Well, it finally happened to me.....

[StephanieB]

..... and this is how I dealt with it.

first: it has been suggested, and you'll about this read further in this thread, that I point out that my mother' abused me AND that her favorite method of 'punishing' me was to hack off my hair and to humiliate me publicly by doing that --- and thus the antagonism between us, which is clearly apparent in the convo

carry on


Conversation between Mother and myself this afternoon:


"Oh, not to change the subject, dear..... but..."

cough cough cough

"Are you all right, dear?"

"I j--"

"Well, anyway, not to change the topic to something less pleasant, honey... but you really need to cut your hair. Long hair looks ridiculous on a middle-aged woman. You're going to be 48 soon, y'know."

"No s___?"

"Ex-cuuuuuuse me?!"

"I'm only 47, Mother, you're the 73-yr-old. If either of us is likely to forget anything it's gonna be you, not me!"

"Age has no place in this discussion!"

"Ri-i-i-ight."

"As I was saying... and don't you dare interrupt me again, Stephanie Ellen... you need to cut--"

"S__ the f__ u_."

"What did you just say--"

"If you interrupt me once more, before I'm done, I will hang up. I mean it."

"Don't you dare hang--"

"I won't. IF you don't make me do it. Now, as I was saying before you so rudely interrupted me... You butchered my hair for nearly 2 decades, and I couldn't do a thing about it. I told you when I moved out, that if you ever laid a finger on my hair again, I would break your fingers right off you hands. I still will. I still mean that. DO NOT TEST ME!"

long silence

"Are you finished yet? I can speak, now?"

"Sure."

"Long hair looks ridiculous on older women... Well - not that you're exactly 'older', per se..... but you ARE approaching middle age... Actually, you already are middle-aged... and yoou really should cut your hair to a more appropriate length, That's all."

"Yup."

"What does that mean? That you'll cut your hair and wear it more appropriately?"

"Nope. Not a chance. It meant that I heard you. It was merely acknowledgement that I'd heard you. You said it; I heard it. Ya done now?"

"But you're not gong to cut it, are you?"

"Nope."

"Maybe you don't understand--"

"Please let me remind you: 'In my house, you live by my rules; When you own your own house, you can do as you please.' I'm 47 years old, Mother, and I've been married for 17 years, and I've lived outside of your domain and rules for..... --"

"Don't you use your father's words against me, young lady! I will tell you when--"

" 'Bye."

click

I hung up my phone.

It rang, I anwered.

"Did you hang up on me?! Or did your call just get dropped?"

"Nothing's wrong with the cell coverage where we're driving, Mother. I hung up on you. I answered it, knowing it was you, because it's got Caller ID... I thought I'd be nice and give you another chance at appropriate conversation with your middle-aged adult daughter."

"What is wrong with..... Why can't you understand that..... Do you know a single person who is your age or older, who has hair your length or longer?"

"Nope. Not a one. But since when have I ever cared what other people wore? I still don't care about fashion. I'm keeping my hair, and that's that. Change the subject. Now. Or I'll hang up on you again... and if I do - I won't answer any of your calls for a few days."


Why must I have to fight that much over my hair?!

It's MINE, isn't it??

[Elphie]

I rather liked the part where she referred to you as "young lady" while reminding you that your hair isn't appropriate for someone approaching middle age.

You don't have to fight over your hair, and you didn't! You have a beautiful way of setting your boundries and when she didn't respect them you ended the conversation. I think you did a great job.

[Eboshi]

Did you really speak to your own mother like THAT ?

[Kleis]

A little on the hostile side, maybe? Whatever happened to, "Nope, not cutting," and moving on?

[Lamb]

Of course, without knowing what you and your mom find acceptable conversation style, I can't tell how she took what you told her - but let me tell you, if I ever used this language to my mom, I would forfeit the right of ever calling myself an adult again. :twocents:
Srsly. That was more like a tantrum than a conversation, really. Good job you were sitting in a car and couldn't stamp your feet. And over HAIR, of all subjects??

I know moms can be annoying, but she is, as you said, 73. How much longer is she gonna stick around? Old people can be even more annoying without meaning to be. Just try to take her stuff with 1-2 pinches of salt, and don't get your dander up about her remarks. It's not like she is actually taking the scissors to your hair, she just had a suggestion, that's all.

ETA: I posted this before the OP added the red part to her post. I did not know about her family history- no offence intended.

[Mebo]

Good for you. You set the boundary, and you stuck to it. I'm proud of you.

By the way, you DO know some women older than you who have hair longer than yours. I'll be 55 in the morning, and mine is tailbone. I'm not cutting either.

[truepeacenik]

wow. She's looking for support dealing with a family member. Maybe such communication is typical in her family.
Granted, if I told my mom STFU, I'd probably get hit by lightning, or karma.
Now, we have been arguing politics for months, and I have called her out on racism, outright density and illogic.
She calls me a commie, it all works out. :)

and happy birthday, Mebo!!

(40 and classic, so 50 and ankle??)

[PseudoScot]

Of course, without knowing what you and your mom find acceptable conversation style, I can't tell how she took what you told her - but let me tell you, if I ever used this language to my mom, I would forfeit the right of ever calling myself an adult again. :twocents:
Srsly. That was more like a tantrum than a conversation, really. Good job you were sitting in a car and couldn't stamp your feet. And over HAIR, of all subjects??

I know moms can be annoying, but she is, as you said, 73. How much longer is she gonna stick around? Old people can be even more annoying without meaning to be. Just try to take her stuff with 1-2 pinches of salt, and don't get your dander up about her remarks. It's not like she is actually taking the scissors to your hair, she just had a suggestion, that's all.

Lamb, I'm quoting you because I agree 1000%

You jumped down your mom's throat and totally put her on the defensive. The best way to win her over is to be calm and collected. Of course, I don't know your mom dynamics but in general, people are far more willing to see your point of view when you use logic, examples, politeness and kindness. :twocents:

[Kleis]

wow. She's looking for support dealing with a family member.

Well, that's the problem with these darn open forums. You can post for support or approval, but you may not get it. :shrug: Oh, I support her completely in not cutting her hair and standing up for herself, and I'm seriously hoping this is just their dynamic. I have hair down to my thighs and I'd cut it off at my ears before I'd ever talk to my mom like that. But then, I really, really like and respect my mom. :twocents:

Of course, she returns that and would never suggest I do a darn thing to my hair. However, when my two aunts were giving me grief this summer, my response was to wear it down 100% around them, just to be in their face. With a smile, of course.

[rileysmama32208]

Im glad you set boundaries there, good for you!

As for the language, while I wouldnt speak to my mther that way, I let my mother walk all over me. Why should you be respectful when shes completely disrespectful of you? Also, Imsure theres more to the family unit there than the rest of us know... it could be completely normal for you an your mother to engage in that sort of banter ;)

[LisaButz2001]

I don't have parents, so I'll file this away for future in-laws. Personally, I don't think we can catagorize this as hostile w/out a prior history of the relationship, after all, there might have been 50 non-expletive laced discussions about this topic before Stephanie B. snapped. I also don't think it is a tantrum. The mere fact that they are both over 18 means that the language is not an issue; adults invented these words; they'll never cease being part of the English language.....now if Stephanie B. were 9, I would be more concerned; expectations among adult VS adult are different than adult VS child. Saying, "she's 83; how much longer can she be around?" misses the point entirely; nobody at any age should be demoralizing Stephanie B.'s choices, old age isn't a license to say and do anything you want and stomp on the other person's feelings or rights.

[Bene]

good for you. it's YOUR hair, not hers. you don't need to answer for it.


i'm just glad i'm not the only one who's threatened to break their mom's fingers :D

[Sonya Campbell]

I'm soooo glad my Mom wants to grow her hair out too!! I need to tell her about this web site!

[Kleis]

...now if Stephanie B. were 9, I would be more concerned; expectations among adult VS adult are different than adult VS child.

:lol: I'm just the opposite. If this came out of a 9 yo's mouth, instead of a woman in her 40s, I'd be unsurprised.

Still, yes, for all we know, they threaten each other with bodily harm on a daily basis. Whatever floats your boat.

[Carolyn]

I'm going to assume that the OP was totally frustrated with listening to her mom's opinions on her hair and she finally snapped. I'm guessing it wasn't the first hair conversation between the two of them. If her mom butchered her hair for the first 20 years of her life then there is a ton of hair baggage between the two of them. She needed to get her point across. People can just lose patience and snap. I'm also going to assume that being nice and polite and gently ignoring her mom's comments wasn't working anymore. Some people talk to each other that way. My son and I do. She wasn't asking for opinions on her mother/daughter relationship. I took it that she was expressing her frustration in dealing with things her mother said to her. In reading the text of the conversation it sounded like she tried to gently tell her mother she wasn't going to cut her hair but her mom kept at it and kept at it. The mom wasn't going to let the subject go. We don't know her family dynamics. We don't know that they don't talk to each other like that all the time. For all we know her mom taught her to cuss like that :p No it's not respectful to tell a parent to STFU but in this case I might think it was an appropriate response.

[neon-dream]

Whoah, it's not like your hairs really long either!!
My step mam thinks I should cut my hair because i'm not 6 years old any more and I need to grow up and cut it off.
I don't think having long hair is childish at all, and it looks good on pretty much everyone.
Yes, it is your hair. and no one should be able to tell you what to do with it! So well done :)
xxx

[embee]

Boundary definition is vital.

I would be distressed if my DD spoke to me like that (although she learned those words at her mother's knee) and she is a grownup. On the other hand, I would not give her grief over her hair. I know DD has cut her hair and it was *so* beautiful when it was long :( but it is her hair and her life and her DH likes how she is.

In fact, I'm doing my best to butt out of my kids' lives. It's making everything much easier all 'round, too. :) If they *ask* I will answer, but otherwise I'm trying (not always successfully) to keep my mouth shut unless I have something nice to say.

That comes hard to a bossy old lady....

[StephanieB]

The dynamics of the conversation are usual for my severely dysfunctional family.

I guess maybe I ought to have reminded people of that ahead of time.
Sorry 'bout that.

I grew up severely abused by both parents - so there's zero trust of them, on my part.

Maybe it would shed a bit of light on things if you read (in my blog) what she did to my hair when I was growing up.

[rileysmama32208]

The dynamics of the conversation are usual for my severely dysfunctional family.

I guess maybe I ought to have reminded people of that ahead of time.
Sorry 'bout that.

I grew up severely abused by both parents - so there's zero trust of them, on my part.

Maybe it would shed a bit of light on things if you read (in my blog) what she did to my hair when I was growing up.

I got the impression that your hair was cut without your permission for the first 20 years of your life. (sorry i can't read blogs yet, still trying to uphat post count!) I hope you've been able to come to terms with these things and good for you for standing up r yourself!

[DecafJane]

The dynamics of the conversation are usual for my severely dysfunctional family.
I guess maybe I ought to have reminded people of that ahead of time.
Sorry 'bout that.
I grew up severely abused by both parents - so there's zero trust of them, on my part.
Maybe it would shed a bit of light on things if you read (in my blog) what she did to my hair when I was growing up.

I figured that things were a little different based on her reactions to your harsh language. I am proud of you for standing up for yourself, and setting the boundaries. For what it is worth, it doesn't sound as if subtler language would make an impact.
I wouldn't talk to my mother like this, but obviously my mother and I have a very different relationship to you and your mother, and everybody is different. My mother would never talk to me the way your mother did to you, and so I can't judge and I don't know how I would react if I had been through what you have. I'm glad that you are still talking to her, and letting her know how you feel.
Besides, sometimes it feels good to let off steam and stand up for yourself, doesn't it?

[Morag]

Lamb, I'm quoting you because I agree 1000%

You jumped down your mom's throat and totally put her on the defensive. The best way to win her over is to be calm and collected. Of course, I don't know your mom dynamics but in general, people are far more willing to see your point of view when you use logic, examples, politeness and kindness. :twocents:

And here's my :twocents::

Some people's moms are reasonable and respond well to calm and collected, but some never learn to treat their children with the respect they deserve as adults, no matter how rationally the "child" presents his/her opinions.

I think she did a great job of setting and holding her own boundaries.

[StephanieB]

Maybe someone could explain to me what my mother's age has to do with it being okay for her to continue to abuse me?
(she's 73 - how much longer will she be here?)

Her abuse was okay in the 1960s (kids just didn't have anywhere to go for help, back then, and it was still a time when police didn't intervene in family matters).

Her abuse was okay in the 1970s (no one stopped parents from raising their kids however they saw fit).

Her abuse was still okay in the 1980s, too. It must have been, since it still occurred routinely.

When I left Philadelphia in 1989, I left that all behind me. I left my family, my friends, a good job - all. I just picked up and left one Friday and never returned. I found people who were willing to ake me in and let me live in their loft until I got a job and got myself on my own two feet. It took me just one interview to land a job at St Vincent's Hospital in Greenwich Village. Radiologic technologists in the late 80s were hard to come by and I was trained at Hahnemann University Hospital in Philly. No problem getting work, not comming from Hahnemann. I never regretted such a dramatic upheaval, either. I met my husband in 1990.

[Indigosails]

I have broken the cardinal rule of not reading the entire thread before answering.

Big hugs to you! I hate to hear that my hair needs to be cut because of my age. It is not true and it is rude for someone to say that. A parent saying that does not make it right. I hope your mom learns to accept that your hair is your business, not hers. I just have to hug you again---years of bad hair cuts from a parent is wrong.

Be gentle with your self.

[PseudoScot]

Maybe someone could explain to me what my mother's age has to do with it being okay for her to continue to abuse me?
(she's 73 - how much longer will she be here?)

Her abuse was okay in the 1960s (kids just didn't have anywhere to go for help, back then, and it was still a time when police didn't intervene in family matters).

Her abuse was okay in the 1970s (no one stopped parents from raising their kids however they saw fit).

Her abuse was still okay in the 1980s, too. It must have been, since it still occurred routinely.

When I left Philadelphia in 1989, I left that all behind me. I left my family, my friends, a good job - all. I just picked up and left one Friday and never returned. I found people who were willing to ake me in and let me live in their loft until I got a job and got myself on my own two feet. It took me just one interview to land a job at St Vincent's Hospital in Greenwich Village. Radiologic technologists in the late 80s were hard to come by and I was trained at Hahnemann University Hospital in Philly. No problem getting work, not comming from Hahnemann. I never regretted such a dramatic upheaval, either. I met my husband in 1990.

I do understand what you are saying, and sympathize that things were really horrible, I am sorry you experienced that. Perhaps my words seemed harsh, but I guess I am of the approach that it is better to try diplomacy and calm first.

My last comment [and I will butt out] is this - you've explained that the horrible experiences in the past have shaped not only you, and your relationship with your parents, but also your perception of your hair. I would suggest at this point ignoring your mom - she no longer has a say in who you are, or what you do with yourself. Don't let her get to you and undermine you, don't give her that power. Perhaps this is a more deeply seated issue than just hair. I don't say that to be unkind, I am just a stranger trying to offer some advice and perspective. :) Stick to your true self and what you want.

[lora410]

wow you hair is only 20inches and your mother is griping on you about cutting already? I am so glad I have a mother who would be mad if i cut. She is a long hair lover. good for you for standing up to your mom

[StephanieB]

I'm going to assume that the OP was totally frustrated with listening to her mom's opinions on her hair and she finally snapped. I'm guessing it wasn't the first hair conversation between the two of them. If her mom butchered her hair for the first 20 years of her life then there is a ton of hair baggage between the two of them. She needed to get her point across. People can just lose patience and snap. I'm also going to assume that being nice and polite and gently ignoring her mom's comments wasn't working anymore. Some people talk to each other that way. My son and I do. She wasn't asking for opinions on her mother/daughter relationship. I took it that she was expressing her frustration in dealing with things her mother said to her. In reading the text of the conversation it sounded like she tried to gently tell her mother she wasn't going to cut her hair but her mom kept at it and kept at it. The mom wasn't going to let the subject go. We don't know her family dynamics. We don't know that they don't talk to each other like that all the time. For all we know her mom taught her to cuss like that :p No it's not respectful to tell a parent to STFU but in this case I might think it was an appropriate response.

Not picking on you, Carolyn. Your post just summed up what most folks are saying so I chose it as succint towards that end. :)


I didn't intend to ask about how I spoke to my mother. That's not up for discussion in my mind. (meaning nothing anyone is going to say will change that)

It actually never occurred to me that that was going to become the discussion. lol

I forget how seriously dysfunctional my family are, and how that comes across to normal people like LHCers. lol


Fast facts:

1) I grew up seriously abused by both parents. My father and I came to terms and have moved on to a more normal relationship years ago. My mother, OTOH has only become worse with age and time. She not only can't bring herself to want to come to any knid of terms... she has abused my father for years, just for having reached terms with me. I can't help a man who won't help himself or accept help. Hubby & I have made it palin to him that he is always welcome in our home - to visit or to stay. No questions asked. We will drop whatever we are doing to come get him and move him in, and make the immediate changes necessary to accomodate his living with us. He has no interest in leaving my mother, and that's his choice. The fact that I would be willing to do all of the above outlined for a man who regularly beat me severely enough to break bones and hospitalize me several times a year for 17 years, says all that needs to be said. I forgive those who are pentient, just as I hope I am forgiven when I am penitent.

2) Mother's favorite way to punish me (earned or not, most punishments were not earned) was - when I was younger and she didn't fear that I'd fight back - to grab my hair in one hand and drag me to the kitchen, take her shears and hack my hair off unevenly and roughly. She made sure it looked awful. Teachers were regularly horrified by my presence in their classroom, between my bad bruises and my hacked hair. (I have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, am slow to clot, and burise spectacularly badly.) Principals reglualry had to get teachers to teach me privately in a spare classroom not in use because some of my teachers refused to have me in their classroom - they said they couldn't bear to look at me, and my horrifying appearance disrupted the other kids too. So much for the Philadelphia Public School system in the 1960s & 1970s. When I was old enough to potentially strike back - Mother waited 'till I was asleep and Dad was asleep... and she'd hack off my hair in the middle of the night, leaving it on my pillow for me to wake up and discover. She's such a sweet woman. No matter how much my father screamed at her, it never mattered. He never raised a hand to her - only to my and to my kid sister. His explanation, about 15 years ago, to me was that he had to lie down and go to sleep next to her each night. I guess I can see it from his point of view. Her mother (my maternal grandmother) was locked away in an Illinois State hospital when Mother was 13... so it's not like it would be difficult to believe that she might stab him or something. When, on a few occasion s, a friend's mother, or a teacher, would take pity on me, and try to fix up my hair or take me to a hairdresser - my mother would go ballistic and either threaten their well-being and/or sue them. By the time I was 10 yrs old, most of the family court judges in Philadlephia knew me personally -- but that was 1970-'71 and a very different era.

3) While my language is, I admit it, quite vulgar at times -- that's got nothing to do with things. My mother has, to the best of my knowledge, never said a single curse word. Not even "damn". Not even "darn", come to think of it... My father curses occasionally - but nothing out of character for an average accountant. I still have no idea where I picked up my colorful language; I really don't. No one around me ever used bad language, and certainly nothing like my vulgar verbage!



Now, having a better grasp of the relationship between my mother and I, you can take or leave what I told her today, or how I said it..... but the point I intended to make when I first posted this thread was that - much like so many others here at LHC - my mother finally just told me, too, that my hair was too long for my age. That was it. *shrug*

I'm truly sorry that I caused all this commotion. It was, as I said, totally unintended. And I do apologize to whomever was offended. :) Peace.

[DecafJane]

You are clearly a very strong woman, and I am glad you are still doing what you want to do with your hair. :)

[StephanieB]

Perhaps this is a more deeply seated issue than just hair. I don't say that to be unkind, I am just a stranger trying to offer some advice and perspective. :) Stick to your true self and what you want.

A more deep-seated issue for Mother? Or for me??


I KNOW that it's an emotional thing for ME.

I don't grow my hair coz I want long hair; I grow my hair coz I wanted long hair for the first 2/3 of my life.

I can't hop into a time machine and go back to the past. But, I CAN create whatever future I want for myself.

My guess is that if long hair continues to be as much of a PitA as it is now... or worse, and if it actually gets harder to take good care of... it's highly likely that, sometime after my mother is dead, I will probably cut it and donate it.
But I won't give her the satisfaction of seeing me ever cut my hair again.

Nor will I abuse my own hair - it's part of me, my body. As such, I'll take care of it as best as I can, keep it in good health, and make sure that it is/remains a nice gift to whomever will ultimately receive it when I donate it. If God gives me custody of beautiful hair - it's incumbent upon me to maintain the gift nicely as best as I can; that's just good stewardship.

It's just a control issue.
I control my hair, now, not my mother.
I control my body AND my life, now; she doesn't.
She can't control me any more, and I want her to never forget that fact. And that fact aggravates her more than anything else in her old age.

My husband doesn't even care about hair one way or the other.
He says that he's bald, he started balding since his late 20s, and he doesn't care aobut his lack of hair or anybody else's hair or lack of hair.
He keeps quiet enough about my hair so that I don't even know if he likes it, dislikes it, or even if he notices it ever.

Hubby will comb it for me, help me detangle it if I ask, and give me whatever he wants me to think is his opinion on it when I ask. He'll keep quiet about the zillions of hair toys that I own, and whatever I spend on my hair or hair toys. He won't mention my hair if I don't bring the subject up first. When I went redhead - he said nothing about it, other than to note that it was suddenly red. When I went bottle blond, the same. Ditto when I got my poodle perms. When my haiardresser chemcially burned my scalp and burnt my hair off - he said nothing but how sorry he was that I was suffering... and he got for me the best legal representation in NJ, and paid for it all with no complaint. He visited me in the hopsital all the time, and he was supportive to me throughout the whole ordeal.

But when this 'discussion' today got loud, hubby pulled over to the side of the road, and told me quietly to just hang up on my mother. He waited 'till I did so before he drove off.

Don't mistake me -- I love putting my hair up in updos, and I love using all of my hair bling. But I also loved it when I had a very very short razored layered boy cut too. I loved my hair at almost every stage of it's ridiculous existance other than before I was 18 years old.

[smilinjenn71]

Considering your penchant for colorful language, while your parents don't seem to do so indicates a lot of anger, towards them and perhaps life in general. The reason I say that is about the only time I start letting words fly is when I get ticked off.

While I didn't have an abusive childhood... just try to let my parents TELL me what I should do. MAN, that just gets my hackles up! Bottom line is all parents need to respect that at some point their children need to make their own decisions, whether it's the best decision or not. My hubby and I have discussed this fully. Our intent is to be friends with our children once our "job" is done. Yes we'll always be their parents but how cool will it be to be their friend later?!?!?! For them to come hang out with us and tell us about what's going on in their lives....knowing we aren't going to judge them or try to make them do what WE want them to do. We don't wish their childhoods away but we do look forward to those times.

Perhaps you could write your Mom a note, expressing how this isn't really a topic up for discussion and you would appreciate if she can't support your choices, to remain silent.


Not picking on you, Carolyn. Your post just summed up what most folks are saying so I chose it as succint towards that end. :)


I didn't intend to ask about how I spoke to my mother. That's not up for discussion in my mind. (meaning nothing anyone is going to say will change that)

It actually never occurred to me that that was going to become the discussion. lol

I forget how seriously dysfunctional my family are, and how that comes across to normal people like LHCers. lol


Fast facts:

1) I grew up seriously abused by both parents. My father and I came to terms and have moved on to a more normal relationship years ago. My mother, OTOH has only become worse with age and time. She not only can't bring herself to want to come to any knid of terms... she has abused my father for years, just for having reached terms with me. I can't help a man who won't help himself or accept help. Hubby & I have made it palin to him that he is always welcome in our home - to visit or to stay. No questions asked. We will drop whatever we are doing to come get him and move him in, and make the immediate changes necessary to accomodate his living with us. He has no interest in leaving my mother, and that's his choice. The fact that I would be willing to do all of the above outlined for a man who regularly beat me severely enough to break bones and hospitalize me several times a year for 17 years, says all that needs to be said. I forgive those who are pentient, just as I hope I am forgiven when I am penitent.

2) Mother's favorite way to punish me (earned or not, most punishments were not earned) was - when I was younger and she didn't fear that I'd fight back - to grab my hair in one hand and drag me to the kitchen, take her shears and hack my hair off unevenly and roughly. She made sure it looked awful. Teachers were regularly horrified by my presence in their classroom, between my bad bruises and my hacked hair. (I have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, am slow to clot, and burise spectacularly badly.) Principals reglualry had to get teachers to teach me privately in a spare classroom not in use because some of my teachers refused to have me in their classroom - they said they couldn't bear to look at me, and my horrifying appearance disrupted the other kids too. So much for the Philadelphia Public School system in the 1960s & 1970s. When I was old enough to potentially strike back - Mother waited 'till I was asleep and Dad was asleep... and she'd hack off my hair in the middle of the night, leaving it on my pillow for me to wake up and discover. She's such a sweet woman. No matter how much my father screamed at her, it never mattered. He never raised a hand to her - only to my and to my kid sister. His explanation, about 15 years ago, to me was that he had to lie down and go to sleep next to her each night. I guess I can see it from his point of view. Her mother (my maternal grandmother) was locked away in an Illinois State hospital when Mother was 13... so it's not like it would be difficult to believe that she might stab him or something. When, on a few occasion s, a friend's mother, or a teacher, would take pity on me, and try to fix up my hair or take me to a hairdresser - my mother would go ballistic and either threaten their well-being and/or sue them. By the time I was 10 yrs old, most of the family court judges in Philadlephia knew me personally -- but that was 1970-'71 and a very different era.

3) While my language is, I admit it, quite vulgar at times -- that's got nothing to do with things. My mother has, to the best of my knowledge, never said a single curse word. Not even "damn". Not even "darn", come to think of it... My father curses occasionally - but nothing out of character for an average accountant. I still have no idea where I picked up my colorful language; I really don't. No one around me ever used bad language, and certainly nothing like my vulgar verbage!



Now, having a better grasp of the relationship between my mother and I, you can take or leave what I told her today, or how I said it..... but the point I intended to make when I first posted this thread was that - much like so many others here at LHC - my mother finally just told me, too, that my hair was too long for my age. That was it. *shrug*

I'm truly sorry that I caused all this commotion. It was, as I said, totally unintended. And I do apologize to whomever was offended. :) Peace.

[StephanieB]

You are clearly a very strong woman, and I am glad you are still doing what you want to do with your hair. :)
ROTFLMAO

I misread your post, at first, DecafJane. :rollin:

OMG!! lol

I first read: You are a very strange woman..... :rollin:

And I suppose I am, at that, too.

Well, that has got to be the funniest laugh of the past few days, for me!!

Jane - thank you for BOTH the support AND the unintended funny! :D

What a riot that was... LMAO

[DecafJane]

ROFL!
You are welcome to be a very strange woman, too, if you want - there is nothing wrong with that, in fact it could be a lot of fun. ;) However, chances of me ever typing that on an on-line forum are rather low.
That is so funny!!!

[intothemist1999]

I back you up on this.

No, I admit I couldn't talk to my mom like that (I'm just a closet cusser, but I'm very good at it :D), nor would she have spoken to me like that. It's not my place to judge your parent/child dynamic. Actually it's just an interaction between two ADULTS.

Besides WHOEVER she is...it would be very hard to remain civil for someone who keeps pushing like that!!

[StephanieB]

Considering your penchant for colorful language, while your parents don't seem to do so indicates a lot of anger, towards them and perhaps life in general. The reason I say that is about the only time I start letting words fly is when I get ticked off.

While I didn't have an abusive childhood... just try to let my parents TELL me what I should do. MAN, that just gets my hackles up! Bottom line is all parents need to respect that at some point their children need to make their own decisions, whether it's the best decision or not. My hubby and I have discussed this fully. Our intent is to be friends with our children once our "job" is done. Yes we'll always be their parents but how cool will it be to be their friend later?!?!?! For them to come hang out with us and tell us about what's going on in their lives....knowing we aren't going to judge them or try to make them do what WE want them to do. We don't wish their childhoods away but we do look forward to those times.

Perhaps you could write your Mom a note, expressing how this isn't really a topic up for discussion and you would appreciate if she can't support your choices, to remain silent.

That's interesting, Jenn..... :ponder:

No one knows where I got my penchant for really foul language. My parents said I just kinda came out with it, when I was about 13 years old. They never did figure out when I learned it, or what caused me to begin to use it. But none of my friends used that kind of language, nor did their parents. I simply don't appear to have been exposed to it. yet - I knew all the words, one day, just like that *poof*, and started to use them.

Funny thing is, I use it whether or not I'm angry. It's just part of my vocabulary..... Yet I also have no trouble refraining from using fould language when it's a good time/place. Like at church, hubby's job sites, etc. I can flip the cussword switch on and off, at will, it seems. Yet I can't just not ever use it. Go figure...

If my mother is around, it's a pretty sure bet, though, that I'll use really foul language -- even if my priest, or other older family members whom I respect, are also present. My priest AND other clergy AND my bishops (present, and the past 3 before him) have heard me use really vulgar language. But rarely has it ever actually bothered anyone.

Now, my 90-yr-old next-door neighbor... OMG!! Is her mouth foul!! Her language sometimes embarrassess ME, for goodnes sake! :eek:

[Celebrian]

Not picking on you, Carolyn. Your post just summed up what most folks are saying so I chose it as succint towards that end. :)


I didn't intend to ask about how I spoke to my mother. That's not up for discussion in my mind. (meaning nothing anyone is going to say will change that)

It actually never occurred to me that that was going to become the discussion. lol

I forget how seriously dysfunctional my family are, and how that comes across to normal people like LHCers. lol


Fast facts:

1) I grew up seriously abused by both parents. My father and I came to terms and have moved on to a more normal relationship years ago. My mother, OTOH has only become worse with age and time. She not only can't bring herself to want to come to any knid of terms... she has abused my father for years, just for having reached terms with me. I can't help a man who won't help himself or accept help. Hubby & I have made it palin to him that he is always welcome in our home - to visit or to stay. No questions asked. We will drop whatever we are doing to come get him and move him in, and make the immediate changes necessary to accomodate his living with us. He has no interest in leaving my mother, and that's his choice. The fact that I would be willing to do all of the above outlined for a man who regularly beat me severely enough to break bones and hospitalize me several times a year for 17 years, says all that needs to be said. I forgive those who are pentient, just as I hope I am forgiven when I am penitent.

2) Mother's favorite way to punish me (earned or not, most punishments were not earned) was - when I was younger and she didn't fear that I'd fight back - to grab my hair in one hand and drag me to the kitchen, take her shears and hack my hair off unevenly and roughly. She made sure it looked awful. Teachers were regularly horrified by my presence in their classroom, between my bad bruises and my hacked hair. (I have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, am slow to clot, and burise spectacularly badly.) Principals reglualry had to get teachers to teach me privately in a spare classroom not in use because some of my teachers refused to have me in their classroom - they said they couldn't bear to look at me, and my horrifying appearance disrupted the other kids too. So much for the Philadelphia Public School system in the 1960s & 1970s. When I was old enough to potentially strike back - Mother waited 'till I was asleep and Dad was asleep... and she'd hack off my hair in the middle of the night, leaving it on my pillow for me to wake up and discover. She's such a sweet woman. No matter how much my father screamed at her, it never mattered. He never raised a hand to her - only to my and to my kid sister. His explanation, about 15 years ago, to me was that he had to lie down and go to sleep next to her each night. I guess I can see it from his point of view. Her mother (my maternal grandmother) was locked away in an Illinois State hospital when Mother was 13... so it's not like it would be difficult to believe that she might stab him or something. When, on a few occasion s, a friend's mother, or a teacher, would take pity on me, and try to fix up my hair or take me to a hairdresser - my mother would go ballistic and either threaten their well-being and/or sue them. By the time I was 10 yrs old, most of the family court judges in Philadlephia knew me personally -- but that was 1970-'71 and a very different era.

3) While my language is, I admit it, quite vulgar at times -- that's got nothing to do with things. My mother has, to the best of my knowledge, never said a single curse word. Not even "damn". Not even "darn", come to think of it... My father curses occasionally - but nothing out of character for an average accountant. I still have no idea where I picked up my colorful language; I really don't. No one around me ever used bad language, and certainly nothing like my vulgar verbage!



Now, having a better grasp of the relationship between my mother and I, you can take or leave what I told her today, or how I said it..... but the point I intended to make when I first posted this thread was that - much like so many others here at LHC - my mother finally just told me, too, that my hair was too long for my age. That was it. *shrug*

I'm truly sorry that I caused all this commotion. It was, as I said, totally unintended. And I do apologize to whomever was offended. :) Peace.

Thankyou for the explanation about your background. It helped me to see more clearly where you were coming from in your first post. I am so very sorry for what you have had to go through with your parents.

My relationship with my own mother was a little on the 'cool' side - but I was fortunate in that overt abuse didn't enter into it.

Thankyou also for the apology, which only raised you further in my estimation.

I wish you peace and healing... :flowers:

[StephanieB]

ROFL!

You are welcome to be a very strange woman, too, if you want - there is nothing wrong with that, in fact it could be a lot of fun. ;) However, chances of me ever typing that on an on-line forum are rather low.
That is so funny!!!

See - that is just why it struck me as so funny, and odd enough to make me go back and re-read.

Not only would I not expect that from you, I wouldn't expect it from most LHCers. LHC is one of the nicest places to be on the 'Net. It's such a polite and civil place, and filled with so many caring individuals. It's just not like most other places like it elsewhere on the 'Net.

So, when I read "strange woman", I kind of stopped and said to myself; "Whoa! Whaaaat??"


I guess I really do have to admit to being strange, though, at times.

[arylkin]

StephanieB- I wish you inches and feet of beautiful hair. :flowers:

I'm sorry you have had such a horrid time with your parents in the past- I hope growing out your hair is able to be a cathartic experience for you. *hug*

[StephanieB]

Thankyou for the explanation about your background. It helped me to see more clearly where you were coming from in your first post. I am so very sorry for what you have had to go through with your parents.

My relationship with my own mother was a little on the 'cool' side - but I was fortunate in that overt abuse didn't enter into it.

Thankyou also for the apology, which only raised you further in my estimation.

I wish you peace and healing... :flowers:

I never intended to spill my entire life that way, tonight, here... but since it seemed necessary to explain my rudeness to my mother after I inadvertantly let that show so darn clearly - it just seemd appropriate to fully explain, rather than give a half-expl;anation, or to lie.

I dislike lying, and I felt that you all deserved a factual explanation. Especially since I don't usually speak like that here.

And... the truth is also that I'm not ashamed of who/what I am.
And I've got no reason to be ashamed of what others (my parents, for example) do.
People who know me, or know my family, know that it's not me who's "odd" in my family.

[CurlyOne]

Mother's favorite way to punish me (earned or not, most punishments were not earned) was - when I was younger and she didn't fear that I'd fight back - to grab my hair in one hand and drag me to the kitchen, take her shears and hack my hair off unevenly and roughly. She made sure it looked awful. Teachers were regularly horrified by my presence in their classroom, between my bad bruises and my hacked hair. (I have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, am slow to clot, and burise spectacularly badly.) Principals reglualry had to get teachers to teach me privately in a spare classroom not in use because some of my teachers refused to have me in their classroom - they said they couldn't bear to look at me, and my horrifying appearance disrupted the other kids too.

Oh my gosh!!! That would absolutely traumatize me!

I think you set boundaries and that is a good thing but the language is pretty strong there. One suggestion for the future is that whenever she starts to talk about your hair in a negative way simply hang up. No words, nothing, just *click*. Eventually she will figure out that to talk to you hair is off limits. Big hugs for what has happened to you though *hugs*

[SHELIAANN1969]

StephanieB, I have a granny who is 75, my gramps is 78 and is a bit on the *******-ish side but I would never disrespect him like that.

There is a lot of history but I think at 73, if your mom is abusing you, it would make YOU the bigger person/ more mature adult to either just hang up or steer the conversation in another direction.

I am sorry to say but letting everyone know how you behaved and spoke to your 73 year old mother, kind of shocks people and maybe puts you in a different light.

It may have been better to spare the details from your end? I am just saying.

I know I did not live your life nor shall I pretend to know what you personally went through, but that kind of treatment, to an elderly woman, especially your mother, when some of us have lost our own Mothers and wish we still had them, really doesn't gain much sympathy towards your plight.

I am NOT being judgemental or saying "you are a bad girl" or anything, what you and your mother talk about and how you talk about it with her, is your business. When you make it public, it is indeed a shock factor and peoples feathers get ruffled.

But to me, 73 means elderly, frail, set in her ways, but that doesn't mean she is correct in her methods. It also means that at her age, she isn't long for this world and you may possibly regret that moment when she passes on. (I am speaking from experience here on this one, trust me sweetie, no matter how mad you are, you will regret, eat and obsess on those little words once Mom is gone)

I had a great relationship with my mom but when she was drunk, she could be a mean ass, I will never ever ever forget the last bitchy, horrible, hateful, awful thing I said to her, I cry about it often and I am unsure if I will ever forgive myself 100 percent. I know that she knows I was frustrated, the dynamics were just insane, things were crazy, everyone was stressed, but that did not make what I said right, it just makes me sad.

Think about it, you will fell as you feel, but you don't know how it feels to say something shitty and then watch the person you love so much and said that awful thing to, die slowly at 52 years old, and left forever felling like a turd.

[StephanieB]

StephanieB- I wish you inches and feet of beautiful hair. :flowers:

I'm sorry you have had such a horrid time with your parents in the past- I hope growing out your hair is able to be a cathartic experience for you. *hug*

Thank you.

Like I said, I might well grow it long and gorgeous... and ond day go get it cut off, all of it, and donate it, and be just as happy after as I was before. Who knows?

It's all about control, for me. I control it. No one else. :D


Hey, if I wasn't such an "old broad" - I might grow it to 50 or 60 inches, cut & donate it, and grow it back out to 50 or 60 inches all over again, and maybe cut & donate that, too. :laugh:
But I might not have enough time left to do it all twice over. :rollin:

[arylkin]

Thank you.

Like I said, I might well grow it long and gorgeous... and ond day go get it cut off, all of it, and donate it, and be just as happy after as I was before. Who knows?

It's all about control, for me. I control it. No one else. :D




Well said. Your hair is quite lovely in your avatar. :)

[StephanieB]

Oh my gosh!!! That would absolutely traumatize me!

I think you set boundaries and that is a good thing but the language is pretty strong there. One suggestion for the future is that whenever she starts to talk about your hair in a negative way simply hang up. No words, nothing, just *click*. Eventually she will figure out that to talk to you hair is off limits. Big hugs for what has happened to you though *hugs*

Nah. It wouldn't, either. ;)

What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Take it from me.

Only the weak cave in; the strong survive and get stronger.

And, this may sound cruel, but I firmly believe that if someone is too weak to haul themself up by their own bootstraps and learn how to survive - they just might not deserve to survive.

I don't mean that one ought not to help someone else less strong.
I don't kick people when they're down, and I always extend a helping hand... or fist (if the underdog's getting beaten up and needs a champion).
I prefer to help others and to nurture when that's possible... but I also firmly believe that each of us has ultimate control over our future.

[Darkhorse1]

Good for you!!! I can't believe she's that narrow minded in regards to your hair. I mean, it's YOURS! Sheesh!

No one in my family even starts to ask--and even long standing family friends of my mom's (I've known them since I was a baby). The husband asked me when I was cutting my hair and his wife, who loves short hair, snapped and said 'she can't! She works with horses! It has to stay long to make a pony tail'. :D :) It was so funny.

Me hair will stay long until [I]I[I] chose to cut it. GOod for you to stick to your convictions! :)

[manderly]

Well, count me as one of the "shocked" when I read your post. You may want to edit it with the info about your history and where you're coming from, that certainly helped me to understand the hostility.

I just wonder, why do you bother speaking to this woman? If she is that horrible, there is no rule that says you have to speak to her at all. My parents and I have officially dis-owned every single member of my Father's side of the family, save a select few who've chosen to stay out of it.

Despite the saying, you CAN pick your family once you are old enough to do so.

[StephanieB]

Well said. Your hair is quite lovely in your avatar. :)

Thank you.


I meant to have hubby take a pic of my hair today... and I forgot. Now' it's too late; I already took it down, without thinking. :(

I'll have to do it again, soon.

It was up in a sock bun, a nice big fat sock bun, and it was freshly-washed this morning... and just above the bun, tucked in between the bun and my head, was a big piece of bling: a big antique real tortiseshell Spanish comb.

I did it nicely because I went to a CFA show today, and wanted to look nice while I oohed and ahhed to the breeders. One of my friends was one of the judges, and I wanted to look good for his sake. You should SEE the fab toy I bought my 10!! :banana: I can't wait to set it up on the right door in the house... Once I identify which door is "right"..... :ponder:

[Delila]

Just thought I'd chime in with some peaceful wishes.

I can relate to the boundary-less dysfunctional family situation, communication problems, and the frustrations of coping with those who flatly refuse to acknowledge or change their abusive habits, much less apologize for the abuses of the past.

Mercifully, beyond the fact that my mother found my hair as impossibly limp and lifeless as her own, and always nagged me to wear bangs to cover my high forehead (that I got from dad's side of the family), I made it through childhood with relatively minimal hair trauma, all things considered.

Lucky for me, I don't have a cell phone, and I managed to somehow persuade my sister not to dump her latest tirades on me, so I've managed to live without much of the melodrama for the past ten years. It swirls on and on, but I'm no longer swept away or even aware of most of it, and that suits me just fine.

[StephanieB]

Well, count me as one of the "shocked" when I read your post. You may want to edit it with the info about your history and where you're coming from, that certainly helped me to understand the hostility.

I just wonder, why do you bother speaking to this woman? If she is that horrible, there is no rule that says you have to speak to her at all. My parents and I have officially dis-owned every single member of my Father's side of the family, save a select few who've chosen to stay out of it.

Despite the saying, you CAN pick your family once you are old enough to do so.

I see no reason to edit. I refuse to edit the truth. I'm stubborn like that, I'm afraid. ;)

You did ask a very good question, however, when you asked why I bother to speak to Mother at all...

I speak to Mother for Daddy's sake. If I didn't speak to Mother, I'd never get to speak to or see Dad, and he has willingly come to terms with me, apologized, and amended his ways so taht he is no longer abusive... and he tries to curb Mother's abusiveness, to the best of his ability. I actually love my father. He's just turned 78 years old last week; I don't want to lose him any earlier than I must. Mother is most definitely Dad's Gatekeeper... or maybe I should just say his Keeper. Dad can't live on his own, and he wouldn't want to live without my mother; he truly loves her.

If I'm really lucky, Mother will die before Dad will, and he is welcome to come and live with me.

But, if Dad is really lucky, he will die before Mother, because he really just won't have any will to live left in him after she's gone.

And Mother has always been healthy and strong, physically. She is quite likely to outlive me; I'm not all that healthy.

Presently, both of my parents are likelier to outlive me, than I am to outlive either of them. Even Dad - with his heart problems, his stroke, and his dozens of heart attacks and open-heart surgeries is likelier to outlive me. This is quite well known and well discussed in my family. EDS is slowly killing me, and if something else doesn't get me first - it will get me, in the end; my prognosis is not a pleasant one. I have a DNR order in my medical files.

[StephanieB]

Lucky for me, I don't have a cell phone, and I managed to somehow persuade my sister not to dump her latest tirades on me, so I've managed to live without much of the melodrama for the past ten years. It swirls on and on, but I'm no longer swept away or even aware of most of it, and that suits me just fine.
hehehe

I'm the eldest of two, and my sister is less sane than my mother... so I can't just dump that in sis' lap. I wish I could.


2 1/2 years ago, right after Dad's stroke, the day he came home from the hospital... my sister was there, and she and Mother got into some fracas or other. The police had to come (at my father's call to 911, even though he couldn't speak the right words to explain what was going on - the shrieks convinced them to come quickly) and break the two of them apart. Sis had one of Mother's kitchen knives in her hand, and the tip fo the knife was perilously close to Mother's heart underneath her ribs. My mother pressed charges, my sister was arrested and stood trial, and my mother got a Court Order of Protection against my sister. Until that day, sis was always the Golden Child, while I was the pile of refuse child. Now, of course, I'm the only daughter who will tolerate Mother at all. I don't have it in me to cut myself totally off from my parents like my sister has done. I can't abandon Dad to Mother without his having any recourse.

So..... I have to talk to her regularly. 3 or 4 times per week, basically.
And I have to visit them a few times each year.
How much longer will I have to see Dad, and to enjoy his company?
Dad's 78 - how much longer will he live?

[QueenMadge]

Stephanie B, I am so very proud of you. That was a boundary defining conversation of the ultimate kind. Sometimes blunt speaking is necessary particularly when we are still viewed as "less than a separate person" by the people in our lives. I do not have contact with my mother any longer but I would have been better served if I could have stood up to her verbally much sooner in my life. Abusive people often do not understand a boundary unless it is strongly expressed.

Age has nothing to do with it. My mother was still throwing things (coffee cups) at me at the advanced age of 67. because I drew a boundary in my house that she didn't agree with I might add.

Her lack of self control was something I had to deal with all my life.

My hair was cut against my wishes when I was 6 and kept super short until my teen years. It was one more way for her to let me know that I had no say over my person, and that my hair which I loved, was one more ugly thing about me.

Do what you want with your hair!

Margot

[manderly]

I meant to edit your OP to add a disclaimer as to why you would be so hostile. Most people (as you can see from this thread), can't fathom speaking to a parent that way for what seems a minor offense in your story.

Adding to your OP a little disclaimer that you and your mom have a torrid history does not edit the truth.

[wintersun99]

..............

[longhairedfairy]

I'm going to keep my mouth shut for now, except to say that I'm proud of you for protecting yourself. *HUGS*

[StephanieB]

Stephanie B, I am so very proud of you. That was a boundary defining conversation of the ultimate kind. Sometimes blunt speaking is necessary particularly when we are still viewed as "less than a separate person" by the people in our lives. I do not have contact with my mother any longer but I would have been better served if I could have stood up to her verbally much sooner in my life. Abusive people often do not understand a boundary unless it is strongly expressed.

Age has nothing to do with it. My mother was still throwing things (coffee cups) at me at the advanced age of 67. because I drew a boundary in my house that she didn't agree with I might add.

Her lack of self control was something I had to deal with all my life.

My hair was cut against my wishes when I was 6 and kept super short until my teen years. It was one more way for her to let me know that I had no say over my person, and that my hair which I loved, was one more ugly thing about me.

Do what you want with your hair!

Margot

Margot, I often forget how normal people who didn't grow up abused have so much trouble fathoming abuse, or what it does to one.

Then, I get a bit green-eyed for a short bit, wishing I too could have been like that: not fathoming cruelty.

Eventually, I remind myswlf that I'm stronger because of it, so I should just forget it, let it go...




I meant to edit your OP to add a disclaimer as to why you would be so hostile. Most people (as you can see from this thread), can't fathom speaking to a parent that way for what seems a minor offense in your story.

Adding to your OP a little disclaimer that you and your mom have a torrid history does not edit the truth.
Oh. Aren't I the dense one tonight? lol


Maybe a single sentence in the beginning of the first post..... :ponder:

[StephanieB]

I'm going to keep my mouth shut for now, except to say that I'm proud of you for protecting yourself. *HUGS*

No, don't 'shut your mouth'. Be yourself and stand up for what you think is right. :)

If you find out later you were wrong... so be it. You can always state, "Gee I think I may have been wrong, before", and that's fine too. :)

[StephanieB]

I meant to edit your OP to add a disclaimer as to why you would be so hostile. Most people (as you can see from this thread), can't fathom speaking to a parent that way for what seems a minor offense in your story.

Adding to your OP a little disclaimer that you and your mom have a torrid history does not edit the truth.

So done.

Thanks for the suggestion. :)

[StephanieB]

Stephanie, good for you for hanging in there and doing what you believe is best for you! I wanted to say that I love, love, love your Avatar photo :)

And I was thinking about replacing it with a big fat sock bun.....


I guess not, now.

[longhairedfairy]

No, don't 'shut your mouth'. Be yourself and stand up for what you think is right.

If you find out later you were wrong... so be it. You can always state, "Gee I think I may have been wrong, before", and that's fine too.

Well... I believe you had EVERY freaking right to say what you did. You DID try to "be diplomatic" and "steer the conversation away" from that subject. I'm all for "respecting elders/parents," but not to the point of allowing them to abuse you, physically OR verbally.

[Kleis]

The disclaimer (as well as the explanation) totally fills in the WTF gap. As Manderly said, it's the perception of an extreme reaction to a seemingly minor offense that is startling. Too bad you have to deal with her to have a relationship with your dad. What an energy drain! Thanks for the explanation!

[Robbi Dehlinger]

Guess I would not use language like that on my mom, but then she was never abusive to me either??

Hang in there and let it drag the floor and make sure you wear it DOWN when and if you visit:)

You might give her the link to here if she has a computer??

[everstar]

I love your hair in your picture, and I'm really really glad that you're growing it the way you want, and defending it (loudly, if necessary). That's all I wanted to say.

[StephanieB]

Yeah, well, we all make sacrifices for something we fell is better.

My dad is well worth it! He's a very interesting man, once you learn to overlook his inability to deal with his own frustration, and his lack of anger management skills.

Since I live in the proverbial glass house, I don't throw stones. lol
I too have a serious anger management issue, so I can understand his inability to deal better with it.

I love my father, he did the best he could for me. I know that now.
What else can I ask for - besides the best he can manage?

When I was an infant, my mother had no milk and I was allergic to eveyr formula on the marker in 1961. I have a serious lactose intolerance, and I couldn't tolerate goat milk, either. I didn't thrive, of course, and I ended up in NICU. A NICU nurse then gave me Tuberculosis. I spent my first 18 motnhs in the NICU at Michael Reese Hospital (Chicago). My mother never once laid eyes on me. My father, however, came to spend time with me each and every day, holding me whenever the nursees permitted it. I was 18 months old when I was sent home to live with my parents, and that was the first time - when Dad brought me home - that Mother ever saw me. She was only 6 months from delivering my kid sister by then. She'd already written me off, and had made her replacement daughter.

I always looked more like Dad than Mother... until my wedding. Somehow, once I donned my wedding gown, I somehow morphed - facially - into a carbon copy of my mother. Go figure...

Mother hated my choice of husband. She's never been comfortable with the fact t
hat hubby is 16.5 years older than I AND a mere 11 years younger than she is! She's never been comfortable with his being closer to her age than mine.

[QueenMadge]

Hey you are not such an "old broad"lol I just turned 45 and if it wasn't for the fact that everyone around me is getting older I wouldn't notice.....I do think about growing time now though when considering any hair change.....

on the other topic of abused upbringing vs non-abused. I too identify with the coming from another planet kind of thing.....I can intellectually know that others did not grow up like me and therefore have no concept of how warped primary relationships can be.

I have felt envy, for what I perceive must be a better beginning to life, the self confidence that must come from having that sense of unconditional love...instead of the arbitrary twisted thing that I knew.

I cannot really "know" it as an internal thing because I did not experience it growing up. Now, if you want to talk about my children and how I love them then I can understand it. I try to not impose my preferences on them as to their appearance with the exception of tooth brushing, deoderant wearing and showering....going in a car with a teenage or young adult male without adequate grooming offends my sensitive nose....if they want their hair long, short, brushed or unbrushed then that is their business.


My self confidence is hard won and precious. My boundaries are built upon having someone try to destroy me as a person and my soul as a child. That I still have hope, joy and the ability to love is a testament to my stubborn will to survive for something better.

[StephanieB]

Hang in there and let it drag the floor and make sure you wear it DOWN when and if you visit:)

You might give her the link to here if she has a computer??

That's what the whole thing is about: I wore it down to my aunt's & uncle's house for the Jewish New Year family holiday supper.

She hadn't realized how long it had gotten. It's almost always pony-tailed and/or up whenever I've seen her before.


She never gets a crack at Dad's computer. She's probably better than he is on it... but Dad hogs it all to himself. It's his only thing that he controls; Mother controls everything else in hsi life. Mother must go use a computer at the public library.

[Robbi Dehlinger]

20 inches isn't very long? Heck! Mine is that long???

[StephanieB]

Hey you are not such an "old broad"lol I just turned 45 and if it wasn't for the fact that everyone around me is getting older I wouldn't notice.....I do think about growing time now though when considering any hair change.....

on the other topic of abused upbringing vs non-abused. I too identify with the coming from another planet kind of thing.....I can intellectually know that others did not grow up like me and therefore have no concept of how warped primary relationships can be.

I have felt envy, for what I perceive must be a better beginning to life, the self confidence that must come from having that sense of unconditional love...instead of the arbitrary twisted thing that I knew.

I cannot really "know" it as an internal thing because I did not experience it growing up. Now, if you want to talk about my children and how I love them then I can understand it. I try to not impose my preferences on them as to their appearance with the exception of tooth brushing, deoderant wearing and showering....going in a car with a teenage or young adult male without adequate grooming offends my sensitive nose....if they want their hair long, short, brushed or unbrushed then that is their business.


My self confidence is hard won and precious. My boundaries are built upon having someone try to destroy me as a person and my soul as a child. That I still have hope, joy and the ability to love is a testament to my stubborn will to survive for something better.

Yes! That is so right!

I just can't comprehend that it woldn't've been automatically better to have been raised 'better" or kinder.
Of course, for all I know - it might have been even worse for me, had my parents not been abusive.
One just never knows... and never will.

[QueenMadge]

I more properly should have said might be, not must be.....but I understand what you mean I think. I would not now at this point in my life give up any part of it if it meant I would be other than who I am. Besides this is life...it is not "fair", it is what it is. My life now is my choice and I am happy with it.

[intothemist1999]

Age is no excuse for being a prat, or being allowed to get away with it.

Age is no reason that a person deserves MORE respect...surely not just on account of age, *especially* if they're a prat. I think it's all on merit. If they're a frail 33 year old, but a totally venomous person, do they qualify?

I'm not saying an oldster has to be a a perfect angel, but let's face it, there are nasty, vile people in all walks of life, in all countries, and of all ages.

And may I just say, StephanieB, I'm amazed at how poised you've remained through all this tangent :flower:

[longhairedfairy]

Age is no excuse for being a prat, or being allowed to get away with it.

Age is no reason that a person deserves MORE respect...surely not just on account of age, *especially* if they're a prat. I think it's all on merit. If they're a frail 33 year old, but a totally venomous person, do they qualify?

I'm not saying an oldster has to be a a perfect angel, but let's face it, there are nasty, vile people in all walks of life, in all countries, and of all ages.

And may I just say, StephanieB, I'm amazed at how poised you've remained through all this tangent

That's true, but I guess I meant respect for experience and knowledge (which, to some extent, can come with age, but not always), not the number itself. Sorry, I'm not being very clear:/

[manderly]

Well with all this extra information on your relationship with your mother, I wanted to let you know that I'm proud of you and how well you've handled her and how STRONG you have grown up. A life like that would have squashed many people, but you've done very well for yourself. So bravo for being a strong, individual woman in the face of adversity.

[tiny_teesha]

I would have reacted almost the same. Well done to you. She sounds controlling. I personally think you did a good job of handling her!
If my mum says to cut i either say "nope, my hair i do as i want" or if she is being pushy i will fight with her displaying my argument and if she still thinks she is right and i can't be bothered arguing with her i give in, though i am extremely stubborn- it is so I make her shut up!!!
But yes, i commend you. You shouldn't have to fight about your hair, but some people out there are just way too controlling and don't know when to but out. You could just say polite "point taken, my hair, i do as i like" and repeat that exact line over and over again with whatever she says! :P She should finally get it right??? haha

[blondecat]

IVY [I Validate You]

I Admire your strenght, your Will, your Guts to hold true to your value of your body mind and soul.

Without going into detail, I too come from a similar but different background. I Had my hair hacked off till I left, and became strong enough to be True to Myself and held MY own ground too.

I understand why you forgave.

I understand why you still keep in contact/talk with your Smother.

If you want some Toxic Families Forums Links, Where you can talk to your hearts content and know everyone understands, I can PM you about that.

Peace [gentle Hugs]

[eadwine]

My idea to this would be to ban the hair topic from all conversations. Just tell her next time she starts about your hair that you are not going to discuss this and if she continues you will hang up. She calls back, she proved that this time after all. ;)

It is just one of those forbidden area topics. :)

Also it's a bit harsh to come down on the OP with the comments of youshouldbeyadda and howlongwillyouhaveherstill. You don't know the situation in which she grew up, you don't know how traumatizing things have been. Just MHO ;)


Edit? Oh I see now that the explanation wasn't given till later. So my "harsh" comment is now moot ;)

[Ndnlady]

..... and this is how I dealt with it.

first: it has been suggested, and you'll about this read further in this thread, that I point out that my mother' abused me AND that her favorite method of 'punishing' me was to hack off my hair and to humiliate me publicly by doing that --- and thus the antagonism between us, which is clearly apparent in the convo

carry on


Conversation between Mother and myself this afternoon:


"Oh, not to change the subject, dear..... but..."

cough cough cough

"Are you all right, dear?"

"I j--"

"Well, anyway, not to change the topic to something less pleasant, honey... but you really need to cut your hair. Long hair looks ridiculous on a middle-aged woman. You're going to be 48 soon, y'know."

"No s___?"

"Ex-cuuuuuuse me?!"

"I'm only 47, Mother, you're the 73-yr-old. If either of us is likely to forget anything it's gonna be you, not me!"

"Age has no place in this discussion!"

"Ri-i-i-ight."

"As I was saying... and don't you dare interrupt me again, Stephanie Ellen... you need to cut--"

"S__ the f__ u_."

"What did you just say--"

"If you interrupt me once more, before I'm done, I will hang up. I mean it."

"Don't you dare hang--"

"I won't. IF you don't make me do it. Now, as I was saying before you so rudely interrupted me... You butchered my hair for nearly 2 decades, and I couldn't do a thing about it. I told you when I moved out, that if you ever laid a finger on my hair again, I would break your fingers right off you hands. I still will. I still mean that. DO NOT TEST ME!"

long silence

"Are you finished yet? I can speak, now?"

"Sure."

"Long hair looks ridiculous on older women... Well - not that you're exactly 'older', per se..... but you ARE approaching middle age... Actually, you already are middle-aged... and yoou really should cut your hair to a more appropriate length, That's all."

"Yup."

"What does that mean? That you'll cut your hair and wear it more appropriately?"

"Nope. Not a chance. It meant that I heard you. It was merely acknowledgement that I'd heard you. You said it; I heard it. Ya done now?"

"But you're not gong to cut it, are you?"

"Nope."

"Maybe you don't understand--"

"Please let me remind you: 'In my house, you live by my rules; When you own your own house, you can do as you please.' I'm 47 years old, Mother, and I've been married for 17 years, and I've lived outside of your domain and rules for..... --"

"Don't you use your father's words against me, young lady! I will tell you when--"

" 'Bye."

click

I hung up my phone.

It rang, I anwered.

"Did you hang up on me?! Or did your call just get dropped?"

"Nothing's wrong with the cell coverage where we're driving, Mother. I hung up on you. I answered it, knowing it was you, because it's got Caller ID... I thought I'd be nice and give you another chance at appropriate conversation with your middle-aged adult daughter."

"What is wrong with..... Why can't you understand that..... Do you know a single person who is your age or older, who has hair your length or longer?"

"Nope. Not a one. But since when have I ever cared what other people wore? I still don't care about fashion. I'm keeping my hair, and that's that. Change the subject. Now. Or I'll hang up on you again... and if I do - I won't answer any of your calls for a few days."


Why must I have to fight that much over my hair?!

It's MINE, isn't it??

I think you did a great job of standing up for yourself! Thumbs up all around!:)
I also grew up with an abusive mother, she was not only abusive but manipulative as well. The short end of it is, I finally stood up to her after years and years of abuse from her and have not seen her since. My sister also cut off all ties with her also. Unfortunately though my sister had it worse then I did growing up.
Just wanted to let you know I completely understand why you said what you said and I understand where you are coming from and I'm proud of you!:) It is your hair and no one can tell you what to do with it, you know what is best for yourself!

[bte]

...

You jumped down your mom's throat and totally put her on the defensive. The best way to win her over is to be calm and collected. Of course, I don't know your mom dynamics but in general, people are far more willing to see your point of view when you use logic, examples, politeness and kindness. :twocents:

I don't think parents of that type can be won over - they merely want instant obedience to what they wish to dictate. Sometimes being very firm and direct is the only possible response, and I think this is one of those occasions. tell her your hair will still be long when you're 73!

[paper]

Way to go on wearing your hair the way YOU want, and not let your mother win that battle. I know it must be tough, being abused. You must be a very strong woman. She is your Mom, and I'm sure you want to have some kind of relationship with her. I would suggest keeping the topic of your hair off limits. Make sure thats clear to her. Anyways, good luck! *hugs*

[Dolly]

Stephanie, you have lived through many things that most of us cannot fathom. Abuse at the hands of someone who is supposed to love you would have to be one of the worst (this coming from someone who survived THREE abusive marriages). I also understand that the abuse helped to shape who you are today. My past helped to shape me also, and as a result, I am much stronger and wiser than I would have been otherwise.

I applaud your strength and fortitude, and I think that, given the circumstances, you were completely RIGHT in your handling of the situation.


I'll add my experience, from the other end of the spectrum. My mother, whom I love dearly, is one of the sweetest women on the planet. She would give anyone the shirt off her back if she thought they needed it. And, I was raised in a family in which you DID NOT talk back to your elders, regardless of whether they were your family members or not. You just DIDN'T.

Well, my mom absolutely hates my hair. It is stick straight (I inherited it from her), and she regularly permed it when I was young, usually twice a year. And, I continued perming well into adulthood. Well, after my son was born, my hair wouldn't hold a curl, so I stopped perming and started letting it grow.

Then, about 5 or 6 years ago (I can't remember how long ago exactly), I started coloring to hide my premature graying......well, I started going auburn first, then gradually getting redder and redder. I only see my mom once a year, because we live 1000 miles away from each other, and she absolutely DETESTS red hair. Every year, she tells me that if I'm going to dye it, I should dye it black (her hair is naturally jet black)......I tell her nope, not happening. Every year it is the same. Well, last year, she practically begged me to go to her stylist to get it cut AND re-colored. Once again, I flatly refused.

So, this summer, we made the trip, and not only does she launch into the hair cutting and coloring discussion, she also tells me that she is SURE that her stylist could perm my hair with a curl that would STAY. I said, "Mom, I love you, but I like my color, I don't want a perm, and I am going to let it grow until it is dragging the floor, if I so choose." The look that I shot her showed that it was the end of the discussion.

OK, It was the day before my Grandma's 90th birthday party, and the stylist was coming to their house to do my mother's and grandmother's hair. Well, I had not seen this stylist for about 10 years or so. When I walked out to say "hi", she exclaims....."Oh my goodness! Your hair is GORGEOUS! You are one of the only people that I have ever seen who looks good in that color! Look how long and pretty it is! Oh, I would kill for hair like that!" So, my mother starts telling her that she has been trying to talk me into a cut, a perm, and/or a new dye job. Her stylist told her, "You would have to get someone else, because I wouldn't do it. It would absolutely RUIN it." My mother's jaw dropped and that was absolutely the LAST thing said about my hair. I felt so validated at that point! I did allow the stylist to give me a little 1/2 inch trim, as my ends were pretty dry. But, she showed me exactly how much she was trimming, and cut no more than I asked.

Since the trip, I have heard nothing negative about my hair......I am sure it will come up again, but I have found that in my situation, I just politely refuse, and then I remind her that she only sees me once a year, so she should be thankful that she doesn't have to look at it on a regular basis, since she hates it so badly. That usually clams her up.

[Lamb]

Well, count me as one of the "shocked" when I read your post. You may want to edit it with the info about your history and where you're coming from, that certainly helped me to understand the hostility.

Me too. Thank you, Stephanie, for explaining where you are coming from, those childhood experiences sure sound horrible.
Apologies if I offended you - without knowing about what you went through, I could only read your OP one way.

[Elphie]

Sometimes blunt speaking is necessary particularly when we are still viewed as "less than a separate person" by the people in our lives.

Queen Madge, that summed it up so perfectly, it deserved to be said twice. Being clear about those boundaries is very necessary to teach people how you will accept being treated when they insist on repeatedly going over the line.

[suicides_eve]

i say cheers to you for being able to get that off your chest. It is alot to hold back for so long. I can relate on similar levels.

your are right,your a grown woman and can manage yourself. and about the whole " under my roof you follow my rules..." my dad pulls that on me all the time.. it's like do you really forget i live xx miles away and have my own family and my own rent bills now? gezz:doh:

[misstwist]

Stephanie, I realize you aren't looking for validation, but I just wanted to chime in, saying how proud I am of you.

Too many of us put up with continued boundary violations and downright abuse just because it comes from family members. I always advocate totally cutting off that relationship when that is an option, but when it isn't we must be firm (again and again) in setting our boundaries and reinforcing them when they are violated.

[GlennaGirl]

Stephanie, my mom didn't outright chop my hair as punishments, but in a way I can see where you're coming from. My mom insisted on me having short hair and she said it was because I wasn't feminine like my sister, that I was "the boy my father never had", etc. and that was why I HAD to have it short.

I would beg and beg her to let me grow it. She would always have it cut anyway. Sometimes she'd get manipulative about it. Once when I was nine and getting more and more insistent, she begged and pleaded with me to let her try cutting it herself in a "gorgeous" style she'd seen, basically a Dorothy Hamil. (sp?) She showed me a picture. She started in sadly about how I just didn't trust her and that meant I didn't love her, etc. or something to that effect. Eventually I let her cut it. It looked nothing like the picture and was shorter.

People would go up to me in the store and call me "little boy" or "young man". My mom also dressed me in very boy clothes, again, because she said I wasn't as feminine as my sister, therefore I wasn't allowed to wear skirts or even frills. One time a nun bumped into me--I was 8--and she said, "Oh, I'm sorry, son." My mom would always take these opportunities to say, "See? You do look like a boy. I knew I was right all along."

It was horribly traumatic.

Once I got to pre-teens age she started using a different M.O. She would tell me I couldn't grow such "stringy, thin" hair and not have it look "ridiculous". If I did start to grow it she'd grab bits of it and laugh at the "strings" coming out of my head. She'd mock me, getting the whole family in on it, until I couldn't bear it any more and I let her cut it.

After the age of 12 she let me grow it but only if I got a perm so the "thin strings" of "non-hair" would "at least look like something". Needless to say, it would break off in my hands from the perms.

I still hear her voice in my head as my hair is getting longer and I often find "reasons" to cut...but I feel like it all kind of comes back to this.

I think it's horrible to use a child's physical features against her.

I never spoke to her like you spoke to your mom, but then again my mom did have her absolutely wonderful points. I still miss her (she passed away some years ago). She made certain parts of my life wonderful. So I'm not saying she was a monster. But I can feel where you're coming from on the extreme defensiveness of your hair and needing to set boundaries. For some people, you need to throw a verbal brick at them for them to honor boundaries at all.

[jojo]

My way of thinking is respect has to be earnt and your parents acted appallingly towards you and in my opinion you owe them nothing. You are an adult and have the right to wear your hair any which way you choose, ok so your language was a little blunt but I think under the circumstances you was within your rights.

Stick to your guns and live your life how you want, life makes you tough when you have been to hell and back, don't let those who patronize you bring you down, let those who encourage you and are there for you through thick and thin inspire you because these are the ones who matter.

We can not chose our parents, none of this is your fault they failed you and are still trying to control you as a grown women. This makes me angry, my father is a control freak too, i love him but we too have some rows as he sees it his duty to try to control my every move even though I am 39 years old.

Although my father never humiliated me in such a way, I can see how this has had an impact on your life and before we all judge our idealistic childhoods with yours we need to think there for the grace of god go I xxx

[CaraLynn]

I meant to edit your OP to add a disclaimer as to why you would be so hostile. Most people (as you can see from this thread), can't fathom speaking to a parent that way for what seems a minor offense in your story.

Adding to your OP a little disclaimer that you and your mom have a torrid history does not edit the truth.


What she said. I would cut out my tongue before I spoke to my mother that way for any reason, whether I were 47 or 107, so I was (understandably, I believe) completely shocked when I read your post, although I did understand better after reading the explanation. :twocents: Although I'd still be afraid God would strike me dead if I talked to mom like that....to me it's not so much the person, it's the principle of honoring and respecting my parent.

[goatgal]

I had a terrible, toxic relationship with my mother. She's been gone nearly 20 years and the old tapes still run in my head. I'm not going to blame or shame you for your outburst. I will say this: if the relationship is this toxic throughout, not just about hair, I'd sever said relationship. As someone else pointed out so eloquently, you don't pick your parents. But you sure can determine how much access they have into your life.
My first chop at the hands of my mother was at about 3, because she was mad at my uncle so she cut my hair. Figure that one out. Then I wasn't allowed long hair because it was too "sexual". WTF???? I waited until she'd been dead 16 years to grow the long hair I'd always wanted. And you know what? I love it, it's gorgeous, and I'm proud of it. And she haunts my thoughts regularly, telling me how stupid I look, how awful I am, etc, etc.

[QueenMadge]

I think one of the longest lasting effects of a traumatized childhood is the verbal tapes.....they can make it difficult to tell which attitude or idea about something is ours or was drummed into us by someone who needed to pass on toxic behavior. Getting therapy helped me to learn to stop abusing myself in lieu of being abused by the only parent I had. The verbal/emotional abuse was much more immediately damaging than the physical for me. I think that is why similare behaviors related by others can have such an impact.

Of course no one who has a healthy loving nurtured relationship with their parent would speak to them in language or with the force described here.

But for those of us who were belittled, humiliated, and constantly reminded we were "less than" it can be cathartic to know that you can stand up for yourself. The title of Mother is not sacrosanct it has to be earned. It is a gift.

[carloota]

But for those of us who were belittled, humiliated, and constantly reminded we were "less than" it can be cathartic to know that you can stand up for yourself. The title of Mother is not sacrosanct it has to be earned. It is a gift.


I agree wholeheartedly.

[Anne~]

:spitting:

[chantiny]

I just want to mention I am one of the rare ones who was NOT surprised at the OP w/o the warning. I was also abused as a child (though not with hair), and if I had chosen to continue a relationship with my parents, I would pray that I had the strength to keep boundaries that firm. Good on you!!

[longhairedfairy]

I just want to mention I am one of the rare ones who was NOT surprised at the OP w/o the warning. I was also abused as a child (though not with hair), and if I had chosen to continue a relationship with my parents, I would pray that I had the strength to keep boundaries that firm. Good on you!!

Me too. I thought it was kind of obvious (w/o the warning) that it came from things that had already happened, but I guess it makes sense that those that have never really been abused wouldn't realise.

[origane]

THis was such such an interesting conversation to read between your mother and you; I am very grateful of having been able to read it; thank you so much for daring showing that to the world and getting the comments on it; it is brave.
My, your Mother does have a strong mind, but it is so odd people have this strange "idea" about people that passed a certain age, have to have the hair in a certain style; I always wondered, with much sadness, why older women all have the same "ugly" short and permed hairstyle with yellow or brownish colouring in it; why can't women just keep their hair as they please without worrying that "that is it now, they have to comply to society's idea of an older version of themselves and fit the mould".
IT is only a fashion thing, that short hair amongst older women; used to be a time when they all had long hair and put them up in a pretty bun and looked so soft with their grey hair, respectful and beautiful.
I will fight, as I get older, to keep my hair long, and natural. Grey or not. I am so happy to read that you tried to explain to your Mum and didn't just "move on" but actually were so self assertive! I wish I oculd be that assertive to my family!
I prefered running away to the UK, it was quite an efficient way to get off their fingernails... Good continuation to you Stephanie and thanks for tharing those moments.

[Kleis]

Me too. I thought it was kind of obvious (w/o the warning) that it came from things that had already happened, but I guess it makes sense that those that have never really been abused wouldn't realise.

Sure, it was clearly *an* explanation, but one of four very plausible ones I could come up with. (I'll refrain from listing them, because I don't want the OP to think I'm making any accusations, which I'm not.) Point is, whether you settled on an explanation or not, it was all assumption until the OP clarified. :shrug:

[longhairedfairy]

*snip*
My, your Mother does have a strong mind, but it is so odd people have this strange "idea" about people that passed a certain age, have to have the hair in a certain style; I always wondered, with much sadness, why older women all have the same "ugly" short and permed hairstyle with yellow or brownish colouring in it; why can't women just keep their hair as they please without worrying that "that is it now, they have to comply to society's idea of an older version of themselves and fit the mould".

IT is only a fashion thing, that short hair amongst older women; used to be a time when they all had long hair and put them up in a pretty bun and looked so soft with their grey hair, respectful and beautiful.
*snip*

I've always wondered about that, too. Why aren't "older" women "allowed" to be beautiful? My mum's mother usually kept her hair a bit longer than the "norm" and she always looked more elegant than all the other women her age, and usually the younger ones as well.

[Speckla]

I didn't take offense to it - I figured there was a story like that behind it. My grandmother taught me well to hate my appearance and regularly took me to a hairdresser to have all my hair chopped off and insulted my appearance. She kept my aunt's naturally curly hair cropped off too short to curl and curled my mother's long naturally straight hair -- logic in that??
________
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[longhairedfairy]

Sure, it was clearly *an* explanation, but one of four very plausible ones I could come up with. (I'll refrain from listing them, because I don't want the OP to think I'm making any accusations, which I'm not.) Point is, whether you settled on an explanation or not, it was all assumption until the OP clarified.

What can I say? I'm psychic:D

[Demetrue]

I grew up with a parent who I now believe had something like untreated bipolar, narcissistic personality disorder and OCD, which resulted in a desperate need to control everything in our environment, including us, even if that meant resorting to abuse and manipulation. And though I've since moved 700 miles away after I had children of my own, when we talk on the phone and some criticism of my appearance is raised, I just say, "This is how I like it." Then I usually immediately say, "Oh, I have to go right now, sorry - bye." I have had times when I have cut off contact for months at a time, but now that there is a lot of physical distance, I can deal with phone contact several times a week. I worked out a strategy that when I feel like I am being verbally abused or bullied, I excuse myself from the phone and say I need to go now. And then I turn off the phone for a while. I feel that this strategy nips the abuse in the bud by removing myself as a target. I think it subtly trains the person not to engage in the abusive, manipulative behavior with you by not allowing them to repeat the childhood pattern, which is really just a habit for them. Sometimes you have to say something directly, like "if you ever lay a hand on me or my child, I will call the police and report you", but you usually will not have to resort to that when you're just on the phone with them. The "Excuse me, I need to get off the phone right now - I 'll talk to you this weekend," is a very good strategy.

[Robbi Dehlinger]

I didn't take offense to it - I figured there was a story like that behind it. My grandmother taught me well to hate my appearance and regularly took me to a hairdresser to have all my hair chopped off and insulted my appearance. She kept my aunt's naturally curly hair cropped off too short to curl and curled my mother's long naturally straight hair -- logic in that??

If there is, it certanly escapes me???:D

[Speckla]

btw - I don't know you but I am proud of you - do you realize you've stop being a victim? You are a surviver and sound very strong and very much your own person. No one has the right to abuse you and you have all the right in the word to protect yourself.

My mother and aunt were sexually and physically abused by my grandparents and the hair was just another means of control. Sick sick people in this world.
________
Mercedes-Benz S-Class (http://www.mercedes-wiki.com/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_S-Class)

[Comfrey]

Stephanie, I grew up in a household where abuse was a matter of fact. I didnt even consider it until I was much older and had children of my own, it had become so normal to me.

But it stays with you, and even though you are supposedly "middle aged" I can really understand where you are coming from.

I came also from a very christian household (my father is an Anglican priest) and swearing was a definite no no. But I swear like a navvy when I get going. :o

Incidentally my father is now 82 and I dont think it matters. Abuse is abuse

[StephanieB]

You could just say polite "point taken, my hair, i do as i like" and repeat that exact line over and over again with whatever she says! :P She should finally get it right??? haha
HAHAHA

Y'know, Teesha, if I did that ---

1) my mother would probably go berserk with frustration at not having been able to get me upset

BUT

2) I personally might go berserk, with the inability to think kindly towards her AND what must surely be my inability to shut her up

So... LMAO

I guess it'd be a toss-up as to which of us went off the deep end first. :rollin:

You've got me wondering, now.....





And may I just say, StephanieB, I'm amazed at how poised you've remained through all this tangent :flower:

Thanks.

I didn't get too upset here for a few reasons.
I realized belatedly that I hadn't explained nuff about my situation for anyone to understand properly. So I rectified that.
Even if NO ONE had understood my point of view after I explained further... the simple truth is that no one here makes a difference to my Life, so why get all upset and angry and bothered? It's the Internet, and once can certainly make friends on the "net, but one also meets a lot more idiots and jerks on the 'Net than true friends.
I am comfortable with myself as I am, for the most part; and I work on changing that about myself with which I'm not so happy. I'm a wiser person now than, say 6 motnhs ago... or a year ago, or two. Live and learn.

I just finished telling someone who apparently read this mostrous-sized thread in it's entirety but did not post in it via reply PM the Stephanie Blaine Philosophy of Life. I'll restate it here, since it applies. :)

Here it is, my "take" on the Art of Survival:

The simple truth is, all people can be broken down into two groups on the most basic level: survivers and the dead. Forget all about race, religion, ethnicity, nationality, etc. The simple truth is - one either is adaptable and can survive, or not. The only other alternative to survival is death. Each of us must choose which we want to be. Survivor or Dead?

If one chooses to survive at all costs... then that's what s/he must do: find a way to make it, to over come it, to live as happily as possible despite whatever "it" is.

After having said that it's a simple philosophy... it is, but it's not so simple to put into practice.

Experience polishes the actions required to live it.

If you ask ANY survivor of ANY horror -- they will ALL tell you the same thing that I'm telling you.


Now that I've shared this publicly, I also share a prayer that none of you who hasn't already experienced anything so bad happen to them never dies, and that these luck ones always have little reason in their lives to practice the Art of Survival. :)

[Unofficial_Rose]

Given all that you tell us about your mother's behaviour, I think she should consider herself lucky that any family members (especially you!) are still in contact with her.

[StephanieB]

My mother, whom I love dearly, is one of the sweetest women on the planet. She would give anyone the shirt off her back if she thought they needed it. And, I was raised in a family in which you DID NOT talk back to your elders, regardless of whether they were your family members or not. You just DIDN'T.

Well, my mom absolutely hates my hair. It is stick straight (I inherited it from her), and she regularly permed it when I was young, usually twice a year. And, I continued perming well into adulthood. Well, after my son was born, my hair wouldn't hold a curl, so I stopped perming and started letting it grow.

Then, about 5 or 6 years ago (I can't remember how long ago exactly), I started coloring to hide my premature graying......well, I started going auburn first, then gradually getting redder and redder. I only see my mom once a year, because we live 1000 miles away from each other, and she absolutely DETESTS red hair. Every year, she tells me that if I'm going to dye it, I should dye it black (her hair is naturally jet black)......I tell her nope, not happening. Every year it is the same. Well, last year, she practically begged me to go to her stylist to get it cut AND re-colored. Once again, I flatly refused.

So, this summer, we made the trip, and not only does she launch into the hair cutting and coloring discussion, she also tells me that she is SURE that her stylist could perm my hair with a curl that would STAY. I said, "Mom, I love you, but I like my color, I don't want a perm, and I am going to let it grow until it is dragging the floor, if I so choose." The look that I shot her showed that it was the end of the discussion.

OK, It was the day before my Grandma's 90th birthday party, and the stylist was coming to their house to do my mother's and grandmother's hair. Well, I had not seen this stylist for about 10 years or so. When I walked out to say "hi", she exclaims....."Oh my goodness! Your hair is GORGEOUS! You are one of the only people that I have ever seen who looks good in that color! Look how long and pretty it is! Oh, I would kill for hair like that!" So, my mother starts telling her that she has been trying to talk me into a cut, a perm, and/or a new dye job. Her stylist told her, "You would have to get someone else, because I wouldn't do it. It would absolutely RUIN it." My mother's jaw dropped and that was absolutely the LAST thing said about my hair. I felt so validated at that point! I did allow the stylist to give me a little 1/2 inch trim, as my ends were pretty dry. But, she showed me exactly how much she was trimming, and cut no more than I asked.

Since the trip, I have heard nothing negative about my hair......I am sure it will come up again, but I have found that in my situation, I just politely refuse, and then I remind her that she only sees me once a year, so she should be thankful that she doesn't have to look at it on a regular basis, since she hates it so badly. That usually clams her up.

ROTFLMAO

Oh, Dolly! That is just TOO FUNNY!! :rollin:

I only WISH that such a thing could happen to Mother and I... I'd fall on the floor and wet myself laughing if it ever did.

I wonder..... :ponder:

My mother's stylists, of curse, are all dead, now, as she always went to sylists older tahn she... and she's now 73.

She now goes to an old stylist that I used to use, back in the 1980s. The stylist is now... hummm... she must be around 50-ish. IIRC she was a mere few years older than I.

My Aunt Shirley (Uncle Ed's wife) also goes to the same stylist, as do a few of my old neighbors Mother's age, with whom I grew up. ("Aunt" Leona, "Aunt" Claire, "Aunt" Charlotte, and "Aunt" Sheila.)
I don't have a clue how all of these 70-something women - all of whom moved away from the old neighborhood 2 decades before my parents sold and moved about 5 years ago - all found the same salon or stylist... I really don't "get" that. NONE of these ladies ever kept in touch with each other... in fact, they all were jealous as hell of each other, and catty beyond belief towards each other! HOW did they ever end up at the same salon, with the same stylist?! And how does Maria ever keep a straight face when they all talk about each other??!!!
I wish I were a fly on the wall in that salon! I really do!!

But Marie always advocated keeping my hair at chin length and poodle-perming it, and she preferred my hair when I dyed it red, dark red..... so I somehow doubt that she'd ever like my virgin long hair better.

But I'm glad, Dolly, that you had the fun of that kind of validation! :D

[StephanieB]

I didn't take offense to it - I figured there was a story like that behind it. My grandmother taught me well to hate my appearance and regularly took me to a hairdresser to have all my hair chopped off and insulted my appearance. She kept my aunt's naturally curly hair cropped off too short to curl and curled my mother's long naturally straight hair -- logic in that??

None.


Maybe it was just one more control issue?

[StephanieB]

Before I trot off to my surgeon to discuss how well (or not) my 4 nerve blocks worked.....

I am pondering this: How many of us were "punished" or abusively controlled by parents or parnetla figures by our hair?

I'm shocked at the number of LHCers whose parents also chopped off hair strictly for purposes of humilitaing us!

I never knew anyone else who had that experience before now.
The complete distateful shock of my teachers, neighbors, and friends' parents, made it clear to me that it was, in fact, a very seriously UNUSUAL thing.....
Yet here are a surprising number of such 'victims' speaking up about it.

How common is such abuse, I wonder??


BBL

[bjt]

StephanieB--I just wanted to chime in here to support you. I think it was a very brave and difficult thing you did to stand up to your mother with clear boundries. good for you.

I've had a number of thoughts while reading this thread, that I feel like sharing. Feel free to stop reading here if you don't like opinions!

I am shocked in the lack of empathy some have shown on this board for ShephanieB. There is no age limit on abuse, and your mother's age does not give her the right to continue to abuse, manipulate or emotionally hurt you. And, just because someone else wouldn't curse or say things to their mother certainly doesn't mean that it wrong for someone else to do so.

Respect is a two way street...if a parent doesn't respect their child then I don't see any reason for the child to respect the parent. At some point the child just needs to protect themselves and not worry about "respecting" their elders or whatever.

I've also learned the hard way that just not talking to an abusive family member doesn't make you feel better. I wish I had told them just what I felt. When the mood strikes me, I can curse like a drunken sailor, but I wish I had used some of that bluntness in the past when at the time I chose to just stay quiet.

[bjt]

I am pondering this: How many of us were "punished" or abusively controlled by parents or parnetla figures by our hair? L

my parents didn't use it to punish me exactly, but because I thick dark hair they always chopped my hair off in a very short boy-ish cut (I was usually mistaken for a boy when in elementary school) but my sister who has very thin blond hair as allowed to have long hair. It really bothered me--still does. and it never made any sense to me.

[QueenMadge]

I can't speak for anyone else of course but in my family of origin, our mother used our hair as a handle (grabbing us by it and shaking), cut it off when angry....she cut my second oldest sisters hair off very crudely....bald spots etc. the night she threw her and our oldest sister out into the street in San Francisco at night...for me my hair was a real pain as it was thick and wavy, not as curly as now...but really thick and prone to tangles. Even my two sisters who were not overtly abused had their hair controlled....shorter cuts when little...allowed to grow it out when older. She did not like "messing" with our care when we were little. There were five of us and she was a single parent so perhaps that was some of it. There is a space of 6 years between me and my three oldest sisters and five years between me and our youngest sibling so she didn't have more than three of us being little all at once....my physical appearance was routinely commented upon in negative or hurtful ways......I was a premie baby and very small for my age....I was told I looked like one of the troll dolls popular back then...not a horrible thing to say in general but not great for a child who was never held, told she was loved or otherwise nurtured....I more often heard that I was not liked, was unloveable and sneaky and a liar....sneaky because I would look for food in the cabinets when she napped (no baby sitter most of the time to supervise or care for us) she worked nights and slept during the day....a liar because I am sure I would deny anything in an effort to avoid the beatings...that was a futile effort of course. Hair was only one way to control, shame and hurt.....sigh.

When I write this crap out, it stuns me to read it.....I lived it, but when I contrast it to my own childrens care and upbringing I don't understand it. How can any mother behave so the children she carried in her womb? And why treat three of her five so horribly and not the other two? It makes no sense.

My husband who is also from a severely dysfunctional family of ten children with two parents, sexual abuse of the daughters by the father, and precocious sexualizing of the boy children, physical abuse of some of the boys by the dad (fist fights if they stood up to him),....the boys hair was kept long all through grade school, they were not allowed to cut their hair. My husband a very cute looking boy routinely got mistaken for a girl, he was bullied for being a hippie where ever they went.

His mother would tell him he would make someone a good wife someday because he was good at getting his chores done, was quiet and sensitive.....the forms of humiliation vary from family to family, but I can't find one that is not shame based.

Grrrrrrr.

[ktani]

What I got from your first post was the amount of pain that you were in, are still are in about what happened to you then, and the fact that you cannot resolve any of it with your mom now.

There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for the abuse that you were subjected to as a child.

You and your family were held hostage by a woman who is clearly ill.

It is unfortunate that nothing was done about it and that there was no intervention to prevent the wounds that you yourself or with help, have to heal now.

Unless your mom has had help of some kind, she does not understand you. Until she acknowledges her actions as wrong she will not be able to come to terms with them or you.

You on the other hand, have made a new life for yourself, resolved the issues with your father and have a family of your own.

I think that you need to deal with your pain in terms of resolving it but as far as your mom goes, I think that at her age, unless she accepts the fact that she needs help, it is pointless for you to put yourself through the further torture of trying to discuss any of it with her.

She has to want help and be willing to accept responsibility for her actions. She may not be capable of that literally and there may not be anything that you can do about it.

As dysfunctional as your family was/is, you sound like you are well on your way to healing. Do not let your mom's inabilities and illness distract your or pull you down a path that leads nowhere.

Your hair was one of the tools of the abuse your mom used. You are out of her reach now but she still knows what buttons to push to get to you. Dont't let her. You can stop her by not reacting. Your hair is not the issue here, with her. It is just another means by which she can reach you. Only you can prevent that. She is still ill. You are not.

My heart goes out to you. Continue to be strong and be thankful that you are not like her and that you can see and know what not to do to others.

[JessTheMess]

First of all, :flower: it must have felt so great to finally stand up to your mother. I know it may have sounded harsh in some peoples opinions, but sometimes people like that only understand harsh words because that is what they are used to using. Next time she tries to offer her opinion, just tell her that you are not here to decorate her world and that no matter how many times she tries to persuade you, it will never work.




I am pondering this: How many of us were "punished" or abusively controlled by parents or parnetla figures by our hair?


My mother was severely abusive growing up. I too went to school bruised up, and stitched up. My mother never cut my hair, but she would braid it so gosh darn tight that I suffered from headaches and bald spots in the back. She would grab me by my ponytail and tug me back hard if she didnt think I was cleaning well enough (I was 8 or 9), and then continue to beat on me as well as my brother. It all ended after I red zoned one day so bad that my brother had to pull me off of ontop of her. I warned her that if she hit me again she was going to regret it. I felt the anger inside of me overwhelm me and I blacked out with rage. She never laid a finger on me after that incident. I moved out at 17 and never looked back. I look back and I know never to treat my children that way. She has since changed a lot, however she still has a long way to go. She was recently diagnosed bipolar and she has a severe anger management problem. I still love her...she is my mother after all, but I have the choice to keep my distance if needed.
:grouphug: to all of you that either grew up with abuse or are still going through it.

What doesn't kill us will only make us stronger.

[longhairedfairy]

*snip*
I am shocked in the lack of empathy some have shown on this board for ShephanieB. There is no age limit on abuse, and your mother's age does not give her the right to continue to abuse, manipulate or emotionally hurt you. And, just because someone else wouldn't curse or say things to their mother certainly doesn't mean that it wrong for someone else to do so.
*snip*


So was I, especially by so many people jumping to the conclusion, without knowing the circumstances, that StephanieB was automatically the one at fault.

[Euphony]

my parents didn't use it to punish me exactly, but because I thick dark hair they always chopped my hair off in a very short boy-ish cut (I was usually mistaken for a boy when in elementary school) but my sister who has very thin blond hair as allowed to have long hair. It really bothered me--still does. and it never made any sense to me.
Mine was always kept shortish - shoulder length pretty much. Not for punishment however, my mother had other ideas on that - hair that long makes a good handle.

I'm happy you stood up to your mother Stephanie! There are days I wish my mother was still alive so I could ask "why" or at least tell her how badly she f#$#$^ up my brother and myself.

[Snowymoon]

You are not alone, StephanieB. :grouphug: I recognize pieces myself in your posts.

[angelthadiva]

Maybe someone could explain to me what my mother's age has to do with it being okay for her to continue to abuse me?
(she's 73 - how much longer will she be here?)<snip>

I first want to admit that I've only slightly skimmed the first 20-30 posts.

Secondly, I wanted to give you this :grouphug:

Thirdly, to answer your question. Nothing is okay about someone abusing someone else. I'm sorry that you had to go through this.

Fourthly, you aren't that defenseless little kid w/o a voice. You are all grown up and make your decisions. YOU, StepanieB, calls the shots in YOUR life, not anyone else. I’m sharing this to you, because it took someone else to share this insight with me. My mother’s role in my life has shifted as I’ve become an adult. When I was younger, she told me what to do, I had to comply etc. As an adult, she can only advise. It’s up to me to decide whether to take her advice or not. Sometime, ya know what? I don’t. :D

As a kid I often heard, “as long as you are under this roof…” I’m not anymore, and being an adult in this aspect; is great! :D

I also wanted to add that we are responsible for our OWN actions. Granted you and your mom have a pretty dreadful history. Things she has done are pretty inexcusable; however, she is still your mother.

[longhairedfairy]

I feel so bad for those of you that were abused, whether physically or mentally/emotionally. I'm so thankful that my mother is a really great and loving person. My mind rebels when I try to imagine what it would be like in some of your situations. Now, my father is an absolute nut, to put it kindly, although I can handle him now if I have to, but it makes me want to cry to think how some people basically don't have a mother. *HUGS* to you all (and to those with abusive fathers, relatives, children, exes, etc.)

[StephanieB]

I can't speak for anyone else of course but in my family of origin, our mother used our hair as a handle (grabbing us by it and shaking), cut it off when angry....she cut my second oldest sisters hair off very crudely....bald spots etc.

my physical appearance was routinely commented upon in negative or hurtful ways......I was a premie baby and very small for my age....I was told I looked like one of the troll dolls popular back then...not a horrible thing to say in general but not great for a child who was never held, told she was loved or otherwise nurtured....I more often heard that I was not liked, was unloveable and sneaky and a liar....sneaky because I would look for food in the cabinets when she napped (no baby sitter most of the time to supervise or care for us) she worked nights and slept during the day....a liar because I am sure I would deny anything in an effort to avoid the beatings...that was a futile effort of course. Hair was only one way to control, shame and hurt.....sigh.

My husband who is also from a severely dysfunctional family of ten children with two parents, sexual abuse of the daughters by the father, and precocious sexualizing of the boy children, physical abuse of some of the boys by the dad (fist fights if they stood up to him),....the boys hair was kept long all through grade school, they were not allowed to cut their hair. My husband a very cute looking boy routinely got mistaken for a girl, he was bullied for being a hippie where ever they went.

he forms of humiliation vary from family to family, but I can't find one that is not shame based.

Yeah, I omitted the sexual abuse part of my own horrors.
NOT Dad! Dad NEVER did anything even remotely like that!!
But his oldest first cousin raped me twice - once when I was a pre-teen, and again when I was... eh, I was 28 IIRC. And this particular man was also a Philadelphia public school teacher... This cousin nearly died for his 2nd rape - the friends I was by then living with in NYC wanted to come down as a gang to Philly, and torture him before killing him. I'm not kidding - between 16 and 20 seemingly normal people who wanted to mount a home invasion and torture, maim, and kill this man... They settled for getting Philadelphia's school board to force him into early retirement... and an "I" (for incest) cut into his forehead with a knife. It wasn't my knife, in fact I wasn't even there, coz they hadn't bothered to let me know what they planned, so I only discovered it afterwards.
No one in our family has had anything to do with him after that, and he finally left and moved to Maine. (sorry if anyone at LHC is a Mainer - that was his idea - and knows my 2nd cousin; now ya know what that "I" stands for)
And another 2nd cousin on Dad's side also raped me.. and several other 3rd cousins of mine.

Yes, the forms of humiliation vary... but humiliation is humiliation.
One cousin on Dad's side used to force her kids to eat their own refuse if they gave her lip about whatever mess she served them. (and a lot of the time it really WAS "mess") The one and only time she tried that with me - my mother, when I reported it, went over there and settled it once and for all, with regards to HER daughters: Mother knocked her unconscious after a "little chat" with the cuz. lol IIRC that's one of the only times Mother ever stood up for me... but that was more a case of not wanting me to get any diseases that I might pass to her. Mother is, and always was, totally OCD about germs.

Only Mother - and Dad - was allowed to abuse us. No one else was.
When her best friend's husband struck me in the face coz he was afraid to mark his daughter and take flak from his own wife... Mother slapped him fully in his face, when they took me over to their house to make the accusation to their faces, and to see if it was true. My parents never spoke a word to them again, even though those were their best friends for years. Compelte cut off of relations. Period.

Go figure.....


hubby arrived home
bbl

[StephanieB]

You and your family were held hostage by a woman who is clearly ill.

It is unfortunate that nothing was done about it and that there was no intervention to prevent the wounds that you yourself or with help, have to heal now.

You are out of her reach now but she still knows what buttons to push to get to you. Dont't let her. You can stop her by not reacting. Your hair is not the issue here, with her. It is just another means by which she can reach you. Only you can prevent that. She is still ill. You are not.

My heart goes out to you. Continue to be strong and be thankful that you are not like her and that you can see and know what not to do to others.
Every blesssed word you said is 100% true.

I quoted those that screamed out at me from the monitor.

Yes, we were all held hostage by an insane woman. (my word - but true, and everyo family member and ev ery person who knows her, knows that truth)

Fortunately for Dad, he's her whole world, as she is his... so she actually takes VERY good care of him.

It's kinda sad, really, in a way... but it's also a testament of real true love. They really DO love each other... but to the exclusion of everyone else, including theier own children. It's not the kind of love I'd want to be wrapped up in... but I'm not, thankfully. A younger cousin... think she's a 4th cousin... or a 5th cousin - put it tinerestingly, a few years back: she said, at the age of 12, that "Aunt ___ and Uncle ___ love each other kind of like Severus Snape loved Lily Evans. Aunt ___ is Mrs Severus Snape, though..."

OMG! How true she was!

Although her parents took her home before WWIII erupted at my family dinner that night..... lol

[heidi w.]

Do you know a single person who is your age or older, who has hair your length or longer?"[/U]



YOu can answer that you do now. There's quite a few of us here, men and women, who are in your age category and VERY INAPPROPRIATE, INDEED.

LHC people DO count! You know us! Well enough. ETA: go ahead, make up a number. Tell her there's a whole world out there if inappropriate people! LOL

Hard to stand up for yourself. Later on you'll hang up earlier. You'll see -- with this sort of statement, when you have something pleasant to discuss, such as, oh the weather, call me back. I will have no further discussions about my hair with you. This topic is off limits with me. Kapiche? Or however that's spelled.

OR she calls to discuss your hair....."OH, that dreary subject again? Uh, not interested. Call me when you have an update on a soap opera!" LOL

Or, she wags her tongue and says "Hai" -- er. And you just say, "not discussing it. Bye"

I wouldn't reason with her any further. Now that you've made your statement and shown your anger and she's on notice. Next step is to overcome by not engaging even a little bit. You're on the right track.

You go Girl!

heidi w.

[Kirin]

Did you really speak to your own mother like THAT ?


Yes, sadly some of us do, I'm one of them. Just because someone gave birth to you doesn't mean you have to exhault them on high when they are being flipping idiots driving you nuts.

After you say NO the first time, or tell someone to mind their own business, its not rude, but assertive to tell someone to "step off" in whatever way suits you. (and frankly, makes you feel relieved, thank goodness).

Some of us have mothers that arent sweet, nice or caring and accepting of our life choices. I know its difficult for those that have them to understand the absolute outrage that one can hold toward a mother......

as for me, though I don't usually condone outright cursing one's mother, I applaud her for not taking any S**t, and putting her foot down.

[ktani]

Lot's of good advice here.

Disarm her by taking away the weapons she uses.

Deny her the opportunity to use them.

It doesn't have to be in anger. That will show her that she got to you, IMO.

Stand up to her firmly but calmly. There is no way she can fight that or make headway.

You have lots of support here. No one here needs to know you well personally, to see and understand what is going on.

Abuse is not acceptable period, be it physical or emotional.

[tsc]

I know I did not live your life nor shall I pretend to know what you personally went through, but that kind of treatment, to an elderly woman, especially your mother, when some of us have lost our own Mothers and wish we still had them, really doesn't gain much sympathy towards your plight.


Parents are people too-- and not everyone deserves respect.

Why in hell should she have to 'gain' sympathy for being abused by the people you're supposed to always be able to trust? Is that not enough? She has to kowtow to them throughout her adult life as well?

[angelthadiva]

Parents are people too-- and not everyone deserves respect.

Why in hell should she have to 'gain' sympathy for being abused by the people you're supposed to always be able to trust? Is that not enough? She has to kowtow to them throughout her adult life as well?

I don't know if you are a parent yet or not, but have your Little Johnny or Suzie cuss you out...Then respond back. :flower:

I don't think she should have to "kowtow" to them or anyone, for that matter. It's a level of respect you'd give to a stranger; it's her choice if she even maintains a relationship with her parents.

Her mother suffers from some kind of illness; not making excuses for her, but it's not like she's some kind of evil person who is just evil for the fun of it. In this instance, I think it does make a difference.

[SHELIAANN1969]

I have stated MY OPINION, just as you have stated yours, you took one small portion of a very large post and decided to hone in on that one statement, I wasn't speaking directly to YOU, nor do I believe anyone asked you to DEFEND StephanieB.

There really is no reason to be rude or assume that I am suggesting anyone KOWTOW to anyone.

I was simply stating a situation in my life that I now regret and was pointing out that in the very near future, these words that she thinks cause her mother pain, or validate her feelings, may backfire.

You chose to take that small portion of my post and glean from it what YOU chose to, that is your choice, if you cannot read the post in it's entirety an see the BIG PICTURE, then I don't know what else to tell you.

This whole thread has gotten progressively worse and that is why I actually hadn't posted anything else after my original reply.

"FROM the beginning", I feel this whole post was poorly presented, it made StephanieB appear very disrespectful in the beginning post, describing a personal conversation between her and her mother. When it was suggested to edit her OP to add in or to explain her childhood, the suggestion was taken in a manner that was defensive untill further clarification was made by someone trying to be friendly, helpful, genuine and caring.

The original post seemed more like a rant, than a hair story, and publicly admitting the conversation and how it progressed seemed really odd, in MY opinion.

It is rather shocking to hear anyone admit in a beginning post that they told an Old Woman to "STFU", regardless of the past situations, no one knows the whole story.

I personally do not post every little arguement my sister and I have or heaven knows this board would be full of rambling posts. :D Yea, we argue a lot, but I don't announce it.

The only time we argue about hair though, is when I won't let her "fix mine up" lol :)

You have completely missed my entire point of the post, but then again, it was not intended for you personally. :flower:

Also, in my opinion, yelling, cursing or otherwise emotionally attacking an Elderly person, no matter what the circumstances were in the past, is also a form of abuse. I would personally distance myself or just hang up the phone if the topic became heated, especially if it was about MY HAIR.


And in your own words -- Parents are people too, and should be treated as such.







Parents are people too-- and not everyone deserves respect.

Why in hell should she have to 'gain' sympathy for being abused by the people you're supposed to always be able to trust? Is that not enough? She has to kowtow to them throughout her adult life as well?

[ktani]

This thread has struck a nerve with many on a number of different levels.

I can see both sides.

It is natural and accepted to respect the elderly and one's parents regardless.

However, personal situations and relationships alter that.

The first post here is open to a number of interpretations without further information.

I do not think that anyone has been intentionally rude.

This thread is just understandably, very emotionally charged.

[Ineedmorehair]

I personally think that some people don't learn they need to back off on certain things until they're treated with extreme measures. I think people who say things like, you shouldn't be talking to your mother this way, you shouldn't talk to your elders that way, are people who have had it good in life-family life. I think, until you get to a point where the blood boils in your body from hearing someone belittle you over and over and who has a history of treating you like crap and talking to you like crap during your life, you wouldn't understand enough to really give your opinion. My own history with my mother is quite messed up, probably not as messed up as some of the stories in this thread, but it does involve some physical, emotional and verbal abuse. Well, it's considered abuse in the US, in many european (eastern) countries, it's what you do to set your kid straight, it's the norm. I have never said to my mom what the original poster said, I hardly ever talk back to her when she is in her nasty moods, however, I do not pick up my phone every time she calls and do hang up on her on a fairly regular basis when she gets out of line. It's become such a ritual, first she didn't talk to me for a week when I first did that but now she's so used to it, she calls back an hour later to ask me to turn the TV to some channel she finds oh so very interesting. I understand Stephanie's situation because I have been there, where, I hear my mother say something incredibly negative and hurtful and I just want to lash out, I know what it feels like to sit there and feel the anger and the hurt and the need to just scream out until your voice gives up from all the pent up anger. Some people can hold it in and some people have to release it somehow. Maybe when I get to be stephanie's age, I'll end up doing the same, who knows. My mother seems to have mellowed out a lot in her old age and from reading this thread this seems to be what's happening to a lot of parents! Why they have to wait until they're old to be better people, god knows. I didn't choose my messed up family, if I had had a choice, I would have never chosen them, none of them. But I am so stuck with them, and whoever says you can just get up and walk away and make that choice of never contacting them if you have it so bad is wrong because sometimes you just can't do that, either because of your conscience, guilt, etc. I never express this to people who have had relatively happy, normal family lives, because they will never understand the inner turmoil of someone who hasn't had that and it is so incredibly insulting, to me, for someone to tell someone else that they need to suck it up and not talk to their "elders" or their mothers that way when they have no idea how that feels. It's never just about "my hair" or "my clothes" or "my boyfriend" it's about one little experience after another slowly building up inside you until you're a ticking time bomb. These are the people that are supposed to love us the most and walk through fire for us and yet, in many cases they end up being the ones to cause us the most damage. Stephanie, if this happens again, don't even let yourself go through this, not because you shouldn't say that to your mother but because saying it will only continue to fuel the problem. I have had the discussion with my mother over my hair and I told her it's my hair, and I love it SO much (yes I emphesised 'so' lol ), and everybody else loves it how come she doesn't (ha ha singles her out) , and mom, you're wasting your breath- nothing you can say to me on this topic will change my mind in fact you're only going to convince me even more that I should keep it as is, so do you really want to waste your breath? Or make fun of the situation and tell her short hair is for ugly lazy people who don't take care of themselves because it's so low maintence. Save yourself the grief.

[angelthadiva]

I personally think that some people don't learn they need to back off on certain things until they're treated with extreme measures. I think people who say things like, you shouldn't be talking to your mother this way, you shouldn't talk to your elders that way, are people who have had it good in life-family life.<snip>

I humbly disagree.

I didn’t have a happy childhood. Many things happened to me as a youngster I could have easily blamed my parents for. As a parent now, myself, I can see first hand how difficult being a parent actually is. My kids didn’t come with an instruction book; however, I’ve done my best with them. I learned from my parent’s mistakes and their shortcomings. Hopefully I did a better job. I know for certain, I love my kids like crazy and I did my best.

My point in this whole thing is that people have control over their emotions and how they choose to display them. A few years (well, many years ago) I read the Purpose Driven Life book. In one of the beginning chapters the author was talking about how your mother and dad had the perfect DNA to make the person God had in mind. It was right about at that point, I quit blaming my parents for what I had or didn’t have while growing up. For what they did or didn’t do when I was a kid. Things that have happened in my life have molded me and have shaped me into the woman I am today; for the good or for the bad.

As an abused child, I’ve made a conscious decision NOT to abuse my children with words or deeds. I have a heart for children who are abused. I have a heart for women and children who have fallen victim to sex crimes. I write letters to congress and support local programs who help women and children who are victims of domestic violence. I’m also seeking a degree in social work. I think the things I’ve been through in my life were for a reason…A reason much bigger than just little (or not so little ;) ole me).

Respect is much like forgiveness in many regards. You don’t forgive someone because they “deserve it”. You forgive because it releases YOU from holding onto those things that are holding you back from living life to its fullest. I don’t give respect because other people deserve it, like they wear some sort of badge of entitlement. I give respect because I expect it in return.

The relationship between the OP and her mother is obviously tough, at best. We don’t know the whole story. I hope somehow she will gain some peace in the situation, for her own sake.

[Ineedmorehair]

And I humbly mostly agree with you. You're right, we do have control over our emotions and how we choose to display them but we are human and we are all different and not everyone is going to take the high road in certain situations, whatever the definition of a high road is because we all justify things differently due to our different personalities. I am not saying she is justified in using those words with her mother, I wouldn't do it, I haven't done it, I probably would never do it, but I am saying that having come from a place almost as dark as hers (based on her posts, her past was incredibly hard) that WE can forgive HER using that language. It's good that you have found something that made you look at things differently and that's made you a much better version of you, I wish everyone could work that way, but not everyone does and there are people out there who go through these terrible things (again, based on her claims of what's happened ot her in her life and her history with her parents) who don't get up and pick themselves up as well as you do, they just keep getting kicked down lower to the ground and sometimes, as bad as using the f word on your mother is, sometimes that is the only thing you can take and use to let that person know they need to stop right there, and that some things they may say in the future may be met with this again. And you can only hope that that will be enough for them/her mother to be gentler in their advice giving the next time they do it, or to just not do it, or to make it a quick simple suggestion as opposed to pushing it and let it go if the daughter isn't responding to it the way they would want her to. MY two cents:D

[Lady Godiva]

I have great sympathy for you, StephanieB, also empathy. I picked up on abuse in the first post. Been there, myself, slightly differently. I guess recognition comes with the territory. :(

A thought occurred to me while reading this thread. If your mother persists, time and again, to bring up your hair or anything else in your life that is your right alone to control, and despite your persistent attempts to fully enact cease-and-desist orders with her, perhaps try turning the tables each time she oversteps her boundaries. Develop the skill to do this now by practicing while on your own. What I mean is not to return evil for evil in a tit-for-tat manner, as that would be doing what she's doing, making you the Oppressed That Becomes The Oppressor. That does you no good.

What I mean is to try to understand that she seems to need to control you even though you've been your own adult for decades already. This is about her drive to control you much as she's succeeded to do with your father. So if she refuses to stop once and for all, for every time she brings up X, Y or Z inappropriate subject or criticism, challenge her back on her behavior.

"Mom, notice that you're playing the control game again."
"Mom, you're trying to control me again."
"Mom, why do you need to control me?"
"Mom, you're overstepping your proper boundary line again."
"Mom, stop being so bossy."
"Mom, instead of trying to control me, try controlling your need to control others."
"Mom, your behavior right now is abusive."

"Mom, I'm hanging up now/leaving. When you're ready to be respectful, then you can call me, but if you get abusive again, I'll hang up again."

Don't expect answers and don't care about her reasoning. It doesn't exist. Just keep calling her on her very own behavior. Get the subject off you. Master the situation by taking charge (controlling) it.

That's my suggestion. I have seen this method work well on people who seek to keep others in lower, weaker positions. Once they feel that they're in that position instead, and they realize that you've learned how to put them there, often they back off, at least as I've noticed.

:grouphug: to all who have faced this kind of darkness.

[manderly]

To those upset that some were a little shocked by the OP......well, when you are raised in a warm, loving environment, it's very hard to ever imagine speaking to a parent in such a way. :shrug:

When you aren't abused, it may be harder to "pick up on abuse" as some have stated they did. I didn't pick up on anything, just a really oddly skewed conversation.

So I asked her to clarify her original post after she kindly explained further in the thread to avoid the further confusion of people who don't have the uncanny ability to recognize the words and actions of someone who was abused.

[Sarahmoon]

Hopping in here rather late (and didn't read all 11 pages) but I just want to say, Stephanie, I'm very sorry to hear what happened between you and your mom in your youth. I'm glad you have your own life now, your own decisions and you wear your beautiful hair however you want.

If my mom had done any of that to me, I also would have little respect left for her. I hope those who were shocked with the way Stephanie spoke to her mother will also wonder: "Why does a mother treat her own doughter like that?"