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BranwenWolf
March 30th, 2009, 09:02 PM
BranwenWolf, your hair is beautiful. I would just keep up with the subtle honey lightenings. Don't fry your hair (Like I did).

I'm not a big fan of red hair and yours is just gorgeous on you. It is just such a lovely and complimentary color for you, IMHO.

I hope you feel that this is a compliment :D

Thank you. :D
I really do love it and may henna in the future because it makes me sad when it fades out, and I'm done with chemicals for the most part.

Today after I did some braid work I noticed the highlights more, I really liked the way this worked!

ktani- if coconut oil can be added to honey recipes and such I gather it blends easier with water than, um, oil? (does this make any sense?)

ktani
March 30th, 2009, 09:34 PM
Thank you. :D
I really do love it and may henna in the future because it makes me sad when it fades out, and I'm done with chemicals for the most part.

Today after I did some braid work I noticed the highlights more, I really liked the way this worked!

ktani- if coconut oil can be added to honey recipes and such I gather it blends easier with water than, um, oil? (does this make any sense?)

That is great about the hi-lights. I am so pleased that you are happy with them.

It mixes with the honey and water. I have never had anyone report that either of the honey lightening booster oils, evoo and coconut oil, were a problem in a recipe mix, in the amount used, 1 tablespoon or less in total, being the usual amount. The oils like the spices, contribute extra peroxide to a recipe, when added to a mix (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370).

ljkforu
March 31st, 2009, 12:27 AM
I see the problem here. When you add coconut oil to honey lightening in our cold climate it is clotted and doesn't melt. Since you can't heat the honey you have a "honey bear" full of white globs :)

There is 70 degree liquid coconut oil, but ktani I used regular and didn't complain, but it was very solid and required the heat of my scalp to join the mix. What should we do??? Everyone is trying to be polite but not clear :D

Fethenwen
March 31st, 2009, 05:58 AM
Thank you for the update! I am glad that you are so pleased with your results.

I am a little confused as to why you massaged the coconut oil into your hair before applying the treatment. You can just add some (about a tablespoon or less, especially if you are using evoo), directly into the recipe. If it is because of the peroxide thread, that is about conventional peroxide use. You can read more about the idea of a preteatment for that here, in the first post of that thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=233176&postcount=1). Honey lightening peroxide has not been reported to damage hair to date, no matter how many times honey lightening has been done, or how long (in hours), a recipe has been left on the hair.

Please continue to update. I look forward to your pictures!
Oh, I thought that there should be coconut added in the hair one hour before application, because of eventual peroxide damage :p did not really read these instructions clearly enough. I read them again today and noticed that it says as you said (many times) that honey lightening does NOT damage hair. And I also thought that maybe it would boost the peroxide in the honey, which it does. But I should have left it out, because too much coconut oil is makes my hair oily for days. And the honey seems to also add some oily look.
I tried to shampoo my hair twice this morning, but my hair is still looks very oily and is slippery, it's incredibly soft and shiny but also sticks flat on my head and looks awful. On top of that we had some sort of tv crew filming in my school about our projects today, fortunately I didn't have to participate being on the scene :p
But this incident did not put me off the honey lightening method. It obviously is very nutritive and softening for hair, so I will do this a few times more to get more lighter result.

ktani
March 31st, 2009, 06:13 AM
I see the problem here. When you add coconut oil to honey lightening in our cold climate it is clotted and doesn't melt. Since you can't heat the honey you have a "honey bear" full of white globs :)

There is 70 degree liquid coconut oil, but ktani I used regular and didn't complain, but it was very solid and required the heat of my scalp to join the mix. What should we do??? Everyone is trying to be polite but not clear :D

This is the first I have heard of this being a problem. Body heat worked to melt the oil for you, and you did get results that pleased you, so it is not a problem that way. You can just continue to use coconut oil the way you have been doing, no worries. EVOO, which tends to used more often for honey lightening, also has a higher peroxide value and may be a better choice for you.

ktani
March 31st, 2009, 06:21 AM
Oh, I thought that there should be coconut added in the hair one hour before application, because of eventual peroxide damage :p did not really read these instructions clearly enough. I read them again today and noticed that it says as you said (many times) that honey lightening does NOT damage hair. And I also thought that maybe it would boost the peroxide in the honey, which it does. But I should have left it out, because too much coconut oil is makes my hair oily for days. And the honey seems to also add some oily look.
I tried to shampoo my hair twice this morning, but my hair is still looks very oily and is slippery, it's incredibly soft and shiny but also sticks flat on my head and looks awful. On top of that we had some sort of tv crew filming in my school about our projects today, fortunately I didn't have to participate being on the scene :p
But this incident did not put me off the honey lightening method. It obviously is very nutritive and softening for hair, so I will do this a few times more to get more lighter result.

No worries. I had a feeling that you were confusing the 2 threads. I am glad for you at least, that you hair is soft and shiny.

Too much oil can be a problem to wash out of the hair. You can just use less oil, or wash out the treatment with conditioner, a CO, which has been reported to take excess oil out of the hair better than shampoo, and with much less effort (coneless conditioner is best for this).

ktani
March 31st, 2009, 06:44 AM
Coconut oil chelates more free iron and copper than evoo and is the oil of choice, along with argan oil, for a pretreatment before conventional hair colouring or lightening.

For honey lightening, the honey itself chelates free iron and evoo can chelate some iron an copper too. It is not necessary to use coconut oil only for honey lightening. Honey lightening with either oil used has not been reported to damage hair, even previously damaged hair, to date. Honey lightening with no oil added has not been reported to damage hair, even previously damaged hair, to date. The honey itself, offers sufficient protection for the hair.

The spices as well, contain the protective flavonoids. There is no recommended honey lightening recipe, that requires a protective pretreatment

Adding conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended and a coconut oil pretreatment is advised, in that case.

ktani
March 31st, 2009, 08:04 AM
When to Pretreat and the booster oils

Honey lightening

No pretreatment of any kind is necessary before honey lightening.

Of the 2 booster oils (evoo and coconut oil), evoo has a higher peroxide level, (as long as it is pure evoo and not a mix of evoo and olive oil).

Evoo will mix into a recipe better than coconut oil and either oil should only be used at room temperature. Body heat will melt the coconut oil used in a mix, when the treatment is applied to the hair.

A CO (coneless conditioner, preferrably) has been reported to remove a too oily honey lightening treatment, more easily than shampoo.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

Conventional lightening chemicals

Yes, for conventional hair colouring or lightening, or adding conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe, a pretreatment with either coconut oil or coconut and argan oils (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495)is recommended, to help prevent damage to hair.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

ktani
March 31st, 2009, 12:32 PM
I have redone the first post of this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1), to make it more user friendly.

ShaSha
March 31st, 2009, 03:29 PM
I did another honey treatment today, just out of curiosity... and the result is again a lot lighter.

I tried to take some photos, but it did not work out. I found it almost impossible to get the same light. Probably the best thing would be to take any photos at night when there is no outside light.

Anyway, (not sure if I can link in this forum) this was my hair before the honey today: http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss103/ShashaLhc/090331_1500ed.jpg
Hair was not washed, and there was daylight from a window, but photo was taken indoors.

The end result is in my avatar, but there is another photo
http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss103/ShashaLhc/090331_2100ed.jpg
Taken in the same place, different angle, under the same lamp, but there was no daylight anymore and the photo was taken from a mirror, so a lot different thing from the "before" photo.
So those photos are not really good as evidence :D But I posted those since there might not be any before-after photos. I'm going to be really careful with honey. :eek:

I don't want any lighter hair, I do not want to deal with dark roots, so probably I will be looking for ways to condition with honey and no color changes at all.

ktani
March 31st, 2009, 03:53 PM
I did another honey treatment today, just out of curiosity... and the result is again a lot lighter.

I tried to take some photos, but it did not work out. I found it almost impossible to get the same light. Probably the best thing would be to take any photos at night when there is no outside light.

Anyway, (not sure if I can link in this forum) this was my hair before the honey today: http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss103/ShashaLhc/090331_1500ed.jpg
Hair was not washed, and there was daylight from a window, but photo was taken indoors.

The end result is in my avatar, but there is another photo
http://i566.photobucket.com/albums/ss103/ShashaLhc/090331_2100ed.jpg
Taken in the same place, different angle, under the same lamp, but there was no daylight anymore and the photo was taken from a mirror, so a lot different thing from the "before" photo.
So those photos are not really good as evidence :D But I posted those since there might not be any before-after photos. I'm going to be really careful with honey. :eek:

I don't want any lighter hair, I do not want to deal with dark roots, so probably I will be looking for ways to condition with honey and no color changes at all.

Thank you so much for the update and the pictures. I agree, lighting can be very difficult but I believe you and I am very pleased for you. How is the condition of your hair?

Can you please give exact recipe and method details (what is your starting hair colour? what if any other colour is/was on it? what kind of water did you use this time?, what measurements?, how much cassia if you used it again?, what did you cover your hair with?) for others and the name of your honey? I want to add your latest report to the reports of others in the thread but I need this information first.

ktani
March 31st, 2009, 04:15 PM
It is in Honey lightening and red tones, but I just added Honey lightening and cassia (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332) to the first post of this thread, on its own, under Frequently asked about topics.

BranwenWolf
March 31st, 2009, 07:38 PM
Wow, I didn't know EVOO actually intensified the treatments. Will have to keep that in mind.

(and read the thread more carefully :p)

ktani
March 31st, 2009, 07:49 PM
Wow, I didn't know EVOO actually intensified the treatments. Will have to keep that in mind.

(and read the thread more carefully :p)

You just need to read the first post and the current pages. Anything else, just post and I will reply. It is a partnership. I research literature, analyze that and reports. People test and report and get innovative. Everything that is new, tested and confirmed, I take note of, record and I will add to the first post, which is always kept current.

Fethenwen
April 1st, 2009, 02:09 AM
So, I couldn't help myself and did another honey treatment yesterday :p I really should leave my hair alone now for a few days.
And I also took some before and after pics, I do regret that I didn't have a camera the day I did my first treatment so that I could have had a picture with my hair before any honey treatment.

But here is at least one pic I cropped from a pic showing my hair for about two months ago, I think it must have been hennaed the same day it was took because it is very dark. My hair was not that dark before the honey treatment two days ago, but it shows the cool burgundy color well:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35504

And here is a picture I took yesterday before the second honey treatment. So this is my hair with one honey treatment. Whoa, it really looks light in this bathroom light:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35500

Here's with more hair, looks more color accurate, as you can see it has much more warmer color than the first pic:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35499


And here is a pic taken after a second treatment with honey, I think it looks more yellow than it really is:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35502


And another, it looks still wet because the honey and oil was hard to wash out of my hair:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35503

And one last pic:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35501

So I think this treatment was quite successful :) I got more orange red which suits me better. It will be interesting to see the color change a bit when I get my hair to be less oily. I think I need to do a rhassoul clay treatment the get the honey and oil out.

Lucy_in_the_sky
April 1st, 2009, 03:05 AM
Hello! I have a very odd question... it may have been covered a lot already, but there's so many pages I had to ask. When we say "honey" is grocery store honey okay, or does it need to be a specific kind? Does anyone have a favorite brand of honey, or a preferred type? I know, that seems really rudimentary, but I didn't see it covered anywhere, and I'm really curious about this at-home lightening treatment. Thus far I've only been using a lemon juice + chamomile + lavender infusion treatment, occasionally with conditioner mixed in. I haven't noticed a drastic difference, other than that it's brought out my highlights more, but I'm trying to ween myself off my current colorist and find some less damaging alternatives.

Do you think that (as long as I make sure the infusion part of it is room temperature before I use it) my current recipe could be enriched with a honey + evoo addition? (Or will that completely damage/fry my hair?)

If it sounds good, I'll be sure to post photos with my results! :)

FUNK2LOPEZ
April 1st, 2009, 03:36 AM
My friend, ljkforu, did a honey treatment on her hair and used fireweed honey. It's a specific type of honey. Most honey you find in any grocery store is clover honey. The best honey for lightening use is fireweed honey. You should be able to find it at Fred Meyer or Krogers, whichever you have in your area, in the natual/organic section of the store if it's not with all the rest of the honeys.

Beyond that tip, I don't know much more about it. My friend is going to do a honey treatment on my hair because she's much more knowledgeable about all of this than me. She's the one that got me on this site and did a cassia/henna/indigo teatment to help with my split ends and get my hair healthy.

Fethenwen
April 1st, 2009, 04:05 AM
There's more info on the first page of this thread about a lot of things. Here's a link to successful honeys:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 07:29 AM
So, I couldn't help myself and did another honey treatment yesterday :p I really should leave my hair alone now for a few days.
And I also took some before and after pics, I do regret that I didn't have a camera the day I did my first treatment so that I could have had a picture with my hair before any honey treatment.

But here is at least one pic I cropped from a pic showing my hair for about two months ago, I think it must have been hennaed the same day it was took because it is very dark. My hair was not that dark before the honey treatment two days ago, but it shows the cool burgundy color well:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35504

And here is a picture I took yesterday before the second honey treatment. So this is my hair with one honey treatment. Whoa, it really looks light in this bathroom light:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35500

Here's with more hair, looks more color accurate, as you can see it has much more warmer color than the first pic:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35499


And here is a pic taken after a second treatment with honey, I think it looks more yellow than it really is:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35502


And another, it looks still wet because the honey and oil was hard to wash out of my hair:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35503

And one last pic:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35501

So I think this treatment was quite successful :) I got more orange red which suits me better. It will be interesting to see the color change a bit when I get my hair to be less oily. I think I need to do a rhassoul clay treatment the get the honey and oil out.

Thank you so much for your update and pictures. Your results are AMAZING! Did you use the exact same recipe as this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=525633&postcount=3511)?

I had researched cinnamon oil, which I could not find any information to indicate that it would work in a honey lightening recipe (there were no positive results reported with it but people tried making it by boiling cinnammon, which would have IMO destroyed any peroxide) and because it can be a very potent sensitizer and it is not recommended, but cardamom essential oil, is very different, and may just have made the difference for you. You also used it very sensibly, by diluting it with a carrier oil. You get full credit for this innovation.

Your hair looks fantastic! How is the condition of your hair? Full details, please, the recipe and method and I will add your report, with pictures to the pictures posts.

Again, thank you for your efforts and no worries about how many times you can honey lighten. There have been 0 reports of hair damage from this lightening process. You can try a CO (conditioner only wash) to remove remaining honey and oil.

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 07:37 AM
Hello! I have a very odd question... it may have been covered a lot already, but there's so many pages I had to ask. When we say "honey" is grocery store honey okay, or does it need to be a specific kind? Does anyone have a favorite brand of honey, or a preferred type? I know, that seems really rudimentary, but I didn't see it covered anywhere, and I'm really curious about this at-home lightening treatment. Thus far I've only been using a lemon juice + chamomile + lavender infusion treatment, occasionally with conditioner mixed in. I haven't noticed a drastic difference, other than that it's brought out my highlights more, but I'm trying to ween myself off my current colorist and find some less damaging alternatives.

Do you think that (as long as I make sure the infusion part of it is room temperature before I use it) my current recipe could be enriched with a honey + evoo addition? (Or will that completely damage/fry my hair?)

If it sounds good, I'll be sure to post photos with my results! :)

Welcome to LHC and Honey. Everything you need to get started with honey lightening is here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1). Your current recipe contains lemon juice, which is not recommended for honey lightening because the Vitamin C it contains, can deplete the peroxide in a honey lightening recipe, conditioner (also not recommended) and so can heat. I would also skip the chamomile. Please read through the first post information I just gave you and if you still have any questions, I will be happy to answer them.

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 07:45 AM
My friend, ljkforu, did a honey treatment on her hair and used fireweed honey. It's a specific type of honey. Most honey you find in any grocery store is clover honey. The best honey for lightening use is fireweed honey. You should be able to find it at Fred Meyer or Krogers, whichever you have in your area, in the natual/organic section of the store if it's not with all the rest of the honeys.

Beyond that tip, I don't know much more about it. My friend is going to do a honey treatment on my hair because she's much more knowledgeable about all of this than me. She's the one that got me on this site and did a cassia/henna/indigo teatment to help with my split ends and get my hair healthy.

Welcome to LHC and Honey! Not all honey at the grocery store is clover honey but many are. Clover honey has been reported to work well for honey lightening. It depends on the brand. Not all clover honeys are the same (they can contain different clover species).

Fireweed honey is an excellent choice and ljkforu had excellent results reported with it.

I will be happy to answer any questions that you may have on honey lightening, if you like. Thank you so much for helping out!

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 07:46 AM
There's more info on the first page of this thread about a lot of things. Here's a link to successful honeys:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Thank you very much for helping out!

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 08:39 AM
Essential oils should always be diluted in carrier oils. Both coconut oil and evoo are perfect for this purpose.

More on cardamom essential oil, including a caution, not mentioned before.

"Cardamom Organic Essential Oil .... tested non-toxic, non-irritating and non-sensitizing; .... possible irritation on sensitive and allergic skin; adverse reactions reported after ingestion, slight emmenagogue properties reported." (http://www.essentialaura.com/cardamom.html)

"Cardamom .... Safety precautions and warnings None known .... people with sensitive skins must use the essential oil carefully. In Ayurvedic medicine, cardamom is not used in pregnancy nor recommended for people with gallstones." (http://www.ageless.co.za/herb-cardamom.htm)

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 09:30 AM
Fethenwen's innovation of using diluted cardamom essential oil in her honey lightening recipe is truly exciting, IMO. Based on her results, it is amazing as an addition to a honey lightening recipe. It is too early at this point to say what it may do for others, but if her results are any indication, that may be a lot.

Fethenwen
April 1st, 2009, 10:17 AM
Thank you so much for your update and pictures. Your results are AMAZING! Did you use the exact same recipe as this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=525633&postcount=3511)?

I had researched cinnamon oil, which I could not find any information to indicate that it would work in a honey lightening recipe (there were no positive results reported with it but people tried making it by boiling cinnammon, which would have IMO destroyed any peroxide) and because it can be a very potent sensitizer and it is not recommended, but cardamom essential oil, is very different, and may just have made the difference for you. You also used it very sensibly, by diluting it with a carrier oil. You get full credit for this innovation.

Your hair looks fantastic! How is the condition of your hair? Full details, please, the recipe and method and I will add your report, with pictures to the pictures posts.

Again, thank you for your efforts and no worries about how many times you can honey lighten. There have been 0 reports of hair damage from this lightening process. You can try a CO (conditioner only wash) to remove remaining honey and oil.


Fethenwen's innovation of using diluted cardamom essential oil in her honey lightening recipe is truly exciting, IMO. Based on her results, it is amazing as an addition to a honey lightening recipe. It is too early at this point to say what it may do for others, but if her results are any indication, that may be a lot.
:) Thank you for your help and compliment!

Yes, my recipe for both times was:

"Mixed:
2 tablespoons of honey + 12 tablespoons of distilled water.
About one tablespoon of EVOO + two drops of cardamom oil.
One teaspoon ground cinnamon"

And I have hennaed my hair for about two years. And doing roots only for about half a year. So my ends are a bit darker because of that, but not that much that it would be an annoyance. The lightening showed more on the upper parts of my head than on my ends.
My condition of hair: I would say it is in quite good condition, and have tendencies for oiliness. My hair strands are very fine, but I have quite a lot of them. My original hair color is red, but I have been noticing that it is getting a more mousy color over the years.

I used cardamom essential oil because I thought that maybe it would be more potent because it is more like concentrated cardamom. I am usually not sensitive to anything, so I used it on my hair and scalp without worries of unpleasant reactions, it felt rather good, a bit like peppermint. But I can understand if someone might find cardamom oil to be a bit irritating on the scalp.
Still not sure if it was the cardamom oil that was the key to successful recipe here.

The only downside was that I my hair got heavy with oil and honey, which is very hard to wash out. So if I would do this many times in a row, I would probably wash my hair too much to get the honey out. I think I will invest in a cheap no cone conditioner, the rhassoul did not do the job very well.

I have also a question, is one hour considered to be the best time to have the honey treatment on the hair? I was wondering if leaving it for a longer time would have more effect?

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 10:30 AM
:) Thank you for your help and compliment!

Yes, my recipe for both times was:

"Mixed:
2 tablespoons of honey + 12 tablespoons of distilled water.
About one tablespoon of EVOO + two drops of cardamom oil.
One teaspoon ground cinnamon"

And I have hennaed my hair for about two years. And doing roots only for about half a year. So my ends are a bit darker because of that, but not that much that it would be an annoyance. The lightening showed more on the upper parts of my head than on my ends.
My condition of hair: I would say it is in quite good condition, and have tendencies for oiliness. My hair strands are very fine, but I have quite a lot of them. My original hair color is red, but I have been noticing that it is getting a more mousy color over the years.

I used cardamom essential oil because I thought that maybe it would be more potent because it is more like concentrated cardamom. I am usually not sensitive to anything, so I used it on my hair and scalp without worries of unpleasant reactions, it felt rather good, a bit like peppermint. But I can understand if someone might find cardamom oil to be a bit irritating on the scalp.
1. Still not sure if it was the cardamom oil that was the key to successful recipe here.

2. The only downside was that I my hair got heavy with oil and honey, which is very hard to wash out. So if I would do this many times in a row, I would probably wash my hair too much to get the honey out. I think I will invest in a cheap no cone conditioner, the rhassoul did not do the job very well.

3. I have also a question, is one hour considered to be the best time to have the honey treatment on the hair? I was wondering if leaving it for a longer time would have more effect?

You are most welcome. Thank you for getting back to me so quickly with your details. What did you cover your hair with to keep it wet?

1. There is no way to know for sure about the effect of the cardamom essential oil until more tests are done. 1 teaspoon of powdered cinnamon has been reported to help lighten henna with the new dilution, but not to extent that you got with your results. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375) The cardamom essential oil looks very promising. I am so glad to hear that you had no problems with it and that the condition of your hair is good.

2. If you use a no cone conditioner to wash the honey lightening treatment out, you may be able to get away with only one CO wash. It is recommended that 1 tablespoon or less of a booster oil be used. However, if you are using cardamom essential oil, 1 tablespoon would be best IMO, to dilute the essential oil.

3. If you let a recipe sit for 1 hour in advance, at room temperature before applying it, 1 hour on the hair for the treatment should be sufficient to get results. Even without letting a recipe sit out in advance, 1 hour has been reported to be fine. You can and others have, let a treatment stay on the hair longer. There is no problem with doing that and it may increase results. It is just not necessary for a honey lightening treatment, to be successful.

Fethenwen
April 1st, 2009, 10:57 AM
I did cover it with saran wrap, wrapped it many times around my head, over the ears and everything. And then put on a scarf on top of that and a towel on my shoulders because it kept on dripping, my hair was very wet under the wrap all the time.

I just went and got myself a conditioner just now :P I did not have any so. I did get my hands on a very cheap conditioner with minimum ingredients, it did the job very well! Thanks for the tip.

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 11:03 AM
I did cover it with saran wrap, wrapped it many times around my head, over the ears and everything. And then put on a scarf on top of that and a towel on my shoulders because it kept on dripping, my hair was very wet under the wrap all the time.

I just went and got myself a conditioner just now :P I did not have any so. I did get my hands on a very cheap conditioner with minimum ingredients, it did the job very well! Thanks for the tip.

Thank you and you are most welcome!

It is best not to have conditioner or conditioner residue on the hair before and no conditioner in a honey lightening treatment, but afterward, conditioner use is no problem.

ShaSha
April 1st, 2009, 11:12 AM
Can you please give exact recipe and method details

My starting hair colour is mixed. It's all natural, no coloring for years, but in summer the top layer and ends (I used to have it up in ponytail all the time) get lighter from the sun, roots and underside are darker.

I did not measure, dampened my hair with tap water, mixed honey with same tap water, just enough that it was possible to apply to my hair. At a guess I'd say there was more honey than the recommended ratio. I did not use anything else besides water and honey. Covered my hair with a thin plastic bag, a thick towel turban, left that for 1,5 hours, exactly. I had decided on that amount of time and was counting minutes by the end of it. :D

The honey is a brand that is in any supermarket here in Finland, brand name is "Sam", just ordinary kitchen honey. That was what I had around.

I washed my hair with a herbal mix after that, because the last time with cassia there was some residue. Now, after washing, there was none and the condition was fine. This morning I noticed some static, flyaway hair (not unusual for me in winter) so put a bit of sheabutter on the ends.

In natural daylight and after adding sheabutter I'm not quite as blond as the photo I took yesterday night, luckily. But there is a big difference.

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 11:19 AM
Fethenwen, I just added your report, to these 2 posts. I would like to know if possible, the brand and type (clover, etc.) of the honey you used please.

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=227548#post227548) and

Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening, catagorized by hair colour (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095)

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 11:41 AM
My starting hair colour is mixed. It's all natural, no coloring for years, but in summer the top layer and ends (I used to have it up in ponytail all the time) get lighter from the sun, roots and underside are darker.

I did not measure, dampened my hair with tap water, mixed honey with same tap water, just enough that it was possible to apply to my hair. At a guess I'd say there was more honey than the recommended ratio. I did not use anything else besides water and honey. Covered my hair with a thin plastic bag, a thick towel turban, left that for 1,5 hours, exactly. I had decided on that amount of time and was counting minutes by the end of it. :D

The honey is a brand that is in any supermarket here in Finland, brand name is "Sam", just ordinary kitchen honey. That was what I had around.

I washed my hair with a herbal mix after that, because the last time with cassia there was some residue. Now, after washing, there was none and the condition was fine. This morning I noticed some static, flyaway hair (not unusual for me in winter) so put a bit of sheabutter on the ends.

In natural daylight and after adding sheabutter I'm not quite as blond as the photo I took yesterday night, luckily. But there is a big difference.

Thank you for getting back to me with the details. I am glad to hear that the condition of your hair is good.

Some tap waters work well with honey lightening. Most do not but since yours did, and your results are so good with the dilution you did use, all is fine.

Thank you for the name of your honey too!

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 12:05 PM
ShaSha

I just added your report to these 2 posts.

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907)

and

The Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening, catagorized by hair colour (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095), under Medium shades of hair

and your honey here.
(http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856)

ktani
April 1st, 2009, 09:01 PM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin are present in the hair. What determines the hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

Fethenwen
April 2nd, 2009, 12:17 AM
Fethenwen, I just added your report, to these 2 posts. I would like to know if possible, the brand and type (clover, etc.) of the honey you used please.

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=227548#post227548) and

Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening, catagorized by hair colour (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095)

I used SAM Gourmet Italian forest honey (Italian metsä hunaja), there was also a Mexican honey of the same brand, and that had a very dark shade too. It was not easy to decide which one to buy, who knows, the Mexican one could also be potent. It was some sort of mountain honey.

ktani
April 2nd, 2009, 06:30 AM
I used SAM Gourmet Italian forest honey (Italian metsä hunaja), there was also a Mexican honey of the same brand, and that had a very dark shade too. It was not easy to decide which one to buy, who knows, the Mexican one could also be potent. It was some sort of mountain honey.

Thank you so much for getting back to me with this!

Finland has great honey avaiable for honey lightening, lol. I just realized now that both you and ShaSha are in Finland and both of you used the same brand. ShaSha said hers is just a kitchen honey and you used a gourmet version. Both of you got excellent results with SAM honey. SAM honeys obviously produce a fair amount of peroxide. ShaSha just used tap water, while you used distilled water. Finland obviouly has great tap water for honey lightening too, lol.

I think that your results have more to do with the honey than the cardamom essential oil but I am not discounting the essential of of cardamom having a significant effect, at this point. It may well have made the difference, with the henna that you have in your hair.

As to which honey to choose, if it is a single plant source honey, the colour is not important but if it is a blend, of honey plant sources, it is better to choose a dark coloured blend.

Companies blend the honeys that they import, with honeys produced in the country the companies are in. It is the quality of the imported and domestic honeys that matter as well as the plant sources, these days, because there is a lot of substandard honey out there, that may not be honey at all, in the true sense of the name. SAM is adhereing to high standards, based on the results of both of you.

I have added you honey to the list here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=119128#post119128).

mellie
April 2nd, 2009, 07:45 AM
I want to try a honey conditioning treatment (non-lightening) this weekend. Last year, my Mellie's Mix did a lovely job conditioning my hair, although it did lighten it considerably.

My goal is to condition but not change the color of my dark hair at all, nor affect the color of my silver hairs either. I'll nuke the honey for 30 seconds or so, so it shouldn't lighten.

Last year, I used a tea of chamomile and mullein, with lemon juice too. However, I'm worried that the chamomile and mullein might impart some color to my silvers. Since I am not trying to lighten or add any color, do you think maybe I should just use water with the honey instead?

ktani
April 2nd, 2009, 08:11 AM
I want to try a honey conditioning treatment (non-lightening) this weekend. Last year, my Mellie's Mix did a lovely job conditioning my hair, although it did lighten it considerably.

My goal is to condition but not change the color of my dark hair at all, nor affect the color of my silver hairs either. I'll nuke the honey for 30 seconds or so, so it shouldn't lighten.

Last year, I used a tea of chamomile and mullein, with lemon juice too. However, I'm worried that the chamomile and mullein might impart some color to my silvers. Since I am not trying to lighten or add any color, do you think maybe I should just use water with the honey instead?

Definitely nuke (microwave) the honey for 30 seconds to under 1 minute, to ensure no possibility of lightening. Lemon juice should not add colour but it may make the mix less conditioning. I do not remember you haveing a problem with honey residue from the honey brands you used. I would go for just honey and water.

Chamomile can add colour and so can mullein. I saved mullein information from last year.

"Great Mullein has been used ... as a remedy for skin, throat and breathing ailments. .... It contains mucilage, several saponins, coumarin and glycosides. ... Non-medical uses have included dyeing ..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbascum_thapsus)

Information on mullein safety can be found here (http://www.drugs.com/npp/mullein.html). There is information lacking for pregnancy and breastfeeding (this does not apply to you though, right now), so it is best avoided during those times, IMO.

mellie's mix gave you great lightening because of the honey you used, IMO. I do not recommend mullein for a honey lightening recipe because it is high in iron and Vitamin C, both of which can dpeplete a recipe peroxide value.

"Statistical data .... on 93 herbs .... Mullein (leaf) is the third highest plant in the nutrient iron at 23.6 mg. .... is also high in .... vitamin C. Source: Nutritional Herbology by Mark Pedersen." (http://www.herbaleducator.com/herbs_mullein.html)

mellie
April 2nd, 2009, 08:36 AM
OK, thanks Ktani! I'll just use nuked honey (if I can find that same brand) and water, and post my results before and after! :-)

ktani
April 2nd, 2009, 08:38 AM
OK, thanks Ktani! I'll just use nuked honey (if I can find that same brand) and water, and post my results before and after! :-)

I look forward to your results! Good luck!

Fethenwen
April 2nd, 2009, 11:18 AM
Thank you so much for getting back to me with this!

Finland has great honey avaiable for honey lightening, lol. I just realized now that both you and ShaSha are in Finland and both of you used the same brand. ShaSha said hers is just a kitchen honey and you used a gourmet version. Both of you got excellent results with SAM honey. SAM honeys obviously produce a fair amount of peroxide. ShaSha just used tap water, while you used distilled water. Finland obviouly has great tap water for honey lightening too, lol.

I think that your results have more to do with the honey than the cardamom essential oil but I am not discounting the essential of of cardamom having a significant effect, at this point. It may well have made the difference, with the henna that you have in your hair.

As to which honey to choose, if it is a single plant source honey, the colour is not important but if it is a blend, of honey plant sources, it is better to choose a dark coloured blend.

Companies blend the honeys that they import, with honeys produced in the country the companies are in. It is the quality of the imported and domestic honeys that matter as well as the plant sources, these days, because there is a lot of substandard honey out there, that may not be honey at all, in the true sense of the name. SAM is adhereing to high standards, based on the results of both of you.

I have added you honey to the list here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=119128#post119128).
:p Well at least we got something to boast about then.
I finally got my hair cleared up from the honey so I took a picture (I got too much time on my hands!lol) So it looks even brighter now.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35612

ktani
April 2nd, 2009, 11:23 AM
:p Well at least we got something to boast about then.
I finally got my hair cleared up from the honey so I took a picture (I got too much time on my hands!lol) So it looks even brighter now.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2829&pictureid=35612

Thank you so much for the new picture!

All I can say is WOW! Your hair is just WOW!

I do not think that this is just from the SAM honey. I think that the cardamom essential oil played a part to get your hennaed hair this light.

A for Finland not having something else to boast about lol, I am sure that your country has plenty to offer!

ktani
April 2nd, 2009, 11:42 AM
I do not believe that this result is just from honey alone or just honey and 1 tsp of powdered cinnamon on hennaed hair. I definitely think that cardamom essential oil played a part. After 1.5 years, your hair was already burgundy from henna. I have not seen henna lighten so fast with honey lightening except once (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586), after lightening henndigo and then lightening the henna layers underneath. There was not as much henna on the hair as yours in the other case and the end result was not as light.

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

ktani
April 2nd, 2009, 02:34 PM
I have posted this information before. If Egyptians chewed cardamom to whiten their teeth (http://pr.sv.net/aw/2006/January2006/english/pages002.htm), the essential oil could help lighten hair IMO.

Heidi_234
April 2nd, 2009, 05:16 PM
Fethenwen's innovation of using diluted cardamom essential oil in her honey lightening recipe is truly exciting, IMO. Based on her results, it is amazing as an addition to a honey lightening recipe. It is too early at this point to say what it may do for others, but if her results are any indication, that may be a lot.
The result is just plain amazing! I'll be looking for the cardamom EO everywhere now! Just wow!

ktani
April 2nd, 2009, 05:24 PM
The result is just plain amazing! I'll be looking for the cardamom EO everywhere now! Just wow!

Heidi, keep in mind that the honey used was a large part of the results as well, IMO. That brand of honey worked for ShaSha too.

Heidi_234
April 2nd, 2009, 05:28 PM
Heidi, keep in mind that the honey used was a large part of the results as well, IMO. That brand of honey worked for ShaSha too.
*sigh* So, it's more likely the honey?

ktani
April 2nd, 2009, 05:48 PM
*sigh* So, it's more likely the honey?

I think that it is both and the evoo and the powdered cinnamon and distilled water. They all work in concert.

ktani
April 3rd, 2009, 06:47 AM
It will be most interesting to see what cardamom essential oil, evoo, powdered cinnamon, distilled water and a good honey can do for hennaed hair from this point forward.

ktani
April 3rd, 2009, 07:03 AM
Jarrah honey (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266) IMO, is a good honey to try with cardamom essential oil, evoo, distilled water and powdered cinnamon for hennaed hair.

ktani
April 3rd, 2009, 08:12 AM
When a honey lightening recipe has been reported to be successful, IMO, it is best duplicated exactly as it is at first, before being dissected to try only one new addition.

It may be that the cardamom essential oil works in a special way with the evoo and would not work as well with coconut oil. Everything in a honey lightening recipe works together, as in any other kind of recipe. And the honey used is always important.

ktani
April 3rd, 2009, 07:06 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
April 4th, 2009, 08:57 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
April 4th, 2009, 10:06 AM
Notes on EVOO (Extra Virgin Olive Oil) PV is short for Peroxide Value
"The PV is greatly reduced by the refining process used for most vegetable oils. Virgin olive oils are not exposed to such processes and the PVs permitted in these products are considerably higher. The IOOC and CAC standards permit extra-virgin olive oils to have PVs of up to 20 meq/kg, while pure olive oils, which by definition are blends of virgin and refined olive oils, must have PVs below 10 meq/kg. (http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm)"

In other words, the peroxide value of a pure evoo is going to be higher than that of a blend of evoo and olive oil, which would be about that of coconut oil.

Here is one source for cardamom essential oil and they sell samples, as well as provide information. (http://www.100pureessentialoils.com/site/1562898/page/710050)

ktani
April 4th, 2009, 10:36 AM
Outside of Finland, to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe, (Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553, recipe details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538, method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540), I suggest these options.

1. The best honey one can find for honey lightening. (Suggestions; Jarrah (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266) honey, Ambrosia Honey Co. honey, Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey available at Fred Meyer and Kroger stores). If a particular brand is unavailable, look for a dark coloured honey blend where you are, create your own blend, refer to this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)list, or try a honeydew honey (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575). Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. The essential oil used was pure essential oil of cardamom, not an extract which is diluted and usually contains alcohol.

3. A pure evoo (it will have a higher peroxide value than a blend of evoo and refined olive oil (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533046&postcount=3566))

4. Distilled water

5. powdered cinnamon

ShaSha
April 4th, 2009, 11:41 AM
Ktani, I was wondering why the ratio of honey to water is 1/4?

Both times I had lighter hair I used more honey than that.

Basically because I have thin hair, and I was afraid that if I used too much water it would drip, drip and drip for the 1½ hours and all the honey would be in my shoulders... :o And since my hair is thin, and cannot keep much water the amount of honey at the 1/4 mixture would have been extremely minimal.

So... I decided to see what happens if I use a lot of honey and less water, and it did work.

I was just wondering if there is any harm in usin more honey than one part to four?

ktani
April 4th, 2009, 11:48 AM
Ktani, I was wondering why the ratio of honey to water is 1/4?

Both times I had lighter hair I used more honey than that.

Basically because I have thin hair, and I was afraid that if I used too much water it would drip, drip and drip for the 1½ hours and all the honey would be in my shoulders... :o And since my hair is thin, and cannot keep much water the amount of honey at the 1/4 mixture would have been extremely minimal.

So... I decided to see what happens if I use a lot of honey and less water, and it did work.

I was just wondering if there is any harm in usin more honey than one part to four?

No, there is no harm at all but the results, in terms of possible colour change, depend on the honey used and the water. The ratio is based on this. (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

Later, I found out that the optimal pH for a honey to produce peroxide is pH 6 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=274753&postcount=2243). Most honeys on the market have a lower pH than that and using more water would raise that pH, depending of course on the water pH and its mineral content (minerals can deplete a honey lightening peroxide level).

If the SAM honey has a higher pH, less water would be needed to dilute it, to be at the optimal pH level to produce peroxide (honey can produce peroxide at a lower pH level but it would be less peroxide).

ktani
April 4th, 2009, 12:50 PM
GlassEyes honey lightening on naturally black hair with the old recipe and dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241566&postcount=10

GlassEyes recipe and method - 4 or 5 days a week for a month
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241626&postcount=12

GlassEyes on why the old recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241667&postcount=15

Honey lightening has progressed considerably since then.

I think his results would have been much faster and better with the new dilution, distilled water and new recipes but his method was perfect, IMO.

I added the honey the used to the Successful Honeys List here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ShaSha
April 4th, 2009, 12:54 PM
Thans, Ktani. :)

When I came to LHC I just thought I'd like to grow my hair longer. Now I'm mixed up with pH's, effects of different herbs and so on...

But I'm not complaining, it's interesting. :D

ktani
April 4th, 2009, 01:00 PM
Thans, Ktani. :)

When I came to LHC I just thought I'd like to grow my hair longer. Now I'm mixed up with pH's, effects of different herbs and so on...

But I'm not complaining, it's interesting. :D

You are most welcome! To help you out with the pH confusion, just keep doing what you are doing with honey lightening. You do not need to change anything with that, based on your results.

As for herbs/plants, most of those are acidic in any case, so you should be fine there too. If you are concerned about pH with plants, buy some pH papers, to test a herb/plant solution, to reassure yourself that what you are going to use is acidic. Hair and skin are healthier at an acidic pH, which is what the natural acid mantle of the body is, about pH 4.7 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18489300).

This pH paper roll (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00142E2F2/ref=asc_df_B00142E2F2759178?smid=A2GCB7BIXDV64&tag=yahoo-kitchen-mp-20&linkCode=asn)is similar to the one I have and measures pH from 4.5 to 7.5. The solution does not have to be 4.7 pH, just acidic and close to pH 5 if possible but if it is higher, like pH 5.5 to 6 or even 6.5, that is fine, IMO.

ktani
April 4th, 2009, 10:04 PM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 07:06 AM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)." (http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html)

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. " (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust." (http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm)

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used " (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 08:51 AM
Honey blends

Research I read, stated that dark coloured blends had higher peroxide values than light coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value, it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. The idea is that the different honey peroxide levels get added together, to produce one stronger mix peroxide value. It depends on the individual honeys but it increases the odds of a successful recipe result, if one cannot find a local honey that works well for honey lightening, on its own.

There is also this. So a honeydew honey may very well be an excellent honey lightening choice.
2007
“…. darker and less sweet honeys …. indicative of the honey scavenging capacity, which is greater in dark honeys, mainly honeydews. ” (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120089364/abstract)

“Glucose Oxidase (GOX) is of interest in relation to antibacterial properties in honey. It catalyses glucose to form gluconic acid and Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) - the main agent responsible for antibacterial activity in most honeys. GOX activity (usually measured by its production of H2O2) is highly variable in differing honeys. …. appears that GOX activity is related to specific honey sources e.g. beech honeydew usually has a high level of activity." (http://www.airborne.co.nz/Enzymes.html#GOX)

"Honeydew honey from the conifer forests of the mountainous regions of central Europe and honey from manuka .... in New Zealand have been found to have high antibacterial activity." (http://www.drugs.com/npp/honey.html)

This may mean (the higher pH), that a lower dilution with distilled water can be used and that would mean less drips with a honey lightening recipe.
"Honeydew honeys were generally characterised by higher pH… acidity and darker colour than nectar honeys." (http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research/Honeydew-honeys-top-antioxidant-ratings)

This honeydew honey (http://www.amazon.com/Wedderspoon-Organic-Autumn-Honeydew-17-6-Ounce/dp/B001EO6F64) does not contain Vitamin C, or iron, so it should be great for honey lightening. Nutrition facts (http://www.amazon.com/Wedderspoon-Organic-Autumn-Honeydew-17-6-Ounce/dp/B001EO6F64#nutrition-facts).

The exact same honey can be purchased from here (http://www.vitacost.com/Wedderspoon-Organic-Forest-Honeydew-Honey-17-6-oz?csrc=GPF-094922556707) for a lot less money.

The Wedderspoon brand, is Canadian (http://www.wedderspoon.ca/shop/manuka-organic-honey/organic-honeydew) and they sell Manuka honey too.

New Zealand Beech Forest honeydew honey can be purchased from here (http://fast-pak-trading-inc.amazonwebstore.com/New-Zealand-Beech-Forest-Honeydew-Honey/M/B000NAZQLA.htm?traffic_src=froogle&utm_medium=organic&utm_source=froogle).

mellie
April 5th, 2009, 11:03 AM
OK, I tried a honey conditioning treatment this morning and here's my results!

First, I was NOT going for lightening, so I nuked the honey for 30 seconds. I couldn't find the honey I used last year, so I just used Kroger brand clover honey, about an 1/8 cup with about the same amount of water. First I tried brushing it on but gave up and just dumped it on my hair. I put it up and let it sit for about an hour (a little bit less).

Before (left), after (right):
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2381&pictureid=35948http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2381&pictureid=35949

Before (left), after (right) (sorry the second pic is quite a bit lighter - my camera is dying!):
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2381&pictureid=35876http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2381&pictureid=35950

I don't really see any difference. Can you? It was pretty shiny already, from using lime juice in my soapnut recipe! :D

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 11:08 AM
OK, I tried a honey conditioning treatment this morning and here's my results!

First, I was NOT going for lightening, so I nuked the honey for 30 seconds. I couldn't find the honey I used last year, so I just used Kroger brand clover honey, about an 1/8 cup with about the same amount of water. First I tried brushing it on but gave up and just dumped it on my hair. I put it up and let it sit for about an hour (a little bit less).

Before (left), after (right):
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2381&pictureid=35948http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2381&pictureid=35949

Before (left), after (right) (sorry the second pic is quite a bit lighter - my camera is dying!):
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2381&pictureid=35876http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2381&pictureid=35950

I don't really see any difference. Can you? It was pretty shiny already, from using lime juice in my soapnut recipe! :D

Thank you for the update and pictures. You hair looks somewhat smoother in the after picture, a little "softer", in how it lays, to me. There seems to be more smoothness on the back lefthand side of your hair, too.

mellie
April 5th, 2009, 11:39 AM
Thanks, Ktani, I can see what you are pointing out.

I am glad that it didn't affect my color at all, or my silvers. But, since there wasn't much difference in glossiness/shine, I probably wouldn't do it again (at least with that brand of honey!).

P.S. I forgot to mention that the little arrow is pointing to my new silver streak!

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 12:00 PM
Thanks, Ktani, I can see what you are pointing out.

I am glad that it didn't affect my color at all, or my silvers. But, since there wasn't much difference in glossiness/shine, I probably wouldn't do it again (at least with that brand of honey!).

P.S. I forgot to mention that the little arrow is pointing to my new silver streak!

You are most welcome! It really depends on why you did the treatment and the results to you, as to whether you want to repeat it. I did not notice the arrow, lol. The streak looks great!

mellie
April 5th, 2009, 12:32 PM
Thanks Ktani! I'm loving my new streak!! :-)

BranwenWolf
April 5th, 2009, 12:46 PM
Mellie- how neat that you posted in this thread, did you know that Melissa, Mellie, Mallory and mellifluous are from the Latin word for honey? :D
I like your streak- it's in a really cool spot.

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 01:25 PM
mellie has posted in Honey several times, this year, last year and 2007, in previous Honey threads.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98004&postcount=501

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109246&postcount=572

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 01:59 PM
The antibacterial properties of the peroxide produced by honey

"Glucose oxidase is an enzyme secreted by the bees to form honey from nectar. It converts glucose in the presence of water and oxygen to gluconic acid and hydrogen peroxide. .... resulting acidity and hydrogen peroxide preserve and sterilize the honey during the ripening process. Full-strength honey has negligible amounts of hydrogen peroxide and active glucose oxidase. Transition ions and ascorbic acids rapidly decompose hydrogen peroxide to oxygen and water while the low pH inactivates the enzyme. (http://www.noveya.com/honey.html)However, dilution of honey results in a 2,500-50,000 increase in enzyme activity and a “slow-release” antiseptic that does not damage tissue. .... The peroxide-generating system does not account for all of the observed antibacterial activity. Several substances with antibacterial activity are found in honey (http://www.noveya.com/honey.html)in small quantities that are too low to concontribute significantly to antibacterial activity .... (http://www.noveya.com/honey.html)"

The UMF (unique manuka factor) in manuka honey has been shown to provide extra antibacterial properties separate from hydrogen peroxide but the above to me, means that the peroxide value of honeydew honey (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575), should be fairly high.

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 03:32 PM
The colours of honey (http://www.mieliditalia.it/colori/inglese/home.htm)

Note: Not all darker honeys have higher peroxide values, e.g. chestnut honey and not all honeys are represented here. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.
Honey, regardless of its colour, has not been reported to add colour to hair when used in a honey lightening recipe.

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 07:13 PM
Outside of Finland, to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe, (Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553, recipe details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538, method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540), I suggest these options.

1. The best honey one can find for honey lightening. (Suggestions; Jarrah (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/The best honey one can find for honey lightening.) honey, Ambrosia Honey Co. honey, Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey available at Fred Meyer and Kroger stores). If a particular brand is unavailable, look for a dark coloured honey blend where you are, create your own blend, refer to this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)list, or try a honeydew honey (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575). Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. The essential oil used was pure essential oil of cardamom, not an extract which is diluted and usually contains alcohol.

3. A pure evoo (it will have a higher peroxide value than a blend of evoo and refined olive oil (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533046&postcount=3566))

4. Distilled water

5. powdered cinnamon

ljkforu
April 5th, 2009, 07:58 PM
Happy results!

I accidentally used brown henna on FUNK2LOPEZ's light brown hair in a cassia 6 g /henna 6 g gloss that used a whole bottle of conefree conditioner (Sauve).

It turned out a little too brown so I used honey lightening:

Fireweed 4 fluid oz
filtered water 16 fluid oz
1 tablespoon each ground cinamon and cardamom
(I accidentally forgot the evoo)

I mixed it up and let it sit an hour then she applied and left on for 1 1/2 hours. It worked great. It lifted the brown and left her with the golden strawberry we were after and her hair is really silky and over 40 inches long.

I had her wash with a regular shampoo and then several times with V05 vanilla mint to get all the grit out. I had her rinse with a cold vit C rinse 1/4 tsp to 20 oz because her water has made my hair crunchy before (she didn't get the crunchies).

She will post photos as soon as she can get rights :)

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 08:03 PM
Happy results!

I accidentally used brown henna on FUNK2LOPEZ's light brown hair in a cassia 6 g /henna 6 g gloss that used a whole bottle of conefree conditioner (Sauve).

It turned out a little too brown so I used honey lightening:

Fireweed 4 fluid oz
filtered water 16 fluid oz
1 tablespoon each ground cinamon and cardamom
(I accidentally forgot the evoo)

I mixed it up and let it sit an hour then she applied and left on for 1 1/2 hours. It worked great. It lifted the brown and left her with the golden strawberry we were after and her hair is really silky and over 40 inches long.

I had her wash with a regular shampoo and then several times with V05 vanilla mint to get all the grit out. I had her rinse with a cold vit C rinse 1/4 tsp to 20 oz because her water has made my hair crunchy before (she didn't get the crunchies).

She will post photos as soon as she can get rights :)

Wonderful! Thank you so much for reporting and for all for the details. As soon as the pictures are posted I will add this post and that, to the pictures posts. You have great water, the perfect recipe (even without the evoo) for it and the honey you used (fireweed), which is a great honey for honey lightening, based on reports!

If the henna was freshly done though, some of it may have washed out a bit and lightened without honey lightening. Unbound henna washes out pretty easily, as I understand it.

ktani
April 5th, 2009, 10:16 PM
The Vitamin C content of selected ingredients, (as well as the mineral and protein content inside the links).

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Black Pepper, 1.3 mg in 1 tbsp or 6 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c203E.html

Cardamom, ground, 1.2 mg - in 1 tbsp or 6 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c202q.html

Chamomile tea, brewed, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c212q.html

Cinnamon, ground (cassia), .3 mg in 1tbsp or 8 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c202u.html

Coconut cream, canned sweetened, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oC.html

Coconut cream, raw, 6.7 mg in 1 cup or 240 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oB.html

Coconut meat, dried, creamed, 0.4 mg or in 1 ounce or 28 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oo.html

Coconut milk, canned, 2.3 mg in 1 cup or 226 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oE.html

Coconut milk, raw, 6.7 mg in 1 cup or 240 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20oD.html

Coconut oil - 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c208C.html

Extra virgin olive oil, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.edenfoods.com/store/nlea.php?products_id=104340

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Nutmeg, ground, 0 Vitamin C
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c2039.html

Orange juice, canned, unsweetened, 85.7 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vo.html

Orange juice, chilled, includes from concentrate, 81.9 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vp.html

Orange juice, frozen concentrate, unsweetened, diluted with 3 volume water, 96.9 mg in 1 cup or 249 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vr.html

Orange juice, frozen concentrate, unsweetened, undiluted, 393 mg in 1 cup or 284 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vq.html

Orange juice, raw, 124 mg in 1 cup or 248 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20Vn.html

Tomato juice, canned with salt added, 44.5 mg in 1 cup or 243 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hM.html

Tomato juice, canned without salt added, 44.5 mg in 1 cup or 243 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20li.html

Tomato paste, with salt added, 28.7 mg in 1/2 cup or 131 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20lj.html

Tomato paste, without salt added, 57.4 mg in 1 cup or 262 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hN.html

Tomato sauce, canned, 17.2 mg in 1 cup or 245 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20hQ.html

Tomatoes, canned, crushed, 2.6 mg in 1 ounce or 28 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20ik.html

Turmeric, ground, 1.7 mg in 1 tbsp or 7 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c203Q.html

Nutrition facts per serving - Vitamin C content - these are American statistics - these numbers may help explain certain results apart from the natural peroxide level of the honey used in a lightening recipe. Vitamin C depletes the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

I have included the 5 spices; black pepper, cardamom, cinnamon, nutmeg and turmeric, with the highest peroxide values, on this list.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=KZa8aPxR_-wC&pg=PA322&lpg=PA322&dq=cinnamon+pov&source=web&ots=pjIeAfr5-Z&sig=OMZG-eBpqhAP5xevko2Ot2tkeW4&hl=en

Minerals can decompose hydrogen peroxide - in the links from Nutrition Facts, you will also find the mineral content for each item. The primary metals that can affect peroxide are iron, manganese, copper, nickel and chromium.

ljkforu
April 5th, 2009, 11:59 PM
Ktani, the henna I accidentally used was Catherine's. It was a generic brown henna (I meant to use pure red). It could have had either PPD or Indigo in it, I don't know which. It appeared to permanently give a browner cast to her light brown hair and it wasn't coming out with time. It was very shocking because I used such a small amount of Cassia O. and Henna per conditioner amount and in 1 1/2 hours I had to send her running to the shower to get it off. This kind of makes me think I had a hold of a non pure henna.

The honey lightening fixed the problem whether it was indigo or PPD, it removed it and left the light red of the henna behind like we desired. Her end result is light golden/strawberry brown like it was supposed to be and it is highly reflective from all the honey.

ktani
April 6th, 2009, 06:30 AM
Ktani, the henna I accidentally used was Catherine's. It was a generic brown henna (I meant to use pure red). It could have had either PPD or Indigo in it, I don't know which. It appeared to permanently give a browner cast to her light brown hair and it wasn't coming out with time. It was very shocking because I used such a small amount of Cassia O. and Henna per conditioner amount and in 1 1/2 hours I had to send her running to the shower to get it off. This kind of makes me think I had a hold of a non pure henna.

The honey lightening fixed the problem whether it was indigo or PPD, it removed it and left the light red of the henna behind like we desired. Her end result is light golden/strawberry brown like it was supposed to be and it is highly reflective from all the honey.

I cannot comment on what it may have been but I am very glad that the honey lightening worked and that you are both happy with the results. I would be very surprised if the henna from that source had PPD in it though.

ktani
April 6th, 2009, 01:12 PM
A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html). 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. Another way to use the new dilution is to just use tablespoons, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc. It works out to be the same as calculating by weight.

According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin).
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369) is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173).

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil. Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons. Information on ground cinnamon can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314). Information on ground cardamom can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373). Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon. None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883) (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Store (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452) your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90% water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out. If there is honey residue, shampoo is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035).

12. This (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095) is a Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.

ljkforu
April 6th, 2009, 07:07 PM
I agree that you can avoid the crunchies by using regular shampoo even if you don't usually and then a light acid rinse. Seems to make all the difference in the world. My first try I didn't do either and I was terrified that I had fried 5 inches of hair. It was indeed just honey and came right off.

ktani
April 6th, 2009, 07:12 PM
I agree that you can avoid the crunchies by using regular shampoo even if you don't usually and then a light acid rinse. Seems to make all the difference in the world. My first try I didn't do either and I was terrified that I had fried 5 inches of hair. It was indeed just honey and came right off.

I am glad to hear that you are pleased with the results. It depends on the honey, as to how much, if any residue is left behind, when a honey lightening recipe is rinsed out. Some people have reported none that they could discern.

ktani
April 6th, 2009, 11:18 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495) and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

Ishtarthemis
April 7th, 2009, 01:40 AM
Hi there, can anyone tell me if honey lightening on hennaed hair lifts the henna or the natural hair color or both? My hair is almost black on the crown, the rest very sunbleached. 2 full head hennas have left it more or less the same darkest brown/black on the un-sunbleached crown (maybe more reddish in the light), and reddish brown on the very sunbleached length. Thanks to all.

Ishtarthemis
April 7th, 2009, 01:52 AM
Hi its me again, forgot to include indigo in that question; I am using hendigo(50/50) on some silvers at the roots.

ljkforu
April 7th, 2009, 02:06 AM
Hi its me again, forgot to include indigo in that question; I am using hendigo(50/50) on some silvers at the roots.
IMHO, it lifts everything but the henna. You get a little lightening of your natural hair and a nice removal of easy lift tints like indigo and katam. Very convenient for those of us that goofed.

Ktani, I have to be honest I'm being really sloppy when I mix my lightening formulas and am having terrific results. I'm using 1 fluid oz of fireweed honey, 4 fluid oz soft water, freshly ground cardamom hand picked out of green pods and broken Cinnamon sticks equaling roughly 1 tablespoon each freshly ground to a fine grit in a coffee grinder. It doesn't seem like the oil made a difference one way or the other because I forgot it by accident. It really seems like the most important thing is good water, good honey and the cardamom (really fresh).

I can't even tell you how good the mixture smells on the head with the freshly ground cardamom and Cinnamon mixed with the strong fireweed honey.

Overall, the recipe seems very forgiving of sloppiness and the fireweed honey at Kroger's/Fred Meyer is 3.29 US for an 8 oz bear.

Ishtarthemis
April 7th, 2009, 02:21 AM
So my hair will be lighter but with the same henna tint ? That would be great - I don't want the henna gone - but it is hard to understand how my haircolor could be lifted while the henna stays intact. I don't really want to have to re henna if the henna lifts because I am afraid of loosening my curl and flattening my full hair. Also, I don't want the hendigo covering my silvers lifting too much.

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 06:07 AM
So my hair will be lighter but with the same henna tint ? That would be great - I don't want the henna gone - but it is hard to understand how my haircolor could be lifted while the henna stays intact. I don't really want to have to re henna if the henna lifts because I am afraid of loosening my curl and flattening my full hair. Also, I don't want the hendigo covering my silvers lifting too much.

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

Honey lightening can lift both the underlying hair colour and lighten the henna and indigo too (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095). It would be best if you did a test strand on shed hair. It depends on your honey and water and for henna, whatever else you add to the mix.

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 06:13 AM
IMHO, it lifts everything but the henna. You get a little lightening of your natural hair and a nice removal of easy lift tints like indigo and katam. Very convenient for those of us that goofed.

Ktani, I have to be honest I'm being really sloppy when I mix my lightening formulas and am having terrific results. I'm using 1 fluid oz of fireweed honey, 4 fluid oz soft water, freshly ground cardamom hand picked out of green pods and broken Cinnamon sticks equaling roughly 1 tablespoon each freshly ground to a fine grit in a coffee grinder. It doesn't seem like the oil made a difference one way or the other because I forgot it by accident. It really seems like the most important thing is good water, good honey and the cardamom (really fresh).

I can't even tell you how good the mixture smells on the head with the freshly ground cardamom and Cinnamon mixed with the strong fireweed honey.

Overall, the recipe seems very forgiving of sloppiness and the fireweed honey at Kroger's/Fred Meyer is 3.29 US for an 8 oz bear.

You have a really good (for honey lightening) honey and water to begin with. The essential oil of cardamom is a great new option to try but the cardamom and cinnamon you are using along with your honey and water, are working just fine (you are also using freshly ground cardamom, which can be stronger than dried powdered cardamom). You may get even better results with the cardamom oil but if you remember it next time, please also remember to dilute it into evoo, which you also forgot. Depending on the pH of the honey, and the pH and mineral content of the water used, the dilution ratio can be varied and less water used. With your honey and water, obviously both are perfect for this variance, based on your reported results.

princess
April 7th, 2009, 06:56 AM
Can I ask whether anyone had tried honey lightening on unbleached black hair which has not greyed at all.

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 07:05 AM
Can I ask whether anyone had tried honey lightening on unbleached black hair which has not greyed at all.

Yes, they have (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534). There are old hi-lights in that picture but the natural balck hair lightened too. I would not use that recipe now though. One of the ingredients, mullein, contains a lot of iron and Vitamin C, (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=233229&postcount=4) which would not help the recipe peroxide value. I would go with the new recipes (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1).

princess
April 7th, 2009, 07:16 AM
Yes, they have (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=105685&postcount=534). There are old hi-lights in that picture but the natural balck hair lightened too. I would not use that recipe now though. One of the ingredients, mullein, contains a lot of iron and Vitamin C, (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=233229&postcount=4) which would not help the recipe peroxide value. I would go with the new recipes (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1).

After the lightening with honey and distilled water how does one get back the original colour?(stupid question!!!). Do we have to apply a natural dye like Indigo?

I am asking this because I have been thinking that honey can be used to get lighter colour highlights in a dark hair. Just thinking......

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 07:22 AM
After the lightening with honey and distilled water how does one get back the original colour?(stupid question!!!). Do we have to apply a natural dye like Indigo?

I am asking this because I have been thinking that honey can be used to get lighter colour highlights in a dark hair. Just thinking......

No question to me, is stupid. You would have to colour the hair darker again. Honey lightening when successful, is permanent, based on reports. Hi-lights can be done with it. See BranwenWolf's results here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095).

princess
April 7th, 2009, 07:28 AM
No question to me, is stupid. You would have to colour the hair darker again. Honey lightening when successful, is permanent, based on reports. Hi-lights can be done with it.

Thanks. Now I know I can do highlights in my hair if I want to without any harmful effects of chemical dyes.

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 07:32 AM
Thanks. Now I know I can do highlights in my hair if I want to without any harmful effects of chemical dyes.

You are most welcome and yes, you can! You can aso check out the peroxide thread in my signature. It is about helping to minimize chemical lightening damage with a pretreatment of coconut oil or coconut oil and argan oil.

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 07:36 AM
Thanks. Now I know I can do highlights in my hair if I want to without any harmful effects of chemical dyes.

I added a link for you here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=537095&postcount=3604), while you were replying to me.

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 06:18 PM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

Inanna Rose
April 7th, 2009, 07:02 PM
I was wonder if any one has tried a honey, olive oil, ground oatmeal and coconut milk condition? I have tried a few home recipies with olive oil but my hair is dry enough that I was wanting to try this to see if it would better condition my hair than just the oil and fragrants.

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 08:21 PM
I was wonder if any one has tried a honey, olive oil, ground oatmeal and coconut milk condition? I have tried a few home recipies with olive oil but my hair is dry enough that I was wanting to try this to see if it would better condition my hair than just the oil and fragrants.

There were honey lightening recipes with coconut cream or milk but they contain minerals and Vitamin C, so results reported, while successful, were s l o w. Evoo is a booster for the current recipes and all are considered conditioning. Oatmeal? nope, not heard of it for that but, why not? To avoid the possibility of lightening, microwave the honey separately first, from 30 seconds to under 1 minute.

Avalonna
April 7th, 2009, 08:33 PM
Are fireweed and Jarrah honeys that much more effective than other kinds? I have done about four honey treatments without much, if any, lightening. I'm thinking about ordering some fireweed or Jarrah honey, but wondering if it's worth the shipping costs.

ktani
April 7th, 2009, 09:04 PM
Are fireweed and Jarrah honeys that much more effective than other kinds? I have done about four honey treatments without much, if any, lightening. I'm thinking about ordering some fireweed or Jarrah honey, but wondering if it's worth the shipping costs.

Both honeys have good track records, with Jarrah honey having been reported more. If you use it with distilled water, on hair that does not have build-up on it, there is a good possibility that you will get lightening results, as others have reported. I cannot guarantee that you will get them though.

ktani
April 8th, 2009, 07:03 AM
Are fireweed and Jarrah honeys that much more effective than other kinds? I have done about four honey treatments without much, if any, lightening. I'm thinking about ordering some fireweed or Jarrah honey, but wondering if it's worth the shipping costs.

I also recently posted this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567). Go over your method details too, with information here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096). There may be something you are missing in a detail.

sherigayle
April 8th, 2009, 08:48 AM
I just wanted to say thank you for all the work you've done on this thread. I'm growing out my grey hair and I wanted to lighten up the colored length to blend it in with the grey. It came out great. I can see some of my silvers shining through the color on the length and the overall shine is amazing. I used plain water and a grocery store brand of honey. I'll probably try it again with distilled water and different honey.

ktani
April 8th, 2009, 09:04 AM
I just wanted to say thank you for all the work you've done on this thread. I'm growing out my grey hair and I wanted to lighten up the colored length to blend it in with the grey. It came out great. I can see some of my silvers shining through the color on the length and the overall shine is amazing. I used plain water and a grocery store brand of honey. I'll probably try it again with distilled water and different honey.

You are most welcome and thank you for posting!

It can be "luck of the draw" (a gamble), when it comes to a honey and tap water. If your grocery store brand and your water work fine, there is no reason to change anything. For some others, finding a good honey for honey lightening has been a huge problem. Distilled water is the recommended choice, but if a tap water works well, then distilled water is not necessary.

ktani
April 8th, 2009, 06:07 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
April 9th, 2009, 08:02 AM
Notes on EVOO (Extra Virgin Olive Oil) PV is short for Peroxide Value
The PV is greatly reduced by the refining process used for most vegetable oils. Virgin olive oils are not exposed to such processes and the PVs permitted in these products are considerably higher. The IOOC and CAC standards permit extra-virgin olive oils to have PVs of up to 20 meq/kg, while pure olive oils, which by definition are blends of virgin and refined olive oils, must have PVs below 10 meq/kg. (http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm)

In other words, the peroxide value of a pure evoo is going to be higher than that of a blend of evoo and olive oil, which would be about that of coconut oil.

Here is one source for cardamom essential oil and they sell samples, as well as provide information. (http://www.100pureessentialoils.com/site/1562898/page/710050)

papillion
April 10th, 2009, 08:41 AM
Wow, this is such an interesting thread. I've spent ages reading it.

I have conventional highlights in my hair, and I love the colour that they give me, but I really don't want to carry on using such a harsh method.

Does anyone know how honey would interact with the highlights? Or do you think I would be best trying to avoid the highlighted areas when I do the honey treatment?

ktani
April 10th, 2009, 09:25 AM
Wow, this is such an interesting thread. I've spent ages reading it.

I have conventional highlights in my hair, and I love the colour that they give me, but I really don't want to carry on using such a harsh method.

Does anyone know how honey would interact with the highlights? Or do you think I would be best trying to avoid the highlighted areas when I do the honey treatment?

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

I hope that you read the first post of this thread before trying to tackle the whole thing, lol. Everything there is current.

As to your question, honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair from its peroxide in all 5 (including this one) Honey threads, and not to further damage already damaged hair, so your hi-lighted areas should be perfectly fine. They can get lighter with honey lightening and honey lightening has been reported to help remove any brassiness on hi-lights but it has not been reported to harm them at all.

papillion
April 10th, 2009, 09:58 AM
Yup, I've read the first post and all the ones linked from that. I haven't made it through the entire thread yet, but I'm going to attempt it! Think it may take me a while...

I'm fine with the highlights getting lighter, it was the damage I was worrying about, so I'm glad to know that it won't be an issue. And if the honey can get rid of the brassiness, or at least reduce it a little, I'll be so happy. Thanks for the help.

Hopefully I'll get the time to try it in the next week or so, and I'll post back with the results.

ktani
April 10th, 2009, 10:05 AM
Yup, I've read the first post and all the ones linked from that. I haven't made it through the entire thread yet, but I'm going to attempt it! Think it may take me a while...

I'm fine with the highlights getting lighter, it was the damage I was worrying about, so I'm glad to know that it won't be an issue. And if the honey can get rid of the brassiness, or at least reduce it a little, I'll be so happy. Thanks for the help.

Hopefully I'll get the time to try it in the next week or so, and I'll post back with the results.

Great! I look forward to your report.

The first part of the thread is about the old recipes, which were reported to work but much more slowly and have since all been replaced. I think that you will find honey lightening is very good option for the brassiness problem. It has a good track record for that, from all reports where it was used successfully (the honey used being a good one for honey lightening).

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 03:25 PM
A new recipe to try for hennaed hair

Outside of Finland, to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe, (Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553, recipe details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538, method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540), I suggest these options.

1. The best honey one can find for honey lightening. (Suggestions; Jarrah (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/The best honey one can find for honey lightening.) honey, Ambrosia Honey Co. honey, Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey available at Fred Meyer and Kroger stores). If a particular brand is unavailable, look for a dark coloured honey blend where you are, create your own blend, refer to this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)list, or try a honeydew honey (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575). Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. The essential oil used was pure essential oil of cardamom, not an extract which is diluted and usually contains alcohol.

3. A pure evoo (it will have a higher peroxide value than a blend of evoo and refined olive oil (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533046&postcount=3566))

4. Distilled water

5. powdered cinnamon

Heidi_234
April 11th, 2009, 04:03 PM
Ktani, could there be other EOs with even higher peroxide level?

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Ktani, could there be other EOs with even higher peroxide level?

Possibly but I have only researched the spice oils from the honey lightening recipes, cardamom and cinnamon. Cinnamon oil is a very powerful irritant and there is no indication I have found, that it has a peroxide value. Cardamom oil worked in that recipe and chewed cardamom seeds are reported to whiten teeth.

I am not planning on researching a list of EO's for this purpose.

Heidi_234
April 11th, 2009, 04:13 PM
Possibly but I have only researched the spice oils from the honey lightening recipes, cardamom and cinnamon. Cinnamon oil is a very powerful irritant and there is no indication I have found, that it has a peroxide value. Cardamom oil worked in that recipe and chewed cardamom seeds are reported to whiten teeth.

I am not planning on researching a list of EO's for this purpose.
I understand that, of course.
I tried to look for something, hoping to find a study or something that determines which EO (from the list of tested ones) has the highest peroxide value, but with very little luck, I have to admit. :(
What terms should I search it under? peroxide value, or peroxide content, or peroxide level? I'm not sure how it would be said in English.

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 04:25 PM
I understand that, of course.
I tried to look for something, hoping to find a study or something that determines which EO (from the list of tested ones) has the highest peroxide value, but with very little luck, I have to admit. :(
What terms should I search it under? peroxide value, or peroxide content, or peroxide level? I'm not sure how it would be said in English.

Ok, you got me curious. I just searched essential oil peroxide values and found this.

"The amount of total peroxide values of oils varied from 7.31 (pickling herb) to 58.23 (bitter fennel flower) μ (http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jmf.2008.0062)mol of H2O2/g. .... it is shown that medicinal plant derivatives such as extract and essential oils can be useful as a potential source of total phenol, peroxide, and antioxidant capacity for protection of processed foods." (http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/jmf.2008.0062)

Bitter fennel oil
"CAUTION: Can irritate sensitive skin. Due to its natural diruretic properties please avoid during pregnancy. Not for use by people with epilepsy." (http://ezinearticles.com/?Bitter-Fennel-Oil-Natural-Diuretic&id=528203)

It may just work!

Heidi_234
April 11th, 2009, 04:29 PM
I found this one too! But I got confused, because they stated that herb extracts had higher peroxide levels than essential oils, and then they mention the bitter fennel flower. Did they mean its EO or herb extract?
I also found out that licorice is used to lighten skin, but it doesn't help us as I never saw a licorice oil or EO lol.

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 04:31 PM
Here (http://www.mjcce.org.mk/PDF/20_1_141.pdf) is a pdf listing essential oil peroxide values but each oil with a high value will need to be reserched for safety.

Heidi_234
April 11th, 2009, 04:36 PM
Here (http://www.mjcce.org.mk/PDF/20_1_141.pdf) is a pdf listing essential oil peroxide values but each oil with a high value will need to be reserched for safety.
Tell me if I'm wrong but they all seem to be thyme species, don't they? :confused:

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 04:39 PM
I found this one too! But I got confused, because they stated that herb extracts had higher peroxide levels than essential oils, and then they mention the bitter fennel flower. Did they mean its EO or herb extract?
I also found out that licorice is used to lighten skin, but it doesn't help us as I never saw a licorice oil or EO lol.

Post the link that confused you. I will have a look and see if I can understand it. They can be confusing. I have to reread the material several times, sometimes, depending on how it is written.

Heidi_234
April 11th, 2009, 04:44 PM
In the pdf you linked, they say:

Antioxidant activity of fifteen essential oils of Thymus L. (Lamiaceae) that are growing wild in Republic of Macedonia was investigated.
I understand they checked various types of the same Thymus species, which I thought was thyme (they list "wild thyme" in the keywords). There are many kinds of thyme, so it made sense to me.

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 04:51 PM
In the pdf you linked, they say:

I understand they checked various types of the same Thymus species, which I thought was thyme (they list "wild thyme" in the keywords). There are many kinds of thyme, so it made sense to me.

No, you are not wrong they are all different species of thyme with different peroxide oil values. Some plant families have many species and they all have differences. Catnip is one of those, as an example.

It comes down to the safety of each species oil and the availability, for this purpose.

Heidi_234
April 11th, 2009, 04:53 PM
Can this be actually related to your peroxide thread?

Clove essential oil and eugenol displayed intense
activity in both tests, suggesting that their
antioxidant activity is related both, to enzymatic
mechanisms and to free radical scavenging
activity.
Ginger essential oil has also strong inhibition of
ROS production, suggesting that their antioxidant
activity is only related to enzymatic mechanisms.
http://www.lidervet.com/Pdf/antioxidant_eleven_essential_oils.pdf

I got confused. Some pages say peroxide is what makes the EOs anti-whatever, some say that high peroxide value indicates EO that is not 'fresh', some say that EOs scavenge free radicals and hydrogen peroxide activity. I'm lost.
I should go to sleep.

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 04:57 PM
Can this be actually related to your peroxide thread?

http://www.lidervet.com/Pdf/antioxidant_eleven_essential_oils.pdf

I got confused. Some pages say peroxide is what makes the EOs anti-whatever, some say that high peroxide value indicates EO that is not 'fresh', some say that EOs scavenge free radicals and hydrogen peroxide activity. I'm lost.
I should go to sleep.

The peroxide value of an oil can indicate whether the oil has gone rancid. That is why only certain peroxide values are allowed for fresh oils because over time, that value will increase.

Antioxidants from plants and oils can scavenge free radicals and work against or are oxidized by the peroxide produced (like too much Vitamin C), depleting it by doing so.

Heidi_234
April 11th, 2009, 05:03 PM
The peroxide value of an oil can indicate whether the oil has gone rancid. That is why only certain peroxide values are allowed for fresh oils because over time, that value will increase.

Antioxidants from plants and oils can scavenge free radicals and work against or are oxidized by the peroxide produced (like too much Vitamin C), depleting it by doing so.
Okay, I think I got you. Thanks for the explanation. Anyway, I'm really going to sleep. :)

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 05:13 PM
Heidi 34

The link you posted is concerned with the antoxidant activity of the oils. So were the ones I posted but they listed oil peroxide values. The antioxidants which can be isolated and added to foods and other oils help preserve the food, by keeping the peroxide levels low, so the food does not spoil as quickly.

Here is the original list of spices where the ground spices would also include an oil content. (http://books.google.com/books?id=tnH1bFGKuRoC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=pov+of+cardamom&source=bl&ots=LVkk6D3WpU&sig=DhW4d4LD3uGPjPJzck10VvCcycI&hl=en&ei=8xXhScKuCYnAM_Or_YkJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1) Cardamom has the highest peroxide value on this list.

ktani
April 11th, 2009, 08:28 PM
Can this be actually related to your peroxide thread?

http://www.lidervet.com/Pdf/antioxidant_eleven_essential_oils.pdf

I got confused. Some pages say peroxide is what makes the EOs anti-whatever, some say that high peroxide value indicates EO that is not 'fresh', some say that EOs scavenge free radicals and hydrogen peroxide activity. I'm lost.
I should go to sleep.

Clove oil can chelate iron but so can the antioxidants in a number of oils. Clove oil can also add a colour of its own to a mixture.

2006
".... essential oil also showed a significant inhibitory effect against hydroxyl radicals and acted as an iron chelator. With respect to the lipid peroxidation, the inhibitory activity of clove oil .... indicated a higher antioxidant activity than the standard BHT." (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf060608c)

Coconut oil chelates iron is conditioning to hair, can be used in quantity, is non toxic and does not have these cautions.

2008
"Side Effects and Warnings (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-clove.html#Safety)
Clove is generally regarded as safe for food use in the United States. .... when clove is taken by mouth in large doses, in its undiluted oil form, or used in clove cigarettes, side effects may occur including vomiting, sore throat, seizure, sedation, difficulty breathing, fluid in the lungs, vomiting of blood, blood disorders, kidney failure, and liver damage or failure. People with kidney or liver disorders or who have had seizures should avoid clove. Serious side effects are reported more often in young children, even with small doses, and therefore clove supplements should be avoided in children and pregnant or nursing women. (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-clove.html#Safety)
Clove or clove oil may cause an increased bleeding risk, based largely on laboratory research. Caution is advised in patients with bleeding disorders or taking drugs that may increase the risk of bleeding. Dosing adjustments may be necessary. It is not clear what doses or methods of using clove may increase this risk. Clove use should be stopped before surgery. (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-clove.html#Safety)
When applied to the skin or inside of the mouth, clove can cause burning, loss of sensation or painful sensation, local tissue damage, dental pulp damage, higher risk of cavities, or sore lips. Undiluted clove oil has a high risk of causing contact dermatitis (rash) and even burns if applied to the skin at full strength." (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-clove.html#Safety)

Ginger antioxidants
2009
".... results suggested that the substituents on the alkyl chain might contribute to both radical scavenging effect and inhibitory effect of autoxidation of oils" (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121573808/abstract)

There is nothing to suggest that either clove or ginger offer anything more that coconut oil and argan oil can as a pretreatment before convention hair colour or lightening.

Heidi_234
April 12th, 2009, 12:49 AM
Hey ktani, but these EOs (or others, not the clover I suppose due to coloring) could be mixed with the coconut oil and or with the argan oil for "scavenging boost". I didn't mean to use them instead, of course.

ktani
April 12th, 2009, 07:09 AM
Hey ktani, but these EOs (or others, not the clover I suppose due to coloring) could be mixed with the coconut oil and or with the argan oil for "scavenging boost". I didn't mean to use them instead, of course.

They could but they are not necessary (they do not add enough extra chelating properties), do not offer extra conditioning and may add irritant properties or cautions to the recipe (scalps are already at risk of irritation from the conventional chemicals and skin absoption could be an issue too), depending on the EO. I do not see an advantage in using them. Some are oleoresins as well, which means that they can add a coating to the hair and possibly interfere with lightening and dye uptake or affect colour. They may need to be used in some quantity to be effective and that is why I eliminated spices early on from the recipes.

Heidi_234
April 12th, 2009, 09:59 AM
okay I understand. Thanks for the explanation.

ktani
April 12th, 2009, 10:46 AM
okay I understand. Thanks for the explanation.

You are most welcome.

Ramona_Fosca
April 12th, 2009, 04:37 PM
I have tried the recommended formula but really could not stand the wet, dripping feeling on my head for long. Now I've been thinking of trying the coconut cream/ honey version, so I bought some coconut cream.

Ingredients are: coconut , hydrogenated fat.

As a rule I keep hydrogenated fats out of my house... Is my honey- mixture going to be an exeption to that rule or did I get the wrong product ? :confused:

Thanks in advance!

ktani
April 12th, 2009, 04:51 PM
I have tried the recommended formula but really could not stand the wet, dripping feeling on my head for long. Now I've been thinking of trying the coconut cream/ honey version, so I bought some coconut cream.

Ingredients are: coconut , hydrogenated fat.

As a rule I keep hydrogenated fats out of my house... Is my honey- mixture going to be an exeption to that rule or did I get the wrong product ? :confused:

Thanks in advance!

Coconut cream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_cream) is just coconut made with less water than coconut milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_milk) and not hydrogenated fat.

Those recipes were reported to work but were also reported to be very slow in lightening. Some Coconut cream (http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3111/2)contains Vitamin C and minerals, which all work aganist the peroxide in the recipe.

Dachsdragon
April 12th, 2009, 09:24 PM
Im sorry if this has already been asked, but do you wash your hair (shampoo and or condition) prior to using the honey mixture or is it better to put it on hair that hasnt been washed?

ktani
April 13th, 2009, 12:05 AM
Im sorry if this has already been asked, but do you wash your hair (shampoo and or condition) prior to using the honey mixture or is it better to put it on hair that hasnt been washed?

No worries!

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

It would be best for you if you started here, with this post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1).

This is from the 3rd link under START HERE. Reading over the first post gives you a better idea of how honey lightening works and then you can just keep up with the most current posts.

"10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of some types of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method." (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096)

Ramona_Fosca
April 13th, 2009, 01:57 AM
Coconut cream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_cream) is just coconut made with less water than coconut milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_milk) and not hydrogenated fat.

Those recipes were reported to work but were also reported to be very slow in lightening. Some Coconut cream (http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/nut-and-seed-products/3111/2)contains Vitamin C and minerals, which all work aganist the peroxide in the recipe.

Thank you very much, ktani! I guess I'll give the standard recipe another go, than:rolleyes:

Thanks for all the work you put in here - it really gives me hope in my struggle against the urge to chemically highlight my hair...

ktani
April 13th, 2009, 02:02 AM
Thank you very much, ktani! I guess I'll give the standard recipe another go, than:rolleyes:

Thanks for all the work you put in here - it really gives me hope in my struggle against the urge to chemically highlight my hair...

You are most welcome! Did you see this report?

BranwenWolf - honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506

If you do give in to your urge, check out the 2nd link in my signature. It may help.

Dachsdragon
April 13th, 2009, 03:24 AM
No worries!

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

It would be best for you if you started here, with this post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1).

This is from the 3rd link under START HERE. Reading over the first post gives you a better idea of how honey lightening works and then you can just keep up with the most current posts.

"10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of some types of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method." (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096)

Thank you :) Ill give it a go.

ljkforu
April 13th, 2009, 05:49 AM
Ktani can you think of any reason that someone can't use guar or xanthan gum to thicken the honey mixture to a jel for application and lack of runniness.

We have dealt with the running with a plastic shower cap from the dollar store and then a heavy towel. Wash around the edges and you are good to go.

ktani
April 13th, 2009, 07:23 AM
Ktani can you think of any reason that someone can't use guar or xanthan gum to thicken the honey mixture to a jel for application and lack of runniness.

We have dealt with the running with a plastic shower cap from the dollar store and then a heavy towel. Wash around the edges and you are good to go.

Yes, I can. From the first post.

"I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with strong oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and can deplete or negatively interact, with the peroxide levels of honey lightening recipes, IMO." (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=280629&postcount=2277)

ljkforu
April 13th, 2009, 06:01 PM
That is too bad.

ktani
April 13th, 2009, 06:06 PM
That is too bad.

Not really. The recipes can work quite well. Depending on the length of hair, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of water, distilled or not, may work just fine and there will be less drips. Saran (cling wrap), under a lycra swm cap has also been reported to drip less and keep hair wet enough for a successful honey lightening treatment.

ljkforu
April 13th, 2009, 06:17 PM
I had no problem with funk2lopez's treatment and we justed used a shower cap and a towel. Her results were on the high end -- again good honey and water with lots of fresh cardamom and cinnamon.

ktani
April 13th, 2009, 06:21 PM
I had no problem with funk2lopez's treatment and we justed used a shower cap and a towel. Her results were on the high end -- again good honey and water with lots of fresh cardamom and cinnamon.

There you go. The 1 hour timing makes it easier too. A treatment can be left on the hair longer but 1 hour seems to be a good time, based on reports.

ktani
April 15th, 2009, 10:22 AM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043) of just honey and water results.

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html) is a conversion link. Or you can just use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of distilled water, 2 to 12 etc.

Here are pictures (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906) of results with the new dilution.

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

Fethenwen
April 15th, 2009, 12:04 PM
I think I will give another treatment a go soon. I was thinking, if adding hot boiled water to the cinnamon powder and maybe ground it a bit more, would it get the cinnamon juices going and be more potent?
I would then let it cool and then put it in the honey mixture. Maybe this could be done with cardamom also.

ktani
April 15th, 2009, 12:08 PM
I think I will give another treatment a go soon. I was thinking, if adding hot boiled water to the cinnamon powder and maybe ground it a bit more, would it get the cinnamon juices going and be more potent?
I would then let it cool and then put it in the honey mixture. Maybe this could be done with cardamom also.

It will have the opposite effect. heat, high heat in particular, depletes peroxide, natural peroxide in particular.

"5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096) (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Store (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096) your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably."

Fethenwen
April 16th, 2009, 12:08 AM
Aaah, so cinnamon has natural peroxide in it too? Or is it just a peroxide booster?

lynnala
April 16th, 2009, 11:16 PM
Hi Ktani! I know this is probably somewhere in this thread...I was reading the thread on what people use to get shine to their hair and many people mentioned honey. What would you recommend as a "honey gloss" treatment? Thank in advance!

Heidi_234
April 18th, 2009, 09:41 AM
Hey, just in for a quick update - I decided to do little experiment. I'm going to try lighten my virgin roots with honey. I'll do it for few months before my root touch up, and I guess as the pre-lightened length will grow longer I'll be able to see if it makes the henna brighter for me. Today is my first lightening.
Heidi. :blossom:

ktani
April 21st, 2009, 12:20 PM
Aaah, so cinnamon has natural peroxide in it too? Or is it just a peroxide booster?


All of the honey lightening recipe ingredients have peroxide producing capabilities, the level depends on the product.

This (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370) is from the first post of this this read. I recommend that everyone start there.

ktani
April 21st, 2009, 12:22 PM
Hey, just in for a quick update - I decided to do little experiment. I'm going to try lighten my virgin roots with honey. I'll do it for few months before my root touch up, and I guess as the pre-lightened length will grow longer I'll be able to see if it makes the henna brighter for me. Today is my first lightening.
Heidi. :blossom:

Good luck and please update.

ktani
April 21st, 2009, 12:24 PM
While my computer is out for repairs, I have limited access to another. Please see the first post of this thread. I haved worked hard so that it should have almost all answers to most questions. The answers there are based on reports in this thread plus research.

ktani
April 21st, 2009, 12:27 PM
Hi Ktani! I know this is probably somewhere in this thread...I was reading the thread on what people use to get shine to their hair and many people mentioned honey. What would you recommend as a "honey gloss" treatment? Thank in advance!


A traditional gloss is "whatever" and conditioner. You can do the same with honey or add some oil to it. Microwave the honey first for 30 seconds to 1 minute in advance only if you are going to dilute it, to prevent the possibility of lightening. Honey is not diluted by oil, because oil contains no warter.

lynnala
April 21st, 2009, 12:52 PM
A traditional gloss is "whatever" and conditioner. You can do the same with honey or add some oil to it. Microwave the honey first for 30 seconds to 1 minute in advance only if you are going to dilute it, to prevent the possibility of lightening. Honey is not diluted by oil, because oil contains no warter.Thank you! Good luck with the computer repair.

ktani
April 21st, 2009, 12:54 PM
Thank you! Good luck with the computer repair.

You are most welcome and thank you!

Heidi_234
April 21st, 2009, 01:43 PM
Good luck and please update.
I did it.
I decided as part of my 'keep everything away from my scalp as much as possible' (ie less washing with any cleanser and more WO), that I can WO the honey out. That was not entirely true, the day after I did the honey lightening (shooting it straight to the roots with a root shooter thing) my hair was very stiff, and I thought I'd have to wash it again the day after (even though I don't wash my hair so often). But the next day, when I already planned my wash, I found out that my hair became really really soft and tamed, and it was so soft I didn't went to the pool (where I planned to wash my hair, as it would get chlorine in it anyway), so that I could keep my soft hair. :p
It is still soft, and it's considerably straighter and more tamed nearer the roots (I didn't applied the honey lightening mix to my length).
As for the lightening - I think it's little bit lighter. I have no way to check, but there is something I'm certain about though. I had about 1/2" of virgin roots, and line between them and the hennaed hair was pretty well defined and seen. But now, after the treatment the line is really blurred, I can barely notice where the virgin roots turn into hennaed hair. I hope that this lightening would make the difference eventually. :pray:
So, in conclusion, honey lightening made my hair super soft. And if anybody decides to grow out color/henna, doing it helps mask and blur the root line. :)

tessleopard
April 22nd, 2009, 12:16 AM
I know this thread is predominantly about the use of honey to lighten, and I don't mean to be a wicked post hijacker, but...
I've read that honey, if heated, (for example microwaving for a SMT) loses its peroxide-releasing capability. I'm not looking to lighten my hair right now, but I feel that lightening is not honey's only benefit. If i were to heat honey before use, would I still gain its other good qualities, minus the lightening effect?

Heidi_234
April 22nd, 2009, 01:03 AM
I know this thread is predominantly about the use of honey to lighten, and I don't mean to be a wicked post hijacker, but...
I've read that honey, if heated, (for example microwaving for a SMT) loses its peroxide-releasing capability. I'm not looking to lighten my hair right now, but I feel that lightening is not honey's only benefit. If i were to heat honey before use, would I still gain its other good qualities, minus the lightening effect?
Hey, this thread says "Honey thread" in the title, and even though the main topic for the most part is honey lightening, it won't be a hijack to talk everything honey in it. In fact, occasionally some other honey-related topics come up here, so don't worry. :flower:
Yes, heating honey in the microwave destroys the enzyme that produces the peroxide. It's a common recommendation (and method commonly used), to heat up the honey if you want to use it for conditioning but afraid it would lighten your hair. If I remember correctly the recommended time is 30 seconds up to 1 minute, but I'm not 100 positive.
So to answer your question - yes, heat the honey and you'll get the conditioning without the risk of lightening. :)

zombi
April 22nd, 2009, 03:02 AM
I know this thread is predominantly about the use of honey to lighten, and I don't mean to be a wicked post hijacker, but...
I've read that honey, if heated, (for example microwaving for a SMT) loses its peroxide-releasing capability. I'm not looking to lighten my hair right now, but I feel that lightening is not honey's only benefit. If i were to heat honey before use, would I still gain its other good qualities, minus the lightening effect?

I just wanted to say thanks for asking this, I was kind of afraid to but was wondering the same thing!

So, basically, if I just microwave the honey for 30seconds to a minute before I mix it with conditioner or something, it will condition but NOT lighten my hair?

Rapunzal2Be
April 22nd, 2009, 03:57 AM
Just a question here - I am trying to both condition [and hopefully lighten] may hair a bit to either get it to my desired shade or prepare it for chemical coloring without too much damage.

Anyway, I prepared a rediculous amount of honey/water mixture and have a LOT left over. How long can I keep it and does it lose its lightening capability after a certain amount of time? If so, will it still be good to condition for a while? Or do I have to toss it after a short amount of time?

Thanks!

Rapunzal2Be
April 22nd, 2009, 11:58 AM
I'm really new here, so I hope it is okay for me to post my results, too? I was really excited to give this a try.

I am debating lightening my hair a few shades with chemical color, but decided to try honey lightening to see what it was all about first.

I heavily oiled and did a Nioxin foam on my scalp last night and this morning washed with Suave Daily Clarifying and Jason Scalp Normalizing and then did a Cholesterol hot oil treatment. (I am trying also to remove the semi-permanent color I have on to even up my previously colored blonde length and my darker roots.)

I mixed up the honey with the new ratio - 1/4 cup honey to 1 1/2 cups water - I used bottled, but not distilled water (what I had on hand). I let it sit for an hour. Then I drenched my hair with the honey mix, put a shower cap on, towel over it to catch the drips, and let it sit for an hour or so.

Then I had to go out and didn't want to rinse, so I put my hair up and let it dry (very crunchy, but I didn't disturb it).

When I got home I saturated my hair again with the rest of my mixture, put my cap and towel back on, and left it for another hour.

Rinsed, used VO5 Kiwi conditioner, and let it air dry.

Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/DanielleD1/Photo165.jpg

After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/DanielleD1/Photo190.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/DanielleD1/Photo189.jpg

It dried very soft, and a lot fluffier than I'm used to, but I think that is because it is now clarified and moisturized vs. my usual 'cones.

I see a difference, but admit that most of my hair was colored blonde underneath about three or four layers of semi-perm darker color - so it may also just be a case of stripping off some of the dark color.

Overall, I'm very happy with this technique! :cheer::cheer:

I will continue doing the honey as much as I can to see how light I can get. I'll report back with progress. I'm still unsure as to whether I'll follow up with chemical lightening, we'll see how this progresses. :D

mellie
April 28th, 2009, 07:38 AM
Just wanted to post that I ordered some of the Laney alfalfa honey that worked so well for me in the past. It should be arriving today. I'm going to try another non-lightening, conditioning only treatment! I'll post my results.

miesneito
April 30th, 2009, 11:25 AM
I need a bit of help!

I've been hennaing my hair for almost three years now. Last time was on Monday (with my usual Tanzanian henna + some chamomile tea). Here's three photos from yesterday to show how it looked before I did anything:
http://i44.tinypic.com/1zl583r.jpg

Since it has started to look burgundy (especially in certain light as you can see on the left), I decided to experiment on the honey lightening recipes. I was delighted to see Fethenwen's amazing pics and since I live in Finland too, tried to replicate her method, only I made a "double dose" since the final amount looked so tiny. :D
So basically what I tried to spread over my hair last night (after an hour of sitting) was a mix of 4 tablespoons of honey (the SAM Italian forest honey variety) + 4 drops of cardamom essential oil + 2 tablespoons of EVOO + 24 tablespoons of sterile water (from a pharmacy, couldn't find distilled water). The only thing from the original recipe I did not add was the cinnamon. I put on a shower cap and a small towel (to control the dripping - now I'm wondering if it generated too much heat, but I can't remember my head feeling warm at all) and let it stay for an hour. And then tried to wash it off. I used a very mild conditioner for washing, and I think I tried thrice before I gave up. The EVOO is stuck on my hair! Since my hair is totally "oily" right now, I can't even tell if there was any lightening, because it just looks wet and dark.

This is my hair right now, ~18 hours after I washed the honey mix out:
http://i44.tinypic.com/r6zokj.jpg
:shake:


First of all: how can I get the EVOO out? I need to look somewhat decent this weekend! :couch:
And next time I try, should I use something else? Is it possible that EVOO and my hair just don't belong together (I remember reading somewhere in these boards about different hair types and oils...), or was it the amount that I used? I thought that it was okay to increase/decrease the recipes as long as the ratios stayed the same?

Heidi_234
April 30th, 2009, 11:43 AM
miesneito, CO would be your best bet to get oils out of your hair. Try to leave to conditioner in for a little longer, let it take care of the oil. Despite that 2 tbs if EVOO doesn't look like too much to me. Maybe my hair tolerates oils better than your though (probably actually!).
Anyway, at first I saw the pictures I though "whoa you've got some serious lightening success going on there" but then I read that it is like that before you did anything. :lol:

ktani
May 1st, 2009, 09:48 AM
Just a question here - I am trying to both condition [and hopefully lighten] may hair a bit to either get it to my desired shade or prepare it for chemical coloring without too much damage.

Anyway, I prepared a rediculous amount of honey/water mixture and have a LOT left over. How long can I keep it and does it lose its lightening capability after a certain amount of time? If so, will it still be good to condition for a while? Or do I have to toss it after a short amount of time?

Thanks!

The peroxide will decline in potency after a certain amount of time but that depends on the honey. Some people have repoerted that a batch has been ok, (refridgerated) for a couple of days. I would not keep it longer than that.

ktani
May 1st, 2009, 09:58 AM
miesneito, CO would be your best bet to get oils out of your hair. Try to leave to conditioner in for a little longer, let it take care of the oil. Despite that 2 tbs if EVOO doesn't look like too much to me. Maybe my hair tolerates oils better than your though (probably actually!).
Anyway, at first I saw the pictures I though "whoa you've got some serious lightening success going on there" but then I read that it is like that before you did anything. :lol:


Thank you for helping out Heidi!

ktani
May 1st, 2009, 10:05 AM
I need a bit of help!

I've been hennaing my hair for almost three years now. Last time was on Monday (with my usual Tanzanian henna + some chamomile tea). Here's three photos from yesterday to show how it looked before I did anything:
http://i44.tinypic.com/1zl583r.jpg

Since it has started to look burgundy (especially in certain light as you can see on the left), I decided to experiment on the honey lightening recipes. I was delighted to see Fethenwen's amazing pics and since I live in Finland too, tried to replicate her method, only I made a "double dose" since the final amount looked so tiny. :D
So basically what I tried to spread over my hair last night (after an hour of sitting) was a mix of 4 tablespoons of honey (the SAM Italian forest honey variety) + 4 drops of cardamom essential oil + 2 tablespoons of EVOO + 24 tablespoons of sterile water (from a pharmacy, couldn't find distilled water). The only thing from the original recipe I did not add was the cinnamon. I put on a shower cap and a small towel (to control the dripping - now I'm wondering if it generated too much heat, but I can't remember my head feeling warm at all) and let it stay for an hour. And then tried to wash it off. I used a very mild conditioner for washing, and I think I tried thrice before I gave up. The EVOO is stuck on my hair! Since my hair is totally "oily" right now, I can't even tell if there was any lightening, because it just looks wet and dark.

This is my hair right now, ~18 hours after I washed the honey mix out:
http://i44.tinypic.com/r6zokj.jpg
:shake:


First of all: how can I get the EVOO out? I need to look somewhat decent this weekend! :couch:
And next time I try, should I use something else? Is it possible that EVOO and my hair just don't belong together (I remember reading somewhere in these boards about different hair types and oils...), or was it the amount that I used? I thought that it was okay to increase/decrease the recipes as long as the ratios stayed the same?

Thank you so much for your report and pictures. I think that you should stay with Fethenwen's original recipe or closer to it even if you need to double it for your hair length and thickness.

I agree with Heidi34. Try more conditioner and leave it on longer to help remove the oil. The recommended amount of oil (coconut or evoo) is 1 tablespoon maximum per time, because oil can be difficult to wash out of hair. That would mean that you would need to use less essential oil but you would also have less problems with the recipe.

I look forward to an update from you on how things go. I will try to get online more often but I am still without a home computer for the moment.

ktani
May 1st, 2009, 10:31 AM
I did it.
I decided as part of my 'keep everything away from my scalp as much as possible' (ie less washing with any cleanser and more WO), that I can WO the honey out. That was not entirely true, the day after I did the honey lightening (shooting it straight to the roots with a root shooter thing) my hair was very stiff, and I thought I'd have to wash it again the day after (even though I don't wash my hair so often). But the next day, when I already planned my wash, I found out that my hair became really really soft and tamed, and it was so soft I didn't went to the pool (where I planned to wash my hair, as it would get chlorine in it anyway), so that I could keep my soft hair. :p
It is still soft, and it's considerably straighter and more tamed nearer the roots (I didn't applied the honey lightening mix to my length).
As for the lightening - I think it's little bit lighter. I have no way to check, but there is something I'm certain about though. I had about 1/2" of virgin roots, and line between them and the hennaed hair was pretty well defined and seen. But now, after the treatment the line is really blurred, I can barely notice where the virgin roots turn into hennaed hair. I hope that this lightening would make the difference eventually. :pray:
So, in conclusion, honey lightening made my hair super soft. And if anybody decides to grow out color/henna, doing it helps mask and blur the root line. :)

Great news about the blurred roots to length line of demarkation! I am very pleased for you.

I also appreciate your helping out with questions and you are correct, it is 30 seconds to under 1 minute for microwaving honey to prevent the possibility of any lightening.

ktani
May 1st, 2009, 10:43 AM
I think that I missed this topic in a pm. Honey lightening can include cassia added to the mix and not have the recipe add colour to the hair. Here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332) is a thread on cassia and honey lightening and how to avoid added colur and remove added colour caused by cassia.

Cassia added to a honey lightening recipe has been reported to give the benefits of cassia consitioning but it is important to remember that it is a honey lightening treatment with cassia, and not a cassia treatment with honey.

ktani
May 1st, 2009, 10:52 AM
I'm really new here, so I hope it is okay for me to post my results, too? I was really excited to give this a try.

I am debating lightening my hair a few shades with chemical color, but decided to try honey lightening to see what it was all about first.

1. I heavily oiled and did a Nioxin foam on my scalp last night and this morning washed with Suave Daily Clarifying and Jason Scalp Normalizing and then did a Cholesterol hot oil treatment. (I am trying also to remove the semi-permanent color I have on to even up my previously colored blonde length and my darker roots.)

I mixed up the honey with the new ratio - 1/4 cup honey to 1 1/2 cups water - I used bottled, but not distilled water (what I had on hand). I let it sit for an hour. Then I drenched my hair with the honey mix, put a shower cap on, towel over it to catch the drips, and let it sit for an hour or so.

Then I had to go out and didn't want to rinse, so I put my hair up and let it dry (very crunchy, but I didn't disturb it).

When I got home I saturated my hair again with the rest of my mixture, put my cap and towel back on, and left it for another hour.

Rinsed, used VO5 Kiwi conditioner, and let it air dry.

Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/DanielleD1/Photo165.jpg

After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/DanielleD1/Photo190.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v318/DanielleD1/Photo189.jpg

It dried very soft, and a lot fluffier than I'm used to, but I think that is because it is now clarified and moisturized vs. my usual 'cones.

I see a difference, but admit that most of my hair was colored blonde underneath about three or four layers of semi-perm darker color - so it may also just be a case of stripping off some of the dark color.

Overall, I'm very happy with this technique! :cheer::cheer:

I will continue doing the honey as much as I can to see how light I can get. I'll report back with progress. I'm still unsure as to whether I'll follow up with chemical lightening, we'll see how this progresses. :D

Thank you for the report and pictures! I am pleased that you are pleased with results so far.

1. "I heavily oiled and did a Nioxin foam on my scalp last night and this morning washed with Suave Daily Clarifying and Jason Scalp Normalizing and then did a Cholesterol hot oil treatment. (I am trying also to remove the semi-permanent color I have on to even up my previously colored blonde length and my darker roots.)"

Doing the cholesterol treatment (if I read you correctly) immediately before honey lightening is not a good idea to me. I would simply clarify with a shampoo for normal hair or your Suave shampoo, then honey lighten, then CO the treatment out next time.

I think that even though you got results this time the cholesterol treatment may have acted as a barrier to the honey lighrening having as much of an effect as it may otherwise have done.

I look forward to your updates!

ktani
May 1st, 2009, 10:57 AM
Just wanted to post that I ordered some of the Laney alfalfa honey that worked so well for me in the past. It should be arriving today. I'm going to try another non-lightening, conditioning only treatment! I'll post my results.


Great mellie! I look forward to reading your report!

ktani
May 1st, 2009, 11:03 AM
I know this thread is predominantly about the use of honey to lighten, and I don't mean to be a wicked post hijacker, but...


Welcome to LHC and Honey!

All honey related questions are welcome anytime! I will answer other questions too, lol (I am the worst hijacker of this thread)

The recommended time to microwave honey is 30 seconds to under 1 minute, as Heidi34 replied!

Rapunzal2Be
May 2nd, 2009, 05:36 AM
I think that I missed this topic in a pm. Honey lightening can include cassia added to the mix and not have the recipe add colour to the hair. Here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332) is a thread on cassia and honey lightening and how to avoid added colur and remove added colour caused by cassia.

Cassia added to a honey lightening recipe has been reported to give the benefits of cassia consitioning but it is important to remember that it is a honey lightening treatment with cassia, and not a cassia treatment with honey.

Ktani,

Thank you so much for posting this answer!

I will definitely be trying out the honey lightening recipe with cinnamon, EVOO and Cassia as soon as I can get my hands on some cassia.

mellie
May 3rd, 2009, 04:47 PM
I did another honey non-lightening treatment today, with the Laney brand alfalfa honey that I was so successful with in the past!

Here's my results (FYI - my hair is unwashed in the After photo, I just rinsed the honey out with water; ETA: actually my hair is unwashed in both pics, LOL!):

Before/After:

http://home.comcast.net/~ttudek/pwpimages/DSCN2360.jpghttp://home.comcast.net/~ttudek/pwpimages/DSCN2364.jpg

After: 1 c. boiling water & 1/4 c. honey left to sit until cool, approx. 15 minutes, with just a splash of lime juice added, left on for 1 hour.

If there is any difference when I wash tomorrow, I'll post pics!

I don't know if I notice much difference...maybe it's a bit softer & wavier, but not necessarily much shinier. Hopefully when I wash it will be more obvious! :-)

P.S. Sorry the second pic is kind of blurry - I've been having issues with the camera....or else I am becoming blurry as I get older?? :D

Rapunzal2Be
May 4th, 2009, 02:46 AM
Mellie,

I'm confused - are you looking for the lightening or just conditioning? Because if I understand the instructions right, your honey needs to stay away from heat in order to produce is peroxide, so the boiling water may have negated that...unless you weren't going for lightening in the first place, in which case just simply ignore me! :D

Fethenwen
May 4th, 2009, 03:54 AM
Rhubarbs are starting to grow here again, and I was wondering if I would experiment with lightening my hair a bit with that. But I do wonder if honey added to the mixture would make it more effective and moisturizing? I plan to make a rhubarb-honey-lemon-mixture, with the cardamom EO and cinnamon.

zombi
May 4th, 2009, 03:57 AM
I'm confused - are you looking for the lightening or just conditioning?

here you go...


I did another honey non-lightening treatment today, with the Laney brand alfalfa honey that I was so successful with in the past!

I can't wait to see if you have much difference! I'm really dying to try honey conditioning for my hair; I've got some local honey, I assume that it will work just fine for this (non-lightening) treatments I want to do. What's the purpose of the lime juice? You did just honey + water + bit of lime, right?

mellie
May 4th, 2009, 05:52 AM
Yes, that's right, I wanted conditioning only, not lightening.

And yes, it was just honey, water and a splash of lime juice. The reason I put the lime juice in is because when I did honey lightening treatments in the past, and my hair got SOOOO shiny, :cheer: , I had put some lemon juice in it. So I thought I would try to reproduce that, just minus the lightening.

miesneito
May 4th, 2009, 04:59 PM
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I finally got the EVOO out by washing first with conditioner, then with shampoo and again with conditioner. I don't see much of a difference in the colour, so I do want to try again. What I gathered from here is that I can double the amount of honey & water, but I should keep the EVOO to 1 tablespoon and the cardamom EO to two drops. I'm still wondering whether I could replace EVOO with some other oil, though. I haven't experimented with oiling much in general, mostly because I've never felt my hair needs that. I've only tried to oil the ends a couple of times. I'm just wondering whether there's another oil that might be more suitable for my hair type that wouldn't mess with the honey in a wrong way. Any ideas? Is there a particular reason why olive oil was chosen for this recipe?

mellie
May 4th, 2009, 07:39 PM
FYI, here's a Before/After my non-lightening honey treatment, after I've washed my hair:

http://home.comcast.net/~ttudek/pwpimages/DSCN2360.jpghttp://home.comcast.net/~ttudek/pwpimages/DSCN2377.jpg

It does seem shinier, doesn't it? Of course, it could just be the flash and the slightly different angle. It doesn't seem any shinier in person though, and actually a bit "roughed up".

zombi
May 4th, 2009, 08:08 PM
girl, that photo makes it look like a bazillion times shinier. I wonder why it looks more roughed up in person? Hmmm. You know, the logistics/chemistry of hair and herbal treatments are endlessly interesting to me. I'm diving into my first herbal test with henna/cassia tomorrow, and after I do that I'll probably test this. :eyebrows:

Lissa
May 5th, 2009, 04:27 AM
I've done two honey treatments about two weeks apart, one with conditioner in the mix and one without. I used EVOO in both, and left it in for 1 hour the first time and 2 hours the second. The first time I only rinsed with water and had some trouble getting it all out, and my hair looked a little dirty afterwards. The second time I did a CWC to rinse and it went fine. I think I can see a change in the colour, more the second time than the first, and might post pictures later. Overall I'm very pleased with the colour and the conditioning and shine :)

mellie
May 5th, 2009, 06:29 AM
Thanks Zombi! :-) Yes, it's weird - in person it didn't really look any better, just like I said, kind of "roughed up", if you know what I mean. I think a lot of it had to do with the angle of the picture - my DH took the 2nd one, so it was from a higher angle (since he's taller) and so the flash reflected differently. If you look at the first pic, you can see it is actually pretty shiny in the first pic, too. And in person it seemed smoother before the honey. So I don't think I'll do it any more.

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 12:07 AM
Ktani,

Thank you so much for posting this answer!

I will definitely be trying out the honey lightening recipe with cinnamon, EVOO and Cassia as soon as I can get my hands on some cassia.

You are most welcome!

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 12:17 AM
I did another honey non-lightening treatment today, with the Laney brand alfalfa honey that I was so successful with in the past!

Here's my results (FYI - my hair is unwashed in the After photo, I just rinsed the honey out with water; ETA: actually my hair is unwashed in both pics, LOL!):

Before/After:

http://home.comcast.net/~ttudek/pwpimages/DSCN2360.jpghttp://home.comcast.net/~ttudek/pwpimages/DSCN2364.jpg

After: 1 c. boiling water & 1/4 c. honey left to sit until cool, approx. 15 minutes, with just a splash of lime juice added, left on for 1 hour.

If there is any difference when I wash tomorrow, I'll post pics!

I don't know if I notice much difference...maybe it's a bit softer & wavier, but not necessarily much shinier. Hopefully when I wash it will be more obvious! :-)

P.S. Sorry the second pic is kind of blurry - I've been having issues with the camera....or else I am becoming blurry as I get older?? :D

Your hair definitely has more body in the after picture. Did you microwave the honey?

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 12:27 AM
I've done two honey treatments about two weeks apart, one with conditioner in the mix and one without. I used EVOO in both, and left it in for 1 hour the first time and 2 hours the second. The first time I only rinsed with water and had some trouble getting it all out, and my hair looked a little dirty afterwards. The second time I did a CWC to rinse and it went fine. I think I can see a change in the colour, more the second time than the first, and might post pictures later. Overall I'm very pleased with the colour and the conditioning and shine :)

I would not use conditioner with the honey to try to lighten. The new recipes call for distilled water only and have been reported to work much better than with conditioner.

Good luck! I am glad that you are pleased so far with your results. I look forward to your pictures.

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 12:31 AM
Rhubarbs are starting to grow here again, and I was wondering if I would experiment with lightening my hair a bit with that. But I do wonder if honey added to the mixture would make it more effective and moisturizing? I plan to make a rhubarb-honey-lemon-mixture, with the cardamom EO and cinnamon.

Both lemon and rhubarb contain Vitamin C and can deplete the honey recipe peroxide. I do not recommend a honey/lemon/rhubarb mix.

Here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=538731&postcount=10) is some information on rhubarb.

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 01:24 AM
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions. I finally got the EVOO out by washing first with conditioner, then with shampoo and again with conditioner. I don't see much of a difference in the colour, so I do want to try again. What I gathered from here is that I can double the amount of honey & water, but I should keep the EVOO to 1 tablespoon and the cardamom EO to two drops. I'm still wondering whether I could replace EVOO with some other oil, though. I haven't experimented with oiling much in general, mostly because I've never felt my hair needs that. I've only tried to oil the ends a couple of times. I'm just wondering whether there's another oil that might be more suitable for my hair type that wouldn't mess with the honey in a wrong way. Any ideas? Is there a particular reason why olive oil was chosen for this recipe?

Evoo has a higher peroxide level than other oils if the evoo is pure and not a mix of olive oil and evoo.

You can leave out the oil if you use ground cardamom but you need to use the evoo as a carrier oil for the cardamom essential oil. You can substitute coconut oil for evoo. It has a peroxide value too, just not as high a level as pure evoo.

mellie
May 6th, 2009, 06:10 AM
Your hair definitely has more body in the after picture. Did you microwave the honey?

No, the microwave isn't working. But I mixed it in boiling water. It didn't lighten any that I could tell (which is what I wanted). But I didn't like that it kind of "roughed up" my hair, so I won't do it again.

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 07:32 AM
No, the microwave isn't working. But I mixed it in boiling water. It didn't lighten any that I could tell (which is what I wanted). But I didn't like that it kind of "roughed up" my hair, so I won't do it again.

It sounds as if you have some honey residue. I am sorry that you were not pleased with the results.

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 08:43 AM
Honey can be rinsed out of hair with water but if there is any residue it is best removed by shampoo. It depends on the honey as to how much residue remains on the hair.

Oils can be removed by C0'ing but shampoo is still the best way reported to remove honey residue.

mellie
May 6th, 2009, 12:37 PM
I did do a soapnut shampoo the next day, but it didn't seem to make much difference. I guess I'm spoiled with the shininess and smoothness from the soapnuts, haha! :-)

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 01:05 PM
I did do a soapnut shampoo the next day, but it didn't seem to make much difference. I guess I'm spoiled with the shininess and smoothness from the soapnuts, haha! :-)

It may mean that that honey does not work well on soapnut washed hair.

It used to soften and smooth your hair.

mellie
May 6th, 2009, 01:31 PM
Yes, it worked great for shine back when I used commercial shampoo. Oh well! I will enjoy eating it too, haha! :-)

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 01:40 PM
Yes, it worked great for shine back when I used commercial shampoo. Oh well! I will enjoy eating it too, haha! :-)

True! It is great with so may foods!

HappyKarin
May 6th, 2009, 02:28 PM
I’ve read the firs post about Cardamom oe, butt I couldn’t find any information if it have any bleaching properties. If it have how mutch should I use in the honey mix?
I do love to use it as a fragrance in my hair oils, I think it has a cosy smell :)

ktani
May 6th, 2009, 04:25 PM
I’ve read the firs post about Cardamom oe, butt I couldn’t find any information if it have any bleaching properties. If it have how mutch should I use in the honey mix?

I do love to use it as a fragrance in my hair oils, I think it has a cosy smell :)

For the pure essential oil, I would not veer too far off the recipe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567)that started this change, about 2 to 3 drops per tablespoon of carrier oil and I would not use more oil than than 1 tablespoon of that. If you like you can use up to 2 tablespoons of ground cardamom instead of the essentilal oil or in addition to it wihout adding more oil but if you add ground cardamom, I suggest that you also add more water about 12 tablespoons or 6 oz or even more up to 1.5 cups, depending on how much honey you use. 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablspoons water, 2 to 12, etc.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 07:46 AM
A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link (http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html). 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. Another way to use the new dilution is to just use tablespoons, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc. It works out to be the same as calculating by weight.

According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin).
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369) is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173).

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil. Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons. Information on ground cinnamon can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314). Information on ground cardamom can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373). Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon. None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883) (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. Store (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452) your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429)

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90% water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out. If there is honey residue, shampoo is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of some types of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035).

12. This (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095) is a Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 08:01 AM
Honey Lightening Recipe and Method Innovations

Using a swim cap rather than bagging a honey lightening treatment by kokuryu
kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments,
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765, picture, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767, no damage reported, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801


Honey lightening to create hi-lights by BranwenWolf
Honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506


The use of cardamom essential oil by Fethenwen
After 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil, 1 tablespoon EVOO, 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

Suggestions to duplicate Fethenwen's recipe outside of Finland where SAM honey is unavailable. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567)


A new method for applying a honey lightening treatment by Shikyo
Honey lightening on a mix of virgin and previously dyed hair (previously dyed 3 years ago), recipe and first results, using various coverings, from a plastic bag to a swim cap, and apple cider vinegar, which darkened the hair, adding a red tint
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=651737&postcount=3901, new recipe and innovative new method of application- http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654025&postcount=3912, new method details -http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654068&postcount=3914, complete method details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=654116&postcount=3920


A new method for applying a honey lightening treatment, including the use of a moist towel for containing drips by lilravendark
on previously henndigoed hair, after 4 treatments, with 50:50 honey and boiled tap water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1083309&postcount=4319, details, recipe, method and honey used and using a moist towel, to contain drips
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1084379&postcount=4321, the condition of her hair following honey lightening - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1085526&postcount=4323

A new method to wash out a honey lightening recipe with ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, using an egg wash to emulsify it out by Mandybeth
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1232539&postcount=4389, honey lightening recipe details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1232603&postcount=4391, egg wash reipe details - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1232611&postcount=4393, more details on the honey lightening and egg wash recipes - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1232618&postcount=4395

Filtering a honey lightening recipe idea by Tapioca, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1430343&postcount=4671.
Since there can be other variables as to results, this is worth trying.

Bagging a honey lightening recipe to control drips by Zenity,
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1454349&postcount=4691 and http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1454378&postcount=4692 and http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1454580&postcount=4695 and http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1454584&postcount=4697 and http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1454630&postcount=4698

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 08:31 AM
Honey lightgening and cassia. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332)

MeMyselfandI
May 7th, 2009, 12:33 PM
What is the reason for adding honey to henna treatment? Is it to condition and no henna colour given off?

Or

Is honey added to henna so that the henna colour does not get darker and darker on the hair? If that is the case what colour would grey hair become. What about virgin hair? Will it get hennaed and look like hair hennaed without honey?



Adding honey to a henna treatment has come up, recently.

The new dilution has been reported to work so well for a few reasons.

There are 3 key ones, for a honey lightening treatment to work as well as it can.

1. A good peroxide producing honey

2. The right water (distilled) or tap water with a pH of 7 and no minerals

3. The right dilution, basic, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of distilled water

Then there is the method. The hair must be kept very evenly wet, which is not the same as dripping, throughout the time that the treatment is on the hair, either covered, or constantly misted.

I do not know how much water is used to how much henna, but I understand that it is a thick paste. That means not too much water. Adding honey to a thick paste with water in it will dilute the honey and if it is straight distilled water (no added Vitamin C, like lemon juice in the mix), it should not have too low a pH but honey needs to be pH 6, for optimal peroxide production. Henna is about pH 4.5 and most honey is that or lower. Put it altogether and the conditions are not ideal for much in the way of lightening to happen. It may but slight, IMO, at best.

There one way this may work to prevent henna from going darker. It is an unknown, and I cannot predict results or go by reports.

Mix a honey lightening treatment first, with honey lightening boosters, 3 of them if you can, 1 tablespoon each of ground cinnamon, ground cardamom and evoo, to 2 tablespoons honey and 6 oz of distilled water and let that sit for 2 hours (you can also use 2 tablespoons of ground cinnamon or ground cardamom). Use that mix only to dilute the henna powder, for dye release, or better yet, mix distilled water only with the henna first (you will have more distilled water in the mix), then add the honey lightening treatment, but you will not need the full amount. The treatment will already have produced peroxide. Once you add the honey lightening treatment to the henna, it will not produce much if any more peroxide. It may help prevent the henna from darkening.

MeMyselfandI
May 7th, 2009, 01:04 PM
I do not remember if I ever posted this or if others have posted the same method. Here is my easy way of measuring out the honey and water.

I know the density of water : 1 gram (g) is equal to 1 millileter (mL).

I use:
a Small kitchen scale with gram (g) markings. (My scale is a 9 oz. scale (250 g) with 2g divisions, and
a 1 cup measuring cup with millileter (mL) marking with 10 mL divisions on it.

I put a plastic tumbler (about 10 oz size (300mL) on the kitchen scale.

I look at how much the tumbler weighs, to that number I added the amount of honey I want (30, 35, 40, 50 g etc.

I take the plastic tumbler off the kitchen scale.

Whatever amount of honey I added in grams, I multiply that number by 4. I measure this amount of deionized water in millileters in the 1 cup measuring cup. Mix the water with the honey.

I find this method less messy then using measuring spoons for the honey

***

Example:

35 g of honey needs 140 ml of water
50 g of honey needs 200 ml of water

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 01:47 PM
What is the reason for adding honey to henna treatment? Is it to condition and no henna colour given off?

Or

Is honey added to henna so that the henna colour does not get darker and darker on the hair? If that is the case what colour would grey hair become. What about virgin hair? Will it get hennaed and look like hair hennaed without honey?

The idea behind this is to help prevent the henna from becoming darker as it is continually layered on the hair. To my knowledge, it remains untested and is still a theory.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 01:49 PM
I do not remember if I ever posted this or if others have posted the same method. Here is my easy way of measuring out the honey and water.

I know the density of water : 1 gram (g) is equal to 1 millileter (mL).

I use:
a Small kitchen scale with gram (g) markings. (My scale is a 9 oz. scale (250 g) with 2g divisions, and
a 1 cup measuring cup with millileter (mL) marking with 10 mL divisions on it.

I put a plastic tumbler (about 10 oz size (300mL) on the kitchen scale.

I look at how much the tumbler weighs, to that number I added the amount of honey I want (30, 35, 40, 50 g etc.

I take the plastic tumbler off the kitchen scale.

Whatever amount of honey I added in grams, I multiply that number by 4. I measure this amount of deionized water in millileters in the 1 cup measuring cup. Mix the water with the honey.

I find this method less messy then using measuring spoons for the honey

***

Example:

35 g of honey needs 140 ml of water
50 g of honey needs 200 ml of water

Your measurements are correct. The new dilution calls for 4 times the amount of honey by weight, in water.

"1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link. 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. Another way to use the new dilution is to just use tablespoons, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc. It works out to be the same as calculating by weight." (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096)

HappyKarin
May 7th, 2009, 02:00 PM
For the pure essential oil, I would not veer too far off the recipe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=533075&postcount=3567)that started this change, about 2 to 3 drops per tablespoon of carrier oil and I would not use more oil than than 1 tablespoon of that. If you like you can use up to 2 tablespoons of ground cardamom instead of the essentilal oil or in addition to it wihout adding more oil but if you add ground cardamom, I suggest that you also add more water about 12 tablespoons or 6 oz or even more up to 1.5 cups, depending on how much honey you use. 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablspoons water, 2 to 12, etc.

Thanks Ktani! I will try that..if I can find a good honey here in Sweden with bleaching propertys.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 02:07 PM
Thanks Ktani! I will try that..if I can find a good honey here in Sweden with bleaching propertys.

You are most welcome. Good luck!

Heidi_234
May 7th, 2009, 02:44 PM
Ktani, I remember one LHCer reported that SMT with unmicrowaved honey left overnight lightened her hair by 3 shades or so. Can we employ this for our use somehow?

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 02:58 PM
Ktani, I remember one LHCer reported that SMT with unmicrowaved honey left overnight lightened her hair by 3 shades or so. Can we employ this for our use somehow?

The old recipes, which included conditioner but not aloe, and in some cases were left on overnight, were not reported to be as good at lightening or as fast as the new recipes.

Aloe gel contains a lot of Vitamin C and would dpelete the recipe peroxide.

Heidi_234
May 7th, 2009, 03:03 PM
The old recipes, which included conditioner but not aloe, and in some cases were left on overnight, were not reported to be as good at lightening or as fast as the new recipes.

Aloe gel contains a lot of Vitamin C and would dpelete the recipe peroxide.
Aloe can be left out (I don't use it for my semi-SMTs). I thought more about soaking the hair and bagging it/wrapping it with saran wrap for the night.
Did you see that I did (or at least tried to do) root lightening while your computer was broken?

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Aloe can be left out (I don't use it for my semi-SMTs). I thought more about soaking the hair and bagging it/wrapping it with saran wrap for the night.
Did you see that I did (or at least tried to do) root lightening while your computer was broken?

I not only saw your posts, I replied to them (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=570584&postcount=3680) from another place and computer, during that time. This is just one of my posts from then.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 03:23 PM
The new recipes, minus conditioner and including distilled water, have been reported to yield faster, better results in 1 hour, than the old recipes did, in 8 hours.

Heidi_234
May 7th, 2009, 03:35 PM
I not only saw your posts, I replied to them (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=570584&postcount=3680) from another place and computer, during that time. This is just one of my posts from then.
Oh, I'm sorry, sometimes I don't follow the thread really. Anyway, all good.

The new recipes, minus conditioner and including distilled water, have been reported to yield faster, better results in 1 hour, than the old recipes did, in 8 hours.
I'm sure the new recipe works better, but I've read in various places that the honey's antibacterial properties are peaking 3 hours after activation (dilution in water?). The antibacterial properties are derived from the peroxide content/release, so I'd say even if 1 hour is great, 3 hours all the better. After all, it's not bleach, it's not 3% household peroxide, it's honey, it can't hurt, only do some good.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 03:40 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, sometimes I don't follow the thread really. Anyway, all good.

I'm sure the new recipe works better, but I've read in various places that the honey's antibacterial properties are peaking 3 hours after activation (dilution in water?). The antibacterial properties are derived from the peroxide content/release, so I'd say even if 1 hour is great, 3 hours all the better. After all, it's not bleach, it's not 3% household peroxide, it's honey, it can't hurt, only do some good.

No worries about your reading.

The peroxide produced by honey peaks and declines at different rates, depending on the honey. It does no harm to leave a honey recipe on the hair longer than 1 hour per treatment but based on reports, it is not necessary to do so.

Heidi_234
May 7th, 2009, 03:46 PM
The peroxide produced by honey peaks and declines at different rates, depending on the honey. It does no harm to leave a honey recipe on the hair longer than 1 hour per treatment but based on reports, it is not necessary to do so.
Okay. Well I might try overnight soaking, next time my root are going to show anyway. No harm in trying.
I grow about 0.5" a month, so difference in the color of the henna might become more clear in 2-3 months. Fingers crossed. ;)

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 03:52 PM
Okay. Well I might try overnight soaking, next time my root are going to show anyway. No harm in trying.
I grow about 0.5" a month, so difference in the color of the henna might become more clear in 2-3 months. Fingers crossed. ;)

You got good results in terms of a blurred line of demarkation already. It sounds very promising. Good luck!

Heidi_234
May 7th, 2009, 03:56 PM
You got good results in terms of a blurred line of demarcation already. It sounds very promising. Good luck!
Yes it does! I hope it's enough for the henna to brighten up! Thanks.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 04:03 PM
Yes it does! I hope it's enough for the henna to brighten up! Thanks.

It was in dicussion with you that I came up with this theory (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578494&postcount=3716). I do not know if you ever tried it.

The details. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578391&postcount=3714)

Heidi_234
May 7th, 2009, 04:13 PM
It was in dicussion with you that I came up with this theory (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578494&postcount=3716). I do not know if you ever tried it.

The details. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=578391&postcount=3714)
I didn't happen to try it actually. I think I should strand test it, do one control strand and one with henna mixed with the honey lightening mix. I hennaed my length just last week, for some reason the BAQ henna faded, something that shouldn't have happen!
You know what, next time I honey lighten my roots, if I won't forget, I'll test it.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 04:15 PM
I didn't happen to try it actually. I think I should strand test it, do one control strand and one with henna mixed with the honey lightening mix. I hennaed my length just last week, for some reason the BAQ henna faded, something that shouldn't have happen!
You know what, next time I honey lighten my roots, if I won't forget, I'll test it.

Great! Please update. And did you ever test club soda on your hands for the peroxide thread to see if it was drying?

Heidi_234
May 7th, 2009, 04:23 PM
Great! Please update. And did you ever test club soda on your hands for the peroxide thread to see if it was drying?
No, because I switched to a different body soap which contains more EDTA, and it gets rid of the chlorine dryness like magic. So my hands don't seem to get as dry anymore. Actually, it might prove that the chlorine was drying my hands, not the club soda. :doh: hehe.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 04:32 PM
No, because I switched to a different body soap which contains more EDTA, and it gets rid of the chlorine dryness like magic. So my hands don't seem to get as dry anymore. Actually, it might prove that the chlorine was drying my hands, not the club soda. :doh: hehe.

Great news about the soap! I may test club soda myself to see if it dries out my skin, just to see how it works without chlorine.

Heidi_234
May 7th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Great news about the soap! I may test club soda myself to see if it dries out my skin, just to see how it works without chlorine.
Yeah, it's a good idea. I would do it myself but I currently don't have any, and when I do, by the law of Murphy, I forget.

ktani
May 7th, 2009, 05:23 PM
Yeah, it's a good idea. I would do it myself but I currently don't have any, and when I do, by the law of Murphy, I forget.

I currently don't have any either and I do not swim in a chlorinated pool (allergy to chlorine) but I can always drink what is left over from a test, lol.

ktani
May 8th, 2009, 03:59 PM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ljkforu
May 9th, 2009, 04:10 AM
Chlorine allergy -- what neutralizes chlorine? Vinegar?

Sometimes I just have to get warm in a hot tub, then I have fever to 2 days. How can I get it off me fastest?

ktani
May 9th, 2009, 05:44 AM
Chlorine allergy -- what neutralizes chlorine? Vinegar?

Sometimes I just have to get warm in a hot tub, then I have fever to 2 days. How can I get it off me fastest?

Club soda

Here you go, the Article (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=115).

ktani
May 9th, 2009, 02:29 PM
The lastest research from the peroxide thread. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=581693&postcount=866)

ktani
May 9th, 2009, 08:18 PM
Notes on EVOO (Extra Virgin Olive Oil) PV is short for Peroxide Value
The PV is greatly reduced by the refining process used for most vegetable oils. Virgin olive oils are not exposed to such processes and the PVs permitted in these products are considerably higher. The IOOC and CAC standards permit extra-virgin olive oils to have PVs of up to 20 meq/kg, while pure olive oils, which by definition are blends of virgin and refined olive oils, must have PVs below 10 meq/kg. (http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/T4660T/t4660t0e.htm)

In other words, the peroxide value of a pure evoo is going to be higher than that of a blend of evoo and olive oil, which would be about that of coconut oil.

Here is one source for cardamom essential oil and they sell samples, as well as provide information. (http://www.100pureessentialoils.com/site/1562898/page/710050)

ktani
May 11th, 2009, 10:57 AM
Recent honey lightening recipe and method innovations

Honey lightening to create hi-lights, by BranwenWolf

Honey lightening hi-lights on faded strawberry blonde dyed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524502&postcount=3504

recipe and method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=524547&postcount=3506


The use of cardamom essential oil, by Fethenwen

After 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil, 1 tablespoon EVOO, 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

ktani
May 11th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)." (http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html)

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. " (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust." (http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm)

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used " (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html)

hockeygirl256
May 11th, 2009, 01:40 PM
I will definitely be trying this out once my roots are showing. Unfortunately I gave in to dyeing my hair (I know I know), but I just couldn't stand the dishwater blonde. I'm just wondering though if this is really all that gentle, since technically you are stil using hydrogen peroxide. But I guess its probably present in smaller quantities, etc.

ktani
May 11th, 2009, 01:57 PM
I will definitely be trying this out once my roots are showing. Unfortunately I gave in to dyeing my hair (I know I know), but I just couldn't stand the dishwater blonde. I'm just wondering though if this is really all that gentle, since technically you are stil using hydrogen peroxide. But I guess its probably present in smaller quantities, etc.

It is not just the quantity of peroxide that is involved here. Read the first post of the peroxide thead, #2, in my signature. Honey lightening peroxide has not been reported to damage hair to date, in over 5 Honey threads, including this one.

ktani
May 12th, 2009, 06:45 AM
I will definitely be trying this out once my roots are showing. Unfortunately I gave in to dyeing my hair (I know I know), but I just couldn't stand the dishwater blonde. I'm just wondering though if this is really all that gentle, since technically you are stil using hydrogen peroxide. But I guess its probably present in smaller quantities, etc.

Here are the details

I started with this research.

“…. harmful effects of hydrogen peroxide …. further reduced because honey sequesters and inactivates the free iron which catalyses the formation of oxygen free radicals produced by hydrogen peroxide .... and its antioxidant components help to mop up oxygen free radicals ....
.... papers describing the application of honey to open wounds .... been reported to be soothing .... to relieve pain .... be non-irritating ... be pain free on application .... with no adverse effects ...."
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/...cal-agent.html (http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html)

and found more to support it and reports of no damage in Honey threads

1999
“Protection by the Flavonoids Myricetin, Quercetin, and Rutin Against Hydrogen Peroxide-Induced DNA Damage ….
cell lines were supplemented with various concentrations of myricetin, quercetin, and rutin for 24 hours .... Exposure to 50 microM H2O2 for 30 minutes at 37°C resulted in significant DNA damage .... preincubation with the flavonoids before H2O2 exposure significantly .... protected .... cells against H2O2-induced DNA damage"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10578483?dopt=Abstract)


The 3 flavonoids mentioned, Myricetin, Quercetin, and Rutin are all found in honey and the peroxide boosters, ground cinnamon, ground cardamom and extra virgin olive oil. Gallic acid is found in coconut oil.
1993
"In the Ames test, gallic acid esters showed protective effects against H2O2-induced cytotoxicity ….
…. structure-activity relationship indicates …. similarity of the protective effects of gallic acid esters on the H2O2-induced damages to both bacterial and mammalian cells.”
http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/ind...s&therow=25033 (http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=25033)

Same researchers, Date, 2007
"Experimental evidence suggests .... most herbs and spices possess .... wide range of biological and pharmacological activities .... may protect tissues against H2O2-induced damage."
http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/ab...195628!8091!-1 (http://pt.wkhealth.com/pt/re/bjon/abstract.00002375-200702000-00014.htm;jsessionid=LnNYJw83hnMdGy7YH7kTG5yTxd22N dQFGW2TR471KqzkdQM2V5CX!-927161468!181195628!8091!-1)

In honey lightening, these natural phytochemicals are in place while the peroxide is being produced and IMO, supports the reports that no hair damage has occured.

miesneito
May 12th, 2009, 07:50 AM
ktani, thank you so much for all the hard work you do for this thread. :)

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but has anyone experimented with marigold in the lightening treatments? I know it's been mentioned as something that can be added to henna mixes to make the results more orange, and has been used traditionally for colouring fabrics. As my goal is to get my 3 years of henna to look lighter and I know I have a small bag of dried marigold flowers around here somewhere, this is something that I could experiment with. I wonder what sort of dye release time it has, and whether there's so much vit C that it shouldn't be used with honey?

ktani
May 12th, 2009, 08:09 AM
ktani, thank you so much for all the hard work you do for this thread. :)

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but has anyone experimented with marigold in the lightening treatments? I know it's been mentioned as something that can be added to henna mixes to make the results more orange, and has been used traditionally for colouring fabrics. As my goal is to get my 3 years of henna to look lighter and I know I have a small bag of dried marigold flowers around here somewhere, this is something that I could experiment with. I wonder what sort of dye release time it has, and whether there's so much vit C that it shouldn't be used with honey?

You are most welcome!

I no longer recommend using herbal teas in honey lightening recipes for several reasons.

1. herbal teas can possibly add colour to hair

2. herbal tea would need to be brewed separately and cooled to room tenperature before adding the other recipe ingredients

3. some herbal teas, like marigold (calendula) contain Vitamin C or minerals that can deplete a honey lightening recipe peroxide level.

4. the pH of a herbal tea + honey may not be optimal for the honey to produce as much peroxide as it can with distilled water (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=282315&postcount=2296).

I would save your marigold for use following honey lightening. I see no point in using it in honey lightening as it may prove to be counterproductive to the results you want. Some information on calendula (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-calendula.html).

I researched calendula years ago and came accross this statement on a different website "Calendula .... research shows the ray florets have depilatory effects (removes hair) and is useful in face creams. (http://www.healthy-foryou.com/thentix/ingredients/calendula.php)". I tried to follow up on that but I did not locate the original research.

miesneito
May 12th, 2009, 10:43 AM
Thank you, I thought it might not be ideal to mix the two. I'll have to try to find out more about using marigold for hair and do a separate treatment with it.

I'm wondering about the pH as well. I checked the conditioners I used for removing the honey treatment (remember, I had to wash several times over two days because I had problems getting the EVOO out?) and one of the bottles says the pH is 3.5 and the other 4 (I used 2 different kinds but they're both the same brand). Could it be that the pH had something to do with the fact that I really didn't seem to get any lightening done? Could the conditioner used for washing still affect the process after 1 hour of sitting in a bowl + 1 hour in the hair?

ktani
May 12th, 2009, 11:11 AM
Thank you, I thought it might not be ideal to mix the two. I'll have to try to find out more about using marigold for hair and do a separate treatment with it.

I'm wondering about the pH as well. I checked the conditioners I used for removing the honey treatment (remember, I had to wash several times over two days because I had problems getting the EVOO out?) and one of the bottles says the pH is 3.5 and the other 4 (I used 2 different kinds but they're both the same brand). Could it be that the pH had something to do with the fact that I really didn't seem to get any lightening done? Could the conditioner used for washing still affect the process after 1 hour of sitting in a bowl + 1 hour in the hair?

Not in my opinion. You just rinse out the treatment, then apply the conditioner and CO with it if you like. It cannot affect any lightening that already would have taken place. I am sorry to hear that the recipe did not work for you.

You may want to try 1/2 the amount EVOO and and essential oil and add some powdered cardamom to the recipe. You would need to add more water though because of the ground cardamom pH.

The recommended recipe amounts are 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons water. If you need more it is 2 to 12, etc. I do not know if the tap water in Finland is consistant. You can try distilled water to see if that helps. If you use cardamom essential oil, make sure that is the pure essential oil and not the extract.

What is your starting haircolour? Check though this (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096)to see if there may be something that you missed.
Please update as you go. I hope that you get the lightening that you want.

miesneito
May 12th, 2009, 02:59 PM
Yes, I will definitely keep the amount of oil down next time! :D

Tap water in Finland IS pretty consistent in pH and quality, but I'm more worried about the minerals etc because I think that depends on the plumbing and I happen to live in a house where I think the water doesn't taste as good as say about a mile from here - I think they add some chemicals to keep the old pipes in shape. I've tested the pH of my tap water a few times (for my aquarium ;)) and it's somewhere between 7.0 and 7.5. So I bought sterile water - the pharmacist said they don't have distilled water any more, because they aren't allowed to make it themselves these days. I was in a hurry so I didn't stay to chat so I have no idea what this regulation is about.

I have medium brown/strawberry blonde hair which I've been hennaing for almost three years now.

Fethenwen, if you're reading this - do you remember which brand your EVOO was?

ktani
May 12th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Yes, I will definitely keep the amount of oil down next time! :D

Tap water in Finland IS pretty consistent in pH and quality, but I'm more worried about the minerals etc because I think that depends on the plumbing and I happen to live in a house where I think the water doesn't taste as good as say about a mile from here - I think they add some chemicals to keep the old pipes in shape. I've tested the pH of my tap water a few times (for my aquarium ;)) and it's somewhere between 7.0 and 7.5. So I bought sterile water - the pharmacist said they don't have distilled water any more, because they aren't allowed to make it themselves these days. I was in a hurry so I didn't stay to chat so I have no idea what this regulation is about.

I have medium brown/strawberry blonde hair which I've been hennaing for almost three years now.

I replied to you here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=570551&postcount=3679) but lost track (I did not have my new computer yet and was not online frequently then). I was waiting for your update.

Sterilized water is not the same as distilled and yes, tap water can be affected by pipes (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=534131&postcount=3574), in terms of added minerals. See if you can get deioized water or try your tap water. If you can, get pure EVOO. Good luck!

ktani
May 13th, 2009, 08:19 PM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded). Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
May 14th, 2009, 08:28 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Also see Honey blends (http://www.longhaircommunity.com/forums/showpost.php?p=534197&postcount=3575).

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382).

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

Longhairpixie
May 14th, 2009, 12:51 PM
It's my first time try honey on hair. I'm going to be trying this on my best friends hair tonight. She has dark brown hair so wish us luck.

ktani
May 14th, 2009, 01:58 PM
It's my first time try honey on hair. I'm going to be trying this on my best friends hair tonight. She has dark brown hair so wish us luck.

Good luck! Read through this post if you have not already, before you do her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

Longhairpixie
May 14th, 2009, 02:06 PM
I read the whole then then called her up and told her on the way here to pick up some distilled water. I've got my honey, cinnamon and EVOO all ready to go. Thanks for all the info! :)

ktani
May 14th, 2009, 02:55 PM
I read the whole then then called her up and told her on the way here to pick up some distilled water. I've got my honey, cinnamon and EVOO all ready to go. Thanks for all the info! :)

Great! I will be on and offline. If you have any questions, post or pm and I will reply.

I do not know what recipe you are going to be using but good luck.

Longhairpixie
May 14th, 2009, 03:56 PM
Great! I will be on and offline. If you have any questions, post or pm and I will reply.

I do not know what recipe you are going to be using but good luck.

Right now the plan is:
6 tablespoons honey
2 1/4 cups H2O (room temp)
2 tablespoons cinnamon
1 tablespoon EVOO
Let it sit for one hour
Then spray in hair and let set for one hour with a lot of saran wrap around our heads :rockerdud
Then wash out w/ watered down shampoo then condition our hair.:happydance:
Does that sound (look) about right? :confused:

ktani
May 14th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Right now the plan is:
6 tablespoons honey
2 1/4 cups H2O (room temp)
2 tablespoons cinnamon
1 tablespoon EVOO
Let it sit for one hour
Then spray in hair and let set for one hour with a lot of saran wrap around our heads :rockerdud
Then wash out w/ watered down shampoo then condition our hair.:happydance:
Does that sound (look) about right? :confused:

Oh boy, my math skills and the conversion, lol.

6 tablespoons honey would need 36 tablespoons distilled water.

12 tablespoons = 6 oz or 3/4 cup US

36 tablespoons = 18 oz or 2 1/4 cups US So you are right about the water.

You could use more cinnamon that but you should be ok with what you have in mind. I hope that you patch tested the cinnamon. You could add ground cardamom if you like, if you patch tested it. It is a huge recipe amount.

The method is equally important. Make sure that the hair is thoroughly wet and stays wet while covered.

A honey lightening recipe does not have to be washed out with shampoo. COing is an option but shampoo is fine.

I wish you a good peroxide producing honey! Please update and pictures are always welcome!

Longhairpixie
May 14th, 2009, 04:31 PM
Oh boy, my math skills and the conversion, lol.

6 tablespoons honey would need 36 tablespoons distilled water.

12 tablespoons = 6 oz or 3/4 cup US

36 tablespoons = 18 oz or 2 1/4 cups US So you are right about the water.

You could use more cinnamon that but you should be ok with what you have in mind. I hope that you patch tested the cinnamon. You could add ground cardamom if you like, if you patch tested it. It is a huge recipe amount.

The method is equally important. Make sure that the hair is thoroughly wet and stays wet while covered.

A honey lightening recipe does not have to be washed out with shampoo. COing is an option but shampoo is fine.

I wish you a good peroxide producing honey! Please update and pictures are always welcome!

The only reason is so huge is b/c my hair around BSL and very thick (I just washed it so it will be wet for later) and hers is just above her shoulder. So I want to make sure I have enough to go around. I might make too much and just save it for cooking with something later.

I think she will want to use shampoo b/c her hair gets oily very quick but I'll just CO.

I'll try to remember to take some before and after pictures of both of us. :D

Thank you soo much for the help!

ktani
May 14th, 2009, 04:52 PM
The only reason is so huge is b/c my hair around BSL and very thick (I just washed it so it will be wet for later) and hers is just above her shoulder. So I want to make sure I have enough to go around. I might make too much and just save it for cooking with something later.

I think she will want to use shampoo b/c her hair gets oily very quick but I'll just CO.

I'll try to remember to take some before and after pictures of both of us. :D

Thank you soo much for the help!

My pleasure!

ktani
May 14th, 2009, 10:19 PM
I'll try to remember to take some before and after pictures of both of us. :D

Thank you soo much for the help!

I hope as I write this, that all has gone well!

Longhairpixie
May 15th, 2009, 06:29 AM
No, sadly the power when out so we end up not being able do anything.:( She when home and I feel asleep.
I'm going to try again this weekend.

ktani
May 15th, 2009, 06:32 AM
No, sadly the power when out so we end up not being able do anything.:( She when home and I feel asleep.
I'm going to try again this weekend.

No worries. I hope things go well.

How long was the power out? I hope that it was not too bad.