Baking Soda done right?

[LittleOgre]

Hello. So I thought of an idea... Everyone has talked about how baking soda damages your hair because its to alkaline. I saw a blog post on how the PH level of baking soda is 9.5 and even when diluted by 20 cups its 9.0. And even then when you took a tablespoon of that 20 cups of diluted baking soda and put it in a cup of water. Its 7.0.

My thoughts to that is. Water. The ph level generally is between 5-8. So its probably hard to dilute something if the ph range is fairly close. If the water was at a ph of 7 or even 8 and baking soda at 9.5. Then you can't expect it to be diluted properly. So why couldn't you just simply dilute something really alkaline such as baking soda with something really acidic like apple cider vinegar or lemon juice etc. You'll probably notice since the ph levels are so far off from each other. When its together. It ends up in a more neutral area. Does that make sense?

[lakhesis]

Maybe pH wise it will end up in the safe zone, but you will end up producing some kind of salt solution which will most likely dry your hair anyway. (sodium bicarbonate + acetic acid -> sodium acetate)

[LittleOgre]

True but it would be a good scalp cleanser.

[lapushka]

True but it would be a good scalp cleanser.

I... don't know about that. There's plenty of good, safe, alternatives these days that you no longer have to mess with things like this (your concoction can go wrong and there's a chance of that every single time).

Why do you want to use BS?

[Zesty]

Why do you want to use BS?

My question exactly. You say in your other thread that you wanted to make it easier to moisturize your hair, right? And you want a good scalp cleanser? If you let us know what exactly you're looking to do, we can make suggestions that are more hair friendly than baking soda, and probably easier and safer too.

[Zesty]

Also... putting an acid like vinegar with baking soda sounds like something you'd use to clean your bathtub, and no one needs that on their head.

[Doreen]

Yes, mixing baking soda and an acid will end up in a more neutral pH range, but via a chemical reaction that you may or may not want to occur on your scalp.

[JennGalt]

Also... putting an acid like vinegar with baking soda sounds like something you'd use to clean your bathtub, and no one needs that on their head.

I use it as a toilet cleaner... It’s harsher than it sounds. Can’t say I’d want that on my head. Also: I seem to recall reading somewhere on here and a few other sites that baking soda granules are abrasive enough that they are capable of scratching hair and doing mechanical damage.

Type 4 hair is more easily damaged than others, so probably not a good idea to put that on your hair if you want to retain length. Just because your hair isn’t breaking off right now doesn’t mean it’s not doing irreparable damage—the damaged portion may take a while to break off or split. The ends of your hair are older than the other parts and see more daily wear and tear. They can’t withstand as much routine damage if they are already damaged from something like baking soda, heat styling or bleach, and will break off sooner than it otherwise would have—perhaps far before reaching your desired length!

It’s your hair, and ultimately your decision as to what’s best for your hair and lifestyle, but there’s a reason you don’t see a lot of people using or recommending regularly using baking soda on here.

[LittleOgre]

It was simply an idea. The baking soda from my other thread was what I was trying to do. But someone sent a link to why baking soda is damaging. So I thought about that.

[LittleOgre]

I noticed that for me when it comes to cleaning bathrooms. The effectiness is what you use to scrub. Unless youre using a chemical like bleach. Ive used cheap clarifying soap out of desperation to clean my bathroom and it worked just as well. People have used dr.bronner.

[akurah]

https://nightbloominggarden.com/2018/01/healing-hair-damaging-no-poo-baking-soda-washes/

http://blog.kanelstrand.com/2014/01/baking-soda-destroyed-my-hair.html?m=1

Second link states even diluting 1tbsp in 20 cups of water still has a pH of 9.5, which will ruin your hair.

[LittleOgre]

You literally didn't read my post lol

[akurah]

You literally didn't read my post lol

I did, and diluting baking soda in water won’t be a good idea, and diluting it in acid is significantly worse.
ETA:
To add some perspective, you’re basically proposing to put an elementary school science project of a chemical volcano on your head.

[LittleOgre]

It makes a chemical reaction then subsides. There is nothing to say that its worse or even bad. Many people use it for their locs. You'd need to give me a article on the effects of bakong soda and lemon or vinegar to make my mind changed. I already know it doesnt go down with water.

[Doreen]

Only you will know how it reacts on your own hair, no article can tell you that.

[Arciela]

I used it before and it ruined my hair :( My friend diluted it quite a bit too..just sharing my experience. I wouldn't bother with it personally..I've found much better shampoos and even better cowashes :flower:

[LittleOgre]

What did you dilute it with? Water?

[Wildcat Diva]

My hair is too important to me to risk something like this. Why push the envelope when years and years worth of growth is on the line and is not easily replaced?

[akurah]

It makes a chemical reaction then subsides. There is nothing to say that its worse or even bad. Many people use it for their locs. You'd need to give me a article on the effects of bakong soda and lemon or vinegar to make my mind changed. I already know it doesnt go down with water.

If you want to wash your hair with sodium acetate, by all means. It’s not likely to actually clean your hair, it’s a salt, not a cleaning agent.

[Nightshade]

https://nightbloominggarden.com/2018/01/healing-hair-damaging-no-poo-baking-soda-washes/

http://blog.kanelstrand.com/2014/01/baking-soda-destroyed-my-hair.html?m=1

Second link states even diluting 1tbsp in 20 cups of water still has a pH of 9.5, which will ruin your hair.

Hahaha I came here to post exactly those two links. There is literally no reason to use baking soda on your hair, full stop. If you're going to insist on an alkaline method of cleansing, you're much better off with a shampoo bar and an ACV rinse.

[Nightshade]

It makes a chemical reaction then subsides. There is nothing to say that its worse or even bad. Many people use it for their locs. You'd need to give me a article on the effects of bakong soda and lemon or vinegar to make my mind changed. I already know it doesnt go down with water.

You realize people use it on their locs specifically because it raises the cuticle and makes it loc tighter, right? Generally, you do not want to open the cuticle because it makes it prone to damage.

[The-Young-Maid]

I feel like the only hair use for baking soda is serious clarifying. It's not even the best choice for that anyway, unless you don't have access to a clarifying/sulfate shampoo. There is plenty of evidence that regular use causes damage to the hair. I'm just not sure what you were going for OP. So even if your theory worked, what would you do with it? Use it as a cleanser? Wouldn't a shampoo be more effective and convenient anyway?

[Jo Ann]

True but it would be a good scalp cleanser.

I only use baking soda mixed with anti-dandruff shampoo or dish soap when I'm looking to actively fade a semi-permanent hair color. Even diluted with those soaps, I have to do a DT because it's very drying.

Off topic: Why do you start threads about stuff that is drying for hair, such as dishwashing liquid and baking soda?

[cjk]

Acid + base = salt + water

Period

Baking soda is a base. Vinegar is an acid. Combine them and you produce water and a salt.

It is not dilution, it is a chemical reaction. And the resulting chemicals are not good for your hair.

[JennGalt]

*snip*
Off topic: Why do you start threads about stuff that is drying for hair, such as dishwashing liquid and baking soda?

I’d like to know this too. No disrespect—I’m genuinely curious. Most of my curls are much looser than OP’s if left to their own devices (a little bigger than 3b, a little smaller than 3a), but my hair is naturally super dry and porous, so hair care and products for type 4s often work better for me. I can’t even use sulfates without my hair turning into a brittle, tangly, unmanageable mess with loads of breakage, so it’s surprising to me that you’d want to put such drying things on your head. Again, no disrespect meant; I’m just confused and interested in your perspective.

And I realize you say your hair is low-porosity; 4s are typically high porosity, but even low porosity hair can dry out. Particularly if it’s the kinky/coily kind.

[LittleOgre]

The main reason 4c hair tends to be more prone to breakage and damage has less to do with how dry it can be but more to do with how curly it is. Many 4c girls will give false information on how its all about moisture and hydration. Which is true. But that is not the culprit of 4c and that isn't what makes it more vulnerable. 4c hair isn't a desert. It isn't drier than straight hair naturally. Its pretty similar. But through different lifestyle choices. 4c girls tend to avoid water. Which makes their hair drier whilst straight hair girls tend to go towards water. Its just extremely curly.

The only reason giving 4c hair extra moisture and hydration works is simply because the kinks and curls are less likely to cross each other tangle and break. For looser curlier textures. It clumps up more. And does its thing. But in a lot of threads I seen just one measly mistake for long hair loose girls to get their hair in tangles and they immediately loose thickness or length. Now imagine that basically being 4c hair constantly. The care is very different. Well should be different. But it is not. And they think... Its just to dry. I had hair that almost hit my but. But I got tired of the care. I love hair. I love the science. I love trying knew things but for me growing up. The problem was never using things people considered harsh or had to many chemicals. I just liked feeling clean. So I never generally imagined it as a cause for breakage personally. Or something that thins out hair or breaks ends especially since everyone thought I was mixed or had something in my dna to grow hair. But again its the misconception that 4c hair is dry. And people think moisturizing it is what makes it grow. Moisturizing is good but its simple to me. Wash ur hair then moisturize after. I'm guessing you watch YouTube.. All you have to do is see natural curly gurus and you'll notice a similar pattern. The ones with longer hair always keep their hair stretched and never ever let it shrink up to its natural state because once you do that. :) tangles and breakage everywhere. That is the culprit of 4c hair or curly hair in general. My mom just washed my hair with a very drying shampoo and used carrot cream after but never let my hair shrink up completley. For me personally I never seen products as important to how it affected my hair. Which is why I tend to care more about which one cleans my scalp the best lol. Ill add essential oils I've seen differences in that but I just focus on how well it cleans. And just curious about weird ideas. I love hair but there is a point where its not worth it to me lol. Or where I would prefer to feel this way or that way. If that makes sense. I'm the type of girl that generally doesn't have patience with hair but I like it lol. its just curousity, questions, ideas.

[lapushka]

LittleOgre, if you want to do it, then just do it, but you started the threads to open up discussion, so then that's what you'll get (barely anyone is for BS here), but all you seem to want to do is put your foot down and stick to your guns. Well... then just go for it, and don't let us stop you. :flower:

Let us know what concoction you made and how it went!

[Joules]

The main reason 4c hair tends to be more prone to breakage and damage has less to do with how dry it can be but more to do with how curly it is. Many 4c girls will give false information on how its all about moisture and hydration. Which is true. But that is not the culprit of 4c and that isn't what makes it more vulnerable. 4c hair isn't a desert. It isn't drier than straight hair naturally. Its pretty similar. But through different lifestyle choices. 4c girls tend to avoid water. Which makes their hair drier whilst straight hair girls tend to go towards water. Its just extremely curly.

No, that's not how it works. Getting hair wet with water doesn't automatically mean your hair gets moisturized. In fact, it can have quite an opposite effect, in my case just rinsing hair with water without using conditioner will result in a haystack on my head, and I'm not even a proper curly girl, I have type 2B hair. Straight hair is usually less dry than curly because, well, it's straight. Sebum has easier time distributing itself over straight hair and that's what "moisturizes" the hair. That is also why straight hair start to look greasy way faster than curly hair.

Yes, curly hair means it's dry. It also by default means it's weaker than its straight counterpart. Curly and straight hair have structural differences, here's a great artice about why hair curls (https://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/why-hair-curves-waves-and-curls.html), so there's no point in comparing straight and culry hair care routines at all. Extensively moisturizing curly hair makes it less tangly and more flexible, which leads to less breakage and damage. Plus it makes curls look more uniform and less frizzy.

If you want to clean your scalp thoroughly, get yourself a nice cleansing shampoo. Baking soda will destroy not only your hair, but also your scalp's natural barriers, which will become a great breeding groung for all types of bacteria and fungi. Do you want any of that? I doubt it. If you want experiments and new ideas, try different products (I mean actual products for hair made in a lab by people who went to university to learn this stuff) and routines and really get to know your hair. Try to find some more patience, because that's the only way to work with hair. Beating it up into submission never helped anyone, and it never will.

[Joules]

LittleOgre, if you want to do it, then just do it, but you started the threads to open up discussion, so then that's what you'll get (barely anyone is for BS here), but all you seem to want to do is put your foot down and stick to your guns. Well... then just go for it, and don't let us stop you. :flower:

Let us know what concoction you made and how it went!

it's a bit off-topic, but I love how the abbreviation for baking soda sounds :rollin: it describes the whole idea really well :rollin:

[MusicalSpoons]

Joules that article was fascinating! Thank you for linking it.

OP, if you want a good scalp cleanser sulphates are probably your best bet. If you want an exfoliant, maybe a sugar scrub or some other natural exfoliant such as ground seeds or something like that. Your hair probably won't thank you for those either, though. As for baking soda being so alkaline, regardless of how your hair reacts it still would not be good for your scalp, which is naturally acidic and functions best when it's kept close to its natural pH :)

[LittleOgre]

Dry means when your hair lacks liquid aka water. Hydrating your hair which is what I saw as moisturizion meaning it has water in it. Depending on the type of water though that can greatly affect your hair. Kinky hair doesnt get less hydrated than straighter hair textures. The sebum just has a more harder time to coat the hair strands and trap the water in the hair. That is why I never considered kinky hair drier. It just needed help to simply coat hydration as long as you have water and you use it. Oil doesnt hydrate your hair. It costs it. It is like a natural silicone in a way trapping water into your hair and keeping it there. And moisturizion isnt what I noticed is what mattered to curly gurus. It was the amount of slip they got. The more slip they get from a product the less tangles they get. But 100% the greater they leave their hair in its natural state and not being patient with it and not stretching it in some form. That is what does the damage. Kinky hair in itself isn't weak. It is the fact that it is curly that causes it to tnagle and break. And it is the fact that it has a harder time to cover and sustain the water in their hair. That is why. It is not that important to me because it is not a difficult task to accomplish. To simply use water and cover with some sort of barrier and stretch. Or water moisturize that has a barrier within and most importantly stretch. Stretch stretch. People are so focused on moisturizing with kinky hair. That is the easy part. The hard part is making sure your hair does not shrink. And stays stretch in some form or another.

[LittleOgre]

Sorry. Just disagreed is all. Didn't know I had to agree to open a discussion. Just was speaking for baking soda. Because someone gave me a reason to why baking soda was bad and I gave a reason to the possibilities as to why and maybe correct measurements. I like new information so I am open to interpretation but it just seems like people are scared of it. If that makes sense. I'm not the type to ignorantly hold onto something if it doesnt make sense. I could be wrong. I am open but it just seems like fear. More than anything else because its used for volcanic science experienves but my theory to that is if an acid and alkaline substance meets it will always tend to react and then neutralize like how when you vinegar with bentonite clay.

[LittleOgre]

Possibly. It is just an alternative and my mom makes clarifying shampoos and from what i learned they use one thing that people have pointed out baking soda and apple coder vinegar make. Salt water. A lot of shampoos add salt to shampoos in order to make it more thicker. Its just a thought you know. Since people seemed to fear baking soda so much. I could be wrong. Theres only one thing id say I'm suspicious on with baking soda.

[MusicalSpoons]

Possibly. It is just an alternative and my mom makes clarifying shampoos and from what i learned they use one thing that people have pointed out baking soda and apple coder vinegar make. Salt water. A lot of shampoos add salt to shampoos in order to make it more thicker. Its just a thought you know. Since people seemed to fear baking soda so much. I could be wrong. Theres only one thing id say I'm suspicious on with baking soda.

I don't know why salt is in shampoos but I'm certain it's not because it acts as a cleanser. Anyway, you'll usually find sodium chloride as the salt, but reacting other acids and bases won't always give you sodium chloride ... so basically what akurah said.


If you want to wash your hair with sodium acetate, by all means. It’s not likely to actually clean your hair, it’s a salt, not a cleaning agent.

[LittleOgre]

Sodium acetate is a common agent used in skin care products and snacks such and vinegar and salt chips. :) if you look into youtube many people with dreads find that baking soda and apple cider vinegar is one of the few things that actually clean everything in their hair. Many things aren't considered an actual cleaning agent but it is found to be affective. I don't think for me I'd do it but I like to question the common point of view that can be questionable. Salt is in shampoo to thicken the texture. If you have a castille soap. Add a little salt water not to much and you'll find that the texture becomes more gel to a more off whitish look. If you put to much it'll just turn to a soggy mess. Its a theory. That has worked for many people.

[LittleOgre]

https://youtu.be/4zF710t40A8

Video of a girl with long dreads cleaning her hair with vinegar and baking soda

[nycelle]

It sounds like you really want to try it, and no one here is gonna change your mind. So do it and let us know how it goes.

Maybe it won't have a negative effect on your hair, or maybe it will :shrug:

[lapushka]

it's a bit off-topic, but I love how the abbreviation for baking soda sounds :rollin: it describes the whole idea really well :rollin:

What! :shocked: OMG no, that's not what I meant! But gosh LOL! :lol:

[LittleOgre]

Fair enough but I don't. Just was questioning. Who knows lol

[lapushka]

Sorry. Just disagreed is all. Didn't know I had to agree to open a discussion. Just was speaking for baking soda. Because someone gave me a reason to why baking soda was bad and I gave a reason to the possibilities as to why and maybe correct measurements. I like new information so I am open to interpretation but it just seems like people are scared of it. If that makes sense. I'm not the type to ignorantly hold onto something if it doesnt make sense. I could be wrong. I am open but it just seems like fear. More than anything else because its used for volcanic science experienves but my theory to that is if an acid and alkaline substance meets it will always tend to react and then neutralize like how when you vinegar with bentonite clay.

People aren't "scared" of it, the facts are just against it. ;)

[Doreen]

When I go in the ocean my hair becomes dry and crunchy, so I don't really want to recreate the saltwater effect at home. It may have worked for many people but for others it hasn't worked at all. Different strokes for different folks and all that. You seem to have a lot of confidence in baking soda and salt water and if it works well for you or people you know that's great!

[Joules]

Sorry. Just disagreed is all. Didn't know I had to agree to open a discussion. Just was speaking for baking soda. Because someone gave me a reason to why baking soda was bad and I gave a reason to the possibilities as to why and maybe correct measurements. I like new information so I am open to interpretation but it just seems like people are scared of it. If that makes sense. I'm not the type to ignorantly hold onto something if it doesnt make sense. I could be wrong. I am open but it just seems like fear. More than anything else because its used for volcanic science experienves but my theory to that is if an acid and alkaline substance meets it will always tend to react and then neutralize like how when you vinegar with bentonite clay.

Yes, I am personally scared of baking soda, just like I'm scared of bleaching my hair and using heat on it. Because it was proven to be extremely damaging. Is this a good enough reason to stay away from something? Does it really need any further experiments?

By the way, substances that are too acidic (like apple cider vinegar) can be damaging for hair, too. That's why I don't use it at all. There are PH-balanced products readily available for me in any supermarket, why would I want to try something with unknown side-effects?


Possibly. It is just an alternative and my mom makes clarifying shampoos and from what i learned they use one thing that people have pointed out baking soda and apple coder vinegar make. Salt water. A lot of shampoos add salt to shampoos in order to make it more thicker. Its just a thought you know. Since people seemed to fear baking soda so much. I could be wrong. Theres only one thing id say I'm suspicious on with baking soda.

When we're talking about conventional shampoos we have to take into consideration the fact that all of their ingredients are a part of a formula. We can't just say "oh, it contains so-and-so, that's why it's bad". Yes, some shampoos contain sodium chloride for texture, but it means that first of all it's there in miniscule amounts, and secondly that there's another ingredient that neutralizes its effect on hair. Shampoo that's too drying and damaging won't sell. A lot of shampoo also contain citric acid, if you use pure citric acid on your hair it will probably destroy it, but in shampoos it's formulated in a way that is safe for hair.

Please consider the fact that you're not a chemist. People spend years studying this stuff before going on to formulate cosmetic products. If you're still convinced that your theory is correct, then please, go ahead and wash your hair with this concoction, it's your hair after all.

Also, I wouldn't take any hair care tips from people with dreadlocks, unless you want your hair to turn into dreadlocks. They don't care if their hair is ok or not, it's impossible to evaluate its condition anyway since it's all tangled up.

[Alissalocks]

(...aren't the little kid volcano experiments made from mixing baking soda and adding vinegar? Then they explode all over? I swear I remember mixing these ingredients in the back yard for my kid and the neighbor boy about 10 years ago...?)

[Wildcat Diva]

People aren't "scared" of it, the facts are just against it. ;)

Yep, thanks for saying what I was returning here to say.

[LittleOgre]

Your hair will dry out and become crunchy regardless if you swim long periods of time in anything clarifying lol.

[LittleOgre]

I was never talking about using baking soda alone. There is no studies of what a mixture of baking soda and apple cider vinegar would do to hair. I am aware they put citric acid that is what my mom puts in her shampoos to neutralize her shampoos. I am aware that I am not a chemist. I am simply saying the proof that was shown to me was mixed with an alkaline based (baking soda) with a possibly alkaline liquid (water). You can't mixed alkaline with alkaline then say it is damaging... because the ph level is not in a neutral area. Hence why many people who make shampoos use citric acid an acid because the shampoo they use is to alkaline. Shampoo with the best marketing will sell. That is one thing I was taught. The latest trend people are on others will follow to get money. Many many people who make shampoos are no chemist whatsoever. Making shampoo is not some complicated magic that is an impossible task. It's fairly simple. People with dreadlocks still need to take care of their hair because I have seen to many with broken off dreads thinking they can get away with damaging it and it breaks off one by one. All I am saying is... baking soda the problem isn't the ph level because that can be solved. what it produces mixed with vinegar is a salt that is in our food and products. Salt is added into shampoos and regardless doesn't dissapear. I look at facts as well and as long as anyone can give me facts against what I am saying then I will happily forfeit. I'm not trying to be difficult.

[LittleOgre]

Yes it's a chemical reaction that basically forms it into a type of salt. Lol

[LittleOgre]

What are the facts?

[akurah]

There’s probably no facts because science generally doesn’t study things that don’t even have evidence indicating it’s remotely useful for a thing, it’s a waste of money and resources. Salt is not a suitable hair cleanser, and evidence shows that what salts do get in our hair (ex: salt water) is harmful to hair. For example, there’s no studies on the nutritional value of cement because it’s not a food.

[Nightshade]

What are the facts?

The resounding fact is you are being similarly difficult across several threads that you started on similar topics, are not a chemist, have ignored evidence contrary to what you're positing, and your rationale is so stuffed with logical fallacies it's a wonder people are bothering to respond to you.

[LittleOgre]

Welp. Jeez. Sorry. You know what. I won't even bring it up anymore lol. Seems like I'm getting people to upset.

[*Wednesday*]

There are wonderful products for 4 type hair. I'm not sure why people still try baking soda. I keep it in my fridge for freshness.

Good luck.

[Doreen]

I look at facts as well and as long as anyone can give me facts against what I am saying then I will happily forfeit. I'm not trying to be difficult.

Forfeit? Why are you treating this as a fight to be won in the name of baking soda? It seems like you know all the "facts" already so why keep asking people to answer you, only for you to tell them that they are wrong? People have commented their own negative experiences with baking soda and those are also facts. You're entitled to your opinion but so is everyone else. When it comes to your own hair, only you know what's truly best.

[lapushka]

Forfeit? Why are you treating this as a fight to be won in the name of baking soda? It seems like you know all the "facts" already so why keep asking people to answer you, only for you to tell them that they are wrong? People have commented their own negative experiences with baking soda and those are also facts. You're entitled to your opinion but so is everyone else. When it comes to your own hair, only you know what's truly best.

Yes sure, I mean, don't let us stop you from using it.

But do get back to us on how it went - I'm curious.

While every 4/natural is trying to find something hydrating and moisturizing (across the entirety of YT), and non-stripping to try and clean the hair with you seem to want to be doing the exact opposite, which does puzzle me. Why?

[LittleOgre]

Not a fight. A disagreement. I consider facts as any thing that points to evidence... And explanations. Everyone keeps saying baking soda is to alkaline even though i clearly said it needs to be mixed with an acid. They said it looks to dangerous because of the reaction.... Just an opinion and fear. I have no clue. I didnt know those were supposed to be facts. I thought facts were reasonable explanation and evidence. But again ill just be stubborn. So what can I do? Id rather not argue on an argument. I was hoping for a reasonable discussion. ._. But who knows

[MusicalSpoons]

Mixing baking soda with an acid creates a chemical reaction that changes it from sodium bicarbonate into a different chemical (depending on which acid you specifically use) - which changes the parameters of any discussion anyway, surely? Not knowing exactly what the resulting chemicals will do to your hair is a natural basis for caution for most people :shrug:

[The-Young-Maid]

I must say I believe we've given you a reasonable discussion considering your strange fascination with baking soda. Go ahead and try it and see how it works for you. We've given you our own personal experience and science but you haven't yet tried what you're so vehemently defending.:confused:

[nycelle]

The fact is, mixing baking soda with vinegar will create Sodium Acetate, a type of salt. If you're wondering what it is, just do a google search.

So if you think washing with a salt is healthy for your hair, by all means go for it.

[lapushka]

Not a fight. A disagreement. I consider facts as any thing that points to evidence... And explanations. Everyone keeps saying baking soda is to alkaline even though i clearly said it needs to be mixed with an acid. They said it looks to dangerous because of the reaction.... Just an opinion and fear. I have no clue. I didnt know those were supposed to be facts. I thought facts were reasonable explanation and evidence. But again ill just be stubborn. So what can I do? Id rather not argue on an argument. I was hoping for a reasonable discussion. ._. But who knows

Mixing BS with vinegar creates a reaction that is good enough to pour down a drain and clear it out. I wouldn't put it down to "fear". Maybe that's me.

[MusicalSpoons]

The fact is, mixing baking soda with vinegar will create Sodium Acetate, a type of salt. If you're wondering what it is, just do a google search.

So if you think washing with a salt is healthy for your hair, by all means go for it.

I actually did Google sodium acetate after akurah first mentioned it, and it turns out it is used in food! Occasionally, and sparingly (e.g. in salt&vinegar flavouring for crisps). But it's also known as 'hot ice', the stuff in reusable heat pads :laugh: It's not going on my hair, either way.

[littlestarface]

Ooh what fun, You guys sure love replying to this thread so I will too.

[nycelle]

I actually did Google sodium acetate after akurah first mentioned it, and it turns out it is used in food! Occasionally, and sparingly (e.g. in salt&vinegar flavouring for crisps). But it's also known as 'hot ice', the stuff in reusable heat pads :laugh: It's not going on my hair, either way.

yeah, i wouldn't use it on my hair either. but if the op's so interested, then they might as well try. a one time use shouldn't do much damage.

[nycelle]

Ooh what fun, You guys sure love replying to this thread so I will too.

i swear i tried to stay away..;)

[MusicalSpoons]

Mixing BS with vinegar creates a reaction that is good enough to pour down a drain and clear it out. I wouldn't put it down to "fear". Maybe that's me.

In fairness, the effervescence in that reaction is (as far as I remember, way back to chemistry at school) the rapid production of carbon dioxide, so once that's dissipated (evaporated? Sleepy brain here :brains:) it wouldn't have anything to do with the solution used to wash the hair. I'm still not advocating trying it though.

EDIT: I actually wondered about the result of mixing sodium bicarb with citric acid, just because this thread and putting vitamin C in my drinking water earlier sort of kicked my brain into brainfogged-geek mode :hmm: I can do the scientific curiosity bit but not the 'working out the answer' bit :rolleyes:

EDIT 2: I swear I'll shut up in a minute, but I found this (which explains the cleaning out drains use) - carbonic acid!


First, there is a double displacement reaction in which acetic acid in the vinegar reacts with sodium bicarbonate to form sodium acetate and carbonic acid:

NaHCO3 + HC2H3O2 → NaC2H3O2 + H2CO3

Carbonic acid is unstable and undergoes a decomposition reaction to produce the carbon dioxide gas:

H2CO3 → H2O + CO2

The carbon dioxide escapes the solution as bubbles.

From this webpage (https://www.thoughtco.com/equation-for-the-reaction-of-baking-soda-and-vinegar-604043)

Seriously brain, stop now. :crazyq:

[akurah]

Not a fight. A disagreement. I consider facts as any thing that points to evidence... And explanations. Everyone keeps saying baking soda is to alkaline even though i clearly said it needs to be mixed with an acid. They said it looks to dangerous because of the reaction.... Just an opinion and fear. I have no clue. I didnt know those were supposed to be facts. I thought facts were reasonable explanation and evidence. But again ill just be stubborn. So what can I do? Id rather not argue on an argument. I was hoping for a reasonable discussion. ._. But who knows

Even with your clarification, you’re ignoring the fact that the byproduct is salt and we’ve been talking about salt on hair and how it’s problematic and instead of discussing THAT you’re doubling down on saying we’re wrong with the argument of “where’s the evidence?” regarding this specific salt when there’s probably none because scientists generally don’t study useless things, such as that specific salt in hair, because there’s also pretty significant evidence already that any salt isn’t great for your hair.

[Doreen]

I must say I believe we've given you a reasonable discussion considering your strange fascination with baking soda. Go ahead and try it and see how it works for you. We've given you our own personal experience and science but you haven't yet tried what you're so vehemently defending.:confused:
^^


LittleOgre, what is your goal with this discussion? Are you trying to get us to consider baking soda as a prominent option? (Doesn't seem to be happening.) Are you wanting us to recommend you to use it and tell you it will work great, along with the Dawn dish soap? (Again, do what you want with your own hair, no one here can stop you.)

The reaction will strip the oils from your hair. If that's what you want, then yes it could be the perfect thing for you. That's not what I want, or what most people want, so I have no desire to try it.

[JennGalt]

*snip*

While every 4/natural is trying to find something hydrating and moisturizing (across the entirety of YT), and non-stripping to try and clean the hair with you seem to want to be doing the exact opposite, which does puzzle me. Why?

I’m starting to think trolling may be the motivation here, or perhaps a desire for attention. It seems OP isn’t interested in anything that doesn’t jive with her (or his? I’m just assuming OP is female. Apologies if my assumption was incorrect.) desire to use baking soda as part of a hair care routine no matter who or how many people advise against it and state why or cite evidence as to why it’s not advisable. Honestly, I think this thread just needs to be disregarded and allowed to die.

:horse:

[LittleOgre]

I already discussed that as well but it got faded out by all the comments lol

[LittleOgre]

I didn't have any goal. It was simply curiosity. That turned into something for the worse. Lets just allow this to settle. I don't see this turning into anything peaceful at all.

[LittleOgre]

It was simply a discussion out of curosity but I dont think most people can handle disagreements. It just turns into something heated. Rather than curiosity. I'm used to disagreeing with people but for most people. 😐 it turns into something with bad energy. All because one person disagrees and is curious

[cjk]

No. I don't think that's it.

We often have disagreements on this site. We discuss it, the relative merits, the potential pitfalls, anecdotal evidence and so forth.

You did not discuss. You dismissed. You wouldn't even accept the basic chemistry, mixing baking soda and an acid like vinegar does not dilute it. It causes an exothermic chemical reaction resulting in water and a salt.

Being dismissive and excusing facts is not a discussion, it is not provocative, it is just making trouble.

[*Wednesday*]

Edited:

I don't think this conversation is meant to go anywhere. OP is looking for an argument.

[trolleypup]

Discussing thoughts and ideas is fun, but at some point you need to put those ideas to the test and see what happens...unless you are more interested in the "discussion" than the thought experiment. One of the nice things about LHC is that lots of people have tried lots of things, usually multiple times, so direct experience and experimentation are available to learn from, and maybe even save the trouble of fruitless experiment. Of course, these same people have probably also already had the exact same discussion a few times in the past, so they don't feel any need to have an extended discussion.

You could also study some basic chemistry to learn about how pH works, and how dilution works with weak bases, and even how weak bases and weak acids react...some pretty cool stuff going on there.

[Ylva]

But what is there to still "disagree" about?

edit: A bit outdated message, as plenty of others were posted in between.

[Joules]

While every 4/natural is trying to find something hydrating and moisturizing (across the entirety of YT), and non-stripping to try and clean the hair with you seem to want to be doing the exact opposite, which does puzzle me. Why?

Because according to LittleOgre curly hair (especially type 4) isn't dry :bluebiggr


Not a fight. A disagreement. I consider facts as any thing that points to evidence... And explanations. Everyone keeps saying baking soda is to alkaline even though i clearly said it needs to be mixed with an acid. They said it looks to dangerous because of the reaction.... Just an opinion and fear. I have no clue. I didnt know those were supposed to be facts. I thought facts were reasonable explanation and evidence. But again ill just be stubborn. So what can I do? Id rather not argue on an argument. I was hoping for a reasonable discussion. ._. But who knows

I'll attempt to say something one last time: baking soda might be cleansing because it's alkaline, it raises hair's cuticles and strips it of any bit of oil it has. It cleans it and simultaneously damages it. If you mix baking soda with apple cider vinegar it will stop being baking soda and turn into something else, it's like magic (I hope you're above the age of 17, or you'll be expelled from Hogwarts). It will turn into salt and water, and salt is inherently drying. Those are pure facts against this method of washing, no fear at all. I don't know what else you need.

Again, if you mix baking soda with vinegar your baking soda will disappear along with its properties, that's why the whole idea is useless at best.

[lapushka]

LittleOgre, are you going to try Dawn or Baking Soda? You seem to want to. Keep us posted on how it goes.

What does your wash routine look like right now? Exact products and such, please, because now you got my attention. :)

[Maelyssa]

Discussing thoughts and ideas is fun, but at some point you need to put those ideas to the test and see what happens...unless you are more interested in the "discussion" than the thought experiment. One of the nice things about LHC is that lots of people have tried lots of things, usually multiple times, so direct experience and experimentation are available to learn from, and maybe even save the trouble of fruitless experiment. Of course, these same people have probably also already had the exact same discussion a few times in the past, so they don't feel any need to have an extended discussion.

You could also study some basic chemistry to learn about how pH works, and how dilution works with weak bases, and even how weak bases and weak acids react...some pretty cool stuff going on there.

I'd love to see video evidence of this experiment as I vividly recall mixing baking soda with an acid in school to create a volcano...would love to see that play out.

:D Just saying... :D

[lapushka]

LittleOgre, how's wash day gone? What all have you tried? I'm curious to see what you ended up washing with and what your results were.

[Sarahlabyrinth]

I'm curious to know too.

[Eve-Jade-Day]

Seems like it didn't go very well.

Baking soda is harsh! I remember mixing it with H2O2 to lighten my hair, and it turned to straw.

If OP wants a natural alternative to shampoo, they could try clay washes. (Although they tend to weight my hair down after I while)

[lapushka]

Seems like it didn't go very well.

That's exactly what I was asking and what we don't know. It could take a while for OP to get back to us. :flower:

[LittleOgre]

I did try it and so did my mother and it didn't do anything to our hair. It cleaned her scalp so well she was constantly telling me the whole day she never felt her scalp being so clean in a long time. That could be due to the fact that she mostly uses moisturizing shampoos that are silicone free. So she never had build up but it never properly cleaned her scalp and she has very very thick hair. So she felt a breeze using the mixture. For me I didn't like it because although my scalp felt nice and clean and my hair felt nice. Its just... Inconveniant. It worked well but I'm to lazy and I prefer to use my 2 dollar clarifying shampoo with my essential oils and menthol. I didnt answer this thread because everyone said I was looking for an arguement and I might be a troll. I got tired of the accusations and just ignored this thread all together. I'm just a very curious person and like to try new things. It wasn't necessarily for a regimen just a curiosity since so many people fear baking soda.

[LittleOgre]

I tried the dawn dish soap as well. Partially on my hair and it made my hair feel soft in a scary way. So I didn't use it lol all the way. And I do a onion/garlic/ cayenne juice apply it to my scalp leave it on for 20-30 minutes. Then wash my hair with a 2 dollar clarifying shampoo that I added essential oils to with some menthol. To make it stimulating and cool. Sometimes ill do a deep condition after. Sometimes ill just stick with a leave in conditioner or oil. No specific products. I make them myself. Then I just just use a hair dryer because I get sick easily. So I want my scalp immediately dry. And let the rest air dry depending on my moo.

[lapushka]

I did try it and so did my mother and it didn't do anything to our hair. It cleaned her scalp so well she was constantly telling me the whole day she never felt her scalp being so clean in a long time. That could be due to the fact that she mostly uses moisturizing shampoos that are silicone free. So she never had build up but it never properly cleaned her scalp and she has very very thick hair. So she felt a breeze using the mixture. For me I didn't like it because although my scalp felt nice and clean and my hair felt nice. Its just... Inconveniant. It worked well but I'm to lazy and I prefer to use my 2 dollar clarifying shampoo with my essential oils and menthol. I didnt answer this thread because everyone said I was looking for an arguement and I might be a troll. I got tired of the accusations and just ignored this thread all together. I'm just a very curious person and like to try new things. It wasn't necessarily for a regimen just a curiosity since so many people fear baking soda.


I tried the dawn dish soap as well. Partially on my hair and it made my hair feel soft in a scary way. So I didn't use it lol all the way. And I do a onion/garlic/ cayenne juice apply it to my scalp leave it on for 20-30 minutes. Then wash my hair with a 2 dollar clarifying shampoo that I added essential oils to with some menthol. To make it stimulating and cool. Sometimes ill do a deep condition after. Sometimes ill just stick with a leave in conditioner or oil. No specific products. I make them myself. Then I just just use a hair dryer because I get sick easily. So I want my scalp immediately dry. And let the rest air dry depending on my moo.

I think sticking to shampoo might be better for all-over pH levels as well, but that's just MHO.

Well I do appreciate you getting back to us. Can you tell there's few fans of baking soda here? ;)

I think the clarifying shampoo might not only be the easiest solution, but might be better for overall scalp-health. You could probably, if you want, do a BS wash yearly, but it's up to you.

I remember when I first got here and sulfates weren't that "popular", and neither were "silicones". I'm glad it has all changed to YMMV, your mileage may vary. You do *you*. :flower:

[LittleOgre]

Yes I can tell for sure lol. I dont think its the ph level of baking soda that is whats damaging. I think its how powerful and precise it is as an exfoliator to a very micro.... Specific target that possibly damages hair cuticles. The texture of baking soda is very different from anything really. And I saw am article where it says baking soda can permanently damage your skin. Not because of the ph level itself. I offered my mom to use a clarifying shampoo onstead after that because although I do believe my theory was correct. I do think baking soda is damaging but not because of the ph level itself. I think it helped her a lot because the crystals did most of the scrubbing power for her. A clarifying shampoo could help in that arena. That is another theory at least on baking soda. I could be incorrect. Wish I could take a hair strand and use a microscope to analyze the effects lol. The clarifying shampoo gets my hair very clean. I wanted thick dreadlocks originally but I dont think you could ever clean it probably without doing some kind of soak. So I got fairly thin ones where I see through each loc if I wanted to. Nothing can hide. I tried the soak as well and it didn't do much of anything. I didnt sre any dirt. Which i was glad of. But I think its the act of scrubbing baking soda against ur hair. Not the ph level.

[Cymiri]

OP, it's the alkalinity that's damaging. Yes, undisolved crystals can *also* be abrasive, but that is a different matter. Anything rough will do the same.

Please see this, rather scary, picture of what a hair swelling in a baking soda solution looks like, as you asked for one. Someone has already done that experiment:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FuuUngar4rY/UxjQoYbym-I/AAAAAAAAAzY/EQXP0YcKke8/s1600/baking_soda.jpg

It is from this post on the Scienc-y hair blog:
https://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2014/03/managing-elasticity-and-porosity-in-hair.html

From this post on the same blog [https://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/moisturizing-low-porosity-hair.html] , I copy paste you a discussion of the use of alkaline solutions on hair, including explinations of why people get results they like sometimes, while it still is doing damage. It also explains why it appears to help curls, while still doing damage. Note my repetative statement- it still does damage. *anything* alkaline will make the naturally slightly acidic hair strand swell up, per the picture above, and baking soda makes an alkaline solution. The science is actually that simple. You may like the result you get depending on your hair and your needs, but it will *still do damage*. It may simply be that the mechanisim of that damage occuring creates an effect you like, just as some people still heat dry and stuff. YMMV as they say. But that does not magically undo the science of how stuff works.

I personally owuld not risk the damage for any effect. But I am only me and not anyone else.

<start>
Alkaline solutions: But promise to do a test strand first and pay close attention to how your hair responds. Baking soda mixed with conditioner or water at whatever concentration works for you. These can temporarily (and permanently) alter your hair's porosity and may change surface texture. But there's more to baking soda than porosity...

The probable explanation for the positive result some people get with baking soda mixtures is related to surface chemistry as well as porosity. The alkaline baking soda solution likely disrupts or breaks down the "F layer" containing 18-MEA (the lipid-rich epicuticle - see the beginning of this post). Once this has happened, the hair is no longer as hydrophobic (water-repelling). Hair becomes more hydrophilic (water-attracting). It becomes wet more easily. There is a disrupted lipid barrier (the epicuticle is degraded or removed) that was slowing the movement of water in and out. As a result, the hair will bond with more of whichever cationic conditioner you apply. At least the first time you use conditioner after the alkaline treatment. This still isn't porosity, it's surface chemistry. You lose the natural lipid layer and replace it with commercial conditioner. Conditioners have different textural and aesthetic qualities from the oils that were on your hair before.
Alkaline baking soda solutions and soap bar lather cause hair to swell. Anything you want to get into your hair shaft needs to be in this solution or applied immediately after. Once you rinse, your hair begins to return to its non-swollen state.
Some people report a similar effect with bleached or highlighted hair - that it holds a curl better as a result of the treatment - and for very similar reasons. Sometimes alkaline solutions give hair a slippery feeling - alkaline solutions tend to feel slippery in general - they're dissolving the oils on your hair and skin, sort of turning them into soap. It's a similar chemical process. After repeated use, alkaline solutions may leave your hair more porous overall because there is exchange of solutes in the hair for alkaline solution while the alkaline solution is on your hair. Proceed with caution when using acids and alkaline ingredients on your hair and scalp. If you notice a problem, please consider taking a break from these ingredients, or try one of the next tips to buffer the effects of baking soda...
Mix your baking soda with yogurt (unflavored, unsweetened) to take advantage of yogurt's hydrating qualities, some of the smaller proteins and amino acids and lactic acid (and other acids) and unique lipids from the milk. Yogurt bring the pH down to closer to 7, but still causes some swelling of the hair. Rinse really well to avoid stinky yogurt-hair later on!
Mix your baking soda with conditioner to buffer the hair a little - this does protect the hair a little.
Use shampoo bars or superfatted bar soap instead of liquid castile soap - the oils help protect your hair by adding lubrication.
If you use liquid castile soap, dilute it with water and add a little oil for lubrication.
<end>

[LittleOgre]

Baking soda solution is no longer alkaline when you mix it with acidic which is why I'm saying the ph level has nothing to do with it. The blogspot mixed an alkaline baking sods with water which can be just as alkaline! You can't mix alkaline with alkaline and expect a neutralized mixture

[Cymiri]

On the topic of not magically undoing the science of how stuff works, you seem to be a little focused on the idea that baking soda would be great if only it's alkalinity could be lowered.

You can't lower it's alkalinity and it still be the same thing. Chemistry literally won't allow that. There's a reason certain substances end up with the pH they do - it's part of the chemical profile that lets them be them. You can't acidise traditional soap either, for example. Or castile soap. The process of lowering them away from their natural pH starts changing the chemical bonds between atoms in their makeup and they become something else. Protein is the same- acidise protein too much and it denatures. Instead of little pieces of protein, the bonds uncurl and make something else.


That's why soaps and shampoos that are advertised as 'pH 5.5' are not traditional soaps [lye+ash+oil]. They use synthetic surfacents that do their best cleaning work at that pH instead. So they do the same job, but are totally different chemical stuff.

We sometimes can get away with diluting stuff to get the same effect the non-dilute stuff has, but less of it. You effecitvly make *stuff* floating in a water matrix. But that's *only* if the stuff doesn't chemically interact with the water. Otherwise you do run the chance of making a totally different thing.


Any product, regardless of what it is, could be useful to people as is, or it could be useful as a reaction with something occurs, or the byproduct could be useful.

Baking soda is useful as-is for a variety of stuff that are not hair
Sometimes the reaction is useful- for example, the famous 'volcano' action where it reatis vigorously with an acid to form a salt and water with CO2 as a byproduct. It's useful in drain cleaning because that violet gas release can budge clogs, and the byproduct can scour them.
The byproduct is not typically useful, as it's just salt and water.

[akurah]

Baking soda solution is no longer alkaline when you mix it with acidic which is why I'm saying the ph level has nothing to do with it. The blogspot mixed an alkaline baking sods with water which can be just as alkaline! You can't mix alkaline with alkaline and expect a neutralized mixture

It stops being baking soda, and the byproduct is a salt.

[Cymiri]

OP. Water is not alkaline. It is pH NEUTRAL. That specifically means it is neither basic not alkaline.

Again I say, you add anything to baking soda to lower it's pH without turning it into something else because of chemistry.

Strictly speaking, in lab terms, the baking soda sitting in a box in your cupboard has no pH [it is actually way more complicated then this, but whatever]. pH is the percentage hydrogen *in an aqueous solution* [i.e when wet, when mixed with water]

Baking soda mixed in water isn't even strictly baking soda. Some of the baking soda reacts with the water to make something that, chemically speaking, is a different product. When you make a 'paste' to put on hair though, you leave a lot of unreacted baking soda because there's more of it then the water and the water 'runs out' before it all changes.


It only gets alkaline when mixed in *water* because the chemical soup you get sitting in that cup works out to have the relevant % hydrogen to match that point in the scale.

An acid reacts more violently then water, because it's further away from baking soda chemically. Vinegar [acetic acid] is C2H4O2, for example. These combine much more violently and end up changing around atoms, bonds and more to form different products [i.e the salt and CO2 and water you've heard again and again here] Salt in water has a totally different pH. *That's* why the pH changes... because it's a different chemical soup.

You are trying to make pH a math problem- that if you just get a low and a high you can make a lower number then a high and a higher. This isn't math- it's chemistry. The pH is more of a byproduct of what's happening then the driving force.

You can't mix an acid with baking soda and expect 'acid baking soda'. You will get a different product. Because baking soda is only baking soda when the right number of atoms of the right things are present in a certain order, and the second you add that acid it will distrub and change the chemical bonds between atoms until it stabalises - at which point be a different substance, with different numbers of the chemicals rearranged differently.

[lapushka]

These explanations are all very interesting to me. Cymiri, thank you so much for posting this!!! I wouldn't argue with science, LittleOgre. :flower:

[Cymiri]

I actually went to go look up the formula for you, as that may help. It's clear that you are not well versed in chemistry [which is fine, we all have our strengths- I just happened to work in a lab for years]

Look closely at both sides of the = . You'll see there's the same number of Na [sodium] C [carbon] O [Oxygen] and H [hydrogen] atoms... but they are in totally different combinations i.e they are different things. It's not acetic acid + baking soda = acid baking soda. it's acetic acid + baking soda = Carbon dioxide and water and sodium acetate.

Sodium acetate is not a surfacent and has no cleaning properties relevant to making hair clean. Water is water, and carbon dioxide also has no cleaning value. So it's not anything worth persuing.


Writeup is from here: https://www.thoughtco.com/equation-for-the-reaction-of-baking-soda-and-vinegar-604043

<start>
How the Reaction Works

The reaction between baking soda and vinegar actually occurs in two steps, but the overall process can be summarized by the following word equation: baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) plus vinegar (acetic acid) yields carbon dioxide plus water plus sodium ion plus acetate ion

The chemical equation for the overall reaction is:

NaHCO3(s) + CH3COOH(l) → CO2(g) + H2O(l) + Na+(aq) + CH3COO-(aq)

with s = solid, l = liquid, g = gas, aq = aqueous or in water solution

The chemical reaction actually occurs in two steps. First, there is a double displacement reaction in which acetic acid in the vinegar reacts with sodium bicarbonate to form sodium acetate and carbonic acid:

NaHCO3 + HC2H3O2 → NaC2H3O2 + H2CO3

Carbonic acid is unstable and undergoes a decomposition reaction to produce the carbon dioxide gas:

H2CO3 → H2O + CO2

The carbon dioxide escapes the solution as bubbles. The bubbles are heavier than air, so the carbon dioxide collects at the surface of the container or overflows it. In a baking soda volcano, detergent usually is added to collect the gas and form bubbles that flow somewhat like lava down the side of the 'volcano.' A dilute sodium acetate solution remains after the reaction. If the water is boiled off of this solution, a supersaturated solution of sodium acetate forms. This "hot ice" will spontaneously crystallize, releasing heat and forming a solid that resembles water ice.

<end>

[Ylva]

I remember when I first got here and sulfates weren't that "popular", and neither were "silicones". I'm glad it has all changed to YMMV, your mileage may vary. You do *you*. :flower:

Haha, I have always felt the opposite, not only here but in general, too. That people always try to push sulfates and silicones on everyone. :D

[Cymiri]

These explanations are all very interesting to me. Cymiri, thank you so much for posting this!!! I wouldn't argue with science, LittleOgre. :flower:

I...um... well... you may note that I didn't really get invited to all the cool parties as a kid lol. But gosh darn it I larned me some science!

Glad it's of interest to someone! I get easily over-excited by nerdy stuff lol

[littlestarface]

I...um... well... you may note that I didn't really get invited to all the cool parties as a kid lol. But gosh darn it I larned me some science!

Glad it's of interest to someone! I get easily over-excited by nerdy stuff lol

So would you know what happens when someone tries to dilute baking soda with vinegar and adds it to their hair?

Cuz she keeps going on about how adding vinegar to it will make it more ph balanced for hair.

[MusicalSpoons]

So would you know what happens when someone tries to dilute baking soda with vinegar and adds it to their hair?

Cuz she keeps going on about how adding vinegar to it will make it more ph balanced for hair.

Cymiri posted the equations and explanation for exactly that. I seem to recall doing exactly the same several pages back albeit in slightly less detail; perhaps this time OP may take notice :shrug:

ETA Cymiri the surface chemistry explanation was fascinating, thanks for posting it! I'd forgotten the relevant pics were on the Science-y hair blog.

[lapushka]

I...um... well... you may note that I didn't really get invited to all the cool parties as a kid lol. But gosh darn it I larned me some science!

Glad it's of interest to someone! I get easily over-excited by nerdy stuff lol

Thanks for posting more! I love it, even though it goes above my head a bit (I have to admit, I am no science major). At least I can understand that you can't mix BS + ACV and expect the pH to be balanced out and the product to still be the same. I mean, that's about abundantly clear now!

[*Wednesday*]

LittleOgre. You mentioned you have locs. I know many people who loc their hair will use a baking soda recipe (see YT link). If this was your argument I can understand. However, most people I'v heard do this (with locs), don't do it often. Some as often as once a mouth, some three times a year. Honestly, since your hair has loc's, I would do some research what is best for your hair type. If you are looking to get very long loc's, be careful.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns3VXi-VsmE

[LittleOgre]

Hello Cynthia thanks for replying. This is really interesting and something I was curious about but id have to disagree with the idea that ALL water is neutral. A lot of water is alkaline. The ph level of all kinds od water is not the same. That is why you will have water advertised with the oh level of 8 or 9. Some water has the on of 7 or 6. There are people who compare brands of water based on the ph level. So not all water is the same in ph level. And yes you can change the ph level of a lot of things. Castile soap is a great example of that. Specifically Dr.Bronners. they use citric acid in their soaps because the finishing products ends up being to Alkaline to which they add an acid such as citrus acid to neutralize the ph level.

[LittleOgre]

Hello Cynthia. I'm already away aware of this. Of course it is not ADVERTISED as a surfuctant but for many people and through experience myself it works just as well as a cleaning product for the scalp. I dont think it is the ph level that is the problem. I can be proven wrong but when you told me that water is neutral. I am doubting that I can take your word just like that. At first coming on this thread I thought you might have an explanation but I still would have to say I'd have to disagree. If you work at a lab for years. How do you not know that water varies in ph level? And how are you not aware that many soap companies have to use an acid to neutralize there soaps because it is to Alkaline.

[LittleOgre]

I feel the same way. I was never ever the cool kid. I always asked questions and wanted to understand things. Most people found that uncool. :)

[LittleOgre]

I think the soak is best done on thicker locs. My locs are to thin. So washing it with clarifying soaps cleans it enough. I tried that once and it was a waste of time and energy. Nothing was stuck in my hair. Since I decided to get thinner locs I have to be careful. Not like extremely careful but I have to pretty much make sure its moisturized and good to go so it doesnt break off. I had a few ends break off due to me putting pure baking soda with water. Ive done enough research. Thanks for the reccomendation. I feel pretty confident in what i need. :)

[lapushka]

Well LittleOgre, if you won't believe anything scientific, there is fairly little we can do and it would be pointless to carry on the conversation, just MHO.

[MusicalSpoons]

Hello Cynthia thanks for replying. This is really interesting and something I was curious about but id have to disagree with the idea that ALL water is neutral. A lot of water is alkaline. The ph level of all kinds od water is not the same. That is why you will have water advertised with the oh level of 8 or 9. Some water has the on of 7 or 6. There are people who compare brands of water based on the ph level. So not all water is the same in ph level. And yes you can change the ph level of a lot of things. Castile soap is a great example of that. Specifically Dr.Bronners. they use citric acid in their soaps because the finishing products ends up being to Alkaline to which they add an acid such as citrus acid to neutralize the ph level.

Not Cymiri here, but just wanted to pipe up to say I only recently learned about different pH of water from reading around about hard water (and I was shocked to read people get green or orange scum from elements dissolved in the water - I've never heard of that happening over here).

Btw, someone who works in a lab - in reference to your comment after the one I've quoted above - would most likely be dealing with distilled water, which is neutral :flower:

You make an interesting point about companies adjusting the pH of their products - that's something I'll have to read up on, but my instinct tells me that works because it's in a formulation of lots of different chemicals. You seemed to be talking about a straight mix of baking soda and vinegar, for which the equations and explanations have already been given.

[LittleOgre]

Scientific involves referencing studies evidenve etc. I am all for facts but saying you can't change a ph level or water is neutral isnt a fact. There is no reference so it can be challenged. I could say the same thing about baking soda mixed with apple cider vinegar which cynthia said produces a form of salt. She says its not considered a surfactant. I agree. It is not considered a surfactant like a lot of natural things many people use that they consider to clean there scalp. I feel there is a fine of bias. I have no issue being wrong but I feel there is a distorted view on science and facts are. Using ur background to say every thing you say is correct and can't be questioned is very unscientific. This of course will get people upset.

I will admit I do think there is a possibility baking soda is damaging but I have a feeling it isn't the ph level.

I'm not sure on a scientific level. It should be fairly obvious that ph level can be adjusted but you have to understand how to adjust it. Maybe I should get some ph strips and see if I can show you guys.

[LittleOgre]

Making soap is more simple than you think. I people its fear mongering. All you have to do is research yourself on how soap is made and you'll realize it isn't magic. Ive made soap myself and my mom makes it. It saves money. Everything is a chemical. Water is a chemical. We are all big forms of chemicals. There was already an explanation by cynthia on what baking soda and apple cider vinegar forms. It isn't harmful. Maybe drying to many people. But not any more damaging than scrubbing your hair. Its hard for me to consider he rpoints if she is first telling me water can not be alkaline and ph levels can no be adjusted in soaps. Its a bit odd. Someone who works in a lab doesnt know this. Distilled water of course can have a neutral ph level but not all water is neutral.

[lapushka]

Scientific involves referencing studies evidenve etc. I am all for facts but saying you can't change a ph level or water is neutral isnt a fact. There is no reference so it can be challenged. I could say the same thing about baking soda mixed with apple cider vinegar which cynthia said produces a form of salt. She says its not considered a surfactant. I agree. It is not considered a surfactant like a lot of natural things many people use that they consider to clean there scalp. I feel there is a fine of bias. I have no issue being wrong but I feel there is a distorted view on science and facts are. Using ur background to say every thing you say is correct and can't be questioned is very unscientific. This of course will get people upset.

Errr... huh? I'm sorry but this makes *no* sense - at all!

[LittleOgre]

I'm sorry about that. My English can be quite misunderstood! What I meant to say is. When it comes to what science is and factual evidence that anyone would consider scientific. You can not simply make a statement and call it science. It involves studies, references, etc. I am all for scientific information but saying the ph level of all water is neutral and it can't be varied isn't science. Its a statement that needs to proven. It can't be proven behind experienve or a degree. Or else anyone in any professional position can simply take advantage of people simply because they take their word. There is no reference or study to back up what was said so it could be challenged to which I challenged it. I could say the same thing about a lot of statements and claims she made on ph level adjustments, what soapmakers do, does a base and a acid neutral the ph level, and if the mixture of apple cider vinegar and baking soda can be a good scalp cleanser for many people. I have no issue at all with being wrong but I feel there is a distorted view on what scientific facts are. Using your backround and/or experience as a way of saying everything you say is correct and can't be questioned is very unscientific. This of course will upset people. No one can ever master a field. We constantly learn and readjust. Those who feel they have finished learning. Are at a point of arrogance. Learning is a constant lifetime commitment. So yes there are always people who may understand parts of what you might not understand or who could possibly be right regardless of your background. If you didnt understand anything. Just point it out so I can rephrase.

[lapushka]

I'm sorry here, but people have given you links to actually prove things.

:no:

At this point I do think this thread has run its course.

LittleOgre, I feel that you just want to be right and will not accept other information if anything goes against your beliefs. Because you have not come with scientific evidence, you have come with "beliefs" solely, so then "attacking" someone else's view seems a bit... much.

[Ylva]

You can question something as much as you like, but for as long as evidence stands for x, your y will not be considered correct until you provide evidence for it. You may have a theory about something, but there are many factors which you may not have considered with regards to it that would make your point invalid in the face of science.

[MusicalSpoons]

I'm sorry about that. My English can be quite misunderstood! What I meant to say is. When it comes to what science is and factual evidence that anyone would consider scientific. You can not simply make a statement and call it science. It involves studies, references, etc. I am all for scientific information but saying the ph level of all water is neutral and it can't be varied isn't science. Its a statement that needs to proven. It can't be proven behind experienve or a degree. Or else anyone in any professional position can simply take advantage of people simply because they take their word. There is no reference or study to back up what was said so it could be challenged to which I challenged it. I could say the same thing about a lot of statements and claims she made on ph level adjustments, what soapmakers do, does a base and a acid neutral the ph level, and if the mixture of apple cider vinegar and baking soda can be a good scalp cleanser for many people. I have no issue at all with being wrong but I feel there is a distorted view on what scientific facts are. Using your backround and/or experience as a way of saying everything you say is correct and can't be questioned is very unscientific. This of course will upset people. No one can ever master a field. We constantly learn and readjust. Those who feel they have finished learning. Are at a point of arrogance. Learning is a constant lifetime commitment. So yes there are always people who may understand parts of what you might not understand or who could possibly be right regardless of your background. If you didnt understand anything. Just point it out so I can rephrase.

Wait, what? Nobody said any such thing. I interpreted it as context, with quite the opposite intention - to point out that she's not expecting everybody to automatically know this stuff :chillpill:

The equations and explanations posted ARE the science, they ARE the facts. Mixing the chemicals in question will not give a different result. As for the surfactant issue, here's a link to the chemical properties of sodium acetate: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/Sodium_acetate and here's a quick, basic overview of surfactants:

Surfactants function by breaking down the interface between water and oils and/or dirt. They also hold these oils and dirt in suspension, and so allow their removal. They are able to act in this way because they contain both a hydrophilic (water loving) group, such as an acid anion, (-CO2- or SO3-) and a hydrophobic (water hating) group, such as an alkyl chain. from here: http://www.essentialchemicalindustry.org/materials-and-applications/surfactants.html
If you really want to prove that sodium acetate is a surfactant, please feel free to attempt it! There's already been given an explanation why there is whatever effect with baking soda due to it interacting with the hair shaft.

I'm dizzy from all the circles this thread is going in so I'm off to bed :sleep:

[Cymiri]

Lol... you are quite determined to be wrong, no? Your rudeness is uncalled for, however.

Sweets, water is pH NEUTRAL. 7. Full stop. As someone else mentioned, that is typically called 'distilled water'. HARD water, or MINERAL SPRING water, or SOFT water may be at a different pH due to the mineral ADDITIVES in the water. Heck, I put citric acid in water to bring it to pH 5 for use on my burned skin. Doesn't make it plain water at a different pH though. It's adulterated by the presence of another chemical component. Water... H2O unadulterated with anything- is pH 7.

And no, soap companies cannot and do not acidise their products. They use pH buffers to minimally adjust the product's pH range. It's the same thing you will see in, say, Glycolic acid toners for the face, where they either want to make a product less harsh [move it's pH closer to 7 either way] or put it in a range where it works the best [some active ingredients and preservatives]

When a small amount of pH buffer is used, it is used at the expense of some of the product. They sacrifice some of the molecules in the product reacting to bring it to a better place for use for its purpose. If you want to have fun some day, pour out some castile soap, grab some citric acid, and keep adding and mixing... it will begin to go oddly glassy as you pass pH6, at which point it will no longer do the job of soap either. You have just denatured soap totally! Dr Bronners obviously do not denature *all* of their product, but they will use limited amounts of citric acid to adjust the pH, yes. As anyone who makes soap knows, if you over-do that you get a useless product.

Many products are happy to have part of the product denatured in order to adjust the pH. In other words, they are happy for a portion of the product to become water+salt if that means everything else in it does a better job. It's a swings-and-roundabouts balance, and part of why product formulation is so hard.

You can do that in a product with many ingredients, or a ton of one ingredient where you can sacrifice some [but it is limited, as with traditional soap and the pH 6 boundry].

You're talking about a two ingredient reaction, however. If you genuinely mix baking soda and vinegar together and get an acid solution via your pH strip, do you know what you have? You have a lot of water and salt and some unreacted dilute vinegar. Just use an ACV rinse if that's what you want. You haven't... and really, you've been told this enough now.. made magic sparkly acidic baking soda. No, it didn't clean anything, because baking soda would have to be in an alkaline range to do that. No, you haven't confounded the nasty horrible scientists. You've done a basic reaction that kids in school are encouraged to explore.

Seriously, organic skincare is massive right now. If this was possible, one of the many, many R&D people in labs worldwide would have produced an acidic baking soda product. They don't, because they know it's bad hair and body care. Baking soda will continue to have a good, firm spot in the lab though... and that's as a pH buffer to slightly alkalinise solutions as needed.

*However*....dun...dun...dun

I've only wasted my time explaining that for the benifit of the awesome peeps here who do want to understand and don't have the same background as me. And who haven't been extremely rude to me in pursuit of clinging to a scientifically impossible stance.

It's very clear that you, personally, OP, are firmly stuck in your odd idea, and do not [which is ok as we all have different strengths] and wilfully will not [which is not, ignorance is just..megh] address the scientific ignorance that challenges it. That's ok... you do you. Wreck your hair with absolutely not acidic Baking Soda, or wash your hair with magic vinegar salt water... you will likely get some positive result there as I know some folks do 'wash' with ACV rinses and are happy with it, but really it's just easier to use ACV as it's a better pH and much simpler, and doesn't have the uneccessary salt.

Everyone else, I pinky swear I am not working for 'Big Science'... I'm just a chemistry nerd who thought I was helping someone with a genuine query :)


PS: Please look carefully at my name. It's not Cynthia. I'll also be sure to let my bosses know I can no longer work in developmental chemistry here as some person on the internet who didn't like being told her idea was scientifically wrong said I was arrogant and mean and stupid for knowing how chemical bonds and pH work.

[Joules]

I'm sorry about that. My English can be quite misunderstood! What I meant to say is. When it comes to what science is and factual evidence that anyone would consider scientific. You can not simply make a statement and call it science. It involves studies, references, etc. I am all for scientific information but saying the ph level of all water is neutral and it can't be varied isn't science. Its a statement that needs to proven. It can't be proven behind experienve or a degree. Or else anyone in any professional position can simply take advantage of people simply because they take their word. There is no reference or study to back up what was said so it could be challenged to which I challenged it. I could say the same thing about a lot of statements and claims she made on ph level adjustments, what soapmakers do, does a base and a acid neutral the ph level, and if the mixture of apple cider vinegar and baking soda can be a good scalp cleanser for many people. I have no issue at all with being wrong but I feel there is a distorted view on what scientific facts are. Using your backround and/or experience as a way of saying everything you say is correct and can't be questioned is very unscientific. This of course will upset people. No one can ever master a field. We constantly learn and readjust. Those who feel they have finished learning. Are at a point of arrogance. Learning is a constant lifetime commitment. So yes there are always people who may understand parts of what you might not understand or who could possibly be right regardless of your background. If you didnt understand anything. Just point it out so I can rephrase.

There's a huuuuuge difference between not knowing advanced stuff (I agree, no one can ever master a field) and being 100% sure that basic elementary things work as they do. Mixing baking soda with vinegar is basic chemistry. If scientists were doubting every single elementary school fact we wouldn't be senting probes to Space right now. You don't doubt the fact that 2+2=4, do you?

[Joules]

Cymiri, your posts made me regret ignoring chemistry in school and not becoming a scientist :) it's extremely interesting!

[MusicalSpoons]

Thanks for taking the time to write that explanation of pH buffers, Cymiri! :D

[lapushka]

Cymiri, thank you for responding so gracefully to the questions asked. I feel so grateful that I know that much more about this now. Not that I could ever explain it to someone else, but at least I have some understanding.

Thank you! :flower:

[Sarahlabyrinth]

I couldn't explain it to anyone else either, Cymiri, but it was most interesting to read your explanation of it all - thank you! Science was never my forte.

[Ylva]

Thank you for all that information, Cymiri!

[LittleOgre]

I never attacked... You guys disagreed with me did you not? In not going to say ur attacking me because your just expressing your opinion. I dont care about being right. But I never made a particular statement. That is going against any links and evidence that were sent. You said you didnt understand me or maybe you were trying to make me feel bad. Who knows.

What evidence is going against what I am saying. What is the science.

[lapushka]

What evidence is going against what I am saying. What is the science.

Scroll back a number of posts to find the links that were added, and the science is there, for sure. If you can't trust someone who specifically went to university for this, then who can you trust, right? :) A scientist or science, it's the same thing. :)

[LittleOgre]

Hello Cynthia I'm sorry if I sound rude to you. You may call me sweets. You may be whatever you would like to me because it seems you are taking what i am saying wrong. Everything you have said did not go against any thing I said so you did waste your time. I'm sorry about that. You said citric acid is used to change the ph level which is what I said. You did not need to explain about the soap process because i already understood that. Distilled water is the oh level of 7 yes. But spring water is water. Purified water is water. I wouldnt have disagreed with you if you said specifically distilled water the ph level is 7 but you simply said water making anyone who reads this assume that the water they drink shwoer with and use all of it has the same ph level. Of course water only in itself can be contaminated with minerals etc that will change the ph level but at the end of the day it is still water. And apple cider vinegar with baking soda. I dont disagree. Misunderstanding possibly? I already explained how I felt about the two reacting and that it again one is alkaline the other is acidic so it neutralizes each other or is there something i am missing. Baking soda. You may feel for yourself in ur hands is grainy. You dont think it cleans? Its a very commonly known exfoliater. I'm not rude youre taking what i am saying wrong. I never saie anything rude. If I have I apologize. Or you may show me what i said that was rude. And maybe we can make comparisons? You didn't exactly read my whole post. The whole thing was about mixing the whole two. Not using baking soda alone.

Of course. :) I never disagreed with science. If I have anyone in the post is free to show me where I said I disagreed with facts. I feel no one has bothered reading anything I say properly so I have to repeat myself.

Hello Lapshuka. Evidneve is very good when it is meant to help with a disagreement. I saw the science. I understood it. But it did not help with what I was speaking on and the whole point of the post I made. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. I am upsetting people without trying. I try to be nice and I seem like I'm being rude. If im rude. Its even worse. Although it should be merited as it seems as some people have no problem throwing it at me. I love evidence but what am I supposed to do with evidence I dont dissgree with but it is also not going against what I am saying?

When it comes to a position someone is in. I can not trust there sole word :) I always look for references and others who are in the same position to give there thoughts. Even in one field you will have many perspectives and views. But seemingly it seems I cynthia and I do agree. But she wasn't specific enough about what type of water. And she thinks its impossinle for the form of apple cider vinegar and baking soda to cleanse. And we agree on the fact that soap makers do use bases and acid to adjust the ph level but she simply worded it differently and added info that I agree with seemingly from personal experience. I am not exactly sure the point anymore. To much misunderstanding. And I seem rude for having an opinion that isn't going against science. Neither anything she has said. Simply vagueness on her part since i repeated myself to multiple people and from the start explained my thoughts.

Cymiri. Sorry about that I'm typing on a phone. I never said any thing against you scientifically. I said arrogrant mainly due to you use your position as a form of facts. Youre probably well at your job. No hard feelings.

[Joules]

What evidence is going against what I am saying. What is the science.

this post made me want to scream and bang my head against my desk

[akurah]

Cymiri, I can't PM you, you're too new, but please don't take the bait.

[LittleOgre]

I asked what evidence I meant what evidenve is going against my disagreement. Not evidence that I agree with. I simply said apple cider vinegar and baking soda together neutralizes each other. It turns into a form of salt stated by many and I said yes of course. It cleans well. I said all water is not the ph of 7. And it was said that distilled water is 7 and other types of water is a different ph due to contamination seeing as we are in nature and distilled water isnt water we all use. It would be to general to simply say water is the oh of 7. I said ph level can be adjusted in soap hence citrus acid is used. She said yes but in small amounts and calls it a ph buffer. If you look at everything i say. It is not going against anything scientific. She just didnt read my original post properly on the fact that apple cider vinegar and baking soda together worked well for my mom and me but it was inconveniant to me. And went on with the fact that baking soda is to Alkaline. Well of course it is. I stated that already in my original post. She doesnt agree that it cleans well and says its not scientifically considered a surfactant. Well oil isnt considered a surfactant but many use it to clean there faces. Is flour considered a surfactant. Oil isnt the only thing many people want to get rid of from there scalps. It isnt even dirt. Its oil. Hence why people try to use the most gentlest things to keep it whilst cleaning the dirt and dead skin cells that shed from our scalps.

[LittleOgre]

Hello Akurah. I'm new as well. Look at the origin my post and cymiris original post. I never baited anyone. It just turned into a disagreemtent and now in a troll I'm looking for an arguement I'm bait because I won't agree. What happened to different opinions and thoughts. Oh well.

[lapushka]

Here's a dermatologist against BS (as it is very alkaline):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxIcYOhdY1U

[The-Young-Maid]

Wow. What am I doing with my life?:popcorn:

[Doreen]

Wow. What am I doing with my life?:popcorn:

Same here...:beerchug:

[LittleOgre]

I saw the video and it didnt address what I was wondering. It address baking soda and apple cider vinegar seperatley but not together. Baking soda and apple cider vinegar forms a salt. But it doesn't address that.

[LittleOgre]

As I said I feel I have been misinterpreted and misunderstood. I never suported the notion of pure baking soda alone with some water.

[MusicalSpoons]

this post made me want to scream and bang my head against my desk

Funny, I was just thinking this emoji was made for exactly this type of thing :brickwall There are a couple of others pertinent to this thread but I won't go there ;)


Cymiri, I can't PM you, you're too new, but please don't take the bait.

YES THIS! This thread has certainly run its course a couple of times over now :horse:

Cymiri just know that most of us appreciate your patient responses; thank you for educating those of us that want to learn and, um, appreciate scientific fact :flower:

With that, I'm out *unsubscribes*

[LittleOgre]

Welp. I feel like everyone is ignoring completley what i am saying ���� oh well. Never disagreed with any of the scientific evidence brought upon me because my arguement did not pertain it. I never said baking soda ALONE is good. I am speaking solely on mixing baking soda with an acid to neutralize the ph level. Many have said it turns into a salt. Which i never disagreed with. I feel as if most of you guys simply are just siding with someone necause you agree with them but not because youre actually reading anything that was said from the very beginning. I simply said the mixture can be cleansing and a bit drying. But I dont think baking soda as long as it is neutralized is harmful because of the ph level. I repeated this multiple times. No one mainly DIRECTLY addresses it. Simply talks about both separately. Or says baking soda avc mixture is not considered a surfuctant. It may not necessarily break down oils but it definitely exfoliatess and clean out depris and dirt built up onto the skin. It was admitted that mixed togethor it is a salt. So technically it is no longer baking soda but the baking soda was used which is what I said in the verrry beginning but peoppe get lost into communication. Jump to conclusions without reading everything fully. Then get mad at the person who made the post and says they don't agree with science even though that person hasn't made a single post against the science of it all. In fact touches up on it. To correct a person on the ph level of water in a more specific notion. But I am not agreeing with science somehow. Or maybe there is just biasness in this thread. Who knows.

[LittleOgre]

I decided to start reading the whole thread again and just by reading it. It feels like people were ready to attack rather than read my whole post and everything I had to say. I already said baking soda is to alkaline mixed with water and you see multiple peoppe repeat the same thing to correct something i already said... Like what? If you continue on my post i continue on with what if you mixed it with an acid instead. Many people said it forms into a salt. I never disagreed with that. And they said it can be damaging and it doesnt clean but the thing is salt or not. It definitely cleaned my scalp and my mothers and I explained how it felt. It was like a scrub. But it was Inconveniant for me but my mom loved it. I just simply was worried it might be to abrasive that is it. Say in ignorant whatever youd like but its clear that there is already and immediate defensiveness here.

[nycelle]

If you like it because it worked like a scrub, then just make (or buy) an exfoliating scalp scrub that won't be damaging to the hair?

I've used scrubs on my scalp, love them.

[LittleOgre]

If you look back I said i personally dont enjoy it because its inconveniant and there was no evidenve given to me that the result of baking soda mixed with apple cider vinegar is damaging.

[Ylva]

Well oil isnt considered a surfactant but many use it to clean there faces.

The method is called oil cleansing, yes, but that doesn't mean that the oil actually cleanses the face. The oil is used to loosen everything on your face, then it is washed off with a foam cleanser afterwards.

[Ylva]

If you like it because it worked like a scrub, then just make (or buy) an exfoliating scalp scrub that won't be damaging to the hair?

I've used scrubs on my scalp, love them.

Precisely. No need to go through such a process to make the salt, when you can just grab some salt from your kitchen cabinet and make a scrub out of it. Or, like you said, even better, buy a ready-made scalp scrub with other good stuff in it.

[lapushka]

The method is called oil cleansing, yes, but that doesn't mean that the oil actually cleanses the face. The oil is used to loosen everything on your face, then it is washed off with a foam cleanser afterwards.

I never used a foam cleanser afterwards. These days I use plain water, and only when I get up (no cleansing at night). My skin is too dry.

The thing is it is no *longer* BS when you add the ACV and it isn't "neutralizing" the pH (if I understood correctly), so you aren't cleansing with BS at all but with the salt - if you *can* cleanse with a salt, but isn't that more the topic at hand then?

[Ylva]

I never used a foam cleanser afterwards. These days I use plain water, and only when I get up (no cleansing at night). My skin is too dry.

Yeah, foam cleansers can be too drying for skin that's already dry. Good if that works for you. :)

[LittleOgre]

Although it is said to be salt it does not act in the same way salt does at all oddly enough. It is consider ed a salt but it is nothing like table salt from my personal experience. It is similar to a scrub just more effective and finer yet still does the job. And as I said there's no evidenve that it is damaging.

Technically it is neutralized. https://www.reference.com/science/happens-mix-acid-alkali-246dc31c70fbb026
And it isnt that was my bad in my part. But the baking soda texture crystals are still there. And it just isnt the same aa table salt at all

If you have mixed it yourself you would understand it just isnt the same at all as table salt and the reaction would be fairly different. Salt vs baking soda and apple cider vinegar. Although both salt. It isnt the same. At all.

If you look into it. Its fairly common to mix apple cider vinegar with baking soda to gain the benefits of both without damaging the body due to ph levels. Since it balances it out. If it truly was harsh and damaging. It would be pretty odd that people say its even les damaging of. Mixture than pure apple cider vinegar.

[lapushka]

If you look into it. Its fairly common to mix apple cider vinegar with baking soda to gain the benefits of both without damaging the body due to ph levels. Since it balances it out. If it truly was harsh and damaging. It would be pretty odd that people say its even les damaging of. Mixture than pure apple cider vinegar.

You are still trying to say that it's not a salt? And that BS + ACV = neutral? <scratches head> After all the people who have given their input that this is not the case in true fact? It is your issue if that's what you choose to believe, but that's not at all factual.

I'm done with this thread. Sorry.

[LittleOgre]

Lapshuka. I apologize I was 100% wrong on baking soda and apple coder vinegar. Baking soda alone is already considered a type of salt. https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/differences-between-sodium-bicarbonate-table-salt-9866.html

Baking soda is commonly used when mixed with an acid to neutralize the substance. Baking soda alone is a salt anyways but it is commonly used to neutralize an acid. In this case I wanted to use an acid to neutralize baking soda.

Based on the evidence I shown.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_bicarbonate
Mixing vinegar doesnt make it a salt since it is already a salt to begin with. When you mix an acid. Its neutralized. Its all over the internet

Mixing baking soda with an acid such as citric acid is a quick way to make baking powder. To help cakes rise. Its not as harmful as people think it is. Besides that from what I looked into when it comes to volcamies they do not just use baking soda and vinegar to make a volcano a lot of the tomes. To increase the effect other things are added

Well of course I wasn't disagreeing with that. Just disagreeing with the harm aspect. The fact that it is bad all together. Based on the evidence. But I lost people on here.

Besides that many people have reported it to be very effective in scalp cleaning. I just find it inconveniant personally

[Ylva]

The point was that you don't get any better of a cleanser, it's just going to be a scrub either way.

[*Wednesday*]

Hello Cynthia.....

Who is Cynthia?

[LittleOgre]

I meant Cymiri. I couldn't see her name on my tiny screen

I'm saving up to buy a microscope so maybe then thats when it can be compared and seen if it truly does damage XD I'm not a scientist or 100% known of chemistry but I do love learning about it

[Sarahlabyrinth]

I'm saving up to buy a microscope so maybe then thats when it can be compared and seen if it truly does damage XD I'm not a scientist or 100% known of chemistry but I do love learning about it

But it doesn't sound like you are willing to learn from what folks here have told you about it....you say you love learning about it but....

[lapushka]

I'm saving up to buy a microscope so maybe then thats when it can be compared and seen if it truly does damage XD I'm not a scientist or 100% known of chemistry but I do love learning about it

It seems though that the scientific explanations that were offered went on deaf ears.


But it doesn't sound like you are willing to learn from what folks here have told you about it....you say you love learning about it but....

That was my impression too.

This is an odd thread to me, and I don't quite know what to think anymore. :hmm:

[akurah]

Microscopes, if I’m recalling high school right, are for biology. I don’t remember ever seeing one in chemistry class.

[Doreen]

Microscopes, if I’m recalling high school right, are for biology. I don’t remember ever seeing one in chemistry class.

I think LittleOgre is planning to look at hair samples to see if the baking soda hair strand is more damaged.

[lakhesis]

How this has 162 replies going all over the same thing is beyond me, but I really liked Cymiri's responses, is there any way we can save them somewhere? Articles or blogs, or maybe a thread with links to all of the nice nerdy hair explanations? :)

[lapushka]

How this has 162 replies going all over the same thing is beyond me, but I really liked Cymiri's responses, is there any way we can save them somewhere? Articles or blogs, or maybe a thread with links to all of the nice nerdy hair explanations? :)

Maybe Cymiri can chime in on various topics when we need it? Just a thought. I wouldn't push the "blog this post" button on the posts though, Cymiri might not want them archived. I *loved* her responses, though! Really useful.

[MusicalSpoons]

How this has 162 replies going all over the same thing is beyond me, but I really liked Cymiri's responses, is there any way we can save them somewhere? Articles or blogs, or maybe a thread with links to all of the nice nerdy hair explanations? :)

lapushka makes a good point re: consent, but you may find this thread sufficiently nerdy and equally fascinating https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=136845 (nerdy = awesome)

*still unsubscribed*

[LittleOgre]

It seems like no one has bothered to read any of my replies properly. You choose what you read. I'm not even going to bother to repeat myself because to you in deaf because you don't bother reading anything I say. Just tid bits

*sigh* Should I even bother repeating myself... I'm not willing to learn to you guys because youre the ones being deaf. You dont read anything i say. You skim. Choose the reply that suits you best and say that I went against what she said when it came to scientific facts. She took an article copied and paste it into the replies and sent it. Its already in a fornatted article. Just search it up.

Because no one bothers reading thoroughly. So you have people asking the same thing saying the same things repeating the same things because they never bothered to actually read the original post and read everything i actually say. So I have to repeat myself. Hence why they say I love science and learning but I'm not willing to take what Cymiri said. You can tell by what was said no one bothered reading properly anything I said. I never went against the facts of what Cymiri said. Cymiri is another one who never bothered reading my post properly so again I had to repeat myself. I never went against the notion of baking soda being harmless alone. I never went against the conotiion of a lot of things if people actually read lol. But what do I know?

To see how different chemicals reaction to the hair. Science is connected all together.

Just... I have no clue. I'm not willing to learn to many of you guys because you're the ones who are not willing to learn. You skipped through everything picked a side and sticked with it. I have admitted my mistakes throughout my threads but I also sticked to arguements that were never refuted by anyone. Including Cymiri. She gave me information I already knew and I agreed with but it had nothing to do with my original post. When she first replied.

[LittleOgre]

If I disagree I'm ignorant and I am not willing to learn because you guys are not willing to be open or read anything i say properly. If I agree regardless of the logic and facts. Then I am willing to learn. Sounds very logical.

I even sent information myself to correct people and correct Cymiri. But I guess sinve I didnt claim to work for some science lab. Any links or info I say are not science

Yes baking soda neutralized with an acid. If you read thoroughly

[nycelle]

LittleOgre- you can hit edit and add to your posts, instead of just doing one or two lines of new ones.

[LittleOgre]

But maybe I should repeat myself just in case. Just to be clear if you read from my original post and every one last of my comments. I believed baking soda was damaging alone. I said that if you mix baking soda with an acid it will neutralize the substance thereofore the ph level becomes less harmful. In baking it is a very common thing to use baking soda and acid to raise cakes. It is very common to use it in bath bombs. Its common to use it to neutralize apple cider vinegar when one wants to consume it in its acidic form. I never ever once said baking soda itself mixed with water was NOT damaging. I said the ph of water is not acidic enough to balance out the ph level of baking soda since its pretty close to the ph of baking soda. On the other hand. Acidic bases are usually in the 2-4 range. Which balances out with an alkaline substance such as baking soda. Hopefully you guys read this and understand. Because it seems like it is going from one ear to another and I'm the one who is deaf. I read every last thing on here and just by reading I noticed that it is obvious that not everyone has the time to do that. Cymiri never once sent me facts evidence and never even argued properly against the idea of balancing out the ph level. She just became arguementive and told me 'its not gonna clean your hair so I dont know what your doing'. When in a lot if cases it has cleaned peoples hair and through experiemce it has for me. Based on what she said cleanliness means dryness. Meaning the substance has to break down oil properly but you have to remmeber I dont produce the level of oils that many do and the rest of my family as well. Even though scientifically it is said by her it is not comsidered a surfactant. The definition of surfuctant isn't removing dead skin cells dirt etc. Its just the break down of oils. That is it. But I'm deaf. I dont like science. I dont enjoy learning somehow. Just in case no one got it. I do think baking soda is damaging when not neutralized. This is a great example of people coming together to put someone down and say they dont make sense just because they disagree with them. Many argued that baking soda mixed with an acid produces A salt but you have to remember bakinh soda is ALREADY considered a type of salt. But it is defintiley not the same as table salt. Honestly I'm done with this thread. The replies will be of those who didnt read every word that was said. Came to random conclusions. And call me names and try to lower me because you disagree but then you will get upset when i do the same thing. Any thing that will be said will be said out of ignorance because no one bothered reading my replies or even my ORIGINAL post properly. You think baking soda is damaging? Great I AGREE. I said that a billion times. But you guys are the ones who are acting deaf well accept a few people. Read my replies properly if you can't bother. Why say such things you dont understand of? Goodbye

[LittleOgre]

sorry about that I was replying to each person.

[Corvana]

sorry about that I was replying to each person.

It's hard for us to see that, as you don't reply with a quote, so it's sort of confusing. And with the quotes you can also multiquote (thread on how to do that here (https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=43281)) to have your replies all in one comment and then easier to read through. The reply button seems like a good idea, but honestly it's kind of terrible IMO :laugh:

ETA: You can also just use the person's username (copy and paste it, and make it bold to make it easier to see) when replying in a single post to separate your replies.

[lapushka]

LittleOgre, "neutralizing" Baking Soda is exactly what ISN'T possible because it doesn't stay Baking Soda, it becomes a salt, so it changes its form. So no neutralizing in itself, at all - it does not exist. That is exactly what is falling on deaf ears; you keep repeating it will neutralize, no it will NOT.

[LittleOgre]

Neutralization - n. Chemistry A reaction between an acid and a base that yields a salt and water.

Sodium acetate is a chemical salt – an ionic compound formed by the neutralization reaction of an acid (acetic acid) and a base (baking soda, or sodium bicarbonate). Table salt is a different sodium salt, sodium chloride. Sodium acetate = CH3COONa, sodium chloride = NaCl.
It might be salt water in technicality but it is not the same as table salt (sodium chloride)


https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6788/is-vinegar-baking-soda-an-effective-agent-for-disinfecting-bacteria-and-mold

This website does show studies that show it to still be an effective cleaner although not as effective as your average gallon of bleach. It still does what many people use it for. :)

[lapushka]

Then the effect you are using Baking Soda *for* (ie clarifying) will be largely gone, no?

Anyway, I feel that we're talking in circles, maybe best to quit this thread.

[LittleOgre]

Not necessarily. Its still an effective cleaning agent. But its not as harsh as the two seperatley from each other. It most likely isn't only the salt and water in action but the other chemicals that reside in vinegar as well. There was a video done on YouTube using these two componants and its OBVIOUS it works to clean. Otherwise you wouldn't see people with such thick dreads have water so dirty they can't even see through it anymore. And alright

Not necessarily. Its still an effective cleaning agent. But its not as harsh as the two seperatley from each other. It most likely isn't only the salt and water in action but the other chemicals that reside in vinegar as well. There was a video done on YouTube using these two componants and its OBVIOUS it works to clean. Otherwise you wouldn't see people with such thick dreads have water so dirty they can't even see through it anymore. And alright

I never said it would produce that. My replies seem rude but no one will look at other replies. Maybe its because I haven't been here long enough so its okay for others to trample on someone else but when that person seems a bit steady. Its rude. If you look at my original post once again. I never said any of this. If you look at the replies it had nothing to do with my point. People are repeating themselves because people arent reading anything. Youre explaining things i never disagreed with and wasnt arguing for to begin with. People were replying based off nothing because they didnt read anything. I was speaking on the mixture of baking soda and vinegar. Not baking soda in itself. Why cant people read?

People were automatically defensive. From the very beginning hence why it was not read properly. And its very clear you don't agree with me as well with whatever I said. All I said was what if you neutralized baking soda with apple cider vinegar as a cleaning agent. All i said was it produces a really good scrub and cleans well for hair and to top it all of. Its stated through this whole thread that it is gentle! The mixture in technicaity isn't the chemistry composition of baking soda. It is technically baking powder or sodium acetate and water. but the ingrediants used is baking soda which people seem to be against. Which is why I was wondering if you neutraoize it and it produces the same effect or similar. Would you try it? But from the reaction. Well or not. Mentioning baking soda and being for it in a way has left people on the defense. Which is why instead of reading assumptions are autonatically made and they try to correct me. Besides that if you were to let the mixture mix on whatever you're trying to clean and instead of waiting for the bubbles to subside you to get a stronger clesning agent. Hence why it is used in drain cleaners. But again... Also used in cakes and things we consume. So not dangerous. Just unncesscary fear which I said from the very very beginning

You suspect because youost likely haven't read the whole thread to be fair I wouldnt too. But trust me. It all started of nice but then peoppe became rude mean trying to belittle me then said I was rude when I replied back in the same tone.

I already explained why people are repeating themselves but its being ignored while people do the same thing over. Lol

I did not igmore Cymiri. Reread the replies. I answered it and did not ignore it at all. In fact someone else in the replies typed in the same thing as her and I answered that as well. I repeated myself several times on this reaction but it got flooded by replies and people read a few comments and went based on that.

Quite honestly I think peoppe are just upset with me because I created a fairly strong arguement so now people are changing the subject or teying to say things off topic I never even disagreeed with. Lets let this go.

[illicitlizard]

Thanks Cymiri for your explanations of basic chemistry, they were very well articulated. :flower:


...I said that if you mix baking soda with an acid it will neutralize the substance thereofore the ph level becomes less harmful. ... I never ever once said baking soda itself mixed with water was NOT damaging. I said the ph of water is not acidic enough to balance out the ph level of baking soda since its pretty close to the ph of baking soda. On the other hand. Acidic bases are usually in the 2-4 range. Which balances out with an alkaline substance such as baking soda. ... I do think baking soda is damaging when not neutralized. This is a great example of people coming together to put someone down and say they dont make sense just because they disagree with them. Many argued that baking soda mixed with an acid produces A salt but you have to remember bakinh soda is ALREADY considered a type of salt. ...You think baking soda is damaging? Great I AGREE. I said that a billion times. But you guys are the ones who are acting deaf well accept a few people. Read my replies properly if you can't bother. Why say such things you dont understand of? Goodbye

I have to wonder though why everyone's running round in circles repeating the same points at this stage? If you want to use baking soda on your hair go for it. As seen in this thread it's deffo not recommended but like autonomy/it's your body etc. so whatever. As we all agree, baking soda is damaging on its own. Neutralising it (with lemon juice or acv) will not, however, create an acidic sodium bicarbonate with an optimum pH for cleansing without damage. That's the point. The reaction will leave you with a completely different substance that won't do the same thing as bicarb. Cymiri gave a solid chemistry explanation of this reaction which was ignored, I don't know what else you'd want addressed?

Also LittleOgre I suspect people aren't meticulously scouring your replies at this stage due to your responses to other's comments being quite rude and unreceptive to the facts of basic chemistry. Neither side is getting through to the other and everyone's just repeating themselves at this point, and it's devolved a little to pedantry over definitions of terms, so I'll say no more and peace off.

Please let this thread die holy heck.

[Sarahlabyrinth]

Frankly, I am amazed that this thread has continued for as long as it has.

[Cymiri]

Maybe Cymiri can chime in on various topics when we need it? Just a thought. I wouldn't push the "blog this post" button on the posts though, Cymiri might not want them archived. I *loved* her responses, though! Really useful.

Haha... mostly I strung together lots of reliable outside sources I love and pertinent bits from here and there with a heep 'o my 'splaining to link it. Peeps are free to do with them as they will, hopefully, they help lots of others out in the world as OP clearly is resistant to understanding :)

I am not well versed in the intracicies of what the forum posts can do so knock your socks off. I do tend to chip in on threads as I see them, but am not always around.

Have a fab one lovely ladies.

[Cymiri]

Cymiri, I can't PM you, you're too new, but please don't take the bait.

;) Thanks for having my back lovely lady. I indeed stem saam met jou on this topic. Glad others found it of use [and entertainment] though!

[lapushka]

Haha... mostly I strung together lots of reliable outside sources I love and pertinent bits from here and there with a heep 'o my 'splaining to link it. Peeps are free to do with them as they will, hopefully, they help lots of others out in the world as OP clearly is resistant to understanding :)

I am not well versed in the intracicies of what the forum posts can do so knock your socks off. I do tend to chip in on threads as I see them, but am not always around.

Have a fab one lovely ladies.

Have a lovely day yourself. I hope you stick around for a long while yet (on this forum in general)! :flower:

[LittleOgre]

Fabulous. Ignore everything I say, act deaf, then say the op is resistant to understanding. Is this how people do it? If you find the person to challenging and you're not sure what to say next because what they say is correct you simply go back to trying to belittle them. I guess it is a natural instinct for many when they have nothing else informative to say but repetitive language that was already talked on. Hopefully this isn't how the rest of this forum is. Being to challenging is a troll...

[akurah]

Fabulous. Ignore everything I say, act deaf, then say the op is resistant to understanding. Is this how people do it? If you find the person to challenging and you're not sure what to say next because what they say is correct you simply go back to trying to belittle them. I guess it is a natural instinct for many when they have nothing else informative to say but repetitive language that was already talked on. Hopefully this isn't how the rest of this forum is. Being to challenging is a troll...

People are ignoring you because you rather viciously attack anyone who dares disagree with you, and you dismiss out of hand any science we provide because it disagrees (arguably, disproves outright) with your theories, and blame it all on "You guys misunderstand me" when, if that IS true, then you haven't clearly stated your case, and... frankly, I don't think that is true. We have addressed with great care all of the points you have raised after you started yelling at us for misunderstanding.

People do not enjoy being attacked and generally do not engage with people who attack them.

[GrowlingCupcake]

Fabulous. Ignore everything I say, act deaf, then say the op is resistant to understanding. Is this how people do it? If you find the person to challenging and you're not sure what to say next because what they say is correct you simply go back to trying to belittle them. I guess it is a natural instinct for many when they have nothing else informative to say but repetitive language that was already talked on. Hopefully this isn't how the rest of this forum is. Being to challenging is a troll...

I have yet to see a frequent/regular LHC poster who is unwilling to admit someone else is right when proof is provided, much less all the posters in a thread minus one. People are not unsure what to say because you're right or challenging; people are just done trying to explain the proof that you are unwilling to accept. Personally, I think they gave it a hell of a shot, and tried for much longer than I would have.

If you want to deal in facts, evidence, proof, etc. the rest of the forums is pretty much the same: science, evidence, proof, facts, etc. prevail. If you want to go by opinion, no one is going to stop you even if they have a different opinion, because it's your opinion. And if you want to try something out even though there is no proof to support it or there is proof that explicitly does not support it, people aren't going to stop you either.

[spidermom]

Fabulous. Ignore everything I say, act deaf, then say the op is resistant to understanding. Is this how people do it? If you find the person to challenging and you're not sure what to say next because what they say is correct you simply go back to trying to belittle them. I guess it is a natural instinct for many when they have nothing else informative to say but repetitive language that was already talked on. Hopefully this isn't how the rest of this forum is. Being to challenging is a troll...

Use baking soda and vinegar on your hair as much as you want; more power to ya! No, I am not interested in trying this because I am happy with my diluted shampoo and conditioner routine.

[LittleOgre]

I invited anyone to show me where I dismissed science but no one chose to come forth. I had people start out with attackibg me first and belittling me and trying to make me feel bad FIRST. All I can say is if you feel I ignored science and dismiss it. Show me where I said. Quote my exact words where I disagreed. I agreed with it only. I am a human being. I do not like being belittled and attacked therefore I protected myself because if I comtinue to let those people attack me what do i look like? I stated my case from the beginning. No one chose to read it. You dont have to think on anything. The evidence is all in this thread. People are ignoring me because they do not want to hear it. That is truly it. They can stomp on someone but there actions dont matter just how the person react and I'm sorry. I'm not the type to allow people to try to bully me because they realized what they said did not make sense.

Of course. I personally find it inconveniant lol. I tried to dilute my shampoo but I get lazy and it just doesn't sud as much as i like

If you read throughout ALL of my replies I ALREADY AGREED with the science. From the beginning of my post I already had the mindset they were arguing passionately about. That is why i felt people were unsure of what to say. They didn't read everything properly. I had to correct them. Then they chose to belittle me and try to make feel stupid after realizing they did not read anything properly and chose to attack someone because they came from assumptions and not openness. This all seems more like an ego thing.

Just options. Curiousity. I like experimenting sometimes.

Honestly. What is more clear than me saying baking soda is damaging on its own. So what if you mix it with an acid to neutralize it. How is that not clear.

[Ylva]

But your point was... that baking soda mixed with ACV is a good scalp cleanser? Surely everything you scrub your scalp with is a good scalp cleanser. What is the actual point?

[lapushka]

Honestly. What is more clear than me saying baking soda is damaging on its own. So what if you mix it with an acid to neutralize it. How is that not clear.

The fact that for the upteenth time we say you can't neutralize it as it is no longer Baking Soda (so hence you can't neutralize it) - it becomes a different thing than Baking Soda. That is what you just don't seem to want to grasp.

Hey, if you want to clean your hair with a salt, fine, but don't say you *can* neutralize it when in fact you can't.

[LittleOgre]

The results are no longer baking soda I never disagreed with that but baking soda is used for the process. But I always from the very beginning was speaking on a mixture of baking soda and acid. Although it created salt water in technicality it is not table salt the salt water you see in the sea. Its sodium acetate. It is not necessarily purely salt water. It mixed wuth a whole bunch of minerals and chemicals that arent bad. But help with a cleaning process. Also the texture of baking soda itself is abrasive enough to be a scrub. If you look all over YouTube. Baking soda and apple cider vinegar DEFINITLEY works. The reason I say baking soda and apple cider vinegar is because it isnt the same as simple dissolving table salt in distilled water

Btw the definition of neutralization is mixing a base with an acid which produces a type of salt water. Which i already stated the definition a while back.

[GrowlingCupcake]

Of course. I personally find it inconveniant lol. I tried to dilute my shampoo but I get lazy and it just doesn't sud as much as i like

I dilute my shampoo in a spare shampoo bottle. Have you tried working out the ratio? Mine suds, and applies beautifully, far better than regular shampoo. I usually do 1:3 shampoo:water, and then just keep adding water to it if I don't finish what's in there.

[LittleOgre]

Yesh when I did dilute it did like 1:10 ratio. So possibly it might be to diluted. I might try that instead then.

[GrowlingCupcake]

Yesh when I did dilute it did like 1:10 ratio. So possibly it might be to diluted. I might try that instead then.

Definitely play around with the ratio. I'd start with more shampoo since you can easily add more water. It takes time to find what works well for your hair; I've been trying for a year, and I'm still not going great!

[Lady Stardust]

Yes I can tell for sure lol. I dont think its the ph level of baking soda that is whats damaging. I think its how powerful and precise it is as an exfoliator to a very micro.... Specific target that possibly damages hair cuticles. The texture of baking soda is very different from anything really. And I saw am article where it says baking soda can permanently damage your skin. Not because of the ph level itself. I offered my mom to use a clarifying shampoo onstead after that because although I do believe my theory was correct. I do think baking soda is damaging but not because of the ph level itself. I think it helped her a lot because the crystals did most of the scrubbing power for her. A clarifying shampoo could help in that arena. That is another theory at least on baking soda. I could be incorrect. Wish I could take a hair strand and use a microscope to analyze the effects lol. The clarifying shampoo gets my hair very clean. I wanted thick dreadlocks originally but I dont think you could ever clean it probably without doing some kind of soak. So I got fairly thin ones where I see through each loc if I wanted to. Nothing can hide. I tried the soak as well and it didn't do much of anything. I didnt sre any dirt. Which i was glad of. But I think its the act of scrubbing baking soda against ur hair. Not the ph level.


Welp. I feel like everyone is ignoring completley what i am saying ���� oh well. Never disagreed with any of the scientific evidence brought upon me because my arguement did not pertain it. I never said baking soda ALONE is good. I am speaking solely on mixing baking soda with an acid to neutralize the ph level. Many have said it turns into a salt. Which i never disagreed with. I feel as if most of you guys simply are just siding with someone necause you agree with them but not because youre actually reading anything that was said from the very beginning. I simply said the mixture can be cleansing and a bit drying. But I dont think baking soda as long as it is neutralized is harmful because of the ph level. I repeated this multiple times. No one mainly DIRECTLY addresses it. Simply talks about both separately. Or says baking soda avc mixture is not considered a surfuctant. It may not necessarily break down oils but it definitely exfoliatess and clean out depris and dirt built up onto the skin. It was admitted that mixed togethor it is a salt. So technically it is no longer baking soda but the baking soda was used which is what I said in the verrry beginning but peoppe get lost into communication. Jump to conclusions without reading everything fully. Then get mad at the person who made the post and says they don't agree with science even though that person hasn't made a single post against the science of it all. In fact touches up on it. To correct a person on the ph level of water in a more specific notion. But I am not agreeing with science somehow. Or maybe there is just biasness in this thread. Who knows.


The results are no longer baking soda I never disagreed with that but baking soda is used for the process. But I always from the very beginning was speaking on a mixture of baking soda and acid. Although it created salt water in technicality it is not table salt the salt water you see in the sea. Its sodium acetate. It is not necessarily purely salt water. It mixed wuth a whole bunch of minerals and chemicals that arent bad. But help with a cleaning process. Also the texture of baking soda itself is abrasive enough to be a scrub. If you look all over YouTube. Baking soda and apple cider vinegar DEFINITLEY works. The reason I say baking soda and apple cider vinegar is because it isnt the same as simple dissolving table salt in distilled water

LittleOgre I’ve just re-read this whole thread and I think I must be missing something?

Near the beginning of this thread you said that you believed it was abrasion that could be the cause of damage when using baking soda. However as far as I can understand you are now saying that baking soda mixed with apple cider vinegar could make a good cleanser because baking soda is so abrasive.

I remember you also said that it’s also inconvenient for you to use.

As far as I understand it, you have come to the conclusion that baking soda and apple cider vinegar could make a damaging cleanser/scrub and you don’t intend to use it again. Have I misunderstood that?

If that is your conclusion, I’m not sure what there is to add to this thread?

[LittleOgre]

There wasn't much to add. Just many people misunderstood didnt properly read and tried to make an arguement out of it. Besides that I dont think its damaging anymore. I oroginally thought that it could possibly still he damaging not because of the ph level but since I was forced to do further research now I dont think its damaging at all quite honestly. Its just a scrub I thought that maybe the scrub was to abrasive but that just doesn't make sense to me anymore. I didn't really have much to add anymore. But people seemingly chose not to read everything before commenting.

[Lady Stardust]

There wasn't much to add. Just many people misunderstood didnt properly read and tried to make an arguement out of it. Besides that I dont think its damaging anymore. I oroginally thought that it could possibly still he damaging not because of the ph level but since I was forced to do further research now I dont think its damaging at all quite honestly. Its just a scrub I thought that maybe the scrub was to abrasive but that just doesn't make sense to me anymore. I didn't really have much to add anymore. But people seemingly chose not to read everything before commenting.

There doesn’t really seem to be any point in going round in circles anymore? I think this thread has run its course.

[LittleOgre]

Several people have said that and I quite honestly agree but people continue to put there input and comments lol