Did anybody else go back to using cones?

[turtlelover]

I've been no cone for a couple of months now. My hair looks fine, but I'm not sure it is honestly much different from when I used products with cones in them. No worse, but definitely not better either. A lot of the rest of you seem to have strong opinions one way or the other with cones, but I am not sure my hair even cares. I wish it would make up its mind! LOL I'm not even sure how to tell what it wants.

[school of fish]

Mine swings both ways ;)

I've discovered that it's the consistency and slip of a conditioner that has more bearing on how my hair feels and behaves rather than specifically coneless or coney. If it's thick and rich it's much more likely to work well for me than if it's runny and pourable.

Also, a short ingredient list fares better for me than one with a long list of enriching ingredients. 12 ingredients maximum is what I look for, the fewer the better.

Odd perhaps, but that's how my hair rolls ;) I just go with what works :)

[animetor7]

My hair is somewhat thick, and tangle prone, so cones are a godsend for helping to make sure I can detangle my hair properly. I also feel like they protect my ends somewhat from wear and tear. I also haven't experienced any buildup problems, I just clarify if my hair starts to feel odd. :)

[school of fish]

To address your question a bit more - I actually recently went coneless after being coney for a couple years, quite by surprise! I'm currently using Tresemme Perfectly UnDone (which is slippy as all get-out) - previously had been using Pantene Ice Shine (also a skating rink). Perfectly UnDone is coneless, Ice Shine is coney, and on me they're pretty much interchangeable on me. They both share those qualities I mentioned above - they're thick, they're rich, they're super slippy, they rinse out cleanly, and they have short ingredient lists ;)

[Arctic]

If your hair is fine with both just enjoy the freedom you have to choose products :) Nothing wrong or strange about this, cones don't need to be a divisive factor in hair care like it's often made to be on hair-forums.

My own preferences are leaning to coneless. For shampoos I wouldn't want cones, and my experience with many coney conditioners has not been very good as they seem to build up fast on my hair. Faster than non-coney conditoners usually do. They also often make my hair feel unpleasant to the touch, sort of plasticy, which can be a trichotillomania trigger to me. But I am not against cones, and can happily use a coney styling products or even conditioners when I occasionally find one that doesn't buildup in a blink of an eye. For example garnier Respons Mythic Olive conditioner is one of the good ones, I have yet to notice any buildup from it and it leaves my hair feeling nice to the touch too.

[cailinbee]

I just did! I was really happy with some cone-free conditioners all summer long but then I hit a certain length and the mechanical issues of hair that gets caught in bag straps, coat collars, etc. etc. is making me want cones more. So I just put some extra shampoo in the shower rack :)

I realize I could also bun my hair to protect it -- I'm just finding I prefer wearing my hair down more. We'll see how that works out in the long run, hehe. It's probably going to necessitate cones.

[hannabiss]

My shampoo and conditioner don't have cone but I do use a cone serum. Help to detangle my spider web hair.

[LadyCelestina]

I love cones! I don't get bad results if I use things without silicones, but I like the extra protection cones give hair, the easier detangling and shine. Also not sure if related to cones, but my hair doesn't tangle so much. With my longish curly hair, I really don't feel like going through a bottle of cone free conditioner if I can get my hair detangled much easier with a bit of coney conditioner. :D

I'm curly so of course I went through the CG phase. Now I am rather skeptical of the method :D

[pailin]

Whatever works for you. My favorite conditioner is cone free, but most cone-free conditioners I've tried, I hated. My alternate conditioners are all coney. I've decided it's not the cones/no-cones that matters for me. And I usually follow my cone-free conditioner and cone-free leave-in (Kinky Curly Knot Today - it's very slippy for me) with a silicone serum :D

[LadyCelestina]

Pailin I really like your signature picture! very pretty hair and hairstyle :)

[reilly0167]

I tried the no cone route, my hair tangles easy and I felt I was doing more damage than good, because i didn't get the slippage i needed to detangle without pulling hair out, so back to cones I went and my hair is happier for it.

[lapushka]

I was happily cone-free before hitting BSL, after that my hair loved to tangle in on itself, and needed thicker conditioners. Unfortunately the really nourishing think cone-free ones are super expensive and hard to find where I live, so silicones in my conditioners was the easiest solution ever. My HG is the HE Hello Hydration conditioner. My shampoos are mostly silicone-free (although dimethicone is OK) because of SD (seborrheic dermatitis).

[Frankenstein]

Maybe it's just me but I don't feel that cones make a real difference in preventing mechanical damage, helping with tangles etc. In fact I think they make tangles worse for me. Although, my hair does like a dose of cones when it's feeling drier than usual.

[spidermom]

I started using them again a long time ago. I like to control how much I use, so I avoid cones in shampoos and conditioners. I do like a good coney leave-in, though.

[mizukitty]

I'm coneless at the moment and quite liking it. Cones are like using a hair barrier. For no fuss people, this is great as it does protect hair. However, moisture can't easily get back in, and when ends get dry what do you do..? This is why I like cone free. I can just spritz a moisturizing spray on my hair to add moisture and slip back into my hair. When it's coated in cones (which for me happens VERY fast) it continues to stay dry even when I try to moisturize it. This probably has something to do with my hard water as well, because not only do I have product buildup but mineral as well. At the end of the day it's YMMV. And you can't do that without experimentation!

Edited to add: SheaMoisture has the same slip as some of the coniest conditioners I've used - I can hardly tell a difference in slip and moisture. I never feel deprived or like my hair is tangling into a giant knot. Glycerin is a wonderful detangler when combined with aloe gel and a drop of oil or two.

[Arctic]

Well guys, it's not like no-cone conditioners wouldn't have film forming, hair coating, build-up generating ingredients.

[Kelda]

I use them more in the winter due to the dry air causing more tangles.

[Zebra Fish]

I was cone free for 4 years. But as my hair is having problems getting length, and I was thinking what was different last time I had longer hair - cones. So I got a coney mask (amodimethicone and dimethicone) and a coney serum for ends. Shampoo and conditioner still cone free. We'll see if it helps.

As for difference cones - no cones: I really don't need them as in slip or tangling. Like my hair better w/o cones. It is a totally pita to keep up now, it is spitting out everything. But will see if it helps lengthwise.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

I am cone free and have been the last 6 months but im considering going back since I use sulphates still..

[LoveSnap]

I started sliding the 'cones back into my regimen when I started using sulfate free shampoos. My shampoos always contain non-sulfate cleansers that are capable of removing silicones. I do lean toward "water soluble" cones though. They are more common than the regular cones now, at least in what I use.

[lithostoic]

Kinda? I stopped using coney condotioners bc they weighed down my hair and weren't nourishing. But I've recently added a coney serum into my routine. Not sure how it's helped, I haven't used it these past couple washes.

[Vanilla]

Yes. I was cone free for a while and have realized I really need some cones in my life. I alternate between coney and cone free conditioner, but I use a coney serum (Chi silk infusion). My hair loves that stuff!

[Decoy24601]

I tried going cone-free a couple times. Both times, mechanical damage sent me running back to cones. I've finally found specific products that don't give me issues with buildup. I use one conditioner with amodimethicone, another conditioner that's cone-free, shampoos that are cone-free, and a coney serum.

[hypersensitive]

Cones are great, specifically light serums. They work very well during high humidity days. Nothing can beat that!!

[divinedobbie]

I was cone free for some time, maybe a year or so? I didn't really mind it but I switched back to cones (Pantene) and loved it so much I stuck with it. Haven't really found any other cone-y conditioner I like though. On the other hand, the only cone-free conditioner I tried was Tressemme.

[StefanieK]

I have been cone free for about a year but started to notice more breakage which is why I use them again. My hair seems to like them as it reduces the knots so there's less friction when I comb it :) Even though I have lots of hair the individual hairs are more on the thin side so I need to take good care of my hair if I don't want breakage to appear. But it doesn't seem to weight them down so I'm happy with my new routine (I use cones for about 3 months now)

[lapushka]

I have been cone free for about a year but started to notice more breakage which is why I use them again. My hair seems to like them as it reduces the knots so there's less friction when I comb it :) Even though I have lots of hair the individual hairs are more on the thin side so I need to take good care of my hair if I don't want breakage to appear. But it doesn't seem to weight them down so I'm happy with my new routine (I use cones for about 3 months now)

Welcome to this forum. :)

[mizukitty]

Well guys, it's not like no-cone conditioners wouldn't have film forming, hair coating, build-up generating ingredients.

The difference is water solubility. Cones require sulfates to be removed for the most part, when CO washing takes care of water soluble ingredients in cone-free products, so less detergent use I guess for me :x

[Rosetta]

My hair does better with cones (within reasonable limits - and it's better to use them in conditioners but not shampoo, obvs), so yes, I've gone back to them after being "cone-free" for a while, though that was *years* ago.

In general, I think cones are something people often make too much fuss about (here, not irl), so not wondering the OP isn't sure if they make any difference or not ;)

[Lizzie.torp]

I went cone free for a while to see how my hair looks naturally and did that for a few months. What I found was pretty healthy hair but the occasional offshoot split end. I went back to cones just so it could be ultra soft, less tangly, and safer from mechanical damage. I do, however, avoid straight dimethicone because it's too sticky for my hair. I might as well uss honey as a serum.

[ExpectoPatronum]

I go back and forth all the time. I find I can go either way in the summer, but in the winter, my hair is not soft at all unless I incorporate some cones. They aren't in my styling products, but my hair does well with a coney conditioner.

[turtlelover]

I just used cones for the first time in ages yesterday. Today, my hair is FULL of static and looks flat on top and totally lifeless. But then again, some of the cones were in my shampoo, so it could be fine if I had only used them in my conditioner. I don't remember that happening awhile back when I used cones, but my hair is longer and not layered as much on top, plus I am using henna which pulls out a lot of my wave.

[Decoy24601]

The difference is water solubility. Cones require sulfates to be removed for the most part, when CO washing takes care of water soluble ingredients in cone-free products, so less detergent use I guess for me :x

It's the emulsifiers in conditioners that remove oils etc, not the water. There are many ingredients in cone-free conditioners that aren't water-soluble and are tough to remove with a conditioner depending on the person's hair. Otherwise, oils would have to be removed by sulfates too. And based on the fact that cones are synthetic oils, I would also assume that they can be partially removed by emulsifiers in conditioners as well, but I'm not sure.

[triumphator!]

To complicate things - there are also water soluble cones!

[Llama]

I just used cones for the first time in ages yesterday. Today, my hair is FULL of static and looks flat on top and totally lifeless. But then again, some of the cones were in my shampoo, so it could be fine if I had only used them in my conditioner. I don't remember that happening awhile back when I used cones, but my hair is longer and not layered as much on top, plus I am using henna which pulls out a lot of my wave.

I used the Aussie "moist" deep conditioner last night and have had INTENSE static in my hair. Did not think it was related to the conditioner at all! So this is a silicones thing, is it?? I thought it was just the cold/dry air finally taking it's toll on me.

[mizukitty]

It's the emulsifiers in conditioners that remove oils etc, not the water. There are many ingredients in cone-free conditioners that aren't water-soluble and are tough to remove with a conditioner depending on the person's hair. Otherwise, oils would have to be removed by sulfates too. And based on the fact that cones are synthetic oils, I would also assume that they can be partially removed by emulsifiers in conditioners as well, but I'm not sure.

You're absolutely right, I worded that really poorly! Thanks for clarifying (no pun intended) it up.

[Decoy24601]

You're absolutely right, I worded that really poorly! Thanks for clarifying (no pun intended) it up.

Haha, it's alright :p.

I do personally have to be really careful about what cones I use or else I'll get awful buildup issues. Anything with dimethicone or bisaminopropyl dimethicone is a no-no for me. So far, amodimethicone works fine for me in conditioners as long as it's only light and I can use cyclopentasiloxane in a serum along with dimethiconol just fine.

[pailin]

Pailin I really like your signature picture! very pretty hair and hairstyle :)

Thank you! The hairstyle was courtesy of Lunnafindel, and the picture Mira-chan at the New York meet.

[lapushka]

I used the Aussie "moist" deep conditioner last night and have had INTENSE static in my hair. Did not think it was related to the conditioner at all! So this is a silicones thing, is it?? I thought it was just the cold/dry air finally taking it's toll on me.

Nope it isn't. I use silicones in my products all the time and haven't had static in my hair in 10+ years. I just haven't.

[Llama]

Nope it isn't. I use silicones in my products all the time and haven't had static in my hair in 10+ years. I just haven't.

Ah okay. It's not just my hair that has static, either. Every time I touch something I get zapped. Maybe it's my clothes lol

[Decoy24601]

Ah okay. It's not just my hair that has static, either. Every time I touch something I get zapped. Maybe it's my clothes lol

What is the humidity like where you live? Any time the humidity dips below about 50-60% here my hair gets super staticy. In fact, cones really cut down on static for me.

[Llama]

What is the humidity like where you live? Any time the humidity dips below about 50-60% here my hair gets super staticy. In fact, cones really cut down on static for me.

Well I checked weather.com and it says the humidity is 73%, we do have snow here right now. I just plugged in the humidifier so we'll see if that helps. I didn't have any static in my hair until yesterday and up until then I was "cone free"... and with someone else saying they got static from cones I thought maybe this was a cones thing.

[FullofGrace]

So if silicones keep moisture from getting in your hair but sulfates cleanse them out, can I use a sulfate cleanser, then my conditioner, then my silicone serum and next time I wash the silicones will get rinsed out and my conditioner will work to moisturize and the serum protects and the cycle just keeps repeating or no?

[turtlelover]

Well I checked weather.com and it says the humidity is 73%, we do have snow here right now. I just plugged in the humidifier so we'll see if that helps. I didn't have any static in my hair until yesterday and up until then I was "cone free"... and with someone else saying they got static from cones I thought maybe this was a cones thing.

I am going to go back to my cone free stuff tomorrow and see if it changes anything since the humidity is supposed to be similar. It will be an interesting experiment. :-)

[Annalouise]

So if silicones keep moisture from getting in your hair but sulfates cleanse them out, can I use a sulfate cleanser, then my conditioner, then my silicone serum and next time I wash the silicones will get rinsed out and my conditioner will work to moisturize and the serum protects and the cycle just keeps repeating or no?

Basically, this is my gripe with oils and silicones. You don't want them building up on your hair. So yes, you will have to wash the length, to have your hair clean in order to deep condition or condition effectively. Then, comes the optional phase of "sealing" the hairs. And yes, then you have to wash it off in order for your conditioner to work properly.
Or, you can just forgoe the oils and silicones and leave your hair clean and moisturized until the next wash. Then you can do scalp only washes and conditioner on the length because technically, your length has no product to remove.
It all depends on how you want to roll.:D
Myself, I would prefer a leave in conditioner that is cone free, that washes out with water. That way I am not forever washing the length with a cleanser. Some people go a week before shampooing the length. But you WILL have to cleanse the length if you are using oils or silicones.

[Decoy24601]

Sorry, but oils and cones don't prevent moisture from entering the hair shaft. They might make it a little difficult if your hair is already that dry, but if it were possible for oils and cones to keep moisture from entering hair, our hair wouldn't get wet when we wash it at all =/.

Oils and cones can actually help slow the loss of moisture when applied over wet hair, like with a conditioner, serum, or applying oils through ROO. Buildup can make your hair feel "rough", as if it's dry even after you have just washed it, but it's not going to form an impenetrable barrier around hair. It's still good to clarify from time to time to prevent buildup, and/or use products that aren't too heavy.

[animetor7]

Basically, this is my gripe with oils and silicones. You don't want them building up on your hair. So yes, you will have to wash the length, to have your hair clean in order to deep condition or condition effectively. Then, comes the optional phase of "sealing" the hairs. And yes, then you have to wash it off in order for your conditioner to work properly.
Or, you can just forgoe the oils and silicones and leave your hair clean and moisturized until the next wash. Then you can do scalp only washes and conditioner on the length because technically, your length has no product to remove.
It all depends on how you want to roll.:D
Myself, I would prefer a leave in conditioner that is cone free, that washes out with water. That way I am not forever washing the length with a cleanser. Some people go a week before shampooing the length. But you WILL have to cleanse the length if you are using oils or silicones.

I think you and I have sort of had this discussion on a similar thread before, so forgive me for repeating myself. But again, it comes down to which oils and which cones and their unique chemical properties. Oils that are able to penetrate the hair shaft for instance cannot form an occlusive layer on the hair unless applied in extreme quantities. Because of their penetrating capabilities, they are also unlikely to build up on the hair if used in appropriate quantities. 'Cones that are water soluble will not require special cleansers to remove, simply water. And so on and so forth.

As for hair being kept moisturized if you don't use cones or oils, that depends on the humidity and other environmental factors of where you live. For instance, I live in Seattle where it is humid and I don't need to do much throughout the week to keep my length happy in between wash days. But when I visit my parents who live in a much drier climate, it becomes very difficult to not end up with dried out lengths if I don't take steps to prevent the loss of moisture throughout the week. One great method for this is spritizing the length an then sealing this moisture in using an occlusive oil or 'cone. It's true that occlusives can lock out moisture if used on dry hair, but if used on damp hair, they can also seal it in. I think it's very important to take climate into account when talking about what will best protect hair from drying out. For example, humectants can be very useful in pulling more moisture into the hair if you live in a humid environment. They can wreak havoc on hair if used in a dry climate. The humectant is still doing the same thing, drawing moisture to itself, but in this case hair often has more moisture than the surrounding air and so the humectant will pull from it rather than the environment.

TLDR: Oils and silicones are not a monolithic group with identical chemical properties, and it is these individual properties that are important in buildup and moisture prevention/protection (occlusivity). Environmental factors are incredibly important in products' effects on hair.

[Chromis]

I tried going back to cones a few years ago for a bit. My hair looked so sleek at first and it was soooooo soft. But then came the split ends. So many split ends and so much breakage. And my scalp was angry too.

Back to shampoo bars. Happy scalp, back to only my normal amount of splits and very little breakage. Less shedding too.

[lapushka]

Sorry, but oils and cones don't prevent moisture from entering the hair shaft. They might make it a little difficult if your hair is already that dry, but if it were possible for oils and cones to keep moisture from entering hair, our hair wouldn't get wet when we wash it at all =/.

Oils and cones can actually help slow the loss of moisture when applied over wet hair, like with a conditioner, serum, or applying oils through ROO. Buildup can make your hair feel "rough", as if it's dry even after you have just washed it, but it's not going to form an impenetrable barrier around hair. It's still good to clarify from time to time to prevent buildup, and/or use products that aren't too heavy.

Exactly! That is just information that is out there, kind of like a "myth".

[FullofGrace]

So, silicones boil down to personal preference not science? Is one hair type or another more likely to find a silicone product beneficial? I have been using them quite unknowingly prior to finding this board. Now I will experiment with removal of them and see what that does.

[lapushka]

So, silicones boil down to personal preference not science? Is one hair type or another more likely to find a silicone product beneficial? I have been using them quite unknowingly prior to finding this board. Now I will experiment with removal of them and see what that does.

No, you just have to experiment with it, and find out what it is your hair prefers. You can spot this at the amount of tangles you get after washing and after having applied your conditioner (when combing it out either in the shower or post wash).

I try to avoid silicones in my shampoos, but that's all. I can stand to have dimethicone in there (tried & tested). But I have to be careful with my SD (seborrheic dermatitis). I do like to have silicones in my conditioners, though. Sometimes you get conditioners that are too light (even with silicones) and they tend to get you all tangled up. It's only after years and years, of trying different products, that you will get to find out what your HGs are. For me that is the HE Hello Hydration conditioner. Hands down! 0 tangles, if I use a good first C with it (my method is WCC).

[julee]

Just went back to cones a couple of months ago, so far so good! Less tangles, less breakage from tangles etc. For me it was a matter of finding the cones my hair likes.

[Mrstran]

Cones are a must for me; as the condition of my hair would give you nightmares. The conditioner I use is loaded with them.
I use it twice, let it sit under a cap, rinse SOME out, and apply yet more silicone (mask) on it.
Excessive any?

I imagine though that healthy hair like youres wouldn't require nearly as much. It must be wonderful having healthy hair.
I cannot wait to have healthy hair too. This damage is exhausting!

Maybe mix in a dab with regular conditioner every so often? Don't take my word on this though, I'm a complete newbie and prone to screw ups.

[animetor7]

So, silicones boil down to personal preference not science? Is one hair type or another more likely to find a silicone product beneficial? I have been using them quite unknowingly prior to finding this board. Now I will experiment with removal of them and see what that does.

Nope. But the science of 'cones is misunderstood by many. The suffix "cone" in chemistry just refers to a specific class of molecules that make a polymer containing oxygen, silicon, carbon, and hydrogen and generally act as sealants. It doesn't mean that all 'cones are completely occlusive, or that they all have the same chemical properties. They do similar things because they are part of the same class of chemicals, but their properties are not identical. It's a bit like saying that all teachers do the same thing. Sure they do a similar thing, but some teach science, some teach math, some teach history and there are teachers that have vastly different skill levels and effectiveness at teaching. 'cones are the same way. They all act as sealants, but in many different ways, and to different degrees. As for individuals, there is preference in terms of how people want their hair to feel, but the silicone will do the same thing for everyone: form a semi-occlusive layer that allows moisture in or out of the hair shaft to varying degrees depending on the specific silicone used. Another myth is that you need a clarifying shampoo to get rid of any silicone you use, not so, some, such as most dimethicones are water soluble and will be removed by rinsing alone if you don't want to do anything else. Others do require clarifying, but not nearly as extremely as many people think, and buildup horror stories usually occurs when one hasn't clarified for an extremely long time, or wasn't effectively removing minerals from the hair when clarifying/chelating, it's usually not extreme silicone buildup. Anyway, I hope that helps, and I'm sorry if it turned into too much of a tangent.

[littlestarface]

Nope. But the science of 'cones is misunderstood by many. The suffix "cone" in chemistry just refers to a specific class of molecules that make a polymer containing oxygen, silicon, carbon, and hydrogen and generally act as sealants. It doesn't mean that all 'cones are completely occlusive, or that they all have the same chemical properties. They do similar things because they are part of the same class of chemicals, but their properties are not identical. It's a bit like saying that all teachers do the same thing. Sure they do a similar thing, but some teach science, some teach math, some teach history and there are teachers that have vastly different skill levels and effectiveness at teaching. 'cones are the same way. They all act as sealants, but in many different ways, and to different degrees. As for individuals, there is preference in terms of how people want their hair to feel, but the silicone will do the same thing for everyone: form a semi-occlusive layer that allows moisture in or out of the hair shaft to varying degrees depending on the specific silicone used. Another myth is that you need a clarifying shampoo to get rid of any silicone you use, not so, some, such as dimethicone are water soluble and will be removed by rinsing alone if you don't want to do anything else. Others do require clarifying, but not nearly as extremely as many people think, and buildup horror stories usually occurs when one hasn't clarified for an extremely long time, or wasn't effectively removing minerals from the hair when clarifying/chelating, it's usually not extreme silicone buildup. Anyway, I hope that helps, and I'm sorry if it turned into too much of a tangent.

So dimethicone is water soluble? I read all the time that one is not unless it has some words before it or after it like copolyol or Peg ones.

[animetor7]

So dimethicone is water soluble? I read all the time that one is not unless it has some words before it or after it like copolyol or Peg ones.

You're right about dimethicone copolyol is water soluble, and other dimethicones aren't as readily soluble in water, but they will still dissolve. I was just trying to simplify the explanation a bit because it can get confusing.

[Cinnamonagouti]

I actually did go back to them (at least temporarily) only yesterday. I caught head lice from the children I work with and the stuff I used to remove them had mineral oil in it, so I figured I might as well try out the TRESemmé coney conditioner I accidentally bought a while ago instead of my usual.My hair feels amazing! It's so soft and I can run my hands through it smoothly, all the way down without getting cauhgt, which I haven't been able to since APL or something... However I showered at night and then slept with a braid, so I don't know yet how it will affect my curls - if they are weighed down I will prpbably go back to my usual routine without 'cones. Another thing that makes me reluctant using cones, is that i looove my shampoo bars. And they're SLS free, so if I want to use cones I also have to find a new shampoo.

[calmyogi]

I don't hate cones necessarily, I use them when I feel like it. They tend to inhibit my natural hair curl. That's my only squabble with them. When I'm being lazy about my hair I use coney conditioners to protect the hairs. Lately I have been using the Aussie moist shampoo and conditioner.

Oh, and I have found that moisturizing shampoos seem to help my scalp. Sulphate free shampoos don't clean it well and build up. Shampoos with sulphates clean it well and will get me a day or two without shampooing again, but unless I'm using a dandruff shampoo, or one for moisturizing my scalp gets itchy. It doesn't get irritated or red and the skin never breaks so I'm really sure I have just dry scalp. The flakes are always white as well.

[Annalouise]

I think you and I have sort of had this discussion on a similar thread before, so forgive me for repeating myself. But again, it comes down to which oils and which cones and their unique chemical properties. Oils that are able to penetrate the hair shaft for instance cannot form an occlusive layer on the hair unless applied in extreme quantities. Because of their penetrating capabilities, they are also unlikely to build up on the hair if used in appropriate quantities. 'Cones that are water soluble will not require special cleansers to remove, simply water. And so on and so forth.

As for hair being kept moisturized if you don't use cones or oils, that depends on the humidity and other environmental factors of where you live. For instance, I live in Seattle where it is humid and I don't need to do much throughout the week to keep my length happy in between wash days. But when I visit my parents who live in a much drier climate, it becomes very difficult to not end up with dried out lengths if I don't take steps to prevent the loss of moisture throughout the week. One great method for this is spritizing the length an then sealing this moisture in using an occlusive oil or 'cone. It's true that occlusives can lock out moisture if used on dry hair, but if used on damp hair, they can also seal it in. I think it's very important to take climate into account when talking about what will best protect hair from drying out. For example, humectants can be very useful in pulling more moisture into the hair if you live in a humid environment. They can wreak havoc on hair if used in a dry climate. The humectant is still doing the same thing, drawing moisture to itself, but in this case hair often has more moisture than the surrounding air and so the humectant will pull from it rather than the environment.

TLDR: Oils and silicones are not a monolithic group with identical chemical properties, and it is these individual properties that are important in buildup and moisture prevention/protection (occlusivity). Environmental factors are incredibly important in products' effects on hair.

Ok, thank you. :) I think the hair spritzing with water is a great idea. My hair loves the west coast. You're lucky to live in Seattle. So beautiful!!

[HairPlease]

I tried going back on cones as an experiment, only to soon remember why I quit the darn things. My hair seems to accumulate buildup instantaneously, which is odd for bleached locks.

[Annalouise]

Sorry, but oils and cones don't prevent moisture from entering the hair shaft. They might make it a little difficult if your hair is already that dry, but if it were possible for oils and cones to keep moisture from entering hair, our hair wouldn't get wet when we wash it at all =/.

Oils and cones can actually help slow the loss of moisture when applied over wet hair, like with a conditioner, serum, or applying oils through ROO. Buildup can make your hair feel "rough", as if it's dry even after you have just washed it, but it's not going to form an impenetrable barrier around hair. It's still good to clarify from time to time to prevent buildup, and/or use products that aren't too heavy.

Just to play the devil's advocate, indulge me....:D how is it not possible for cones to trap moisture "out" of the hair if what they purport to do is trap moisture "inside" the hair? A cone or an oil is not that sophisticated that they will allow moisture to move "in" to the hair and not allow it to move "out" of the hair.


Exactly! That is just information that is out there, kind of like a "myth".

I think we need a scientific explanation. :)


So, silicones boil down to personal preference not science? Is one hair type or another more likely to find a silicone product beneficial? I have been using them quite unknowingly prior to finding this board. Now I will experiment with removal of them and see what that does.

In my humble opinion, yes. I believe, unless someone can show me the science that demonstrates the opposite, that fine hair is less able to handle oils and silicones because of the structure of fine hair.:shrug:


Nope. But the science of 'cones is misunderstood by many. The suffix "cone" in chemistry just refers to a specific class of molecules that make a polymer containing oxygen, silicon, carbon, and hydrogen and generally act as sealants. It doesn't mean that all 'cones are completely occlusive, or that they all have the same chemical properties. They do similar things because they are part of the same class of chemicals, but their properties are not identical. It's a bit like saying that all teachers do the same thing. Sure they do a similar thing, but some teach science, some teach math, some teach history and there are teachers that have vastly different skill levels and effectiveness at teaching. 'cones are the same way. They all act as sealants, but in many different ways, and to different degrees. As for individuals, there is preference in terms of how people want their hair to feel, but the silicone will do the same thing for everyone: form a semi-occlusive layer that allows moisture in or out of the hair shaft to varying degrees depending on the specific silicone used. Another myth is that you need a clarifying shampoo to get rid of any silicone you use, not so, some, such as most dimethicones are water soluble and will be removed by rinsing alone if you don't want to do anything else. Others do require clarifying, but not nearly as extremely as many people think, and buildup horror stories usually occurs when one hasn't clarified for an extremely long time, or wasn't effectively removing minerals from the hair when clarifying/chelating, it's usually not extreme silicone buildup. Anyway, I hope that helps, and I'm sorry if it turned into too much of a tangent.

I agree with you that they are "sealants". I don't understand your sentence in bold though. If they are "sealants" then they stop moisture from moving in and out of the hair shaft by definition by coating the strand of hair and not allowing the moisture, ie water, to either escape or enter the hair.:) Does it not stand to reason that if you have oil all over your hair, and then you spritz your hair with water, that the oil will prevent that water from going into the hair to some degree?

[Llama]

In my humble opinion, yes. I believe, unless someone can show me the science that demonstrates the opposite, that fine hair is less able to handle oils and silicones because of the structure of fine hair.:shrug:


Why do you think fine hair isn't able to handle oils and silicones?
My fine hair does very well with both oils and products that contain silicone.

[lapushka]

I think we need a scientific explanation. :)

I think animetor7 explained it to you 2 times now. ;)

[animetor7]

Just to play the devil's advocate, indulge me....:D how is it not possible for cones to trap moisture "out" of the hair if what they purport to do is trap moisture "inside" the hair? A cone or an oil is not that sophisticated that they will allow moisture to move "in" to the hair and not allow it to move "out" of the hair.



I think we need a scientific explanation. :)



In my humble opinion, yes. I believe, unless someone can show me the science that demonstrates the opposite, that fine hair is less able to handle oils and silicones because of the structure of fine hair.:shrug:



I agree with you that they are "sealants". I don't understand your sentence in bold though. If they are "sealants" then they stop moisture from moving in and out of the hair shaft by definition by coating the strand of hair and not allowing the moisture, ie water, to either escape or enter the hair.:) Does it not stand to reason that if you have oil all over your hair, and then you spritz your hair with water, that the oil will prevent that water from going into the hair to some degree?

Taking these one at a time:

Silicones can trap moisture inside the hair by forming a semi-occlusive layer. This works when hair is damp but not wet because many silicones are at least partially soluble in water, thus they don't prevent water from entering the hair because they dissolve and can be rinsed away but they can help prevent evaporation of water inside the hair shaft because there isn't enough water there to dissolve them. It's like if you have a sweatshirt and go out in a light drizzle, you won't get wet underneath it. But, if you were to wear a sweatshirt and then jump in a pool you would get wet underneath it. The sweatshirt can prevent some water from reaching you, but not everything. This is the same idea with chemical compounds including oils and silicones, they form a semi-occlusive layer, not a perfect protection from water entering or leaving the hair shaft.

For a scientific explanation of silicones you can read my earlier post that you've quoted here, or I can go into more detail in an article or PM.

Barring differences in texture (curls have more disulfide bridges than straight hair does), fine hair has the same structure as other types of hair, the outer alpha keratin layer is just thinner. If you mean "handle" in terms of look greasy or something like that, then maybe fine hair would be more quickly affected by oils because it tends to fall flatter to begin with, but "handle" in terms of likelihood of causing damage doesn't make sense. Fine hair would actually probably need more protection (which could be in the form of oils or silicones) since the outer alpha keratin layer is already thinner and it's easier to damage fine hair.

As for the sealants bit, sure that's what sealants do. But they do so to varying degrees, see the teacher analogy in my previous post, or if you want another analogy: take the same sweatshirt scenario described above but compare these two situations using the sweatshirt with the same two situations ( a light rain vs jumping into a pool) with a rubber rain coat. Both the sweatshirt and the rain coat are sealants in the sense that they protect you from getting wet when you are exposed to water. However, the amount of water each sealant can handle before the barrier is no longer effective is very different. The sweatshirt can handle only a small amount of water before some leaks through, while the rubber rain coat can handle a lot more. This same principle applies to chemical sealants, some can handle very little water (or whatever else they're sealing out) before the barrier doesn't work, and some can handle significantly more. Also you must keep in mind that not all oils are occlusive. Some are penetrating oils and do not form an occlusive barrier or act as sealants at all unless you were to apply a VERY thick layer of them. This would be akin to wrapping yourself in say 1000 layers of tissue paper before going out in the rain. Sure in that scenario the tissue paper might protect you from getting wet, but that's not the usual quantity or purpose of tissue paper. As for occlusive oils they each have their own chemical properties and varying degrees of occlusivity just as different silicones do.

I hope this helps you to understand. I think the basic issue is taking chemical properties as an all or nothing sort of idea, when in reality they are chemical properties that are more on a spectrum, or scale, with many varying degrees between chemical compounds.

[ElisabethS]

Well I checked weather.com and it says the humidity is 73%, we do have snow here right now. I just plugged in the humidifier so we'll see if that helps. I didn't have any static in my hair until yesterday and up until then I was "cone free"... and with someone else saying they got static from cones I thought maybe this was a cones thing.

i get static from cones too. it's like a switch. a wash without cones - no static. next wash with cones - static. no matter the humidity.

[Decoy24601]

Because, as said multiple times, "sealants" for hair don't *actually* seal out or in all moisture. Cones/oil help *slow* the loss or absorption or moisture.

It's common sense. Load your hair up with oils and cones, hop in the shower, and your hair is still going to get soaking wet, because moisture can still enter the hair shaft. It just does so less easily.

[turtlelover]

i get static from cones too. it's like a switch. a wash without cones - no static. next wash with cones - static. no matter the humidity.

I used no cone stuff today, and the static is gone so maybe I'm on to something. I didn't notice this in the summer, so maybe it is just a winter thing.

[cherrybird]

Taking these one at a time:

Silicones can trap moisture inside the hair by forming a semi-occlusive layer. This works when hair is damp but not wet because many silicones are at least partially soluble in water, thus they don't prevent water from entering the hair because they dissolve and can be rinsed away but they can help prevent evaporation of water inside the hair shaft because there isn't enough water there to dissolve them. It's like if you have a sweatshirt and go out in a light drizzle, you won't get wet underneath it. But, if you were to wear a sweatshirt and then jump in a pool you would get wet underneath it. The sweatshirt can prevent some water from reaching you, but not everything. This is the same idea with chemical compounds including oils and silicones, they form a semi-occlusive layer, not a perfect protection from water entering or leaving the hair shaft.

For a scientific explanation of silicones you can read my earlier post that you've quoted here, or I can go into more detail in an article or PM.

Barring differences in texture (curls have more disulfide bridges than straight hair does), fine hair has the same structure as other types of hair, the outer alpha keratin layer is just thinner. If you mean "handle" in terms of look greasy or something like that, then maybe fine hair would be more quickly affected by oils because it tends to fall flatter to begin with, but "handle" in terms of likelihood of causing damage doesn't make sense. Fine hair would actually probably need more protection (which could be in the form of oils or silicones) since the outer alpha keratin layer is already thinner and it's easier to damage fine hair.

As for the sealants bit, sure that's what sealants do. But they do so to varying degrees, see the teacher analogy in my previous post, or if you want another analogy: take the same sweatshirt scenario described above but compare these two situations using the sweatshirt with the same two situations ( a light rain vs jumping into a pool) with a rubber rain coat. Both the sweatshirt and the rain coat are sealants in the sense that they protect you from getting wet when you are exposed to water. However, the amount of water each sealant can handle before the barrier is no longer effective is very different. The sweatshirt can handle only a small amount of water before some leaks through, while the rubber rain coat can handle a lot more. This same principle applies to chemical sealants, some can handle very little water (or whatever else they're sealing out) before the barrier doesn't work, and some can handle significantly more. Also you must keep in mind that not all oils are occlusive. Some are penetrating oils and do not form an occlusive barrier or act as sealants at all unless you were to apply a VERY thick layer of them. This would be akin to wrapping yourself in say 1000 layers of tissue paper before going out in the rain. Sure in that scenario the tissue paper might protect you from getting wet, but that's not the usual quantity or purpose of tissue paper. As for occlusive oils they each have their own chemical properties and varying degrees of occlusivity just as different silicones do.

I hope this helps you to understand. I think the basic issue is taking chemical properties as an all or nothing sort of idea, when in reality they are chemical properties that are more on a spectrum, or scale, with many varying degrees between chemical compounds.

Well today I learned something new, thanks!

I love the way my hair feels when I use silicone, but it does not curl as much. I think it's being weighed down as I do use a lot of product...

[ReadingRenee]

What a fascinating discussion, thank you.

I inadvertantly went back to using cones. I got a new shampoo and conditioner that for some reason I didn't see a cone in the ingredient list but when I looked at it again after using it for about a week I noticed they had dimethicone and amodimethicone. I had noticed my hair was very silky and a little straighter. That is usually the only reason I don't use silicones, they seem to remove my waves a lot more. Sometimes I like that though.

So, what I am taking from this conversation is that if have dry hair that I am trying to moisturize, and I am going to apply a coney or oily sealant to my hair, I should do it when its wet and not dry? I have always oiled dry so now I wonder if I have been doing it wrong all along. I will try it the other way after my next hair washing.

[Annalouise]

In my humble opinion, yes. I believe, unless someone can show me the science that demonstrates the opposite, that fine hair is less able to handle oils and silicones because of the structure of fine hair.:shrug:



Why do you think fine hair isn't able to handle oils and silicones?
My fine hair does very well with both oils and products that contain silicone.

See my original statement. I said less able not unable.
Everything we put on our hair has a purpose, or we wouldn't do it hopefully as rational creatures.
So what is the purpose of using a sealant?
I am merely stating that fine hair is structurally different to medium and coarse hair. Then given the purpose of the sealant,
you can relate that to the structure of the strand.:knit:

[Annalouise]

animetor7 ~ You didn't answer my questions but repeated your information.:) It's okay, no worries. Regarding structure: a fine hair strand has no medulla, it is just cuticle and cortex. That is why you can't feel it when you roll it in between your fingers.
Regarding oils, we've all done dishes. If you coat a plate in oil you can't rinse the oil off with water, you need a cleanser. So too with the silicones you quoted as "partially soluble" in water.
Regarding sealants, the only way you are getting water back into the hair after sealing it is because you have cleansed the hair and removed the oil or silicone, thus allowing water back into the hair. Which you will then re-seal. And so the cycle goes.

[lapushka]

animetor7 ~ You didn't answer my questions but repeated your information.:) It's okay, no worries. Regarding structure: a fine hair strand has no medulla, it is just cuticle and cortex. That is why you can't feel it when you roll it in between your fingers.
Regarding oils, we've all done dishes. If you coat a plate in oil you can't rinse the oil off with water, you need a cleanser. So too with the silicones you quoted as "partially soluble" in water.
Regarding sealants, the only way you are getting water back into the hair after sealing it is because you have cleansed the hair and removed the oil or silicone, thus allowing water back into the hair. Which you will then re-seal. And so the cycle goes.

Then how do you explain conditioner getting oil off, and hair getting wet after having coated it with silicones or oil.

[mizukitty]

animetor7, thanks for taking the time to write all of that. It was a truly informative read and I learned a lot about something I'm really interested in. I also sort of fell victim to the 'cones are bad craze, but you totally debunked that. Thank you Decoy24601 too!

[Annalouise]

Then how do you explain conditioner getting oil off, and hair getting wet after having coated it with silicones or oil.

Most conditioners contain a cleansing agent or agents that help it to rinse off clean. If a conditioner was just oil, it wouldn't rinse off the hair with water. That is why they are formulated with 15-40 ingredients.
If you put oil on a plate, and rinse it under water the oil does not come off with water. It's the same thing with hair. If you coat your hair in oil, and then stand under the shower, the water will not remove the oil.

[lapushka]

Most conditioners contain a cleansing agent or agents that help it to rinse off clean. If a conditioner was just oil, it wouldn't rinse off the hair with water. That is why they are formulated with 15-40 ingredients.
If you put oil on a plate, and rinse it under water the oil does not come off with water. It's the same thing with hair. If you coat your hair in oil, and then stand under the shower, the water will not remove the oil.

My conditioners don't contain cleansing agents. Maybe CO-washes do, but regular conditioners, I doubt it.

Could you maybe post ingredients of a particular conditioner (a regular one), and point out to us where the cleansing agents are? :)

[animetor7]

animetor7 ~ You didn't answer my questions but repeated your information.:) It's okay, no worries. Regarding structure: a fine hair strand has no medulla, it is just cuticle and cortex. That is why you can't feel it when you roll it in between your fingers.
Regarding oils, we've all done dishes. If you coat a plate in oil you can't rinse the oil off with water, you need a cleanser. So too with the silicones you quoted as "partially soluble" in water.
Regarding sealants, the only way you are getting water back into the hair after sealing it is because you have cleansed the hair and removed the oil or silicone, thus allowing water back into the hair. Which you will then re-seal. And so the cycle goes.

Yes, I repeated information because you keep insisting on repeating the same things that the science doesn't back up and so I'm trying to address specific points you brought up to try and explain the scientific definition of silicones and their properties. So yes there is repeated information, but that's because you and I have had this same conversation before.

And nope, fine hair has a medulla, cortex, and cuticle just like nearly all other human hair (barring genetic mutations usually associated with disease). Here is my source: https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/july2000/deedric1.htm an article from the FBI forensic analysis manual about human hair and how to identify it in crime scenes. The part that's most important to this discussion are the microscopy pictures at the bottom showing different hair types and this quote from a section describing differences between thick and thin hair "In thick hair the cuticle is significantly thicker than the cuticle of finer hair types...". Then if you look at the microscopy pictures you'll see that structurally hair is the same, there are differences in the features. For example with skin, all human epidermal cells have the same structure (again barring genetic diseases). The difference in skin color results from a unique amount of melanin and other pigments deposited inside the skin cell as controlled by your individual genetics. But the structure of human skin cells remains the same. Similarly, some people have a thicker outer cuticle on their skin cells, but nearly humans have this outer cuticle and all the other basic structural parts of human skin.

Ok, have you ever oiled wood though? The problem in comparing dishes to hair is that dishes aren't a porous surface and all hair is, at least to some degree. A more apt analogy is to compare the hair to wood. If you oil dry wood with the right type of oil (a penetrating oil) it will soak in, not sit on top, and will not need to be removed. If you use a non-penetrating oil on the wood it will just sit on top and won't help anything. And no oils aren't like silicones because they are hydrophobic and never soluble in water without some sort of intermediate, usually a surfactant. Some silicones are hydrophilic and are readily dissolved in water, this is not an opinion, this is scientific fact. As for "partially soluble" this usually means that the substance is dissolved more easily in another solvent, or when an intermediate is present, but with enough solvent present will still dissolve. There is plenty of water involved in washing hair to dissolve even these partially soluble silicones with few exceptions that are not typically used in hair care (i.e. bonding agents used in silicone based nails).

I will try again with explaining sealing. Silicones DO NOT create an impenetrable barrier, they do create a barrier which is why they are called sealants. That's all the classification "sealant" means, the ability to form a barrier. Technically coffee filters act as sealants, they do create a barrier and resistance. They are just really bad ones since their barrier is easily penetrable by water.

I'll repeat again, if something is water soluble it's going to be rinsed out in the shower or bath. You DO NOT need a special cleanser to remove things that are water soluble. Most silicones are at least partially water soluble and are removed in the shower.

ETA: Conditioners do usually contain surfactants in order to bind the ingredients in the conditioner together. But they are very, very mild as compared to surfactants found in soaps or shampoos.

Also thank you to those of you who have liked these longer, sciencey posts, I've enjoyed writing them and trying to bring some science into the discussion so that people can understand what is myth and what is real in order to make more informed choices. I don't have time today, but later this week I could try to collect a lot of this information about silicones in an article or blog post. Any interest in that?

[wispe]

-snip-

Also thank you to those of you who have liked these longer, sciencey posts, I've enjoyed writing them and trying to bring some science into the discussion so that people can understand what is myth and what is real in order to make more informed choices. I don't have time today, but later this week I could try to collect a lot of this information about silicones in an article or blog post. Any interest in that?

I'd be interested in reading that! I've found this discussion fascinating and very helpful.

[lapushka]

Also thank you to those of you who have liked these longer, sciencey posts, I've enjoyed writing them and trying to bring some science into the discussion so that people can understand what is myth and what is real in order to make more informed choices. I don't have time today, but later this week I could try to collect a lot of this information about silicones in an article or blog post. Any interest in that?

For sure, yes! :D Thank you for devoting your time to explaining things!

[Llama]

Yes, I repeated information because you keep insisting on repeating the same things that the science doesn't back up and so I'm trying to address specific points you brought up to try and explain the scientific definition of silicones and their properties. So yes there is repeated information, but that's because you and I have had this same conversation before.

And nope, fine hair has a medulla, cortex, and cuticle just like nearly all other human hair (barring genetic mutations usually associated with disease). Here is my source: https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/about-us/lab/forensic-science-communications/fsc/july2000/deedric1.htm an article from the FBI forensic analysis manual about human hair and how to identify it in crime scenes. The part that's most important to this discussion are the microscopy pictures at the bottom showing different hair types and this quote from a section describing differences between thick and thin hair "In thick hair the cuticle is significantly thicker than the cuticle of finer hair types...". Then if you look at the microscopy pictures you'll see that structurally hair is the same, there are differences in the features. For example with skin, all human epidermal cells have the same structure (again barring genetic diseases). The difference in skin color results from a unique amount of melanin and other pigments deposited inside the skin cell as controlled by your individual genetics. But the structure of human skin cells remains the same. Similarly, some people have a thicker outer cuticle on their skin cells, but nearly humans have this outer cuticle and all the other basic structural parts of human skin.

Ok, have you ever oiled wood though? The problem in comparing dishes to hair is that dishes aren't a porous surface and all hair is, at least to some degree. A more apt analogy is to compare the hair to wood. If you oil dry wood with the right type of oil (a penetrating oil) it will soak in, not sit on top, and will not need to be removed. If you use a non-penetrating oil on the wood it will just sit on top and won't help anything. And no oils aren't like silicones because they are hydrophobic and never soluble in water without some sort of intermediate, usually a surfactant. Some silicones are hydrophilic and are readily dissolved in water, this is not an opinion, this is scientific fact. As for "partially soluble" this usually means that the substance is dissolved more easily in another solvent, or when an intermediate is present, but with enough solvent present will still dissolve. There is plenty of water involved in washing hair to dissolve even these partially soluble silicones with few exceptions that are not typically used in hair care (i.e. bonding agents used in silicone based nails).

I will try again with explaining sealing. Silicones DO NOT create an impenetrable barrier, they do create a barrier which is why they are called sealants. That's all the classification "sealant" means, the ability to form a barrier. Technically coffee filters act as sealants, they do create a barrier and resistance. They are just really bad ones since their barrier is easily penetrable by water.

I'll repeat again, if something is water soluble it's going to be rinsed out in the shower or bath. You DO NOT need a special cleanser to remove things that are water soluble. Most silicones are at least partially water soluble and are removed in the shower.

ETA: Conditioners do usually contain surfactants in order to bind the ingredients in the conditioner together. But they are very, very mild as compared to surfactants found in soaps or shampoos.

Also thank you to those of you who have liked these longer, sciencey posts, I've enjoyed writing them and trying to bring some science into the discussion so that people can understand what is myth and what is real in order to make more informed choices. I don't have time today, but later this week I could try to collect a lot of this information about silicones in an article or blog post. Any interest in that?

You have very informative posts!
Although, regarding the fine hair structure- when I was in cosmetology school, I remember they taught us that fine hair has no medulla...basically missing an entire layer that people with coarse hair have and I remember being shocked. Lol.

[Wildcat Diva]

This article explains how the polar end of a water soluble silicone molecule combination helps it to come off the hair with or without a cleansing agent.

Chemically attach a water-soluble ingredient like Polyethylene glycol or a protein to a silicone and now it has a polar end. That polar end (which would prefer to rinse away with water because "like dissolves like") helps drag the silicone away with rinsing or cleansing. So you get the benefits of silicone and none of the residue, or at least far less. If the silicone is attached to a protein, even better because proteins bond to the damaged parts of your hair - so the undamaged parts get a dose of silicone-protection and the undamaged parts are protein-enriched.

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/riffing-on-silicones.html?m=1

I think at the end she means to say damaged parts instead get the protein.

[littlestarface]

This article explains how the polar end of a water soluble silicone molecule combination helps it to come off the hair with or without a cleansing agent.

Chemically attach a water-soluble ingredient like Polyethylene glycol or a protein to a silicone and now it has a polar end. That polar end (which would prefer to rinse away with water because "like dissolves like") helps drag the silicone away with rinsing or cleansing. So you get the benefits of silicone and none of the residue, or at least far less. If the silicone is attached to a protein, even better because proteins bond to the damaged parts of your hair - so the undamaged parts get a dose of silicone-protection and the undamaged parts are protein-enriched.

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/riffing-on-silicones.html?m=1

I think at the end she means to say damaged parts instead get the protein.

Thats a nice page thanks.

[truepeacenik]

I go back and forth. I used a spray with dimethicone for a while ,but tired of the scent.
I have one conditioner with cones, Kirkland moisture rich, which is mostly for my partner who needs cones to protect his hair from himself.

I'll use it if I get gnarly tangles or if I need to hide random splits for an event.

[LadyCelestina]

My conditioners don't contain cleansing agents. Maybe CO-washes do, but regular conditioners, I doubt it.

Could you maybe post ingredients of a particular conditioner (a regular one), and point out to us where the cleansing agents are? :)

They might very well do. For example cationic surfactants. Once it's not 5:30 am, I can come back with a link to some info :D

[LadyCelestina]

Off topic guys, but I wonder if any of have noticed that cones/non penetrating oils do somewhat sink into you hair? I don't know what the science would be, but often if I slightly overdo it with my coney serum or conditioner, by next day my hair feels fine. My hair is coarse, expcept for maybe few strands around ears and nape.

[renia22]

It's true about mild cleansing agents being found in conditioners. Here are a few (cationic surfactants):

Behentrimonium Methosulfate *
Dicetyldimonium Chloride *
Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine *
Cetrimonium Chloride
Stearyalkonium Chloride

LadyCelestina- I only notice that with very well formulated products that don't make my hair greasy (Kiehl's silk groom serum, Aveda light elements). Other than that, if I go over the tipping point and overdo it, I have to wash my hair and start over. My hair is fine, though, so it can't handle a lot of product. I'm sure people with thicker/ more hair can get away with it more than I can.

[Salwety]

I tried some cone free conditioners, but still using those with silicone basically because they have thick consistency, and holds my hair better.

As for products that disappear or get absorbed by the hair, I have noticed that with almost all the products I apply, natural or not, cone or cone free. It just disappears.
I think it has to do with hair porosity.

[mizukitty]

Off topic guys, but I wonder if any of have noticed that cones/non penetrating oils do somewhat sink into you hair? I don't know what the science would be, but often if I slightly overdo it with my coney serum or conditioner, by next day my hair feels fine. My hair is coarse, expcept for maybe few strands around ears and nape.

The cyclo XXX cone family of silicones are volatile and evaporate off your hair after you apply them! Pretty cool, actually!

[lapushka]

It's true about mild cleansing agents being found in conditioners. Here are a few (cationic surfactants):

Behentrimonium Methosulfate *
Dicetyldimonium Chloride *
Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine *
Cetrimonium Chloride
Stearyalkonium Chloride

LadyCelestina- I only notice that with very well formulated products that don't make my hair greasy (Kiehl's silk groom serum, Aveda light elements). Other than that, if I go over the tipping point and overdo it, I have to wash my hair and start over. My hair is fine, though, so it can't handle a lot of product. I'm sure people with thicker/ more hair can get away with it more than I can.

Maybe I just never noticed, because conditioners have never really "cleansed" for me. But maybe that is because I have a finicky scalp that needs to be squeaky clean or otherwise complains.

Also, not all silicone conditioners are created equal. My HE HH is a good one, but it is designed for dry, damaged hair, so is *very* moisturizing and detangling. I have plenty of silicone conditioners that are "lighter" and don't "nourish" or detangle as well. I think the same goes for silicone-free. I now have a hair mask by Aldi (Kyrell brand) that has argan oil as the 3rd ingredient and has no silicones and it is as "heavy" as my HE HH. So it varies. You really have to find a product that suits you, silicones or no.

[Rosetta]

Also thank you to those of you who have liked these longer, sciencey posts, I've enjoyed writing them and trying to bring some science into the discussion so that people can understand what is myth and what is real in order to make more informed choices. I don't have time today, but later this week I could try to collect a lot of this information about silicones in an article or blog post. Any interest in that?
Yes, and it should be made as a sticky on this site (if possible) ;)

[lithostoic]

I use sulfates on my scalp because I've yet to find a very cleansing sulfate free shampoo. Will try the shea moisture deep cleansing or whatever. I don't use cones in conditioners, but I like them in serums. It's just dimethiconol so no sulfates will be fine.

[renia22]

Maybe I just never noticed, because conditioners have never really "cleansed" for me. But maybe that is because I have a finicky scalp that needs to be squeaky clean or otherwise complains.

Also, not all silicone conditioners are created equal. My HE HH is a good one, but it is designed for dry, damaged hair, so is *very* moisturizing and detangling. I have plenty of silicone conditioners that are "lighter" and don't "nourish" or detangle as well. I think the same goes for silicone-free. I now have a hair mask by Aldi (Kyrell brand) that has argan oil as the 3rd ingredient and has no silicones and it is as "heavy" as my HE HH. So it varies. You really have to find a product that suits you, silicones or no.

I totally agree. I think those types of ingredients are good in conditioner formulas, but for strictly "washing" hair and scalp, it is definitely not for me, that's what a good shampoo is for and what works best for my scalp also. I also agree that individual ingredients aren't going to tell you how the finished product will perform on your hair, or what the overall formula will be like. Lately I've been just judging finished products and not being too nit picky about individual ingredients, unless something has a lot of natural oils and butters in the product, which I know is too much for my hair type and I tend to avoid. But I think for people who are into Co-washing, those types or ingredients, minus heavier ingredients that can build up, are what to look for.

[mizukitty]

I totally agree. I think those types of ingredients are good in conditioner formulas, but for strictly "washing" hair and scalp, it is definitely not for me, that's what a good shampoo is for and what works best for my scalp also. I also agree that individual ingredients aren't going to tell you how the finished product will perform on your hair, or what the overall formula will be like. Lately I've been just judging finished products and not being too nit picky about individual ingredients, unless something has a lot of natural oils and butters in the product, which I know is too much for my hair type and I tend to avoid. But I think for people who are into Co-washing, those types or ingredients, minus heavier ingredients that can build up, are what to look for.

I agree with you! A single ingredient can't possibly tell you how an entire formulation performs on your hair, given all the variables there are - type of hair, thickness, how much sebum you produce, how much "dirt" accumulates on your hair, how often you wash it, what kind of water you have. That's why the YMMV thing is huge and it's for a good reason. Everyone raves about Vo5 conditioners for co washing, for example, but they really, really fail for me. No matter how much I use it leaves a residue, filmy and nasty and I can't rinse it off - the formulation would have you think otherwise!! Suave Clarifying, on the other hand, works absolute wonders - even though the ingredients are relatively similar!!

[renia22]

I agree with you! A single ingredient can't possibly tell you how an entire formulation performs on your hair, given all the variables there are - type of hair, thickness, how much sebum you produce, how much "dirt" accumulates on your hair, how often you wash it, what kind of water you have. That's why the YMMV thing is huge and it's for a good reason. Everyone raves about Vo5 conditioners for co washing, for example, but they really, really fail for me. No matter how much I use it leaves a residue, filmy and nasty and I can't rinse it off - the formulation would have you think otherwise!! Suave Clarifying, on the other hand, works absolute wonders - even though the ingredients are relatively similar!!


Eeek about Vo5! I don't know what happened to them, they used to be a nice brand. We had it all the time in my house growing up. The shampoo used to be rich and thick and amber-y in color, and it worked really well. Sometime around the early 2000s the quality of ingredients really started to change and go downhill. It now does the same yucky things to my hair as on yours. Unfortunately I can't use Suave either, but from my understand, both Suave and Vo5 conditioners are supposed to best for co-washing because they have the vey mild "cleansers", minus all of the other build up causing stuff. If they worked for me I would use them, unfortunately those brands do scary things to my hair :(

[cherrybird]

I have a really great hair mask with the first 5 ingredients as water, honey, olive oil, jojoba oil and aloe, but has cyclopentasiloxane and dimethicone pretty far down the list. I think its a really good balance of oils and humectants at the top of the list, and the dimethicone gives my hair a nice shiny finish.

animetor7 I would love to read a blog on silicones! The more info the better.

[Rebeccalaurenxx]

I would love more info on silicones @animetor7

I have been cone free for years, when I was back and fourth my hair was in terrible condition, my hair improved when I got rid of them and stopped going back and fourth.
Thought I would switch again now, since I clarified for the first time in years a few months ago, but after thinking about it I think I will not try them again. Makes me a little too nervous... why change something that does not need to change. I find good results without cones so I will stay without cones.
I cant remember a time when my hair felt nice and grew long and I was using silicones so I imagine they probably will never work for me.

[mermaid lullaby]

hmm...I went back to cones, but it is more the kind that can wash off easily. My hair gets too many tangles without them.