Modern Hair or Historical Hair...I am so confused!

[LadyArwen]

Hi, I have only been on here a week. And I love long hair! It feels so good to not be alone :)

I am dealing with this dilemma: when I am with family, at events, or even at the store: people will make comments on my hair. I do not mind (really), it doesn't hurt my feelings but it has me wondering...why?

For example:
"Long hair looks bad/unhealthy"...well only if it is in bad condition
"wow look at that load of hair"
"You need to get at least a foot cut off"
"After this age you need to get it cut"
"when was the last time you cut it?"
"could I smell it?" no you may not i don't know you

My questions is this thought...historically women had very long hair and it is natural. What we do to our hair today, doesn't seem natural at all (sorry!) and very expensive and so much work. In more traditional cultures, women have longer hair. In fairytales and Disney, she always has long hair. Does anyone have any ideas as to why long hair is more "rare" these days and has a stigma attached to it. I readily admit I am conservative person...and I love the differences between men and women! They are beautiful to me. Is it radical feminism? Womens liberation movement? A rejection of beauty? Would love to hear your ideas!

[lapushka]

I know the feeling; that it's nice not to feel alone on your growth journey.

Maybe try wearing your hair up more? If you would like to. You don't have to because people are weird. But it will save your hair *and* save you the comments. :flower:

[neko_kawaii]

Does anyone have any ideas as to why long hair is more "rare" these days and has a stigma attached to it. I readily admit I am conservative person...and I love the differences between men and women! They are beautiful to me. Is it radical feminism? Womens liberation movement? A rejection of beauty? Would love to hear your ideas!

There is no stigma attached to long hair where I live, at least that I have ever noticed. Many people here wear their hair long, along side short and medium, dyed and genetic, straightened, curled, etc. Each culture is traditional to the people born into it, and those traditions don’t agree on the length or appearance of hair. I’m fortunate to live a a very diverse community.

I don’t find long hair any more beautiful than short hair, nor more beautiful than a side shave. BRING ON THE HAIR VARIATIONS!

You will find that most people on LHC like long hair on themselves and leave others to choose how each wear their own hair while celebrating the diversity of possibilities available to hair. It is pretty awesome how hair can be changed and what hair represents to each individual.

I like my hair long because it takes less effort on my part to leave it to do it’s thing. That is me. Others here have different reasons.

[Simsy]

So an interesting thing I found out a while ago, the beauty standards of any given era tend to be whatever is harder to achieve for everyone who isn’t wealthy. When food is scarce, the beauty goal is to be larger and well-fed. When your society relies on well-tended fields, pale skin is a sign that you have never had to work outside. Soft hands are an indicator that you don’t need to perform manual work. Long hair worn loose or in elaborate styles demonstrated that you were wealthy enough to spend time tending to your hair and probably had servents to dress it for you.

There is also the religious/cultural aspect to consider; long hair was often considered a sign of piety and devotion to whichever god/s you followed. Short hair was a sign of rebellion and/or shame as it was cut off as punishment. Long hair is also an evolutionary sign of good sexual health but that is largely secondary to this conversation.

These days, the beauty standard is for hair to be pretty colours, or to be styled in a way that your natural texture wouldn’t normally allow. Since this requires processing, and time; it is difficult to achieve if you are not wealthy (relatively speaking) and have the time. Since hair doesn’t cope terribly well with processing, long hair is now out of reach for a large portion of the population. As a result, the goal posts for “long hair” have moved up quite dramatically; and few people know anyone with hair longer than the norm for any particular area. Hence the perception that long hair is old-fashioned (in a way, it is), and the comments because you are not behaving according to the beauty standards that you should be.

So grow long because you can, and ignore the comments. They ease up a bit if you wear your hair up; or just persevere until you are known in the area as “the one with the really long hair”.

[TreesOfEternity]

Womens liberation movement is there so you can wear your hair however you want without receiving nasty coments from strangers.

To me, it's a matter of fashion. Designers and companies dictate what is fashionable and everyone believes that this is the way to go to be a part of socierty, and they try to make the rest of us comform as well.

In this time there is what they call "fast fashion" and long hair is a long term commitment. Long hair won't become fashionable because if they don't keep on changing people's habits they won't make that much money out of us. Dyed, over processed, monthly-cutted, destroyed hair gives the hair industry more money than classic hair that you take care of by yourself :)

[LadyArwen]

So an interesting thing I found out a while ago, the beauty standards of any given era tend to be whatever is harder to achieve for everyone who isn’t wealthy. When food is scarce, the beauty goal is to be larger and well-fed. When your society relies on well-tended fields, pale skin is a sign that you have never had to work outside. Soft hands are an indicator that you don’t need to perform manual work. Long hair worn loose or in elaborate styles demonstrated that you were wealthy enough to spend time tending to your hair and probably had servents to dress it for you.

There is also the religious/cultural aspect to consider; long hair was often considered a sign of piety and devotion to whichever god/s you followed. Short hair was a sign of rebellion and/or shame as it was cut off as punishment. Long hair is also an evolutionary sign of good sexual health but that is largely secondary to this conversation.

These days, the beauty standard is for hair to be pretty colours, or to be styled in a way that your natural texture wouldn’t normally allow. Since this requires processing, and time; it is difficult to achieve if you are not wealthy (relatively speaking) and have the time. Since hair doesn’t cope terribly well with processing, long hair is now out of reach for a large portion of the population. As a result, the goal posts for “long hair” have moved up quite dramatically; and few people know anyone with hair longer than the norm for any particular area. Hence the perception that long hair is old-fashioned (in a way, it is), and the comments because you are not behaving according to the beauty standards that you should be.

So grow long because you can, and ignore the comments. They ease up a bit if you wear your hair up; or just persevere until you are known in the area as “the one with the really long hair”.

this makes so much sense! I cannot afford frequent haircuts or unicorn mermaid colored hair. I first started growing it out because I didn't have enough money for frequent haircuts.

[PixieP]

Womens liberation movement is there so you can wear your hair however you want without receiving nasty coments from strangers.
r

Yes! Radical feminism is about everyone; men, women, young, old, thin, fat, be able to wear and look how they wish without judgement from some absurd beauty or gender standards. Because no one else should have a say in how you choose to express yourself.

[lithostoic]

Shorter hair is just what's in fashion. I don't think politics have anything to do with it.

[Aredhel]

I don't think it has anything to do with feminism. You'll find we have many femininists on this forum with hair well beyond TBL or classic. ;) Feminism = screw beauty standards!

Also I don't believe it has anything to do with rejecting beauty either; beauty is completely subjective, most people just think that extremely long hair isn't beautiful, and that shorter hair is... while there are fewer folk who believe the opposite. There's nothing wrong with either opinion. It's just an opinion. Plus fashion and trends are very fluid, and you might just find that in a few years, extremely long hair will be in fashion again.

I think hair is beautiful no matter what you do with it, as long as it's well cared for. I've fallen in love with hairstyles both short (like, chin-length short), and extremely long. :)

[nycelle]

Because styles change, the way we think changes, and what we perceive as beautiful changes as well.
But there's no stigmata here with regards to long hair. People have different opinions on what they like is all. Some just think it's old fashioned, but others think short hair may be too masculine -to each their own.

History, religion or culture will never dictate to me which way my hair should be worn though, and for that I say thank you to feminism.

[Glitch]

For example:
"Long hair looks bad/unhealthy"...well only if it is in bad condition
"wow look at that load of hair"
"You need to get at least a foot cut off"
"After this age you need to get it cut"
"when was the last time you cut it?"
"could I smell it?" no you may not i don't know you


WOW all of those comments really piss me off. Especially the age one! How messed up! It makes me angry that some think that just because a person is older, suddenly they can't wear interesting makeup or cute dresses or have long hair etc. I had a lady sadly tell me she thought she was too old to wear her favorite makeup style. I told her she'd look amazing, and she looked at me like she almost didn't believe me. :(
It was also tough to convince my sweet mother that she's never too old to do the things she loves, including growing out her hair once more <3 Gosh, I will never understand why some people believe we should all start acting like we're dead after hitting a certain age. To hell with that. I know I'll definitely be doing whatever the heck I want with my style when I'm old, and I really hope this media famous and fashion forward generation will also carry on these trends far into the future with them. :)

I'm so sad that some don't live their life to their fullest desires due to certain sickening opinions others have. Just know that many are ignorant and don't even realize how hurtful they're being.


I know the feeling; that it's nice not to feel alone on your growth journey.

Maybe try wearing your hair up more? If you would like to. You don't have to because people are weird. But it will save your hair *and* save you the comments. :flower:

I agree, it's what I would do around these kinds of people.

[softheartedandl]

i've noticed when most people said negative things about my hair it was out of jealousy. like my friend in high school who said "why don't you at least get layers cut in" and then would turn around and complain about how here hair wouldn't grow. or the girl in my college class who i overheard say "her hair is so long, i hate her!"

there are people out there who genuinely don't like long hair or find shorter, processed hair more beautiful, and that's okay, too! but a lot of people say mean things about long hair because you have what they don't/can't have. most people can't manage to grow their hair long because it's either too damaged, they don't have the patience, or they just have bad habits that they don't want to break (like dying or using heat).

(and i totally agree with you on the differences between men and women. i find it very very beautiful as well!)

[Glitch]

i've noticed when most people said negative things about my hair it was out of jealousy. like my friend in high school who said "why don't you at least get layers cut in" and then would turn around and complain about how here hair wouldn't grow. or the girl in my college class who i overheard say "her hair is so long, i hate her!"

there are people out there who genuinely don't like long hair or find shorter, processed hair more beautiful, and that's okay, too! but a lot of people say mean things about long hair because you have what they don't/can't have. most people can't manage to grow their hair long because it's either too damaged, they don't have the patience, or they just have bad habits that they don't want to break (like dying or using heat).

(and i totally agree with you on the differences between men and women. i find it very very beautiful as well!)

Totally agreed. There was once a drop dead gorgeous girl in one my classes, and on a night out with new classmates, I brought up how amazing her hair and makeup was. Everyone agreed. Then, an obviously jealous girl said, "it's all the makeup and products though! I bet she's hideous without it all!" Lol, insecurity at its finest.

[spidermom]

I love wondrous variety - short-short to extra long and everything in-between. Even here (LHC), no reason to extol the virtues of long hair over other hair - there's room for all preferences, and it's o.k. if they change, like mine did. There's also room for opinions other than my own. If I don't agree, I'll be gracious and keep my objections to myself.

[Joules]

Why do people think their opinions are important and not annoying? Especially when it comes to hair?

Listen, I have my opinions, too. Especially when it comes to haircuts and hair coloring. I never really voice them, because I don't think anyone needs to hear them, but when it comes to rude people you need to be rude if you want to get them to leave you alone. I had to give a somewhat rude but honest answer to my mom to stop her from saying things like "why don't you color and heat style your hair? It's not beautiful in braids and buns!" (I wasn't rude to my mom, I was rude about this topic in general).

I've never had any comments about my hair, mostly because it doesn't seem as long as it is due to my cut and everyday hairstyles, but when it starts to look long and anyone dares to comment, I won't be shy with my replies.

Hair length and age is another favourite topic of mine. Like, why? Is there science behind it? Or do we just like to degrade women who aren't 18 anymore and show them they become worthless after a certain age? My mom started gowing her hair out at 48-49, she had a long-ish pixie since her early 20s. She's now 52 and her hair is APL, still she has some second thoughts about whether it's appropriate. Since I joined LHC I've been showing her photos of long-haired ladies who are close to her in age, just to convince her that age doesn't mean anything, if you have hair on your head you can grow it out as long as you want. She starts to really enjoy her curls, and it's sad to me that because of society and its "fashion" it took her so many years to stop fighting her hair and see its beauty, her hair is truly gorgeous: 3a curls, ii/iii, dyed red.


Totally agreed. There was once a drop dead gorgeous girl in one my classes, and on a night out with new classmates, I brought up how amazing her hair and makeup was. Everyone agreed. Then, an obviously jealous girl said, "it's all the makeup and products though! I bet she's hideous without it all!" Lol, insecurity at its finest.

When I was in uni there was a girl in my class with the most gorgeous tailbone length thick dark hair, zero splits, zero taper, zero frizz, just pure silk. It really looked like an expensive wig or photoshop, something that's too beautiful to be real. She also had perfect face, I loved inviting her to be my model when I was doing a makeup course. I never hated her, because I was honest with myself and I realised I just wanted to have her body :D but some girls disliked her. So yeah, there might be an element of jealousy.

[Sarahlabyrinth]

Joules, you can tell your mother that I'm 53 and still growing my hair longer :rollin:

[LadyArwen]

I think it is really interesting that jealousy is what motivates some people.

I remember a girl in high school with the most beautiful hair...and I remember asking her "does it take a lot of time to fix your hair because it is so long?" I was curious and I had super short hair that I styled every day and put hi lights in...honestly I took more time on my hair then than I do now. I honestly kept my hair short for a while during my teens and early 20s, thinking that long hair was more unhealthy...or "what if I get split ends?" So I wanted to keep it short and bouncy.

Little did I know, you can have long and healthy hair too, you just need to learn you to care for it properly...lots of TLC. I just wonder why I thought short hair was healthier than long hair, lol, doesn't make a difference :)

[Joules]

Joules, you can tell your mother that I'm 53 and still growing my hair longer :rollin:

I did! Your pictures were the first ones I showed her! She loved your hair :)

[Luna Starsetta]

Honestly so far Ive only gotten positive comments and a few negative. I use the negative as fuel. I love my hair long. Now yes I see floor length hair and I think wow that's too long for me. Key word for ME. On her I think its stunning. I give everyone equal treatment. On some people short hair looks very flattering. To me knee length is enough I wold stop there.

[Luna Starsetta]

And I would never go shorter then my lower back. I just feel on me its too short. But honestly long hair is so uncommon in my area that I love having it and I can turn any negative into a positive. I got a comment by one of the people I see at the roller rink a lot. She said if your hair gets longer and starts to cover your butt, I'm going to start calling you Rapunzel. My response was a happily go right ahead. Cause I'm proud of my curls my curl texture is finally coming back and I'm so happy for that!

[Alex Lou]

Yes! Radical feminism is about everyone; men, women, young, old, thin, fat, be able to wear and look how they wish without judgement from some absurd beauty or gender standards. Because no one else should have a say in how you choose to express yourself.

Yes, exactly!

[Glitch]

Why do people think their opinions are important and not annoying? Especially when it comes to hair?

Listen, I have my opinions, too. Especially when it comes to haircuts and hair coloring. I never really voice them, because I don't think anyone needs to hear them, but when it comes to rude people you need to be rude if you want to get them to leave you alone. I had to give a somewhat rude but honest answer to my mom to stop her from saying things like "why don't you color and heat style your hair? It's not beautiful in braids and buns!" (I wasn't rude to my mom, I was rude about this topic in general).

I've never had any comments about my hair, mostly because it doesn't seem as long as it is due to my cut and everyday hairstyles, but when it starts to look long and anyone dares to comment, I won't be shy with my replies.

Hair length and age is another favourite topic of mine. Like, why? Is there science behind it? Or do we just like to degrade women who aren't 18 anymore and show them they become worthless after a certain age? My mom started gowing her hair out at 48-49, she had a long-ish pixie since her early 20s. She's now 52 and her hair is APL, still she has some second thoughts about whether it's appropriate. Since I joined LHC I've been showing her photos of long-haired ladies who are close to her in age, just to convince her that age doesn't mean anything, if you have hair on your head you can grow it out as long as you want. She starts to really enjoy her curls, and it's sad to me that because of society and its "fashion" it took her so many years to stop fighting her hair and see its beauty, her hair is truly gorgeous: 3a curls, ii/iii, dyed red.



When I was in uni there was a girl in my class with the most gorgeous tailbone length thick dark hair, zero splits, zero taper, zero frizz, just pure silk. It really looked like an expensive wig or photoshop, something that's too beautiful to be real. She also had perfect face, I loved inviting her to be my model when I was doing a makeup course. I never hated her, because I was honest with myself and I realised I just wanted to have her body :D but some girls disliked her. So yeah, there might be an element of jealousy.

Thank goodness for people like you, who feel admiration towards interesting people rather than bitterness and what not :) As for everything else, well said!

[Joules]

Yes! Radical feminism is about everyone; men, women, young, old, thin, fat, be able to wear and look how they wish without judgement from some absurd beauty or gender standards. Because no one else should have a say in how you choose to express yourself.

Yes, exactly!

You're talking about moderate feminism, peaceful and accepting. Nothing good has ever been called radical. Radical feminists hate everything even remotely stereotypical, they're quite...well, not peaceful at all. I try to not cross paths with them.

That is, of course, my opinion. I've seen quite a lot of radical feminists who shave their heads not because they like shaved head, but because long hair is stereotypically feminine, and being stereotypically feminine is somehow bad.

[LadyArwen]

more interesting ideas. My personal journey (hair growth is a symbol of that) is asking, "what does it mean to be a woman? Are traditional gender roles still valid?" I am a feminine woman who wants a masculine man...and I wonder if returning to a more historical view of womanhood would influence that. I love children, cooking, cleaning, sewing, art, family. Part of me wants to return to a gentler time perhaps...

[pili]

more interesting ideas. My personal journey (hair growth is a symbol of that) is asking, "what does it mean to be a woman? Are traditional gender roles still valid?" I am a feminine woman who wants a masculine man...and I wonder if returning to a more historical view of womanhood would influence that. I love children, cooking, cleaning, sewing, art, family. Part of me wants to return to a gentler time perhaps...
Me too! The problem with radical feminisms is that it threw out the baby with the bathwater. My mother was part of that generation. Feminism meant being as manlike as possible. If a woman chose to stay home, look ultra feminine, then they were somehow setting women back. I think today it has changed. I am a feminist, but I highly value homemaking skills and traditions. They should be lauded and recognized just as much as a PhD or working 9-5. It's about choice.

[Corvana]

more interesting ideas. My personal journey (hair growth is a symbol of that) is asking, "what does it mean to be a woman? Are traditional gender roles still valid?" I am a feminine woman who wants a masculine man...and I wonder if returning to a more historical view of womanhood would influence that. I love children, cooking, cleaning, sewing, art, family. Part of me wants to return to a gentler time perhaps...

I'm more of the mind that it's better to be able to choose what you like! Be that long hair or short, a more "traditional" lifestyle or a more untraditional one, children or none, etc etc. Since everyone is different, having a "one size fits all" society will be incredibly ill-fitting for a large chunk of people, no matter what style that "one size fits all" society falls into.

For me, my hair is just an accessory to be honest with you! Previously it was one that I just dealt with half the time and appreciated the other half. Then I colored it purple (and then pink, and then both!), and loved it, even if the damage was out of this world. And I loved when I had a pixie, and more of an undercut style (where it's very short on the sides and in back, and much longer on top), and a mohawk! And now I'm loving it getting longer, and I hope to love it until it's very long. But as it's my hair, I get to choose if I accept others' opinions on it or not. If I ask for criticism then I'll think on it, if I don't then I'll (do my best to :laugh:) ignore it. Easier said than done, and it's taken me years to get to that point about my appearance. Nothing else, though :laugh:. I'm still sensitive to criticism for literally everything else.

[LadyArwen]

Me too! The problem with radical feminisms is that it threw out the baby with the bathwater. My mother was part of that generation. Feminism meant being as manlike as possible. If a woman chose to stay home, look ultra feminine, then they were somehow setting women back. I think today it has changed. I am a feminist, but I highly value homemaking skills and traditions. They should be lauded and recognized just as much as a PhD or working 9-5. It's about choice.

yes...and I have spent time trying to have a career and be successful...and felt kind of dry...Part of me is surrendering to the fact that a more traditional role may fit me better...so far it has felt really good

[PixieP]

SwordWomanRiona is a radical feminist with almost knee length hair, so... :shrug:

[pili]

SwordWomanRiona is a radical feminist with almost knee length hair, so... :shrug:

I think the term "radical feminist" is different for each generation. The "fight" as it were is not the same for our daughters, mothers and grandmothers. Each generation had something different they were trying to change about how women are viewed.

[enting]

Some people are always going to comment about hair length, or if it's not that, it's something else. I keep my hair put away when around those kinds of people if I'm not feeling up to the comments. It's bunned or bunned and covered. I might then get comments about the covering, but then it's deflecting away from the focus on the hair.

[cjk]

Does anyone have any ideas as to why long hair is more "rare" these days and has a stigma attached to it. I readily admit I am conservative person...and I love the differences between men and women! They are beautiful to me. Is it radical feminism? Womens liberation movement? A rejection of beauty? Would love to hear your ideas!

I'm conservative too! Hello.

Okay, two things. First whether long or short, taking it to an extreme positions you as an outlier. Outliers get all sorts of crap from people who believe they, themselves, are representative of normal.

In the case of long female hair, that means shoulder length, maybe something you can braid, maybe even a nice ponytail...that's normal. But past your waist and brushing your thighs? WEIRDO! Further, you aren't apologizing for it, you're actually EMBRACING being a weirdo, which means you consciously choose to not conform to what they view as normal, which means you might as well be unclean. Ooh, you're an untouchable!

And second, western culture centers around forming the world to OUR desires. It's the core value in our culture. Letting your hair grow, letting it lead you, is the precise opposite of what I just said. You should be forcing your hair to confirm, not the other way around.

Hairspray, curling irons, products, and hours in the chair are required, not to coax, but to reshape your hair into the form you want to impose upon it.

That's "normal." You're not doing that, so you're abnormal!

So you are a weird, abnormal, untouchable. You're surprised they treat you accordingly?

[lottiealice]

I don't label myself as a feminist and I think as far as politics go, hair is really not an important matter. I'm growing mine because I like it aesthetically, am curious as to how long it will actually grow in the first place, and because I quite enjoy the old fashioned style of things. My fashion choices reflect this, I want my hair to as well - I was heavily inspired by photographs of Victorian women with gorgeous knee + length hair. It's just all about personal style and preference. I think my only regret is that I'll now probably never shave my head which is an experience I've always been curious about. :cool:

[LadyArwen]

In the case of long female hair, that means shoulder length, maybe something you can braid, maybe even a nice ponytail...that's normal. But past your waist and brushing your thighs? WEIRDO! Further, you aren't apologizing for it, you're actually EMBRACING being a weirdo, which means you consciously choose to not conform to what they view as normal, which means you might as well be unclean. Ooh, you're an untouchable!

And second, western culture centers around forming the world to OUR desires. It's the core value in our culture. Letting your hair grow, letting it lead you, is the precise opposite of what I just said. You should be forcing your hair to confirm, not the other way around.

Hairspray, curling irons, products, and hours in the chair are required, not to coax, but to reshape your hair into the form you want to impose upon it.

That's "normal." You're not doing that, so you're abnormal!

So you are a weird, abnormal, untouchable. You're surprised they treat you accordingly?

thank you this is what I was getting at...but didn't know! The idea of letting your hair "be" and instead of "doing". Last year I stopped wearing makeup (wear a little concealer) and minty lip balm! And wanted to embrace the way that God made me, plus makeup cost too much money for me too :( now I only do it on special occasions. Makes so much sense! Some people love your hair and wish they could grow it out...and others give you weird looks...and you get this force-field lol!

[Aredhel]

Nothing wrong with being weird! I embrace my weirdness too. I've been called such my entire life because of my unconventional tastes (extremely long hair being one of the many), and I learned to own it... I love being weird!:happydance: People who criticize you for it are just boring. ;)

[Glitch]

Nothing wrong with being weird! I embrace my weirdness too. I've been called such my entire life because of my unconventional tastes (extremely long hair being one of the many), and I learned to own it... I love being weird!:happydance: People who criticize you for it are just boring. ;)

Aww, I agree! I love it. I wouldn't be the free spirited person I am if I always tried to conform :D I especially love visiting places with extreme diversity and tons of freedom to look however you want and be whoever you are without fear of judgment :o It makes the world seem like a much more tolerant and happy planet <3

[nycelle]

Aww, I agree! I love it. I wouldn't be the free spirited person I am if I always tried to conform :D I especially love visiting places with extreme diversity and tons of freedom to look however you want and be whoever you are without fear of judgment :o It makes the world seem like a much more tolerant and happy planet <3

Amen! :agree::agree::beerchug:

[ursaV]

There are a lot of dangerous body trends people go through nowadays, and I feel like it's really reaching a head. As seen with hair, torturing it within an inch of it's life just to conform to whatever color and cut Instagram deems fashionable this week is completely normal. People get waist trainers, fat transfers to their buttocks, and lip fillers to fit in. People would starve themselves to get the "waif" look years back, and before that tease and perm their hair until it fried. There were trends further back in history of course but I don't think we had the technology to rapidly cycle them and do as much damage as we can today. Long hair is a feature that rejects this flippant attitude towards ones' body. As cjk said, it is the mark of a weirdo now to accept what God gave you without alteration. I would consider myself conservative as well, in opinion and appearance. I think having the resolve to just stick to your values when society tells you differently makes people upset because they want to think their opinion has some effect on your actions. I'm glad you're happy with your hair and that you don't let rude comments get to you :o

[Ligeia Noire]

Extremes will call for peoples attention whether we like it or not, if you are a woman and you have your head shaved, people will look, why? Because it is uncommon, if you are a guy and you have hair that reaches your waist people will look for the same reason, if you are a woman or a man and you have hair longer than classic, I am not even going to go to longer than that, people are going to look and maybe even ask you things. That is the way of things, I will look too, I just think people should not comment on it but hey it is a free world and if it is in a polite way, let them. I do not wear my hair down much anymore, most of the times, for privacy, as simple as that because I know it will call up attention onto me.
On days that I am more light hearted coming out of work I take the stick and let it down, it was funny because I did that last week and two guys that were having this fiery discussion just stopped the conversation when I passed by and commented. I laughed a bit, it humors me.
Sometimes, I do it on purpose to see people's reactions, yes I should have studied brains I know.
About why long hair? Because I love it, I am not a feminist, in the slightest, quite the opposite actually because of what it means these days and I do love everything from the old times, from clothing to manners to hair so I might be what they call an old soul ah ah

[shalindra]

I think its the time involved, I do pamper and play with my hair a lot.. I will take an hour to figure out how that girl did that French twisht I saw.. or why don't my braid look like that... My hair tends to be fun to play with.. gave up toys for my hair in m 50's? Well kinda

[LadyArwen]

About why long hair? Because I love it, I am not a feminist, in the slightest, quite the opposite actually because of what it means these days and I do love everything from the old times, from clothing to manners to hair so I might be what they call an old soul ah ah

me too, your hair is amazing. I love being an old soul too...but still having childlike wonder too :)

[MoonRabbit]

I don't know if hair is really considered a beauty standard these day rather than a form of false "self expression" manipulated by what trend is in season. If long hair is so confrontational then why are long hair extensions/wigs still extremely popular? Is fake hair the new natural? I can agree that longer lengths can be uncommon which can spark a surprise or out of the ordinary reaction to others but it is really that important to call it out, demand something to be done to it or else the fate of the fashion universe will collapse and mad panic will engulf the world and it will be the end as we know it...

[Ligeia Noire]

me too, your hair is amazing. I love being an old soul too...but still having childlike wonder too :)

Definitely.

[*Wednesday*]

..Is fake hair the new natural?

I think "fake" is the new natural.

[ursaV]

I think "fake" is the new natural.

Haha, unfortunately! I have a friend that I found out dyes her hair and tans year round. I thought she just had eyelash extensions, but all the fake looks so natural it leaves me wondering what she'd look like without all that. And that's not even on the extreme end. Sometimes I find myself getting insecure from seeing women on the internet, so I have to say to myself that a lot of photoshop and various injections go into making them look like that, or at least to convince us they look like that. :hmm:

[LadyArwen]

Haha, unfortunately! I have a friend that I found out dyes her hair and tans year round. I thought she just had eyelash extensions, but all the fake looks so natural it leaves me wondering what she'd look like without all that. And that's not even on the extreme end. Sometimes I find myself getting insecure from seeing women on the internet, so I have to say to myself that a lot of photoshop and various injections go into making them look like that, or at least to convince us they look like that. :hmm:

I used to do the fake tan thing and lots of makeup...oh goodness it didn't draw people to me it repelled them! A good friend told me once I stopped wearing makeup "I can finally see you!" I guess I must have looked high maintenance or something (which I was). Honestly the best things we can do for our appearance is smile and be kind.

Its so sad our society tells us our skin isn't enough, or hair, or clothes, or figure and that makes us unlovable. It tries to tell us we have to all look like the celebrities...and then they make a lot more money off of us.

[MoonRabbit]

I used to do the fake tan thing and lots of makeup...oh goodness it didn't draw people to me it repelled them! A good friend told me once I stopped wearing makeup "I can finally see you!" I guess I must have looked high maintenance or something (which I was). Honestly the best things we can do for our appearance is smile and be kind.

Its so sad our society tells us our skin isn't enough, or hair, or clothes, or figure and that makes us unlovable. It tries to tell us we have to all look like the celebrities...and then they make a lot more money off of us.

In my school days it was the norm to have straight hair, anything curly, wavy, frizzy or even thick hair was considered different. I still remember the day when my school friend asked me why I don't flat iron my hair. The next day I bought an iron and straightened my hair for the next 10 years. My friend would actually go and get her hair thinned because that was the thing to do in the early 2000's.

This was also the time when being anorexic 80-90 lbs for every body proportion was normal because that is what the back then relevant celebs looked like.

I just wonder why these people think they have the audacity to tell someone to change their style. Would these same people go up and point out every other physical experience that doesn't look like "the new trend" Like "Oh hey stranger just wanted to let you know you don't have an hour glass body shape, so you might want to do something about that." :rolleyes:

At this rate I feel like we will eventually be stepping into the Twilight Zone 'Number 12 Looks Just Like You" episode.

[JadedByEntropy]

this has been a fun thread to read through
So an interesting thing I found out a while ago, the beauty standards of any given era tend to be whatever is harder to achieve for everyone who isn’t wealthy. When food is scarce, the beauty goal is to be larger and well-fed. When your society relies on well-tended fields, pale skin is a sign that you have never had to work outside. Soft hands are an indicator that you don’t need to perform manual work. Long hair worn loose or in elaborate styles demonstrated that you were wealthy enough to spend time tending to your hair and probably had servents to dress it for you.
...
So grow long because you can, and ignore the comments. They ease up a bit if you wear your hair up; or just persevere until you are known in the area as “the one with the really long hair”.
this has made my life so much easier. after some point around getting close to sitting on it people giving up yelling at you about your hair. it no longer looks accidentally long or forgotten about. not that i want or need to be reminded to cut it.


i've noticed when most people said negative things about my hair it was out of jealousy. like my friend in high school who said "why don't you at least get layers cut in" and then would turn around and complain about how here hair wouldn't grow. or the girl in my college class who i overheard say "her hair is so long, i hate her!"

there are people out there who genuinely don't like long hair or find shorter, processed hair more beautiful, and that's okay, too! but a lot of people say mean things about long hair because you have what they don't/can't have. most people can't manage to grow their hair long because it's either too damaged, they don't have the patience, or they just have bad habits that they don't want to break (like dying or using heat).

(and i totally agree with you on the differences between men and women. i find it very very beautiful as well!)

yesssss! i have a friend who turned into this. she even attacked my HEIGHT too. can't help if i'm a foot taller and still manage to have longer hair...


more interesting ideas. My personal journey (hair growth is a symbol of that) is asking, "what does it mean to be a woman? Are traditional gender roles still valid?" I am a feminine woman who wants a masculine man...and I wonder if returning to a more historical view of womanhood would influence that. I love children, cooking, cleaning, sewing, art, family. Part of me wants to return to a gentler time perhaps...

im under that same conclusion. a masculine man is typically looking for a soft feminine counterpart. i will not give up my strength. [luckily toned and fitness is "in" at the moment lol] but i also know i can be just as strong on the inside as i am on the outside by knowing when to be soft. "intoxicatingly feminine" is the phrase my friend uses and he is very masculine. it has since become my goal. i grew up hating my girly side so it was revolutionary.


Nothing wrong with being weird! I embrace my weirdness too. I've been called such my entire life because of my unconventional tastes (extremely long hair being one of the many), and I learned to own it... I love being weird!:happydance: People who criticize you for it are just boring. ;)
Love the weird!

[torosaurus]

I'm a little dismayed by the idea that some members hold here; that if you have long hair or conform to traditional gender roles, you cannot be feminist. I feel like that can't be further from the truth.
If you choose not to be feminist, that's okay. I understand why you may feel like you want to distance yourself from the stereotype that is perpetrated about feminists. However, I just want to state that feminism isn't about limiting women's choices, but encouraging them. I think it's about improving the quality of life of women worldwide.

I love sewing, cooking, embroidery, makeup, and baking. I love historical fashion and I would wear a corset every day if I had the patience for it. Long hair is an aesthetic quality for me personally, mostly because of my obsession with history in general. However, none of these things mean I'm not a feminist.
Supporting each other is important; I think we would all do well to remember that just because you are in a position where you have the ability to choose between being a homemaker or having a career (or doing both!), doesn't mean every woman is able to. I hope that we can all work toward living in a world where we help and encourage each other. <3

[Ligeia Noire]

That was actually my view and I completely agree with you. The problem is that that's not what I see around and that's not the norm. Specially living in the USA. Back in Europe specially Southern countries common sense still prevails. When what's being held and passed around is to hate men, all men going to take advantagr of you and are bla bla bla and you are a victim of patriarchy if you wear heels or have long hair or wear skirts or don't look all rough and are always looking for conflict. Time and time again I saw and heard that, that I wholeheartedly refuse to be associated with movements that look for divergence and to divide. Unfortunately the majority these days are not homemakers, corset wearing, long haired people but brainwashed hateful brats... not that you need to be these things. People can be whatever they want to. I think most of it could be blamed on certain universities and media but hey I am not here to create havoc but to explain my position since I was one of the people that mentioned not being a feminist.

[TreesOfEternity]

Are you guys from the US? I am not and all this perspectives sound so strange viewed from other countries, sounds like everything is black or white there

[neko_kawaii]

That was actually my view and I completely agree with you. The problem is that that's not what I see around and that's not the norm. Specially living in the USA. Back in Europe specially Southern countries common sense still prevails. When what's being held and passed around is to hate men, all men going to take advantagr of you and are bla bla bla and you are a victim of patriarchy if you wear heels or have long hair or wear skirts or don't look all rough and are always looking for conflict. Time and time again I saw and heard that, that I wholeheartedly refuse to be associated with movements that look for divergence and to divide. Unfortunately the majority these days are not homemakers, corset wearing, long haired people but brainwashed hateful brats... not that you need to be these things. People can be whatever they want to. I think most of it could be blamed on certain universities and media but hey I am not here to create havoc but to explain my position since I was one of the people that mentioned not being a feminist.

I suppose I’m just lucky never to have encountered that flavor of feminism (outside of the “I’m not a feminist because they hate men” posts I’ve seen here) in the US.

[EdG]

The reason why long hair is no longer depicted as desirable is commercialism.

Advertisers target a generic type of person who anyone could emulate by buying their product.

Long hair is individual and unique - the exact opposite of what advertisers want.

We can see through the commercial interests. :)

BTW, hair is not a reliable differentiator between women and men. Every once in a while, someone new to the LHC gets surprised. ;)
Ed

[cjk]

Deleted due to error from clipboard.

[Sarahlabyrinth]

The reason why long hair is no longer depicted as desirable is commercialism.

Advertisers target a generic type of person who anyone could emulate by buying their product.

Long hair is individual and unique - the exact opposite of what advertisers want.

We can see through the commercial interests. :)

BTW, hair is not a reliable differentiator between women and men. Every once in a while, someone new to the LHC gets surprised. ;)
Ed

I have been surprised a few times :p

[Joules]

That was actually my view and I completely agree with you. The problem is that that's not what I see around and that's not the norm. Specially living in the USA. Back in Europe specially Southern countries common sense still prevails. When what's being held and passed around is to hate men, all men going to take advantagr of you and are bla bla bla and you are a victim of patriarchy if you wear heels or have long hair or wear skirts or don't look all rough and are always looking for conflict. Time and time again I saw and heard that, that I wholeheartedly refuse to be associated with movements that look for divergence and to divide. Unfortunately the majority these days are not homemakers, corset wearing, long haired people but brainwashed hateful brats... not that you need to be these things. People can be whatever they want to. I think most of it could be blamed on certain universities and media but hey I am not here to create havoc but to explain my position since I was one of the people that mentioned not being a feminist.

This is exactly the kind of feminism I see in Russia. It's terrifying, to be honest, because I see them all the time, and I see their stories about horrible animals with penises, and it makes my anxious butt even more anxious and afraid of relationships.

Russia is really interesting in terms of feminism, really. Historically, from the moment USSR was created back in 1922, women and men were completely equal. Communism and such. So when US girls were fighting for their rights, USSR women were working at factories together with men. There were certain professions that were more masculine than feminine and women tended to stay away from them, but in general, everything was equal. Women even fought alongside men in WW2 (google "Night Witches"). So there was never any inequality in that sense, and there's technically no inequality in our mentality. The only "inequality" that can be seen is things like "don't say bad words, you're a girl" and "cut your hair, you're a boy", but things like that are, in my opinion, way too insignificant to start a whole movement against them.

Oh, and the victim blaming when it comes to sexual harrassment and assault, yes, it's very much prevalent. But third-wave radical feminism does a great deal of nothing to eliminate it, in my opinion. These idiots are fighting for hair and clothes.

[Margarita]

Society also has a role on this. Its the standrards that change from time to time. I guess long hair were consider a ****** in the past so thats why medieval women had long hair. This is what i think of. I'll give you a small example, you know obesity was considered 'sexy' in Renaissance? Because people were not aware of such a healthy diet, now, you can lose weight even with "technology". Its also how some people view beauty, some in long hair, some in short hair, some on plump bodies, some on smal breasts.

[Joules]

Margarita, there's actually a science behind obesity being sexy! Men tend to prefer bigger women when times are scarce (when the majority of the population is starving, fat is equal to gold). If you look at poor regions of the world, this theory becomes very obvious. In some places force-feeding girls to make them fat is a thing, they say "no one's gonna marry her if she's skinny".

[GrowlingCupcake]

That was actually my view and I completely agree with you. The problem is that that's not what I see around and that's not the norm. Specially living in the USA. Back in Europe specially Southern countries common sense still prevails. When what's being held and passed around is to hate men, all men going to take advantagr of you and are bla bla bla and you are a victim of patriarchy if you wear heels or have long hair or wear skirts or don't look all rough and are always looking for conflict. Time and time again I saw and heard that, that I wholeheartedly refuse to be associated with movements that look for divergence and to divide. Unfortunately the majority these days are not homemakers, corset wearing, long haired people but brainwashed hateful brats... not that you need to be these things. People can be whatever they want to. I think most of it could be blamed on certain universities and media but hey I am not here to create havoc but to explain my position since I was one of the people that mentioned not being a feminist.

I have to agree with neko_kawaii; I have not met a feminist in the US who actually has those views. All of the feminists I have met have been strongly in favour of true equal rights, and choice for everyone. I have met several non-feminists who say that is what feminism is about, though. I could not tell you whether or not they have actually met such feminists, but they certainly believe that is what feminism means. Please note, I am not in any way including you in that grouping; I do not doubt the veracity of your statements :)

Personally, I do not call myself a feminist but an egalitarian but my beliefs follow what I consider 'pure feminism': equality for all regardless of gender/sex (and ethnicity/race/etc. but that does not apply to this topic!).


Society also has a role on this. Its the standrards that change from time to time. I guess long hair were consider a ****** in the past so thats why medieval women had long hair. This is what i think of. I'll give you a small example, you know obesity was considered 'sexy' in Renaissance? Because people were not aware of such a healthy diet, now, you can lose weight even with "technology". Its also how some people view beauty, some in long hair, some in short hair, some on plump bodies, some on smal breasts.

Actually it's more to do with wealth; obese women or women with longer hair were not likely to have been poor. For instance, pale skin used to be valued in many societies as it meant the woman did not have to work. Now, with limitations on time due to work, travel due to money/work, etc. being tanned - especially in winter - is considered more attractive as it is a sign of potential wealth.

[TreesOfEternity]

This is exactly the kind of feminism I see in Russia. It's terrifying, to be honest, because I see them all the time, and I see their stories about horrible animals with penises, and it makes my anxious butt even more anxious and afraid of relationships.

Russia is really interesting in terms of feminism, really. Historically, from the moment USSR was created back in 1922, women and men were completely equal. Communism and such. So when US girls were fighting for their rights, USSR women were working at factories together with men. There were certain professions that were more masculine than feminine and women tended to stay away from them, but in general, everything was equal. Women even fought alongside men in WW2 (google "Night Witches"). So there was never any inequality in that sense, and there's technically no inequality in our mentality. The only "inequality" that can be seen is things like "don't say bad words, you're a girl" and "cut your hair, you're a boy", but things like that are, in my opinion, way too insignificant to start a whole movement against them.

Oh, and the victim blaming when it comes to sexual harrassment and assault, yes, it's very much prevalent. But third-wave radical feminism does a great deal of nothing to eliminate it, in my opinion. These idiots are fighting for hair and clothes.

I've been reading lately about the cossacks and it was a really interesting society, I really admire it, really egalitarian between men and women as well.

I like to call myself a feminist because I don't want that kind of brats to make the term their own, although it seems to be a dificult task. Sexual harrassment is a real problem in my country. Assault, rape and harrassment are really prevalent and victims are always blamed by the great public and the media. This year aleady a lot of cases have been reported and it's scary but we must make everybody know we are not afraid. I don't blame a gender, I blame how this society has been constructed and believe we have to break it and rebuild it again, together as society.

[pili]

Like Ligeia Noire, I have seen radical feminists who just plain hate men. And as I said before, feminism is a term which has a different meaning for each generation. That can cause confusion among those discussing it's meaning.

Back to the topic though, I live in a Uber liberal part of the US (the Bay Area). Here long hair, even super long, is not seen as unusual, nor is it something others are going to force their opinions on others about. You see both Pentecostal women and hippie women with classic+ hair. Then again, I tend to see more women who go without make-up and "done" hair here. Ed is right. It is about commercialism. Some places are more conforming than others.

[nycelle]

I am really surprised to see so many hateful sounding posts about women who fought for equality just so we can have the right to make choices.

Who cares if you don't agree with some of their personal views, that doesn't make what they stand, and fight for any less relevant.

And really communism caused equality in the USSR long before the US had it?? There is just so much wrong with that statement, and trying to justify any kind of good that came out of one of the most corrupt, and abhorrent political system to have existed.

Human rights in the USSR regardless of the sex never existed. I literally laughed out loud.

ETA: And the truth is, they were never considered equals. Men made more, and held all the important political positions. Women were always second class citizens in the USSR.

[Ligeia Noire]

Yup those radical feminists just give the movement a bad name and all the rep they have in the media just makes things worse. I don't like to be associated with that kind of bs. I have absolutely nothing against feminism? How could I? But I had enough of tge bad kind to in no way wanting to be labeled as one because I am for humans to be equal regardless of their gender. Not "the women can do no wrong if they do is the patriarchy's fault".

Back to topic long hair is awesome!

Edit- I have never said the radicals invalidated what the feminists have achieved for all of us. I said and will say again the movement has been corrupted and I do not want to be labeled as a feminist wether you agree or not with me, it's not important. Also I studied Russian and dated a Russian guy and know for a fact that in the Soviet times things were not as portrayed by the West. It was actually pretty good and equal and many folks there miss it. As when the regime broke a lot of the riches were taken by oligarchs and corrupts. Again I wil believe a Russian any day in comparison to western media. I believe Joules being Russian might know better than us through her parents and such what was going on in HER country.

[pili]

Yup those radical feminists just give the movement a bad name and all the rep they have in the media just makes things worse. I don't like to be associated with that kind of bs. I have absolutely nothing against feminism? How could I? But I had enough of tge bad kind to in no way wanting to be labeled as one because I am for humans to be equal regardless of their gender. Not "the women can do no wrong if they do is the patriarchy's fault".

Back to topic long hair is awesome!

Edit- I have never said the radicals invalidated what the feminists have achieved for all of us. I said and will say again the movement has been corrupted and I do not want to be labeled as a feminist wether you agree or not with me, it's not important. Also I studied Russian and dated a Russian guy and know for a fact that in the Soviet times things were not as portrayed by the West. It was actually pretty good and equal and many folks there miss it. As when the regime broke a lot of the riches were taken by oligarchs and corrupts. Again I wil believe a Russian any day in comparison to western media. I believe Joules being Russian might know better than us through her parents and such what was going on in HER country.

Exactly this. Also, just because other people have had bad experiences, bad enough to not want to be associated with an extreme of a group, does not make it "hateful." It is their experience and they are entitled to their opinions and feelings. Looking at things too black and white is blinding yourself. There are shades of grey in feminism. Each woman's experience with men and other women is different. Each woman matters. Please do not dismiss any woman's opinion because you do not agree with it. That is exactly the behavior that turns women off about radical feminism. Totally my opinion. I own my words.

[Joules]

And really communism caused equality in the USSR long before the US had it?? There is just so much wrong with that statement, and trying to justify any kind of good that came out of one of the most corrupt, and abhorrent political system to have existed.

Human rights in the USSR regardless of the sex never existed. I literally laughed out loud.

ETA: And the truth is, they were never considered equals. Men made more, and held all the important political positions. Women were always second class citizens in the USSR.

Thanks for enlightening me on the topic of my country's history.

[nycelle]

I am Russian.

Let's not create a history that didn't exist.

[Ligeia Noire]

Well she is Russian too an both my ex boyfriend and Russian teacher had exactly the same opinion and told the same thing Joules did. So I guess there are different opinions and different perspectives on the same subject. The truth will always lie in the middle.
Again Pili you are right on.
Let's no dismiss opinions just because we don't agree with a certain point of view.

[nycelle]

@Pili I'm not disparaging anyone's opinion in regards to feminism. I was surprised that there were such hateful words used to describe feminists. My entire point was, that it's because of them, that we have the rights we do, regardless of what their personal opinions are on nominal things.

@Ligeia Noire your ex's opinion was what exactly? That communism in Russia was good? That women were equal to men there?
My grandmother was a teacher there for 33 years. Her opinion, as do the facts differ.

The idea of a communist society might be wonderful, I mean who doesn't want a euphoric world where we're all equal...
But as humans, we will never achieve it.

Just look at this thread and how women are disparaging other women for differing opinions, and then ask me to understand the very same thing ( that we all have different opinions.)

I may be blunt, but I don't go off on someone for their life choice whether or not I agree with it personally. I will however speak up in person, or on-line, when someone tries to point out a virtue in a failed political system, that resulted in millions dying, and the rest providing cheap or free labor under the guise of "we're all equal."

[EdG]

Back to the topic though, I live in a Uber liberal part of the US (the Bay Area). Here long hair, even super long, is not seen as unusual, nor is it something others are going to force their opinions on others about. You see both Pentecostal women and hippie women with classic+ hair. Then again, I tend to see more women who go without make-up and "done" hair here. Ed is right. It is about commercialism. Some places are more conforming than others.Thanks.

We really are being manipulated by commercial interests into being the perfect consumers. The manipulation is so pervasive that we often don't realize it.
Ed

[nycelle]

NYC is also liberal and most people don't take a second look at anyone. But interestingly enough, I don't see many long hairs here. You'll see young girls (teens) with hair down to their waist, but that's it.

No one here looks twice though or makes comments on anything usually. Pretty much anything goes with regards to personal style/hair.

[MoonRabbit]

@Pili I'm not disparaging anyone's opinion in regards to feminism. I was surprised that there were such hateful words used to describe feminists. My entire point was, that it's because of them, that we have the rights we do, regardless of what their personal opinions are on nominal things.

@Ligeia Noire your ex's opinion was what exactly? That communism in Russia was good? That women were equal to men there?
My grandmother was a teacher there for 33 years. Her opinion, as do the facts differ.

The idea of a communist society might be wonderful, I mean who doesn't want a euphoric world where we're all equal...
But as humans, we will never achieve it.

Just look at this thread and how women are disparaging other women for differing opinions, and then ask me to understand the very same thing ( that we all have different opinions.)

I may be blunt, but I don't go off on someone for their life choice whether or not I agree with it personally. I will however speak up in person, or on-line, when someone tries to point out a virtue in a failed political system, that resulted in millions dying, and the rest providing cheap or free labor under the guise of "we're all equal."

Maybe we are interpreting some posts differently but I personally don't think anyone has said anything hateful about feminism. There are two types of feminist groups . One that fights for all lives and the other that only fights for women while bashing all men, and to me they come off as a hate group that is trying to divide. No matter how much one person tries to change something for the better, there will always be someone else taking the act too far. You give them an inch and they want the whole mile and they will say and do anything to get it, even if they have to hurt the cause in the process.

The term feminism has become tainted, which is why they have coined a nickname for these types of feminists ( I won't mention it here because I do not want to offend anyone with that word).

[pili]

Maybe we are interpreting some posts differently but I personally don't think anyone has said anything hateful about feminism. There are two types of feminist groups . One that fights for all lives and the other that only fights for women while bashing all men, and to me they come off as a hate group that is trying to divide. No matter how much one person tries to change something for the better, there will always be someone else taking the act too far. You give them an inch and they want the whole mile and they will say and do anything to get it, even if they have to hurt the cause in the process.

The term feminism has become tainted, which is why they have coined a nickname for these types of feminists ( I won't mention it here because I do not want to offend anyone with that word).
You said it perfectly. I was getting heated, so I refrained from saying anything. Nothing on this thread was said hatefully. A difference of opinion or experience is not hateful.

[Joules]

I may be blunt, but I don't go off on someone for their life choice whether or not I agree with it personally. I will however speak up in person, or on-line, when someone tries to point out a virtue in a failed political system, that resulted in millions dying, and the rest providing cheap or free labor under the guise of "we're all equal."

I honestly don't know where your grandmother got the idea of cheap free labor. My grandparents from both sides managed to built houses for themselves and bring up multiple children, sometimes supporting them even after they turned 18. They weren't even elite, they were a kindergarten teacher, a grape picker on a wine factory, and two accountants. Maybe your grandmother lived in an empoverished region, still it doesn't mean everything was as bad.

Also, I think it's worth saying that I'm not a fan of the Soviet Union. In no way in hell would I want to live behind the iron curtain. I know my history, I have a degree in politics, I had plenty of time and opportunities to form my own opinion. I'm a huge fan of some of its principles that we still very much enjoy today, like free heatlhcare and free education (both used to be way better than they are now, but still). And yes, feminism included, I've never heard anything from my grandmothers about women being second-class citizen. My mother and aunts were brought up to be strong and independent, my father and uncles were brought up to be respectful.

[nycelle]

Maybe we are interpreting some posts differently but I personally don't think anyone has said anything hateful about feminism. There are two types of feminist groups . One that fights for all lives and the other that only fights for women while bashing all men, and to me they come off as a hate group that is trying to divide. No matter how much one person tries to change something for the better, there will always be someone else taking the act too far. You give them an inch and they want the whole mile and they will say and do anything to get it, even if they have to hurt the cause in the process.

The term feminism has become tainted, which is why they have coined a nickname for these types of feminists ( I won't mention it here because I do not want to offend anyone with that word).

I think we are interpreting them differently. For instance, when I saw words like "hateful brats" @ligeia noire, to describe people, I took offense.

Prior to those comments, I stayed out of this thread mostly. I think I had one post on the first page?

I do though see your points in regards to feminism, and don't necessarily disagree with some things.

But like I said earlier, my issue is when it comes to insulting a group because you disagree, or changing history to make a point.

And calling people hateful brats, or saying women were equal with men in Soviet Russia, well one I rolled my eyes at at first, but the other touched a deeper issue that's part of my history.

@Ligeia Noire - Did you really aks why some people want communism back if it was so bad? Really? Didn't you say you took Russian history classes? Don't you know anything about how the Soviet Union literally collapsed over night? How it left an older generation with vouchers they didn't know what to do with, and completely penniless? Of course some would want it back! Having a little bit is still better than having nothing.

@Joules - I only brought up my grandmother because Ligeia Noire brought up how her ex was a teacher. It had absolutely no relevance, just like her ex doesn't. I shouldn't of played into "who has the better credentials" game.

I am happy to read that your family had it as well as they did there. My mother's were fine too, my father's not so much.
But just getting by doesn't mean life as good. And just getting by was the norm in the USSR unless you were part of the elite.

Regarding free labor- labor camps were part of life there. We've already gone so OT that it would be too much to go into that aspect of it now. But even children were required to spend part of their summer working on farms under the pretense of it builds solidarity. It was a requirement, not a choice, and a way to brainwash the youth.

But regardless of all that, women and men were never equal. There were very few women in politics, or any position of importance. Sure they preached equality, but it never existed.

You sound like a nice young lady, and I'm sure we're coming at it from two very different view points. But my posts are based on the history, not my opinion.

With all that said, it's a long holiday weekend here and I have guests up so can't really spend more time reading and replying. I'll check back Monday night though..lol

Hope everyone's having a great weekend.

[Joules]

@Ligeia Noire - Did you really aks why some people want communism back if it was so bad? Really? Didn't you say you took Russian history classes? Don't you know anything about how the Soviet Union literally collapsed over night? How it left an older generation with vouchers they didn't know what to do with, and completely penniless? Of course some would want it back! Having a little bit is still better than having nothing.

@Joules - I only brought up my grandmother because Ligeia Noire brought up how her ex was a teacher. It had absolutely no relevance, just like her ex doesn't. I shouldn't of played into "who has the better credentials" game.

I am happy to read that your family had it as well as they did there. My mother's were fine too, my father's not so much.
But just getting by doesn't mean life as good. And just getting by was the norm in the USSR unless you were part of the elite.

Regarding free labor- labor camps were part of life there. We've already gone so OT that it would be too much to go into that aspect of it now. But even children were required to spend part of their summer working on farms under the pretense of it builds solidarity. It was a requirement, not a choice, and a way to brainwash the youth.


Soviet Union collapsed overnight because the person who was in power wanted it to collapse (plus some foreign political aspects, about which Zbigniew Brzhezinski wrote in "the grand chessboard"). And then yes, all hell broke loose. I don't know how people survived the 90s, how some of them even had the courage to have kids. But again, it wasn't exactly the fault of then-already-dead Soviet Union.

As for getting by - aren't most Americans just "getting by"? I'm hearing a lot about working two jobs and being on a budget. Most of the world is just getting by and struggling, at least USSR had free healthcare, free education and free housing if you worked certain jobs (my mom worked in tax service and she got an apartment for free, it was her own, not on mortgage or rent, like a gift). Also summer camps for kids were free, kindergarten, sanatoriums for people working at factories/in harmful conditions, etc. People didn't have to worry about a ton of things. Again, I was born a few years after the USSR collapsed, and I wouldn't really want to live in communism, but there are certain things I would like our government to borrow from that time.

Do you know exactly how much of their summer children had to spend working on farms? I just asked my parents: it was a couple of hours a day for one or two weeks. I had this in my school, too, just a couple of hours for one or two weeks. It wasn't even on a farm, we just cleaned classrooms, swept floors, watered plants, hang out with friends (you could come at any day you want) not a big deal at all. If you had medical issues, you could bring a medical certificate and no one would ever make you do anything. Labor camps for prisoners are a completely different thing, it's baffling to me that you put these two things together (also, at least prisoners in the USSR did something useful, instead of sitting on their asses in jail cells eating away taxpayer money). I don't know where you got the unformation on USSR from, but this sourse doesn't seem very credible.

[Ligeia Noire]

@Pili I'm not disparaging anyone's opinion in regards to feminism. I was surprised that there were such hateful words used to describe feminists. My entire point was, that it's because of them, that we have the rights we do, regardless of what their personal opinions are on nominal things.

@Ligeia Noire your ex's opinion was what exactly? That communism in Russia was good? That women were equal to men there?
My grandmother was a teacher there for 33 years. Her opinion, as do the facts differ.

The idea of a communist society might be wonderful, I mean who doesn't want a euphoric world where we're all equal...
But as humans, we will never achieve it.

Just look at this thread and how women are disparaging other women for differing opinions, and then ask me to understand the very same thing ( that we all have different opinions.)

I may be blunt, but I don't go off on someone for their life choice whether or not I agree with it personally. I will however speak up in person, or on-line, when someone tries to point out a virtue in a failed political system, that resulted in millions dying, and the rest providing cheap or free labor under the guise of "we're all equal."

Well how many people have died in all these so called middle east oil exploitation wars? Guess we never really progressed much from dictatorial regimes have we? Capitalism is just a fascist regime in disguise.


I think we are interpreting them differently. For instance, when I saw words like "hateful brats" @ligeia noire, to describe people, I took offense.

Prior to those comments, I stayed out of this thread mostly. I think I had one post on the first page?

I do though see your points in regards to feminism, and don't necessarily disagree with some things.

But like I said earlier, my issue is when it comes to insulting a group because you disagree, or changing history to make a point.

And calling people hateful brats, or saying women were equal with men in Soviet Russia, well one I rolled my eyes at at first, but the other touched a deeper issue that's part of my history.

@Ligeia Noire - Did you really aks why some people want communism back if it was so bad? Really? Didn't you say you took Russian history classes? Don't you know anything about how the Soviet Union literally collapsed over night? How it left an older generation with vouchers they didn't know what to do with, and completely penniless? Of course some would want it back! Having a little bit is still better than having nothing.

@Joules - I only brought up my grandmother because Ligeia Noire brought up how her ex was a teacher. It had absolutely no relevance, just like her ex doesn't. I shouldn't of played into "who has the better credentials" game.

I am happy to read that your family had it as well as they did there. My mother's were fine too, my father's not so much.
But just getting by doesn't mean life as good. And just getting by was the norm in the USSR unless you were part of the elite.

Regarding free labor- labor camps were part of life there. We've already gone so OT that it would be too much to go into that aspect of it now. But even children were required to spend part of their summer working on farms under the pretense of it builds solidarity. It was a requirement, not a choice, and a way to brainwash the youth.

But regardless of all that, women and men were never equal. There were very few women in politics, or any position of importance. Sure they preached equality, but it never existed.

You sound like a nice young lady, and I'm sure we're coming at it from two very different view points. But my posts are based on the history, not my opinion.

With all that said, it's a long holiday weekend here and I have guests up so can't really spend more time reading and replying. I'll check back Monday night though..lol

Hope everyone's having a great weekend.

Well, I called hateful brats to this new wave of feminists that hate men and hate women that do not hate men, or choose to be homemakers or to have kids, could not possibly be their choice but society and patriarchy and yada yada and I will say it again, they are nothing but hateful brats, going around and spoil the movement and making people like myself wanting nothing but distance from it.... These days you cannot call a bull a bull even if it is a bull because people get offended.

And you don't need to insult me by saying I do not know History, I did not say I studied Russian History, you jumped to the conclusion to make up your argument stronger "oh wow she studied it and knows nothing about it", I said I studied Russian as in Russian Language classes and my Teacher was an older lady that lived through the soviet period, my ex boyfriend is Russian and his mom is a lawyer that lived through it too and he remembered some of it too, I do not know if you were raised in Russia or not but I was not in a competition like you accused me of, I was simply backing what Joules said with more opinions, from people that live there and lived through it. as My teacher, my ex and his mom mentioned countless times the same thing. And language classes always come with a bit of culture background.
And where in hell did I say they wanted the regime back?
They pointed out lots of good things in it, like, yes equality, the healthcare, the housing, the grocery stores, the level of corruption and the lower level of vandalism and violence in the streets, in no way does that dismiss the deaths, the violence and the fact that it kept its doors shut but I also learnt that there was so much more to it than the Gulags that I was blown away, since my education on it was quite one sided. My country had a dictatorship for almost 50 years and still to this day people point out how things were different, do they want the regime back, clearly they don't, but lots of things were done better than what they are today. And that is what they miss.
Not going to dwell on it any longer as my position towards modern feminism stands whether people feel triggered by it or not.

[Sarahlabyrinth]

Let's get back to the original topic.

[pili]

Let's get back to the original topic.

Yes, lets.

Modern VS. Historical is maybe too vague? There were times during the Regency era when short hair was in, and there were times during the Victorian era when long hair was in. Someone already mentioned that what we perceive as medieval hair (long and fairytaled) was more a portrail of the aristocracy, who could afford the time and energy on long, flowing locks. Modern hair is more a reflection of women (and men) who can afford the expensive upkeep of salon visits and treatments. Even super long hair that meets with social approval is likely to be extensions, again expensive and not something for the masses to have, just to envy.

[TreesOfEternity]

That’s a good point, just like clothes or beauty standards it looks like hair has been used to differenciate (sp?) upper and lower classes through history.
In the 20s really short hair was fashionable as well and it was considered femenine.
Nowadays I feel processed hair is in, and natural hair is not really apreciated, just like Pili said it reflects who can afford weekly visits to the hairdresser and who can’t.

[lapushka]

My mom is a feminist. She's been married 49 years (50 next year August). She's had a full career as a maritime clerk & customs declaration officer and retired in the highest pay grade possible. My dad never complained. Still, she was the one who was mainly in charge of the household, since back then you "could" have a career, if you also didn't neglect your household. That was the view taken on women back then. My dad has always been good helping out as much as he could, but my dad is quite macho and old-fashioned. Still, they have made it work, and I love that. My dad didn't tolerate her having a job, neither did he give his permission. My mom just "took" what was rightfully hers to take. And my dad just accepted it; he had no choice in the matter. ;)

I don't much like "radical" feminism either, but I have yet to come across it. I have always known it to be about true equality. The way it should be, IMMHO.

[cjk]

And the vast majority support true equality. It is easily supportable.

The problem is that when a pendulum swings, starting at one extreme, it invariably swings to the other extreme before finding that point of equilibrium. I don't care if a firefighter is a man, a woman, or any of the 37 make-believe genders in California. Just get the burning beam off my legs.

But don't change the requirements for the job to accommodate women.

Equality needs to be equal. You can't be treated as special snowflakes, delicate and precious, while demanding that others consider you equal.

As someone who has encountered stupid feminists, one even became irate because I politely held a door for her, my opinion towards the reality of feminism is quite different than my support of the theory.

When entitled man-hating super-bitch is the best description available, it's time to smack them down.

[pili]

Let's get back to the original topic.

Again, please.

[Cybercat]

In our area long hair seems more the norm. We're in a small town with alot of hair dressers but many are single operators or with two others. No big salon with 10 or more stylists here. Heavy religious area and low income too.

Personally I don't like real short hair​ on Me. For others that's fine but I have only done a pixie once or twice when a kids and hated it. I have a round face so long hair just looks better on me. Never had issues taking care of it.
But for comments most recent I dyed my hair Burgandy and it had alot of purple in it. I loved that color and many others did too but one. I was in line and a old bitty made a comment about I guess any color goes these days in a rude voice. I turned around and smiled at her real big. I am not a light weight but I also do not look my age at all.
Her on the other hand was very age for her age. Made a point with cashier to mention my age, would have loved to see her face when she heard that number which was probably closer to her than she would have thought. My hair at time was above bra strap, she had short above shoulder. Funny how folks show their envious.

[pili]

In our area long hair seems more the norm. We're in a small town with alot of hair dressers but many are single operators or with two others. No big salon with 10 or more stylists here. Heavy religious area and low income too.

Personally I don't like real short hair​ on Me. For others that's fine but I have only done a pixie once or twice when a kids and hated it. I have a round face so long hair just looks better on me. Never had issues taking care of it.
But for comments most recent I dyed my hair Burgandy and it had alot of purple in it. I loved that color and many others did too but one. I was in line and a old bitty made a comment about I guess any color goes these days in a rude voice. I turned around and smiled at her real big. I am not a light weight but I also do not look my age at all.
Her on the other hand was very age for her age. Made a point with cashier to mention my age, would have loved to see her face when she heard that number which was probably closer to her than she would have thought. My hair at time was above bra strap, she had short above shoulder. Funny how folks show their envious.
Yeah, it probably was envy.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I also think some of the rudeness we see today is more with the way good manners are perceived. There seems to be a prevailing attitude that when a person is telling you that you have stepped outside of the acceptable cultural norm, that they are doing you a favor. The attitude of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." does not seem to apply. Instead there is the...self righteous?...feeling I get from people who try to box everyone in to their perception of how things should be. Someone with really long hair or short hair or dyed hair has violated the rigid rules the commenter has created and they lack a filter to keep from saying something. They think their rudeness is justified because they are trying to correct the "worse" violation the other person committed with having different hair.

[Simsy]

Yeah, it probably was envy.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I also think some of the rudeness we see today is more with the way good manners are perceived. There seems to be a prevailing attitude that when a person is telling you that you have stepped outside of the acceptable cultural norm, that they are doing you a favor. The attitude of "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." does not seem to apply. Instead there is the...self righteous?...feeling I get from people who try to box everyone in to their perception of how things should be. Someone with really long hair or short hair or dyed hair has violated the rigid rules the commenter has created and they lack a filter to keep from saying something. They think their rudeness is justified because they are trying to correct the "worse" violation the other person committed with having different hair.

Just on that point; part of a harmonious society is one where everyone is moving in the same direction. One factor in that is subscribing to the perceived standards of any given time period. When humans first started forming tribes, there would have differences in art, hair and makeup design, and clothing styles between the areas and tribes. Outsiders would have been spotted fairly quickly as they wouldn’t have dressed correctly or may have done their hair in a style not common to the area. Movingly forwards to more recent times, certain styles of dress and hair were marks of class, wealth and style; or just showing that you were a good and pious member of the relevant church. Mistakes could cost you social status, respect, or even the chance of marriage; (god forbid, you dare to dress as if you were single or virginal while married). Pointing out mistakes was considered by some to be almost a duty, so the offender; intentionally or otherwise; could correct and not further risk their future.

[lapushka]

Equality needs to be equal. You can't be treated as special snowflakes, delicate and precious, while demanding that others consider you equal.

As someone who has encountered stupid feminists, one even became irate because I politely held a door for her, my opinion towards the reality of feminism is quite different than my support of the theory.

When entitled man-hating super-bitch is the best description available, it's time to smack them down.

I don't think that even exists. And I strongly object to the way of putting this. No woman wants to be viewed that way.

[cjk]

I don't think that even exists. And I strongly object to the way of putting this. No woman wants to be viewed that way.

Unfortunately I've encountered it myself. But, thankfully, I would describe it as the behavior of outliers.

While I do stand behind what I said, having gone back and read it fresh I think I failed to express myself effectively. And I was unkind. It was never my intention to offend.

And I think I offended people.

I want to extend my heartfelt apology. I am sorry.

[pili]

Just on that point; part of a harmonious society is one where everyone is moving in the same direction. One factor in that is subscribing to the perceived standards of any given time period. When humans first started forming tribes, there would have differences in art, hair and makeup design, and clothing styles between the areas and tribes. Outsiders would have been spotted fairly quickly as they wouldn’t have dressed correctly or may have done their hair in a style not common to the area. Movingly forwards to more recent times, certain styles of dress and hair were marks of class, wealth and style; or just showing that you were a good and pious member of the relevant church. Mistakes could cost you social status, respect, or even the chance of marriage; (god forbid, you dare to dress as if you were single or virginal while married). Pointing out mistakes was considered by some to be almost a duty, so the offender; intentionally or otherwise; could correct and not further risk their future.
That's a good point, but times, they are a-changin'! It's annoying when people refuse to recognize that other people can have their own opinions and preferences. When the freedom to speak freely is mistaken as the freedom to be rude. There are still some very small groups where what you see that play out, but not in general society. At least not in general developed nations. There are people I know who won't bat an eyelash at telling someone with a tattoo that they have marked themselves for the devil. This happened at work and I had to reprimand the subordinate who called a guest that. I was working at a global hotel chain. She totally did not understand that she was being rude. She thought she was saving the young lady. I'm not talking about an extreme tattoo. This was a small butterfly. The same thinking goes with hair. Someone sees something that is not the norm or something they envy and they just can't seem to check themselves.

[Cybercat]

One thing I have noticed with me is as I have gotten older I am more accepting. For instance when in my 30 s and younger out of the norm colored hair I looked down on for it wasn't natural color of hair. In case of blue instead of brown or black covering grey. Really short hair made you a Butch where I grew up. But Now my concerns and worries are gone. I could care less of others thoughts or opinions about me or others. It just does not matter at all. I don't gossip either and can't stand liars or cheets.

Morals and morality are lost with etiquette and manners. Those do need to come back some. Maybe not as strict as in the past but some more than now.

[Dendra]

Unfortunately I've encountered it myself. But, thankfully, I would describe it as the behavior of outliers.

While I do stand behind what I said, having gone back and read it fresh I think I failed to express myself effectively. And I was unkind. It was never my intention to offend.

And I think I offended people.

I want to extend my heartfelt apology. I am sorry.

Thank you, cjk, that's the absolute best way you could have dealt with/worded this. Many thanks for your heartfelt apology, it is gladly accepted.

And that's my last deviation from topic, I promise!

[lapushka]

Unfortunately I've encountered it myself. But, thankfully, I would describe it as the behavior of outliers.

While I do stand behind what I said, having gone back and read it fresh I think I failed to express myself effectively. And I was unkind. It was never my intention to offend.

And I think I offended people.

I want to extend my heartfelt apology. I am sorry.

Apology gladly accepted. :) Thank you, cjk!

[pili]

Unfortunately I've encountered it myself. But, thankfully, I would describe it as the behavior of outliers.

While I do stand behind what I said, having gone back and read it fresh I think I failed to express myself effectively. And I was unkind. It was never my intention to offend.

And I think I offended people.

I want to extend my heartfelt apology. I am sorry.
Thank you.

[LadyArwen]

Wow ladies, thank you so much for your thoughtful responses. What I am thinking is...long hair is so out of the norm today...people don't really know how to react to it. If it is a political representation, I am pretty confused about that, but we can leave it at that. Where I live, the more conservative you are the longer your hair...I have found that interesting. Though that is obviously not true for everyone, just where I live.

What I do find the most interesting is that long hair is probably rarer these days due to heat styling and dyeing. It is just really hard to get very long hair when it has more done to it. I really wanted to know why longer hair is rarer these days, and more common in historical times...Thanks!

[daisy rei]

whew! this thread was a hoot to read through. i won't try to derail by adding my :twocents: on feminism. (i will say that the term has turned to utter garbage now that we're allowing everyone to decide their own definition of the word.)

however, where i live (midwest) women do not spend a lot of time or money on their appearance unless they are very wealthy (even then, they're considered nouveau riche by locals) or if they aren't initially from the midwest. long or natural hair is definitely not popular, except among "country" girls.

this is what i struggle with, to be honest. i'm not sure if it's just because i'm a snob, or if it's because i've allowed other people's negative opinions affect me, but i hate how long hair is associated or only seen on people (not just girls) who are considered trailer trash, white trash, hillbillies, rednecks etc. - you get the idea. you could even call them "conservatives" if you want.

if someone told me my hair was "country long" it would make a shudder run down my spine. i personally prefer to associate long hair with celtic maidens, victorian socialites, hindu goddesses, even hippies - but am i just voicing the opinion of a privileged middle class white girl? i don't know, i feel guilty for some reason.

there's no reason to make an assumption about anyone based on their hair. period.

[Glitch]

whew! this thread was a hoot to read through. i won't try to derail by adding my :twocents: on feminism. (i will say that the term has turned to utter garbage now that we're allowing everyone to decide their own definition of the word.)

however, where i live (midwest) women do not spend a lot of time or money on their appearance unless they are very wealthy (even then, they're considered nouveau riche by locals) or if they aren't initially from the midwest. long or natural hair is definitely not popular, except among "country" girls.

this is what i struggle with, to be honest. i'm not sure if it's just because i'm a snob, or if it's because i've allowed other people's negative opinions affect me, but i hate how long hair is associated or only seen on people (not just girls) who are considered trailer trash, white trash, hillbillies, rednecks etc. - you get the idea. you could even call them "conservatives" if you want.

if someone told me my hair was "country long" it would make a shudder run down my spine. i personally prefer to associate long hair with celtic maidens, victorian socialites, hindu goddesses, even hippies - but am i just voicing the opinion of a privileged middle class white girl? i don't know, i feel guilty for some reason.

there's no reason to make an assumption about anyone based on their hair. period.

Interesting. Where I grew up (massive city), it's fashionable to have long hair. The longer, the better. Think Kim K. culture (https://www.google.ca/search?q=kim+kardashian+long+hair&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIncj_xqzbAhUIFHwKHUJqBj0Q_AUICigB&biw=1067&bih=699#imgrc=l4zGzEx1i-aX0M:) :laugh: People there pay hefty prices for the best of the best extensions, etc. If you have short hair or don't wear makeup, among other things, you're usually considered weird. That's the main reason I disliked having boy-short hair, even in my childhood :p

But yeah, you're right, there's no reason to judge anyone based on their hair. It proves your point of how inaccurate it can be anyway, to where stereotypes differ greatly just depending on the region, and not the person.

[cjk]

Interesting. Where I grew up (massive city), it's fashionable to have long hair.

If you have short hair or don't wear makeup, among other things, you're usually considered weird.

But you'll notice it's not just long hair. It's heavily MANIPULATED long hair. The length, whether natural or extensions, is just a vehicle by which the hairdressing can be showcased.

It's rather like comparing my beard to this intricately sculpted one, from The Hunger Games. But...it's a beard!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/thehungergames/images/d/d0/Seneca_Crane.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/350?cb=20120208233058

Part of her initial thesis was not just that being a longhair makes her an outlier, but that her choice to be a natural longhair doubles down on that choice.

[Glitch]

But you'll notice it's not just long hair. It's heavily MANIPULATED long hair. The length, whether natural or extensions, is just a vehicle by which the hairdressing can be showcased.

It's rather like comparing my beard to this intricately sculpted one, from The Hunger Games. But...it's a beard!

[photo]

Part of her initial thesis was not just that being a longhair makes her an outlier, but that her choice to be a natural longhair doubles down on that choice.

Lol I am aware! However, it's incredibly popular to have natural, unmanipulated hair where I grew up as well. It's everywhere, much of it due to cultural reasons :) My point was that people really strive for that look, even going to extreme lengths (;)) for it.

[Alissalocks]

Because no one else should have a say in how you choose to express yourself.

This!

...I mean, I know that's not how lots of others behave, sadly. But still.

[M.McDonough]

I think it's what society wants, trends, etc. not what you want. It's what we perceive to be beautiful. Mullets, for instance, were pretty much the zeitgeist of the 80s. A long time ago a woman with a full healthy looking body was the norm. Today, however, you have to starve yourself, look anorexic and scrawny to be perceived as beautiful with an attractive physique. Marilyn Monroe is a perfect example of this when she used to be a little overweight to a lot of people nowadays. But in regards to long hair, trust me the struggle is even more real if you're a guy lol. I get like 95% negative comments and and 5% positive. But in the end I don't like it when people tell me what to do or tell me how to live my life. Instead of going with the flow, I defy and do what I want.:) Good luck.

[EdG]

But in regards to long hair, trust me the struggle is even more real if you're a guy lol. I get like 95% negative comments and and 5% positive. But in the end I don't like it when people tell me what to do or tell me how to live my life. Instead of going with the flow, I defy and do what I want.:) Good luck.Strangers will stop commenting about your hair once they grow up. ;)
Ed

[wannabe-rusalka]

I think it's what society wants, trends, etc. not what you want. It's what we perceive to be beautiful. Mullets, for instance, were pretty much the zeitgeist of the 80s. A long time ago a woman with a full healthy looking body was the norm. Today, however, you have to starve yourself, look anorexic and scrawny to be perceived as beautiful with an attractive physique. Marilyn Monroe is a perfect example of this when she used to be a little overweight to a lot of people nowadays. But in regards to long hair, trust me the struggle is even more real if you're a guy lol. I get like 95% negative comments and and 5% positive. But in the end I don't like it when people tell me what to do or tell me how to live my life. Instead of going with the flow, I defy and do what I want.:) Good luck.

I wholeheartedly disagree with your point saying women today must starve themselves and be scrawny for an attractive physique. Growing up, I was continuously picked on for being scrawny- I didn’t starve myself to be that way either, I played lots of sports and was naturally on the gangly side. “Thicc”, curvy women are very in now adays and I am certainly not that.

I would say that men generally look for women who look healthy. The body shape (curvy, boyish, what have you) changes but evolutionarily men want healthy women so they can reproduce. Anorexic women aren’t the best partners for reproduction.

Often times I think its forgotten that we are but animals and we like what we like sexually because we are evolutionarily programed to do so, at least in a lot of instances.

[Aredhel]

I wholeheartedly disagree with your point saying women today must starve themselves and be scrawny for an attractive physique. Growing up, I was continuously picked on for being scrawny- I didn’t starve myself to be that way either, I played lots of sports and was naturally on the gangly side. “Thicc”, curvy women are very in now adays and I am certainly not that.

I would say that men generally look for women who look healthy. The body shape (curvy, boyish, what have you) changes but evolutionarily men want healthy women so they can reproduce. Anorexic women aren’t the best partners for reproduction.

Often times I think its forgotten that we are but animals and we like what we like sexually because we are evolutionarily programed to do so, at least in a lot of instances.
I was gonna say....

Thick is in now. I received a lot of male attention when I was 30 pounds heavier but now most people just call me a "twig". Which I'm indifferent towards because I personally prefer the way I look now (and I dislike male attention anyway), but most people seemed to like my appearance more when I had more weight on me. There are a few people at work who are around the same BMI as me (or lower) and I hear other people whispering about how anorexic they look all the time. I can only imagine what they say around me behind my back. The very curvy/bigger girls at work receive endless male attention. Just an interesting observation from my side of the pond. :)

[daisy rei]

There's definitely a double standard when it comes to thinness. I think a majority of women wish they were thinner, but in generally extreme thinness is considered unattractive for both sexes.

The new "thicc" trend is simply a result of the processed food industry catching up with us. We have to start considering obese people attractive now because soon everyone (in the US) will be obese!

[browneyedsusan]

I think it's just changing times. Styles come and go. Some are "in" and others are not!
Historically, women have done all sorts of crazy stuff to and with their hair.

In more recent times, I think short hair for women came into vogue around World War I. It was easier to care for and women were fed up with the strict Victorian standards. They cut their hair -- and pitched out their corsets -- to show that they could do as they pleased! :) (When World War II came along, women started wearing pants! Shock and awe!)

In older Disney movies: Snow White or Sleeping Beauty, the herione's hair is short and styled. Women that favor those types of hairstyles get branded "Q-tip heads" , or something similiar. They're just emulating Marilyn Monroe or Elizabeth Taylor, and they were beautiful women.

I'm conservative, too. My family doesn't seem too concerned about my hair. I try to keep it appropriate for the occasion: up for church, in a slick, tight bun when visiting the cancer ward, braided for work. I sometimes get comments about it being long for my age: too bad, so sad. I'm old enough to do what I want. As long as young children don't run screaming from my presence, I'm good. :)

[pili]

I think it's just changing times. Styles come and go. Some are "in" and others are not!
Historically, women have done all sorts of crazy stuff to and with their hair.

In more recent times, I think short hair for women came into vogue around World War I. It was easier to care for and women were fed up with the strict Victorian standards. They cut their hair -- and pitched out their corsets -- to show that they could do as they pleased! :) (When World War II came along, women started wearing pants! Shock and awe!)

In older Disney movies: Snow White or Sleeping Beauty, the herione's hair is short and styled. Women that favor those types of hairstyles get branded "Q-tip heads" , or something similiar. They're just emulating Marilyn Monroe or Elizabeth Taylor, and they were beautiful women.

I'm conservative, too. My family doesn't seem too concerned about my hair. I try to keep it appropriate for the occasion: up for church, in a slick, tight bun when visiting the cancer ward, braided for work. I sometimes get comments about it being long for my age: too bad, so sad. I'm old enough to do what I want. As long as young children don't run screaming from my presence, I'm good. :)

I need to use that.
SaveSave

[SwanFeathers]

I know the feeling; that it's nice not to feel alone on your growth journey.

Maybe try wearing your hair up more? If you would like to. You don't have to because people are weird. But it will save your hair *and* save you the comments. :flower:

this feels like just avoiding. which can be useful if you don't want to interact with strange people. but just hiding your hair does nothing to correct the public's idiotic ideas. I don't know, I am a confrontational personality so I just tell people that they are being stupid, but I wouldnt recommend that tactic to everyone. someone with more social grace and finesse needs to comment!

[carlimeow]

Thanks.

We really are being manipulated by commercial interests into being the perfect consumers. The manipulation is so pervasive that we often don't realize it.
Ed

Oh yes, and I also think many people have a thing with their pride (or fear) where they don't want to admit they might very well be, in some way and to some extent, being controlled (or possibly in danger of being controlled). However it can become so easy to see if one allows themselves to see it, and also has the resources and knowledge to see it for what it is. Especially if/when one doesn't support a certain thing or has stopped supporting a certain thing, and they're watching so many other people just sort of consume mindlessly whatever they are being "fed" even if it is psychic or spiritual poison. And yes, since it's so pervasive, it ends up affecting peoples lives regardless of the distance they may try to keep from it. I have some strong ideas about this but obviously most of them are not appropriate to talk about in this thread since they are not focused on hair. Of course some facets of this concept are more major than others, (hair is perhaps closer to the "less major" end of the spectrum) but regardless of the specifics it all fits into that greater general framework of fitting a mold of "perfect consumers" as you said.