So does anyone know if black treacle is the same thing?

Does molasses/black treacle have the same miraculous effect as honey? I am really nervous about using it because it's so very thick. I tried a black treacle/sugar handwash, and it didn't wash off in that amazingly easy way that honey does.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help at all, I really appreciate it! :)
Black treacle tastes yummy and is very similar to molasses, as golden syrup is to corn syrup.

I don't think either has a peroxide value, but wanted you to know the food comparison for cooking :D

[ktani]

Recent honey lightening recipe and method innovations

Honey lightening to create hi-lights, by BranwenWolf

Honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506


The use of cardamom essential oil, by Fethenwen

After 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil, 1 tablespoon EVOO, 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Suggestions to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe outside of Finland where her tap water and SAM honey is unavailable. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567)

[Sara_1987]

I have dark blonde (light brown? it looks different all the time...In the sun it looks quite blonde (especially the ends) but other times it looks pretty brown. But I used to be very blonde (until I was 15).
I want to get my hair a bit lighter, but not using chemicals because my hair is already naturally dry and I take really good care of it so I wouldn't want my hard work to get healthy hair ruined.
My hair takes color very well and lightens very easily in the sun, but unfortunately there is not much sun here so I decided to try the honey method. I used organic manuka honey.
The first time I thought I saw a difference, but it was not really noticeable. Then I tried it two more times but didn't see any difference.
I didn't use demineralized water though, just tap water. Could that be the problem?
Besides that I followed the instructions. Should I maybe use a different honey? I don't know which other one to choose though. Would honeydew be good?

[ktani]

I have dark blonde (light brown? it looks different all the time...In the sun it looks quite blonde (especially the ends) but other times it looks pretty brown. But I used to be very blonde (until I was 15).
I want to get my hair a bit lighter, but not using chemicals because my hair is already naturally dry and I take really good care of it so I wouldn't want my hard work to get healthy hair ruined.
My hair takes color very well and lightens very easily in the sun, but unfortunately there is not much sun here so I decided to try the honey method. I used organic manuka honey.
The first time I thought I saw a difference, but it was not really noticeable. Then I tried it two more times but didn't see any difference.
I didn't use demineralized water though, just tap water. Could that be the problem?
Besides that I followed the instructions. Should I maybe use a different honey? I don't know which other one to choose though. Would honeydew be good?

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

It could be your water. Try distilled water with your Manuka honey before you try another honey first. Patch test both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom and you can add those (2 tablespoons maximum for the spices to about 24 tablespoons of distilled water, with 4 tablespoons honey or 1 tablespoon of a spice with 2 tablespoons honey and 12 tablespoons or 6 oz U.S., distilled water) plus a tablespoon or less (1/2 tablespoon) pure extra virgin olive oil as well, to your recipe to boost the honey. Some Manuka honeys are better than others. Manuka honey though tends to be expensive. Mine cost $26 CAD (Canadian dollars) for 250 g or 8.75 oz., bought locally, so the price is without shipping charges and it is from New Zealand. I keep it strictly for medicinal purposes for my skin (and it worked beautifully on an infection that had started under a toenail). I do not honey lighten as I am sensitive to honey on my scalp and do not want to lighten my hair colour but I would not use Manuka honey in any case because of the cost and I think other honeys are better for honey lightening. Honeydew honey sounds good to me. Fireweed honey and Jarrah honey have both been reported to yield excellent results but start with the change in water and make sure that your hair is very wet with the treatment, thoughout the time it is on your hair. Sometimes the seemingly little changes make a difference. Please update to let me know how it goes.

[longblond]

Hello, I am new to the Long Hair Community but I have been reading a lot from the forum and lerking about gathering data for months before joining. This honey hair lightening thread has been a great sorce of informaition for me and I just want to say thank you to Ktani for providing so much data and so freely. Once I made up my mind to grow my hair without chemicals, I was faced with the issue of what to do about my dark roots growing from my prevously bleached blonde locks. Being a natural dishwater blonde, I did the most common thing, which is to go to the hair salon where I got my monthly infusion of bleach, peroxide (and many more chemicals). The idea of going "natural" became depressing when those dark roots starting growing and I thought I would have to loose the blonde I love by going darker using henna. I don't look good with red hair ...but it was better than the line that had appeared on my head with the 2 inches of grown out roots...I got more and more depressed. Then I found this thread. I tried the honey lightening recipe and "Wa La!" My roots are blonde again!!! I went back to my hairstylist for a trim and she was amazed that she didn't have to re touch my highlights and wanted to know what I used to lighten my roots! She thought I used peroxide or something. When I told her about the honey...she made me give her the receipe! LOL! I've now done 4 honey treatment- three just for my roots and the last time I applied all over my head which produced an over-all brightening. My whole head is a nice ash blonde now and there is no root line! (ok maybe a faint line that only I would notice) Best of all....it looks MORE natural than before. Ktaini...you should be world famous for your discoveries and information given about this natural honey highlithener! Now I can continue to be a blonde and I will never have to bleach my hair again! I don't have the huge expense of the salon and I save my scalp from all those chemicals! I plan to continue the honey treatment each week or so in order to keep the new growth blonde and it is so healthy that I believe it is helping my hair to grow faster too! I do have some quesitons though, but I think I will save them for a later post, as this one should just be dedicated to the success of Honey lightenng! :cheese:
Millions of Thanks!

[ktani]

Hello, I am new to the Long Hair Community but I have been reading a lot from the forum and lerking about gathering data for months before joining. This honey hair lightening thread has been a great sorce of informaition for me and I just want to say thank you to Ktani for providing so much data and so freely. Once I made up my mind to grow my hair without chemicals, I was faced with the issue of what to do about my dark roots growing from my prevously bleached blonde locks. Being a natural dishwater blonde, I did the most common thing, which is to go to the hair salon where I got my monthly infusion of bleach, peroxide (and many more chemicals). The idea of going "natural" became depressing when those dark roots starting growing and I thought I would have to loose the blonde I love by going darker using henna. I don't look good with red hair ...but it was better than the line that had appeared on my head with the 2 inches of grown out roots...I got more and more depressed. Then I found this thread. I tried the honey lightening recipe and "Wa La!" My roots are blonde again!!! I went back to my hairstylist for a trim and she was amazed that she didn't have to re touch my highlights and wanted to know what I used to lighten my roots! She thought I used peroxide or something. When I told her about the honey...she made me give her the receipe! LOL! I've now done 4 honey treatment- three just for my roots and the last time I applied all over my head which produced an over-all brightening. My whole head is a nice ash blonde now and there is no root line! (ok maybe a faint line that only I would notice) Best of all....it looks MORE natural than before. Ktaini...you should be world famous for your discoveries and information given about this natural honey highlithener! Now I can continue to be a blonde and I will never have to bleach my hair again! I don't have the huge expense of the salon and I save my scalp from all those chemicals! I plan to continue the honey treatment each week or so in order to keep the new growth blonde and it is so healthy that I believe it is helping my hair to grow faster too! I do have some quesitons though, but I think I will save them for a later post, as this one should just be dedicated to the success of Honey lightenng! :cheese:
Millions of Thanks!

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

I am thrilled for you and your honey lightening success. Thank you so much for your kind words.

I also very much appreciate your taking the time to tell me and everyone who reads this thread, just how pleased you are and how well honey lightening has worked for you.

I am happy to answer any questions that you have at any time.

Please share which honey lightening recipe you used, the honey and your method, to help others and if you have any pictures, before and after, please post them.

[Sara_1987]

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

It could be your water. Try distilled water with your Manuka honey before you try another honey first. Patch test both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom and you can add those (2 tablespoons maximum for the spices to about 24 tablespoons of distilled water, with 4 tablespoons honey or 1 tablespoon of a spice with 2 tablespoons honey and 12 tablespoons or 6 oz U.S., distilled water) plus a tablespoon or less (1/2 tablespoon) pure extra virgin olive oil as well, to your recipe to boost the honey. Some Manuka honeys are better than others. Manuka honey though tends to be expensive. Mine cost $26 CAD (Canadian dollars) for 250 g or 8.75 oz., bought locally, so the price is without shipping charges and it is from New Zealand. I keep it strictly for medicinal purposes for my skin (and it worked beautifully on an infection that had started under a toenail). I do not honey lighten as I am sensitive to honey on my scalp and do not want to lighten my hair colour but I would not use Manuka honey in any case because of the cost and I think other honeys are better for honey lightening. Honeydew honey sounds good to me. Fireweed honey and Jarrah honey have both been reported to yield excellent results but start with the change in water and make sure that your hair is very wet with the treatment, thoughout the time it is on your hair. Sometimes the seemingly little changes make a difference. Please update to let me know how it goes.

Thank you for all the info.
I made a mistake though! I was a bit confused, but I actually used honeydew honey, not Manuka (I was in the store contemplating which one to buy, but then went for the cheaper honeydew for my first try).
I will try using distilled water first, but I still need to buy that. I have time for a honey treatment today, but it will still be with tap water though. I will add some olive oil and some cinnamon (if I don't react badly to the patch test) like you suggested and will report back with my results.
And then if that doesn't work I might splurge on the manuka honey to see whether I get better results.

[ktani]

Thank you for all the info.
I made a mistake though! I was a bit confused, but I actually used honeydew honey, not Manuka (I was in the store contemplating which one to buy, but then went for the cheaper honeydew for my first try).
I will try using distilled water first, but I still need to buy that. I have time for a honey treatment today, but it will still be with tap water though. I will add some olive oil and some cinnamon (if I don't react badly to the patch test) like you suggested and will report back with my results.
And then if that doesn't work I might splurge on the manuka honey to see whether I get better results.

See if you can get Jarrah honey or fireweed honey. I would go for those. Manuka honey is special because of the UMF or Unique Manuka Factor, extra antibacterial power, separate from and unrelated to, the peroxide.

[Sara_1987]

oh ok. I'll try looking for those. I did another honey treatment with my honeydew and olive oil (no cinnamon because I patched tested and it made my skin red and itchy). I don't think I see much difference though, but maybe it's a little lighter. I'm not sure. I'll update when I find a more successful honey.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

So here we go again.

To sum up:

I've been using store brand (Roundy's) honey, four tablespoons, and twelve ounces of distilled water, squashed thoroughly to mix. The first and third time, I also added a teaspoon of cinnamon.
First and third times, I left it on almost two hours (not counting the hour spent producing the peroxide originally); the second time, only an hour.

I was too lazy to get a picture after the second time, but here:

We have pre-honey:
http://www.meijinhada.org/Before.jpg

After the first honey:

http://www.meijinhada.org/After.jpg

And after the third:

http://www.meijinhada.org/Third.jpg

Not sure when I'll stop; likely when I have a job, so I can buy the henna I need to colour again. Until then, I'm going to keep lightening and see how close to my old mouse brown I can get it.

[ktani]

So here we go again.

To sum up:

I've been using store brand (Roundy's) honey, four tablespoons, and twelve ounces of distilled water, squashed thoroughly to mix. The first and third time, I also added a teaspoon of cinnamon.
First and third times, I left it on almost two hours (not counting the hour spent producing the peroxide originally); the second time, only an hour.

I was too lazy to get a picture after the second time, but here:

We have pre-honey:
http://www.meijinhada.org/Before.jpg

After the first honey:

http://www.meijinhada.org/After.jpg

And after the third:

http://www.meijinhada.org/Third.jpg

Not sure when I'll stop; likely when I have a job, so I can buy the henna I need to colour again. Until then, I'm going to keep lightening and see how close to my old mouse brown I can get it.

WOW! You are doing really well with honey lightening. For hennaed hair, the extra peroxide of ground cinnamon, seems to work very well and your hair colour looks great as does your hair. I do not know how light you can go with the lightening but you certainly are getting great results! Well done!!! I have added this post to your other results post, in the Pictures Posts.

[ktani]

oh ok. I'll try looking for those. I did another honey treatment with my honeydew and olive oil (no cinnamon because I patched tested and it made my skin red and itchy). I don't think I see much difference though, but maybe it's a little lighter. I'm not sure. I'll update when I find a more successful honey.

I am not sure where you are so availability of certain honeys can be difficult. You want the purest extra virgin olive oil you can find, not olive oil, for honey lightening. The difference is in the peroxide value. Evoo can have twice that of olive oil.

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Sokudo Ningyou, after 1 treatment of honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3851 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3851), - after her 3rd treatment, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=638349&postcount=3877.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

[papillion]

So, attempt number two. I worked out how to deal with the drips, by using two shower caps, one over the other, and then a cloth headband which soaked up anything that did get through.

Again, I can't see any difference in the colour, but my hair is lovely and soft. Before (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=3351&pictureid=42567), and after (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=3351&pictureid=42568) photos.

[ktani]

So, attempt number two. I worked out how to deal with the drips, by using two shower caps, one over the other, and then a cloth headband which soaked up anything that did get through.

Again, I can't see any difference in the colour, but my hair is lovely and soft. Before (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/papillionmagique/lhc/before.jpg), and after (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/papillionmagique/lhc/after.jpg) photos.

I can see a difference in colour on the length. Try putting both pictures side by side for yourself to see the change.

Have you tried adding powdered cinnamon or cardamom (after patch testing) and some evoo (extra virgin olive oil)to your recipe, to boost your honey? That may help. You can spray some of your recipe on your roots before you cover your hair to help concentrate on that area.

The cinnamon and evoo helped firebird get more lightening, (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=48980&postcount=167) when she first had results that did not work as well for her. Substitute distilled water for the conditioner and use the new dilution. Both have been reported to yield better results than using conditioner and the old dilution.

firebird did not cover her hair but misted it for 2 hours to keep it wet. That can be tricky with cinnamon in the mix but it worked for her.

The page with her posts and my replies (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=148&page=17). This was before distilled water and the new dilution. Using conditioner was problematic for a number of people and I understand why now, its pH, ingredients and not enough water but it did work for some very well back then. Now there are more consistent and better results reported and faster results too.

[papillion]

Hmmm. I can't see any difference, except the glare from the flash is perhaps a bit brighter. I'll believe you though! I'm mainly concerned about lightening the roots, as the rest of it is already highlighted - and there's no change whatsoever in the bits that aren't highlighted.

I can't use cinnamon because of scent issues, but evoo might be okay - I'll have to look into it. Firebird's photos look very promising. I'll report back once I've tried again.

[ktani]

Hmmm. I can't see any difference, except the glare from the flash is perhaps a bit brighter. I'll believe you though! I'm mainly concerned about lightening the roots, as the rest of it is already highlighted - and there's no change whatsoever in the bits that aren't highlighted.

I can't use cinnamon because of scent issues, but evoo might be okay - I'll have to look into it. Firebird's photos look very promising. I'll report back once I've tried again.

You can replace cinnamon with cardamom if you want. Lighting can be tricky. You are sure about your results so I will take your word for it. Often for others, who are not sure, asking someone around them in real life if they see a difference, helps.

Other options include trying a different honey. Please continue to update as you go.

[ktani]

Recent honey lightening recipe and method innovations

Honey lightening to create hi-lights, by BranwenWolf

Honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506


The use of cardamom essential oil, by Fethenwen

After 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil, 1 tablespoon EVOO, 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Suggestions to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe outside of Finland where her tap water and SAM honey is unavailable. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567)

[papillion]

You can replace cinnamon with cardamom if you want. Lighting can be tricky. You are sure about your results so I will take your word for it. Often for others, who are not sure, asking someone around them in real life if they see a difference, helps.

Other options include trying a different honey. Please continue to update as you go.

I'm not as sure as I was. Looking at my roots before the highlights start, it seems as though the difference in colour between the natural and the highlighted colour isn't quite as obvious as it was before. Could be wishful thinking, but I'll take photos of the area next time to see if there is a change or not.

[ktani]

I'm not as sure as I was. Looking at my roots before the highlights start, it seems as though the difference in colour between the natural and the highlighted colour isn't quite as obvious as it was before. Could be wishful thinking, but I'll take photos of the area next time to see if there is a change or not.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell. People have reported being sure, then not sure, or not sure and then sure, when they see their own pictures, depending on that tricky lighting. That has happened primarily, when the effects have been subtle. When they are more than subtle, everyone is sure, lol.

I was serious. If there is anyone you can ask in real life, that can make a huge difference, when the effects are not strong, to keep one convinced, that it is worth the effort to continue honey lightening.

[ktani]

Honey lightening on dark, dyed hair


Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

gallows gallery - dyed black hair over henna on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution and Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

ljkforu - on previously black dyed ends, hennaed hair, with tap water, ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455932&postcount=3335

ljkforu - more information on her honey lightening recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=433208&postcount=3270

ljkforu - feedback from those around her, in real life
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=437566&postcount=3282

[ktani]

Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)." (http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html)

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. " (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust." (http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm)

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used " (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I should add that after my third honey treatment, I soaked my hair in a lemon rinse. (I just eyeballed the lemon and the water, so I don't know how much it was.) The water had a pink tinge after I pulled my hair out and dumped it over the rest. I don't know if it means the henna actually might be coming out, and not just lightening, or it was my shampoo (which is a British brand, and has henna in it).

[Sokudo Ningyou]

Oh, and I almost forgot: has anyone tried mixing their honey with 3% hydrogen pyroxide instead of water?

[ktani]

Oh, and I almost forgot: has anyone tried mixing their honey with 3&#37; hydrogen pyroxide instead of water?

I do not recommend it. The honey alone would not offer the damage protection you would need against conventional peroxide, which is 1000 stronger than the peroxide honey produces (comparing honey peroxide to 3% conventional peroxide). The protective constituents in honey protect the hair from damage from its peroxide but adding conventional peroxide to honey is not going to be as effective, in terms of damage protection, as pre-treating the hair. You can pre-treat the hair first, with coconut oil or coconut and argan oils, as you can with using peroxide on its own or other conventional lightening systems, which based on reports, minimizes hair damage. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495)

Honey lightening peroxide has not been reported to cause hair damage, to date, no matter how often honey lightening is done or how long a recipe is left on the hair. As well, adding conventional peroxide to honey will not raise the pH of the solution enough (conventional peroxide is acidic) for honey to produce its optimal amount of peroxide, the way distilled water, with a pH of 7 can do, with the new dilution. Honey needs a pH of 6 to do that and most honeys on the market are less than that pH. Even if the honey used were a pH of 6 on dilution with water, conventional peroxide would lower it.

You can use lemon juice or conventional peroxide separately from honey lightening (lemon juice depletes peroxide and is not recommended to be used in a honey lightening recipe, for that reason). Lemon juice has been reported to redarken the hair colour when used on henna but can lighten it somewhat, based on reports. It is better I think, to mix it with conditioner (http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=40946), to help prevent dryness and damage.

[ktani]

Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with strong oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and can deplete or negatively interact, with the peroxide levels of honey lightening recipes, IMO.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be enough protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pretreatment (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=526598&postcount=3521) before conventional peroxide (which is much stronger than honey lightening peroxide) is used, and the peroxide applied over them (coconut or coconut and argan oils are the best choices for that) or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce natural peroxide.

Here is a thread about helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach and hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut and oils (which contain protective chelators (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pretreatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

[ktani]

Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Also see Honey blends (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575).

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382).

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

[ktani]

Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495) and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

[ljkforu]

Oh, and I almost forgot: has anyone tried mixing their honey with 3% hydrogen pyroxide instead of water?
I just used good old fashioned fireweed honey and got great results. Peroxide was unnecessary.

[ktani]

I just used good old fashioned fireweed honey and got great results. Peroxide was unnecessary.

I added fireweed honey to the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin) and I recommend it, based on your reports.

[ktani]

I am guilty of still smoking (this is a 1 post hijack of this thread. I do this on occasion, lol). I have been trying to eat better on a reduced budget and I do not take a multiviamin. I used to take 1000 mg of Vitamin C and a Vitamin B supplement but I have not been taking those either. And I bought a Vitamin D supplement I have not been taking.

I have been working extraordinarily hard this past month and it has paid off in my doing very well, having gone back to school. However every 2 weeks or so, I am extraordinarily tired too.

This article makes perfect sense and I am going to rethink what I do know but have not acted on. Eating better and cutting down to quit smoking. No more excuses. The article makes perfect sense to me.

"To Schwarcz, a food chemist who wrote 2007's An Apple a Day (Harper Perennial) to scientifically counter consumers' worst flights of food fancy, it's the $23.7-billion question. (http://www.canada.com/health/diet-fitness/need+your/1406345/story.html)

"People take multivitamins as nutritional insurance," he says (Statistics Canada reported in 2004 that half of Canadian women take vitamins). "Most people are eating crap and thinking that they'll take a vitamin to equalize things. It's pointless. The problem with our diet is not a lack of vitamins. It's the fat, salt and sugar. Those issues are not addressed by taking more vitamins." (http://www.canada.com/health/diet-fitness/need+your/1406345/story.html)

"The trouble is that we had a range of epidemiological studies showing that whole grains, fruits and vegetables were beneficial for a range of health issues, so it was assumed antioxidants and vitamins were the source and we isolated them in supplements. This is too simplistic," Schwarcz explains. (http://www.canada.com/health/diet-fitness/need+your/1406345/story.html)

"There are studies that show you can't take one compound from a food and get the same result as eating it." (http://www.canada.com/health/diet-fitness/need+your/1406345/story.html)

What's more, there are growing questions about whether most supplements do any good at all, says Ottawa Hospital urologist Dr. John Mahoney, who recently contributed to an international National Cancer Institute-funded study that attempted -- and failed -- to prove a link between reduced prostate cancer and selenium/ vitamin E supplements." (http://www.canada.com/health/diet-fitness/need+your/1406345/story.html)

The article points out, that like using a successful herbal treatment on hair, isolating one component and using that only, does not have the same effect as using the whole plant.

I will also have to rethink the amount of sugar I have been eating, because although I am very thin right now, and despite wanting to believe otherwise in my weaker moments, a sweet is not food. A caramel sundae, although a "little bit of heaven" is not a meal, lol.

[Cassi]

ktani .... you are so right about taking better care of the body, but I find it so difficult to break myself of my bad eating habits, etc. I guess even a small improvement in how we treat ourselves can make a difference. :)

[ktani]

ktani .... you are so right about taking better care of the body, but I find it so difficult to break myself of my bad eating habits, etc. I guess even a small improvement in how we treat ourselves can make a difference. :)

Thanks. It is not easy. But one small change at a time can make a huge difference. In the article it is recommended to take certain supplements like Vitamin D. I did that yesterday and I did feel somewhat better. It needs to be taken every day though. There is Vitamin D in my soy milk but when or if you do not get outdoors enough, the supplement can help.

[Shikyo]

As ktani asked me to report in this thread, here I am.

Here is with what I started:
http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/beforehoney.jpg

Here is what I ended up with:
http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/afterhoney.jpg

What I used was simple distilled water(that is ages old) with a four to one ratio of water to honey(honey was measured in weight). This was done three times once a day, two first times with just a plastic bag and then a swimming cap. I simply poured the solution on my head and massaged and poured again until everything was covered.

On the third time I rinsed my head with a vinegar(I think it's Apple Cider Vinegar definitely something similar, with some honey in it) 3 tablespoons in 1l water. After rinsing out the honey with just some cold water I poured it on my head and let it dry out on its own.

Results: The hair has definitely gotten a little lighter, a lot at the end of the hair as you can see in the picture. Other than that it seems that my hair has gotten a red tone into it, that did not exist before. Need to find out what caused this. The red tone in the first picture is the left over from me coloring my hair blue-black 4 years ago, it never regained its original color.

Goal: As the ends of my hair have become that light, I will try out if I'll be able to get most of my hair as light as that.

[ktani]

As ktani asked me to report in this thread, here I am.

Here is with what I started:
http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/beforehoney.jpg

Here is what I ended up with:
http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/afterhoney.jpg

What I used was simple distilled water(that is ages old) with a four to one ratio of water to honey(honey was measured in weight). This was done three times once a day, two first times with just a plastic bag and then a swimming cap. I simply poured the solution on my head and massaged and poured again until everything was covered.

On the third time I rinsed my head with a vinegar(I think it's Apple Cider Vinegar definitely something similar, with some honey in it) 3 tablespoons in 1l water. After rinsing out the honey with just some cold water I poured it on my head and let it dry out on its own.

Results: The hair has definitely gotten a little lighter, a lot at the end of the hair as you can see in the picture. Other than that it seems that my hair has gotten a red tone into it, that did not exist before. Need to find out what caused this. The red tone in the first picture is the left over from me coloring my hair blue-black 4 years ago, it never regained its original color.

Goal: As the ends of my hair have become that light, I will try out if I'll be able to get most of my hair as light as that.

Thank you so much for the detailed report with pictures! I can see that your ends did get lighter, if the lighting in your after picture is accurate (just checking).

Apple cider vinegar has been reported to add a red tint to hair on a number of occasions, in posts on the boards. Honey lightening with the new recipes, has not been reported to add any colour to the hair.

Switching to white vinegar instead of acv should solve that problem for you.

You ends getting most of the lightening is not unusual. The ends of your hair were lighter to begin with and similar results have been reported because the treatment drips and pools inside of the bag or covering, so it looks like your ends got more of the treatment on them, during the treatment time, and they stayed wetter.

Try pinning your hair up during a treatment. If all of the hair is evenly, thoroughly wet, you should get a more even result.

[Shikyo]

Thank you so much for the detailed report with pictures. I can see that your ends did get lighter, if the lighting in your after picture is accurate (just checking).

You're welcome, it was a pleasure. If I already do a report, then detailed, don't you agree?

The pictures were shot in RAW file format and edited by me to resemble the reality as closely as possible. Therefore the accuracy should be as good as possible; however, as the picture have been taken at a different time under different lighting conditions, they are not the best choice for comparing, but sadly I forgot to take a picture before I did the treatment, so I had to go through my old pictures hoping to find one that works out thus making this the best option for an accurate comparison.


Apple cider vinegar has been reported to add a red tint to hair on a number of occasions, in posts on the boards. Honey lightening with the new recipes, has not been reported to add any colour to the hair.

So I guess I should try out white vinegar instead for the rinsing?

[ktani]

You're welcome, it was a pleasure. If I already do a report, then detailed, don't you agree?

The pictures were shot in RAW file format and edited by me to resemble the reality as closely as possible. Therefore the accuracy should be as good as possible; however, as the picture have been taken at a different time under different lighting conditions, they are not the best choice for comparing, but sadly I forgot to take a picture before I did the treatment, so I had to go through my old pictures hoping to find one that works out thus making this the best option for an accurate comparison.

So I guess I should try out white vinegar instead for the rinsing?

Excellent details, yes, I agree!

The vinegar is optional but yes, if you like using it, white is best if you want no added colour. You can just rinse with water if you like.

[Shikyo]

Switching to white vinegar instead of acv should solve that problem for you.

Somehow I managed to catch only part of your message. You already answered my question, I had. So gotta go find some white vinegar instead.


You ends getting most of the lightening is not unusual. The ends of your hair were lighter to begin with and similar results have been reported because the treatment drips and pools inside of the bag or covering, so it looks like your ends got more of the treatment on them, during the treatment time, and they stayed wetter.

I think it was when I did not have the swimming cap, as with the plastic bag the extra honey collect at the end. Only the tips were in contact with the liquid thus being extra wet for the time. It makes sense anyway.


Try pinning your hair up during a treatment. If all of the hair is evenly, thoroughly wet, you should get a more even result.

Should not be a problem with the swimming cap now. The honey seemed to be a lot more evenly wet than the times before.

[ktani]

Somehow I managed to catch only part of your message. You already answered my question, I had. So gotta go find some white vinegar instead.



I think it was when I did not have the swimming cap, as with the plastic bag the extra honey collect at the end. Only the tips were in contact with the liquid thus being extra wet for the time. It makes sense anyway.



Should not be a problem with the swimming cap now. The honey seemed to be a lot more evenly wet than the times before.

This all sounds good.

You may not need to use vinegar but it is a choice. It is not critical to the honey lightening process of rinsing out a treatment.

However, because some honeys leave a residue, you may find vinegar helpful. If you use a different honey honey that leaves a lot of residue, vinegar may not be enough to remove it and shampooing may be necessary. If you do use vingar, dilute it well and use white vinegar.

Vinegar is not harmful to hair nor can it lighten hair. Acv can darken and add colour to hair. Any vinegar not well diluted enough can be drying to hair. Vinegar has been reported to help remove some honey residue but shampoo has been reported to be best for that.

Not all honeys leave enough of any residue to be noticable, so it depends on the honey you use, as to whether you need anything, following rinsing with water, to help remove a honey lightening treatment. It also depends on the recipe used. Some people like to use conditioner only, to remove a recipe that they added oil to, for extra peroxide and conditioning.

I just realized that you are in Finland. Have you seen Fethenwen's recipe? (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712) She and another person from Finland, ShaSha, both used SAM honey with great success. It also appears that you have great tap water there (a great pH and almost no minerals in it), although I do not know if that is everywhere in Finland. ShaSha's report is below.

ShaSha, after a 2nd treatment, with just honey and tap water (the first was honey, tap water and cassia but there are no pictures)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=527243&postcount=3523

recipe and method details for the 2nd treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528545&postcount=3542

It depends on the pH of both the water and the honey (honey in solution needs to be pH 6, to produce its maximim peroxide level) and the water needs to have almost no minerals in it, which at a higher level, can negatively affect the peroxide produced by the honey. If, as I suspect, SAM honey has a higher pH than most honeys, you may be able to use more honey to water, than the new dilution. This may give you even better, faster results. Otherwise, the new dilution with your tap or distilled water, can raise the pH of a honey to the optimal pH needed but you will be using less honey.

[Shikyo]

This all sounds good.

You may not need to use vinegar but it is a choice. It is not critical to the honey lightening process of rinsing out a treatment.

Don't need to, as I already made few rounds without it. Just makes my hair feel nicer, so I think I'll keep using it.


However, because some honeys leave a residue, you may find vinegar helpful. If you use a different honey honey that leaves a lot of residue, vinegar may not be enough to remove it and shampooing may be necessary. If you do use vingar, dilute it well and use white vinegar.

I didn't seem to have any residue after rinsing my hair with cold water. At least nothing that I knew was residue.


Vinegar is not harmful to hair nor can it lighten hair. Acv can darken and add colour to hair. Any vinegar not well diluted enough can be drying to hair. Vinegar has been reported to help remove some honey residue but shampoo has been reported to be best for that.

Now I know, just gotta find some white vinegar now. Should not be that hard.


I just realized that you are in Finland. Have you seen Fethenwen's recipe? (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712) She and another person from Finland, ShaSha, both used SAM honey with great success. It also appears that you have great tap water there, although I do not know if that is everywhere in Finland. ShaSha's report is below.

ShaSha, after a 2nd treatment, with just honey and tap water (the first was honey, tap water and cassia but there are no pictures)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=527243&postcount=3523

recipe and method details for the 2nd treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528545&postcount=3542

That's the honey I used as well. Found the list with recommend honey's in it. Was surprised to find Finland in it, but lucky for me.

The pH for the water where I live should be 7,7, but I'll always have some distilled water in the house anyway, so might just use it for honey too.

Next time I do the honey, I think I'll try out little bit more in it, not just honey but something else too. I'll give a nice look into the recipes you gave.

[ktani]

Don't need to, as I already made few rounds without it. Just makes my hair feel nicer, so I think I'll keep using it.



I didn't seem to have any residue after rinsing my hair with cold water. At least nothing that I knew was residue.



Now I know, just gotta find some white vinegar now. Should not be that hard.



That's the honey I used as well. Found the list with recommend honey's in it. Was surprised to find Finland in it, but lucky for me.

The pH for the water where I live should be 7,7, but I'll always have some distilled water in the house anyway, so might just use it for honey too.

Next time I do the honey, I think I'll try out little bit more in it, not just honey but something else too. I'll give a nice look into the recipes you gave.

Great! You now have a number of options to play with. Good luck and please update.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I've been using lemon juice diluted in water for a final rinse, since I was out of white vinegar. Did it make a difference? I don't know. But my hair has been increasingly softer, nicer, and lasting longer between shampoos since I started the honey. And that's not even a daily event; I've only done it four times now.
The only problem I've had is at my sideburns, by my ear; no matter what I do, once my hair dries, they have varying degrees of crunchiness. But after a day or so, they soften up, and I don't notice it. I shampoo, I scrub, but it keeps doing it, even now, almost a week and two shampoos after a honey treatment. It's odd, though perhaps it's because those spots tend to dry out, since caps don't cover those spots well.

[ktani]

I've been using lemon juice diluted in water for a final rinse, since I was out of white vinegar. Did it make a difference? I don't know. But my hair has been increasingly softer, nicer, and lasting longer between shampoos since I started the honey. And that's not even a daily event; I've only done it four times now.
The only problem I've had is at my sideburns, by my ear; no matter what I do, once my hair dries, they have varying degrees of crunchiness. But after a day or so, they soften up, and I don't notice it. I shampoo, I scrub, but it keeps doing it, even now, almost a week and two shampoos after a honey treatment. It's odd, though perhaps it's because those spots tend to dry out, since caps don't cover those spots well.

Try putting your lemon and water rinse on those sports to help remove the honey after a treatment. You can take a cotton ball soaked with your rinse and apply it to the areas, leave it for a bit, then rinse. Lemon juice can be drying but if you dilute it enough, it is fine and not a problem used after a honey lightening treatment, like you are doing or any time as a post wash rinse. When you get more vinegar, vinegar and water may help too. Or just when you are in the shower or bath run the water continuously over those areas.

To help prevent the areas from drying out during a treatment, mist them again before you cover your hair and during a treatment. Peel back the cap a bit, just there on each side, mist with water and recover. It sounds as if the treatment is pooling there, trying to drip and getting "stuck".

[ktani]

Notes on EVOO (Extra Virgin Olive Oil) PV is short for Peroxide Value
"The PV is greatly reduced by the refining process used for most vegetable oils. Virgin olive oils are not exposed to such processes and the PVs permitted in these products are considerably higher. The IOOC and CAC standards permit extra-virgin olive oils to have PVs of up to 20 meq/kg, while pure olive oils, which by definition are blends of virgin and refined olive oils, must have PVs below 10 meq/kg. (http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm)"

In other words, the peroxide value of a pure evoo is going to be higher than that of a blend of evoo and olive oil, which would be about that of coconut oil.

Here is one source for cardamom essential oil and they sell samples, as well as provide information. (http://www.100pureessentialoils.com/site/1562898/page/710050)

[Shikyo]

Here are the new results, for a new combination I tried out. Otherwise the same as before, but I added 2 teaspoons of cardamom and 2 teaspoons of cinnamon. Also I only left it on my hair for an hour.

In each picture I'm wearing the same shirt and the wall is black, so I modified the earlier picture a little by taking the black shirt as the black point and the white wall as white point, to create the most accurate comparison as the lighting is always slightly different.

Before the treatment(the same one as before, as this was the starting point for this time):

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/afterhoney.jpg

After the treatment with no flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/newhoneymixture.jpg

After the treatment with Flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/newhoneymixturewithflash.jpg

Results: There was a lot more lightening done than I expected. Not going to give up with the lightening. It seems to be possible to get lighter and lighter so I shall keep trying.

I shall keep you updated on my journey to lighter hair. I also changed to white vinegar for the rinsing and after the one time I've used it, it seems to like it more than the one I had before.

[ktani]

Here are the new results, for a new combination I tried out. Otherwise the same as before, but I added 2 teaspoons of cardamom and 2 teaspoons of cinnamon. Also I only left it on my hair for an hour.

In each picture I'm wearing the same shirt and the wall is black, so I modified the earlier picture a little by taking the black shirt as the black point and the white wall as white point, to create the most accurate comparison as the lighting is always slightly different.

Before the treatment(the same one as before, as this was the starting point for this time):

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/afterhoney.jpg

After the treatment with no flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/newhoneymixture.jpg

After the treatment with Flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/newhoneymixturewithflash.jpg

Results: There was a lot more lightening done than I expected. Not going to give up with the lightening. It seems to be possible to get lighter and lighter so I shall keep trying.

I shall keep you updated on my journey to lighter hair. I also changed to white vinegar for the rinsing and after the one time I've used it, it seems to like it more than the one I had before.

WOW! I consider this an unqualified success in terms of results. Nicely done and an example too of how 1 hour is all that is needed for honey lightening, when all the variables are in place. I and going to add your results with recipes, to the Pictures Posts.

Nicely Done! Congratulations!!!! I look forward to more reports and pictures. Thank you as well for explaining about the lighting and what you did to get the most acurate pictures.

[Shikyo]

WOW! I consider this an unqualified success in terms of results. Nicely done and an example too of how 1 hour is all that is needed for honey lightening, when all the variables are in place. I and going to add your results with recipes, to the Pictures Posts.

That just reminded me that I forgot to mention something earlier. As from what I understood it works the best if the hair is as wet as possible, so I decided to dip my head into the liquid. I kept my head under the liquid for 60 minutes and turned my head around when I started to feel the it becoming dry again. My SO helped me with the locations I could not wet myself by just turning the head, she did this every 15 minutes. Getting it off from the hair was rather painful though, totally possible without any use of shampoo or anything else just plain water.

Shall I actually write more detailed what I did to gain this result?


Nicely Done! Congratulations!!!! I look forward to more reports and pictures. Thank you as well for explaining about the lighting and what you did to get the most acurate pictures.

Thank you. I'll try to do my best from now to get even better results. More pictures and reports to come assuming they work. I thought I'd add the information about lighting and the pictures, so that everyone knows how well they can be compared. This time I also noticed that the flash on the camera really changes my hair color, so I also gave you one without the flash. It is strange as in the pictures my hair seems a lot more reddish than in real life.

[ktani]

That just reminded me that I forgot to mention something earlier. As from what I understood it works the best if the hair is as wet as possible, so I decided to dip my head into the liquid. I kept my head under the liquid for 60 minutes and turned my head around when I started to feel the it becoming dry again. My SO helped me with the locations I could not wet myself by just turning the head, she did this every 15 minutes. Getting it off from the hair was rather painful though, totally possible without any use of shampoo or anything else just plain water.

Shall I actually write more detailed what I did to gain this result?



Thank you. I'll try to do my best from now to get even better results. More pictures and reports to come assuming they work. I thought I'd add the information about lighting and the pictures, so that everyone knows how well they can be compared. This time I also noticed that the flash on the camera really changes my hair color, so I also gave you one without the flash. It is strange as in the pictures my hair seems a lot more reddish than in real life.

Yes please give as many details as possible. Your method sounds very innovative. You can CO (use conditioner only) wash out a treatment, if you like.

I would also like you to give details as you go, on the condition of your hair. Your biggest concern was hair damage. Signs of peroxide damage to hair are hair that becomes: gummy, thin, brittle, split, and broken. None of these signs has been reported with the use of honey lightening.

Note: gummy hair was reported in one case only but it turned out to be honey residue. Shampoo eventually removed it but the person had to give up honey lightening because honey always caused a residue problem for them and they did get mechanical damage because of the residue issue. They did not get any damage from the peroxide in their recipe.

[ktani]

The Pictures Post of hair by hair colour category is too big now, so I am going to break it down.

[ktani]

Honey Lightening Results

On blonde hair

firebird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth, with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393, on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner, -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097, on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments,
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765, picture, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767, no damage reported, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055, on the condition of her hair after 2 treatments, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

BranwenWolf - honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504, recipe and method details -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506

Shikyo - honey lightening on a mix of virgin and previously dyed hair (previously dyed 3 years ago), recipe and first results
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=651737&postcount=3901, new recipe - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654025&postcount=3912, method details -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654068&postcount=3914, complete method details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654116&postcount=3920, more lightening - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=657584&postcount=3934, details on lighting and pictures - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=658495&postcount=3936

Reptilia - 1 treatment on previously dyed hair with virgin roots, ground cinnamon, ground cardamon and evoo - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=725765&postcount=4091, results and the condition of her hair - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=726171&postcount=4093

HuggyBear - after 4 treatments on natural medium dark blonde hair - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1216286&postcount=4357, on the condition of her hair - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1216320&postcount=4359, recipe and method and honey used - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1216379&postcount=4361, hair colour, and location, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1216456&postcount=4363, after 5 treatments, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1225586&postcount=4377

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening

On medium shades of hair

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1299 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299)

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1721 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721)

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1633 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633)

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1635 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635)

ShaSha, after a 2nd treatment, with just honey and tap water (the first was honey, tap water and cassia but there are no pictures)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3523 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=527243&postcount=3523)

recipe and method details for the 2nd treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3542 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3542)

maryann, on virgin hair with one cassia treatment, after several overnight honey lightening treatments, with the new dilution, and wearing a shower cap
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=703087&postcount=4041

tokidokichi, on conventional dyed red dyed, after 1 treatment with the new dilution and distilled water with evoo and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1045670&postcount=4295

details on the condition of her hair and the brand of honey used
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1045811&postcount=4297

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening

On dark hair - henna and henndigo

Maluhia and Viviane - from an older Honey thread with the old dilution recipes, Maluhia honey lightened chemical dye and Vivianne, on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

mellie - from an older Honey thread - on henndigoed hair (baq henna used once or twice) - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

mellie - pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna -
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, ground cinnamon and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119360&postcount=867

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 3 treatments - 1 with the new dilution, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176427&postcount=1583

LadyPolaris - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176471&postcount=1586

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - 2 with the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Sokudo Ningyou, after 1 treatment of honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=627717&postcount=3851, - after her 3rd treatment, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=638349&postcount=3877

lundmir, after 1 treatment, of honey, distilled water and ground cinnamon, on previously dyed and henned hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681359&postcount=3989, method and washing out details, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681389&postcount=3991

Merrykat, 2 treatments of a new dilution recipe, on previously dyed and hennaed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=720212&postcount=4100

Tangles, medium dark brown hair with some henndigo, after 5 or 6 hour long hour long treatments with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=776079&postcount=4136, details and recipe, with a before picture - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=776937&postcount=4138

lilravendark, on previously henndigoed hair, after 4 treatments, with 50:50 honey and boiled tap water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1083309&postcount=4319, details, recipe, method and honey used -
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1084379&postcount=4321, the condition of her hair following honey lightening - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1085526&postcount=4323

Heartwillfollow, after 6 honey lightening treatments on hennaed hair - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1232986&postcount=4398 more details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1233382&postcount=4405

[Shikyo]

Yes please give as many details as possible. Your method sounds very innovative. You can CO (use conditioner only) wash out a treatment, if you like.

I would also like you to give details as you go, on the condition of your hair. Your biggest concern was hair damage. Signs of peroxide damage to hair are hair that becomes: gummy, thin, brittle, split, and broken. None of these signs has been reported with the use of honey lightening.

Note: gummy hair was reported in one case only but it turned out to be honey residue. Shampoo eventually removed it but the person had to give up honey lightening because honey always caused a residue problem for them and they did get mechanical damage because of the residue issue. They did not get any damage from the peroxide in their recipe.

I will do my best.

How I made the honey liquid:

- 1 liter distilled water
- 225g SAM hunajaa(Finnish honey brand)
- 2 teaspoons of cardamom
- 2 teaspoons of cinnamon

First I put the honey into a big bowl then I added the water. I mixed it until the honey and water had been well mixed then I added cardamom and cinnamon into the liquid. Mixed it again until it was all smooth again(around 10-15 minutes). After that I waited for an hour before I started the treatment.

Treatment:

Not to hurt my head, especially the neck, I prepared a nice slot on the floor by putting a bean bag rather flatly on the floor, so that I had a nice height for putting my head in to the bowl. I laid down on the bean bag and careful put my hair and my head inside the bowl at the same time making sure there was no pain or anything else that might be unhealthy. As my hair was still dry, I needed someone else to help me cover all my hair with the liquid. After that I moved my head left and right whenever it felt like the hair was not as wet as it could have been. Every 15 minutes, for the first three times, after that the final time interval was only 7 minutes.

Cleaning Hair:

The hour had passed, it was time to clean the hair of the liquid. Because of a lot more moving the hair was kinda tangled up, so I had to be really careful with rinsing the hair. It took me 10-15 minutes to get everything out, but for my surprise I did not need anything else than just some cold tap water. I carefully massage my scalp a little when I dried the hair on a towel.

Condition of Hair:

It was hard to wait in excitement how the hair turned out to be. Unlike before I had to wait until my hair was totally dry, before I could even attempt to brush my hair. The time seemed to be going slowly, but finally the hair was dry enough. I could start looking into the condition of my hair. I could not believe it, but it seems my hair really liked the treatment. My hair felt a lot better than on the times when I had used only distilled water and honey. I did not even use white vinegar for rinsing the hair out in the end as I wanted to know how the treatment itself makes the hair feel like. Simply put the honey treatment seems to have made the hair just better and healthier than it was before.

Results:

This way of doing the treatment was a lot more trouble than just using a swim cap or something similar. I'm not sure if the results were better because of the different recipe I used or because of the totally wet hair. Both are plausible answers. As you could see in the pictures before, the treatment did wonders and lightened my hair a lot better than the trials before. Not to forget that my hair got a very nice smell and it felt a lot better as well.

Hair Condition before any Treatments:

About 10" or maybe little more had been dyed few years ago with blue-black dye. Other than that I've only used shampoo and conditioners on my hair. My hair always seemed to be rather easy to tangle, unless I brushed my hair several times a day.

End Words:

If there are any questions about the way I did it, I will be glad to answer your questions. This will not be the end of my experimental phase as there are still some clearly lighter areas in my hair, so I'm aiming to get the whole hair to that color.

[ktani]

I will do my best.

How I made the honey liquid:

- 1 liter distilled water
- 225g SAM hunajaa(Finnish honey brand)
- 2 teaspoons of cardamom
- 2 teaspoons of cinnamon

First I put the honey into a big bowl then I added the water. I mixed it until the honey and water had been well mixed then I added cardamom and cinnamon into the liquid. Mixed it again until it was all smooth again(around 10-15 minutes). After that I waited for an hour before I started the treatment.

Treatment:

Not to hurt my head, especially the neck, I prepared a nice slot on the floor by putting a bean bag rather flatly on the floor, so that I had a nice height for putting my head in to the bowl. I laid down on the bean bag and careful put my hair and my head inside the bowl at the same time making sure there was no pain or anything else that might be unhealthy. As my hair was still dry, I needed someone else to help me cover all my hair with the liquid. After that I moved my head left and right whenever it felt like the hair was not as wet as it could have been. Every 15 minutes, for the first three times, after that the final time interval was only 7 minutes.

Cleaning Hair:

The hour had passed, it was time to clean the hair of the liquid. Because of a lot more moving the hair was kinda tangled up, so I had to be really careful with rinsing the hair. It took me 10-15 minutes to get everything out, but for my surprise I did not need anything else than just some cold tap water. I carefully massage my scalp a little when I dried the hair on a towel.

Condition of Hair:

It was hard to wait in excitement how the hair turned out to be. Unlike before I had to wait until my hair was totally dry, before I could even attempt to brush my hair. The time seemed to be going slowly, but finally the hair was dry enough. I could start looking into the condition of my hair. I could not believe it, but it seems my hair really liked the treatment. My hair felt a lot better than on the times when I had used only distilled water and honey. I did not even use white vinegar for rinsing the hair out in the end as I wanted to know how the treatment itself makes the hair feel like. Simply put the honey treatment seems to have made the hair just better and healthier than it was before.

Results:

This way of doing the treatment was a lot more trouble than just using a swim cap or something similar. I'm not sure if the results were better because of the different recipe I used or because of the totally wet hair. Both are plausible answers. As you could see in the pictures before, the treatment did wonders and lightened my hair a lot better than the trials before. Not to forget that my hair got a very nice smell and it felt a lot better as well.

Hair Condition before any Treatments:

About 10" or maybe little more had been dyed few years ago with blue-black dye. Other than that I've only used shampoo and conditioners on my hair. My hair always seemed to be rather easy to tangle, unless I brushed my hair several times a day.

End Words:

If there are any questions about the way I did it, I will be glad to answer your questions. This will not be the end of my experimental phase as there are still some clearly lighter areas in my hair, so I'm aiming to get the whole hair to that color.

Amazing report and method! I am very, very impressed!

By my calculations you were a little high in the water amount used. 250 g x 4 = 1000 and 1 litre of water weighs 1000 grams, so you can use more honey next time if you wish. With SAM honey, I think you may have room to play with using more honey in any case because of its pH.

Thank you so much for all of this effort to describe exactly what you did and used and your results are gorgeous!

[Shikyo]

Amazing report and method! I am very, very impressed!

Thank you. I prefer doing things as detailed as possible, if its any use for other people. The method was just something that got stuck to my head when someone, I think you said, it should be as wet as possible, so made it so that it is as wet as I can make it.


By my calculations you were a little high in the water amount used. 250 g x 4 = 1000 and 1 litre of water weighs 1000 grams, so you can use more honey next time if you wish. With SAM honey, I think you may have room to play with using more honey in any case because of its pH.

This brings me to a question, so is the pH value the biggest issue with using more honey in the recipe? Sadly the SAM hunaja packages is only 450g, as I'm not willing to pay that 1 Euro extra just for 50g more and a nice fancy bottle. That's why I used little less than the recipe called for.


Thank you so much for all of this effort to describe exactly what you did and used and your results are gorgeous!

*blushes* I'm the one who should be thanking here. Without you I would never had the idea to try anything like this anyway. So let's say I'm simply repaying my debt to you, if you are fine with that. I can assure you is going to be more about me and my hair.

[Heidi_234]

This makes me want to do full length lightening again, with the bowl and the pillow idea. Hmm...

[ktani]

Thank you. I prefer doing things as detailed as possible, if its any use for other people. The method was just something that got stuck to my head when someone, I think you said, it should be as wet as possible, so made it so that it is as wet as I can make it.

This brings me to a question, so is the pH value the biggest issue with using more honey in the recipe? Sadly the SAM hunaja packages is only 450g, as I'm not willing to pay that 1 Euro extra just for 50g more and a nice fancy bottle. That's why I used little less than the recipe called for.

*blushes* I'm the one who should be thanking here. Without you I would never had the idea to try anything like this anyway. So let's say I'm simply repaying my debt to you, if you are fine with that. I can assure you is going to be more about me and my hair.

"This brings me to a question, so is the pH value the biggest issue with using more honey in the recipe? Sadly the SAM hunaja packages is only 450g, as I'm not willing to pay that 1 Euro extra just for 50g more and a nice fancy bottle. That's why I used little less than the recipe called for."

It may be. I do not know for sure what the pH of SAM honey is in solution but going by ShaSha's report, it sounds as if it is higher than most honeys on the market. I do not think the 100 gram difference in your recipe would make that much of a difference but it may somewhat in the results.

All of the factors are of equal value. The honey, the water and the pH of both are important, as well as keeping the hair very wet, covered or uncovered. You were right on with a good honey, distilled water, an advanced (use of the spices) recipe and your unique method.

As far a repaying your debt? Consider your report as excellent as it is and your innovative method more than enough repayment, lol.

[ktani]

Shikyo

I added your reports here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712) too.

[ktani]

Thank you to everyone for all the new reports! Please keep them coming, regardless of the initial results. You never know what a seemingly small change may accomplish, in terms of new results.

[ktani]

"If there are any questions about the way I did it, I will be glad to answer your questions. " (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654116&postcount=3920)

Please post any questions here in the thread, so that the questions and answers can be seen and be a benefit to all. The offer is most generous, even though it was in reply to a post of mine, and I will leave it to Shikyo, of course, to answer any and all questions about her innovative, new method.

Any other questions, I will be happy to reply to, as always.

[Shikyo]

It may be. I do not know for sure what the pH of SAM honey is in solution but going by ShaSha's report, it sounds as if it is higher than most honeys on the market. I do not think the 100 gram difference in your recipe would make that much of a difference but it may somewhat in the results.

All of the factors are of equal value. The honey, the water and the pH of both are important, as well as keeping the hair very wet, covered or uncovered. You were right on with a good honey, distilled water, an advanced (use of the spices) recipe and your unique method.

So technically speaking there would be the optical pH for the end solution with everything mixed into it. As the distilled water is already as optimal as the water can get, we can count that one out, the same should go for the honey as I don't think I can get anything better than that honey from Finland. But the pH is still something mysterious as it has not been measured in anyway nor is it really possible to be measured without tools for it. Do you know the optimal pH for honey solution? I mean as everything counts into the progress of getting the hair lighter, that would also mean that there are some pH values that would give a way better results than some others.

What I'm thinking is that if we can get all the three major factors into the optimal combination that should make the recipe even better.

This brings me to an idea of actually experimenting around now. Making few different kinds of honey solutions then taking some stray hair from comb etc. to get hair that I don't have to worry about messing up. Yes, I think I'll do that later on today or so.


As far a repaying your debt? Consider your report as excellent as it is and your innovative method more than enough repayment, lol.

Somehow I'm surprised no one else tried it this way before as for me it was in my head it was the first idea that came to be, but did not try it out until later with great success.

[ktani]

Do you know the optimal pH for honey solution?

The pH for a honey to produce its optimal peroxide level, is 6 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=282315&postcount=2296).

[ktani]

This time I also noticed that the flash on the camera really changes my hair color, so I also gave you one without the flash. It is strange as in the pictures my hair seems a lot more reddish than in real life.

I forgot to address this issue. It has been noted before in other Honey threads, especially with certain lighter shades of blonde. Flash, for some reason, can make hair appear more gold than it really is in real life. I do not know the technical reason why it can do that. One person, for example, with ash blonde hair used to use flash at times and her hair appeared to be very gold, while without flash, it looked like it does in real life, ash blonde.

[Shikyo]

I forgot to address this issue. It has been noted before in other Honey threads, especially with certain lighter shades of blonde. Flash, for some reason, can make hair appear more gold than it really is in real life. I do not know the technical reason why it can do that. One person, for example, with ash blonde hair used to use flash at times and her hair appeared to be very gold, while without flash, it looked like it does in real life, ash blonde.

That explains a lot. I was looking into it and I found something about that the camera might be able to see colors the human eye is unable to see, but it still did not make real sense to me. So maybe the honey actually adds a color to the hair; however, it is not possible to see that color without a flash/camera.

As for me, it's not just the picture with the flash, but also the one without the flash. The one without the flash just is not as different compared to the flash.

[ktani]

That explains a lot. I was looking into it and I found something about that the camera might be able to see colors the human eye is unable to see, but it still did not make real sense to me. So maybe the honey actually adds a color to the hair; however, it is not possible to see that color without a flash/camera.

As for me, it's not just the picture with the flash, but also the one without the flash. The one without the flash just is not as different compared to the flash.

Honey lightening has not been reported to add colour to to hair with the new recipes and dilution. One of the old recipes with tomato paste as an option, was reported to add red. Tomato products are no longer recommended because of the Vitamin C content, which depletes recipe peroxide. Chamomile tea, also part of a previous recipe recommendation, was reported to add a gold tint to hair.

I think that the flash just somehow adds colour that is not actually there.

Ah, the camera is picking up light reflected off of surfaces. (http://books.google.ca/books?id=eftR-e1nVAgC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=using+flash+adds+a++colour+cast+to+pictures&source=bl&ots=DpUXdLa8Qc&sig=xxUYhvhi3_NpXqXH4GMdaK_mmjU&hl=en&ei=BVlLSvy3EJCytwfRmPCbDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9) It is called a colour cast.

"ColorCast Correction
Almost all digital images suffer from some sort of color cast." (http://www.mediachance.com/plugins/help.html)

[Shikyo]

So I was experimenting a little bit in the last two days. In the first experiment I used the same honey solution(honey, distilled water, cardamom and cinnamon) as before with one little different, I did not use the bowl but the swim cap instead, for two hours.

Without a flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/newmixswimcap.jpg

With Flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/newmixswimcapwithflash.jpg

Results:

For some strange reason there is the biggest difference between with flash and without flash. I re-took the pictures again and again, but the difference was always there. The difference on the shirt is caused by the natural light that comes from left; however, with the flash cancels it out almost completely thus making the shirt seem evenly black with no highlights at all.

The second experiment was with the same recipe(honey, distilled water, cardamom and cinnamon) but I added one tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil to the mixture. Again inside a bowl for one hour.

Without Flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/honeyandoil.jpg

With Flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/honeyandoilwithflash.jpg

Results:

Compared to the picture from the day before the hair seems to have gotten darker, which technically is correct;however, it seems that the amount of oil that I added to the recipe was simply too much for my hair making the hair seem wet all the time. The hair is also a lot more stickier and behaves like it'd be wet even though it does not feel like it. Because of this I don't think the two pictures can be compared accurately.

Other results:

I've also noticed that my hair changes the color a lot more between light or dark light. Outside in the sun my hair seems a lot lighter than inside in the dark. It was like that before, but now after using honey it seems it has gotten a lot stronger in the difference. I'll try to make some pictures for a comparison, but I can't promise anything yet.

[ktani]

So I was experimenting a little bit in the last two days. In the first experiment I used the same honey solution as before with one little different, I did not use the bowl but the swim cap instead, for two hours.

Without a flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/newmixswimcap.jpg

With Flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/newmixswimcapwithflash.jpg

Results:

For some strange reason there is the biggest difference between with flash and without flash. I re-took the pictures again and again, but the difference was always there. The difference on the shirt is caused by the natural light that comes from left; however, with the flash cancels it out almost completely thus making the shirt seem evenly black with no highlights at all.

The second experiment was with the same recipe but I added one tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil to the mixture. Again inside a bowl for one hour.

Without Flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/honeyandoil.jpg

With Flash:

http://tukatapo.pp.fi/pictures/honeyandoilwithflash.jpg

Results:

Compared to the picture from the day before the hair seems to have gotten darker, which technically is correct;however, it seems that the amount of oil that I added to the recipe was simply too much for my hair making the hair seem wet all the time. The hair is also a lot more stickier and behaves like it'd be wet even though it does not feel like it. Because of this I don't think the two pictures can be compared accurately.

Other results:

I've also noticed that my hair changes the color a lot more between light or dark light. Outside in the sun my hair seems a lot lighter than inside in the dark. It was like that before, but now after using honey it seems it has gotten a lot stronger in the difference. I'll try to make some pictures for a comparison, but I can't promise anything yet.

Interesting, all of it. Thank you for another great report, thoughts on lighting and pictures.

1. Great results! Your hair is getting even lighter.

2. Olive oil was reported to add yellow to ash blonde hair and make it "darker". If there is still evoo in your hair that may be affecting the colour somewhat.

3. Daylight, without flash, is to me, the truest test of what the colour looks like.

4. Oily hair always looks darker in any case.

5. I am getting recipe confused. If I go by your very first post, it was just honey and distilled water. Then it was honey, distilled water and 2 tsp. each of powdered cinnamon and cardamom and now evoo, to which recipe? Have I got this right? I have your posts but you are doing multiple treatments, so it would be helpful to keep track of each recipe per time, as per the individual treatment results, as well as the methods used.

[Shikyo]

Interesting, all of it. Thank you for another great report, thoughts on lighting and pictures.

1. Great results! Your hair is getting even lighter.

2. Olive oil was reported to add yellow to ash blonde hair and make it "darker". If there is still evoo in your hair that may be affecting the colour somewhat.

3. Daylight, without flash, is to me, the truest test of what the colour looks like.

4. Oily hair always looks darker in any case.

5. I am getting recipe confused. If I go by your very first post, it was just honey and distilled water. Then it was honey, distilled water and 2 tsp. each of powdered cinnamon and cardamom and now evoo, to which recipe? Have I got this right? I have your posts but you are doing multiple treatments, so it would be helpful to keep track of each recipe per time, as per the individual treatment results, as well as the methods used.

1. Indeed, my hair is getting lighter and just making me more addicted wanting to get it lighter. It has also started to have a very strong shininess, in any lights, with the shiny areas being rather light no matter the lightening.

2. That would totally explain why the hair looks darker in the picture after one more honey treatment. I'm not quite sure if there is still some left in my hair as it feels different from before, it might also be that the use of no shampoo and no conditioner is getting to it now, as it's been almost a week since my last "wash".

3. The same for me, it's just interesting how it changes color a lot more strongly than before. I really gotta take a picture outside in the sun...

4. Isn't the reason for it the same as with the wet hair looks?

5. I edited my earlier post to add to both treatments what I had used for the solution. Only the two last pictures had extra virgin olive oil in them, until then my hair had been oil free area. I hope this cleared it up.

[ktani]

1. Indeed, my hair is getting lighter and just making me more addicted wanting to get it lighter. It has also started to have a very strong shininess, in any lights, with the shiny areas being rather light no matter the lightening.

2. That would totally explain why the hair looks darker in the picture after one more honey treatment. I'm not quite sure if there is still some left in my hair as it feels different from before, it might also be that the use of no shampoo and no conditioner is getting to it now, as it's been almost a week since my last "wash".

3. The same for me, it's just interesting how it changes color a lot more strongly than before. I really gotta take a picture outside in the sun...

4. Isn't the reason for it the same as with the wet hair looks?

5. I edited my earlier post to add to both treatments what I had used for the solution. Only the two last pictures had extra virgin olive oil in them, until then my hair had been oil free area. I hope this cleared it up.

Yes, oil and wet hair both look darker. My guess, saturation.

Yes, to no shampooing for a while too. The oil is probably still there, quite a bit.

Thank you for clearing up the recipe confusion for me. I will go back and read your edits.

I am glad that you are enjoying the lightening so much.

I gather that the condition of your hair is still good? I am excited for you with your results so far. I cannot put a ceiling on how light you can go with this, as it varies for different people and the honey, water and recipe they use, as well as their hair to begin with.

[Shikyo]

Yes, oil and wet hair both look darker. My guess, saturation.

From what I found it was because of the "density" of the hair, as when they are wet they get a lot closer compared to when they can fly around alone. There are probably a lot more ways to explain it, I would assume.


Yes, to no shampooing for a while too. The oil is probably still there, quite a bit.

As I just can't wash it out, so it's going to take a while. Next time I'll definitely use less oil.


Thank you for clearing up the recipe confusion for me. I will go back and read your edits.

Hopefully it was enough, if it wasn't I shall re-write the whole thing more clearly this time.


I am glad that you are enjoying the lightening so much.

I'm surprised about it myself. It's gone already that far that my SO starts to ask if there is something wrong when I don't put honey on my head every day.


I gather that the condition of your hair is still good? I am excited for you with your results so far. I cannot put a ceiling on how light you can go with this, as it varies for different people and the honey, water and recipe they use, as well as their hair to begin with.

The only "harm" done so far was the oiliness that happened because of the extra virgin olive oil. Besides that my hair seems to be just getting into a better and better condition. I haven't been able to find any real damage done to the hair because of the honey treatments.

I don't know how far I can get with honey, but I'll be doing my best to get as far as I can. Then it's going to be some trouble to actually keep it there.

[ktani]

1. From what I found it was because of the "density" of the hair, as when they are wet they get a lot closer compared to when they can fly around alone. There are probably a lot more ways to explain it, I would assume.



2. As I just can't wash it out, so it's going to take a while. Next time I'll definitely use less oil.



3. Hopefully it was enough, if it wasn't I shall re-write the whole thing more clearly this time.



4. I'm surprised about it myself. It's gone already that far that my SO starts to ask if there is something wrong when I don't put honey on my head every day.



5. The only "harm" done so far was the oiliness that happened because of the extra virgin olive oil. Besides that my hair seems to be just getting into a better and better condition. I haven't been able to find any real damage done to the hair because of the honey treatments.

6. I don't know how far I can get with honey, but I'll be doing my best to get as far as I can. Then it's going to be some trouble to actually keep it there.

1. I did not look that up yet. You did and it makes sense to me. Thank you.

2. CO'ing (conditioner only washes) with cheap, runny conditioner have been reported to remove oil well.

3. Your edits are perfect! Thank you again!

4. That is funny, lol.

5. Excellent and consistant will the other reports I told you about.

6. Honey lightening on your roots, lol.

[Shikyo]

1. I did not look that up yet. You did and it makes sense to me. Thank you.

The curse of getting bored one starts to look around for the stupidest piece of information.


2. CO'ing (conditioner only washes) with cheap, runny conditioner have been reported to remove oil well.

After having experience how nice my hair can feel without the use of commercial hair chemicals, I don't really want to go back to them, not even for something like this. Maybe I'll just try with baking soda at some point, my hair didn't seem to get any damage from it when I tried it out few days ago. Already the vinegar rinse helped a lot, maybe that is all I'll need in the end.


3. Your edits are perfect! Thank you again!

No problem, gotta keep the reports understandable or they won't be useful to anyone at all.


4. That is funny, lol.

A quote from her: There is something strange about today. Oh right, you haven't put your head into honey yet.


5. Excellent and consistant will the other reports I told you about.

I don't really see how it can cause any damage after all these tries. Though, this makes me wanna try out lemon lightening as well, maybe one day.


6. Honey lightening on your roots, lol.

Gotta keep the color even, you know.

I wonder if there would be any harm to the solution if one would mix it inside a blender? Has anyone tried that before?

[ktani]

The curse of getting bored one starts to look around for the stupidest piece of information.



After having experience how nice my hair can feel without the use of commercial hair chemicals, I don't really want to go back to them, not even for something like this. Maybe I'll just try with baking soda at some point, my hair didn't seem to get any damage from it when I tried it out few days ago. 1. Already the vinegar rinse helped a lot, maybe that is all I'll need in the end.



2. No problem, gotta keep the reports understandable or they won't be useful to anyone at all.



3. A quote from her: There is something strange about today. Oh right, you haven't put your head into honey yet.



4. I don't really see how it can cause any damage after all these tries. Though, this makes me wanna try out lemon lightening as well, maybe one day.



Gotta keep the color even, you know.

5. I wonder if there would be any harm to the solution if one would mix it inside a blender? Has anyone tried that before?

1. I understand your concerns. Baking soda is not my choice (because it is alkaline, although not very, about pH 8 ) and the trick to avoiding it being abrasive, is to fully dissolve it in hot to warm water.

2. Your reports are great! You just lost me temporarily, on the recipe details, which you corrected.

3. She has a wonderful sense of humour!

4. Lemon juice is a whole other thing. It can be very drying, not diluted properly and can make one sensitive to the sun, if it is not rinsed out thoroughly. It can be diluted 3 to 1 with conditioner (3 parts conditioner, 1 part lemon juice) but that is not an option for you , so just use water, well.

5. Stirring is fine but a blender can possibly help mix the spices better. I did an experiment with ground (powdered) cinnamon. It blends better with water, if the honey is added first. No one has reported using a blender. Another first for you, if you try it.

[ktani]

Lemon juice and honey do not play well together for lightening. The Vitamin C is oxidized by the peroxide in honey, on dilution and the result is less peroxide.

[Shikyo]

1. I understand your concerns. Baking soda is not my choice (because it is alkaline, although not very, about pH 8 ) and the trick to avoiding it being abrasive, is to fully dissolve it in hot to warm water.

I tried it before, it didn't seem to have any effect on my hair. It was a very diluted solution, though. I also rinsed it out as good as I could with water and then I rinsed it with vinegar. From what I saw there was no damage done to my hair.


2. Your reports are great! You just lost me temporarily, on the recipe details, which you corrected.

Losing someone even temporarily, makes the report bad(at least in my eyes). Better fix it(at least now I can edit my messages afterward, no need to rewrite the whole thing again.) as soon as possible.


3. She has a wonderful sense of humour!

That she has. I'm lucky to have found her.


4. Lemon juice is a whole other thing. It can be very drying, not diluted properly and can make one sensitive to the sun, if it is not rinsed out thoroughly. It can be diluted 3 to 1 with conditioner (3 parts conditioner, 1 part lemon juice) but that is not an option for you , so just use water, well.

That's how I understood it. It's also the main reason why I haven't tried it yet. First of all, I'll see how far I can get with just honey alone.


5. Stirring is fine but a blender can possibly help mix the spices better. I did an experiment with ground (powdered) cinnamon. It blends better with water, if the honey is added first. No one has reported using a blender. Another first for you, if you try it.

In that case, I shall be the first victim(like with many other things). I just like using the blender for about anything I can, it's great for mixing spices with liquids when I make a sauce. I thought it could do the same for honey treatment. I shall keep you updated on the information.


Lemon juice and honey do not play well together for lightening. The Vitamin C is oxidized by the peroxide in honey, on dilution and the result is less peroxide.

Don't worry, I wasn't planing on using them at the same time.

[ktani]

I tried it before, it didn't seem to have any effect on my hair. It was a very diluted solution, though. I also rinsed it out as good as I could with water and then I rinsed it with vinegar. From what I saw there was no damage done to my hair.



1. Losing someone even temporarily, makes the report bad(at least in my eyes). Better fix it(at least now I can edit my messages afterward, no need to rewrite the whole thing again.) as soon as possible.



2. That she has. I'm lucky to have found her.



That's how I understood it. It's also the main reason why I haven't tried it yet. First of all, I'll see how far I can get with just honey alone.



In that case, I shall be the first victim(like with many other things). I just like using the blender for about anything I can, it's great for mixing spices with liquids when I make a sauce. I thought it could do the same for honey treatment. I shall keep you updated on the information.

1. Not at all to me. I have not always been as detailed or as clear as I would like. Human, we are.

2. I am happy that you are happy. Good relationships should IMO, always be treasured!

Please update on the blender. Do not overduo though. Friction creates heat, although I doubt that there would be very much, in this case.

[ktani]

Shikyo

I look forward to your continuing reports!

[ktani]

Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Sokudo Ningyou, honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=627717&postcount=3851

[ktani]

Honey lightening on dark, dyed hair


Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

gallows gallery - dyed black hair over henna on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution and Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

ljkforu - on previously black dyed ends, hennaed hair, with tap water, ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455932&postcount=3335

ljkforu - more information on her honey lightening recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=433208&postcount=3270

ljkforu - feedback from those around her, in real life
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=437566&postcount=3282

[ljkforu]

1. I understand your concerns. Baking soda is not my choice (because it is alkaline, although not very, about pH 8 ) and the trick to avoiding it being abrasive, is to fully dissolve it in hot to warm water.

2. Your reports are great! You just lost me temporarily, on the recipe details, which you corrected.

3. She has a wonderful sense of humour!

4. Lemon juice is a whole other thing. It can be very drying, not diluted properly and can make one sensitive to the sun, if it is not rinsed out thoroughly. It can be diluted 3 to 1 with conditioner (3 parts conditioner, 1 part lemon juice) but that is not an option for you , so just use water, well.

5. Stirring is fine but a blender can possibly help mix the spices better. I did an experiment with ground (powdered) cinnamon. It blends better with water, if the honey is added first. No one has reported using a blender. Another first for you, if you try it.
I'm kind of a blenderaholic and have used it for honey lightening and SMTs I like things smooth and even -- never had a problem.

Update on the honey lightening as the months have gone on -- it permanently fixed my problem and left me with evenly colored hair that takes up henna beautifully. I'll take new pictures.

[ktani]

I'm kind of a blenderaholic and have used it for honey lightening and SMTs I like things smooth and even -- never had a problem.

Update on the honey lightening as the months have gone on -- it permanently fixed my problem and left me with evenly colored hair that takes up henna beautifully. I'll take new pictures.

Wonderful to hear. Thank you so much for the update and the blender news!

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Sokudo Ningyou, after 1 treatment of honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3851 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3851), - after her 3rd treatment, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=638349&postcount=3877.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

[ktani]

Recent honey lightening recipe and method innovations

Honey lightening to create hi-lights, by BranwenWolf

Honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506


The use of cardamom essential oil, by Fethenwen

After 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil, 1 tablespoon EVOO, 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Suggestions to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe outside of Finland where SAM honey is unavailable. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567)


A new method for applying a honey lightening treatment, by Shikyo

Honey lightening on a mix of virgin and previously dyed hair (previously dyed 3 years ago), recipe and first results, using various coverings, from a plastic bag to a swim cap, and apple cider vinegar, which darkened the hair, adding a red tint
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=651737&postcount=3901, new recipe and innovative new method of application- http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654025&postcount=3912, new method details -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654068&postcount=3914, complete method details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654116&postcount=3920

[ktani]

Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495) and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair in other threads on these boards, when accidental lightening has been reported to have occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

[pixiedoo]

I hope this is the right place for this post!

I currently have chemically dyed dark brown hair. My hair is approx 35% grey and my natural is hair colour is a medium brown (not as dark as the chemical dye). I have the roots dyed every 4-6 weeks with a permanent hair dye and have a semi-permanent puts through the length. I am 32 and have been dying my hair since I started to go grey at 21!! I have lost a considerable amount of hair recently due to illness but it is starting to grow back thicker and healthier thanks to a complete change in my hair care routine.

I have decided that I really would like to try and achieve a similar colour result to that of the chemical dye with a 2 step henna and indigo. I understand that it will have red undertones but I am quite happy with that. I have changed my hair care routine recently, I am now cone free, regularly oil and treat my hair with a lot more love and it is really happy and healthier looking than it has been in years. I want to do away with chemical dye completly as it is the only thing I now use that is damaging my hair.

My concern is that I have considerable dye build up on the ends/length of my hair and that when my roots come through they are lighter. My ends are a dark brown where as my new growth is usually a mid brown, so not a drastic difference but still noticable in daylight. I am worried that when I use the henna and indigo I will get a visible difference between the new hair growth and chemically dyed hair.

I have noticed that some people use Coloroops or Colorfix to remove their chemical dye before using henna or indigo so they don't get such a colour difference. I don't have access to these products as I am in the UK and I really don't want to put more chemicals on my hair.

I wondered if using honey would lighten my exisiting dyed hair in preparation for my henna/indigo application. Sorry for the length of this post but I am new to all this!! Any advice on this would be great:)

[ktani]

I hope this is the right place for this post!

I currently have chemically dyed dark brown hair. My hair is approx 35&#37; grey and my natural is hair colour is a medium brown (not as dark as the chemical dye). I have the roots dyed every 4-6 weeks with a permanent hair dye and have a semi-permanent puts through the length. I am 32 and have been dying my hair since I started to go grey at 21!! I have lost a considerable amount of hair recently due to illness but it is starting to grow back thicker and healthier thanks to a complete change in my hair care routine.

I have decided that I really would like to try and achieve a similar colour result to that of the chemical dye with a 2 step henna and indigo. I understand that it will have red undertones but I am quite happy with that. I have changed my hair care routine recently, I am now cone free, regularly oil and treat my hair with a lot more love and it is really happy and healthier looking than it has been in years. I want to do away with chemical dye completly as it is the only thing I now use that is damaging my hair.

My concern is that I have considerable dye build up on the ends/length of my hair and that when my roots come through they are lighter. My ends are a dark brown where as my new growth is usually a mid brown, so not a drastic difference but still noticable in daylight. I am worried that when I use the henna and indigo I will get a visible difference between the new hair growth and chemically dyed hair.

I have noticed that some people use Coloroops or Colorfix to remove their chemical dye before using henna or indigo so they don't get such a colour difference. I don't have access to these products as I am in the UK and I really don't want to put more chemicals on my hair.

I wondered if using honey would lighten my exisiting dyed hair in preparation for my henna/indigo application. Sorry for the length of this post but I am new to all this!! Any advice on this would be great:)

Wecome to LHC and Honey!

This is the right place to post. Honey lightening has been reported to work very well on dark dyed hair. Here are some reports on that. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=457007&postcount=3341) Here is the Successful Honeys list (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin), on which you will find honeys reported in the UK, to be good for honey lightening.

The first post of this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1) has links to posts to help you get started, and I am available to answer questions, any time. Please read through the links in the first post though, to give you an idea of how honey lightening works and methods.

[nowxisxforever]

I just wanted to say this is an awesome thread. I used it just this morning to give someone on Gaia more info on honey lightening. (Edit- I don't lighten my hair, but it is a very useful thread!)

[ktani]

I just wanted to say this is an awesome thread. I used it just this morning to give someone on Gaia more info on honey lightening. (Edit- I don't lighten my hair, but it is a very useful thread!)

Thank you!!!

[ktani]

Honey lightening and cassia (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332)

[pixiedoo]

Wecome to LHC and Honey!

This is the right place to post. Honey lightening has been reported to work very well on dark dyed hair. Here are some reports on that. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=457007&postcount=3341) Here is the Successful Honeys list (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin), on which you will find honeys reported in the UK, to be good for honey lightening.

The first post of this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1) has links to posts to help you get started, and I am available to answer questions, any time. Please read through the links in the first post though, to give you an idea of how honey lightening works and methods.

Ktani....thanks for your reply. I have read through the the first post in the thread and I went and bought myself some Gales Honey from the supermarket yesterday. I think I have figured out what to do!!

One quick question though if you don't mind.........how often can I do the honey lightening treatment on my hair?? I really want to try and remove/fade as much of the chemical dye colour as I can before I henna/indigo.
Thanks :)

[ktani]

Ktani....thanks for your reply. I have read through the the first post in the thread and I went and bought myself some Gales Honey from the supermarket yesterday. I think I have figured out what to do!!

One quick question though if you don't mind.........how often can I do the honey lightening treatment on my hair?? I really want to try and remove/fade as much of the chemical dye colour as I can before I henna/indigo.
Thanks :)

No worries about the question. You can honey lighten as often as you like. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=671140&postcount=3954)

[sweet*things]

A thought occurred to me, has anyone tried the honey solution with one of these caps to get more defined highlights?

http://www.sallybeauty.com/Frosting-and-Tipping-Caps/SLNCAR28,default,pd.html

ETA: I guess you'd have to wrap on top of the cap to keep it all moist, but it might help confine the solution to just the strands you want lightened.

[ktani]

A thought occurred to me, has anyone tried the honey solution with one of these caps to get more defined highlights?

http://www.sallybeauty.com/Frosting-and-Tipping-Caps/SLNCAR28,default,pd.html

ETA: I guess you'd have to wrap on top of the cap to keep it all moist, but it might help confine the solution to just the strands you want lightened.

Not that I know of, and you are right, you would need to wrap on top of it to keep the treatment wet, but it is a great idea for honey hi-lights.

Please update if you try this!

[ktani]

Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Also see Honey blends (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575).

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

Pure evoo has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382).

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

[ktani]

Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

[ktani]

Notes on EVOO (Extra Virgin Olive Oil) PV is short for Peroxide Value
"The PV is greatly reduced by the refining process used for most vegetable oils. Virgin olive oils are not exposed to such processes and the PVs permitted in these products are considerably higher. The IOOC and CAC standards permit extra-virgin olive oils to have PVs of up to 20 meq/kg, while pure olive oils, which by definition are blends of virgin and refined olive oils, must have PVs below 10 meq/kg. (http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm)"

In other words, the peroxide value of a pure evoo is going to be higher than that of a blend of evoo and olive oil, which would be about that of coconut oil.

Here is one source for cardamom essential oil and they sell samples, as well as provide information. (http://www.100pureessentialoils.com/site/1562898/page/710050)

[pixiedoo]

No worries about the question. You can honey lighten as often as you like. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=671140&postcount=3954)

Thanks Ktani. I am planning to do my first honey lightening treatment tomorrow so I will let you know how it goes :)

[ktani]

I came across this information, quite by accident the other day. It may explain why distilled water works better than the old recipes with conditioner, for honey lightening, in addition to the lack of most minerals, ingredients that can interfere with lightening, water content, and pH, the amount of sodium present. No levels listed but to my surprise, there is sodium in distilled water. There is actually a sodium free version of distilled water on the market (http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Gastroenterology/only-distilled-water-without-sodium-doesnt-upset-my-stomach-Any-ideas-why/show/9221).
Sodium is in tap water too (http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1525/eb1525.html)and levels vary.

"Honey itself does not have the right conditions for this reaction to occur. .... For the enzyme to break glucose down into hydrogen peroxide, a certain amount of sodium most be present. .... Honey alone does not contain enough sodium to make this happen. .... skin and body fluids have relatively high pH and sodium levels. When honey comes in contact with skin or an open wound .... it begins to break down the glucose, releasing hydrogen peroxide." (http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=15767826)

Other research I have read names the optimal pH for a honey to produce peroxide in solution, as pH 6.

[ktani]

Honey and free radicals

This is interesting. They tested different honeys and how they "quenched" free radicals. Free radicals are stated in other research to be responsible for most of the hair damage that occurs from conventional hair colouring and lightening products. Even a honey that generated free radicals quenched them after 1 hour. Gale's honey quenched free radicals after only 5 minutes. (http://jac.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/58/4/773)

[ktani]

A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html). 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. Another way to use the new dilution is to just use tablespoons, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc. It works out to be the same as calculating by weight.

According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin).
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369) is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173).

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil. Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons. Information on ground cinnamon can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314). Information on ground cardamom can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373). Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon. None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883) (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Store (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452) your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90% water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out. If there is honey residue, shampoo is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of some types of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. An updated post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712) of honey lightening innovations.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035).

12. This (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095) is a Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.

[ktani]

The colours of honey (http://www.mieliditalia.it/colori/inglese/home.htm)

Note: not all darker honeys have higher peroxide values, e.g. chestnut honey and not all honeys are represented here.
Honey, regardless of its colour, has not been reported to add colour to hair when used in a honey lightening recipe.

[lundmir]

I have a problem, how do I get it completely off my hair? It feels horrible and I can't finger comb it without cringing...

[ktani]

I have a problem, how do I get it completely off my hair? It feels horrible and I can't finger comb it without cringing...

I do not know what recipe you used but no matter. I would try shampoo, followed by a vinegar rinse. It sounds like honey residue.

[BranwenWolf]

I was telling my mom about honey lightening and she looked at me like I sprouted another head.:D

Confounding your parents = extra benefit of honey!

[ktani]

I was telling my mom about honey lightening and she looked at me like I sprouted another head.:D

Confounding your parents = extra benefit of honey!

LOL, show her this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712).

[lundmir]

I do not know what recipe you used but no matter. I would try shampoo, followed by a vinegar rinse. It sounds like honey residue.
Thank you, I hope it helps. I used cinammon, distilled water and honey. At least it did give me a lovely color!
And the smell is amazing too...

[ktani]

Thank you, I hope it helps. I used cinammon, distilled water and honey. At least it did give me a lovely color!

Great news on that at least. Please update. It may take more than one shampoo but try one only to start with and condition after the vinegar rinse.

[SimplyViki]

I was telling my mom about honey lightening and she looked at me like I sprouted another head.:D

Confounding your parents = extra benefit of honey!

:lol:
I was just coming here to post that my mom must be lurking here, because I told her recently about honey and henna and some such things (she's got long hair, too, longer than mine but I have a mental block as to how long exactly - tailbone? Hip?) and she e-mailed me today to let me know she'd done an overnight honey treatment after poking about the "long hair website" a bit and getting some basic ideas. :D I'll reel her in here yet.

[ktani]

:lol:
I was just coming here to post that my mom must be lurking here, because I told her recently about honey and henna and some such things (she's got long hair, too, longer than mine but I have a mental block as to how long exactly - tailbone? Hip?) and she e-mailed me today to let me know she'd done an overnight honey treatment after poking about the "long hair website" a bit and getting some basic ideas. :D I'll reel her in here yet.

That is so cool! Thanks for sharing.

[SimplyViki]

Come on Mom, delurk - I see you hanging out on the thread! I finally found your profile. :D

[maryann]

:lol:
I was just coming here to post that my mom must be lurking here, because I told her recently about honey and henna and some such things (she's got long hair, too, longer than mine but I have a mental block as to how long exactly - tailbone? Hip?) and she e-mailed me today to let me know she'd done an overnight honey treatment after poking about the "long hair website" a bit and getting some basic ideas. :D I'll reel her in here yet.
This is SimplyViki's mom; yes, I honeyed my hair after SimplyViki explained it and I came over here to read some of the information. I did another treatment today.

When SimplyViki has the time she and I will probably do some experimenting with cassia and/or henna too.

Thanks everyone for all the helpful hints.

[maryann]

Come on Mom, delurk - I see you hanging out on the thread! I finally found your profile. :D
Thanks SimplyViki. I'm here :-)

[SimplyViki]

Thanks SimplyViki. I'm here :-)
Yay! :joy:

[ktani]

Thanks SimplyViki. I'm here :-)

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

I am so glad that you have found the thread helpful and that you have also enjoyed doing the treatment.

[sweet*things]

I tried the honey treatment twice and got some definite results. The pictures show a more dramatic change than in real life, it's not nearly as noticeable in person.

1st Treatment - 6oz. tap water and 2 Tbs. Acme generic bear honey.
2nd Treatment - 6oz. tap water, 2 Tbs. Trader Joe's 100% Mesquite honey, plus 1 teaspoon each ground cinnamon and cardamom.

Before:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3436&pictureid=44736

After 1st Treatment:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3436&pictureid=44737

After 2nd Treatment:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3436&pictureid=44942

My husband says it actually looks darker now, but I think that's because it's now all one color. In the before picture you can see some natural highlights, which now seem to be gone.:( If I do it again, I'm probably going to attempt to create highlights.

My hair seems to be in good condition. It looks drier in the last photo because I didn't apply any leave-ins after washing the honey out, but it feels moist and undamaged.

[ktani]

I tried the honey treatment twice and got some definite results. The pictures show a more dramatic change than in real life, it's not nearly as noticeable in person.

1st Treatment - 6oz. tap water and 2 Tbs. Acme generic bear honey.
2nd Treatment - 6oz. tap water, 2 Tbs. Trader Joe's 100&#37; Mesquite honey, plus 1 teaspoon each ground cinnamon and cardamom.

Before:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3436&pictureid=44736

After 1st Treatment:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3436&pictureid=44737

After 2nd Treatment:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=3436&pictureid=44942

My husband says it actually looks darker now, but I think that's because it's now all one color. In the before picture you can see some natural highlights, which now seem to be gone.:( If I do it again, I'm probably going to attempt to create highlights.

My hair seems to be in good condition. It looks drier in the last photo because I didn't apply any leave-ins after washing the honey out, but it feels moist and undamaged.

Thank you so much for the report and pictures and an explanation of the lighting and results.

Yes, you can use honey lightening to create hi-lights. I think that is a very cool idea and it has been done. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712)

Thank you as well for the information on the condition of your hair. Please update as you go.

[lundmir]

I just washed my hair and it ended up beautiful. I'll post my pictures and results as soon as my batteries are charged. I'll definitely repeat this treatment.

[ktani]

I just washed my hair and it ended up beautiful. I'll post my pictures and results as soon as my batteries are charged. I'll definitely repeat this treatment.

Fantastic!! I am happy for you.

When you do post pics could you please also give the exact recipes you used with proportions (how much honey to how much distilled water and spices), to help others. and what you did (shampooing I presume) to get the honey out of your hair. Did you need vinegar too?

I am pleased for you as well, that the condition of your hair sounds good as well.

[lundmir]

I used 3 tbsp honey and 18 tbsp tap water, plus 2 tbsp ground cinnamon. My honey is a local one my mom got from a friend, organic and most likely comes from mezquite but I'm not sure about that, sorry.

My hair has been dyed bright red, then hennaed, then I applied a semi permanent dye. I did let my roots grow a bit, it is virgin hennaed hair.

Here's the color I started with, in natural light from a cloudy day on a window http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4238/858f7f42375639.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/858f7f42375639) And with flash http://thumbnails3.imagebam.com/4238/f1069142375640.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f1069142375640) And this is my virgin hair http://thumbnails13.imagebam.com/4238/dad83d42375641.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/dad83d42375641)

Here are the roots, with flash http://thumbnails.imagebam.com/4238/5b3a0e42375635.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/5b3a0e42375635)

No flash under yellow light http://thumbnails12.imagebam.com/4238/e3901442375644.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e3901442375644) And under white light http://thumbnails3.imagebam.com/4238/694ae142375642.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/694ae142375642) lenght under same light http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4238/a2b6e142375643.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a2b6e142375643)

Outside on a cloudy day http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4238/04e2a442375637.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/04e2a442375637) and the lenght http://thumbnails12.imagebam.com/4238/a8663542375638.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a8663542375638)

With light coming from a window http://thumbnails19.imagebam.com/4238/7de41a42375636.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/7de41a42375636)

I'm actually quite surprised it ended up so bright. To remove it all, I did a CO wash first, then waited 2 days, and washed with diluted shampoo and conditioner. I did not need vinegar at all.

[ktani]

I used 3 tbsp honey and 18 tbsp tap water, plus 2 tbsp ground cinnamon. My honey is a local one my mom got from a friend, organic and most likely comes from mezquite but I'm not sure about that, sorry.

My hair has been dyed bright red, then hennaed, then I applied a semi permanent dye. I did let my roots grow a bit, it is virgin hennaed hair.

Here's the color I started with, in natural light from a cloudy day on a window http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4238/858f7f42375639.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/858f7f42375639) And with flash http://thumbnails3.imagebam.com/4238/f1069142375640.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/f1069142375640) And this is my virgin hair http://thumbnails13.imagebam.com/4238/dad83d42375641.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/dad83d42375641)

Here are the roots, with flash http://thumbnails.imagebam.com/4238/5b3a0e42375635.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/5b3a0e42375635)

No flash under yellow light http://thumbnails12.imagebam.com/4238/e3901442375644.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/e3901442375644) And under white light http://thumbnails3.imagebam.com/4238/694ae142375642.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/694ae142375642) lenght under same light http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4238/a2b6e142375643.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a2b6e142375643)

Outside on a cloudy day http://thumbnails16.imagebam.com/4238/04e2a442375637.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/04e2a442375637) and the lenght http://thumbnails12.imagebam.com/4238/a8663542375638.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/a8663542375638)

With light coming from a window http://thumbnails19.imagebam.com/4238/7de41a42375636.gif (http://www.imagebam.com/image/7de41a42375636)

I'm actually quite surprised it ended up so bright. To remove it all, I did a CO wash first, then waited 2 days, and washed with diluted shampoo and conditioner. I did not need vinegar at all.

WOW! That is a beautiful colour. People pay money to get hair that colour, lol. You did a wonderful job on the picture details on lighting too and the recipe and your washing out details. Thank you so much!

How long did you leave the treatment on your hair and what did you cover it with? Please.

[lundmir]

Thank you!!!
I was supposed to leave it for an hour but it probably ended up in my head for 2.5 hours since a friend visited me and I couldn't leave him lol. Then I washed for the first time and couldn't get it off, I smelled like a bakery for the next two days, which is when I washed for the second time.
I covered my head with a grocery bag, that's it, nothing fancy!

I have to add that I tried the treatment on my face and found out it is wonderful for exfoliating, and tastes great!

[ktani]

Thank you!!!
I was supposed to leave it for an hour but it probably ended up in my head for 2.5 hours since a friend visited me and I couldn't leave him lol. Then I washed for the first time and couldn't get it off, I smelled like a bakery for the next two days, which is when I washed for the second time.
I covered my head with a grocery bag, that's it, nothing fancy!

I have to add that I tried the treatment on my face and found out it is wonderful for exfoliating, and tastes great!

Well, you did a great job and yes, lol, the new recipes are all edible, lol. Good to know that the recipe made a great facial. I will add your report posts to the dark, dyed hair post and the new dilution post and the hennaed hair post as well.

[ktani]

Done, in all 3 posts!

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906)

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed and henndigoed hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654115&postcount=3919)

Pictures of honey lightening on dark, dyed hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=457007&postcount=3341)

[ktani]

Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

[ktani]

People here have reported some of the internal use side effects of coumarins, from the topical use of henna and possibly indigo. I pulled this together from several previous posts of mine and new researched information, to make one complete post.

Coumarins

2008
"According to literature search, the side effects “nausea, vomits, headache and weakness” seem to refer to coumarin overdose" (http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human/hmpc/meliloti_herba/22082808en.pdf)

Coumarin type drugs side effects, oral
Loss of appetite, nausea, diarrhea (http://www.medicinenet.com/coumarin-type_drugs-oral/article.htm) or blurred vision may occur at first as your body adjusts to the medication. Inform your doctor if you experience: unusual bleeding or bruising, blood in the urine or stools, severe headache (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=20628). May cause urine to turn orange-red in color. This is not harmful and will disappear when the medication is stopped. .... unlikely event an allergic reaction to this drug, seek medical attention immediately. Symptoms of an allergic reaction include: rash (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=1992), itching, swelling, dizziness, trouble breathing. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist."
http://www.medicinenet.com/coumarin-type_drugs-oral/article.htm


"Insomnia .... upset stomach, diarrhea, dizziness .... all been reported with taking large amounts of Coumarin."
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drugs/altmed/altmed-mono.aspx?contentFileName=ame0274.xml&contentName=Coumarin&contentId=434



With coumarins, it is your total intake that needs to be considered. They can damage the liver but the good news is that the effect is reversible.
2007
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf



Cassia cinnamon
"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamo...mon_and_cassia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon#Cinnamon_and_cassia)

How to distinguish between cassia cinnamon, and true cinnamon (which has a neglible coumarin content)
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm



2007
"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569 (http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569)



2008
"Coumarin ... found in several plants, including beans, lavender, liquorice, strawberries, apricots, cherries, cinnamon, and sweet clover. Coumarin .... responsible for the sweet smell of new mown hay."
http://www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fi61.htm

Fenugreek
"Adverse Reactions
Common: .... flatulence, diarrhea, and other GI symptoms.
Reported: Bleeding, bruising, hypoglycemia. Repeated topical use can cause skin sensitization. Inhalation of the powder can cause asthma and allergic symptoms."
Anticoagulants: Fenugreek may potentiate effects due to coumarin content."
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69218.cfm

2007
Chamomile
".... Chamomile may increase anticoagulant effects and inhibit platelets due to coumarin content"
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69174.cfm

Coumarins can also be found in henna and indigo (a special thank you to ljkforu for alerting me to this last fact). HennaSooq was the first to have the information that henna contains coumarins so upfront on her website, http://www.hennasooq.com/whatishenna.shtml, as far as I know, but at the time, it was not noted or commented on, other than mellie finding and posting that here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=379790&postcount=15 and it was not persued then because no one had reported the side effects mentioned yet, from either henna or indigo use.

2007
Indigo (indigo also contains saponins)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gMwLwbUwtfkC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=indigofera+tinctoria+constituents&source=bl&ots=_zBYG5IXTP&sig=ypR7sCwwN2KlXlhK5Oe3qfA8ZAU&hl=en&ei=lz89SqXVII3KM-jHgbsO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

2005
Henna
" .... natural constituents of Lawsonia inermis are essential oils, 1,4-naphthoquinone, tannins, gallic acid, flavonoids, lipids, sugars, triacontyl tridecanoate, mannitol, xanthones, coumarins (5-alkyloxy 7-hydroxycoumarin), 2-3% resins, 5-10% tannic ingredients and up to 2% Lawsone (2-hydroxy-1,4-naphthoquinone) ...."
http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_sccp/docs/sccp_o_034.pdf

[ktani]

I will be concentrating on school work projects and enjoying my school break over the next 2.5 weeks but I will still be checking in on threads.

I will still be available to reply to questions, if there are any, and record and reply to reports.

[Madame J]

So this is called the "Honey thread" and not the "Honey lightening thread," so I'm going to hope I'm asking this in the right place:

I'm considering a switch to a new shampoo bar that one of the ladies on the Shampoo Bar Thread says can be very drying and she recommends a conditioner. Well, one of the reasons I like 'poo bars is for the low-waste aspect, so I'm hesitant to add an additional conditioner (right now I'm good with dilute ACV and oiling). Would adding honey to my ACV rinse 1.) add moisturizing benefits due to the humectant properties of honey, and 2.) lighten my hair? I do rinse after my ACV rinse, often immediately.

I know heating the honey destroys its lightening properties, but would hot tap water be hot enough? I don't have a microwave. It would be great if this was an option, in case I do end up with dry hair from the soap.

[ktani]

So this is called the "Honey thread" and not the "Honey lightening thread," so I'm going to hope I'm asking this in the right place:

I'm considering a switch to a new shampoo bar that one of the ladies on the Shampoo Bar Thread says can be very drying and she recommends a conditioner. Well, one of the reasons I like 'poo bars is for the low-waste aspect, so I'm hesitant to add an additional conditioner (right now I'm good with dilute ACV and oiling). Would adding honey to my ACV rinse 1.) add moisturizing benefits due to the humectant properties of honey, and 2.) lighten my hair? I do rinse after my ACV rinse, often immediately.

I know heating the honey destroys its lightening properties, but would hot tap water be hot enough? I don't have a microwave. It would be great if this was an option, in case I do end up with dry hair from the soap.

It is the right thread, lol.

I think that you would be better off doing a honey and water rinse then an acv rinse to deal with any honey residue. As a rinse, meaning it is not left on the hair any appreciable length of time, honey would not lighten your hair but may add some moisture.

Hot water would not be adequate to completely destroy the enzyme that generates peroxide, depending on how much heat it produced and how long the honey was exposed to it. It can negatively affect it though.

[Madame J]

I just actually read through the Western Herbs article and found out that Red Clover is a conditioning herb, so I could make Red Clover tea with honey in it and rinse with that before ACV. Or perhaps just the tea with some vinegar splashed in would be sufficient. We buy Red Clover tea as a decongestant anyway, and I always have honey on hand, so it would be simple and thrifty!

[ktani]

I just actually read through the Western Herbs article and found out that Red Clover is a conditioning herb, so I could make Red Clover tea with honey in it and rinse with that before ACV. Or perhaps just the tea with some vinegar splashed in would be sufficient. We buy Red Clover tea as a decongestant anyway, and I always have honey on hand, so it would be simple and thrifty!

Red clover has no adverse reactions listed in the link in this sentence from Sloan-Kettering but it contains both coumarins (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=403799&postcount=3110) and it has estrogenic actions (http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69350.cfm) that may interact with certain medications and is not advised for people with certain medical histories.

"Pregnancy/Lactation The estrogenic effects of red clover are well documented and may have an effect on the fetus. Use is contraindicated. ....
Interactions An additive effect may occur if the phytoestrogens of red clover are taken with hormonal therapies; avoid concurrent use with oral contraceptives, estrogen, or progesterone therapies. " (http://www.drugs.com/npp/red-clover.html)

Hormones can be and are absorbed through the skin. Hormone patches, creams etc. are becoming more popular.

[ktani]

Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)." (http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html)

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. " (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust." (http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm)

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used " (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening

On dark hair - henna and henndigo

Maluhia and Viviane - from an older Honey thread with the old dilution recipes, Maluhia honey lightened chemical dye and Vivianne, on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

mellie - from an older Honey thread - on henndigoed hair (baq henna used once or twice) - no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=57442&postcount=224

mellie - pictures on multiple layers of Rainbow Dark Brown Henna - no lemon, no peroxide boosters and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, ground cinnamon and no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119360&postcount=867

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 3 treatments - 1 with the new dilution, with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176427&postcount=1583

LadyPolaris - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176471&postcount=1586

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - 2 with the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Sokudo Ningyou, after 1 treatment of honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=627717&postcount=3851, - after her 3rd treatment, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=638349&postcount=3877

lundmir, after 1 treatment, of honey, distilled water and ground cinnamon, on previously dyed and henned hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681359&postcount=3989, method and washing out details, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681389&postcount=3991

[Madame J]

Red clover has no adverse reactions listed in the link in this sentence from Sloan-Kettering but it contains both coumarins (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=403799&postcount=3110) and it has estrogenic actions (http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69350.cfm) that may interact with certain medications and is not advised for people with certain medical histories.

"Pregnancy/Lactation The estrogenic effects of red clover are well documented and may have an effect on the fetus. Use is contraindicated. ....
Interactions An additive effect may occur if the phytoestrogens of red clover are taken with hormonal therapies; avoid concurrent use with oral contraceptives, estrogen, or progesterone therapies. " (http://www.drugs.com/npp/red-clover.html)

Hormones can be and are absorbed through the skin. Hormone patches, creams etc. are becoming more popular.

Yikes. I guess maybe I should quit using it while I'm on the pill then!

Would pouring boiling water over honey kill the lightening? You recommend nuking it for a minute, but would letting it sit in boiling water until it cooled have a similar effect? As of right now, I'm not experiencing any dryness from the shampoo bar with just an ACV rinse, but if my hair gets crunchy in the future, I'll probably want to try a honey rinse.

Thanks for all your help and input!

[ktani]

1.Yikes. I guess maybe I should quit using it while I'm on the pill then!

2. Would pouring boiling water over honey kill the lightening? You recommend nuking it for a minute, but would letting it sit in boiling water until it cooled have a similar effect? As of right now, I'm not experiencing any dryness from the shampoo bar with just an ACV rinse, but if my hair gets crunchy in the future, I'll probably want to try a honey rinse.

Thanks for all your help and input!

You are most welcome!

1. It depends on how often you are drinking the red clover tea. Once in a while for a specific purpose should not be a problem. The problem as stated would IMO, be using large quantities for cosmetic purposes frequently, or drinking it regularly.

2. Boiled water can negatively affect the peroxide level but if you want to be sure of no possibility of lightening with honey, microwave it for 30 seconds, to under 1 minute.

As a rinse, honey would not be on your hair long enough to affect colour and even if you left it in it, should not affect colour that much, depending on your dilution and how fast your hair dries. For a rinse you should not need to microwave it, provided you do not leave the rinse on your hair wet, for longer than a few minutes and rinse it right out.

[ktani]

A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html). 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. Another way to use the new dilution is to just use tablespoons, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc. It works out to be the same as calculating by weight.

According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin).
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369) is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173).

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil. Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons. Information on ground cinnamon can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314). Information on ground cardamom can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373). Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon. None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883) (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Store (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452) your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90% water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out. If there is honey residue, shampoo is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of some types of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. An updated post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578074&postcount=3712) of honey lightening innovations.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035).

12. This (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095) is a Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.

[ktani]

With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

[ktani]

Honey lightening on dark, dyed hair


Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

gallows gallery - dyed black hair over henna on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution and Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

ljkforu - on previously black dyed ends, hennaed hair, with tap water, ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455932&postcount=3335

ljkforu - more information on her honey lightening recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=433208&postcount=3270

ljkforu - feedback from those around her, in real life
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=437566&postcount=3282

lundmir, after 1 treatment, of honey, distilled water and ground cinnamon, on previously dyed and henned hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681359&postcount=3989, method and washing out details, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681389&postcount=3991

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

BranwenWolf - honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506

ShaSha, after a 2nd treatment, with just honey and tap water (the first was honey, tap water and cassia but there are no pictures)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=527243&postcount=3523

recipe and method details for the 2nd treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528545&postcount=3542

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

[ktani]

Over the course of my over 4 years on these boards, I have received and written some "colourful" pms and emails. Some have been others venting, or me doing the same, or both of us commiserating over issues, threads etc. Some have been more personal. People have confided in me.

I know that sometimes there have been misunderstandings on something written. Peace has been made with apologies and geniuine, heartfelt dialogue, when this has occurred. Sometimes there has been a clashing or disagreement on issues and a parting of the ways has resulted.

It has not and will never occur to me, to comment on any of that correspondance, on any public or semi-public parts of these boards, in the participation of vicious gossip, or to indirectly malign someone with thinly veiled comments, or for any other reason, with the one exception of a recent statement I made, to take a stand, that I purposely kept vague enough, so that only those directly involved, would know who they are. I find the thought and action of doing otherwise, unconscionable.

[klcqtee]

Out of curiosity, do you think that honey could help pull red chemical dye from my hair? Every time I wash, it always comes out a bit, leaving the water pink. Any idea if this would help quicken the process?

[ktani]

Out of curiosity, do you think that honey could help pull red chemical dye from my hair? Every time I wash, it always comes out a bit, leaving the water pink. Any idea if this would help quicken the process?

Red chemical dye is known to fade faster than most other colours. It should fade on its own, with just regular washing and conditioning. Are you trying to lighten or just fade the colour a bit? Honey added to baby shampoo is reported to help remove excess dye.

Honey lightening can lighten dyed hair as well as virgin and hennaed hair.

[klcqtee]

I don't need it lightened (it's basically the same tone, just from brown to red, no darker or lighter) I'm just really looking for the dye to come out.

The reason I ask is because it seemed that when I honey lightened over my henna (a while back) it seemed to leech out a lot of the red, and left me back at my natural mousy brown/blonde instead of auburn. May not be true, but it did seem that way.

[ktani]

I don't need it lightened (it's basically the same tone, just from brown to red, no darker or lighter) I'm just really looking for the dye to come out.

The reason I ask is because it seemed that when I honey lightened over my henna (a while back) it seemed to leech out a lot of the red, and left me back at my natural mousy brown/blonde instead of auburn. May not be true, but it did seem that way.

Its been a while, so I will try to remember (and check) on the order hair colour lightens in general.

Black and dark brown to brown to red/gold to gold to yellow.

Henna leaching can be unbound henna but honey lightening can lighten hennaed hair.

[klcqtee]

I was not using BAQ henna, I was using box stuff from my local whole foods market. This could explain why the Henna came out.

Thank you for your help, by the way.

[ktani]

I was not using BAQ henna, I was using box stuff from my local whole foods market. This could explain why the Henna came out.

Thank you for your help, by the way.

Could be. And you are most welcome!

[bakertwins2004]

I did my first Honey treatment last night and I am in love. I am gonna do another in a week or so. Is that to soon? Should I spread them out to avoid damage?

[ktani]

I did my first Honey treatment last night and I am in love. I am gonna do another in a week or so. Is that to soon? Should I spread them out to avoid damage?

No need. You can honey lighten (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=287574&postcount=2323)? as often as you like. Not sure if you mean lighten but it is the same for conditioning and lightening in any case.

[ktani]

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Sokudo Ningyou, after 1 treatment of honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3851 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=3851), - after her 3rd treatment, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=638349&postcount=3877.

lundmir, after 1 treatment, of honey, distilled water and ground cinnamon, on previously dyed and henned hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681359&postcount=3989, method and washing out details, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681389&postcount=3991



Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

[ktani]

The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=274753&postcount=2243) Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this. The honey lightening spices, ground or powdered cinnamon and cardamom are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

Less of the spices, used with the new dilution and distilled water, have been reported to yield better results, than more of the spices, at lower dilutions, with distilled water.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

[ktani]

The colours of honey (http://www.mieliditalia.it/colori/inglese/home.htm)

Note: Not all darker honeys have higher peroxide values, e.g. chestnut honey and not all honeys are represented here.
Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.
Honey, regardless of its colour, has not been reported to add colour to hair when used in a honey lightening recipe.

[ktani]

A natural antibiotic in human sweat! (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=30107) In a lab, anyways.

[ktani]

Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258)

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.