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ktani
January 20th, 2009, 11:45 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
January 21st, 2009, 07:32 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

Treecrown
January 22nd, 2009, 04:58 AM
Question: would actually soaking the hair in the honey-water mixture work? I mean, if you set up with a pillow or something under your shoulders so you could dunk your whole head (but not face) into the mixture?

ktani
January 22nd, 2009, 05:29 AM
Question: would actually soaking the hair in the honey-water mixture work? I mean, if you set up with a pillow or something under your shoulders so you could dunk your whole head (but not face) into the mixture?

Theoretically yes, but for 1 hour? You could if you like.

ktani
January 23rd, 2009, 06:32 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

Palms
January 23rd, 2009, 10:35 AM
hi ktani,
it has been a long time for me since i was last here.. i used to do the honey lightening alot but on the old ways..
so from what i have read in the new thread is that i can dilute honey in only water and leave it for only one hour?!! what if i left it more will i benifit more? i love the honey thing it makes my hair much better!

ktani
January 23rd, 2009, 10:51 AM
hi ktani,
it has been a long time for me since i was last here.. i used to do the honey lightening alot but on the old ways..
so from what i have read in the new thread is that i can dilute honey in only water and leave it for only one hour?!! what if i left it more will i benifit more? i love the honey thing it makes my hair much better!

Hi Palms

I do indeed remember you.

All of the information you need to get started is here, with explanations, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1, or in my signature post (with more links).

Distilled water is recommended for honey lightening now, instead of; tap or spring water, tomato products, hibiscus tea, coconut cream or milk, or conditioner.

And yes, leaving the new recipes on longer, has been reported to add extra conditioning benefits.

If you have any other questions, please just post and as always, I will reply.

ktani
January 23rd, 2009, 05:58 PM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).


".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ljkforu
January 23rd, 2009, 06:52 PM
I had excellent results with Honey lightening used to remove old black hair dye on my ends.

Since I'm careless and didn't read the directions fully I used I inch in a honey (Naturally Preferred Fireweed Honey from Kroger's Grocery) cylinder to 3 inches of soft tap water in a honey cylinder (i.e. even squeeze bottle). I added a heaping eating tablespoon of freshly ground cardamom and 1 level freshly ground eating tablespoon of cassia Cinnamon. I also used a tablespoon of coconut oil but in the future would use evoo to blend easier.

I left it on my fully saturated ends covered by a plastic shower cap for 1 1/2 hours on two occasions a day apart and achieved a brown comparable to my own hair color (happily).

Ktani please feel free to comment and correct what I did right and wrong I won't be offended.

It should be noted that I will use distilled water in the future but I do live in a soft water area in a brand new apartment with unused pipes.

ktani
January 23rd, 2009, 07:13 PM
I had excellent results with Honey lightening used to remove old black hair dye on my ends.

Since I'm careless and didn't read the directions fully I used I inch in a honey (Naturally Preferred Fireweed Honey from Kroger's Grocery) cylinder to 3 inches of soft tap water in a honey cylinder (i.e. even squeeze bottle). I added a heaping eating tablespoon of freshly ground cardamom and 1 level freshly ground eating tablespoon of cassia Cinnamon. I also used a tablespoon of coconut oil but in the future would use evoo to blend easier.

I left it on my fully saturated ends covered by a plastic shower cap for 1 1/2 hours on two occasions a day apart and achieved a brown comparable to my own hair color (happily).

Ktani please feel free to comment and correct what I did right and wrong I won't be offended.

It should be noted that I will use distilled water in the future but I do live in a soft water area in a brand new apartment with unused pipes.

Lol, if it worked for you, it was right.

Ok, you did not use the new dilution, which is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, minimum measurements.

I have no idea what 1 inch of honey equals, or 3 inches of water.

However there are variables with what you did.

The pH and mineral content of your tap water and the pH of your honey. If your honey is pH 6 diluted with your tap water, (with few to no minerals in it), it would amount to what is needed for your honey, (which is obviouly a good peroxide producer) to produce its maximum amount of peroxide, at a lower dilution.

The water and the honey at a higher pH together, would also be high enough for to raise the pH of the acidic spices. You also got and kept your hair wet enough, while the treatment was on your hair.

Bottom line, you got positive results with what you did. All is good.

Palms
January 24th, 2009, 03:54 AM
Hi Palms

I do indeed remember you.

All of the information you need to get started is here, with explanations, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1, or in my signature post (with more links).

Distilled water is recommended for honey lightening now, instead of; tap or spring water, tomato products, hibiscus tea, coconut cream or milk, or conditioner.

And yes, leaving the new recipes on longer, has been reported to add extra conditioning benefits.

If you have any other questions, please just post and as always, I will reply.
waw! firslty thanx for remebering me:D you made my day!!
i do recommend this hoeny thing for everyone i know.. regarding the timing issue, i ment if i leave the honey for more than 1 hour -i use to leave the honey for 6 hours in the old way, will this increase the lightening effect?

ktani
January 24th, 2009, 07:35 AM
waw! firslty thanx for remebering me:D you made my day!!
i do recommend this hoeny thing for everyone i know.. regarding the timing issue, i ment if i leave the honey for more than 1 hour -i use to leave the honey for 6 hours in the old way, will this increase the lightening effect?

You can leave this version of honey lightening on for an extra hour or so. That may give you some extra lightening but I do not think that it is necessary. You should get most of the lightening in 1 hour. There is no harm done to leave a treatment on longer. With the old recipes, 6 to 8 hours was the norm in some cases. You can get more lightening with the new recipes in 1 hour than with the old in 6 to 8 hours.

ktani
January 25th, 2009, 07:00 AM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded). Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

Oskimosa
January 25th, 2009, 01:34 PM
The other day and also last night, I did honey treatments. The first time, I thought I saw a bit of lightening. I took pictures, and when my hair dries, I'll take more for comparison and post more details about my mixes. Last night I left it on for 12 hours! And I don't see anything. But I forgot to use DISTILLED water vs tap water. Could that have been the problem?

Also, is there a certain amount of time after which the honey will stop working? I see that most will happen in an hour, but I thought people were leaving the mix to rest and release peroxide for an hour, THEN putting it on the hair... (thats what I did...)

ktani
January 25th, 2009, 02:17 PM
The other day and also last night, I did honey treatments. The first time, I thought I saw a bit of lightening. I took pictures, and when my hair dries, I'll take more for comparison and post more details about my mixes. 1. Last night I left it on for 12 hours! And I don't see anything. But I forgot to use DISTILLED water vs tap water. Could that have been the problem?

Also, is there a certain amount of time after which the honey will stop working? I see that most will happen in an hour, but 2. I thought people were leaving the mix to rest and release peroxide for an hour, THEN putting it on the hair... (thats what I did...)

1. Very possibly. Your tap water may have minerals in it plus a pH that may not be honey lightening friendly. 12 hours or even 3 is not nescessary for a honey lightening treatment, with the new recipes.

2. That is correct. You can do that, let a recipe rest, for 1 hour to produce peroxide and than leave it on the hair for an hour or 2. Different honeys will produce peroxide that can decline in potency over hours or 24 hours. It varies.

It may also depend on how wet your hair stays, with a treatment on the hair. The hair needs to be very eveny wet during application and while the treatment is on the hair, covered, or misted, during the treatment time.

Oskimosa
January 26th, 2009, 12:25 AM
Thanks so much for the reply, ktani!

I'll make sure to use bottled water next time. I know I have hard water. Also, whenever I do my henna treatments, I get alot better (more vivid) results with plain tap water in my mix than lemon juice. I don't know if that tells you anything...?

Anyhow, I don't really feel like posting the pictures I took because I think they're confusing. After my first honey treatment, in pictures it looked alot lighter even though I was in the same room under the same lighting. It didn't look much different at all to me hanging in front of my eyes. Then, after last night's treatment, I took pictures once dry. My hair looked MUCH DARKER than either set of pictures! :rolleyes: Come on... it really doesn't look darker when I hold it in front of my face but .. maybe the honey is causing the henna to "re-oxidize" making it darker? Or is my camera just crazy?

ktani
January 26th, 2009, 07:23 AM
Thanks so much for the reply, ktani!

I'll make sure to use bottled water next time. I know I have hard water. Also, whenever I do my henna treatments, I get alot better (more vivid) results with plain tap water in my mix than lemon juice. I don't know if that tells you anything...?

Anyhow, I don't really feel like posting the pictures I took because I think they're confusing. After my first honey treatment, in pictures it looked alot lighter even though I was in the same room under the same lighting. It didn't look much different at all to me hanging in front of my eyes. Then, after last night's treatment, I took pictures once dry. My hair looked MUCH DARKER than either set of pictures! :rolleyes: Come on... it really doesn't look darker when I hold it in front of my face but .. maybe the honey is causing the henna to "re-oxidize" making it darker? Or is my camera just crazy?

You are most welcome!

Not bottled water, distilled water. Bottled water is spring water or even well water in some cases and is full of minerals. Distilled water contains no minerals and is the perfect pH for honey lightening water, pH 7.

Honey lightening has not been reported to cause henna to reoxidize, unless you added something with a lot of Vitamin C in it, which can cause a redox reaction. A lot of Vitamin C can deplete the peroxide in a recipe to almost nil and then cause redox, which can cause henna to lighten, then redarken. Camera flash results in darker looking hair colour, in pictures.

ktani
January 26th, 2009, 04:19 PM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ljkforu
January 26th, 2009, 08:57 PM
Lol, if it worked for you, it was right.

Ok, you did not use the new dilution, which is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, minimum measurements.

I have no idea what 1 inch of honey equals, or 3 inches of water.

However there are variables with what you did.

The pH and mineral content of your tap water and the pH of your honey. If your honey is pH 6 diluted with your tap water, (with few to no minerals in it), it would amount to what is needed for your honey, (which is obviouly a good peroxide producer) to produce its maximum amount of peroxide, at a lower dilution.

The water and the honey at a higher pH together, would also be high enough for to raise the pH of the acidic spices. You also got and kept your hair wet enough, while the treatment was on your hair.

Bottom line, you got positive results with what you did. All is good.
I measured the honey to water volume on my bottle and it was 1 oz by volume fireweed honey to 3 oz by volume tap water (soft new pipes).

ktani
January 26th, 2009, 09:00 PM
I measured the honey to water volume on my bottle and it was 1 oz by volume fireweed honey to 3 oz by volume tap water (soft new pipes).

The new dilution is based on honey to water by weight not volume. I converted it to tablespoons to make it easier for people.

"1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link. 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water, http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html."

from my signature post, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096.

ljkforu
January 26th, 2009, 10:56 PM
The new dilution is based on honey to water by weight not volume. I converted it to tablespoons to make it easier for people.

"1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link. 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water, http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html."

from my signature post, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096.
It seems like I used more honey than needed. I sure am happy with my results though. Everyone in my family has been trying to get me to remove the black (for years now) and I kept telling them that I didn't know of a safe way to not get orange striped hair.

I'm happy to say that everyone who sees my hair in the sunlight says that the problem has been corrected and doesn't need to be further messed with. My family is big on concrit so I'm really satisfied.

ktani
January 26th, 2009, 10:59 PM
It seems like I used more honey than needed. I sure am happy with my results though. Everyone in my family has been trying to get me to remove the black (for years now) and I kept telling them that I didn't know of a safe way to not get orange striped hair.

I'm happy to say that everyone who sees my hair in the sunlight says that the problem has been corrected and doesn't need to be further messed with. My family is big on concrit so I'm really satisfied.

As I said, with your honey and water, the minerals in the water were low enough, the pH was probably perfect and with the dilution you used, you got the results you wanted. That is what counts, your results. Well done!

ktani
January 27th, 2009, 01:16 PM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with strong oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and can deplete or negatively interact, with the peroxide levels of honey lightening recipes, IMO.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

Hekuro
January 27th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Hi Ktani,

As always, your research is amazingly helpful. I'm not sure if this question has been asked before, I'll confess I haven't read the full thread. Do you think that honey lightening would work on the eyebrows?

I'm not sure how essential it is to cover the hair during the process - that would be the one part I couldn't do with my eyebrows. It wouldn't be a problem to keep a mister of the water/honey solution and spray that onto the eyebrows every so often to keep them moist.

Does that sound feasible? I guess maybe I'll just try it and see.

Thanks,
Hekuro

ktani
January 27th, 2009, 03:14 PM
Hi Ktani,

As always, your research is amazingly helpful. I'm not sure if this question has been asked before, I'll confess I haven't read the full thread. Do you think that honey lightening would work on the eyebrows?

I'm not sure how essential it is to cover the hair during the process - that would be the one part I couldn't do with my eyebrows. It wouldn't be a problem to keep a mister of the water/honey solution and spray that onto the eyebrows every so often to keep them moist.

Does that sound feasible? I guess maybe I'll just try it and see.

Thanks,
Hekuro

Thank you for your kind words.

It can work on any hair, properly done. Misting to keep them wet is an idea. Taping plastic over them another. Misting may cause the treatment to drip into your eyes. No harm there but it could get uncomfortable.

Hekuro
January 27th, 2009, 03:28 PM
Awesome, thanks. I'll try the misting first. Or maybe a basting brush. If that becomes uncomfortable I'll try taping plastic on.

Might be a day or two until I pick up some distilled water, but I'll report back.

Hekuro

ktani
January 27th, 2009, 03:36 PM
Awesome, thanks. I'll try the misting first. Or maybe a basting brush. If that becomes uncomfortable I'll try taping plastic on.

Might be a day or two until I pick up some distilled water, but I'll report back.

Hekuro

You are most welcome. I look forward to your update. Good luck.

ljkforu
January 27th, 2009, 08:10 PM
Awesome, thanks. I'll try the misting first. Or maybe a basting brush. If that becomes uncomfortable I'll try taping plastic on.

Might be a day or two until I pick up some distilled water, but I'll report back.

Hekuro
You might want to just keep dipping your finger into a little sauce bowl and keep wiping it on every few minutes while watching TV or something.

Allegra
January 28th, 2009, 07:14 AM
I wasn't sure whether to post this in this thread or the cassia thread, but I figured it has more to do with lightening so I'd post here.

If I made a honey/water dilution and allowed it to sit and produce peroxide, then used this solution to mix with cassia, would it still be effective at lightening, or would the cassia negatively affect the peroxide??

I know it's a very exact science, so just wanted to see what your opinions are!

Thanks :)

mellie
January 28th, 2009, 07:33 AM
Ktani, has anyone tried honey (not necessarily lightening) treatments on silver hair, or salt & pepper hair?

I am trying to let my grays grow in naturally. Once I'm all salt & pepper (soon!), I wonder if honey (non-lightening) treatments might be nice to make the wiry grays softer, shinier and more manageable?

ktani
January 28th, 2009, 07:49 AM
Ktani, has anyone tried honey (not necessarily lightening) treatments on silver hair, or salt & pepper hair?

I am trying to let my grays grow in naturally. Once I'm all salt & pepper (soon!), I wonder if honey (non-lightening) treatments might be nice to make the wiry grays softer, shinier and more manageable?

You can try adding it to your soapnut solution but that is not on your hair long enough for conditioning.

You could try a honey and herb mix or honey and conditioner. To avoid the possibility of lightening, microwave the honey separately first, for 30 seconds to under 1 minute.

mellie
January 28th, 2009, 07:51 AM
OK, I might give it a try this weekend, my old Mellie's Mix perhaps, just nuking the honey first! :-)

But you haven't heard reports back from any silver haired folks using it?

ktani
January 28th, 2009, 07:55 AM
OK, I might give it a try this weekend, my old Mellie's Mix perhaps, just nuking the honey first! :-)

But you haven't heard reports back from any silver haired folks using it?

Both from conditioning and lightening reports with honey, people have reported shiny, conditioned hair that feels great. The only exceptions and this is temporary, until shampoo is used to remove it, are cases where there has been honey residue and the hair has felt dry.

ktani
January 28th, 2009, 07:45 PM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
January 29th, 2009, 09:03 AM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

Girltron
January 29th, 2009, 10:22 AM
I've been using honey to very gently correct the burgundy cast I gave my hair six months or so ago. I used full-head straight henna just one time too many, and while regular cassia treatments helped correct the burgundy I still felt my lengths looked unnatural. Sort of a winey brown.

I didn't exactly stick with the new recipe. I've been combining 7 ounces (half a can) of light coconut milk with 2 ounces of Target brand honey, letting it sit for 1 hour, then applying it to dry hair and covering with a shower cap.

I've done this three times, leaving it on for an hour each time. I rinsed and followed by my AO S&C as usual, and an acid rinse.

The burgundy highlights have subtly changed to a nice golden red that matches my husband's natural red. I don't think it lifted any of my indigo or any of my natural base color, which is a dark brown, so the only change happened in the hue of my henna highlights which is what I wanted.

Also my white hairs truly sparkle! They never hold onto the henna/cassia/indigo color for long.

Benefits: this is so darn conditioning it makes my hair very silky. I'm going to keep using this mix with microwaved honey before every shampoo from now on. I actually had to stop oiling my hair after a shampoo because it wasn't needed! Also spreading the mix onto my facial skin when it dripped was nice (though sticky) because it brightened my skin and fingernails a bit.

I don't have photos but I doubt the change would show up well in photos. Only if I could have gotten the henna to really flame in the light for the before and after shots. Sorry I didn't do this!

ktani
January 29th, 2009, 10:38 AM
I've been using honey to very gently correct the burgundy cast I gave my hair six months or so ago. I used full-head straight henna just one time too many, and while regular cassia treatments helped correct the burgundy I still felt my lengths looked unnatural. Sort of a winey brown.

I didn't exactly stick with the new recipe. I've been combining 7 ounces (half a can) of light coconut milk with 2 ounces of Target brand honey, letting it sit for 1 hour, then applying it to dry hair and covering with a shower cap.

I've done this three times, leaving it on for an hour each time. I rinsed and followed by my AO S&C as usual, and an acid rinse.

The burgundy highlights have subtly changed to a nice golden red that matches my husband's natural red. I don't think it lifted any of my indigo or any of my natural base color, which is a dark brown, so the only change happened in the hue of my henna highlights which is what I wanted.

Also my white hairs truly sparkle! They never hold onto the henna/cassia/indigo color for long.

Benefits: this is so darn conditioning it makes my hair very silky. I'm going to keep using this mix with microwaved honey before every shampoo from now on. I actually had to stop oiling my hair after a shampoo because it wasn't needed! Also spreading the mix onto my facial skin when it dripped was nice (though sticky) because it brightened my skin and fingernails a bit.

I don't have photos but I doubt the change would show up well in photos. Only if I could have gotten the henna to really flame in the light for the before and after shots. Sorry I didn't do this!

Coconut mikl/coconut cream used with honey for lightening were recommended in the old honey lightening recipes and were reported to work. They can work more slowly and subtly to lighten over time, as with your reported results.

The new recipes have been reported to work much faster and better, in terms of lightening, while still conditioning.

Coconut milk and cream contain minerals and Vitamin C and are acidic, so they deplete the peroxide honey produces and limit the amout of peroxide the honey can produce (honey produces its maximum amount of peroxide at pH 6 and most honeys are much more acidic than that), at one time.

If you are happy with your results and you are, that is what matters.

Girltron
January 29th, 2009, 10:44 AM
Yep! I wanted to be VERY subtle. I like my hair DARK, just not purplish! My husband even told me he couldn't see the burgundy any longer after my cassia treatments, but I could tell. It was in the low light situations when my hair tended to reflect a kind of brownish burgundyish color that I associate with dyed hair. I wanna look natural.

I think it's brought out a bit more dimension overall, without killing the darkness of my hair.

ktani
January 29th, 2009, 10:46 AM
Yep! I wanted to be VERY subtle. I like my hair DARK, just not purplish! My husband even told me he couldn't see the burgundy any longer after my cassia treatments, but I could tell. It was in the low light situations when my hair tended to reflect a kind of brownish burgundyish color that I associate with dyed hair. I wanna look natural.

I think it's brought out a bit more dimension overall, without killing the darkness of my hair.

Different strokes and I am happy for you. You got what you wanted from honey lightening and that is the whole point of this thread. Well done!

Nazneen
January 29th, 2009, 10:47 AM
I am trying to remove henna from my hair and am very thankful I found this forum. There's a TON of good info here. I haven't really tried anything yet but am thinking of using the honey & conditioner mix first. I can't find a recipe for a mixture amount though. Is it equal amounts?
:)

ktani
January 29th, 2009, 10:55 AM
I am trying to remove henna from my hair and am very thankful I found this forum. There's a TON of good info here. I haven't really tried anything yet but am thinking of using the honey & conditioner mix first. I can't find a recipe for a mixture amount though. Is it equal amounts?
:)

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

Nothing yet has been found to completely remove henna from hair, although both conventional peroxide and bleach, used very carefully have been reported to lighten it considerably. There are 2 other threads that you may find helpful, here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and here http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=19317.

It depends on a number of factors, like how much henna is on your hair etc.

Honey lightening can lighten henna and it removed a henna mix (not pure henna but henna and other plants) from hair in 1 only report. The mix had only been done once.

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. See my signature post or read the links here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1, for details.

Basically, conditioner ingredients can interfere with lightening and the pH is too low for optimal honey lightening.

If you have any questions after having a look at the post I just linked, please post again and I will reply.

Nazneen
January 29th, 2009, 11:14 AM
Thanks so much for the warm welcome and the links. I am reading through them.
This maybe a crazy question but has anyone tried mixing mineral oil & honey together? Would that do anything? I don't know why I thought of that.

ktani
January 29th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Thanks so much for the warm welcome and the links. I am reading through them.
This maybe a crazy question but has anyone tried mixing mineral oil & honey together? Would that do anything? I don't know why I thought of that.

You are most welcome!

I do not consider any question crazy.

Honey only releases peroxide when diluted with a liquid that contains water. Mineral oil is a liquid but it does not contain water.

ktani
January 29th, 2009, 11:27 AM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm

ktani
January 30th, 2009, 07:18 AM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

Nazneen
January 30th, 2009, 09:09 PM
Quick question...if I am able to remove the henna from my hair would it be safe to use a store bought dye to color my hair blonde?

ktani
January 30th, 2009, 09:36 PM
Quick question...if I am able to remove the henna from my hair would it be safe to use a store bought dye to color my hair blonde?

Nothing yet has been reported to completely remove henna from hair. It has been lightened enough by bleach to be recoloured to a previous colour over coconut oil as a pre treatment, with no damage reported, but only 2 hennas had done.

Bianca - bleach and then conventional colour
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=378317&postcount=111

her thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=16279

Honey lightening has been reported only once, to remove a henna mix (henna and natural plants) but the mix had only been used once.

Dying over henna with blonde hair dye, is not going to give you blonde hair colour. Depending on how much henna you have on your hair, it may not even be noticable.

ktani
January 31st, 2009, 07:49 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

Tapioca
January 31st, 2009, 02:00 PM
I've been using the honey treat (new dilution) to lighten out my henna/cassia mix. My henna was light to begin with, turning me from blonde to strawberry blonde. My first try was with just honey and distilled water, applied with a mister. In retrospect, I should have applied it outside or standing in the shower. I ended up with a sticky mirror (and bathroom walls and floor). My next try was with 1 tsp cinnamon added (after a skin patch test), applied with a squeeze bottle. Much messier application. Another sticky bathroom. But slightly better results. This last batch was the new dilution with 1 tbsp each of cinnamon and cardamom and 2 tbsp EVOO, applied with a squeeze bottle, but in the shower, so it was easier clean-up. Much better results, too. Much lighter. (As far as the condition of my hair, I've not noticed honey making it softer. But it's also not doing anything bad, either. My hair feels the same as it did before.)
My question is this: The easiest application was with a mister bottle, but I got the best results when I added spices. Spices would clog up the mister. Would there be any problem with straining them out first? For example: Mix up the treatment, let it sit at room temperature for one hour, strain it through a coffee filter, then pour it into the mister. Do the spices need to stay in the mix past that first hour?

ktani
January 31st, 2009, 02:06 PM
I've been using the honey treat (new dilution) to lihten out my henna/cassia mix. My henna was light to begin with, turning me from blonde to strawberry blonde. My first try was with just honey and distilled water, applied with a mister. In retrospect, I should have applied it outside or standing in the shower. I ended up with a sticky mirror (and bathroom walls and floor). My next try was with a 1 tsp cinnamon added (after a skin patch test), applied with a squeeze bottle. Much messier application. Another sticky bathroom. But slightly better results. This last batch was the new dilution with 1 tbsp each of cinnamon and cardamom and 2 tbsp EVOO, applied with a squeeze bottle, but in the shower, so it was easier clean-up. Much better results, too. Much lighter. (As far as the condition of my hair, I've not noticed honey making it softer. But it's also not doing anything bad, either. My hair feels the same as it did before.)
My question is this: The easiest application was with a mister bottle, but I got the best results when I added spices. Spices would clog up the mister. Would there be any problem with straining them out first? For example: Mix up the treatment, let it sit at room temperature for one hour, strain it through a coffee filter, then pour it into the mister. Do the spices need to stay in the mix past that first hour?

I am glad to hear that you have had great results and that you are pleased with the condition of your hair, post honey lightening. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair yet, in 5 honey threads to date, no matter how often it is used or how long a recipe has been left on the hair.

That is an excellent question IMO, and the answer is I do not see why you cannot strain the recipe after 1 hour. It is possible that past 1 hour, the spices could continue to produce peroxide but 1 hour should be sufficient.

Marchpane
January 31st, 2009, 02:55 PM
Hi there, I was wondering if I could ask a quick question. ^^
How strong are its lightening capabilities? I read that putting a little in your hair gel will make blonde hair brighter and wavier... not sure if that's true, but if I did use a little, would it permanently lighten my hair? I don't want to change my hair colour very much, although I wouldn't mind it a tiny bit brighter. Maybe I'm just asking for trouble using honey though. Thanks very much!

ktani
January 31st, 2009, 03:01 PM
Hi there, I was wondering if I could ask a quick question. ^^
How strong are its lightening capabilities? I read that putting a little in your hair gel will make blonde hair brighter and wavier... not sure if that's true, but if I did use a little, would it permanently lighten my hair? I don't want to change my hair colour very much, although I wouldn't mind it a tiny bit brighter. Maybe I'm just asking for trouble using honey though. Thanks very much!

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide when it is diluted in a liquid that contains water.

If you were to add honey to your hair gel and apply it to your hair, it would dry faster than the honey would have time to release very much peroxide, so the answer to that is no.

The hair gel would need to be kept very wet for about an hour to do that and hair gels do not contain much water as a rule.

It also depends on what is in the hair gel.

Aloe vera gel, for example contains 3 x the amount of Vitamin C than raw lemon juice, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429. Vitamin C is oxidized by hydrogen peroxide, depleting the peroxide.

Marchpane
January 31st, 2009, 03:05 PM
Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide when it is diluted in a liquid that contains water.

If you were to add honey to your hair gel and apply it to your hair, it would dry faster than the honey would have time to release very much peroxide, so the answer to that is no.

The hair gel would need to be kept very wet for about an hour to do that and hair gels do not contain much water as a rule.

It also depends on what is in the hair gel.

Aloe vera gel, for example contains 3 x the amount of Vitamin C than raw lemon juice, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429. Vitamin C is oxidized by hydrogen peroxide, depleting the peroxide.


Ahh I see, thank you very much for your speedy response. :) So would I basically be just wasting some honey if I tried this? Or would it have a small or any effect?

ktani
January 31st, 2009, 03:18 PM
Ahh I see, thank you very much for your speedy response. :) So would I basically be just wasting some honey if I tried this? Or would it have a small or any effect?

You are most welcome!

IMO, you would be wasting your time.

Tapioca
January 31st, 2009, 03:58 PM
I am glad to hear that you have had great results and that you are pleased with the condition of your hair, post honey lightening. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair yet, in 5 honey threads to date, no matter how often it is used or how long a recipe has been left on the hair.

That is an excellent question IMO, and the answer is I do not see why you cannot strain the recipe after 1 hour. It is possible that past 1 hour, the spices could continue to produce peroxide but 1 hour should be sufficient.

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to try the straining technique next time and see how it goes. And yes, to clarify... My hair was in good shape before the honey treatment, and it's still in good shape. It just didn't do anything *extra* for me, other than the lightening of color. But I've noticed in the past that the SMT didn't do anything for me, either. YMMV. Honey didn't moisturize my hair very well, but I've read many testimonies on this thread where it worked great for others. What works for some doesn't work for all.

ktani
January 31st, 2009, 04:03 PM
Thanks for the reply. I'm going to try the straining technique next time and see how it goes. And yes, to clarify... My hair was in good shape before the honey treatment, and it's still in good shape. It just didn't do anything *extra* for me, other than the lightening of color. But I've noticed in the past that the SMT didn't do anything for me, either. YMMV. Honey didn't moisturize my hair very well, but I've read many testimonies on this thread where it worked great for others. What works for some doesn't work for all.

That is very true. Some people get great conditioning results from the new recipes.

As long as you got lightening that is what matters but most important, to me, is that your hair was not damaged.

I am pleased for you that you are pleased with your results and thank you for the clarification.

ljkforu
January 31st, 2009, 08:07 PM
Thanks for the reply. I'm going to try the straining technique next time and see how it goes. And yes, to clarify... My hair was in good shape before the honey treatment, and it's still in good shape. It just didn't do anything *extra* for me, other than the lightening of color. But I've noticed in the past that the SMT didn't do anything for me, either. YMMV. Honey didn't moisturize my hair very well, but I've read many testimonies on this thread where it worked great for others. What works for some doesn't work for all.
Regarding SMT It seems that if your hair is healthy with the cuticles closed you're not going to get much out of it. Whoever, if your hair is fried or just porous it is going to suck up the moisture provided it like a sponge. My hair actually felt physically heavier after both the honey treatment and the SMT. Then again 2/3 of my hair has been exposed to commercial hair dye so it goes to figure.

Marchpane
January 31st, 2009, 09:54 PM
You are most welcome!

IMO, you would be wasting your time.


Hehe, yeah I had a feeling. XD Thanks again!!

ktani
February 1st, 2009, 06:34 AM
Hehe, yeah I had a feeling. XD Thanks again!!

You are most welcome!

ktani
February 1st, 2009, 09:09 PM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

ljkforu
February 1st, 2009, 11:19 PM
Before Picture

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=2442&pictureid=30637

:rolleyes: I did it again

Since the soap nuts stripped out a bunch of my natural dyes my commericial dye showed through again, so I thought I take another round with honey to lighten it up since it worked so well the first time.

I used and weighed on a scale and measured:

1 oz fireweed honey
3 1/4 oz water (my hand shook)
1 T each freshly ground cardamom, cassia, and evoo

I shook the heck out of it and didn't let it sit for an hour. I figured it would do it on my hair like last time.

I squished it good into the blackish ends and made sure it was really wet. Then put it in a shower cap away from the heat of my head and accidentally fell asleep for a couple of hours. It looks like I got good results. I'll take a picture tomorrow and compare it with the one I took a couple of days ago.

ktani
February 2nd, 2009, 01:14 PM
Before Picture

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=2442&pictureid=30637

:rolleyes: I did it again

Since the soap nuts stripped out a bunch of my natural dyes my commericial dye showed through again, so I thought I take another round with honey to lighten it up since it worked so well the first time.

I used and weighed on a scale and measured:

1 oz fireweed honey
3 1/4 oz water (my hand shook)
1 T each freshly ground cardamom, cassia, and evoo

I shook the heck out of it and didn't let it sit for an hour. I figured it would do it on my hair like last time.

I squished it good into the blackish ends and made sure it was really wet. Then put it in a shower cap away from the heat of my head and accidentally fell asleep for a couple of hours. It looks like I got good results. I'll take a picture tomorrow and compare it with the one I took a couple of days ago.

Great news! If you are trying for the new dilution it should be 4 oz of water but with your previous results, 3 or 3 1/4 oz should be fine.

Can you please fix the picture link? I am excited to see your hair and want to add your results to the Pictures Posts, if the difference in colour is visible. Picture lighting can be so tricky!

ktani
February 2nd, 2009, 01:16 PM
This may be why baby shampoo and honey has not worked for some people, to help remove conventional hair dye. The combined pH would be too low, with the acidity of most honeys on the market.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=445625&postcount=4

I also discovered (or checked on and realized this).
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=446943&postcount=9

ktani
February 3rd, 2009, 07:01 AM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
February 3rd, 2009, 07:44 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
February 4th, 2009, 07:01 PM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
February 5th, 2009, 04:17 PM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

ktani
February 5th, 2009, 05:03 PM
I posted this where it belongs in Canadian recalls but I am posting it here too. More people read this thread.

Canadian peanut butter recall list. It is not just peanut butter being recalled.
http://efoodalert.blogspot.com/2009/01/us-peanut-butter-products-recalled-in.html

The American list, with updates.
http://www.fda.gov/oc/opacom/hottopics/Salmonellatyph.html

ktani
February 6th, 2009, 11:27 AM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded). Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
February 7th, 2009, 06:42 AM
I think that honey lightening recipes with ground (powdered) cinnamon are safe to use but I would alternate them with other recipes, not to get too much coumarin at one time, or too often (unless Ceylon cinnamon is available http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm). The recommended maximum is 2 tablespoons ground cinnamon per treatment. I suggest alternating using just honey and distilled water or honey and cardamom and distilled water (coconut oil and evoo are optional).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom can be skin sensitizers. Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon and has a higher peroxide value. Patch test before using either spice.

Cardamom
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/CardamomSeed.htm

It really depends on the frequency of one's honey lightening routine and preferred recipe.

Even though I have posted about the ground cassia cinnamon, coumarin connection before, it is always good IMO, to review research again.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380

Overuse of ground cassia cinnamon is not recommended.

ktani
February 7th, 2009, 02:26 PM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ktani
February 8th, 2009, 11:15 AM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
February 8th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Storing honey lightening ingredients

Honey
"Store honey at room temperature with .... lid on tightly."
http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57 (http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57)

Ground spices
"Ground spices will keep .... 1 year .... Spices should be kept away from the heat, light and humidity .... prevent flavor and color loss." http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf (http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf)

Coconut oil
"Coconut oil's fatty acid profile .... about 92% saturated fat, making it very stable and safe to store at room temperature."
http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=247

"To ideally safeguard the nutritive value and longevity of your oils, keep them in a cool (40° F to 72° F), dark cupboard until opening .... then store them in your refrigerator. Storage under these conditions provides .... shelf life of 10-14 months for unrefined oils, and 14-20 months for refined oils."
http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=16


Extra Virgin Olive Oil
"Olive oil connoisseurs recommend storing .... extra-virgin olive oils at room temperature."
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm (http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm)

Water
Store .... water .... in a cool, dark place.
Replace water every six months."
http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/info.asp?page=2839

Opened water
"To minimize exposure to bacteria, open a container just before use and then refrigerate it .... If no refrigeration .... available, keep the container up high, away from children and pets.
Direct heat and light .... slowly damage plastic containers resulting in eventual leakage .... they should be stored in a dark, cool and dry place.
Water can also be stored in a freezer."
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SS439

ljkforu
February 9th, 2009, 12:25 AM
I'm having good results removing soft black Natural Instincts brand hair color from my bottom 8 inches.

I know it is the wrong proportions but since it worked for me I stuck with it.

I measured the honey to water volume on my bottle and it was 1 oz by volume fireweed honey to 3 oz by volume tap water (soft new pipes). 1 T. Freshly ground Cardamom seeds and 1 T freshly ground papery Cinnamon.

I put this on the black ends and slept with it on my hair overnight with a plastic shower cap and towel underneath.

I got decent results but very crunchy ends. It actually scared me a little because they looked like my cat had tried to digest them. Fortunately Ktani told me to shampoo really well, condition and use my acid rinse (1/8 t vit C in 20 oz water) which I was out of that prior week.

Hair is all back to normal with no damage it appears that it really was just honey buildup and not fry damage.

The top picture is after and the bottom 2 are before

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu331/ljkforu/0208092250.jpg

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu331/ljkforu/0130092311.jpg

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu331/ljkforu/0130092310.jpg

ktani
February 9th, 2009, 12:32 AM
I'm having good results removing soft black Natural Instincts brand hair color from my bottom 8 inches.

I know it is the wrong proportions but since it worked for me I stuck with it.

I measured the honey to water volume on my bottle and it was 1 oz by volume fireweed honey to 3 oz by volume tap water (soft new pipes). 1 T. Freshly ground Cardamom seeds and 1 T freshly ground papery Cinnamon.

I put this on the black ends and slept with it on my hair overnight with a plastic shower cap and towel underneath.

I got decent results but very crunchy ends. It actually scared me a little because they looked like my cat had tried to digest them. Fortunately Ktani told me to shampoo really well and use my acid rinse which I was out of that week.

Hair is all back to normal with no damage it appears that it really was just honey buildup and not fry damage.

Just to be clear, your recipe is not the new dilution but it is the right dilution for your honey and water, based on your results.

Most honeys on the market are between pH 3.2 and 4.5. However, there are honeys with a pH at or closer to 6, which is the optimal pH for a honey to produce peroxide. With the right water, either distilled or tap water with a pH close to or at 7 and very few minerals, a lower dilution or concentration should work very well.

ljkforu
February 9th, 2009, 12:34 AM
Just to be clear, your recipe is not the new dilution but it is the right dilution for your honey and water, based on your results.

Most honeys on the market are between pH 3.2 and 4.5. However, there are honeys with a pH at or closer to 6, which is the optimal pH for a honey to produce peroxide. With the right water, either distilled or tap water with a pH close to or at 7 and very few minerals, a lower dilution or concentration should work very well.
I figure don't fix it if it isn't broken. If I make it somewhere else I'll follow the recipe correctly.

ktani
February 9th, 2009, 12:41 AM
I figure don't fix it if it isn't broken. If I make it somewhere else I'll follow the recipe correctly.

I forgot to mention that I am glad that the honey residue was removed and that you are happy with the condition of your hair.

Your recipe is great with that honey and water. If you change honey brands or type, you may have different results. I recommend that you stay with the one you have, regardless of where you make the recipe.

ktani
February 9th, 2009, 10:17 AM
I'm having good results removing soft black Natural Instincts brand hair color from my bottom 8 inches.

I know it is the wrong proportions but since it worked for me I stuck with it.

I measured the honey to water volume on my bottle and it was 1 oz by volume fireweed honey to 3 oz by volume tap water (soft new pipes). 1 T. Freshly ground Cardamom seeds and 1 T freshly ground papery Cinnamon.

I put this on the black ends and slept with it on my hair overnight with a plastic shower cap and towel underneath.

I got decent results but very crunchy ends. It actually scared me a little because they looked like my cat had tried to digest them. Fortunately Ktani told me to shampoo really well, condition and use my acid rinse (1/8 t vit C in 20 oz water) which I was out of that prior week.

Hair is all back to normal with no damage it appears that it really was just honey buildup and not fry damage.

The top picture is after and the bottom 2 are before

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu331/ljkforu/0208092250.jpg

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu331/ljkforu/0130092311.jpg

http://i661.photobucket.com/albums/uu331/ljkforu/0130092310.jpg


I see that yo got the pictures up. Thank you so much for posting them. Now I can see why you are so pleased with honey lightening.

ktani
February 9th, 2009, 07:31 PM
Honey lightening on dark, dyed hair


Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

gallows gallery - dyed black hair over henna on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution and Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

ljkforu - on previously black dyed ends, hennaed hair, with tap water, ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455932&postcount=3335

ljkforu - more information on her honey lightening recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=433208&postcount=3270

ljkforu - feedback from those around her, in real life
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=437566&postcount=3282

lundmir, after 1 treatment, of honey, distilled water and ground cinnamon, on previously dyed and henned hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681359&postcount=3989, method and washing out details, - http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=681389&postcount=3991

ktani
February 9th, 2009, 10:00 PM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
February 9th, 2009, 10:01 PM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, as well as in the Honey threads, past and current (this one), to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
<A href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm" target=_blank>http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ktani
February 10th, 2009, 07:18 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
February 10th, 2009, 10:49 AM
Pictures of honey lightening

On blonde hair

firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution and after with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after 1 treatment - using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png, from this post, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair and feedback from those around her in real life.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

ktani
February 10th, 2009, 11:53 AM
Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

ktani
February 10th, 2009, 12:15 PM
More on tap water

Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).


".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
February 10th, 2009, 06:06 PM
Another honey scandal. No wonder it can be difficult to find a decent honey for honey lightening! Thank you, Raederle.

It is called honey laundering!

January, 2009
"To get around tariffs and rightly skeptical American consumers, the Chinese honey is shipped to Vietnam, Russia, Thailand and the Grand Bahamas .... where they are relabeled as Vietnamese, Russian, etc. and shipped to the United States .... American companies such as Sue Bee, Silver Bow and Pure Foods that import and distribute the honey seem, at best, willfully ignorant of the practice. Buy Local Honey!"
http://www.hive-mind.com/bee/blog/2009/01/honey-laundering-revisited.html

December, 2008

Detailed article
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/394053_honey30.asp

"So-called "honey laundering" involves elaborate schemes in which cheap, diluted or contaminated honey from China is brought in after being "laundered" in another country to disguise its origin and evade tariffs and health inspections.
.... five-month investigation by the Seattle Post-Intelligencer newspaper found .... international honey trade rife with criminal enterprises designed to take advantage of the demand for imports created by the mysterious collapse of bee colonies across America."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/4043733/US-officials-crack-down-on-Chinese-honey-laundering.html

This is from 2004 Honey scandals - Europe and U.S.
"... adding to the turbulence in the global honey market - ultrafiltered or "UF" honey. First noticed in the US, it is honey with almost everything taken out, including the impurities.
.... a test by the board earlier this year, nine out of 69 samples taken from American supermarket shelves proved to be UF honey.
This product .... is, according to most honey experts, not honey at all.
UF, rather than contaminated honey, ... now the real threat to the purity of honey internationally
" a lot of packers deny it, ... it could be used quite widely in the American food industry instead of the real thing."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...265467,00.html

ktani
February 11th, 2009, 12:35 PM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

squiggyflop
February 11th, 2009, 07:18 PM
your hair get all tangly and you got no lightening, then nothing.



I would like to know more about what happened please.



This is news to me. I do not doubt you I am just shocked.

oh well yeah i did get breakage when i did it.. unfortunately tangles usually equals breakage for me.. even after clarifying a few times the residue caused so many tangles and mattes.. some of the mattes the last time i tried it (i didnt post in the honey thread that time) were so bad that they needed to be cut out.. when i braided/bunned my hair it would fuse together into one matte.. sorry that i didnt post my last attempt in the honey section.. i didnt want to get my hopes up so i didnt say anything about it..

i did an experiment the last time to see the residue..

i took a sample shed hair before the treatment.. then after the treatment and first clarifying.. after clarifying there was alot of residue..

then i clarified again.. the slide still showed tons of residue and even some hairs that were spot-glued together by the residue.. third clarifying showed improvement in the amount of residue..

the 4th clarifying showed very little residue under the microscope and the hair was less tangly..



by the time the ordeal was over with i had broken alot of the hair off from the tangles and literally overnight 80&#37; of my hairs were split (after just trimming the hair the day before the treatment)



so im thinking my hair must really hate honey..either that or ive just got weird honey hating water in my house (i heard water can effect hair treatments).. i used a different honey that time (from your list).. i didnt see any lightening.. i wont be attempting this again..



ill be doing nightshades sun in thing



Could please do me a huge favour and post the contents of this pm in Honey?



Just as it is. I knew it was residue and for some unknown reason - your water or whatever, your residue was very different.

Others get it but have no problems shampooing it out with no splits or breakage but I would like to define this as what it is - residue not peroxide damage.

I am saving this pm for my files but I do not post pms without permission and it is your story.



I really appreciate your getting back to me on this.



I wish you well and thank you.

10 more characters.. yes it was a residue issue.. im wondering if this is like how my hair only needs 20 minutes to get color from henna.. maybe my hair soaks up more residue than other peoples.. i dont know im just guessing at this point.. my hair is just weird

ktani
February 11th, 2009, 08:13 PM
10 more characters.. yes it was a residue issue.. im wondering if this is like how my hair only needs 20 minutes to get color from henna.. maybe my hair soaks up more residue than other peoples.. i dont know im just guessing at this point.. my hair is just weird

Thank you for posting this.

I wish I could say I know why you hair reacted the way it did but I have no answer to this. At the time, I thought that it may be a reaction between your honey and your shampoo and conditioner but this really has me perplexed. I did not hear back from you then, and I wish I had known about the breakage at the time.

I do understand why you were so upset and did not want to post but this should be here for others to see, as an extreme example of what could happen and I am very appreciative that you said yes to my request.

Honey residue has been reported but not with breakage as a result when shampoo has been used to remove it. This is a very unusual result that you had at least twice, if not more.

I do not think that you have weird hair. There is an answer here somewhere but I cannot see it. It may just be everything, your honey, the water and your products all colliding to do this. Your hair may for some reason, just grab onto coatings.

ljkforu
February 11th, 2009, 08:36 PM
Squiggy ignore this if you aren't comfortable answering it --

If your hair uptakes henna so fast it must be porous which does make hair more easy to break. What is your ethnic background and what shape is your hair under the microscope. Might it be grooved or wiry.

My boyfriend is Apache/Navajo/Spanish his hair is so different from mine it is very course and wiry and responds strangely to chemicals. I have Asian type hair even though I am Hebrew(Arab)/Anglo/Cree Indian and my hair won't perm correctly and it stretches almost 1 inch to 1 1/2 inches even where it has been dyed. My ex-husband was a native Kikuyu from Kenya and his hair was unlike anything I have ever dealt with before, his beard actually tried to coil into his skin and the hair was very brittle.

So now that I've made it abundantly clear that I'm not a racist -- I think we need to take genetics into account on how peoples hair takes things. I know that I can hold Katam and Indigo 6 times longer than the people that colored the same day as me but soap nuts took it all out on 2 washings where it doesn't on others.

I really had fun one time with one of my teachers. She is a Ph.D. Anthropologist and Archaeologist (double degree) and I agreed to let her feel my skull and look at my hair (obviously genetics is a big interest of mine too). She said that I have the skull of a Cree Indian and the hair of every race imaginable including some African American kinky ones, smooth blue black ones and some blond ones, oh forgot red. But the overall impression is of a brown haired Irish American. lol

ktani
February 12th, 2009, 08:53 AM
Honey residue

Honey residue varies with the honey used. It has been reported with the use of both raw and pasteurized honey and it has been reported to be easily be removed by longer water rinses, vinegar, and shampoo the best, with no long term side effects like damage (breaksge or split ends).

Squiggy's case is an exception but should be noted. There was one other case, where water only was used to try to remove honey residue, and that result (water only, did not work), did not surprise me, based on other reports.

Shampooing helped Squiggy, but the residue result returned with a vengence repeatedly, even with a change in honeys and water (distilled).

Some honeys have left no discernable residue and honey residue, with honey lightening is not inevitible or a given. It has been reported elsewhere on the boards, when honey has been used for conditioning. That is how I figured out what it was (hair was described as feeling coated).

Initially, in the original Honey thread, a light vinegar rinse was the advice I gave to deal with it and that seemed to help in some instances but shampoo by far, has been reported to be the best way to resolve the problem.

It does not have to be a clarifying shampoo, but a shampoo with less extras; silicone, oils, waxy ingredients and polymers, a clear shampoo for normal hair, is probably best.

The reason I think that water may be an issue is that most waters other than distilled water, contain minerals. Minerals can deplete peroxide levels in honey lightening recipes and they can also build-up on hair.

I still have no answer to Squiggy's results.

Her results though are out of the "norm" of honey lightening results reported to date, in their severity.

squiggyflop
February 12th, 2009, 11:37 AM
Squiggy ignore this if you aren't comfortable answering it --

If your hair uptakes henna so fast it must be porous which does make hair more easy to break. What is your ethnic background and what shape is your hair under the microscope. Might it be grooved or wiry.

My boyfriend is Apache/Navajo/Spanish his hair is so different from mine it is very course and wiry and responds strangely to chemicals. I have Asian type hair even though I am Hebrew(Arab)/Anglo/Cree Indian and my hair won't perm correctly and it stretches almost 1 inch to 1 1/2 inches even where it has been dyed. My ex-husband was a native Kikuyu from Kenya and his hair was unlike anything I have ever dealt with before, his beard actually tried to coil into his skin and the hair was very brittle.

I really had fun one time with one of my teachers. She is a Ph.D. Anthropologist and Archaeologist (double degree) and I agreed to let her feel my skull and look at my hair (obviously genetics is a big interest of mine too). She said that I have the skull of a Cree Indian and the hair of every race imaginable including some African American kinky ones, smooth blue black ones and some blond ones, oh forgot red. But the overall impression is of a brown haired Irish American. lol

ok so i took another look..
i looked at
body hair vs scalp hair (virgin)
canopy hair vs underside hair (virgin roots only)
hair cut with paper scissors vs hair scissors
virgin canopy vs henna canopy
virgin underside vs henna underside
bleach damaged ends vs henna only on same hair

ok so here are my findings..

ok so body hair vs scalp hair..
the body hair appeared dark to the naked eye but under the microscope the cortex was a brownish dull yellow.. there was no medulla to be seen and the shaft was very thick and had rough edges..
the scalp hair (virgin roots from canopy) appeared light reddish brown to the naked eye.. however under the microscope the cortex was an orange color and as i looked the orange was not constant to the whole section of hair.. it was mixed in with yellow.. some areas in the sample had the orange where some did not (sample was 1 cm).. the hair was very smooth with no damage visible.. the medulla was not constant in this sample.. more like a dotted line.. hair from sample was not grooved..

canopy hair vs underside hair (virgin roots only)
canopy hair was very thick and course.. felt like cotton thread to the fingers.. medulla was not constant but was present in sample.. refer to the section above for more on the virgin canopy hair^^hair was perfectly smooth and uniform in thickness
underside hair was very fine when compared to canopy hair.. like silk when rolled between fingers and barely visible to the naked eye when held against light.. medulla did not appear to be present at all.. there was no visible damage and the hair was perfectly smooth and uniform in thickness.. the coloring of the underside hair was different to the canopy hair.. there was no orange patches on the underside sample.. just a rather dull yellow.. (makes sense to me because my underside grows in a dull brown and my canopy grows in reddish brown and in the sun individual hairs glitter red on the canopy)

hair cut with paper scissors vs hair scissors (did this one just for fun)
the hair cut with paper scissors was absolutely shredded at the ends on both samples (one from canopy one from underside)
the hair cut with hair scissors was blunt on the ends on both samples even under the highest magnification...

virgin canopy vs henna canopy (same hair)
virgin canopy.. refer to the above for more on the virgin sample..
hennaed canopy from the same hair.. the hair was red all the way through the cortex.. when i looked at an old slide of my hair dyed pink there was no staining in the cortex so henna must penetrate the hair better than conventional dye.. the hennaed hair appeared smooth and uniform thickness.. no grooves or anything weird.. the medulla was not constant

virgin underside vs henna underside (same hair)
virgin underside see above^^ for more info on virgin underside sample
henna underside.. sample appeared red all the way through.. the medulla was either not present or too thin for me to see.. hair was smooth and uniform thickness.. no visible damage..

bleach damaged ends vs henna only on same hair (canopy hair.. my underside grows faster so ive already trimmed off all the bleach on the underside)
bleach damaged ends (with henna over the bleach) appeared lighter to the eye.. i remember the henna not wanting to stick to them when i first started using henna.. under the microscope there was some visible damage.. the edges appeared slightly rough.. the henna appeared to have stained the cortex less and was inconsistent in color (even though back then i was using the same brand of henna and was leaving it on for 6 hours).. hair is uniform in thickness (no grooves or anything)..
henna only appeared to be darker in comparison and had smooth edges..the henna stain was consistent and cortex was stained darker.. hair was uniform in thickness.. no grooves no bumps.. medulla was not constant but was present..


i also did some strength tests (i held the hair and added weight until it snapped)
canopy hairs held
6 brand-new paper mate click pencils.. in the first try
10 paper mate click pencils on second try
1 pair of large stainless steel scissors and a pencil the third try

underside hairs
4 paper mate pencils first try
5 paper mate pencils second try
snapped the second the stainless steel scissors were strung on
i tried again for the scissors but again it snapped the second they were strung on..

my ethnic background.. well 1/4 northern Italian
1/4 Lithuanian (spelling?)
1/2 ??? mom was adopted.. her bio-mothers maiden name was irish though..
i was born with black eyes that changed directly to brown (no blue ever).. some people have suggested to me that this is evidence of somewhere back in my ancestry there was Asian or middle eastern people mixed in.. but as ive said my mom was adopted so ive got no clue..

im not sure if this answers your question but i had fun doing the experiments.. i think ill post this stuff in my blog too..

how do i see porosity under a microscope?

ktani sorry about the non honey related post but i figured i should be thorough in answering her question..

ktani
February 12th, 2009, 11:51 AM
ok so i took another look..
i looked at
body hair vs scalp hair (virgin)
canopy hair vs underside hair (virgin roots only)
hair cut with paper scissors vs hair scissors
virgin canopy vs henna canopy
virgin underside vs henna underside
bleach damaged ends vs henna only on same hair

ok so here are my findings..

ok so body hair vs scalp hair..
the body hair appeared dark to the naked eye but under the microscope the cortex was a brownish dull yellow.. there was no medulla to be seen and the shaft was very thick and had rough edges..
the scalp hair (virgin roots from canopy) appeared light reddish brown to the naked eye.. however under the microscope the cortex was an orange color and as i looked the orange was not constant to the whole section of hair.. it was mixed in with yellow.. some areas in the sample had the orange where some did not (sample was 1 cm).. the hair was very smooth with no damage visible.. the medulla was not constant in this sample.. more like a dotted line.. hair from sample was not grooved..

canopy hair vs underside hair (virgin roots only)
canopy hair was very thick and course.. felt like cotton thread to the fingers.. medulla was not constant but was present in sample.. refer to the section above for more on the virgin canopy hair^^hair was perfectly smooth and uniform in thickness
underside hair was very fine when compared to canopy hair.. like silk when rolled between fingers and barely visible to the naked eye when held against light.. medulla did not appear to be present at all.. there was no visible damage and the hair was perfectly smooth and uniform in thickness.. the coloring of the underside hair was different to the canopy hair.. there was no orange patches on the underside sample.. just a rather dull yellow.. (makes sense to me because my underside grows in a dull brown and my canopy grows in reddish brown and in the sun individual hairs glitter red on the canopy)

hair cut with paper scissors vs hair scissors (did this one just for fun)
the hair cut with paper scissors was absolutely shredded at the ends on both samples (one from canopy one from underside)
the hair cut with hair scissors was blunt on the ends on both samples even under the highest magnification...

virgin canopy vs henna canopy (same hair)
virgin canopy.. refer to the above for more on the virgin sample..
hennaed canopy from the same hair.. the hair was red all the way through the cortex.. when i looked at an old slide of my hair dyed pink there was no staining in the cortex so henna must penetrate the hair better than conventional dye.. the hennaed hair appeared smooth and uniform thickness.. no grooves or anything weird.. the medulla was not constant

virgin underside vs henna underside (same hair)
virgin underside see above^^ for more info on virgin underside sample
henna underside.. sample appeared red all the way through.. the medulla was either not present or too thin for me to see.. hair was smooth and uniform thickness.. no visible damage..

bleach damaged ends vs henna only on same hair (canopy hair.. my underside grows faster so ive already trimmed off all the bleach on the underside)
bleach damaged ends (with henna over the bleach) appeared lighter to the eye.. i remember the henna not wanting to stick to them when i first started using henna.. under the microscope there was some visible damage.. the edges appeared slightly rough.. the henna appeared to have stained the cortex less and was inconsistent in color (even though back then i was using the same brand of henna and was leaving it on for 6 hours).. hair is uniform in thickness (no grooves or anything)..
henna only appeared to be darker in comparison and had smooth edges..the henna stain was consistent and cortex was stained darker.. hair was uniform in thickness.. no grooves no bumps.. medulla was not constant but was present..


i also did some strength tests (i held the hair and added weight until it snapped)
canopy hairs held
6 brand-new paper mate click pencils.. in the first try
10 paper mate click pencils on second try
1 pair of large stainless steel scissors and a pencil the third try

underside hairs
4 paper mate pencils first try
5 paper mate pencils second try
snapped the second the stainless steel scissors were strung on
i tried again for the scissors but again it snapped the second they were strung on..

my ethnic background.. well 1/4 northern Italian
1/4 Lithuanian (spelling?)
1/2 ??? mom was adopted.. her bio-mothers maiden name was irish though..
i was born with black eyes that changed directly to brown (no blue ever).. some people have suggested to me that this is evidence of somewhere back in my ancestry there was Asian or middle eastern people mixed in.. but as ive said my mom was adopted so ive got no clue..

im not sure if this answers your question but i had fun doing the experiments.. i think ill post this stuff in my blog too..

how do i see porosity under a microscope?

ktani sorry about the non honey related post but i figured i should be thorough in answering her question..

No apology necessary at all. I find this most interesting and very thorough and relevant.

I hijack this thread all the time, lol but I do not think that is what you did.

ljkforu
February 13th, 2009, 02:12 AM
No apology necessary at all. I find this most interesting and very thorough and relevant.

I hijack this thread all the time, lol but I do not think that is what you did.
Very Cool! And extremely interesting. The most interesting thing is that you didn't come up with any of the variations that I would have expected.

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 05:33 AM
Very Cool! And extremely interesting. The most interesting thing is that you didn't come up with any of the variations that I would have expected.

Thank you but I am unsure of what exactly you mean by variations.

If you are referring to the residue problem, people have reported it, but not to the severity posted. They just shampoo and condition, or extra rinse or just use a vinegar rinse and the hair has been reported to return to normal only better in a number of cases, with honey lightening having added extra conditioning. This case stymied me. It still does in that shampoo helped but even with a new honey and distilled water, it returned and was so very difficult to deal with, to the point that it caused breakage. That is unusual.

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 07:26 AM
I do not know how much all of this may be affecting honey choices, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=458364&postcount=3349, but it would not surprise me at all, if it affected some and most probably has done so.

Even here in Canada, Billy Bee honey is now being blended with international honeys, and Billy Bee is a Canadian brand. I am referring to Billy Bee clover honey in the squeeze bear, although it also comes in other containers, a single source (all clover) blend that uses different species of clover. It has been reported in the past, to work well for honey lightening.

I am not saying this is the answer to why for some people, honey lightening has proved to be difficult or has not worked. There are a number of variables. But, this does not help matters.

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 04:53 PM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

MeMyselfandI
February 13th, 2009, 05:15 PM
10 more characters.. yes it was a residue issue.. im wondering if this is like how my hair only needs 20 minutes to get color from henna.. maybe my hair soaks up more residue than other peoples.. i dont know im just guessing at this point.. my hair is just weird

Hi squiggyflop,

I have not experience breakage from honey.

I never thought as my hair absorbing more honey. My hair is very porous as well. I think your guess of your hair absorbing more honey may have merit.

My hair becomes brittle when I use honey. When I wet the hair to rinse out the honey it feels matted together and stiff. I could not even run my fingers through it. The only hair that does not feel brittle is new virgin roots (No henna). I do not know if this is a henna issue. I do know that even some shampoos gives me brittle hair feeling when the hair is wet.

Recently I went through some honey lightening process. I did not use conditioner after because I wanted to do more honey lightening. When the hair dryed, it felt soft and I was able to comb it without any problem.

The only thing that I have found that helps the brittle wet hair is leaving the hair to dry. Once it is dry my hair becomes soft and combable (I know that is not a word). When wet, I doubt I am even properly washing it out because it becomes so stiff. The first time I did the last series of honey treatments I washed my hair three times, and still it felt brittle. I gave up trying to wash out any residue. Like I said once it dryed it felt nice and soft. It felt clean.

.

MeMyselfandI
February 13th, 2009, 05:34 PM
ktani,

I know I read somewhere about the different types of honey.

Today I was looking at honey.

The same company has:
regular honey
clover honey
blueberry honey (I think I remember correctly)
Eucalyptus.

Would any of these be better then the other to use for lightening.

**************

I have not found Billy Bee honey. Doyon honey is sold in a bear bottle. According to the link Billy Bee sells Doyon brand. I do not know if it is the same honey or not.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pwwi/is_200802/ai_n24274172

*************
ktani,

I thought I would mention my experience with this honey.

I use Doyon honey in the past. It removed henna. It did not darken my hair. When that honey ran out I bought a different honey. This honey also removed some henna, yet it left my hair looking darker. I noticed that the first time I used this honey a while ago and this time I used it.

The honey is called:

Organic Honeyt Golden liquid unpasteurized. It is a blend of Brazilian and Canadian honey.

www.naturoney.com


I am looking to buy a different honey for the next time I want to lighten my henna.

**************

I found honey quickly removes henna from my natural hair (not chemically treated). It does not seem to remove it from the chemically treated hair nor from my grey roots. I find the staying power of henna on my grey roots to be amazing since the grey hair at the temple area was difficult to cover with some chemical dyes. I do have very porus hair, which just sucked up chemical dye leaving it much darker then the colour I bought. (Except for the grey hair.)

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 05:40 PM
Hi squiggyflop,

I have not experience breakage from honey.

I never thought as my hair absorbing more honey. My hair is very porous as well. I think your guess of your hair absorbing more honey may have merit.

My hair becomes brittle when I use honey. When I wet the hair to rinse out the honey it feels matted together and stiff. I could not even run my fingers through it. The only hair that does not feel brittle is new virgin roots (No henna). I do not know if this is a henna issue. I do know that even some shampoos gives me brittle hair feeling when the hair is wet.

Recently I went through some honey lightening process. I did not use conditioner after because I wanted to do more honey lightening. When the hair dryed, it felt soft and I was able to comb it without any problem.

The only thing that I have found that helps the brittle wet hair is leaving the hair to dry. Once it is dry my hair becomes soft and combable (I know that is not a word). When wet, I doubt I am even properly washing it out because it becomes so stiff. The first time I did the last series of honey treatments I washed my hair three times, and still it felt brittle. I gave up trying to wash out any residue. Like I said once it dryed it felt nice and soft. It felt clean.

.

This does not sound like "standard" reports on honey residue. The hair has been reported when dry to feel dry and the ends crunchy. After washing and conditioning, the hair has been reported to feel soft and smooth.

Odd that your unhennaed roots felt ok when wet. How long between your last henna and the honey lightening? Did you have breakage? It may be a henna result that you had. Very interesting.

MeMyselfandI
February 13th, 2009, 05:55 PM
This does not sound like "standard" reports on honey residue. The hair has been reported when dry to feel dry and the ends crunchy. After washing and conditioning, the hair has been reported to feel soft and smooth.

Odd that your unhennaed roots felt ok when wet. How long between your last henna and the honey lightening? Did you have breakage? It may be a henna result that you had. Very interesting.

ktani,

It has been 8 weeks since I last hennaed. (Yes I am do for henna.)

I do not know if you remember, the first time I hennaed, I reported the feel of my hair. I had forgot to do a vinegar rinse. It is not that since I do the rinse and it still feels brittle. It does not bother me, now that I know I need to be patient for my hair to dry. I just wanted to mention it, incase someone else reports the samething.

My hair did not break that I noticed. Other then shampooing out the hair. I just leave the hair in the mess untill drys. I do not try to smooth it out or comb it out. Like I said I can not run my hand through so I do not force the issue. I do think I would damage my hair if try to comb it out.

When I normally wash my hair, even if I have not used conditioner I can still used my wooden comb to untangle it.

Like I mentioned before, my hair does feel britle when I use some shampoos since I started using henna. It may be two different things. I never used honey on my hair before I used henna. Even with these issues, I still have no desire to stop using henna.

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 06:05 PM
ktani,

It has been 8 weeks since I last hennaed. (Yes I am do for henna.)

I do not know if you remember, the first time I hennaed, I reported the feel of my hair. I had forgot to do a vinegar rinse. It is not that since I do the rinse and it still feels brittle. It does not bother me, now that I know I need to be patient for my hair to dry. I just wanted to mention it, incase someone else reports the samething.

My hair did not break that I noticed. Other then shampooing out the hair. I just leave the hair in the mess untill drys. I do not try to smooth it out or comb it out. Like I said I can not run my hand through so I do not force the issue. I do think I would damage my hair if try to comb it out.

When I normally wash my hair, even if I have not used conditioner I can still used my wooden comb to untangle it.

Like I mentioned before, my hair does feel britle when I use some shampoos since I started using henna. It may be two different things. I never used honey on my hair before I used henna. Even with these issues, I still have no desire to stop using henna.

Sorry about that, you did say that you had no breakage. I am a little overtired.

Henna actually contains more resin than lawsone. The resin washes out with shampoo between hennaing. How much washes out between applications would depend on how often one shampoos.

Henna Constituents
"Dried, powdered leaves of henna contain .... 0.5 to 1.5 percent lawsone .... chief constituent responsible for the dyeing properties of the plant ...."
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/med-aro/factsheets/henna.html (http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/med-aro/factsheets/henna.html)

Henna resin content - Bureau of Plant Industry - Manilla
"They add that the leaves also contain about 2 per cent of a resin."
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5zV6qzd1hSIJ:www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/pdf/s/sinamono.pdf+hennatannic+acid+resinous&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5zV6qzd1hSIJ:www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/pdf/s/sinamono.pdf+hennatannic+acid+resinous&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca)

As to a good honey, fireweed honey has recently been reported to work very well.
"Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey (Fred Meyer and Kroger stores)"
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

The best honey, in terms of peroxide value would be Jarrah honey.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 06:33 PM
ktani,

I know I read somewhere about the different types of honey.

Today I was looking at honey.

The same company has:
regular honey
clover honey
blueberry honey (I think I remember correctly)
Eucalyptus.

Would any of these be better then the other to use for lightening.

**************

I have not found Billy Bee honey. Doyon honey is sold in a bear bottle. According to the link Billy Bee sells Doyon brand. I do not know if it is the same honey or not.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_pwwi/is_200802/ai_n24274172

*************
ktani,

I thought I would mention my experience with this honey.

I use Doyon honey in the past. It removed henna. It did not darken my hair. When that honey ran out I bought a different honey. This honey also removed some henna, yet it left my hair looking darker. I noticed that the first time I used this honey a while ago and this time I used it.

The honey is called:

Organic Honeyt Golden liquid unpasteurized. It is a blend of Brazilian and Canadian honey.

www.naturoney.com (http://www.naturoney.com)


I am looking to buy a different honey for the next time I want to lighten my henna.

**************

I found honey quickly removes henna from my natural hair (not chemically treated). It does not seem to remove it from the chemically treated hair nor from my grey roots. I find the staying power of henna on my grey roots to be amazing since the grey hair at the temple area was difficult to cover with some chemical dyes. I do have very porus hair, which just sucked up chemical dye leaving it much darker then the colour I bought. (Except for the grey hair.)

Honey has not been reported to darken hair, used in honey lightening, no matter how dark the honey has been. When darkening has been reported, it has turned out to be caused by something else, used in between honey lightening, or just following the use of honey in a rinse. For lynnala, it turned out to be her CV (Chagrin Valley) shampoo bars, made with a lot of castor oil. For firebird, it was a cassia treatment mixed with acidic ingredients. For someone else, their hair turned more yellow and it was straight olive oil. Herbal tea is no longer recommended for use in honey lightening recipes.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=294952&postcount=2364

I have read online that straight undiluted honey can cause stains but that has not been reported with honey and conditioner or the new dilution, which is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, or with other honey lightening recipes, except the ones that included chamomile tea, which if too strong a brew was used, added a golden tone to the hair

ljkforu
February 13th, 2009, 06:56 PM
ok so i took another look..
i looked at
body hair vs scalp hair (virgin)
canopy hair vs underside hair (virgin roots only)
hair cut with paper scissors vs hair scissors
virgin canopy vs henna canopy
virgin underside vs henna underside
bleach damaged ends vs henna only on same hair

ok so here are my findings..

ok so body hair vs scalp hair..
the body hair appeared dark to the naked eye but under the microscope the cortex was a brownish dull yellow.. there was no medulla to be seen and the shaft was very thick and had rough edges..
the scalp hair (virgin roots from canopy) appeared light reddish brown to the naked eye.. however under the microscope the cortex was an orange color and as i looked the orange was not constant to the whole section of hair.. it was mixed in with yellow.. some areas in the sample had the orange where some did not (sample was 1 cm).. the hair was very smooth with no damage visible.. the medulla was not constant in this sample.. more like a dotted line.. hair from sample was not grooved..

canopy hair vs underside hair (virgin roots only)
canopy hair was very thick and course.. felt like cotton thread to the fingers.. medulla was not constant but was present in sample.. refer to the section above for more on the virgin canopy hair^^hair was perfectly smooth and uniform in thickness
underside hair was very fine when compared to canopy hair.. like silk when rolled between fingers and barely visible to the naked eye when held against light.. medulla did not appear to be present at all.. there was no visible damage and the hair was perfectly smooth and uniform in thickness.. the coloring of the underside hair was different to the canopy hair.. there was no orange patches on the underside sample.. just a rather dull yellow.. (makes sense to me because my underside grows in a dull brown and my canopy grows in reddish brown and in the sun individual hairs glitter red on the canopy)

hair cut with paper scissors vs hair scissors (did this one just for fun)
the hair cut with paper scissors was absolutely shredded at the ends on both samples (one from canopy one from underside)
the hair cut with hair scissors was blunt on the ends on both samples even under the highest magnification...

virgin canopy vs henna canopy (same hair)
virgin canopy.. refer to the above for more on the virgin sample..
hennaed canopy from the same hair.. the hair was red all the way through the cortex.. when i looked at an old slide of my hair dyed pink there was no staining in the cortex so henna must penetrate the hair better than conventional dye.. the hennaed hair appeared smooth and uniform thickness.. no grooves or anything weird.. the medulla was not constant

virgin underside vs henna underside (same hair)
virgin underside see above^^ for more info on virgin underside sample
henna underside.. sample appeared red all the way through.. the medulla was either not present or too thin for me to see.. hair was smooth and uniform thickness.. no visible damage..

bleach damaged ends vs henna only on same hair (canopy hair.. my underside grows faster so ive already trimmed off all the bleach on the underside)
bleach damaged ends (with henna over the bleach) appeared lighter to the eye.. i remember the henna not wanting to stick to them when i first started using henna.. under the microscope there was some visible damage.. the edges appeared slightly rough.. the henna appeared to have stained the cortex less and was inconsistent in color (even though back then i was using the same brand of henna and was leaving it on for 6 hours).. hair is uniform in thickness (no grooves or anything)..
henna only appeared to be darker in comparison and had smooth edges..the henna stain was consistent and cortex was stained darker.. hair was uniform in thickness.. no grooves no bumps.. medulla was not constant but was present..


i also did some strength tests (i held the hair and added weight until it snapped)
canopy hairs held
6 brand-new paper mate click pencils.. in the first try
10 paper mate click pencils on second try
1 pair of large stainless steel scissors and a pencil the third try

underside hairs
4 paper mate pencils first try
5 paper mate pencils second try
snapped the second the stainless steel scissors were strung on
i tried again for the scissors but again it snapped the second they were strung on..

my ethnic background.. well 1/4 northern Italian
1/4 Lithuanian (spelling?)
1/2 ??? mom was adopted.. her bio-mothers maiden name was irish though..
i was born with black eyes that changed directly to brown (no blue ever).. some people have suggested to me that this is evidence of somewhere back in my ancestry there was Asian or middle eastern people mixed in.. but as ive said my mom was adopted so ive got no clue..

im not sure if this answers your question but i had fun doing the experiments.. i think ill post this stuff in my blog too..

how do i see porosity under a microscope?

ktani sorry about the non honey related post but i figured i should be thorough in answering her question..
Squiggy, this is awesome and exactly what I was looking for. I think that those of us who can do this should put it in our blog sections so that when oddities come up we can refer to our baseline hair structure.

MeMyselfandI
February 13th, 2009, 06:57 PM
Honey has not been reported to darken hair, used in honey lightening, no matter how dark the honey has been. When darkening has been reported, it has turned out to be caused by something else, used in between honey lightening, or just following the use of honey in a rinse. For lynnala, it turned out to be her CV (Chagrin Valley) shampoo bars, made with a lot of castor oil. For firebird, it was a cassia treatment mixed with acidic ingredients. For someone else, their hair turned more yellow and it was straight olive oil. Herbal tea is no longer recommended for use in honey lightening recipes.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=294952&postcount=2364

I have read online that straight undiluted honey can cause stains but that has not been reported with honey and conditioner or the new dilution, which is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, or with other honey lightening recipes, except the ones that included chamomile tea, which if too strong a brew was used, added a golden tone to the hair

Thanks for the info ktani.

I did not do antything after the honey other then shampoo with either the neutrogena clarifying shampoo or the herbal essense defunkify shampoo. I have both and I alternated them.


Sorry about that, you did say that you had no breakage. I am a little overtired.



Henna actually contains more resin than lawsone. The resin washes out with shampoo between hennaing. How much washes out between applications would depend on how often one shampoos.



Henna Constituents

"Dried, powdered leaves of henna contain .... 0.5 to 1.5 percent lawsone .... chief constituent responsible for the dyeing properties of the plant ...."

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/med-aro/factsheets/henna.html



Henna resin content - Bureau of Plant Industry - Manilla

"They add that the leaves also contain about 2 per cent of a resin."

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5zV6qzd1hSIJ:www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/pdf/s/sinamono.pdf+hennatannic+acid+resinous&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca



As to a good honey, fireweed honey has recently been reported to work very well.

"Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey (Fred Meyer and Kroger stores)"

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin



The best honey, in terms of peroxide value would be Jarrah honey.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Thank you for the intresting info.

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 07:06 PM
Thanks for the info ktani.

I did not do antything after the honey other then shampoo with either the neutrogena clarifying shampoo or the herbal essense defunkify shampoo. I have both and I alternated them.

Thank you for the intresting info.

You are most welcome. How long did the darkening last?

MeMyselfandI
February 13th, 2009, 07:20 PM
You are most welcome. How long did the darkening last?

The henna was removed from my non chemically treated hair, yet my hair looked darker to me.

The first time it lasted until I hennaed again. This time it is still there. I have not hennaed yet. I have done lemon jucie/conditioner treatments and I have done alma/EVOO treatment. The darkness is still there.

Odd. I know.

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 07:24 PM
The henna was removed from my non chemically treated hair, yet my hair looked darker to me.

The first time it lasted until I hennaed again. This time it is still there. I have not hennaed yet. I have done lemon jucie/conditioner treatments and I have done alma/EVOO treatment. The darkness is still there.

Odd. I know.

Amla can stain hair. It contains a light brown dye, http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:mZgoa6g_HUsJ:www.hennaforhair.com/faq/amla/+amla+brown+dye&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1 and "Dyes from the fruit and leaves impart an appealing light-brown or yellow-brown hue to silk and wool. ... sulfate of iron is added as a mordant, the color becomes black.." http://www.worldagroforestrycentre.org/sea/products/afdbases/af/asp/SpeciesInfo.asp?SpID=1764.

MeMyselfandI
February 13th, 2009, 07:36 PM
Amla can stain hair. It contains a light brown dye, http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:mZgoa6g_HUsJ:www.hennaforhair.com/faq/amla/+amla+brown+dye&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1.

Intresting to know about the alma.

You are an amazing wealth of information.

ktani
February 13th, 2009, 07:44 PM
Intresting to know about the alma.

You are an amazing wealth of information.

Thank you. I have been researching various things here for a good while and I have the information file available/or by memory. Then I find it somewhere, double check, and post it. I think that it was the amla, not the honey, that darkened your hair.

ktani
February 14th, 2009, 07:16 AM
This to me is facinating. I love having more details and from a trained professional, generous enough to share them, like rymorg2.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=463366&postcount=45

This, is from the peroxide thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=459057&postcount=330

ktani
February 14th, 2009, 08:03 AM
This is also from the peroxide thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=463041&postcount=434

Hekuro
February 14th, 2009, 10:17 AM
Well, it's been a while, but I finally got around to trying the honey lightening on my eyebrows today.

Zilch, nada, nothing. No results. :(


Specifics:
Distilled water
Orange blossom honey (local)

I tried to measure by weight..but my scale was being finicky. I think the measurements were fairly close, but perhaps not optimal. Next time I will just go by teaspoons.

Put it in a little glass bowl, let sit for 1/2 an hour. Began applying to eyebrows, dabbing on with my finger. Kept reapplying every minute or two for 1.5 hours.

So...it could be that my honey doesn't produce enough peroxide. It could be that my eyebrows are dark enough that they need multiple applications before results will be apparent. It could be that keeping it wet isn't enough, and I need to cover my eyebrows.

I was trying to avoid covering my eyebrows b/c my skin is so sensitive and I've been having skin reactions lately. Honey and water on my face - not a big deal. Plastic and tape - seems like I'd be tempting fate with that one.

I plan to try again tomorrow...I'll give it a few more tries before I begin messing with things (different honey, etc). My eyebrows are almost black so I'm hoping I just need a few applications.

For anyone who's wondering, I'm not trying to bleach them or anything, I was just hoping for a lighter brown. I wanted to see if it would open up my face a bit. Just an experiment out of curiosity, really. I figured if I didn't like the results, it wouldn't take very long for it to grow out, plus I could always use some castor oil to help darken them a bit.

~Hekuro

ktani
February 14th, 2009, 10:23 AM
Well, it's been a while, but I finally got around to trying the honey lightening on my eyebrows today.

Zilch, nada, nothing. No results. :(


Specifics:
Distilled water
Orange blossom honey (local)

I tried to measure by weight..but my scale was being finicky. I think the measurements were fairly close, but perhaps not optimal. Next time I will just go by teaspoons.

Put it in a little glass bowl, let sit for 1/2 an hour. Began applying to eyebrows, dabbing on with my finger. Kept reapplying every minute or two for 1.5 hours.

So...it could be that my honey doesn't produce enough peroxide. It could be that my eyebrows are dark enough that they need multiple applications before results will be apparent. It could be that keeping it wet isn't enough, and I need to cover my eyebrows.

I was trying to avoid covering my eyebrows b/c my skin is so sensitive and I've been having skin reactions lately. Honey and water on my face - not a big deal. Plastic and tape - seems like I'd be tempting fate with that one.

I plan to try again tomorrow...I'll give it a few more tries before I begin messing with things (different honey, etc). My eyebrows are almost black so I'm hoping I just need a few applications.

For anyone who's wondering, I'm not trying to bleach them or anything, I was just hoping for a lighter brown. I wanted to see if it would open up my face a bit. Just an experiment out of curiosity, really. I figured if I didn't like the results, it wouldn't take very long for it to grow out, plus I could always use some castor oil to help darken them a bit.

~Hekuro

If you want to try it again, try 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, and let it sit for 1 hour in advance.
1/2 hour is not enough time IMO, because once applied, it would dry quickly, even with constant application and it would still be producing peroxide.

After being left to sit for 1 hour in advance, most of the peroxide should be produced.

I do not blame you about not wanting to cover them. I am sensitive to some bandage adhesives.

rymorg2
February 15th, 2009, 06:32 AM
This to me is facinating. I love having more details and from a trained professional, generous enough to share them, like rymorg2.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=463366&postcount=45

This, is from the peroxide thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=459057&postcount=330

Thank you again ktani....

I'd much rather share my knowledge and save someone from damaging their hair and losing length. I know how much MY hair means to me and how I'd hate to lose it.

ktani
February 15th, 2009, 06:53 AM
Thank you again ktani....

I'd much rather share my knowledge and save someone from damaging their hair and losing length. I know how much MY hair means to me and how I'd hate to lose it.

You are most welcome and thank you.

rymorg2
February 15th, 2009, 07:56 AM
CROSS POSTED FROM THE PEROXIDE THREAD SINCE THIS IS RELEVANT HERE TOO....

Since we've been discussing damage, let's talk about how to determine how damaged your hair is and what it would need to help correct it.

First of all, the only true "cure" (I use that term lightly LOL) is to cut it off. Sorry, that's how it goes. BUT that said....there is plenty that you can do to help it, and while it may not be a permanent thing and you will have to repeat treatments, it can help you to get to a point where you don't have to be so drastic as to cut. I'm a big proponent of trying everything possible FIRST, then cutting as little as possible to get you to a point where those other treatments will do their jobs. You may be amazed at what a 1/4 to 1/2" trim will do for damage.

So first of all....how to tell how damaged your hair is. In the salon, I use my powers of observation first and foremost. Combing through the hair, either with a comb or my fingers, is the BEST thing to help me tell if the client has any damage. Sometimes it is negligible; sometimes as I comb through I get little tiny hairs breaking off in my fingers or comb, flying through the air....THAT'S the worst. Feel the hair....does the ends and through the length a bit feel dry to you? Does it crackle as you comb or tangle to itself or the comb? Observing is the best tool for this.

Btw, sometimes dry ends and tangling are not caused by chemical damage....anything we do to our hair from updos, combing/brushing, everything causes SOME damage. The idea is to minimize it as best as possible. Some people have resiliant hair that doesn't hardly damage, even under bleaching, while others have hair that just damages at the drop of a hat. Literally. LOL...

As for testing for damage and the strength of hair, even in the salon there is no magic test. Observation first and foremost. The tests for porosity and moisture here on site (cup of water, dropping it in, does it sink or float and testing for stretch as well) are what I learned in hairschool....those tests will, believe it or not, tell you the most. Very occasionally if someone wants a chemical done at my salon but I don't think their hair will stand up beneath it I will do a strand test there by taking a very little bit of hair cut from the most damaged place (that's also in a hard to see area) and testing it using EXACTLY what I plan to use on it for EXACTLY the time that I would need. I used to do this more often in the other salon I worked in....we don't do perms in my salon now. Normally after only a fraction of the time the hair would melt and pull apart in my fingers. When someone sees this and realizes that's what their hair would do on their head....they usually change their minds. So this is what you are looking for in a strand test. SOME give to the hair is optimal and wanted, but if it pulls apart with very little pressure....that's damage, and irreversible.

As for correction, protein treatments would be needed. ALWAYS follow protein treatments with moisture only. This prevents crunchy ends from the protein. Protein needs to be done 2-3 times a week at most (I usually recommend starting with 2 times unless the hair is VERY damaged) and eventually cutting back to once or as needed.

HTH....

ktani
February 15th, 2009, 08:10 AM
CROSS POSTED FROM THE PEROXIDE THREAD SINCE THIS IS RELEVANT HERE TOO....

Since we've been discussing damage, let's talk about how to determine how damaged your hair is and what it would need to help correct it.

First of all, the only true "cure" (I use that term lightly LOL) is to cut it off. Sorry, that's how it goes. BUT that said....there is plenty that you can do to help it, and while it may not be a permanent thing and you will have to repeat treatments, it can help you to get to a point where you don't have to be so drastic as to cut. I'm a big proponent of trying everything possible FIRST, then cutting as little as possible to get you to a point where those other treatments will do their jobs. You may be amazed at what a 1/4 to 1/2" trim will do for damage.

So first of all....how to tell how damaged your hair is. In the salon, I use my powers of observation first and foremost. Combing through the hair, either with a comb or my fingers, is the BEST thing to help me tell if the client has any damage. Sometimes it is negligible; sometimes as I comb through I get little tiny hairs breaking off in my fingers or comb, flying through the air....THAT'S the worst. Feel the hair....does the ends and through the length a bit feel dry to you? Does it crackle as you comb or tangle to itself or the comb? Observing is the best tool for this.

Btw, sometimes dry ends and tangling are not caused by chemical damage....anything we do to our hair from updos, combing/brushing, everything causes SOME damage. The idea is to minimize it as best as possible. Some people have resiliant hair that doesn't hardly damage, even under bleaching, while others have hair that just damages at the drop of a hat. Literally. LOL...

As for testing for damage and the strength of hair, even in the salon there is no magic test. Observation first and foremost. The tests for porosity and moisture here on site (cup of water, dropping it in, does it sink or float and testing for stretch as well) are what I learned in hairschool....those tests will, believe it or not, tell you the most. Very occasionally if someone wants a chemical done at my salon but I don't think their hair will stand up beneath it I will do a strand test there by taking a very little bit of hair cut from the most damaged place (that's also in a hard to see area) and testing it using EXACTLY what I plan to use on it for EXACTLY the time that I would need. I used to do this more often in the other salon I worked in....we don't do perms in my salon now. Normally after only a fraction of the time the hair would melt and pull apart in my fingers. When someone sees this and realizes that's what their hair would do on their head....they usually change their minds. So this is what you are looking for in a strand test. SOME give to the hair is optimal and wanted, but if it pulls apart with very little pressure....that's damage, and irreversible.

As for correction, protein treatments would be needed. ALWAYS follow protein treatments with moisture only. This prevents crunchy ends from the protein. Protein needs to be done 2-3 times a week at most (I usually recommend starting with 2 times unless the hair is VERY damaged) and eventually cutting back to once or as needed.

HTH....

Thank you so much. This post of yours to me, is invaluable.

I have this saved as a bookmark.

"1. Hair health check

To test whether your hair is damaged, drop a strand into a cup of water and tap the cup to break the water's surface tension. If the hair sinks, it's damaged – 'injured' hair is usually dry and porous. Revitalise it with a conditioner. If it floats, carry on with your normal hair regime."
http://www.unilever.com/brands/hygieneandwelbeing/beautyandstyle/articles/sleekerstyle.aspx

squiggyflop
February 15th, 2009, 08:33 AM
Thank you so much. This post of yours to me, is invaluable.

I have this saved as a bookmark.

"1. Hair health check

To test whether your hair is damaged, drop a strand into a cup of water and tap the cup to break the water's surface tension. If the hair sinks, it's damaged – 'injured' hair is usually dry and porous. Revitalise it with a conditioner. If it floats, carry on with your normal hair regime."
http://www.unilever.com/brands/hygieneandwelbeing/beautyandstyle/articles/sleekerstyle.aspx
um my hair floats.. i did the test with hair samples from all over my head and it still floats..

there goes the porous theory

speaking of hair floating.. boy is it annoying how it floats in the bath.. it gets EVERYWHERE..

ktani
February 15th, 2009, 08:38 AM
um my hair floats.. i did the test with hair samples from all over my head and it still floats..

there goes the porous theory

speaking of hair floating.. boy is it annoying how it floats in the bath.. it gets EVERYWHERE..

That one was not mine but it was worth checking out, IMO. I still cannot figure out why you hair holds onto coatings so fiercely.

Heidi_234
February 15th, 2009, 02:35 PM
um my hair floats.. i did the test with hair samples from all over my head and it still floats..

there goes the porous theory

speaking of hair floating.. boy is it annoying how it floats in the bath.. it gets EVERYWHERE..
squiggyflop,did you try to sink them? Mine floated too at the beginning, but when I 'wet' them they sunk. I believe that when given enough time they would have sunk on their own, or maybe I ruined the experiment. Ideas?

rymorg2
February 15th, 2009, 06:04 PM
Thank you so much. This post of yours to me, is invaluable.

I have this saved as a bookmark.

"1. Hair health check

To test whether your hair is damaged, drop a strand into a cup of water and tap the cup to break the water's surface tension. If the hair sinks, it's damaged – 'injured' hair is usually dry and porous. Revitalise it with a conditioner. If it floats, carry on with your normal hair regime."
http://www.unilever.com/brands/hygieneandwelbeing/beautyandstyle/articles/sleekerstyle.aspx

YW ktani.....my pleasure.

rymorg2
February 15th, 2009, 06:06 PM
um my hair floats.. i did the test with hair samples from all over my head and it still floats..

there goes the porous theory

speaking of hair floating.. boy is it annoying how it floats in the bath.. it gets EVERYWHERE..

I agree with Heidi....try wetting them more. Make sure they at least go into the top 1/2 inch of water or so. Allow a bit of time for them to soak up the moisture, and then disturb the top of the water.

As for coatings, some people just get more buildup and hold onto coatings more. Believe me I know....I certainly do. But then again, my hair IS porous.

ktani
February 15th, 2009, 06:10 PM
I agree with Heidi....try wetting them more. Make sure they at least go into the top 1/2 inch of water or so. Allow a bit of time for them to soak up the moisture, and then disturb the top of the water.

As for coatings, some people just get more buildup and hold onto coatings more. Believe me I know....I certainly do. But then again, my hair IS porous.

Great added information on both issues, thank you again!

ljkforu
February 15th, 2009, 08:52 PM
I took a few damaged pieces that broke off and they float. Then again I have already done 2 full hennas with Amonimethicone gloss.

squiggyflop
February 15th, 2009, 09:04 PM
well i tried again.. i put the hairs in the water.. and i got them good and wet i poked them down into the water and made sure they were totally submerged.. i came back an hour later (i got distracted by tv) and all the hairs were floating.. i poked them down again and came back 20 minutes later and they were yet again floating.. why does hair float? why dont toenails float when they are made of the same stuff? (yes i was curious enough to put some toenails in the water too)
and how come they didnt sink after all that time.. i would think that after all that time they would have absorbed water and sank.. hmm..

ktani
February 15th, 2009, 09:06 PM
I took a few damaged pieces that broke off and they float. Then again I have already done 2 full hennas with Amonimethicone gloss.

Henna contains resin that coats the hair and gradually washes out, as well a lawsone binding to the keratin and silicone "seals" and coats the hair, so porosity and strength would not be too much of a problem IMO, for you.

ktani
February 16th, 2009, 06:50 AM
well i tried again.. i put the hairs in the water.. and i got them good and wet i poked them down into the water and made sure they were totally submerged.. i came back an hour later (i got distracted by tv) and all the hairs were floating.. i poked them down again and came back 20 minutes later and they were yet again floating.. why does hair float? why dont toenails float when they are made of the same stuff? (yes i was curious enough to put some toenails in the water too)
and how come they didnt sink after all that time.. i would think that after all that time they would have absorbed water and sank.. hmm..

You can check this out too for a more in depth explanation but I like the way the quesion was answered here, as to why things float. The hair did not absorb enough water to change its density, indicating, that it that it was not porous enough to do so. If a ship takes on enough water to change its density, for example, it will sink. The density of toenails, which is greater than the density of the water, make them sink in it.
http://www.pa.msu.edu/sci_theatre/ask_st/031192.html

squiggyflop
February 16th, 2009, 11:01 PM
You can check this out too for a more in depth explanation but I like the way the quesion was answered here, as to why things float. The hair did not absorb enough water to change its density, indicating, that it that it was not porous enough to do so. If a ship takes on enough water to change its density, for example, it will sink. The density of toenails, which is greater than the density of the water, make them sink in it.
http://www.pa.msu.edu/sci_theatre/ask_st/031192.html
oh wow why didnt i think of that.. i knew that if something was less dense it would float and i knew that the hairs floated why didnt i put it together in my brain.. duh *smacks head*

ktani
February 17th, 2009, 12:03 AM
oh wow why didnt i think of that.. i knew that if something was less dense it would float and i knew that the hairs floated why didnt i put it together in my brain.. duh *smacks head*

No worries. I did not think about it like that either.

ljkforu
February 17th, 2009, 12:42 AM
3rd embarrassment phoning in on the toenail thing :D

ktani
February 17th, 2009, 12:55 AM
3rd embarrassment phoning in on the toenail thing :D

I am not embarassed and you guys should not be either, IMO. Sometimes the focus is on one thing and one misses another. It happens.

ktani
February 17th, 2009, 07:00 PM
From the peroxide thread.

Lightening pigment and hair damage (This is an updated version of a previous post, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=267510&postcount=42).

They are 2 different things, to me, as reported in Honey. Honey has been reported to lighten hair without reported hair damage, both on these boards and in all 5 Honey threads. The research I posted in the current Honey thread and in this thread, supports the no damage results from honey lightening.

The protective constituents in honey and honey lightening recipe ingredients, prevent oxygen free radicals from being formed, by chelating free iron, that starts the reaction that causes them, when peroxide reacts with other elements. These free radicals cause cell and hair damage.

These natural protective constituents are what reseach has shown to be effective against conventional peroxide damage, as pre treatments for cells, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455427&postcount=323, and their chemical equivalents have been shown to be effective in protecting hair from damage, as pre treatments and when they are formulated into peroxide/bleaching products, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=238824&postcount=11.

Serious damage from conventional peroxide used at high volumes over time, or lower volumes for excessive time, that has required the hair to be cut, has been reported as; weak, thin, brittle, gummy, split hair, none of which as been reported as the result of honey lightening, no matter how long or often it has been done.

The mechanism(s) involved in lightening pigment by hydrogen peroxide are therefore separate. Honey lightening has been reported to be effective to lighten hair and there is no indication that formulating chemical chelants into conventional hair bleaching products, impedes product effectiveness, from the patent application quoted, or from the use of a coconut oil pre treatment, from the reports on results here.

When coconut oil has been used as a pre treatment, with conventional hair colour or peroxide/bleach applied over it, used carefully, results have been positive. The hair has been reported to be in better condition when the pre treatment has been used than without it, (compared to prior use of conventional colour, in several cases), and no hair damage has been reported, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=430055&postcount=248.

The use of coconut and argan oils to help protect hair against the free radical damage caused by conventional peroxide/bleach chemicals, is going to be limited by the abuse of these chemicals. Caution is advised about the amount of these chemicals (which includes strength or volume, when it comes to peroxide) and the timing used, as I have repeatedly said before, here, in Honey, and elsewhere (and others have also said, in conventional chemical, hair colour lightening threads) and it is impicit in the title of this thread, "Possible way to protect hair from conventional peroxide damage".

Henna can be very difficult to lighten under certain circumstances, and with conventional peroxide/bleach, it can take time, although reportedly, less time time than honey lightening, depending on how light the goal.


ETA: The difference in the relationship between pigment and keratin in hair.

"Initially, hair is white. It gets its natural color from .... pigment called melanin.
.... hair is being formed, melanocytes inject pigment (melanin) into cells containing keratin. Keratin is the protein that makes up our hair, skin, and nails. .... With age comes a reduction of melanin. The hair turns gray and eventually white."
http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/grayhair.html

and with the other article, I posted earlier, that describes the natural colour of the keratin, which is not caused by the melanin. Naturally white hair is not "truly white", with keratin in hair being pale yellow.

" .... yellow color is the natural color of keratin .... structural protein in hair."
http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthi.../aa101203a.htm

Also, explained here
"Strongly bleached hair looks yellowish, because keratin itself is naturally pale yellow. This natural color is the reason why an elderly person's white hair looks slightly yellow at the roots ..... also explains why repeatedly bleached hair looks the color of nicotine-stained skin. It needs to be tinted as well as bleached if it is to be turned white or a 'platinum' blond."
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/coloring-hair.html

ktani
February 19th, 2009, 08:57 AM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
February 19th, 2009, 06:28 PM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, as well as in the Honey threads, past and current (this one), to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
<A href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm" target=_blank>http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ljkforu
February 20th, 2009, 02:16 AM
Oxiclean and hair --

They are not suited for some finer grades of silk or wool

I dipped six inches of my hair into Oxiclean and am going to have to have 4 of the cut off. While it did very effectively remove some old hair dye it to very healthy hair and caused it to fray, split and break dramatically. Further it made the hair feel like it was melting in my hand.

[I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS METHOD]

ktani
February 20th, 2009, 04:25 AM
Oxiclean and hair --

They are not suited for some finer grades of silk or wool

I dipped six inches of my hair into Oxiclean and am going to have to have 4 of the cut off. While it did very effectively remove some old hair dye it to very healthy hair and caused it to fray, split and break dramatically. Further it made the hair feel like it was melting in my hand.

[I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS METHOD]

Thank you for the warning.

I am so sorry about the hair damage. Not a good idea is right. I wish you speedy regrowth after the trim.

I cannot find a current MSDS for the product or a complete ingredient list, but I did go over their product "faq". The products have recently been reformulated, http://www.oxiclean.com/faq.asp.

ktani
February 20th, 2009, 05:50 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
February 21st, 2009, 06:52 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
February 22nd, 2009, 06:30 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
February 22nd, 2009, 01:47 PM
Information on swimming and hair in the peroxide thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=472884&postcount=505

ktani
February 22nd, 2009, 05:36 PM
Typical club soda ingredients.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=474031&postcount=507

ktani
February 22nd, 2009, 06:25 PM
I just added this to the swimming and hair post.

This was not mentioned anywhere online but it is logical to me that if club soda removes chorine from hair, rubbing some on the skin after swimming, should remove the chorine smell that showering alone, may not.

ktani
February 23rd, 2009, 02:13 PM
For vegans who are opposed to using honey, or there is another reason, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide). The honey lightening boosters do not indivdually have a higher peroxide level than most honeys can have.

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).

ktani
February 23rd, 2009, 07:39 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
February 24th, 2009, 10:48 AM
More uses for club soda.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=476494&postcount=528

ktani
February 24th, 2009, 05:42 PM
This is about marketing, skin absorption/sensitivities.

My mom is 87. She gets confused. Thinking that her stylist had spilled a scalp/hair product on her face (which may or may not have happened), she started using a "solution" she has that she thought would be moisturizing, applying it and leaving it on, just under her eye and on her cheek. Her skin there became red and swollen. The nurse at the retirement home where my mom lives, is monitoring the situation, did not apply anything to the area, recommended that my mom see her doctor and that will be done. The swelling had gone down some, between yesterday and today.

However, when I recently saw my mom 2 days after she had had her hair done, there was no sign of any problem.

Asking questions, like I do here, my mom told me what she was doing for the "problem" recently, (I talk to her just about every day) and she had not mentioned a problem, until today. She is in no pain.

Most wash-off products are not meant to be left on the skin. They contain ingredients at percentages not used in leave-in/on products.

The product? Dove Moisturizing Body Wash for Sensitive Skin. I will update now that I have advised my mom to rinse it off and not use it again on her face. Doctors cannot necessarily make these connections if they do not know all details, so if I am right, make sure if one sees a doctor, that details are given not only about the possible cause but also about what if anything one uses to deal with a problem, when the cause is not obvious.

From makeupalley.com This is from rinsing it off.

"The new ingredients in it are so "sealing" that (this is going to sound crazy), but I find I sweat more when I used it and also, my hands seem somewhat swollen, and really red. It was so great before and now it's just chemical junk."
http://www.makeupalley.com/product/showreview.asp/page=2/pagesize=10/ItemID=9236/SortBy=/AgeRange=/SkinToneType=/ID=/

ktani
February 25th, 2009, 06:51 AM
Update

I called my mom this morning. The swelling has gone down but the redness is still there. I had her use some Dove bar soap to wash the area and rinse to remove any chemicals still there. I should have had her do that last night. The skin on her cheek is hard and dry. That, I have no doubt is from applying the body wash and leaving it on her skin and the surfactants dried it out. I would have suggested that she apply a real moisturizing lotion there, but right now IMO, the area should be left alone, to let the skin recover on its own, with nothing else to possibly irritate it.

She is still in no pain and the skin there is not itchy or uncomfortable. If it were me, I would use catnip tea to help it but I think that letting it heal on is own, as long as there is no discomfort for her, is best right now. She is using water only on her face at the moment. The nurse there, has not applied anything to the area either.

Whenever I have reacted to a chemical, washing it off is prefereable to just rinsing but since she had used the body wash in the shower with no reaction, except when it was left on in that one place, I did not think of that last night.

None of this replaces seeing a doctor but if I am right and this is a reaction to chemicals, there is no harm in doing something right away, to relieve that possibility in the meantime, IMO.

I will update further.

ktani
February 25th, 2009, 08:41 AM
I now return this thread to honey lightening. I apologize for the hijack but I think that what happened to my mom, if I am correct, may help others.

Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

ktani
February 25th, 2009, 10:37 AM
Update

My mom just called. The redness has subsided, since she used the Dove bar soap to wash off any residual body wash, from her face. The skin there is flaking but it is not itchy or bothering her.

I told her that the flaking is a good sign and to me it is, in that her skin is healing, IMO. She is in no discomfort at all. I am relieved.

ETA: My mom says that she is feeling better about the whole thing. The swelling and redness are still there but reduced considerably and that to me is also typical of this kind of reaction on the mend. It does not disappear as easily as it starts, from my experience. As long as she is feeling better about it and is less agitated and in no discomfort, all of that makes a huge difference to me.

ktani
February 26th, 2009, 07:07 AM
Final update on my mom.

The swelling has gone down considerably and her skin colour is less red. This is going to take its time to heal but it is healing, thankfully. At least 2 days of continuous application of a chemical sensitiser and 1.5 days of the skin finally trying to recover. At least her skin is returning to normal.

The point? Read labels carefully, make sure a doctor is aware of all details, however unimportant they may seen to be, and IMO, choose leave-in products that are labelled as such, over rinse off products.

ETA: A doctor looked at my mom today and while he cannot be 100&#37; sure, he said that it is likely, that what she has is a reaction to the body wash. He ordered a cortisone cream for her to apply to the area for 1 week. She will have the cream by tonight.

ktani
February 26th, 2009, 09:34 AM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).


".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
February 26th, 2009, 08:48 PM
I have this saved as a bookmark.

"1. Hair health check

To test whether your hair is damaged, drop a strand into a cup of water and tap the cup to break the water's surface tension. If the hair sinks, it's damaged – 'injured' hair is usually dry and porous. Revitalise it with a conditioner. If it floats, carry on with your normal hair regime."
http://www.unilever.com/brands/hygieneandwelbeing/beautyandstyle/articles/sleekerstyle.aspx

ktani
February 26th, 2009, 08:50 PM
CROSS POSTED FROM THE PEROXIDE THREAD SINCE THIS IS RELEVANT HERE TOO....

Since we've been discussing damage, let's talk about how to determine how damaged your hair is and what it would need to help correct it.

First of all, the only true "cure" (I use that term lightly LOL) is to cut it off. Sorry, that's how it goes. BUT that said....there is plenty that you can do to help it, and while it may not be a permanent thing and you will have to repeat treatments, it can help you to get to a point where you don't have to be so drastic as to cut. I'm a big proponent of trying everything possible FIRST, then cutting as little as possible to get you to a point where those other treatments will do their jobs. You may be amazed at what a 1/4 to 1/2" trim will do for damage.

So first of all....how to tell how damaged your hair is. In the salon, I use my powers of observation first and foremost. Combing through the hair, either with a comb or my fingers, is the BEST thing to help me tell if the client has any damage. Sometimes it is negligible; sometimes as I comb through I get little tiny hairs breaking off in my fingers or comb, flying through the air....THAT'S the worst. Feel the hair....does the ends and through the length a bit feel dry to you? Does it crackle as you comb or tangle to itself or the comb? Observing is the best tool for this.

Btw, sometimes dry ends and tangling are not caused by chemical damage....anything we do to our hair from updos, combing/brushing, everything causes SOME damage. The idea is to minimize it as best as possible. Some people have resiliant hair that doesn't hardly damage, even under bleaching, while others have hair that just damages at the drop of a hat. Literally. LOL...

As for testing for damage and the strength of hair, even in the salon there is no magic test. Observation first and foremost. The tests for porosity and moisture here on site (cup of water, dropping it in, does it sink or float and testing for stretch as well) are what I learned in hairschool....those tests will, believe it or not, tell you the most. Very occasionally if someone wants a chemical done at my salon but I don't think their hair will stand up beneath it I will do a strand test there by taking a very little bit of hair cut from the most damaged place (that's also in a hard to see area) and testing it using EXACTLY what I plan to use on it for EXACTLY the time that I would need. I used to do this more often in the other salon I worked in....we don't do perms in my salon now. Normally after only a fraction of the time the hair would melt and pull apart in my fingers. When someone sees this and realizes that's what their hair would do on their head....they usually change their minds. So this is what you are looking for in a strand test. SOME give to the hair is optimal and wanted, but if it pulls apart with very little pressure....that's damage, and irreversible.

As for correction, protein treatments would be needed. ALWAYS follow protein treatments with moisture only. This prevents crunchy ends from the protein. Protein needs to be done 2-3 times a week at most (I usually recommend starting with 2 times unless the hair is VERY damaged) and eventually cutting back to once or as needed.

HTH....

An encore of this post.

ktani
February 27th, 2009, 01:15 PM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
February 28th, 2009, 02:58 PM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded). Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

Xena
March 1st, 2009, 08:18 AM
Hello!

I tried the honey lightening method too. But I cant see any difference for now.. I think I need more treatments to see any results or I need a different kind of honey with a higher peroxide value..(I have no idea how much peroxid is in my brand)

Anyways.. is there any information about honey thats works from Austria/Germany? Would be great :)

I contacted a Jarrah Honey distributor. If the shipping to Europe isnt too expensive I'm gonna buy that one! According to this forum it is the highest peroxide value available..

ktani
March 1st, 2009, 09:02 AM
Hello!

I tried the honey lightening method too. But I cant see any difference for now.. I think I need more treatments to see any results or I need a different kind of honey with a higher peroxide value..(I have no idea how much peroxid is in my brand)

Anyways.. is there any information about honey thats works from Austria/Germany? Would be great :)

I contacted a Jarrah Honey distributor. If the shipping to Europe isnt too expensive I'm gonna buy that one! According to this forum it is the highest peroxide value available..

The Successful Honeys list does not list a honey for Austria/Germany, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin.

Jarrah honey has had great reviews here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?p=457007#post457007.

Xena
March 1st, 2009, 04:05 PM
Thx Ktani! I think I really need that Jarrah Honey! Or that polish wildflower honey one user did take.. The result was really amazing!

ktani
March 1st, 2009, 08:39 PM
Thx Ktani! I think I really need that Jarrah Honey! Or that polish wildflower honey one user did take.. The result was really amazing!

You are most welcome! Good luck and please update.

ktani
March 2nd, 2009, 06:08 PM
Jarrah honey is known to have a very high peroxide value.

“WA scientists claim jarrah honey benefit
Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average .... But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf

see "Comparing Different Types of Honey" - date 2008
" .... Jarrah honey .... contains higher amounts of glucose oxidase .... "
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

Glucose oxidase is the enzyme in honey that generates hydrogen peroxide.

Jarrah honey suppliers I found and contacted - prices and shipping costs vary as will stock amounts. There are no doubt more suppliers out there - this to start you off. As more are reported, I will add them to this list.

International shipping will be noted with an asterisk *.

*1. Their price list and they report Jarrah honey in stock. They do ship internationally.
Prices
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html)
Contact page
http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html)

*2. Yes to Jarrah honey in stock and they ship internationally. This one seems to be fast on replies to inquiries.
Contact page
http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm)
Order page with prices
http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm)

ktani
March 3rd, 2009, 10:02 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
March 4th, 2009, 07:11 AM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
March 5th, 2009, 05:53 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
March 5th, 2009, 06:14 AM
GlassEyes honey lightening on naturally black hair with the old recipe and dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241566&postcount=10

GlassEyes recipe and method - 4 or 5 days a week for a month
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241626&postcount=12

GlassEyes on why the old recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241667&postcount=15

Honey lightening has progressed considerably since then.

I think his results would have been much faster and better with the new dilution, distilled water and new recipes but his method was perfect, IMO.

I added the honey the used to the Successful Honeys List here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
March 5th, 2009, 06:28 AM
Going back over some research in the original Honey thread and discussing it with a friend, certain points of interest were raised.

In a study done on the hydrogen peroxide generated by a range of 8 honeys on dilution, more peroxide was produced at a 30 - 40 % concentration than at other honey to water concentrations (the full study is not currently online).

However, the optimal pH of a honey water solution to produce hydrogen peroxide is 6. In the study, the solutions at various dilutions, were all chemically buffered, and then adjusted with sodium hydroxide to pH 6, as required, before the testing began.

In the Honey threads, when conditioner was used at 2 parts to 1 with honey, lightening was reported but it was very gradual in most cases. All conditioners are acidic, because as well as conditioning hair, they are designed to close the cuticle and keep hair smooth. Mixing conditioner with honey to lighten hair, can be problematic in 3 ways; ingredients that interfere with lightening, water content depending on the conditioner, and pH.

Tap water has various pH levels and a varying mineral content. Minerals can negatively affect hydrogen peroxide levels. Distilled water has a pH of 7 or neutral and no minerals.



The pH of honey can vary between 3.2 and 6.1, depending on the source of information (I think that the 2nd source's information below, is the more typical range. Canadian honeys tested for a science project, http://www.saskatchewanbeekeepers.ca/users/folder.asp@FolderID=5136.htm), averaged out to pH 6. Unless you test a honey, you do not know what pH it is on dilution, and at what dilution, with liquids. Many honeys on the market are blends of honey from all over the world, even single source (type) honeys, like clover.

Originally Posted by Marlowe in another thread
"According to the bottle Burleson's honey is U.S. Grade A Fancy clover, sourced from the U.S.A., Argentina, Canada, Brazil, Vietnam, Mexico, and India."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=275298&postcount=10

1. “average pH of honey is 3.9 …. typical range of 3.4 to 6.1”
http://www.honey.com/foodindustry/resourcedb/pdfs/ph-acidsinhoney.pdf

2. "Honey .... characteristically quite acidic pH .... between 3.2 and 4.5”
http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/honey_intro.shtml#Acidity



I think that the new dilution with distilled water, works so well for so many people, because the pH of the honey water solution is at a level that allows more peroxide to be produced than previous dilutions, with conditioner and tap water, aside from other factors.

I looked into pH buffers. The one in the study was used at a very precise, very low concentration, so was the sodium hydroxide. Different pH buffers have different applications (they react chemically in different ways) so self buffering a honey lightening recipe (by adding a pH buffer) is not recommended, and the same applies to using sodium hydroxide, IMO. I think that buffering and adjusting a honey water solution to pH 6, would be very difficult to do, without the proper measuring and safety equipment, and precautions. Both the buffer and the sodium hydroxide used in the study, were specific for the purpose intended, and honey.

How the information from the study translates to honey lightening is simple, IMO. You can use the new dilution. It has been reported to be a great success so far, or you can test the pH of the honey you buy on dilution, and if it is pH 6, which is possible, try a dilution with less distilled water than the new dilution.

ktani
March 6th, 2009, 10:22 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
March 6th, 2009, 10:24 PM
Honey lightening on dark, dyed hair

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

gallows gallery - dyed black hair over henna on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution and Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

ljkforu - on previously black dyed ends, hennaed hair, with tap water, ground cinnamon and ground cardamom, and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=455932&postcount=3335

ljkforu - more information on her honey lightening recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=433208&postcount=3270

ljkforu - feedback from those around her, in real life
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=437566&postcount=3282

ktani
March 7th, 2009, 01:44 PM
Surprising information, to me anyway, on jojoba oil.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=493048&postcount=550

Spike
March 7th, 2009, 07:37 PM
Just tried honey lightening, and really like the results!

Used the 1 part honey to 6 parts water, 1 T EVOO, 1 T cinnamon. Wrapped head with palstic wrap, took nice long hot bath. (ahhhhhhhh . . .) Washed out with Dairy Whip, conditioned with White Rain.

Grey hair is platinum (yay, I <3 my greys when they sparkle) the dark hair is redder (yay, I like my natural shade a touch redder than Nature gave me) and all of it is shiny, shiny, shiny. Fabooo!

Planning a slight shift to the routine to incorporate honey lightening--oil/wash once a week, SMT/wash once a week, honey lighten/wash once a week.

ktani
March 7th, 2009, 07:47 PM
Just tried honey lightening, and really like the results!

Used the 1 part honey to 6 parts water, 1 T EVOO, 1 T cinnamon. Wrapped head with palstic wrap, took nice long hot bath. (ahhhhhhhh . . .) Washed out with Dairy Whip, conditioned with White Rain.

Grey hair is platinum (yay, I <3 my greys when they sparkle) the dark hair is redder (yay, I like my natural shade a touch redder than Nature gave me) and all of it is shiny, shiny, shiny. Fabooo!

Planning a slight shift to the routine to incorporate honey lightening--oil/wash once a week, SMT/wash once a week, honey lighten/wash once a week.

Thank you so much for posting your recipe and results.

I am so glad that you are so pleased with the colour and conditioning results you got. It sounds as if your tap water is just fine, unless you used distilled water. In any case, your recipe and honey worked for you. Great!

ktani
March 8th, 2009, 07:42 AM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

ktani
March 8th, 2009, 09:24 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
March 9th, 2009, 10:29 AM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, as well as in the Honey threads, past and current (this one), to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
<A href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm" target=_blank>http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ktani
March 9th, 2009, 10:39 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, with distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

ktani
March 10th, 2009, 01:51 PM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
March 11th, 2009, 08:53 AM
I completed this post in the wee hours of this morning. Almond oil, like jojoba oil, was a huge surprise to me, in terms of what is really going on with it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=498290&postcount=609

ktani
March 11th, 2009, 10:06 AM
For pet owners and humans in general.

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:6on4HrZi0wkJ:www.alpacasvicwest.com .au/download/Poison%2520plants.doc+PRUNUS+PERSICA+(PEACH)+KERNE L+OIL+cyanide&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=23

ktani
March 11th, 2009, 07:48 PM
As the cold and flu season approaches, here is a very short update on honey used to help coughs, including the important warning not to give honey to children under 1 year of age.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/honey/AN01799

And here is a 24 hour cold chaser remedy. It does not contain honey but it is all natural. I have not tried it yet myself (no colds), but I did recommend it to someone who reported back that it did help.

Equal parts cinnamon, sage and bay leaf. Use 1 tsp of the mix to 1 cup boiled water. Drink one cup of the remedy every hour. It is supposed to get rid of a cold in 24 hours.

Large quantities of cassia cinnamon and sage are not recommended for long term use, but this remedy is "short and sweet" in terms of duration. http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/8500



The following information was posted earlier in this thread.

Cassia cinnamon and coumarins

"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm

"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

"Frequently asked questions about coumarin in cinnamon and other foods"
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf

According to the author, in Germany, coumarin in any type of food is limited to 2 parts per million. See "Main constituents"
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_cas.html



I have posted this information elsewhere on the boards.

Sage safety
".... can be toxic when used in excess or when taken for extended periods ...."
http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Salvia+officinalis

"Toxic in excess or over long periods. Contraindicated during pregnancy ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sage

ljkforu
March 12th, 2009, 01:05 AM
Since I keep having a hard time remembering -- I'm going to post a stupid.

Papery thin Cinnamon = Good one
Hard Bark Cinnamon =Bad, coumarin one

Ktani sorry to be so simplistic but when you get to the store it is the main thing you need to know.

I've switched to the papery cinnamon completely and I feel that the flavor is superior. I am a heavy cinnamon user as gram marsala is my primary spice for cooking. It is so much easier to use and it isn't a sacrifice.

ktani
March 12th, 2009, 07:23 AM
Since I keep having a hard time remembering -- I'm going to post a stupid.

Papery thin Cinnamon = Good one
Hard Bark Cinnamon =Bad, coumarin one

Ktani sorry to be so simplistic but when you get to the store it is the main thing you need to know.

There is no stupid about this, to me. It can be confusing. This is the best link, to not only tell you about the differences between true and cassia cinnamon but to show you, as well.

http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm (http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm)

ktani
March 12th, 2009, 09:02 PM
I think that honey lightening recipes with ground (powdered) cinnamon are safe to use but I would alternate them with other recipes, not to get too much coumarin at one time, or too often (unless Ceylon cinnamon is available http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm). The recommended maximum is 2 tablespoons ground cinnamon per treatment. I suggest alternating using just honey and distilled water or honey and cardamom and distilled water (coconut oil and evoo are optional).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom can be skin sensitizers. Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon and has a higher peroxide value. Patch test before using either spice.

Cardamom
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/CardamomSeed.htm

It really depends on the frequency of one's honey lightening routine and preferred recipe.

Even though I have posted about the ground cassia cinnamon, coumarin connection before, it is always good IMO, to review research again.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380

Overuse of ground cassia cinnamon is not recommended.

ljkforu
March 13th, 2009, 02:34 AM
I used a good Tablespoon of freshly ground cardamom inner seeds in my latest henna/Manic Panic Vampire Red/Conditioner gloss. It added a loverly scent and certainly didn't impede the color from taking. I'm not going to say it positively did anything other than add fragrance, but what a nice fragrance.

Sorry for the slight hijacking -- conditioner washing is really good at getting herbs out of your hair (coneless is fine).

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 08:05 AM
I used a good Tablespoon of freshly ground cardamom inner seeds in my latest henna/Manic Panic Vampire Red/Conditioner gloss. It added a loverly scent and certainly didn't impede the color from taking. I'm not going to say it positively did anything other than add fragrance, but what a nice fragrance.

Sorry for the slight hijacking -- conditioner washing is really good at getting herbs out of your hair (coneless is fine).

No worries. I am glad it was a pleasant experience for you.

ktani
March 13th, 2009, 07:42 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
March 14th, 2009, 11:59 AM
I also think that regular liquid/solid coconut oil is better for honey lightening than fractionated coconut oil, for the same reason, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=502971&postcount=628 .

ktani
March 14th, 2009, 10:21 PM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with strong oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and can deplete or negatively interact, with the peroxide levels of honey lightening recipes, IMO.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ljkforu
March 14th, 2009, 11:36 PM
Just an FYI -- it is incredibly easy to use the right kind of Cinnamon ground up in a coffee grinder. I've switched over completely. If you want it really fine add sugar (the crystals are sharp) to help cut up the Cinnamon, for Cinnamon toast and such. :rant: I have a really sensitive palette and love to cook gourmet food. The safe cinnamon is NOT inferior to the hard sticks.

Salt crystals are great to grind savory herbs like saffron, dry sage, etc...

ktani
March 14th, 2009, 11:47 PM
Just an FYI -- it is incredibly easy to use the right kind of Cinnamon ground up in a coffee grinder. I've switched over completely. If you want it really fine add sugar (the crystals are sharp) to help cut up the Cinnamon, for Cinnamon toast and such. :rant: I have a really sensitive palette and love to cook gourmet food. The safe cinnamon is NOT inferior to the hard sticks.

Salt crystals are great to grind savory herbs like saffron, dry sage, etc...

I am pretty sure that the cinnamon I grew up eating was true cinnamon. It was finer and lighter in colour (powdered), with a more delicate flavour. I am glad to hear that you found it. I do not think that true cinnamon is/was considered inferior to cassia cinnamon. Cassia cinnamon is just cheaper.

ljkforu
March 14th, 2009, 11:50 PM
I am pretty sure that the cinnamon I grew up eating was true cinnamon. It was finer and lighter in colour (powdered), with a more delicate flavour. I am glad to hear that you found it. I do not think that true cinnamon is/was considered inferior to cassia cinnamon. Cassia cinnamon is just cheaper.
Mexican American's prefer true cinnamon so you can usually find whole sticks in that section near the chilis, oregano, etc...

I have some gourmet cook books that slammed it, but I disagree.

ktani
March 14th, 2009, 11:55 PM
Mexican American's prefer true cinnamon so you can usually find whole sticks in that section near the chilis, oregano, etc...

I have some gourmet cook books that slammed it, but I disagree.

Good to know, thank you. Gourmet cooks may have deals with suppliers, lol. The courmarin content of cassia cinnamon makes true cinnamon well worth the switch, IMO. http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm

ktani
March 15th, 2009, 01:44 PM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).


".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
March 16th, 2009, 09:29 AM
Allergic contact reponse to pure henna, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=505587&postcount=642

ktani
March 17th, 2009, 07:04 AM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

ktani
March 17th, 2009, 10:22 AM
"Honeybee Colony Collapse Update - January 21, 2009
Beekeeping is a $14 billion industry nationwide. Honey production is only one facet of the industry. Many agronomic crops rely on bees (along with birds, bats, and other insects) to pollinate them. .... recent report by the National Research Council noted that in order to bear fruit, three-quarters of all flowering plants, including most food crops and some that provide fiber, drugs and fuel, rely on pollinators for fertilization."
http://ag.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/hort/byg/archive/ccdupdate2009.html

ktani
March 17th, 2009, 09:44 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
March 18th, 2009, 03:28 PM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
March 19th, 2009, 11:35 AM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
March 19th, 2009, 08:21 PM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin are present in the hair. What determines the hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
March 20th, 2009, 08:35 AM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

ktani
March 21st, 2009, 07:14 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link. (For every 1 tablespoon of honey, use 6 tablespoons of distilled water.)
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
March 21st, 2009, 03:06 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
March 21st, 2009, 10:10 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

BranwenWolf
March 21st, 2009, 11:22 PM
I'm not sure how far they distrubute but I recommend Ambrosia Honey (http://www.madhavahoney.com/ambrosia.htm), that is, if you can stop eating it long enough to mix it. :)

ktani
March 22nd, 2009, 06:43 AM
I'm not sure how far they distrubute but I recommend Ambrosia Honey (http://www.madhavahoney.com/ambrosia.htm), that is, if you can stop eating it long enough to mix it. :)

That is great. Have you used it for honey lightening with success?

ktani
March 22nd, 2009, 02:18 PM
The same principles of coatings interfering with conventional lightening, apply to honey lightening for the same reasons, and more so in this case, because the peroxide in honey lightening recipes is weaker, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=514061&postcount=687.

No hair damage has been reported from the peroxide produced by honey lightening recipes. Chelating properties are already present in honey and the honey lightening recipe ingredients. No pretreatment is necessary, before honey lightening, to help prevent hair damage.

ktani
March 22nd, 2009, 02:27 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

BranwenWolf
March 22nd, 2009, 07:00 PM
That is great. Have you used it for honey lightening with success?

Yes! I'm actually using it for honey highlights- some strips of hair here and there on my head.

The bottle it comes in is perfect for hair applications if you use the rest of the honey for whatever and save a few tablespoons and add distilled water to that.

The information on the back of the bottle says water too hot to touch harms the honey, so I gently heated some distilled water to make my mix. I tested the temp on the inside of my wrist like mixing baby formula.

I've gotten some very subtle highlights with a couple treatments, this is on top of hair dyed red that's fading. I may do a couple more treatments this week and see if I can get them to show up on a camera.

I got raw honey from a beekeeper once and Ambrosia tastes JUST like that- the most lovely taste, not heavy at all. It also doesn't leave a residue in my hair.

ktani
March 22nd, 2009, 07:36 PM
Yes! I'm actually using it for honey highlights- some strips of hair here and there on my head.

The bottle it comes in is perfect for hair applications if you use the rest of the honey for whatever and save a few tablespoons and add distilled water to that.

The information on the back of the bottle says water too hot to touch harms the honey, so I gently heated some distilled water to make my mix. I tested the temp on the inside of my wrist like mixing baby formula.

I've gotten some very subtle highlights with a couple treatments, this is on top of hair dyed red that's fading. I may do a couple more treatments this week and see if I can get them to show up on a camera.

I got raw honey from a beekeeper once and Ambrosia tastes JUST like that- the most lovely taste, not heavy at all. It also doesn't leave a residue in my hair.

The bottle is right. You shoud not be adding any heat, though. Honey lightening should be done at room tmperature only, for the best results, based on all reports and the research. No heat (except for body heat, when you cover your hair).

Please give more details as to your recipe and method to help others and post pictures if you can. I will add your honey to the Successful Honey's List.

Added, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856. Thank you very much.

ktani
March 23rd, 2009, 11:35 AM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

RustedAngel
March 23rd, 2009, 12:19 PM
I've treated my hair twice now with no noticeable lightening. I'm using the recommended 4 to 1 dilution, with 1/8th cup of honey and 3/4 cups of distilled water (I just did the math and that actually comes out 6 to 1?). The honey is Safeway generic clover brand, medium darkness, I'm considering ordering some Jarrah honey to try and see if results improve. The first time I used a half teaspoon of EVOO, and the second a full teaspoon of cinnamon. No damage has occurred, but also no lightening :(

ktani
March 23rd, 2009, 12:27 PM
I've treated my hair twice now with no noticeable lightening. I'm using the recommended 4 to 1 dilution, with 1/8th cup of honey and 3/4 cups of distilled water (I just did the math and that actually comes out 6 to 1?). The honey is Safeway generic clover brand, medium darkness, I'm considering ordering some Jarrah honey to try and see if results improve. The first time I used a half teaspoon of EVOO, and the second a full teaspoon of cinnamon. No damage has occurred, but also no lightening :(

Your recipe is right. It may be the honey or your method of application. The hair needs to be kept very wet, once the treatment is applied to the hair and until it is removed. It is not just the math, lol. Honey is heavier than water, so it is 4 to 1 by weight, 6 to 1 by tablespoons.

RustedAngel
March 23rd, 2009, 12:40 PM
OK, good to know, ratio by weight did not even cross my mind! I do get my hair very wet; I run it under the shower before applying the honey mix. I apply the honey mix as evenly as I can by pouring it over my hair in small amounts - even if it were applied uneven I should get some lightening somewhere. I keep my hair sopping for 1+ hour by wrapping it up in syran, which works pretty well at preventing drips. I'm going to look into getting an applicator bottle as well.

ktani
March 23rd, 2009, 12:47 PM
OK, good to know, ratio by weight did not even cross my mind! I do get my hair very wet; I run it under the shower before applying the honey mix. I apply the honey mix as evenly as I can by pouring it over my hair in small amounts - even if it were applied uneven I should get some lightening somewhere. I keep my hair sopping for 1+ hour by wrapping it up in syran, which works pretty well at preventing drips. I'm going to look into getting an applicator bottle as well.

The treatment can be applied to wet or dry hair but the hair needs to be kept wet with the treatment. It sounds as if you have the application right. Some people found that by the end of application, parts of the hair had dried, before the hair was covered. Watch out for that. Depending on your recipe, you can keep some of the treatment in a spray bottle, to wet areas that have dried before you use the saran wrap.

Thank you for posting an please continue to update.

ktani
March 23rd, 2009, 08:35 PM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

BranwenWolf
March 24th, 2009, 12:09 AM
For the application bottle- I saved the bottle of honey itself. The Ambrosia honey bottle has a narrow nozzle opening almost like the hair dye bottle! Madhava Agave nectar has the same bottles, too... and some other brands.

For mixing it- is there any reported affect on putting the honey/water in the bottle and shaking it? (with my thumb over the lid) That's what I did to get it to mix, then let it sit for a while to do its thing. I don't think shaking room temp distilled water and the raw honey would hurt it.

I'll put up more details on what I do with the highlights this weekend.

The only issue I had was that the ends of my hair take the highlight better than the roots, I intend to fix that by treating the roots alone some days. The honey does not irritate my scalp; some of you may recall that I had some scalp burns from a conventional highlighting kit. *shudder*
You also have to make sure, just for highlights, that you're hitting the same strand of hair every time.

The honey does come out the bottle opening but also runs down you hand, your arms, to the floor... I recommend cutting a large garbage bag open like a tarp and covering the floor with it, unless you want a sticky floor.

ktani
March 24th, 2009, 08:01 AM
For the application bottle- I saved the bottle of honey itself. The Ambrosia honey bottle has a narrow nozzle opening almost like the hair dye bottle! Madhava Agave nectar has the same bottles, too... and some other brands.

For mixing it- is there any reported affect on putting the honey/water in the bottle and shaking it? (with my thumb over the lid) That's what I did to get it to mix, then let it sit for a while to do its thing. I don't think shaking room temp distilled water and the raw honey would hurt it.

I'll put up more details on what I do with the highlights this weekend.

The only issue I had was that the ends of my hair take the highlight better than the roots, I intend to fix that by treating the roots alone some days. The honey does not irritate my scalp; some of you may recall that I had some scalp burns from a conventional highlighting kit. *shudder*
You also have to make sure, just for highlights, that you're hitting the same strand of hair every time.

The honey does come out the bottle opening but also runs down you hand, your arms, to the floor... I recommend cutting a large garbage bag open like a tarp and covering the floor with it, unless you want a sticky floor.

You can shake stir or manipulate the mix any way you like to get it into solution, no worries. Honey is both heat and light sensitive. You do not need to worry about light though, unlesss you let the mix sit in direct strong sunlight. It is the enzyme in honey that generates the peroxide that is so delicate and then the peroxide itself when produced, because it has not been chemically stabilized. Hydrogen peroxide can be negatively affected by heat, light, catalase, Vitamin C and minerals in tap, well and bottled spring waters. Distilled water is recommended both for its pH (7) and its lack of minerals. Honey produces it optimal peroxide level at pH 6 (most honeys on the market are more acidic than pH 6, and the usual range is pH 3.2 to 4.5).

I look forward to your pictures and more about your method of application for the hi-lights!

ktani
March 24th, 2009, 07:52 PM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).


".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
March 25th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded). Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
March 26th, 2009, 06:42 AM
With spring colds on the rise, here is a very short update on honey used to help coughs, including the important warning not to give honey to children under 1 year of age.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/honey/AN01799

And here is a 24 hour cold chaser remedy. It does not contain honey but it is all natural. I have not tried it yet myself (no colds), but I did recommend it to someone who reported back that it did help.

Equal parts cinnamon, sage and bay leaf. Use 1 tsp of the mix to 1 cup boiled water. Drink one cup of the remedy every hour. It is supposed to get rid of a cold in 24 hours.

Large quantities of cassia cinnamon and sage are not recommended for long term use, but this remedy is "short and sweet" in terms of duration. http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/8500



The following information was posted earlier in this thread.

Cassia cinnamon and coumarins

"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm

"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

"Frequently asked questions about coumarin in cinnamon and other foods"
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf

According to the author, in Germany, coumarin in any type of food is limited to 2 parts per million. See "Main constituents"
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_cas.html



I have posted this information elsewhere on the boards.

Sage safety
".... can be toxic when used in excess or when taken for extended periods ...."
http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Salvia+officinalis

"Toxic in excess or over long periods. Contraindicated during pregnancy ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sage

catfish
March 26th, 2009, 03:27 PM
This is a very informative thread and I am curios to try some honey lightening myself but I wonder...

If the honey mix was applied to the hair every week for say a year, would the hair continue to lighten with every application or is there a point in which the hair lightens and then further honey treatments merely maintain the color but lighten no further.:hmm:

ktani
March 26th, 2009, 03:35 PM
This is a very informative thread and I am curios to try some honey lightening myself but I wonder...

If the honey mix was applied to the hair every week for say a year, would the hair continue to lighten with every application or is there a point in which the hair lightens and then further honey treatments merely maintain the color but lighten no further.:hmm:

Thank you for your kind words.

If a honey lightening recipe is successful, the hair should continue to lighten and that has been reported to be the case with successive treatments. However, what the ceiling is on that I do not know. It depends on the individual hair colour, and what if any other colouring, has been added to it. Nothing so far, including bleach, has been reported to completely remove henna, for example (honey lightening did completely remove a henna mix, done once), although some people have removed all but a trace of it. That depends on how much henna is on the hair and for how long (some unbound freshly done henna, can be fairly easily removed by almost anything).

catfish
March 26th, 2009, 03:46 PM
Ktani- your awsome:D

I figured that it must have something to do with the individual hair and whatnot but wasn't sure. I was a lovely blond as a child (many years ago;)) and would like to try for a little change.

I will try this thank you:)

ktani
March 26th, 2009, 03:55 PM
Ktani- your awsome:D

I figured that it must have something to do with the individual hair and whatnot but wasn't sure. I was a lovely blond as a child (many years ago;)) and would like to try for a little change.

I will try this thank you:)

Thank you so much! You are very kind.

Everything you need to know to start with, is in the first post of this thread and I am online frequently, although that frequency may change in the next few weeks. No worries, I will still be checking in and replying to posts, as I always have. If you have any questions, just post and I will reply.

ktani
March 27th, 2009, 06:17 AM
I edited my signature post to make it a little easier to read and updated the dilution to include using 1 tablespon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12 etc.

ktani
March 27th, 2009, 08:10 PM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

catfish
March 28th, 2009, 03:31 AM
So I tried a honey treatment today:D

I used the correct dilution of two tablespoons of honey to 12 tablespoons of distilled water, sprayed my dry hair down until soaking, then wrapped a plastic bag around it for a total of 1 1/2 hours. I checked the hair near my roots often to make sure they were wet and even though they stayed wet the whole time I sprayed them some more anyways:p

The results:henny: nothing.:rolleyes: Not any lightening at all. My hair is very soft and shiny though:o which is good, but it is not lighter.

Payday, I am going to buy some different honey and try again, if nothing else, at least my hair is shiny;)

ktani
March 28th, 2009, 07:20 AM
So I tried a honey treatment today:D

I used the correct dilution of two tablespoons of honey to 12 tablespoons of distilled water, sprayed my dry hair down until soaking, then wrapped a plastic bag around it for a total of 1 1/2 hours. I checked the hair near my roots often to make sure they were wet and even though they stayed wet the whole time I sprayed them some more anyways:p

The results:henny: nothing.:rolleyes: Not any lightening at all. My hair is very soft and shiny though:o which is good, but it is not lighter.

Payday, I am going to buy some different honey and try again, if nothing else, at least my hair is shiny;)

Thank you for posting.

You did everything right. The honey can be a problem. Some produce little to almost no peroxide. The Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin), has 2 honeys that have been reported lately, to be very good for honey lightening, Ambrosia and fireweed honey, both under U.S. and Jarrah honey from Australia, has the highest peroxide value that I am aware of, to date. Good luck!

ShaSha
March 28th, 2009, 01:34 PM
I tried some honey with cassia this evening and now that my hair is dry it seems to be a more light and golden color. Cannot tell for sure until I see it in daylight.

ktani
March 28th, 2009, 01:45 PM
I tried some honey with cassia this evening and now that my hair is dry it seems to be a more light and golden color. Cannot tell for sure until I see it in daylight.

You can do a honey lightening treatment with added cassia, for conditioning. If you mix the cassia only with distilled water, just before you add it to the treatment, and (not use too much you want the distilled water ratio to honey to be right) it does not yield colour.

I look forward to yout update!

catfish
March 28th, 2009, 11:02 PM
Thank you for posting.

You did everything right. The honey can be a problem. Some produce little to almost no peroxide. The Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin), has 2 honeys that have been reported lately, to be very good for honey lightening, Ambrosia and fireweed honey, both under U.S. and Jarrah honey from Australia, has the highest peroxide value that I am aware of, to date. Good luck!

My pleasure:D You know how I love to experiment. I wanted to add that despite the lack of lightening I had, I did get some other results that were unexpected and wonderful...

Today my hair is very silky, soft and clean, despite that now is usually when I wash my hair with shampoo. I COed with catnip instead of using poo and my hair is super shiny and curly:D I haven't had curls like this sense I had a perm. I know that it is the honey as catnip enhances my waves but only so much.
I am so super thrilled, I may have to take a pic.:cheese: Even my hunny noticed, he walked in the kitchen and said " hey, I haven't seen those for a while, did you get a perm?"
I said nope, just honey.;)

I will be buying a different honey soon to try as I would really like to have some highlights this summer, but in case my hair just doesn't want to be lightened then I will still be using this honey treatment for clean curls.:inlove:

ktani
March 28th, 2009, 11:55 PM
My pleasure:D You know how I love to experiment. I wanted to add that despite the lack of lightening I had, I did get some other results that were unexpected and wonderful...

Today my hair is very silky, soft and clean, despite that now is usually when I wash my hair with shampoo. I COed with catnip instead of using poo and my hair is super shiny and curly:D I haven't had curls like this sense I had a perm. I know that it is the honey as catnip enhances my waves but only so much.
I am so super thrilled, I may have to take a pic.:cheese: Even my hunny noticed, he walked in the kitchen and said " hey, I haven't seen those for a while, did you get a perm?"
I said nope, just honey.;)

I will be buying a different honey soon to try as I would really like to have some highlights this summer, but in case my hair just doesn't want to be lightened then I will still be using this honey treatment for clean curls.:inlove:

I am so happy that you are so pleased with the results. I do not think that your hair will not co-operate with lightning, lol.

Ishtarthemis
March 29th, 2009, 12:17 AM
Hi, I am doing a honey treatment now, I would like to know if leftover solution can be saved and reused, and if so for how long? I made way too much for my very long hair. Also, can catfish tell me how you make catnip for curly hair, and what other curl enhancers you know of? Thanks.

Ishtarthemis
March 29th, 2009, 12:26 AM
Hi again, forgot to ask, what are the best recipes for lightening hennaed hair? Do they just lift the henna, or will they lighten my dark brown hair at the same time?

ktani
March 29th, 2009, 12:59 AM
Hi again, forgot to ask, what are the best recipes for lightening hennaed hair? Do they just lift the henna, or will they lighten my dark brown hair at the same time?

Here are some results on hennaed hair (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=290516&postcount=2339). Most of the recipes used include honey lightening boosters. See the first post of this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1) for different topics covered, and more picture results. Honey lightening can lift all your colour, not just the henna.

catfish
March 29th, 2009, 04:14 AM
Hi, I am doing a honey treatment now, I would like to know if leftover solution can be saved and reused, and if so for how long? I made way too much for my very long hair. Also, can catfish tell me how you make catnip for curly hair, and what other curl enhancers you know of? Thanks.

Well sure;) I make up the catnip tea the same way ktani does, one teaspoon of dried catnip to 300 ml of boiling water.
I let the tea steep until cool, then I wash my hair with it, basically dump the tea on my hair and scrub my scalp with it, then let the tea sit on my hair and scalp for as long as possible, an hour is best, an hour with my hair /tea soaking under a shower cap is better.

Catnip really enhances my waves, it is a fantastic conditioner and I find it gently cleansing enough that I can go weeks without shampoo if I wash often with catnip.

For curl enhancement, I was really impressed with honey actully.:D I tried it for lightening and found that the day after I tried a honey treatment, my hair was extra wavy and curly in some places:p yeah.

I also really like oils for great waves and curls, conditioner always made my hair straight and tangly, so I don't use conditioner any more, just poo, catnip, oils/butters, and food:D

ShaSha
March 29th, 2009, 06:37 AM
Reporting, that my hair is a shade lighter, even in daylight.

Yesterday I basically did a small bowl of mud with cassia and almost boiling tap water. That bowl was sitting in my bathroom for an hour or two. Then as an afterthought I added the honey, maybe one part of honey and 3 or 4 parts of cassia mud. (With my thin and fine hair it does not take a lot of gloop to cover it all :o )

That was secured in a bun, wrapped inside a plastic bag and a towel for an hour.

I was not really hoping for a lighter hair, but don't mind it. It always gets lighter in summer anyway. Might do another honey experiment in a week or so, just to see what happens. :D

ktani
March 29th, 2009, 07:33 AM
Hi, I am doing a honey treatment now, I would like to know if leftover solution can be saved and reused, and if so for how long? I made way too much for my very long hair.

I would not keep any left over honey lightening solution longer than about a day. The peroxide level can diminish. It depends on the honey

Fethenwen
March 29th, 2009, 12:44 PM
This thread is awesome! :bunny: It really inspired me to try this honey thing myself, I have hennaed my hair for quite a long time, and it is getting cooler and darker, which doesn't suit my skin color that well. I would love to have a more warm and lighter orange red color.

So yesterday I tested this on some stray hair, I did not measure anything. Just put some tap water and honey, the honey was not that dark color. I also put a few drops of extra virgin olive oil and cardamom essential oil. After about two to three hours (I almost forgot about it), I rinsed the hair pieces and noticed a difference! It was a bit brighter and lighter in color. Not anything dramatic, but still.
Does cardamom essential oil has any effect or should it be ground cardamom?
I also will try to do a stray hair test again soon, with distilled water this time and better quality darker honey.

ktani
March 29th, 2009, 12:51 PM
This thread is awesome! :bunny: It really inspired me to try this honey thing myself, I have hennaed my hair for quite a long time, and it is getting cooler and darker, which doesn't suit my skin color that well. I would love to have a more warm and lighter orange red color.

So yesterday I tested this on some stray hair, I did not measure anything. Just put some tap water and honey, the honey was not that dark color. I also put a few drops of extra virgin olive oil and cardamom essential oil. After about two to three hours (I almost forgot about it), I rinsed the hair pieces and noticed a difference! It was a bit brighter and lighter in color. Not anything dramatic, but still.
Does cardamom essential oil has any effect or should it be ground cardamom?
I also will try to do a stray hair test again soon, with distilled water this time and better quality darker honey.

Thank you!

Cardamom essental oil (http://www.libertynatural.com/msd/12.htm)would be very irritating for this purpose. Ground cardamom itself can be a sentitizer, although most people who have tried it in a recipe, have not had a problem with it. Information on cardamom, can be found here (http://books.google.com/books?id=tnH1bFGKuRoC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=cardamom+oil+peroxide+value&source=bl&ots=LVkj5z5UiS&sig=eR527QxoQsR7ycepvdCex2wcSm4&hl=en&ei=krfPSfO_PJXinQejmo3mCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result) and here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373).

Great news about your experiment! Patch test your cardamom recipes before using them on your hair and scalp. I look forward to reading more about your experiments! The cardamomm essential oil diluted with the evoo, may work well.

BranwenWolf
March 29th, 2009, 09:10 PM
Hi all!
I've returned from messing with my hair the past few evenings.
The tentative conclusion on honey for highlights is: could work, but the technique needs refinement, and preferrably another set of hands for application.
You kind of have to hunt to see the differences here.
Please note, I am a natural blonde and this experiment is on top of Clairol Natural Instincts color that's sloooowly fading. So I guess you'd call it strawberry blonde.
My camera makes my hair look a lot redder than it is.
Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/008.jpg
After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honeyhair001.jpg

Here's where you can really see it. For highlights I was only messing with the top layer of hair. I may not have got nice contrast highlights but I did get color change:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honeyhair004.jpg
(that white streak is on my mirror, not my hair)

If you look closely here, you can see some bars of lighter color towards the front of my hairline:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honeyhair006.jpg

I actually used the same batch of solution over the past three nights and did notice more contrast each night, but very hard to tell.

The issues are:
You have to apply the stuff to the same hair strands every time. Very difficult.

The honey water tends to run.

Last night I tried blockout- I coated the strands I wanted to stay dark with olive oil. I used this with success with water-based hair dyes. With the honey it was a bit more difficult, by the time I got done applying my head was one gooey, sticky mess.


I will use the rest of the solution tonight.

Before I had a dye disaster I tried honey/water highlights with about two tablespoons of bottled peroxide (the kind you use medically for cleaning wounds and such) added, and did get some nice highlights the first go with no damage. -BUT- this is a departure from exclusively herbal techniques and probably not a good idea for long-term.

ktani
March 29th, 2009, 09:53 PM
Hi all!
I've returned from messing with my hair the past few evenings.
The tentative conclusion on honey for highlights is: could work, but the technique needs refinement, and preferrably another set of hands for application.
You kind of have to hunt to see the differences here.
Please note, I am a natural blonde and this experiment is on top of Clairol Natural Instincts color that's sloooowly fading. So I guess you'd call it strawberry blonde.
My camera makes my hair look a lot redder than it is.
Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/008.jpg
After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honeyhair001.jpg

Here's where you can really see it. For highlights I was only messing with the top layer of hair. I may not have got nice contrast highlights but I did get color change:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honeyhair004.jpg
(that white streak is on my mirror, not my hair)

If you look closely here, you can see some bars of lighter color towards the front of my hairline:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honeyhair006.jpg

I actually used the same batch of solution over the past three nights and did notice more contrast each night, but very hard to tell.

The issues are:
You have to apply the stuff to the same hair strands every time. Very difficult.

The honey water tends to run.

Last night I tried blockout- I coated the strands I wanted to stay dark with olive oil. I used this with success with water-based hair dyes. With the honey it was a bit more difficult, by the time I got done applying my head was one gooey, sticky mess.


I will use the rest of the solution tonight.

Before I had a dye disaster I tried honey/water highlights with about two tablespoons of bottled peroxide (the kind you use medically for cleaning wounds and such) added, and did get some nice highlights the first go with no damage. -BUT- this is a departure from exclusively herbal techniques and probably not a good idea for long-term.

Thank you so much for posting pictures! How did you keep the honeyed strands wet for the time they were treated? Very nice colour change! Your hair looks awesome!

As for the honey water and 3&#37; or 10 volume peroxide, coat the hair you want to hi-light with coconut oil (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495), for about an hour first, then use the honey peroxide solution on top of that, to help prevent damage. The honey helped prevent damage in your first try with that, IMO, but I think that the coconut oil will help more.

But just honey and water worked well for you.

Keeping and using the same solution for days can be tricky. The peroxide level can decline over a period of time. It depends on the honey.

BranwenWolf
March 29th, 2009, 10:03 PM
Ack- sorry, forgot details.

I confess to being gloriously inept with saran wrap. I put my hair in a bun and shoved a plastic grocery bag on that, pressed the air out, and then put either a shower cap or a knit winter cap on top of that.

Aaand, details of the mixture!
This is a 24-oz bottle (weight measure, not liquid!) of ambrosia honey, obviously emptied of all honey (nom nom) except what I put in there. I'd call this 3-4 tablespoons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honey1.jpg

Water added, I have my finger at the waterline. Maybe a cup or 1.25 cups?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honey2.jpg

This was a LOT of the mixture for tailbone-length hair, so a smaller batch would be in order.
I shook it after this and let it sit 20 minutes to do its thing.

With this brand of honey the ideal end mixture came out looking like Coors, for lack of better words. Even kind of frothy like beer! But smelled much better.


ETA: I'm sorry my pictures are so huge! This second set is phone pictures!

ktani
March 29th, 2009, 10:12 PM
Ack- sorry, forgot details.

I confess to being gloriously inept with saran wrap. I put my hair in a bun and shoved a plastic grocery bag on that, pressed the air out, and then put either a shower cap or a knit winter cap on top of that.

Aaand, details of the mixture!
This is a 24-oz bottle (weight measure, not liquid!) of ambrosia honey, obviously emptied of all honey (nom nom) except what I put in there. I'd call this 3-4 tablespoons.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honey1.jpg

Water added, I have my finger at the waterline. Maybe a cup or 1.25 cups?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/Mighty_Mule/honey2.jpg

This was a LOT of the mixture for tailbone-length hair, so a smaller batch would be in order.
I shook it after this and let it sit 20 minutes to do its thing.

With this brand of honey the ideal end mixture came out looking like Coors, for lack of better words. Even kind of frothy like beer! But smelled much better.


ETA: I'm sorry my pictures are so huge! This second set is phone pictures!

No worries about the picture size. Thank you for the added details. The ideal amount of time to let the mixture sit is 1 hour (to let the honey produce peroxide).

Your dilution is pretty close to the recommended dilution. 4 tablespoons would need 1.5 cups of distilled water or 12 oz US.

A basting, pastry, blush or tint brush, may allow to to get more exact placement of the solution.

ETA: I just added your report, both posts, to the first post of this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1), under results for pictures of honey and water results, and pictures by category of hair colour, at the bottom of the post.

ktani
March 30th, 2009, 12:31 AM
2009
Catherine Zeta Jones on natural beauty tips, including honey, beer and salt (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1128664/The-beer-shampoo-strawberry-toothpaste-keeps-Catherine-Zeta-Jones-looking-youthful.html) (only the honey and beer go on her hair).

ljkforu
March 30th, 2009, 12:57 AM
BranwenWolf, your hair is beautiful. I would just keep up with the subtle honey lightenings. Don't fry your hair (Like I did).

I'm not a big fan of red hair and yours is just gorgeous on you. It is just such a lovely and complimentary color for you, IMHO.

I hope you feel that this is a compliment :D

ktani
March 30th, 2009, 06:23 AM
BranwenWolf, your hair is beautiful. I would just keep up with the subtle honey lightenings. Don't fry your hair (Like I did).

I'm not a big fan of red hair and yours is just gorgeous on you. It is just such a lovely and complimentary color for you, IMHO.

I hope you feel that this is a compliment :D

Conventional chemicals can fry hair but they do not have to. There are people here, who have used them carefully, with nothing added or done and had no problems. It depends on the hair, the process, method and products used. There are also ways to minimize damage.

That said, honey lightening can be a natural alternative to conventional hair lightening and be used in various ways. No damage to hair from honey lightening has been reported. The only problems reported have been related to honey residue and that, in all but 2 exceptional cases, has been easily resolved by shampooing the hair. In one of the cases, shampoo did help but using honey again still caused a problem. Honey residue is not a problem restricted to honey lightening. It can and has been reported to happen with the use of honey and conditioner, for conditioning only purposes.

Fethenwen
March 30th, 2009, 03:24 PM
So I was very eager to try this out today, I got my hands on some darker honey (some sort of Italian cuisine honey) and distilled water.

And now I'm sitting here with a little lighter hair :cheese:
It is quite what I expected it to be. More warm orange and a tiny bit lighter and really and extremely shiny. I think I will do one or two more treatments and take some before and after pictures, I did not have a camera here today, sorry (left it at home).

So here's what I did:

Mixed:
2 tablespoons of honey + 12 tablespoons of distilled water.
About one tablespoon of EVOO + two drops of cardamom oil.
One teaspoon ground cinnamon.

Let it sit for one hour. At the meantime I washed my hair with diluted shampoo to get traces of eventual rhassoul clay out. And massaged in some EV coconut oil.

While hair still wet I poured the honey mix into sections of hair. Wrapped a generous amount of saran wrap around my head, and had it on for about 1 hour and 30 minutes. And rinsed it out.

I am exited that this thing worked the first time around! And also glad to be able to have lighter color without the risk of going overboard.
I will try this again this week, and hopefully have some pictures also.

ktani
March 30th, 2009, 03:57 PM
So I was very eager to try this out today, I got my hands on some darker honey (some sort of Italian cuisine honey) and distilled water.

And now I'm sitting here with a little lighter hair :cheese:
It is quite what I expected it to be. More warm orange and a tiny bit lighter and really and extremely shiny. I think I will do one or two more treatments and take some before and after pictures, I did not have a camera here today, sorry (left it at home).

So here's what I did:

Mixed:
2 tablespoons of honey + 12 tablespoons of distilled water.
About one tablespoon of EVOO + two drops of cardamom oil.
One teaspoon ground cinnamon.

Let it sit for one hour. At the meantime I washed my hair with diluted shampoo to get traces of eventual rhassoul clay out. And massaged in some EV coconut oil.

While hair still wet I poured the honey mix into sections of hair. Wrapped a generous amount of saran wrap around my head, and had it on for about 1 hour and 30 minutes. And rinsed it out.

I am exited that this thing worked the first time around! And also glad to be able to have lighter color without the risk of going overboard.
I will try this again this week, and hopefully have some pictures also.

Thank you for the update! I am glad that you are so pleased with your results.

I am a little confused as to why you massaged the coconut oil into your hair before applying the treatment. You can just add some (about a tablespoon or less, especially if you are using evoo), directly into the recipe. If it is because of the peroxide thread, that is about conventional peroxide use. You can read more about the idea of a preteatment for that here, in the first post of that thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=233176&postcount=1). Honey lightening peroxide has not been reported to damage hair to date, no matter how many times honey lightening has been done, or how long (in hours), a recipe has been left on the hair.

Please continue to update. I look forward to your pictures!

ktani
March 30th, 2009, 04:17 PM
Conventional peroxide is about 1000 times stronger than any peroxide produced by a honey lightening recipe, even with the boosters of the spices and oils. That is why adding it to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

The natural protective constituents in honey and the boosters that protect the hair from damage from honey lightening peroxide are not going to be able to deal with it all at once, IMO, depending on the amount added.

Coconut oil, and coconut and argan oil, used as a pretreatment, for at least an hour before conventional peroxide is used, have been reported to help protect the hair from damage, when conventional hair colouring and lightening has been done.

No pretreatment is necessary before honey lightening.