Can I get a little help with my products?

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

So awhile ago, I got this conditioner to try by a company called "liveclean" to review.
I ended up really really liking it, but I cant seem to find it in person.
The other day I went to the store to get conditioner that I knew was silicone free, and my hair felt a bit dry so I got a mask.
I decided on a shea moisture product, I think it was the raw shea butter deep treatment.
My hair is tangled. It does not like this conditioner at all and my hair does not feel as nice as it does with the liveclean.
I am trying to figure out what about the product my hair does not like so I thought we could compare the ingredients together and I could get some feedback from you guys.

Raw Shea butter deep treatment:
Deionized water, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter)*, Argan Oil, Vegetable Glycerin, Emulsifying Wax, Sea Kelp Extract, Panthenol (Vitamin B-5),Essential Oil Blend, Avacado Oil, Lonicera Caprifolium (Honeysuckle) Flower (and) Lonicera Japonica (Japanese honeysuckle) Flower Extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Hyssopus Officinalis Extract, Salvia Officinalis (sage) Leaf and Equisetum Arvense Extract, Soybean Oil, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil

Live clean Coconut Milk moisturizing conditioner:
Aqua (water), Cetyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Capryloyl Glycerin/Sebacic Acid Copolymer, Apricot Kernel oil, Coconut oil, Coconut fruit extract, Hydrolyzed Rice Protein, Ascorbic Acid, Panthenol, Tocopheryl Acetate, Castor seed oil, Hydrogenated castor oil, Cera Alba, Copernicia Cerifera Wax, Diheptyl Succinate, Hydroxyethylcellouse, Glycerin, Phenoxyethenol, Benzyl Alcohol, Ethylhexylgylcerin, Coumarin, Hexyl Cinnamal, Linalool, Butylphenyl methylpropional, fragrance, Citric Acid.

After looking at the ingredients, maybe its possible my hair likes the citric acid? My hair did not really like shea butter when I tried it as a leave in, so I didnt think it would be an issue washed out, but it seems to be. Maybe the Shea moisture product is too heavy?
My ends are just not too happy, at least they dont feel as nice as they do with the live clean conditioner, I know that both products are very different, one is a mask and one is a conditioner, but i used the mask like a conditioner, so now I am kind of afraid to use the other shea moisture conditioner (rose oil) that I bought to replace the live clean when I run out. The live clean conditioner just seems so chemically... its certified organic and its supposed to be environmentally safe but I like the sound of the shea moisture products ingredients MORE. Im also very confused because my hair hates coconut oil as a leave it but seems to really really like this conditioner. I thought I was protein sensitive but apparently my hair really likes protein. So im confused!

What do you guys think? Some of you know about chemicals a lot more than I do. What do you think might be the issue?

[samanthaa]

None of SM's protein-free conditioners worked for me. They left me with tangled hair. I think I tried both the conditioner and deep treatment from the Raw Shea Butter line and, nope, nothing. It was like I hadn't used any conditioner at all. Same with the African Water Mint line.

I had more success with their protein-containing conditioners, although my hair doesn't like protein over the long-run so I just stopped buying SM altogether. My favorite was the Superfruit Complex conditioner. I'd recommend giving that a try if you know you like protein.

Same as you: I really wanted to like SM because of their more natural ingredients and also their cruelty-free stamp. Sadly I wasn't impressed and am largely still searching for a conditioner that meets my protein-, silicone-, and cruelty-free needs while still being "natural."

[Anje]

The Shea Moisture deep treatment is mainly oils. The Liveclean conditioner looks like a normal conditioner with normal conditioner ingredients. Very different things, it's almost like posting a shampoo and a conditioner, and saying that your hair didn't feel as nice when you used the shampoo as conditioner. Good to know, but you can't make a whole lot of inference about what your hair does and doesn't like, beyond that you do better with a standard conditioner for the kind of conditioning that you did and the results you wanted. So, you know that you don't do well replacing your conditioner with a shea-heavy oil blend. That's worth knowing. But I wouldn't extend it much further than that.

For what it's worth, I frequently like conditioners that have a behentrimonium compound fairly high in the ingredients. It detangles well and makes my hair feel silky, but it doesn't seem to give me buildup. I tend to look for it when searching out new products.

Edit: Good rule of thumb: Pay most attention to the first 5 ingredients after water, unless you're on the lookout for allergens and similar. They're giving you most of the effects, almost certainly. Citric acid is the 28th ingredient, meaning that it makes up at most 1/28th (3%) of the product, and probably far less than that. It's after the preservatives and fragrance, which means there's virtually none of it present.

[Ondine11]

The shea moisture product contains many heavy oils, & it may deposit a film that is causing tangling. Not all films cause slip. It also contains an emuslifying wax near the top of the ingredients list.

The Live Clean contains apryloyl Glycerin/Sebacic Acid Copolymer, Apricot Kernel oil, Coconut oil, citric acid. This combination was in a product I used to buy from a Natural store back in the 80s. I'll never forget it because my hair shone like a mirror, but, was not weighed down or oily-looking after the second day.

[lapushka]

The shea moisture product contains many heavy oils, & it may deposit a film that is causing tangling. Not all films cause slip. It also contains an emuslifying wax near the top of the ingredients list.

Yes, a lot of oils & waxes. Pretty heavy product.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

None of SM's protein-free conditioners worked for me. They left me with tangled hair. I think I tried both the conditioner and deep treatment from the Raw Shea Butter line and, nope, nothing. It was like I hadn't used any conditioner at all. Same with the African Water Mint line.

I had more success with their protein-containing conditioners, although my hair doesn't like protein over the long-run so I just stopped buying SM altogether. My favorite was the Superfruit Complex conditioner. I'd recommend giving that a try if you know you like protein.

Same as you: I really wanted to like SM because of their more natural ingredients and also their cruelty-free stamp. Sadly I wasn't impressed and am largely still searching for a conditioner that meets my protein-, silicone-, and cruelty-free needs while still being "natural."
I do own one of SM's protein free conditioners, it's at DBF house so I haven't tried it with the new routine I've figured out my hair really likes. So I'm going to try that next time I shower at his house, but if it doesn't work out then I'm probably going to end up tossing the Shea moisture products I have. I've wanted to make it work because I really like the message behind their company and I like knowing where my money is going. But I don't think it's for me. Maybe I can use them as shaving cream or something? I typically don't do that stuff because my skin is very sensitive but their products are pretty natural so I can't imagine I'd have too much of an allergic reaction.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

The Shea Moisture deep treatment is mainly oils. The Liveclean conditioner looks like a normal conditioner with normal conditioner ingredients. Very different things, it's almost like posting a shampoo and a conditioner, and saying that your hair didn't feel as nice when you used the shampoo as conditioner. Good to know, but you can't make a whole lot of inference about what your hair does and doesn't like, beyond that you do better with a standard conditioner for the kind of conditioning that you did and the results you wanted. So, you know that you don't do well replacing your conditioner with a shea-heavy oil blend. That's worth knowing. But I wouldn't extend it much further than that.

For what it's worth, I frequently like conditioners that have a behentrimonium compound fairly high in the ingredients. It detangles well and makes my hair feel silky, but it doesn't seem to give me buildup. I tend to look for it when searching out new products.

Edit: Good rule of thumb: Pay most attention to the first 5 ingredients after water, unless you're on the lookout for allergens and similar. They're giving you most of the effects, almost certainly. Citric acid is the 28th ingredient, meaning that it makes up at most 1/28th (3%) of the product, and probably far less than that. It's after the preservatives and fragrance, which means there's virtually none of it present.

Okay! Thanks for the advice. I wasn't sure if it was the citric acid because I'm aware about how they list ingredients but I did notice it so I was like hmmm. I do ACV rinses with every wash as well so I wasn't sure if that was what made a difference.
I always thought Shea moisture products were like regular conditioners and shampoos just more natural ingredients. I never really thought that they were basically oils. But good to know.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

The shea moisture product contains many heavy oils, & it may deposit a film that is causing tangling. Not all films cause slip. It also contains an emuslifying wax near the top of the ingredients list.

The Live Clean contains apryloyl Glycerin/Sebacic Acid Copolymer, Apricot Kernel oil, Coconut oil, citric acid. This combination was in a product I used to buy from a Natural store back in the 80s. I'll never forget it because my hair shone like a mirror, but, was not weighed down or oily-looking after the second day.

Good to know! I don't know what a lot of these ingredients actually are so I just kind of assume they all kind of worked the same. But good to know.

Hmmm. Well, that sounds exactly like what I want my hair to do lol live clean can only seem to be purchased online and then shipped straight to store for pick up, I can't seem to find it anywhere in store available. But maybe I'll just stick to that. As so far - they're the only cruelty free drugstore hair product brand I've been able to find that's without silicones, which is a bit of a bummer.

[lapushka]

Hmmm. Well, that sounds exactly like what I want my hair to do lol live clean can only seem to be purchased online and then shipped straight to store for pick up, I can't seem to find it anywhere in store available. But maybe I'll just stick to that. As so far - they're the only cruelty free drugstore hair product brand I've been able to find that's without silicones, which is a bit of a bummer.

Try Avalon Organics. You should be able to get that more easily. And it's a good range. I had them at one point. Kind of spendy, but not bad!

[Kyaatje]

Like a lot of people already said: the first one is almost pure oil while the second has Behentrimonium Chloride, a protein and citric acid. This tells me that the second is a more classic conditioner, with an adjusted ph value.
I make my own products and I always use a small amount of citric acid (because you don't need much for the effect) to get the conditioner I make more acidic. When a conditioner is more acidic it will leave your hair shinier and easier to comb. The same with the Behentrimonium Chloride: it helps to condition your hair, ie keeps it soft and manageable. Protein works great for some people, less for others.
The problem that I see with the first is that it hasn't got an acid to adjust the ph. And it doesn't has conditioning agents. This means an agent that helps lock in moist. The oils will leave a coating on your hair, which stays on because there is nothing helping it off (a small amount of surfactant would be able to do that)

Hope that helps ?!

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

Try Avalon Organics. You should be able to get that more easily. And it's a good range. I had them at one point. Kind of spendy, but not bad!

I ended up nosey-ing about and found the brands instagram and messaged them, they told me to try rite aid or walgreens, and ride aid had it! For cheaper than the online store was charging! I drove to rite aid and picked it up and im happy now. :) All of them are cone free and cruelty free! Yay. Now, what to do with all this SM stuff lol.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

Like a lot of people already said: the first one is almost pure oil while the second has Behentrimonium Chloride, a protein and citric acid. This tells me that the second is a more classic conditioner, with an adjusted ph value.
I make my own products and I always use a small amount of citric acid (because you don't need much for the effect) to get the conditioner I make more acidic. When a conditioner is more acidic it will leave your hair shinier and easier to comb. The same with the Behentrimonium Chloride: it helps to condition your hair, ie keeps it soft and manageable. Protein works great for some people, less for others.
The problem that I see with the first is that it hasn't got an acid to adjust the ph. And it doesn't has conditioning agents. This means an agent that helps lock in moist. The oils will leave a coating on your hair, which stays on because there is nothing helping it off (a small amount of surfactant would be able to do that)

Hope that helps ?!

O! ok, i never knew about that. I thought SM worked like most other hair products, no wonder the brand never 100% worked for me!

[Corvana]

Okay! Thanks for the advice. I wasn't sure if it was the citric acid because I'm aware about how they list ingredients but I did notice it so I was like hmmm. I do ACV rinses with every wash as well so I wasn't sure if that was what made a difference.
I always thought Shea moisture products were like regular conditioners and shampoos just more natural ingredients. I never really thought that they were basically oils. But good to know.

I don't think this specifically is a brand issue, but a product use issue. It'd be sort of like you wanting to glue something and generally using glue but running out and trying to use jam instead. Sure it's sticky, but it won't really glue things together very well.

The deep treatment isn't a conditioner like you used it as. It's a leave-on treatment like you'd do with heavy oiling before you wash, or as a repair mask kind of thing. I think you're even supposed to leave it on for like... 20 minutes or something before washing it out (and presumably conditioning after as normal, but idk I always condition after I use shampoo, deep treatment or not).

Now if you used a SM conditioner and didn't like it as a conditioner, then ok, there's probably something about it your hair doesn't like. But this specific incident doesn't say much to that effect as you're trying to use the product in a way it wasn't fully intended (from what I can gather about it).

If you go to the SM site, you can see how they separate their hair products. The deep treatment you bought is listed under "hair treatment", not "conditioner".

I feel like perhaps you were misunderstanding (but maybe I am?), and thought I'd try to clear it up!

[ephemeri]

Sounds like you've got a lot of good info here. I would've guessed the mix of shea butter and wax was what your hair didn't agree with with SM. I think we have kind of similar hair and my hair would really hate that combo!

Glad you found and like the liveclean. I tried one of their conditioners and couldn't stand the smell. :( But I do like how they're supposed to be environmentally friendly.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

I don't think this specifically is a brand issue, but a product use issue. It'd be sort of like you wanting to glue something and generally using glue but running out and trying to use jam instead. Sure it's sticky, but it won't really glue things together very well.

The deep treatment isn't a conditioner like you used it as. It's a leave-on treatment like you'd do with heavy oiling before you wash, or as a repair mask kind of thing. I think you're even supposed to leave it on for like... 20 minutes or something before washing it out (and presumably conditioning after as normal, but idk I always condition after I use shampoo, deep treatment or not).

Now if you used a SM conditioner and didn't like it as a conditioner, then ok, there's probably something about it your hair doesn't like. But this specific incident doesn't say much to that effect as you're trying to use the product in a way it wasn't fully intended (from what I can gather about it).

If you go to the SM site, you can see how they separate their hair products. The deep treatment you bought is listed under "hair treatment", not "conditioner".

I feel like perhaps you were misunderstanding (but maybe I am?), and thought I'd try to clear it up!

Ive used a lot of other SM products with the same results. I have been using SM on and off the last year and whaddaknow, the tangles have been the only issue I have had during my growing, and what products was I using? SM. Half the time SM and half the time Hask. And always tangles after a day. I have a protein free conditioner at DBF house that was - ok. But not the results I am getting from using the live clean. My hair is ok - then with a day its tangled and dry again. The results from the deep treatment were worse than the results I have had from using regular conditioner from this brand - so thats really the only "difference" but in the end, I get tangles and the dry feeling returns. I used the deep treatment as a "conditioner", only leaving in my hair for about 10 mins, because I have done that same thing with other more "conventional" brands, without problems and thought it would be the same. Other users here have told me that I dont need to leave a deep treatment long term, and I do not do deep treatments like that because I get headaches, and I have seen 0 difference between leaving a deep treatment on 15 mins vs an hour. So I saw 0 point in leaving it for a half hour and getting out of the shower when I could leave it on for 10-15 mins and get the same exact results.
I just dont think this brand is for me, I tried for a very very very long time. The only products I never tried, were leave ins or styling products because I know they would be too heavy that way. But its obvious that this brand is also too heavy for washing and conditioning for me as well. Bummer!

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

Sounds like you've got a lot of good info here. I would've guessed the mix of shea butter and wax was what your hair didn't agree with with SM. I think we have kind of similar hair and my hair would really hate that combo!

Glad you found and like the liveclean. I tried one of their conditioners and couldn't stand the smell. :( But I do like how they're supposed to be environmentally friendly.

The smell is better than a lot of other cone free conditioners that have been recommended to me here! Thats for sure. I have a jar of some tressemme conditioner sitting in my shower that legit smells like rotting playdoh and I HATE IT, so gross. I only use it to wash out indigo because I am trying to get rid of it.. xD Luckily for me, the smell of the live clean conditioner, usually evaporates, and is easily masked when I put in a leave in or oil. :) Thank goodness. LOL.

[Corvana]

Ive used a lot of other SM products with the same results. I have been using SM on and off the last year and whaddaknow, the tangles have been the only issue I have had during my growing, and what products was I using? SM. Half the time SM and half the time Hask. And always tangles after a day. I have a protein free conditioner at DBF house that was - ok. But not the results I am getting from using the live clean. My hair is ok - then with a day its tangled and dry again. The results from the deep treatment were worse than the results I have had from using regular conditioner from this brand - so thats really the only "difference" but in the end, I get tangles and the dry feeling returns. I used the deep treatment as a "conditioner", only leaving in my hair for about 10 mins, because I have done that same thing with other more "conventional" brands, without problems and thought it would be the same. Other users here have told me that I dont need to leave a deep treatment long term, and I do not do deep treatments like that because I get headaches, and I have seen 0 difference between leaving a deep treatment on 15 mins vs an hour. So I saw 0 point in leaving it for a half hour and getting out of the shower when I could leave it on for 10-15 mins and get the same exact results.
I just dont think this brand is for me, I tried for a very very very long time. The only products I never tried, were leave ins or styling products because I know they would be too heavy that way. But its obvious that this brand is also too heavy for washing and conditioning for me as well. Bummer!

I totally understand! I'm that way with Pantene products. My hair is aaaaaaaaaalways dry and icky with them.

My hair actually really loves heavier stuff, so maybe I should try the SM out... Would have to be awhile from now because money is tight, but it's definitely going on my "to try" list! But I've always done well with shampoos and conditioners for "dry" hair, even though mine isn't dry (unless I use shampoos for "normal" hair :laugh: )!

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

I totally understand! I'm that way with Pantene products. My hair is aaaaaaaaaalways dry and icky with them.

My hair actually really loves heavier stuff, so maybe I should try the SM out... Would have to be awhile from now because money is tight, but it's definitely going on my "to try" list! But I've always done well with shampoos and conditioners for "dry" hair, even though mine isn't dry (unless I use shampoos for "normal" hair :laugh: )!

LOL Its a bummer because I only like to purchase from brands that I know are producing product ethically, sadly loreal and estee lauder are.. the most unethical.
So I try to use brands that I trust. You might be able to find some users in the SM forum that might send you products that didnt work for them!