Sheen vs. Shine in Hair

[likelikepenny]

I apologize for this long post, but this is a subject of great interest to me.

I've always loved my curls, my only issue was that my hair wasn't long enough and it was never shiny enough. After having an interesting conversation with Arctic over in the Random Hair Thoughts Megathread, I decided to make a thread about this.

My original question was if fine hair tends to be shinier than course hair. I'm still unclear on this but the reasoning behind it is the same as straight hair vs. curly hair. Straight hair tends to be shinier because it has more surface for light to bounce off of, where curly hair forces the light to bend, resulting in less shine.

I knew porosity also plays a role in shine, low porosity tends to be shinier than high porosity because the cuticles are closed, causing the light to bounce off more easily.

Arctic suggested the LOIS hair typing system to help me understand better and it was a very interesting read.

I had to google sheen vs. shine because I've always seen them used interchangeably, but to my surprise, they're not the same thing.

Shine is a sharp reflection of light.
Sheen is a dull or diffused reflection of light.

I have very sheeny hair, but only shiny when I flat iron. I found out that this has to do with the following, conflicting factors I found from researching:

- Hair Shape (oval, circular, ellipse)
- The kinkiness of the hair (not exclusive to only curly or coily hair)
- Colour (the darker the shinier)

Hair Shape: To my surprise, elliptical shaped hair, typically found in ethnic hair, is actually the shiniest (when stretched) because of it's flat shape. Oval (typically caucasian) is second shiniest, and circular (typically asian) is least shiny.

Colour: Lighter colours allow light to pass through rather than reflecting it back, therefore, darker hair colours make hair appear shinier.

Kinkiness: The more twists and turns in your hair strand, the less shiny your hair. Hair that clumps together (curly) tends to be shinier because it makes all the hair go in one direction, making it easier for light to be reflected.

My question is, is it possible for sheeny hair to become shiny? My hair is very sheeny, dark, and elliptical however it is kinky. My hair clumps together quite well however, so wouldn't this overcome the kinkiness? Sure it wouldn't be as shiny as someone with no kinks, but I feel like it can and should be above the level of sheen now. On rare occasions, I've seen sections of my hair that are shiny, but I don't know what's different. Is there a magic treatment that will fill in the kinks of my hair?

I would love if people from different textures and hair colours would weigh in on your thoughts. I would especially love more scientific explanation if possible.

Sources:
http://blackgirllonghair.com/2011/11/is-shiny-hair-possible-for-all-textures/
https://www.curlynikkiforums.com/forum/naturally-curly-hair/transitioning-to-natural-hair/34016-what-s-the-difference-between-sheeny-and-shiny-hair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEC6xhXbPCo
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/whats-the-difference-between-sheen-and-shine.319657/
https://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/learn/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-l-o-i-s-hair-typing-system-si/

[Deborah]

'Sheeny' is not a word, so your post may confuse people. In the dictionary shine and sheen are synonyms, possibly another cause for confusion.

[sumidha]

I have no scientific back up for this, but I'm pretty sure that generally coarse hair is shinier than fine hair. Fine hair often seems to have a diffuse glow, whereas coarse hair has sharper shine reflecting off more distinct individual thicker hair strands. Which is I think what you're talking about with shine vs sheen?

Unfortunately I have no suggestions as to how to make your hair shinier. I mean, you've identified the elements you need for shine, but I'm not sure what you'd do to enhance them in your own hair...

[EssentialJo]

This is interesting, likelikepenny. When I think of trying to make sheeny hair shiny, the only things that come to mind is what you put on the hair (gels, oils, more light :)). To me, the difference between the two are driven by actions. Couldn't any hair have sheeny vs shiny days?

I've ever heard about the more inherent drivers like cross-section shape of hair strands or cuticle smoothness that lend more toward hair tendency to reflect light one way or another. If you were more interested in changing a hair's tendency to be more reflective in the permanent (or at least long term) sense, it seems you would literally have to change the properties of the hair shaft. That brings to mind the effect you get from flat ironing, relaxing, or even the processed curls that were popular in the 80's. The only thing with these options are questions on sustainability for the hair.

My heart of hearts hunch is that there is some botanical that exists out there that is safe, nourishing, and makes hair unbelievably shiny with some real degree of permanence. :)

[Hairkay]

Hmm, I've got more of shine that's why I noticed that I've got low porosity hair. My lil sis has a sheen. I describe sheen as a soft glow. Some will get more of a shine with some hair products. Others may not see a difference at all.

[hayheadsbird]

'Sheeny' is not a word, so your post may confuse people. In the dictionary shine and sheen are synonyms, possibly another cause for confusion.
Language is constantly evolving. Shine and sheen are being used here to describe two different but similar ways hair reflects light, just as likelikepenny already said. We have even been given us all the info needed to distinguish between the two, so I think when folk read it any confusion would be cleared up. Sheeny is actually a word I would use anyway, and it's an intuitive adaption of vocabulary, so I'd expect most people could work out meaning from context.





My question is, is it possible for sheeny hair to become shiny? My hair is very sheeny, dark, and elliptical however it is kinky. My hair clumps together quite well however, so wouldn't this overcome the kinkiness? Sure it wouldn't be as shiny as someone with no kinks, but I feel like it can and should be above the level of sheen now. On rare occasions, I've seen sections of my hair that are shiny, but I don't know what's different. Is there a magic treatment that will fill in the kinks of my hair?

I would love if people from different textures and hair colours would weigh in on your thoughts. I would especially love more scientific explanation if possible.

Sources:
http://blackgirllonghair.com/2011/11/is-shiny-hair-possible-for-all-textures/
https://www.curlynikkiforums.com/forum/naturally-curly-hair/transitioning-to-natural-hair/34016-what-s-the-difference-between-sheeny-and-shiny-hair
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEC6xhXbPCo
https://longhaircareforum.com/threads/whats-the-difference-between-sheen-and-shine.319657/

I'd think if hair was sheeny then shine could come. Either through use of product, or a lot of patients to grow back health of hair/close cuticles/ aligned curl patterns.

I learned loads reading those articles, looks like my hair is low porosity, with more oval than round strands.

The kinkiness is the part I'm a bit stuck on. My hairs kinda 2a/1c. If I examine individual hairs I find the kinks in my most course hairs. But not so kinky in the rest of my course hair or the few medium or the scattering of fragile find hair found round my hairline.

My hair is a mid to dark brown naturally, and has henna over most of it. It tends towards shiny and in poor lighting will have more sheen.

I changed my shampoo and conditioner about 6 weeks ago. I think it has had an influence shine, so I'm thinking product might help.

[likelikepenny]

Thanks everyone for commenting.


EssentialJo, I believe it should/is possible to make sheeny hair shiny without permanently altering the hair shaft, I just have to figure out more of what drives it.


Sumhida,I never thought that course hair would be shinier than fine hair but that makes sense.

[likelikepenny]

I'd think if hair was sheeny then shine could come. Either through use of product, or a lot of patients to grow back health of hair/close cuticles/ aligned curl patterns.

I learned loads reading those articles, looks like my hair is low porosity, with more oval than round strands.

The kinkiness is the part I'm a bit stuck on. My hairs kinda 2a/1c. If I examine individual hairs I find the kinks in my most course hairs. But not so kinky in the rest of my course hair or the few medium or the scattering of fragile find hair found round my hairline.

My hair is a mid to dark brown naturally, and has henna over most of it. It tends towards shiny and in poor lighting will have more sheen.

I changed my shampoo and conditioner about 6 weeks ago. I think it has had an influence shine, so I'm thinking product might help.

This is interesting, I find that when I stretch my hair completely and look at it, it's some of the shiniest hair I've seen, but when I've only pulled it back in a bun, it has a sparkly sheen as described in the lois system as wiry (I've added the link in the sources). I suppose I'll have to keep researching and experimenting.

[embee]

I resisted reading this thread because the word "sheeny" is also an older ethnic slur - my dad was into ethnic slurs big time. :( I'm happy to see that's not how the word is being used.

[ephemeri]

I don't think there any magic treatments. Silicones seem to be a popular and easy way to increase shine but it looks like you already use them.

Henna is known to increase shine. I think cassia as well if you don't want the redness reflecting in sunlight.

[Crystawni]

I grow all the colours from white to black, have a fair few textures, and find my virgin, fine, low porosity hair has both sheen and shine (the white streaks often over-expose in my pics, but they're shiny like the rest). And to mess with the lighter the colour thing,
Colour: Lighter colours allow light to pass through rather than reflecting it back, therefore, darker hair colours make hair appear shinier. well, my silvers are the sparkliest. :shrug: Along with what's already been mentioned, all I can say is retaining moisture may help, as well as coating the higher porosity stuff with moist-looking serums and oils.

[Arctic]

I resisted reading this thread because the word "sheeny" is also an older ethnic slur - my dad was into ethnic slurs big time. :( I'm happy to see that's not how the word is being used.

Oh that's unfortunate. Would "sheen" still be ok word to use, if mods will change the title? Apart from title I think the context of the thread will diminish any negative connotations, I hope.

***

As for sheen vs shine, in the LOIS hair typing system the difference is made perfectly clear and it makes sense for anyone who's read about LOIS. According to LOIS (which is geared more towards curly and hyper curly hair) there are different hair textures, and characteristics to these textures are given. One of the characteristics is how this particular texture reflects light, and the terms shine and sheen come very handy in this.

I personally found it very eye opening when read about the different textures and how they reflect light, and it helped me to learn to love my coarse, wiry, partially kinky hairs more - these hair have a sparkly looking light reflecting quality. One can go to very detailed levels with what kind of shine/sheen/sparkle there is, but at the end of the day what I took home with me is, that there are different kinds of shiny* hair. One is not better than another. (*Shiny here used as an umbrella term for hair that reflects light in some way.) Even if the hair type has more sheen than shine my eye registers it as a shine.

As for F vs. C I do not think this has much to do with shine (again shine used as umbrella term). Sure shiny, straight F hair can have different shine than shiny, straight coarse hair or shiny, kinky-wiry, wavy, coarse hair. They can all still be shiny. Shiny F hair especially when straighter seems to have almost liquid look to it, as the individual hairs "melt" visually into eachother. With shiny, coarse hair the individual hairs are more visible but each can still have blinding shine. Kinky-wiry, wavy, coarse hair (I have lot of these) can have a sparkly shine, like disco ball. :D All are shiny, just different.

I personally think that what kind of shine/sheen hair type naturally has can't be changed, I mean you can't change your genes or the stuff that grows from your scalp (assuming one is healthy and gets all the needed nutrients, enough calories, etc.). One can of course enhance shine with various hair care methods and products, but that is more surface level stuff. And one can avoid damaging their hair (and trim off damaged, old hair), which will over time improve the quality, which might affect on how shiny hair is.

ETA: I am not aware of any methods of "filling in kinks". Kinks in hair are torsion twists of the hair shaft, I don't think there is anything one can do (other than straighten the hair but while that might make hair shinier looking, the torsion twists would still be there).

[ephemeri]

I personally think that what kind of shine/sheen hair type naturally has can't be changed, I mean you can't change your genes or the stuff that grows from your scalp (assuming one is healthy and gets all the needed nutrients, enough calories, etc.). One can of course enhance shine with various hair care methods and products, but that is more surface level stuff. And one can avoid damaging their hair (and trim off damaged, old hair), which will over time improve the quality, which might have affect on how shiny hair is.

Agreed. IMHO, I think the most important thing is just making sure the hair is as healthy as possible and then learning to accept it for whatever it is. :o

[Arctic]

Agreed. IMHO, I think the most important thing is just making sure the hair is as healthy as possible and then learning to accept it for whatever it is. :o

Yes, that's my view as well.

Penny I think your hair looks awesome in the photos I've seen :inlove: But in case you base your assessment of shinyness on photos, the ones I've seen look like taken without flash. Flash can artificially give a megawatt shine to hair, and for example my own photos are often take with flash - not because of the shine enhancing but because it gives sharper photos and shows more detail in my not optimally lit (for photography purposes) home. Remember that photos you see are not always true to how hair looks in real conditions.

[- Lizzy -]

I have always been envious that black/dark brown hair looked so shiny (Though I like having lighter locks)

[Andthetalltrees]

This is something I don't usually think about regarding my hair, I've never really cared about having shiny hair :shrug:. However My hair is straightish, Coarse, Quite low porosity and dark blonde. It's somewhat shiny, But not remarkably so. It seems to be shinier when It's freshly washed

[H o n є y ❤]

Kinky hair generally has more sheen than shine. That's just the way it is.

[mizukitty]

Very interesting thread! I love hair and science, preferably together :D

From my own observations of my own hair I can hypothesize that different hair porosities reflect light differently. This just has to do with the basics of light reflection!

https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/system/images/images/000/000/045/embed/Types-of-reflection20150805-30600-vm00fe.jpg?1447040426

Smoother surfaces such as polished metal, glass, etc will reflect at pretty much the same angle - making the light bounce off very "sharply", causing a "shine."

Less smooth surfaces will diffuse the light, making it look glowy and have more of a sheen.

I see this first hand with my hair all the time. My canopy is porous, the strands are bumpy and rough, and definitely glows more than it shines. However, the hair underneath is reallllly fine and smooth, low porosity even, and these hairs almost look electric when sun hits them.

Another thought: silicones in products are used to make the surface of your hair smoother for a variety of reasons. Coating each strand evenly also makes light reflect more "sharply." This is likely why they're used in "shine serums."

[littlestarface]

Very interesting thread! I love hair and science, preferably together :D

From my own observations of my own hair I can hypothesize that different hair porosities reflect light differently. This just has to do with the basics of light reflection!

https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/system/images/images/000/000/045/embed/Types-of-reflection20150805-30600-vm00fe.jpg?1447040426

Smoother surfaces such as polished metal, glass, etc will reflect at pretty much the same angle - making the light bounce off very "sharply", causing a "shine."

Less smooth surfaces will diffuse the light, making it look glowy and have more of a sheen.

I see this first hand with my hair all the time. My canopy is porous, the strands are bumpy and rough, and definitely glows more than it shines. However, the hair underneath is reallllly fine and smooth, low porosity even, and these hairs almost look electric when sun hits them.

Another thought: silicones in products are used to make the surface of your hair smoother for a variety of reasons. Coating each strand evenly also makes light reflect more "sharply." This is likely why they're used in "shine serums."

My strands are bumpy and when I wet it it gets wet fast like one dunk in the shower an its all wet. My hair is not shiny unfortunately,it's matte.

I use that disapropyl dimethcone in my conditioner and henna so unfortunately for me cones n henna don't give me shine.

[Nymphe]

This is something I don't usually think about regarding my hair, I've never really cared about having shiny hair :shrug:.

I never cared about shine either, even when I was younger. Since my hair was nothing like the hair featured in commercials, it was a non-issue.

Have you ever made ribbon curls for gifts? That is how my hair grows. If you held a strand taut, the top view looks normal, but from the side, it damn near disappears. It is still considered medium, but I treat it like fine hair because of that flatness. My coils and kinks behave like an old-fashioned telephone cord, so when the strands clump a certain way, I get shiny coils, but they are too scattered and numerous - bits of light among a dark background - for me to care.

Arctic, I have to take pics without the flash; it makes my hair look extrasparkly and messy.

[truepeacenik]

'Sheeny' is not a word, so your post may confuse people. In the dictionary shine and sheen are synonyms, possibly another cause for confusion.

We create plenty of terms here. It's understood. A sheen is like the reflections on Raven or pigeon feathers, or the rainbow in oil and water. Shine is more direct, stronger, and sometimes brighter.


Also, sheenie is indeed a slang /slur word, and we should not use it here. It's used for my people.

[truepeacenik]

Kinky hair generally has more sheen than shine. That's just the way it is.
Because of diffusion, right? Where light makes a harsher mark, curls get the diffuse light of a misty day.

[Hairkay]

I never cared about shine either, even when I was younger. Since my hair was nothing like the hair featured in commercials, it was a non-issue.

Have you ever made ribbon curls for gifts? That is how my hair grows. If you held a strand taut, the top view looks normal, but from the side, it damn near disappears. It is still considered medium, but I treat it like fine hair because of that flatness. My coils and kinks behave like an old-fashioned telephone cord, so when the strands clump a certain way, I get shiny coils, but they are too scattered and numerous - bits of light among a dark background - for me to care.

Arctic, I have to take pics without the flash; it makes my hair look extrasparkly and messy.

I think my hair is too shiny with flash too. Sometimes it looks as if I've slicked it down with gel or some sort of hair grease when I haven't. My hair blowdried or brushed out loose doesn't seem to shine. Shine comes out when it is left to clump, twisted or plaited or when it is brushed and tied down into a ponytail. My lil sis's hair looks the same clumped or brushed or plaited and tied up. Her sheen stays the same.

[Kat-Rinnè Naido]

I take my pictures without flash or else the colour is too light and the clumps are not quite visible. I don't focus on hair typing. As with healthier hair I have noticed I have both waves, and some loose and more smaller curls. The main reason I needed the hair typing was for my profile.

In my opinion. Hair is there to be enjoyed. When you start making peace with your hair, treat it gently and keep it healthy your hair might well surprise you. Also a lot of members here have mentioned that hair texture changes with age. So enjoy your hair and good luck :grouphug:

[Aredhel]

My hair isn't that shiny IRL either, sometimes the flash makes my hair look unrealistically shiny too when it's really just got a gentle shine. :) I prefer taking photos without the flash anyway because the flash tends to over exaggerate any sliver of scalp that might be peeking out. ;)

[Nymphe]

I think my hair is too shiny with flash too. Sometimes it looks as if I've slicked it down with gel or some sort of hair grease when I haven't. My hair blowdried or brushed out loose doesn't seem to shine. Shine comes out when it is left to clump, twisted or plaited or when it is brushed and tied down into a ponytail. My lil sis's hair looks the same clumped or brushed or plaited and tied up. Her sheen stays the same.

Most of the time, all I see is sheen. I try to use natural light for pics since it gives a more accurate view, but even then, I get shine thatbis not there IRL.

[meteor]

Very interesting thread! I love hair and science, preferably together :D

From my own observations of my own hair I can hypothesize that different hair porosities reflect light differently. This just has to do with the basics of light reflection!

https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/system/images/images/000/000/045/embed/Types-of-reflection20150805-30600-vm00fe.jpg?1447040426

Smoother surfaces such as polished metal, glass, etc will reflect at pretty much the same angle - making the light bounce off very "sharply", causing a "shine."

Less smooth surfaces will diffuse the light, making it look glowy and have more of a sheen.

[...]


^ Agreed. :agree:


Shine is a surface property, so the structure and condition of the cuticle is a really important factor here. Lower porosity (fewer cracks and holes in the cuticle layer), wider cuticle cells, less steep cuticular inclination, narrower cuticular interval can create smoother surface that will reflect light better -> thus creating more shine.

A smoothing film (e.g. well dispersed thin layer of silicones/oils) can add perception of shine on more porous hair, as well as on textures that break up smooth surface area.
There are obviously other factors, like darker hair colors, etc... but too long to discuss here - I posted a long list of studies I found related to shine here: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=136845&p=3193079&viewfull=1#post3193079

[Hairkay]

Most of the time, all I see is sheen. I try to use natural light for pics since it gives a more accurate view, but even then, I get shine thatbis not there IRL.

Yes on bright sunny days my hair looks shiniest. Since I've put aside the brush I can reduce the effect. If I should brush it with hair tied back then there may be the odd comment about what product I put in my hair.

[likelikepenny]

I'm really happy this thread took off with so many interesting posts and opinions.

I apologize about the racial slur and assure that it was unintentional as I had never heard it used in a derogative context before.

I guess this is just another thing I'll have to accept about my hair, but I can't lie and say I'm not disappointed. I've been examining my hair closely lately, and now knowing that my hair will forever be this way is kind of depressing. Oh well, just another flaw (to me) to get over.

[EssentialJo]

[QUOTE=likelikepenny;3400721]Thanks everyone for commenting.


EssentialJo, I believe it should/is possible to make sheeny hair shiny without permanently altering the hair shaft, I just have to figure out more of what drives it.

Well you definitely got my interest! I'm going to follow this thread. :)

Incidentally, I saw an old post about a super amazing gloss by a member named meteor. It involves knox gelatin so you would have to be open to protein. The results for one poster were spectacular!
It was this thread: "Re: Put your hair photos here 'cos you really want to...."
And this number #5723; page 573. The recipe follows in additional posts.

Meteor and Fellow Members, I hope I am honoring discussion forum etiquette by pointing out past posts and you don't mind the sharing in this manner. Please let me know if I over-step. :)

Much luck, likelikepenny, in your quest for shine. Many more will also benefit from any your success.

[EssentialJo]

Apologies for additional post, All,
In the above, my response starts from, "Well you definitely got my interest..."

Also, likelikepenny, I hope you don't give up too quickly. You might be on to something. :)

[likelikepenny]

Incidentally, I saw an old post about a super amazing gloss by a member named meteor. It involves knox gelatin so you would have to be open to protein. The results for one poster were spectacular!
It was this thread: "Re: Put your hair photos here 'cos you really want to...."
And this number #5723; page 573. The recipe follows in additional posts.

Meteor and Fellow Members, I hope I am honoring discussion forum etiquette by pointing out past posts and you don't mind the sharing in this manner. Please let me know if I over-step. :)

Much luck, likelikepenny, in your quest for shine. Many more will also benefit from any your success.

Actually, this may be the key to me. Once time, I did a gelatin treatment with an ACV rinse and had the shiniest most defined hair of my life. I have some packets in the pantry, maybe it's time to experiment a little.

[meteor]

^ Great point about gelatin. :thumbsup: I think hydrolyzed proteins can help, particularly in a high porosity situation, because smaller/medium-sized proteins can get under cuticle and temporarily patch-repair and they also adsorb, adding a coating (I found a metaphor of egg whites solidifying helpful for imagining some glossy shine and the rigidity). If protein feels drying on hair, I'd just follow up with moisture or simply add humectants (e.g. honey) and a bit of oil straight into the gelatin treatment, if you want to save time. It's pretty YMMV, and many people don't like protein at all, even smaller size (more on proteins - here (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/09/more-about-protein.html)and here (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2015/10/protein-101-lots-of-basic-information.html)).

Also, light oils that coat hair can add shine - Wendy of Science-y hair blog had a good picture to show it in her article here: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/06/oils-which-ones-soak-in-vs-coat-hair.html)

And chelating is usually a great way of bringing back natural shine right away. Many of us have hair that was exposed to water with lots of dulling mineral residue (chlorine, copper, iron...), so chelators high up on the ingredients lists (e.g. EDTA, citric acid, etc) in shampoos or chelating packs can be of great help. If you have a lot of residue to deal with and are having trouble finding effective chelating shampoos in stores, I'd look locally or online for pre-treatments that are used specifically in salons (e.g. Redken Pre-Art), because minerals in water can interfere dramatically with chemical services like coloring, so salons tend to have effective chelating products on hand. Chelating can dry out hair if used too often though.

[Mrstran]

I'm not really sure about what makes hair more sheen vs shiny. It seems others have more insight. What I do know is only from experience. Personally, my hair has large waves and is medium thickness. Color brown with redish undertones and my natural 3 inch roots are a very dark ashy blonde. Both are incredibly flat with no shine or sheen once so ever. The only way I can get it is by loading my hair up with product. Not sure why.

[truepeacenik]

I'm really happy this thread took off with so many interesting posts and opinions.

I apologize about the racial slur and assure that it was unintentional as I had never heard it used in a derogative context before.

I guess this is just another thing I'll have to accept about my hair, but I can't lie and say I'm not disappointed. I've been examining my hair closely lately, and now knowing that my hair will forever be this way is kind of depressing. Oh well, just another flaw (to me) to get over.

I was gambling on "didn't know." I'm all about education! Mostly, I run across the word in text. And even Jewish writers use it, when casting a character as anti Semitic. The use of Y made it clear that you meant an adverbial form of an adjective.
(Whoa, am I nerdy)

I think that both light effects are beautiful, and they can happen in tandem in certain texture combos. Or, the upper edge of a curl can reflect, while the areas around refract. Almost like the representations of auras.
I am thinking of my first boyfriend's hair. So black it reflected blue and white. But it diffused quickly to this shimmery sheen. Like an oily water puddle.
Straight, coarse, Native/First Nations/Mayan hair genes.

[Cherriezzzzz]

This is interesting, I find that when I stretch my hair completely and look at it, it's some of the shiniest hair I've seen, but when I've only pulled it back in a bun, it has a sparkly sheen as described in the lois system as wiry (I've added the link in the sources). I suppose I'll have to keep researching and experimenting.

Sparkly sheen! (Swoon!) I know exactly what you mean when you wrote that! I've seen girls with it! I wouldn't change a thing if I were you ;) so pretty and unique! I've to add that shine we mostly see in very young (usually causation) hair girls... that's some shiney hair I've always admired. But young children can have any curl or lack thereof and still be super shiney. It's almost as if they have a mirror like quality to their hair. I believe it has to do with cuticle. It's down right glossy. Have you ever tried Redken all soft cream? Young children have the tightest cuticle (as you do) but they also have the softest! I'd be careful though on your quest for shinier hair because shine is usually associated with weak hair (fine). You don't want to compromise your strong hair for shine :) Try looking for products that soften without build up?

[likelikepenny]

I was gambling on "didn't know." I'm all about education! Mostly, I run across the word in text. And even Jewish writers use it, when casting a character as anti Semitic. The use of Y made it clear that you meant an adverbial form of an adjective.
(Whoa, am I nerdy)

I think that both light effects are beautiful, and they can happen in tandem in certain texture combos. Or, the upper edge of a curl can reflect, while the areas around refract. Almost like the representations of auras.
I am thinking of my first boyfriend's hair. So black it reflected blue and white. But it diffused quickly to this shimmery sheen. Like an oily water puddle.
Straight, coarse, Native/First Nations/Mayan hair genes.

I'm all about education as well, thank you :).

His hair sounds beautiful! I never thought of the different types of shine curls could reflect, but it makes sense. Sometimes, the top part of my curl will be super shiny and the rest will just have a natural sheen.

[likelikepenny]

Sparkly sheen! (Swoon!) I know exactly what you mean when you wrote that! I've seen girls with it! I wouldn't change a thing if I were you ;) so pretty and unique! I've to add that shine we mostly see in very young (usually causation) hair girls... that's some shiney hair I've always admired. But young children can have any curl or lack thereof and still be super shiney. It's almost as if they have a mirror like quality to their hair. I believe it has to do with cuticle. It's down right glossy. Have you ever tried Redken all soft cream? Young children have the tightest cuticle (as you do) but they also have the softest! I'd be careful though on your quest for shinier hair because shine is usually associated with weak hair (fine). You don't want to compromise your strong hair for shine :) Try looking for products that soften without build up?

I agree with you on the tight cuticle of children, but most of them have very fine hair, hence the term "baby fine". Hopefully I can find something, and if not, I'll have to learn to appreciate my own natural sheen.

[likelikepenny]

^ Great point about gelatin. :thumbsup: I think hydrolyzed proteins can help, particularly in a high porosity situation, because smaller/medium-sized proteins can get under cuticle and temporarily patch-repair and they also adsorb, adding a coating (I found a metaphor of egg whites solidifying helpful for imagining some glossy shine and the rigidity). If protein feels drying on hair, I'd just follow up with moisture or simply add humectants (e.g. honey) and a bit of oil straight into the gelatin treatment, if you want to save time. It's pretty YMMV, and many people don't like protein at all, even smaller size (more on proteins - here (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/09/more-about-protein.html)and here (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2015/10/protein-101-lots-of-basic-information.html)).

Also, light oils that coat hair can add shine - Wendy of Science-y hair blog had a good picture to show it in her article here: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/06/oils-which-ones-soak-in-vs-coat-hair.html)

And chelating is usually a great way of bringing back natural shine right away. Many of us have hair that was exposed to water with lots of dulling mineral residue (chlorine, copper, iron...), so chelators high up on the ingredients lists (e.g. EDTA, citric acid, etc) in shampoos or chelating packs can be of great help. If you have a lot of residue to deal with and are having trouble finding effective chelating shampoos in stores, I'd look locally or online for pre-treatments that are used specifically in salons (e.g. Redken Pre-Art), because minerals in water can interfere dramatically with chemical services like coloring, so salons tend to have effective chelating products on hand. Chelating can dry out hair if used too often though.

I love your scienc-y posts! They always give me so much insight into hair science :D

[likelikepenny]

Lately, I've been looking into henna. The lawsone (?) molecule binds to the hair, making it thicker/shinier in most cases. I wonder if this would work for me? My reasoning is that it would help fill in some of the kinks in my hair and added with a deep conditioning afterward would leave my hair shinier rather than just it's natural sheen.

Another thing I've been contemplating, is going cone free again. When I first went cone free and used catnip tea with parsley as a conditioner everyday, my hair was actually shiny. Shinier than I had ever seen it.

Silicones tend to dull my natural shine, but I don't think I can grow long with them. When I went cone free for six months, I had to cut off a ton of growth because my ends were so dry and frayed. I think my ends need that extra coating to protect them, especially with my hair being so kinky and fragile.

I have a few options to try I suppose. I'll be sure to update this thread when I try them.

[Dark40]

I could say with my thick natural dark brown hair it is shiny. Right now, I have low porosity. Because, I don't colour that often. But I always knew that all of my life I've have a nice natural gloss to my hair.

[enting]

All I can contribute to this thread is that once I began using shampoo/conditioner with protein, my hair got a whole lot shinier. I'll walk in to the bathroom now and look at the mirror and there is sparkly light reflected off my hair now. A lot of my hair is kinked, but that ends up making it sparkle more than a solid wave of shine, and I am totally okay with that!

Oil gives my hair more of what I think you would call sheen. It helps keep my hair going all the same way and makes my hair not look as dried out, but it never gave my hair that sparkle that protein is now giving me.

[lucid]

I don't get it. Is shiny hair prettier than sheeny hair, or preferred over the other? I have looked at the pictures, and I don't think there is a huge difference, and I certainly don't prefer one over the other. I think shiny hair sometimes can look greasy as well (depending on color and texture) so I have never quite understood the need for extremely shiny hair.

[*Wednesday*]

Wouldn't this be described as having "sheen" or "shine?" Does she have sheen or shine? Thought it meant the same thing.
https://cdn.makeupandbeauty.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Mango-and-Egg-Mask-for-Nourished-and-Shiny-Hair4.jpg

[likelikepenny]

Here's a good example of sheen vs. shine in hair

https://www.google.ca/search?q=sheen+vs+shine+hair&rlz=1C5CHFA_enCA529CA529&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTpOGdjebTAhXnzIMKHYGCDZgQ_AUICigB&biw=805&bih=800#tbm=isch&q=shine+vs+sheen+&imgrc=JjmQgcCgN9VAzM:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=sheen+vs+shine+hair&rlz=1C5CHFA_enCA529CA529&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTpOGdjebTAhXnzIMKHYGCDZgQ_AUICigB&biw=805&bih=800#tbm=isch&q=shine+vs+sheen+&imgrc=JjmQgcCgN9VAzM:

Sheen in hair is more sparkly, whereas shine is more uniform and "glossy".

[Prism]

Also, sheenie is indeed a slang /slur word, and we should not use it here. It's used for my people.

I had to look it up to see which people are your people. And I learned your people are my people. :) Hello from another member of the tribe.

[Nymphe]

Wouldn't this be described as having "sheen" or "shine?" Does she have sheen or shine? Thought it meant the same thing.
https://cdn.makeupandbeauty.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Mango-and-Egg-Mask-for-Nourished-and-Shiny-Hair4.jpg

Think of it in terms of how light reflect from a smooth surface (shine) vs. a uneven one (sheen). Your pic demonstrates shine - healthy, moisturized (or coated) strands gathered together evenly to reflect light. Hair with sheen reflects light, but the light bouncing back to the eye is diffused. Think hard leather (shine) vs soft leather (sheen).

[*Wednesday*]

Sheen in hair is more sparkly, whereas shine is more uniform and "glossy".


Think of it in terms of how light reflect from a smooth surface (shine) vs. a uneven one (sheen). Your pic demonstrates shine - healthy, moisturized (or coated) strands gathered together evenly to reflect light. Hair with sheen reflects light, but the light bouncing back to the eye is diffused. Think hard leather (shine) vs soft leather (sheen).

Thanks. I'm a visual learner. Makes sense.

[enting]

I don't get it. Is shiny hair prettier than sheeny hair, or preferred over the other? I have looked at the pictures, and I don't think there is a huge difference, and I certainly don't prefer one over the other. I think shiny hair sometimes can look greasy as well (depending on color and texture) so I have never quite understood the need for extremely shiny hair.

I don't think either is objectively prettier than the other. I'm pretty sure it's all subjective likes and dislikes. I happen to personally like either, but I also really like very soft hair without shine or sheen, kind of like velvet.

[likelikepenny]

I don't get it. Is shiny hair prettier than sheeny hair, or preferred over the other? I have looked at the pictures, and I don't think there is a huge difference, and I certainly don't prefer one over the other. I think shiny hair sometimes can look greasy as well (depending on color and texture) so I have never quite understood the need for extremely shiny hair.

For me, growing up straight/wavy hair was always coveted along with it's attributes. Shine is one of them. It all depends on your environment and social circles. I'm learning now to appreciate my own natural shine and curls more, but it also fascinates me because of the science behind it.

[likelikepenny]

Updating this thread with a few things I've discovered in hopes that it may help others.

- Cones actually dull my natural shine. I found this to be quite odd as I've always heard cones boost shine rather than dull it.
- Less frizzy = more shiny
- Because less frizz means more shine, moisture is imperative.
- The longer my hair is, the shinier it appears. I'm assuming this is because light has more area to bounce off of.
- Brushing my hair (to slick down my frizzies when putting it in a bun) makes my hair shinier. It makes me wonder what a BBB would do for me.
- Damp oilings = shinier hair (moisture)

I'm quite happy actually knowing my hair can e shinier and that it's not all in my head. I had this same issue with my texture thinking that I was 4c but knowing that I should have some type of curl definition. Not because I didn't think 4c hair is beautiful, I just knew my hair wasn't at it's optimum potential. I still think I can improve the shine in my hair so I'll keep experimenting with it.

[sarahthegemini]

I thought hair that had a 'sheen' was just hair that wasn't outrageously shiny. I have very fine hair that's pretty shiny.

[Aredhel]

I have a feeling that brushing your curls with a BBB may just make them poofy and less shiny Penny, wouldn't it? I just asked my BFF her opinion since her daughter has lovely curls like yours and that's what she believes also. Unless you use it right before you wash your hair, then the poofyness wouldn't matter. The boar bristles may have a rough time getting through the thickness though.

[likelikepenny]

I have a feeling that brushing your curls with a BBB may just make them poofy and less shiny Penny, wouldn't it? I just asked my BFF her opinion since her daughter has lovely curls like yours and that's what she believes also. Unless you use it right before you wash your hair, then the poofyness wouldn't matter. The boar bristles may have a rough time getting through the thickness though.

It probably would. I've just always wanted to brush my hair like straight hair, but I know I'll never be able to. :(

[likelikepenny]

I thought hair that had a 'sheen' was just hair that wasn't outrageously shiny. I have very fine hair that's pretty shiny.

Mhm, there's a thought. I don't want my hair outrageously shiny, just not so dull looking when curly.

[Cherriezzzzz]

This might be a stupid question... But when I once had a perm my hair was... hard to find a term here... not shiny, frizzy etc. I wanted tight curls but my hair couldn't handle the perm. I used a lamenating shine spray once like half a bottle. I had extremely shiny, soft, defined curls! Have you ever tried anything like that? It took me a lot of product though... It was hask pure shine laminator. It didn't make my hair greasy at all with the perm. But afterwards I had to be more careful a little went a long way. Best shine I've ever got :) cheap and at Wal-Mart haha

[*Wednesday*]

I have a 13 year old, his father is from the Dominican Republic. My son inherited his more afro type hair which he likes to wear like Odell Beckham, high with a mohawk. Just the texture of his hair, very dense, tight curls and difficult to get to shine. Even when I put oil in it, or I use Cantu, may have a slight sheen but never shiny.

[likelikepenny]

This might be a stupid question... But when I once had a perm my hair was... hard to find a term here... not shiny, frizzy etc. I wanted tight curls but my hair couldn't handle the perm. I used a lamenating shine spray once like half a bottle. I had extremely shiny, soft, defined curls! Have you ever tried anything like that? It took me a lot of product though... It was hask pure shine laminator. It didn't make my hair greasy at all with the perm. But afterwards I had to be more careful a little went a long way. Best shine I've ever got :) cheap and at Wal-Mart haha

I looked it up but it's been discontinued. :/


I have a 13 year old, his father is from the Dominican Republic. My son inherited his more afro type hair which he likes to wear like Odell Beckham, high with a mohawk. Just the texture of his hair, very dense, tight curls and difficult to get to shine. Even when I put oil in it, or I use Cantu, may have a slight sheen but never shiny.

I find afro hair so interesting. Having it myself, it can be very deceiving and hard to find out it's true nature as there's not a lot of information on it and it's so diverse. I know my hair will never be as shiny as straight hair and thats ok, but I don't think afro hair is inherently meant to be dull or dry and hard to manage.

I'm not looking to change my texture or anything, just simply enhance what I have and also learn more about the science of hair. :)

[*Wednesday*]

I find afro hair so interesting. Having it myself, it can be very deceiving and hard to find out it's true nature as there's not a lot of information on it and it's so diverse. I know my hair will never be as shiny as straight hair and thats ok, but I don't think afro hair is inherently meant to be dull or dry and hard to manage.

I'm not looking to change my texture or anything, just simply enhance what I have and also learn more about the science of hair. :)

I hear you. 😄 Your hair appears to be a looser curl from your pick. His is smaller and tighter. I have to remind him everyday on fully picking out his hair. Putting oil or the Cantu coconut oil cream lightly in his hair and molding the style. I usually have to do his hair every morning.

[likelikepenny]

I hear you. �� Your hair appears to be a looser curl from your pick. His is smaller and tighter. I have to remind him everyday on fully picking out his hair. Putting oil or the Cantu coconut oil cream lightly in his hair and molding the style. I usually have to do his hair every morning.

lol curly hair can be a pain to style sometimes.