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Joules
September 24th, 2018, 04:41 AM
So I washed my hair with a liquid sulfate shampoo for the first time in ages yesterday. Pantene Aqua Light for oily hair, if anyone's curious. After I was done washing I noticed a weird thing.

I used very little shampoo, compared to the amount of a sulfate-free shampoo I normally use to wash my hair.

I always do pre-poo oil treatments, and when I'm trying to wash the oil out with a sulfate-free shampoo, I need a ton of it. To wash the same olive oil our of my hair with a sulfate shampoo I used maybe a third of that amount, if not a quarter. My roots were squeaky clean, because well, I washed only the roots, and my lengths were clean, soft and tangle-free. And it got me thinking.

Doesn't the fact that I need a lot of sulfate-free shampoo makes it just as bad for my hair as a sulfate one? Maybe a little bit of sulfate shampoo is even better than a lot of sulfate-free.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

paulownia
September 24th, 2018, 04:58 AM
So I washed my hair with a liquid sulfate shampoo for the first time in ages yesterday. Pantene Aqua Light for oily hair, if anyone's curious. After I was done washing I noticed a weird thing.

I used very little shampoo, compared to the amount of a sulfate-free shampoo I normally use to wash my hair.

I always do pre-poo oil treatments, and when I'm trying to wash the oil out with a sulfate-free shampoo, I need a ton of it. To wash the same olive oil our of my hair with a sulfate shampoo I used maybe a third of that amount, if not a quarter. My roots were squeaky clean, because well, I washed only the roots, and my lengths were clean, soft and tangle-free. And it got me thinking.

Doesn't the fact that I need a lot of sulfate-free shampoo makes it just as bad for my hair as a sulfate one? Maybe a little bit of sulfate shampoo is even better than a lot of sulfate-free.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?
I don't think it's strange at all;) sulfates have good cleansing properties, they are strong surfactants. It's natural that you need to use more of a mild shampoo, they are not foaming that well, especially if you need to wash off oil from your hair.
Does it make it bad for your hair? I don't think so. I use only sulfate shampoos (anything else is just not making my hair clean) they are not doing any harm to my hair at all.

lapushka
September 24th, 2018, 05:34 AM
I think you have to make up your mind on that one and see which you prefer.
I can't say if a lot of sulfate-free vs a tiny amount of sulfates, which is better.

I do use massive amounts of sulfate shampoo, though, a tiny bit is not gonna cut it with my iii hair. I need a glob on the back, on the top, and one split into 2 for the 2 sides. It is like 3 coinsizes (glob) per section. Like a small palm full. I haven't had issues with it so far. So even that is fine, IMMHO. I also used Pantene Aqua Light this Sunday.

It looks like the Pantene AL is discontinued in this country, too. I'm sad. I still have a box full of them, and then I'm out. I'm really sad, because that was my favorite go-to. I am using stuff up this year, so I am using whatever I can find. Next week I will be using a bottle of Nivea for oily hair that's been sitting around. Whatever works.

I'd continue using sulfate-free, and using a sulfate in between once in a while; it seems to be working for you, and I wouldn't mess with a good thing!

Natashap
September 24th, 2018, 05:37 AM
I have noticed same things when washing hair if extremely oily or applied oil to scalp plus hair.

But tangles is another issue for me.

Sulfates are a necessary evil for lots of conditions of skin /scalp as eczema and SD.

As quantity of shampoo is concerned ,I do not think it affects hair /scalp but just the wallet.

Joules
September 24th, 2018, 05:59 AM
I don't think it's strange at all;) sulfates have good cleansing properties, they are strong surfactants. It's natural that you need to use more of a mild sulfate shampoo, they are not foaming that well, especially if you need to wash off oil from your hair.
Does it make it bad for your hair? I don't think so. I use only sulfate shampoos (anything else is just not making my hair clean) they are not doing any harm to my hair at all.

That's what I'm thinking, too. I used to be the biggest sulfate hater for the longest time, now that I'm learning more about hair care and re-evaluating my views I'm realising that my hair was ruined not because I was using sulfates and silicones, but because of how I used them and how I treated my hair in general.


I think you have to make up your mind on that one and see which you prefer.
I can't say if a lot of sulfate-free vs a tiny amount of sulfates, which is better.

I do use massive amounts of sulfate shampoo, though, a tiny bit is not gonna cut it with my iii hair. I need a glob on the back, on the top, and one split into 2 for the 2 sides. It is like 3 coinsizes (glob) per section. Like a small palm full. I haven't had issues with it so far. So even that is fine, IMMHO. I also used Pantene Aqua Light this Sunday.

It looks like the Pantene AL is discontinued in this country, too. I'm sad. I still have a box full of them, and then I'm out. I'm really sad, because that was my favorite go-to. I am using stuff up this year, so I am using whatever I can find. Next week I will be using a bottle of Nivea for oily hair that's been sitting around. Whatever works.

I'd continue using sulfate-free, and using a sulfate in between once in a while; it seems to be working for you, and I wouldn't mess with a good thing!

When I said that I used a tiny amount, I was talking four coin-sizes for my entire head for each round of washing (I always shampoo twice), so it's technically not a small amount :bluebiggr I need thee times as much of a sulfate-free shampoo to do the same job, so for me it's a noticeable thing!

I'll continue using sulfate-free, of course, it's just that I want to ditch the co-washing altogether and just alternate between sulfate and sulfate-free from now on. I've learned quite a lot over the past few weeks about the importance of properly cleansing the scalp, so I'm willing to take a risk and experiment in this department. Having split ends is far better than developing scalp conditions.

I don't think Pantene AL is discontinued here where I live, but a lot of other Pantene shampoos are silicone-free and seem to have overall nice ingredient lists, so I'll try out others if this one disappeares from stores :roll: I'd love to try Head&Shoulders because of their anti-dandruff ingredients, but alas, all of them contain dimethicone, and I haven't seen similar cone-free anti-dandruff products in drugstores (I don't need expensive medicated shampoos).

paulownia
September 24th, 2018, 06:48 AM
That's what I'm thinking, too. I used to be the biggest sulfate hater for the longest time, now that I'm learning more about hair care and re-evaluating my views I'm realising that my hair was ruined not because I was using sulfates and silicones, but because of how I used them and how I treated my hair in general.
I went through *sulfates are evil* phase as well;)
I started to treat my hair as wavy in 2009, went from ''shampoo and brush only'' to using oils, conditionner, deep treatments and of course suldfate-free shampoos ( Co washing never really worked for me) Over 5 years I-ve been happy with my routines but then my hair just changed. It stopped frizzing, became shiny, too much product would weigh it down... and of course the genlte shampoos stopped doing their job. I switched to sulfate shampoos around autumn 2015 and I continue my hair journey;) My waves are pretty happy, healthy and growing.
I was never anti-silicone either.
Products with alcohol, heat, bleach- that is worse.

Alissalocks
September 24th, 2018, 07:22 AM
I personally don't understand why people make such a a big deal of the sulfate/silicone issue but that's bc my hair doesn't mind either. I've never had trouble with it, so I just don't get it. ;)

I also use a coin size shampoo glob for my whole head (scalp wash and squish suds through the lengths). Just one!

MusicalSpoons
September 24th, 2018, 07:22 AM
I have noticed same things when washing hair if extremely oily or applied oil to scalp plus hair.

But tangles is another issue for me.

Sulfates are a necessary evil for lots of conditions of skin /scalp as eczema and SD.

As quantity of shampoo is concerned ,I do not think it affects hair /scalp but just the wallet.

Just have to jump in here and say that for me, sulphates are the worst thing for eczema in my experience. I don't doubt some people need to use sulphates, and I don't doubt a lot of people get on with them just fine. Just ... probably not with eczema.

(Btw, there's an emollient cream prescribed and sold over here *specifically for the treatment of eczema* which contains SLS to preserve it :confused: ... it comes with a warning of the risk of irritation :doh: :rolleyes: )

lapushka
September 24th, 2018, 07:31 AM
When I said that I used a tiny amount, I was talking four coin-sizes for my entire head for each round of washing (I always shampoo twice), so it's technically not a small amount :bluebiggr I need thee times as much of a sulfate-free shampoo to do the same job, so for me it's a noticeable thing!

I'll continue using sulfate-free, of course, it's just that I want to ditch the co-washing altogether and just alternate between sulfate and sulfate-free from now on. I've learned quite a lot over the past few weeks about the importance of properly cleansing the scalp, so I'm willing to take a risk and experiment in this department. Having split ends is far better than developing scalp conditions.

I don't think Pantene AL is discontinued here where I live, but a lot of other Pantene shampoos are silicone-free and seem to have overall nice ingredient lists, so I'll try out others if this one disappeares from stores :roll: I'd love to try Head&Shoulders because of their anti-dandruff ingredients, but alas, all of them contain dimethicone, and I haven't seen similar cone-free anti-dandruff products in drugstores (I don't need expensive medicated shampoos).

It was first, I believe, discontinued in the US, and it went on being available here for months after that in Belgium. Now it looks like it's gone as well. Can't find it in any stores around here anymore. None. The volumizing Pantene one is about similar, if you're interested in a sulfate/silicone free alternative! I used to switch between the two, depending on what was available in store. Don't get the classic one (I believe that has silicones), the volumizing one is the one to go for next if it ever disappears. :) HTH! :flower:

nycelle
September 24th, 2018, 07:34 AM
So I washed my hair with a liquid sulfate shampoo for the first time in ages yesterday. Pantene Aqua Light for oily hair, if anyone's curious. After I was done washing I noticed a weird thing.

I used very little shampoo, compared to the amount of a sulfate-free shampoo I normally use to wash my hair.

I always do pre-poo oil treatments, and when I'm trying to wash the oil out with a sulfate-free shampoo, I need a ton of it. To wash the same olive oil our of my hair with a sulfate shampoo I used maybe a third of that amount, if not a quarter. My roots were squeaky clean, because well, I washed only the roots, and my lengths were clean, soft and tangle-free. And it got me thinking.

Doesn't the fact that I need a lot of sulfate-free shampoo makes it just as bad for my hair as a sulfate one? Maybe a little bit of sulfate shampoo is even better than a lot of sulfate-free.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

All I know is my scalp feels great - no more itchiness, and my hair less dry, even though I wash twice.

So for me, sulfate free was 100% the way to go.

eta: From what I understand, you're not supposed to use more of a low poo than a sulfate shampoo. It's not gonna foam but that's normal, it's still cleaning.
I do wash twice and use a massage brush because I like the feel of squeaky clean scalp. But it's not the norm to do this with sulfate free.

Alibran
September 24th, 2018, 07:51 AM
The difference between sulphates and sulphate-free (as I understand it) is that sulphate-free shampoos don't penetrate as deep as those with sulphates. Thus, both will be effective in removing the outer layer of oil from the hair, both added oil and natural oils that are sitting on the surface. Shampoos with sulphates will also get in under the cuticle and remove oil from underneath it. This might mean that people who use sulphates particularly benefit from oil rinses before conditioning - the sulphates remove the oil from under the cuticle, the oil rinse replaces it, and the conditioner smooths the cuticle back down with the oil trapped inside.

MusicalSpoons
September 24th, 2018, 08:15 AM
So I washed my hair with a liquid sulfate shampoo for the first time in ages yesterday. Pantene Aqua Light for oily hair, if anyone's curious. After I was done washing I noticed a weird thing.

I used very little shampoo, compared to the amount of a sulfate-free shampoo I normally use to wash my hair.

I always do pre-poo oil treatments, and when I'm trying to wash the oil out with a sulfate-free shampoo, I need a ton of it. To wash the same olive oil our of my hair with a sulfate shampoo I used maybe a third of that amount, if not a quarter. My roots were squeaky clean, because well, I washed only the roots, and my lengths were clean, soft and tangle-free. And it got me thinking.

Doesn't the fact that I need a lot of sulfate-free shampoo makes it just as bad for my hair as a sulfate one? Maybe a little bit of sulfate shampoo is even better than a lot of sulfate-free.

Does anyone have any thoughts about it?

I usually shampoo twice with sulphate-free if I'm doing a full wash (shampooing only roots but length gets wet) or once if a scalp-only (keeping lengths dry), which I always used to with sulphate shampoo anyway. Diluting shampoo means it's easier to distribute using an applicator bottle so I don't end up having to use several lots to get through the hair like I used to, but on the rare occasion I've used sulphate shampoo over the last couple of years I use about the same amount as sulphate-free.

I can imagine sulphates work better for stripping large amounts of oil, but I prefer to use conditioner to get it out (thanks for the tip, LHC!), then shampoo as normal. For routine amounts of oiliness, my gentle sulphate-free shampoo does a good enough job for me :)


I personally don't understand why people make such a a big deal of the sulfate/silicone issue but that's bc my hair doesn't mind either. I've never had trouble with it, so I just don't get it. ;)

I also use a coin size shampoo glob for my whole head (scalp wash and squish suds through the lengths). Just one!

For me, it was the fact that I suddenly learned what was going on my hair, and that it didn't need to be that way. I felt lied to by the hair product companies, though really I was always sceptical of wild claims and just bought whatever was cheap enough and made my hair feel okay. My scalp was always dehydrated, which I just chalked up to 'dry skin' (despite having a definitely oily scalp) and going sulphate-free has made me feel liberated, tbh. I have more control over what goes on my hair and scalp now I understand what most ingredients are, and without sulphates and silicones I have a much happier scalp and hair with life that I never knew it had; it's also much chinier than it ever used to be. I do choose to use water-soluble silicones in one conditioner, and I have used a diluted SLES shampoo to clarify occasionally - though the last couple of times I used sulphates on my scalp, I did have a few dry spots come up that aren't usually there which proved to me that staying away has genuinely helped.

At first I was almost on the craze bandwagon, but I very quickly learned from LHC that sulphates and silicones do have their place and uses, that they are not inherently *bad*. It's just good to be educated and able to use what works for one's own hair, not just what the industry tells you works for your hair :grin:

lapushka
September 24th, 2018, 08:26 AM
At first I was almost on the craze bandwagon, but I very quickly learned from LHC that sulphates and silicones do have their place and uses, that they are not inherently *bad*. It's just good to be educated and able to use what works for one's own hair, not just what the industry tells you works for your hair :grin:

Yeah, we can't all go sulfate-free, unfortunately. I have tried several times even, to no effect. Yeah, SD (seborrheic dermatitis) bouts proved that that wasn't the way to go for me, so I am thankful the industry still makes a distinction too and isn't all jumping on the bandwagon of sulfate-free. If they were to do that, it means I would have to buy Nizoral 2% constantly to wash my hair and for 12 euro per 100ml of product, OMG... expensive!

nycelle
September 24th, 2018, 08:36 AM
I usually shampoo twice with sulphate-free if I'm doing a full wash (shampooing only roots but length gets wet) or once if a scalp-only (keeping lengths dry), which I always used to with sulphate shampoo anyway. Diluting shampoo means it's easier to distribute using an applicator bottle so I don't end up having to use several lots to get through the hair like I used to, but on the rare occasion I've used sulphate shampoo over the last couple of years I use about the same amount as sulphate-free.

I can imagine sulphates work better for stripping large amounts of oil, but I prefer to use conditioner to get it out (thanks for the tip, LHC!), then shampoo as normal. For routine amounts of oiliness, my gentle sulphate-free shampoo does a good enough job for me :)



For me, it was the fact that I suddenly learned what was going on my hair, and that it didn't need to be that way. I felt lied to by the hair product companies, though really I was always sceptical of wild claims and just bought whatever was cheap enough and made my hair feel okay. My scalp was always dehydrated, which I just chalked up to 'dry skin' (despite having a definitely oily scalp) and going sulphate-free has made me feel liberated, tbh. I have more control over what goes on my hair and scalp now I understand what most ingredients are, and without sulphates and silicones I have a much happier scalp and hair with life that I never knew it had; it's also much chinier than it ever used to be. I do choose to use water-soluble silicones in one conditioner, and I have used a diluted SLES shampoo to clarify occasionally - though the last couple of times I used sulphates on my scalp, I did have a few dry spots come up that aren't usually there which proved to me that staying away has genuinely helped.

At first I was almost on the craze bandwagon, but I very quickly learned from LHC that sulphates and silicones do have their place and uses, that they are not inherently *bad*. It's just good to be educated and able to use what works for one's own hair, not just what the industry tells you works for your hair :grin:

To the bolded- I feel the same way. I always thought that an itchy, irritated scalp was "normal." I mean soaps dry out your skin right? That's what shampoo is, a soap for your scalp! It wasn't until last December (or January :hmm: can't remember), that I happened to mention off hand how my scalp always feels dry and itchy when I wash. I was told, stop using SLS. Wonder how many others are out there thinking their conditions can be cured with a dandruff shampoo when in reality, a simple switch to gentler surfactants is all they need. The symptoms are the same in many cases.

Joules
September 24th, 2018, 09:31 AM
I went through *sulfates are evil* phase as well;)
I started to treat my hair as wavy in 2009, went from ''shampoo and brush only'' to using oils, conditionner, deep treatments and of course suldfate-free shampoos ( Co washing never really worked for me) Over 5 years I-ve been happy with my routines but then my hair just changed. It stopped frizzing, became shiny, too much product would weigh it down... and of course the genlte shampoos stopped doing their job. I switched to sulfate shampoos around autumn 2015 and I continue my hair journey;) My waves are pretty happy, healthy and growing.
I was never anti-silicone either.
Products with alcohol, heat, bleach- that is worse.

Absolutely agree that alcohol, heat and bleach are far worse than anything else!


I personally don't understand why people make such a a big deal of the sulfate/silicone issue but that's bc my hair doesn't mind either. I've never had trouble with it, so I just don't get it. ;)

I also use a coin size shampoo glob for my whole head (scalp wash and squish suds through the lengths). Just one!

Well, going sulfate free did help my hair tremendously. It's just that it helped for a different reason than I initially thought. I believe you need to know what exactly goes on to be able to make any statements, and I just blindly went with this trend.


Just have to jump in here and say that for me, sulphates are the worst thing for eczema in my experience. I don't doubt some people need to use sulphates, and I don't doubt a lot of people get on with them just fine. Just ... probably not with eczema.

(Btw, there's an emollient cream prescribed and sold over here *specifically for the treatment of eczema* which contains SLS to preserve it :confused: ... it comes with a warning of the risk of irritation :doh: :rolleyes: )

Of course if you have eczema you need to use only things that agree with it :) just like it's the case with everything else. I'm not particularly sensitive, at least not to sulfates, so I'm speaking from my point of view.


It was first, I believe, discontinued in the US, and it went on being available here for months after that in Belgium. Now it looks like it's gone as well. Can't find it in any stores around here anymore. None. The volumizing Pantene one is about similar, if you're interested in a sulfate/silicone free alternative! I used to switch between the two, depending on what was available in store. Don't get the classic one (I believe that has silicones), the volumizing one is the one to go for next if it ever disappears. :) HTH! :flower:

Thanks! There's a brand new Pantene shampoo similar to AL here in Russia, it's called Micellar Cleansing, the descripton is exactly the same as AL (gentle but thorough cleansing of oily hair), so even if AL gets discontinued, I'll be covered :D also I foung that a lot of other Pantene shampoos are cone-free. I used to love this brand when I was in my early teens, it's nice to be re-discovering it 10+ years later.


All I know is my scalp feels great - no more itchiness, and my hair less dry, even though I wash twice.

So for me, sulfate free was 100% the way to go.

eta: From what I understand, you're not supposed to use more of a low poo than a sulfate shampoo. It's not gonna foam but that's normal, it's still cleaning.
I do wash twice and use a massage brush because I like the feel of squeaky clean scalp. But it's not the norm to do this with sulfate free.

I do agree that going sulfate-free is great for dry and sensitive scalp. My scalp is normal to oily (a bit oilier during PMS). If I co-wash or wash with a very gentle shampoo when my scalp is noticeably oily, I always notice mild itchiness and tender hair follicles. I used to ignore it, just because it wasn't too uncomfortable, until I discovered that those are the signs of overgrowth of malassezia (scalp fungus, it thrives in sebum), and it can potentially lead to seborrheic dermatitis and hairloss if left untreated. It took me a lot of time to develop those symptoms, people with oilier scalps who repeatedly stretch washes and not use appropriate shampoo develop them much faster.

I noticed that my scalp feels much better when I use shampoos from Natura Siberica, it's a so-called "faux-sulfate-free" brand, it's reasonably harsh even though it doesn't contain sulfates. Also using anti-fungal essential oils on my scalp made some noticeable difference (I used them for hair growth, but got a fresher-feeling scalp instead). So those were another signs for me that it was time to change things. My mom has dry and sensitive scalp and she's fine with sulfate-free shampoos. I don't want to risk anything, so I'm paying more attention to proper cleansing from now on, or at least experimenting with proper cleansing. Besides, my ends remain dry and crunchy even when I don't use shampoo at all, so I'm pretty much giving up on them.

nycelle
September 24th, 2018, 09:36 AM
^^ That's exactly it, to each their own. No on should jump on any bandwagon, just do what works best for them.

I do wish that medical doctors, dermatologists specifically, understood that having a flaky scalp doesn't automatically mean dandruff though. This happened to me in the winter, but it was because my scalp was so freakin' dry. Using a dandruff shampoo burned like a bitch and probably just made it worse.

Just glad I have a good derma. now.

Joules
September 24th, 2018, 09:42 AM
At first I was almost on the craze bandwagon, but I very quickly learned from LHC that sulphates and silicones do have their place and uses, that they are not inherently *bad*. It's just good to be educated and able to use what works for one's own hair, not just what the industry tells you works for your hair :grin:

Very well said!

MusicalSpoons
September 24th, 2018, 10:11 AM
Yeah, we can't all go sulfate-free, unfortunately. I have tried several times even, to no effect. Yeah, SD (seborrheic dermatitis) bouts proved that that wasn't the way to go for me, so I am thankful the industry still makes a distinction too and isn't all jumping on the bandwagon of sulfate-free. If they were to do that, it means I would have to buy Nizoral 2% constantly to wash my hair and for 12 euro per 100ml of product, OMG... expensive!

Despite my own experience, I'm still not sure why sulphate-free has a reputation as being the favourable thing :shrug: I think it should be 'marketed' (for want of a better word; brainpower is failing) as an alternative to try, of equal standing with sulphates - it seems plenty of people do get on with them fine, whether they need them or not. The only thing I have against them is that I didn't know they are not best for me, until I learned about and tried something different :lol: I dunno, is there some wider issue with them that I'm not aware of?



Of course if you have eczema you need to use only things that agree with it :) just like it's the case with everything else. I'm not particularly sensitive, at least not to sulfates, so I'm speaking from my point of view.

(I only mentioned eczema as I was replying to the poster who mentioned both SD and eczema as conditions needing sulphates - we know SD certainly can do, but most likely not eczema :) )


I do agree that going sulfate-free is great for dry and sensitive scalp. My scalp is normal to oily (a bit oilier during PMS). If I co-wash or wash with a very gentle shampoo when my scalp is noticeably oily, I always notice mild itchiness and tender hair follicles. I used to ignore it, just because it wasn't too uncomfortable, until I discovered that those are the signs of overgrowth of malassezia (scalp fungus, it thrives in sebum), and it can potentially lead to seborrheic dermatitis and hairloss if left untreated. It took me a lot of time to develop those symptoms, people with oilier scalps who repeatedly stretch washes and not use appropriate shampoo develop them much faster.

I noticed that my scalp feels much better when I use shampoos from Natura Siberica, it's a so-called "faux-sulfate-free" brand, it's reasonably harsh even though it doesn't contain sulfates. Also using anti-fungal essential oils on my scalp made some noticeable difference (I used them for hair growth, but got a fresher-feeling scalp instead). So those were another signs for me that it was time to change things. My mom has dry and sensitive scalp and she's fine with sulfate-free shampoos. I don't want to risk anything, so I'm paying more attention to proper cleansing from now on, or at least experimenting with proper cleansing. Besides, my ends remain dry and crunchy even when I don't use shampoo at all, so I'm pretty much giving up on them.

I didn't know those were symptoms of malassezia overgrowth! I'm glad you mentioned, as my scalp is definitely oily (it was just dehydrated before due to the sulphates stripping too much, not doesn't-produce-oil dry) and I do often have very mild itching after washing. It doesn't persist once I've combed my hair after it's totally dried, but good to know to be vigilant! I try to get my scalp properly clean, but still.

Funnily enough I also use Natura Siberica, and at first I tried their anti-dandruff shampoo which was still too harsh and gave me dehydrated, flaky skin, just not as badly as before with sulphates. I now use their Neutral&Sensitive shampoo, which has a lot of gentle cleansers and not coco-betaine as the first ingredient!


^^ That's exactly it, to each their own. No on should jump on any bandwagon, just do what works best for them.

I do wish that medical doctors, dermatologists specifically, understood that having a flaky scalp doesn't automatically mean dandruff though. This happened to me in the winter, but it was because my scalp was so freakin' dry. Using a dandruff shampoo burned like a bitch and probably just made it worse.

Just glad I have a good derma. now.

When I learned the difference between actual, 'doesn't-produce-oil' dry and 'dehydrated' dry, the penny dropped for me. It also explained why my scalp was worse in winter yet still needed washing just as often! I'm sure doctors must know the difference (surely?!) but it would be so useful if they'd educate their patients too, so we can make more informed decisions. Knowing my skin (and scalp) needs moisture has made a huge difference, and I can manage and prevent symptoms far better than if I'd just blindly followed the instructions to put the cream on without being able to do anything else helpful or actually understanding what was going on.

renia22
September 24th, 2018, 11:18 AM
Doesn't the fact that I need a lot of sulfate-free shampoo makes it just as bad for my hair as a sulfate one? Maybe a little bit of sulfate shampoo is even better than a lot of sulfate-free.


Are you familiar with The Beauty Brains or Science-y hair blogs? They have some good info. Basically, “sulfate free” is a marketing term, it does *not* mean that a product will automatically be more gentle or not drying/ better. It all depends on the overall formula/ concentrations/etc. So yes, if you are using a sulfate free shampoo, and you have to use more/ or manipulate your hair more, then the one with sulfates that cleans simply and rinses out easily might be the gentler/ better of the 2. Overall formulas and concentrations matter!

I love Pantene Aqualight too, it’s been discontinued in the US, and I hate the smell of the new ones, but luckily I still have a stash.

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/shampoos-harsh-mild-and-otherwise.html?m=1

Joules
September 24th, 2018, 11:22 AM
Despite my own experience, I'm still not sure why sulphate-free has a reputation as being the favourable thing :shrug: I think it should be 'marketed' (for want of a better word; brainpower is failing) as an alternative to try, of equal standing with sulphates - it seems plenty of people do get on with them fine, whether they need them or not. The only thing I have against them is that I didn't know they are not best for me, until I learned about and tried something different :lol: I dunno, is there some wider issue with them that I'm not aware of?





I didn't know those were symptoms of malassezia overgrowth! I'm glad you mentioned, as my scalp is definitely oily (it was just dehydrated before due to the sulphates stripping too much, not doesn't-produce-oil dry) and I do often have very mild itching after washing. It doesn't persist once I've combed my hair after it's totally dried, but good to know to be vigilant! I try to get my scalp properly clean, but still.

Funnily enough I also use Natura Siberica, and at first I tried their anti-dandruff shampoo which was still too harsh and gave me dehydrated, flaky skin, just not as badly as before with sulphates. I now use their Neutral&Sensitive shampoo, which has a lot of gentle cleansers and not coco-betaine as the first ingredient!

Sulfates are considered evil first of all because they are too "stripping", and secondly because a lot of people believe they get into the bloodstream and cause all kinds of issues. You know how this goes, one person misinterpreted a scientific study, others believed him and the whole thing got blown way out of proportion. I even saw tv programs with this kind of conspiracy theories, like, "omg did you know that your shampoo is trying to kill you???". It's ridiculous, people don't need to be scared to death of a shampoo bottle.

You can try a scalp peeling or an anti-seborrheic lotion to combat malassezia if you really don't want to use sulfates. I definitely want to try those things, but they are waaay too expensive, at least here where I live :(

I tried only shampoos for dry hair from Natura Siberica, my favourite one is called Volume&Moisture (or something like that, greenish-blue bottle). This one made my scalp feel the best. I also loved the matching conditioner for co-washing. I used to be so scared of shampoos in general that I couldn't even try a sulfate-free shampoo that's not for dry hair!

Joules
September 24th, 2018, 11:24 AM
Are you familiar with The Beauty Brains or Science-y hair blogs? They have some good info. Basically, “sulfate free” is a marketing term, it does *not* mean that a product will automatically be more gentle or not drying/ better. It all depends on the overall formula/ concentrations/etc. So yes, if you are using a sulfate free shampoo, and you have to use more/ or manipulate your hair more, then the one with sulfates that cleans simply and rinses out easily might be the gentler/ better of the 2. Overall formulas and concentrations matter!

I love Pantene Aqualight too, it’s been discontinued in the US, and I hate the smell of the new ones, but luckily I still have a stash.

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2011/08/shampoos-harsh-mild-and-otherwise.html?m=1

I love Science-y hair blog! That's the main reason I changed my outlook on hair care and hair itself and decided to try silicones and sulfates after 8 years of not using them :) I mainly read articles about silicones there though, I needed more time to decide on whether to use them or not, sulfates were a much easier decision to make.

renia22
September 24th, 2018, 11:35 AM
I love Science-y hair blog! That's the main reason I changed my outlook on hair care and hair itself and decided to try silicones and sulfates after 8 years of not using them :) I mainly read articles about silicones there though, I needed more time to decide on whether to use them or not, sulfates were a much easier decision to make.

Same here! I ended up going back to both. I really struggled with weighed down/ build-up-y hair with sulfate free shampoos, and natural conditioners and the oils/ butters that they use, too. Haven’t really noticed an issue with conventional products, as long as they are for my hair type and don’t have things like that snuck in (OGX I’ve noticed does that; a few other brands).

lakhesis
September 24th, 2018, 11:42 AM
You can try a scalp peeling or an anti-seborrheic lotion to combat malassezia if you really don't want to use sulfates. I definitely want to try those things, but they are waaay too expensive, at least here where I live :(

I once read about puting tea tree oil in your shampoo (or dilute it and apply directly to scalp and then wash). It's naturally antifungal and antiseptic and it should help with scalp issues. Might be a cheap way to replace those products if you can't get them. I do add tea tree oil to my shampoo but I never had any issues before so I can't tell if it's doing anything.

Joules
September 24th, 2018, 12:02 PM
I once read about puting tea tree oil in your shampoo (or dilute it and apply directly to scalp and then wash). It's naturally antifungal and antiseptic and it should help with scalp issues. Might be a cheap way to replace those products if you can't get them. I do add tea tree oil to my shampoo but I never had any issues before so I can't tell if it's doing anything.

I used peppermint and rosemary essential oils on my scalp for a few months (diluted in grapeseed oil as a pre-poo scalp treatment), those EOs have anti-fungal properties too. My scalp did feel better, so I'll definitely be repurchasing them soon, maybe I'll add tea tree to my list as well.

MusicalSpoons
September 24th, 2018, 12:29 PM
I once read about puting tea tree oil in your shampoo (or dilute it and apply directly to scalp and then wash). It's naturally antifungal and antiseptic and it should help with scalp issues. Might be a cheap way to replace those products if you can't get them. I do add tea tree oil to my shampoo but I never had any issues before so I can't tell if it's doing anything.


I used peppermint and rosemary essential oils on my scalp for a few months (diluted in grapeseed oil as a pre-poo scalp treatment), those EOs have anti-fungal properties too. My scalp did feel better, so I'll definitely be repurchasing them soon, maybe I'll add tea tree to my list as well.

In your shampoo is a great viable alternative, if you don't have time for pre-poo oiling or if (like me) you cannot work out how to distribute oil on your scalp properly :silly:

Zesty
September 24th, 2018, 02:36 PM
I use sulfates copiously. Similar to lapushka, I use several globs (of clarifying shampoo, in my case) and make sure to get every bit of my scalp. But then I do it again and let the shampoo sit. :lol: The combination of Suave Daily Clarifying and then Neutrogena T-Gel has been a lifesaver. I found one sulfate-free shampoo that did okay but I still got build up pretty quick and couldn't stretch washes due to flakes. And that's one of the important things to me: getting my hair clean enough that I can go longer between washes and avoid hydral fatigue and mechanical damage.

Of course, sulfates can be drying to the scalp itself and stripping for your hair, so YMMV. I try to combat that by doing heavy oilings on my length before washing, or if I can't do that, using lapushka's ROO method with baby oil. I also make sure that my hair is good and ready for a wash -- there's no reason to use such stripping products before your hair is oily IMO. And I condition the heck out of my length after.

And this thread isn't explicitly about silicones, but I certainly use those too. I tried to fight with silicone-free stuff but it just didn't give me enough slip, and I want my hair to be as easy as possible to detangle so that I avoid over-manipulation and breakage.

lapushka
September 24th, 2018, 04:21 PM
Zesty, have you ever tried the OTC Nizoral? Maybe that'll help you get the flakes at bay? If you have tried, just ignore & sorry (don't mean to meddle). :)

Zesty
September 24th, 2018, 04:29 PM
Zesty, have you ever tried the OTC Nizoral? Maybe that'll help you get the flakes at bay? If you have tried, just ignore & sorry (don't mean to meddle). :)

I have, and it didn't work well for me. The coal tar shampoo is the only thing that's made them go away, so I'm not going to mess with what's working haha! But thanks. :flower:

lithostoic
September 24th, 2018, 05:26 PM
It depends on the person. I can't give you an answer because I can't use sulfates at all. They give me dermatitis. Keep experimenting and you will find your answer.

kph12
September 25th, 2018, 08:12 AM
I noticed this exact thing! I was using sulfate free products for about two years when I had to go out of town for work. I was irresponsible and didn't pack the night before my trip and I forgot to pack my shampoo and conditioner :( I ended up using the hotel shampoo and conditioner and I noticed that my hair was so light a smooth the next day. Looking back I think I probably had some product build up and the sulfates in the hotel shampoo removed it.

I'll now occasionally (like once every 3-4 months) use a sulfate shampoo when I feel like i have some product build up on my strands or scalp.

Spar
September 25th, 2018, 08:42 AM
I used to co-wash only for over a year but I didn't see much improvement. It made my hair feel soft, but it was still feeling thick and hard to manage. I went back to shampoo & conditioner with sulfate free/silicone free products. My hair was feeling softer and a bit easier to manage, but I was still getting breakage and dryness at the ends. I've started using sulfates/silicones and my hair is so much better now! It's very smooth and shiny, almost TOO smooth sometimes. It feels so much more resilient and I can wear it down for months/sleep on it without much breakage.

I'm glad I went back to traditional shampoo/conditioner, and I don't think they're as bad as everyone says. I use products targeted towards dry/damaged hair because my ends can get so dry, and I've seen a big improvement.

Alex Lou
September 25th, 2018, 09:42 AM
My goal is to go as long as I can comfortably between washes. Sulfates give me the best advantage there. I find that I can use less shampoo by double shampooing. The first time I shampoo, I don't get any suds and it doesn't spread well around my scalp. Seems that mixing with all my natural oils kind of neutralizes it. Once I rinse all that away, the second shampoo suds and a small amount spreads easily all over my scalp and that's when I actually scrub my scalp.

postpixie88
September 25th, 2018, 10:12 AM
I always use a sulfate shampoo to wash out oil treatments, so I only do it once a week. I agree, it takes SO much sulfate-free shampoo to remove oil properly. If I'm not going to use a sulfate shampoo that day I'll either not use oil or just put a little in my ends.

Alissalocks
September 25th, 2018, 10:29 AM
For me, it was the fact that I suddenly learned what was going on my hair, and that it didn't need to be that way. I felt lied to by the hair product companies, though really I was always sceptical of wild claims and just bought whatever was cheap enough and made my hair feel okay. My scalp was always dehydrated, which I just chalked up to 'dry skin' (despite having a definitely oily scalp) and going sulphate-free has made me feel liberated, tbh. I have more control over what goes on my hair and scalp now I understand what most ingredients are, and without sulphates and silicones I have a much happier scalp and hair with life that I never knew it had; it's also much chinier than it ever used to be. I do choose to use water-soluble silicones in one conditioner, and I have used a diluted SLES shampoo to clarify occasionally - though the last couple of times I used sulphates on my scalp, I did have a few dry spots come up that aren't usually there which proved to me that staying away has genuinely helped.

At first I was almost on the craze bandwagon, but I very quickly learned from LHC that sulphates and silicones do have their place and uses, that they are not inherently *bad*. It's just good to be educated and able to use what works for one's own hair, not just what the industry tells you works for your hair :grin:

I totally get this! I also felt lied to by the hair companies, and took a similar strategy to my hair care. You're right that it's more important to listen to one's own scalp health and that's so individual, there are just no all right or wrong answers. Helps so much to learn from everyone here, I love it. Thank you for sharing this!!

MoreSky
September 25th, 2018, 10:54 AM
This is a helpful thread. I like to rotate products and methods (+-sulfates/+-cones/CO/diluting/mixing shampoos/vinegar) a couple times a month and it seems to give me the balance I need. And most of the time it’s fun until I have to be somewhere important and have gunkhead hair that day. I’m inspired by some of the experiments done here. My bathroom feels like a hair lab!

lapushka
September 26th, 2018, 10:33 AM
This is a helpful thread. I like to rotate products and methods (+-sulfates/+-cones/CO/diluting/mixing shampoos/vinegar) a couple times a month and it seems to give me the balance I need. And most of the time it’s fun until I have to be somewhere important and have gunkhead hair that day. I’m inspired by some of the experiments done here. My bathroom feels like a hair lab!

Totally get you on that. I was like that when I first got here. Now I seem to have slipped into a nice comfy routine, and it's working for me, so... whatever works, right? It's so different for everyone.

Sneaksuperstar
June 6th, 2023, 06:44 PM
I’m so happy that I saw your reply! I just tried sulfate free shampoo for the second time ever about an hour ago and let my hair air dry. It dried a bit puffy which I thought was weird. When I went to look at my scalp so many flakes came out my hair to the point that it looked like it was snowing. I thought it was dandruff but looked up seborrheic dermatitis on the scalp and now realized that’s what was happening. Sulfate-free is now a big no no for me.

rosmarinus
June 7th, 2023, 12:50 AM
Personally I don't like how my hair feels after washing it with sulfates. Even after using a bigger amount of no-sulfate shampoo my hair still feels better than after sulfate wash.
I'm still going to have an experiment with a dilluted sulfate shampoo.
I have this annoying problem that, what it comes to shampoos, that almost everything seems to be too much for my hair but nothing seems to be enough to cleanse my scalp as effectively as I would prefer.

mochichichi
June 7th, 2023, 08:29 AM
I have this annoying problem that, what it comes to shampoos, that almost everything seems to be too much for my hair but nothing seems to be enough to cleanse my scalp as effectively as I would prefer.

Have you tried scalp only washes? Or putting oil or conditioner over your length? CWC might help, put some conditioner over your length and shampoo the scalp without rinsing out the conditioner.

ArienEllariel
June 7th, 2023, 12:11 PM
For me I think that with the amount of oil my scalp produces, it's hard to find a sulfate free shampoo that takes care of the oil without lots of buildup. Lately I've been in a "less is more" kind of routine for my hair. I'm finishing off some strong sulfate shampoo and throw on whatever cheap cone-free and sometimes coney conditioner I have. The main difference for me is not letting my hair sit in the stream of water besides what I need to wash it. I think I was experiencing far more dryness in the lengths from hot water damage than from the sulfates themselves. I still only apply them to my roots but I've noticed a huge improvement from not standing under the shower stream with my hair any more than I need to. Apply a little leave-in post shower and finish with either an oil or serum on my ends and my hair feels just fine.

mochichichi
June 7th, 2023, 02:38 PM
The main difference for me is not letting my hair sit in the stream of water besides what I need to wash it. I think I was experiencing far more dryness in the lengths from hot water damage than from the sulfates themselves. I still only apply them to my roots but I've noticed a huge improvement from not standing under the shower stream with my hair any more than I need to. Apply a little leave-in post shower and finish with either an oil or serum on my ends and my hair feels just fine.

I've started washing my hair in a bucket separate from my shower (wash in the morning, shower in the evening) and I've noticed the same. Since the water isn't getting on the rest of my body, I'm able to wash in cool water, which I would never do when I'm washing during my shower. My hair hasn't been drying out as fast as it usually does.

rosmarinus
June 8th, 2023, 01:09 AM
Have you tried scalp only washes? Or putting oil or conditioner over your length? CWC might help, put some conditioner over your length and shampoo the scalp without rinsing out the conditioner.

Yes I have, my lengths are doing pretty good with these methods, but I don't like how shampoo makes my roots so dry. Last time I washed my hair I tried to mix some oil and AVG with shampoo and it helped on that one, my hair feels moisturized and manageable from roots to ends. I'm going to try that again next wash. But still I need to figure out how to get scalp squeaky clean without drying my hair, I guess I need to wash it with something stronger once in a while, my hair is just so fine and fragile and my follicies have also always been naturally quite weak so I'm very cautious of strong shampoos.