The Silicone Dilemma

[Joules]

My ends are velcro beyond salvation, but I'm still adamant about growing further. Cutting it off won't work, it will grow back just as velcroey. I've been taking great care of my hair for almost a decade, it's not like I have bleach or heat damage.


The other day I was contemplating what else I could do for my hair, and the question arose in my head. The Silicone Question.


I've been silicone-free since summer of 2010. Before that I'd been using, well, bad products. Very very very harsh shampoos, conditioners that consisted of just water and silicone, similar leave-ins. No oils, no nothin', I was reading what was promised on a bottle and mindlessly believing it. So naturally switching to natural sulfate and cone-free hair care was great for me.


I still believe that my cone-free routine is beneficial for me. But! What if I do need cones to be able to grow my hair longer? What if silicone is the only thing that can help my velcro ends get better (= less tangly) and survive the growing journey? I may get just one product with silicones, like conditioner, and use it after a cone-free mask only on the last 5 inches of my hair to seal in all the stuff.


But then there's another thing I don't get. If I use a conditioner with silicones, would it prevent my leave-in cream and oil from penetrating my hair? Or silicones aren't the bulletproof shield I imagine them to be and my leave-ins would still work, right? I'm interested to know all the science behind it. Maybe the best solution would be the coney leave-in that I would apply after my cone-free leave-in?


My questions might seem stupid, but please be patient with me :D I've been silicone-free since the age of 16 (which makes it 8 years, a third of my life so far), I believed in it wholeheartedly, and questioning silicones right now is a big deal for me and my hair care :D

I would also like to add that I don't have a lot of split ends and breakage. My ends are extremely dry and tangle easily, that's it.


I'm especially curios to hear from longhairs with BCL+ length and similar hairtype to mine (2a-2b waves, fine to medium and very fragile hair). Do you find silicones essential in your hair care? Is it even possible to have extreme length and be cone-free?

[lapushka]

I would not call harsh sulfates and silicone products "bad". I use them and I find nothing bad about them.

If you use products without silicones, often there's oils and waxes and they can build up on the hair as fast as silicones do - it's not necessarily "better".

I would make sure to clarify wash regularly (I weekly wash and also weekly clarify as I sulfate wash), at least once or twice a month, and then see what that does for you.

I use products with or without silicones on and off, I don't even pay attention anymore, but there's probably more in there *with* silicones than without.

I have never had issues with my hair. I have had velcro ends but that was when I had bleach damage or henna in my hair. And those days are long behind me.

I hope you find something that works. I would start by clarify washing thoroughly a few times (a few consecutive washes, I mean whenever you need to wash, and then wash next).

[MusicalSpoons]

I don't mean this as a flippant response at all, I just don't have the brain power to process and respond to everything you've said - I do understand that this is a big deal for you.

I personally find that ROO (link in lapushka's signature) gives me the slip and protection that my ends need. Again we're into murky scientific territory because I don't understand why it works so well and allows conditioner and leave-ins to do their thing :shrug: however, my hairtype is different and my hair seems to be less damage-prone than you describe yours to be, so this may be completely unhelpful. Just thought I'd share anyway :flower:

[nycelle]

There are silicones that wash out and don't build up, you can always try those and see how it works.
But I would probably first try it in a serum or leave in conditioner product since you only want it on the ends.

My ends are also drier, and get sticky if there's build-up, or I recently discovered, too much protein in my products.

Maybe try clarifying first, and going completely protein free?

[Joules]

lapushka, thank you for your opinion! When I said I used bad products, I didn't mean ordinary drugstore stuff. I meant cheap, horrible and absolutely useless turds. Shampoos were great for harsh clarifying, but then masks and conditioners weren't providing anything to replenish moisture in the hair. Those things were recommended to me by my mom's hairdresser, so I was annoyed with both the brand and the hairdresser.

I clarify once every three weeks with a shampoo bar from Lush, which is like 90% pure SLS. My hair does feel a ton better after clarifying, and then after a couple of washes it's back to its normal velcroey state. I think I'll try sulfates every two weeks from now on. I still doubt I can use sulfates on a regular basis though, they were causing me insane breakage and dryness in the past.

[Joules]

nycelle, my ends feel better after a protein pack I sometimes add to my conditioners, weirdly enough. It's called a hyaluronic filler, but it's basically glycerin and various hydrolized proteins. I think my ends are very porous and that's the reason they like it (I've never had any stickiness). I've been using less of this protein treatment lately because it makes my scalp very itchy, but when I do use it the difference is remarkable, my ends stay decent for a bit longer before drying out.

[Joules]

I don't mean this as a flippant response at all, I just don't have the brain power to process and respond to everything you've said - I do understand that this is a big deal for you.

I personally find that ROO (link in lapushka's signature) gives me the slip and protection that my ends need. Again we're into murky scientific territory because I don't understand why it works so well and allows conditioner and leave-ins to do their thing :shrug: however, my hairtype is different and my hair seems to be less damage-prone than you describe yours to be, so this may be completely unhelpful. Just thought I'd share anyway :flower:

I keep thinking about ROO, but can't bring myself to do it :D part of the reason is that I don't really get the science behind it, too (plus I already spend enough time in the shower without a second conditioner, lol). I think I just have to try it next non-clarifying wash day, there's not many other options for me to save my hair.

[nycelle]

Ahhh..I see. I thought when you said velcro ends you meant sticky.
But yeah, nothing wrong with trying silicone, and like I said, you can always try the ones that wash out without sulfates.
There's a list of the various silicones on the Sciencey Hairblog, but I'm on my phone and don't have the link here.

If you dont have it, maybe someone can link it.
She has a ton of info., you may get some ideas there as well.

[lapushka]

lapushka, thank you for your opinion! When I said I used bad products, I didn't mean ordinary drugstore stuff. I meant cheap, horrible and absolutely useless turds. Shampoos were great for harsh clarifying, but then masks and conditioners weren't providing anything to replenish moisture in the hair. Those things were recommended to me by my mom's hairdresser, so I was annoyed with both the brand and the hairdresser.

I clarify once every three weeks with a shampoo bar from Lush, which is like 90% pure SLS. My hair does feel a ton better after clarifying, and then after a couple of washes it's back to its normal velcroey state. I think I'll try sulfates every two weeks from now on. I still doubt I can use sulfates on a regular basis though, they were causing me insane breakage and dryness in the past.

I'd skip the Lush stuff, and buy a regular shampoo (the Pantene volume one, for instance, is + sulfates - silicones, so good for clarifying). I don't know why but the shampoo bar might also be mucking stuff up (some hair reacts oddly to it and you might have that type of hair).

Loepsie here on YT used the Lush shampoo bars in her late teens, then noticed the same things you are + extreme amounts of shedding. She switched to sulfate free and got better. Now she can use a regular sulfate shampoo, but NOT the Lush stuff. So I'd be careful!

[lapushka]

I keep thinking about ROO, but can't bring myself to do it :D part of the reason is that I don't really get the science behind it, too (plus I already spend enough time in the shower without a second conditioner, lol). I think I just have to try it next non-clarifying wash day, there's not many other options for me to save my hair.

You can only try, but I would only venture into this if you have clarified really well, and not under any other circumstances. It is what it is. I don't bother even trying to explain it. The initial idea isn't mine either. I saw it on a YT video, which is linked in the first post. Only the woman in the video uses it all over her hair, + scalp, and I have adapted it to the ends of the hair. But YMMV. You don't have to use a second conditioner with ROO at all. WCC and ROO are two separate things, Joules.

[Rowdy]

You might want to check out the science hair thread if you haven't already. There is a lot of good info on silicones and other common ingredients in there:

https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=136845

I don't think what I have to add will be much help as I have very coarse hair but when I went silicone free for a bit I found it was actually the silicone free conditioners giving me rough and grabby ends, not the lack of silicone themselves.

[MusicalSpoons]

I keep thinking about ROO, but can't bring myself to do it :D part of the reason is that I don't really get the science behind it, too (plus I already spend enough time in the shower without a second conditioner, lol). I think I just have to try it next non-clarifying wash day, there's not many other options for me to save my hair.


You can only try, but I would only venture into this if you have clarified really well, and not under any other circumstances. It is what it is. I don't bother even trying to explain it. The initial idea isn't mine either. I saw it on a YT video, which is linked in the first post. Only the woman in the video uses it all over her hair, + scalp, and I have adapted it to the ends of the hair. But YMMV. You don't have to use a second conditioner with ROO at all. WCC and ROO are two separate things, Joules.

Yes, I've only recently started WCC and found my hair prefers more conditioner (typical :rolleyes: ) but ROO is completely separate. When I started, I used it just between S and C; you can oil then rinse then condition, or oil then condition without rinsing in between. I usually take about a minute to try to make sure it's got through all of the ends, kind of squishing it in, then if I rinse it's an extra half a minute, but it can literally just take an extra, not even 30? seconds if you put it on then condition straight over it. Easy peasy. But if you do try, start with little then work up to more - it is so easy to overdo. I don't usually care if I overdo it because my hair's always up :grin: but some people can't stand it.

Back to silicones, a couple of useful hair blog links:
Silicone solubility http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2014/04/silicone-ingredient-solubility-list.html
Detergents to remove silicones http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2016/05/detergents-which-remove-silicones.html (you might not need sulphates)

[Joules]

I'd skip the Lush stuff, and buy a regular shampoo (the Pantene volume one, for instance, is + sulfates - silicones, so good for clarifying). I don't know why but the shampoo bar might also be mucking stuff up (some hair reacts oddly to it and you might have that type of hair).

Loepsie here on YT used the Lush shampoo bars in her late teens, then noticed the same things you are + extreme amounts of shedding. She switched to sulfate free and got better. Now she can use a regular sulfate shampoo, but NOT the Lush stuff. So I'd be careful!


I'd skip the Lush stuff, and buy a regular shampoo (the Pantene volume one, for instance, is + sulfates - silicones, so good for clarifying). I don't know why but the shampoo bar might also be mucking stuff up (some hair reacts oddly to it and you might have that type of hair).

Loepsie here on YT used the Lush shampoo bars in her late teens, then noticed the same things you are + extreme amounts of shedding. She switched to sulfate free and got better. Now she can use a regular sulfate shampoo, but NOT the Lush stuff. So I'd be careful!

I had dry ends issue before buying Lush shampoo, also I don't see any more shedding. I used once every three weeks after all. Loepsie might have had an allergic reaction of sorts, I had shedding after using certain products before. But I will definitely look into regular shampoos, who knows :)


You can only try, but I would only venture into this if you have clarified really well, and not under any other circumstances. It is what it is. I don't bother even trying to explain it. The initial idea isn't mine either. I saw it on a YT video, which is linked in the first post. Only the woman in the video uses it all over her hair, + scalp, and I have adapted it to the ends of the hair. But YMMV. You don't have to use a second conditioner with ROO at all. WCC and ROO are two separate things, Joules.


Yes, I've only recently started WCC and found my hair prefers more conditioner (typical :rolleyes: ) but ROO is completely separate. When I started, I used it just between S and C; you can oil then rinse then condition, or oil then condition without rinsing in between. I usually take about a minute to try to make sure it's got through all of the ends, kind of squishing it in, then if I rinse it's an extra half a minute, but it can literally just take an extra, not even 30? seconds if you put it on then condition straight over it. Easy peasy. But if you do try, start with little then work up to more - it is so easy to overdo. I don't usually care if I overdo it because my hair's always up :grin: but some people can't stand it.

Back to silicones, a couple of useful hair blog links:
Silicone solubility http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2014/04/silicone-ingredient-solubility-list.html
Detergents to remove silicones http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2016/05/detergents-which-remove-silicones.html (you might not need sulphates)

Thanks for the links!

Ok, you convinced me with the ROO stuff, I'm trying it today! I still have a couple of hours before washing (it's clarifying day today), so I'll go read which oils are best for it :) thanks!

[lapushka]

Yes, I've only recently started WCC and found my hair prefers more conditioner (typical :rolleyes: ) but ROO is completely separate. When I started, I used it just between S and C; you can oil then rinse then condition, or oil then condition without rinsing in between. I usually take about a minute to try to make sure it's got through all of the ends, kind of squishing it in, then if I rinse it's an extra half a minute, but it can literally just take an extra, not even 30? seconds if you put it on then condition straight over it. Easy peasy. But if you do try, start with little then work up to more - it is so easy to overdo. I don't usually care if I overdo it because my hair's always up :grin: but some people can't stand it.

Ain't that the truth; start with *drops* of oil, about 5, just a tiny puddle the size of a pea. Rub between palms and smoothed over the very ends of the hair. But DO clarify really well up front! Don't do this on hair that is about to be clarified. I would do it early on in the routine, and it will help protect the ends after a sulfate.

[Joules]

Also I think I need to add that dry and grabby ends for me start after certain length. My hair care has been pretty much the same for all these 8 years, sometimes there are more oils, sometimes there are more shampoos, sometimes there are more conditioners, but overall principles I go by have been the same. My hair is great until it reaches a point between waist and hip, and then the nightmare begins. It might be just an issue of hair care, maybe my hair needs more than I already give it, maybe it needs something different, or maybe it's because I have a shorter terminal length. I really really don't want to have short terminal, so I'm willing to try absolutely anything to salvage my hair. I'm currently less than 2 inches away from BCL, I'll start maintaining when I reach it, so I'm looking for something to save my ends while I'm microtrimming the velcro away.

[Obsidian]

Do you know if you have hard water? Mineral build up can also cause crunchy, velcro ends and regular sulfate shampoo won't remove it. You'll need a chelating or swimmers shampoo.

[nycelle]

Oh, I meant to ask, what do you mean by "velcro" ends since it's not that they're sticky? Trying to understand LHC speak here..lol..

[Joules]

Obsidian, it might be. I've heard that everywhere in Russia the water is hard. But then could this be an issue that manifests itself after a certain length of hair? My hair is ok when it's shorter. Also I tried a shower filter last year, it did absolutely nothing for me.


Oh, I meant to ask, what do you mean by "velcro" ends since it's not that they're sticky? Trying to understand LHC speak here..lol..

My ends feel and behave like those thingies that are very rough and cling to each other (at least that's what I mean by it, lol)

https://www.seattlefabrics.com/thumbnail.asp?file=assets/images/zipper%20slider/velcro_tape_3.jpg&maxx=300&maxy=0

[nycelle]

Obsidian, it might be. I've heard that everywhere in Russia the water is hard. But then could this be an issue that manifests itself after a certain length of hair? My hair is ok when it's shorter. Also I tried a shower filter last year, it did absolutely nothing for me.



My ends feel and behave like those thingies that are very rough and cling to each other (at least that's what I mean by it, lol)

https://www.seattlefabrics.com/thumbnail.asp?file=assets/images/zipper%20slider/velcro_tape_3.jpg&maxx=300&maxy=0

yeah, that's what i meant by sticky!! lol.. you have my scratching my head.. hahaha..

[MusicalSpoons]

Also I think I need to add that dry and grabby ends for me start after certain length. My hair care has been pretty much the same for all these 8 years, sometimes there are more oils, sometimes there are more shampoos, sometimes there are more conditioners, but overall principles I go by have been the same. My hair is great until it reaches a point between waist and hip, and then the nightmare begins. It might be just an issue of hair care, maybe my hair needs more than I already give it, maybe it needs something different, or maybe it's because I have a shorter terminal length. I really really don't want to have short terminal, so I'm willing to try absolutely anything to salvage my hair. I'm currently less than 2 inches away from BCL, I'll start maintaining when I reach it, so I'm looking for something to save my ends while I'm microtrimming the velcro away.

I seem to recall spidermom having trouble with Velcro-ey and splitting end when her hair got part a certain point. I don't think it has anything to do with true terminal length (only if it's causing hairs to break prematurely and creating a false terminal). I don't know why it happens though.

All the best with the ROO! :D

nycelle I've always just assumed it means the end are dry and grabby - not sticky to touch, but really hard to separate.

[nycelle]

I seem to recall spidermom having trouble with Velcro-ey and splitting end when her hair got part a certain point. I don't think it has anything to do with true terminal length (only if it's causing hairs to break prematurely and creating a false terminal). I don't know why it happens though.

All the best with the ROO! :D

nycelle I've always just assumed it means the end are dry and grabby - not sticky to touch, but really hard to separate.

Since velcro sticks to each other, to me it meant ends that are sticky/tacky. But I don't mean they're actually sticky feeling to the touch, more like the ends stick to each other

It means the same thing to all of us.. but I should of said stick to each other, instead of "sticky"

[Obsidian]

Obsidian, it might be. I've heard that everywhere in Russia the water is hard. But then could this be an issue that manifests itself after a certain length of hair? My hair is ok when it's shorter. Also I tried a shower filter last year, it did absolutely nothing for me.

I don't notice issues with hard water until my hair is shoulder length or longer. Maybe older hair is just more prone to build, idk. If you don't want to buy the shampoo, try crushing up 2-3 vit C tablets, mixing with 1/4 cup shampoo and apply to damp hair for 10-15 minutes. Rinse really well and shampoo again. That will break up any mineral deposits.

[Joules]

I don't notice issues with hard water until my hair is shoulder length or longer. Maybe older hair is just more prone to build, idk. If you don't want to buy the shampoo, try crushing up 2-3 vit C tablets, mixing with 1/4 cup shampoo and apply to damp hair for 10-15 minutes. Rinse really well and shampoo again. That will break up any mineral deposits.

Thanks a lot for the recipe! Does it matter which shampoo I use (sulfate or sulfate-free)?

[Obsidian]

I don't think it matters too much, I've used both but generally go with sulfates so it clarifies at the same time

[hennalove]

I'm especially curios to hear from longhairs with BCL+ length and similar hairtype to mine (2a-2b waves, fine to medium and very fragile hair). Do you find silicones essential in your hair care? Is it even possible to have extreme length and be cone-free?

I don't use silicones and never have but some report very good success with them so really whatever works for you while keeping your hair healthy is what you should do. I don't see why you can't have extremely long hair without using silicones but for some the silicones give more slip that prevent breakage. Prior to extensive henna, my hair was 2B/2C but velcro ends just seemed to be an occasional problem. My hair is now 1C/2A, every so often with henna but moreso if I use indigo and it's not every time, I get a bit of velcro ends. What I do is moisturize heavily and oil, do a S&D then oil again and put my hair in a bun. That seems to take care of any velcro problems for me. YMMV

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

We have similar hair types, I noticed that my hair gets build up pretty quickly.
I think I can use a silicone serum maybe 2 times before I need to clarify again.

It could be that your hair gets build up quickly and you need to use sulphates regularly.
Some people have that, sulphates arent evil, using them weekly or even with every wash, isnt going to hurt you.

I would clarify with a genuine shampoo - suave clarifying or neutrogena anti residue
Then deep treat of course, but dont go too heavy on the products.

That shampoo bar might not be clarifying enough, the LUSH shampoos are packed with them but theyre also really waxy.
I never had good experiences or any real results from using the LUSH hair care products.

[Soulina]

I have almost BCL length very fragile and extremely fine A1 hair. My ends used to be like Velcro and tangle easily. Part of it is ofc damage by dye (not bleach and I have been dye free now for 16 months) and part is that my hair is so fragile that mechanical damage is enough. I was stuck between waist and hip for years but the answer for me was protecting the ends. I comb my hair gently with wide tooth comb 2 times a day. At morning when I wake up and put it in a bun and evening when I open my bun. I oil the ends maybe 1-2 days a week. I wash my hair once a week maximum. Scalp wash if its a hot day, but length I wash only around 2-3 times a month. I sleep with a satin sleeping cap.

I dont use cones, and wash my hair with SLS only once a month.

I wear my hair down on a special days so maybe 10 days a year and in braid if I am really sick.

[Joules]

I don't use silicones and never have but some report very good success with them so really whatever works for you while keeping your hair healthy is what you should do. I don't see why you can't have extremely long hair without using silicones but for some the silicones give more slip that prevent breakage. Prior to extensive henna, my hair was 2B/2C but velcro ends just seemed to be an occasional problem. My hair is now 1C/2A, every so often with henna but moreso if I use indigo and it's not every time, I get a bit of velcro ends. What I do is moisturize heavily and oil, do a S&D then oil again and put my hair in a bun. That seems to take care of any velcro problems for me. YMMV

I henna my hair, but lately I've been doing only roots to prevent color build-up. I'm gonna do a henna gloss probably on Sunday, because I have some henna leftovers in my freezer since my last touch-up, hopefully it improves things. Moisturizing, oils and S&D are all parts of my regular routine.


We have similar hair types, I noticed that my hair gets build up pretty quickly.
I think I can use a silicone serum maybe 2 times before I need to clarify again.

It could be that your hair gets build up quickly and you need to use sulphates regularly.
Some people have that, sulphates arent evil, using them weekly or even with every wash, isnt going to hurt you.

I would clarify with a genuine shampoo - suave clarifying or neutrogena anti residue
Then deep treat of course, but dont go too heavy on the products.

That shampoo bar might not be clarifying enough, the LUSH shampoos are packed with them but theyre also really waxy.
I never had good experiences or any real results from using the LUSH hair care products.

My hair does always look and feel better after clarifying with the Lush shampoo though, so I'm not sure here, but I will be trying other sulfate shampoos just to compare things. I don't know if my hair gets build up quickly, at some point in my hair care journey I was exclusively co-washing for almost 2 years (no shampoo at all during that time, not even sulfate-free), my hair started to feel weird only after 18 months, but on the other hand it was in the very beginning of my journey and there was some damage in my hair. So yeah, there is only one way to find out.

I do like Lush products. I had bad experiences only with their conditioners, because they contain SLS for some reason I'll never be able to understand. I love their henna, I tried a few liquid shampoos before and liked them, the lemon cuticle butter is lovely, I've been using their R&B as a leave-in on my ends since December 2010. I genuinely don't think the shampoo bar has something to do with my velcro ends.


I have almost BCL length very fragile and extremely fine A1 hair. My ends used to be like Velcro and tangle easily. Part of it is ofc damage by dye (not bleach and I have been dye free now for 16 months) and part is that my hair is so fragile that mechanical damage is enough. I was stuck between waist and hip for years but the answer for me was protecting the ends. I comb my hair gently with wide tooth comb 2 times a day. At morning when I wake up and put it in a bun and evening when I open my bun. I oil the ends maybe 1-2 days a week. I wash my hair once a week maximum. Scalp wash if its a hot day, but length I wash only around 2-3 times a month. I sleep with a satin sleeping cap.

I dont use cones, and wash my hair with SLS only once a month.

I wear my hair down on a special days so maybe 10 days a year and in braid if I am really sick.

I already do pretty much all of it. I never dyed my hair with chemical dyes in my life, ever, I started to henna my hair last year and that's the only change of color I've ever experienced. I brush my hair only with Tangle Teezer (wide tooth comb isn't enough for me), I use gentle hair ties (Invisibobble), I never wrap my hair in a towel after washing. I wash my hair twice a week: once with shampoo and once with only conditioner. I oil my hair before shampooing religiously, and sometimes even before co-washing if my ends are being ridiculous. I try to wear protective hairstyles as much as I can (I can't wear buns all the time because of headaches, so I often wear braids, but my hair is never loose and I always look after it to not let it get stuck somewhere). I S&D regularly. I've been doing it for the past 8 years. The only protective method I haven't tried yet is satin pillowcases or sleep caps, mostly because they're extremely hard to find in Russia, and those I have found so far are too expensive for me at the moment.

[Soulina]

Wearing braids etc means always damage to the ends. But sleeping cap for me is must have, it really makes such a difference, I bought mine 3€ in ebay as we have none in sale in Finland either you can also use silk scarf if you cant find cap. My go to bun is braided nautilus held by one stick. I do not even own hair ties anymore. Tangle teezer was way too harsh for my hair, wide tooth comb made from horn is best thing ever for me.

For me most of damage from braid etc is just the length rubbing against your back, not it actually getting stuck somewhere (you can lessen this by choosing shirts made of satin and other slippery materials) . When I wore braids and slept without sleeping cap my ends were really dry, tangled easy even tho there was not that many split end my ends were damaged.

As I said, my hair is extremely fine, its nearly translucent, soft like puppy dogs coat and reacts poorly to any mechanical damage.

[Joules]

Soulina, I know braids aren't the best, but I don't have a choice. I get insane headaches if I wear buns for longer than 5 hours, and that's for the good spot, if I put my hair in a bun in the wrong place the headache will be almost instant. Plus I have had traction alopecia after wearing buns every day for an entire year in high school. It's just not worth it for me, if my velcro ends are really the result of not wearing buns every day, then I'm gonna have to have velcro ends. My side-braid is always in the front, I see exactly what it's rubbing against and try my best to protect it. I hate sleeping with braids though, so getting a satin pillowcase or a sleep cap is definitely essential for me.

[Soulina]

I think the sleeping cap or satin pillowcase would help you a lot and might be enough to stop the damage. When you sleep you cant watch out for your braid. Have you tried using scarfs as protective style? Like this one (https://shop.indiradeparis.com/modules/gifonproduct/getgif.php?p=2/2/0/4/2204&f=home_default), it would be a lot easier for the scalp than a bun.

[MusicalSpoons]

You may have found the culprit then Joules - my hair hates braids for the reasons Soulina gives. However sleeping on satin would greatly reduce damage, so if you are able to source something within your budget that would likely help.

Just throwing out ideas here, though you may already have tried / thought of this - is there any way of putting up your braid, such as pinning it round your head (not with bobby pins! something else - screw pins, or Amish pins), or a loose hairstick bun, which you could take down and/or reposition as frequently as you need and still have your hair contained in the original braid? Or even a bunned braid held with claw clips (I hear they're great for distributing weight)? I understand though that even if you want to try anything like that it might be out of budget for now though - like I said, just throwing ideas out :flower:

[Joules]

I'm getting the pillowcase as soon as I can. Maybe I'll try sleep caps or scarves, but I toss and turn in my sleep quite a lot, so I doubt they're gonna be effective.

MusicalSpoons, I don't think lack of buns is the only culprit here, I just refuse to believe it :D so I'm giving a shot to any hair care advice I was given in this thread.

Buns are a struggle for me in general. The pain starts when my hair reaches waist, I guess it becomes heavy enough to really tug at my scalp and cause strain. It doesn't matter if I'm wearing pins or sticks. Braided buns are even worse for some reason. Big claw clips seem to be the most gentle way to put my hair up (see the picture below), but again, if we're talking about an 8+ hour work day, it will be a major struggle. Plus it doesn't look very professional in my opinion, I need a barrette to tame baby hair with it. I do wear this updo whenever I can though. Don't mind the frizz, I was wearing lace rope braids around my hairline today.

https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32859&d=1532701382

[ReadingRenee]

I had the same problem with buns as well. Something that helped me was to put my hair up in more than one claw clip in a bun. Like 2 or maybe 4 around the perimeter. I have seen very long haired people use that to fasten their buns with no headache success, I guess because it distributes the pressure points and makes them less? I did get tired of headaches though and eventually cut it. I hope you can find a solution! Your hair is beautiful.

[Dark40]

When I use conditioners with silicones or cones in them my creams and oils do still penetrate well! My hair loves silicones and cones! I know that when I use products without them my hair always seems drier and rougher. It is not as shiny and smooth as it would be with the silicones and cones. Have you heard of a silicone product called, "SiliconeMix?" It really works my hair lots of wonders!!! I use it 2 or 3 times a month, and after having the silicones in my hair I wash them out by clarifying so that I don't have any product build-up.

[lapushka]

I'm getting the pillowcase as soon as I can. Maybe I'll try sleep caps or scarves, but I toss and turn in my sleep quite a lot, so I doubt they're gonna be effective.

MusicalSpoons, I don't think lack of buns is the only culprit here, I just refuse to believe it :D so I'm giving a shot to any hair care advice I was given in this thread.

Buns are a struggle for me in general. The pain starts when my hair reaches waist, I guess it becomes heavy enough to really tug at my scalp and cause strain. It doesn't matter if I'm wearing pins or sticks. Braided buns are even worse for some reason. Big claw clips seem to be the most gentle way to put my hair up (see the picture below), but again, if we're talking about an 8+ hour work day, it will be a major struggle. Plus it doesn't look very professional in my opinion, I need a barrette to tame baby hair with it. I do wear this updo whenever I can though. Don't mind the frizz, I was wearing lace rope braids around my hairline today.

https://forums.longhaircommunity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=32859&d=1532701382

At around hip log rolls in a claw clip started to hurt, so I tried a "regular" bun for the first time, with a fork and it lightened the strain on my head so much! If your hair becomes too long for a certain style, maybe it's time to change it up some? :flower:

[Joules]

I had the same problem with buns as well. Something that helped me was to put my hair up in more than one claw clip in a bun. Like 2 or maybe 4 around the perimeter. I have seen very long haired people use that to fasten their buns with no headache success, I guess because it distributes the pressure points and makes them less? I did get tired of headaches though and eventually cut it. I hope you can find a solution! Your hair is beautiful.

Thank you! I was thinking about 3 or 4 claw clips, but I can't logically see the difference between them and U-pins. Both distribute weight in different places, but still around the bun. I don't know, maybe I should try it just because I already have a successful experience with one big claw clip.


When I use conditioners with silicones or cones in them my creams and oils do still penetrate well! My hair loves silicones and cones! I know that when I use products without them my hair always seems drier and rougher. It is not as shiny and smooth as it would be with the silicones and cones. Have you heard of a silicone product called, "SiliconeMix?" It really works my hair lots of wonders!!! I use it 2 or 3 times a month, and after having the silicones in my hair I wash them out by clarifying so that I don't have any product build-up.

Thank you for your input! I've never heard about SiliconeMix, I don't think it's available here in Russia. I was thinking about trying regular drugstore stuff first, just to see how it goes.


At around hip log rolls in a claw clip started to hurt, so I tried a "regular" bun for the first time, with a fork and it lightened the strain on my head so much! If your hair becomes too long for a certain style, maybe it's time to change it up some? :flower:

I started trying to tweak things back in April, when I realised summer was coming up and I need my buns during heatwaves. Regular buns with U-pins had to move down a bit, because their usual positioning was starting to hurt after 30 minutes, and when it's very low on the back of my head I can go for up to 3 hours before getting any discomfort. Low buns with a French braid are out of the question, like I said for some reason they're even worse. Then I tried regular buns with sticks, instant headache, plus with sticks I can't put my buns very low or the stick starts to dig into my skin. I imagine forks would be similar :( I tried wrapping braids around my head, it looks really pretty, but I have to do it tightly in order to stop everything from sliding down, aaaand it took my scalp 2 hours to start a riot. I started wearing this roll with a claw clip out only when I couldn't think of any other option anymore, it used to be my chillin-at-home hairstyle only. It is by far the lightest of all updos for me. Maybe it has something to do with the shape of my clip? I assume differently shaped claw clips distribute weight differently.

Honestly, I'm not too upset with my uber sensitive scalp and subsequent lack of options for updos. I'll play with claw clips, maybe one day I'll master the crown braid and it will be the perfect hairstyle for me. I just need to find other ways to sort out this velcro problem.

Also, it occured to me that maybe I just don't belong in the no-trimming club :bluebiggr and this hot mess is how my hair protests it. But yeah, trim will be the last option for me. Only when everything else fails, including my patience.

[lapushka]

I started trying to tweak things back in April, when I realised summer was coming up and I need my buns during heatwaves. Regular buns with U-pins had to move down a bit, because their usual positioning was starting to hurt after 30 minutes, and when it's very low on the back of my head I can go for up to 3 hours before getting any discomfort. Low buns with a French braid are out of the question, like I said for some reason they're even worse. Then I tried regular buns with sticks, instant headache, plus with sticks I can't put my buns very low or the stick starts to dig into my skin. I imagine forks would be similar :( I tried wrapping braids around my head, it looks really pretty, but I have to do it tightly in order to stop everything from sliding down, aaaand it took my scalp 2 hours to start a riot. I started wearing this roll with a claw clip out only when I couldn't think of any other option anymore, it used to be my chillin-at-home hairstyle only. It is by far the lightest of all updos for me. Maybe it has something to do with the shape of my clip? I assume differently shaped claw clips distribute weight differently.

Honestly, I'm not too upset with my uber sensitive scalp and subsequent lack of options for updos. I'll play with claw clips, maybe one day I'll master the crown braid and it will be the perfect hairstyle for me. I just need to find other ways to sort out this velcro problem.

Also, it occured to me that maybe I just don't belong in the no-trimming club :bluebiggr and this hot mess is how my hair protests it. But yeah, trim will be the last option for me. Only when everything else fails, including my patience.

Don't just think a fork will be similar, try it out first. The thing that holds for me the best are 2-prong forks by Quattro or Ravenslair (she's out of service ATM)

Maybe you just need to find that "sweet spot" on your scalp. I can just wear it high up on the crown, not lower or that will bug me to no end. But I don't get headaches from buns. Yes, when I have my claw clips in on wash day, they "hurt" and can dig into the scalp. You don't have that with a fork; provided you don't do your buns too tight, of course!

[Joules]

Don't just think a fork will be similar, try it out first. The thing that holds for me the best are 2-prong forks by Quattro or Ravenslair (she's out of service ATM)

Maybe you just need to find that "sweet spot" on your scalp. I can just wear it high up on the crown, not lower or that will bug me to no end. But I don't get headaches from buns. Yes, when I have my claw clips in on wash day, they "hurt" and can dig into the scalp. You don't have that with a fork; provided you don't do your buns too tight, of course!

In my head forks don't seem to be much different than sticks. Both just hang on one spot, whereas a huge claw clip grabs hair from different places, if all that makes sense, English is not my first language :D I got a headache from sticks, I'm not too hopeful about forks.

I have found my sweet spot, and it's low on the back of my head. Not too low, so that it doesn't restrict my head movements, but low. Like this (https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/11/15/t-magazine/fashion/15tmag-bun-01/15tmag-bun-01-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale). I was wearing my bun really high during summer of 2016, I was growing out my bangs at the time and they were just long enough to be able to be incorporated into a high bun. My hair was between APL and BSL and I could tolerate it for about 6 hours. It was uncomfortable back then, it's straight up painful now.

I also can't stand buns on the very top of my head, like if we're talking the very top, like here (https://www.hairaisersshop.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/kim-kardashian-hairaisers-top-knot-bun.png) or here (https://lamodusa.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/top-knot-bun.jpg), because my hair hates being brushed against its natural growth direction. I tried going to sleep with a top knot once and next morning woke up mildly nauseous. I can't even switch up my parts whenever I want, I have to plan everything in advance and part my hair how I need to when it's soaking wet right after washing. Once it's dry, it's set, and if I try to just switch my part from middle to side or vice versa, I'll get a headache. Also, if I plan to brush all my hair back, I need to have a middle part, if I try to do it with a side part, I'll get a headache. When I say my scalp is sensitive, I mean my scalp is sensitive, I tried pretty much everything at this point.

[TreesOfEternity]

Sometimes between washes I have the worst Velcro ends, it happens a lot to me.
It’s summer where I live and my hair loses moisture faster so I use more products (leave in cream, coney spray and oils). First day after washing it’s very soft, but as I put oil every night it starts acting like Velcro. So I guess it’s a combination of dry hair, lint atracted by the oils and the actual oil buildup (and in my case some splits).
I don’t have a solution figured out yet, but preventing my hair from losing much moisture helps, for example making it damp and spraying a leave in conditioner on the 3rd day after wash. It makes build up worse though so eventually washing every 4 days and moisturizing really really well every single wash does the trick.

[nycelle]

I think fine hair needs lighter conditioners, and less oiling than normally done here. It's going to build up fast, and get the sticky ends feeling if you're oiling or using leave-ins every day or every other day.

[Joules]

Sometimes between washes I have the worst Velcro ends, it happens a lot to me.
It’s summer where I live and my hair loses moisture faster so I use more products (leave in cream, coney spray and oils). First day after washing it’s very soft, but as I put oil every night it starts acting like Velcro. So I guess it’s a combination of dry hair, lint atracted by the oils and the actual oil buildup (and in my case some splits).
I don’t have a solution figured out yet, but preventing my hair from losing much moisture helps, for example making it damp and spraying a leave in conditioner on the 3rd day after wash. It makes build up worse though so eventually washing every 4 days and moisturizing really really well every single wash does the trick.

I do find putting some leave-ins or oils into my hair on the 2nd and 3rd day helps a lot! It is annoying though, having to put something into your hair almost every day (and thus having somewhat greasy hair almost every day), but it is how it is.

[Joules]

I think fine hair needs lighter conditioners, and less oiling than normally done here. It's going to build up fast, and get the sticky ends feeling if you're oiling or using leave-ins every day or every other day.

Oils for me are the reason I even got that far. My hair gets destroyed by detergents in shampoos. I guess I just need to clarify a bit more often. And again, it never happened when my hair was shorter...

[nycelle]

Oils for me are the reason I even got that far. My hair gets destroyed by detergents in shampoos. I guess I just need to clarify a bit more often. And again, it never happened when my hair was shorter...

Just curious, how often do you oil your hair?

[Joules]

Just curious, how often do you oil your hair?

Before every shampoo wash, usually once a week. If my hair is really really bad and tangly on non-washing days, I'll lightly oil my ends to add some slip. Back in 2012-2013 I was shampooing my hair every other day, and so I had to heavily oil my hair every other day, that was a pain in the behind. Never had any buildup issues.

[lapushka]

In my head forks don't seem to be much different than sticks. Both just hang on one spot, whereas a huge claw clip grabs hair from different places, if all that makes sense, English is not my first language :D I got a headache from sticks, I'm not too hopeful about forks.

I have found my sweet spot, and it's low on the back of my head. Not too low, so that it doesn't restrict my head movements, but low. Like this (https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017/11/15/t-magazine/fashion/15tmag-bun-01/15tmag-bun-01-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale). I was wearing my bun really high during summer of 2016, I was growing out my bangs at the time and they were just long enough to be able to be incorporated into a high bun. My hair was between APL and BSL and I could tolerate it for about 6 hours. It was uncomfortable back then, it's straight up painful now.

I also can't stand buns on the very top of my head, like if we're talking the very top, like here (https://www.hairaisersshop.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/kim-kardashian-hairaisers-top-knot-bun.png) or here (https://lamodusa.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/top-knot-bun.jpg), because my hair hates being brushed against its natural growth direction. I tried going to sleep with a top knot once and next morning woke up mildly nauseous. I can't even switch up my parts whenever I want, I have to plan everything in advance and part my hair how I need to when it's soaking wet right after washing. Once it's dry, it's set, and if I try to just switch my part from middle to side or vice versa, I'll get a headache. Also, if I plan to brush all my hair back, I need to have a middle part, if I try to do it with a side part, I'll get a headache. When I say my scalp is sensitive, I mean my scalp is sensitive, I tried pretty much everything at this point.

It's so odd that you get physically sick (nauseated, headache) just from doing hairstyles. Is it really worth it then, to keep your hair long. That is a question I would ask myself. To me it would not be worth it, but I have health issues as is, and so I can't have anything "on top" of that. You may be able to still stand it and think it's worth the trouble (which is perfectly fine, not saying it isn't). :flower:

I find myself that sticks hold less well than a 2-prong fork does; but you'll have to find that out for yourself a bit, I'm afraid. Nothing is the same for all of us (thank goodness).

[MusicalSpoons]

About the claw clips, I was thinking of a few smaller ones distributed around the bun, as somebody mentioned upthread :) I know some members such as SarahLabyrinth, LigeiaNoire and JJJLongLocks regularly wear buns held by two large claw clips, one on either side. I'm impressed you can bun with a single claw clip though! It looks very elegant to me.

I'm sorry to hear your scalp is so sensitive, it really must make long hair a challenge. Though I suppose we all have our different circumstances that dictate how much of our hair's 'ideal' care we can do, but as protective styling seems to be so fundamental to keeping long hair in good condition it might feel more restrictive than other people's circumstances. Still, as long as you are doing the best that you can, in your own circumstances, to look after your hair, you can't do better than your best :flower:

I honestly think forks might still be worth a try - more prongs usually mean better weight distribution, and I personally find I can do looser buns with forks than sticks. I wouldn't describe my scalp as sensitive but I do often find the spot where stick meets head becomes tender; that doesn't happen with forks (unless I do the bun too tight, but in that case I would redo it straight away to prevent problems). However, as with anything, different things work for different people. And as you've had traction alopecia in the past from buns in the same spot all the time, I can understand not wanting to risk it again!

I hope you can work out something to help you reach your growing goals :flowers:

[Dark40]

Thank you! I was thinking about 3 or 4 claw clips, but I can't logically see the difference between them and U-pins. Both distribute weight in different places, but still around the bun. I don't know, maybe I should try it just because I already have a successful experience with one big claw clip.



Thank you for your input! I've never heard about SiliconeMix, I don't think it's available here in Russia. I was thinking about trying regular drugstore stuff first, just to see how it goes.



I started trying to tweak things back in April, when I realised summer was coming up and I need my buns during heatwaves. Regular buns with U-pins had to move down a bit, because their usual positioning was starting to hurt after 30 minutes, and when it's very low on the back of my head I can go for up to 3 hours before getting any discomfort. Low buns with a French braid are out of the question, like I said for some reason they're even worse. Then I tried regular buns with sticks, instant headache, plus with sticks I can't put my buns very low or the stick starts to dig into my skin. I imagine forks would be similar :( I tried wrapping braids around my head, it looks really pretty, but I have to do it tightly in order to stop everything from sliding down, aaaand it took my scalp 2 hours to start a riot. I started wearing this roll with a claw clip out only when I couldn't think of any other option anymore, it used to be my chillin-at-home hairstyle only. It is by far the lightest of all updos for me. Maybe it has something to do with the shape of my clip? I assume differently shaped claw clips distribute weight differently.

Honestly, I'm not too upset with my uber sensitive scalp and subsequent lack of options for updos. I'll play with claw clips, maybe one day I'll master the crown braid and it will be the perfect hairstyle for me. I just need to find other ways to sort out this velcro problem.

Also, it occured to me that maybe I just don't belong in the no-trimming club :bluebiggr and this hot mess is how my hair protests it. But yeah, trim will be the last option for me. Only when everything else fails, including my patience.

You're welcome for the input! Oh, ok. I didn't know that you live in Russia. SiliconeMix probably hasn't gotten there yet. It's here in some certain cities in the United States. Yeah, try the drugstore stuff first, and see how that works out.

[Joules]

lapushka, hair itself doesn't bother me that much right now, only if I put all the weight of it in one spot. I guess I'm just sensitive in general, even smells and sounds can make me physically uncomfortable. I've never seen it as a tragedy, so I'm fine :D I have my signature braids (and I'm learning new techniques!), I still can do this roll with a claw clip for a few hours, it's not like my hair is about to fall off and take my head with it :bluebiggr I know it might limit me in some way, but I'm not going too crazy with my goals, I think Classic would still be bearable for me.

MusicalSpoons, thank you for your kind words! I definitely plan to order a couple of pretty forks for special occasions. I absolutely love how they look and I still can tolerate buns for a few hours, but it's not a priority for me right now, it's just toys :) I already ordered smaller claw clips though :D we'll see how things go. Like I said, I'm not too upset about it, I can't beat myself up for something I can't physically do, it's just hair after all. I never wear my hair loose, it's always at least in a braid, so I'm already doing better than most people :)

Dark40, I spent an hour and a half in a store yesterday looking at all the sprays and creams, it's a whole new world for me :bluebiggr gonna try chelating and some other things first though, cones are something I'll use when nothing else works anymore.

[lapushka]

lapushka, hair itself doesn't bother me that much right now, only if I put all the weight of it in one spot. I guess I'm just sensitive in general, even smells and sounds can make me physically uncomfortable. I've never seen it as a tragedy, so I'm fine :D I have my signature braids (and I'm learning new techniques!), I still can do this roll with a claw clip for a few hours, it's not like my hair is about to fall off and take my head with it :bluebiggr I know it might limit me in some way, but I'm not going too crazy with my goals, I think Classic would still be bearable for me.

Oh that's great to hear! :flower: Haha LOL! I love your sense of humor. :lol:

Happy growing! :)

[LittleHealthy]

I think fine hair needs lighter conditioners, and less oiling than normally done here. It's going to build up fast, and get the sticky ends feeling if you're oiling or using leave-ins every day or every other day.

Totally agree with this. Applies to me. My ends were getting so boofy and I realised this was because I wasn’t moisturising enough while my hair was still wet after a wash. So I’d put something in my hair each morning to try and smooth and soften it, then just after a couple of days I was left with a horrid, even more rough feeling mess.

[Joules]

Oh that's great to hear! :flower: Haha LOL! I love your sense of humor. :lol:

Happy growing! :)

thank you :rolling:

[Joules]

Ok, guys, I think I partially solved the problem. I did a thorough 4 hour long S&D session yesterday, some of the splits I took out were so horrendous I don't think I've ever had such horrorshow on my head before. Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that I've been bathing my hair in sea water and drying it under direct sunlight for 10 days straight last month, nothing at all *sarcasm intensifies*. So, yeah. The velcro effect seems to be gone, just like my hemline.

I also did a henna gloss yesterday. My hair overall feels better, my ends are a lot less dry (but still somewhat dry). I read somewhere that henna is a chelating agent, so I'm 99% sure mineral buildup from hard water was one of my problems. When I do full-head henna applications my hair looks like I had a keratin treatment done in a salon.

Solution turned out to be quite simple :shrug:

[lapushka]

Ok, guys, I think I partially solved the problem. I did a thorough 4 hour long S&D session yesterday, some of the splits I took out were so horrendous I don't think I've ever had such horrorshow on my head before. Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that I've been bathing my hair in sea water and drying it under direct sunlight for 10 days straight last month, nothing at all *sarcasm intensifies*. So, yeah. The velcro effect seems to be gone, just like my hemline.

I also did a henna gloss yesterday. My hair overall feels better, my ends are a lot less dry (but still somewhat dry). I read somewhere that henna is a chelating agent, so I'm 99% sure mineral buildup from hard water was one of my problems. When I do full-head henna applications my hair looks like I had a keratin treatment done in a salon.

Solution turned out to be quite simple :shrug:

That's great to hear that you could find the culprit. It's lovely when you get to know your own hair's "inner workings" as it were. It took me about 5-10 years to get into a groove with my hair. But it is so totally worth it!

[Joules]

lapushka, it's great, indeed! I thought I knew my hair very well, now I feel like I'll never really know it unless I grow it out to terminal. Each new length milestone brings out new challenges, and I agree that it's worth solving!

[MusicalSpoons]

Ok, guys, I think I partially solved the problem. I did a thorough 4 hour long S&D session yesterday, some of the splits I took out were so horrendous I don't think I've ever had such horrorshow on my head before. Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that I've been bathing my hair in sea water and drying it under direct sunlight for 10 days straight last month, nothing at all *sarcasm intensifies*. So, yeah. The velcro effect seems to be gone, just like my hemline.

I also did a henna gloss yesterday. My hair overall feels better, my ends are a lot less dry (but still somewhat dry). I read somewhere that henna is a chelating agent, so I'm 99% sure mineral buildup from hard water was one of my problems. When I do full-head henna applications my hair looks like I had a keratin treatment done in a salon.

Solution turned out to be quite simple :shrug:

Woohoo! I'm glad something so simple turned out to be so effective! :D

[cathair]

Nevermind, I should have read up. Glad you fixed it :)

[Arciela]

Glad you fixed your issue! I was gonna say..I had velcro-y ends for years and years growing up and I never realized it was just from splits and mechanical damage over time when I thought I was taking care of my hair pretty well.

Happy Growing!!! :flower:

[Joules]

Thank you, guys :flower:

[Dark40]

Joules, I also enjoy doing that as well. I know, beauty stores can be overwhelming at times. Yeah, chelating is a great idea! I have to use cones or my hair would be in a big poofy or frizzy look. :D