My hair can't make up its mind about silicones.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

So, I figured out why my hair is like velcro all the time, and I think its the silicones.
I am so confused, when my hair is washed without silicones - none in my conditioner, but SEALED with silicones like in a leave in oil, my hair feels amazing.
But when I use conditioner with silicones in it and seal with oil or silicones, my ends feel like garbage. They almost even look like there is build up holding my ends together. Glue in my ends.
Last time I washed my hair I shampooed with SLS, conditioned with a silicone free protein conditioner from liveclean (it was coconut so i assume there is protein involved.) and then rinsed with ACV, then sealed with Hask leave in oil treatment. My hair felt, really nice for several days.
Then yesterday I washed my hair at my boyfriends house, I have less shampoo options there so I chelated because my scalp was itchy and disgusting.
Conditioned with a conditioner from both hask and shea moisture, I used both because there was barley any hask conditioner left and only applied SM to my scalp to help soothe it.
Then I sealed my hair with the hask oil as usual. My ends are tangly and feel, egh.

Is is possible that the ACV makes a difference? I cant ACV at my boyfriends because he hates the smell...
Maybe I need very very light amounts of silicones?
Does anyone else's hair behave this way?
Its a shame because I have lots of hair conditioners left that have silicones in them that I would like to use up.

[pailin]

It's possible the conditioners and serums have different silicones, and your hair does well with some but not others. Or it's ok to use silicone serum but not silicone serum plus silicone conditioner. Or it may be that using it all the time is too much. You might be able to use the conditioner occasionally but not regularly.
BTW, there are members who find that silicones generate tangles for them. So there are a lot of possibilities.
Also, check the ingredients list for protein maybe, since some people don't tolerate that. It might not be the silicone that is the actual problem.

[wispe]

My hair is best behaved when I'm silicone free in every product except my serum, yeah. And I remember my Hask conditioner building up pretty quickly when I was still using it. As far as ACV rinses go, I think I read using citric acid in your rinse instead gives a similar result and doesn't have a smell, so it may be something to look in to?

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

It's possible the conditioners and serums have different silicones, and your hair does well with some but not others. Or it's ok to use silicone serum but not silicone serum plus silicone conditioner. Or it may be that using it all the time is too much. You might be able to use the conditioner occasionally but not regularly.
BTW, there are members who find that silicones generate tangles for them. So there are a lot of possibilities.
Also, check the ingredients list for protein maybe, since some people don't tolerate that. It might not be the silicone that is the actual problem.

They all have the same silicones. Demthicone. I use to be cone free and my hair tangled, so its not that my hair hates cones 100%. Just need to figure out the exact science to it.

[akurah]

If your hair prefers cone free conditioner and a silicone serum, why not do that?

[lapushka]

First of all you have to consider your routine in its entirety and not be ready to put the silicones forward as the culprit. Open mind. It might as well be the rinse you're doing. Maybe the rinse and the silicones don't go together. Maybe only use the silicones in a very targeted fashion (so only in the leave-in).

[likelikepenny]

My hair does this. I chalk it up t the fact that most silicone conditioners aren't moisturizing enough, leaving my ends tangly. However, if I use a moisturizing silicone free conditioner and then seal it in with cones, I have a good balance if that makes sense.

ACV and silicones have never been a problem for me.

[school of fish]

I've recently eliminated my acidic rinse to see if I can drop it and it was fine for a few days but I'm tangling more now - the little gluey-ends tangles - so I'm going to try going back and seeing if that makes a difference. I'll report back with results.

For me, I have more success with light silicone in rinse out conditioner than in non-cone conditioner, but I can't say that I've yet found a product that gives me magic hair ;) Tangles, with this fineness and at this length are simply reality for me. They're better when my hair is all one length, no layers. The silicone I seem to do well with is bis-aminopropyl-dimethicone - I stick with that. For some reason polyquats make for more grabbiness, although I'm stumped as to why.

All these determinations I've made for myself have been over time trial and error observations and educated guesses - it takes a long time. It sounds like you haven't quite nailed your list of best practices and ingredients, but that you're circling the wagons on them! Keep process-of-eliminating the options - you're gaining ground :)

You may never know 'scientifically' why something works or doesn't, but pinpointing the hits and misses through observation is all you need for a way forward. Keep in mind too that climate, ambient temperature, humidity/dryness, and seasonal variability can have a huge impact on hair behaviour - as well as water quality of course. I sometimes think some of my tangle issues stem from where specifically I live in the world - that's not changing anytime soon so I'm working around it :p

[olivetime]

I think I am experiencing the same thing. These grabby ends are making me question everything. LOL

[Arctic]

(...) I've yet found a product that gives me magic hair ;) (...)

(...) It sounds like you haven't quite nailed your list of best practices and ingredients, but that you're circling the wagons on them! Keep process-of-eliminating the options - you're gaining ground :)

You may never know 'scientifically' why something works or doesn't, but pinpointing the hits and misses through observation is all you need for a way forward. (...)

Hear hear! Schoolie strikes again with her wise words. Sounds like you (OP) have found a relevation, not a hindrance. I'd take it and run with it, and enjoy the nice results!

[pailin]

They all have the same silicones. Demthicone. I use to be cone free and my hair tangled, so its not that my hair hates cones 100%. Just need to figure out the exact science to it.

Sometimes things really don't seem to make sense! I actually use mostly cone-free conditioner, then silicone serum.... As little sense as it seems to make, it seems to work. I'm not sure if it's the cone-free part that's actually helpful in the conditioner for me though. I think it's something else about it that just makes my hair feel good. But the coney serum is what makes it stupidly easy to detangle.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

If your hair prefers cone free conditioner and a silicone serum, why not do that?

because I dont like to waste product, I have several conditioners with cones laying around, and because I live at two different locations, I cant keep the same "routine" every time. I also am tight on cash because I lost my job again. So i need to use what is in front of me at the moment. I also had no idea this routine would be any different for my hair either. I never thought there would be a difference in using a non cone conditioner with a cone oil vs a cone conditioner with a cone oil. I had the impression that not using cones in my conditioner would have the same effect as a conditioner with cones as long as I was using the oil with cones. But I guess I was wrong.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

Sometimes things really don't seem to make sense! I actually use mostly cone-free conditioner, then silicone serum.... As little sense as it seems to make, it seems to work. I'm not sure if it's the cone-free part that's actually helpful in the conditioner for me though. I think it's something else about it that just makes my hair feel good. But the coney serum is what makes it stupidly easy to detangle.

Yeah! That about it. It justdoesnt make sense, but if my hair prefers cones in oils and not conditioner, then thats it! I just need to run out of the cone conditioner I have first before buying something new.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

I've recently eliminated my acidic rinse to see if I can drop it and it was fine for a few days but I'm tangling more now - the little gluey-ends tangles - so I'm going to try going back and seeing if that makes a difference. I'll report back with results.

For me, I have more success with light silicone in rinse out conditioner than in non-cone conditioner, but I can't say that I've yet found a product that gives me magic hair ;) Tangles, with this fineness and at this length are simply reality for me. They're better when my hair is all one length, no layers. The silicone I seem to do well with is bis-aminopropyl-dimethicone - I stick with that. For some reason polyquats make for more grabbiness, although I'm stumped as to why.

All these determinations I've made for myself have been over time trial and error observations and educated guesses - it takes a long time. It sounds like you haven't quite nailed your list of best practices and ingredients, but that you're circling the wagons on them! Keep process-of-eliminating the options - you're gaining ground :)

You may never know 'scientifically' why something works or doesn't, but pinpointing the hits and misses through observation is all you need for a way forward. Keep in mind too that climate, ambient temperature, humidity/dryness, and seasonal variability can have a huge impact on hair behaviour - as well as water quality of course. I sometimes think some of my tangle issues stem from where specifically I live in the world - that's not changing anytime soon so I'm working around it :p

TRue dat!

Im trying to figure out still if ACV rinses are a necessary for me. I just cant do it if its going to smell like that, my boyfriend will throw a fit lol I went without ACV for a month or two and didnt notice a huge difference, but before I was doing it with every wash. I just dont know with ACV rinses.

[school of fish]

TRue dat!

Im trying to figure out still if ACV rinses are a necessary for me. I just cant do it if its going to smell like that, my boyfriend will throw a fit lol I went without ACV for a month or two and didnt notice a huge difference, but before I was doing it with every wash. I just dont know with ACV rinses.

Yes, found the same with ACV - it worked but I didn't care for the scent which did linger after drying even in the minute quantities I was using. Any acidic agent has been equally succesful for me though - lemon juice worked and the scent didn't stick around the same as ACV, but I ended up going with citric acid powder mainly because not only is it completely scent-free, but honestly I found it easier than the other options to mix up every morning when I'm barely sentient :p

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

Yes, found the same with ACV - it worked but I didn't care for the scent which did linger after drying even in the minute quantities I was using. Any acidic agent has been equally succesful for me though - lemon juice worked and the scent didn't stick around the same as ACV, but I ended up going with citric acid powder mainly because not only is it completely scent-free, but honestly I found it easier than the other options to mix up every morning when I'm barely sentient :p

Can you get that in person anywhere? Im tight on cash and have no idea how much something like that is. Its just a powder right? So youd mix with water and then use like youd use ACV?

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

Looked it up, its at walmart. Goodie.

[school of fish]

You found it before I could reply back, haha!! I got mine at the health food shop, but I think you can also get it at the grocery store in spices or canning supplies.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

You found it before I could reply back, haha!! I got mine at the health food shop, but I think you can also get it at the grocery store in spices or canning supplies.

Ok ill be sure to look. Does white vinegar have the same smell? I just washed my hair again, did the same SLS, silicone free conditioner, ACV and then seal with silicone and now I just need to wait for it to dry and see what happens.
I also seem to get less velcro sticky ends when I braid instead of bunning.. dont know if you experience the same. Our hair seems very similar so I figure I would ask.

[school of fish]

Ok ill be sure to look. Does white vinegar have the same smell? I just washed my hair again, did the same SLS, silicone free conditioner, ACV and then seal with silicone and now I just need to wait for it to dry and see what happens.
I also seem to get less velcro sticky ends when I braid instead of bunning.. dont know if you experience the same. Our hair seems very similar so I figure I would ask.

Well... I don't braid that often, and when I do I leave more tail than braid ;D But a side braid is what I do when I know I'm in for vigorus dance practice - it does tame it somewhat. I can tell you for sure that my hair tangles and velcros even when contained in a bun - although it's more of a stick-together kind of tangle than caught-in-a-windstorm kind of tangle, if that makes sense. I also learned a long time ago that my hair HATES damp bunning - guaranteed velcro tangles and an unpleasant comb-out after a damp bunning!

ETA - I find white vinegar does still leave a slight vinegar smell in the hair. Different than ACV, but still vinegar.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

Well... I don't braid that often, and when I do I leave more tail than braid ;D But a side braid is what I do when I know I'm in for vigorus dance practice - it does tame it somewhat. I can tell you for sure that my hair tangles and velcros even when contained in a bun - although it's more of a stick-together kind of tangle than caught-in-a-windstorm kind of tangle, if that makes sense. I also learned a long time ago that my hair HATES damp bunning - guaranteed velcro tangles and an unpleasant comb-out after a damp bunning!

ETA - I find white vinegar does still leave a slight vinegar smell in the hair. Different than ACV, but still vinegar.

Yes, my tangles are the same. My hair is like cobwebs. Hard and sticky. The tangles arent genuine tangles, its almost like I got food in my hair.. LOL.
My hair has just finished drying pretty much, and it feels 100% better. I feel it has something to do with hard water as well, DBF lives in DTLA and the water there is harder than where I live. Something to do with cones, the ACV and hard water.
Dang, ill have to get a jar of citric acid for DBF house then. Even with chelating my hair was not happy, so I probably need the rinses too.

[school of fish]

Yes, my tangles are the same. My hair is like cobwebs. Hard and sticky. The tangles arent genuine tangles, its almost like I got food in my hair.. LOL.
My hair has just finished drying pretty much, and it feels 100% better. I feel it has something to do with hard water as well, DBF lives in DTLA and the water there is harder than where I live. Something to do with cones, the ACV and hard water.
Dang, ill have to get a jar of citric acid for DBF house then. Even with chelating my hair was not happy, so I probably need the rinses too.

Wow, yes! It does sound like our hair behaves really similarly!!! Cobweb hair, tangles that aren't real tangles but more like something is stuck in it - that's me right there. And yet paradoxically mine is so slippery at the same time it won't hold an updo or curls for any length of time :p

I'm going to go back to my rinses starting tomorrow to see what difference I find, if any. My tangles aren't awful, they're just more right now. I was hoping to have been able to skip that rinse step but maybe not...

[spidermom]

I always liked the results of using a very small amount of silicone serum instead of a conditioner containing silicone. It seemed like the line between just enough and too much was very thin, and I could precisely control the amount of serum I was using.

Also CWC can cause Velcro ends to the max. This is because one of them has a positive charge and the other has a negative charge, and if both are on your hair at the same time, the molecules stick together.

[Groovy Granny]

There is really no waste...if a shampoo or conditioner aren't working on your hair you can use it for body soap or shave lotion....and some leave ins make great moisturizers/lotions.

In all my years the only thing I ever threw out was 'shea moisture yucca and baoab'
To me the fragrance was gross and would not fade; it still makes me nauseous just thinking about it :puke: lol

[pailin]

I vote for citric acid too; easy and no smell. But go ahead and try white vinegar - should work too. I found it much more tolerable than ACV; the ACV smell lingered until my next wash and smelled disgusting to me. White vinegar kind of made my hair smell like pickles, to me at least. Much less objectionable, but I still didn't care for it. I got my citric acid at a baking supply place, but I'm not in the US. I've heard it's sold with canning supplies.

[school of fish]

Reporting back on reinstating the acidic rinse - tangling is much reduced and hair looks and feels better. Guess I can't eliminate that step after all ;) At least I know now for sure!

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

I always liked the results of using a very small amount of silicone serum instead of a conditioner containing silicone. It seemed like the line between just enough and too much was very thin, and I could precisely control the amount of serum I was using.

Also CWC can cause Velcro ends to the max. This is because one of them has a positive charge and the other has a negative charge, and if both are on your hair at the same time, the molecules stick together.

That seems to also be the case for me as well. I will not be trying CWC any time, but good to know, never knew about that.



There is really no waste...if a shampoo or conditioner aren't working on your hair you can use it for body soap or shave lotion....and some leave ins make great moisturizers/lotions.

In all my years the only thing I ever threw out was 'shea moisture yucca and baoab'
To me the fragrance was gross and would not fade; it still makes me nauseous just thinking about it :puke: lol

My skin is very sensitive, so using a conditioner as lotion or body wash isn't really an option for me. I shave dry/water only, and I don't use body soap. Water only. It sucks but my skin prefers it. Products touch my hair and nothing else. When it comes to skin care, everything is medical grade or made for sensitive skin/non scented.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

I vote for citric acid too; easy and no smell. But go ahead and try white vinegar - should work too. I found it much more tolerable than ACV; the ACV smell lingered until my next wash and smelled disgusting to me. White vinegar kind of made my hair smell like pickles, to me at least. Much less objectionable, but I still didn't care for it. I got my citric acid at a baking supply place, but I'm not in the US. I've heard it's sold with canning supplies.

Hmmmm DBF might like the smell of pickles more. He likes to hang out in the bathroom and talk to me while I shower. But he already gives me looks when I tell him I use ACV in my hair LOL so he might not see a difference. I'll probably try the citric acid then.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

I'm curious though, is there a negative to doing these rinses every wash? Should I not be doing these with every wash?