PDA

View Full Version : Honey thread - from TBB and bits from old LHC



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

RocketDog
November 12th, 2008, 12:34 PM
I found my perfect recipe and application/soak technique!

My hair LOOOOOVES this recipe:
3/4 C distilled water
1/4 C clover honey
2 tbsp refined coconut oil
1 1/2 tbsp ground cardamom
1 tbsp ground cinnamon

I mix it, let it sit for 24 hours, then soak my hair in it for an hour under plastic wrap and a snug beanie. Wash, dry, and viola! Gorgeous, bright shiny hair that smells great!

I found that brushing it on with a small paintbrush is way easier than trying to pour it on, and I get better results when I apply it to dry hair instead of damp hair. I have to wear the beanie to keep the plastic wrap on tight, and I just wrap a towel around my neck to catch the drippies.

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 01:31 PM
I found my perfect recipe and application/soak technique!

My hair LOOOOOVES this recipe:
3/4 C distilled water
1/4 C clover honey
2 tbsp refined coconut oil
1 1/2 tbsp ground cardamom
1 tbsp ground cinnamon

I mix it, let it sit for 24 hours, then soak my hair in it for an hour under plastic wrap and a snug beanie. Wash, dry, and viola! Gorgeous, bright shiny hair that smells great!

I found that brushing it on with a small paintbrush is way easier than trying to pour it on, and I get better results when I apply it to dry hair instead of damp hair. I have to wear the beanie to keep the plastic wrap on tight, and I just wrap a towel around my neck to catch the drippies.

I am so glad that you are happy with it but for the recipe for the best lightening, you have the wrong amount of water, if you are tryng to use the new dilution. For 1/4 cup honey, the correct amount of water is 1.5 cups distilled water, US measurement.

RocketDog
November 12th, 2008, 02:08 PM
my only problem with using that much water is it's enough for like three treatments, since my hair is relatively short and not terribly thick. I'll try reducing the amounts of everything else and keep the water the same, and report back with results.

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 02:28 PM
my only problem with using that much water is it's enough for like three treatments, since my hair is relatively short and not terribly thick. I'll try reducing the amounts of everything else and keep the water the same, and report back with results.

All you have to do is reduce the honey to 1/8 cup and the spices to 1 tablespoon in total for that recipe. The oil is up to you in how it washes out of your hair.

krspies
November 12th, 2008, 09:27 PM
I am obviously a bad influence, lol. You posted 3 posts consecutively, and then you edited, just like I do, lol. I missed this part. I do not consider any question to be dumb.

Lemon juice contains Vitamin C. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. If you add lemon juice to a honeny lightening recipe, you lower the peroxide level of the recipe. Vitamin C ingredients are no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening treatments. Examples of such ingredients are tomato products, lemon juice and hibiscus tea.

Aloe vera gel contains 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. A honey lightening treatment is not recommended to be applied to unwashed hair that has a leave-in that contains Vitamin C, like aloe gel or a left-in lemon juice rinse.

Flax seed gel is incompatible with strong oxidizers. Hydrogen peroxide is considered to be a moderately strong oxidizer, so flax seed gel counts as a leave-in to be be avoided as well (with a treatment applied over it). Flax seed gel will not necessarily lower the peroxide level, but it may interact with peroxide to result in a negative effect, IMO.

I'm glad I haven't changed the recipe. Since I hadn't had gotten back online and didn't see this post I stuck with the original recipe you helped me with. Thanks for explaining about the lemon. I do remember reading about it in one of the posts.

I didn't know for sure about aloe vera so I hadn't even gone there. I did see some conditioners with aloe in them and wondered about it. I've been looking at organic shampoo and conditioner at the store lately.

About the flax seed. I was taking flax seed vitamins. I haven't taken them in a couple of months because I"m really bad about taking pills. But would that contribute to the resistance of the hair lightening and the henna being lifted?

krspies
November 12th, 2008, 09:32 PM
I found my perfect recipe and application/soak technique!

My hair LOOOOOVES this recipe:
3/4 C distilled water
1/4 C clover honey
2 tbsp refined coconut oil
1 1/2 tbsp ground cardamom
1 tbsp ground cinnamon

I mix it, let it sit for 24 hours, then soak my hair in it for an hour under plastic wrap and a snug beanie. Wash, dry, and viola! Gorgeous, bright shiny hair that smells great!

I found that brushing it on with a small paintbrush is way easier than trying to pour it on, and I get better results when I apply it to dry hair instead of damp hair. I have to wear the beanie to keep the plastic wrap on tight, and I just wrap a towel around my neck to catch the drippies.

is it safe to mix spices like that? should I mix the cinnamon and the cardamom together?

btw...cardamom? OMG it was 11 bucks! I don't mind paying for my hair products but this surprised me. lol

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 09:33 PM
I didn't know for sure about aloe vera so I hadn't even gone there. I did see some conditioners with aloe in them and wondered about it. I've been looking at organic shampoo and conditioner at the store lately.

About the flax seed. I was taking flax seed vitamins. I haven't taken them in a couple of months because I"m really bad about taking pills. But would that contribute to the resistance of the hair lightening and the henna being lifted?

I do not think that most conditioners contain enough aloe vera gel to be concerned about and as long as they are rinsed out and have not built-up on your hair (the residue would be the problem, not the aloe gel), they should be fine.

Taking flax seed internally, should have absolutely no effect on a honey lightening treatment whatsoever, IMO. You may naturally produce more sebum (becaue of the omega fatty acids) but that is about all.

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 09:40 PM
is it safe to mix spices like that? should I mix the cinnamon and the cardamom together?

btw...cardamom? OMG it was 11 bucks! I don't mind paying for my hair products but this surprised me. lol

There is nothing wrong with mixing spices IMO. No one has reported a problem with doing so.

I have not made a huge point of it but I have mentioned (not frequently, I admit, so you no doubt missed it) that McCormicks ground cardamom is cheaper than most other brands and has not been reported to be problematic in terms of irritation. However either spice can be an irritant.

krspies
November 12th, 2008, 09:42 PM
There is nothing wrong with mixing spices IMO. No one has reported a problem with doing so.

I have not made a huge point of it but I have mentioned (not frequently, I admit, so you no doubt missed it) that McCormicks ground cardamom is cheaper than most other brands and has not been reported to be problematic in terms of irritation. However either spice can be an irritant.


Oh no I looked for McCormicks but they didn't have it in that brand. I got stuck buying the expensive one. They did have whole cardamom seeds though which looked pretty interesting :eyebrows:

krspies
November 12th, 2008, 09:47 PM
I do not think that most conditioners contain enough aloe vera gel to be concerned about and as long as they are rinsed out and have not built-up on your hair (the residue would be the problem, not the aloe gel), they should be fine.
.

I have an aloe vera plant in my front yard. I wonder what that would do to my hair? not during the honey treatment though just in general.

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 09:50 PM
Oh no I looked for McCormicks but they didn't have it in that brand. I got stuck buying the expensive one. They did have whole cardamom seeds though which looked pretty interesting :eyebrows:

You would need to grind those yourself and what I did notice on McCormicks' website, if that is the brand for the whole seeds, is that the cardamom for the seeds comes from India and the ground is from South America.

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 09:53 PM
I have an aloe vera plant in my front yard. I wonder what that would do to my hair? not during the honey treatment though just in general.

It is reported to be popular for conditioning, according to some people.

I have read that fresh aloe vera gel contains enzymes that are exfoliating. I would use the fresh gel on cuts and burns and store bought on hair.

krspies
November 12th, 2008, 09:54 PM
well forget that! lol I"m not about to grind up any seeds. I'm just not up for it. I'll pay the 11 bucks for someone else to do it.

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 09:55 PM
well forget that! lol I"m not about to grind up any seeds. I'm just not up for it. I'll pay the 11 bucks for someone else to do it.

I knew that you were smart, lol.

krspies
November 12th, 2008, 09:56 PM
I would use the fresh gel on cuts and burns and store bought on hair. That's pretty much what we use it for. It does come in handy.

krspies
November 12th, 2008, 09:56 PM
I knew that you were smart, lol.

LOL thank goodness!

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 10:00 PM
LOL thank goodness!

Actually for eating, grinding the seeds yourself is supposed to be fresher in terms of potency with cardamom, which is exactly why I think that the ground, (which should be potent enough) is better.

The less chance there is of irritation. Ground spices if stored properly, in a cupboard, away from heat and moisture should stay fresh for a good while.

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 10:10 PM
Storing honey lightening ingredients

Honey
"Store honey at room temperature with .... lid on tightly."
http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57 (http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57)

Ground spices
"Ground spices will keep .... 1 year .... Spices should be kept away from the heat, light and humidity .... prevent flavor and color loss." http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf (http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf)

Coconut oil
"Coconut oil is extremely stable .... can be kept at room temperature .... many months."
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/oil/coconut.html (http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/oil/coconut.html)

Extra Virgin Olive Oil
"Olive oil connoisseurs recommend storing .... extra-virgin olive oils at room temperature."
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm (http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm)

Water
Store .... water .... in a cool, dark place.
Replace water every six months."
http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/info.asp?page=2839

Opened water
"To minimize exposure to bacteria, open a container just before use and then refrigerate it .... If no refrigeration .... available, keep the container up high, away from children and pets.
Direct heat and light .... slowly damage plastic containers resulting in eventual leakage .... they should be stored in a dark, cool and dry place.
Water can also be stored in a freezer."
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SS439

gallows_gallery
November 13th, 2008, 05:13 AM
Here are some pics of my hair after my 7th honey - jarrah with a tablespoon of cardamom. I haven't noticed allll that much difference, but I got in the car with my friend today who wowed at how much lighter the ends look in the sun ^_^

In the sun, no flash: (the inside/under bits are lighter)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8521.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8524.jpg


In evening sunlight, with flash:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8540.jpg

Inside, with flash:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8541.jpg

Outside evening light, no flash:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8542.jpg


Lengths, inside, with flash in lamplight:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8499-1.jpg

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Here are some pics of my hair after my 7th honey - jarrah with a tablespoon of cardamom. I haven't noticed allll that much difference, but I got in the car with my friend today who wowed at how much lighter the ends look in the sun ^_^

In the sun, no flash: (the inside/under bits are lighter)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8521.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8524.jpg


In evening sunlight, with flash:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8540.jpg

Inside, with flash:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8541.jpg

Outside evening light, no flash:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8542.jpg


Lengths, inside, with flash in lamplight:
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8499-1.jpg

I can see a huge difference in the colour in terms of shade and tone. Inside with flash, your hair no longer looks black, outside your hair looks brown/red. Great job on the lightening. I am very happy for you.

How does your hair feel after this last honey lightening treatment?

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 08:15 AM
gallows gallery

I was pming with someone last night about honey lightening treatments and areas of the hair drying. She had the top layers dry and the under layers had overall remained wet.

It may be with your hair, that the top most layers are not staying as wet as the under layers during a treatment. I can see that the under layers have lightened more.

When the treatment is covered, you can check to see that the top layers are wet to the touch and mist them and recover if they are not.

A more secure covering may be needed but I think that your hair colour looks awesome now.

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 08:23 AM
Okay here are some photos:

I'm having trouble deciding whether it's lightened at all because the colour varies so dramatically depending on the light/angle etc. of the photo.

Left: AFTER jarrah honey (so, 6 applications)
Right: BEFORE jarrah honey (so, 5 beechworth honey applications).
Hair is from the same day - the crappy quality photo has made them look the same - the left was substantially lighter
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8351.jpg


After 5 honey treatments (not jarrah yet), inside light, with flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8219.jpg


The exact same ponytail in direct sunlight, no flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8224.jpg

My (unbrushed) ends today, in the sun, no flash (after jarrah)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8362.jpg

Same hair again, ends clipped up, inside light with no flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8363.jpg

Sometimes I get really nice brown looking photos with no flash in the sun, but as soon as the flash is on it looks pitch black :(
I'm going to continue jarrah on the lengths and see how I go.

It is better to see pictures side by side but I can see the difference with the inside with flash pictures on your lengths from these pictures and the new ones.

Outside in evening light, you can see just how much colour has lightened in the new pictures here http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=342871&postcount=2780. Amazing!

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 08:42 AM
gallow gallery

You have done 7 honey lightening treatments in total but only 2 with the Jarrah honey. The Jarrah honey has made the most difference and your friend noticed a huge difference in your hair colour too. That counts even more than the pictures IMO, because she is seeing your hair colour in real life, up close in different lighting. In the lamplight picture, your top layers look burgundy to me, not black.

gallows_gallery
November 13th, 2008, 09:54 AM
Hooray!

Yeah I doubt the first few honey treatments did anything because I was just guessing the mixture and using quite a light non-jarrah honey.

I've got another two weeks until I dye it...I'll try to finish my entire massive jar of honey by then.

Condition after the last treatment was okay -better than the 6th where it turned to crap, but not the nicest its ever been. Again - no stress, my hair has on and off weeks. I think if anything it's from all the shampooing (just about every second day) instead of the honey.

I'll try to put together some comparison photos.

Oh and the lightness underneath - that's from when I got it stripped, for some reason the underneath bits just went lighter; but honey has also lightened them significantly!

The lightening continues!

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 09:59 AM
Hooray!

Yeah I doubt the first few honey treatments did anything because I was just guessing the mixture and using quite a light non-jarrah honey.

I've got another two weeks until I dye it...I'll try to finish my entire massive jar of honey by then.

Condition after the last treatment was okay -better than the 6th where it turned to crap, but not the nicest its ever been. Again - no stress, my hair has on and off weeks. I think if anything it's from all the shampooing (just about every second day) instead of the honey.

I'll try to put together some comparison photos.

Oh and the lightness underneath - that's from when I got it stripped, for some reason the underneath bits just went lighter; but honey has also lightened them significantly!

The lightening continues!

Thank you for the clarificatiion on the under layers.

If you do not use too much conditioner when you wash after honey lightening, you can do a treatment on unwashed hair with no leave-in like aloe or flax gel or a left-in lemon juice rinse. That may help the condition results.

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 10:03 AM
gallows gallery

The right recipe and measurements plus using distilled water all make the difference in lightening, as does the honey. Your current results show that very well, IMO. I think that your method may need tweaking to get more lightening on the top layers but overall, bravo!

RocketDog
November 13th, 2008, 11:53 AM
There is nothing wrong with mixing spices IMO. No one has reported a problem with doing so.

I have not made a huge point of it but I have mentioned (not frequently, I admit, so you no doubt missed it) that McCormicks ground cardamom is cheaper than most other brands and has not been reported to be problematic in terms of irritation. However either spice can be an irritant.

I bought my cardamom at Whole Foods for $5, it's their proprietary brand and it works just fine.

I did not notice any difference in 'tingle factor' between the plain cinnamon and combined spice recipes, but I did notice more of a lightening effect when I added both. I do add a healthy dose of coconut oil to my recipe, too, and I don't know if that has any effect on the spices' peroxide boosting or scalp irritating properties...


I do have a quick question for you, ktani. I know the directions suggest allowing the mixture to sit for an hour before you apply it, but what about letting it sit for a full day? When I make up a batch, there is easily enough for two applications, so I'll do one right after mixing it, then use the rest the following evening. Will that 24 hour wait make a difference in the useable peroxide?

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 12:08 PM
I bought my cardamom at Whole Foods for $5, it's their proprietary brand and it works just fine.

I did not notice any difference in 'tingle factor' between the plain cinnamon and combined spice recipes, but I did notice more of a lightening effect when I added both. I do add a healthy dose of coconut oil to my recipe, too, and I don't know if that has any effect on the spices' peroxide boosting or scalp irritating properties...


I do have a quick question for you, ktani. I know the directions suggest allowing the mixture to sit for an hour before you apply it, but what about letting it sit for a full day? When I make up a batch, there is easily enough for two applications, so I'll do one right after mixing it, then use the rest the following evening. Will that 24 hour wait make a difference in the useable peroxide?

Ground cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamom and only one report of irritation so far, vs quite a few for ground cinnamon. It may be the coconut oil that is helping in your mix.

There is nothing wrong with letting a mix sit for 24 hours in theory but it is unknown as to how long it may take before the peroxide starts to break down. If you refridgerate the mix, it may be better but for producing peroxide, room temperature is recommended, in the research I have read.

In other research, a honey reached its maximum peroxide level in 24 hours and then the peroxide level rapidly declined.

I would aim for something in between, if you want to play with timing.

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 01:16 PM
coconut oil? should I try that too? lol I'm going to end up dumping everything in my kitchen in my recipe.

Ktani, I finally found a pic of my hair before my first henna treatment. I uploaded it as my avatar. this is the color I'm trying to go back to. do you think I stand a chance of getting back to this color?

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 01:27 PM
coconut oil? should I try that too? lol I'm going to end up dumping everything in my kitchen in my recipe.

Ktani, I finally found a pic of my hair before my first henna treatment. I uploaded it as my avatar. this is the color I'm trying to go back to. do you think I stand a chance of getting back to this color?

The new honey lightening recipes are edible, lol. They might just make a nice marinade, lol.

There are 2 honey lightening booster oils that can be used to contribute extra peroxide to a recipe, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. The evoo has a higher peroxide level.

I cannot predict how light anyone can go with honey lightening.
However I am constantly surprised and WOWED, by reported results.

Examples
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

and
Honey lightening on hennaed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=290516&postcount=2339

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 01:38 PM
How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 01:40 PM
lol if I ever wear the honey mix to work again at least I know I"ll have lunch. thanks for the links of pics. maybe I'm just hoping for too much lightening. I'm gonna keep at it though and see how light I can get it. geez my head is gonna get sore from all this. I should probably only do a treatment every couple of days so it doesn't get sore.

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 01:46 PM
lol if I ever wear the honey mix to work again at least I know I"ll have lunch. thanks for the links of pics. maybe I'm just hoping for too much lightening. I'm gonna keep at it though and see how light I can get it. geez my head is gonna get sore from all this. I should probably only do a treatment every couple of days so it doesn't get sore.

If you want to go for as light as you may get, you might want to invest in this honey, follow the new recipe guidlines and give it a go. gallows gallery, after 2 only treatments with it and the right recipe and dilution, is getting great results, after 5 previous attempts with not using the guidelines.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 01:51 PM
I wondered about that. when I was at the store yesterday I was looking for the jarrad honey but couldn't find any. I do think I"m going to order some which reminds me I need to order another swim cap per your recommendation.

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 01:54 PM
I may need to wait until payday. lol and then I"ll have to hide it from the hubby. the honey not the purchase. LOL

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 01:55 PM
I wondered about that. when I was at the store yesterday I was looking for the jarrad honey but couldn't find any. I do think I"m going to order some which reminds me I need to order another swim cap per your recommendation.

Jarrah honey is sold mostly in Australia, but can be ordered internationally. Those 2 sources seem to be reliable. If you do order, it would be helpful to others if you review customer service and response/shipping times.

magpielaura
November 13th, 2008, 01:58 PM
I'm going to try a cardamom mixture tommorrow!

I will be cooking my dinner this evening with a dab of cardamom and water behind my ear to check for itchies. I will look strange but smell divine.

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 02:01 PM
I may need to wait until payday. lol and then I"ll have to hide it from the hubby. the honey not the purchase. LOL

Yes there is that lol. gallows gallery borrowed her boy friend's jar of Jarrah honey, lol.

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 02:11 PM
LOL oh boy! has he realized it has gone missing? LOL

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 02:13 PM
Jarrah honey is sold mostly in Australia, but can be ordered internationally. Those 2 sources seem to be reliable. If you do order, it would be helpful to others if you review customer service and response/shipping times.

I know there are some whole food stores down in socal so I may see if I can find some here somewhere. if not I"ll order and post and let everyone know how my experience went

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 02:13 PM
well I"m off to wash my hair. my trim appointment is in an hour and I don't want them using their shampoo on me. I'll catch you all later.

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 02:29 PM
well I"m off to wash my hair. my trim appointment is in an hour and I don't want them using their shampoo on me. I'll catch you all later.

I hear you on that.

As to a certain boy friend and his jar of honey, I doubt if he minds.

I also doubt if WF carries Jarrah honey but you never know.

I am glad that you are patch testing the cardamom.

Thank you for agreeing to review a website if you order the honey.

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 05:52 PM
Ktani while I was waiting on the stylist I was googleing the jarrah honey and I found that whole foods doesn't have it either. interestingly I found a company in new jersey that says they have jarrah honey but I couldn't find any on their site. I guess I will probably have to order it online.

anyway, I just got back from having my hair cut and my daughter took a picture. I put it side by side with the others and here's what my hair looks like now. I can see a difference and it does look more red??? does it to you? do you see the two tonedeness I see?

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/progress.jpg

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 06:08 PM
Ktani while I was waiting on the stylist I was googleing the jarrah honey and I found that whole foods doesn't have it either. interestingly I found a company in new jersey that says they have jarrah honey but I couldn't find any on their site. I guess I will probably have to order it online.

anyway, I just got back from having my hair cut and my daughter took a picture. I put it side by side with the others and here's what my hair looks like now. I can see a difference and it does look more red??? does it to you? do you see the two tonedeness I see?

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/progress.jpg

The New Jersey Company? Contact them and ask about Jarrah honey and if it is not in stock, do they plan on getting some, and pricing.

It may just be cheaper to order direct from the sources I have in that post. They are apiaries that sell direct.

As to your hair, yes it does look 2 toned but the problem is that the lighting is different. It does look both redder and lighter in certain areas. What is the feedback from those around you?

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 06:17 PM
I didn't think about calling them. I'll give that a try.

the lighting is diffrent. In the first pics before honey it was overcast outside with no sun. today it is bright and sunny. I'm going to try to take another pic when the sun starts to set and it isn't so bright outside and see what it looks like. The stylist said she saw the two tones. my daughter says it is a bit lighter and redder. my son says redder my husband just growls at me for asking him so often. LOL

I have to keep reminding myself I am a natural redhead so I should expect to see some red. I've been changing the shade of red for so many years now I can't even remember the exact shade of red it is naturally except that it is a dark red but when I was a kid and went in the sun a lot it would lighten up ALOT and then it was almost a strawberry blonde with just a tad more red in it than a strawberry blonde. If that makes sense. lol

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 06:25 PM
I didn't think about calling them. I'll give that a try.

the lighting is diffrent. In the first pics before honey it was overcast outside with no sun. today it is bright and sunny. I'm going to try to take another pic when the sun starts to set and it isn't so bright outside and see what it looks like. The stylist said she saw the two tones. my daughter says it is a bit lighter and redder. my son says redder my husband just growls at me for asking him so often. LOL

I have to keep reminding myself I am a natural redhead so I should expect to see some red. I've been changing the shade of red for so many years now I can't even remember the exact shade of red it is naturally except that it is a dark red but when I was a kid and went in the sun a lot it would lighten up ALOT and then it was almost a strawberry blonde with just a tad more red in it than a strawberry blonde. If that makes sense. lol

Well then IMO based on your real life comments, your hair is both 2 toned and redder. That is cool. Ok, now it is just about refining a recipe, method and continuing. How is the condition of your hair? It looks great.

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 06:30 PM
oh the condition is fantastic! it's so smooth and soft. I'm so torn about now. LOL because after seeing that pic I love the color. I don't know if I should keep trying to lighten or just apply my marigold/red henna combo the way it is. I may try a couple of more honey treatments first though. geez I'm waffling. LOL

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 06:33 PM
oh the condition is fantastic! it's so smooth and soft. I'm so torn about now. LOL because after seeing that pic I love the color. I don't know if I should keep trying to lighten or just apply my marigold/red henna combo the way it is. I may try a couple of more honey treatments first though. geez I'm waffling. LOL

That is ok. You do not have to go any lighter than you want and you can always honey lighten in the future. Take the time perhaps to get used to the new colour or just henna over it.

Great news about the condition of your hair.

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 06:34 PM
days like this were meant for wigs. lol it's too bad I can't have a wig of my own hair in both colors.

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 06:41 PM
days like this were meant for wigs. lol it's too bad I can't have a wig of my own hair in both colors.

How much do you love your natural colour? How much do you love henna? How much do you love this colour? No rush on the answers. Your choice. No time limit.

You cannot remove all traces of a lot of henna with anything reported, yet.

krspies
November 13th, 2008, 06:48 PM
well that's a loaded question!! LOL I don't know. I love them both. darnit that's just not fair! lol

well I gotta run. the family is looking at me for food again. (sigh) I kind of wish they were like goldfish and I could feed them once a day.

ktani
November 13th, 2008, 06:56 PM
well that's a loaded question!! LOL I don't know. I love them both. darnit that's just not fair! lol

well I gotta run. the family is looking at me for food again. (sigh) I kind of wish they were like goldfish and I could feed them once a day.

There is no rush, lol. Enjoy the colour in the moment.

SeaPhoenix
November 14th, 2008, 05:50 AM
I'm trying again here. I came across a really dark honey at the little health food store off base. It says its tropical honey from Brazil and Hawaii.
I'm curious to see if I'll get a more noticeable result from this, since its a mixed honey, and dark.
Not sure if it's anything to go off of, but it doesn't taste quite as sweet as the normal honeys I'd been trying.

I have my hair soaking wet with the mixture right now (with a shower cap on my head, topped by a towel turban). I did 2 tbspn of the honey in 3/4 cup distilled water.
I'll probably spray more on in an hour if it's dried out... I have plenty of it left since my hair is so short.

magpielaura
November 14th, 2008, 06:16 AM
I have a honey treatment on:

1 tbspn honey (sainsbury's basics)
1/2 tbspn EVOO
1 tbspn ground cardamom
6 tbspn purified water

This is appied to ears up only, an smt type mix on the length (I described how in a previous post)
This loose pasty mix was the messiest yet to apply...It went eveywhere! I've had it on for about 2 hours, I'll wash it off with condishoner shortly.

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 07:05 AM
I'm trying again here. I came across a really dark honey at the little health food store off base. It says its tropical honey from Brazil and Hawaii.
I'm curious to see if I'll get a more noticeable result from this, since its a mixed honey, and dark.
Not sure if it's anything to go off of, but it doesn't taste quite as sweet as the normal honeys I'd been trying.

I have my hair soaking wet with the mixture right now (with a shower cap on my head, topped by a towel turban). I did 2 tbspn of the honey in 3/4 cup distilled water.
I'll probably spray more on in an hour if it's dried out... I have plenty of it left since my hair is so short.

Your recipe sounds fine. I would try to find a swim cap for the covering if you can. If you need to rewet, do so within a small amount of time because the total recommended treament time is 1 hour. You can also boost the recipe with spice (ground cinnamon or cardamom and a bit of oil). If you want, you can mist uncovered hair but do it frequently during the hour. The hair needs to be very, evenly wet for 1 hour at a time at least.

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 07:09 AM
I have a honey treatment on:

1 tbspn honey (sainsbury's basics)
1/2 tbspn EVOO
1 tbspn ground cardamom
6 tbspn purified water

This is appied to ears up only, an smt type mix on the length (I described how in a previous post)
This loose pasty mix was the messiest yet to apply...It went eveywhere! I've had it on for about 2 hours, I'll wash it off with condishoner shortly.

I am unsure of what you mean by purified water. Distilled or deionized water is recommended because of the lack of minerals, and distilled water has the right pH of 7. Your tap water purified, may be fine, they all vary. Good luck!

FancyHair
November 14th, 2008, 07:20 AM
my water has a ph 7-9, can i use it for the honey ? has anybody a allergic to pollen and have problems to use the honey for lighting? i did a test strand with some hairs from my brush with tomato paste and oil and i think the hair was lighter and little bit red-gold-blond..... but the strand was in that mix for over 3 hours... to have it 3 hours on my head..hmm... i m not sure if that will be a "good" feeling... for my scalp...

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 07:34 AM
my water has a ph 7-9, can i use it for the honey ? has anybody a allergic to pollen and have problems to use the honey for lighting? i did a test strand with some hairs from my brush with tomato paste and oil and i think the hair was lighter and little bit red-gold-blond..... but the strand was in that mix for over 3 hours... to have it 3 hours on my head..hmm... i m not sure if that will be a "good" feeling... for my scalp...

Distilled or deionized water is recommended because of the lack of minerals and distilled water because of it being pH 7. It depends on the mineral content of your tap water. If you are unsure I suggest distilled water or try your tap water once and see how it goes.

There have not been any reports of an allergic reaction to honey but everyone is different and you have particular allergies. You can patch test a honey to see how you might react. Pollen contents in honey vary with the honey.

Tomato products contain Vitamin C and are no longer recommended for honey lightening but they do have a peroxide value that would be lowered by the Vitamin C content within them. You may be able to lighten your hair somewhat with one, used separately from a honey lightening treatment, if you react to honey. Tomato paste has a higher Vitamin C content than tomato sauce. A double or triple tomato past can lighten hair but then cause it to redarken, not because of peroxide but the Vtamin C content and what is called a redox reaction. That means that the colour temporarily is lightened then oxidizes back to the original colour, although sometimes not all of the way back.

FancyHair
November 14th, 2008, 07:46 AM
i used triple tomato past (incl a little bit salt) and sure oil...hmm redarken sounds not sooo good..cause i want lighter hair ... so sauce will be better, cause less vitamin c but wont really lighten the hair right?

i will try it with my normal water only in the roots..so nothing will be on my scalp and a allergic reaction can not come..

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 07:48 AM
Vitamin C containing ingredients not recommended to be included in a honey lightening recipe or under (covered by a honey lightening treatment on hair as leave-ins) are; tomato products, aloe vera gel, lemon juice. Flax seed gel is not recommended as well because it may negatively react with hydrogen peroxide in a recipe.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted (the amount is lowered or reduced) in doing so.

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening because it can contain ingredients that interfere with lightening and its pH is too acidic.

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 08:03 AM
i used triple tomato past (incl a little bit salt) and sure oil...hmm redarken sounds not sooo good..cause i want lighter hair ... so sauce will be better, cause less vitamin c but wont really lighten the hair right?

i will try it with my normal water only in the roots..so nothing will be on my scalp and a allergic reaction can not come..

Tomato sauce has not been reported to lighten hair much on its own.

The same principle applies to honeys that naturally contain higher amounts of Vitamin C. The peroxide is depleted once the honey is diluted. Most honeys contain only very small, negligible amounts of Vitamin C. The honeys to be avoided are; Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Chestnut honey is high in minerals and should be avoided too. Minerals also deplete hydrogen peroxide levels.

Here is a detailed post on honey lightening, with explanations.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 08:10 AM
FancyHair

If you do react to honey and more than one, I suggest that you try a vegan recipe from here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=289520&postcount=2334

magpielaura
November 14th, 2008, 08:10 AM
I am unsure of what you mean by purified water. Distilled or deionized water is recommended because of the lack of minerals, and distilled water has the right pH of 7. Your tap water purified, may be fine, they all vary. Good luck!
I asked for distilled in the pharmacy and this is what they gave me. Not much info on the bottle, so I don't know how it was purified.

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 08:14 AM
I asked for distilled in the pharmacy and this is what they gave me. Not much info on the bottle, so I don't know how it was purified.

Interesting, IMO, they should state what it is in terms of purification. It may be deionized. I hate little to no information on labels.

Have a look at this, since you are in the UK.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369

gallows_gallery
November 14th, 2008, 10:00 AM
For anybody outside of Australia who wants to get hold of jarrah honey:

I live in Western Australia and would be happy to buy and send some. It would be way cheaper than ordering it through a website. There's about 10 jarrah honeys just at my local supermarket to choose from all for about AU$4-9

I think you can buy entire bulk buckets of jarrah for $15

I've had really noticeable results with it! If anybody is interested let me know :)

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 10:03 AM
For anybody outside of Australia who wants to get hold of jarrah honey:

I live in Western Australia and would be happy to buy and send some. It would be way cheaper than ordering it through a website. There's about 10 jarrah honeys just at my local supermarket to choose from all for about AU$4-9

I think you can buy entire bulk buckets of jarrah for $15

If anybody is interested let me know :)

That is very sweet and generous of you.

You are so lucky to have such access to Jarah honey. There was concern earlier this year, that there would be a Jarrah honey shortage. The trees only bloom once every 2 years but this year, they bloomed twice, the second time after a frost that prevented much of a crop for the bees to access.

gallows_gallery
November 14th, 2008, 10:08 AM
Haha yes I am very fortunate to live in WA - and that's interesting about the blossoming.

My house is full of jarrah furniture - it's extremely dense, heavy deep reddish wood. Really beautiful. If you travel down south here there are loads of little workshops and places open to the public that sell everything jarrah - furniture, foodstuffs, etc.

Are there many other types of exclusively Australian honey with high peroxide that you know of ktani? The shops near me sell a whole range of native Australian plant ones - red gum honey, (something) bush honey etc. The redgum honey looks reallllly dark?

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 10:13 AM
Haha yes I am very fortunate to live in WA - and that's interesting about the blossoming.

My house is full of jarrah furniture - it's extremely dense, heavy deep reddish wood. Really beautiful. If you travel down south here there are loads of little workshops and places open to the public that sell everything jarrah - furniture, foodstuffs, etc.

Are there many other types of exclusively Australian honey with high peroxide that you know of ktani? The shops near me sell a whole range of native Australian plant ones - red gum honey, (something) bush honey etc.

Yes, when I was researching to make sure of Jarrah honey availability, and found the references to the possible shortage and predicted price increase because of it, other honeys were mentioned. In my post on Jarrah honey, the 2 sources mention other honeys but not specifically in terms of high peroxide values. Red gum honey was also found to be effective as an antibacterial honey and that is due to its peroxide value. Jarrah honey though, is the only one I found, where it was stated how much more peroxide it has than manuka honey.

gallows_gallery
November 14th, 2008, 10:22 AM
Next time I'm at the shops I'll take note of some of the other kinds.

This is the brand I've been using (there's a photo on their products page of the massive jar of dark jarrah honey)

http://www.elixirrawhoney.com.au/index.php/Honey/

"West Australian blossoms WA native bush includes jarrah, red gum, wandoo, flooded gum, banksia, grevillea, hakea and wildflower. Bees flock to this flora and make a distinctive and delicious honey from them."

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 10:27 AM
This pdf is a little awkward but talks about different Australian honeys and their antibacterial content.
http://www.uq.edu.au/~gabdarcy/honey/honeyfoodormedicine.pdf

Here is the html version, which is also a little hard to read in certain places.
http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:0d20l68ot1YJ:www.uq.edu.au/~gabdarcy/honey/honeyfoodormedicinebw6.pdf+redgum+honey+peroxide&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=ca

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 10:37 AM
Next time I'm at the shops I'll take note of some of the other kinds.

This is the brand I've been using (there's a photo on their products page of the massive jar of dark jarrah honey)

http://www.elixirrawhoney.com.au/index.php/Honey/

"West Australian blossoms WA native bush includes jarrah, red gum, wandoo, flooded gum, banksia, grevillea, hakea and wildflower. Bees flock to this flora and make a distinctive and delicious honey from them."

Red gum is a eucalyptus honey as well, from what I understand.

It is funny when I read that link because it stated what I said earlier in the thread about Jarrah honey from the research, in terms of its colour. Although Alley Cat found when she ordered from one of those 2 suppliers in the link I provide, that the Jarrah honey she received was dark in colour, not all Jarrah honey is dark. That IMO does not matter. Most Jarrah honeys have been shown to have very high peroxide levels.

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 11:04 AM
Just to clarify this, from the research I read, dark coloured honey blends, were reported to have higher peroxide values than light coloured blends.

But a single source dark coloured honey does not necessarily have a high peroxide value. It depends on the honey.

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 02:14 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

lwines
November 14th, 2008, 04:57 PM
Do you if the process has been done on african american hair??




Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
November 14th, 2008, 05:10 PM
Do you if the process has been done on african american hair??

The process can be done on any type of hair and has not been reported to be damaging.

This is from last year with the old recipes. The new ones work faster and better based on reports.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=242452&postcount=2011

ktani
November 15th, 2008, 08:31 AM
A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link. 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_.of_measures/honey_measurements.html
According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Information on ground cinnamon can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314
Information on ground cardamom can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.
None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883
Store your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90% water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out. If there is honey residue, shampoo is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035

12. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095)

nayver
November 15th, 2008, 08:39 AM
Hi Ktani! Do you think the small amount of honey I'm using with my conditioner when washing hair could lighten hair? I would not mind if it lightens a little bit my hair :D

ktani
November 15th, 2008, 08:56 AM
Hi Ktani! Do you think the small amount of honey I'm using with my conditioner when washing hair could lighten hair? I would not mind if it lightens a little bit my hair :D

I think that it is highly unlikely if you are leaving the mix on your hair for a few minutes only.

Honey and conditioner can result in lightening but the odds are not in your favour.

1. The timing. You would need an hour on the hair minimum.

2. Some conditioners contain ingredients that interfere with lightening.

3. The dilution. Conditioners do contain water but that varies.

4. Conditioners are acidic. So is honey. You are not getting the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide, which is 6.

All of that is why conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening.

That said, if you increase the timing you can get some lightening but it is likely to be very gradual at best.

ktani
November 15th, 2008, 10:57 AM
How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

nayver
November 15th, 2008, 04:30 PM
I think that it is highly unlikely if you are leaving the mix on your hair for a few minutes only.

Honey and conditioner can result in lightening but the odds are not in your favour.

1. The timing. You would need an hour on the hair minimum.

2. Some conditioners contain ingredients that interfere with lightening.

3. The dilution. Conditioners do contain water but that varies.

4. Conditioners are acidic. So is honey. You are not getting the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide, which is 6.

All of that is why conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening.

That said, if you increase the timing you can get some lightening but it is likely to be very gradual at best.

Thank you Ktani! I think I will try again with the complete treatment.

ktani
November 15th, 2008, 04:41 PM
Thank you Ktani! I think I will try again with the complete treatment.

You are most welcome.

It depends on what you want.

1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water should give you less drips and covered, while completely wet, can yield some good lightening.

Your hair lightened from natural black to red last time in places, after only 2 treatments.

I would skip the mullein and chamomile tea that you used and just use honey and distilled water and if you want to try to push your colour further, add some spice and oil, after patch testing the spice. A swim cap should help too. You can also just mist your hair, uncovered, during the 1 hour time.

Rinse or wash out any flax seed gel that is on your hair as a leave-in, before you apply the treatment.

ktani
November 15th, 2008, 04:42 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

nayver
November 15th, 2008, 05:02 PM
You are most welcome.

It depends on what you want.

1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water should give you less drips and covered, while completely wet, can yield some good lightening.

Your hair lightened from natural black to red last time in places, after only 2 treatments.

I would skip the mullein and chamomile tea that you used and just use honey and distilled water and if you want to try to push your colour further, add some spice and oil, after patch testing the spice. A swim cap should help too. You can also just mist your hair, uncovered, during the 1 hour time.

Rinse or wash out any flax seed gel that is on your hair as a leave-in, before you apply the treatment.

I'm not using flax seed gel everyday, thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to have my hair clean of oils and other stuff. :)

ktani
November 15th, 2008, 05:08 PM
I'm not using flax seed gel everyday, thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to have my hair clean of oils and other stuff. :)

Great!

Flax seed gel is incompatible with strong oxidizers. Hydrogen peroxide is considered to be a moderately strong oxidizer, so flax seed gel counts as a leave-in to be avoided as well as aloe vera gel or a left-in lemon juice rinse (with a treatment applied over it). Flax seed gel will not necessarily lower the peroxide level, as the Vitamin C in aloe vera gel or lemon juice can, but it may interact with peroxide, to result in a negative effect, IMO.

ktani
November 16th, 2008, 08:11 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
November 16th, 2008, 08:12 AM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH.

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
November 16th, 2008, 11:50 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
November 16th, 2008, 11:56 AM
Long soaks and vinegar rinses have also been used to help with honey residue but the worst cases have been resolved with shampooing, from reports.

A honey lightening recipe can be CO'd (conditioner only) washed out of the hair.

A honey lightening recipe can be applied to wet or dry unwashed hair if there is no residue, a lot of oil or certain leav-ins on the hair. Leave-ins to be rinsed or washed off first are; aloe vera gel, flax seed gel and a lemon or other Vitamin C containing rinse.

lwines
November 16th, 2008, 12:14 PM
From what I've read, I plan to do the following

mix 3/4 distilled water
2 TBS honey
1 TBS oilve oil

let sit at room temp

take before photos of clean hair

apply to hair and cover with a plastic cap for one hour
shampoo

take after photos

after applying the cap, do you need to mist the hair with water to keep it wet?

can I apply to freshly washed/still wet hair without messing up the dillution/ratio?

thanks for all your your help (I'm on info overload after reading so much about it) :)

ktani
November 16th, 2008, 12:23 PM
From what I've read, I plan to do the following

mix 3/4 distilled water
2 TBS honey
1 TBS oilve oil

let sit at room temp

take before photos of clean hair

apply to hair and cover with a plastic cap for one hour
shampoo

take after photos

after applying the cap, do you need to mist the hair with water to keep it wet?

can I apply to freshly washed/still wet hair without messing up the dillution/ratio?

thanks for all your your help (I'm on info overload after reading so much about it) :)

You are most welcome. It can be a lot of information to absorb, at first.

Your recipe sounds fine, as does your method. 3/4 cup distilled water is a US measurement = 1/2 cup in Metric measurement, or 6 oz.

Adding the spice ground (powdered) cardamom, after patch testing, will boost the recipe peroxide value even more (for your recipe, I recommend 1 tablespoon), as it has the highest peroxide value of any of the honey lightening boosters. If you react to it, you can use ground cinnamon after patch testing it. McCormicks ground cardamom is relatively inexpensive, and has not been reported to be problematic but anyone can be allergic to anything. Ground cardamom has been reported to be more easily washed out of the hair than ground cinnamon and has only had one reported sensitivity reaction, compared to several with ground cinnamon.

I recommend a swim cap for honey lightening because it can be, with a chin strap, more secure in helping the hair stay wet, IMO.

No, you do not need to rewet the hair once it is covered, unless parts of it start to dry. Plastic and shower caps have been reported not to be secure and parts of the hair have started to dry, in which case rewetting is necessary. You can check on your hair during the hour, without disturbing it too much, to see if that is happening.

An alternative, is to leave the hair uncovered, with a towel wrapped around your shoulders, and mist the hair constantly, during the hour. Constantly, is important, with that method, IMO.

No, wet hair will not affect the dilution ratio of a honey lightening treatment, IMO. Squeeze out the excess water before application, but even so, it should not be a problem.

ktani
November 16th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide value than olive oil and coconut oil. However, on the market there are blends of olive oil and extra virgin olive oil. For honey lightening, try to find extra virgin olive oil that is not a blend.

ktani
November 16th, 2008, 10:58 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

nayver
November 17th, 2008, 03:32 AM
Ktani, I'm trying this morning. I have mixed one tablespoon of honey and four of distilled water. I'll be leaving it for one hour. The difference now is that one month ago I put on a brown semi permanent dye and it turned out a black. So, I think the process will require more applications. I'll post the results as soon as I can.

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 04:48 AM
Ktani, I'm trying this morning. I have mixed one tablespoon of honey and four of distilled water. I'll be leaving it for one hour. The difference now is that one month ago I put on a brown semi permanent dye and it turned out a black. So, I think the process will require more applications. I'll post the results as soon as I can.

nayver

For 1 tablespoon honey it is 6 tablespoons distilled water, you are 2 short. Also I would add a booster oil, 1/2 tablespoon evoo, if you can. You are using the old dilution, not the new one.

I would go for 2 tablespoons honey, 6 oz of distilled water (1/2 cup Metric or 12 tablespoons), 1/2 to 1 tablespoon evoo and 1 tablespoon cardamom, after patch testing.

nayver
November 17th, 2008, 05:14 AM
I'm reading too late :( I'll try again on Wednesday with the recipe you gave me. I'm waiting my hair to dry to see if there is any difference. Thank you so much for your help.

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 05:21 AM
I'm reading too late :( I'll try again on Wednesday with the recipe you gave me. I'm waiting my hair to dry to see if there is any difference. Thank you so much for your help.

You are most welcome.

There may be some difference, it depends on the honey. This way you have time to test patch the cardamom.

nayver
November 17th, 2008, 05:52 AM
You are most welcome.

There may be some difference, it depends on the honey. This way you have time to test patch the cardamom.


Perhaps it is my imagination, but I see changes in my color. I'll take a picture to compare :)

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 06:02 AM
Perhaps it is my imagination, but I see changes in my color. I'll take a picture to compare :)

You are not necessarily imagining things, lol. The honey you used may be a good peroxide producer and have a higher pH than the average honey.

Please do post a picture. How is the condition of your hair?

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 06:13 AM
nayver

The average honey has a pH much lower than 6. Some honeys do have a pH of 6, which means that you can use a lower dilution than the new one. The only way to know would be to test the pH of your honey and distilled water at different concentrations. You can buy pH test strips that will give you the pH.

nayver
November 17th, 2008, 07:42 AM
Hi Ktani! It was not my imagination! It is not very noticeable but I think my color is changing. I already cardamom and I'm trying again...tomorrow.

About the condition of my hair I don't notice anything weird. Hair is soft, I think honey is a good treatment for my hair.

Tonight or early tomorrow I'll be posting my first pics.

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 07:46 AM
Hi Ktani! It was not my imagination! It is not very noticeable but I think my color is changing. I already cardamom and I'm trying again...tomorrow.

About the condition of my hair I don't notice anything weird. Hair is soft, I think honey is a good treatment for my hair.

Tonight or early tomorrow I'll be posting my first pics.

Great news on the condition of your hair. Last time, your hair was dry and your ends stiff. That may have been the honey and/or the mullein and chamomile tea combination. This honey left no bothersome residue for you. Excellent!

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 03:32 PM
nayver

The boards got busy and I could not get back in for a few hours and then I had to go out. I wanted to add that I am very pleased for you that you also got a start to some lightening, even with the recipe you used.

nayver
November 17th, 2008, 03:56 PM
nayver

The boards got busy and I could not get back in for a few hours and then I had to go out. I wanted to add that I am very pleased for you that you also got a start to some lightening, even with the recipe you used.

Ktani, what about cinnamon?? I don't think I have time to grind enough seeds for tomorrow. Thanks

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 04:07 PM
Ktani, what about cinnamon?? I don't think I have time to grind enough seeds for tomorrow. Thanks

Cinnamon is fine. Patch test it though and do not use too much (1 tablespoon for the recipe I recommended). You can grind the cardamom seeds with a motar and pestle, too. It should only take a few minutes, if that.

nayver
November 17th, 2008, 04:22 PM
Ktani I'll use tomorrow only cinnamon, for I don't have a mortar and pestle. Tomorrow I'll let you now.

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 04:25 PM
Ktani I'll use tomorrow only cinnamon, for I don't have a mortar and pestle. Tomorrow I'll let you now.

Whatever is easiest for you. Add the gound cinnamon to the distilled water after the honey, for a smoother solution.

nayver
November 17th, 2008, 04:51 PM
Before first use. Hair with bleached highlights covered by a semi permanent brown dye.

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/2227/p1040339smp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/p1040339smp3.jpg/1/w480.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img359/p1040339smp3.jpg/1/)

After first use with two different lights

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2197/p1040342wn9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/p1040342wn9.jpg/1/w513.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img241/p1040342wn9.jpg/1/)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7533/p1040343po9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/p1040343po9.jpg/1/w578.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img265/p1040343po9.jpg/1/)

I know is still very black, but I barely see some red highlights trying to come to the surface :)

ktani
November 17th, 2008, 04:56 PM
Before first use. Hair with bleached highlights covered by a semi permanent brown dye.

http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/2227/p1040339smp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img359.imageshack.us/img359/p1040339smp3.jpg/1/w480.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img359/p1040339smp3.jpg/1/)

After first use with two different lights

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2197/p1040342wn9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/p1040342wn9.jpg/1/w513.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img241/p1040342wn9.jpg/1/)

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7533/p1040343po9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/p1040343po9.jpg/1/w578.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img265/p1040343po9.jpg/1/)

I know is still very black, but I barely see some red highlights trying to come to the surface :)

Thank you so much for the pictures!

Lighting is so tricky sometimes. In cases like this, with different views and tones, ask those around you what if any difference they notice. From the first after picture, your hair does not appear to be that dark at all to me.

gallows_gallery
November 18th, 2008, 12:11 AM
I've officially finished my honey lightening (for now) - I've run out of honey hahaha.

In total I did 4 beechworth honey, and 5 jarrah honey treatments using cinnamon or cardamom, and sometimes olive oil.

My observations on hair condition:

The first one or two times I did the treatment, there was a 4-5 day gap in between, where my hair would be oiled and not washed. After I washed these ones out, my hair was in the best condition - very soft and sleek.

When I was doing the last 5 treatments in such quick succession (one every day or every second day) my hair was pretty bad afterwards - crunchy and tacky feeling, no shine, almost fluffy, and dull.

I honestly think the latter condition was because of all the shampooing - not the honey. It took a a good 2-3 shampoos then 2 conditions to get the whole mixuture out every time, and I was doing this almost every day.

Now I haven't washed it in 3 days, there's a bit of coconut oil in it, and it's back to its normal, silky and kind of "heavy", shiny self.

So my experience: if you're home being a bum studying or have nothing on, honey as much as you want...but if you've got somewhere to go, leave at least two days between treatments, because all the washing really dries/dulls your hair.

P.S. I will post comparison photos soon, when I have a moment to think about hair, not equity and trust law :'(

nayver
November 18th, 2008, 02:36 AM
nayver

For 1 tablespoon honey it is 6 tablespoons distilled water, you are 2 short. Also I would add a booster oil, 1/2 tablespoon evoo, if you can. You are using the old dilution, not the new one.

I would go for 2 tablespoons honey, 6 oz of distilled water (1/2 cup Metric or 12 tablespoons), 1/2 to 1 tablespoon evoo and 1 tablespoon cardamom, after patch testing.

Ktani I'm trying this recipe this morning. Instead of cardamom (I have to buy the mortar and pestle) I'm using ground cinnamon. I put it on my dry hair, since I'm washing afterwards. I'm posting after my hair is completely dry.

ktani
November 18th, 2008, 06:06 AM
Ktani I'm trying this recipe this morning. Instead of cardamom (I have to buy the mortar and pestle) I'm using ground cinnamon. I put it on my dry hair, since I'm washing afterwards. I'm posting after my hair is completely dry.

Sounds fine. What are you covering your hair with or are you misting uncovered hair?

nayver
November 18th, 2008, 07:38 AM
I'm covering my hair with a plastic hair wrap. Misting if neccesary. I'll take a picture tonight to show you.

ktani
November 18th, 2008, 07:51 AM
I'm covering my hair with a plastic hair wrap. Misting if neccesary. I'll take a picture tonight to show you.

Great, thanks. You have that covered (pun intended) too.

I thought, from your results so far this time and your previous results as well, that the covering was not an issue for you but I was curious.

ktani
November 18th, 2008, 10:11 AM
I am repeating this because the biggest problems lately, have been these issues.

Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

nayver
November 18th, 2008, 11:54 AM
If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.


I didn't know that! Next time I'll let it sit for an hour and then leave it on my hair for another hour.

ktani
November 18th, 2008, 02:19 PM
I didn't know that! Next time I'll let it sit for an hour and then leave it on my hair for another hour.

The reseach on which I based the new dilution says that the method used (leaving a honey with that dilution sit for one hour whether in advance or on the hair), a honey will produce its maximum peroxide level.

The original idea of doing both was to help speed up the process and make a treatment on the hair less of a problem in terms of being covered. It turns out though, that regardless of which way a person uses a treatment, the hair must be kept very wet at all times while on the hair, based on reported results.

In other research, different honeys reached their maximum peroxide level at different times (in a different dilution) but the honeys in question were all buffered and adjusted with chemicals, to a pH of 6.

Reports with the new dilution have been very positive in terms of results, and indicate to me that 1 hour on the hair is plenty of time per treatment, for excellent results to happen, if they are going to (it depends on the honey and the water).

A large part of the idea of the current recommendations, is to free honey lightening experimenters from having to have a treatment on their hair for endless hours (like they did with previous dilutions) with minimal results.

While there is no problem with leaving a treatment on the hair longer than 1 hour per time, IMO, it does not appear to be necessary with the new dilution, and now it is strictly a matter of personal preference.

nayver
November 18th, 2008, 04:12 PM
Second treatment pics!

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/337/p1040344en4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/p1040344en4.jpg/1/w245.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img266/p1040344en4.jpg/1/)

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/382/p1040347js5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/p1040347js5.jpg/1/w285.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img119/p1040347js5.jpg/1/)

What do you think Ktani?

ktani
November 18th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Second treatment pics!

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/337/p1040344en4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/p1040344en4.jpg/1/w245.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img266/p1040344en4.jpg/1/)

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/382/p1040347js5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/p1040347js5.jpg/1/w285.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img119/p1040347js5.jpg/1/)

What do you think Ktani?

I think that your hair is definitely lighter but I think it would really help others and you to get a better idea if ...

1. You identified the first picture, which I believe is your before this round of honey lightening picture and

2. If you can more closely duplicate the lighting in the first picture.

What is the feedback from those around you on your hair colour now?

nayver
November 18th, 2008, 04:30 PM
I think that your hair is definitely lighter but I think it would really help others and you to get a better idea if ...

1. You identified the first picture, which I believe is your before this round of honey lightening picture and

2. If you can more closely duplicate the lighting in the first picture.

What is the feedback from those around you on your hair colour now?

Thanks for the quick answer. The two pictures are after the treatment, but taken with two different lights. I haven't told anyone about my experiment, and I think it's early to be noticed.

ktani
November 18th, 2008, 04:40 PM
Thanks for the quick answer. The two pictures are after the treatment, but taken with two different lights. I haven't told anyone about my experiment, and I think it's early to be noticed.

So, if I understand you correctly, both of these pictures are after the same 2nd treatment.

If a colour change is noticable, someone in real life will comment in my experience, whether you tell them what you have been doing or not.

I suggest that you keep using this honey for a bit, as it is not causing problems for you and play with the spices. But please do patch test the cardamom.

nayver
November 18th, 2008, 04:48 PM
So, if I understand you correctly, both of these pictures are after the same 2nd treatment.

If a colour change is noticable, someone in real life will comment in my experience, whether you tell them what you have been doing or not.

I suggest that you keep using this honey for a bit, as it is not causing problems for you and play with the spices. But please do patch test the cardamom.

I'll try to do it at least five more times. I will use cinnamon until the jar is over :) and after that I will play with cardamom. I'll let you know any advance.

ktani
November 18th, 2008, 04:55 PM
I'll try to do it at least five more times. I will use cinnamon until the jar is over :) and after that I will play with cardamom. I'll let you know any advance.

I suggest going for the cardamom, and alternate or mix it with the cinnamon as soon as you can. 5 more treatments is 5 more hours minimum.

Or take up this offer and get a honey with the highest peroxide value that I know of for honey lightening.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=344655&postcount=2826

ktani
November 18th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Jarrah honey is known to have a very high peroxide value.

“WA scientists claim jarrah honey benefit
Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average .... But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf

see "Comparing Different Types of Honey" - date 2008
" .... Jarrah honey .... contains higher amounts of glucose oxidase .... "
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

Glucose oxidase is the enzyme in honey that generates hydrogen peroxide.

Jarrah honey suppliers I found and contacted - prices and shipping costs vary as will stock amounts. There are no doubt more suppliers out there - this to start you off. As more are reported, I will add them to this list.

International shipping will be noted with an asterisk *.

*1. Their price list and they report Jarrah honey in stock. They do ship internationally.
Prices
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html)
Contact page
http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html)

*2. Yes to Jarrah honey in stock and they ship internationally. This one seems to be fast on replies to inquiries.
Contact page
http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm)
Order page with prices
http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm)

ktani
November 19th, 2008, 10:20 AM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with the unstabilized hydrogen peroxide (as opposed to the stabilized conventional kind) of a honey lightening recipe and can deplete or negatively interact with the peroxide levels.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
November 19th, 2008, 02:04 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
November 20th, 2008, 11:46 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

Heidi_234
November 20th, 2008, 03:42 PM
Ktani, a question for you.
I henna my hair once every months for years now. I tried to do a honey lightening treatment with the new dilution you recommended, adding EVOO and ground Cinnamon as booster but I yielded no results.
I wish to lighten my hair despite the henna, so I thought of something. Could I do the honey recipe (i.e. dilute the honey, wait an hour) and then, right before applying to the hair, add lemon juice?
I know lemon juice is drying but would it interfere with the honey lightening process?

ktani
November 20th, 2008, 03:56 PM
Ktani, a question for you.
I henna my hair once every months for years now. I tried to do a honey lightening treatment with the new dilution you recommended, adding EVOO and ground Cinnamon as booster but I yielded no results.
I wish to lighten my hair despite the henna, so I thought of something. Could I do the honey recipe (i.e. dilute the honey, wait an hour) and then, right before applying to the hair, add lemon juice?
I know lemon juice is drying but would it interfere with the honey lightening process?

I am sorry that you did not get lightening results with the recipe and method you used.

If you used the new dilution, distilled water and either covered your hair securely or misted it uncovered, you may want to try a different honey. Some honeys produce little peroxide.

Lemon juice contains Vitamin C, which will deplete or lower the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe. Do not use it either on the hair unrinsed out, or with honey lightening.

ktani
November 20th, 2008, 03:59 PM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
November 20th, 2008, 04:00 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

Heidi_234
November 20th, 2008, 04:21 PM
It might be possible that the honey is weak peroxide producer, I use local productions and have no information about them in these matters.
Does Vitamin C prevent the peroxide from working? Did I understood you right?

nayver
November 20th, 2008, 04:51 PM
Hi Ktani! I think my hair is definitely lighter! Well, my old highlights are more visible. It means the semi permanent almost black dye is disappearing. Tomorrow I'll make my third treatment (second with the new dilution) and I'll let you know.

ktani
November 20th, 2008, 05:06 PM
It might be possible that the honey is weak peroxide producer, I use local productions and have no information about them in these matters.
Does Vitamin C prevent the peroxide from working? Did I understood you right?

Almost. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. If you use Vitamin C in a honey lightening recipe, you will have a lower peroxide level than if you did not use it.

I just realized that you are experimenting with soap nuts, which contain Vitamin C. No problem, I think. Just rinse your hair thoroughly, before using a honey lightening treatment on wet or dry hair after using them.

ktani
November 20th, 2008, 05:08 PM
Hi Ktani! I think my hair is definitely lighter! Well, my old highlights are more visible. It means the semi permanent almost black dye is disappearing. Tomorrow I'll make my third treatment (second with the new dilution) and I'll let you know.

That is fantastic news! You go girl!

Isabellla
November 20th, 2008, 05:32 PM
I did my first honey treatment 2 days ago, just on my roots. I want to do my roots 3-4 times before doing my whole head. How soon can I do anther treatment? I am taking photos and I am using tap water with the proper dilution. I have completely virgin hair.

ktani
November 20th, 2008, 05:42 PM
I did my first honey treatment 2 days ago, just on my roots. I want to do my roots 3-4 times before doing my whole head. How soon can I do anther treatment? I am taking photos and I am using tap water with the proper dilution. I have completely virgin hair.

I really suggest that you switch to distilled water, depending on your results. Good luck!

Here are the links you need.

how often a treatment can be used
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=287574&postcount=2323

tap water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=322099&postcount=2547

roots only
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=296249&postcount=2371

all from the first post of this thread.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 07:29 AM
Almost. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. If you use Vitamin C in a honey lightening recipe, you will have a lower peroxide level than if you did not use it.

I just realized that you are experimenting with soap nuts, which contain Vitamin C. No problem, I think. Just rinse your hair thoroughly, before using a honey lightening treatment on wet or dry hair after using them.

Oh I see.
Thanks for the heads up about the soapnuts. I used them maybe once, and it wasn't the same wash I did before the honey lightening I tried.
I wonder if there's anything else I can to lighten my hair except chemical bleaching.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 07:49 AM
Oh I see.
Thanks for the heads up about the soapnuts. I used them maybe once, and it wasn't the same wash I did before the honey lightening I tried.
I wonder if there's anything else I can to lighten my hair except chemical bleaching.

Honey lightening can work on hennaed hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=290516&postcount=2339

Beore you dismiss it altogether, go over what you did and what you used to see if maybe you missed something or try a different honey.

Sometimes, it has been a relatively small change that has made a big difference in results. Here is the first post with most of the links you will need.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 08:17 AM
Honey lightening can work on hennaed hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=290516&postcount=2339

Beore you dismiss it altogether, go over what you did and what you used to see if maybe you missed something or try a different honey.

Sometimes, it has been a relatively small change that has made a big difference in results. Here is the first post with most of the links you will need.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

To be frank, I'm afraid the change in color for those who clained it worked for them is not as much as I need. I really don't want to bleach, it's LHC suicide. Thanks anyway.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 08:28 AM
To be frank, I'm afraid the change in color for those who clained it worked for them is not as much as I need. I really don't want to bleach, it's LHC suicide. Thanks anyway.

How light do you want to go? I understand how you feel about the lightening you see but honey lightening is not about removing henna. It is about lightening it and that can take time.

There have been one or two cases where henna has been successfuly lightened to a great degree with conventional peroxide, without too much damage, used very slowly and carefully. If not yes, it is hair suicide.

If you go that route, caution is advised but this thread may help and it is possible.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 11:07 AM
How light do you want to go? I understand how you feel about the lightening you see but honey lightening is not about removing henna. It is about lightening it and that can take time.

There have been one or two cases where henna has been successfuly lightened to a great degree with conventional peroxide, without too much damage, used very slowly and carefully. If not yes, it is hair suicide.

If you go that route, caution is advised but this thread may help and it is possible.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495
I don't want to remove the henna. But I do want to get my hair light enough so when I can make the henna work for me in full strength to get the red tones, my hair would be light enough so I won't end up with very very dark hair. Even blonds got fairly dark when they reach the reds with henna, so I would most definitely end up really dark and I don't want that.

Thank you alot for the link, you've done so much valuable research there and it's very informative. I'm currently reading it all through.

Oh, and I'm sure this would be interesting for you - This is what my failed honey lightening experience (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=2075&pictureid=25393) looks like.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 11:24 AM
I don't want to remove the henna. But I do want to get my hair light enough so when I can make the henna work for me in full strength to get the red tones, my hair would be light enough so I won't end up with very very dark hair. Even blonds got fairly dark when they reach the reds with henna, so I would most definitely end up really dark and I don't want that.

Thank you alot for the link, you've done so much valuable research there and it's very informative. I'm currently reading it all through.

Oh, and I'm sure this would be interesting for you - This's what my failed honey lightening experience (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=2075&pictureid=25393) looks like.

Thank you .

I have no doubt and I can see that your first attempt has failed to give you the results you want.

I would be happy to go over everything you did and used and the method again, if you think that it may help.

Have a look at these results, after 4 treatments, with adjustments and changes made along the way, (distilled instead of filtered water for example) that finally lightened the multiple layers of henna, in the way that it was wanted.

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 12:00 PM
Thank you .

I have no doubt and I can see that your first attempt has failed to give you the results you want.

I would be happy to go over everything you did and used and the method again, if you think that it may help.

Have a look at these results, after 4 treatments, with adjustments and changes made along the way, (distilled instead of filtered water for example) that finally lightened the multiple layers of henna, in the way that it was wanted.

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651
Thank you.
I've seen this, but it didn't comfort me. Assuming that my color now is as dark as her, to get to shade the shade I need (lighter brown) would take much much more treatments. Something like a week at least everyday honey 'abuse' with back to back treatments, if that's even possible.
Henna is very darkening. I did some asking around, and even burns_erin (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=15212)who got very dark burgundy started off much lighter than me. Blond hair ends up flaming firing red (which is what I aspire for but I'm keeping it real). So if I want any red, flaming or dark, to my hair, I need to lighten my hair much more than LadyPolaris did in her 4 treatments.
I'm afraid that even if I make it do it's best, honey lightening gives results that are just too subtle for me.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 12:04 PM
Thank you.
I've seen this, but it didn't comfort me. Assuming that my color now is as dark as her, to get to shade the shade I need (lighter brown) would take much much more treatments. Something like a week at least everyday honey 'abuse' with back to back treatments, if that's even possible.
Henna is very darkening. I did some asking around, and even burns_erin (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/member.php?u=15212)who got very dark burgundy started off much lighter than me. Blond hair ends up flaming firing red (which is what I aspire for but I'm keeping it real). So if I want any red, flaming or dark, to my hair, I need to lighten my hair much more than LadyPolaris did in her 4 treatments.
I'm afraid that even if I make it do it's best, honey lightening gives results that are just too subtle for me.

Not necessarily at all IMO. If you read the link again, only her last treatment was corrected in terms of the dilution and she had just started to use distilled water.

Everyone's hair is different and honey lightening can take more or less time depending. I have seen and reports have confirmed, that 2 treatments done the right way, have lightened more than 5 done the wrong way.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 12:24 PM
Not necessarily at all IMO. If you read the link again, only her last treatment was corrected in terms of the dilution and she had just started to use distilled water.

Everyone's hair is different and honey lightening can take more or less time depending. I have seen and reports have confirmed, that 2 treatments done the right way, have lightened more than 5 done the wrong way.

I certainly agree with that.
It's hard see the difference between the 3rd and the 4th treatment due to the flash. But you know what, I have nothing to lose here, the honey made my hair feel great, and it's pretty safe treatment.
I don't really remember what I did, but I read the instructions throughoutly and followed them. I know for sure I used distilled water, and added 1 tbs of olive oil and and some ground cinnamon. I did exactly this honey/water ratio like it was written in the post.

1/8 cup honey ... requires 6 oz of distilled water.
I mixed it and let it sit for an hour. I think I used it before going to take a shower, I can't remember for how long (most likely the time you recommended). I wrapped my hair in plastic to keep it wet.
The honey I used is local high quality production made out of wild flowers. I'm not sure if it fits the propose but that's what I had at home at that moment.
Have I done something wrong here?

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 12:33 PM
I certainly agree with that.
It's hard see the difference between the 3rd and the 4th treatment due to the flash. But you know what, I have nothing to lose here, the honey made my hair feel great, and it's pretty safe treatment.
I don't really remember what I did, but I read the instructions throughoutly and followed them. I know for sure I used distilled water, and added 1 tbs of olive oil and and some ground cinnamon. I did exactly this honey/water ratio like it was written in the post.
.
I mixed it and let it sit for an hour. I think I used it before going to take a shower, I can't remember for how long (most likely the time you recommended). I wrapped my hair in plastic to keep it wet.
The honey I used is local high quality production made out of wild flowers. I'm not sure if it fits the propose but that's what I had at home at that moment.
Have I done something wrong here?

Not that I can see so far. It is not necessarily the quality of the honey. It is its ability to produce enough peroxide to lighten hair.

Plastic is one of the recommended coverings, a swim cap (with a chin strap) being the most secure IMO.

You can also constantly mist the hair, uncovered, during a treatment.

Application in terms of evenness (all of the hair being evenly wet) is important too. The minimum time a treatment is to be left on the hair is 1 hour but that is all the time that should be required per treatment IMO.

It also depends on what may or may not be on the hair pretreatment. No leave-ins or residue are recommended.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 12:42 PM
2 honey lightening treatments of just honey and water on virgin hair, wearing a swim cap.
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

The image was there when I posted it. I love these hide and go seek images, lol.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 12:45 PM
Not that I can see so far. It is not necessarily the quality of the honey. It is its ability to produce enough peroxide to lighten hair.

Plastic is one of the recommended coverings, a swim cap (with a chin strap) being the most secure IMO.

You can also constantly mist the hair, uncovered, during a treatment.

Application in terms of evenness (all of the hair being evenly wet) is important too. The minimum time a treatment is to be left on the hair is 1 hour but that is all the time that should be required per treatment IMO.

It also depends on what may or may not be on the hair pretreatment. No leave-ins or residue are recommended.
I think I did left it on for 1 hour, but I have might applied it before washing my hair. Next time, should I wash my hair and then honey lighten it?
I remember I did too much of it, so I soaked it wet and had to squeeze some out and it was still dripping some.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 12:52 PM
I think I did left it on for 1 hour, but I have might applied it before washing my hair. Next time, should I wash my hair and then honey lighten it?
I remember I did too much of it, so I soaked it wet and had to squeeze some out and it was still dripping some.

Honey lightening can be done on unwashed hair but like I said, it depends on what was on it.

Soaking it wet is the whole idea. Do not squeeze out any at all. It can be very drippy.

You can just use 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water with 1 tablespoon cinnamon or cardamom (after patch testing) and 1/2 tablespoon oil.

If you squeezed out more water than you think, that may have severely affected your results.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 01:01 PM
Honey lightening can be done on unwashed hair but like I said, it depends on what was on it.

Soaking it wet is the whole idea. Do not squeeze out any at all. It can be very drippy.

You can just use 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water with 1 tablespoon cinnamon or cardamom (after patch testing) and 1/2 tablespoon oil.

If you squeezed out more water than you think, that may have severely affected your results.
I just gently squeezed some out. It was still dripping. I had a whole bowl of the mix and I dipped my length in it (i intended to lighten my ends mainly, not all my hair). It was dripping wet and all the liquid fell back into the bowl, I had alot of excess liquids, and my hair was soaking wet and dripping even after I squeezed some out. My hair dries very slowly, I'm sure that wasn't the issue.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 01:07 PM
I just gently squeezed some out. It was still dripping. I had a whole bowl of the mix and I dipped my length in it (i intended to lighten my ends mainly, not all my hair). It was dripping wet and all the liquid fell back into the bowl, I had alot of excess liquids, and my hair was soaking wet and dripping even after I squeezed some out. My hair dries very slowly, I'm sure that wasn't the issue.

My hair can dry slowly too but parts of it dry fast, like those on top and closest to the roots. It can be deceptive.

It sounds as if 1/8 cup and 6 oz of distilled water is too much for your hair. How did you apply it?

From one of the 1st post links

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 01:14 PM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 01:16 PM
My hair can dry slowly too but parts of it dry fast, like those on top and closest to the roots. It can be deceptive.

It sounds as if 1/8 cup and 6 oz of distilled water is too much for your hair. How did you apply it?

From one of the 1st post links

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

Since I had too much, and it is very liquid I just dipped my hair into the bowl. As I said I intended to lighten just the ends at first.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 01:18 PM
Since I had too much, and it is very liquid I just dipped my hair into the bowl. As I said I intended to lighten just the ends at first.

You can just use this method for root or section only lightening, even just the ends.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=296249&postcount=2371

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 01:26 PM
Since I had too much, and it is very liquid I just dipped my hair into the bowl. As I said I intended to lighten just the ends at first.

It may just be your honey. Or how wet the hair stayed after you squeezed out the water. I believed you when you said that it was still dripping after being squeezed.

I squeeze out the extra water from my hair when doing a catnip treatment. My hair is still wet enough to drip a but but is not as wet as it would be if I did not squeeze as much.

I am just looking at different possibilities here.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 01:28 PM
You can just use this method for root or section only lightening, even just the ends.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=296249&postcount=2371

I think next time I'm doing a full head application so it's ok.
Is my method bad?

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 01:30 PM
It may just be your honey. Or how wet the hair stayed after you squeezed out the water. I believed you when you said that it was still dripping after being squeezed.

I squeeze out the extra water from my hair when doing a catnip treatment. My hair is still wet enough to drip a but but is not as wet as it would be if I did not squeeze as much.

I am just looking at different possibilities here.
Oh okey.
No I really had too much liquid. I squeezed, and dipped again and squeezed and there was still alot left in the bowl.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 01:31 PM
I think next time I'm doing a full head application so it's ok.
Is my method bad?

No method is bad if it works, lol.

If it does not then it is about looking at the recommended method and seeing what the differences are and the results of those who have used it successfully.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 01:40 PM
No method is bad if it works, lol.

If it does not then it is about looking at the recommended method and seeing what the differences are and the results of those who have used it successfully.
lol

I think it's the fact that it wasn't pre-washed and it was probably oiled that failed the treatment.
On another note, can my hair be resistant to such treatments? I'm suspecting that my hair might be henna-resistant, because for other people coloring with henna every month would mean dark burgundy after 5 applications or so.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 01:41 PM
Oh okey.
No I really had too much liquid. I squeezed, and dipped again and squeezed and there was still alot left in the bowl.

You should have had most of it in your hair, not the bowl but you were using far too much in terms of a recipe, for just the ends.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 01:53 PM
lol

I think it's the fact that it wasn't pre-washed and it was probably oiled that failed the treatment.
On another note, can my hair be resistant to such treatments? I'm suspecting that my hair might be henna-resistant, because for other people coloring with henna every month would mean dark burgundy after 5 applications or so.

Ahh oiled. Ok, oil will or can act as a barrier to water, not what you want here, with a water based treatment.

No, I do not think that you hair is honey lightening resistant. It is the little things that can be overlooked that can be the problem. Too much oil on the hair is one of them. Coconut oil is absorbed into the hair but too much can also sit on top of it, for example. It is about the kind of oil you use as well.

Henna resistant? No to that too. It depends on the henna used, your hair and the method used with that, IMO.

Now you and I are uncovering potential problems. I have been doing my ktani Sherlock Holmes routine, lol and you have been thinking of things other than what you initially thought about. It adds up to good teamwork.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 02:46 PM
Ahh oiled. Ok, oil will or can act as a barrier to water, not what you want here, with a water based treatment.

No, I do not think that you hair is honey lightening resistant. It is the little things that can be overlooked that can be the problem. Too much oil on the hair is one of them. Coconut oil is absorbed into the hair but too much can also sit on top of it, for example. It is about the kind of oil you use as well.

Henna resistant? No to that too. It depends on the henna used, your hair and the method used with that, IMO.

Now you and I are uncovering potential problems. I have been doing my ktani Sherlock Holmes routine, lol and you have been thinking of things other than what you initially thought about. It adds up to good teamwork.

Sorry I've been away for a while.
I'd take you like the Sherlock Holmes thing, always researching and helping others solve out possible problems. :)

I think I'll try to do another honey lightening treatment (can I shorten it to HLT? lol) this week. I'm going CO from now on, so I think I'll wash with soapnuts and rinse well, then do the HLT and after an hour I'll finish my shower with the conditioner and all the rest. Should work, right?

About the honey, I've got a long blog post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/blog.php?b=28814)analyzing what's been going on with my henna. Don't feel obliged to read it. I had made my conclusions, and I'm going to stand test some of them sooner than later.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 02:50 PM
Heidi_234

Here is something else to think about. Henna actually contains more resin than lawsone.

Henna Constituents
"Dried, powdered leaves of henna contain .... 0.5 to 1.5 percent lawsone .... chief constituent responsible for the dyeing properties of the plant ...."
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/med-aro/factsheets/henna.html

Henna resin content - Bureau of Plant Industry - Manilla
".... the leaves also contain about 2 per cent of a resin."
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5zV6qzd1hSIJ:www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/pdf/s/sinamono.pdf+hennatannic+acid+resinous&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca

By hennaing every month, you may not be letting enough resin wash out between use to help much penetrate your hair. People can get dryness from henna at first. I have read that chamomile tea in the mix alleviates that but the hair usually requires oiling afterward, or a leave-in of some sort.

The resin may also be interfering with honey lightening, depending on how soon after a henna, you are trying to lighten.

Very soon after a henna, an SMT or just deep conditioning can remove unbound henna, that has not yet bound to hair keratin.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 03:04 PM
Heidi_234

Here is something else to think about. Henna actually contains more resin than lawsone.

Henna Constituents
"Dried, powdered leaves of henna contain .... 0.5 to 1.5 percent lawsone .... chief constituent responsible for the dyeing properties of the plant ...."
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/med-aro/factsheets/henna.html

Henna resin content - Bureau of Plant Industry - Manilla
".... the leaves also contain about 2 per cent of a resin."
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5zV6qzd1hSIJ:www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/pdf/s/sinamono.pdf+hennatannic+acid+resinous&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=ca

By hennaing every month, you may not be letting enough resin wash out between use to help much penetrate your hair. People can get dryness from henna at first. I have read that chamomile tea in the mix alleviates that but the hair usually requires oiling afterward, or a leave-in of some sort.

The resin may also be interfering with honey lightening, depending on how soon after a henna, you are trying to lighten.

Very soon after a henna, an SMT or just deep conditioning can remove unbound henna, that has not yet bound to hair keratin.

That's interesting. Anywhere I asked I've been told there's no such thing as too much henna. I was even recommended by a person how worked with henna for 30 years to do root touch ups, on top of my monthly full mud on, every week or two to fight the shedding.

How does resin acts? Is that what seals the hair in henna? I never knew that, explains the dryness, although my hair is not that dry after henna anymore, and I'm nor rinsing it out with conditioner, neither putting oil or any leave in the following 3 day until I shower properly.
Intriguing info actually.
Can a clarifying shampoo or baking soda wash out resin?

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 03:12 PM
Sorry I've been away for a while.
I'd take you like the Sherlock Holmes thing, always researching and helping others solve out possible problems. :)

I think I'll try to do another honey lightening treatment (can I shorten it to HLT? lol) this week. I'm going CO from now on, so I think I'll wash with soapnuts and rinse well, then do the HLT and after an hour I'll finish my shower with the conditioner and all the rest. Should work, right?

About the honey, I've got a long blog post (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/blog.php?b=28814)analyzing what's been going on with my henna. Don't feel obliged to read it. I had made my conclusions, and I'm going to stand test some of them sooner than later.

I am ok with you using HLT, although it took me a minute to get it, lol.

I would not use soapnuts as a cleansing method before you honey lighten. I am unsure of its mucilage content and very thorough rinsing is required because of its Vitamin C content.

I did a quick scan of your blog entry. It is very good that you are reading up on henna, the different kinds like baq and different recipes. Honey lightening can lighten baq henna. Your hair being dark will have henna yield a colour all your own.

Do not worry about your response time to my replies. I should be doing other things right now but I wanted to wait and see if you had other questions. My choice.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 03:20 PM
That's interesting. Anywhere I asked I've been told there's no such thing as too much henna. I was even recommended by a person how worked with henna for 30 years to do root touch ups, on top of my monthly full mud on, every week or two to fight the shedding.

How does resin acts? Is that what seals the hair in henna? I never knew that, explains the dryness, although my hair is not that dry after henna anymore, and I'm nor rinsing it out with conditioner, neither putting oil or any leave in the following 3 day until I shower properly.
Intriguing info actually.
Can a clarifying shampoo or baking soda wash out resin?

I have been following various henna threads but not the huge ones.

I remember one, now archived, where someone was full out hennaing every 2 weeks and did get brekage from it. Resin can make hair brittle if overused.

Doing roots only is not a problem, IMO.

For most people, a henna every few weeks is not a problem but it depends on the hair and most people do not do a full henna every month, more like 6 weeks or so, from what I have read.

Resin being a coating, can make the hair less able to absorb other things. It may also depend on the henna quality.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 03:23 PM
I am ok with you using HLT, although it took me a minute to get it, lol.

I would not use soapnuts as a cleansing method before you honey lighten. I am unsure of its mucilage content and very thorough rinsing is required because of its Vitamin C content.

I did a quick scan of your blog entry. It is very good that you are reading up on henna, the different kinds like baq and different recipes. Honey lightening can lighten baq henna. Your hair being dark will have henna yield a colour all your own.

Do not worry about your response time to my replies. I should be doing other things right now but I wanted to wait and see if you had other questions. My choice.

Hmm... I'm out of shampoo, and I don't to use one anymore, my hair doesn't like it, and my scalp does great without it. I'm not sure if a conditioner can dissolve oils.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 03:25 PM
Most shampoo or even COing should be able to wash out henna resin and from reading about the results people get with their henna, the resin does not appear to be a problem, if the henna is not overused.

It was just that one peron who then switched to using henna less frequently, who reported breakage.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 03:29 PM
I have been following various henna threads but not the huge ones.

I remember one, now archived, where someone was full out hennaing every 2 weeks and did get brekage from it. Resin can make hair brittle if overused.

Doing roots only is not a problem, IMO.

For most people, a henna every few weeks is not a problem but it depends on the hair and most people do not do a full henna every month, more like 6 weeks or so, from what I have read.

Resin being a coating, can make the hair less able to absorb other things. It may also depend on the henna quality.

I do think monthly henna is optimal for me. By the end of the month my hair feels as if it need the henna, it turns fine and weak, more prove to dryness and damage.
Well, and most people get darker very quickly if they do full applications every month, so they prefer to avoid that.
It's like it's all opposite for me. So odd.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 03:30 PM
Hmm... I'm out of shampoo, and I don't to use one anymore, my hair doesn't like it, and my scalp does great without it. I'm not sure if a conditioner can dissolve oils.

From what I have read COing does very well to wash out oils. It has been reported to wash out olive oil very well and shampoo can be difficult with that one.

For honey lightening, it is about residue and if you plan to CO often, clarifying may be necessary every so often regardless of what you do in terms of HLT.

Heidi_234
November 21st, 2008, 03:39 PM
From what I have read COing does very well to wash out oils. It has been reported to wash out olive oil very well and shampoo can be difficult with that one.

For honey lightening, it is about residue and if you plan to CO often, clarifying may be necessary every so often regardless of what you do in terms of HLT.
I know, that's what the soapnuts are for. But I can skip them for my pre-HLT-wash. It also might be necessary for me to clarify before henna anyway, using baking soda or something else.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 04:55 PM
I know, that's what the soapnuts are for. But I can skip them for my pre-HLT-wash. It also might be necessary for me to clarify before henna anyway, using baking soda or something else.

There are a few options for clarifying. Baking soda is not my top pick for that but henna users may have a few suggestions.

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 08:17 PM
I am not fond of the idea of abrasives for hair. I would have added another "very" to my comment but I thought that was overkill.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=353843&postcount=15

ktani
November 21st, 2008, 09:42 PM
Baking soda can be dissolved in hot hot water, not warm that easily.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=354107&postcount=18

Heidi_234
November 22nd, 2008, 03:23 AM
There are a few options for clarifying. Baking soda is not my top pick for that but henna users may have a few suggestions.

Well I asked about a clarifying method (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=15627)and I didn't get much of new methods. I also saw girlcat36 saying on multiple occasions that her hair responds well to baking soda.

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 06:53 AM
Well I asked about a clarifying method (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=15627)and I didn't get much of new methods. I also saw girlcat36 saying on multiple occasions that her hair responds well to baking soda.

It does need to be used carefully but a number of people use it and like their results.

There are also very good clarifying shampoos, one of which is Joico Chelating shampoo, while others use organic shampoos. Avalon makes one, a Lemon Clarifying shampoo.

Paula Begoun, a haircare guru, recommends simply buying a shampoo for normal hair without too many additives and using that when needed.

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 07:20 AM
Gladtobemom's comprehensive new thread on clarifying.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=15746

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 08:17 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

plainjanegirl
November 22nd, 2008, 09:32 AM
I have been reading this. Just wanted to mention that Suave has a good clarifying shampoo too. I have had no problems with it.

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 09:53 AM
I have been reading this. Just wanted to mention that Suave has a good clarifying shampoo too. I have had no problems with it.

Hi and welcome back!

Thank you for mentioning the Suave clarifying shampoo. I have read good things about it but it is always better to get a first hand report, IMO.

Heidi_234
November 22nd, 2008, 12:05 PM
It does need to be used carefully but a number of people use it and like their results.

There are also very good clarifying shampoos, one of which is Joico Chelating shampoo, while others use organic shampoos. Avalon makes one, a Lemon Clarifying shampoo.

Paula Begoun, a haircare guru, recommends simply buying a shampoo for normal hair without too many additives and using that when needed.
Thank you so much for that, I think I might have found where Avalon products are sold in my country! :cheese:
I have so much trouble finding all the products that are been recommended over the boards, it's usually easier for me to go for the homemade stuff. I hope it's a good one though, I don't have alternatives and the store is quite far away from where I live.

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 12:46 PM
Thank you so much for that, I think I might have found where Avalon products are sold in my country! :cheese:
I have so much trouble finding all the products that are been recommended over the boards, it's usually easier for me to go for the homemade stuff. I hope it's a good one though, I don't have alternatives and the store is quite far away from where I live.

You are most welcome.

Actually, you do have alternatives right where you live. Any clear shampoo for normal hair, without extra silicones or oils should do, and they will be cheaper than an import.

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 03:35 PM
Hain Celestial, which owns Queen Helene and Avalon as well as Jason Organics, is currently being sued by the State of California in the 1,4 Dioxane scandal. It looks as if Avalon is named in the suit, not Hain Celestial, direct. I put their popular brands in bold.

"Hain Celestial .... all natural food categories with well-known brands that include Celestial Seasonings(R), Terra(R), Garden of Eatin'(R), Health Valley(R), WestSoy(R), Earth's Best(R), Arrowhead Mills(R), MaraNatha(R), SunSpire(R), DeBoles(R), Hain Pure Foods(R), FreeBird(TM), Plainville Farms(R), Hollywood(R), Spectrum Naturals(R), Spectrum Essentials(R), Walnut Acres Organic(R), Imagine(R), Rice Dream(R), Soy Dream(R), Rosetto(R), Ethnic Gourmet(R), Yves Veggie Cuisine(R), Granose(R), Realeat(R), Linda McCartney(R), Daily Bread(TM), Lima(R), Grains Noirs(R), Natumi(R), JASON(R), Zia(R) Natural Skincare, Avalon Organics(R), Alba Botanica(R), Queen Helene(R) ...."
http://ir.hain-celestial.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=87078&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1139452&highlight

"California Files Lawsuit Against Whole Foods, Avalon, and Others Whose Products Tested Positive for Carcinogenic 1,4-Dioxane in OCA Study"
http://www.transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=52631&ret=AccountDtl.aspx

Nothing in the world of cosmetics is sacred.

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 04:57 PM
While the companies named in the aforementioned lawsuit are not in question, the writer of that link's research is IMO, with regard to sls and sles.

I trust the American Cancer Society more than I trust her.

2008 on the American Cancer Society Website
"Sodium lauryl sulfate (SLS) and its chemical cousin sodium laureth sulfate (SLES) are known irritants, not known carcinogens."
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/MED/content/MED_6_1x_Shampoo.asp?sitearea=MED

And I refer this post as well.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=351829&postcount=3

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 06:59 PM
Some companies are making declarations like this.

Head & Shoulder Smooth & Silky 2 in 1 Dandruff Shampoo MSDS dated May 2008
"The product(s) does not contain ingredients considered hazardous as defined by OSHA, 29 CFR
1910.1200 and/or WHMIS under the HPA."
http://www.pg.com/content/pdf/01_about_pg/msds/beauty_care/haircare/head_and_shoulders/Head_and_Shoulders_Smooth_Silky_2_in_1_Pyrithione_ Zinc_Dandruff_Shampoo_(95395139).pdf

OSHA
http://www.osha.gov/

WHMIS
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/occup-travail/whmis-simdut/index-eng.php

HPA
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/H-3/

OSHA & EPA
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/civil/osha/oshaenfstatreq.html

ktani
November 22nd, 2008, 08:50 PM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
November 23rd, 2008, 06:46 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
November 23rd, 2008, 09:47 AM
Storing honey lightening ingredients

Honey
"Store honey at room temperature with .... lid on tightly."
http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57 (http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57)

Ground spices
"Ground spices will keep .... 1 year .... Spices should be kept away from the heat, light and humidity .... prevent flavor and color loss." http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf (http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf)

Coconut oil
"Coconut oil's fatty acid profile .... about 92% saturated fat, making it very stable and safe to store at room temperature."
http://www.spectrumorganics.com/?id=247

Extra Virgin Olive Oil
"Olive oil connoisseurs recommend storing .... extra-virgin olive oils at room temperature."
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm (http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm)

Water
Store .... water .... in a cool, dark place.
Replace water every six months."
http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/info.asp?page=2839

Opened water
"To minimize exposure to bacteria, open a container just before use and then refrigerate it .... If no refrigeration .... available, keep the container up high, away from children and pets.
Direct heat and light .... slowly damage plastic containers resulting in eventual leakage .... they should be stored in a dark, cool and dry place.
Water can also be stored in a freezer."
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SS439

ktani
November 24th, 2008, 07:37 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

Heidi_234
November 24th, 2008, 10:57 AM
You are most welcome.

Actually, you do have alternatives right where you live. Any clear shampoo for normal hair, without extra silicones or oils should do, and they will be cheaper than an import.

I'm not sure there's any commercial shampoo with no silicones and such. I mean, I was looking for shampoo today in my local store, and there definitely weren't any clarifying shampoo there.
Will elvive nutri-gloss shampoo (http://www.britishsupermarketworldwide.com/acatalog/info_99355.html) do the trick? I have it at home, and when I tried it on my velcro ends they turned normal and healthy again, so it's probably removed some build-up I suppose.

ktani
November 24th, 2008, 12:00 PM
I'm not sure there's any commercial shampoo with no silicones and such. I mean, I was looking for shampoo today in my local store, and there definitely weren't any clarifying shampoo there.
Will elvive nutri-gloss shampoo (http://www.britishsupermarketworldwide.com/acatalog/info_99355.html) do the trick? I have it at home, and when I tried it on my velcro ends they turned normal and healthy again, so it's probably removed some build-up I suppose.

That is my point here. It does not have to say clarifying on the bottle. It just has to not have ingredients that can add to the problem (removing build-up) or create problems of their own (irritation, dry hair etc.) and above all work for you.

It sounds like this one does work for you. That is the only thing that counts, IMO. L'Oreal Vive shampoos have been noted (in Paula Begoun's hair care books) for not being overly conditioning. Bottom line though, is how any shampoo works on your hair.

If your ends softened up for you then yes, IMO, it removed build-up.

ETA: I looked at a couple of versions here and even the one for damaged hair is fairly light in terms of additives. It should be just fine.
http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304569&navAction=jump&navCount=0&nug=VPD&skuid=sku3120299&id=prod3121466#ingredient

Heidi_234
November 24th, 2008, 12:26 PM
That is my point here. It does not have to say clarifying on the bottle. It just has to not have ingredients that can add to the problem (removing build-up) or create problems of their own (irritation, dry hair etc.) and above all work for you.

It sounds like this one does work for you. That is the only thing that counts, IMO. L'Oreal Vive shampoos have been noted (in Paula Begoun's hair care books) for not being overly conditioning. Bottom line though, is how any shampoo works on your hair.

If your ends softened up for you then yes, IMO, it removed build-up.

ETA: I looked at a couple of versions here and even the one for damaged hair is fairly light in terms of additives. It should be just fine.
http://www.walgreens.com/store/product.jsp?CATID=304569&navAction=jump&navCount=0&nug=VPD&skuid=sku3120299&id=prod3121466#ingredient
Thanks for the feedback!
It means that I'm ready and set for trying another HLT this Wednesday. I also bought some cardamom. So I have all the 3 boosters in hand (cardamom, ground cinnamon, olive oil). Should I use all of them for optimal results, or just one or two?

ktani
November 24th, 2008, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the feedback!
It means that I'm ready and set for trying another HLT this Wednesday. I also bought some cardamom. So I have all the 3 boosters in hand (cardamom, ground cinnamon, olive oil). Should I use all of them for optimal results, or just one or two?

You are most welcome.

You can use all 3, just make sure that you patch test the spices and do not use too much.

For 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 1 tablespoon of spice.

For 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water, 2 tablespoons spice.

You can use 1/2 and 1/2 for the spice or all of 1.

The oil can be 1/2 tablespoon to 1 maximum either recipe. It depends on how easily it washes out of your hair.

ktani
November 24th, 2008, 08:56 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
November 25th, 2008, 10:03 AM
I think that honey lightening recipes with ground (powdered) cinnamon are safe to use but I would alternate them with other recipes, not to get too much coumarin at one time, or too often (unless Ceylon cinnamon is available http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm). The recommended maximum is 2 tablespoons ground cinnamon per treatment. I suggest alternating using just honey and distilled water or honey and cardamom and distilled water (coconut oil and evoo are optional).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom can be skin sensitizers. Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon and has a higher peroxide value. Patch test before using either spice.

Cardamom
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/CardamomSeed.htm

It really depends on the frequency of one's honey lightening routine and preferred recipe.

Even though I have posted about the ground cassia cinnamon, coumarin connection before, it is always good IMO, to review research again.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380

Overuse of ground cassia cinnamon is not recommended.

ktani
November 26th, 2008, 10:50 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
November 27th, 2008, 08:35 AM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

Heidi_234
November 27th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.


Hey ktani, does that mean that somebody managed to go from brown to blond with honey lightening? Or was it more of a dirty blond to blond? Then again, her hair was virgin, so it doesn't help me much.
Oh and -
I did the HLT yesterday, I followed the recipe, used all three boosters and clarified my hair with shampoo. The results are fairly unnoticable I'd say. I'll get a pic tommorow and compose a comparison, just to make sure. But in this rate, it will take me forever to lighten my hair. Anyway, pics tomorrow.
Cheers.

ktani
November 27th, 2008, 05:18 PM
Hey ktani, does that mean that somebody managed to go from brown to blond with honey lightening? Or was it more of a dirty blond to blond? Then again, her hair was virgin, so it doesn't help me much.
Oh and -
I did the HLT yesterday, I followed the recipe, used all three boosters and clarified my hair with shampoo. The results are fairly unnoticable I'd say. I'll get a pic tommorow and compose a comparison, just to make sure. But in this rate, it will take me forever to lighten my hair. Anyway, pics tomorrow.
Cheers.

It may be your honey by this point. I suggest trying another one. I look forward to your pictures regardless of the results.

Try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

The hair colour is stated in the results below. Both were brown and went to different shades of blonde with no red.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

ktani
November 27th, 2008, 05:26 PM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH.

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
November 28th, 2008, 08:35 AM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

Heidi_234
November 28th, 2008, 12:00 PM
Hey,
Those are the before and after my second honey lightening pics.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2075&pictureid=25842
It does looks like it worked, but I still not sure I believe the pictures. Both pictures were taken under the same conditions, with flash and no indirect sunlight. Despite this, the pillow case underneath does look darker on the 'before' picture. In reality, I have nothing to compare my hair to, so I'm not sure if it is lighter or not, but I'll have to have it much lighter for my purposes.
One thing for sure, my hair still feels great, whether the color is lighter or not. And thank you Ktani for being helpful and informative and always ready to answer my questions. :flower:

ktani
November 28th, 2008, 12:18 PM
Hey,
Those are the before and after my second honey lightening pics.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/picture.php?albumid=2075&pictureid=25842
It does looks like it worked, but I still not sure I believe the pictures. Both pictures were taken under the same conditions, with flash and no indirect sunlight. Despite this, the pillow case underneath does look darker on the 'before' picture. In reality, I have nothing to compare my hair to, so I'm not sure if it is lighter or not, but I'll have to have it much lighter for my purposes.
One thing for sure, my hair still feels great, whether the color is lighter or not. And thank you Ktani for being helpful and informative and always ready to answer my questions. :flower:

The colour definitely looks lighter to me. Your pictures seem use the exact same lighting too.

Sometimes, pictures let you see what is not obvious to you without them.

I would still try a different honey.

Heidi_234
November 28th, 2008, 12:26 PM
The colour definitely looks lighter to me. Your pictures seem use the exact same lighting too.

Sometimes pictures let you see what is not obvious to you without them

I would still try a different honey.
True.
How much treatments would it take me to get to fairly light brown? Oh, I might not have the time, my next henna is on the 11th! :lol: Anyway, thanks again!

ktani
November 28th, 2008, 12:30 PM
True.
How much treatments would it take me to get to fairly light brown? Oh, I might not have the time, my next henna is on the 11th! :lol: Anyway, thanks again!

There is no way to predict how light one can go with honey lightening, especially on multiple layers of henna. And you are still using henna.

I suggest that if you want to continue honey lightening before the 11th, that you try a different honey use the same recipes.

Heidi_234
November 28th, 2008, 01:44 PM
There is no way to predict how light one can go with honey lightening, especially on multiple layers of henna. And you are still using henna.

I suggest that if you want to continue honey lightening before the 11th, that you try a different honey use the same recipes.
Can I conclude from your words that I could have even better change in color if the honey is good peroxide producer?
The honey I have is dark colored wild flower honey. I know it doesn't guarantees success but it fits the criteria, right?
BTW (last question), what's royal jelly honey? I encountered this in a shop, and the salesperson had no idea.

ktani
November 28th, 2008, 02:38 PM
Can I conclude from your words that I could have even better change in color if the honey is good peroxide producer?
The honey I have is dark colored wild flower honey. I know it doesn't guarantees success but it fits the criteria, right?
BTW (last question), what's royal jelly honey? I encountered this in a shop, and the salesperson had no idea.

Yes, you may get even faster results with a better peroxide producing honey.

Royal jelly is a separate substance altogether from honey but can be added to honey. It has nothing to do with honey.

Here is the defintion of royal jelly.
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861706322/royal_jelly.html

And here is some current research about royal jelly. November 28, 2008
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/03/080317152324.htm

Goose
November 28th, 2008, 03:59 PM
A few questions:

1. Is the mixture applied to dry hair?
2. I am trying the honey, water, olive oil combo ....
do I mix all three ingreds and leave for 1 hr
or
do I mix the honey & water - leave for 1 hr then add the Olive Oil before applying to hair?
3. After the treatment - do I shampoo and cond as normal?
4. How many times a week can you do the treatments?

ktani
November 28th, 2008, 04:24 PM
A few questions:

1. Is the mixture applied to dry hair?
2. I am trying the honey, water, olive oil combo ....
do I mix all three ingreds and leave for 1 hr
or
do I mix the honey & water - leave for 1 hr then add the Olive Oil before applying to hair?
3. After the treatment - do I shampoo and cond as normal?
4. How many times a week can you do the treatments?

All of your questions and more are answered here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1 under different topics, as well as in my signature post below.

In brief: 1. Both wet or dry 2. All ingredients are mixed at one time, with honey going in before the spices for a smoother mixture 3. Yes, but you can apply the treatment to freshly washed hair or if there is no residue or leave-in, apply the treatment to unwashed hair 4. As many as you want.

ktani
November 28th, 2008, 04:57 PM
Goose

Welcome to LHC and Honey!

ktani
November 28th, 2008, 05:01 PM
New to Honey? Start with the first post in this thread. I answer all questions but you may find what you are looking for there or in my signature, below.

No worries if you cannot understand the answer you want. I will do my best to clarify it for you.

ktani
November 29th, 2008, 07:59 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
November 30th, 2008, 09:14 AM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

ktani
December 1st, 2008, 08:28 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
December 1st, 2008, 07:00 PM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

morguebabe
December 2nd, 2008, 11:10 AM
So would Manuka Honey NOT lighten my hair because I do NOT want to lighten it at all..I love Mankua honey on my skin.

ktani
December 2nd, 2008, 11:15 AM
So would Manuka Honey NOT lighten my hair because I do NOT want to lighten it at all..I love Mankua honey on my skin.

Manuka honey has a pretty good peroxide value I believe, so it can lighten your hair. It depends on how you use it, as with any honey.

If you do not want to lighten with it, microwave it for 30 seconds to under 1 minute.

Jorchet
December 2nd, 2008, 06:09 PM
Hi, everyone! I need help again... http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/tristeyno-1.gif

I'm not in the UK anymore, I'm back in Argentina and I was hoping to try the lightening treatment over here. Thing is, I haven't got a clue what honey to get - or what is available around here! - so I was wondering if there's any way I can tell which honey is better for the treatment just by looking at the ingredients? I read on wikipedia about Jarrah Honey coming from Eucalyptus marginata, so....would it mean that if there's was any eucalyptus honey it could work? Or maybe how light the honey is...?
If I can find some honey to try it, I'll give it a go with tap water (water is completely different from over there) and in the meantime, go hunting for distilled water...http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/doh.gif it never ends, does it? :o

ktani
December 2nd, 2008, 06:12 PM
Hi, everyone! I need help again... http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/tristeyno-1.gif

I'm not in the UK anymore, I'm back in Argentina and I was hoping to try the lightening treatment over here. Thing is, I haven't got a clue what honey to get - or what is available around here! - so I was wondering if there's any way I can tell which honey is better for the treatment just by looking at the ingredients? I read on wikipedia about Jarrah Honey coming from Eucalyptus marginata, so....would it mean that if there's was any eucalyptus honey it could work? Or maybe how light the honey is...?
If I can find some honey to try it, I'll give it a go with tap water (water is completely different from over there) and in the meantime, go hunting for distilled water...http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/doh.gif it never ends, does it? :o

No worries. Here is the link on honeys. You can order Jarrah honey online.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370

Here is the link on tap water.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=322099&postcount=2547

ktani
December 2nd, 2008, 06:18 PM
Since this an all inclusive honey thread, I thought that I would post this.
http://www.grouprecipes.com/23528/edible-honey-dust-for-romantics.html

I had never heard of honey dust until I watched NCIS, lol, love that show!

More, this one lists ingredients.
http://www.kamasutramart.com/honey-dust-powder/

ktani
December 2nd, 2008, 07:31 PM
Powdered honey can probably be bought from a number of food vendors.
http://www.ussalesservice.com/newproducts/honeysweet.htm

http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/category/57/5199/0/0

ktani
December 3rd, 2008, 08:22 AM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded).

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
December 3rd, 2008, 05:42 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
December 4th, 2008, 09:15 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
December 4th, 2008, 06:17 PM
For vegans who are opposed to using honey, or there is another reason, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide). The honey lightening boosters do not indivdually have a higher peroxide level than most honeys can have.

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).

morguebabe
December 4th, 2008, 06:38 PM
So how would I heat it to use in my hair so it wouldn't lighten my dark hair, I do SMTs and I heat that for like 15 seconds in the microwave is that enough heat? (The Manuka honey)

ktani
December 4th, 2008, 06:44 PM
So how would I heat it to use in my hair so it wouldn't lighten my dark hair, I do SMTs and I heat that for like 15 seconds in the microwave is that enough heat? (The Manuka honey)

That is the recommended SMT time. However, I have read reports that 15 seconds or so, is not enough time. So, I changed the time I recommend to what I replied to you earlier, 30 seconds to under 1 minute. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=365889&postcount=2978

morguebabe
December 4th, 2008, 06:53 PM
I mean, do I heat the honey first, THEN add it, or mix the SMT and then heat it? As in does mixing it and heating it have to happen in a certain order.

ktani
December 4th, 2008, 06:56 PM
I mean, do I heat the honey first, THEN add it, or mix the SMT and then heat it? As in does mixing it and heating it have to happen in a certain order.

I have read that it can be done both ways. I would heat the honey for that length of time separately, then let it cool and add it to the rest of your ingredients.

magpielaura
December 5th, 2008, 07:28 AM
I am supposed to be sewing Christmas tablecloths for my local pub but I'm just having a little LHC break.... I have a honey treatment on now! I put ground cardamom in it but it was horrible to apply - grainy, gritty -shudder- slop. I flicked bits everywhere trying to get it on...I think I may just go back to the honey and water recipe! I can rinse it out easily too if there's nothing else in it:cheese:

ktani
December 5th, 2008, 07:45 AM
I am supposed to be sewing Christmas tablecloths for my local pub but I'm just having a little LHC break.... I have a honey treatment on now! I put ground cardamom in it but it was horrible to apply - grainy, gritty -shudder- slop. I flicked bits everywhere trying to get it on...I think I may just go back to the honey and water recipe! I can rinse it out easily too if there's nothing else in it:cheese:

I have not heard that before but no worries. I hope that it turns out well. You can apply a treatment with a spray or squirt bottle, tint, blush or pastry brush, for less mess next time.

I look forward to your results.

magpielaura
December 5th, 2008, 09:16 AM
I have not heard that before but no worries. I hope that it turns out well. You can apply a treatment with a spray or squirt bottle, tint, blush or pastry brush, for less mess next time.

I look forward to your results.

It was ground cardamom, but it seemed quite coarse (ground cinnamon is a much finer powder) There is no way it would have worked in a spray - I've found that it keeps blocking up a squeezy bottle nozzle! I used a large paint brush and my hand to try to drip/spread it...The texure of the mix combined with hair was repulsive. Crumbs of moist spice falling all over the place....egh

ktani
December 5th, 2008, 09:46 AM
It was ground cardamom, but it seemed quite coarse (ground cinnamon is a much finer powder) There is no way it would have worked in a spray - I've found that it keeps blocking up a squeezy bottle nozzle! I used a large paint brush and my hand to try to drip/spread it...The texure of the mix combined with hair was repulsive. Crumbs of moist spice falling all over the place....egh

Yes, a spray bottle would need a wide nozzle. How much cardamom did you use to how much honey and water? I ask because what you describe has not come up before with cardamom use in a honey lightening treatment.

magpielaura
December 5th, 2008, 03:05 PM
Yes, a spray bottle would need a wide nozzle. How much cardamom did you use to how much honey and water? I ask because what you describe has not come up before with cardamom use in a honey lightening treatment.

A little more than I intended may have slipped out on the jar...!
I have tried grinding my own Cardamom but it too ages to open all the pods and it didn't really want to be a fine powder. By the look of the ground cardamom I have, the whole pod has been ground. I havn't seen another form of ground cardamom.

I used 1 tbsp each honey and cardamom, 6 tbsp distilled water. I'm just doing roots, but ended adding a little more honey and water (in the correct proportions) to make my hair wet enough. Without the cardamom this quantity would have been fine.

Maybe this amount of cardamom is excessive, but even if I use less it's not as easy to apply or wash out than honey and water. Throughout my experiments my colour change has been subtle (not worth posting pics yet!) but I don't mind it being a very gradual process...as long as each treatment is not an ordeal! Any difference in effectiveness between the mixtures I have tried is impossible to say, as the overall change is so tiny. Maybe I'll track down some of that super-duper Jarrah honey eventually, but I'm fine with the slow approach for now. The spices smell and taste lovely though. One day I'm going to marinade some meat in a honey treatment and BBQ it:D

Do you do honey treatments Ktani?

ktani
December 5th, 2008, 03:17 PM
A little more than I intended may have slipped out on the jar...!
I have tried grinding my own Cardamom but it too ages to open all the pods and it didn't really want to be a fine powder. By the look of the ground cardamom I have, the whole pod has been ground. I havn't seen another form of ground cardamom.

I used 1 tbsp each honey and cardamom, 6 tbsp distilled water. I'm just doing roots, but ended adding a little more honey and water (in the correct proportions) to make my hair wet enough. Without the cardamom this quantity would have been fine.

Maybe this amount of cardamom is excessive, but even if I use less it's not as easy to apply or wash out than honey and water. Throughout my experiments my colour change has been subtle (not worth posting pics yet!) but I don't mind it being a very gradual process...as long as each treatment is not an ordeal! Any difference in effectiveness between the mixtures I have tried is impossible to say, as the overall change is so tiny. Maybe I'll track down some of that super-duper Jarrah honey eventually, but I'm fine with the slow approach for now. The spices smell and taste lovely though. One day I'm going to marinade some meat in a honey treatment and BBQ it:D

Do you do honey treatments Ktani?

For the recipe you used, 1 tablespoon of cardamom is fine. It may be your honey if the results are very subtle, or the method with which you use to cover your hair. The hair needs to be kept very wet both before and while covered for the hour.

No, I do not honey lighten for 2 reasons. 1. I am sensitive to honey on my scalp. 2. I am covering my grey/white with catnip and I do not want to lighten my hair colour.

magpielaura
December 5th, 2008, 03:28 PM
For the recipe you used, 1 tablespoon of cardamom is fine. It may be your honey if the results are very subtle, or the method with which you use to cover your hair. The hair needs to be kept very wet both before and while covered for the hour.

No, I do not honey lighten for 2 reasons. 1. I am sensitive to honey on my scalp. 2. I am covering my grey/white with catnip and I do not want to lighten my hair colour.

I use sainsbury's basic honey, which is on your list of good ones. It is a natural product that varies though I suppose, and being a 'basics' brand (ie cheapest in the shop!) I would imagine the blend varies a lot. I'll try a different one when I run out.
I have been about on this thread long enough to know the covering it during treatment bit...guests in my house may wonder at the swimming hat by the bath!!! (and the jar of honey by the sink. I wonder what they think I do with it?)

ktani
December 5th, 2008, 03:32 PM
I use sainsbury's basic honey, which is on your list of good ones. It is a natural product that varies though I suppose, and being a 'basics' brand (ie cheapest in the shop!) I would imagine the blend varies a lot. I'll try a different one when I run out.
I have been about on this thread long enough to know the covering it during treatment bit...guests in my house may wonder at the swimming hat by the bath!!! (and the jar of honey by the sink. I wonder what they think I do with it?)

What you did and used sounds fine. Was there any residue or oil/leave-in on your hair pre lightening? I am just doing my usual detective work.

ktani
December 6th, 2008, 08:33 AM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

magpielaura
December 6th, 2008, 03:45 PM
What you did and used sounds fine. Was there any residue or oil/leave-in on your hair pre lightening? I am just doing my usual detective work.

I have done treatments on unwashed hair as it is more conveinient than washing, waiting for it to dry/part dry, sitting about with honey, rinsing, waiting for it to dry again. The downside is that its the roots I want to lighten, and of course they're the oilyest bit! I did some full length treatments like this and think I only suceeded in making the lightest bits lighter! The only leave-in that is normally present is coconut oil, but that could potentially boost rather than inhibit lightening. It would be on the ends, so it is possible that it played a part in brightening up these areas.

Most of my treatments have been following my usual wash routine : 'cone free CO wash, a dilute ACV rinse, final plain water rinse. I either wash the night before a treatment or a few hours before. I've tried a BS wash as a pre-treatment clarifyer but just don't get on with it (drying, bothers my scalp, blotchy red face).

This last treatment (roots only,SMT on the ends) followed my first use of a clarifying shampoo (cone and sls free one, giovanni?) I didn't really think that there was build-up on my hair but I thought I'd try as I've read so much on the subject on LHC. I think my hair may be a tiny bit lighter at the roots today, but I couldn't say for sure if it is:
1.my imagination
2.lightened by honey(and cardamom mess)
3.brighter due to removal of buildup or
4.cleaner than CO was getting it
But I can say for sure that my hair is very soft/shiny/smooth

I hope this adds to the ongoing experiences of honey junkies!

ktani
December 6th, 2008, 04:02 PM
I have done treatments on unwashed hair as it is more conveinient than washing, waiting for it to dry/part dry, sitting about with honey, rinsing, waiting for it to dry again. The downside is that its the roots I want to lighten, and of course they're the oilyest bit! I did some full length treatments like this and think I only suceeded in making the lightest bits lighter! The only leave-in that is normally present is coconut oil, but that could potentially boost rather than inhibit lightening. It would be on the ends, so it is possible that it played a part in brightening up these areas.

Most of my treatments have been following my usual wash routine : 'cone free CO wash, a dilute ACV rinse, final plain water rinse. I either wash the night before a treatment or a few hours before. I've tried a BS wash as a pre-treatment clarifyer but just don't get on with it (drying, bothers my scalp, blotchy red face).

This last treatment (roots only,SMT on the ends) followed my first use of a clarifying shampoo (cone and sls free one, giovanni?) I didn't really think that there was build-up on my hair but I thought I'd try as I've read so much on the subject on LHC. I think my hair may be a tiny bit lighter at the roots today, but I couldn't say for sure if it is:
1.my imagination
2.lightened by honey(and cardamom mess)
3.brighter due to removal of buildup or
4.cleaner than CO was getting it
But I can say for sure that my hair is very soft/shiny/smooth

I hope this adds to the ongoing experiences of honey junkies!

It sounds good to me.

The only thing I would suggest, is that your next treatment be done on this hair, since you clarified it after the treatment with the shampoo. And you beat me to it on asking about the condition of your hair, lol. I am pleased for you that you are so happy with that. So all is good. It does not have to say clarifying on the shampoo bottle to remove build-up, especially if you are not using a lot of produts but with COing, you can get residue. Just use a shampoo for normal hair without additives, like silicone or oil.

magpielaura
December 6th, 2008, 04:19 PM
It sounds good to me.

The only thing I would suggest, is that your next treatment be done on this hair, since you clarified it after the treatment with the shampoo. And you beat me to it on asking about the condition of your hair, lol. I am pleased for you that you are so happy with that. So all is good. It does not have to say clarifying on the shampoo bottle to remove build-up, especially if you are not using a lot of produts but with COing, you can get residue. Just use a shampoo for normal hair without additives, like silicone or oil.

The clarifying shampoo was before the honey on this occasion. Now I think about it I ended up CO washing after the honey to get all the cardamom out! I forgot about that bit.
Incidentally, I know some here have spoken about difficulty with build up/residues from honey. Just thought I'd mention that so far, I've never experienced this. If it wasn't for the additon of spices or olive oil (I've tried that a few times too!) I would just rinse with water, maybe with an ACV rinse. I've only ever washed those more stubborn booster ingredients out with condishener.

ktani
December 6th, 2008, 04:48 PM
The clarifying shampoo was before the honey on this occasion. Now I think about it I ended up CO washing after the honey to get all the cardamom out! I forgot about that bit.
Incidentally, I know some here have spoken about difficulty with build up/residues from honey. Just thought I'd mention that so far, I've never experienced this. If it wasn't for the additon of spices or olive oil (I've tried that a few times too!) I would just rinse with water, maybe with an ACV rinse. I've only ever washed those more stubborn booster ingredients out with condishener.

That is great news about no residue. Not all honeys leave a discernible residue.

COing is fine for washing out a honey lightening treatment. But IMO, it is better do do one on unwashed hair that has been washed with shampoo and does not have a leave-in (a very light coconut oiling, excepted). Too much oil can act as a barrier to the water in the treatment.

ktani
December 7th, 2008, 01:15 PM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with the unstabilized hydrogen peroxide (as opposed to the stabilized conventional kind) of a honey lightening recipe and can deplete or negatively interact with the peroxide levels.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
December 7th, 2008, 04:33 PM
Honey lightening on henndigoed hair

Indigo is another plant that has varied results on individuals. It can fade easily for some people or be very difficult to lighten.

Honey lightening has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair too. The new dilution, has been reported to work better than previous dilutions, on the more difficult, hard to lighten henndigo. However, some concentrations of henndigo proved resistant to any lightening (except a bleach recipe that all but destroyed test samples), even with conventional peroxide, on test samples of cut off ends, for wintersun99.

bizarrogirl used a previous dilution for her treatments, that included conditioner. However, when more water was added, her results were even better and less ground cinnamon was used. This lead in part to conditioner no longer being recommended for honey lightening. For many others, conditioner did not improve results and in some cases, interfered with honey lightening.

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/)

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair (multiple henndigo treatments) - the new dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersunn99 update
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281159&postcount=2278

wintersun99's honey lightening recipe and method Note: 3/4 cup is a US measurement = 1/2 cup Metric = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281794&postcount=2292

ktani
December 7th, 2008, 04:34 PM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
December 7th, 2008, 04:37 PM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

Wyldekat
December 7th, 2008, 09:35 PM
Hi, I apologize if you have already been asked this question. There are lot of honey pages to look through. :) I made my honey mix earlier today with the intention of applying it an hour later. After an hour, I was to lazy to do the honey treatment. Got to love Sundays! Can I use the same batch that I made today, first thing tomorrow morning? Or should I toss it and make a fresh batch tomorrow? Thanks!

ktani
December 7th, 2008, 09:41 PM
Hi, I apologize if you have already been asked this question. There are lot of honey pages to look through. :) I made my honey mix earlier today with the intention of applying it an hour later. After an hour, I was to lazy to do the honey treatment. Got to love Sundays! Can I use the same batch that I made today, first thing tomorrow morning? Or should I toss it and make a fresh batch tomorrow? Thanks!

First, no apologies necessary. I answer all questions.

Yes, you should be fine with the treatment tomorrow. I would not go past one day though. I cannot determine how soon the honey peroxide level declines. It varies with the honey.

Rather than read through a whole bunch of pages, start with the first post in this thread. I set it up with answers to the most asked about topics. If you cannot find what you are looking for, just post and I will reply.

Wyldekat
December 7th, 2008, 09:48 PM
Thank you so much for your quick reply. And for your knowledge! :) I'm excited that there is an alternative to harsh chemicals.

ktani
December 7th, 2008, 09:53 PM
Thank you so much for your quick reply. And for your knowledge! :) I'm excited that there is an alternative to harsh chemicals.

You are most welcome. Any time. And welcome to LHC and Honey!