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ktani
December 9th, 2008, 05:46 AM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH.

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html[/quote] (http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html[/quote)

ktani
December 9th, 2008, 07:28 PM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

Whimsical wind
December 12th, 2008, 12:50 AM
This may be a stupid question, but what is distilled water? Is it the same as filtred water?

ktani
December 12th, 2008, 06:07 AM
This may be a stupid question, but what is distilled water? Is it the same as filtred water?

First, and I will keep repeating this as many times as necessary, I do not believe that any question is stupid. Questioning is how we all learn things, IMO.

This is from the recommendations in my signature.
2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

This may also help.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369

Tap water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=322099&postcount=2547

pH and honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=282315&postcount=2296

ktani
December 12th, 2008, 09:47 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
December 13th, 2008, 08:29 AM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
December 14th, 2008, 08:36 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ACWN
December 14th, 2008, 01:45 PM
I just found this idea and I really want to use it before I re-henna my hair, so I get the color I want. I have honey, but I was stupid and put the honey in the fridge. Yes, I know... worse yet, I had previously heated it so that it would thin back out a little. Will I be able to use this honey for the treatment? Or should I just kick myself and buy another little bottle?

ktani
December 14th, 2008, 02:18 PM
I just found this idea and I really want to use it before I re-henna my hair, so I get the color I want. I have honey, but I was stupid and put the honey in the fridge. Yes, I know... worse yet, I had previously heated it so that it would thin back out a little. Will I be able to use this honey for the treatment? Or should I just kick myself and buy another little bottle?

First, welcome to LHC and Honey!

I do not think that putting it in fridge is serious or stupid. We all do things sometimes without thinking, at least I do, lol.

As for heating the honey, (not stupid either) it depends on how high a heat and how long that you heated it. If you just warmed it, it may not be too bad. If you microwaved it, save this jar of honey to eat and buy another for honey lightening, IMO.

Have a look at the topics here. They may be of help or just post and I will do my best to assist you.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

ACWN
December 14th, 2008, 02:27 PM
Thanks^^

Yeah, I used a microwave. Alright, thats what I was afraid of. I didnt leave it in too too long, as I didnt want the honey HOT, just warm enough for it to drizzle a little easier. But the damage might still have been done. Thats okay, I'll just grab another bottle when I get a chance to go to the store again.

I might still use the honey I have to satisfy my own curiousity. It cant hurt any, right?

ktani
December 14th, 2008, 02:33 PM
Thanks^^

Yeah, I used a microwave. Alright, thats what I was afraid of. I didnt leave it in too too long, as I didnt want the honey HOT, just warm enough for it to drizzle a little easier. But the damage might still have been done. Thats okay, I'll just grab another bottle when I get a chance to go to the store again.

I might still use the honey I have to satisfy my own curiousity. It cant hurt any, right?

If you did not leave it in the microwave too long, no, it cannot hurt to try it. The worst that will happen is that you will get very nice conditioning (unless you get residue, which can be remedied with shampoo and can happen anyway) but no lightening. Depending on how you use the honey and the honey itself, that can happen anyway too.

ACWN
December 14th, 2008, 02:52 PM
Then I'll give a test run once the honey is room temp again and see what happens.... if nothing else, and it doesnt lighten my hair.. I'll make my fiancee use it. Poor guy has insanely curly hair (with so many fly aways that if he doesnt use gel in his hair or brush it down, he looks like a crazy man, lol) and it tangles horribly. Plus his hair is prone to breaking since its so curly and it wouldnt hurt to do something that'll condition it and make it stronger.

Thanks^^

ps: If it does do anything to my hair, I'll update with before and after shots.^^

ktani
December 14th, 2008, 04:46 PM
Then I'll give a test run once the honey is room temp again and see what happens.... if nothing else, and it doesnt lighten my hair.. I'll make my fiancee use it. Poor guy has insanely curly hair (with so many fly aways that if he doesnt use gel in his hair or brush it down, he looks like a crazy man, lol) and it tangles horribly. Plus his hair is prone to breaking since its so curly and it wouldnt hurt to do something that'll condition it and make it stronger.

Thanks^^

ps: If it does do anything to my hair, I'll update with before and after shots.^^

Good luck! And you are most welcome Please update either way.

ACWN
December 15th, 2008, 12:40 PM
Updating! Hehe. Okay, so it seemed to have lightened the henna a little... which could always be my imagination. My roots are about as dark as ever. BUT!! Oh.. my GOD! Its so freaking SOFT! And the SHINE it gave it! It brought back all the highlights the henna gave me and made everything else (my roots and my bangs are bleached blonde) a beautiful shine. It even made my palms soft from washing it out.

Recipe I used was the 2 tablespoons of honey, 3/4 cup of water, and TWO tablespoons of EVOO.

I dont know if the EVOO did anything, but there it is.

So, something to consider adding to that wonderful list you have for honey is: If you just want softness and shine with out worrying about lightening it or adding color to it, get a bottle of honey and throw it in the microwave for about 10 seconds (on high) to warm it and use the lightening recipe.

I know I'm going to make my fiancee use it, hopefully it'll do his hair some good.


Oh! Question. I remember reading something about an infusion that I could put on my hair before I bleached it. Since I bleach my bangs - I've always liked the look of yellowish blonde against a fire red-orange - it'd probably be a good idea do protect my hair. But I'm a little confused by what you meant. Help?

ktani
December 15th, 2008, 03:38 PM
Updating! Hehe. Okay, so it seemed to have lightened the henna a little... which could always be my imagination. My roots are about as dark as ever. BUT!! Oh.. my GOD! Its so freaking SOFT! And the SHINE it gave it! It brought back all the highlights the henna gave me and made everything else (my roots and my bangs are bleached blonde) a beautiful shine. It even made my palms soft from washing it out.

Recipe I used was the 2 tablespoons of honey, 3/4 cup of water, and TWO tablespoons of EVOO.

I dont know if the EVOO did anything, but there it is.

So, something to consider adding to that wonderful list you have for honey is: If you just want softness and shine with out worrying about lightening it or adding color to it, get a bottle of honey and throw it in the microwave for about 10 seconds (on high) to warm it and use the lightening recipe.

I know I'm going to make my fiancee use it, hopefully it'll do his hair some good.

Oh! Question. I remember reading something about an infusion that I could put on my hair before I bleached it. Since I bleach my bangs - I've always liked the look of yellowish blonde against a fire red-orange - it'd probably be a good idea do protect my hair. But I'm a little confused by what you meant. Help?

I only recommend microwaving if you do not want the possibility of lightening, as you say. You can use a honey and conditioner recipe for that too or the SMT recipes. Neither conditioner and honey nor an SMT, has been reported to add colour to the hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299163&postcount=2379

You are confusing 2 threads, this one for lightening with honey and honey in general and this one linked here 10495, about protecting the hair from conventional colour and bleach with cocout oil as a pre treatment, not an infusion, which was the idea at the beginning of the thread. Coconut oil, is easier and has been reported to be effective. See Bianca's results, on removing her henna with bleach and then colouring in the reports post below.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

Reports on using coconut oil as a pre treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=379625&postcount=120

ACWN
December 15th, 2008, 04:08 PM
I only recommend microwaving if you do not want the possibility of lightening.
[/URL]

You are confusing 2 threads, this one for lightening with honey and honey in general and this one linked here 10495, about protecting the hair from conventional colour and bleach.
[URL]http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299163&postcount=2379)



Er... thats what I kinda said, hon. If you want the softness and shine, but not the lightening or color being added (like henna or such), throw the honey in the microwave. I just mean use the RECIPE of the lightening... the 2 tablespoons of honey to 3/4 cup of water.


And I wasnt confusing the two threads. I know the lightening thread was different then the protection thread, that second part I wrote about the protection was a totally separate thing from the lightening. I had asked because I didnt understand what I was suppose to do, now I do.

ktani
December 15th, 2008, 04:30 PM
I only recommend microwaving if you do not want the possibility of lightening, as you say.

I reread your post and clarified the first part and misunderstood you about the second.

I am glad that all is straightened out now though. It can be confusing in terms of there being a lot of information to keep track of. That is partly why I started to keep records.

The only recipe with honey that can and has been reported to add colour to hair is a cassia recipe, with orange juice, undiluted honey and evoo. It is not a lightening recipe.

It is great that 2 tablespoons of evoo worked in your recipe for conditioning and was easy to remove. Evoo can have up to twice the peroxide value of coconut or other oils.

ktani
December 15th, 2008, 05:15 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
December 16th, 2008, 07:43 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

Heidi_234
December 16th, 2008, 07:47 AM
Hey Ktani, :flower:
I've got more red tones from my last henna than before. Would honey lightening reverse it back to orange to just make it lighter red in your opinion?

ktani
December 16th, 2008, 07:52 AM
Hey Ktani, :flower:
I've got more red tones from my last henna than before. Would honey lightening reverse it back to orange to just make it lighter red in your opinion?

I cannot predict that but based on other reports, it may make it lighter red. It depends as well on how long ago you hennaed, and how much of that henna has bonded to your hair keratin. It has been reported with henna, that the fresher the henna, the more of it can be removed just with deep conditioning treatments and baby shampoo mixed with honey.

Heidi_234
December 16th, 2008, 08:00 AM
I cannot predict that but based on other reports, it may make it lighter red. It depends as well on how long ago you hennaed, and how much of that henna has bonded to your hair keratin. It has been reported with henna, that the fresher the henna, the more of it can be removed just with deep conditioning treatments and baby shampoo mixed with honey.
Well I don't want to get the henna out, on the contrary, I want to prepare for my next henna (I plan to order PP from H4H, treat my hair for x-mas :)), and either way, it seems the red color takes better on lighter start color, and my hair is pretty dark already.

ktani
December 16th, 2008, 08:03 AM
Well I don't want to get the henna out, on the contrary, I want to prepare for my next henna (I plan to order PP from H4H, treat my hair for x-mas :)), and either way, it seems the red color takes better on lighter start color, and my hair is pretty dark already.

The only henna that will be removed by deep conditioning is unbound henna. I would try honey lightening. It may help do what you want.

Heidi_234
December 16th, 2008, 08:08 AM
The only henna that will be removed by deep conditioning is unbound henna. I would try honey lightening. It may help do what you want.
Okies thanks Ktani, helpful and generous as always. :flowers:

ktani
December 16th, 2008, 08:09 AM
Okies thanks Ktani, helpful and generous as always. :flowers:

My pleasure and thank you.

ktani
December 17th, 2008, 07:59 AM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

ktani
December 17th, 2008, 06:16 PM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded).

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
December 18th, 2008, 05:45 AM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ACWN
December 18th, 2008, 03:04 PM
I just did a root application and I have quite a bit of the mix left... I was wondering if I can save it or if I should just dump it.

If I can save it, how? I have an application bottle now, should I put it in that?

ktani
December 18th, 2008, 04:16 PM
I just did a root application and I have quite a bit of the mix left... I was wondering if I can save it or if I should just dump it.

If I can save it, how? I have an application bottle now, should I put it in that?

I would not keep it more than about a day in the fridge. If you do not plan on using it immediately after that, I suggest dumping it. You can keep it in the applicator bottle or whatever you used to do your roots.

It is not that the recipe could go bad in that time, but it is unpredictable, as to how long it will take for the peroxide produced to break down. That varies with the honey.

ktani
December 19th, 2008, 08:46 PM
I think that honey lightening recipes with ground (powdered) cinnamon are safe to use but I would alternate them with other recipes, not to get too much coumarin at one time, or too often (unless Ceylon cinnamon is available http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm). The recommended maximum is 2 tablespoons ground cinnamon per treatment. I suggest alternating using just honey and distilled water or honey and cardamom and distilled water (coconut oil and evoo are optional).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom can be skin sensitizers. Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon and has a higher peroxide value. Patch test before using either spice.

Cardamom
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/CardamomSeed.htm

It really depends on the frequency of one's honey lightening routine and preferred recipe.

Even though I have posted about the ground cassia cinnamon, coumarin connection before, it is always good IMO, to review research again.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380

Overuse of ground cassia cinnamon is not recommended.

ktani
December 20th, 2008, 06:43 PM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with the unstabilized hydrogen peroxide (as opposed to the stabilized conventional kind) of a honey lightening recipe and can deplete or negatively interact with the peroxide levels.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
December 21st, 2008, 06:53 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

kittymomma
December 21st, 2008, 02:09 PM
Hi Ktani,

First, blessyoublessyou for compiling and maintaining this info! It's been really helpful so far!

I have recently gone from color-treated (Wella Koleston) red hair to henna red hair (which I LOVE) and am realizing the new hairs, because they are not color-treated, are much darker...so now I have around 5 inches of darker hair, then lighter red. I'm wondering if I can get away with honey lightening just the 5 inches, and then mixing honey in with my henna to maintain? Has anyone tried this?

Thanks or any info you have!!

ktani
December 21st, 2008, 02:38 PM
Hi Ktani,

First, blessyoublessyou for compiling and maintaining this info! It's been really helpful so far!

I have recently gone from color-treated (Wella Koleston) red hair to henna red hair (which I LOVE) and am realizing the new hairs, because they are not color-treated, are much darker...so now I have around 5 inches of darker hair, then lighter red. I'm wondering if I can get away with honey lightening just the 5 inches, and then mixing honey in with my henna to maintain? Has anyone tried this?

Thanks or any info you have!!

You are most welcome.

I do not think mixing honey with henna would work that well. You may get some lightening depending on the water you use (distilled is recommended). The dilution would be off for lightening though, as well as the pH, so do not expect much. I think mixing cassia with henna would keep the henna from going darker. That is what a few people have done in the henna threads. It is basically, reducing the amount of henna that you use.

I just thought of a way this may work, the operative word being may. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=389087&postcount=3047

Yes, you can just lighten the 5 inches you want. Just apply the honey lightening treatment to the area with a blush, pastry or basting brush, pin up the rest and keep that area wet and covered or misted.

ktani
December 21st, 2008, 03:00 PM
This is the 3rd time adding honey to a henna treatment has come up, recently.

The new dilution has been reported to work so well for a few reasons.

There are 3 key ones, for a honey lightening treatment to work as well as it can.

1. A good peroxide producing honey

2. The right water (distilled) or tap water with a pH of 7 and no minerals

3. The right dilution, basic, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of distilled water

Then there is the method. The hair must be kept very evenly wet, which is not the same as dripping, throughout the time that the treatment is on the hair, either covered, or constantly misted.

I do not know how much water is used to how much henna, but I understand that it is a thick paste. That means not too much water. Adding honey to a thick paste with water in it will dilute the honey and if it is straight distilled water (no added Vitamin C, like lemon juice in the mix), it should not have too low a pH but honey needs to be pH 6, for optimal peroxide production. Henna is about pH 4.5 and most honey is that or lower. Put it altogether and the conditions are not ideal for much in the way of lightening to happen. It may but slight, IMO, at best.

There one way this may work to prevent henna from going darker. It is an unknown, so I cannot predict results or go by reports.

Mix the honey lightening treatment first, for henna, with honey lightening boosters, like 3 of them if you can, 1 tablespoon each of ground cinnamon, ground cardamom and evoo, to 2 tablespoons honey and 6 oz of distilled water and let that sit for 2 hours (you can also use 2 tablespoons of ground cinnamon or ground cardamom). Use that mix only to dilute the henna powder, for dye release, or better yet, mix distilled water only with the henna for that first (you will have more distilled water in the mix), then add the honey lightening treatment, but you will not need the full amount. The treatment will already have produced peroxide. Once you add the honey lightening treatment to the henna, it will not produce much if any more peroxide. It may help prevent the henna from darkening.

Heidi_234
December 21st, 2008, 03:37 PM
This is the 3rd time adding honey to a henna treatment has come up, recently.

The new dilution has been reported to work so well for a few reasons.

There are 3 key ones, for a honey lightening treatment to work as well as it can.

1. A good peroxide producing honey

2. The right water (distilled) or tap water with a pH of 7 and no minerals

3. The right dilution, basic, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of distilled water

Then there is the method. The hair must be kept very evenly wet, which is not the same as dripping, throughout the time that the treatment is on the hair, either covered, or constantly misted.

I do not know how much water is used to how much henna, but I understand that it is a thick paste. That means not too much water. Adding honey to a thick paste with water in it will dilute the honey and if it is straight distilled water (no added Vitamin C, like lemon juice in the mix), it should not have too low a pH but honey needs to be pH 6, for optimal peroxide production. Henna is about pH 4.5 and most honey is that or lower. Put it altogether and the conditions are not ideal for much in the way of lightening to happen. It may but slight, IMO, at best.

There one way this may work to prevent henna from going darker. It is an unknown, so I cannot predict results or go by reports.

Mix the honey lightening treatment first, for henna, with honey lightening boosters, like 3 of them if you can, 1 tablespoon each of ground cinnamon, ground cardamom and evoo, to 2 tablespoons honey and 6 oz of distilled water and let that sit for 2 hours (you can also use 2 tablespoons of ground cinnamon or ground cardamom). Use that mix only to dilute the henna powder, for dye release, or better yet, mix distilled water only with the henna for that first (you will have more distilled water in the mix), then add the honey lightening treatment, but you will not need the full amount. The treatment will already have produced peroxide. Once you add the honey lightening treatment to the henna, it will not produce much if any more peroxide. It may help prevent the henna from darkening.
That is interesting. I thought something like this too. I wonder if this would work. I think the peroxide might even intensify (making it brighter, not darker) the color of henna.
I'm so intrigued I think I'm going to do stand tests for that, one untreated, one treat with henna as usual, and one with HLT enhanced henna (and maybe one with HLT alone to see to what degree it works in optimal conditions?).

ktani
December 21st, 2008, 03:41 PM
That is interesting. I thought something like this too. I wonder if this would work. I think the peroxide might even intensify (making it brighter, not darker) the color of henna.
I'm so intrigued I think I'm going to do stand tests for that, one untreated, one treat with henna as usual, and one with HLT enhanced henna (and maybe one with HLT alone to see to what degree it works in optimal conditions?).

In theory it may work. It is basically adding peroxide to henna. You could also do that, by pre treating the hair with coconut oil and then just adding conventional peroxide to the henna mix, and apply it over the coconut oil, to help prevent conventional peroxide hair damage.

Heidi_234
December 21st, 2008, 03:44 PM
In theory it may work. It is basically adding peroxide to henna. You could do that also, by pre treating the hair with coconut oil and then just adding conventional peroxide to the henna mix, and apply it over the coconut oil.
Yeah, but the honey lightening way is much less damaging (if at all). I wouldn't like to have conventional peroxide in my henna, and the coconut oil might prevent the henna to get to hair (I think?).

ktani
December 21st, 2008, 03:47 PM
Yeah, but the honey lightening way is much less damaging (if at all). I wouldn't like to have conventional peroxide in my henna, and the coconut oil might prevent the henna to get to hair (I think?).

Not by these reports, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=379625&postcount=120. The entire thread with reasearch, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495.

The coconut oil as a pre treatment, was not reported to interfere with dye uptake. The key is not to use too much oil.

I agree though, that there has been no reported hair damage from honey lightening at all to date, but it is because of the same factors as the coconut oil alone as a pre treatment IMO, based on the research and supported by the reports, so far.

I am not going to try to change people's mindsets on this. I have noticed that there are 2 distinct views. 1. Henna users who will not use conventional colour (usually because of bad past experiences). 2. Those who do use conventional colour and all natural products too. Whatever makes one comfortable is fine with me.

ktani
December 22nd, 2008, 08:59 AM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with the unstabilized hydrogen peroxide (as opposed to the stabilized conventional kind) of a honey lightening recipe and can deplete or negatively interact with the peroxide levels.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
December 22nd, 2008, 03:15 PM
I started a new thread on antique combs, just out of interest.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=17329

the best part of which is this link, lol, Enjoy!

This link is hilarious, IMO, and includes this.
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~sousa/COMB.html

The page
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~sousa/

ktani
December 23rd, 2008, 07:19 AM
As the cold and flu season approaches, here is a very short update on honey used to help coughs, including the important warning not to give honey to children under 1 year of age.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/honey/AN01799

And here is a 24 hour cold chaser remedy. It does not contain honey but it is all natural. I have not tried it yet myself (no colds), but I did recommend it to someone who reported back that it did help.

Equal parts cinnamon, sage and bay leaf. Use 1 tsp of the mix to 1 cup boiled water. Drink one cup of the remedy every hour. It is supposed to get rid of a cold in 24 hours.

Large quantities of cassia cinnamon and sage are not recommended for long term use, but this remedy is "short and sweet" in terms of duration. http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/8500



The following information was posted earlier in this thread.

Cassia cinnamon and coumarins

"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon#Cinnamon_and_cassia

"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

"Frequently asked questions about coumarin in cinnamon and other foods"
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf

According to the author, in Germany, coumarin in any type of food is limited to 2 parts per million. See "Main constituents"
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_cas.html



I have posted this information elsewhere on the boards.

Sage safety
".... can be toxic when used in excess or when taken for extended periods ...."
http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Salvia+officinalis

"Toxic in excess or over long periods. Contraindicated during pregnancy ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sage

ktani
December 23rd, 2008, 09:08 PM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

Heidi_234
December 24th, 2008, 07:45 AM
Does the liquid need to penetrate the hair shaft for better results?

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Does the liquid need to penetrate the hair shaft for better results?

The peroxide is active enough to do what it needs to do. The idea of covering the hair is to keep it wet. The peroxide only works on very wet hair with honey lightening. It is not chemically stabilized like conventional peroxide. I do not know how much a particular honey lightening recipe penetrates hair. Covering the hair may help the conditioning benefits of honey and especially the oils, if used, penetrate as much as they can. Coconut oil penetrates hair in any case.

Heidi_234
December 24th, 2008, 08:41 AM
The peroxide is active enough to do what it needs to do. I am not sure what you mean. The idea of covering the hair is to keep it wet. The peroxide only works on very wet hair with honey lightening. It is not chemically stabilized like conventional peroxide. I do not know how much a honey lightening recipe "penetrates" hair. Just a thought I had. Before finishing the pre-treatment shower, would it be better to not finish off with cold rinse that closes the shaft?
If I remeber, conditioner should not be used before the honey lightening, or am I mixing up stuff?

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 08:53 AM
Just a thought I had. Before finishing the pre-treatment shower, would it be better to not finish off with cold rinse that closes the shaft?
If I remeber, conditioner should not be used before the honey lightening, or am I mixing up stuff?

I rethought and clarified my response before you replied just now.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=391893&postcount=3057

It is easy to get confused because the answers depend on variables.

You can CO before honey lightening, but you do not want residue, so it depends on whether the hair has any build-up than can be a problem.

A cold rinse is ok but not necessary IMO following honey lightening, especially if the cuticle is slightly open, and any extra colour may wash out. Honey lightening recipes are still acidic. The cuticle would not be very open in any case.

Heidi_234
December 24th, 2008, 09:09 AM
I rethought and clarified my response before you replied just now.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=391893&postcount=3057

It is easy to get confused because the answers depend on variables.

You can CO before honey lightening, but you do not want residue, so it depends on whether the hair has any build-up than can be a problem.

A cold rinse is ok but not necessary IMO following honey lightening, especially if the cuticle is slightly open, and any extra colour may wash out. Honey lightening recipes are still acidic. The cuticle would not be very open in any case.
Well then, okay I see. Haven't thought it through.

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 09:13 AM
Well then, okay I see. Haven't thought it through.

No worries. I had to do the same thing. I just got up a little while ago. I have the day off, lol.

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 02:19 PM
Happy Holidays Everyone!

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 02:51 PM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, as well as in the Honey threads, past and current (this one), to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
Oxygen bleaches are also color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

Heidi_234
December 24th, 2008, 03:04 PM
Does that mean the honey lightening liquid should stay in a dark place while the peroxide is forming?

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 03:10 PM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair
Updated with Heidi 234's pictures

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Heidi 234 after 2 treatments and the condition of her hair, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=361774&postcount=2963

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 03:38 PM
Lighting can be tricky with honey lighting pictures.

nayver -on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861)

nayver pictutes on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868)

More nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878)

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 03:42 PM
I had stopped recording pictures although I knew where everything was, lol.

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Does that mean the honey lightening liquid should stay in a dark place while the peroxide is forming?

I missed this, sorry.

A honey lightening recipe shoud be kept out of bright light when sitting to release peroxide, yes. It does not have to be kept in the dark, IMO.

Heidi_234
December 24th, 2008, 03:53 PM
I missed this, sorry.

A honey lightening recipe shoud be kept out of bright light when sitting to release peroxide, yes. It does not have to be kept in the dark.

okay then. I just thought I might have killed some peroxide last time by letting it sit in the bathroom, the most lightened up room in my house.
Hey I made it to the honey lightening hall of fame :D at times like this I wish I gave more thought to my username, instead of typing 234 mindlessly :o

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 03:58 PM
okay then. I just thought I might have killed some peroxide last time by letting it sit in the bathroom, the most lightened up room in my house.
Hey I made it to the honey lightening hall of fame :D at times like this I wish I gave more thought to my username, instead of typing 234 mindlessly :o

It depends on where the light is coming from in your bathroom. If it is coming from a window and strong daylight, that is not a good idea, IMO.

Sorry about taking so long to include your pictures in the list but if someone is not sure about their results, I hesitate now.

I have posted pictures, only to have people change their minds abour their results later, even though the pictures show clear lightening to me.

And I like your online name, lol.

Heidi_234
December 24th, 2008, 04:05 PM
It depends on where the light is coming from in your bathroom. If it is coming from a window and strong daylight, that is not a good idea, IMO.

Sorry about taking so long to include your pictures in the list but if someone is not sure about their results, I hesitate now.

I have posted pictures, only to have people change their minds abour their results later, even though the pictures show clear lightening to me.

And I like your online name, lol.
I keep that in mind. I plan to do one or two more honey lightening before my PP henna.
It's understandable. Well it is hard to know if it worked, because the change is subtle and it's hard to notice unless compared to what it used to be, and photos are not reliable due to light and settings differences. Every photo, especially if done on the auto mode on your camera, is taken with different settings. Even color correction in Photoshop will only contribute to it's unreliability.
Huh, thanks :p cheers

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 04:12 PM
I keep that in mind. I plan to do one or two more honey lightening before my PP henna.
It's understandable. Well it is hard to know if it worked, because the change is subtle and it's hard to notice unless compared to what it used to be, and photos are not reliable due to light and settings differences. Every photo, especially if done on the auto mode on your camera, is taken with different settings. Even color correction in Photoshop will only contribute to it's unreliability.
Huh, thanks :p cheers

That it is why it is always a good idea to get feedback from those around you IRL, IMO. People can see your hair in different light and help give you a perspective that you do not have.

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 04:15 PM
Updated Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

Heidi 234 after 2 treatments and the condition of her hair, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=361774&postcount=2963

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 04:16 PM
Heidi 234

You made it onto 2 lists, lol.

Heidi_234
December 24th, 2008, 04:45 PM
Heidi 234

You made it onto 2 lists, lol.
:bow: lol
Though I'm not sure if the first treatment should be counted. It just didn't work at all because my hair oiled and unclean.

ktani
December 24th, 2008, 05:12 PM
:bow: lol
Though I'm not sure if the first treatment should be counted. It just didn't work at all because my hair oiled and unclean.

Well you are quoted after 2 treatments, lol. Close enough.

For the some of others it is the same. galows gallery, Alley Cat too, wintersun99, to name a few. There is a learning curve with recipes and methods and choosing a good honey.

ktani
December 26th, 2008, 08:11 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
December 26th, 2008, 02:04 PM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
December 27th, 2008, 11:35 AM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

ktani
December 28th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

ktani
December 28th, 2008, 10:06 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
December 29th, 2008, 07:43 AM
All in one coumarin information, including the fact, that coumarins can be found in henna and indigo (a special thank you to ljkforu for alerting me to this last fact).
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=396844&postcount=84

ktani
December 29th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Updated to include side effect syptoms.

Coumarins

2008
"According to literature search, the side effects “nausea, vomits, headache and weakness” seem to refer to coumarin overdose"
http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human...22082808en.pdf (http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human/hmpc/meliloti_herba/22082808en.pdf)

Coumarin type drugs side effects, oral
"... Loss of appetite, nausea, diarrhea (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=1900) or blurred vision may occur at first as your body adjusts to the medication. Inform your doctor if you experience: unusual bleeding or bruising, blood in the urine or stools, severe headache (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=20628). May cause urine to turn orange-red in color. This is not harmful and will disappear when the medication is stopped. .... unlikely event an allergic reaction to this drug, seek medical attention immediately. Symptoms of an allergic reaction include: rash (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=1992), itching, swelling, dizziness, trouble breathing. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist."
http://www.medicinenet.com/coumarin-...al/article.htm (http://www.medicinenet.com/coumarin-type_drugs-oral/article.htm)



With coumarins, it is your total intake that needs to be considered. They can damage the liver but the good news is that the effect is reversible.
2007
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf



Cassia cinnamon
"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamo...mon_and_cassia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon#Cinnamon_and_cassia)

How to distinguish between cassia cinnamon, and true cinnamon (which has a neglible coumarin content)
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm



2007
"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569 (http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569)



Coumarins can also be found in henna and indigo (a special thank you to ljkforu for alerting me to this last fact).
2007
Indigo (indigo also contains saponins)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gMwLwbUwtfkC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=indigofera+tinctoria+coumarins&source=bl&ots=_zATG8GYQK&sig=x-vk6h-KH1E10wk-yhXhk8vOIjw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result

2005
Henna
" .... natural constituents of Lawsonia inermis are essential oils, 1,4-naphthoquinone, tannins, gallic acid, flavonoids, lipids, sugars, triacontyl tridecanoate, mannitol, xanthones, coumarins (5-alkyloxy 7-hydroxycoumarin), 2-3% resins, 5-10% tannic ingredients and up to 2% Lawsone (2-hydroxy-1,4-naphthoquinone) ...."
http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_sccp/docs/sccp_o_034.pdf

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=396844&postcount=84

ktani
December 29th, 2008, 02:07 PM
There has been the odd report on the boards of reactions to senna (cassia), that are usually from oral use. That is why I stress skin absorption as a possibility to consider with plants/herbs.

Cassia senna safety
Here are 3 links on cassia senna safety. This is the same cassia used to condition hair.

2008
1. "Major Side Effects
Cases of liver damage .... reported in individuals who consumed very large amounts of senna-containing products for long periods of time." http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/PrintablePages/herbMonograph/0,11475,4029,00.html

2. See "Adverse Reactions" ".... reports include occupational asthma and rhinoconjunctivitis from a factory worker exposed to senna-containing hair dyes .... and asthma and allergy symptoms from workers in a bulk laxative manufacturing facility...."
http://www.drugs.com/npp/senna.html

2003
"Skin breakdown and blisters from senna-containing laxatives in young children
Unintentional ingestion of senna-containing laxatives in young children may .... cause severe diaper rash, blisters, and skin sloughing."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12708936
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=302088&postcount=55

ktani
December 29th, 2008, 09:03 PM
As well as used in cosmetics, including perfume, coumarins can naturally be found in ... It all adds up. This is not a complete list.

2008
"Coumarin ... found in several plants, including beans, lavender, liquorice, strawberries, apricots, cherries, cinnamon, and sweet clover. Coumarin .... responsible for the sweet smell of new mown hay."
http://www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fi61.htm

Fenugreek
"Adverse Reactions
Common: .... flatulence, diarrhea, and other GI symptoms.
Reported: Bleeding, bruising, hypoglycemia. Repeated topical use can cause skin sensitization. Inhalation of the powder can cause asthma and allergic symptoms."
Anticoagulants: Fenugreek may potentiate effects due to coumarin content."
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69218.cfm

2007
Chamomile
".... Chamomile may increase anticoagulant effects and inhibit platelets due to coumarin content"
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69174.cfm

ktani
December 30th, 2008, 09:32 AM
Canada has a list of "Prohibited and Restricted Cosmetic Ingredients", that gets regularly updated.
"Section 16 of the Food and Drugs Act states .... no person shall sell a cosmetic product that has in it any substance that may injure the health of the user when the cosmetic is used according to its customary method.
.... Cosmetic Ingredient Hotlist is a science-based document that is reviewed and updated a few times per year as new scientific data becomes available. .... the Hotlist serves to keep the cosmetic industry aware of new substances of concern. .... recommended to check the Cosmetics Program website regularly, or contact the Cosmetics Division directly to ensure the most accurate information."
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/person/cosmet/info-ind-prof/_hot-list-critique/prohibited-eng.php

This is the current list.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/cps-spc/person/cosmet/info-ind-prof/_hot-list-critique/hotlist-liste-eng.php

ktani
December 31st, 2008, 09:59 AM
Propolis
"Bees create propolis, a natural resin, to build their hives. Propolis .... made from the buds of conifer and poplar trees, beeswax .... other bee secretions.

Side Effects and Warnings
.... safety of propolis has not been thoroughly studied. .... several case reports of allergic reactions to propolis .... generally believed to be well tolerated in most adults. Allergic reactions may cause swelling, redness, eczema, or fever.

Propolis may irritate the skin and may cause burning, peeling lips, irritation, lesions, itching, swelling, psoriasis, or eczema. Case reports of irritation in and around the mouth .... occurred after use of propolis lozenges or extract taken by mouth.

Toxicity data for propolis .... limited. Early studies .... found propolis to be relatively non-toxic. .... one report of kidney failure with the ingestion of propolis that improved upon discontinuing therapy and worsened with re-exposure. ....

.... not enough scientific evidence to recommend the use of propolis during pregnancy or breastfeeding. ...."
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/patient-propolis.html#Safety

ktani
December 31st, 2008, 04:28 PM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm

BetterInBlue
January 1st, 2009, 04:43 PM
I use a small dollap of honey mixed with conditioner to condition every time I shampoo. It makes my hair smoother and more bodiful. I'm not currently coloring my hair, but my question is: does honey strip out hair color (not henna, but regular permanent color?). Sometimes I like to go darker, but it seems my hair doesn't hold hair color for very long. Could the honey in my condish be contributing to this, or am I not using enough to make a difference? I use just a pea sized amount well mixed into conditioner.

ktani
January 1st, 2009, 05:27 PM
I use a small dollap of honey mixed with conditioner to condition every time I shampoo. It makes my hair smoother and more bodiful. I'm not currently coloring my hair, but my question is: does honey strip out hair color (not henna, but regular permanent color?). Sometimes I like to go darker, but it seems my hair doesn't hold hair color for very long. Could the honey in my condish be contributing to this, or am I not using enough to make a difference? I use just a pea sized amount well mixed into conditioner.

It should not but it depends on how long that you leave it on your hair.

Honey and conditioner can lighten hair, but it is usually gradual. The recommended time for using this combination is a minimum of 1 hour. You can microwave the honey first separately, for 30 seconds to under 1 minute, to prevent the possibility of lightening.

BetterInBlue
January 1st, 2009, 06:32 PM
Oh, I only leave it on for one or two minutes. I mix a pea sized amount of honey with a quarter-sized dollap of conditioner. I leave it on for a minute or so, then rinse. I do this after every shampoo, which is every other day.

ktani
January 1st, 2009, 06:34 PM
Oh, I only leave it on for one or two minutes. I mix a pea sized amount of honey with a quarter-sized dollap of conditioner. I leave it on for a minute or so, then rinse. I do this after every shampoo, which is every other day.

Then IMO, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, in terms of that recipe and method, stripping or lightening hair colour.

BetterInBlue
January 1st, 2009, 06:40 PM
Humm, I'm not sure how to edit a post - I don't see that option. I wanted to add that my hair's inabilitity to hold hair color for a long time could have to do with a change in its texture over the years. When I was 13, I got a "puberty perm" - my hair got very thick, coarse and wavy. This lasted throughout my teens. My hair seemed to take to color very easily at this time. My hair is a dark brown, and I was under the impression that if I used a light brown color, it would lighten it. This would turn my hair black, and the black would hold for weeks! I'm 27 now, and my hair has lost a lot of thickness and volume. The change in texture could have something to do with my coloring problem because this is when I noticed hair color not lasting as long. I will intentionally try to make it darker, using the same brands of color as before, and the color fades within a couple of days. I just wanted to make sure honey was not a contributing factor, but doesn't sound like it.

BetterInBlue
January 1st, 2009, 06:41 PM
Then IMO, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, in terms of that recipe and method, stripping or lightening hair colour.

Thanks! :)

ktani
January 1st, 2009, 06:44 PM
Thanks! :)

You are most welcome.

ktani
January 2nd, 2009, 07:19 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
January 2nd, 2009, 12:11 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
January 2nd, 2009, 03:05 PM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Heidi 234 after 2 treatments and the condition of her hair, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=361774&postcount=2963

ktani
January 2nd, 2009, 04:25 PM
Honey lightening on henndigoed hair

Indigo is another plant that has varied results on individuals. It can fade easily for some people or be very difficult to lighten.

Honey lightening has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair too. The new dilution, has been reported to work better than previous dilutions, on the more difficult, hard to lighten henndigo. However, some concentrations of henndigo proved resistant to any lightening (except a bleach recipe that all but destroyed test samples), even with conventional peroxide, on test samples of cut off ends, for wintersun99.

bizarrogirl used a previous dilution for her treatments, that included conditioner. However, when more water was added, her results were even better and less ground cinnamon was used. This lead in part to conditioner no longer being recommended for honey lightening. For many others, conditioner did not improve results and in some cases, interfered with honey lightening.

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/)

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair (multiple henndigo treatments) - the new dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersunn99 update
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281159&postcount=2278

wintersun99's honey lightening recipe and method Note: 3/4 cup is a US measurement = 1/2 cup Metric = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281794&postcount=2292

AethyrsWisdom
January 2nd, 2009, 09:41 PM
Okay, so i've been reading up for about 5 hours straight, and this seems promising! If i use this technique on jet black hair with reddish brown undertones from a previous semi-permanent dye (7 months ago, but still shows in the sun), what will be color be around? Hopefully a medium brown eventually? also, what is the best routine to do after lightening? regular 'poo and CO? and do you know if Fiji water (in the bottles sold at walmart) would be good to use for lightening? thank you so much for the answers!

ACWN
January 2nd, 2009, 09:45 PM
Okay, so i've been reading up for about 5 hours straight, and this seems promising! If i use this technique on jet black hair with reddish brown undertones from a previous semi-permanent dye (7 months ago, but still shows in the sun), what will be color be around? Hopefully a medium brown eventually? also, what is the best routine to do after lightening? regular 'poo and CO? and do you know if Fiji water (in the bottles sold at walmart) would be good to use for lightening? thank you so much for the answers!

I use Arrowhead for the water, and that works just fine... so Fiji would probably work as well. The color you'll get - eventually - would probably be a lighter reddish brown. But its gonna take a good long while.

I tend to put a little conditioner in my hair to loosen it up, rinse really well.. then shampoo and condition as usual - I also keep my conditioner in my hair then entire time I'm in the shower and I use Suave Humectant, and my hair has never been softer!

ktani
January 2nd, 2009, 10:23 PM
Okay, so i've been reading up for about 5 hours straight, and this seems promising! If i use this technique on jet black hair with reddish brown undertones from a previous semi-permanent dye (7 months ago, but still shows in the sun), what will be color be around? Hopefully a medium brown eventually? also, what is the best routine to do after lightening? regular 'poo and CO? and do you know if Fiji water (in the bottles sold at walmart) would be good to use for lightening? thank you so much for the answers!

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

I cannot predict exactly what colour you will get. Black hair, when lightented by any process, goes from black to brown to red to gold. Fiji water is a an artesian well water that contains minerals and I do not recommend it. http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=21160

I recommed distilled or deionized water, and distilled is preferable, IMO.

Here are examples of lightening dyed dark and natural black hair with old hi-lights (nayver). The number of treatments depends on how closely you follow the new recommendations and the honey you use. Some people started off with recipes that did not include distilled water and found later that they got better results with it and a different honey. Filtered, well, spring, mineral, and most tap waters and are all not recommended. They all contain minerals which can negatively affect a honey lighting recipe peroxide level.

I suggest using a recipe with cinnamon and/or cardamom added to it, after patch testing. Here is a link about choosing a honey and honey lightening boosters, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370. The new dilution measurements http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=307685&postcount=2442. More information on specifics can be found in the first post of this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1.

nayver pictures, after 2 treatments, with the new dilution and distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=349878&postcount=2878

nayver - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening this time (she had done it previously)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=347982&postcount=2861

nayver pictures on dark dyed hair, with the new dilution, after 1 treatment, using distilled water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=348680&postcount=2868

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

ktani
January 2nd, 2009, 10:31 PM
I use Arrowhead for the water, and that works just fine... so Fiji would probably work as well. The color you'll get - eventually - would probably be a lighter reddish brown. But its gonna take a good long while.

I tend to put a little conditioner in my hair to loosen it up, rinse really well.. then shampoo and condition as usual - I also keep my conditioner in my hair then entire time I'm in the shower and I use Suave Humectant, and my hair has never been softer!

Arrowhead is a spring water that also contains minerals and is not recommended for honey lightening. If you are using Arrowhead water, that is likely why your lightening is taking longer that it may otherwise. Minerals deplete a honey lightening recipe peroxide level.

ktani
January 2nd, 2009, 10:36 PM
From my signature post This information and that in the posts to follow, are all in the first post of this thread, in different links.

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...postcount=1173 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173)

ktani
January 2nd, 2009, 10:44 PM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
January 3rd, 2009, 08:09 AM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
January 3rd, 2009, 08:45 AM
A basic honey lightening treatment is water and honey. Both are key to a honey lightening treatment being successful. Choosing the right honey and using distilled water are IMO, crucial to the best results, in the least amount of time, and reports, as well as the research, support this.

Honey will be diluted and produce peroxide with any liquid that contains water but the results will all be different. That is what the new recommendations are for, to help clarify that, and get a honey lightening treatment to yield the best results, in the shortest amount of time possible.

ktani
January 3rd, 2009, 09:26 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH 7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
January 3rd, 2009, 09:50 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

ktani
January 3rd, 2009, 01:10 PM
People here have reported some of the internal use side effects of coumarins, from the topical use of henna and possibly indigo. I pulled this together from several previous posts of mine and new researched information, to make one complete post.

Coumarin

2008
"According to literature search, the side effects “nausea, vomits, headache and weakness” seem to refer to coumarin overdose" (http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human/hmpc/meliloti_herba/22082808en.pdf)

Coumarin type drugs side effects, oral
Loss of appetite, nausea, diarrhea (http://www.medicinenet.com/coumarin-type_drugs-oral/article.htm) or blurred vision may occur at first as your body adjusts to the medication. Inform your doctor if you experience: unusual bleeding or bruising, blood in the urine or stools, severe headache (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=20628). May cause urine to turn orange-red in color. This is not harmful and will disappear when the medication is stopped. .... unlikely event an allergic reaction to this drug, seek medical attention immediately. Symptoms of an allergic reaction include: rash (http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=1992), itching, swelling, dizziness, trouble breathing. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor or pharmacist."
http://www.medicinenet.com/coumarin-type_drugs-oral/article.htm


"Insomnia .... upset stomach, diarrhea, dizziness .... all been reported with taking large amounts of Coumarin."
http://www.pdrhealth.com/drugs/altmed/altmed-mono.aspx?contentFileName=ame0274.xml&contentName=Coumarin&contentId=434



With coumarin, it is your total intake that needs to be considered. They can damage the liver but the good news is that the effect is reversible.
2007
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf



Cassia cinnamon
"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamo...mon_and_cassia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon#Cinnamon_and_cassia)

How to distinguish between cassia cinnamon, and true cinnamon (which has a neglible coumarin content)
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm



2007
"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569 (http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569)



2008
"Coumarin ... found in several plants, including beans, lavender, liquorice, strawberries, apricots, cherries, cinnamon, and sweet clover. Coumarin .... responsible for the sweet smell of new mown hay."
http://www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fi61.htm

Fenugreek
"Adverse Reactions
Common: .... flatulence, diarrhea, and other GI symptoms.
Reported: Bleeding, bruising, hypoglycemia. Repeated topical use can cause skin sensitization. Inhalation of the powder can cause asthma and allergic symptoms."
Anticoagulants: Fenugreek may potentiate effects due to coumarin content."
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69218.cfm

2007
Chamomile
".... Chamomile may increase anticoagulant effects and inhibit platelets due to coumarin content"
http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69174.cfm

Coumarins can also be found in henna and indigo (a special thank you to ljkforu for alerting me to this last fact). HennaSooq was the first to have the information that henna contains coumarins so upfront on her website, http://www.hennasooq.com/whatishenna.shtml, as far as I know, but at the time, it was not noted or commented on, other than mellie finding and posting that here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=379790&postcount=15 and it was not persued then because no one had reported the side effects mentioned yet, from either henna or indigo use.

2007
Indigo (indigo also contains saponins)
http://books.google.ca/books?id=gMwLwbUwtfkC&pg=PA328&lpg=PA328&dq=indigofera+tinctoria+constituents&source=bl&ots=_zBYG5IXTP&sig=ypR7sCwwN2KlXlhK5Oe3qfA8ZAU&hl=en&ei=lz89SqXVII3KM-jHgbsO&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

2005
Henna
" .... natural constituents of Lawsonia inermis are essential oils, 1,4-naphthoquinone, tannins, gallic acid, flavonoids, lipids, sugars, triacontyl tridecanoate, mannitol, xanthones, coumarins (5-alkyloxy 7-hydroxycoumarin), 2-3% resins, 5-10% tannic ingredients and up to 2% Lawsone (2-hydroxy-1,4-naphthoquinone) ...."
http://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_sccp/docs/sccp_o_034.pdf

ktani
January 3rd, 2009, 01:24 PM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
January 3rd, 2009, 01:25 PM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
January 3rd, 2009, 07:34 PM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
January 4th, 2009, 12:27 PM
Adding honey to a henna treatment has come up, recently.

The new dilution has been reported to work so well for a few reasons.

There are 3 key ones, for a honey lightening treatment to work as well as it can.

1. A good peroxide producing honey

2. The right water (distilled) or tap water with a pH of 7 and no minerals

3. The right dilution, basic, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of distilled water

Then there is the method. The hair must be kept very evenly wet, which is not the same as dripping, throughout the time that the treatment is on the hair, either covered, or constantly misted.

I do not know how much water is used to how much henna, but I understand that it is a thick paste. That means not too much water. Adding honey to a thick paste with water in it will dilute the honey and if it is straight distilled water (no added Vitamin C, like lemon juice in the mix), it should not have too low a pH but honey needs to be pH 6, for optimal peroxide production. Henna is about pH 4.5 and most honey is that or lower. Put it altogether and the conditions are not ideal for much in the way of lightening to happen. It may but slight, IMO, at best.

There one way this may work to prevent henna from going darker. It is an unknown, and I cannot predict results or go by reports.

Mix a honey lightening treatment first, with honey lightening boosters, 3 of them if you can, 1 tablespoon each of ground cinnamon, ground cardamom and evoo, to 2 tablespoons honey and 6 oz of distilled water and let that sit for 2 hours (you can also use 2 tablespoons of ground cinnamon or ground cardamom). Use that mix only to dilute the henna powder, for dye release, or better yet, mix distilled water only with the henna first (you will have more distilled water in the mix), then add the honey lightening treatment, but you will not need the full amount. The treatment will already have produced peroxide. Once you add the honey lightening treatment to the henna, it will not produce much if any more peroxide. It may help prevent the henna from darkening.

ktani
January 4th, 2009, 06:58 PM
As the cold and flu season approaches, here is a very short update on honey used to help coughs, including the important warning not to give honey to children under 1 year of age.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/honey/AN01799

And here is a 24 hour cold chaser remedy. It does not contain honey but it is all natural. I have not tried it yet myself (no colds), but I did recommend it to someone who reported back that it did help.

Equal parts cinnamon, sage and bay leaf. Use 1 tsp of the mix to 1 cup boiled water. Drink one cup of the remedy every hour, for 24 hours. It is supposed to get rid of a cold in the 24 hours.

Large quantities of cassia cinnamon and sage are not recommended for long term use, but this remedy is "short and sweet" in terms of duration. http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/8500



The following information was posted earlier in this thread.

Cassia cinnamon and coumarins

"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon#Cinnamon_and_cassia

"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

"Frequently asked questions about coumarin in cinnamon and other foods"
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf

According to the author, in Germany, coumarin in any type of food is limited to 2 parts per million. See "Main constituents"
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_cas.html



I have posted this information elsewhere on the boards.

Sage safety
".... can be toxic when used in excess or when taken for extended periods ...."
http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Salvia+officinalis

"Toxic in excess or over long periods. Contraindicated during pregnancy ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sage

ktani
January 5th, 2009, 07:36 AM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
January 5th, 2009, 12:11 PM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
January 6th, 2009, 08:00 AM
How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
January 6th, 2009, 08:35 AM
Jarrah honey is known to have a very high peroxide value.

“WA scientists claim jarrah honey benefit
Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average .... But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf

see "Comparing Different Types of Honey" - date 2008
" .... Jarrah honey .... contains higher amounts of glucose oxidase .... "
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

Glucose oxidase is the enzyme in honey that generates hydrogen peroxide.

Jarrah honey suppliers I found and contacted - prices and shipping costs vary as will stock amounts. There are no doubt more suppliers out there - this to start you off. As more are reported, I will add them to this list.

International shipping will be noted with an asterisk *.

*1. Their price list and they report Jarrah honey in stock. They do ship internationally.
Prices
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html)
Contact page
http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html)

*2. Yes to Jarrah honey in stock and they ship internationally. This one seems to be fast on replies to inquiries.
Contact page
http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm)
Order page with prices
http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm)


Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

gallow gallery on Jarrah honey Note: Distilled water is recommended over filtered water, which contains minerals.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery pictures taken after the above link
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

ktani
January 6th, 2009, 09:34 AM
Manuka honey in the news

".... a split by Professor Peter Molan from dealings with the Active Manuka Honey Association (AMHA) which runs the ratings and testing test system he researched for biologically-active manuka honey.

.... Molan .... head of Waikato University's honey research Unit .... previously said that it would mislead consumers to represent the antibacterial activity of manuka honey by listing the methylglyoxal level.

"Although it is the component responsible for the activity, complex interactions with other components of the honey cause the actual antibacterial activity that results from it in the honey to vary," he said."
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/536641/2355729

ktani
January 6th, 2009, 10:13 AM
Honey wound healing and scarring, 2008
(This pdf has duplicate text for some reason.)

"Honey .... leaves infected wounds very clean, because .... ability to break down the "biofilm" found in many wounds. .... also has anti-inflammatory properties, reducing pain .... also can reduce scarring.

.... Professor Peter Molan, who heads the Honey Research Unit at the University of Waikato. Molan, a biochemist, .... researching the properties of honey for about 23 years. .... anti-bacterial properties were particularly high in manuka honey, from New Zealand. .... high levels have since been discovered in honey produced from other plants of the Leptospermum species ....

Part of Molan's research .... commercialised with the New Zealand health solutions company, Comvita .... now producing honey-impregnated sterile wound dressings.

.... Molan ....continuing to investigate the properties of honey and .... how it activates the protein-digesting enzymes in wound tissues .... he believes are responsible for honey leaving wounds so clean, without damaging the surrounding skin.

His own recent .... with plastic surgery .... moles were removed from his hand, allowed Molan to test honey's scar prevention properties.
"My plastic surgeon warned me that I would have a scar. I put a honey dressing on straight away afterwards and kept it on for about a week afterwards and there's not a mark left there now. I had an information sheet on how to deal with the pain, but I had no pain."
http://www.louthbeekeepers.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=31


More on Professor Molan, including his advice to young scientists, and more.
"This research can make a big difference to the lives of patients, and their family..."
http://www.biotechlearn.org.nz/about/people_and_careers/peter_molan

"Professor Peter Molan is the inaugural recipient of the Science Entrepreneur Kudo Award, sponsored by Waikato Innovation Park."
http://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/science_stories/celebrating_science/professor_peter_molan

ktani
January 6th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair.

The research and reports on how to help prevent damage from conventional peroxide and bleach.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495.

ktani
January 6th, 2009, 07:09 PM
Something interesting in this link

"* Ulcers can be treated at a low cost by thyme honey .... difficult to maintain a high concentration of honey at the gastric mucosa .... extended periods."
http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2006/10/apimedica-presentation-honey-and.html

may have and answer from this link

"UMF Active Manuka to treat H. pylori
Research .... by world honey expert Dr Peter Molan .... Waikato University Honey Research Centre .... good results ....
eating 20g (a heaped teaspoon) of Active Manuka Honey on a small square of bread one hour before meals .... (The bread was added to ensure the honey stayed in the stomach for longer periods)"
http://www.honeybalm.com/article/36

ktani
January 6th, 2009, 08:35 PM
A slight honey lightening departure.

Tea rinses have been reported to be drying to the hair.

In my research on tea and Vitamin C, I came across possible explanations as to why regular tea rinses might be drying to the hair - its resin content - among other things - that IMO, can build-up on hair and or interfere with other products.

Tea - Camellia sinensis - chemistry
"Tea polyphenols also have high .... affinity to ..... carbohydrates, proteins, and nucleic acids.
Herbal teas, which contain various known or unknown components .... quite different from tea (Camellia sinensis) ...."
http://www.teatalk.com/science/chemistry.htm (http://www.teatalk.com/science/chemistry.htm)

"A good amount of tea is placed in the pot with tweezers .... along with the cups it is washed in special bowls already filled with hot tea. This "seals" the cups with the tea's resins."
http://www.btmbeijing.com/contents/en/btm/2002-09/teaspecial/Tea (http://www.btmbeijing.com/contents/en/btm/2002-09/teaspecial/Tea)

Camellia sinensis - tea
"Constituents --.... aqueous extract, protein wax, resin, ash and theophylline."
http://www.inpursuitoftea.com/category_s/46.htm (http://www.inpursuitoftea.com/category_s/46.htm)

ktani
January 7th, 2009, 08:08 AM
GlassEyes honey lightening on naturally black hair with the old recipe and dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241566&postcount=10

GlassEyes recipe and method - 4 or 5 days a week for a month
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241626&postcount=12

GlassEyes on why the old recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=241667&postcount=15

Honey lightening has progressed considerably since then.

I think his results would have been much faster and better with the new dilution, distilled water and new recipes but his method was perfect, IMO.

I added the honey the used to the Successful Honeys List here
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Heidi_234
January 7th, 2009, 10:40 AM
Oh Ktani, I'm such a train wreck!
I tried to search for other natural methods known for lightening hair, and nothing seem to be as solid as honey lightening. Some people wrote about mixing equal parts of ground cinnamon and conditioner and apply to hair. Some said it did lighten their hair. The sources are not that reliable though. :shrug: Then I remembered you wrote that although cinnamon has high peroxide value, honey still have higher, so I decided to do another honey lightening treatment.
I mixed the usual 2 tbs honey to 6 oz distilled water, added 1 tbs ground cardamom, 1 tbs of EVOO and little bit of cinnamon. I left it to do it thing for an hour.
I saw in your last post that how GlassEyes was doing this treatment for a month, 3-4 times a week and I started toying with the idea of doing back to back honey lightening today. While i calculated the times, I got distracted and started dipping my hair into the bowl with the mix when i actually intended to wet and shampoo my hair in order to clarify it! Last few days I was applying coconut oil morning and evening constantly, so it was dry and possibly full of coconut oil. I practically made the same mistake I made the first time. :doh:
Anyway, I decided that half of the honey water is already in my hair, I should go though with it, and then do another treatment after washing out this one. This way I'll get a guarantee for at least one treatment and maybe even two. I also worked out new system for my swim hat. I found a Lycra swim hat, it is small but stretchy, and I bagged my head with plastic and put on the Lycra swim hat on top, because the Lycra is not waterproof. I had much less dripping this two times (even when my hair was wet the second time), because the swim cap didn't squeeze the water out. I made another mix. I sat with the honey for an hour, and rinse it out. Then i clarified like i should have done the first time and applied the second mix to my hair.
Now I'm sitting and waiting for my time to go to the shower. I did 'before' pics so I hope by this time tomorrow I'll have my 'after' pics to report back with.

ktani
January 7th, 2009, 11:35 AM
Oh Ktani, I'm such a train wreck!
I tried to search for other natural methods known for lightening hair, and nothing seem to be as solid as honey lightening. Some people wrote about mixing equal parts of ground cinnamon and conditioner and apply to hair. Some said it did lighten their hair. The sources are not that reliable though. :shrug: Then I remembered you wrote that although cinnamon has high peroxide value, honey still have higher, so I decided to do another honey lightening treatment.
I mixed the usual 2 tbs honey to 6 oz distilled water, added 1 tbs ground cardamom, 1 tbs of EVOO and little bit of cinnamon. I left it to do it thing for an hour.
I saw in your last post that how GlassEyes was doing this treatment for a month, 3-4 times a week and I started toying with the idea of doing back to back honey lightening today. While i calculated the times, I got distracted and started dipping my hair into the bowl with the mix when i actually intended to wet and shampoo my hair in order to clarify it! Last few days I was applying coconut oil morning and evening constantly, so it was dry and possibly full of coconut oil. I practically made the same mistake I made the first time. :doh:
Anyway, I decided that half of the honey water is already in my hair, I should go though with it, and then do another treatment after washing out this one. This way I'll get a guarantee for at least one treatment and maybe even two. I also worked out new system for my swim hat. I found a Lycra swim hat, it is small but stretchy, and I bagged my head with plastic and put on the Lycra swim hat on top, because the Lycra is not waterproof. I had much less dripping this two times (even when my hair was wet the second time), because the swim cap didn't squeeze the water out. I made another mix. I sat with the honey for an hour, and rinse it out. Then i clarified like i should have done the first time and applied the second mix to my hair.
Now I'm sitting and waiting for my time to go to the shower. I did 'before' pics so I hope by this time tomorrow I'll have my 'after' pics to report back with.

It does not read that you are a train wreck to me. You recovered beautifully and you got it all right, the way your post reads. That is all that counts, IMO, understanding the honey lightening recipe dilution, recipes and method and just doing it.

Cinnamon and conditioner has been reported to work without honey but it can take months to see results. It lightens slowly. Both are acidic. Distilled water has been reported to work better with the honey lightening boosters too.

The text I put in bold is most interesting and an excellent method to keep the hair as wet as it needs to be, for a honey lightening treatment

I look forward to reading your next report and hopefully, seeing pictures too.

ktani
January 7th, 2009, 04:06 PM
Information I posted elsewhere on pH.

pH and shampoo Note: From everything I have read, conventional conditioners on the market are acidic. They are designed to close the hair cuticle, as well as condition.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=258510&postcount=1293

pH and skin
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=258601&postcount=1294

The importance of maintaining an acidic pH on skin
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=258625&postcount=1295

The pH of foods
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html

pH test strips - there are different kinds
http://www.indigo.com/test-strips/pH-test-strips.html

ktani
January 7th, 2009, 04:11 PM
Going back over some research in the original Honey thread and discussing it with a friend, certain points of interest were raised.

In a study done on the hydrogen peroxide generated by a range of 8 honeys on dilution, more peroxide was produced at a 30 - 40 % concentration than at other honey to water concentrations (the full study is not currently online).

However, the optimal pH of a honey water solution to produce hydrogen peroxide is 6. In the study, the solutions at various dilutions, were all chemically buffered, and then adjusted with sodium hydroxide to pH 6, as required, before the testing began.

In the Honey threads, when conditioner was used at 2 parts to 1 with honey, lightening was reported but it was very gradual in most cases. All conditioners are acidic, because as well as conditioning hair, they are designed to close the cuticle and keep hair smooth. Mixing conditioner with honey to lighten hair, can be problematic in 3 ways; ingredients that interfere with lightening, water content depending on the conditioner, and pH.

Tap water has various pH levels and a varying mineral content. Minerals can negatively affect hydrogen peroxide levels. Distilled water has a pH of 7 or neutral and no minerals.



The pH of honey can vary between 3.2 and 6.1, depending on the source of information (I think that the 2nd source's information below, is the more typical range. Canadian honeys tested for a science project, http://www.saskatchewanbeekeepers.ca/users/folder.asp@FolderID=5136.htm), averaged out to pH 6. Unless you test a honey, you do not know what pH it is on dilution, and at what dilution, with liquids. Many honeys on the market are blends of honey from all over the world, even single source (type) honeys, like clover.

Originally Posted by Marlowe in another thread
"According to the bottle Burleson's honey is U.S. Grade A Fancy clover, sourced from the U.S.A., Argentina, Canada, Brazil, Vietnam, Mexico, and India."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=275298&postcount=10

1. “average pH of honey is 3.9 …. typical range of 3.4 to 6.1”
http://www.honey.com/foodindustry/resourcedb/pdfs/ph-acidsinhoney.pdf

2. "Honey .... characteristically quite acidic pH .... between 3.2 and 4.5”
http://bio.waikato.ac.nz/honey/honey_intro.shtml#Acidity



I think that the new dilution with distilled water, works so well for so many people, because the pH of the honey water solution is at a level that allows more peroxide to be produced than previous dilutions, with conditioner and tap water, aside from other factors.

I looked into pH buffers. The one in the study was used at a very precise, very low concentration, so was the sodium hydroxide. Different pH buffers have different applications (they react chemically in different ways) so self buffering a honey lightening recipe (by adding a pH buffer) is not recommended, and the same applies to using sodium hydroxide, IMO. I think that buffering and adjusting a honey water solution to pH 6, would be very difficult to do, without the proper measuring and safety equipment, and precautions. Both the buffer and the sodium hydroxide used in the study, were specific for the purpose intended, and honey.

How the information from the study translates to honey lightening is simple, IMO. You can use the new dilution. It has been reported to be a great success so far, or you can test the pH of the honey you buy on dilution, and if it is pH 6, which is possible, try a dilution with less distilled water than the new dilution.

ole gray mare
January 7th, 2009, 11:50 PM
Hello, Honey experts.

I've got an SOS.

I have silver hair, mostly the canopy is silver. I have salt and pepper underneath. And on the lowest layers, my hair is very dark brown, nearly black, with red highlights. (You can see the overall effect in my profile photo and albums...it's mostly just silver that shows up, especially in the light.)

I have been having a problem with the canopy yellowing and I think it is rust in my pipes. (As opposed to sun damage.) So I read a silly homemade remedy to remove rust from hair, that involved lemonade. And wouldn't you know, I tried it, with Kool Aid lemonade. Applied a paste of Kool Aid (neon yellow) to my canopy and left it on for 10 minutes. And what I ended up with was truly yellow hair. A fairly golden/golden-brown canopy, with silver underneath.

It looks awful.

I washed the Kool aid out with chelating shampoo (twice) followed by a deep conditioning. Yet, it came out very golden, as I mentioned.

So for the last three days, I've been oiling and I will try doing a wash tomorrow with bluing shampoo and a long conditioning with bluing conditioner. I hope that will help balance out the yellow, but the fact is that there is pigment now in my silver hair, where there wasn't before.

If I can get the pigment balanced out with the bluing conditioner, I'm thinking I'd like to try lightening it with honey over time.

Again, I only want to do the canopy. I prefer to keep the contrast of colors underneath. I liked it a great deal.

Do you think this will work on this yellow kool aid pigment? How about the rust pigment (which was the original problem I was trying to solve.) Can I apply the honey mixture (I realize I have to use distilled water) to just the canopy?

I feel like a total idiot. I've spent so much time growing my hair to this length and it looks really awful now!

I hope you can help.

Thanks everyone!

melikai
January 8th, 2009, 01:40 AM
hi ole gray mare!

I know that this is the honey thread, but have you thought of trying a colour remover - I think they're called Color Fix and/or Color Oops? I know that it worked very well for another lady on the boards who was trying to remove black dye, restoring her hair to its natural shade. Sorry if this is obvious advice someone has already given you.

As for honey, I definitely found that it took out some of the yellow that my bleached ends I'm growing out had developed over time. I used a mix with ground cardamom.

I also recommend being careful about any yellowish oils you may put on your hair (test EVOO and such on a napkin to see if they stain), and beware of anything with chamomile!

Finally, and I think you mentioned you were going to try this in your blog, if you can find one of those shampoos for silver hair, they remove yellow tones well. They are usually purple coloured. I used grape Kool-Aid for this a few times too - although your adventures with Kool-Aid may now be at an end ;)

Don't worry - we've all done things to our hair in the spur of the moment with not always happy outcomes. I'm sure we'll be able to help you get your colour back to what it was!

ktani
January 8th, 2009, 07:57 AM
Hello, Honey experts.

I've got an SOS.

I have silver hair, mostly the canopy is silver. I have salt and pepper underneath. And on the lowest layers, my hair is very dark brown, nearly black, with red highlights. (You can see the overall effect in my profile photo and albums...it's mostly just silver that shows up, especially in the light.)

I have been having a problem with the canopy yellowing and I think it is rust in my pipes. (As opposed to sun damage.) So I read a silly homemade remedy to remove rust from hair, that involved lemonade. And wouldn't you know, I tried it, with Kool Aid lemonade. Applied a paste of Kool Aid (neon yellow) to my canopy and left it on for 10 minutes. And what I ended up with was truly yellow hair. A fairly golden/golden-brown canopy, with silver underneath.

It looks awful.

I washed the Kool aid out with chelating shampoo (twice) followed by a deep conditioning. Yet, it came out very golden, as I mentioned.

So for the last three days, I've been oiling and I will try doing a wash tomorrow with bluing shampoo and a long conditioning with bluing conditioner. I hope that will help balance out the yellow, but the fact is that there is pigment now in my silver hair, where there wasn't before.

If I can get the pigment balanced out with the bluing conditioner, I'm thinking I'd like to try lightening it with honey over time.

Again, I only want to do the canopy. I prefer to keep the contrast of colors underneath. I liked it a great deal.

Do you think this will work on this yellow kool aid pigment? How about the rust pigment (which was the original problem I was trying to solve.) Can I apply the honey mixture (I realize I have to use distilled water) to just the canopy?

I feel like a total idiot. I've spent so much time growing my hair to this length and it looks really awful now!

I hope you can help.

Thanks everyone!

I do not think that you need a colour remover just yet, I think that you should start with honey lightening, for both problems.

Honey added to baby shampoo may work too.

I do not think you should feel so bad about this. Ok, the colour sucks but you have not damaged your hair or lost masses of it. I have done worse things to my hair over the years. It is all in the perspective and this can be fixed.

Your hair has been stained but that stain (the yellow) should wash out on its own over time. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair yet, so I see no problem with your using it. Honey lightening should help with the rust stain too.

2 tablespoons of honey to 6 oz of distilled water. All of the information you need is in this post, by topic. You can add ground cardamom or cinnamon or the booster oils (diluted in the recipe they should be fine, just do not use more than 1 tablespoon in total, for the oil)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

You can apply the honey lightening to specific sections with a tint, blush or pastry brush, just make sire to get the sections very wet with the treatment and keep them wet, covered or misted constantly.

The dilution measurements and the list of Honeys is in the recommendations links and if you do not understand something, just post. I am online frequently and I always reply to Honey thread posts.

ktani
January 8th, 2009, 08:18 AM
hi ole gray mare!

I know that this is the honey thread, but have you thought of trying a colour remover - I think they're called Color Fix and/or Color Oops? I know that it worked very well for another lady on the boards who was trying to remove black dye, restoring her hair to its natural shade. Sorry if this is obvious advice someone has already given you.

As for honey, I definitely found that it took out some of the yellow that my bleached ends I'm growing out had developed over time. I used a mix with ground cardamom.

I also recommend being careful about any yellowish oils you may put on your hair (test EVOO and such on a napkin to see if they stain), and beware of anything with chamomile!

Finally, and I think you mentioned you were going to try this in your blog, if you can find one of those shampoos for silver hair, they remove yellow tones well. They are usually purple coloured. I used grape Kool-Aid for this a few times too - although your adventures with Kool-Aid may now be at an end ;)

Don't worry - we've all done things to our hair in the spur of the moment with not always happy outcomes. I'm sure we'll be able to help you get your colour back to what it was!

I only think the colour remover is a second option because it has been reported to be very drying. Your other advice on the oils and the cardamom is right on.

Heidi_234
January 8th, 2009, 08:37 AM
It does not read that you are a train wreck to me. You recovered beautifully and you got it all right, the way your post reads. That is all that counts, IMO, understanding the honey lightening recipe dilution, recipes and method and just doing it.

Cinnamon and conditioner has been reported to work without honey but it can take months to see results. It lightens slowly. Both are acidic. Distilled water has been reported to work better with the honey lightening boosters too.

The text I put in bold is most interesting and an excellent method to keep the hair as wet as it needs to be, for a honey lightening treatment

I look forward to reading your next report and hopefully, seeing pictures too.

Oh I just forgot to mention that I almost screwed up the dilution the first time, even though it was my 4th time doing it.
Anyway, my hair dried finally. I tried to take pictures, but for some reason the change doesn't show up! :justy: Despite that I think the lightening did work, because my hair 'shimmers' more than it did before the honey. And I think it looks brighter now, even though it's hard to tell as I have nothing to compare to. So, I'm not sure what to think.
I thought that the swim cap idea would be good to share. From my experience now I thin it's better to use not waterproof stretching cap with plastic bag underneath rather then waterproof but too small, as it squeezes all the liquids out and drips more as well.
One thing interesting to point out, my pony circumference grew larger all of a sudden. I measured 4" not so long ago, same as it was when I joined. Yesterday when I bunned my hair I felt it was much thicker, so I measure it and it was 4.5". It probably temporary result from the honey, I'll measure again after the next shower to make sure. Just thought it would be interesting to point out.
about the cinnamon thing, based on what you write here in the thread I thought so too. But the people who commented on the cinnamon-conditioner method did seem to be the type who adhere to a method that takes months to show result. I didn't save the link to that site, but from what I've read, they might used it once and reported lightening. It's interesting, maybe there's a way to make the cinnamon lightening abilities stronger, like optimal conditions or certain substance that triggers peroxide release or something. :shrug:
I thought of something else too. Do you think that making a bowl with the honey lightening mix and keeping the length dipped in it for an hour would be as good as applying it on the head? I personally don't care if my roots won't get lightened, I even like people who's hair is gradually goes from dark roots to bright ends, I would love it on myself too. So, if I just keep my length dipped in the solution and sit like that for an hour (watch TV or something), do you think it will work? I would prefer this, because I really really hate the dripping personally, drives me nuts!
So anyway, this was my 4th and 5th back to back honey lightenings, can't report much damage, just softness and thickness. :D

ktani
January 8th, 2009, 08:56 AM
Oh I just forgot to mention that I almost screwed up the dilution the first time, even though it was my 4th time doing it.
Anyway, my hair dried finally. I tried to take pictures, but for some reason the change doesn't show up! :justy: Despite that I think the lightening did work, because my hair 'shimmers' more than it did before the honey. And I think it looks brighter now, even though it's hard to tell as I have nothing to compare to. So, I'm not sure what to think.
I thought that the swim cap idea would be good to share. From my experience now I thin it's better to use not waterproof stretching cap with plastic bag underneath rather then waterproof but too small, as it squeezes all the liquids out and drips more as well.
1. One thing interesting to point out, my pony circumference grew larger all of a sudden. I measured 4" not so long ago, same as it was when I joined. Yesterday when I bunned my hair I felt it was much thicker, so I measure it and it was 4.5". It probably temporary result from the honey, I'll measure again after the next shower to make sure. Just thought it would be interesting to point out.
about the cinnamon thing, based on what you write here in the thread I thought so too. 2. But the people who commented on the cinnamon-conditioner method did seem to be the type who adhere to a method that takes months to show result. I didn't save the link to that site, but from what I've read, they might used it once and reported lightening. It's interesting, maybe there's a way to make the cinnamon lightening abilities stronger, like optimal conditions or certain substance that triggers peroxide release or something. :shrug:
I thought of something else too. Do you think that making a bowl with the honey lightening mix and keeping the length dipped in it for an hour would be as good as applying it on the head? I personally don't care if my roots won't get lightened, I even like people who's hair is gradually goes from dark roots to bright ends, 3. I would love it on myself too. So, if I just keep my length dipped in the solution and sit like that for an hour (watch TV or something), do you think it will work? I would prefer this, because I really really hate the dripping personally, drives me nuts!
So anyway, this was my 4th and 5th back to back honey lightenings, 4. can't report much damage, just softness and thickness. :D

I am trying a new bolding technique to keep track, and not miss anthing by adding numbers.

1. Hair has been reported to be stronger with honey lightening. Thicker is new and very nice.

2. Using ground cinnamon with conditioner for lightening, lightening has been reported right away but like honey with conditioner it has been reported as very slight (same reason, the acidity, IMO). Using the cinnamon with distilled water would raise the pH and it has been reported to yield better results.

3. Yes, you could do that. I see no reason why not. Or, you could just use less solution but still keep you hair very saturated and wet with it.

4. Are you saying there was damage? Just not much? Or no damage.

Heidi_234
January 8th, 2009, 09:26 AM
I am trying a new bolding technique to keep track, and not miss anthing by adding numbers.

1. Hair has been reported to be stronger with honey lightening. Thicker is new and very nice.

2. Using ground cinnamon with conditioner for lightening, lightening has been reported right away but like honey with conditioner it has been reported as very slight (same reason, the acidity, IMO). Using the cinnamon with distilled water would raise the pH and it has been reported to yield better results.

3. Yes, you could do that. I see no reason why not. Or, you could just use less solution but still keep you hair very saturated and wet with it.

4. Are you saying there was damage? Just not much? Or no damage.
The bolding&numbering technique seems to be very neat , I have to say!
Anyway, back to business.
I'll address #4 right away - I have no damage to report of. In any case honey is always a treat to my hair, as it tends to dryness and now it doesn't seem to be as dry as usual.
The cinnamon idea is something to look into, maybe I'll try do a more serious research later on.
I would most certainly attempt to do the bowl thing my next shower day, or if not then I'll measure my pony circumference again to check about the thickness thing. Either way of course keep you posted. :flower:

ktani
January 8th, 2009, 09:39 AM
The bolding&numbering technique seems to be very neat , I have to say!
Anyway, back to business.
I'll address #4 right away - I have no damage to report of. In any case honey is always a treat to my hair, as it tends to dryness and now it doesn't seem to be as dry as usual.
The cinnamon idea is something to look into, maybe I'll try do a more serious research later on.
I would most certainly attempt to do the bowl thing my next shower day, or if not then I'll measure my pony circumference again to check about the thickness thing. Either way of course keep you posted. :flower:

Thank you for the damage clarification. Just checking, although I reread the "just softness and thickness part".

I researched the pH of both ground cinnamon and cardamom. They are acidic (with a pH below 6. I tested ground cinnamon. Its pH is about 4.5) http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=282315&postcount=2296.

LadyPolaris, for example, found that using distilled water in place of the filtered water she had been using, with her honey lightening treatment with ground cinnamon, made a positive difference in her results, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651. Filtered water has both minerals and an unknown pH (unless you know the pH of your tap water), that can negatively affect recipe peroxide levels.

ole gray mare
January 8th, 2009, 02:54 PM
I do not think that you need a colour remover just yet, I think that you should start with honey lightening, for both problems.

Honey added to baby shampoo may work too.

I do not think you should feel so bad about this. Ok, the colour sucks but you have not damaged your hair or lost masses of it. I have done worse things to my hair over the years. It is all in the perspective and this can be fixed.

Your hair has been stained but that stain (the yellow) should wash out on its own over time. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair yet, so I see no problem with your using it. Honey lightening should help with the rust stain too.

2 tablespoons of honey to 6 oz of distilled water. All of the information you need is in this post, by topic. You can add ground cardamom or cinnamon or the booster oils (diluted in the recipe they should be fine, just do not use more than 1 tablespoon in total, for the oil)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

You can apply the honey lightening to specific sections with a tint, blush or pastry brush, just make sire to get the sections very wet with the treatment and keep them wet, covered or misted constantly.

The dilution measurements and the list of Honeys is in the recommendations links and if you do not understand something, just post. I am online frequently and I always reply to Honey thread posts.

Thank you for your responses.

I just want to revisit the order of what I'm thinking. I planned to try a heavy coconut oiling tonight. (I've been oiling for the past two days.) And then the blueing shampoo and conditioner. I've used the these blueing shampoos and conditioners a fair amount and have found them less and less effective on the yellow, which I presumed was coming from rust in my pipes.

So my plan was thus:

heavy oiling
blueing shampoo
blueing conditioner, left on for a good long while. (It's actually very conditioning, not stripping.)
neutral conditioner
light coconut oil

Repeat the process in a few days.

THEN, I was thinking to start the honey...assuming the blueing won't be able to take care of the whole problem.

See, the thing is...the blueing stuff doesn't take the yellow out. It just deposits violet pigment, to offset the yellow. The end result is that you still have pigment in your hair, but it appears silver/gray.

My hope was the balance the pigment with the blueing stuff, and then gradually lift it all out (both the yellow and the violet) with honey, because actually, the hair most affected is white, and I'd like to have THAT back.

Does this all make sense?

Do you think I should go in the reverse order?

Thanks for all your help!

ktani
January 8th, 2009, 03:07 PM
Thank you for your responses.

I just want to revisit the order of what I'm thinking. I planned to try a heavy coconut oiling tonight. (I've been oiling for the past two days.) And then the blueing shampoo and conditioner. I've used the these blueing shampoos and conditioners a fair amount and have found them less and less effective on the yellow, which I presumed was coming from rust in my pipes.

So my plan was thus:

heavy oiling
blueing shampoo
blueing conditioner, left on for a good long while. (It's actually very conditioning, not stripping.)
neutral conditioner
light coconut oil

Repeat the process in a few days.

THEN, I was thinking to start the honey...assuming the blueing won't be able to take care of the whole problem.

See, the thing is...the blueing stuff doesn't take the yellow out. It just deposits violet pigment, to offset the yellow. The end result is that you still have pigment in your hair, but it appears silver/gray.

My hope was the balance the pigment with the blueing stuff, and then gradually lift it all out (both the yellow and the violet) with honey, because actually, the hair most affected is white, and I'd like to have THAT back.

Does this all make sense?

Do you think I should go in the reverse order?

Thanks for all your help!

You are most welcome.

Your are right. The bluing only offsets the colour. It does not remove it.

I suggest 1 of 2 things first.

The easiest is honey and baby shampoo to lift the colour out. But that you may have to do often because of your pipes and the rust and baby shampoo is not that gentle although some people like it.

2nd, the honey lightening. You can do it as often as you like and it conditions too. It can give you back white hair.

There are a number of recipes choices. Honey and distilled water, honey and ground cardamom or ground cinnamon (both after patch testing), with or without coconut oil, preferable to evoo (you can use white coconut oil (no worry about added colour, although in a honey lightening treatment, that should not be a problem). The addition of oil can be for extra conditioning too. Just do not use too much, as either oil can be difficult to wash out of hair. You can CO out a honey lightening treatment.

Same recipe proportions, 2 tablespoons honey, 6 oz distilled water = 12 tablespoons, (I am basing this recipe amount, on what I see as the amount of hair you have) and your choice of honey lightening boosters. Whether or not you need the boosters depends on how much peroxide your honey produces.

Note: The hair needs to be kept very wet with the recipe, during the time that the treatment is on your hair (1 hour), but you do not need to use the full amount of the recipe. If the amount is too much, you can keep the rest in the fridge for about a day or so, no longer.

ktani
January 9th, 2009, 03:48 PM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
<A href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm" target=_blank>http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 06:15 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

Heidi_234
January 10th, 2009, 02:20 PM
Ktani, does the peroxide demises if I leave the mix sitting for too long?

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 02:51 PM
Ktani, does the peroxide demises if I leave the mix sitting for too long?

It shouldn't. How long are you takling about?

venividibxtchy
January 10th, 2009, 02:56 PM
I'm amused by the fact that I discovered your latest recipe by happenstance.

My hair loves honey, and I didn't want to mix it with conditioner, so I just mixed it with water and slopped it on. I actually noticed some very minor lightening.

Neat.

Heidi_234
January 10th, 2009, 03:02 PM
It shouldn't. How long are you talking about?
It was fairly theoretical question, although in some of my honey lightenings I did leave it over an hour (but under two). I remember you wrote that the hair must be kept very wet, possibly because the honey still produces more peroxide. On another occasion (can't remember where) you wrote about making a treatment to sit for longer period of time (I might be mistaken though). I wondered if keeping the mix sitting for longer can't hurt more than it can help, then I'll do it.

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 03:02 PM
I'm amused by the fact that I discovered your latest recipe by happenstance.

My hair loves honey, and I didn't want to mix it with conditioner, so I just mixed it with water and slopped it on. I actually noticed some very minor lightening.

Neat.

If you really want lightening, you are better off with distilled water and the new dilution, 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water or 3 oz, 2 to 12 or 6 oz, etc. Keep the hair very wet with the treatment, covered or misted, for 1 hour and there you go.

venividibxtchy
January 10th, 2009, 03:04 PM
If you really want lightening, you are better off with distilled water and the new dilution, 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water or 3 oz, 2 to 12 or 6 oz, etc. Keep the hair very wet with the treatment, covered or misted, for 1 hour and there you go.

I shall try this later, and report back with pictures. Thanks.

Last time, the water and honey separated, for obvious reasons. Should I be using a mixer, or something?

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 03:07 PM
I shall try this later, and report back with pictures. Thanks.

Last time, the water and honey separated, for obvious reasons. Should I be using a mixer, or something?

The solution should not separate. Just mix it with a spoon. No one has reported this before.

I look forward to hearing how it goes. You can also add honey lightening boosters. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370

Covering a honey lightening treatment.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=324104&postcount=2583

The latest innovation, thanks to Heidi 234, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out to much water and drip as much with this method.

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 03:25 PM
It was fairly theoretical question, although in some of my honey lightenings I did leave it over an hour (but under two). I remember you wrote that the hair must be kept very wet, possibly because the honey still produces more peroxide. On another occasion (can't remember where) you wrote about making a treatment to sit for longer period of time (I might be mistaken though). I wondered if keeping the mix sitting for longer can't hurt more than it can help, then I'll do it.

For some honeys, the peroxide level can peak and decline in so many hours but that has not been a reported problem with honey lightening. It varies with the honey.

I do not recommend keeping a batch prepared (refridgerated), for longer than a day or so.

You can let a recipe sit to generate peroxide, then apply it and leave it on the hair for 1 hour (the recommended time per treatment). Some people leave it on longer than that but it is not necessary to do that, IMO.

A honey may still produce peroxide after 2 hours but 1 hour per treatment (on the hair) has been reported to be sufficient.

Heidi_234
January 10th, 2009, 03:34 PM
For some honeys, th peroxide level can peak and decline in so many hours but that has not been a reported problem with honey lighening. It varies with the honey.

I do not recommend keeping a batch prepared (refridgerated, for longer than a day or so.

You can let a recipe sit to generate peroxide, then apply it and leave it on the hair for 1 hour (the recommended time per treatment). Some people leave it on longer than that but it is not necessary to do that, IMO.

A honey may still produce peroxide after 2 hours but 1 hour per treatment (on the hair) has been reported to be sufficient.
I know the recommended times by heart. :) You said that with another brand of honey I might get better results, but when I looked for another honey they were all one source honeys or bright color or both. So if there's no harm in waiting a little longer, maybe that will do for the honey.
Also, in one of your researches there was said that production was best at 30%-40% honey consistency. So when I'll dip my hair into that mix I'll surely mess up the pH anyway, could it help to add more honey (after the 1 hour wait for peroxide release, of course)?

P.S. Oh, I'm so thrilled at my little lycra swim cap contribution to the thread. :D

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 03:46 PM
I know the recommended times by heart. :) 1. You said that with another brand of honey I might get better results, but when I looked for another honey they were all one source honeys or bright color or both. So if there's no harm in waiting a little longer, maybe that will do for the honey.

Also, in 2. one of your researches there was said that production was best at 30&#37;-40% honey consistency. So when I'll dip my hair into that mix I'll surely mess up the pH anyway, could it help to add more honey (after the 1 hour wait for peroxide release, of course)?

3. P.S. Oh, I'm so thrilled at my little lycra swim cap contribution to the thread. :D

Ok in order, lol.

1. Did you check out the one source honeys against the Successful Honeys List? Adding extra time may help but at some point I suggest trying a new honey, if it does not. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

2. The study you are referring to had the solutions at these concentrations buffered and pH adjusted to pH 6, with chemicals that I do not recommend be used at home. If you pH test a honey and find it to be 6, you can try to use it at a lower dilution. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than that. Dipping your hair into a recipe has nothing to do with the concentration of the solution. You do not need to add anything or do anything else (or you could mess up the dilution).

3. I am glad that you are so thrilled. I will add your innovation to the recommendations.

Heidi_234
January 10th, 2009, 04:05 PM
Ok in order, lol.

1. Did you check out the one source honeys against the Successful Honeys List? Adding extra time may help but at some point I suggest trying a new honey, if it does not. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

2. The study you are referring to had the solutions at these concentrations buffered and pH adjusted to pH 6, with chemicals that I do not recommend be used at home. If you pH test a honey and find it to be 6, you can try to use it at a lower dilution. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than that. Dipping your hair into a recipe has nothing to do with the concentration of the solution. You do not need to add anything or do anything else (or you could mess up the dilution).

3. I am glad that you are so thrilled. I will add your innovation to the recommendations.
Thanks, I'm just shooting in the dark I suppose. I'll try to find out what are the pH of the honey I have (I sent a couple of emails already), maybe that would help. Thanks.

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 04:15 PM
Thanks, I'm just shooting in the dark I suppose. I'll try to find out what are the pH of the honey I have (I sent a couple of emails already), maybe that would help. Thanks.

You are inquisitive and interested. I think that is great! And you are most welcome. I added your innovation to all recommendation posts and the Honey Article. Thank you.

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 04:21 PM
I'll try to find out what are the pH of the honey I have (I sent a couple of emails already), maybe that would help. Thanks.

The pH of the honey will vary with the dilution used. You can try to test the pH of your honey at 30&#37; and 40% concentrations with distilled water.

Avalonna
January 10th, 2009, 04:31 PM
I did my first-ever honey treatment today on my hennaed hair. I used 1.5 cups distilled water, 4 Tbs local honey (two different kinds mixed), 2 Tbs EVOO, and 1 Tbs cardamum. It was harder to apply than I thought it would be! My DH thought my hair looks lighter and brighter than before, but I'm not sure if anything has changed. I think I'll do it a couple more times and see what happens. I'll post before & after pictures if I see a noticeable difference.

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 04:37 PM
I did my first-ever honey treatment today on my hennaed hair. I used 1.5 cups distilled water, 4 Tbs local honey (two different kinds mixed), 2 Tbs EVOO, and 1 Tbs cardamum. It was harder to apply than I thought it would be! My DH thought my hair looks lighter and brighter than before, but I'm not sure if anything has changed. I think I'll do it a couple more times and see what happens. I'll post before & after pictures if I see a noticeable difference.

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

Your recipe sounds great. I would lower the the amount of EVOO by 1 tablespoon and increase the ground cardamom by 1, as long as you have not had irritation from the spice.

Feedback from those around you like your DH, is an excellent way IMO, to gauge whether on not you achieved any lightening.

I look forward to hearing more from you, hopefully with pictures.

Avalonna
January 10th, 2009, 04:42 PM
Thanks for the advice, ktani! And thanks for all the work you have put into this exhaustive thread. My hair has darkened considerably from several years of henna use, and I'm hoping to get it a bit lighter. I'll try it again with less oil and more cardamum.

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 04:45 PM
Thanks for the advice, ktani! And thanks for all the work you have put into this exhaustive thread. My hair has darkened considerably from several years of henna use, and I'm hoping to get it a bit lighter. I'll try it again with less oil and more cardamum.

You are most welcome and thank you. If you have any questions or run into any problems, please post and I will do my best to help.

ole gray mare
January 10th, 2009, 07:39 PM
I'm back to report, with photos. I took this from my blog, today's post. (To refresh memories, I did a lemonade KoolAid technique to attempt to remove rust from my hair, which is discoloring it an unwanted shade of yellow. At least that's what I think is doing it. In any case, the Koolaid remedy is ill-advised...it only made my hair more yellow...virtually blonde.

Here is my update, with progress photos. I think the honey has helped, ever so slightly. I will continue with honey/water treatments and use coconut oil too.

I'm attempting to go about this very scientifically. After all, it was my love of hard science that led me to the KoolAid experiment in the first place.



Photos below, separated into three stages:



Stage 1: Yellowing from rust, which led me to "research" on the interwebs :silly:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09008-1.jpg





Stage 2: After the koolaid experiment, which just made my hair more yellow from top to bottom of my canopy. (Also, my hair had been oiled for two consecutive days when this photo was taken.)

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09014-1.jpg


http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09013-1.jpg


http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09012-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09011-1.jpg



Stage 3: After first attempt at lightening with honey/baby shampoo mixture, followed by bluing shampoo and extended bluing conditioner (Shiny Silver), also followed by chelating shampoo and biolage balm conditioner. My hair and I were exhausted by this time! It's almost imperceptible, but I do think it looks a little lighter. (Of course, it's not oiled here either.) And yes, I changed my top midway through these photos.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09015-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09017-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09016-1.jpg

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 08:06 PM
I'm back to report, with photos. I took this from my blog, today's post. (To refresh memories, I did a lemonade KoolAid technique to attempt to remove rust from my hair, which is discoloring it an unwanted shade of yellow. At least that's what I think is doing it. In any case, the Koolaid remedy is ill-advised...it only made my hair more yellow...virtually blonde.

Here is my update, with progress photos. I think the honey has helped, ever so slightly. I will continue with honey/water treatments and use coconut oil too.

I'm attempting to go about this very scientifically. After all, it was my love of hard science that led me to the KoolAid experiment in the first place.



Photos below, separated into three stages:



Stage 1: Yellowing from rust, which led me to "research" on the interwebs :silly:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09008-1.jpg





Stage 2: After the koolaid experiment, which just made my hair more yellow from top to bottom of my canopy. (Also, my hair had been oiled for two consecutive days when this photo was taken.)

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09014-1.jpg


http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09013-1.jpg


http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09012-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09011-1.jpg



Stage 3: After first attempt at lightening with honey/baby shampoo mixture, followed by bluing shampoo and extended bluing conditioner (Shiny Silver), also followed by chelating shampoo and biolage balm conditioner. My hair and I were exhausted by this time! It's almost imperceptible, but I do think it looks a little lighter. (Of course, it's not oiled here either.) And yes, I changed my top midway through these photos.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09015-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09017-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09016-1.jpg

Thank you for the update and the pictures. How does your hair feel?

It definitely looks lighter to me. So the honey and baby shampoo helped. Great!

To take it further, I suggest trying honey and distilled water, (you should have the links), and 2 tablespoons ground cardamom (after patch testing) with 1 tablespoon coconut oil or EVOO. The post in my siggy has everything you need, if you did not keep the links from my reply to your last post and/or you cannot find my reply to your last post, lol.

ole gray mare
January 10th, 2009, 08:18 PM
Thank you for the update and the pictures. How does your hair feel?

It definitely looks lighter to me. So the honey and baby shampoo helped. Great!

To take it further, I suggest trying honey and distilled water, (you should have the links), and 2 tablespoons ground cardamom (after patch testing) with 1 tablespoon coconut oil or EVOO. The post in my siggy has everything you need, if you did not keep the links from my reply to your last post and/or you cannot find my reply to your last post, lol.

Thanks, Ktani.

My hair feels fine. It feels full and fluffy and slightly coarse. It looks shiny and I'm lucky that it was already in good condition. I've already oiled it again.

The whole process included three showers and a few hours. My scalp is kind of worn out. So the plan is to oil it for the next couple of days and then do a honey/water treatment. I may throw in the cardamom if I remember to pick some up at the store tomorrow!

I will stick with the honey treatments and leave the bluing shampoo/conditioner alone for now. I have been pushing my luck with that, and I feel safer with the honey. It is more conservative.

ktani
January 10th, 2009, 08:28 PM
Thanks, Ktani.

My hair feels fine. It feels full and fluffy and slightly coarse. It looks shiny and I'm lucky that it was already in good condition. I've already oiled it again.

The whole process included three showers and a few hours. My scalp is kind of worn out. So the plan is to oil it for the next couple of days and then do a honey/water treatment. I may throw in the cardamom if I remember to pick some up at the store tomorrow!

I will stick with the honey treatments and leave the bluing shampoo/conditioner alone for now. I have been pushing my luck with that, and I feel safer with the honey. It is more conservative.

I must say that I rather like the blonde, not for you for me, lol but I will stay with catnip, thanks, lol.

I think that if you have no problem with it, the ground cardamom and oil are great boosters to help push the lightening further, even if you have a great honey peroxide producer.

Rest up, take care, good luck and I am here if you need me to help. Think of questions for things that you are unsure of before you attempt the honey lightening. It will be less stressful that way.

I am happy for you that your hair has not suffered through this.

ktani
January 11th, 2009, 10:39 AM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

Ninika
January 11th, 2009, 11:32 AM
ktani, let me preface this by saying how awsome this thread is. Thank you so much for all the effort you are putting into this and all the knowledge you have been accumulating here. :bowtome:

Now for my question: I just used honey 1:4 with distilled wateron my hair and I have some left in the mister. Can I use this, say, in a few days or will the mixture be useless by then?

BTW, my hair is still drying, but I will post results later if I can.

ktani
January 11th, 2009, 11:36 AM
ktani, let me preface this by saying how awsome this thread is. Thank you so much for all the effort you are putting into this and all the knowledge you have been accumulating here. :bowtome:

Now for my question: I just used honey 1:4 with distilled wateron my hair and I have some left in the mister. Can I use this, say, in a few days or will the mixture be useless by then?

BTW, my hair is still drying, but I will post results later if I can.

You are most welcome. I am glad that you are enjoying the thread. I look forward to your report.

I no longer use 4 to 1 as the description for the dilution because it needs to be by weight to be correct. It technically is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, for the basic recipe amount.

As to your mister, refridgerate what is left, for no longer than a day or so.

CrystalStar
January 11th, 2009, 12:06 PM
HI, I'm kinda new here, so I don't really know what I can expect from treatments like this, but I was wondering before I try anything is it possible the Honey treatments could lighten my medium/light brown roots to a blonde colour? Thank you loads! =)

ktani
January 11th, 2009, 12:12 PM
HI, I'm kinda new here, so I don't really know what I can expect from treatments like this, but I was wondering before I try anything is it possible the Honey treatments could lighten my medium/light brown roots to a blonde colour? Thank you loads! =)

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

I cannot predict results but because of questions on hair colour, I did catagorize results.

Honey lightening on medium shades of hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227352&postcount=1899

ktani
January 11th, 2009, 12:17 PM
How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening, catagorized by hair colour
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ljkforu
January 11th, 2009, 06:49 PM
Originally Posted by ljkforu
Ktani, after 2 applications I got my ends to match the rest of my hair. I think my ratio was really like 1 oz fireweed honey to 3 oz water and the spices and oil. I left it on for several hours (3ish) each time. Mom said today that I'm there and to stop or I might start to go toward orange. The ends are a nice chocolate color instead of shocking black. There is a hint of the henna but not too much. The hair is not crisp, I washed well with DW and then conditioned with V05. I was sleepy and forgot the acid rinse. Hair feels great!

In Mom's humble opinion it would be fantastic to remove any tint of beige/pink or blue if you screw up on bleached blond hair. My mom is so silly, she bleaches her hair even though she is 64 and only has 30 percent white in her black/brown hair. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktani
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljkforu
Hi, I used a 1 to 4 water to fireweed honey mixed with a tablespoon of freshly ground cardamom and 1 tsp of cinnamon. Oh, and 1 tsp of coconut oil.

I applied to just the last 6-8 inches of my hair that have Natural Instincts soft black on them that hasn't faded since its application at the roots (lol). The honey treatment took out a fair amount of the day and made the hair match with my henna indigo katam. I'm doing the second treatment tonight and I think I will be satisfied. I'm saturating the ends and putting in a dollar store plastic shower cap (no heat). IMHO probably most commercial dyes can be softened significantly with honey lightening (not removed).

honey lightening has removed commercial dye but it takes time and more that one treatment.

The ratio is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water (4to1 by weight). you can increase both the cardamom to 2 tablespoons and the oil to 1 tablespoon if you use 2 to 12 for the honey to distilled water.


Your recipe is correct. 1 Tablespoon is .75 oz x 4 = 3 for the water.

Please post in the Honey thread to help others. This is a great result. Well done! Did you use distilled water. It is the best choice. -- no just tap water I didn't have distilled and didn't want to wait.

ktani
January 11th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by ljkforu
Ktani, after 2 applications I got my ends to match the rest of my hair. I think my ratio was really like 1 oz fireweed honey to 3 oz water and the spices and oil. I left it on for several hours (3ish) each time. Mom said today that I'm there and to stop or I might start to go toward orange. The ends are a nice chocolate color instead of shocking black. There is a hint of the henna but not too much. The hair is not crisp, I washed well with DW and then conditioned with V05. I was sleepy and forgot the acid rinse. Hair feels great!

In Mom's humble opinion it would be fantastic to remove any tint of beige/pink or blue if you screw up on bleached blond hair. My mom is so silly, she bleaches her hair even though she is 64 and only has 30 percent white in her black/brown hair. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktani
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljkforu
Hi, I used a 1 to 4 water to fireweed honey mixed with a tablespoon of freshly ground cardamom and 1 tsp of cinnamon. Oh, and 1 tsp of coconut oil.

I applied to just the last 6-8 inches of my hair that have Natural Instincts soft black on them that hasn't faded since its application at the roots (lol). The honey treatment took out a fair amount of the day and made the hair match with my henna indigo katam. I'm doing the second treatment tonight and I think I will be satisfied. I'm saturating the ends and putting in a dollar store plastic shower cap (no heat). IMHO probably most commercial dyes can be softened significantly with honey lightening (not removed).

honey lightening has removed commercial dye but it takes time and more that one treatment.

The ratio is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water (4to1 by weight). you can increase both the cardamom to 2 tablespoons and the oil to 1 tablespoon if you use 2 to 12 for the honey to distilled water.


Your recipe is correct. 1 Tablespoon is .75 oz x 4 = 3 for the water.

Please post in the Honey thread to help others. This is a great result. Well done! Did you use distilled water. It is the best choice. -- no just tap water I didn't have distilled and didn't want to wait.

Thank you so much for posting. Your dilution is 1 to 4 by weight, which is the equivalent to 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons water.

You obviously have good tap water and a great honey but if you do continue, try distilled water.

ktani
January 12th, 2009, 05:57 AM
The Successful Honeys List has been updated to include Ljkforu,'s Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey, under U.S. honeys.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
January 12th, 2009, 07:24 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

Heidi_234
January 12th, 2009, 07:37 AM
I mixed my honey. I'm going to do the dipping method, hopefully I'll have decent pictures to share this time.

ktani
January 12th, 2009, 07:41 AM
I mixed my honey. I'm going to do the dipping method, hopefully I'll have decent pictures to share this time.

I look forward to your next report.

ktani
January 12th, 2009, 11:50 AM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded). Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
January 12th, 2009, 04:48 PM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).


".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 06:15 AM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 07:29 AM
Okey then,
This was my 6th honey lightening (if you count the two back to back I did last time as separate one).
I used 2 tb of honey and 6 oz of distilled water. 2 tb of cardamom and 1 tb of EVOO. I let it sit of an hour and half, and clarified my hair before dipping it into the mix.
The dipping method wasn't as comfortable as I pictured it. I should have used big cup with a handle instead of a bowl. But I found it nicer than putting it all on my head and struggling with a swim cap. Of course, the roots didn't get any for this but I'm fine with that.
The picture doesn't look to convincing. Do you think it's not working well for me after all?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2075&pictureid=29124

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 07:40 AM
Okey then,
This was my 6th honey lightening (if you count the two back to back I did last time as separate one).
I used 2 tb of honey and 6 oz of distilled water. 2 tb of cardamom and 1 tb of EVOO. I let it sit of an hour and half, and clarified my hair before dipping it into the mix.
The dipping method wasn't as comfortable as I pictured it. I should have used big cup with a handle instead of a bowl. But I found it nicer than putting it all on my head and struggling with a swim cap. Of course, the roots didn't get any for this but I'm fine with that.
The picture doesn't look to convincing. Do you think it's not working well for me after all?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2075&pictureid=29124

These pictures show some lightening but not that much, IMO.

What does the difference look like in real light, different lighting?
It may be time for a new honey.

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 07:54 AM
These pictures show some lightening but not that much, IMO.

What does the difference look like in real light, different lighting?
It may be time for a new honey.
It's hard to tell because I have nothing to compare to. I feel it looks more brown now, but it's just a feeling.
All honeys I saw were single sourced. I don't here honeys from your list of successful honeys. Is there any sort of single sourced honey that can be particularly good? I saw one (don't remember the source) it was very very dark of a color, I know it's not a guarantee for more peroxide, but could it be better?

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 07:58 AM
It's hard to tell because I have nothing to compare to. I feel it looks more brown now, but it's just a feeling.
All honeys I saw were single sourced. I don't here honeys from your list of successful honeys. Is there any sort of single sourced honey that can be particularly good? I saw one (don't remember the source) it was very very dark of a color, I know it's not a guarantee for more peroxide, but could it be better?

Excellent results have been reported with Jarrah honey.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening, Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?

gallows gallery - on the condition of her hair after 6 honey lightening treatments, the new dilution, Jarrah honey
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336261&postcount=2637

gallows gallery earlier pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=336307&postcount=2638

gallows gallery new pics, dyed black hair over henna, the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 08:06 AM
Ktani, non of the brands listed in the successful honey list are sold here.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 08:08 AM
Ktani, non of the brands listed in the successful honey list are sold here.

You can order Jarrah honey through vendors in this link.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 08:22 AM
You can order Jarrah honey through vendors in this link.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

I saw that, but I'm not from the US, shipping is very expensive for me. I usually never order anything from abroad. :( I'm not going to order honey, I'd rather buy another jar and see if it works better, honey can still be used for other things here.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 08:45 AM
I saw that, but I'm not from the US, shipping is very expensive for me. I usually never order anything from abroad. :( I'm not going to order honey, I'd rather buy another jar and see if it works better, honey can still be used for other things here.

I understand completely.

I just added fireweed honey to the Successful Honeys List, for U.S. honeys. Maybe that will help.

Naturally Preferred Fireweed honey (Fred Meyer and Kroger stores)

If you cannot find a blend, avoid the honeys in the list.

"If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 08:50 AM
Thanks, I'll avoid those types.
Will mixing two one source honeys might boost the peroxide production?
I'm trying to find local articles on honey and peroxide maybe someone would point out a local brand with higher peroxide production.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 09:02 AM
Thanks, I'll avoid those types.
Will mixing two one source honeys might boost the peroxide production?
I'm trying to find local articles on honey and peroxide maybe someone would point out a local brand with higher peroxide production.

Only if one produced more than the other. That is the idea of using a blend of dark coloured honeys. You increase the odds.

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 09:07 AM
Only if one produced more than the other. That is the idea of using a blend of dark coloured honeys. You increase the odds.
Oh, now I understand. I thought I read somewhere that the actual mixing boosts the peroxide production, but if there no such reaction, then of course it doesn't make sense.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 09:12 AM
Oh, now I understand. I thought I read somewhere that the actual mixing boosts the peroxide production, but if there no such reaction, then of course it doesn't make sense.

You may have been confused by a question about the honey lightening boosters. A while back, someone did not realize that they can add extra peroxide to a recipe and can boost the peroxide level of a treatment.

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 09:23 AM
You may have been confused by a question about the honey lightening boosters. A while back, someone did not realize that they can add extra peroxide to a recipe and can boost the peroxide level of a treatment.
Wait, I just thought about it. I have H2O2 for cleaning wounds at home, why can't I add it to the mix, and unsure i do have enough peroxide to lighten my hair more effectively?
About the mixing honey thing, I read it while searching for local high peroxide value local honeys. It said something about mixing different honeys. Can't find it now. Nevermind.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 09:39 AM
Wait, I just thought about it. I have H2O2 for cleaning wounds at home, why can't I add it to the mix, and unsure i do have enough peroxide to lighten my hair more effectively?

I discuss that here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=280629&postcount=2277

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 09:51 AM
Conventional peroxide (3&#37; or 10 volume) is about 1000 stronger than the peroxide produced by most honeys, http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html.

Adding it to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

Using coconut oil and argan oil (it is untried but recommended), may help potect hair from conventional peroxide and bleach and coconut oil has been reported to do so, used as a pre treatment.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 09:53 AM
I discuss that here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=280629&postcount=2277
I read it, but I wasn't sure. The peroxide is there, and the flavonoids are there. If the flavonoids needed to be used as a pre-treatment, then honey lightening is only safe because it got very little peroxide that can do very little harm, and some of it isn't harmful becuase the flavonoids chelate the harmful agents. But I don't think that's the way it works.
Otherwise, if my honey produces very little peroxide then it also doesn't produce much flavonoids either, or does it? If the amount of flavonoid is independtet of the amount of the peroxide, why can't I add peroxide to make up for the fact that my honey doesn't produce enough on it's own? Or, I can soak my hair with it for a given amount of time (half an hour, hour) and then add that H2O2 that I have and soak my hair again for given amount of time.
Tell me if I'm missing something, because I'm basing my logic on very few variables and there's probably more to it.

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 09:57 AM
Conventional peroxide (3% or 10 volume) is about 1000 stronger than the peroxide produced by most honeys, http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html.

Adding it to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

Using coconut oil and argan oil (it is untried but recommended), may help potect hair from conventional peroxide and bleach and coconut oil has been reported to do so, used as a pre treatment.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495
Oh there you go. I have 3% at home. So one drop of it could do all the difference in the world in terms of color?

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 10:03 AM
I read it, but I wasn't sure. The peroxide is there, and the flavonoids are there. If the flavonoids needed to be used as a pre-treatment, then honey lightening is only safe because it got very little peroxide that can do very little harm, and some of it isn't harmful becuase the flavonoids chelate the harmful agents. But I don't think that's the way it works.
Otherwise, if my honey produces very little peroxide then it also doesn't produce much flavonoids either, or does it? If the amount of flavonoid is independtet of the amount of the peroxide, why can't I add peroxide to make up for the fact that my honey doesn't produce enough on it's own? Or, I can soak my hair with it for a given amount of time (half an hour, hour) and then add that H2O2 that I have and soak my hair again for given amount of time.
Tell me if I'm missing something, because I'm basing my logic on very few variables and there's probably more to it.

In the P&G research, (see the thread), it states that the chelants (in honey lightening they are the flavonoids) can be used as a pre treatment or formulated into the peroxide/bleach itself. If formulated into the peroxide/bleach product, they would need to be calulated for that.

In other words, the amount of flavonoids in honey lightening ingredients are enough to deal with the peroxide produced (based on the reports to date of no hair damage) but there would not be enough to deal with a solution that is much stronger, added to a recipe.

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 10:18 AM
I can't believe I'm on verge of resorting to hydrogen peroxide. I googled it fast, and there are care tips that suggest buy that 3&#37; or even 6%, fill it in a spray bottle, apply to the hair and just let it air dry. Just like that. And people are reporting back how it worked for them. What an incredible amount of damage!
I'm sure that adding a drop if it into the mix can't be that bad, or can it?

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 10:24 AM
I can't believe I'm on verge of resorting to hydrogen peroxide. I googled it fast, and there are care tips that suggest buy that 3&#37; or even 6%, fill it in a spray bottle, apply to the hair and just let it air dry. Just like that. And people are reporting back how it worked for them. What an incredible amount of damage!
I'm sure that adding a drop if it into the mix can't be that bad, or can it?

I would not do it that way.

Read the peroxide thread, first post. People have reported no damage by using coconut oil as a pre treatment with conventional hair colour applied over it and even bleach and then conventional hair colour, in 1 case, 2 separate times.

That IMO, is a better bet that playing with a honey lightening treatment recipe. Argan oil looks very promising too. See the last page.

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 10:33 AM
I would not do it that way.

Read the peroxide thread, first post. People have reported no damage by using coconut oil as a pre treatment with conventional hair colour applied over it and even bleach and then conventional hair colour, in 1 case, 2 separate times.

That IMO, is a better bet that playing with a honey lightening treatment recipe. Argan oil looks very promising too. See the last page.
I'm following that thread very very closely. I'm most certainly won't use hydrogen peroxide this way I described, just pointed out how relatively little damage our hair is subjected when using the methods here.
I'm not sure right now what should I do. I need to think about it. At the end of the day, I want my hair long, so I need it healthy. The color is probably a second priority.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 10:40 AM
I'm following that thread very very closely. I'm most certainly won't use hydrogen peroxide this way I described, just pointed out how relatively little damage our hair is subjected when using the methods here.
I'm not sure right now what should I do. I need to think about it. At the end of the day, I want my hair long, so I need it healthy. The color is probably a second priority.

Right now, you are seeing results with honey lightening. It depends on how light that you want to go. The peroxide thread is for people who use conventional hair colour primarily, or those who want to experiment with conventional peroxide/bleach. They can go lighter, using those methods. No damage has been reported using coconut oil as a pre treatment, so far. I would and have suggested not going hog wild with peroxide or bleach, in any case. But the results so far, are very exciting, IMO.

I do not get the feeling that you are ready to go that route and IMO, unless you want a lot of lightening, it is not necessary.

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 10:50 AM
Right now, you are seeing results with honey lightening. It depends on how light that you want to go. The peroxide thread is for people who use conventional hair colour primarily, or those who want to experiment with conventional peroxide/bleach. They can go lighter, using those methods. No damage has been reported using coconut oil as a pre treatment, so far. I would and have suggested not going hog wild with peroxide or bleach, in any case. But the results so far, are very exciting, IMO.

I do not get the feeling that you are ready to go that route and IMO, unless you want a lot of lightening, it is not necessary.
That's the thing, I'm not sure if there lightening. I couldn't get it show on pictures that for sure. Moreover, I have a hairball I used once to try henna and still laying around. If I compare against my hair, there isn't much of a difference/change. I do need my hair much lighter, and right now it doesn't seem to go anywhere.
The thing about the reports from that thread is that the dyeing might not make the hair feel bad right after, even without the coconut and argan oils. I'm actually willing to test the hydrogen peroxide on the tips of my bangs maybe, with the oils applied like you recommend.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 11:05 AM
That's the thing, I'm not sure if there lightening. I couldn't get it show on pictures that for sure. Moreover, I have a hairball I used once to try henna and still laying around. If I compare against my hair, there isn't much of a difference/change. I do need my hair much lighter, and right now it doesn't seem to go anywhere.
The thing about the reports from that thread is that the dyeing might not make the hair feel bad right after, even without the coconut and argan oils. I'm actually willing to test the hydrogen peroxide on the tips of my bangs maybe, with the oils applied like you recommend.

I have noticed some lightening in your pictures but I understand where you are coming from.

I still think that you may be able to achieve some of the lightening that you want with different honeys.

However, if you do choose to use peroxide, just take it slowly, and use the oils as a pre treatment, IMO, as you suggest.

Bianca got excellent results but read her posts thoroughly and her thread. She chose bleach to remove henna though.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=378317&postcount=111

Her thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=16279

Heidi_234
January 13th, 2009, 11:19 AM
I have noticed some lightening in your pictures but I understand where you are coming from.

I still think that you may be able to achieve some of the lightening that you want with different honeys.

However, if you do choose to use peroxide, just take it slowly, and use the oils as a pre treatment, IMO, as you suggest.

Bianca got excellent results but read her posts thoroughly and her thread. She chose bleach to remove henna though.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=378317&postcount=111

Her thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=16279
Thanks alot. :flowers:
Will try and will do. And of course I'll keep you posted. :flower:

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 11:44 AM
Thanks alot. :flowers:
Will try and will do. And of course I'll keep you posted. :flower:

My pleasure!

Good luck!

amaiaisabella
January 13th, 2009, 05:40 PM
ktani, based on your recommendation, I am posting to ask my questions and record my experience :)

I just recolored over henna with a dark box dye, and while it is very nice on the top portion of my hair, the last 3 inches or so came out a bit too dark. I am hoping to lighten the color just a bit, though lighter is always welcome as I like change :) I am going to experiment with a mixture of water, honey, and cinammon. I don't have a particular brand of honey, I believe it is the grocery store brand.

I will post pictures afterwards, as I can use this to test out my new camera. One question, though, how long do you leave the mixture on your hair? And am I correct in thinking honey should be the majority ingredient?

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 05:49 PM
ktani, based on your recommendation, I am posting to ask my questions and record my experience :)

I just recolored over henna with a dark box dye, and while it is very nice on the top portion of my hair, the last 3 inches or so came out a bit too dark. I am hoping to lighten the color just a bit, though lighter is always welcome as I like change :) I am going to experiment with a mixture of water, honey, and cinammon. I don't have a particular brand of honey, I believe it is the grocery store brand.

I will post pictures afterwards, as I can use this to test out my new camera. One question, though, how long do you leave the mixture on your hair? And am I correct in thinking honey should be the majority ingredient?

No, the main ingredient in terms of concentration, is distilled water.

Here is the 1st post of this thread, which has topics you can look at as well as the dilution measurements and the links on choosing a honey.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

You may want to try baby shampoo with honey to remove some of the dye before you try honey lightening. You can do that just on the area that you want lighter. That may work. Just mix the 2 together, leave it on for a bit and wash out.

Honey lightening can and has lightened; conventionally coloured hair, hennaed hair, henndigo, and virgin hair colour.

The recommended treatment time on the hair, is 1 hour.

I look forward to your update, regardless of which method you choose, honey and baby shampoo or honey lightening.

amaiaisabella
January 13th, 2009, 06:22 PM
Thank you, I found the dilution measurements. Does the water have to be distilled, or can you use bottled water?

I've already used shampoo to strip a bit of the color, which worked, but I'd like a little lighter, thus the honey :) I figured the first time would have to be the most "heavy duty" mixture, so I am going to add the cinammon. Based on your warnings not to use it too often, the next mixtures would just be water and honey.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 06:29 PM
Thank you, I found the dilution measurements. Does the water have to be distilled, or can you use bottled water?

I've already used shampoo to strip a bit of the color, which worked, but I'd like a little lighter, thus the honey :) I figured the first time would have to be the most "heavy duty" mixture, so I am going to add the cinammon. Based on your warnings not to use it too often, the next mixtures would just be water and honey.

Distilled water is recommeded for 2 reasons, its pH and lack of minerals. Bottled water contains minerals that can deplete recipe peroxide levels. I am unsure of its pH. That no doubt varies.

You can use ground cardamom instead of ground cinnamon, just patch test both.

amaiaisabella
January 13th, 2009, 06:44 PM
I would assume tap water has the same problem. Straight honey seems like it would be too sticky and take forever to get out of your hair, so does the distilled water act as a sort of "slip" agent?

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 06:51 PM
I would assume tap water has the same problem. Straight honey seems like it would be too sticky and take forever to get out of your hair, so does the distilled water act as a sort of "slip" agent?

Straight honey does not produce peroxide. Honey produces peroxide when it is diluted with a liquid that contains water. Distilled water at the recommended dilution, raises the pH of the honey to its optimum (pH 6), or close, to produce the most peroxide.

amaiaisabella
January 13th, 2009, 07:02 PM
And this is why you are the reigning queen of honey :) I would never have guessed that!

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 07:10 PM
And this is why you are the reigning queen of honey :) I would never have guessed that!

You are most kind. Thank you.

Avalonna
January 13th, 2009, 09:04 PM
Is there an easy way to apply the honey mix? I thought it would be so much easier than henna, but I found it more difficult. I have tried it twice.

The first time I stood up at the bathroom sink and tried squirting it on with a turkey baster. Most of the mix slid down my hair without saturating it. I ended up wetting a comb over and over again and combing it through, which worked okay, but I made a mess of my countertop!

The second time, I put a big mixing bowl in the tub, put my head over/in the bowl, and had my very patient DH pour the mix over my hair into the bowl. I dunked as much of my hair as I could into the bowl. This way was also very messy, but seemed to work better. We tried saran wrapping my head (many off-color jokes were made about wrapping me in saran wrap) and then putting a bag on my head, but my hair was so wet I was dripping sticky drips all over!

Neither technique was awful, but I was wondering if anyone had come up with an easier way. A spray bottle was mentioned, but wouldn't the spices and EVOO clog it up right away?

I will post results in the next couple of days. After the second treatment (yesterday), the oil was much harder to get out of my hair for some reason, and I went to work today looking like I hadn't washed my hair in weeks! Luckily I wear a hat all day at work (I'm an O.R. nurse). It was so oily I couldn't tell what color it was! Now it's still a little damp, so again I can't really judge the color. Tomorrow!

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 09:14 PM
Is there an easy way to apply the honey mix? I thought it would be so much easier than henna, but I found it more difficult. I have tried it twice.

The first time I stood up at the bathroom sink and tried squirting it on with a turkey baster. Most of the mix slid down my hair without saturating it. I ended up wetting a comb over and over again and combing it through, which worked okay, but I made a mess of my countertop!

The second time, I put a big mixing bowl in the tub, put my head over/in the bowl, and had my very patient DH pour the mix over my hair into the bowl. I dunked as much of my hair as I could into the bowl. This way was also very messy, but seemed to work better. We tried saran wrapping my head (many off-color jokes were made about wrapping me in saran wrap) and then putting a bag on my head, but my hair was so wet I was dripping sticky drips all over!

Neither technique was awful, but I was wondering if anyone had come up with an easier way. A spray bottle was mentioned, but wouldn't the spices and EVOO clog it up right away?

I will post results in the next couple of days. After the second treatment (yesterday), the oil was much harder to get out of my hair for some reason, and I went to work today looking like I hadn't washed my hair in weeks! Luckily I wear a hat all day at work (I'm an O.R. nurse). It was so oily I couldn't tell what color it was! Now it's still a little damp, so again I can't really judge the color. Tomorrow!

Yes, the spray bottle nozzle can get clogged. I am sorry to hear that it was so difficult for you. This may help.

"A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=324104&postcount=2583

ACWN
January 13th, 2009, 09:19 PM
Is there an easy way to apply the honey mix?

I have short hair, as my avatar thus shows.... and I'm not sure how well this would work for every one else... but I have found using a tinting brush (found at any beauty/salon supply store like Sally Beauty Supply) works REALLY well, especially at the roots.

Perhaps you could section your hair off - short though my hair may be, I do this - and get all the roots and everything close to your scalp coated well, then use a bowl and dunk the length of your hair into it. Wrap it up and before you straighten up, wrap a towel nice and snug around your NECK and let it drape over your shoulders. This'll keep the run off from going down your back. I also found that if you stuff toilet paper along your hairline (but not touching the hair of course), it'll keep your face nice and dry.


I also found that if I have dry spots or didnt seem to get enough on my length, a syringe with out the needle (obviously, lol) works really well and you get a little more control then a turkey baster. Just draw some into the syringe and keep your head tipped BACK while you carefully squirt the treatment where you need it. I also recommend having a towel around your neck when you do this to catch the run off.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 09:24 PM
I have short hair, as my avatar thus shows.... and I'm not sure how well this would work for every one else... but I have found using a tinting brush (found at any beauty/salon supply store like Sally Beauty Supply) works REALLY well, especially at the roots.

Perhaps you could section your hair off - short though my hair may be, I do this - and get all the roots and everything close to your scalp coated well, then use a bowl and dunk the length of your hair into it. Wrap it up and before you straighten up, wrap a towel nice and snug around your NECK and let it drape over your shoulders. This'll keep the run off from going down your back. I also found that if you stuff toilet paper along your hairline (but not touching the hair of course), it'll keep your face nice and dry.


I also found that if I have dry spots or didnt seem to get enough on my length, a syringe with out the needle (obviously, lol) works really well and you get a little more control then a turkey baster. Just draw some into the syringe and keep your head tipped BACK while you carefully squirt the treatment where you need it. I also recommend having a towel around your neck when you do this to catch the run off.

Thank you for helping out!

ACWN
January 13th, 2009, 09:29 PM
Welcome^_^

ole gray mare
January 13th, 2009, 10:19 PM
1/12/09

I did a honey lightening treatment last night. First, I washed my hair (which had been coconut oiled) with clarifying shampoo, rinsed with dilute vinegar rinse and then miracle water. Applied the following to wet hair: 1.5 cups distilled water, 4 T clover honey. Soaked the ends, used a pastry brush on the rest. Bundled it all up in a swim cap and let it sit for an hour or so. Rinsed out and did a CO with Suave toasted vanilla and sugar. The CO was overkill. Had to wash that out with diluted NG aloe shampoo, and then followed that with Biolage balm. All rinses were done with miracle water, and a couple of dilute white vinegar rinses in there too.

After I finally emerged from the shower, I put a little coconut oil/avg mixture on, and braided for bed.

I do believe it has helped! My golden hue looks lighter and brighter.

I will take and post photos later.

Make no mistake, there is plenty of yellow left. But I think it is looking better and it still feels quite healthy.

Me So Happy!!

I will continue with the honey treatments for the next few weeks.

ktani
January 13th, 2009, 10:22 PM
1/12/09

I did a honey lightening treatment last night. First, I washed my hair (which had been coconut oiled) with clarifying shampoo, rinsed with dilute vinegar rinse and then miracle water. Applied the following to wet hair: 1.5 cups distilled water, 4 T clover honey. Soaked the ends, used a pastry brush on the rest. Bundled it all up in a swim cap and let it sit for an hour or so. Rinsed out and did a CO with Suave toasted vanilla and sugar. The CO was overkill. Had to wash that out with diluted NG aloe shampoo, and then followed that with Biolage balm. All rinses were done with miracle water, and a couple of dilute white vinegar rinses in there too.

After I finally emerged from the shower, I put a little coconut oil/avg mixture on, and braided for bed.

I do believe it has helped! My golden hue looks lighter and brighter.

I will take and post photos later.

Make no mistake, there is plenty of yellow left. But I think it is looking better and it still feels quite healthy.

Me So Happy!!

I will continue with the honey treatments for the next few weeks.

Thank you so much for the update.

I am so glad that you are pleased and thank you for news on the condition of your hair.

Citric acid (Miracle water) is incompatible with peroxide. Rinse your hair really well after using it before honey lightening.

ole gray mare
January 13th, 2009, 11:00 PM
Citric acid (Miracle water) is incompatible with peroxide. Rinse your hair really well after using it before honey lightening.

Oh...good to know! Why is that? Is it hard on the hair, or does it make the honey less effective? What about dilute vinegar rinses?

ole gray mare
January 13th, 2009, 11:08 PM
Here are some progress photos with captions within

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09008-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09014-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09015-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09021-1.jpg

ktani
January 14th, 2009, 06:35 AM
Oh...good to know! Why is that? Is it hard on the hair, or does it make the honey less effective? What about dilute vinegar rinses?

No, the miracle water is fine for the hair. It may deplete peroxide levels. Just rinse it out well before honey lightening. A vinegar rinse is fine as an alternative but you should be ok with rinsing well.

ktani
January 14th, 2009, 06:39 AM
Here are some progress photos with captions within

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09008-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09014-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09015-1.jpg

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h180/katrinabee/hair09021-1.jpg

The honey lightening definitely helped according to your pictures. Wonderful!

Thank you so much for posting them.

What are you doing about your rusty water? Any plans on a water filter or method of controlling/eliminating the rust? It sounds like it is going to be an ongoing problem otherwise.

ole gray mare
January 14th, 2009, 10:18 AM
The honey lightening definitely helped according to your pictures. Wonderful!

Thank you so much for posting them.

What are you doing about your rusty water? Any plans on a water filter or method of controlling/eliminating the rust? It sounds like it is going to be an ongoing problem otherwise.

Yes, it really helped. I have a filtered shower head, but need to order a new filter. It is well past expired. My plan for dealing with the rust was to use Miracle water for rinses. Now I'll know to rinse with distilled before a honey treatment. I'm looking forward to results from the next one.

My hair color is definitely improving. What the pics don't show well is how much yellow remains. However, it is much better! Thank you!

ktani
January 14th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Yes, it really helped. I have a filtered shower head, but need to order a new filter. It is well past expired. My plan for dealing with the rust was to use Miracle water for rinses. Now I'll know to rinse with distilled before a honey treatment. I'm looking forward to results from the next one.

My hair color is definitely improving. What the pics don't show well is how much yellow remains. However, it is much better! Thank you!

The filter is an excellent idea. Look for one that reduces iron in particular.

You do not have to rinse with distilled water pre honey lightening, just rinse the miracle water out of your hair well, pre honey lightening, IMO.

RocketDog
January 14th, 2009, 11:55 AM
I've been slacking off on my honey lightening - I've been using honey in my deep-conditioining mixes, but I seem to notice more shine and manageability after doing a lightening soak. I think I'll do one tonight! I just got a new brand of honey that I am excited to try. It's from a local company, and I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but I plan to mix it with distilled water, cinnamon and cardamom like I did with the clover honey I was using before. I'll be sure to report back with results when I'm done!

ktani
January 14th, 2009, 11:59 AM
I've been slacking off on my honey lightening - I've been using honey in my deep-conditioining mixes, but I seem to notice more shine and manageability after doing a lightening soak. I think I'll do one tonight! I just got a new brand of honey that I am excited to try. It's from a local company, and I can't remember the name off the top of my head, but I plan to mix it with distilled water, cinnamon and cardamom like I did with the clover honey I was using before. I'll be sure to report back with results when I'm done!

Great!

I look forward to reading your update.

ACWN
January 14th, 2009, 07:39 PM
Sooooo... I did an experiment today, and the results are good enough to share!


I took some of my Conditioning Honey (the stuff I had thrown in the microwave) and mixed a heavy amount of it with my current conditioner.

I'd say... 2 parts honey to 1 part conditioner.

It took a lot of stirring, but eventually the honey and the conditioner mixed nicely.

Threw most of it into my hair after shampooing, so my hair was wet. I made sure to totally saturate my hair with the mixture and combed it through several times with my fingers.

I left it in my hair about.... eh.. 15-20 minutes maybe.. while I did my shower thang. Rinsed it out first with water, then with a bit of straight conditioner.


Results? My hair is SUPER soft and super, SUPER shiny. And surprisingly... fluffy. Not frizzy, but fluffy... like I took a blowdryer to it. Even my split ends are better!:cheese:

I know what I'll be doing from now on!

ktani
January 14th, 2009, 07:48 PM
Sooooo... I did an experiment today, and the results are good enough to share!


I took some of my Conditioning Honey (the stuff I had thrown in the microwave) and mixed a heavy amount of it with my current conditioner.

I'd say... 2 parts honey to 1 part conditioner.

It took a lot of stirring, but eventually the honey and the conditioner mixed nicely.

Threw most of it into my hair after shampooing, so my hair was wet. I made sure to totally saturate my hair with the mixture and combed it through several times with my fingers.

I left it in my hair about.... eh.. 15-20 minutes maybe.. while I did my shower thang. Rinsed it out first with water, then with a bit of straight conditioner.


Results? My hair is SUPER soft and super, SUPER shiny. And surprisingly... fluffy. Not frizzy, but fluffy... like I took a blowdryer to it. Even my split ends are better!:cheese:

I know what I'll be doing from now on!

Cool!

Thank you for sharing that. Honey and conditioner work very well for conditioning.

Avalonna
January 14th, 2009, 08:49 PM
I have short hair, as my avatar thus shows.... and I'm not sure how well this would work for every one else... but I have found using a tinting brush (found at any beauty/salon supply store like Sally Beauty Supply) works REALLY well, especially at the roots.

Perhaps you could section your hair off - short though my hair may be, I do this - and get all the roots and everything close to your scalp coated well, then use a bowl and dunk the length of your hair into it. Wrap it up and before you straighten up, wrap a towel nice and snug around your NECK and let it drape over your shoulders. This'll keep the run off from going down your back. I also found that if you stuff toilet paper along your hairline (but not touching the hair of course), it'll keep your face nice and dry.


I also found that if I have dry spots or didnt seem to get enough on my length, a syringe with out the needle (obviously, lol) works really well and you get a little more control then a turkey baster. Just draw some into the syringe and keep your head tipped BACK while you carefully squirt the treatment where you need it. I also recommend having a towel around your neck when you do this to catch the run off.

Thanks so much for for the tips! I'll try some of your advice next time.

A stupid question, but what can substitute for a tinting brush? I live in a very rural area and we don't have any beauty supply stores. Our "mall" has 8 stores, and it's an hour-and-a-half hour drive to a town with more stores. Even the Wal-Mart is 45 minutes away. Is there something similar I could buy at a drug store or hardware store?

ktani
January 14th, 2009, 08:54 PM
Thanks so much for for the tips! I'll try some of your advice next time.

A stupid question, but what can substitute for a tinting brush? I live in a very rural area and we don't have any beauty supply stores. Our "mall" has 8 stores, and it's an hour-and-a-half hour drive to a town with more stores. Even the Wal-Mart is 45 minutes away. Is there something similar I could buy at a drug store or hardware store?

Any small wide flat brush with flexible plastic bristles. People have used blush and basting brushes too but a small, stiffer paint brush may do, as well.

You want something that looks like this.
http://www.kingdombeauty.com/product/item.php?product_id=451

Or this
http://www.mysalon.biz/color-perm-essentials-71/color-combs-77/tint-brush-1124.html

They look like paint brushes to me, lol.

ACWN
January 14th, 2009, 08:55 PM
Thanks so much for for the tips! I'll try some of your advice next time.

A stupid question, but what can substitute for a tinting brush? I live in a very rural area and we don't have any beauty supply stores. Our "mall" has 8 stores, and it's an hour-and-a-half hour drive to a town with more stores. Even the Wal-Mart is 45 minutes away. Is there something similar I could buy at a drug store or hardware store?


Not a stupid question at all!

ktani says you can use a blush brush, a basting or pastry brush. I think maybe if you found a good paintbrush (something where the bristles WONT come out until its super old) about an inch and half to two inches wide... that would work wonderfully too. You would just have to make sure you wash it well every single time.



Lol, okay... apparently I need to get OFF your brain waves, ktani.

ktani
January 14th, 2009, 08:59 PM
Not a stupid question at all!

ktani says you can use a blush brush, a basting or pastry brush. I think maybe if you found a good paintbrush (something where the bristles WONT come out until its super old) about an inch and half to two inches wide... that would work wonderfully too. You would just have to make sure you wash it well every single time.



Lol, okay... apparently I need to get OFF your brain waves, ktani.

Great, practical minds, (think alike) lol.

ktani
January 14th, 2009, 09:08 PM
Not a stupid question at all!

You are right again.

No question is stupid, IMO. That is how we all learn.

RocketDog
January 15th, 2009, 12:04 AM
I tried using a synthetic-bristle paintbrush for application, but found it too messy with the runny water/honey mixture. I now use the 12oz bottle that my first batch of hair-only honey came home from the store in, with a small hole poked in the top of the applicator - it's just like a salon haircolor applicator bottle, and works marvelously! I can shoot the honey mixture right into the roots to soak them, and then I scrunch my length up and soak them the same way before twisting 'em up into a loose bun and covering with plastic wrap.

I've got another 40 minutes of my treatment left before I rinse out - I noticed that this honey is a lot thicker than the previous brand I was using, so it takes more work to mix it up with the water and cinnamon. I'll make a note of the brand when I rinse my hair, so I can pass it on. It's a local brand, but I bought it at Whole Foods so there's a chance it'll be available outside my area.

ktani
January 15th, 2009, 05:17 AM
I tried using a synthetic-bristle paintbrush for application, but found it too messy with the runny water/honey mixture. I now use the 12oz bottle that my first batch of hair-only honey came home from the store in, with a small hole poked in the top of the applicator - it's just like a salon haircolor applicator bottle, and works marvelously! I can shoot the honey mixture right into the roots to soak them, and then I scrunch my length up and soak them the same way before twisting 'em up into a loose bun and covering with plastic wrap.

I've got another 40 minutes of my treatment left before I rinse out - I noticed that this honey is a lot thicker than the previous brand I was using, so it takes more work to mix it up with the water and cinnamon. I'll make a note of the brand when I rinse my hair, so I can pass it on. It's a local brand, but I bought it at Whole Foods so there's a chance it'll be available outside my area.

Thank you for helping out.

I look forward to reading your newest report.

ktani
January 15th, 2009, 09:35 PM
I think that honey lightening recipes with ground (powdered) cinnamon are safe to use but I would alternate them with other recipes, not to get too much coumarin at one time, or too often (unless Ceylon cinnamon is available http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm). The recommended maximum is 2 tablespoons ground cinnamon per treatment. I suggest alternating using just honey and distilled water or honey and cardamom and distilled water (coconut oil and evoo are optional).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom can be skin sensitizers. Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon and has a higher peroxide value. Patch test before using either spice.

Cardamom
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/CardamomSeed.htm

It really depends on the frequency of one's honey lightening routine and preferred recipe.

Even though I have posted about the ground cassia cinnamon, coumarin connection before, it is always good IMO, to review research again.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380

Overuse of ground cassia cinnamon is not recommended.

ktani
January 17th, 2009, 06:56 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
January 17th, 2009, 09:35 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 07:31 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

Girltron
January 18th, 2009, 08:27 AM
Re: the tinting brush, I've used an artists' bristle fan brush for years for all my cosmetic processes from applying face masks to indigo-ing my roots. I'm sure it would work for this too, and they're easy to come by at a local Michael's.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 08:32 AM
Re: the tinting brush, I've used an artists' bristle fan brush for years for all my cosmetic processes from applying face masks to indigo-ing my roots. I'm sure it would work for this too, and they're easy to come by at a local Michael's.

Fantastic idea!, IMO.

Thank you for sharing it here.

Avalonna
January 18th, 2009, 10:07 AM
I bought a regular synthetic-bristle paintbrush to try. The discount store I went to didn't have any short brushes. I think I need to try a different honey, though. My DH and DD both thought my hair looked a little lighter, but I'm not so sure. I've done two honey treatments so far. I used distilled water and a blend of two local honeys in the correct proportions. The first time, I used 2 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs cardamum; the second time I used 1 Tbs EVOO and 2 Tbs cardamum. Here are pics; I did my best to keep the lighting consistent. As you can see, they look pretty much the same.

Before honey treatment: http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4104/beforelo6.jpg

After first treatment: http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5025/after1ex4.jpg

After second treatment: http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3521/after2ao6.jpg

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 10:18 AM
I bought a regular synthetic-bristle paintbrush to try. The discount store I went to didn't have any short brushes. I think I need to try a different honey, though. My DH and DD both thought my hair looked a little lighter, but I'm not so sure. I've done two honey treatments so far. I used distilled water and a blend of two local honeys in the correct proportions. The first time, I used 2 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs cardamum; the second time I used 1 Tbs EVOO and 2 Tbs cardamum. Here are pics; I did my best to keep the lighting consistent. As you can see, they look pretty much the same.

Before honey treatment: http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4104/beforelo6.jpg

After first treatment: http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5025/after1ex4.jpg

After second treatment: http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3521/after2ao6.jpg

Thank you so much for your report and pictures. How does your hair feel, the condition? It looks gorgeous.

Picture lighting is tricky but I agree in that I do not see much difference in colour.

Feedback from those around you though, is more important, IMO.

The recipe is not the problem, in most cases recently. It is the method that seems to be a problem for some and the honey.

How did you cover your hair and was it evenly wet with the treatment, the entire time that the treatment was on your hair?

Avalonna
January 18th, 2009, 11:47 AM
The first time I tried applying it with a turkey baster, but the mix mostly rolled off my hair instead of soaking in. I switched to a comb (dunk, comb through, repeat) and that worked better but dripped all over my bathroom counter! The second time I put a big bowl in the bathtub and had my DH pour the mix over my head into the bowl several times, and I dunked as much as I could into the bowl. I covered my head with a plastic bag both times. My hair was much wetter during the second treatment, because I had dunked it.

Interestingly, even though the first mix had more oil, I found that the oil was much harder to wash out with the second mix. Aside from a day with oily hair after the second treatment, my hair has felt great and has been easier to brush (fewer tangles). I'm going to try to find a honey on the successful honeys list, or, if I can't, I'll try a different, maybe darker, honey.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 11:59 AM
The first time I tried applying it with a turkey baster, but the mix mostly rolled off my hair instead of soaking in. I switched to a comb (dunk, comb through, repeat) and that worked better but dripped all over my bathroom counter! The second time I put a big bowl in the bathtub and had my DH pour the mix over my head into the bowl several times, and I dunked as much as I could into the bowl. I covered my head with a plastic bag both times. My hair was much wetter during the second treatment, because I had dunked it.

Interestingly, even though the first mix had more oil, I found that the oil was much harder to wash out with the second mix. Aside from a day with oily hair after the second treatment, my hair has felt great and has been easier to brush (fewer tangles). I'm going to try to find a honey on the successful honeys list, or, if I can't, I'll try a different, maybe darker, honey.

What is on your hair when you apply the treatment. Do you oil your hair after washing normally? If you do, it can act as a barrier to the water based treatment.

You can CO out a honey lightening treatment. CO'ing has been reported to remove oil easier than shampoo.

Bagging the hair is good. Bagging and a lycra swim cap is better IMO, and has been reported to cause less drips.

You have a lot of gorgeous hair. It is important to keep the hair evenly wet during honey lightening. That can be difficult with a lot of hair, because some of it can start to dry, during application. Keep some treatment aside in a mister, and keep misting the hair to keep it wet, before covering.

Good luck with the honey.

Avalonna
January 18th, 2009, 12:10 PM
Thanks ktani! My hair was pretty darn wet for the second treatment (kept dripping down my face and neck after the bag was on), and I think it stayed wet fairly evenly. My hair had nothing on it during the treatments..... hmmmm..... i think. It's possible I had some coconut oil on the ends the second time. I'll make sure my hair is free of stuff next time. Thanks for mentioning that, I hadn't thought of oil inhibiting the treatment. Maybe it's time to invest in a swim cap!

ACWN
January 18th, 2009, 12:11 PM
I remember reading some where on this post about using honey as a hair gel? Did I, or am I just crazier then I think I am?

If I'm not, whats the recipe? My hubby has long, super curly hair and he sometimes puts a great deal of gel in his hair to keep the fly away curls down.


Oh! Yeah, the recipe I mentioned I used? The 2 parts honey to 1 part conditioner? It works really well on curly hair. I made him my guinea pig, and when he woke up the next day after his nap (he works graveyard), his hair wasnt all over the place! Normally when he wakes up he looks like some mad scientist because the short curls on his temples and such frizz up. Not when I used that treatment on him! Granted, the day after that it was back to normal... but yeah.

Its also drastically improved the condition of my split ends! They look and feel a TON better, they were pretty bad, and I've only used the treatment 3 times.

Oh, and its been keeping well in the fridge.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 12:39 PM
Thanks ktani! My hair was pretty darn wet for the second treatment (kept dripping down my face and neck after the bag was on), and I think it stayed wet fairly evenly. My hair had nothing on it during the treatments..... hmmmm..... i think. It's possible I had some coconut oil on the ends the second time. I'll make sure my hair is free of stuff next time. Thanks for mentioning that, I hadn't thought of oil inhibiting the treatment. Maybe it's time to invest in a swim cap!

Ironic, isn't it? Coconut oil is a honey lightening booster but any oil, that is not absorbed into the hair completely, can act as a barrier to a honey lightening treatment, which is now, mostly water.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 12:43 PM
I remember reading some where on this post about using honey as a hair gel? Did I, or am I just crazier then I think I am?

If I'm not, whats the recipe? My hubby has long, super curly hair and he sometimes puts a great deal of gel in his hair to keep the fly away curls down.


Oh! Yeah, the recipe I mentioned I used? The 2 parts honey to 1 part conditioner? It works really well on curly hair. I made him my guinea pig, and when he woke up the next day after his nap (he works graveyard), his hair wasnt all over the place! Normally when he wakes up he looks like some mad scientist because the short curls on his temples and such frizz up. Not when I used that treatment on him! Granted, the day after that it was back to normal... but yeah.

Its also drastically improved the condition of my split ends! They look and feel a TON better, they were pretty bad, and I've only used the treatment 3 times.

Oh, and its been keeping well in the fridge.

No, you did not imagine honey used as a leave-in.
It is no doubt somewhere in this thread, but I did not record it here, because it has its own thread, here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=17026

Great news about the split ends. As long as you do not add water to the honey/conditioner mix, it should last a while, refridgerated or not but refridgeration is better, IMO.

amaiaisabella
January 18th, 2009, 01:12 PM
I ended up doing two different treatments:

1) one with minimal honey, a lot of cinammon, and distilled water. The measurements ended up being around 3 tablespoons honey, 6 tablespoons cinammon, and 3/4 cup distilled water. It left my hair a bit dry, but no visible color change except on the top portion of my hair, where the red became more visible.

2) one with 1/4 cup honey, and a cup distilled water. The result was a bit liquidy, but I covered the bottom portion of my hair (from ears down) and streaked it through the top, using a plastic ketchup bottle. My hair doesn't seem to have changed color in any way, and there still seems to be honey residue on my ends.

Should I have done an acid rinse after washing out the honey? I used CO to rinse, and washed until the slip went away from my hair. I'm not quite sure that I am using the right mixture. I was debating just making a mixture with honey and conditioner, since my hair seems to continually be drying out, but would like to try once more, just to be sure.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 01:27 PM
I ended up doing two different treatments:

1) one with minimal honey, a lot of cinammon, and distilled water. The measurements ended up being around 3 tablespoons honey, 6 tablespoons cinammon, and 3/4 cup distilled water. It left my hair a bit dry, but no visible color change except on the top portion of my hair, where the red became more visible.

2) one with 1/4 cup honey, and a cup distilled water. The result was a bit liquidy, but I covered the bottom portion of my hair (from ears down) and streaked it through the top, using a plastic ketchup bottle. My hair doesn't seem to have changed color in any way, and there still seems to be honey residue on my ends.

Should I have done an acid rinse after washing out the honey? I used CO to rinse, and washed until the slip went away from my hair. I'm not quite sure that I am using the right mixture. I was debating just making a mixture with honey and conditioner, since my hair seems to continually be drying out, but would like to try once more, just to be sure.

In both cases your recipe dilution is off, if you are trying to use the new dilution and not just experiment (which is fine if you are experimenting, IMO).

By not using enough distilled water, I am not surprised that you still have some honey in your hair but honey residue varies with the honey too. Shampoo should remove that no problem, and better than a vinegar rinse, from reports. Honey residue is drying. I suggest more distilled water and a different honey.

The simplest way to describe the new dilution is 1 to 6.

1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water. 2 to 12. 3 to 18, etc. The pH is important in this, in order for honey to produce more peroxide. The new dilution is reported to work well, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=282315&postcount=2296.

6 tablespoons ground cinnamon is a lot. I am glad to hear that you did not have irritation problems.

ACWN
January 18th, 2009, 01:52 PM
No, you did not imagine honey used as a leave-in.
It is no doubt somewhere in this thread, but I did not record it here, because it has its own thread, here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=17026

Great news about the split ends. As long as you do not add water to the honey/conditioner mix, it should last a while, refridgerated or not but refridgeration is better, IMO.

Ah! Thank you. I'll see if I can get him to use it, might help his hair.

Yeah, I'm glad about the split ends thing too. I did throw in a little bit of water because the stuff was really thick and freezing cold... but I dont think it was nearly enough to worry about. It wasnt even a tablespoon worth. Plus I threw in more honey after my shower, so.. yeah.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 01:55 PM
Ah! Thank you. I'll see if I can get him to use it, might help his hair.

Yeah, I'm glad about the split ends thing too. I did throw in a little bit of water because the stuff was really thick and freezing cold... but I dont think it was nearly enough to worry about. It wasnt even a tablespoon worth. Plus I threw in more honey after my shower, so.. yeah.

Even with that small amount of added water, I would not keep the mix too long. Preservatives are calulated for batch sizes with products, purified water is used, and despite honey having antibacterial properties, its does not count as a preservative, IMO.

ACWN
January 18th, 2009, 01:57 PM
Even with that small amount of added water, I would not keep the mix too long. Preservatives are calulated for batch sizes with products. purified water is used, and despite honey having antibacterial properties, its does not count as a preservative, IMO.

Surely the conditioner would count though.. there is a lot of conditioner in the mix. Either way, I'll keep an eye on it and it wont last very long any way.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 02:01 PM
Surely the conditioner would count though.. there is a lot of conditioner in the mix. Either way, I'll keep an eye on it and it wont last very long any way.

The condition does count. My point is though, that the preservatives in the conditioner have limitations. You diluted the mix. Therefore, you have changed the perameters that were set up for the preservatives, in the conditioner.

ACWN
January 18th, 2009, 02:04 PM
The condition does count. My point is though, that the preservatives in the conditioner have limitations. You diluted the mix. Therefore, you have changed the perameters that were set up for the preservatives, in the conditioner.

Okay, fair enough. But it still wont last long, and if anything.. I'll make my hubby use up what I dont. It wont last between the two of us.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Okay, fair enough. But it still wont last long, and if anything.. I'll make my hubby use up what I dont. It wont last between the two of us.

Good idea. You used unpurified water. That does change things too, IMO.

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Purified water in products is deioinzed mostly, from labels. That means it is set not to react with ingredients. It contains no minerals, like distilled water but there may be more to it.

I think that this should help.
http://en.mimi.hu/beauty/purified_water.html

More
http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_details.php?ingredient_id=1566

ktani
January 18th, 2009, 10:23 PM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with strong oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and can deplete or negatively interact, with the peroxide levels of honey lightening recipes, IMO.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
January 19th, 2009, 04:22 PM
Adding honey to a henna treatment has come up, recently.

The new dilution has been reported to work so well for a few reasons.

There are 3 key ones, for a honey lightening treatment to work as well as it can.

1. A good peroxide producing honey

2. The right water (distilled) or tap water with a pH of 7 and no minerals

3. The right dilution, basic, 1 tablespoon of honey to 6 tablespoons of distilled water

Then there is the method. The hair must be kept very evenly wet, which is not the same as dripping, throughout the time that the treatment is on the hair, either covered, or constantly misted.

I do not know how much water is used to how much henna, but I understand that it is a thick paste. That means not too much water. Adding honey to a thick paste with water in it will dilute the honey and if it is straight distilled water (no added Vitamin C, like lemon juice in the mix), it should not have too low a pH but honey needs to be pH 6, for optimal peroxide production. Henna is about pH 4.5 and most honey is that or lower. Put it altogether and the conditions are not ideal for much in the way of lightening to happen. It may but slight, IMO, at best.

There one way this may work to prevent henna from going darker. It is an unknown, and I cannot predict results or go by reports.

Mix a honey lightening treatment first, with honey lightening boosters, 3 of them if you can, 1 tablespoon each of ground cinnamon, ground cardamom and evoo, to 2 tablespoons honey and 6 oz of distilled water and let that sit for 2 hours (you can also use 2 tablespoons of ground cinnamon or ground cardamom). Use that mix only to dilute the henna powder, for dye release, or better yet, mix distilled water only with the henna first (you will have more distilled water in the mix), then add the honey lightening treatment, but you will not need the full amount. The treatment will already have produced peroxide. Once you add the honey lightening treatment to the henna, it will not produce much if any more peroxide. It may help prevent the henna from darkening.