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ktani
September 23rd, 2008, 07:22 AM
Interesting, IMO.

I just mixed 1 heaping teaspoon of ground cassia cinnamon into a small amount of tap water (enough to dissolve it into solution).

My tap water tests pH 5.5 approximately, with pH test strips.

The ground cinnamon lowered it to between pH 4.5 to pH 5.

That would help account for honey and cinnamon mixed with certain tap water, to have a lower pH than 6, the optimal pH for a honey to produce peroxide and for the pH to be lower than 6, when cinnamon is mixed with conditioner.

I do not know the optimal pH for cinnamon to produce/release its peroxide, but from reported results in this thread, cinnamon added to recipes at the new dilution with distilled water, works better to help lighten hair and in less time, than with previous dilutions, using only distilled water, and less cinnamon is required.

Less cinnamon at the right pH IMO, would produce more peroxide than more cinnamon at the wrong one, is easier to wash out of the hair and there is less chance of irritation. Some people were ok with using cinnamon at 1 or 2 tablespoons, but higher amounts did cause irritation.

Jorchet
September 23rd, 2008, 07:48 AM
I've tried the new dilution twice so far but with tap water. I see some changes - specially second time around - but really really minuscule to notice. There are individual hairs that look lighter than they used to, but it's not working without the distilled water and I don't know where to get it here in the UK. I've looked in supermarkets and searched online, but nothing. :shrug:

I feel really frustrated because it's such hard work! First time I done it with dry hair, but my hair takes FOR-E-EVER to get wet, so second time, I jumped out of the shower and applied on wet hair. It dripped loads, but it worked better than the first time; my hair felt more wet at the end of the treatment.

I took pics, but you can't see the difference due to bad light - and cloudy skies! - so it's not really worth posting them.

Anyone knows where to get distilled water in the UK? Can you get it in pharmacies?

ktani
September 23rd, 2008, 07:52 AM
I've tried the new dilution twice so far but with tap water. I see some changes - specially second time around - but really really minuscule to notice. There are individual hairs that look lighter than they used to, but it's not working without the distilled water and I don't know where to get it here in the UK. I've looked in supermarkets and searched online, but nothing. :shrug:

I feel really frustrated because it's such hard work! First time I done it with dry hair, but my hair takes FOR-E-EVER to get wet, so second time, I jumped out of the shower and applied on wet hair. It dripped loads, but it worked better than the first time; my hair felt more wet at the end of the treatment.
I took pics, but you can't see the difference due to bad light - and cloudy skies! - so it's not really worth posting them.

Anyone knows where to get distilled water in the UK? Can you get it in pharmacies?


I did a post on this for UK honey lighteners. I will look it up for you.

ETA: I cannot find that post but this is information that is in it.
"Halfords or any other garage, just pick up some battery top up water. I've been using it for about 3 years without problems"
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Check out the top up water for additives. Deionized water will work too. See deionized water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water

Jorchet
September 23rd, 2008, 08:09 AM
I cannot find that post but this is information that is in it.
"Halfords or any other garage, just pick up some battery top up water. I've been using it for about 3 years withoutproblems"
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/...hp/t-3499.html

Check out the top up water for additives. Deionized water, sold for steam irons should work too, but try to get distilled, if you can.

LOL! I came to that same forum you posted the link for! I did a search on Halfords and they have de-ionised as well as Tesco on the car's stuff aisle so if I can't get distilled I'll go for any of them - we go to Tesco every Saturday for our shopping, so I could pick a bottle up and see how it goes.

As for the honey, I used Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys), bought it at Tesco as well. (it was on the list of succesful honeys (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin))

Thanks so much Ktani for your help - and your patience! :flowers:

ktani
September 23rd, 2008, 08:13 AM
LOL! I came to that same forum you posted the link for! I did a search on Halfords and they have de-ionised as well as Tesco on the car's stuff aisle so if I can't get distilled I'll go for any of them - we go to Tesco every Saturday for our shopping, so I could pick a bottle up and see how it goes.

As for the honey, I used Gale's 100% honey (a blend of EC and non-EC honeys), bought it at Tesco as well.

Thanks so much Ktani for your help - and your patience! :flowers:

You are most welcome.

I had just edited that sentence on deionized water, taking out the steam iron reference, before you replied, because I am unsure if it is sold for that purpose specifically, just so you know.

ktani
September 23rd, 2008, 10:21 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water (3 oz).

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
September 23rd, 2008, 10:41 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content, and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
September 23rd, 2008, 01:09 PM
It is the same explanation for both ground cinnamon, which as a pH lower than 6 on dilution, and honey IMO.

For honey, more peroxide is beinng produced with the new dilution, with distilled water or a tap water that has a pH of 7, and a very low mineral content (minerals can lower the peroxide level), than when honey is at a higher concentration, but a lower pH than 6, which is the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide.

This would explain why honey at a 1:2 concentration with conditioner, or at a dilution less than the new one, with distilled water, did not yield results that are as fast or as good as those, with the new dilution.

If a honey naturally has a pH of 6 on dilution, a higher concentration (less distilled water), can be used. However, if ground cinnamon is added to recipe, the new dilution would be best IMO, and has been reported to work better than even the previous dilution, with less distilled water.

I think that most honeys on the market have a lower pH than 6 on dilution. The only way to know would be to test a honey you buy. The new dilution, seems to work well with most honeys and honey lightening boosters, provided that the honey can produce a high enough peroxide value to lighten hair.

From current results reported in this thread, that seems to be less of a problem than it was once perceived to be.

ktani
September 23rd, 2008, 02:48 PM
A special thanks to iris, for working out the new dilution in tablespoons.

1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water or (3 oz)

2 tablespoons (1/8 cup) honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water or (6oz)

4 tablespoons (1/4 cup) honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water or (12 oz)

ktani
September 23rd, 2008, 07:16 PM
Jarrah honey is known to have a very high peroxide value.

“WA scientists claim jarrah honey benefit
Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average .... But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf

see "Comparing Different Types of Honey" - date 2008
" .... Jarrah honey .... contains higher amounts of glucose oxidase .... "
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

Glucose oxidase is the enzyme in honey that produces hydrogen peroxide.

Jarrah honey suppliers I found and contacted - prices and shipping costs vary as will stock amounts. There are no doubt more suppliers out there - this to start you off. As more are reported, I will add them to this list.

International shipping will be noted with an asterisk *.

*1. Their price list and they report Jarrah honey in stock (confirmed June 2008 ). They do ship internationally.
Prices
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html)
Contact page
http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html)

*2. Yes to Jarrah honey in stock (confirmed June 2008 ) and they ship internationally. This one seems to be fast on replies to inquiries.
Contact page
http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm)
Order page with prices
<A href="http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm" target=_blank>http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm)

ktani
September 24th, 2008, 06:11 AM
Ground cardomom, although I have not tested it, I believe has an acidic pH below 6 as well as ground cinnamon, (it contains a small amount of Vitamin C but has the higer peroxide value than cinnamon, and is the only exception to using something with Vitamin C, that I recommend for a honey lightening treatment).

A honey lightening recipe with ground cardamom, has been reported to work well, with the new dilution and distilled water.

All things considered, with most honeys being acidic with a pH of less than 6 (6 being the optimal pH for a honey to produce peroxide) and probably both spice boosters as well, the new dilution with distilled water (pH 7and no minerals to deplete peroxide), which has been reported to work well with a large variety of honeys and all boosters, is IMO, the best option, in terms of a honey to water concentration.

ktani
September 24th, 2008, 09:29 AM
A recent result of a honey lightning treatment with ground cardamom, at the new dilution, using distilled water.

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
September 25th, 2008, 07:01 AM
3 things remain consistent in all of the reports on honey lightening, no matter how much lightening is achieved.

1. No hair damage has been reported; weak, gummy, split or broken hair, no matter how long or how often a treatment has been applied.

2. Even though the new dilution requires more distilled water than previous dilutions, the condition of the hair following a treatment has been reported as soft, smooth and shiny (some people have left a treatment on longer than 1 hour, just for extra conditioning).

3. Honey residue, which can leave the hair feeling dry and the ends stiff, has been reported to be easily removed with shampoo and when that is done, the hair returns to a soft, smooth feeling and is shiny.

ktani
September 25th, 2008, 07:09 AM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
September 25th, 2008, 07:51 AM
Honey residue

Different honeys leave different amounts of residue on hair. Some honeys leave no discernable residue and require no extra shampooing.

Both raw and pasteurized honey can leave a residue, that can leave the hair feeling dry and stiff.

However, shampoo has been reported to easily remove this residue but may require more than 1 shampooing to do so.

A vinegar rinse has been reported to help as well to remove honey residue, but is not as effective as shampoo alone, from reports.

ktani
September 25th, 2008, 08:20 AM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with strong oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and can deplete or negatively interact, with the peroxide levels of honey lightening recipes, IMO.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be enough protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pretreatment (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=526598&postcount=3521) before conventional peroxide (which is much stronger than honey lightening peroxide) is used, and the peroxide applied over them (coconut or coconut and argan oils are the best choices for that) or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce natural peroxide.

Here is a thread about helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach and hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut and argan oils (which contain protective chelators (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pretreatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

wintersun99
September 25th, 2008, 05:15 PM
Dropping in for an update...

As you may remember, I recently cut the bottom (maybe 3-4") of my hair (damage) which was also the most concentrated, darkest deposits of indigo in my hair. Since then, I've continued to use the honey mix once a week, primarily for the condition. I have also let my roots grow enough such that I can begin to see what my natural color is going to be... the roots are about 1/2" at present and appear to be of a similar color to what I've been able to lighten the rest of my indio'd hair to... so, I am quite pleased. I will not be actively using the honey mix for lightening anymore, but will still use it for a deep conditioning ingredient (will probably go back to mixing it with conditioner.)

Good luck to you all, have patience! :D

ktani
September 25th, 2008, 05:40 PM
Dropping in for an update...

As you may remember, I recently cut the bottom (maybe 3-4") of my hair (damage) which was also the most concentrated, darkest deposits of indigo in my hair. Since then, I've continued to use the honey mix once a week, primarily for the condition. I have also let my roots grow enough such that I can begin to see what my natural color is going to be... the roots are about 1/2" at present and appear to be of a similar color to what I've been able to lighten the rest of my indio'd hair to... so, I am quite pleased. I will not be actively using the honey mix for lightening anymore, but will still use it for a deep conditioning ingredient (will probably go back to mixing it with conditioner.)

Good luck to you all, have patience! :D

Great news and thank you for posting the update.

If you do not need to lighten further to match your roots, I take it that there is no obvious line of demarcation.

Excellent!!!!

You do have options, the new dilution for lightening, which still conditions well, and honey mixed with conditioner, for straight conditioning. You may still get some lightening from the honey conditioner mix but it can be very gradual. If you want ensure no possibility of lightenig from a honey conditioner mix, I suggest 2 things.

1. Microwave the honey separately for under 1 minute.

2. Try using honey with Aussie Cleanse and Mend Conditioner (1 part honey to 2 parts conditioner), which has been reported to condition well with honey, but not lighten hair.

wintersun99
September 25th, 2008, 05:45 PM
I think there will be a line of demarcation, partially do to the fact that my natural color is an ash-brown, with no red tones AND the most noticeable difference is that there are some gray hairs in the new growth that are not a part of the length (which also has some red tones.) So, the overall shade is very close, but the tone is off... however, the blending should be just fine and dandy. :D

ktani
September 25th, 2008, 05:54 PM
I think there will be a line of demarcation, partially do to the fact that my natural color is an ash-brown, with no red tones AND the most noticeable difference is that there are some gray hairs in the new growth that are not a part of the length (which also has some red tones.) So, the overall shade is very close, but the tone is off... however, the blending should be just fine and dandy. :D

Right, my error, you were continuing to use henna and lately katam, which you said did not darken for you, I forgot.

wintersun99
September 25th, 2008, 05:56 PM
Thankfully, I do like being a brunette and will not be going back to henna so a little bit of brownish red shouldn't be too hard to deal with... thanks for the conditioner recommendation, I'll see if I can find it... if not, I will certainly heat the honey prior to use. Thanks again!!!!! :)

ktani
September 25th, 2008, 05:59 PM
Thankfully, I do like being a brunette and will not be going back to henna so a little bit of brownish red shouldn't be too hard to deal with... thanks for the conditioner recommendation, I'll see if I can find it... if not, I will certainly heat the honey prior to use. Thanks again!!!!! :)

How red is your length now?

It will take some time to see how things blend. Hair colour changes as it grows and weathers, especially the top layers.

Good luck and you are most welcome!

wintersun99
September 25th, 2008, 06:21 PM
Oh, the length isn't red, it just has reddish tones (brownish red) as opposed to the re-growth which is ash-brown...

ktani
September 25th, 2008, 06:34 PM
Oh, the length isn't red, it just has reddish tones (brownish red) as opposed to the re-growth which is ash-brown...

I agree, that should not be too bad.

You could do henna glosses by adding henna to conditioner, if you need to until your hair grows out, but I do not know how permanent that may be.

ktani
September 26th, 2008, 05:48 AM
wintersun99

I was not thinking of any large amount of henna added to conditioner, just a small amount, enough to add that hit of red, but even that may be too much in terms of henna's ability to bind to hair.

ktani
September 26th, 2008, 05:56 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral contentand honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

iris
September 26th, 2008, 06:10 AM
wintersun99

I was not thinking of any large amount of henna added to conditioner, just a small amount, enough to add that hit of red, but even that may be too much in terms of henna's ability to bind to hair.
In my experience really small amounts of henna (say a teaspoon of henna for a whole head) don't actually give a reddish tint; they give a golden to brassy golden tint.

It showed up very clearly on my dark blonde hair, wintersun is a bit darker though. But in any case you need more than a bit of henna to get it to show up reddish, so that would defy the purpose.

If it blends well enough, I'd just leave the roots alone.

One other trick you can do to blend the length better, if it's necessary at all, is to use a wash-out dye (the 8-10 washes kind) - either a reddish one on the roots to make them blend better, or a blue on on the hennaed length. Alba-NY used manic panic blue on her length - changes the color to a more neutral, darker brown - I think she has pictures in her journal in the archives.

But again, if it blends well enough, I'd just leave it alone.

Iris

ktani
September 26th, 2008, 06:38 AM
In my experience really small amounts of henna (say a teaspoon of henna for a whole head) don't actually give a reddish tint; they give a golden to brassy golden tint.

It showed up very clearly on my dark blonde hair, wintersun is a bit darker though. But in any case you need more than a bit of henna to get it to show up reddish, so that would defy the purpose.

If it blends well enough, I'd just leave the roots alone.

One other trick you can do to blend the length better, if it's necessary at all, is to use a wash-out dye (the 8-10 washes kind) - either a reddish one on the roots to make them blend better, or a blue on on the hennaed length. Alba-NY used manic panic blue on her length - changes the color to a more neutral, darker brown - I think she has pictures in her journal in the archives.

But again, if it blends well enough, I'd just leave it alone.

Iris

Thank you

I had a feeling that my suggestion was not the best in this case.

I think that your suggestions, based on your personal experience, expertise, and knowledge of henna are much better.

wintersun99
September 26th, 2008, 09:26 AM
Thanks all...

For now, I plan to just leave it alone. It's getting to be quite chilly here and soon it will be full-blown down jackets and hats weather... so, I will probably just invest in a couple cute wool hats and decide what to do (if anything) in the Spring... I might have to throw out 2 unopened packages of Jamilla henna though, just to avoid the temptation. :D

ktani
September 26th, 2008, 09:31 AM
Thanks all...

For now, I plan to just leave it alone. It's getting to be quite chilly here and soon it will be full-blown down jackets and hats weather... so, I will probably just invest in a couple cute wool hats and decide what to do (if anything) in the Spring... I might have to throw out 2 unopened packages of Jamilla henna though, just to avoid the temptation. :D

I wish you well and thank you for posting.

I am like that too, lol. If something I want to avoid is in the house, I get tempted.

wintersun99
September 26th, 2008, 09:35 AM
To Add:
Honey mix that I've been using primarily, to date...

3/4 cup distilled water
1/8 cup Nature's brand honey
2 tablespoon cinnamon

Left to sit between 45min-1hr and then applied to damp hair, covered with a plastic bag tied tightly to head and then a fleece hat over that to hold in place. Left on hair 1-2 hr. Rinsed out with water.

ktani
September 26th, 2008, 09:49 AM
To Add:
Honey mix that I've been using primarily, to date...

3/4 cup distilled water
1/8 cup Nature's brand honey
2 tablespoon cinnamon

Left to sit between 45min-1hr and then applied to damp hair, covered with a plastic bag tied tightly to head and then a fleece hat over that to hold in place. Left on hair 1-2 hr. Rinsed out with water.

Thank you for posting the details. Your results are IMO, another confirmation of the success of the new dilution.

Your recipe and method are perfect, in terms of the new dilution and a way to secure the plastic (shower cap).

3/4 cup is a US measurement = 6 oz distilled water = 12 tablespoons = 1/2 cup Metric, for 4 x the amount of distilled water by weight (honey is heavier than water), needed for 1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons = 1.5 oz.

ktani
September 26th, 2008, 10:08 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
September 26th, 2008, 02:48 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
September 26th, 2008, 07:05 PM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=274753&postcount=2243) Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this. The honey lightening spices, ground or powdered cinnamon and cardamom are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without minerals.

Less of the spices, used with the new dilution and distilled water, have been reported to yield better results, than more of the spices, at lower dilutions, with distilled water.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
September 27th, 2008, 08:06 PM
I think wearing a swim cap is the best option for keeping a honey lightening treatment wet and secured and because the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered, a swim cam should stay on more easily, than if the hair were dry.

In the swim cap thread, there is a swim cap guide with caps that have chin straps, which IMO, are a great idea.

Information on swim caps.

Speedo swim cap for long hair
http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/3620.htm

LHC swim cap thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=8562

ktani
September 29th, 2008, 06:20 AM
P&G has some very interesting current research being reported, IMO.

And this research further supports honey lightening treatments being non damaging.

The flavonoids in honey and honey lightening recipe ingredients that protect hair fom hydrogen peroxide damage, do so by chelating the the free iron, that starts the reaction that forms free radicals, when peroxide reacts with hair.

"Current permanent color uses .... combination of hydrogen peroxide, ammonia and a high pH .... removes up to 99 percent of the protective, lubricious f-layer of .... hair's surface. This causes irreversible physiochemical changes .... result in dryness, dullness and increased susceptibility to mechanical stress. .... majority of this damage is caused by a very high pH (10-11) and the HO* radical .... undesired by-product of the peroxide lightening system."
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/breakthroughs-xiii.html

ktani
September 29th, 2008, 07:02 AM
More from P&G

"Harmful radicals attack and damage DNA, proteins (collagen, elastin, keratin) .... moisture barrier lipids and contribute to aging .... decomposition of cells. These radicals can be fought by using antioxidants."
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/breakthroughs-xiii.html

The protective flavonoids in honey lightening recipes are chelators and antioxidants.

Henna Sooq
September 29th, 2008, 07:22 AM
ktani so nice to see you keeping busy with this thread still :)

It's been awhile since I used honey as it was only to remove some of the henna and freshen up my hair with the honey and cassia mix with it's chamomile tea base.

I am so due to do a big henna job on myself :) It's yemeni here I come.

I personally use local honey, or honey brought in from Quebec.

ktani
September 29th, 2008, 07:37 AM
ktani so nice to see you keeping busy with this thread still :)

It's been awhile since I used honey as it was only to remove some of the henna and freshen up my hair with the honey and cassia mix with it's chamomile tea base.

I am so due to do a big henna job on myself :) It's yemeni here I come.

I personally use local honey, or honey brought in from Quebec.

It is very nice to have you drop in. It has been a while.

Yes, things are still busy in this thread.

I no longer recommend herbal tea for honey lightening. Chamomile can add gold tones to the hair and other herbs can contain Vitamin C or minerals, that can deplete the peroxide level of a recipe.

I think this recipe and method that firebird used with cassia

firebird on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair - with ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

and morgwn used too, is much better.

morgwn - on virgin hair with cassia - after using firebird's new honey lightening recipe with cassia, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134211&postcount=1097

morgwn - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening with cassia
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134370&postcount=1101

Henna Sooq
September 29th, 2008, 07:58 AM
Oh okay, that is good to know. I know the chamomile can add the yellowing tones. It didn't bother me though since it didn't show up on my dark hair.

I am gonna look at those other recipes for sure.

So as I was reading through, I saw some felt the honey was also an added conditioner for the hair. Any info on this? and how it is also a lightener and a conditioner?

ktani
September 29th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Oh okay, that is good to know. I know the chamomile can add the yellowing tones. It didn't bother me though since it didn't show up on my dark hair.

I am gonna look at those other recipes for sure.

So as I was reading through, I saw some felt the honey was also an added conditioner for the hair. Any info on this? and how it is also a lightener and a conditioner?

The peroxide in honey can lighten hair colour, but the protective flavonoids prevent it from being damaging. The humectant properties of honey and other factors are conditioning. Honey does double duty.

ktani
September 29th, 2008, 10:16 AM
For those who just want to condition with honey, and have no possibilty of lightening, there are several options.

1. Mirowave the honey for 30 seconds to under 1 minute.

2. Untested, add a few drops of raw potato juice to the honey. It contains catalase, which like Vitamin C, can deplete peroxide.

3. Use Aussie Cleanse and Mend Conditioner, 2 to 1 with honey. It was reported to yield excellent conditioning with a honey but no lightening. The same honey with a different conditioner was reported to lighten hair.

ktani
September 29th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Jorchet

Were you able to find distilled water?

ktani
September 29th, 2008, 07:49 PM
Deionized water has been reported to work effectively for honey lightening.

I still recommend distilled water if it is available.

Purified water
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 07:02 AM
A honey lightening treatment can be applied to wet or dry unwashed hair.

However, it is important that the hair not have; a lot of oil on it that can act a water barrier to the treatment, product residue, or a leave-in like aloe gel or a lemon juice rinse on it that contains Vitamin C (both of these contain Vitamin C), that can interfere with the treatment.

If necessary, clarify the hair first with your choice of method. I suggest a simple basic shampoo for normal hair, that does not contain silicone, oil, or "extras", like too much protein (protein is usually in the form of a film former) or waxy type ingredients.

Many shampoos now contain ingredients that have waxy conditioning ingredients added to them, to help condition hair. An example of one of these is Glycol Distearate.

Anything with stearate in the name, contains stearic acid, a fatty alcohol, which is waxy. It is not a bad ingredient but depending what else is in the shampoo, IMO, it can contribute to build-up.

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 07:25 AM
Honey lightening basics

A honey lighteng treatment is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

themostsilly
September 30th, 2008, 07:50 AM
I dyed my hair last night, and the result was WAY too dark-its nearly black. I am interested in trying honey lightening. I noticed the main recipe is honey mixed with water, but could I mix the honey with conditioner and yield similar results? I do not want it too light, but definitely lighter than it is now..what would be the best method for me? Your advice and knowledge are much appreciated

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 08:28 AM
I dyed my hair last night, and the result was WAY too dark-its nearly black. I am interested in trying honey lightening. I noticed the main recipe is honey mixed with water, but could I mix the honey with conditioner and yield similar results? I do not want it too light, but definitely lighter than it is now..what would be the best method for me? Your advice and knowledge are much appreciated

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 3 reasons.

1. Its pH is too low mixed with honey, to allow the honey produce more peroxide at its optimal pH of 6 (most honey has a pH lower than 6)

2. Conditioner can contain ingredients that interfere with the lightening.

3. Conditioner does not contain enough water for the optimal dilution, mixed with honey.

With the new dilution and distilled water, you can add a peroxide booster; ground cinnamon, ground cardamom, (patch test both), coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil.

Here is a result of honey lightening on almost black colour-treated hair, with a progression of recipes, the last and most effective of which, was the new dilution and Jarrah honey.

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which is red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

hennabrain
September 30th, 2008, 08:32 AM
ktani,

how much of an effect does using distilled water have, vs. filtered water? is it really pronounced?

thanks

paula

themostsilly
September 30th, 2008, 08:41 AM
Thanks, I think I am going to try it tonight. BTW does the honey lightening, tend to give more results with red tones...? One of the reasons I dyed my hair was to get rid or the red tones I had in it, so I would like to avoid that if at all possible.
I am excited to try this, and I am not feeling so down about my hair as much.

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 08:47 AM
ktani,

how much of an effect does using distilled water have, vs. filtered water? is it really pronounced?

thanks

paula

As far as I know, filtered water does not remove minerals, just impurities. Distilled or deionized water has no mineral content.

Filtered water does not change the pH of your tap water, depending on the system (reverse osmosis can) and unless the water ph is 7 or higher, with a very low to no mineral content, it would not be suitable for honey lightening, even with the new dilution, IMO.

Distilled water used with the new dilution, has been reported to work much better with honey lightening, than filtered water.

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 09:15 AM
Thanks, I think I am going to try it tonight. BTW does the honey lightening, tend to give more results with red tones...? One of the reasons I dyed my hair was to get rid or the red tones I had in it, so I would like to avoid that if at all possible.
I am excited to try this, and I am not feeling so down about my hair as much.

I am glad that you are feeling better about your hair.

Even if the results are not what you want at first, honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage, not once. The worst you can expect, aside from not getting the lightening you want, is a bit of honey residue, which can easily be removed with shampoo and if this is done, the result is temporary (honey residue can leave the hair feeling dry and the ends stiff).

As for red tones, it depends on your starting colour but here are 2 results on virgin brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones from hair.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her hair adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 09:32 AM
This has not come up in a while.

Towels and honey lightening.

Towels can be used 2 ways with a honey lightening treatment.

1. Worn around the neck to catch drips.

2. Worn over plastic to help secure it, although a snug hat is better for that, IMO.

Do not use a towel or any absorbent material to cover a honey lightening treatment. It will absorb the water, drying the hair, and make the treatment less effective or useless, IMO.

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 10:16 AM
This is repeat of a post I did on changing a hair colour.

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module&#37;20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment graules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour, and the older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

eyesofsummer
September 30th, 2008, 11:56 AM
I'm sorry if this has already been answered, but why must the hair stay wet while the honey solution is on it? Would allowing the honey to dry on the hair stop it from releasing peroxide?

Also, would starting the treatment with wet hair dilute the honey solution? Would it dilute it to the point where I would need to adjust the original honey-water ratio?

I'm in the middle of a treatment right now because I was anxious to try. I have classes throughout the day so it's hard to leave this stuff on my hair for enough time. I would go to class with my hair in a braid (this would definitely keep most of my hair damp, but it would start to dry out...although I suppose I could mist it with solution between classes?)

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 12:26 PM
I'm sorry if this has already been answered, but why must the hair stay wet while the honey solution is on it? Would allowing the honey to dry on the hair stop it from releasing peroxide?

Also, would starting the treatment with wet hair dilute the honey solution? Would it dilute it to the point where I would need to adjust the original honey-water ratio?

I'm in the middle of a treatment right now because I was anxious to try. I have classes throughout the day so it's hard to leave this stuff on my hair for enough time. I would go to class with my hair in a braid (this would definitely keep most of my hair damp, but it would start to dry out...although I suppose I could mist it with solution between classes?)

Welcome to LHC and Honey.

No worries about repeat questions.

You are correct in that if the hair dries, and you had not let the solution sit for one hour in advance of application to produce peroxide, the honey would stop producing peroxide.

Even if you had let the treatment sit for 1 hour in advance, the peroxide would not be effective if the hair dried while the treatment is on the hair, during the time allowed.

Wet hair would not interfere with the new dilution water to honey ratio.

If honey lightening done with the correct method, with the hair being very wet with the treatment both before and while covered, it only needs to be on the hair for 1 hour, per treatment.

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 08:15 PM
Research on the protective constituents of honey lightening recipe ingredients and how as a pre treatment coconut oil has been reported to protect the hair from conventional peroxide, can be found in this thread.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
September 30th, 2008, 10:02 PM
Another possible way to reduce drips with honey lightening, may be to use 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons or 3 oz of distilled water. Less solution (it is still the same dilution) may be enough for some hair types and lengths. The rest of the guidlines and covering the hair securely with a swim cap (recommended) apply.

Jorchet
October 1st, 2008, 01:57 AM
Jorchet

Were you able to find distilled water?

Not yet, but I did buy deionized water last weekend and I'll see if I can give it a go today. I'll report back.

ktani
October 1st, 2008, 06:23 AM
Not yet, but I did buy deionized water last weekend and I'll see if I can give it a go today. I'll report back.

Good luck

I look for ward to your new results.

ktani
October 1st, 2008, 06:30 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There have been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, (the first Honey thread was started December 2006) including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in this thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495) and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair in other threads on these boards, when accidental lightening has been reported to have occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can be easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done, with 1 exception, where there was an unusual amount of residue that responded to shampoo but was still difficult to deal with.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
October 1st, 2008, 06:46 AM
Even when honey lightening has not yielded expected lightening, it has been reported to be conditioning to hair.

Honey lightening has not been reported to make already damaged hair worse.

Just the opposite, honey lightening has been reported to make already damaged hair softer. This will of course, depend on the amount of damage and the hair of the individual.

ktani
October 1st, 2008, 07:04 AM
I have saved and I reread all of the Honey threads as needed, to go over previous reports, and for this thread, I keep records of posts. I also make it a point to ask about the condition of the hair following honey lightening, and this being a website about hair and its condition, people also volunteer that kind of information.

ktani
October 1st, 2008, 09:17 AM
I find these research breakthrough reports by P&G fascinating.

This one has everything from the latest on danfruff to wrinkes, colour-treated and more.

Highlights

"The images .... below illustrate changes between non-color treated and color treated hair: on the right, bleach damaged hair fibers .... become hydrophilic as seen in the flattened-out shape and acute contact angle. on the left, undamaged hair fibers repel the water.... it stays in a tight sphere with an obtuse contact angle."

"Good skin care and sun protection habits .... help keep you looking more youthful longer, no matter what your genetic inventory"

"In a breakthrough genomic discovery recently published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS), scientists from P&G Beauty successfully sequenced the entire genome of the fungus Malassezia globosa (M. globosa) .... responsible for the onset of dandruff and other conditions in humans ...."
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/breakthroughs-xiv.html

hennabrain
October 1st, 2008, 09:27 AM
As far as I know, filtered water does not remove minerals, just impurities. Distilled or deionized water has no mineral content.

Filtered water does not change the pH of your tap water, depending on the system (reverse osmosis can) and unless the water ph is 7 or higher, with a very low to no mineral content, it would not be suitable for honey lightening, even with the new dilution, IMO.

Distilled water used with the new dilution, has been reported to work much better with honey lightening, than filtered water.

ok, thanks. i will try to get some distilled water, then. :)

ktani
October 1st, 2008, 09:32 AM
ok, thanks. i will try to get some distilled water, then. :)

You are most welcome.

Distilled or deionized water should work well. I recommend distilled if it is available.

ktani
October 1st, 2008, 09:45 AM
"Myth: Low ammonia .... better for .... hair.
Fact: All combinations of ammonia as well as MEA, another alkali, can damage hair because of their high pH level. The damage, a function of peroxide, occurs from the chemicals formed when the mixed peroxide and alkali come in contact with the hair. ... primary benefit of low ammonia is less odor."
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/fact-vs.-fiction-hair-dye-revealed.html

One of the reactions that happens from the peroxide/bleach combination, is the formation of free radicals, which the chelants in honey lightening recipe ingredients, used as a pre treatment, like coconut oil, help protect the hair from.

ktani
October 1st, 2008, 10:33 AM
More news from this thread, Pages 6 & 7, a report from FrannyG.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495&page=6

ktani
October 2nd, 2008, 09:12 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
October 2nd, 2008, 09:20 AM
Ground cinnamon is acidic. Like honey, it also works better wth the new dilution, than with previous dilutions.

Of course, ground cinnamon works better with mineral free water (distilled), which does not delpete its peroxide level, but the change of the pH (through the dilution) of the treatment, has been reported to make a difference in a number of reported results. Less ground cinnamon has worked better with the new dilution than with more cinnamon at other dilutions, even with distilled water.

ktani
October 2nd, 2008, 09:33 AM
The minimum amount of honey to be used for a lighteng treatment is 10 grams.

1 tablespoon of honey is approximately 21 grams. Depending on the length and thickness of the hair, 1 tablespoon of honey can be used with 6 tablespoons of distilled water = 3 oz. This may help cut down on drips for some.

The hair needs to be very with with a treatmment, (not soaking wet on its own) both before and while covered, during the 1 hour a treatment is on the hair.

Honey lightening recipes can also be applied to residue, leave-in free dry hair. The hair must be fully saturated and very wet with the treatment in this case as well, in order to get the best possible results.

A swim cap is recommeded to cover the hair. There are swim caps for long hair with chin straps to help secure them. I think that this is a much better option than plastic bags that can slip or shower caps that require extra things worn over them.

LHC swim cap thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=8562

A swim cap guide
http://www.geocities.com/lapswimr/scg.html

ktani
October 2nd, 2008, 01:25 PM
For vegans who are opposed to using honey, or there is another reason, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide). The honey lightening boosters do not indivdually have a higher peroxide level than most honeys can have.

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).

ktani
October 3rd, 2008, 07:23 AM
The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too. I tested ground cinnamon. Its pH is about 4.5 and cardamom hydrosol is pH 4.5 - 4.8, http://www.naturalgreen.ca/Product/Cardamom-Essential-Oil.html.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of a recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
October 3rd, 2008, 07:46 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
October 3rd, 2008, 07:47 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
October 3rd, 2008, 08:53 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral contentand honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
October 3rd, 2008, 09:14 AM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, even baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

Fethenwen, after 2 treatments, using cardamom essential oil , 1 tsp powdered cinnamon and distilled water, using the new dilution on 2 years of hennaed hair (the last 6 months, doing roots only)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528061&postcount=3528, another picture of the new hair colour, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=530005&postcount=3553

recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528479&postcount=3538

method details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=528527&postcount=3540

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

Sokudo Ningyou, honey, distilled water and 1 teaspoon ground (powdered) cinnamon, on 3 year old henna, grown out for 6 months, and on the condition of her hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=627717&postcount=3851

ktani
October 3rd, 2008, 08:16 PM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
October 4th, 2008, 10:40 AM
Honey lightening on henndigoed hair

Indigo is another plant that has varied results on individuals. It can fade easily for some people or be very difficult to lighten.

Honey lightening has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair too. The new dilution, has been reported to work better than previous dilutions, on the more difficult, hard to lighten henndigo. However, some concentrations of henndigo proved resistant to any lightening (except a bleach recipe that all but destroyed test samples), even with conventional peroxide, on test samples of cut off ends, for wintersun99.

bizarrogirl used a previous dilution for her treatments, that included conditioner. However, when more water was added, her results were even better and less ground cinnamon was used. This lead in part to conditioner no longer being recommended for honey lightening. For many others, conditioner did not improve results and in some cases, interfered with honey lightening.

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/)

wintersun99 - due to unforseen circumstances, pictures are no longer available. However, the links below contain valuable information, in terms of her report.

wintersunn99 update
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281159&postcount=2278

wintersun99's honey lightening recipe and method Note: 3/4 cup is a US measurement = 1/2 cup Metric = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281794&postcount=2292

ktani
October 4th, 2008, 11:34 AM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown.

Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color. Melanin .... found in the cortex.

Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin are present in the hair.

What determines the hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

and
a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

... when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important.

The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another.

Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module&#37;20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
October 4th, 2008, 12:01 PM
I have now "loaded" the first post of this thread, with posts in response to some of the most asked questions, and providing easy reference to those seeking specific information.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

ktani
October 4th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
October 5th, 2008, 07:33 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
October 5th, 2008, 07:34 AM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Honigwein
October 5th, 2008, 08:52 AM
Same text twice, sorry;

Honigwein
October 5th, 2008, 08:53 AM
Now I understand why my hair is getting lighter... without knowing it I started to use olive oil with honey and coconut milk in my hair because I read it would be good to keep its length(since it´s curled)looking better. My hair is shinny and much softer and I confess I´m not very pleased with its lightening because I didn´t want it. Anyway it looks a natural color as you can notice. Thanks for your thread!:poot:

ktani
October 5th, 2008, 08:59 AM
Now I understand why my hair is getting lighter... without knowing it I started to use olive oil with honey and coconut milk in my hair because I read it would be good to keep its length(since it&#180;s curled)looking better. My hair is shinny and much softer and I confess I&#180;m not very pleased with its lightening because I didn&#180;t want it. Anyway it looks a natural color as you can notice. Thanks for your thread!:poot:

You are most welcome.

Your hair does look natural and the recipe that you are using would give you gradual lightening, that would take time to be noticeable.

Try mocrowaving the honey for 30 seconds to under one minute for future use. You should not get much lightening from the coconut milk and olive oil on their own. Coconut milk has an acidic pH, and contains minerals and some contains Vitamin C which would deplete its peroxide value. Olive oil needs to be diluted to lighten. With the mix you have been using, you have not been getting the maximum lightening you could with honey and the olive oil, but that is not what you wanted in any case.

ktani
October 5th, 2008, 11:30 AM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, recipes and methods used, even on baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of he hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
October 5th, 2008, 02:59 PM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

ktani
October 5th, 2008, 03:20 PM
Olive oil news

"Oils with polyunsaturated fatty acids .... have difficulty in penetrating hair. It is possible that these molecules do not fit into the fiber's cell membrane complexes .... known to be the diffusion pathways in the keratin fiber. .... monounsaturated oils, such as olive oil, with more compact molecular structure seem to penetrate readily into the hair fiber."
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...a25o.alexandra (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ics/2005/00000027/00000005/art00017;jsessionid=3cs733irba25o.alexandra)

ktani
October 5th, 2008, 04:10 PM
So now there are 2 honey lightening boosters that can penetrate hair, adding extra conditioning to a treatment, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil.

ktani
October 5th, 2008, 06:22 PM
I just added this to the other thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=293276&postcount=66

There have been no reports of honey lightening adding colour to hair. The oil is diluted with honey lightening and the recipes call for very little oil, 1 tablespoon or less.

As a pre treatment or conditioning treatment though, staight oil that is yellow, or any colour, may be a problem on ash tones.

ETA: It appears that coconut oil is preferable to olive oil, even evoo, as a pre treatment with conventional hair colour applied on top of it. That is most interesting, IMO. I go into more detail in the other thread.

ktani
October 6th, 2008, 05:35 AM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
October 6th, 2008, 08:08 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

Honigwein
October 6th, 2008, 08:28 AM
I think all this is quite interesting. I read here coconut oil can be an alternative for olive oil. Do you know what one is a better choice for lightening(not for me but i&#180;m curious)? Maybe I can start using coconut oil instead of coconut milk on my hair. Do you know a good recipe containing coconut oil and maybe honey for hair treatment? Thank you.

ktani
October 6th, 2008, 09:04 AM
I think all this is quite interesting. I read here coconut oil can be an alternative for olive oil. Do you know what one is a better choice for lightening(not for me but i&#180;m curious)? Maybe I can start using coconut oil instead of coconut milk on my hair. Do you know a good recipe containing coconut oil and maybe honey for hair treatment? Thank you.

Both oils are honey lightening boosters (they add extra peroxide) to a treatment. Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

Here is the post with links and explanations.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

As a conditioning treatment, try mixing the coconut oil and honey straight, no added water. Honey only produces peroxide on dilution with liquids. Oil contains no water or liquid as such. Neither oil has been reported to lighten hair on their own very much at all.

I would use maybe 1 tablespoon of coconut or olive oil or less, and half that amount of honey to start out. Just make sure that you add no water. The oil should make the honey easier to work with, and apply the mix to dry hair only. You will have to experiment with amounts that you are comfortable with.

Honigwein
October 6th, 2008, 10:31 AM
Thank you!!!:D

ktani
October 6th, 2008, 10:37 AM
Thank you!!!:D

You are most welcome.

ktani
October 6th, 2008, 12:11 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
October 6th, 2008, 05:59 PM
A post on cassia senna, its chemistry and its pH sensitivity.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=294409&postcount=10

ktani
October 6th, 2008, 06:32 PM
I wonder now, if the name neutral henna, often used for cassia senna, refers to the pH of the solution needed for it to yield no colour. pH 7 is neutral.

ktani
October 7th, 2008, 07:48 AM
Current honey lightening recipes havenot been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening treatments, 4 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, (a long conditioner soak), http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295193&postcount=46, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV (Chagrin Valley) shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

4. ACV (apple cider vinegar) can a red tones to lighter hair colours. Its colour will not necessrily show up on darker shades, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=49816 and http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1253048&postcount=14

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

ktani
October 7th, 2008, 10:20 AM
All castor oil links on darkening hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160719&postcount=1311

ktani
October 7th, 2008, 10:58 AM
A Comprehensive Summary of the Newest Honey Lightening Recommendations.

These recommendations are based on accredited research and successful honey lightening reports in this thread. Patch test any ingredient not previously used on the scalp or skin.

1. The new dilution is 4 x the amount of water to honey, calculated by weight. It is now the recommended dilution to be used for honey lightening. The minimum amount of honey to be used is 10 grams. Here is a honey conversion link. 10 grams of honey would need 40 grams of distilled water. You can convert to ml, oz, tablespoons or cups. 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup or 1.5 oz) honey needs 6 oz distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_.of_measures/honey_measurements.html
According to reports posted in this thread, better results were achieved with the new dilution in 1 hour, than with repeated treatments using other dilutions. Different honeys produce different levels of peroxide. Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin
If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

2. Distilled water is recommended to be used for honey lightening in place of plain water. It is a better choice, for getting the best results from a honey lightening recipe because of its pH (7) and hydrogen peroxide can decompose in contact with certain minerals. More information on distilled water can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=146265&postcount=1173

3. The honey lightening boosters - ingredients that add extra peroxide to the recipes are; ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil.
Spices can be irritating - less is more with the new dilution - start with 1 tablespoon after patch testing - suggested maximum - 2 tablespoons.
Information on ground cinnamon can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160845&postcount=1314
Information on ground cardamom can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164193&postcount=1373
Oils can be difficult to wash out of the hair - suggested amount - 1 tablespoon.
None of the peroxide containing ingredients in the honey lightening recipes, including the honey and ground cinnamon, has been reported to add colour to the hair.

4. Distilled water used with honey lightening should be room temperature only. Do not add spices to a recipe after you have applied the recipe to your hair - if any dry spice spills - you risk skin irritation - mix the spices into a recipe. The spices will blend better, mixed into water, when the honey is added first.

5. No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883
Store your honey, ground spices and oils away from heat, light and moisture, at room temperature, in a cupboard, preferably.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=166458&postcount=1452

6. No ingredients that contain Vitamin C, (except ground cardamom, which has the highest peroxide value for a spice and a low Vitamin C level), should be used in the recipes. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C and is depleted in doing so. Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys. Most honeys contain very low levels. Here is a list of ingredients that contain Vitamin C.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=83009&postcount=429

7. Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

8. Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner can be too acidic for most honeys, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90&#37; water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, can be acidic and can contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinsing it out. If there is honey residue, shampoo and or a vinegar rinse is recommended and has been reported to easily resolve the problem.

9. The honey lightening recipes can be applied with a tint or blush brush for more control of placement.

10. Mix the honey lightening recipe, at room temperature, and let the recipe sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to let the honey produce peroxide or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair. The hair should be freshly washed or rinsed first, if there is aloe gel on the hair (aloe gel contains Vitamin C), a Vitamin C containing leave-in treatment, heavy conditioner, a large amount of oil (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water), or styling products on the hair. If not, a honey lightening treatment can also be applied to wet or dry, unwashed hair. Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended.

11. Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair even after repeated use, over long periods of time. What has been reported occasionally is dry hair and crunchy ends. That is a honey residue result, and can easily be resolved by shampooing preferably, or a vinegar rinse. The effects are temporary when shampoo and/or vinegar are used, with shampoo being reported to work better than a vinegar rinse. Some honeys leave fewer residues than others. More on honey lightening, and research on the protective mechanisms in honey lightening recipe ingredients, can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=127314&postcount=1035

12. This is the updated Pictures Post of some past and current Honey thread, honey lightening results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095 (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095)

ktani
October 7th, 2008, 12:48 PM
Henna Constituents
"Dried, powdered leaves of henna contain .... 0.5 to 1.5 percent lawsone .... chief constituent responsible for the dyeing properties of the plant ...."
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/med-aro/factsheets/henna.html

Henna resin content - Bureau of Plant Industry - Manilla
".... the leaves also contain about 2 per cent of a resin."
http://www.bpi.da.gov.ph/Publications/mp/pdf/s/sinamono.pdf

Cassia Chemistry
".... Other constituents in senna include chrysophanic acid salicylic acid, saponin, resin, mannitol .... and trace amounts of volatile oil."
http://www.drugs.com/npp/senna.html

The resins in both henna and casia senna wash out over time but may explain in part why both can leave the hair stiff and dry just after use.

ktani
October 7th, 2008, 02:28 PM
An index of honey lightening topics, coconut oil and conventional peroxide/bleach and pictures of honey lightening results.

Honey lightening basics
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=237414&postcount=1964

A one post summary of the new honey lightening recommendations,
with explanations and links. It is in my signature too.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

A breakdown of the above link
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179252&postcount=1628

How often can honey lightening be done? Is it damaging to hair?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=287574&postcount=2323

Choosing a honey and honey lightening boosters. What are honey lightening boosters?
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295895&postcount=2370

How pH affects honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=282315&postcount=2296

Honey lightening on hennaed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=290516&postcount=2339

Honey lightening on henndigoed hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291759&postcount=2341

Honey lightening and red tones
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291213&postcount=2340

Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291820&postcount=2342

Vegan lightening recipes (no honey)
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=289520&postcount=2334

3 things reported to discolour hair and how honey lightening can help
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=294952&postcount=2364

Protecting hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage - coconut oil used a pre treatment
has been reported to be effective. See page 3, Post 28 onward.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

Where to buy distilled water in different countries
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=295887&postcount=2369


How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
October 8th, 2008, 06:45 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
October 8th, 2008, 07:04 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin)

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, chestnut, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266).

Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are: ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

Pure evoo (not a blend of evoo and olive oil), has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Ground cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382).

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
October 8th, 2008, 01:13 PM
Suggestions for doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommended). Also recommended, is to use saran wrap under a lycra swim cap. It does not squeeze out too much water and the treatment does not drip as much with this method.

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
October 8th, 2008, 01:41 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
October 8th, 2008, 02:33 PM
I set up the first post of this thread with recent links, so no one has to read the entire thread to be up to date.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

ktani
October 9th, 2008, 06:27 AM
Storing honey lightening ingredients

Honey
"Store honey at room temperature with .... lid on tightly."
http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57 (http://www.honeybeecentre.com/qs/page/4992/4983/57)

Ground spices
"Ground spices will keep .... 1 year .... Spices should be kept away from the heat, light and humidity .... prevent flavor and color loss." http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf (http://clark.wsu.edu/family/General-food-safety/CleaningOutKitchenCupboard.pdf)

Coconut oil
"Coconut oil is extremely stable .... can be kept at room temperature .... many months."
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/oil/coconut.html (http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/products/oil/coconut.html)

Extra Virgin Olive Oil
"Olive oil connoisseurs recommend storing .... extra-virgin olive oils at room temperature."
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm (http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works3.htm)

Water
Store .... water .... in a cool, dark place.
Replace water every six months."
http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/info.asp?page=2839

Opened water
"To minimize exposure to bacteria, open a container just before use and then refrigerate it .... If no refrigeration .... available, keep the container up high, away from children and pets.
Direct heat and light .... slowly damage plastic containers resulting in eventual leakage .... they should be stored in a dark, cool and dry place.
Water can also be stored in a freezer."
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/SS439

ktani
October 9th, 2008, 07:31 AM
Honey wound healing and scarring 2008
(This pdf has duplicate text for some unknown reason.)

"Honey .... leaves infected wounds very clean, because .... ability to break down the "biofilm" found in many wounds. .... also has anti-inflammatory properties, reducing pain .... also can reduce scarring.

.... Professor Peter Molan, who heads the Honey Research Unit at the University of Waikato. Molan, a biochemist, .... researching the properties of honey for about 23 years. .... anti-bacterial properties were particularly high in manuka honey, from New Zealand. .... high levels have since been discovered in honey produced from other plants of the Leptospermum species ....

.... Molan ....continuing to investigate the properties of honey and .... how it activates the protein-digesting enzymes in wound tissues .... he believes are responsible for honey leaving wounds so clean, without damaging the surrounding skin.

His own recent .... with plastic surgery .... moles were removed from his hand, allowed Molan to test honey's scar prevention properties.
"My plastic surgeon warned me that I would have a scar. I put a honey dressing on straight away afterwards and kept it on for about a week afterwards and there's not a mark left there now. I had an information sheet on how to deal with the pain, but I had no pain."
http://www.louthbeekeepers.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=31

ktani
October 9th, 2008, 03:18 PM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral contentand honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
October 9th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, recipes and methods used, even on baq henna.


Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of he hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
October 10th, 2008, 06:06 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.


Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
October 11th, 2008, 08:11 AM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1)

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes because they reduce the chances of a positive result by reducing the amount of peroxide produced in a recipe.

Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel contains about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
October 12th, 2008, 06:41 AM
As the cold and flu season approaches, here is a very short update on honey used to help coughs, including the important warning not to give honey to children under 1 year of age.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/honey/AN01799

And here is a 24 hour cold chaser remedy. It does not contain honey but it is all natural. I have not tried it yet myself (no colds), but I did recommend it to someone who reported back that it did help.

Equal parts cinnamon, sage and bay leaf. Use 1 tsp of the mix to 1 cup boiled water. Drink one cup of the remedy every hour. It is supposed to get rid of a cold in 24 hours.

Large quantities of cassia cinnamon and sage are not recommended for long term use, but this remedy is "short and sweet" in terms of duration. http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/8500



The following information was posted earlier in this thread.

Cassia cinnamon and coumarins

"All of the powdered cinnamon ... in supermarkets in the United States ... actually Cassia.
European health agencies have recently warned against consuming high amounts of cassia, due to ... toxic component .... Coumarin .... known to cause liver and kidney damage in high concentrations. True Ceylon cinnamon has negligible amounts of Coumarin."
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm

"Consumers may take in larger amounts of coumarin from cosmetics ....
.... Federal Institute for Risk Assessment recommends reducing total intake
natural .... coumarin, can cause liver damage in highly sensitive individuals. .... the effect can be reversed once coumarin intake is halted. .... found in woodruff and sweet clover and .... higher levels in cassia cinnamon .... synthetically produced coumarin .... added as a fragrance to cosmetics and can reach the body through the skin. The Federal Institute for Risk Assessment .... has evaluated the analytical results .... to assess the scale on which cosmetics contribute to consumer exposure to coumarin. .... result: consumers could already exceed the tolerable daily intake ... of coumarin just by using cosmetics with high coumarin levels."
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cd/10569

"Frequently asked questions about coumarin in cinnamon and other foods"
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf

According to the author, in Germany, coumarin in any type of food is limited to 2 parts per million. See "Main constituents"
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_cas.html



I have posted this information elsewhere on the boards.

Sage safety
".... can be toxic when used in excess or when taken for extended periods ...."
http://www.pfaf.org/database/plants.php?Salvia+officinalis

"European Medicines Agency Evaluation of Medicines for Human Use" on sage, 2009
http://www.emea.europa.eu/pdfs/human/hmpc/salviae_folium/33165308en.pdf

ktani
October 12th, 2008, 08:04 AM
How to tell cassia cinnamon and true cinnamon apart

The link below on Ceylon cinnamon has pictures and details. The link that they ask people to click on does not say that Germany banned imports of cassia cinnamon. It may have been true at one time. However, the other information as far as I can determine is both very helpful and accurate.

I think that I could now tell the 2 apart if I were to see the products in stick form. In powder form, that would be more difficult.
From previous research, true cinnamon oil has the same constituent that cassia cinnamon oil does and it is considered to be an irritant too.

The coumarin content amounts are significantly different.
http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm


I edited the previous post to include the link below and I am repeating it here.

"Frequently asked questions about coumarin in cinnamon and other foods"
http://www.bfr.bund.de/cm/279/frequently_asked_questions_about_coumarin_in_cinna mon_and_other_foods.pdf

ktani
October 12th, 2008, 02:20 PM
I think that honey lightening recipes with ground (powdered) cinnamon are safe to use but I would alternate them with other recipes, not to get too much coumarin at one time, or too often (unless Ceylon cinnamon (http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm) is available). The recommended maximum is 2 tablespoons ground cinnamon per treatment. I suggest alternating using just honey and distilled water or honey and cardamom and distilled water (coconut oil and evoo are optional).

Cassia cinnamon colour range
"Cassia bark is peeled from stems and branches and set aside to dry. Some varieties are scraped. While drying, the bark curls into quills. The colour varies from light reddish brown for the thin, scraped bark to gray for the thick, unscraped bark. Ground cassia is reddish brown in colour. ..."
http://www.cookbook.hu/angol_receptek/cinnamon.html

"Indonesian cinnamon, in contrast, is much thicker ... and therefore less easy to break. The quills are outside reddish-brown, similar to Ceylon cinnamon, but the inner side of the bark is much darker gray-brown."
http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Cinn_bur.html

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom can be skin sensitizers. Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon and has a higher peroxide value. Patch test before using either spice.

Cardamom (http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/CardamomSeed.htm)

It really depends on the frequency of one's honey lightening routine and preferred recipe.

Even though I have posted about the ground cassia cinnamon, coumarin connection before, it is always good IMO, to review research (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380) again.

Overuse of ground cassia cinnamon is not recommended.

ktani
October 12th, 2008, 06:52 PM
More on coumarin and natural sources, including oils, Updated Jan. 2008
http://www.leffingwell.com/Coumarin&#37;20-%20the%20real%20story%20update2.pdf

"Herbs thought to contain coumarin or coumarin derivatives"
http://books.google.ca/books?id=ihxyHbnj3qYC&pg=PA27&lpg=PA27&dq=coumarin+herbs&source=web&ots=i6SJ4Vifp9&sig=WWZdK9uOJvqHqxmVK65cUcvkmw0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

Chamomile and coumarin
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6R-4SCDB5V-5&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1328aa635d87bd650d891d4ad3ec9b67

Chamomile oil extract and coumarin
http://books.google.ca/books?id=pc7X8Aj_2jUC&pg=PA257&lpg=PA257&dq=chamomile+coumarin&source=web&ots=TMJOh2MWE-&sig=-TM3n7NA3piFpi7wcssesxWY7Lw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result

Chamomile flowers and coumarin
http://books.google.ca/books?id=pc7X8Aj_2jUC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=chamomile+flowers+coumarin&source=web&ots=TMJOh2NYDW&sig=x2OQla_TGTxuwTgRgQwykPTkoJk&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

ktani
October 13th, 2008, 06:49 AM
European Food Safety Authority Coumarin update, July 2008
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/cs/BlobServer/Scientific_Opinion/afc_op_ej793_coumarin2008_op_en,3.pdf?ssbinary=tru e

ktani
October 13th, 2008, 07:50 AM
For me, the coumarin information has affected how much cassia cinnamon I consume. I no longer put it on my cereal every day.

I also check out cosmetic labels. Yes, it is in one or 2 products I use.

Again, it comes down to frequency and amounts. From all of the research, any liver damage is reversible, upon discontinuing the courmarin source(s) and some people are more sensitive to it than others.

I think that it is good to be aware of it, so that one can assess one's total exposure.

My purpose in posting about it is not to scare people, just to inform.

Coumarin is naturally present in a number of foods and plants and is used in cosmetics. It is absorbed through the skin.

It is about total exposure from combined sources that can pose a risk to health, that fortunately, is not necessarily permanent.

ktani
October 13th, 2008, 11:28 AM
I have added the cinnamon caution to the first post of this thread, and others.

I feel that the caution is timely, given the holidays coming up, and more cinnamon laden foods and treats, that are traditionally prepared at those times.

If I do get a cold, I have the ingredients stored, to try the 24 hour cold chaser remedy.

ktani
October 13th, 2008, 04:41 PM
According to P&G, most of the damage caused by conventional hair colour is from the high pH and free radicals, 2 things absent with honey lightening.

"Current permanent color uses .... combination of hydrogen peroxide, ammonia and a high pH .... removes up to 99 percent of the protective, lubricious .... layer of .... hair's surface. This causes irreversible physiochemical changes .... result in dryness, dullness and increased susceptibility to mechanical stress. .... majority of this damage is caused by a very high pH (10-11) and the HO* radical .... undesired by-product of the peroxide lightening system."
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/breakthroughs-xiii.html

Hydrogen peroxide is a weak acid, altered to make it alkaline (ammonia or another alkaline chemical is added to developers with peroxide) and open the cuticle, for hair colouring and bleaching.
http://books.google.ca/books?id=OCNo0byYC_wC&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=why+is+ammonia+added+to+peroxide+for+hair+light ening&source=web&ots=l0ZMwhUjvZ&sig=vPpO6FuRS4Y2Qc9fgX6Gts6Es7w&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=10&ct=result

The peroxide remains acid in honey lightening and the free radicals are prevented by the protective flavonoids in honey and the honey lightening recipe ingredients.

Chelants used either as a pre treatment with hair colour applied over it, or added to peroxide/bleach itself, help prevent hair damage. I think that more of the damage is caused by the free radicals, than the pH, and that kind of damage can be prevented.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=238824&postcount=11

Coconut oil, used as a pre treatment before hair colouring, with the colour applied over it, has been reported to help prevent hair damage.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=265371&postcount=28

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=265434&postcount=30

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=285446&postcount=55

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=293745&postcount=72

Longlove
October 13th, 2008, 09:53 PM
Does using EVOO as a booster in this treatment "yellow" the hair as some people have reported when using it alone on hair?

And can EVOO safely be used with Cinnamon in the treatment?

I looooved the way my hair smelled last time I included Cinnamon in the treatment. But it wasn't enough of a peroxide boost and my hair felt really dry. I'm hoping EVOO can boost and moisturize without the dreaded yellow.

Thanks!

ktani
October 14th, 2008, 04:14 AM
Does using EVOO as a booster in this treatment "yellow" the hair as some people have reported when using it alone on hair?

And can EVOO safely be used with Cinnamon in the treatment?

I looooved the way my hair smelled last time I included Cinnamon in the treatment. But it wasn't enough of a peroxide boost and my hair felt really dry. I'm hoping EVOO can boost and moisturize without the dreaded yellow.

Thanks!

None of the honey lightening ingredients, including EVOO, has been reported to add colour to the hair in a treatment.

If your hair felt dry, that is probably a honey residue result and it is best remedied with shampoo.

I do not understand your EVOO and cinnamon question. Please clarify.

ktani
October 14th, 2008, 02:02 PM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Longlove
October 14th, 2008, 03:51 PM
I do not understand your EVOO and cinnamon question. Please clarify.


Will using both cinnamon and EVOO at the same time give an even bigger "boost" to the lightening treatment?

Thanks

ktani
October 14th, 2008, 03:57 PM
Will using both cinnamon and EVOO at the same time give an even bigger "boost" to the lightening treatment?

Thanks

Yes, that is the idea. Each honey lightening booster has a peroxide value that contributes to the peroxide level of the recipe.

No damage to hair has been reported from any honey lightening recipe using any of the boosters, in varying quantities, in combinations or singly, in addition to honey.

ktani
October 14th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
October 14th, 2008, 04:07 PM
For vegans who are opposed to using honey, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).

ktani
October 14th, 2008, 07:22 PM
How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
October 15th, 2008, 05:02 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
October 15th, 2008, 05:15 AM
Conditioner is no longer recommended to be included in honey lightening recipes. Conditioner is too acidic for most honeys and the spices, (it can reduce the optimal pH needed for a honey to produce peroxide), can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, and its water content (most conditioners are 70-90&#37; water), if used as part of the new dilution, can effectively reduce the amount of water needed. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they contain minerals, are acidic and contain Vitamin C, as well as not enough water). You can use conditioner only, to wash out a honey lightening treatment, instead of using shampoo or just rinse a treatment out.

ktani
October 15th, 2008, 06:13 AM
No external heat should be used with honey lightening - no blow dryers, sunlight. None of the recipe ingredients should be heated at any time. Heat (except body heat) can destroy hydrogen peroxide. The peroxide can decompose into water and oxygen. It depends on the degree of heat and the amount of time that it is applied. Pasteurization does not destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119678&postcount=883

plainjanegirl
October 15th, 2008, 08:00 AM
For vegans who are opposed to using honey, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).


I'm not against using honey but I didn't know if you thought these do a better or quicker job of lightening the hair color?
You can see some pics of my loose hair in my photo album, do you think I could get alot of lightening?
I used the proper honey mixture a few times ( this has been a few months ago) but it seems like the lightening was only in parts...it cause it to look like I have highlights or something. And i was wanting an all over lightening. Trust me all the hair was saturated.
Any ideas??

ktani
October 15th, 2008, 08:14 AM
I'm not against using honey but I didn't know if you thought these do a better or quicker job of lightening the hair color?
You can see some pics of my loose hair in my photo album, do you think I could get alot of lightening?
I used the proper honey mixture a few times ( this has been a few months ago) but it seems like the lightening was only in parts...it cause it to look like I have highlights or something. And i was wanting an all over lightening. Trust me all the hair was saturated.
Any ideas??
The honey lightening boosters do not indivdually have a higher peroxide level than most honeys can have. I created the vegan recipes for those who want to lighten without honey. I think that with honey, the results will be better.

As for your results, I believe you when you say that the hair was fully saturated. I cannot predict how much lightening one can achieve. It depends on your hair and what is on it.

I believe that the post linked here, was the last time you posted and I responded. You were using water that contained minerals (spring water), which depletes peroxide and the last method that you mentioned using I have no doubt, caused your hair to lighten unevenly (the towel instead of plastic, to cover your hair and keep it very wet). http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=225819&postcount=1892

Here are some things to review for current and future honey lightening treatments: You may need to try a different honey; Are you applying the treatment to hair that has no residue or leave-in, like aloe gel, which contains Vitamin C?; The new dilution, what are you using? 2 tablespoons of honey needs 6 oz or 12 tablespoons of distilled water, for example; Are you using distilled or deionized water, both of which contain no minerals? Distilled is recommended; Are you applying the solution evenly?; Are you covering your hair securely with plastic or an equivalent? A swim cap is recommended to keep all of the hair very wet while covered; You can add any of the honey lightening boosters to a recipe for added peroxide.

ktani
October 15th, 2008, 11:52 AM
Distilled water and honey lightening.

1. Distilled water is the water used in testing a honey for its peroxide value. See " Technical performance:"
"Distilled water .... used "
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html

2. "Hydrogen peroxide .... decomposes .... in contact with salts such as iron, copper, manganese, nickel, or chromium."
http://web1.caryacademy.org/chemistry/rushin/StudentProjects/CompoundWebSites/2000/HydrogenPeroxide/home.htm

The mineral content and pH of tap water can be a problem for honey lightening. Distilled water, with its lack of minerals and pH 7, is a much better choice for honey lightening.

Types of purified water See "Distilled water"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water

Deioized water can be used as an alternate water.

Both spring and most filtered waters contain minerals and are not recommended.

ktani
October 15th, 2008, 04:07 PM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 06:03 AM
How long is a honey lightening batch (recipe) potent?

There is no time frame on that but I think that a batch should be usable within a day or so.

I recommend making a fresh batch each time and not keeping batches for several days, even if refridgerated.

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 06:38 AM
It has come up more than once, that people have used something absorbant to cover a honey lightening treatment, a towel, in cases posted, and in those cases, the results were less than desired, although some lightening occurred.

A towel or any absorbant material, will absorb the needed moisture from the treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

All of the hair needs to be very wet, uniformly so, both before and while covered during honey lightening (unless a specific area is designated for lightening, like roots which need to be kept wet, while the rest of the hair can be dry).

If misting the hair is done, it needs to be constant, so that none of the hair starts to dry. Hair closest to the roots will dry first because of body heat.

A swim cap IMO, is the best option to keep the hair wet and is the most secure.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

Plastic bags have been reported to slip allowing the hair to dry and shower caps have been reported to be too loose, also allowing hair to dry. Shower caps are designed to keep the hair dry but are not as secure as swim caps, for keeping hair wet.

I do recommend that towels be used during honey lightening, worn around the neck to catch any drips. Towels or any extra coverings are not necessary to be worn over a plastic covering, because extra body heat is not central to a honey lighteing treatment being successful. Wet hair is essential. Hats worn over shower caps, have been reported to help make them more secure.

The right water, preferably distilled (deionized works too), a good peroxide producing honey and the right method for keeping the hair wet, can make all of the difference in honey lightening results. Honey lightening boosters are optional but they have been reported to be great additions to a recipe, in terms of results.

plainjanegirl
October 16th, 2008, 08:01 AM
Let me explain here that I had done the honey thing more than once. Yes the last time I just did the towel thing. But before that I had done it using a shower cap...no not a swim cap because I have not found one. Because I did have some lightening but then later it seemed like it was only in spots like highlights. Now I do remember in this thread that somebody had I think done a honey treatment on their daughter and just left the hair down and kept spraying it with the honey mix keeping it wet ... so that might be something to try for anybody who does not have a swim cap. I am just leery of trying again cause I want some more all over lightening.

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 08:07 AM
Let me explain here that I had done the honey thing more than once. Yes the last time I just did the towel thing. But before that I had done it using a shower cap...no not a swim cap because I have not found one. Because I did have some lightening but then later it seemed like it was only in spots like highlights. Now I do remember in this thread that somebody had I think done a honey treatment on their daughter and just left the hair down and kept spraying it with the honey mix keeping it wet ... so that might be something to try for anybody who does not have a swim cap. I am just leery of trying again cause I want some more all over lightening.

Several people have used the misting method for honey lightening. It is the same principal. The hair needs to be kept wet, very wet during honey lightening.

Using plastic or a swim cap is just more convenient and less potentially messy.

The right water has been reported to make a significant difference too, in terms of results. It is much better to use a water that is mineral free and the best reported results have been when that has been used, distilled water in particular (deionized works too).

You reported using spring water with your honey lightening. As I have said, spring water contains minerals. Minerals can deplete the peroxide in a honey lightening recipe.

plainjanegirl
October 16th, 2008, 08:23 AM
Several people have used the misting method for honey lightening. It is the same principal. The hair needs to be kept wet, very wet during honey lightening.

Using plastic or a swim cap is just more convenient and less potentially messy.

The right water has been reported to make a significant difference too, in terms of results. It is much better to use a water that is mineral free and the best reported results have been when that has been used, distilled water in particular (deionized works too).

You reported using spring water with your honey lightening. As I have said, spring water contains minerals. Minerals can deplete the peroxide in a honey lightening recipe.


But if somebody didn't have distilled water on hand....any water will work cause I still got lightening. Next time I will take before and after pics and I should try my regular well water and see what it does.

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 08:26 AM
But if somebody didn't have distilled water on hand....any water will work cause I still got lightening. Next time I will take before and after pics and I should try my regular well water and see what it does.

Yes, any water will dilute honey but the difference is in the results.

Well water is noted for having a high mineral content.

Your reported results so far, do not support either the spring water you have posted that you have been using, or the methods you have used to cover your hair.

Much better results have been reported with mineral free water and keeping the hair very wet during honey lightening and I have posted the research to support not using a water with minerals in it. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=303236&postcount=2401

You say that you want more and better honey lightening results. You have asked for ideas.

I am just trying to help you achieve what you say you want from honey lightening. You apparently are resistant to the ideas you ask for, even though I have explained the reasoning behind them, quoted research and explained that others have reported much better results than you have achieved, when those ideas have been used.

Good luck.

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 09:04 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution (4 x the amount of water (distilled recommended), to honey by weight). You can also use tablespoons. 1 tablespoon honey requires 6 tablespoons distilled water.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - the new dilution with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

melikai - on previously hi-lighted hair - the new dilution, with distilled water and 1 tablespoon ground cardamom, after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249224&postcount=2055

melikai - recipe and the condition of her hair after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=249249&postcount=2060

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 09:24 AM
Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635

Alley Cat - on chemically dyed, almost black, previously hennaed hair (which shows as red) - 4 to 1 dilution - after 9 treatments - 8 with no conditioner - 3 with ground cinnamon - the last 5 with just water and honey, the 3 most recent with distilled water and the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=167875&postcount=1492

Aley Cat - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=168110&postcount=1495

Alley Cat - more on the condition of her hair following her 9th honey lightening treatment - which was with Jarrah honey, which has a very high peroxide value
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=176704&postcount=1596

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 09:28 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

Some tap waters have been reported to work well with honey lightening but they are the exceptions not the rule.

Distilled water is still the one I recommend over any other.

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 09:30 AM
Information on swim caps.

Speedo swim cap for long hair
http://www.swimoutlet.com/product_p/3620.htm

LHC swim cap thread
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=8562

A swim cap guide
http://www.geocities.com/lapswimr/scg.html

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 03:01 PM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 03:03 PM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 04:50 PM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with hydrogen peroxide and can deplete peroxide levels.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ktani
October 16th, 2008, 06:03 PM
For vegans who are opposed to using honey, a mix can be made using distilled water, ground cinnamon or ground cardamon (patch test both) and either coconut or extra virgin olive oil (the honey lightening recipe boosters, each one adds extra peroxide). The honey lightening boosters do not indivdually have a higher peroxide level than most honeys can have.

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic. The new dilution and distilled water with its pH of 7, has been reported to more effective with the spices than previous dilutions. Like honey, less spice with the new dilution, has been reported to be more effective, than more spice at lower dilutions.

Cinnamon caution http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

All of these ingredients have the same or similar (coconut oil contains gallic acid) protective flavonoids as honey. Coconut oil has been reported as a pre treatment, with colour applied over it, to help protect hair from conventional higher level, peroxide hair colour damage, and the flavonoid chemical equivalents were found in P & G research, to help protect hair from conventional peroxide/bleach damage, used the same way. In other research, the same flavonoids were found to protect cells from conventional peroxide damage. No damage to hair has been reported from any of the honey lightening boosters.

A recipe can be

1 tablespoon ground cinnamon or ground cardamom, 1/2 tablespoon of coconut oil or evoo and 6 tablespoons = 3 oz distilled water,

or

2 tablespoons, 1 of ground cinnamon, the other ground cardamon, 1 tablespoon evoo or coconut oil and 12 tablespoons = 6 oz distilled water.

Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon as has a higher peroxide level.

Extra virgin olive oil has a higher peroxide level than coconut oil.

The oil will do 3 things.

1. add extra peroxide to the recipe

2. help the spice stick to the hair better than distilled water alone

3. add extra conditiong to the mix

The mix can be shaken, not stirred, lol (a little 007 lightening humour). All other honey lightening guidelines apply (no added heat, the hair needs to be kept very wet with the treatment before and while covered (a swim cap is recommended), and the recommended treatment time is 1 hour).

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 08:24 AM
Jarrah honey is known to have a very high peroxide value.

“WA scientists claim jarrah honey benefit
Manuka honey .... New Zealand honey .... peroxide levels of about 18 per cent on average .... But we’re finding peroxide levels 54 per cent higher, with an average of about 28 per cent .... a very big increase ...."
http://www.beelinehoney.com.au/Jarrah.pdf

see "Comparing Different Types of Honey" - date 2008
" .... Jarrah honey .... contains higher amounts of glucose oxidase .... "
http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nem175

Glucose oxidase is the enzyme in honey that produces hydrogen peroxide.

Jarrah honey suppliers I found and contacted - prices and shipping costs vary as will stock amounts. There are no doubt more suppliers out there - this to start you off. As more are reported, I will add them to this list.

International shipping will be noted with an asterisk *.

*1. Their price list and they report Jarrah honey in stock. They do ship internationally.
Prices
http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/price-list.html)
Contact page
http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html (http://www.beesneez.com.au/contact.html)

*2. Yes to Jarrah honey in stock and they ship internationally. This one seems to be fast on replies to inquiries.
Contact page
http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/aboutus.htm)
Order page with prices
http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm (http://www.beehappy.com.au/orderform.htm)

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 09:19 AM
This is very interesting, IMO.

"APIMEDICA Presentation: Honey and Helicobacter Pylori - 2006

* Honey varieties higher in hydrogen peroxide content .... more effective in killing Helicobacter pylori .... compared to honey varieties with lower levels of hydrogen peroxide.

* Thyme honey, with its low pH and high osmolarity .... most effective in eliminating in vitro Helicobacter pylori."
http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2006/10/apimedica-presentation-honey-and.html

Osmolarity definition
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/osmolality (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/osmolality)

Thyme honey, because of its Vitamin C content, has a lower peroxide value than other honeys, and is not recommendd for honey lightening but it has been shown to be effective against H. - the other named factors - its acidity and osmolarity obviously have great significance.

"Osmotic effect of honey on growth and viability of Helicobacter pylori
Honey from New Zealand and Saudi Arabia at concentrations .... 20&#37; (v/v) inhibit the growth of H. pylori in vitro. .... anti-H. pylori effect involves both hydrogen peroxide- and non-peroxide-mediated killing mechanisms.
Osmotic effects .... shown to be the most important parameter for killing H. pylori .... inhibited 100% of the H. pylori."
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1718741

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 09:22 AM
Something interesting in this link

"* Ulcers can be treated at a low cost by thyme honey .... difficult to maintain a high concentration of honey at the gastric mucosa .... extended periods."
http://apitherapy.blogspot.com/2006/10/apimedica-presentation-honey-and.html

may have and answer from this link

"UMF Active Manuka to treat H. pylori
Research .... by world honey expert Dr Peter Molan .... Waikato University Honey Research Centre .... good results ....
eating 20g (a heaped teaspoon) of Active Manuka Honey on a small square of bread one hour before meals .... (The bread was added to ensure the honey stayed in the stomach for longer periods)"
http://www.honeybalm.com/article/36

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 09:23 AM
While honey is not a guarateed cure at this point - the standard treatment currently is various strong antibiotic cocktails which can require experimentation to get right - I do not think honey can hurt and from the research it may be very helpful.

I am not in any way suggesting that honey should be used to replace standard conventional medical therapy.

Always consult your doctor before attempting to self medicate, IMO.

Thyme honey can be purchased here for as little as $12 USD, as well as in food stores.
http://www.artisansweets.com/category/s

They ship internationally.
http://www.artisansweets.com/customer_service (http://www.artisansweets.com/customer_service)

and it is cheaper than UMF manuka honey, which is the only one guaranteed by New Zealand, to have the Unique Manuka Factor.

UMF Manuka honey can be purchased at health food stores or ordered online.

In Toronto, thyme honey can be purchased at

Greek House Food Market
565 DANFORTH AVE, TORONTO, ON M4K 1P9
in between Fenwick & Carlaw
(Cross Street: Carlaw AVE and Danforth AVE)
Phone: 416-469-1466 Thyme honey in jars, $13.99 ea

Note: Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys for honey lightening. Most honeys contain very low levels.

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 09:47 AM
Honey wound healing and scarring 2008
(This pdf has duplicate text for some unknown reason.)

"Honey .... leaves infected wounds very clean, because .... ability to break down the "biofilm" found in many wounds. .... also has anti-inflammatory properties, reducing pain .... also can reduce scarring.

.... Professor Peter Molan, who heads the Honey Research Unit at the University of Waikato. Molan, a biochemist, .... researching the properties of honey for about 23 years. .... anti-bacterial properties were particularly high in manuka honey, from New Zealand. .... high levels have since been discovered in honey produced from other plants of the Leptospermum species ....

.... Molan ....continuing to investigate the properties of honey and .... how it activates the protein-digesting enzymes in wound tissues .... he believes are responsible for honey leaving wounds so clean, without damaging the surrounding skin.

His own recent .... with plastic surgery .... moles were removed from his hand, allowed Molan to test honey's scar prevention properties.
"My plastic surgeon warned me that I would have a scar. I put a honey dressing on straight away afterwards and kept it on for about a week afterwards and there's not a mark left there now. I had an information sheet on how to deal with the pain, but I had no pain."
http://www.louthbeekeepers.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=31

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

Heidi_234
October 17th, 2008, 01:56 PM
ktani, you're the Honey Guru around here, so I have a question:
Can I incorporate the honey lightening method with my henna treatment?
I mean, I do henna once a month, and I want to lighten my hair towards the ends. Since either treatment I sit around for an hour or with a cap on my head, why can't I include the honey dilution some way in my henna, and kill two birds with one shot?
Is it possible, or something there can kill the peroxides? I mean, I don't include acidic liquid in the recipe usually, and actually beside water anything else in henna is optional, so I can skip those ingredients that get in a way of successful honey lightening.

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 02:14 PM
ktani, you're the Honey Guru around here, so I have a question:
Can I incorporate the honey lightening method with my henna treatment?
I mean, I do henna once a month, and I want to lighten my hair towards the ends. Since either treatment I sit around for an hour or with a cap on my head, why can't I include the honey dilution some way in my henna, and kill two birds with one shot?
Is it possible, or something there can kill the peroxides? I mean, I don't include acidic liquid in the recipe usually, and actually beside water anything else in henna is optional, so I can skip those ingredients that get in a way of successful honey lightening.

Interesting question. Henna is naturally acidic. You would need to have more distilled water to henna. In other words, you could add henna to a honey lightening treatment but not as much henna as you would necessarily use on its own.

The new dilution works so well in part because of the pH of the solution IMO. The optimal pH for honey, which is acidic, to produce peroxide, is 6.

Most honeys on the market are more acidic than that and distilled water (pH 7) and the new dilution raises the pH of the treatment, even when the spice boosters (both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic) are used. From reports on honey lightening, less spice has been reported to yield better results with the new dilution, than more spice with previous dilutions, which called for less distilled water.

I am not sure that you would get the lightening you want, adding a honey lightening treatment to full strength (by amount) henna.

Heidi_234
October 17th, 2008, 02:52 PM
Interesting question. Henna is naturally acidic. You would need to have more distilled water to henna. In other words, you could add henna to a honey lightening treatment but not as much henna as you would necessarily use on its own.

The new dilution works so well in part because of the pH of the solution IMO. The optimal pH for honey, which is acidic, to produce peroxide, is 6.

Most honeys on the market are more acidic than that and distilled water (pH 7) and the new dilution raises the pH of the treatment, even when the spice boosters (both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom are acidic) are used. From reports on honey lightening, less spice has been reported to yield better results with the new dilution, than more spice with previous dilutions, which called for less distilled water.

I am not sure that you would get the lightening you want, adding a honey lightening treatment to full strength (by amount) henna.

Thank you for the detailed answer! I can clearly see the problem here.
I wonder if maybe there's a stronger alkaline factor than water that could rise the pH? I tried to google high pH foods/herbs, but it didn't made much sense to me (Aren't lemons supposed to be acidic?).

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 02:57 PM
Thank you for the detailed answer! I can clearly see the problem here.
I wonder if maybe there's a stronger alkaline factor than water that could rise the pH? I tried to google high pH foods/herbs, but it didn't made much sense to me (Aren't lemons supposed to be acidic?).

You are most welcome.

Alkalies can be tricky things to deal with. I do not know what effect they would have on the henna, depending on the chemical properties, or the hair's condition.

Yes, lemons are very acidic.

The PH scale
".... pH scale is logarithmic .... each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. .... example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6. .... true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline (another way to say basic) than the next lower whole value. .... example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than pH 8."
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html (http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html)

The pH of some foods
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html)

Heidi_234
October 17th, 2008, 03:14 PM
You are most welcome.

Alkalies can be tricky things to deal with. I do not know what effect they would have on the henna, depending on the pH, or the hair's condition and you still would need the honey to ideally be in a solutiion of pH 6.

Yes, lemons are very acidic.

The PH scale
".... pH scale is logarithmic .... each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. .... example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6. .... true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline (another way to say basic) than the next lower whole value. .... example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than pH 8."
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html (http://www.elmhurst.edu/%7Echm/vchembook/184ph.html)

The pH of some foods
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/lacf-phs.html (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/%7Ecomm/lacf-phs.html)

I studied this pH stuff in my chemistry class, but it's way more complicated in real life. I thought of the white of the egg, or baking soda, but now I see that he acidity or alkalinity level is not linear, hence makes it trickier to make out the right ratios for efficient peroxide release than to do both treatments separately.

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 03:19 PM
I studied this pH stuff in my chemistry class, but it's way more complicated in real life. I thought of the white of the egg, or baking soda, but now I see that he acidity or alkalinity level is not linear, hence makes it trickier to make out the right ratios for efficient peroxide release than to do both treatments separately.

I agree.

There is one consolation. With the new dilution and distilled water, a honey lightening treatment only needs to be left on the hair for 1 hour.

ktani
October 17th, 2008, 09:12 PM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 06:36 AM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.



Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 06:41 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 07:01 AM
I find this most interesting.

"So, it was the refined sugar fault!" .... from The Minnesota Beekeepers, Spring 1996, Minnesota Honey Producers Association, Inc., Originaly printed May 1955 - ABJ
Waugh a'nd Waugh (1940) studied the effects of natural and refined sugars on the mouth bacteria .... and caries development among primitive Eskimos. .... found that practically 100 percent of those free from caries in the group fed natural sugars (raisins dried figs, maple syrup, honey, dates) remained free from caries .... concluded that the Eskimo's natural sugars do not initiate or cause an increase in the growth of oral bacteria; neither do natural sugars initiate or cause an increase in dental cavities."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/hmf.html

And more recently

".... antimicrobial properties of honey could prove effective in arresting .... dental plaque bacteria believed to be responsible for dental caries .....
Research results from University of Waikato show .... honey can stop the growth of dental plaque bacteria ...."
http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Honey-curbs-bacteria-in-the-oral-cavity-1079-1/

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 07:08 AM
I am often asked "How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?" I cannot predict that but here are some pictures of honey lightening results.

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 07:34 AM
Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Spring and filtered waters still contain minerals, although they may have less of some impurities. Minerals can deplete the peroxide level of a honey lightening recipe.

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 07:49 AM
Kokuryu is the one who used a swim cap for her honey lightening and her results are part of the reason I now recommend using swim caps to cover honey lightening treatments, to keep the hair very wet. The other part is that people have reported plastic bags slipping and shower caps not being secure, except with a hat worn over them. If the hair dries during application, or while covered or uncovered during a treatment, any lightening will either stop, or not happen at all.

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content, and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

Kokuryu's comments after 2 treatments. She did not use the coconut oil in her 3rd treament.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments This treatment was done on wet hair.
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 08:33 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 10:01 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 10:02 AM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). You can use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded).

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 12:27 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.



Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
October 18th, 2008, 02:40 PM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ktani
October 19th, 2008, 05:21 AM
Honey lightening on hennaed hair

Henna results vary with the individual. There is the water chosen (tap vs distilled), the recipe (whether or not lemon juice is used in the mix), the quality of the henna (dye content, sift, crop year and age (stale henna), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

Honey lightening has its variables too in terms of results. There is the water chosen, the honey (peroxide level), the recipe (lemon juice or Viamin C in an ingredient, heat, UV, and minerals deplete peroxide), the method used, the frequency with which it is applied, and the hair of the individual.

However, honey lightening, using the new dilution, with a good peroxide producing honey, the right water (distilled or deionized), recipe, and method, has been reported to work on various types of henna, recipes and methods used, even on baq henna.

Pictures of honey lightening on hennaed hair

kimki - on hennaed hair - after 2 treatments, 1 with ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122653&postcount=958

kimki's recipe - This was before the new dilution, which has been reported to yield better results. Chamomile tea is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It can add gold tones to hair.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=122698&postcount=960

kimki - on the condition of he hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118101&postcount=822

My response to kimki's questions
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=118134&postcount=824

soleluna - on hennaed hair (baq Egyptian henna) - the new dilution - after 1 treatment - with distilled water and only 1 tsp ground cinnamon - no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164308&postcount=1375

soleluna - recipe details and the condition of her hair following honey lightening Note: the correct amount of honey used was 2 tablespoons - there was an error made in transcribing the recipe
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=164349&postcount=1377

LadyPolaris - on hennaed hair - after 4 treatments - with distilled water, ground cinnamon and EVOO - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following 4 honey lightening treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=180750&postcount=1651

ktani
October 19th, 2008, 07:13 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

1/8 cup is approximately 40 ml, 40 ml honey would require between 170 to 180 ml of distilled water. Exact measurements to the ml are not important, IMO, just close enough.

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair.
In tablespoons, it is 1 tablespoon honey to 6 tablespoons distilled water, 2 to 12, 3 to 18 etc. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.
20 grams of honey needs 80 grams of distilled water, 10 grams of honey needs 40 grams of distilled water etc.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

ktani
October 19th, 2008, 07:39 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
October 19th, 2008, 05:00 PM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 06:27 AM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

Conventional peroxide causes hair damage because of oxygen free radicals. Honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage, and the protectice flavonoids in honey and honey lightening recipe ingredients, prevent oxygen free radicals from forming.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 06:29 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 08:04 AM
Honey for just conditioning not lightening.

Honey slowly releases peroxide on dilution with fluids that constain water. This exempts oil. The operative word is slowly.

The time recommended for honey lightening with the new dilution, and distilled water, is 1 hour.

Using honey as a rinse and leaving it on the hair for 5 to 10 minutes, with tap water (which contains minerals in most cases and minerals deplete peroxide), should not cause any lightening of hair colour. If a rinse is left on the hair, as the hair dries, any peroxide production will cease.

Honey used undiluted as a leave-in on damp hair (the size of a pea is used for whole sections of hair) should not and has not been reported to lighten hair colour. There is not enough moisture in damp hair to dilute anything, much less honey.

Hair conditioners can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening, they have an acidic pH that will not contribute to more than gradual lightening at best in most cases, and have a water content from about 70 to 90&#37;. Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening but microwaving a honey/conditioner mix is recommended to eliminate the possibility of some lightening.

Using honey mixed with any Vitamin C containing ingredients, will deplete any peroxide produced. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in the process. Mixing honey with aloe vera gel, which contains 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice, is one way to lessen the chance of hair lightening, but again microwaving the mix is the best choice.

Microwaving a honey mix will destroy the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide. The microwaving time has been under some debate. I think the safest time is from 30 seconds to under 1 minute.

brok3nwings
October 20th, 2008, 08:36 AM
ktani this last research you did is really intersting as i had questioned myself why did heat should not be aplied in honey lightening as it is used with convensional peroxide.
I want to start again with this honey method, yesterday i did my mix with 1 part honey to 6 parts distilled water and half soap spoon ? (sorry i dont know the name) of cinnamon... the difference for what i used to do ( for my problem i told you in PM of dripping) is that i applied it with a tint brush on dry hair until my hair was wet but not dripping maddly.
i used to wet my hair too much and it was really annoying... i am thinking of trying next time to put the mix in a spray bottle. The brush is ok but i took about 15 min to wet all of my hair..the good thing is i can keep putting the mix during the one hour to my roots (thats the area i want to lighten more).
My honey is organic honey i bought from a health store but it doesnt tell what is the honey sourse...i believe that could leave me into a honey that has not enough peroxide values. I chose the darkest one i could find. i would like to use one that i knew it was good for this but here in Portugal most of the honey i find are from Portugal so the list wont help me with this.
i did not see any lightening but i believe that this is something that i will have to do for some time...
Being blonde makes my hair look dark and light during the day and it is a bit difficult for me to see it as it really changes with the light. I mean, it really changes!! but when i see a significant difference i will report it. Honey has helped me to take away some brassiness before so in some way it lightened my hair...

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 08:54 AM
ktani this last research you did is really intersting as i had questioned myself why did heat should not be aplied in honey lightening as it is used with convensional peroxide.
I want to start again with this honey method, yesterday i did my mix with 1 part honey to 6 parts distilled water and half soap spoon ? (sorry i dont know the name) of cinnamon... the difference for what i used to do ( for my problem i told you in PM of dripping) is that i applied it with a tint brush on dry hair until my hair was wet but not dripping maddly.
i used to wet my hair too much and it was really annoying... i am thinking of trying next time to put the mix in a spray bottle. The brush is ok but i took about 15 min to wet all of my hair..the good thing is i can keep putting the mix during the one hour to my roots (thats the area i want to lighten more).
My honey is organic honey i bought from a health store but it doesnt tell what is the honey sourse...i believe that could leave me into a honey that has not enough peroxide values. I chose the darkest one i could find. i would like to use one that i knew it was good for this but here in Portugal most of the honey i find are from Portugal so the list wont help me with this.
i did not see any lightening but i believe that this is something that i will have to do for some time...
Being blonde makes my hair look dark and light during the day and it is a bit difficult for me to see it as it really changes with the light. I mean, it really changes!! but when i see a significant difference i will report it. Honey has helped me to take away some brassiness before so in some way it lightened my hair...

Your recipe sounds fine. You could use the 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablspoons distilled water and add more cinnamon or ground cardamom, if you patch tested it and simply not use it all at once but over 2 days, if you wish.

Here is the roots only method for honey lightening.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=296249&postcount=2371

The last time we were in contact, you were thinking of ordering Jarrah honey. It has a high peroxide value. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

The other thing to consider is buying or using a swim cap for your honey lightening treatments. IMO, a swim cap is the best choice to keep a honey lightening treatment wet and secured while covered.

brok3nwings
October 20th, 2008, 09:03 AM
ktani is there swimming caps with other material then rubber? i havent used any for ages and i used to hate it cause it ripped my hair because they were made of rubber...
wet hair doesnt mean it has to be dripping like when you get out of the shower right? I made a bun and as it was only one hour it didnt dry or anything, i think it was wet when i went to the shower..
About the honey yes i want to do order so madly but i dont have my credit card yet, and when i do (about one month from now) i will have to register first at the Paypal and then wait for the order to come... so until then i only have the portuguese honey

plainjanegirl
October 20th, 2008, 09:05 AM
ktani this last research you did is really intersting as i had questioned myself why did heat should not be aplied in honey lightening as it is used with convensional peroxide.
I want to start again with this honey method, yesterday i did my mix with 1 part honey to 6 parts distilled water and half soap spoon ? (sorry i dont know the name) of cinnamon... the difference for what i used to do ( for my problem i told you in PM of dripping) is that i applied it with a tint brush on dry hair until my hair was wet but not dripping maddly.
i used to wet my hair too much and it was really annoying... i am thinking of trying next time to put the mix in a spray bottle. The brush is ok but i took about 15 min to wet all of my hair..the good thing is i can keep putting the mix during the one hour to my roots (thats the area i want to lighten more).
My honey is organic honey i bought from a health store but it doesnt tell what is the honey sourse...i believe that could leave me into a honey that has not enough peroxide values. I chose the darkest one i could find. i would like to use one that i knew it was good for this but here in Portugal most of the honey i find are from Portugal so the list wont help me with this.
i did not see any lightening but i believe that this is something that i will have to do for some time...
Being blonde makes my hair look dark and light during the day and it is a bit difficult for me to see it as it really changes with the light. I mean, it really changes!! but when i see a significant difference i will report it. Honey has helped me to take away some brassiness before so in some way it lightened my hair...


Let us all know how the honey lightening is going for you.
I would like to know how the spray method works if you try it next time.

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 09:12 AM
Kokuryu is the one who used a swim cap for her honey lightening and her results are part of the reason I now recommend using swim caps to cover honey lightening treatments, to keep the hair very wet. The other part is that people have reported plastic bags slipping and shower caps not being secure, except with a hat worn over them. If the hair dries during application, or while covered during a treatment, any lightening will either stop, or not happen at all.

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content, and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

Kokuryu's comments after 2 treatments. She did not use the coconut oil in her 3rd treament.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198483&postcount=1765

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments This treatment was done on wet hair.
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

kokuryu - on the condition of her hair after 3 treatments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202876&postcount=1801

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

brok3nwings
October 20th, 2008, 09:16 AM
i went to the portuguese supermarket online and searched for honey and the darkest one is made of heather and rosemary and here it is the image , tell me what you think

http://www.continente.pt/ProductDetailMain.aspx?productId=2098967&CategoryPath=12&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName=

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 09:25 AM
i went to the portuguese supermarket online and searched for honey and the darkest one is made of heather and rosemary and here it is the image , tell me what you think

http://www.continente.pt/ProductDetailMain.aspx?productId=2098967&CategoryPath=12&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName=


They both look dark but I have tried to explain the dark honeys before. It is in several posts.

".... - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys."

A dark coloured blend of honeys increases the odds, that if a single source honey does not produce much peroxide, the other honeys blended with it, will compensate for that.

I looked up the peroxide value of heather honey. It is reported to be good in general but there are differents kinds of heather. So is that of rosemary honey (there are different varieties of rosemary too). I would start with the heather honey, if you cannot find a dark coloured blend.

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 01:27 PM
Honey lightening and red tones

Regarding red tones and honey lightening, it depends on the starting hair colour (honey lightening has not been reported to add colour of its own to hair, even with ground cinnamon) but here are 2 results on virgin, mid brown hair, that went from brown to blonde, bypassing red altogether. The tap water used in the 2nd result IMO, had the right pH and a low mineral content. Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with distilled water - after 2 treatments - with ground cinnamon and booster oils - no conditioner and the condition of her hair following honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=160564&postcount=1299

Jan in ID - on mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution and distilled water - after 3 more treatments - with ground cinnamon and only 1/2 tblsp EVOO, no conditioner and the condition of her hair, after 5 treaments
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=191116&postcount=1721

HalcyonDays - on dark mid-brown virgin hair - with the new dilution using tap water - after 1 treatment - left on the hair for 2 hours - just water and honey. The lighting is dark in the before picture, so I requested a replacement picture.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179618&postcount=1633

HalcyonDays - on the condition of her hair following honey lightening and a replacement before picture
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=179696&postcount=1635


Honey lightening with ground cinnamon, has been reported to reduce brassiness and lighten unwanted red/gold tones, on blonde hair, even before the new dilution. With the new dilution, the recipe used by firebird, would require 12 tablespoons of distilled water, not 8.

firebird - honey lightening on a cassia treatment that had darkened her previously dyed hair, adding a red/gold tone - she used ground cinnamon and EVOO, no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=94944&postcount=489

A thread about cassia stained hair
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=13332

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 01:39 PM
It has come up more than once, that people have used something absorbant to cover a honey lightening treatment, a towel, in some cases posted, and in those cases, the results were less than desired, although some lightening occurred.

A towel or any absorbant material, will absorb the needed moisture from the treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

All of the hair needs to be very wet, uniformly so, both before and while covered during honey lightening (unless a specific area is designated for lightening, like roots).

A swim cap IMO, is the best option to keep the hair wet and is the most secure.

Plastic bags have been reported to slip allowing the hair to dry and shower caps have been reported to be too loose, also allowing hair to dry. Shower caps are designed to keep the hair dry but are not as secure as swim caps, for keeping hair wet.

I do recommend that towels be used during honey lightening, worn around the neck to catch any drips. Towels or any extra coverings are not necessary to be worn over a plastic covering, because extra body heat is not central to a honey lighteing treatment being successful. Wet hair is essential. Hats worn over shower caps, have been reported to help make them more secure.

The right water, preferably distilled (deionized works too), a good peroxide producing honey and the right method for keeping the hair wet, can make all of the difference in honey lightening results. Honey lightening boosters are optional but they have been reported to be great additions to a recipe, in terms of results.

ktani
October 20th, 2008, 07:40 PM
Honey lightening on henndigoed hair

Indigo is another plant that has varied results on individuals. It can fade easily for some people or be very difficult to lighten.

Honey lightening has been reported to work well on henndigoed hair too. The new dilution, has been reported to work better than previous dilutions, on the more difficult, hard to lighten henndigo. However, some concentrations of henndigo proved resistant to any lightening (except a bleach recipe that all but destroyed test samples), even with conventional peroxide, on test samples of cut off ends, for wintersun99.

bizarrogirl used a previous dilution for her treatments, that included conditioner. However, when more water was added, her results were even better and less ground cinnamon was used. This lead in part to conditioner no longer being recommended for honey lightening. For many others, conditioner did not improve results and in some cases, interfered with honey lightening.

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

bizarrogirl - picture details
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bizarrogirl/sets/72157594199905645/detail/)

wintersun99 - on henndigoed hair (multiple henndigo treatments) - the new dilution, with distilled water and ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=218245&postcount=1855

wintersunn99 update
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281159&postcount=2278

wintersun99's honey lightening recipe and method Note: 3/4 cup is a US measurement = 1/2 cup Metric = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=281794&postcount=2292

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 08:34 AM
Adding "extras" like thickeners or conventional peroxide to a honey lightening recipe is not recommended.

I researched thickeners. All of the the ones I looked into, from cornstarch to gums, to gelatin to flax seed, to cellulose, are not compatible with the unstabilized hydrogen peroxide (as opposed to the stabilized conventional kind) of a honey lightening recipe and can deplete the peroxide levels.

If conventional peroxide is added to a recipe, there would not be protection from hair damage, because the protective flavonoids in a honey lightening treatment need to be used as a pre treatment before conventional peroxide is used, and the peroxide applied over them, or they need to be formulated into the peroxide itself. In honey lightening, the flavonoids are already in the ingredients that produce peroxide.

Here is a thread about that, on helping to protect hair from damage from conventional peroxide/bleach in hair colour. An explanation of how the elements found in honey lightening recipes protect hair from damage and the research that supports this, is also in the thread. There are reports on how coconut oil, (which contains a protective chelator (the flavonoids are chelators), has been effective against hair damage, used as a pre treatment, with a higher level peroxide, conventional hair colour, applied over it.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

brok3nwings
October 21st, 2008, 08:38 AM
ktani the honey i was talking about has heather AND rosemary... the rosemary is lighter then heather. As i am actually in Madeira Island (my hometown) i was looking in the internet for local honey. That honey of heather and rosemary is from Portugal not from Madeira. I was finding difficult to find a multifloral honey from Portugal cause it seams they separate the flowers to have those monofloral honeys so the multifloral are uncomon in Portugal (they have monofloral for specific uses as each flower has its own caracteristics)
About Madeira Island (where i am now and that belongs to Portugal) we have ONLY multiflower honey as the island has a lot of montains and it would be really difficult to do a monofloral honey. There was an article also telling that we are one of the fortunate places were the bees dont have the "Varroose plague" that exists almost everywere, and as we dont have it we dont use the medicine to treat it on the honey, so thats a good thing. There are all sorts of combinations (blends) but normally the honey is not too dark, the darkest is from the bees near the sea and the lighter from the montains. I will look for it in the supermarket but probably i will only find a medium coloured honey, but i will give it a try as at least is made from multiflowers

most of the flowers are : clover, rosemary, sunflower and Eucalyptus (we have a lot) , there are others too but those werent mentioned on the site...

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 08:43 AM
ktani the honey i was talking about has heather AND rosemary... the rosemary is lighter then heather. As i am actually in Madeira Island (my hometown) i was looking in the internet for local honey. That honey of heather and rosemary is from Portugal not from Madeira. I was finding difficult to find a multifloral honey from Portugal cause it seams they separate the flowers to have those monofloral honeys so the multifloral are uncomon in Portugal (they have monofloral for specific uses as each flower has its own caracteristics)
About Madeira Island (where i am now and that belongs to Portugal) we have ONLY multiflower honey as the island has a lot of montains and it would be really difficult to do a monofloral honey. There was an article also telling that we are one of the fortunate places were the bees dont have the "Varroose plague" that exists almost everywere, and as we dont have it we dont use the medicine to treat it on the honey, so thats a good thing. There are all sorts of combinations (blends) but normally the honey is not too dark, the darkest is from the bees near the sea and the lighter from the montains. I will look for it in the supermarket but probably i will only find a medium coloured honey, but i will give it a try as at least is made from multiflowers

Heather and rosemary would be fine because a blend is better in general. Do not worry too much about the colour. Just try to avoid the honeys on the list I have posted. "Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys." You can add chestnut honey to that list as well.

If patch testing works out, I suggest using powdered cardamom in your recipe, with or instead of ground cinnamon. Ground cardamom has a higher peroxide level.

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 11:11 AM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 11:12 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 11:13 AM
The optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6. Most honeys on the market are more acidic than this and the spice boosters are too.

The peroxide in a honey lightening recipe can be depleted by; minerals, Vitamin C, heat and UV.

That is why distilled water (pH7), and the new dilution work so well, IMO. Together, they raise the pH level of the recipe and allow the honey to produce more peroxide than it can at lower concentrations (dilutions) and without extra minerals.

The exception to distilled or deionized water (both should work well), is tap water that has a pH of 7 and a very low to no mineral content.

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 12:40 PM
Factors that influence changing an existing hair colour

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the density and size of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour. The older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 01:36 PM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 02:46 PM
Honey in Ancient Egypt (with pictures of drawings)

".... Egyptians had a steady honey supply from their domesticated bees .... they seem to have valued wild honey even more. Honey hunters .... protected by royal archers, would scour the wild wadis for bee colonies."
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/timelines/topics//beekeeping.htm

ktani
October 21st, 2008, 02:54 PM
Honey and cosmetics in history (including use on hair) See "47.5" There is a honey and water recipe for preserving hair colour.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=ANTSvKj1AZEC&pg=PA511&lpg=PA511&dq=honey+in+ancient+cosmetics&source=web&ots=I9MM7uFAfq&sig=C6H-DUKmElrYn-SugKpXoc3h9eU&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA511,M1

ktani
October 22nd, 2008, 07:15 AM
Distilled water sources

In Canada - pharmacies and grocery stores

Where to buy distilled water in the US
http://www.hardforum.com/archive/index.php/t-1121735.html

Where to find distilled water in the UK - check out battery top up water for additives
"Halfords or any other garage .... battery top up water."

".... off the shelf in Tesco- .... in the car accessory section. 1.50/litre."
"
"best option for UK .... de-ionised water meant for cars. I had a look at water for irons .... they are putting all sorts of rubbish into it."
http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-3499.html

Where to buy distilled water in Europe - Location: er gaat niets boven groningen (Netherlands)
"at a drugstore. Any of them have distilled water .... about an euro per litre."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

Where to buy distilled water in Russia
"$2 for 5 litres in auto parts shop."
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=63745

I recommend distilled over deionized water but deionized water should work well too.

ktani
October 22nd, 2008, 05:15 PM
Current honey lightening recipes have not been reported to add colour to the hair (the old recipes with tomato products could add red).

However, in between honey lightening, 3 things have been reported to discolour hair recently, yielding unwanted yellow, red and gold tones.

These things are:

1. undiluted olive oil as a conditioning treatment, adding yellow to hair
Thanks to FrannyG, extra virgin olive oil can be completely removed from hair by CO'ing, following a conditioning treatment with the oil.

2. cassia senna, mixed with orange juice and on occassion undiluted honey, yielding red/gold tones. That is a pH reaction (both the orange juice and undiluted honey are very acidic).

3. CV shampoo bars, which contain a fair amount of castor oil, which over time, can and has been reported, to darken hair, yielding a gold tone.

Honey lightening, using the current recipes, distilled water and the new dilution, can and has been reported to resolve discoloration problems.

ktani
October 23rd, 2008, 06:50 AM
Honey lightening, Sun-In, UV Oxidation and Oxygen bleach

Conventional peroxide is about 1000 stronger than the level of the peroxide most honeys produce. Yet there have been enough reports on these boards, let alone the Honey threads, to confirm that honey can lighten hair colour.

Conventional peroxide causes hair damage because of oxygen free radicals. Honey lightening has not been reported to cause hair damage, and the protectice flavonoids in honey and honey lightening recipe ingredients, prevent oxygen free radicals from forming.

I was curious about why Sun-In works with heat and UV, when both of those things are known to deplete or help decompose hydrogen peroxide. I was asked why honey lightening does not bleach towels or clothing.

This is what I knew.

The exzyme in honey that produces peroxide, is heat and light sensitive. But what if the peroxide is already produced, by letting a treatment sit for 1 hour, in advance of application?

This is what I learned from researching the subjects.

Conventional peroxide has stabilizers added to it, so that it can withstand handling and storage. That would make it less susceptible to decomposition from heat and light.

Honey lightening recipes have no added stabilizers. While honey lightening recipe ingredients naturally contain chelants that protect hair and skin from oxygen free radicals, they are not the same as those required to stabilize conventional peroxide.

Hair needs to be kept very wet with honey lightening to yield the best results based on reports, even when a treatment has been left to sit in advance of application. That may have to do with honey still producing peroxide after 1 hour and the honey lightening boosters also requiring more time to yield their peroxide.

I successfully lightend some freckles on the backs of my hands last year, but I had to keep the skin covered and wet the whole time. I wore plastic gloves for the 1 hour at a time I did the experiments, and had not let the solution sit for 1 hour, in advance of application.

UV accelerates the formation of cell damaging hydroxyl radicals, in conventional peroxide reactions with substances, (UV is damaging to cells on its own. It is not something I recommend to lighten hair or darken skin).

Honey lightening chelants/antioxidants prevent the formation of free radicals, but honey lightening recipe peroxide would be susceptible to breakdown from UV radiation.

Honey lightening works through oxidation. Oxygen bleaches do not lighten clothing or most coloured fabrics. Oxygen bleaches are colour-safe.



“2. What factors contribute to the decomposition of H2O2?
The primary factors contributing to H2O2 decomposition include: increasing temperature …. increasing pH (especially at pH > 6-8); increasing contamination (especially transition metals such as copper, manganese or iron); …. to a lesser degree, exposure to ultraviolet light. ….

4. What are H2O2 stabilizers …. Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage …. handling conditions. In some applications (e.g. .... cosmetic formulations) a high degree of stabilization is needed; …. types of stabilizers used in H2O2 …. Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate …. traditional mainstays …. Other additives may include nitrate …. phosphoric acid.
http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2 (http://www.h2o2.com/intro/faq.html#2)

UV oxidation
“Exposure of hydrogen peroxide to UV light leads to …. scission of the hydrogen peroxide molecule into two hydroxyl radicals.”
http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx (http://www.trojanuv.com/en/business/ECTadditionalinfo.aspx)

Hydroxyl radicals
“…. can damage virtually all types of macromolecules: carbohydrates, nucleic acids (mutations (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Mutation)), lipids (lipid peroxidation (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Lipid_peroxidation)) and amino acids (e.g. conversion of Phe (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Phe) to m-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine) and o-Tyrosine (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Tyrosine)). The only means to protect important cellular (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Cell_(biology)) structures is the use of antioxidants (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/wiki/Antioxidants) ….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxyl_radical)

“Advantages of Powdered Oxygen Bleach
…. best advantage of an oxygen bleach is that you can get rid of stubborn dirt and organic stains without having to use toxic …. hazardous materials like chlorine bleach. Oxygen bleaches are …. color-safe and won't bleach dyed fabrics like chlorine bleach will.”
http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/ (http://oxygenbleach.homestead.com/files/)

“Some non-chlorine bleaches contain slightly weaker oxidizing agents, which will oxidize the colored molecules in many common stains, but not the robust pigments of commercial textile dyes. That's what makes them "color-safe."
<A href="http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm" target=_blank>http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm (http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem99/chem99533.htm)

brok3nwings
October 23rd, 2008, 04:08 PM
about my last treatment i used honey, distilled water and cinnamon, left for about 1h30 min and washed it with CO method. I did see some lightening but unfortunatly i think that it gives me brassiness. I dont know if it could be from cinnamon but i dont believe it.
This is my question (and im sorry if i had already mention it before) but: convencional peroxide used directly in the hair (as it doenst have any tint to conteract red, gold tones) gives unwanted red and golden tones to hair. This is why people shouldnt use Sun In and stuff like that that has only peroxide... brown hair has mostly red tones and blond hair mostly yellow tones...i am between so i get some of both. Forgive me if im rong but if honey lightens through a natural peroxide (but still peroxide) it will make the same effect of giving those "unwanted" tones right?
I would love to hear someone telling me.." no no no , you are wrong" :)

ktani
October 23rd, 2008, 09:49 PM
about my last treatment i used honey, distilled water and cinnamon, left for about 1h30 min and washed it with CO method. I did see some lightening but unfortunatly i think that it gives me brassiness. I dont know if it could be from cinnamon but i dont believe it.
This is my question (and im sorry if i had already mention it before) but: convencional peroxide used directly in the hair (as it doenst have any tint to conteract red, gold tones) gives unwanted red and golden tones to hair. This is why people shouldnt use Sun In and stuff like that that has only peroxide... brown hair has mostly red tones and blond hair mostly yellow tones...i am between so i get some of both. Forgive me if im rong but if honey lightens through a natural peroxide (but still peroxide) it will make the same effect of giving those "unwanted" tones right?
I would love to hear someone telling me.." no no no , you are wrong" :)

I think that you are mistaken in this case, not in seeing brassiness but the cause. Is there something on your hair that you left out (did not mention)? What colour is the conditioner you used to CO?

You are blonde and the current honey lightening recipes 1. do not add colour and 2. have not been reported to cause brassiness, just the opposite.

I did a post on red tones. I think that you are too light to get them from peroxide.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291213&postcount=2340

I also did a post on changing an existing hair colour.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=291820&postcount=2342

Try cardamom for your next treatment or increase the cinnamon to 2 tablespoons and add 1/2 tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil.

gallows_gallery
October 23rd, 2008, 10:54 PM
I have decided that honey is MAGIC.

So far I've only done TWO applications, on my 5000 layers of chemical dye (black, and dark brown) and I swear I can already see a difference.

I'm using Australian "Beechworth's" honey, and ground cardamom. I left it on for about two hours each time.

My ends are noticeably dark brown indoors, as opposed to looking black!

I'll do a few more applications then see if the difference is visible in comparison photos. Thanks for this great thread!

Oh and P.S.! After I wash it out, the cardamom smell faintly stays in my hair, even after it's dried. It's soo nice

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 05:56 AM
I have decided that honey is MAGIC.

So far I've only done TWO applications, on my 5000 layers of chemical dye (black, and dark brown) and I swear I can already see a difference.

I'm using Australian "Beechworth's" honey, and ground cardamom. I left it on for about two hours each time.

My ends are noticeably dark brown indoors, as opposed to looking black!

I'll do a few more applications then see if the difference is visible in comparison photos. Thanks for this great thread!

Oh and P.S.! After I wash it out, the cardamom smell faintly stays in my hair, even after it's dried. It's soo nice


You are most welcome.

I am so glad that you are so pleased!

Jarrah honey has been reported to work very well too and has a very high peroxide level.

Ground cardamom has a higher peroxide level than ground cinnamon and does not contain coumarin.

It would be great if you could post pictures.

Please post your exact recipe and method for others.

How is the condition of your hair post honey lightening?

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 06:06 AM
Cinnamom Caution

I think that honey lightening recipes with ground (powdered) cinnamon are safe to use but I would mix them up a bit, not to get too much coumarin at one time, or too often (unless Ceylon cinnamon is available http://www.ceylon-cinnamon.com/Identify-Cinnamon.htm). The recommended maximum is 2 tablespoons ground cinnamon per treatment. I suggest alternating recipes, using just honey and distilled water or honey and cardamom and distilled water (coconut oil and evoo are optional).

Both ground cinnamon and ground cardamom can be skin sensitizers. Ground cardamom has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon and has a higher peroxide value. Patch test before using either spice.

Cardamom
http://www.florahealth.com/flora/home/Canada/HealthInformation/Encyclopedias/CardamomSeed.htm

It really depends on the frequency of one's honey lightening routine and preferred recipe.

Even though I have posted about the ground cassia cinnamon, coumarin connection before, it is always good IMO, to review research again.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=299996&postcount=2380

Overuse of ground cassia cinnamon is not recommended.

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 08:00 AM
Choosing a honey for honey lightening

Here is the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

Jarrah honey, from Australia, is known for its very high peroxide value and is a good choice for honey lightening. Information on Jarrah honey and current suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266


Honey lightening boosters

Honey lightening boosters are; ground (powdered) cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil and extra virgin olive oil (EVOO).
Each one has a peroxide value that can contribute to the peroxide value of a recipe.

EVOO has a higher peroxide value than coconut oil. Suggested recipe amounts for the oils are 1 tablespoon or less in total, per treatment.

Each spice has a higher peroxide value than either oil. Both spices can be sensitizers. Patch test before using. Suggested recipe amounts for the spices are 1 - 2 tablespoons in total, per treatment.

Cardamom has a higher peroxide value than ground cinnamon and has been reported to wash out of the hair easier than ground cinnamon. There is a cinnamon caution. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=300323&postcount=2382

None of the boosters has a higher peroxide value than most honeys. (It depends on the honey though. Some honeys produce very little peroxide.)

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 08:00 AM
Honey lightening can be done repeatedly with no worries about hair damage.

There been no reports of hair damage from honey lightening in all 5 Honey threads to date, including this one, no matter how long a treatment is left on the hair or how often it is done. The research that supports this is in my signature post, in this thread, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495 and the Honey Article. There have been no reports of honey damaging hair on these boards, when accidental lightening has occurred.

Honey residue can leave the hair dry and hair ends stiff. This result is temporary and can easily resolved by shampooing. There have been 0 lasting effects reported when this is done.

Not all honeys leave a discernable residue that reqires shampooing out. Both raw and pasteurized honeys, cheap and expensive ones, can leave a residue. The amount of residue depends on the honey but there is no one type or brand of honey that has been singled out to leave more residue than others.

It is important to rinse the hair well but honey residue is best removed by shampoo, based on reports.

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 08:01 AM
Honey lightening is so much simpler now.

And the reported results have been so much better than with previous recipes.

Now it is just honey, distilled water (unless your tap water is mineral free and pH 7) and the choice of added peroxide boosters (ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, coconut oil, extra virgin olive oil). Everything should be used at room temperature only, with no added heat (body heat is the exception to no heat). Here are pictures of just honey and water results.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=245992&postcount=2043

The new dilution is the key to a successful recipe, IMO. 1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) needs 3/4 cup distilled water US, (1/2 cup Metric). 1/8 cup honey weighs 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz = 12 tablespoons distilled water needed, or x amount of honey to 4 times the amount of distilled water by weight. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

Here are pictures of results with the new dilution.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

A treatment can be left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application, to produce peroxide (recommended), or used right away if you are in a hurry and it will produce peroxide while on the hair.

The recipes can be applied with a tint, blush or pastry brush, and/or a spray or squirt bottle, then the hair needs to be securely covered with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended) and the treatment left on the hair for about an hour. The hair must be completely wet with the treatment both before being covered and during the time that a treatment is on the hair.

With a good peroxide producing honey, the right dilution and method, that is all there is to it. Here is The Successful Honeys List.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 08:03 AM
With the new dilution, the 2 most common amounts of honey reported to be used are 1/8 cup and 1/4 cup.

1/8 cup honey = 2 tablespoons and requires 6 oz of distilled water or 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric). In tablespoons this would be 2 tablespoons honey to 12 tablespoons distilled water

*** For less to no drips, 1 tablespoon honey can be used to 6 tablespoons distilled water, on wet hair. ***

1/4 cup honey = 4 tablespoons and requires 12 oz of distilled water or 1 1/2 cups US (1 cup Metric), or 4 tablespoons honey to 24 tablespoons distilled water.

The honey conversion link
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

You need to convert the amount of honey by weight x 4 to get the correct amount of distilled water required. Converting honey to fluid oz gives you less distilled water than the amount required. Honey is heavier than water.

1/8 cup honey (2 tablespoons) = 1 fluid oz x 4 = 4 oz of distilled water required. This is not the correct amount for the new dilution. 1/8 cup honey weighs or = 1.5 oz x 4 = 6 oz of distilled water required. This is the correct amount for the new dilution.

It is very important to keep the hair very wet with the treatment before and while covered for the hour that it is on the hair. A swim cap is recommended to keep the hair very wet and securely covered.

plainjanegirl
October 24th, 2008, 08:39 AM
I have decided that honey is MAGIC.

So far I've only done TWO applications, on my 5000 layers of chemical dye (black, and dark brown) and I swear I can already see a difference.

I'm using Australian "Beechworth's" honey, and ground cardamom. I left it on for about two hours each time.

My ends are noticeably dark brown indoors, as opposed to looking black!

I'll do a few more applications then see if the difference is visible in comparison photos. Thanks for this great thread!

Oh and P.S.! After I wash it out, the cardamom smell faintly stays in my hair, even after it's dried. It's soo nice


Feel free to post your exact recipe and method of how you are doing it. Post some pics when you get a chance!!!

brok3nwings
October 24th, 2008, 09:03 AM
ktani i am not that light... i would be considered a light brown if it wasnt my blond highlights from the summer that disapear in the winter... half of my hair is from past die, that has gone light ... i do have a lot of red in my hair, believe me. This is my natural colour (from when i had long hair): you can click to see it bigger...

i had nothing in my hair that could bring brassiness, i washed with shampoo before the treatment and the conditioner was of a white colour. I believe this is something that you cant do without a tint if your hair has natural redness. And my hair is Medium, not fine so it would take the brassiness for longer...
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4404/caaaym5.th.jpg (http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=caaaym5.jpg)http://img353.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 09:08 AM
ktani i am not that light... i would be considered a light brown if it wasnt my blond highlights from the summer that disapear in the winter... half of my hair not is from past die, that has gone light so... i do have a lot of red in my hair, believe me. This is my natural colour (from when i had long hair): you can click to see it bigger... i had nothing in my hair that could bring brassiness, i washed with shampoo before the treatment and the conditioner was of a white colour.
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/4404/caaaym5.th.jpg (http://img353.imageshack.us/my.php?image=caaaym5.jpg)http://img353.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif (http://g.imageshack.us/thpix.php)

Ah I see, that would explain it then.

Ok, patch test ground cardamom and see if you can use it in addition to or instead of the ground cinnamon. It has a higher peroxide value.

It should help push your hair colour past the gold to blonde.

brok3nwings
October 24th, 2008, 09:15 AM
I dont know what cardamon is... i have searched in the internet and i have never seen it or heard of it .. :/ i am also thinking of using the treatment only on my roots cause i think that the lengh is already light and the brassy tones bothers me in the died hair not as much as in my natural colour. When you have gold in your hair as i do you shouldnt "mess" with a colour that is ok, otherwise you are taking a risk to push the gold again... and i only like gold if its a dark gold as my natural colour, the non natural colour with my natural gold gives me a yellowish terrible colour

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 09:22 AM
I dont know what cardamon is... i have searched in the internet and i have never seen it or heard of it .. :/ i am also thinking of using the treatment only on my roots cause i think that the lengh is already light and the brassy tones bothers me in the died hair not as much as in my natural colour. When you have gold in your hair as i do you shouldnt "mess" with a colour that is ok, otherwise you are taking a risk to push the gold again... and i only like gold if its a dark gold as my natural colour, the non natural colour with my natural gold gives me a yellowish terrible colour

Here is some information on cardamom.

Cardamom

"The two main genera of the ginger family that are named as forms of cardamom ...

Elettaria (commonly called cardamom, green cardamom, or true cardamom) ...

Amomum (commonly known as black cardamom, brown cardamom, Kravan, Java cardamom, Bengal cardamom, Siamese cardamom, white or red cardamom) ...."

It appears that both the brown or black and the green forms of cardamom are used in medicine and food although the black or brown is reported to have a more "astringent aroma". See "Uses"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom)

"... traditional uses of cardamom to treat skin conditions ... it has been used traditionally to treat areas of the body that have red-pigmentation." http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html (http://www.plantcultures.org/plants/cardamom_traditional_medicine.html)

See "Hand picked"
“The ancient Egyptians chewed cardamom to whiten their teeth and ... sweeten their breath.
Applied topically, cardamom .... used as an insect repellent."
http://pr.sv.net/aw/2006/January2006/english/pages002.htm

and this It is recommended that one buy cardamom in the pods and then grind the seeds. Note: The substitutes named in the link below are for recipe flavour - nutmeg is an irritant and ground clove has a comparatively (to cinnamon or cardamom) very low peroxide value.

"It best to buy cardamom seeds still encased in their natural flavor-protecting pods .... discard after you remove the seeds. You can also buy cardamom without the pods, called cardamom seeds = decorticated cardamom .... the unprotected seeds lose flavor quickly. Ground cardamom seeds ... less flavorful .... Recipes that call for cardamom ... intend for you to use green cardamom ... named for the green pods .... Some producers bleach the green hulls to a pale tan .... this makes them less aromatic. .... Equivalents: One pod yields 1/6 teaspoon cardamom."
http://www.foodsubs.com/SpiceUniv.html#cardamom

Wiki though, has this to say on ground cardamom.

".... high-quality ground cardamom is often more readily (and cheaply) available, and is an acceptable substitute."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardamom


And here are your results from your previous successful honey lightening. The colour looks good to me. I think that the current recipes and the new dilutiion is better than what you used before though.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=98244&postcount=503

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=99995&postcount=516

brok3nwings
October 24th, 2008, 09:34 AM
I only know ginger... if its from the family maybe i can find it around here, sometimes spices have english and portuguese (depending if they were imported or not) so i will try to see it...
as the colour, i like my natural colour i would love to have only my virgin colour and then try the honey treatment... for example, i am now using an updo and i like it so much more then with my hair loose cause i dont see those too light hairs. I will try next time to do it only on my roots and leave the rest alone

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 09:42 AM
I only know ginger... if its from the family maybe i can find it around here, sometimes spices have english and portuguese (depending if they were imported or not) so i will try to see it...
as the colour, i like my natural colour i would love to have only my virgin colour and then try the honey treatment... for example, i am now using an updo and i like it so much more then with my hair loose cause i dont see those too light hairs. I will try next time to do it only on my roots and leave the rest alone

Ginger is not the same as cardamom. I do not recommend substituting ginger for cardamom.

Here is how to do roots only with honey lightening.

Doing roots only with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=296249&postcount=2371

brok3nwings
October 24th, 2008, 09:46 AM
ktani i understand its not the same, i was saying if there is ginger in Portugal probably there is cardamon also, sometimes some spices are hard to find when they are not used in food. Portuguese people dont use many herbs so sometimes its hard to find some spices. I will leave now and i will try to go to the health store and see if i can find something there ;) thank you

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 09:51 AM
ktani i understand its not the same, i was saying if there is ginger in Portugal probably there is cardamon also, sometimes some spices are hard to find when they are not used in food. Portuguese people dont use many herbs so sometimes its hard to find some spices. I will leave now and i will try to go to the health store and see if i can find something there ;) thank you

Sorry, I misunderstood you, my apologies. Cardamom is well known but may be hard to find where you are. Specialty food stores may carry it or stores that sell Indian or Middle Eastern foods. It should be cheaper at Indian or Middle Eastern food stores. Be sure to patch test though.

plainjanegirl
October 24th, 2008, 09:51 AM
ktani i understand its not the same, i was saying if there is ginger in Portugal probably there is cardamon also, sometimes some spices are hard to find when they are not used in food. Portuguese people dont use many herbs so sometimes its hard to find some spices. I will leave now and i will try to go to the health store and see if i can find something there ;) thank you


Good luck! I hope you find what you need.

brok3nwings
October 24th, 2008, 12:37 PM
plainjanegirl well thank you :) and i actually DID !!! Yayyy eheh i went to the health store and bought Biotin (that i had none), Kelp (and when i read about it in the other thread i thought i woundnt find it) and Cardomom, the name in Portuguese is "Cardomomo" so it is really simillar...and i have never ever heard of it!! eheh I also bought a dark honey from only one plant thinking that maybe i could mix it with other?! Ktani this is a question for you, is it possible to do that in the honey treatment? Mix two different honeys?

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 12:50 PM
plainjanegirl well thank you :) and i actually DID !!! Yayyy eheh i went to the health store and bought Biotin (that i had none), Kelp (and when i read about it in the other thread i thought i woundnt find it) and Cardomom, the name in Portuguese is "Cardomomo" so it is really simillar...and i have never ever heard of it!! eheh I also bought a dark honey from only one plant thinking that maybe i could mix it with other?! Ktani this is a question for you, is it possible to do that in the honey treatment? Mix two different honeys?

Absolutely.

Mix away and good luck!

Please patch test the cardomomo.

brok3nwings
October 24th, 2008, 01:59 PM
ktani i will do the next treatment next week as im not at "home" right now and i dont have the swimming cap (yes it did help a lot for the dripping..it gave me some headacks :/ lol ) but anyway, im happy to have something new to try on, lets see :)

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 04:21 PM
ktani i will do the next treatment next week as im not at "home" right now and i dont have the swimming cap (yes it did help a lot for the dripping..it gave me some headacks :/ lol ) but anyway, im happy to have something new to try on, lets see :)

Sorry to hear about the headache with the swim cap. You may need a larger size. One size does not fit everyone and I do not believe in suffering for beauty (an old concept). Good luck!

ktani
October 24th, 2008, 09:42 PM
It has come up more than once, that people have used something absorbant to cover a honey lightening treatment, a towel, in cases posted, and in those cases, the results were less than desired, although some lightening occurred.

A towel or any absorbant material, will absorb the needed moisture from the treatment, drying the hair and making the treatment useless in those areas, most likely the very top layers of the hair. If a honey lightening treatment dries on the hair, lightenig will stop or not happen at all.

All of the hair needs to be very wet, uniformly so, both before and while covered during honey lightening (unless a specific area is designated for lightening, like roots).

A swim cap IMO, is the best option to keep the hair wet and is the most secure.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

Plastic bags have been reported to slip allowing the hair to dry and shower caps have been reported to be too loose, also allowing hair to dry. Shower caps are designed to keep the hair dry but are not as secure as swim caps, for keeping hair wet.

I do recommend that towels be used during honey lightening, worn around the neck to catch any drips. Towels or any extra coverings are not necessary to be worn over a plastic covering, because extra body heat is not central to a honey lighteing treatment being successful. Wet hair is essential. Hats worn over shower caps, have been reported to help make them more secure.

The right water, preferably distilled (deionized works too), a good peroxide producing honey and the right method for keeping the hair wet, can make all of the difference in honey lightening results. Honey lightening boosters are optional but they have been reported to be great additions to a recipe, in terms of results.

ktani
October 25th, 2008, 04:56 PM
The differences between an SMT and honey lightening recipes.

SMT's, unmicrowaved, have been reported on the boards, to lighten hair somewhat. However, the recipe is very different to even the original recommended honey lightening recipes, which have all been replaced with new recipes, and the new dilution.

Honey slowly releases hydrogen peroxide on dilution, with liquids that contain water. Honey mixed with straight oil, is not diluted (some people have mixed honey with straight oil, instead of condtioner, in an SMT). While some oils are liquid, they contain no water.

An SMT calls for 4 parts conditioner to 1 part honey and 1 part clear aloe gel. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1423&postcount=1

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening for 2 main reasons: its pH, which is too acidic for most honeys, which are also acidic (the optimal pH for honey to produce peroxide is 6); and its ingredients, which in some cases, can interfere with honey lightening.

Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so. Aloe vera gel on average, contains over 3 x more Vitamin C than raw lemon juice. Vitamin C containing ingredients are no longer recommended for honey lightening recipes.



Below are the Vitamin C contents of aloe vera gel, and lemon juice.

Aloe vera gel, about 350 mg per 8 oz or 240 ml or 1 cup US
http://www.aloeveracanada.ca/about_av.html

Lemon juice, raw, 112 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VG.html

Lemon juice, canned or bottled, 60.5 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VH.html

Lemon juice, frozen unsweetened, single strength, 76.9 mg in 1 cup US or 244 g
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c20VI.html

ktani
October 26th, 2008, 05:46 AM
A breakdown of the newest honey lightening recommendations, which have been reported to be working out very well. This is all in the recommendations post in my signature.

Patch test any of the ingredients not previously used on scalp or skin.

1. Choose a honey - the Successful Honeys List
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

If one cannot be found - try a dark coloured honey blend - raw or pasteurized - both have been reported to work equally well. Dark coloured blends were reported in research, to have higher peroxide levels than lighter coloured blends. A dark coloured, single source honey, does not necessarily have a high peroxide value - it depends on the plant source.

Jarrah honey - highly recommended - it has a very high peroxide value. More information and suppliers can be found here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=157257&postcount=1266

Some honeys naturally contain higher levels of Vitamin C. Avoid using Anzer, buckwheat, linden flower, locust flower, mint and thyme honeys.

2. Use distilled water only. It contains no minerals. Minerals can deplete the recipe peroxide (so can Vitamin C, see #5). Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. Its pH, ingredients and per centage of water can interfere with results. The same applies to coconut cream and milk (they also contain minerals and Vitamin C, as well as not enough water to properly dilute honey).

3. Use the new dilution (4 x the amount of water to honey by weight) - e.g. 1/8 cup honey needs 3/4 cup US (1/2 cup Metric) or 12 tablespoons distilled water. 50 g honey needs 200 g distilled water etc. Here is a conversion link.
http://www.traditionaloven.com/conversions_of_measures/honey_measurements.html

4. Do not apply heat to any of the recipe ingredients at any time. Peroxide containing boosters are ground cardamom, ground cinnamon, extra virgin olive oil and coconut oil. Suggested amounts per recipe are; 1-2 tablespoons for the spices, 1 tablespoon or less for the oils.

5. Do not add lemon juice, or any other ingredient that contains Vitamin C to a recipe, like tomato products, which are no longer recommended. Hydrogen peroxide oxidizes Vitamin C, and is depleted in doing so.

6. Mix the treatment at room temperature and let it sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the honey to produce peroxide in advance of application or use it right away and the honey will produce peroxide while on the hair.

7. Apply the treatment to wet or dry hair if there is no aloe gel on it - aloe gel contains Vitamin C, or a leave-in treatment with Vitamin C, heavy residue, or a large amount of oil on the hair (a large amount of oil will act as a barrier to the water). If there is, wash or rinse the hair first. The treatment can be applied with a tint, blush, pastry brush and/or a spray or squirt bottle.

8. Pin up, then cover the hair securely with plastic (wearing a swim cap is recommended), to keep it out of the way, competely wet (the hair needs to be very wet with the treatment, both before and while covered) and contain drips. Leave the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

ktani
October 27th, 2008, 09:05 AM
How much can honey lightening lighten hair colour?

Pictures of honey lightening with the new dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227548&postcount=1906

Pictures of honey lightening with just honey and water
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=227610&postcount=1907

The long Pictures Post of some reported results with honey lightening
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133707&postcount=1095

plainjanegirl
October 27th, 2008, 10:04 AM
Do I need to wash my hair before I do the honey lightening? I am trying to only wash my hair twice a week now and I don't want to wash it before and after the honey mix.

ktani
October 27th, 2008, 10:20 AM
Do I need to wash my hair before I do the honey lightening? I am trying to only wash my hair twice a week now and I don't want to wash it before and after the honey mix.

It depens on what is on your hair. If there is residue or a leave-in, then I would say yes. If not then it is not necessary.

You do not have to wash your hair following honey lightening. Some people just rinse or CO out a treatment.

If there is honey residue (your hair may feel dry and the ends stiff), then shampooing is the best reported way to remove it.

plainjanegirl
October 27th, 2008, 10:27 AM
It depens on what is on your hair. If there is residue or a leave-in, then I would say yes. If not then it is not necessary.

You do not have to wash your hair following honey lightening. Some people just rinse or CO out a treatment.

If there is honey residue (your hair may feel dry and the ends stiff), then shampooing is the best reported way to remove it.


All I would have in my hair is the hair serum I use when my hair is wet before detangling the day I washed my hair and some coconut oil. So do you think that would be ok. And I am gonna take some pics.

ktani
October 27th, 2008, 10:33 AM
All I would have in my hair is the hair serum I use when my hair is wet before detangling the day I washed my hair and some coconut oil. So do you think that would be ok. And I am gonna take some pics.

It depends on what the serum is made of, how much you used and how much coconut oil is on your hair.

I do not think that the coconut oil would be any problem.

ETA: Pics are always welcome if you can manage it. With your current scalp/hair problems, please be sure to patch test the spices if you choose to use them.

meganb990
October 27th, 2008, 05:50 PM
This might have been mentioned before sorry for repeating the question if it has but in everyone's opinion how is it easiest to get the honey mixture in your hair, I'm thinking about using a spray bottle. Any opinions on this? Thank you in advance.

SeaPhoenix
October 27th, 2008, 05:54 PM
Spray bottle was the easiest method for me.

meganb990
October 27th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Thank you SeaPhoenix.

plainjanegirl
October 27th, 2008, 06:10 PM
I used the spray bottle method today. My hair is still wet. What I did was make a mix of 1/4 cup honey and 1 1/2 cups water and mixed it in a bowl so later when i put it in my spray bottle I sprayed the whole bottle on my hair (which was half the mix) and then about 30 minutes later I used the other half.

ktani
October 27th, 2008, 06:51 PM
This might have been mentioned before sorry for repeating the question if it has but in everyone's opinion how is it easiest to get the honey mixture in your hair, I'm thinking about using a spray bottle. Any opinions on this? Thank you in advance.

Welcome to LHC and Honey

A honey lightening treatment can be applied a number of ways.

Apply the treatment with a tint, blush, basting brush, spray or squirt bottle, pin the hair up, cover the hair with plastic and keep the treatment on the hair for about 1 hour. The hair must be kept completely wet with the treatment both before it is covered and while the treatment is on the hair. Wearing a swim cap is recommended.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=134083&postcount=1096

ktani
October 27th, 2008, 06:55 PM
I used the spray bottle method today. My hair is still wet. What I did was make a mix of 1/4 cup honey and 1 1/2 cups water and mixed it in a bowl so later when i put it in my spray bottle I sprayed the whole bottle on my hair (which was half the mix) and then about 30 minutes later I used the other half.

I see a huge problem with this method as you used it, the 30 minute delay.

If you do not wish to cover your hair as recommended for the hour, it is important to keep the hair uniformly very wet, for the whole time that a treatment is on your hair.

In 1/2 hour, part of the hair can start to dry. When that happens, the peroxide either stops being produced (if you did not let the treatment sit for 1 hour in advance of application) or it just stops working altogether and results are going to be uneven.

Your recipe is fine. It is your method that is failing you, causing the uneven results, that you have reported.

ktani
October 27th, 2008, 07:02 PM
All of the hair needs to be very wet, uniformly so, both before and while covered during honey lightening (unless a specific area is designated for lightening, like roots which need to be kept wet, while the rest of the hair can be dry).

If misting the hair is done, it needs to be constant, so that none of the hair starts to dry. Hair closest to the roots will dry first because of body heat.

A swim cap IMO, is the best option to keep the hair wet and is the most secure.

Here is some information on swim caps.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=276153&postcount=2258

Plastic bags have been reported to slip allowing the hair to dry and shower caps have been reported to be too loose, also allowing hair to dry. Shower caps are designed to keep the hair dry but are not as secure as swim caps, for keeping hair wet.

The right water, preferably distilled (deionized works too), a good peroxide producing honey and the right method for keeping the hair wet, can make all of the difference in honey lightening results. Honey lightening boosters are optional but they have been reported to be great additions to a recipe, in terms of results.

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 05:33 AM
Doing roots only with honey lightening

Mix the honey lightening recipe, distilled water and honey and any peroxide boosters at room temperature only, no heat having been applied at any point, to any of the ingredients. Make enough of the recipe to keep some left over.

Then let the treatment sit for 1 hour, also at room temperature, to allow the recipe to produce peroxide.

Apply the mix after the hour to dry hair at the roots, with a tint, brush, basting or pastry brush. This method should also work on any specific section of hair that you want lightened.

Just before covering the hair, make sure that all of the hair you want lightened is very wet with the treatment (hair near the roots dries faster because of body heat). Use the left over treatment to mist these areas.

Pin up the dry hair that you are not lightening and cover the hair with plastic (a swim cap is recommded).

Leave the honey lightening treatment on the hair for about 1 hour.

plainjanegirl
October 28th, 2008, 08:05 AM
I see a huge problem with this method as you used it, the 30 minute delay.

If you do not wish to cover your hair as recommended for the hour, it is important to keep the hair uniformly very wet, for the whole time that a treatment is on your hair.

In 1/2 hour, part of the hair can start to dry. When that happens, the peroxide either stops being produced (if you did not let the treatment sit for 1 hour in advance of application) or it just stops working altogether and results are going to be uneven.

Your recipe is fine. It is your method that is failing you, causing the uneven results, that you have reported.


I can assure everyone that the method I used yesterday worked. I will be posting pics later today. There was lightening. And yes the hair all stayed uniformlly wet. If anyone is going to do the spray bottle method I would encourage them to try this. It works!!!!

ktani
October 28th, 2008, 09:28 AM
I can assure everyone that the method I used yesterday worked. I will be posting pics later today. There was lightening. And yes the hair all stayed uniformlly wet. If anyone is going to do the spray bottle method I would encourage them to try this. It works!!!!

I am glad to read you you have finally gotten lightening results that you are pleased with.

Misting can work, there is no question of that. The best reported results with that method, have been when the hair has been misted constantly, maintaining all of the hair being wet, not in 1/2 hour increments, which I do not recommend.

Of all of the methods used with honey lightening, the best reported results that have yielded the most lightening, have been when the hair is covered with plastic, and the very best, when a swim cap has been used.

I modify the recommendations based on reports of results.

This is what a swim cap can help do with honey lightening.
kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 2 treatments
http://img45.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honeykokuryudx6.png

kokuryu - on virgin, mid-blonde hair - using only tap water with a pH of 7 and a very low mineral content and honey, unmeasured - after 3 treatments
http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3treatmentsbh0.png

Some tap waters have a very low mineral content and a pH of 7, making them perfect for honey lightening. IMO, such tap water is exceptional, rather than common. I recommend using distilled or deionized water only for honey lightening. Of the two, I recommend distilled, if both are available.