Crinkily hair?

[Sashawithlongru]

My hair is technically straight...except it's not. It's looks kind of 'crimped' (you know those old school crimper things?) When you look closely, the hairs are in uneven random scrunched looking patterns, as if they got untangled but stayed in that shape. Hard to explain, maybe I'll post a picture. They are always like this even after brushing in the shower, or out of a braid, they are never straight and uncrimped, just always have these awkward bends everywhere. I recently got a blunt cut, but now the hairs are all different lengths because they break off at the bends, sometimes really short. My hair use to be a matted mess because I didn't know how to take care of it, and it was so tangely it took two hours to brush and I didn't have the time everyday because I have two babies, but it's been manageable for a few weeks now that I've implemented the tips from this site, but they still have that pernament, just got untangled, and bent shape. I also suffer from hypothyroidism, so maybe that contributes? Should I just straight iron it? I don't have a straight iron, and my husband would be mad if I waste the money on that just to use it once. I feel like this causes tangles and makes my hair look a mess even if all tangles are out. What do I do about this? Should I just go get a cut and ask them to straight iron and hope my hair learns to be like that again? I dont want to get a cut because I'm growing my hair out and it all goes back to being all splits in a month anyway. I never submerge my hair because we have very hard water, but the shower head has a filter on it, so I only use that. Could that be part of the problem? I can try filling my tub with the shower head.

[lapushka]

Is your hair wavy or curly?

[Sashawithlongru]

No, it's straight. It's just all bent at weird angles, and then it breaks where the bends are. It also seems to have gotten thicker and coarser..around the same time this problem started. It use to be totally straight when I was a kid.

[lapushka]

No, it's straight. It's just all bent at weird angles, and then it breaks where the bends are. It also seems to have gotten thicker and coarser..around the same time this problem started. It use to be totally straight when I was a kid.

Hormones might still play a part.

Do you heat style? A little more info about your routine might help. :)

Normally we *all* of us have these weird hairs on our heads, they are among "normal" hairs and look different. Is all your hair like this? A picture might do wonders, because it's hard to imagine.

[gthlvrmx]

I too noticed most of my new hairs grew in "kinky", including my facial hair after I shaved to bald. My only guess was hormone change, maybe from the medications I am taking. These hairs, they twist on themselves individually and it looks like sometimes they are even thinner and thicker all on one strand of hair. I don't have thyroid issues though.

[Entangled]

I have this! My underlayer is like that. It's like I constantly wear tiny braids or something.

[Andthetalltrees]

My hair is mostly straight and I have this too! It makes my hair feel/look rather rough unfortunately. I use to think it was damage but I think I realize now it's just how half of my hair grows.

[Sashawithlongru]

Yes, all of my hair is like this. You might be right that it's hormones, I've just had two babies in a row and this problem started during my first pregnancy, also when my hypothyroidism started, and that effects hormones. My hair is just starting to grow back since starting hypothyroidism medication (I had a lot of hair loss) and the new growth looks normal. This makes me just want to shave my head and start over but my husband would kill me. What a frustrating disease. I will try to post a picture once I figure out how.

[Sashawithlongru]

Mine always forn a knot on one hair and break there. Great go hear I'm not alone and there is still hope for long hair. Anyone have any tips on how to manage such hair?

[Sashawithlongru]

I have this! My underlayer is like that. It's like I constantly wear tiny braids or something.

But your hair is so sleek and shiny in your signature photo, exactly what I want\use to have.

[animetor7]

Maybe if we had a picture we'd be able to help more. It's hard to tell what exactly you're talking about in terms of texture without one. In general, you could try wrapping your hair as it dries to straighten it more, there are many techniques for hair wrapping to straighten hair if you're going for a straighter look.

[Sashawithlongru]

Sorry, I can't figure out how to post a picture, I read the FAQ and it says to click the 'manage attachememts' button that I can't seem to find.

[Sashawithlongru]

Oh, sorry, for some reason it says I'm not allowed to post photos.

[animetor7]

Oh shoot, I forgot, you need a certain number of posts before you can post a picture. Can you post links? You could find a picture online that resembles what you're talking about and then give us a link to it.

[Larki]

I have certain strands that are like this, they look and feel crimped and rough, but the texture is drastically different from the rest of my hair.

[Sashawithlongru]

Ok, so I figured out go upload it online. It's hard to take pictures of hair it turns out, this is the best I could do. So, it was just brushed and then it just springs back into this. It's not wavy, it looks straight from far away...just full of fly away sticking out at random angles, as you can see all the hairs are different lengths now, even though I recently got a blunt cut, no layers.http://imgur.com/Sm6yNBw

[Sashawithlongru]

I have certain strands that are like this, they look and feel crimped and rough, but the texture is drastically different from the rest of my hair.

Yes, exactly, except all my hair is like this now. And it's just a horrible rough texture and seems to break with the slightest touch.

[Entangled]

But your hair is so sleek and shiny in your signature photo, exactly what I want\use to have.
I'm lucky enough that the top layer of my hair is smooth, but the lower half is a different story. I'll see if I can get a picture.

ETA:
I'm pretty sure this texture for me is hormonal, as it started around puberty. I'm happy my air is how it is, though--my underlayer is a lot courser than my canopy, so it's tougher and I can still have a decently smooth top layer (as long as I don't have frizz).

[Sashawithlongru]

The kinks are really small even though they look like large waves in the picture I posted.

[Sashawithlongru]

See how this person's hair seems rough with broken pieces sticking out everywhere, that are bent. This is what I'm talking about, up close it looks like a mess, but it's not just damage and breakage, it's got a rough texture and is just all bent out of shape. http://www.behairstyles.com/long-hair-community/long-hair-community-2/

[Sashawithlongru]

I'm lucky enough that the top layer of my hair is smooth, but the lower half is a different story. I'll see if I can get a picture.

ETA:
I'm pretty sure this texture for me is hormonal, as it started around puberty. I'm happy my air is how it is, though--my underlayer is a lot courser than my canopy, so it's tougher and I can still have a decently smooth top layer (as long as I don't have frizz).

Any tips on how to manage that hair? I mean keep it nice and not breaking and tangleing and all that?

[Entangled]

The kinks are really small even though they look like large waves in the picture I posted.


See how this person's hair seems rough with broken pieces sticking out everywhere, that are bent. This is what I'm talking about, up close it looks like a mess, but it's not just damage and breakage, it's got a rough texture and is just all bent out of shape. http://www.behairstyles.com/long-hair-community/long-hair-community-2/

Is your hair coarse? I can really feel a difference in my underlayer's texture compared to my canopy's. It might also be that you hair is wavy and the "broken" effect you describe is frizz.

I have both (my signature picture is fuzzy, in good lighting, and on a good winter hair day).

Here is a decent picture of what my underlayer looks like.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3007_zpsajxu9adk.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3007_zpsajxu9adk.jpg.html)

A single underlayer hair. It's hard to capture in a picture, but the light reflects very unevenly of these hairs, and the texture is sort of crunchy when I roll them between my fingers. They don't lay smooth, and don't have a discernible wave pattern.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3008_zpshwmlhfvt.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3008_zpshwmlhfvt.jpg.html)

Canopy:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3009_zpswxxtw6py.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3009_zpswxxtw6py.jpg.html)

For comparison (underlayer on left, canopy on right)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3010_zpswzzsgid8.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3010_zpswzzsgid8.jpg.html)


Now, all this is different from frizz. My top layer is smooth and lays together, but in humidity or after washing gets very frizzy. However, it doesn't have the crinkly texture of my underlayer and lies smoothly enough when dry, unlike my perpetually unruly underlayer.

Frizz picture for reference:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/3d4f913f-c625-4e1a-8ee6-efd71bcc692c_zpsssep4fh8.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/3d4f913f-c625-4e1a-8ee6-efd71bcc692c_zpsssep4fh8.jpg.html)

[Sashawithlongru]

Is your hair course? I can really feel a difference in my underlayer's texture compared to my canopy's. It might also be that you hair is wavy and the "broken" effect you describe is frizz.

I have both (my signature picture is fuzzy, in good lighting, and on a good winter hair day).

Here is a decent picture of what my underlayer looks like.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3007_zpsajxu9adk.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3007_zpsajxu9adk.jpg.html)

A single underlayer hair. It's hard to capture in a picture, but the light reflects very unevenly of these hairs, and the texture is sort of crunchy when I roll them between my fingers. They don't lay smooth, and don't have a discernible wave pattern.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3008_zpshwmlhfvt.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3008_zpshwmlhfvt.jpg.html)

Canopy:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3010_zpswzzsgid8.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3010_zpswzzsgid8.jpg.html)

For comparison (underlayer on left, canopy on right)
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3010_zpswzzsgid8.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_3010_zpswzzsgid8.jpg.html)


Now, all this is different from frizz. My top layer is smooth and lays together, but in humidity or after washing gets very frizzy. However, it doesn't have the crinkly texture of my underlayer and lies smoothly enough when dry, unlike my perpetually unruly underlayer.

For reference:
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d49/Tofallsofar/Mobile%20Uploads/3d4f913f-c625-4e1a-8ee6-efd71bcc692c_zpsssep4fh8.jpg (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Tofallsofar/media/Mobile%20Uploads/3d4f913f-c625-4e1a-8ee6-efd71bcc692c_zpsssep4fh8.jpg.html)

YES! This is what I have exactly exept it's my whole head! I don't know what to do to make it look nice and help the horrible texture. I'm just increasing how much conditioner I use and I'm trying joico k-pack hydrator. I guess the only thing I can do is fix my hormones? I don't know how to give it smoothness without maybe straight ironing it.

[Entangled]

YES! This is what I have exactly exept it's my whole head! I don't know what to do to make it look nice and help the horrible texture. I'm just increasing how much conditioner I use and I'm trying joico k-pack hydrator. I guess the only thing I can do is fix my hormones? I don't know how to give it smoothness without maybe straight ironing it.

I suspect part of it has to do with coarseness. From what I can tell, it's more difficult to get moisture to coarse hair, as it has an extra layer compared to fine or medium hairs. Oils often don't help as much. I will see what I can find for suggestions, though I admit that since nobody sees the bottom of my hair, I haven't done much to change it.

ETA:

I found these three threads:
Coarse hair support thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=128902)
Coarse hairs unite (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=83796)
Coarse hair care (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=45554)


Any tips on how to manage that hair? I mean keep it nice and not breaking and tangleing and all that?
So from what I can tell, moisture. (not necessarily oils, at least not on dry hair).

Alternatively, you may be wavier than you expect. (That's what my canopy frizz stems from.)
How do you handle your hair when it's wet? Do you comb through it or otherwise handle it wet?

If you do, try not touching it out of the shower. Better yet, get a hair typing picture. Clarify your hair using either a clarifying shampoo or just one with sulfates, condition as normal, and then don't touch it as it dries. That will help you find your texture. If your hair is wavy, you may be able to comb it straight when wet, but it will still frizz up, which can contribute to a "rough" texture.

If your hair is wavy, you might benefit from checking out the curly girl method or other methods for more textured hair, many of which center around moisture and limited handling. Good luck!

[missrandie]

Are you undergoing management for your hypothyroidism? You may be on the right track when you say hormones could be a contributing factor.

If you rebalance your hormones, the texture may begin growing in with your previous texture, or it may not.

In the meantime, entangled's suggestions on coarse hair might help.

[lapushka]

Oh, sorry, for some reason it says I'm not allowed to post photos.

You can post a picture if you host it at a photohosting site, then link it here. :flower:

[Anya15]

YES! This is what I have exactly exept it's my whole head! I don't know what to do to make it look nice and help the horrible texture. I'm just increasing how much conditioner I use and I'm trying joico k-pack hydrator. I guess the only thing I can do is fix my hormones? I don't know how to give it smoothness without maybe straight ironing it.

Alright, so you just have coarse wavy hair. My hair looks exactly like that if I try and comb/brush it into submission.

The problem is, most of us who have wavy hair don't realize that we have it, we treat it like straight hair and end up with a mess.

Wavy hair needs a decent amount of moisture. Try getting a moisturizing conditioner to use on your hair post-wash. Do not brush/comb too much, you can use a wide-toothed comb to detangle. The LOC method (link in Lapushka's signature) is also very popular with wavies.

Also, try posting a hairtyping photo for us. Wash your hair as you would normally, do not comb/brush it, and allow it to air-dry. You can post pictures if you upload them to an external site like imgur or photobucket. Then we can help you better :)

[lapushka]

Alright, so you just have coarse wavy hair. My hair looks exactly like that if I try and comb/brush it into submission.

The problem is, most of us who have wavy hair don't realize that we have it, we treat it like straight hair and end up with a mess.

Wavy hair needs a decent amount of moisture. Try getting a moisturizing conditioner to use on your hair post-wash. Do not brush/comb too much, you can use a wide-toothed comb to detangle. The LOC method (link in Lapushka's signature) is also very popular with wavies.

Also, try posting a hairtyping photo for us. Wash your hair as you would normally, do not comb/brush it, and allow it to air-dry. You can post pictures if you upload them to an external site like imgur or photobucket. Then we can help you better :)

Yep, I'm here with my link! :D ;)

[Sashawithlongru]

So I took a picture. It looks much softer then usual because I soaked it in aloe vera yesturday, then I washed it with nutrogena clarifying shampoo and conditioner it. You can still see that it is scraggly and dull, although much less rough now after the aloe vera.
http://m.imgur.com/DBKYr7g

[Sashawithlongru]

Alright, so you just have coarse wavy hair. My hair looks exactly like that if I try and comb/brush it into submission.

The problem is, most of us who have wavy hair don't realize that we have it, we treat it like straight hair and end up with a mess.

Wavy hair needs a decent amount of moisture. Try getting a moisturizing conditioner to use on your hair post-wash. Do not brush/comb too much, you can use a wide-toothed comb to detangle. The LOC method (link in Lapushka's signature) is also very popular with wavies.

Also, try posting a hairtyping photo for us. Wash your hair as you would normally, do not comb/brush it, and allow it to air-dry. You can post pictures if you upload them to an external site like imgur or photobucket. Then we can help you better :)

I posted a picture, and you are right I never realized it was wavy. Are you saying I shouldn't brush my hair? That sounds insane, it gets ectreamly tangley and would turn into dread locks.

[lapushka]

I posted a picture, and you are right I never realized it was wavy. Are you saying I shouldn't brush my hair? That sounds insane, it gets ectreamly tangley and would turn into dread locks.

I have 2b/c wavy hair. I finger detangle throughout the week. I only comb & brush on Sunday, right before a wash, detangle one more time post-wash (after it comes out of the towel) with a WT comb, then put the comb/brush away for the week. I never get dreadlocks. YMMV.

[Sashawithlongru]

Makes sence that would work if you use lots of moisture on your hair with the loc method. Don't you get build up? I get buildup just from conditioner, even after I got a showerhead filter. This is just one week of build up. I think it's the reason my hair doesn't dry, I mean I wash at night and it's still dry in the morning. https://imgur.com/gallery/Rtcvc

[Sashawithlongru]

Sorry, ment to say still damp. I can't edit yet.

[Sashawithlongru]

I have 2b/c wavy hair. I finger detangle throughout the week. I only comb & brush on Sunday, right before a wash, detangle one more time post-wash (after it comes out of the towel) with a WT comb, then put the comb/brush away for the week. I never get dreadlocks. YMMV.

What products do you use when you do loc?

[Entangled]

How often do you wash? What products are you using? If you wash frequently, you might get away with only detangling before a wash, but that may be harden if you don't wash frequently.

Long can be attracted by oils, and can be a major source of tangling, so you can experiment there. Have you clarified recently? That might help with the tangling.

[Anya15]

It is important to maintain a balance between the products and clarifying.

You will get zero/minimal tangles once you have this figured out, and the tangles that do appear can be finger combed out or at best, combed using a wide-toothed comb. As soon as your hair starts to feel icky, clarify.

For my hair, it needs moisture but too much and it gets limp and stringy. There are other wavies who need more moisture, so it will take a bit of experimenting until you figure it out.

[lapushka]

What products do you use when you do loc?

Try looking in the LOC/LCO thread (am I going nuts, I thought I had referred you there :lol:) for more info. The link is in my signature.

I currently use a curling cream (cur enhancing smoothie by SM) and a gel (depends) + serum (depends). You can always find my weekly routine in my blogs and there I state exactly what I use and how much I use.

[Obsidian]

That is a lot of build up, even in the just shampooed pic it looks really built up. I would clarify daily until you get rid of the build up and make sure you wash the length, not just the scalp. Give your hair a good scrub, just don't be too rough.

How often do you wash and do you usually use the neutrogena? Another thing it could be is mineral build up from hard water, clarifying shampoo won't remove this. You need a special chelating shampoo, often marketed as swimmers shampoo. Joico makes a good one https://www.amazon.com/Joico-K-Pak-Clarifying-Shampoo-Packaging/dp/B00F45E7SC it clarifies and chelates.

if your conditioner is making build up that fast, maybe you should try a different one. I personally really like herbal essence hello hydration. It gives a lot of slip and doesn't build up on my fine hair.

[Sashawithlongru]

It is important to maintain a balance between the products and clarifying.

You will get zero/minimal tangles once you have this figured out, and the tangles that do appear can be finger combed out or at best, combed using a wide-toothed comb. As soon as your hair starts to feel icky, clarify.

For my hair, it needs moisture but too much and it gets limp and stringy. There are other wavies who need more moisture, so it will take a bit of experimenting until you figure it out.

I just started using a leave-in, oil and aloe and you are right the tangles are dissaphearing! Yess, here I was ready for a pixie.

[Sashawithlongru]

How often do you wash? What products are you using? If you wash frequently, you might get away with only detangling before a wash, but that may be harden if you don't wash frequently.

Long can be attracted by oils, and can be a major source of tangling, so you can experiment there. Have you clarified recently? That might help with the tangling.

I use to only wash with water....nothing else, now I realize it's hard water and I wasn't giving my hair any moisture either...so, that's the problem

[Sashawithlongru]

Try looking in the LOC/LCO thread (am I going nuts, I thought I had referred you there :lol:) for more info. The link is in my signature.

I currently use a curling cream (cur enhancing smoothie by SM) and a gel (depends) + serum (depends). You can always find my weekly routine in my blogs and there I state exactly what I use and how much I use.

Sorry, I don't have access to articles and blogs yet...I see, I just wanted a quick suggestion untill I found time to read that whole thread. Thanks :)

[Sashawithlongru]

That is a lot of build up, even in the just shampooed pic it looks really built up. I would clarify daily until you get rid of the build up and make sure you wash the length, not just the scalp. Give your hair a good scrub, just don't be too rough.

How often do you wash and do you usually use the neutrogena? Another thing it could be is mineral build up from hard water, clarifying shampoo won't remove this. You need a special chelating shampoo, often marketed as swimmers shampoo. Joico makes a good one https://www.amazon.com/Joico-K-Pak-Clarifying-Shampoo-Packaging/dp/B00F45E7SC it clarifies and chelates.

if your conditioner is making build up that fast, maybe you should try a different one. I personally really like herbal essence hello hydration. It gives a lot of slip and doesn't build up on my fine hair.

I have been washing my hair with hard water for three years now, not realizing what it was doing. I did not see the chealting shampoo in the joico section at my grocery store..I will take a look at shoppers drugmart (Canada), and look for a swimmers shampoo of they don't have the joico one either. Thank you!!! You guys have been so helpful.

I'm using up a crappy shampoo and conditioner my mom bought me, and trying to deside if I should go with the whole joico line next or try living proof PhD, the pictures on thier website look impressive.

[01]

You could try heavy oiling (and bun your hair to protect clothing) before wash and combing them out straight and shampoo-only wash, without conditioner. Air dry your hair loose. I can get either stick straight or slight body wave this way, and my hair are actually curly so I guess it should work even better for person with straight hair!

You could also try wrapping. I don't have any experience with that, but from what I understand it's like wet setting curls but you wet set your hair straight instead?...

If you go with oil 'straightening' instead of flat iron your hair will get stronger and healthier instead of damaged like they would with heat. Good luck. I have a couple of 'kinky' strands, but not whole head! I wonder why you have so many of them, are you ill? Hope you'll figure it out *hugs*.

[lapushka]

Sorry, I don't have access to articles and blogs yet...I see, I just wanted a quick suggestion untill I found time to read that whole thread. Thanks :)

Oh sorry! :o I didn't realize.

I use a coinsize amount of the curl enhancing smoothie (on classic length) -> you need the tiniest bit. Currently using the gel from Lidl (women's as well as men's version, both equally nice), coinsize of that. And then a serum (also coinsize amount) that is either from Aldi or our Action store. I am from Belgium, so we have different products. :D

[spitfire511]

Hey Sasha - I haven't been on in FOREVER and happened to jump in here today and saw this.

I have sections of my hair that twist this way, and hairstylists have always been a bit confounded by it. It's similar to 'pilli torti' in the way that it twists and the way that it wants to break, but it isn't 'catastrophic' for growing my hair - it just requires some extra care.

I've discovered that I think it's all due to a long bout of anorexia in my teenage years. BUT - I've also discovered that properly moisturized, I do have wavier hair than I would have credited - the LOC method works wonders - and realizing this and learning to work with the wave and stay away from the heat makes a HUGE difference! Good luck with your chelating shampoo and road to figuring out how to work best with your locks!

[01]

Reading through this thread gives me answers to my own questions about tangles... Come to think of it, I always have easily combable hair right after egg yolk wash (it's very stripping for me). But too much and they get worse, from the dryness. So I like how anou talks about finding balance. Haven't really found it yet either. Are you water only? Join us in WO thread.

[Chromis]

Those small screw on shower filters don't do anything for water hardness (also they don't do much of anything for long unless the filters are changed frequently).

I found with our hard water I need to do an acidic rinse no matter what washing method I used. I recommend a mixture of apple cider vinegar and citric acid (Bulk Barn and other places carry this and I have the best luck with buying ACV from the hippie health food stores or the farmer's market). It won't change the texture of your hair, but it will help with that super coated tangly feeling. Mine is only barely wavy and if I skipped the rinse, I can't even get my fingers through it without breakage and snarls.

[Sashawithlongru]

I've discovered that I think it's all due to a long bout of anorexia in my teenage years.

Yes, I'm sure my texture problems can be from anorexia a few years back, after that being vegan while pregnant and developing deficiencies, and then hypothyroidism, which my naturopath says can be triggered by nutriant deficiencies. If only I knew at the time that my obsessive compultions about my apearence would only end up worsening it.

[Sashawithlongru]

So I finally found the chelating shampoo after checking 5 places, and what a difference! My hair is smooth and shiny, I can get my fingers through it easily and take out any tangles, it looks fuller and straighter and not so kinky at all any more. I also used the joico hydrator and think I'm going to get the whole product line now. Thank you for the tip about an acid wash, I've tried rinsing with ACV before with not much effect, I should try adding citic acid to it.

[Larki]

A side by side comparison of my "crinkly" hair and my normal hair.

http://i64.tinypic.com/25kr41v.jpg