baking soda hurts hair?

[Kae612]

I recently saw this video that underlines exactly why using baking soda to clean hair is dangerous and harmful. I haven't seen anything about this specific position after poking around these forums, is this old news or does anyone have any challenges to this position?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccIRPuvJWc8

[spidermom]

Baking soda made my hair matt together like felt. I thought I would have to shave my head! It took 2 weeks of daily conditioner soaks, which I did because there was no other way to comb my hair, to get my hair back to normal. HORRIBLE STUFF!

[Obsidian]

This is old news. I've know about baking soda damage for years, long before I came here or it became a popular no poo method.

[lapushka]

BS is *very* alkaline. You'd have to seriously ACV rinse or citric acid/lemon juice rinse after. But still, a regular clarifying sulfate shampoo is miles better than this! BS is not for the hair. BS is BS. It is what it is. ;)

Like spidermom, I had terrible results, hair with velcro-y lengths and ends. NEVER AGAIN!

[proo]

Recipes I see for bs shampoo are waaaay too strong-
I find it works ok if used occasionally, highly dilute on hair with no product residue.
Follow with similarly dilute vinegar rinse, should have pretty good results.
If hair is loaded with product, prolly not a good idea.

[Johannah]

It didn't surprise me. I never tried using it... And I never will. I can imagine the horror. Yikes.

[lithostoic]

I mean it's used to unclog drains.

[Kherome]

Yes it's quite hard on hair. I've never understood why people would want to subject their hair to it!

[sumidha]

That's a good explanation of why using baking soda on your hair for an extended period of time will most likely destroy it. :)

[Deborah]

Maybe my hair is just very strong, but years ago I experimented with baking soda washing, and my hair did just fine with it. It certainly did not cause any damage. I wouldn't do it now, but for many people it worked fine. I'm not saying people should do it, but it worked well for me and many others way back when.

[Kae612]

Ok! Good to know, sorry about the repeat info!

[mizukitty]

Not surprising to me whatsoever, I mean, when you use bleach (also extremely alkaline), I believe the way it works is by purposely forcing your hair cuticles in order to remove the melanin! So, that tells me baking soda and (sorry, but this is just IMO) "shampoo bars" too. They're sitting at a pH of 9-10 which is nowhere near what your skin is (~5.5). This doesn't apply to detergent based shampoo bars like Lush, that have sulfates, but rather plain old soap shampoo bars. Yes, they are PLAIN lye soap. Just because it has "shampoo bar" slapped on the packaging doesn't make it any more beneficial for your hair. There's a reason modern shampoos and conditioners have pHs of ~4.5 and 3.5.

But, YMMV, if something really works for you, no need to change that. Just pointing out a similarity that gets overlooked a lot.

[spidermom]

I've never tried a shampoo bar personally because bar soaps feel so horribly slimy to me, so I use shower gels. I don't like the alkaline factor of soap, either.

[desu]

I've tried using it instead of dry shampoo once and it made my scalp burn!

[mizukitty]

I've never tried a shampoo bar personally because bar soaps feel so horribly slimy to me, so I use shower gels. I don't like the alkaline factor of soap, either.

Yes, they're outdated in my opinion. I think a lot of people bash on modern shampoo but it's come an EXTREMELY long way, and formulations have advanced a lot. Shampoos can now do so many different things, whereas soap has one job (and kind of fails at that, because most of the world has hard water), which is to clean. Clean only. No matter how many exotic butters and oils go into it - lye turns them into soap. Yes, they may have different properties such as bar hardness, amount of bubbles, how WELL it cleans, and how it looks/smells, but you can't put protein in it or moisturizing agents, softening agents, or even chelating agents! And the hard water gives you soap scum (on skin and hair!)

Sorry for the tangent! I've made a LOT of soap (and quit making it) for these very reasons :P

[ExpectoPatronum]

I actually have had luck mixing a little baking soda into shampoo to make it more cleansing. I haven't done that in years though, and I would never wash my hair with the stuff full-strength. That's just asking for problems!

[lapushka]

Yes, they're outdated in my opinion. I think a lot of people bash on modern shampoo but it's come an EXTREMELY long way, and formulations have advanced a lot. Shampoos can now do so many different things, whereas soap has one job (and kind of fails at that, because most of the world has hard water), which is to clean. Clean only. No matter how many exotic butters and oils go into it - lye turns them into soap. Yes, they may have different properties such as bar hardness, amount of bubbles, how WELL it cleans, and how it looks/smells, but you can't put protein in it or moisturizing agents, softening agents, or even chelating agents! And the hard water gives you soap scum (on skin and hair!)

Sorry for the tangent! I've made a LOT of soap (and quit making it) for these very reasons :P

Agree with you on that. But there are people on this board who do use shampoo bars, and very successfully, so I'd be careful with calling it outdated. More of a YMMV thing.

Except on the BS, that is really tough on hair.

[spidermom]

Agree with you on that. But there are people on this board who do use shampoo bars, and very successfully, so I'd be careful with calling it outdated. More of a YMMV thing.

Except on the BS, that is really tough on hair.

And there are a lot of people who keep trying shampoo bars because they think that they should work, but they never do. I've seen so many posts about this.

[mizukitty]

Agree with you on that. But there are people on this board who do use shampoo bars, and very successfully, so I'd be careful with calling it outdated. More of a YMMV thing.

Except on the BS, that is really tough on hair.

Either way, as long as you use an acidic rinse after either, it'll probably be fine. I just think it's unnecessary for myself and many others (with no problems with detergents and extremely hard water) to use either as they ARE a step back in terms of product formulation, and you can now choose mild detergents that are coconut derived if you want to go natural and/or gentle.

I suppose having a scalp that doesn't fare well with detergents and soft water (pili!!) they are indispensable. So of course it's a great thing people can have options. I just wish people would do research and make informed choices, and not force their hair into adopting a routine it doesn't like just because it sounds "natural and organic" and works for others.

An analogy: using a cell phone from the 1990s. Yes it works and gets the job done, but there are newer and better things out there. Why not branch out?

[pili]

Agree with you on that. But there are people on this board who do use shampoo bars, and very successfully, so I'd be careful with calling it outdated. More of a YMMV thing.

Except on the BS, that is really tough on hair.
Thanks Lapushka. Modern shampoo makes my scalp crack and bleed, with SLS, without SLS. Shampoo bars haven't. My scalp is actually calming down now.

[pili]

Either way, as long as you use an acidic rinse after either, it'll probably be fine. I just think it's unnecessary for myself and many others (with no problems with detergents and extremely hard water) to use either as they ARE a step back in terms of product formulation, and you can now choose mild detergents that are coconut derived if you want to go natural and/or gentle.

I suppose having a scalp that doesn't fare well with detergents and soft water (pili!!) they are indispensable. So of course it's a great thing people can have options. I just wish people would do research and make informed choices, and not force their hair into adopting a routine it doesn't like just because it sounds "natural and organic" and works for others.

An analogy: using a cell phone from the 1990s. Yes it works and gets the job done, but there are newer and better things out there. Why not branch out?

HA! We must have typed at the same time. Yeah, I research a lot and I'm always willing to do what my hair wants and needs. I do feel lucky that I hit the bullseye in one.

[mizukitty]

HA! We must have typed at the same time. Yeah, I research a lot and I'm always willing to do what my hair wants and needs. I do feel lucky that I hit the bullseye in one.

LOL I think we did! I definitely thought of you while typing that. I know that they're a godsend for you which is definitely why I'm not 100% against anything. Everyone has different needs!

[lapushka]

An analogy: using a cell phone from the 1990s. Yes it works and gets the job done, but there are newer and better things out there. Why not branch out?

Err, I have a simple call/text only cell phone. I don't use a smartphone. I just think spending that much on a phone is not something I'm willing to do.

[mizukitty]

Err, I have a simple call/text only cell phone. I don't use a smartphone. I just think spending that much on a phone is not something I'm willing to do.

Well, there's also the component of how much use you get out of something. So perhaps someone who relies heavily on a cellphone that doesn't want to upgrade "because."

If you don't really need a phone, then there's no need to upgrade :P

[lapushka]

Well, there's also the component of how much use you get out of something. So perhaps someone who relies heavily on a cellphone that doesn't want to upgrade "because."

If you don't really need a phone, then there's no need to upgrade :P

Oh... but I *need* it! And it works just fine. I'll use the internet on my computer!

[mizukitty]

Oh... but I *need* it! And it works just fine. I'll use the internet on my computer!

And then there's the beauty of options!! :D

[Rosetta]

I have never tried using baking soda for my hair and probably never will, as while it makes a great all-natural deodorant (the best, actually), I've never thought it would be that good for hair... But then again, e.g. this girl says she's been using BS for her hair for years, and her hair doesn't seem at all damaged: https://youtu.be/ROPSP15BNkU?t=9m20s




An analogy: using a cell phone from the 1990s. Yes it works and gets the job done, but there are newer and better things out there. Why not branch out?
While I'm not using a cell phone from the 1990's (but not a smartphone either, as I hate them), to be honest, it's partly this kind of thinking that's got this planet into the state it's now in, that you'd always need to "branch out" and buy the newest thing, necessary or not...

[LadyCelestina]

Err... no... baking soda is really bad for your skin since it also has an optimal ph. Plus with the deodorant, I dont know, keeping something that disrupts your skin's ph and barrier in a warm, wet environment, like an armpit... Also it's not 'natural'.

[lapushka]

Err... no... baking soda is really bad for your skin since it also has an optimal ph. Plus with the deodorant, I dont know, keeping something that disrupts your skin's ph and barrier in a warm, wet environment, like an armpit... Also it's not 'natural'.

Yeah, I would certainly not use it on my skin, and certainly not in my armpits. I trust regular deodorants, and yes, I use anti-perspirants. :shrug:

[Entangled]

I've only used baking soda once in my hair. It was recommended by one of the dance moms after a competition to get hairspray out. I had really short hair we had to wrangle into a bun-like thing, so I had so much hairspray in my hair the bun-ish thing stayed in without Bobby pins. Talk about helmet hair! Anyways, the baking soda helped get that out. It took several times, but I finally got it out.

[Rosetta]

Err... no... baking soda is really bad for your skin since it also has an optimal ph. Plus with the deodorant, I dont know, keeping something that disrupts your skin's ph and barrier in a warm, wet environment, like an armpit... Also it's not 'natural'.


Yeah, I would certainly not use it on my skin, and certainly not in my armpits. I trust regular deodorants, and yes, I use anti-perspirants. :shrug:
You are certainly entitled to your views, I for one wouldn't use those commercially made deodorants with strong chemicals (carcinogenic to the boot, which e.g. aluminium is proven to be and which nearly all deodorants & anti-perspirants contain) for a million, and especially not "anti-perspirants" that disrupt body's natural functions, but each to their own :shrug: And if it was "bad for skin" I'd certainly have noticed, as I've been using it for almost 2 years... And it works much better than any commercial chemical cocktail ever did :D
TBH, those pH claims sound similar to saying that shampoo bars are bad for scalp due to their pH, and yet many find them not to be so.

Oh, and as for naturalness, something you can actually eat is definitely way more natural than any industrial concoctions (aka commercial deodorants & anti-perspirants) ;)

[LadyCelestina]

You are certainly entitled to your views, I for one wouldn't use those commercially made deodorants with strong chemicals (carcinogenic to the boot, which e.g. aluminium is proven to be and which nearly all deodorants & anti-perspirants contain) for a million, and especially not "anti-perspirants" that disrupt body's natural functions, but each to their own :shrug: And if it was "bad for skin" I'd certainly have noticed, as I've been using it for almost 2 years... And it works much better than any commercial chemical cocktail ever did :D

TBH, those pH claims sound similar to saying that shampoo bars are bad for scalp due to their pH, and yet many find them not to be so.

Yeah, this is very similar to people saying that dye or heat tools don't damage the hair because hair is so nice and silky after using them. I did a quick google search for studies showing a clear link between the substance in antiperspirant and cancer, but most are vague so idk. For example, benzoyil peroxide, a relatively harmless anti acne topical causes growth of tumors in mice when exposed to insanely high amounts of it, and henna mutilates zebra fish embryos.

[LadyCelestina]

Just because you can eat it doesn't mean you should put it on yourself... /// Also totally off-topic, and probably unfounded since I didn't read that much into the breast cancer/deodorant issue, but it's funny how they search for link between topicals and increasing breast cancer when most women take estrogen internally through things like hormonal BC which I think does increase cancer risks?

[mizukitty]

It's not so much the pH on your scalp being elevated - your skin brings that back to the standard pH of your acid mantle within a few hours, but rather the effect it has on your hair. Highly alkaline products force the cuticles of your hair to open quite severely (higher pH = more of this effect.) Extra open cuticles + rubbing around... = ? Shampoo pH is 4.5 which doesn't contribute to their already "opened" state of just being wet, however some harsh detergents in shampoos can also really force them open.

Certainly if you use ACV or even regular conditioner (pH 3.5) after this they will smooth out, and most likely all will be well. However, failing to close the cuticle can leave it vulnerable and more prone to roughness, tangles, and damage. This is what all high alkalinity products (and some harsh detergents) have in common, albeit on a different scale - bleach (13.5), shampoo bars (9), baking soda (9).. The ACV can also prevent hardness water soap scum waxy stuff from accumulating on your hair, which is pretty important in hard water areas.

Does that mean shampoo bars will make your hair combust and you should never use them? Absolutely not. Does that mean I'm going to flame every shampoo bar user out there? No way! I still believe in YMMV and I truly think your mileage certainly may and does vary, I just want to bring information to the table so people can be a little more informed. If your hair looks like a million bucks and you wouldn't sell your poo bars for anything, more power to you. You've found something that works for you. That's perfectly okay.

We can have differing opinions and still coexist.. :)

A link that is pretty interesting regarding aforementioned things (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/search?q=soap)

[truepeacenik]

I mean it's used to unclog drains.

In combination with vinegar to create gaseous pressure.

BS or vinegar by themselves don't clear drain clogs. Lye and bleach, also alkaline like BS, can.

[LadyCelestina]

mizukitty I'm not sure about how it is for scalp, but I know that for skin if you screw up the barrier, it takes about two weeks to repair. (google found this = A study has shown that using a skin cleanser that is basic – alkaline – like regular soap, can cause this kind of damage even after one use, and the effect is cumulative, meaning it gets worse with repeated use. https://www.futurederm.com/how-ph-affects-the-skin/)

It's fine if you really want to use baking soda or whatever, but it's damaging to the skin and hair, that's a fact.

[animetor7]

mizukitty I'm not sure about how it is for scalp, but I know that for skin if you screw up the barrier, it takes about two weeks to repair. (google found this = A study has shown that using a skin cleanser that is basic – alkaline – like regular soap, can cause this kind of damage even after one use, and the effect is cumulative, meaning it gets worse with repeated use. https://www.futurederm.com/how-ph-affects-the-skin/)

It's fine if you really want to use baking soda or whatever, but it's damaging to the skin and hair, that's a fact.

Please keep in mind that detergents can be very damaging to skin as well. I have eczema and the first thing my dermatologist had me do to get it under control was to switch from detergent based shampoos and body washes (pretty much all liquid shampoos or body washes) to shampoo bars and other soap based cleansers. Despite the pH these are much gentler on skin that is prone to dryness and irritation than anything detergent based. This is because of simpler ingredients lists (helps prevent allergies/irritation) and oils that are left over after the process of saponification. Yes detergents clean, but often too well. Also you mention that baking soda is used to clean drains, well so are sulfate based detergents found in almost all modern shampoos. You can't determine the harshness of something from one ingredient, the concentration of and the rest of the formulation matters.

[spidermom]

mizukitty I'm not sure about how it is for scalp, but I know that for skin if you screw up the barrier, it takes about two weeks to repair. (google found this = A study has shown that using a skin cleanser that is basic – alkaline – like regular soap, can cause this kind of damage even after one use, and the effect is cumulative, meaning it gets worse with repeated use. https://www.futurederm.com/how-ph-affects-the-skin/)

It's fine if you really want to use baking soda or whatever, but it's damaging to the skin and hair, that's a fact.

This is how I think: Why do something I have to reverse with an acid rinse or wait for my skin to correct? I suppose if purity were the goal, WO or NW/SO would be the best. I don't like the results I've seen on other people so I'm not attracted in that direction, either, plus detergents don't disturb my skin or scalp.

[pili]

This is how I think: Why do something I have to reverse with an acid rinse or wait for my skin to correct? I suppose if purity were the goal, WO or NW/SO would be the best. I don't like the results I've seen on other people so I'm not attracted in that direction, either, plus detergents don't disturb my skin or scalp.
That's why YMMV. I'm like animetor7. Shampoo bars and ACV are working for me. They don't bother you. I haven't tried WO or NW/SO, but who knows, I might one day. I've only a month ago learned my hair can use something other than conditioner to feel good. I have no problem telling someone what works for me, but I'm not going to naysay what works for them. What I do may be the worst thing ever for their hair and scalp. Hair, scalp, water, climate, priorities and personal beliefs are all different for everyone. I'll stick with my shampoo bars, for now.

[RavenRose]

Quite a few years ago (before finding LHC) I tried the NO POO method with the baking soda and vinegar, also using baking soda as a deodorant.

I kept it up for months waiting for that magical sebum to adjust to less washing- It never did. It also trashed my hair, so many splits, kept breaking off around APL, and was dry. I also was using henna, the first couple of weeks after hennaing my hair loved the BS/vinegar routine, but afterwards went back to the dry tangled mess. I always ended up resorting to sulfate free shampoo and conditioner every couple of weeks just to make it manageable/presentable. When I was hired on in a professional office I ditched it for good.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd177/paganrosemama/88d51f36-0a88-479d-b440-a78137589f11.jpg (http://s221.photobucket.com/user/paganrosemama/media/88d51f36-0a88-479d-b440-a78137589f11.jpg.html)

I mixed up baking soda with arrowroot powder for a deodorant that worked wonders for years, but eventually my skin became to sensitive to it and would rash out from the baking soda, no matter how little I used in the mix, so no longer use that either.

[lapushka]

Just because you can eat it doesn't mean you should put it on yourself... /// Also totally off-topic, and probably unfounded since I didn't read that much into the breast cancer/deodorant issue, but it's funny how they search for link between topicals and increasing breast cancer when most women take estrogen internally through things like hormonal BC which I think does increase cancer risks?

Yeah, all that! I mean...

[renia22]

Interesting video. The couple of time in the past that I used baking soda or a shampoo bar (Lush), my hair did in fact feel like it had a chemical treatment, and like the actual structure of my hair had changed. It took a very long time to get my hair feeling back to "normal" (and yes I did the acidic rinses after, and no, they didn't help).

One things she didn't go over, and a reason people often give for using baking soda/ vinegar, is that baking soda doesn't actually "clarify" hair. Not sebum or styling product residue anyways. It does not have those types of properies. The reason it "works", if you see any benefit at all, is that it exfoliates. You're basically *scrubbing* your hair with a highly alkaline substance. Vinegar doesn't "clarify" (oil, styling product residue) either. It can help with mineral build up, but technically it's not a "clarifier". There's so many choices and well formulated products out there these days, why mess with something that can damage your hair like that. Eeek :/

[lapushka]

Interesting video. The couple of time in the past that I used baking soda or a shampoo bar (Lush), my hair did in fact feel like it had a chemical treatment, and like the actual structure of my hair had changed. It took a very long time to get my hair feeling back to "normal" (and yes I did the acidic rinses after, and no, they didn't help).

One things she didn't go over, and a reason people often give for using baking soda/ vinegar, is that baking soda doesn't actually "clarify" hair. Not sebum or styling product residue anyways. It does not have those types of properies. The reason it "works", if you see any benefit at all, is that it exfoliates. You're basically *scrubbing* your hair with a highly alkaline substance. Vinegar doesn't "clarify" (oil, styling product residue) either. It can help with mineral build up, but technically it's not a "clarifier". There's so many choices and well formulated products out there these days, why mess with something that can damage your hair like that. Eeek :/

Totally agree! :agree:

[pili]

Interesting video. The couple of time in the past that I used baking soda or a shampoo bar (Lush), my hair did in fact feel like it had a chemical treatment, and like the actual structure of my hair had changed. It took a very long time to get my hair feeling back to "normal" (and yes I did the acidic rinses after, and no, they didn't help).

One things she didn't go over, and a reason people often give for using baking soda/ vinegar, is that baking soda doesn't actually "clarify" hair. Not sebum or styling product residue anyways. It does not have those types of properies. The reason it "works", if you see any benefit at all, is that it exfoliates. You're basically *scrubbing* your hair with a highly alkaline substance. Vinegar doesn't "clarify" (oil, styling product residue) either. It can help with mineral build up, but technically it's not a "clarifier". There's so many choices and well formulated products out there these days, why mess with something that can damage your hair like that. Eeek :/
You do know Lush shampoo bars are just SLS shampoos in bar form, right?

[lapushka]

You do know Lush shampoo bars are just SLS shampoos in bar form, right?

Except they are even harsher than most "regular" shampoos, up there with HE & Pantene, even more harsh, possibly.

[renia22]

You do know Lush shampoo bars are just SLS shampoos in bar form, right?

Yes, but I use other SLS (/SLES) shampoos on a regular basis and have zero issues. I think it's the alkaline nature of the Lush shampoo bars that was the problem. Plus they gave gave me scalp cysts :/. Too alkaline and irritating to boot.

ps^ I do use some of the Herbal Essences and Pantene Lapushka mentioned and personally don't find those to be "harsh", I think those companies do a decent job formulating liquid shampoos that work well without trashing hair (providing you use something for your hair type). Not sure what the deal is with Lush and those bars. Some of the liquid shampoos from them I didn't have a problem with, however..

[mizukitty]

Yes, but I use other SLS (/SLES) shampoos on a regular basis and have zero issues. I think it's the alkaline nature of the Lush shampoo bars that was the problem. Plus they gave gave me scalp cysts :/. Too alkaline and irritating to boot.

ps^ I do use some of the Herbal Essences and Pantene Lapushka mentioned and personally don't find those to be "harsh", I think those companies do a decent job formulating liquid shampoos that work well without trashing hair (providing you use something for your hair type). Not sure what the deal is with Lush and those bars. Some of the liquid shampoos from them I didn't have a problem with, however..

Hmm.. I pH tested my Seanik and it came up at a pH of 5. It could be wrong, though.

I don't see why Lush wouldn't pH balance their bars, as it's much more simple to do so with a detergent than a true soap. But it's pure speculation.

The nature of SLS is extremely stripping and harsh and most of Lush bars are just solid bars of SLS in reality. Dose makes the poison. So yes, they will strip the daylights out of everything on your hair - buildup, natural oils, everything. They're obviously not ideal for use more than once a month or something if you're a really heavy product user, or your hair is thick and course and can handle it more often (mine can't.) It's imperative you follow with some sort of conditioner or acidic rinse, as they are so harsh.

They do have their uses, in my opinion, as they don't interfere with hard water and do not deposit anything into hair, so you can control what you want to put back on a "clean slate", so to speak. But obviously there's a ton of shampoos that will do this, it's not exclusive to Lush.

I wish they would advertise their bars as clarifying, though, because I think people are under the assumption you're supposed to use them with every wash (cringe), and I could see, if you don't moisturize after, how that can really destroy your hair over time.

[spidermom]

I feel the need to clarify that I do not intend to criticize what works for other people, just sharing my thinking (and experiences) regarding my own hair, scalp, and skin.

[LadyCelestina]

How I see it is that people who use sulfate shampoo do realise that the shampoo is not ideal for hair and often do things to counter the damage from it, look at lapushka's routine, whereas with baking soda people actually seem to think it's a healthier alternative...

[renia22]

Hmm.. I pH tested my Seanik and it came up at a pH of 5. It could be wrong, though.

I don't see why Lush wouldn't pH balance their bars, as it's much more simple to do so with a detergent than a true soap. But it's pure speculation.

The nature of SLS is extremely stripping and harsh and most of Lush bars are just solid bars of SLS in reality. Dose makes the poison. So yes, they will strip the daylights out of everything on your hair - buildup, natural oils, everything. They're obviously not ideal for use more than once a month or something if you're a really heavy product user, or your hair is thick and course and can handle it more often (mine can't.) It's imperative you follow with some sort of conditioner or acidic rinse, as they are so harsh.

They do have their uses, in my opinion, as they don't interfere with hard water and do not deposit anything into hair, so you can control what you want to put back on a "clean slate", so to speak. But obviously there's a ton of shampoos that will do this, it's not exclusive to Lush.

I wish they would advertise their bars as clarifying, though, because I think people are under the assumption you're supposed to use them with every wash (cringe), and I could see, if you don't moisturize after, how that can really destroy your hair over time.

Interesting about the ph of the seatnik. Haven't tried that one. At the time I had the issue, I bought a few of them, but it was Karma that I recall did really weird, scary things to my hair. It became really dry, and it was like the very structure of it was different. I don't know if you watched any of the Harry Potter movies or read the books, but that shampoo bar, similar to what baking soda and castille soap have done to my hair as well, was like a soul-sucking Dementor for the hair. Sucked the very life force right out of it, lol. When I contacted them about the ph, no one had any idea. They supposedly have Trichologists who help develop their products, but I've always wondered if what's really in them is accurate? I'm pretty leery about their jar packaging, and I've have some products go rancid way before the expiration date, so I wonder sometimes about them..

As far as SLS, I really think it depends on the overall formula of a product. I can use some clarifying shampoos quite frequently (Paul Mitchell shampoo 2), Prell I can use frequently, and without conditioner even when my hair is shorter. The Daddy O, Syliva Stout and Juicy shampoos from lush I've had zero issue. George's Aloe shampoo, which uses SLS as a main cleansing agent, has been one of the best shampoos for my hair ever, and helped me a lot when I was having shedding issues I couldn't figure out. Id hate to blame the SLS when a properly formulated product can be just fine. Maybe certain shampoo bars from Lush just don't have a great formula overall, but the affect on my hair is pretty much on par with what baking soda does. Not good :/

[animetor7]

I'd like to point out that an acidic rinse does remove mineral buildup which often results from having hard water. So no, it won't remove product buildup, but it will remove minerals. So perhaps that is what was meant by clarifying even if the proper term is chelating.

[mizukitty]

Interesting about the ph of the seatnik. Haven't tried that one. At the time I had the issue, I bought a few of them, but it was Karma that I recall did really weird, scary things to my hair. It became really dry, and it was like the very structure of it was different. I don't know if you watched any of the Harry Potter movies or read the books, but that shampoo bar, similar to what baking soda and castille soap have done to my hair as well, was like a soul-sucking Dementor for the hair. Sucked the very life force right out of it, lol. When I contacted them about the ph, no one had any idea. They supposedly have Trichologists who help develop their products, but I've always wondered if what's really in them is accurate? I'm pretty leery about their jar packaging, and I've have some products go rancid way before the expiration date, so I wonder sometimes about them..

As far as SLS, I really think it depends on the overall formula of a product. I can use some clarifying shampoos quite frequently (Paul Mitchell shampoo 2), Prell I can use frequently, and without conditioner even when my hair is shorter. The Daddy O, Syliva Stout and Juicy shampoos from lush I've had zero issue. George's Aloe shampoo, which uses SLS as a main cleansing agent, has been one of the best shampoos for my hair ever, and helped me a lot when I was having shedding issues I couldn't figure out. Id hate to blame the SLS when a properly formulated product can be just fine. Maybe certain shampoo bars from Lush just don't have a great formula overall, but the affect on my hair is pretty much on par with what baking soda does. Not good :/

The issue is not the presence of SLS, it can be fine in a proper formulation, above I said dose makes the poison. That means to say, because Lush bars contain mostly just SLS and not really much else, they ARE stripping. That doesn't mean SLS when diluted and mixed with other stuff, perhaps in a formula with moisturizing ingredients added will strip your hair nearly as much.

[pili]

I was simply pointing out that a Lush shampoo bar and a soap based shampoo bar (i.e. Chagrin Valley, JR Ligget) are not remotely the same thing. I was assuming that when shampoo bar is reference, the soap kind is what we are talking about, not something like Lush. I think those have to be in a different catagory. Or was I wrong in my assumptions?

[mizukitty]

I was simply pointing out that a Lush shampoo bar and a soap based shampoo bar (i.e. Chagrin Valley, JR Ligget) are not remotely the same thing. I was assuming that when shampoo bar is reference, the soap kind is what we are talking about, not something like Lush. I think those have to be in a different catagory. Or was I wrong in my assumptions?

You were correct! "Shampoo bar" is a terribly vague term and can cause confusion - ingredients will let you know if it's soap or detergent based. If it contains oils like coconut, palm kernel, olive etc. or has "saponified oils of" in the list, you can be sure it's true soap. If you see SLS or any other detergent, it's probably not soap.

What I am NOT entirely sure of, are "bars" that have BOTH properties of soap (saponified fats) AND detergents. I've never used these, have no idea how they work, and can't comment on them at all. I can just assume if they have additions of EDTA or citric acid, they will perform better in hard water and MIGHT be pH balanced(??)

[renia22]

The issue is not the presence of SLS, it can be fine in a proper formulation, above I said dose makes the poison. That means to say, because Lush bars contain mostly just SLS and not really much else, they ARE stripping. That doesn't mean SLS when diluted and mixed with other stuff, perhaps in a formula with moisturizing ingredients added will strip your hair nearly as much.

That's probably true, it's hard to tell from looking at ingredients, though, since they don't tell you concentrations. Or the quality of the ingredients that they use, for that matter. Lush's shampoo bars list SLS first, George's Aloe has it listed as second. Looking at the ingredients, you'd think both would be bad since SLS is was up there, but on my hair, one sucked and the other was awesome. Sometimes you just have to experiment:


Lush Karma shampoo bar:
Sodium Lauryl Sulfate , Sodium Cocoamphoacetate , Fragrance , Patchouli Oil (Pogostemon cablin) , Sweet Orange Oil (Citrus sinensis) , Lavandin Oil (Lavandula Hybrida) , Pine Oil (Pinus sylvestris) , Lemongrass Oil (Cymbopogon citratus) , Elemi Oil (Canarium commune) , Gardenia Extract (Gardenia jasminoides) , *Citral , Hydroxycitronellal , *Citronellol , *Limonene , *Linalool , FD&C Blue No. 1 , FD&C Yellow No. 5 , Roman Chamomile Flower (Anthemis nobilis) . *Occurs naturally in essential oils


George's Aloe shampoo:
Aloe Verta Distillate (Anthraquinone free), Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Cocoamide DEA, Sodium Sulfate, Citric Acid, dl-Panthenol, Vitamin E, Fragrance, Methyl Parabens, Jojoba Oil

[pili]

You were correct! "Shampoo bar" is a terribly vague term and can cause confusion - ingredients will let you know if it's soap or detergent based. If it contains oils like coconut, palm kernel, olive etc. or has "saponified oils of" in the list, you can be sure it's true soap. If you see SLS or any other detergent, it's probably not soap.

What I am NOT entirely sure of, are "bars" that have BOTH properties of soap (saponified fats) AND detergents. I've never used these, have no idea how they work, and can't comment on them at all. I can just assume if they have additions of EDTA or citric acid, they will perform better in hard water and MIGHT be pH balanced(??)
I've never heard of those kinds of bars. Just the fact that they have detergents at all makes me wary of them, though. Sometimes I want to say screw products and go digg up the soapwort root we have here on our property.
"...eye of newt and wing of bat..." :stirpot:

I'll be more clear in future posts to say soap shampoo bars.

[mizukitty]

That's probably true, it's hard to tell from looking at ingredients, though, since they don't tell you concentrations. Or the quality of the ingredients that they use, for that matter. Lush's shampoo bars list SLS first, George's Aloe has it listed as second. Looking at the ingredients, you'd think both would be bad since SLS is was up there, but on my hair, one sucked and the other was awesome. Sometimes you just have to experiment:


Lush Karma shampoo bar:
Sodium Lauryl Sulfate , Sodium Cocoamphoacetate , Fragrance , Patchouli Oil (Pogostemon cablin) , Sweet Orange Oil (Citrus sinensis) , Lavandin Oil (Lavandula Hybrida) , Pine Oil (Pinus sylvestris) , Lemongrass Oil (Cymbopogon citratus) , Elemi Oil (Canarium commune) , Gardenia Extract (Gardenia jasminoides) , *Citral , Hydroxycitronellal , *Citronellol , *Limonene , *Linalool , FD&C Blue No. 1 , FD&C Yellow No. 5 , Roman Chamomile Flower (Anthemis nobilis) . *Occurs naturally in essential oils


George's Aloe shampoo:
Aloe Verta Distillate (Anthraquinone free), Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Cocoamide DEA, Sodium Sulfate, Citric Acid, dl-Panthenol, Vitamin E, Fragrance, Methyl Parabens, Jojoba Oil

The distillate essentially means water. That alone dilutes the product significantly. The Lush bar doesn't have any liquid, so the majority of the bar consists of shredded detergents, molded into a block by use of those oils, I suppose. My Seanik bar literally has the white needles that SLS is sold in, LOL.

Linky link (https://alifelessirritating.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/sodium_lauryl_sulfate.jpg). Looks exactly like this, all throughout the bar.

[pili]

The distillate essentially means water. That alone dilutes the product significantly. The Lush bar doesn't have any liquid, so the majority of the bar consists of shredded detergents, molded into a block by use of those oils, I suppose. My Seanik bar literally has the white needles that SLS is sold in, LOL.

Linky link (https://alifelessirritating.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/sodium_lauryl_sulfate.jpg). Looks exactly like this, all throughout the bar.

Oh my!
(Need more characters...)

[mizukitty]

Oh my!
(Need more characters...)

LOL. I know. What's even more disturbing, is that they "recommend" you rub it against your scalp and length. When I used it the other day, I rubbed it in my hands for 2 seconds and diluted the HECK out of it with water, and then put it on my scalp. Would ya believe it created enough foam to clean my entire head root to tip? And it STILL dried it out. Hah!

[renia22]

The distillate essentially means water. That alone dilutes the product significantly. The Lush bar doesn't have any liquid, so the majority of the bar consists of shredded detergents, molded into a block by use of those oils, I suppose. My Seanik bar literally has the white needles that SLS is sold in, LOL.

Linky link (https://alifelessirritating.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/sodium_lauryl_sulfate.jpg). Looks exactly like this, all throughout the bar.

Yikes! I don't know, looking at the ingredients online, seeing how I normally don't have an aversion to SLS, it didn't look too bad to me, and it didn't really prepare me for what happened to my hair. I only used a little and did the acidic rinse after, and my normally shiny, pretty much healthy hair looked like I had crimped it and than ran a flat iron over it after that. Really dry and lack luster also. I might have a picture somewhere. It took a long time to restore it back to normal. Prior to that I had tried various other shampoo bars and wasn't crazy about those either. Since that experience, though, I have stuck to liquid shampoo.

p.s. mizukitty, I just looked at a photo of the lush shampoo bars online and I see what you are saying. Those wormy looking SLS pieces making up the bulk of the bar. Good grief!

[pili]

LOL. I know. What's even more disturbing, is that they "recommend" you rub it against your scalp and length. When I used it the other day, I rubbed it in my hands for 2 seconds and diluted the HECK out of it with water, and then put it on my scalp. Would ya believe it created enough foam to clean my entire head root to tip? And it STILL dried it out. Hah!
Eek! Yeah, I'm not getting something like that anywhere near my scalp.

[cheeky]

I sprinkle a bit of baking soda and a few caps full of ACV in my kitchen sink and mermaid rinse every 18 months.
I have extremely dense low porosity hair, also happens to be in locks. I use henna and indigo and it strips all the indigo, some of the henna and all that hard water buildup. My hair feels significantly lighter afterward. It also feels softer for nearly a week. I realize that could easily turn to a mushy, damaged hair feeling with overuse or too high a concentration of baking soda.
In between, I don't use oils or conditioners, just a clear heavily diluted shampoo. I know a lot of people who use baking soda and acv to clarify oils and product buildup. I realize an earlier poster said that doesn't work, but my mom effectively uses baking soda and vinegar as a cleaning agent around the house for everything from kitchen grease and bathroom grime. So, I am a believer it erodes not just cuticles but other products/oils.

[renia22]

^ Yeah I was the one that said that, and I think it's one of those things that when put under tests, doesn't really work the way people think it does. Something about that fizzy action makes it seem like it's doing something, but even when tested in drains, it was the hot water that was used afterwards that made the difference. Baking soda is abrasive and it scrubs, but it does not have oil and product dissolving abilities like a detergent. Scrubbing around the house with an abrasive, alkaline substance using elbow grease is also a little different than something you'd want to do on your hair. Constantly disrupting the acid mantle on your hair with the alkaline/ acidic cycle can do a number on your hair over time. If your routine is working for you, that's great, but this is one of those DIY things that can really go wrong:


Testing out baking soda + vinegar cleaning & oil dissolving abilities:
http://crunchybetty.com/diy-101-baking-soda-vinegar-not-so-much

http://brendid.com/why-you-should-never-use-baking-soda-and-vinegar-to-clean-clogged-drains/

What happened to this woman's knee length hair after using baking soda & vinegar long term:
http://abetterwaytothrive.com/what-years-of-baking-soda-no-poo-did-to-my-long-healthy-hair-or-when-a-natural-living-experiment-fails/

http://abetterwaytothrive.com/yes-im-sure-it-was-the-baking-soda-faq-on-the-no-poo-disaster/

[lapushka]

My dad, in the 40s & 50s & 60s used to wash his hair (always very short) with a Sunlight bar. Just the soap he washed his body with. He never did an acidic rinse (I mean, come on), and it was fine. But then it was short hair. I think regular, widespread shampoos came on the market rather late here in Belgium. He used to have an angelic curl over his head when he was about 2 with longish hair, there's this black 'n white picture, such a cute child (he has icy blue eyes). Not that other children aren't cute. ;)

[pili]

My dad, in the 40s & 50s & 60s used to wash his hair (always very short) with a Sunlight bar. Just the soap he washed his body with. He never did an acidic rinse (I mean, come on), and it was fine. But then it was short hair. I think regular, widespread shampoos came on the market rather late here in Belgium. He used to have an angelic curl over his head when he was about 2 with longish hair, there's this black 'n white picture, such a cute child (he has icy blue eyes). Not that other children aren't cute. ;)

...but family is always cuter... ;)

[lapushka]

...but family is always cuter... ;)

Yeah, that's true. :lol: ;)

[cassidy_2711]

Baking soda made my hair very soft, shiny, and defined my waves, but I noticed it made my spit ends more prominent. I never used baking soda as a normal hair wash. I only use it once in a long when my hair feels very gunky. This is very rare. I just had to use it due to college city water.

[Jadestorm]

Yes, I've heard about how bad it is/can be for your hair many times. Some people used to swear by it and used it for years without problems, but now regret having ever used it because it supposedly damaged their hair greatly. Others are still using it and recommend it to everyone, because they love it. I have personally never tried it, nor will I, because it does sound like it is or can be bad for your hair.

[Reyesuela]

Baking soda roughens the cuticle and damages hair.

This can make very slippery hair more manageable or give body to flat hair.

I won't use it, though. My hair can continue to spit hairpins out with contempt.

[lapushka]

Yes, I've heard about how bad it is/can be for your hair many times. Some people used to swear by it and used it for years without problems, but now regret having ever used it because it supposedly damaged their hair greatly. Others are still using it and recommend it to everyone, because they love it. I have personally never tried it, nor will I, because it does sound like it is or can be bad for your hair.

Sorry, but that seems rather vague. Who are these people you are referring to, because I've never on this forum had anyone claim MO/baby oil ruined their hair.

OOPS, big OOPS, sorry, disregard my previous statement. I though you were talking about MO/baby oil, must be that other thread still fresh in my mind! I apologize. :o

Yes, of course, BS didn't do much good for my hair either. :)