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plainjanegirl
October 28th, 2008, 10:53 AM
If anyone is looking into honey lightening feel free to ask away any questions. I will be more than happy to answer them.

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 10:55 AM
If anyone is looking into honey lightening feel free to ask away any questions. I will be more than happy to answer them.

I am happy to read that you are offering to help. I have answered all of your many, many questions.

My responses are based on the research I have read on honey, how hydrogen peroxide works and more, plus keeping track of, and reading all 5 Honey thread reports on honey lightening results, to date. I have modified and streamlined honey lightening recipes through the research, and the methods through the reports of results.

harpgal
October 28th, 2008, 11:14 AM
I am happy to read that you are offering to help. I have answered all of your many, many questions.
ktani, I consider this response to be rather snarky. I could be wrong but I think that plainjanegirl was simply trying to be helpful.

plainjanegirl
October 28th, 2008, 11:23 AM
ktani, I consider this response to be rather snarky. I could be wrong but I think that plainjanegirl was simply trying to be helpful.


Yes that was all I intended by my most since I was happy with my results.
But if I stepped on your toes or you feel like I was trying to push you out ktani.....I will step back from the honey thread.

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 11:23 AM
ktani, I consider this response to be rather snarky. I could be wrong but I think that plainjanegirl was simply trying to be helpful.

My apologies, that was not my intent.

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 11:43 AM
For vegans who are opposed to using honey, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide). The honey lightening boosters do not indivdually have a higher peroxide level than most honeys can have.

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 11:55 AM
As the cold and flu season approaches, here is a very short update on honey used to help coughs, including the important warning not to give honey to children under 1 year of age.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/honey/AN01799

And here is a 24 hour cold chaser remedy. It does not contain honey but it is all natural. I have not tried it yet myself (no colds), but I did recommend it to someone who reported back that it did help.

Equal parts cinnamon, sage and bay leaf. Use 1 tsp of the mix to 1 cup boiled water. Drink one cup of the remedy every hour. It is supposed to get rid of a cold in 24 hours.

Large quantities of cassia cinnamon and sage are not recommended for long term use, but this remedy is "short and sweet" in terms of duration. http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/8500



The following information was posted earlier in this thread.

Cassia cinnamon and coumarins

"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon#Cinnamon_and_cassia

"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

"Frequently asked questions about coumarin in cinnamon and other foods"
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf

According to the author, in Germany, coumarin in any type of food is limited to 2 parts per million. See "Main constituents"
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_cas.html



I have posted this information elsewhere on the boards.

Sage safety
".... can be toxic when used in excess or when taken for extended periods ...."
http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Salvia+officinalis

"Toxic in excess or over long periods. Contraindicated during pregnancy ...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sage

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 11:59 AM
I think that honey lightening recipes with ground (powdered) cinnamon are safe to use but I would mix them up a bit, not to get too much coumarin at one time, or too often (unless Ceylon cinnamon is available http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm). The recommended maximum is 2 tablespoons ground cinnamon per treatment. I suggest alternating recipes, using just honey and distilled water or honey and cardamom and distilled water (coconut oil and evoo are optional).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom can be skin sensitizers. Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon and has a higher peroxide value. Patch test before using either spice.

Cardamom
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/CardamomSeed.htm

It really depends on the frequency of one's honey lightening routine and preferred recipe.

Even though I have posted about the ground cassia cinnamon, coumarin connection before, it is always good IMO, to review research again.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380

Overuse of ground cassia cinnamon is not recommended.

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 12:01 PM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 12:01 PM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 12:42 PM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

meganb990
October 28th, 2008, 12:55 PM
I used the water bottle method to squirt the honey water mixture into my hair. I wrapped my soaking wet hair up with glad wrap. I do think I will be purchasing a shower cap today based on it producing better results. Thank you Ktani and Plainjanegirl. My hair lightened maybe a tad but I have really dark brown almost black hair with henna on top. I love the results of the henna but am afraid my hair might become even a darker color after layers of henna being applied :shrug:. So hopefully I can lighten the color just a tad I'm hoping for an auburn color and less of a burgandy purple color I have currently. I've seen some of the great results you have posted Ktani so I'll keep doing honey treatments and see what happens hopefully some lightening :).

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 01:00 PM
I used the water bottle method to squirt the honey water mixture into my hair. I wrapped my soaking wet hair up with glad wrap. I do think I will be purchasing a shower cap today based on it producing better results. Thank you Ktani and Plainjanegirl. My hair lightened maybe a tad but I have really dark brown almost black hair with henna on top. I love the results of the henna but am afraid my hair might become even a darker color after layers of henna being applied :shrug:. So hopefully I can lighten the color just a tad I'm hoping for an auburn color and less of a burgandy purple color I have currently. I've seen some of the great results you have posted Ktani so I'll keep doing honey treatments and see what happens hopefully some lightening :).

You are most welcome. I am glad that you got results that pleased you.

Misting can be a problem with certain recipes, if the bottle opening is not large enough for the spices.

Have a look at this post, which I created to help deal with often asked about topics.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 06:37 PM
But if I stepped on your toes or you feel like I was trying to push you out ktani.....I will step back from the honey thread.

My response was too literal, my tone was unintended and I apologize. I have answered many questions for a number of people. That is what I do in this thread.

If misting in 30 minute increments worked well for you, I am pleased for you that you got what you wanted from honey lightening.

I did not think that you were trying to push me out nor did you step on my toes.

Your results and pictures and contribution to Honey are as welcome as anyone else's.

ktani
October 29th, 2008, 10:00 AM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ktani
October 29th, 2008, 06:03 PM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
October 29th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with the unstabilized hydrogen peroxide (as opposed to the stabilized conventional kind) of a honey lightening recipe and can deplete the peroxide levels.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
October 29th, 2008, 07:12 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
October 29th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Honey lightening on henndigoed hair

Indigo is another plant that has varied results on individuals. It can fade easily for some people or be very difficult to lighten.

Honey lightening has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair too. The new dilution, has been reported to work better than previous dilutions, on the more difficult, hard to lighten henndigo. However, some concentrations of henndigo proved resistant to any lightening (except a bleach recipe that all but destroyed test samples), even with conventional peroxide, on test samples of cut off ends, for wintersun99.

bizarrogirl used a previous dilution for her treatments, that included conditioner. However, when more water was added, her results were even better and less ground cinnamon was used. This lead in part to conditioner no longer being recommended for honey lightening. For many others, conditioner did not improve results and in some cases, interfered with honey lightening.

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/)

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair (multiple henndigo treatments) - the new dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersunn99 update
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281159&postcount=2278

wintersun99's honey lightening recipe and method Note: 3/4 cup is a US measurement = 1/2 cup Metric = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281794&postcount=2292

ktani
October 29th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, recipes and methods used, even on baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of he hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
October 29th, 2008, 07:15 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
October 29th, 2008, 07:17 PM
Kokuryu is the one who used a swim cap for her honey lightening and her results are part of the reason I now recommend using swim caps to cover honey lightening treatments, to keep the hair very wet. The other part is that people have reported plastic bags slipping and shower caps not being secure, except with a hat worn over them. If the hair dries during application, or while covered or uncovered during a treatment, any lightening will either stop, or not happen at all.

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content, and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

Kokuryu's comments after 2 treatments. She did not use the coconut oil in her 3rd treament.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments This treatment was done on wet hair.
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

gallows_gallery
October 30th, 2008, 07:44 AM
I did my fourth honey treatment yesterday.

I got a big plastic bowl, a huge dollop of Australian Beechworth's honey, a squirt of olive oil and filled the bowl up to 1/3 filtered tap water.I let it sit overnight, then doused my hair in it in the morning, put it all in a small binbag (i.e. lower the length of your hair in to it over the bath) then tied a teatowel around the edge to stop leakage and to hold it in place. It stays soaking wet inside the bag.

I left it on for about 5 hours, then washed it out. Two shampoos with Tresemme heat repair shampoo and two conditions with Herbal Essences rose conditioner.

Hair was absolutely lovely condition afterwards - soft, shiny. There is no noticeable colour change since my last treatment...but I'm persisting seeing it's not hurting my hair!

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 08:42 AM
I did my fourth honey treatment yesterday.

I got a big plastic bowl, a huge dollop of Australian Beechworth's honey, a squirt of olive oil and filled the bowl up to 1/3 filtered tap water.I let it sit overnight, then doused my hair in it in the morning, put it all in a small binbag (i.e. lower the length of your hair in to it over the bath) then tied a teatowel around the edge to stop leakage and to hold it in place. It stays soaking wet inside the bag.

I left it on for about 5 hours, then washed it out. Two shampoos with Tresemme heat repair shampoo and two conditions with Herbal Essences rose conditioner.

Hair was absolutely lovely condition afterwards - soft, shiny. There is no noticeable colour change since my last treatment...but I'm persisting seeing it's not hurting my hair!

I am glad to hear that you are pleased with the condition of your hair. Honey lightening has not been reported to cause any hair damage, no matter how often it is done.

Filtered tap water can still contain minerals. Only some reverse osmosis filters remove minerals. Try using distilled water instead. It also has the best pH for honey lightening, pH 7.

I use freezer bags, stretched out at the opening, for my catnip treatments but I think for honey lightening, that a swim cap is the best covering.

You may be able to get Jarrah honey where you are without too much by way of shipping costs.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Here are the new dilution measurements. Alley Cat, also from Australia, preferred to measure her treatments in grams. She felt that it was easier to do so. 20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water, etc. The minimum amout of honey to use is 10 grams.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=307685&postcount=2442

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

You do not need to leave a treatment on the hair for 5 hours. 1 hour per treatment is sufficient, although some people like to leave it on for longer. There is no harm in doing so. You do not need to let a treatment sit overnight. It needs to sit at room temperature in advance, for only 1 hour, it you want to do that. You can apply it right away after mixing too.

The new dilution has been reported to yield the best results. The new dilution is the old 4 to 1 dilution, with the corrected amount of water.

Jorchet
October 30th, 2008, 10:10 AM
I mix the ingredients, rest it for an hour in the dark, and apply on wet clarified hair. I wear a plastic bag with a shower cap on top and a towel turban style to catch dripping; it doesn't touch my hair, though. I re-wet every 20 mins, my hair stays wet all along. Leave it on for 2 hours to make the most of it.


My first try was with tap water and Tesco's honey. I saw no change at all.
Second try was with Gale's Pure Honey and tap water, I could've sworn that there were some highlights, but nothing much, and only in individual hairs/strands.
Third try, I bought deionised water. Slight change, not really showing on photos, though.
Fourth try, added EVOO to the mix. Left my hair really soft, but I don't think it did much for the lightening.
I think the lightest strands became more noticeable after a patch of sunny days, I don't know if it had anything to do with it being lighter or not. http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/msnicons50.gif


I'm looking for a lighter shade - and more even as well, not just the front strands - and was wondering if the bathing cap would work. Can anyone give me an exact definition - or pic - for it, and do you re-apply the water+honey mix all throughout the treatment or does the cap manage to keep hair wet all along? I need ways to keep it simple because I have tons of hair and really curly, so it's a real struggle to work with it.

Here's my "results" (click on pics to view large)


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/th_Beforetxt.jpg (http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/?action=view&current=Beforetxt.jpg) http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/th_Aftertxt.jpg (http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/?action=view&current=Aftertxt.jpg)

gallows_gallery
October 30th, 2008, 10:17 AM
Thanks ktani.

I left the mixture to sit overnight because I was too tired to do it that late, and I left i on for five hours because I was busy doing my assignment :)

I really am thrilled with how gentle it is on my hair. It does need a very good two conditions to get the gritty feeling out, but my hair is always gorgeous afterwards.

Do you know anything about diluting peroxide? Like making a honey/water mixture then adding a tablespoon of hair peroxide or something? I know it'd be slightly damaging, but I'm curious about speeding this up. I've got shocking horrible regrowth and fadeage at the top, and I'm really ready to dye it again - I've been trying to lighten the ends to dark brown so the dye doesnt just turn them black :(

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 10:38 AM
I mix the ingredients, rest it for an hour in the dark, and apply on wet clarified hair. I wear a plastic bag with a shower cap on top and a towel turban style to catch dripping; it doesn't touch my hair, though. I re-wet every 20 mins, my hair stays wet all along. Leave it on for 2 hours to make the most of it.


My first try was with tap water and Tesco's honey. I saw no change at all.
Second try was with Gale's Pure Honey and tap water, I could've sworn that there were some highlights, but nothing much, and only in individual hairs/strands.
Third try, I bought deionised water. Slight change, not really showing on photos, though.
Fourth try, added EVOO to the mix. Left my hair really soft, but I don't think it did much for the lightening.
I think the lightest strands became more noticeable after a patch of sunny days, I don't know if it had anything to do with it being lighter or not. http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/msnicons50.gif
I'm looking for a lighter shade - and more even as well, not just the front strands - and was wondering if the bathing cap would work. Can anyone give me an exact definition - or pic - for it, and do you re-apply the water+honey mix all throughout the treatment or does the cap manage to keep hair wet all along? I need ways to keep it simple because I have tons of hair and really curly, so it's a real struggle to work with it.

Here's my "results" (click on pics to view large)


http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/th_Beforetxt.jpg (http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/?action=view&current=Beforetxt.jpg) http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/th_Aftertxt.jpg (http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/?action=view&current=Aftertxt.jpg)

I can see a slight colour change. You hair looks more brown/red in tone.

Ok , let's break this down.

You can cover your hair, once it is thoroughly, evenly wet, preferably with a swim cap, or mist it instead. Only with misting, do you need to re wet the hair constantly.

I am not sure about the pH of deionozed water. If you can, try to get distilled water.

Double check your dilution measurements. That can make a huge difference.

You might also try combining the honeys you have, an idea I had not thought of, until brok3nwings mentioned it, by way of a question. That will save you buying a new honey for now.

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 11:10 AM
Thanks ktani.

I left the mixture to sit overnight because I was too tired to do it that late, and I left i on for five hours because I was busy doing my assignment :)

I really am thrilled with how gentle it is on my hair. It does need a very good two conditions to get the gritty feeling out, but my hair is always gorgeous afterwards.

Do you know anything about diluting peroxide? Like making a honey/water mixture then adding a tablespoon of hair peroxide or something? I know it'd be slightly damaging, but I'm curious about speeding this up. I've got shocking horrible regrowth and fadeage at the top, and I'm really ready to dye it again - I've been trying to lighten the ends to dark brown so the dye doesnt just turn them black :(

I understand how you feel about wanting to hurry this along.

However, you have not explored adding honey lightening boosters to your recipes. I would start there first.

Choosing a honey and honey lightening boosters
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370

As for using conventional peroxide, it is an option but not an as addition to a honey lightening recipe.

I started a thread on protecting hair from convention hair colour damage, that includes peroxide, and using coconut oil as a pre treatment has been reported by 3 people so far to be successful.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=303569&postcount=105

Here is the whole thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

gallows_gallery
October 30th, 2008, 11:33 AM
I understand how you feel about wanting to hurry this along.

However, you have not explored adding honey lightening boosters to your recipes. I would start there first.



Thanks for the links ktani - and thanks for your continuing replies!

I actually have used the boosters three times - I forgot that I've actually done FIVE not four treatments. Twice I ground up cardamom with a mortar and pestle, and the other time I used a tablespoon of cinnamon powder. The last time I also used olive oil.

I'm reading the peroxide thread now...

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 11:37 AM
Thanks for the links ktani - and thanks for your continuing replies!

I actually have used the boosters three times - I forgot that I've actually done FIVE not four treatments. Twice I ground up cardamom with a mortar and pestle, and the other time I used a tablespoon of cinnamon powder. The last time I also used olive oil.

I'm reading the peroxide thread now...

You are most welcome.

I was going by your last reported recipe.

Alley Cat wanted for other reasons, to just use honey and distilled water and that did lighten her chemical colour. However on my recommendation, she switched to the higher peroxide level Jarrah honey. It was very successful for her.

gallows_gallery
October 30th, 2008, 11:43 AM
I'm tracking my results with photos, so I'll keep you posted if I notice any difference. It's difficult, because the flash/lighting/angle always changes the colour.

My recipes were (by application):

1) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water, 1 tbs cinnamon powder.

2) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water, ground cardamom

3) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water, ground cardamom

4) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water

5) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water, olive oil

My boyfriend has a big jar of Jarrah raw honey which he never uses, so I might steal it and try it on my hair! Also, it's not just one or two layers of black hair dye on there, it's five years worth - this is probably making it far more difficult.

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 11:47 AM
I'm tracking my results with photos, so I'll keep you posted if I notice any difference. It's difficult, because the flash/lighting/angle always changes the colour.

My recipes were (by application):

1) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water, 1 tbs cinnamon powder.

2) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water, ground cardamom

3) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water, ground cardamom

4) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water

5) Large blob of Beechworth's honey, filtered water, olive oil

My boyfriend has a big jar of Jarrah raw honey which he never uses, so I might steal it and try it on my hair!

I think that you should start measuring the honey instead of eyeing it.

"Large blob" is not the way to go with this, IMO.

Also you need IMO, to switch to distilled water. The minerals in your water may be hindering your progress by depleteing the peroxide level of the honey you use and the peroxide of the added boosters.

gallows_gallery
October 30th, 2008, 11:56 AM
I'll definitely start measuring.

As for distilled water, I really can't afford it. There is a table half way down the page on the chemicals in the water where I live. (groundwater)


http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm#drinking

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 12:05 PM
I'll definitely start measuring.

As for distilled water, I really can't afford it. There is a table half way down the page on the chemicals in the water where I live. (groundwater)


http://www.viacorp.com/perth_water.htm#drinking

Your tap water does not look too bad. Some tap waters are fine but they are the exceptions. The ideal water pH for honey lightening is ph 7.

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 12:21 PM
Body heat does not affect the peroxide in honey, based on the research on wound healing and reported results.

However, other sources of heat can affect peroxide.

"Hydrogen peroxide .... contact with heat .... usually decompose into water and oxygen ...."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron) …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

This is consistant with other information I have read on heat negatively affecting the peroxide level of honey.

And why I recommend that no external heat be used with honey lightening treatments.

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 12:25 PM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring (bottled waters), well water and filtered waters all contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH. It has been reported to yield better results in honey lightening recipes, than any other water used (with the exception of extaordinary tap water, that has the exact same properties, which is rare).


".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html[/quote]

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 01:47 PM
Can anyone give me an exact definition - or pic - for it, and do you re-apply the water+honey mix all throughout the treatment or does the cap manage to keep hair wet all along? [/URL] [URL="http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/?action=view&current=Aftertxt.jpg"] (http://s95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Curls/?action=view&current=Beforetxt.jpg)

I missed this part earlier. Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

meganb990
October 30th, 2008, 02:40 PM
The results I have experienced after only two honey treatments are quite exciting to say the least. My avatar picture shows my results. My color starting out was black and it is reddening up quite a bit. I used ktani's updated honey recipe and a few drops of olive oil and a tiny bit of cinnamon as well. My hair is softer after the treatments as well :). I'm very excited about the results and will continue to try and lighten my hair some more.

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 02:49 PM
The results I have experienced after only two honey treatments are quite exciting to say the least. My avatar picture shows my results. My color starting out was black and it is reddening up quite a bit. I used ktani's updated honey recipe and a few drops of olive oil and a tiny bit of cinnamon as well. My hair is softer after the treatments as well :). I'm very excited about the results and will continue to try and lighten my hair some more.

Thank you for the feedback, both on the colour and the condition of your hair post honey lightening.

I am glad to read that your results have been so swift. Only 2 treatments to get to red from black is excellent IMO.

You are well on your way to lighter hair.

I take it that your hair is naturally black?

meganb990
October 30th, 2008, 02:51 PM
Yes dark brown almost black and I have done a full henna twice and my hair was getting darker and darker. I wanted a redder color from henna not a black color so the honey is really helping lighten some of the henna layers up.

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 03:06 PM
Yes dark brown almost black and I have done a full henna twice and my hair was getting darker and darker. I wanted a redder color from henna not a black color so the honey is really helping lighten some of the henna layers up.

I did not realize that you had hennaed too. Your results are excellent, IMO.

Please continue to update as you go.

ktani
October 30th, 2008, 08:33 PM
For vegans who are opposed to using honey, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide). The honey lightening boosters do not indivdually have a higher peroxide level than most honeys can have.

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 08:26 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 08:27 AM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, recipes and methods used, even on baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of he hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

brok3nwings
October 31st, 2008, 09:19 AM
I had an idea and i wanted to know what you all that have been experimenting honey lightening think. This thread is really big and it is hard to separate the personal experiences from the scientific research. I know that ktani has been doing a great job by getting us a resume from all of it but i suggest even so, getting a separate thread just for talking about it, and we would leave this one for more scientific issues, discoveries, etc. what do you think?

Now about honey, i have done 4 honey lightening treatments and two of them with cardomom. I can now see a lighter shade in my hair. It isnt obvious but i know my hair and i can see it, but i will continue the treatment. Today i will leave the peroxide reliese for about 6 hours and then apply it. I am thinking about trying the olive oil but i dont know how to use it. Do i add it to the mix or to my hair after apllying the mix? Anyway, this has been a long process but with good results

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 09:43 AM
I had an idea and i wanted to know what you all that have been experimenting honey lightening think. This thread is really big and it is hard to separate the personal experiences from the scientific research. I know that ktani has been doing a great job by getting us a resume from all of it but i suggest even so, getting a separate thread just for talking about it, and we would leave this one for more scientific issues, discoveries, etc. what do you think?

Now about honey, i have done 4 honey lightening treatments and two of them with cardomom. I can now see a lighter shade in my hair. It isnt obvious but i know my hair and i can see it, but i will continue the treatment. Today i will leave the peroxide reliese for about 6 hours and then apply it. I am thinking about trying the olive oil but i dont know how to use it. Do i add it to the mix or to my hair after apllying the mix? Anyway, this has been a long process but with good results

I am glad to read that you are making progress and that your hair is lightening.

How is the condition of your hair?

I include the scientific discussion to back up the results and explain how things work, which is important IMO, to better understand the process involved in honey lightening. A number of people ask questions about the process and want to know how it works. I had a separate Honey thread last year for just results, but people still asked questions on how honey lightening worked, so discussion was included.

This one central thread is easier to keep track of for me and I record most posts. If there is something in particular that you are wanting to know, in terms of someone's results, just ask and I will give you the link to the post in question. Successful results, with pictures and recipes are in the Pictures posts as well.

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

I also repeat posts because people miss things or cannot find them and newbies can get intimidated by the size of the thread. Even though I have updated the first post, to include current results and topics, people still miss things. The complete recommendations for honey lightening are in my signature as well.

As for the oil, just mix it into the recipe when you add everything else. None of the ingredients need to be added separately in terms of a time delay. A recipe can be left to sit in advance for 1 hour. That is all of the time necessary for that.

"10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair ....."
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

plainjanegirl
October 31st, 2008, 10:21 AM
I had an idea and i wanted to know what you all that have been experimenting honey lightening think. This thread is really big and it is hard to separate the personal experiences from the scientific research. I know that ktani has been doing a great job by getting us a resume from all of it but i suggest even so, getting a separate thread just for talking about it, and we would leave this one for more scientific issues, discoveries, etc. what do you think?

Now about honey, i have done 4 honey lightening treatments and two of them with cardomom. I can now see a lighter shade in my hair. It isnt obvious but i know my hair and i can see it, but i will continue the treatment. Today i will leave the peroxide reliese for about 6 hours and then apply it. I am thinking about trying the olive oil but i dont know how to use it. Do i add it to the mix or to my hair after apllying the mix? Anyway, this has been a long process but with good results


I agree with you about a separate thread for everybody to just talk about it and one for all the science stuff. Great idea!
I am so glad that you are getting results.

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 10:23 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 10:29 AM
When people do not get the results they want because they used methods that have been explained and have been reported not work, or ask about honey and peroxide, discussion and the reasons behind it are necessary, IMO.

People tend to post without reading material previously presented and get confused or want more information.

plainjanegirl
October 31st, 2008, 10:32 AM
We could take a vote to see how many would like a separate thread ..... kinda like the monistat thread....we can provide the link to the science thread if anyone wants to read it all but otherwise it would be for just our personal experiences. Does this sound like a good idea?

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 10:41 AM
That is exactly what I tried last year without the vote, and it did not work out. I thought that it was a good idea then. It resulted in two very long Honey threads instead of just one. The one for results only, plus a Honey Article that people could and did post responses to, had people new to honey lightening, wanting answers to how it worked, about peroxide, methods and explanations for all of it. Even with the link to the main thread, I wound up having to explain things continuously.

People often read posts in a hurry or not at all and repeat questions are the result. It is not the science or the discussion that is the problem IMO, it is our busy lifestyles and people being rushed for time.

It is not a viable choice, based on past experience.

This thread is central, with records. I can access the information needed, on request.

wintersun99
October 31st, 2008, 11:51 AM
I had an idea and i wanted to know what you all that have been experimenting honey lightening think. This thread is really big and it is hard to separate the personal experiences from the scientific research. I know that ktani has been doing a great job by getting us a resume from all of it but i suggest even so, getting a separate thread just for talking about it, and we would leave this one for more scientific issues, discoveries, etc. what do you think?



I agree with you about a separate thread for everybody to just talk about it and one for all the science stuff. Great idea!

I like the way it is.

It's convenient that all the information, experiments, personal experiences and research is in one place and if one doesn't want to read the whole thread, the quick links in ktani's signature is all one needs. I think separating the thread makes it more difficult to find information. Besides, threads never stay separate anyway, the info usually ends up being jumbled and segmented. I think that people should just take the time to read the thread when the have the time. Again, the condensed info is in both ktani's signature and the Articles section. :twocents:

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 11:59 AM
I like the way it is.

It's convenient that all the information, experiments, personal experiences and research is in one place and if one doesn't want to read the whole thread, the quick links in ktani's signature is all one needs. I think separating the thread makes it more difficult to find information. Besides, threads never stay separate anyway, the info usually ends up being jumbled and segmented. I think that people should just take the time to read the thread when the have the time. Again, the condensed info is in both ktani's signature and the Articles section. :twocents:

Thank you.

I have broken the information down further here, by topic, for even faster reference.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

plainjanegirl
October 31st, 2008, 12:12 PM
Well is there any way ktani could just add all the science stuff to her signature information instead of repeating the same stuff over and over? That way if someone wants to read it they go to that section. Much like monistat and other threads....much easier.

Cause you might have a few post by people throughout the day but then there may be 5-10 posts back to back by ktani and we have to go back through all of those to get to the others.

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 12:15 PM
Well is there any way ktani could just add all the science stuff to her signature information instead of repeating the same stuff over and over? That way if someone wants to read it they go to that section. Much like monistat and other threads....much easier.

The signature is limited to what I can put there. I do not have to repeat things as often as I do but I do it because people often to not read it and then ask about it. I often get pms about things I respond to and then post about as well.

Velouria
October 31st, 2008, 01:06 PM
plainjanegirl, if you don't want to read the reiterated scientific methodology it should be painless enough to scroll past it.

I have seen how on this thread, and in others, people often ask questions about things that have already been thoroughly explained. And I can only imagine how many pm's ktani must get.

RocketDog
October 31st, 2008, 01:24 PM
I did my first honey treatment last night - 2 tbsp clover honey, 1tbsp ground cinnamon, 1 tbsp coconut oil and 12 tbsp distilled water, 90 minute soak under plastic wrap. My hair doesn't look lighter, but it is less frizzy and the texture seems more even (normally I have really bad kinky frizz at the base of my neck, today I just have s-curls!)

plainjanegirl
October 31st, 2008, 01:41 PM
Well in the monistat thread when people start asking the same questions then they refer them to where to read about instead of repeating everything continuously.

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 02:56 PM
I did my first honey treatment last night - 2 tbsp clover honey, 1tbsp ground cinnamon, 1 tbsp coconut oil and 12 tbsp distilled water, 90 minute soak under plastic wrap. My hair doesn't look lighter, but it is less frizzy and the texture seems more even (normally I have really bad kinky frizz at the base of my neck, today I just have s-curls!)

Thank you for the feedback and I am glad to hear that the condition of your hair is good.

Your recipe sounds fine. It could be the honey. Clover honey works well in general but some clover honeys have been reported to be poor peroxide producers. Did you try one from this list?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 02:59 PM
Well in the monistat thread when people start asking the same questions then they refer them to where to read about instead of repeating everything continuously.

I prefer to give the information rather than refer people to where they can find it. Different threads work differently.

The other day you mentioned that you were going to post pictures of your current results. How did that go?

And while you said that you were pleased with your results, you did not mention the condition of your hair.

How is the condition of your hair after this latest treatment?

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 03:11 PM
I have seen how on this thread, and in others, people often ask questions about things that have already been thoroughly explained. And I can only imagine how many pm's ktani must get.

I do get frequent questions by pm that of course I do not post but I do post about the topic because I feel that it is important.

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 03:53 PM
There is still some confusion about the honey lightening boosters.

All of them, two spices and two oils, add extra peroxide to a recipe, when no heat is added to them at any point, prior to use. More than one booster can be used at one time in a recipe.

My recommendation, based on reports, is gound cardamom over ground or powdered cinnamon because it has a higher peroxide value and it has been reported to wash out of the hair the easiest of the two.
There is also a caution for ground cassia cinnamon use, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382.

Of the two oils, evoo (extra virgin olive oil) and coconut oil, evoo has the higher peroxide value but according to some, it is more difficult to wash out of the hair.

For the spices, the suggested maximum is 2 tablespoons per treatment and I recommend that if the maximum is used, that the recipe size be increased. 1/4 cup of honey to 1.5 cups distilled water US or 12 tablespoons, IMO is preferable because the spices are acidic, and this quantity has been reported to work well. That has to do with the best pH of the solution for honey lightening.

For the oils, 1 tablespoon is the suggested maximum per treatment, and 1/2 tablespoon has been reported to be sufficient and easier to wash out of the hair, regardless of which oil is used. For longer and thicker hair 1 tablespoon is recommended.

All honey lightening ingredients should be mixed toogether at one time. However, the spices can be added after the honey is added to the distilled water, to make a smoother solution.

Both spices can be irritants and should be patch tested.

brok3nwings
October 31st, 2008, 04:21 PM
well, i can see the two different opinions about the thread, my thing is, i really would love to hear from the people that is experimenting this and i would love that people responded to my experiences. I know that ktani is the best person to ask anything related to things that has to do with the recipe and honey, but there is something else besides that or isnt it? How people feel with their new colour of hair? How do you deal with all the mess at home? (last time my bathroom was a really mess with a funky smell), anyway, maybe not a new thread my finding a way of not having to post so much about the same thing, unless there´s a new discovery. I know there should be many people asking stuff, i understand that cause i am one of those, but let them come and ask ;)

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 04:29 PM
well, i can see the two different opinions about the thread, my thing is, i really would love to hear from the people that is experimenting this and i would love that people responded to my experiences. I know that ktani is the best person to ask anything related to things that has to do with the recipe and honey, but there is something else besides that or isnt it? How people feel with their new colour of hair? How do you deal with all the mess at home? (last time my bathroom was a really mess with a funky smell), anyway, maybe not a new thread my finding a way of not having to post so much about the same thing, unless there´s a new discovery. I know there should be many people asking stuff, i understand that cause i am one of those, but let them come and ask ;)

Your questions are good. Most people report about how they feel about their new colour in their results.

I concentrate on asking about the condition of the hair post honey lightening and go over recipe details and methods, to try to help those who do not get the results that they were after and want suggestions.

People have reported how they deal with drips. That was a big concern when the recipes changed from no conditioner to just distilled water.

I also posted about that here http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=307685&postcount=2442.

That was and still is discussed in results reports, along with different methods for application, which I have included in the recommendation posts.

People do respond to results posts but that is unpredictable.

brok3nwings
October 31st, 2008, 04:39 PM
ktani i can imagine...a very liquid recipe it is SO much harder to do... i mean, before it was as if we were doing a deep conditioning treatment! I know that for me, the only thing that made me go on was the swimming cap. I was going to give up, as i told you. I dont use only one swimming cap, i use TWO :P yes, i bought them cause one of them was very flexible and the other one is better to hold in place. So the first one i use to put my hair, and the second avoids the water from going "out". Even so if i let the mix in my hair for two hours (as i usually do) it is almost dry at that time. and one thing i am sure, i couldnt see any difference at the beginning, i think some type of hairs need a lot of pacience and time

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 04:45 PM
ktani i can imagine...a very liquid recipe it is SO much harder to do... i mean, before it was as if we were doing a deep conditioning treatment! I know that for me, the only thing that made me go on was the swimming cap. I was going to give up, as i told you. I dont use only one swimming cap, i use TWO :P yes, i bought them cause one of them was very flexible and the other one is better to hold in place. So the first one i use to put my hair, and the second avoids the water from going "out". Even so if i let the mix in my hair for two hours (as i usually do) it is almost dry at that time. and one thing i am sure, i couldnt see any difference at the beginning, i think some type of hairs need a lot of pacience and time

Yes, the liquid recipes are harder to deal with but they only need to be left on the hair for 1 hour to yield better results, as opposed to many, compared to previous reported results and dilutions, and a swim cap is the best covering IMO.

And yes, some hair colours do require more patience than others, depending both on the starting colour and what is on the hair, like multiple layers of henna and conventional colour.

I created this post to help explain that too, which I added here http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1 and which I have repeated, throughout the thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291820&postcount=2342

I now post the most requested topic information in the first post of this thread, and have made a point of repeating the posts because they often get overlooked.

SeaPhoenix
October 31st, 2008, 05:42 PM
I like that the newest info is always posted, or updated on here - I wouldn't normally think to go back to page one to check for updates. When it's just a re-posting of something, I just scroll through to see if anything new is added. I definitely prefer this format to a 2 thread format. One less thread to subscribe to!

ktani
October 31st, 2008, 05:48 PM
I like that the newest info is always posted, or updated on here - I wouldn't normally think to go back to page one to check for updates. When it's just a re-posting of something, I just scroll through to see if anything new is added. I definitely prefer this format to a 2 thread format. One less thread to subscribe to!

Thank you.

I am glad to hear that the repetition is not a problem for you.

I have actually found that although some people do read Honey regularly, I get comments on a post that I have repeated more than once, because someone has read it for the first time.

RocketDog
October 31st, 2008, 09:56 PM
Thank you for the feedback and I am glad to hear that the condition of your hair is good.

Your recipe sounds fine. It could be the honey. Clover honey works well in general but some clover honeys have been reported to be poor peroxide producers. Did you try one from this list?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin


It's Miller's brand clover honey. Now that my hair is completely dry and I've had time to look at it under different light sources, I think it may be SLIGHTLY lighter, but I could be fooling myself. I have about two and a half inches of virgin regrowth and the rest of my hair was last dyed a shade just slightly darker and redder than my natural color. The dyed portion seems a tidge less brassy, but again I could be fooling myself. I'll take a photo after my next honey treatment to see if the photos show a difference.

Velouria
October 31st, 2008, 11:02 PM
Success! I tried the currently recommended recipe tonight and got definite results!

I'd tried the old way with conditioner a few times (a while back), and never got a noticeable result. My hair is hennaed, with lighter, previously chemically dyed ends. I've decided to grow out the henna (because it's flattening my curls) and was/am hoping to make my med.brown roots, my too-raspberry-toned (another reason I'm quitting henna) henna-over-virgin hair, and my lighter, warmer, henna-over-dye ends.....BLEND!

Well, I'm pretty sure the raspberry tone is GONE (praise be) and replaced by a warm auburn, but I'll need to wait for daytime (that tone shows most in indirect sunlight) to be sure. But it's definitely warmer, and lighter. And my brown roots are lighter and a wee bit orangey-reddish, which is what I wanted. My ends were already lighter than I wanted, so I coated them with a cone-filled leave-in before the treatment, so the honey wouldn't work on them. Seems to have worked, they look the same.

I used 2 tblsp. of honey, stirred into a measuring cup containing 3/4 c. distilled water. Poured in spray bottle, and applied about 2/3rds of the liquid immediately (because I intended to leave in at least 2 hrs.) to freshly shampooed, slightly damp hair (with aforementioned leave-in on ends). Covered with a disposable shower cap, and a towel turban to catch drips.

After about an hour, I took of the coverings and re-wet my hair with the remaining liquid, then covered again. I'm glad I did this, because the hair was no longer soaking wet when I unwrapped, just very damp. I planned to rinse after another hour, but got into a movie and left it on another 2. So, 3 hrs. all together.

I rinsed, ACV rinsed, and CO'ed all but my scalp (CO and my scalp don't mix). My hair's now soft, very curly, and shiny.


Sorry this was so long, I'm just so into this now that it worked!

ktani
November 1st, 2008, 05:19 AM
Success! I tried the currently recommended recipe tonight and got definite results!

I'd tried the old way with conditioner a few times (a while back), and never got a noticeable result. My hair is hennaed, with lighter, previously chemically dyed ends. I've decided to grow out the henna (because it's flattening my curls) and was/am hoping to make my med.brown roots, my too-raspberry-toned (another reason I'm quitting henna) henna-over-virgin hair, and my lighter, warmer, henna-over-dye ends.....BLEND!

Well, I'm pretty sure the raspberry tone is GONE (praise be) and replaced by a warm auburn, but I'll need to wait for daytime (that tone shows most in indirect sunlight) to be sure. But it's definitely warmer, and lighter. And my brown roots are lighter and a wee bit orangey-reddish, which is what I wanted. My ends were already lighter than I wanted, so I coated them with a cone-filled leave-in before the treatment, so the honey wouldn't work on them. Seems to have worked, they look the same.

I used 2 tblsp. of honey, stirred into a measuring cup containing 3/4 c. distilled water. Poured in spray bottle, and applied about 2/3rds of the liquid immediately (because I intended to leave in at least 2 hrs.) to freshly shampooed, slightly damp hair (with aforementioned leave-in on ends). Covered with a disposable shower cap, and a towel turban to catch drips.

After about an hour, I took of the coverings and re-wet my hair with the remaining liquid, then covered again. I'm glad I did this, because the hair was no longer soaking wet when I unwrapped, just very damp. I planned to rinse after another hour, but got into a movie and left it on another 2. So, 3 hrs. all together.

I rinsed, ACV rinsed, and CO'ed all but my scalp (CO and my scalp don't mix). My hair's now soft, very curly, and shiny.


Sorry this was so long, I'm just so into this now that it worked!

Thank you for the report. No worries about its length.

I am really pleased for you that you got the lightening you wanted, so far, as you can determine from the lighting.

I was confused by the rewetting until you explained that your hair was just damp after 1 hour.

I think that you should alter your method to include a swim cap, to keep the hair very wet for the whole time that a treatment is on your hair or try a plastic bag or saran that fits securely.

You should then only need 1 hour to get the lightening you want and it should be more convenient. By doing this your results should not only be faster but more even too, although covering the ends the way you did sounds perfect to get what you wanted. Shower caps seem to be a problem in being securable and keeping the hair very wet.

However, if you are pleased with your method, and it works for you, it is up to you.

I look forward to hearing how your hair looks in daylight and the condition of your hair.

For hennaed hair, I recommend adding 1 or 2 of the honey lightening boosters, also to help speed results.

After patch testing, powdered cardamom or ground cinnamon are popular choices, along with 1/2 to 1 tablespoon of evoo or coconut oil.

For the amount of your recipe, you should only need 1 tablespoon or less (1/2) tablespoon of a spice.

ktani
November 1st, 2008, 05:37 AM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet both before being covered and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice. Also recommened, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Here is some information on swim caps. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258)

A dry towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all. A wet towel has been reported to be used successfully to help stop drips, while not helping to dry hair.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

ktani
November 1st, 2008, 06:22 AM
I have redone the "Covering a honey lightening treatment" link in the first post, and replaced it with the post above this.

ktani
November 1st, 2008, 11:12 AM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with the unstabilized hydrogen peroxide (as opposed to the stabilized conventional kind) of a honey lightening recipe and can deplete the peroxide levels.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

Velouria
November 1st, 2008, 11:56 AM
I forgot to mention what type of honey I used: Aunt Sue's Raw-Wild Natural. It doesn't say what the plant source is, but I would imagine that wild honey would always be an unknown blend.

Looking at my hair in the lighting conditions where the raspberryishness had previously been the most evident, I can still see it. There was a definite lifting/warming of it, though. I think a few more treatments should get all of it out.

I think I will try adding cinnamon next time. The oils are out because I try to minimizing shampooing, and as I have to shampoo before the treatment, adding a mixture containing oils to my root area would necessitate another shampoo, which my hair-type can't take.

I'll try a bag next time, maybe with a shower cap on top. I don't have the skill to properly wrap my head in saran, as I learned from hennaing. A swim cap would, I'm sure, be best, but I can't afford any inessential purchases right now.

ktani
November 1st, 2008, 12:04 PM
I forgot to mention what type of honey I used: Aunt Sue's Raw-Wild Natural. It doesn't say what the plant source is, but I would imagine that wild honey would always be an unknown blend.

Looking at my hair in the lighting conditions where the raspberryishness had previously been the most evident, I can still see it. There was a definite lifting/warming of it, though. I think a few more treatments should get all of it out.

I think I will try adding cinnamon next time. The oils are out because I try to minimizing shampooing, and as I have to shampoo before the treatment, adding a mixture containing oils to my root area would necessitate another shampoo, which my hair-type can't take.

I'll try a bag next time, maybe with a shower cap on top. I don't have the skill to properly wrap my head in saran, as I learned from hennaing. A swim cap would, I'm sure, be best, but I can't afford any inessential purchases right now.

Thank you for the name of the honey. I just added it to the Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom would be fine.

You do not have to wash your hair before a honey lightening treatment. If your do not have any leave-in like aloe gel or conditioner or other product build-up on your hair, you can do a treatment on unwashed hair.

A treatment does not have to be washed out of the hair with shampoo. You can CO it out or just rinse.

A bag and shower cap sounds fine, as long as the plastic is secure.

I am glad to read that the colour has slightly lifted, in daylight.

How is the condition of your hair?

ktani
November 1st, 2008, 08:29 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

SeaPhoenix
November 2nd, 2008, 02:09 AM
Hey! I just wanted to add a little something. I think after all this time, maybe the honey recipes did work a bit after all. I just compared the henna'd ends of my hair to an old photo of the color I used to keep my henna'd hair up until the time I decided to stop coloring.. Wow - what a difference in color! Though I think some of this might have been due to natural fading - I don't think it would have faded so dramatically over this past year without the frequent attempts with honey lightening. Here's my forum post about it, if you're interested:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=14695 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=14695)

ktani
November 2nd, 2008, 06:07 AM
Hey! I just wanted to add a little something. I think after all this time, maybe the honey recipes did work a bit after all. I just compared the henna'd ends of my hair to an old photo of the color I used to keep my henna'd hair up until the time I decided to stop coloring.. Wow - what a difference in color! Though I think some of this might have been due to natural fading - I don't think it would have faded so dramatically over this past year without the frequent attempts with honey lightening. Here's my forum post about it, if you're interested:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=14695 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=14695)

Henna has been known to fade but I agree with you. I do not think it would have faded anywhere near this much on its own with the amount of henna that you had on your hair.

You are not the first to not be able to see honey lightening results gradual lightening, until pictures were compared.

Different recipes work differently too. The new dilution recipes have been reported to work much better than previous dilutions and recipes.

Your hair looks great, IMO.

I am pleased for you that you are pleased with your hair.

Velouria
November 2nd, 2008, 10:36 AM
Thank you for the name of the honey. I just added it to the Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom would be fine.

You do not have to wash your hair before a honey lightening treatment. If your do not have any leave-in like aloe gel or conditioner or other product build-up on your hair, you can do a treatment on unwashed hair.

A treatment does not have to be washed out of the hair with shampoo. You can CO it out or just rinse.

A bag and shower cap sounds fine, as long as the plastic is secure.

I am glad to read that the colour has slightly lifted, in daylight.

How is the condition of your hair?

I almost always have leave-in, oil, and gel (either homemade flaxseed or aloe) in my hair. All 3 at once! It's necessary for frizz-control, especially on my damaged ends. So, I think I should shampoo before one of these treatments.

I used conditioner (and a vinegar rinse) to wash out my treatment, but what I meant was that if I added one of the oils to the treatment, I'd need to shampoo afterwards, as I do get oily in the root area; I oil normally, but only from the ears down. I can't do a full CO-type wash, as conditioner on my scalp makes me shed. I alternate WO- type washes except with conditioner from the ears down, with shampoo bars, and an occasional shampoo with a mild SMS (sodium myreth sulfate) product. This last is what I used before the honey treatment, as the shampoo bars leave a coating that I thought might interfere.

The condition of my hair right now is wonderful; soft, shiny, and hydrated. Except for the last few inches of dye damage, that's wretched, but perhaps less so than usual.

I'm planning on doing another treatment tonight, but I'm combining it into a yogurt DT. I know you won't approve, ktani;and I do fully realize that the honey won't work optimally like this, but I've been meaning to use the yogurt anyway, and adding honey to it might lighten a bit more, and seems beneficial to my hair anyway.

I'm going to mix yogurt, honey, ev olive oil, and a bit of cinnamon.
I won't shampoo before it, as, for once, I have nothing in my hair but a little oil on the ends. I expect to be greasy afterwards (I'm using full-fat yogurt), so I'll wash it out with a shampoo bar.

ktani
November 2nd, 2008, 10:50 AM
I almost always have leave-in, oil, and gel (either homemade flaxseed or aloe) in my hair. All 3 at once! It's necessary for frizz-control, especially on my damaged ends. So, I think I should shampoo before one of these treatments.

I used conditioner (and a vinegar rinse) to wash out my treatment, but what I meant was that if I added one of the oils to the treatment, I'd need to shampoo afterwards, as I do get oily in the root area; I oil normally, but only from the ears down. I can't do a full CO-type wash, as conditioner on my scalp makes me shed. I alternate WO- type washes except with conditioner from the ears down, with shampoo bars, and an occasional shampoo with a mild SMS (sodium myreth sulfate) product. This last is what I used before the honey treatment, as the shampoo bars leave a coating that I thought might interfere.

The condition of my hair right now is wonderful; soft, shiny, and hydrated. Except for the last few inches of dye damage, that's wretched, but perhaps less so than usual.

I'm planning on doing another treatment tonight, but I'm combining it into a yogurt DT. I know you won't approve, ktani;and I do fully realize that the honey won't work optimally like this, but I've been meaning to use the yogurt anyway, and adding honey to it might lighten a bit more, and seems beneficial to my hair anyway.

I'm going to mix yogurt, honey, ev olive oil, and a bit of cinnamon.
I won't shampoo before it, as, for once, I have nothing in my hair but a little oil on the ends. I expect to be greasy afterwards (I'm using full-fat yogurt), so I'll wash it out with a shampoo bar.

I am glad to hear that the condition of your hair is good post honey lightening.

I agree that with your leave-ins, the flax seed and aloe in particular, that you should wash your hair in advance as well. Both can delpete the honey lightening recipe peroxide level, particularly, the aloe gel.

Yogurt was once a honey lightening booster. Probiotic yogurt has a peroxide value, but not as high as the current honey lightening boosters.

I see no problem to your adding it to the new recipes and dilution. It may help lighten your hair even more. Just use the new dilution as your guide and perhaps, depending on the amount of yogurt you intend to use, increase the recipe amount, to 1/4 cup honey and 1.5 cups US or 12 oz distilled water, because yogurt is acidic. The optimal pH for a honey/water solution is pH 6.

ktani
November 2nd, 2008, 11:08 AM
Someone mixed honey and yogurt together, and wound up having an awful time with dry hair and I believe, the smell. It was last year and I do not remember all of the details. It may have been that the honey was not diluted properly (yogurt does not contain that much water), honey residue and the kind of yogurt used.

Adding yogurt to the new dilution and recipes in small quantities, 1 or 2 tablespoons may not be a problem.

ktani
November 2nd, 2008, 11:29 AM
I found the yogurt honey thread I was referring to. There was more yogurt than honey used. Other recipes with different proportions and more ingredients, were reported to be fine but this was just the 2 ingredients.
http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=69393

Reading it again, I doubt if the small amount of honey could have been the whole problem. Now I would recommend shampooing for honey residue but I think that the yogurt was just too much for her hair. After reading the other posts as well, I removed yogurt from the honey lightening boosters list.

ktani
November 2nd, 2008, 09:25 PM
Here is an article, updated from when I researched Alpha hydroxy acids last year.

".... concentrations of AHAs in foods are not as high as those found in store-bought cosmetics ....
Alpha hydroxy acids .... are currently being tested by the FDA .... there are results that show that it may indeed help reduce skin aging effects, and sun damage, but .... also been studies that have shown that they can cause damage if used long term and easily trigger skin and irritation in some people. Products that contain AHA include: Lactic Acid (used for skin exfoliation and softening) Yogurt * Buttermilk * ...."
http://www.kristensguide.com/Health/Beauty/homemade_skin_care_products.asp

To me is the same principle as not overdoing the use of certain plants and herbs because of possible toxicity. There are acids and enzymes in some foods that exfoliate skin, and have softening properties. However, I would not want to put them on my hair full strength, long term, and risk them helping to break down hair keratin.

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 05:42 AM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 05:51 AM
It's Miller's brand clover honey. Now that my hair is completely dry and I've had time to look at it under different light sources, I think it may be SLIGHTLY lighter, but I could be fooling myself. I have about two and a half inches of virgin regrowth and the rest of my hair was last dyed a shade just slightly darker and redder than my natural color. The dyed portion seems a tidge less brassy, but again I could be fooling myself. I'll take a photo after my next honey treatment to see if the photos show a difference.

Sorry, I missed your reply.

Try a clover or other honey from the Successful Honeys List and perhaps increase the cinnamon booster to 2 tablespoons or replace it with cardamom after patch testing.

Pictures are always welcome.

Velouria
November 3rd, 2008, 11:41 AM
I am glad to hear that the condition of your hair is good post honey lightening.

I agree that with your leave-ins, the flax seed and aloe in particular, that you should wash your hair in advance as well. Both can delpete the honey lightening recipe peroxide level, particularly, the aloe gel.

Yogurt was once a honey lightening booster. Probiotic yogurt has a peroxide value, but not as high as the current honey lightening boosters.

I see no problem to your adding it to the new recipes and dilution. It may help lighten your hair even more. Just use the new dilution as your guide and perhaps, depending on the amount of yogurt you intend to use, increase the recipe amount, to 1/4 cup honey and 1.5 cups US or 12 oz distilled water, because yogurt is acidic. The optimal pH for a honey/water solution is pH 6.

I didn't use the new recipe and dilution, although I plan on using it again (with just honey, cinnamon and distilled water) next week.

This was more of a DT/ maybe-hopefully lighten a bit more-hair mask. I didn't measure the yogurt, just put some in a bowl, added 1tblsp. each olive oil, honey, cinnamon, and distilled water. I left it on 2 hrs. (under plastic bag and shower-cap), rinsed and washed with a CV shampoo bar, vinegar rinsed and air-dried.

My results are less definite this time. The problem is, my hair is still greasy. One lather with the babassu-marshmallow was definitely not enough to remove the excess milk-fat and olive oil. And greasy hair looks darker. So, my hair definitely doesn't look lighter, and in fact it looks darker than it did, but I'm pretty sure this is because of its oiliness. BUT the raspberry-toned areas do look still less cool-toned than they did after the last treatment...being dark with oil, they just look browner rather than lighter. I'm washing again tomorrow, so I'll have a better idea about results then.

Condition-wise, my hair feels fantastic, though it looks greasy. It loves honey; I've always had good results with yogurt (never had such greasiness with it before, that must be from adding olive oil), but adding honey to it gave my hair even more softness/ hydration. You can really feel and see honeys humectant properties when you use it on your hair, it's a different feel than you get from emollients, like oils.

Thanks for the info on yogurt. I suspect that the immediately visible problems some people have with it are protein related. Protein-containing products and recipes have always been beneficial for my hair, but so many people report problems with them.

I didn't know that yogurt was high in AHA's, though. That is a concern...those acids eat away at protein.....when it's removing dead cells from the skin, that's a good thing (in moderation), but we want to keep all of the dead cells that our hair is composed of!
That may explain why yogurt makes the hair feel soft...it weakens its fiber, the same way the fabric-softening chemicals in most commercial conditioners do.

Knowing this , I won't be using yogurt on my hair again, (despite its seeming good results) only on my skin.

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 11:51 AM
I didn't use the new recipe and dilution, although I plan on using it again (with just honey, cinnamon and distilled water) next week.

This was more of a DT/ maybe-hopefully lighten a bit more-hair mask. I didn't measure the yogurt, just put some in a bowl, added 1tblsp. each olive oil, honey, cinnamon, and distilled water. I left it on 2 hrs. (under plastic bag and shower-cap), rinsed and washed with a CV shampoo bar, vinegar rinsed and air-dried.

My results are less definite this time. The problem is, my hair is still greasy. One lather with the babassu-marshmallow was definitely not enough to remove the excess milk-fat and olive oil. And greasy hair looks darker. So, my hair definitely doesn't look lighter, and in fact it looks darker than it did, but I'm pretty sure this is because of its oiliness. BUT the raspberry-toned areas do look still less cool-toned than they did after the last treatment...being dark with oil, they just look browner rather than lighter. I'm washing again tomorrow, so I'll have a better idea about results then.

Condition-wise, my hair feels fantastic, though it looks greasy. It loves honey; I've always had good results with yogurt (never had such greasiness with it before, that must be from adding olive oil), but adding honey to it gave my hair even more softness/ hydration. You can really feel and see honeys humectant properties when you use it on your hair, it's a different feel than you get from emollients, like oils.

Thanks for the info on yogurt. I suspect that the immediately visible problems some people have with it are protein related. Protein-containing products and recipes have always been beneficial for my hair, but so many people report problems with them.

I didn't know that yogurt was high in AHA's, though. That is a concern...those acids eat away at protein.....when it's removing dead cells from the skin, that's a good thing (in moderation), but we want to keep all of the dead cells that our hair is composed of!
That may explain why yogurt makes the hair feel soft...it weakens its fiber, the same way the fabric-softening chemicals in most commercial conditioners do.

Knowing this , I won't be using yogurt on my hair again, (despite its seeming good results) only on my skin.

I cannot figure out what a DT is, lol. It escapes me.

If you did not use that much water, the pH of the solution would not have been optimal for the honey to produce that much peroxide, since both the honey and the yogurt are quite acidic.

The amount of lactic acid in yogurt would IMO, take a while to be damaging to hair but used full strength (without dilution or with minimal dilution), over time, I think it could happen.

Oils in a honey lightening recipe can be difficult to wash out. Most people prefer to use less than 1 tablespoon but it depends on the length and thickness of the hair and the amount of the recipe used.

I am pleased for you that the condition of your hair is good, if a little greasy.

Velouria
November 3rd, 2008, 12:00 PM
DT=deep treatment. I try not to use too many acronyms, but I slip a lot...

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 12:02 PM
DT=deep treatment. I try not to use too many acronyms, but I slip a lot...

Ahh, makes sense, Thank you. I try not to use too many either.

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 12:25 PM
That may explain why yogurt makes the hair feel soft...it weakens its fiber, the same way the fabric-softening chemicals in most commercial conditioners do.


The softening chemicals in hair conditioners are the waxy type ingredients, quaternium compounds, oils and humectants, which act like barriers to help keep moisture in the hair or attract moisture to the hair. They do not act as exfoliants. That is specific to certain chemicals, usually at low pH levels.

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 12:42 PM
More on alpha hydroxy acids and foods. This article is older than the one I posted earlier but it has some good basics.

".... Alpha-hydroxy acids are commonly found and isolated from fruits of all sorts .... why they are referred to as fruit acids. .... malic acid is found in apples, citric acid can be isolated from most all citrus fruits and glycolic acid is commonly found in honey or sugar cane. .... AHAs is from the fermentation of natural products. Lactic acid is found in milk that has soured, and tartaric acid can be isolated from fermented grapes (wine)

exfoliating action of AHAs occurs as a result of their ability to break the bonds between dead skin cells that form at the surface of the skin. .... AHAs can speed up the normal process of skin cell regeneration and sloughing. .... When applied in the high concentrations of a peel, AHA's operate at a deeper level ....

The optimum pH for cell renewal stimulation was at about 3.0. At a pH above 6.0 very little stimulation was observed for any of the acids. In general, AHAs at a pH of 6.0 or greater behave more like moisturizers than exfoliating ...."
http://labshelf.com/alpha-hydroxy-acids.html

Another vote IMO, for the new dilution with distilled water, which has a higher pH level than previous honey lightening recipes.

The glycolic acid level of honey varies with the honey. Even with the lower pH levels of previous honey lightening recipes, no hair damage was reported.

The pH of yogurt is about 4.5
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publications/nchfp/factsheets/yogurt.html

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 03:31 PM
Honey wound healing and scarring 2008
(This pdf has duplicate text for some unknown reason.)

Honey activates the body's own protein digesting enzymes in a wound, according to this but it is not reported here, to exfoliate skin itself.

"Honey .... leaves infected wounds very clean, because .... ability to break down the "biofilm" found in many wounds. .... also has anti-inflammatory properties, reducing pain .... also can reduce scarring.

.... Professor Peter Molan, who heads the Honey Research Unit at the University of Waikato. Molan, a biochemist, .... researching the properties of honey for about 23 years. .... anti-bacterial properties were particularly high in manuka honey, from New Zealand. .... high levels have since been discovered in honey produced from other plants of the Leptospermum species ....

.... Molan ....continuing to investigate the properties of honey and .... how it activates the protein-digesting enzymes in wound tissues .... he believes are responsible for honey leaving wounds so clean, without damaging the surrounding skin.

His own recent .... with plastic surgery .... moles were removed from his hand, allowed Molan to test honey's scar prevention properties.
"My plastic surgeon warned me that I would have a scar. I put a honey dressing on straight away afterwards and kept it on for about a week afterwards and there's not a mark left there now. I had an information sheet on how to deal with the pain, but I had no pain."
http://www.louthbeekeepers.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=31

brok3nwings
November 3rd, 2008, 05:30 PM
is there any scientific reason why we should let the honey mix seat for one hour? And not less or more? Is it a risk if we let it be for too long, that the peroxide stops making effect? Or am i doing stupid/silly questions ? ehe :) Ah ! And i dont know if someone has already done this question either...

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 05:39 PM
is there any scientific reason why we should let the honey mix seat for one hour? And not less or more? Is it a risk if we let it be for too long, that the peroxide stops making effect? Or am i doing stupid/silly questions ? ehe :) Ah ! And i dont know if someone has already done this question either...

First, I do not consider any question stupid or silly. It does not matter if a question has been asked before or not. I will still answer it.

I based the new dilution on this link, on testing a honey for its peroxide value. There is a typo in the sentence. It should read waiting.

"After 1 hour of weating, the maximum amount of hydrogen-peroxide is present."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

One interpretation after further research, is that the amount of peroxide is the maximum for that amount of time and that more can still be produced with extended time.

So if you let a treatment sit at room temperature for 1 hour, then apply it to your hair, there are 2 hours in total that a recipe has to produce peroxide.

By not applying heat other than body heat, or UV or have minerals or Vitamin C in a recipe, a recipe should still be good for quite a while.

brok3nwings
November 3rd, 2008, 05:50 PM
thats good to know because that way it doesnt mean "the longer the better" at least before putting it into the hair.
I have one thing to add, thats not something i am completly sure about but i have the impression that honey lightening works better when i shampoo first (and not condition) than when i dont (even if i dont use any leave in or aloe vera). I dont know if theres anything to do with the fact that, shampooing without conditioner makes your hair more porous so it takes better the peroxide. i dont know, just a thought.

ktani
November 3rd, 2008, 05:58 PM
thats good to know because that way it doesnt mean "the longer the better" at least before putting it into the hair.
I have one thing to add, thats not something i am completly sure about but i have the impression that honey lightening works better when i shampoo first (and not condition) than when i dont (even if i dont use any leave in or aloe vera). I dont know if theres anything to do with the fact that, shampooing without conditioner makes your hair more porous so it takes better the peroxide. i dont know, just a thought.

It is better to have the least residue on your hair and that includes conditioner. However, a treatment can be put on unwashed hair without a leave-in, that does not have conditioner build-up.

Some conditioners contain ingredients that can interfere with honey lightening. That is one of the reasons conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in a recipe.

Rinsed out it is less of a problem, depending on how heavy a conditioner it is. Some conditioners have more waxy type ingredients in them that act as barriers. It is similar to having a lot of oil on your hair, in that a thick conditioner can act like a barrier to the water in the treatment.

ktani
November 4th, 2008, 08:40 AM
I added a post on organic acids here, that includes discussion on honey.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=328155&postcount=93

brok3nwings
November 4th, 2008, 09:36 AM
well, i do a lot of CO cause when i shampoo my hair seams to dry a lot, one of the conditioners i like to use is Honeysuckle from Aubrey Organics and although it doesnt build up with chemicals it does build up a bit with oils, as it has a lot of them.

I have another question. I dont know exactly what an enzime is. I am not related with science, i am more of an artist :p so an enzime is a bacteria or something that can be destroied right? My question is: Does the peroxide stays always connected with the enzime? If for example we put some heat on the mix after one hour (peroxide at its maximum) would it kill the enzime and peroxide or only the enzime that would no longer be necessary (in case they are not connected all the way). I know that probably i dont make sence at all but this is something i dont understand about...

ktani
November 4th, 2008, 09:46 AM
well, i do a lot of CO cause when i shampoo my hair seams to dry a lot, one of the conditioners i like to use is Honeysuckle from Aubrey Organics and although it doesnt build up with chemicals it does build up a bit with oils, as it has a lot of them.

I have another question. I dont know exactly what an enzime is. I am not related with science, i am more of an artist :p so an enzime is a bacteria or something that can be destroied right? My question is: Does the peroxide stays always connected with the enzime? If for example we put some heat on the mix after one hour (peroxide at its maximum) would it kill the enzime and peroxide or only the enzime that would no longer be necessary (in case they are not connected all the way). I know that probably i dont make sence at all but this is something i dont understand about...

I think that you ask interesting questions.

Here is a link on enzymes. It will give you some basics.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/E/Enzymes.html

As for heat and honey lightning, it is not recommended at any point (other than body heat) because it can help break down the hydrogen peroxide. Hydrogen peroxide that is produced naturally, has not been stabilized, like conventional peroxide, with additives. So it is more susceptible to the things that can destroy or deplete it, like heat, minerals, UV and Vitamin C.

The enzyme in honey that generates hydrogen peroxide, is particularly sensitive to heat and light. It can be completely destroyed by microwaving or high heat for a period of time but heat applied to a honey lightening recipe, depending on the amount and time, can damage it, so less to no peroxide is produced after the 1 hour, in the case you describe.

ktani
November 4th, 2008, 07:07 PM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that generates peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ktani
November 4th, 2008, 07:11 PM
How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
November 4th, 2008, 07:41 PM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.

20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

brok3nwings
November 5th, 2008, 09:08 AM
ktani ah i didnt know that peroxide could be so unstable, i thought that once formed it stayed there and thats it. So from what i understand both (enzimes and peroxide) are sensitive to heat and they are always related in the process. This part im not sure if i understood. Are they always connected to each other? If one is "killed" the other is killed too? one thing is the process of production and other thing is after it is already produced (peroxide) .
I will try to explain better... (lol) .. if the honey lightening is a process where the enzimes are always producing peroxide and there is a maximum, well, after the maximum there is only two things that are possible. Or some peroxide starts to disapear while the enzimes produce some more (to have always the same amout of peroxide) or the enzime stops producing and we work with the peroxide that has been produced with that quantity of enzimes. If this is the case probably we should use the mix right away after one hour to dont take the risk of killing the peroxide with enviromental factors. I know that this is really confusing and i am sorry cause sometimes i really dont read the articles you give us, ktani, cause it is really hard for me to understand it. I can understand better simple explanations, with simple english, as you and most of the people here, do :)

Jorchet
November 5th, 2008, 09:09 AM
I can see a slight colour change. You hair looks more brown/red in tone.

Ok , let's break this down.

You can cover your hair, once it is thoroughly, evenly wet, preferably with a swim cap, or mist it instead. Only with misting, do you need to re wet the hair constantly.

I am not sure about the pH of deionozed water. If you can, try to get distilled water.

Double check your dilution measurements. That can make a huge difference.

You might also try combining the honeys you have, an idea I had not thought of, until brok3nwings mentioned it, by way of a question. That will save you buying a new honey for now.

Hi, Ktani! I'm sorry it took me so long to reply! I haven't been on the forum long enough to read new posts and be able to reply. Thank you for psming me about your post!

I seem to get nervous about so much information and fearing I might not understand what I'm supposed to do, so I might be missing something out, I think it's the measuring that it's not working. I don't have the right "tools" to do it right, I'm afraid, and I'm bad bad baaaaad at the whole conversion stuff. http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/blushing.gif

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/erm-1.png When you say that if I wet my hair - as opposed to mist it - that I don't have to re-wet unless it's getting dry, do you mean: apply mix on wet hair+wrap in plastic+dont touch till past the hour, kinda thing?

Bear with me, please http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/pray-1.gif I know I'm repeating stuff over and over again, but I just get anxious and nervous and I want to make sure I'll do it right this time - yeah, I have some issues lol :o

This is what I do:


Make the mix in a jug; usually make almost too much of it just to be on the safe side.
Dip my still wet/towel dry hair into the jug to wet the length.
Put some mix on a bottle and wet my scalp, roots and top of my head.
Wrap in plastic bag, adding the shower cap on top to keep bag from slipping.


I usually leave the mix for 2 hours, so I re wet, following the same steps every 30 mins. Should I do the whole re-wetting or is not necessary?

Thanks Ktani for your help and patience! This is a great thread, full of good tips and info and you keep it flowing really nicely. We really appreciate your hard work! :flowers:

ktani
November 5th, 2008, 09:52 AM
ktani ah i didnt know that peroxide could be so unstable, i thought that once formed it stayed there and thats it. So from what i understand both (enzimes and peroxide) are sensitive to heat and they are always related in the process. This part im not sure if i understood. Are they always connected to each other? If one is "killed" the other is killed too? one thing is the process of production and other thing is after it is already produced (peroxide) .
I will try to explain better... (lol) .. if the honey lightening is a process where the enzimes are always producing peroxide and there is a maximum, well, after the maximum there is only two things that are possible. Or some peroxide starts to disapear while the enzimes produce some more (to have always the same amout of peroxide) or the enzime stops producing and we work with the peroxide that has been produced with that quantity of enzimes. If this is the case probably we should use the mix right away after one hour to dont take the risk of killing the peroxide with enviromental factors. I know that this is really confusing and i am sorry cause sometimes i really dont read the articles you give us, ktani, cause it is really hard for me to understand it. I can understand better simple explanations, with simple english, as you and most of the people here, do :)

I am not sure how it works with the honey lightening boosters but with honey, a particular enzyme generates the production of hydrogen peroxide. If you destroy the enzyme, no peroxide.
One hour is not necessarily the maximum for peroxide to be produced, so it is better to be careful with a recipe at all times. The peroxide once produced, does not appear to be too fragile or breakdown too fast, as long as the other factors mentioned are not present or used. People have left a recipe in the fridge overnight or on the hair for several hours and it has been fine. It is best to use a recipe at room temperature.

ktani
November 5th, 2008, 10:09 AM
Hi, Ktani! I'm sorry it took me so long to reply! I haven't been on the forum long enough to read new posts and be able to reply. Thank you for psming me about your post!

I seem to get nervous about so much information and fearing I might not understand what I'm supposed to do, so I might be missing something out, I think it's the measuring that it's not working. I don't have the right "tools" to do it right, I'm afraid, and I'm bad bad baaaaad at the whole conversion stuff. http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/blushing.gif

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/erm-1.png When you say that if I wet my hair - as opposed to mist it - that I don't have to re-wet unless it's getting dry, do you mean: apply mix on wet hair+wrap in plastic+dont touch till past the hour, kinda thing?

Bear with me, please http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/pray-1.gif I know I'm repeating stuff over and over again, but I just get anxious and nervous and I want to make sure I'll do it right this time - yeah, I have some issues lol :o

This is what I do:


Make the mix in a jug; usually make almost too much of it just to be on the safe side.
Dip my still wet/towel dry hair into the jug to wet the length.
Put some mix on a bottle and wet my scalp, roots and top of my head.
Wrap in plastic bag, adding the shower cap on top to keep bag from slipping.
I usually leave the mix for 2 hours, so I re wet, following the same steps every 30 mins. Should I do the whole re-wetting or is not necessary?

Thanks Ktani for your help and patience! This is a great thread, full of good tips and info and you keep it flowing really nicely. We really appreciate your hard work! :flowers:

Thank you for your kind words. Do not worry about the delay. I pmed you in case you did not see my reply.

Do not worry about repitition. I answer all questions and some of the material can be confusing at first. And please do not be nervous about the information. I try to simplify it but because I understand it, I may not be explaining it clearly enough for you. Just ask and I will go through anything that you do not understand.

You should be able, with your post count to be able to do most things by now. Perhaps you should check out the site help threads or pm a mod. I think that you may be confused about what you can do.

I have tried to simplify the conversions. If you use tablespoons, it may be easier.
2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water. 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablesoons distilled water etc.

Your method sounds ok but your legth is getting more wet than the other parts at first. That is not a problem as long as by the time you are finished applying a treatment, all of your hair is evenly wet.

If your hair stays wet under the plastic, you do not need to rewet it. My hair can dry in parts quickly in 30 minutes when it is just washed, so do not time it in intervals for rewetting, check on it every so often. You should be able to tell if the hair is still wet, without disturbing it too much. If the hair has started to dry, then rewet it.

I use a freezer bag, stretched out at the opening. It fits my head snugly, when I do catnip treatments. Yes, I do get some drips but I am in the bath for that. When I used to do treatments outside the shower with a towel around my neck, the bag being clear, showed condensation, and I could see that my hair was wet. I still think for honey lightening, that a swim cap is best, to cover a treatment.

Jorchet
November 5th, 2008, 07:50 PM
It's me again! :o I don't have scales, so I can't measure grams, but I can measure millilitres on a jug or a measuring spoon, anyone knows how many ml of honey to ml of water?

Thanks!



Edit: I'm not using tablespoons for measuring because I don't know if the spoons I have are tablespoons. Besides, whatever spoon I have, it's and UK spoon, I guess because that's where I am at the moment.
God, I'm so thick at this stuff! http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/buddystupid.gif

ktani
November 5th, 2008, 08:20 PM
It's me again! :o I don't have scales, so I can't measure grams, but I can measure millilitres on a jug or a measuring spoon, anyone knows how many ml of honey to ml of water?

Thanks!

2 tablespoons of honey or 1/8 cup = 1.5 oz and requires 6 oz of distilled water. It is about 40 ml. There is some dispute on how many ml = 1 oz.

6 oz of water = 180 ml. I would use that.

ktani
November 5th, 2008, 08:33 PM
Jorchet

It is not that you are "thick at this." One is a weight measurement (the honey) and ml is a volume measurement.

It still confuses me at times, lol.

The weight to weight to easier for me. Honey is heavier than water.

10 grams of honey requires 40 grams of water. 40 grams of water = 40 ml. 1 gram of water = 1 ml.

2 tablespoons of honey = about 40 ml = 42.5 grams x 4 = 170. It does not have to be exact to the ml. Close is good enough.

So, 170 to 180 ml of distilled water should be right for you, if you use 40 ml of honey.

If you need 1/4 cup of honey or about 80 ml, you will need about 340 ml of distilled water.

ktani
November 6th, 2008, 06:47 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
November 6th, 2008, 10:26 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
November 6th, 2008, 10:27 AM
Not all tap water is equal. Both the mineral content and the pH can vary.

Where I live, for example the water can go rusty. It runs clear most of the time but can dry with a rust colour on occasion and is safe to drink. The rust in my case comes from the pipes in my apartment building.

The rust can be from the water itself or the pipes it goes through, so even though the water itself may be fine, pipes can add iron to it.

I do not live where the information in this link is given, but it is generally applicable IMO, and does apply to the tap water where I do live.
"Iron and manganese .... minerals found in drinking water supplies .... minerals will not harm you .... they may cause reddish-brown or black stains on clothes or household fixtures .... Iron and manganese may be present in the water supply or .... caused by corroding pipes (iron or steel)."
http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/programs/extension/publicat/wqwm/he394.html

“What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
.... primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition …. increasing temperature …. increasing contamination …. metals …. copper, manganese or iron …. "
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2

"iron atom becomes an Fe+3 ion and oxygen becomes an 0-2 ion .... quickly joins with an H+ ion to form water. These two elements combine to form iron oxide, or rust."
http://www.haverford.edu/educ/knight-booklet/mustitrust.htm

Distilled water is used in the method developed by the Food Control Laboratory in Amsterdam, for testing honey for its peroxide value. The pH of distilled water is 7. Distilled water is what I recommend for honey lightening, because of its lack of minerals and its pH.

".... Food-Control Department laboratory in Amsterdam .... determine the content of glucose-oxidase in honey
Technical performance:
Distilled water is used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

ktani
November 6th, 2008, 10:21 PM
Methods of application and covering a honey lightening treatment

The hair needs to be very wet, both before being covered, and while a treatment is on the hair for the recommended 1 hour.

A treatment can be applied with; a pastry, basting, tint, or blush brush, spray, or applicator bottle. The brushes allow more control, the bottles faster application. When spices are used, a bottle needs a wider opening.

I have recommended that extra treatment be withheld, until the end of application (especially when doing roots only), to make sure that any hair that has dried during the process, gets rewet, beore covering.

Covering a treatment can be with a secure plastic bag (I use freezer bags and stretch the opening, for my catnip treatments), a secured shower cap (this has been reported to be problematic), plastic wrap, (combinations can also be done) or a swim cap, which IMO, is the best choice.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

A towel or any absorbant material, is not recommended for covering the hair, because it will absorb the needed moisture from a treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

Misting can also be done with the hair uncovered but the hair needs constant misting IMO, to stay very wet.

The hair once covered, should not need rewetting, but if the hair starts to dry because the plastic has slipped, or a shower cap is not secured, it will need to be done. Ideally, with the right covering secured, rewetting will not be necessary.

While 1 hour is the recommended time that a treatment needs to left on the hair, it can be left on the hair longer than that with no worries.

If a treatment is left to sit for 1 hour at room temperature, to produce peroxide, 1 hour should be more than enough time on the hair per treatment. It has also been reported, that using a treatment without letting it sit out in advance of application, and only leaving it on the hair for 1 hour, is sufficient to get the results wanted.

brok3nwings
November 7th, 2008, 07:21 AM
ktani thank you for the information, i also didnt know we could put it in the freeze!

ktani
November 7th, 2008, 07:28 AM
ktani thank you for the information, i also didnt know we could put it in the freeze!

You are most welcome. I do not recommend storing a treatment for too long in the fridge. It should only be mixed and used at room temperature but if you make a treatment and are too tired to use it, it can be refridgerated and stored overnight.

magpielaura
November 7th, 2008, 07:56 AM
It's me again! :o I don't have scales, so I can't measure grams, but I can measure millilitres on a jug or a measuring spoon, anyone knows how many ml of honey to ml of water?

Thanks!



Edit: I'm not using tablespoons for measuring because I don't know if the spoons I have are tablespoons. Besides, whatever spoon I have, it's and UK spoon, I guess because that's where I am at the moment.
God, I'm so thick at this stuff! http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Jorchet/Smilies/buddystupid.gif


I was using the wrong dilution for ages until Ktani corrected me! I thought more honey = better effect. :doh:

Don't worry - UK tablespoons are the same as everywhere! In the end how big the spoon is is irrelevant. Six spoons of water to One of honey (level the spoon of honey - its thicker than the water so you can load too much on. Scrape off to level or let some run off) Multiply the recipe to make enough to soak your hair, or find a REALLY BIG spoon. Just use the same spoon to measure both honey and water. My weighing scales and measuring jugs are no good for acurately measureing such small quantities so spoons work well for me!

ktani
November 7th, 2008, 08:09 AM
I was using the wrong dilution for ages until Ktani corrected me! I thought more honey = better effect. :doh:

Don't worry - UK tablespoons are the same as everywhere! In the end how big the spoon is is irrelevant. Six spoons of water to One of honey (level the spoon of honey - its thicker than the water so you can load too much on. Scrape off to level or let some run off) Multiply the recipe to make enough to soak your hair, or find a REALLY BIG spoon. Just use the same spoon to measure both honey and water. My weighing scales and measuring jugs are no good for acurately measureing such small quantities so spoons work well for me!

It has been a while. How did the corrected dilution work out for you.

Did you use distilled water in your recipe or deionized and did you get the lightening that you wanted?

And how is the condition of your hair?

magpielaura
November 7th, 2008, 08:51 AM
It has been a while. How did the corrected dilution work out for you.

Did you use distilled water in your recipe or deionized and did you get the lightening that you wanted?

And how is the condition of your hair?

Hello! I'm waiting for more definate colour change to be really sure something happpened. I've taken pictures but have not got around to asking DH to show me how to get them from camera to screen....

I asked for distilled water in the pharmacy but the bottle reads "purified". I asume it is the same thing and I haven't been able to find anything different yet. I'm using Sainsburys Value honey (on the list you have)

I think that the older, blonder, more sundamaged parts of my hair got a bit lighter (more porous?). Its hard to say about the roots as the change (if any) if subtle and could be my imagination. The last 2 treatments I did were neck upwards only with an SMT on the length to avoid overlightening. I separate the 2 treatments with plastic and stick a swimhat over the lot. I've tried cinamon as a booster but I think I'll not try that too often as it disaggrees with my neck (It goes bright red!)

I bought ground cardamom to try (and will skin test first this time!) this weekend but have got carried away with a soapnut experiment instead. I've had to stop myself from trying too many things at once or I'll never know which treatment did what for my hair!

ktani
November 7th, 2008, 09:32 AM
Hello! I'm waiting for more definate colour change to be really sure something happpened. I've taken pictures but have not got around to asking DH to show me how to get them from camera to screen....

I asked for distilled water in the pharmacy but the bottle reads "purified". I asume it is the same thing and I haven't been able to find anything different yet. I'm using Sainsburys Value honey (on the list you have)

I think that the older, blonder, more sundamaged parts of my hair got a bit lighter (more porous?). Its hard to say about the roots as the change (if any) if subtle and could be my imagination. The last 2 treatments I did were neck upwards only with an SMT on the length to avoid overlightening. I separate the 2 treatments with plastic and stick a swimhat over the lot. I've tried cinamon as a booster but I think I'll not try that too often as it disaggrees with my neck (It goes bright red!)

I bought ground cardamom to try (and will skin test first this time!) this weekend but have got carried away with a soapnut experiment instead. I've had to stop myself from trying too many things at once or I'll never know which treatment did what for my hair!

I agree about not trying too many things at one time. I have no idea how you can separate them all either.

Sorry to hear about the cinnamon and your neck. It is always better to patch test, IMO.

magpielaura
November 7th, 2008, 10:12 AM
I agree about not trying too many things at one time. I have no idea how you can separate them all either.

Sorry to hear about the cinnamon and your neck. It is always better to patch test, IMO.

There were red streaks where the cinanmon ran down! Not itchy/sore though and it faded quickly. I'm a bit complacent about the patch testing as nothing much has previously bothered my skin. I'm trying to be a bit more careful....

I know SMT and honey lightening at the same time counts as overdoing it a bit but I had done both treatments on their own and liked both. Since I want to do honey on the top half only I might as well bung something nice on the end if I'm going to hang about with a drippy head anyway! My technique when doing this is:
On dry hair, once I've done the honey bit, I slap SMT on the length and braid. Then I wrap the braid in cling film to stop any of the peroxide depleting ingredients from getting on the roots. A final wetting of the top with the remainder of the honey mix and its on with the rubber hat! (wrapped braid included)

It did cross my mind (only briefly!)to wash with soapnut, let it dry and do a honey cardamom/SMT treatment. Followed by a vingar rinse. Oh - and I had pre oiled with coconut.

Mmmm...definately tooooooo much.

ktani
November 7th, 2008, 10:41 AM
There were red streaks where the cinanmon ran down! Not itchy/sore though and it faded quickly. I'm a bit complacent about the patch testing as nothing much has previously bothered my skin. I'm trying to be a bit more careful....

I know SMT and honey lightening at the same time counts as overdoing it a bit but I had done both treatments on their own and liked both. Since I want to do honey on the top half only I might as well bung something nice on the end if I'm going to hang about with a drippy head anyway! My technique when doing this is:
On dry hair, once I've done the honey bit, I slap SMT on the length and braid. Then I wrap the braid in cling film to stop any of the peroxide depleting ingredients from getting on the roots. A final wetting of the top with the remainder of the honey mix and its on with the rubber hat! (wrapped braid included)

It did cross my mind (only briefly!)to wash with soapnut, let it dry and do a honey cardamom/SMT treatment. Followed by a vingar rinse. Oh - and I had pre oiled with coconut.

Mmmm...definately tooooooo much.

I was following you quite well until you got to the honey/cardamom SMT part. That is a counter productive recipe IMO, if you plan on doing a mix of those ingredients.

I think that it is better to do each recipe separately but if what you are doing makes you happy and the key is, does your method work? If it does, continue. If not, you may want to consider slowing it down and doing each recipe on its own.

magpielaura
November 7th, 2008, 12:35 PM
I was following you quite well until you got to the honey/cardamom SMT part. That is a counter productive recipe IMO, if you plan on doing a mix of those ingredients.

I think that it is better to do each recipe separately but if what you are doing makes you happy and the key is, does your method work? If it does, continue. If not, you may want to consider slowing it down and doing each recipe on its own.

They are separate - honey + cardamom on the roots and down to about ear lobes. SMT on the ends. I don't want to lighten the ends anymore really, so if the honey mix trickles down the ends are saturated with a non-lightening, conditioning mix. I haven't actually tried it with the cardamom yet. As to whether it works.... The roots are a dull light brown. the length is sunlightened blond. I'm tryng to even it out but I'll need to do a few more treatments to know if its really lightening or if its wishful thinking.

I didn't think that trying both Cardamom and soapnut for the very first time on the same day would be a good idea!

ktani
November 7th, 2008, 01:04 PM
They are separate - honey + cardamom on the roots and down to about ear lobes. SMT on the ends. I don't want to lighten the ends anymore really, so if the honey mix trickles down the ends are saturated with a non-lightening, conditioning mix. I haven't actually tried it with the cardamom yet. As to whether it works.... The roots are a dull light brown. the length is sunlightened blond. I'm tryng to even it out but I'll need to do a few more treatments to know if its really lightening or if its wishful thinking.

I didn't think that trying both Cardamom and soapnut for the very first time on the same day would be a good idea!

I understand now. Thank you for clarifying that. Is sounds as if you have everything under control and that you are making progress.

Good luck and please continue to update, as you go.

ktani
November 8th, 2008, 09:59 AM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

gallows_gallery
November 8th, 2008, 11:31 PM
I did my 6th honey lightening yesterday using raw jarrah honey, cinnamon and filtered water in the recommended quantities.

Hair was in lovely condition after 2 good shampoos and a condition - no super-obvious colour change...although I'm starting to see a lot more red/brown in the lengths in daytime light. I'll take a photo for comparison.

gallows_gallery
November 9th, 2008, 12:20 AM
Okay here are some photos:

I'm having trouble deciding whether it's lightened at all because the colour varies so dramatically depending on the light/angle etc. of the photo.

Left: AFTER jarrah honey (so, 6 applications)
Right: BEFORE jarrah honey (so, 5 beechworth honey applications).
Hair is from the same day - the crappy quality photo has made them look the same - the left was substantially lighter
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8351.jpg


After 5 honey treatments (not jarrah yet), inside light, with flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8219.jpg


The exact same ponytail in direct sunlight, no flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8224.jpg

My (unbrushed) ends today, in the sun, no flash (after jarrah)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8362.jpg

Same hair again, ends clipped up, inside light with no flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8363.jpg

Sometimes I get really nice brown looking photos with no flash in the sun, but as soon as the flash is on it looks pitch black :(
I'm going to continue jarrah on the lengths and see how I go.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 06:40 AM
Okay here are some photos:

I'm having trouble deciding whether it's lightened at all because the colour varies so dramatically depending on the light/angle etc. of the photo.

Left: AFTER jarrah honey (so, 6 applications)
Right: BEFORE jarrah honey (so, 5 beechworth honey applications).
Hair is from the same day - the crappy quality photo has made them look the same - the left was substantially lighter
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8351.jpg


After 5 honey treatments (not jarrah yet), inside light, with flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8219.jpg


The exact same ponytail in direct sunlight, no flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8224.jpg

My (unbrushed) ends today, in the sun, no flash (after jarrah)
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8362.jpg

Same hair again, ends clipped up, inside light with no flash
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p227/mollusclove/CIMG8363.jpg

Sometimes I get really nice brown looking photos with no flash in the sun, but as soon as the flash is on it looks pitch black :(
I'm going to continue jarrah on the lengths and see how I go.

Thank you for the update on the condition of your hair and the great pictures.

Sunlight and no flash are better indicators of hair colour IMO. Flash can make colour look totally different than daylight, being the light that you actually see colour in, in real life.

I think that you are definitely making progress. I would still like if at all possible, to see what kind of difference distilled water would make on your hair colour with a honey lightening treatment. I went back over the table you posted on your water, and although it does not appear to be too bad, I still think that distilled water is a the best choice for honey lightening.

How prohibitive is the cost of distilled water where you are?

gallows_gallery
November 9th, 2008, 06:58 AM
It wouldn't be too expensive, I was just put off by the idea of having to pay for water :P

I'm going to dye my hair again after exams (they finish on the 25th) so I've got until then to lighten it as much as possible. I've stolen my boyfriend's big tub of raw jarrah honey, and will keep going with the cinnamon and possibly distilled water until then.

I'm keeping photo documentation so I'll keep you updated!

Does the length of time you leave the treatment on for affect it? Say 2hrs v 6hrs? If so, all these long days at home studying could be quite handy...I can sit around for hours with a bag on my head!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 07:03 AM
It wouldn't be too expensive, I was just put off by the idea of having to pay for water :P

I'm going to dye my hair again after exams (they finish on the 25th) so I've got until then to lighten it as much as possible. I've stolen my boyfriend's big tub of raw jarrah honey, and will keep going with the cinnamon and possibly distilled water until then.

I'm keeping photo documentation so I'll keep you updated!

Does the length of time you leave the treatment on for affect it? Say 2hrs v 6hrs? If so, all these long days at home studying could be quite handy...I can sit around for hours with a bag on my head!

You can leave a honey lightening treatment on your hair as long as you like with no worries but 1 hour is the recommended time per treatment.

Some people like to leave a treatment on the hair for a couple of hours and there is research that indicates that a honey still produces peroxide and can reach its maximum peroxide level after several hours. The time varies with the honey. I do not know what the maximum time is for Jarrah honey. It was not tested in the research.

I think that you should give distilled water a try, since you have a time limit goal for your lightening.

You can also play with the spices. Mix or alternate ground cinnamom with ground cardamom and increase the amount to 2 tablespoons (in total) per treatment. If you increase the spice amount, increase the recipe size to 1/4 cup honey and 12 ounces of distilled water (1 cup Metric) and perhaps a touch more than that, to keep the pH of the solution at the optimal for peroxide production (both spices are acidic).

gallows_gallery
November 9th, 2008, 09:53 AM
Thanks ktani,

I think I will get some distilled water, and increase/experiment with spices.

I'll keep you posted.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 09:55 AM
Thanks ktani,

I think I will get some distilled water, and increase/experiment with spices.

I'll keep you posted.

You are most welcome and good luck!

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 01:44 PM
Hello all! I've been reading this thread for the last few days and I've decided I"m going to try to lighten my hair with the tomato paste and honey mix.

I've been using henna for the last year or so and I love it. A couple of months ago I experimented with a dark brown henna and I liked it but it was too dark for me I think.

Naturally my hair is a medium brown chestnutty auburn color. I've always been classified as a redhead but I've always considered myself a brunette.

I took 2 pictures of my hair a few minutes ago so I have before pictures. One is taken outside in natural light after being combed and the other is in my bathroom with no combing.

My ends are considerably damaged because I foolishly go to work in a craft store with my hair down. I've had tape and stickers get lost in the ends only to find them hours later. I've gotten my hair snagged in floral branches and on shelving units. I won't be doing that anymore. I didn't realize how damaged my ends had become until I saw these pictures. When I"m completely done lightening and adding new henna I plan to cut off about 3 inches. I'll feel bald!

I'm really nervous about doing this honey tomato sauce treatment. I"m hoping to re-henna my hair with a combo of marigold blonde and natural red to get a shade somewhere in between a strawberry blonde and flame red. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Well I'm off to tomato my head. I'll post pics of what it looks like afterwards. I plan on wearing this in my hair for about 4 hours.

Here's my before pics.

This one is the before combing pic

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/hair1a.jpg


Here's the one I took outside after I combed my hair

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/hair2.jpg

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 01:57 PM
Hello all! I've been reading this thread for the last few days and I've decided I"m going to try to lighten my hair with the tomato paste and honey mix.

I've been using henna for the last year or so and I love it. A couple of months ago I experimented with a dark brown henna and I liked it but it was too dark for me I think.

Naturally my hair is a medium brown chestnutty auburn color. I've always been classified as a redhead but I've always considered myself a brunette.

I took 2 pictures of my hair a few minutes ago so I have before pictures. One is taken outside in natural light after being combed and the other is in my bathroom with no combing.

My ends are considerably damaged because I foolishly go to work in a craft store with my hair down. I've had tape and stickers get lost in the ends only to find them hours later. I've gotten my hair snagged in floral branches and on shelving units. I won't be doing that anymore. I didn't realize how damaged my ends had become until I saw these pictures. When I"m completely done lightening and adding new henna I plan to cut off about 3 inches. I'll feel bald!

I'm really nervous about doing this honey tomato sauce treatment. I"m hoping to re-henna my hair with a combo of marigold blonde and natural red to get a shade somewhere in between a strawberry blonde and flame red. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Well I'm off to tomato my head. I'll post pics of what it looks like afterwards. I plan on wearing this in my hair for about 4 hours.

Here's my before pics.

This one is the before combing pic

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/hair1a.jpg


Here's the one I took outside after I combed my hair

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/hair2.jpg

I'm afraid that you have missed the point of the first post of this thread and the current honey lightening recommendations.

Tomato products have not been recommended for honey lightening because of their Vitamin C content for quite some time and based on the most current research, the pH of your recipe will not be condusive to the maximum production of hydrogen peroxide (it will be too acidic). That also explains why tomato/honey recipes resulted in gradual lightening at best and if a double or triple strength tomato paste was used, a redox reaction, which caused redarkening beause of the extra high Vitamin C content.

Your hair may lighten but the new dilution and recipes have been reported to be much better than the previous dilutions and recipes.

Good luck!

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 02:13 PM
oh grief. I came back here to check the recipe and saw your reply. I'm glad I came back. So what is the new recommendations? This thread has gotten so long I've lost track of all the recipes. My brain hurts after reading this thread :thud:

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 02:16 PM
oh ok I see it in your signature. thanks

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 02:17 PM
oh ok I see it in your signature. thanks

I broke everything down here, just for people new to the thread and others.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 02:29 PM
thank you. I did read most of that page. I read like the first 30 pages of this thread and clicked on the links and then skipped some of this thread's posts after that so I guess I got myself turned around. LOL It probably would have been more clear if I had jumped in on the end of the thread rather than from the beginning. It really is too long to try to start way back from the first post. Mind boggling too at the level of skill demonstrated throughout the many experiences and experimentations that took place in this thread. You all have done awesome work and I greatly appreciate it.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 02:33 PM
thank you. I did read most of that page. I read like the first 30 pages of this thread and clicked on the links and then skipped some of this thread's posts after that so I guess I got myself turned around. LOL It probably would have been more clear if I had jumped in on the end of the thread rather than from the beginning. It really is too long to try to start way back from the first post. Mind boggling too at the level of skill demonstrated throughout the many experiences and experimentations that took place in this thread. You all have done awesome work and I greatly appreciate it.

Thank you.

I start the first post off with Novermber 2008 update, so that what happened to you can be avoided.

It does not appear to be working, lol. You are not the first to read the bulk of the thread anyway.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 02:43 PM
Please don't misunderstand, there is nothing wrong with reading the entire thread. It is a progression to the current recipes and recommendations.

I change the first post update month to month. I actually changed October 2008 to November just today.

But for those in a hurry, and are new to the thread, the first post was written to assist and make all of that extra reading and time spent, unnecessary.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 02:44 PM
ok so I'm mixing it together and I've got 1/2 cup honey, 3 cups distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cinammon. do I also add 1 tablespoon evoo? can I add more than 1 tablespoon? what will happen if I DO add more? Jeez I'm nervous!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 02:51 PM
ok so I'm mixing it together and I've got 1/2 cup honey, 3 cups distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cinammon. do I also add 1 tablespoon evoo? can I add more than 1 tablespoon? what will happen if I DO add more? Jeez I'm nervous!

First, please don't be nervous. I am right here and I will stay with you through this. You have mixed quite a lot together in terms of recipe size but there is no harm in that.

With that amount, you can add extra cinnamon by 1 tablespoon but I hope that you patch tested the cinnamon.
Yes, you can still add the evoo. The oil amount maximum suggested, is based on the fact that 1 tablespoon is enough for most people and that amount can be difficult to wash out of the hair for some people. It is fine though. Some people prefer 1/2 tablespoon for the reason stated.

I also do not know where you are. 1/4 cup honey to 1.5 cups distilled water is a US measurement for the water. In Metric, 12 oz is 1 cup.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 02:52 PM
Please don't misunderstand, there is nothing wrong with reading the entire thread. It is a progression to the current recipes and recommendations.

I change the first post update month to month. I actually changed October 2008 to November just today.

But for those in a hurry, and are new to the thread, the first post was written to assist and make all of that extra reading and time spent, unnecessary.


oh no I gotcha. I read from the beginning because I wanted to know what I was getting myself into. I've never been one of those that just goes with the flow and tries anything on my hair. I don't have enough nerve to do that. lol

If I had been in a hurry I would have just started from the end of the thread but then I would have missed out on all the fascinating experiments.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 02:55 PM
I really appreciate you helping me. the reason I made so much was because I have long hair and I wasn't sure such a small amount would cover all my hair. I didn't patch test the cinammon. Is there a likelyhood I could have a reaction to it?

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 02:57 PM
one other thing. If I add another tablespoon of cinammon will it get rid of all the red in my hair? I am aiming for a lighter red so I don't want to get rid of it entirely.

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 03:00 PM
I read the first 30 or so pages but then started losing the will to live...All good stuff but there was no hope of getting through it! I skimmed through reading bits at random in the end, then read the last few pages. Every now and then I catch up on the latest to find out who else is hanging about with a swim cap filled with honey on their barnet. I like to see that I'm not the only loony with a sticky neck;)

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 03:04 PM
I read the first 30 or so pages but then started losing the will to live...All good stuff but there was no hope of getting through it! I skimmed through reading bits at random in the end, then read the last few pages. Every now and then I catch up on the latest to find out who else is hanging about with a swim cap filled with honey on their barnet. I like to see that I'm not the only loony with a sticky neck;)


LOL my husband had been teasing me all morning. henna is called goose poop in my house and today my hubby asked me if I"m gonna poop on my head today!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 03:05 PM
I read the first 30 or so pages but then started losing the will to live...All good stuff but there was no hope of getting through it! I skimmed through reading bits at random in the end, then read the last few pages. Every now and then I catch up on the latest to find out who else is hanging about with a swim cap filled with honey on their barnet. I like to see that I'm not the only loony with a sticky neck;)

Well I am glad to see that even though you lost the will to live after 30 pages, that you have not lost your sense of humour, lol.

Thank you, today I needed a good laugh.

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 03:07 PM
At least honey treatments taste and smell nice!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 03:08 PM
At least honey treatments taste and smell nice!

Very true, the new ones are completely edible! LOL

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 03:20 PM
krspies

In all of the excitement, I missed 2 of your posts.

1. Nothing yet discovered/tried on these boards, has been reported to lighten/remove every trace of henna, so the cinnamon or anything else is not going to remove all henna red from your hair after your using henna for 1 year. If it had been 1 treatment in a mix, maybe but not now.

2. Your recipe amount, looking at your hair, should be enough for 2 or possibly more treatments. One step at a time.

3. Some people have had no problems with smaller amounts of cinnamon in a recipe, but did have problems with too much used in too much of a concentration, even with patch testing. With your recipe, a reaction is less likely but it could happen. If it does, rinse the treatment out right away. Honey lightening is not supposed to = torture.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 03:27 PM
You can also refridgerate any left over treatment until tomorrow if you like, and want to do 2 treatments, back to back.


that's a great idea!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 03:30 PM
that's a great idea!

Yes that was meant for you. I just deleted that statement in my reply because I put it in the wrong post, lol. We are having entirely too much fun. lol

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 03:35 PM
thank you. my daughter just mixed up a batch for herself. she's a natural blonde that has gone kinda ashy looking.

Well I"m gonna go watch the beginning of my movie - leatherheads while I wait on my honey. thank you again so much! you've been a wonderful help and put me at ease with this whole thing.

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 03:38 PM
I really appreciate you helping me. the reason I made so much was because I have long hair and I wasn't sure such a small amount would cover all my hair. I didn't patch test the cinammon. Is there a likelyhood I could have a reaction to it?

I've had a mild reaction to cinnamon, but it recovered quickly. It dosen't bother my scalp or hands at all, but turns my skin elsewhere red. Not ichy or sore, and it calmed down within 20 minutes. I would dab a bit of your mix behind your ear - you will definatly get some there during treatment. I think you would know quickly if you were going to have a bad reaction. I did end up keeping my cinnamon mix on for an hour with no problems as I kept a damp cloth to hand to wipe drips before the skin was irritated, and rinsed over the sink rather than get it the shower and have the stuff run all over me. Alternatively lick off drips....mmmmm

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 03:41 PM
thank you. my daughter just mixed up a batch for herself. she's a natural blonde that has gone kinda ashy looking.

Well I"m gonna go watch the beginning of my movie - leatherheads while I wait on my honey. thank you again so much! you've been a wonderful help and put me at ease with this whole thing.

You are most welcome. You could have given your daughter half of your recipe, lol.

Good luck to both of you. You can let the recipes sit at room temperature for one hour to produce peroxide or use them right away.

Just make sure that all of your hair and hers are completely, evenly wet with the treatments before and while covered.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 03:44 PM
I've had a mild reaction to cinnamon, but it recovered quickly. It dosen't bother my scalp or hands at all, but turns my skin elsewhere red. Not ichy or sore, and it calmed down within 20 minutes. I would dab a bit of your mix behind your ear - you will definatly get some there during treatment. I think you would know quickly if you were going to have a bad reaction. I did end up keeping my cinnamon mix on for an hour with no problems as I kept a damp cloth to hand to wipe drips before the skin was irritated, and rinsed over the sink rather than get it the shower and have the stuff run all over me. Alternatively lick off drips....mmmmm

You are an absolute riot, lol and very helpful. Thank you for contributing your experiences and making me laugh out loud.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Well I"m gonna go watch the beginning of my movie - leatherheads

leatherheads threw me. I am not familiar with the term. I was not bothered by it, given the tone of our correspondence, just curious.

I think this comes close to what you meant in terms of from where it derived?

"Any of various honeyeaters of the genus Philemon of Australia and adjacent regions, having a partly naked, featherless head. Also called leatherhead."
The American Heritage® Dictionary"
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=leatherhead+define&meta=

I do have a high forehead, lol. And I do eat honey.

So, are you Australian?

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 04:07 PM
You are an absolute riot, lol and very helpful. Thank you for contributing your experiences and making me laugh out loud.

Its hard to take oneself seriously when wearing a swimming cap in the house. I make sure the curtains are all drawn and dread the sound of the door bell. Oh, the glamour....

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 04:11 PM
leatherheads threw me. I am not familiar with the term. I was not bothered by it, given the tone of our correspondence, just curious.

I think this comes close to what you meant in terms of from where it derived?

"Any of various honeyeaters of the genus Philemon of Australia and adjacent regions, having a partly naked, featherless head. Also called leatherhead.

The American Heritage® Dictionary"
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=leatherhead+define&meta=

I do have a high forehead, lol. And I do eat honey.

So, are you Australian?

LOL no leatherheads is the name of a movie with renee zeilweger and george clooney. It's about the start of pro football in the 1920's. it's a comedy.

my honey is done so I"m off to put it in my hair. after I blowdry it out I'll post a pic.

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 04:11 PM
I think Leatherheads is the title of the film...I think George Clooney and Renee Z (can't spell it!) are in it , though I haven't seen it.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:13 PM
Its hard to take oneself seriously when wearing a swimming cap in the house. I make sure the curtains are all drawn and dread the sound of the door bell. Oh, the glamour....

Ahh yes, the things we do for our hair, lol.

I cannot remember the last time the Honey threads were this much fun.

You need to please, post more often.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 04:15 PM
here's the movie trailer

http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi632422681/

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:16 PM
I think Leatherheads is the title of the film...I think George Clooney and Renee Z (can't spell it!) are in it , though I haven't seen it.

Never heard of it. I like the dictionary definition though.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:19 PM
I cannot see the trailer but I found this.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379865/synopsis

No worries about the hijack. I started this one.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:21 PM
LOL no leatherheads is the name of a movie with renee zeilweger and george clooney. It's about the start of pro football in the 1920's. it's a comedy.

my honey is done so I"m off to put it in my hair. after I blowdry it out I'll post a pic.

Thank you.

Both of you guys post faster than I do, lol.

I look forward to your update.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:23 PM
I think Leatherheads is the title of the film...I think George Clooney and Renee Z (can't spell it!) are in it , though I haven't seen it.

Thank you too.

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 04:30 PM
Never heard of it. I like the dictionary definition though.

Spooky coincidence that it had something to do with honey!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:34 PM
Spooky coincidence that it had something to do with honey!

I thought so too. I did not see a football reference but I may have missed it. I also used the wrong link. The definition came from this one.
"leatherhead." The American Heritage&#174; Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. 09 Nov. 2008. <Dictionary.com"'
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/leatherhead

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 04:41 PM
lol Idon't know but I'm all honeyed up. and so is my daughter. as it turns out I did end up using all my mixture.it just did the job. so far no real reaction to the cinnamon. I have a couple of red spots but they are very little. I'm sporting a saran wrap beehive as we speak.

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 04:42 PM
Ahh yes, the things we do for our hair, lol.

I cannot remember the last time the Honey threads were this much fun.

You need to please, post more often.

I'm glad to amuse!:disco:

We should develop honey recipes with mildly intoxicating ingredients...a drop of Gin say. Then the honey thread would be a RIOT!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:48 PM
lol Idon't know but I'm all honeyed up. and so is my daughter. as it turns out I did end up using all my mixture.it just did the job. so far no real reaction to the cinnamon. I have a couple of red spots but they are very little. I'm sporting a saran wrap beehive as we speak.

Just keep an eye on those red spots. Aloe gel, unless you are allergic to it has been reported to help with those and they have not been reported to last.

I am glad that so far, your scalp is ok.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 04:49 PM
what will it do to my scalp?

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:51 PM
I'm glad to amuse!:disco:

We should develop honey recipes with mildly intoxicating ingredients...a drop of Gin say. Then the honey thread would be a RIOT!

Seriously, I do not recommend alcohol in a honey lightening recipe. Having a drink while wearing one?, not a bad idea, lol.

And I will not call you Seriously, in the future, lol (old, bad joke).

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 04:56 PM
what will it do to my scalp?

Worst case senerio? irritation, though it has not been reported to last or cause any lasting effects.

Cinnamon can be a powerful irritant. There have not been any serious allergic responses reported.

Cardamom can be an irritant too. One person had a sore scalp from it for one day, no lasting effects either.

I recommend patch testing as a precaution because although you can eat something in small doses with no problem, wearing it is another thing altogether.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:09 PM
Online, there is an article for lightening hair with conditioner and cinnamon, which has not been reported here on the boards, to lighten hair that much on its own, except over months with a lot of cinnamon used.

In that article, it is recommended to apply conditioner and then apply dry ground cinnamon afterward (to help the cinnamon stick).

A few people tried it here on the boards that way. The dry cinnamon spilled onto skin and it caused red, sore irritation.

For honey lightening, I tested mixing cinnamon and water. You get a smoother mix, when honey is added to the water first.

Most of the irritation reported has been from drips, which a towel around the neck can help prevent and the concentration of a mix.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:14 PM
oh ok. then I should be ok. it's not bothering me much and it's been in for 45 minutes now. what would happen if I leave it in for 2 hours? I thought I read on one of the pages linked to in this thread that after a certain time it stops releasing the lightening agent. is this true?

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 05:14 PM
what will it do to my scalp?

Judging by my experience, if you only have a few little red spots your scalp will be fine. Probably healthy and loving the attention! We need to see photos of that beehive. For purely research purposes - I wouldn't laugh.;)


I do not recommend alcohol in a honey lightening recipe.

I knew you would reply that!!! Its a shame...We could have a Global Online Simultaneous Honey Drunken Oratory Group (GOSHDOG). With loads of people! It would be like the pub, but stickier.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:16 PM
Online, there is an article for lightening hair with conditioner and cinnamon, which has not been reported here on the boards, to lighten hair that much on its own, except over months with a lot of cinnamon used.

In that article, it is recommended to apply conditioner and then apply dry ground cinnamon afterward (to help the cinnamon stick).

A few people tried it here on the boards that way. The dry cinnamon spilled onto skin and it caused red, sore irritation.

For honey lightening, I tested mixing cinnamon and water. You get a smoother mix, when honey is added to the water first.

Most of the irritation reported has been from drips, which a towel around the neck can help prevent and the concentration of a mix.

after I made my mix I noticed that it probably would have been smoother if I had done cinnamon first and then honey and then the water. I told my daughter to mix hers that way and it was smoother.

we are both wearing towels around our necks. the drips are not a steady stream lol but a towel is indeed necessary.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:17 PM
Judging by my experience, if you only have a few little red spots your scalp will be fine. Probably healthy and loving the attention! We need to see photos of that beehive. For purely research purposes - I wouldn't laugh.;)



I knew you would reply that!!! Its a shame...We could have a Global Online Simultaneous Honey Drunken Oratory Group (GOSHDOG). With loads of people! It would be like the pub, but stickier.

LOL :beercheer:

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:17 PM
I knew you would reply that!!! Its a shame...We could have a Global Online Simultaneous Honey Drunken Oratory Group (GOSHDOG). With loads of people! It would be like the pub, but stickier.

Trust me, although I knew exactly where you were coming from, someone would think it may be a legitimate option.

As a good laugh, it is a wonderful idea.

Besides, we have done quite well sober. I make no further comment on that, in terms of an assumption, lol.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:19 PM
Judging by my experience, if you only have a few little red spots your scalp will be fine. Probably healthy and loving the attention! We need to see photos of that beehive. For purely research purposes - I wouldn't laugh.;)
.


LOL lemme see what I can do

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:22 PM
after I made my mix I noticed that it probably would have been smoother if I had done cinnamon first and then honey and then the water. I told my daughter to mix hers that way and it was smoother.

we are both wearing towels around our necks. the drips are not a steady stream lol but a towel is indeed necessary.

If the towel gets too wet or there is irritation, just change it for another.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:28 PM
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgrz36hs_27hjp9wqd2

beehive! LOL

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:29 PM
oh ok. then I should be ok. it's not bothering me much and it's been in for 45 minutes now. what would happen if I leave it in for 2 hours? I thought I read on one of the pages linked to in this thread that after a certain time it stops releasing the lightening agent. is this true?

No, you can leave it on longer than 1 hour with no problem.

The link that I based the new recommendations on, says that the maximum peroxide level of a honey with this dilution is reached in 1 hour. However, there may be some room for interpretation on that.

In a research study, some honeys reached their maximum peroxide level after several hours with different dilutions. It varies with the honey. The study had buffered solutions that were then adjusted to a pH of 6, with chemicals in amounts, that I do not recommend for at home use.

1 hour per treatment has been reported to be sufficient for excellent reported results. You do have the option of a longer time on the hair without worry of damage. If the peroxide production stops, it stops, no harm is done. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair, no matter how long a treatment has been left on the hair, or how often it is done.

Some people like to leave a honey lightening treatment on the hair longer than 1 hour for extra conditioning.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:29 PM
it has been an hour. should I continue for another hour or rinse out, blow dry and consider a 2nd treatment?

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:30 PM
oops we must have posted at the same time. ok I"m going to go for another hour and then rinse it out.

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 05:30 PM
Besides, we have done quite well sober. I make no further comment on that, in terms of an assumption, lol.

You'll know if I've had a few bevvies...My spelling will go rapidly downhill and I'll make even less sense. It will take me ages to reply as I have to look for every key:D. The amaretto fairy moves them.

magpielaura
November 9th, 2008, 05:35 PM
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgrz36hs_27hjp9wqd2

beehive! LOL


YEY!!!!!

You look the picture of glamour and sophistication. That is too good to stay at home. Accessorise with diamonds and hit the town!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:36 PM
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgrz36hs_27hjp9wqd2

beehive! LOL

Good shot (picture) but you have a bit of hair extending out from the plastic by your ear. You can tuck it back in or mist it with a bit of honey water solution if there is any left but it will dry quickly otherwise and not lighten.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:38 PM
You'll know if I've had a few bevvies...My spelling will go rapidly downhill and I'll make even less sense. It will take me ages to reply as I have to look for every key:D. The amaretto fairy moves them.

I wish I had an excuse for my typos, lol. Alas it is just me. I am a typo queen, lol.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:40 PM
LOL I was going to do my hair earlier this morning and pick my daughter up from her slumber party in this condition and then thought better of it! lol momentary insanity.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:40 PM
YEY!!!!!

You look the picture of glamour and sophistication. That is too good to stay at home. Accessorise with diamonds and hit the town!

Brilliant idea for the fashion runways, lol.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:43 PM
It is time to rinse my daughter out. I can't wait to see the results!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:43 PM
LOL I was going to do my hair earlier this morning and pick my daughter up from her slumber party in this condition and then thought better of it! lol momentary insanity.

You would have made quite an impression, not to mention sparked a lot of conversation, lol.

A honey lightening slumber party, hmmmm. Possibilities.

Let's see, diamond accessories, fashion runways, slumber parties.

Honey lightening is going in new directions fast, lol.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 05:51 PM
It is time to rinse my daughter out. I can't wait to see the results!

If her hair is dry or stiff at the ends, when dry, that is just honey residue and a quick shampoo will help get rid of that. More than one shampoo may be necessry but not all at once.
If she shampoos the next couple of times she washes her hair, it should all be gone, if it happens. Not all honeys leave a discernable residue. It is not damage.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:58 PM
her hair feels incredibly healthy and soft and even though it is still wet we can see that it has lightened. I"m trying to talk her into blowdrying it but she isn't too keen on that idea. I'm going to blow dry mine since I"m going to have it trimmed.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 05:59 PM
we shampood her hair and then rinsed with vinegar and then conditioner. no honey residue that I can tell.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 06:01 PM
her hair feels incredibly healthy and soft and even though it is still wet we can see that it has lightened. I"m trying to talk her into blowdrying it but she isn't too keen on that idea. I'm going to blow dry mine since I"m going to have it trimmed.

Great news that the lightening on her hair is visible this early and the condition of her hair being good too.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 06:02 PM
we shampood her hair and then rinsed with vinegar and then conditioner. no honey residue that I can tell.

Great news!

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Great news that the lightening on her hair is visible this early and the condition of her hair being good too.


definitely. I'm excited to see how it turns out.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 06:10 PM
definitely. I'm excited to see how it turns out.

Did you see this post?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=337472&postcount=2701

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 06:14 PM
oh no I missed that one. thanks. LOL

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 06:17 PM
oh no I missed that one. thanks. LOL

You are most welcome.

I have missed a couple too and keep rereading to make sure I do not miss more. We all have been posting fast and furiously, lol.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 06:24 PM
I hear ya. I'm going to go rinse this out of my hair and blow dry. I'll be back to post a pic and let you know how it went.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 06:26 PM
I hear ya. I'm going to go rinse this out of my hair and blow dry. I'll be back to post a pic and let you know how it went.

I look forward to both.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 07:04 PM
well here it is. I washed and rinsed and blowdried. here's a pic. I can't tell if it is any lighter though.

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/lightened.jpg

I need a pic like the other ones to tell. do you think I should do another treatment?

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 07:11 PM
here's another pic. too bad its starting to get dark. it makes it harder to tell.

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/lightened2.jpg

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 07:21 PM
krspies

First, how does your hair feel?

The lighting is really not the best. Can you resize and post pics side by side in better lighting, comparing your before pics to the after?

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 07:27 PM
ok let me see if I can get better lighting. I'll use a camera instead of my cell phone. be back in a few minutes

It feels fine. it feels really clean and light and soft.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 07:32 PM
It feels fine. it feels really clean and light and soft.

That is always good news.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 08:44 PM
ok here are all 4 pictures. the top 2 are before I started and the bottom 2 are afterwards. I did the bottom 2 in the garage with shop lights on my hair. it's still too hard to tell.

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/banda.jpg

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 08:50 PM
ok here are all 4 pictures. the top 2 are before I started and the bottom 2 are afterwards. I did the bottom 2 in the garage with shop lights on my hair. it's still too hard to tell.

http://www.acspotlight.net/images/banda.jpg

Ok, the problem really is day and night literally. The lighting. I was going to post to say to wait on after pics until you could duplicate the before picture lighting.

On hennaed hair, it can take longer to lighten, depending on the amount of henna on the hair.

Can you see in the lighting you have, a difference in the colour?

Can anyone else see a difference?

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 08:56 PM
yea the lighting is bad. it would probably be best with outdoor lighting in the middle of the afternoon. I asked my family and they can't see a difference. I think my husband was trying to b nice. he said it is more red and then he said it is darker. lol that doesn't help!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 09:05 PM
yea the lighting is bad. it would probably be best with outdoor lighting in the middle of the afternoon. I asked my family and they can't see a difference. I think my husband was trying to b nice. he said it is more red and then he said it is darker. lol that doesn't help!

One treatment is probably not going to be enough for what you want. It could be your honey as well. While the boosters help compensate for that, the honey is where most of the peroxide comes from, if it is a good one for honey lightening.

I am still not sure where you are. Have you looked at this list?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

And how does your daughter's hair look now?

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 09:08 PM
I'm pretty sure even 2 treatments aren't going to do it. I'm using Natural Sue Bee Clover Honey. I did see the list and I checked to see if it was on the list when I started.

My daughter's hair is lighter but it seems to be mostly on the tips. I forgot to mention her's is virgin hair. it has never been dyed or permed or hennaed.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 09:15 PM
I'm pretty sure even 2 treatments aren't going to do it. I'm using Natural Sue Bee Clover Honey. I did see the list and I checked to see if it was on the list when I started.

My daughter's hair is lighter but it seems to be mostly on the tips. I forgot to mention her's is virgin hair. it has never been dyed or permed or hennaed.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Other than the recipe being oversize lol, it sounded perfect.

It may be that some of your hair dried a bit while the treatment was on your hair.

As for your daughter, you did not mention her recipe, but it sounds as if the recipe pooled and the ends got most of it. That is common.

See if you can find swim caps for both of you. They fit snugly.

And you can reduce the recipe size. It is about saturation and even distribution. Also, hair can start to dry during application, so keeping some back in a spray bottle, can be used to rewet the areas that have not gotten even distribution or have started to dry.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 09:15 PM
I forgot to say though that the condition of our hair is fantastic!

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 09:18 PM
when I unwrapped my saran wrap beehive my hair was still soaking wet. I did whisk and shake the mixture.

I used the same recipe on my daughter's hair.

maybe we just need to leave it in a lot longer?

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 09:21 PM
ok I"ll try your suggestions. tomorrow I'll see if I can find us some swim caps. I used one of those plastic bottles with a tip on it from sally's to apply but I'll try a spray bottle too.

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 09:26 PM
when I unwrapped my saran wrap beehive my hair was still soaking wet. I did whisk and shake the mixture.

I used the same recipe on my daughter's hair.

maybe we just need to leave it in a lot longer?

I am glad to hear about the great condition of the hair for both of you.

If you left it on for an hour, that should be sufficient.

Wisking and shaking the mixure is not really an issue. Mixing is fine. It is about thorough distribution in the hair.

The method is where people have been having a problem mostly lately. That is where the swim cap comes in.

The pooling should not really happen.

Misting is an option too, uncovered. But that needs to be done constantly and it is messier.

krspies
November 9th, 2008, 09:29 PM
ok I'll give it another go tomorrow. I'm off to eat dinner and lounge around for the rest of the night. Thank you so much for sticking by me through this process. you've been wonderful!

ktani
November 9th, 2008, 10:21 PM
ok I'll give it another go tomorrow. I'm off to eat dinner and lounge around for the rest of the night. Thank you so much for sticking by me through this process. you've been wonderful!

You are most welcome. I got shut out of the boards for about an hour, lol.

Take care. And Good luck.

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 07:56 AM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, recipes and methods used, even on baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of he hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 07:59 AM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 08:02 AM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Pictures of honey lightening on blonde hair

Note: The 4 to 1 dilution is the new dilution, before the water amount was corrected. The corrected version, has been reported to work much better.

firbird - 3 sets of pictures, 2 sets linked - on previously dyed hair and virgin regrowth before using the 4 to 1 dilution and after with ground cinnamon and EVOO
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=75235&postcount=393

on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - 4 to 1 dilution - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after 1 treatment - using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - the 4 to 1 dilution - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - recipe details and the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

gallows_gallery
November 10th, 2008, 12:09 PM
I just did my sixth honey lightening using the jarrah and cinnamon.

I shampooed twice and conditioned once. My hair feels like total crap (tacky, coarse) but I'm not stressing, because I didn't really have enough conditioner, and this has happened before and it went back to normal after my next wash.

I'm DEFINITELY making progress now - my hair is only half dry and it looks brown/red, and I'm in low light. Usually it looks pitch black!

I'm SOOOOO excited. I'm soaking a hairball in the mixture I made overnight to see if there is any change.

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 12:41 PM
I just did my sixth honey lightening using the jarrah and cinnamon.

I shampooed twice and conditioned once. My hair feels like total crap (tacky, coarse) but I'm not stressing, because I didn't really have enough conditioner, and this has happened before and it went back to normal after my next wash.

I'm DEFINITELY making progress now - my hair is only half dry and it looks brown/red, and I'm in low light. Usually it looks pitch black!

I'm SOOOOO excited. I'm soaking a hairball in the mixture I made overnight to see if there is any change.

Jarrah honey is something special, isn't it?

I am very happy for you. I am not so pleased that your hair feels so tacky. Jarrah honey previously has been reported to leave the hair feeling very good, so I hope that when you wash your hair again, that is the case for you too.

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 01:28 PM
I just posted this in 2 other threads, so I though that I might as well post it here too. It is a very informative, non technical article on dandruff, its causes and possible treatment options, in easy to understand English. The information is from the Mayo Clinic.
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/DS/00456.html

Here is the original article indexed, for easy reference.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dandruff/DS00456

krspies
November 10th, 2008, 06:29 PM
hi again. when I got off work today I went to wal-greens to try to find a swim cap. they apparently only carry them during the summer months. I tried target and wal-mart but they didn't have any either.

any ideas where I can get a swim cap this time of year?

I haven't had a chance to prepare a new mixture yet but I"m going to go mix some up here in a few minutes and the thought occurred to me that I may have read the measurements wrong. when I measured mine out I did 1/2 cup honey and 3 cups distilled water. did I use too much water? should I have had more honey for that amount of water?

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 06:51 PM
hi again. when I got off work today I went to wal-greens to try to find a swim cap. they apparently only carry them during the summer months. I tried target and wal-mart but they didn't have any either.

any ideas where I can get a swim cap this time of year?

I haven't had a chance to prepare a new mixture yet but I"m going to go mix some up here in a few minutes and the thought occurred to me that I may have read the measurements wrong. when I measured mine out I did 1/2 cup honey and 3 cups distilled water. did I use too much water? should I have had more honey for that amount of water?

You can order swim caps online year round. Here is one link.
http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/3620.htm

Here is a swim cap guide.
http://www.geocities.com/lapswimr/scg.html

And an LHC swim cap thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=8562

You recipe was oversize but ok otherwise.

You could try 1/4 cup honey to 12 oz distilled water, 1.5 cups US. You should get less drips, if 3 cups of distillled water worked last night. The rest of the recipe remains the same. You could use cardamom (ground) instead of or with the cinnamon.

If you want to try misting uncovered hair, saturate your hair with the treatment, wear a towel around your shoulders and mist your hair during the hour constantly to keep it wet, while you wait for the swim caps to be delivered, if you order online.

krspies
November 10th, 2008, 07:21 PM
ok will do. I'll give that a try. I figure I can keep applying the treatment until I can get a swim cap. hopefully it'll lift some of the henna in that time. if not at least I"ll have very smooth hair. LOL

krspies
November 10th, 2008, 07:22 PM
p.s. forgot to ask. does cardamom work better than cinnamon?

krspies
November 10th, 2008, 07:23 PM
I know this is going to sound dumb but after reading all this information I may have gotten myself turned around. Is it the honey that is the actual lightening agent or the cinnamon? did I read somewhere that adding lemon juice counteracts the honey? what would happen if I were to add lemon juice to the mix?

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 07:29 PM
I know this is going to sound dumb but after reading all this information I may have gotten myself turned around. Is it the honey that is the actual lightening agent or the cinnamon?

It goes like this (and it is a lot of information to absorb), cardamom has a higher peroxide level than cinnamon and there has only been one report so far in this thread of an irritation result, compared to several with ground cinnamon. Patch test please. You could be the second.

A honey with a good peroxide level, produces more peroxide than any of the honey lightening boosters, which raise the peroxide level of a recipe used separately, and if used in combination, like a spice and an oil, even more so.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

krspies
November 10th, 2008, 07:35 PM
so if I were to use more honey, more cinnamon and less water I'd get a higher level of peroxide?

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 07:38 PM
so if I were to use more honey, more cinnamon and less water I'd get a higher level of peroxide?

No, you would be lowering the pH level of the recipe and risking stronger irritation from the cinnamon at a higher concentration.

The dilution as is, helps the honey produce more peroxide by raising the pH of the solution. The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6 (most honeys on the market are very acidic). Both cinnamon and cardamom are also acidic. Based on reports, less spice works better with the new dilution, in terms of lightening results, than more spice, at less dilutions.

krspies
November 10th, 2008, 07:39 PM
thanks again ktani for your wisdom. I"m going to go find some ground cardamom tomorrow when I get off work and I'm actually ordering a swim cap right now. I'll let you know how it goes. now I gotta go cook dinner for those starving mouths that are flapping around my house!

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 07:42 PM
thanks again ktani for your wisdom. I"m going to go find some ground cardamom tomorrow when I get off work and I'm actually ordering a swim cap right now. I'll let you know how it goes. now I gotta go cook dinner for those starving mouths that are flapping around my house!

You are most welcome.

I suggest reading the LHC swim cap thread before you complete your online order, to see which swim caps work best.

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 07:50 PM
krspies

When this website comes back online, there are swim caps with chin straps, that I think make them more secure. ETA: It is back but it goes up and down. No worries, it just does that every once in a while.
http://www.geocities.com/lapswimr/scg.html

McCormicks ground cardamom has not been reported to cause irritation and is cheaper than other brands.

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 08:08 PM
A fair number of people follow this thread, even if they do not post here. So I am posting this here.

I just started looking into Vitamin D and hair after my mom's doctor recommended that I get some for my mom to supplement her diet. I did and bought some for myself, at the dosage recommended, 1000 IU. It was not recommended for hair per se. I am now taking it to improve my diet and to help get me through the dark winter days. Any hair benefits are a bonus.

In the more northern areas of North America, Vitamin D deficiency is common, and reasonable amounts of sunshine that are not cancer risking, are not sufficient to generate Vitamin D on skin.

My calcium supplement contains Vitamin D and many foods have it as well but according to my mom's doctor, who tested a number of her patients, they were all Vitamin D deficient.

Here is a recent article on Vitamin D and hair growth. It is in medical technospeak though.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1876678

This article is much easier to read and basically says that Vitamin D stimulates hair growth, at least in mice.
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/11/4389

ktani
November 10th, 2008, 10:04 PM
did I read somewhere that adding lemon juice counteracts the honey? what would happen if I were to add lemon juice to the mix?

I am obviously a bad influence, lol. You posted 3 posts consecutively, and then you edited, just like I do, lol. I missed this part. I do not consider any question to be dumb.

Lemon juice contains Vitamin C. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. If you add lemon juice to a honeny lightening recipe, you lower the peroxide level of the recipe. Vitamin C ingredients are no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening treatments. Examples of such ingredients are tomato products, lemon juice and hibiscus tea.

Aloe vera gel contains 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. A honey lightening treatment is not recommended to be applied to unwashed hair that has a leave-in that contains Vitamin C, like aloe gel or a left-in lemon juice rinse.

Flax seed gel is incompatible with strong oxidizers. Hydrogen peroxide is considered to be a moderately strong oxidizer, so flax seed gel counts as a leave-in to be be avoided as well (with a treatment applied over it). Flax seed gel will not necessarily lower the peroxide level, but it may interact with peroxide to result in a negative effect, IMO.

ktani
November 11th, 2008, 12:22 AM
As usual, the Mayo Clinic is a good source of information IMO, and is indexed, see "Article Sections", for easy reference. This is their take on Vitamin D. Date 2008
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitamin-d/NS_patient-vitamind

ktani
November 11th, 2008, 07:24 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
November 11th, 2008, 10:09 AM
I just did my sixth honey lightening using the jarrah and cinnamon.

I shampooed twice and conditioned once. My hair feels like total crap (tacky, coarse) but I'm not stressing, because I didn't really have enough conditioner, and this has happened before and it went back to normal after my next wash.

I'm DEFINITELY making progress now - my hair is only half dry and it looks brown/red, and I'm in low light. Usually it looks pitch black!

I'm SOOOOO excited. I'm soaking a hairball in the mixture I made overnight to see if there is any change.

I should have reposted the links below for you last night, in addition to this.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=338713&postcount=2740

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 06:25 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

gallows_gallery
November 12th, 2008, 06:39 AM
I am currently sitting with my seventh jarrah honey treatment on my head, using a tablespoon of ground cardamom.

I'm lucky enough to live in Western Australia - the home of Jarrah trees, so when I went to buy more honey this afternoon I had about 5 jarrah ones to choose from. Unfortunately there was no distilled water at the supermarket.

And ktani - thanks for your pm about my hair condition - I'm not stressed at all, I'm sure it will be fine after a good wash.

Results soon!

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 06:54 AM
I am currently sitting with my seventh jarrah honey treatment on my head, using a tablespoon of ground cardamom.

I'm lucky enough to live in Western Australia - the home of Jarrah trees, so when I went to buy more honey this afternoon I had about 5 jarrah ones to choose from. Unfortunately there was no distilled water at the supermarket.

And ktani - thanks for your pm about my hair condition - I'm not stressed at all, I'm sure it will be fine after a good wash.

Results soon!

You are most welcome. Keep looking out for distilled water.

Even though the Jarrah honey should work well with what you have IMO, your results will be better with distilled water.

ktani
November 12th, 2008, 10:51 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.