PDA

View Full Version : Is this it? Could my terminal length be that short?



Syaoransbear
April 8th, 2017, 04:59 PM
I joined this site in July 16th, 2009, but my hair journey started in 2007. At that time I was wearing clip in hair extensions, straightening my hair daily, and using peroxide to lighten my roots 3 shades about every 3 months. I was stuck at about APL. My goal was a full hemline at waist length.

After reading all the information on the site I started wearing my hair up constantly. I stopped straightening my hair. I wasn't using extensions. I was still dyeing. I had my own professional hair dressing shears I spent a fortune on just for trims because I wouldn't let my hair dresser do it. I was taking hair supplements. I got to about BSL and stalled out for couple years before deciding the only other thing I could do was to stop dyeing.

I grew out my dye. I had a head full of virgin hair that was constantly up. I didn't use heat styling tools. I finally was at waist length. A pitiful excuse for waist length. A few wisps barely made it to waist. My hair has a dramatic taper that seems to start instantly. The thickness of a chunk of hair is 50% less even just 6 inches from my scalp.

I had blood tests taken. I was borderline anemic, so I started taking iron supplements. The wisps made it an inch past waist and that seemed like that was finally the end. I have never made it past that. My hair doesn't seem damaged, it just seems like the taper begins so immediately that only a few strands ever make it to waist length. So I 'maintain' there, even though all that involves is trimming a few wisps like twice a year.

For the last month I have taken up CO washing, but I just can't imagine that will make enough of a difference to get the blunt hemline at waist length I wanted.

So... is that it? Is that my terminal length? Am I done? I feel so frustrated. This has been a long, mostly pointless journey.

Reyesuela
April 8th, 2017, 05:04 PM
For many people--probably 5 to 10% of women--, this is natural terminal length. Whether you want to take drastic measures to get an unnatural terminal length is up to you. And how much you can stretch it is unknown.

sumidha
April 8th, 2017, 05:06 PM
If the taper is natural, and not from damage, which is how it sounds, I think you should be able to examine the shed hairs in your brush or comb and see a bulb at the top end. As in, the hairs are at the end of their tiny hair life cycle and falling out naturally, creating your terminal length.

If that's not right feel free to correct me, hive mind of LHC. :)

Rebel Rebel
April 8th, 2017, 05:56 PM
My hair quickly thins out from the scalp too but I have babyfine hair so it's thin/fine all over. From what you said, you now have healthier virgin hair which is a big deal in my opinion and not pointless. Do you like your hair otherwise besides the length issue? I hope you get some helpful answers.

mousehouse
April 8th, 2017, 06:06 PM
I feel you. I have never been past BSL and my hair tapers a lot after ear-length too. Among other small steps, I quit dying 5 years ago and I keep the heat to a minimum. It doesn't seem fair sometimes when I see someone with hip length hair and they say it only took them 5 years to grow it out from a length shorter than any I've ever had. But, some of your hair has made it to your goal now... whose to say that more can't if you're really careful and don't let any fall off? I feel a little silly giving advice on here because I am just starting out, but..

It'll take a lot of patience and work, but you've already put a bunch of work into your hair anyway, so why don't you start working towards the new goal of thickening up the hemline? Maybe if you cut as much as you grow for a while (ie. keep those long wispies at your waist while some other pieces catch up), it'll start to look a little fuller. This is what I plan to do... grow my wisps as far as they'll go (I know it won't be past waist) and then once they're at a happy length for me... I'll just keep them there and hope that the rest will follow.

dansyl
April 8th, 2017, 06:29 PM
For many people--probably 5 to 10% of women--, this is natural terminal length. Whether you want to take drastic measures to get an unnatural terminal length is up to you. And how much you can stretch it is unknown.

out of curiosity... what kind of drastic measures does it take to get to an unnatural terminal length? Does anyone know what the average terminal length is? I've been thinking about this lately.

Rebeccalaurenxx
April 8th, 2017, 08:03 PM
Id give it another year before claiming terminal but thats just me. You just started taking care of your health issue.
I think as you shed older weaker hairs from when you were not taking iron, you will grow thicker and healthier strands. Because currently you are growing hairs that were made and grown during a period of time when you were lacking some minerals. Does that not sound plausible? Someone can shut me down if they like.
But I would not give up just yet.

Reyesuela
April 8th, 2017, 09:35 PM
out of curiosity... what kind of drastic measures does it take to get to an unnatural terminal length? Does anyone know what the average terminal length is? I've been thinking about this lately.

Average terminal length depends on the area of the scalp. The "edges" of the hair is the shortest, the temples next, and the front of the hair less than the back.

There isn't good data on average terminal length for the back hair, but from historical sources, anything longer than classic is considered "long" among people who don't cut their hair. The Yao women of China, who are in a genetically hair "gifted" (Asians have the longest and fastest growing hair of the three main hair types), seem to max out at knee on average and they don't cut their hair except once in their lives. And these are typical terminal lengths with "fairy tale ends."

As for what you can do, you can dig through Pubmed studies on things that increase hair growth, especially speed. I will be able to probably give real recommendations in a year.

Reyesuela
April 8th, 2017, 09:41 PM
A year ago I would have scoffed at the idea that you can increase your length beyond your genetics/epigenetics say. But I've seen things and know more about epigenetics now, which are malleable by definition.

spidermom
April 8th, 2017, 11:27 PM
Yes, terminal length can be quite short for some people. I've seen it. However, I've also seen a person stuck at the same length for years, then the length began to creep down to longer lengths. Time passes; things change.

CrowningGlory
April 9th, 2017, 01:25 AM
Id give it another year before claiming terminal but thats just me. You just started taking care of your health issue.
I think as you shed older weaker hairs from when you were not taking iron, you will grow thicker and healthier strands. Because currently you are growing hairs that were made and grown during a period of time when you were lacking some minerals. Does that not sound plausible? Someone can shut me down if they like.
But I would not give up just yet.

This. I had shedding from low iron stores and hair thinning from BSL down. Six years on, the thinning isn't as bad as it was, but still there. I can now boast a not too thin hemline at waist, but it's taken a long time to get there.

Treat your hair gently, wear it up, keep taking those supplements and look after your health, and invest in truckloads of patience before deciding 'this is it'.

Kat-Rinnč Naido
April 9th, 2017, 01:46 AM
Hi! A lot of the times poor health and manipulation damage can add a lot of stress to your entire hair growth system. Hang in there maybe try not to cut if there is no damage. As all hair on your hair are not in the same growth phase and you could be just cutting off your growth. Good luck and enjoy your hair growing experience. Sometimes growth sneaks in when you are not even looking.

lapushka
April 9th, 2017, 03:29 AM
I had blood tests taken. I was borderline anemic, so I started taking iron supplements. The wisps made it an inch past waist and that seemed like that was finally the end. I have never made it past that. My hair doesn't seem damaged, it just seems like the taper begins so immediately that only a few strands ever make it to waist length. So I 'maintain' there, even though all that involves is trimming a few wisps like twice a year.

How long has that been? Because at that point it's like starting out from a shaved head, and you need to take that into account. It's like starting all over again, yes. So I wouldn't despair if it hasn't been 3 to 4 years (at least) since that point.

dansyl
April 9th, 2017, 09:11 AM
Average terminal length depends on the area of the scalp. The "edges" of the hair is the shortest, the temples next, and the front of the hair less than the back.

There isn't good data on average terminal length for the back hair, but from historical sources, anything longer than classic is considered "long" among people who don't cut their hair. The Yao women of China, who are in a genetically hair "gifted" (Asians have the longest and fastest growing hair of the three main hair types), seem to max out at knee on average and they don't cut their hair except once in their lives. And these are typical terminal lengths with "fairy tale ends."

As for what you can do, you can dig through Pubmed studies on things that increase hair growth, especially speed. I will be able to probably give real recommendations in a year.

Very interesting! thank you! I tried to google a little and according to pubmed taking biotin supplements for sure helps with regrowing hair that is lost... so i would think it actually would help a little with the speed of your hair growth even if it's minimal.

Aredhel
April 9th, 2017, 09:55 AM
Biotin supplements will only help you if you're deficient in it - which most people are not. A common sign of it is severe hair loss, which it doesn't sound like that's what your problem is.

pili
April 9th, 2017, 11:04 AM
I think Rebeccalaurenxx hit the nail on the head. If it hasn't been long enough since you started getting your nutrient deficiencies corrected, then what you are seeing is the hair that grew under poor conditions. Give it more time. You may still have a shorter than most terminal, but you won't know until the new growth has time to move down.

Syaoransbear
April 9th, 2017, 11:46 AM
How long has that been? Because at that point it's like starting out from a shaved head, and you need to take that into account. It's like starting all over again, yes. So I wouldn't despair if it hasn't been 3 to 4 years (at least) since that point.

My iron levels have been normal since about september. Can iron really make that much of a difference?

My hair was down to my butt when I was a child and I'm not sure how much trimming it got, if any. But since a kid is smaller hair is going to look shorter on an adult I guess. Does your terminal length get shorter with age?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/Syaoransbear/Syaoransbear/meee.jpg

Reyesuela
April 9th, 2017, 11:53 AM
Terminal length usually does get shorter with age.

I'd start not with biotin--unlikely to help--but with Nizoral shampoo twice a week as something that has minimal extra overhead.

Carolyn
April 9th, 2017, 11:53 AM
MSM is supposed to help with shedding. I've taken it for years and I think it does help to a small degree. You could try that. Also do you get enough protein?

draysmir
April 9th, 2017, 11:59 AM
Maybe start measuring the thickness of your hair at big milestones (SL, APL, BSL, etc.). You can then see over time if your taper gets less dramatic, and then you can determine whether WL is your terminal length.

Your hair looks quite long in your childhood picture, I'm just guessing but I would say that your hair in that picture would be longer than WL on an adult, unless you're really tall.

Syaoransbear
April 9th, 2017, 07:35 PM
Terminal length usually does get shorter with age.

I'd start not with biotin--unlikely to help--but with Nizoral shampoo twice a week as something that has minimal extra overhead.

I'm not familiar with Nizoral. What does it do?


MSM is supposed to help with shedding. I've taken it for years and I think it does help to a small degree. You could try that. Also do you get enough protein?
I used to take MSM, I might start it up again but I don't remember seeing benefits. I was doing Bargello's regime years ago but I'm pretty sure all it did was empty my wallet.

I likely don't get enough protein. I don't recall getting checked for that, but I will schedule a physical and see if I can get tested for that.


Maybe start measuring the thickness of your hair at big milestones (SL, APL, BSL, etc.). You can then see over time if your taper gets less dramatic, and then you can determine whether WL is your terminal length.

Your hair looks quite long in your childhood picture, I'm just guessing but I would say that your hair in that picture would be longer than WL on an adult, unless you're really tall.

I'm 5'7, so pretty average. I also thought it would be longer than waist on me. I also took horrible care of my hair back then. I always wore it down and I never brushed it until it got these horrible mats underneath.

This is my taper right now:

Base: 2 1\2"
shoulder: 1 1\2"
APL: 1"
BSL: 1\2"
Waist: impossible to measure wisps

I feel like I lose a tonne of thickness from just the base of my head to my shoulder, nevermind all the way to waist. A lot of the hair on the very top of my head doesn't even make it to my shoulder.

Entangled
April 9th, 2017, 08:39 PM
My iron levels have been normal since about september. Can iron really make that much of a difference?

I don't know enough about the topic to respond to other queries, but I've heard it can. Also consider it's been around seven months, which is only about three inches of regrowth/increased growth if you've got an average rate, something that seems difficult to measure.

rags
April 9th, 2017, 08:42 PM
Yes, iron CAN make that much of a difference! I was horribly anemic a couple of years ago, when my hair was down to hip. I had iron deficient anemia as well as pernicious anemia. I lost well over half my hair (my ferritin was at 3! ). I thought it was solely due to a medication at that time, but I'm still taking the medication without any abnormal shedding for over a year now - since I got my iron somewhat under control.

I agree with the others; you are going to have to count it as if you just began growing your hair out in September. Count from there and see if your hair improves in a couple of years. It's been two years for me and my ponytail is actually back up almost to pre-shed levels now (still very, very thin - I have a lot of health issues, but back to where it was!). I wish you good luck and lots of patience!

Stormynights
April 9th, 2017, 09:04 PM
Have you had a thyroid test?

CrowningGlory
April 9th, 2017, 09:07 PM
My iron levels have been normal since about september. Can iron really make that much of a difference? [/IMG]

Yes, yes, yes! Don't make the mistake of thinking because your levels are normal that your hair should be back to what it used to be. No, it's going to take years to fully recover and if your iron drops again (as mine did) you could be effectively starting all over again.

Reyesuela
April 9th, 2017, 09:39 PM
You can't get tested for protein. Track your food with myfitnesspal. It's not hard. You need 46 grams a day.

Nizoral was developed as an anti dandruff shampoo but the active ingredient was found to stimulate hair growth.

No, iron is unlikely to have a huge impact. India has the highest rates of anemia in women in the world--and is famous for the thick hair of its women. Most studies have found at most only a mild benefit to hair from correcting anemia. The only ones that have shown a large benefit have been smaller, less rigorous studies.

rags
April 9th, 2017, 09:52 PM
You can't get tested for protein. Track your food with myfitnesspal. It's not hard. You need 46 grams a day.

Nizoral was developed as an anti dandruff shampoo but the active ingredient was found to stimulate hair growth.

No, iron is unlikely to have a huge impact. India has the highest rates of anemia in women in the world--and is famous for the thick hair of its women. Most studies have found at most only a mild benefit to hair from correcting anemia. The only ones that have shown a large benefit have been smaller, less rigorous studies.

And yet - there are two of us here with DIRECT EXPERIENCE with it saying that yes, it does make a difference. My hematologist AND a trichologist informed me that it was a major reason for my hairloss, which was massive. Once my ferritin was up again (I needed IV infusions) - hair regrowth started.

I personally think the OP should speak to a medical professional she trusts and get their opinion on this.

Reyesuela
April 9th, 2017, 10:00 PM
Neither one of you have normal, healthy hair density now, though. If someone has thinning hair because of androgenic excess and it got corrected, hair grows back immediately at a healthy density. If it takes years to recover to less than a healthy density, then the low iron may have been purely coincidental or a small part of a bigger picture. That's why larger studies were done, and most show zero to mild improvement, depending on the study b

rags
April 9th, 2017, 10:21 PM
I do not have normal density, no. I have other health problems and medications which cause that. However, right after getting my ferritin back up - regrowth started. I recovered my "normal for me" scalp coverage fairly quickly. The years come in waiting for the new hair simply to grow long enough to get into a pony, braid, bun, etc.

Perhaps some of it depends on levels too? A ferritin of 3 made me pretty sick indeed, along with the b12 deficiency too. I was quite ill from it. Perhaps those with only slightly low levels may have different results?

Syaoransbear
April 9th, 2017, 10:24 PM
Have you had a thyroid test?

Thyroid was normal.


You can't get tested for protein. Track your food with myfitnesspal. It's not hard. You need 46 grams a day.

Nizoral was developed as an anti dandruff shampoo but the active ingredient was found to stimulate hair growth.

No, iron is unlikely to have a huge impact. India has the highest rates of anemia in women in the world--and is famous for the thick hair of its women. Most studies have found at most only a mild benefit to hair from correcting anemia. The only ones that have shown a large benefit have been smaller, less rigorous studies.

How long does it take for the protein levels in the blood to become normal? Is it something that takes months to stabilize, or is it quite instant?

How much growth does Nizoral stimulate? Does it create thickness or faster growth?

I was kind of hoping to keep on the CO path long enough to see its benefits, but Nizoral is intriguing.

Deborah
April 9th, 2017, 11:03 PM
None of us can tell you what your terminal length is. If it were me I would trim off those thin ends up to about bsl, then just treat your hair gently and well, and wait to see if it will grow longer. Only the passage of time will reveal whether you can grow all of it down to a longer length.

lapushka
April 10th, 2017, 01:13 PM
My iron levels have been normal since about september. Can iron really make that much of a difference?

My hair was down to my butt when I was a child and I'm not sure how much trimming it got, if any. But since a kid is smaller hair is going to look shorter on an adult I guess. Does your terminal length get shorter with age?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/Syaoransbear/Syaoransbear/meee.jpg

Yes it is known for being a main cause of massive shedding if you are deficient in any way.

CrowningGlory
April 11th, 2017, 12:08 AM
Neither one of you have normal, healthy hair density now, though. If someone has thinning hair because of androgenic excess and it got corrected, hair grows back immediately at a healthy density. If it takes years to recover to less than a healthy density, then the low iron may have been purely coincidental or a small part of a bigger picture. That's why larger studies were done, and most show zero to mild improvement, depending on the study b

My hair has improved, certainly, but because hair grows from the root and my iron levels dropped a second time, I can't expect to be fully recovered from the loss related to low iron. My hair also grows slowly (always has) so even six years has not seen it fully recovered. Even with a normal growth rate of half an inch per month and has my iron not dropped again, I could only be expecting it to be back to normal now for waist - tailbone length hair.

As for hair density (is this the same as volume?) I am seeing tons of new growth to almost BSL so I'm hopeful that normal hair density is in my near future. There are no bald spots or areas that look thinner on my scalp. It's the ends that are thinner, some reaching higher in some areas.

I would love the links to the studies you mention because my search has returned results different to those you suggest.

Kikyou
April 11th, 2017, 11:38 AM
I would also add to importance of iron. Where I live/used to live, when you shed and go to doctor, what they check first is iron and thyroid. When I was diagnosed with borderline anaemia my pony was a thickness of my pinkie. First, I had to take iron pills for a while, now I drink nettle tea semi regularly (average 3 a week) and that was many years ago. My iron levels are all right now (I control it about twice a year when I donate blood, you cannot donate if level of iron is low) and my pony is like 3/4 times as thick as it was back then.

So yes, I would consider the moment of fixing it as a new beginning, cause you cannot fix hair that are already there, but the new ones should be stronger.

draysmir
April 11th, 2017, 01:18 PM
This is my taper right now:

Base: 2 1\2"
shoulder: 1 1\2"
APL: 1"
BSL: 1\2"
Waist: impossible to measure wisps

I feel like I lose a tonne of thickness from just the base of my head to my shoulder, nevermind all the way to waist. A lot of the hair on the very top of my head doesn't even make it to my shoulder.

Have you always had a lot of hair that doesn't make it to your shoulders? I wonder if it's new growth since September, the length and amount seems to make sense.

Syaoransbear
April 11th, 2017, 11:20 PM
Have you always had a lot of hair that doesn't make it to your shoulders? I wonder if it's new growth since September, the length and amount seems to make sense.

It's been this way for as long as I can remember but it's possible I have had low iron levels for many years. The diameter of my hair has remained the same since the start of my hair journey though.