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chutt
October 26th, 2016, 10:31 AM
Hi all!

Newbie here in need of some help. My hair type is 1c/F/i/lenghth just above shoulder. Have been dying blonde highlights for 20 years and had no problems until I moved country Last 6 years have gradually lost about 1/3 of the volume of my hair. I think it is a combination of brittleness, making it snap, however I have had a lot of loss from the root too. It used to be shiny and would get down past my shoulders but now it's very hard to do and is a stringy mess - even colour at the virgin hair at the roots only lasts a few weeks and my ash blonde colour becomes brassy very quickly. In the past it would only need a top up every 4 months or so, but now it seems to look dull after 6 weeks.

Have checked with doctor and made sure diet is good, in terms or iron etc, and it is. I am from an area with soft water and when I visit home my hair feels amazing, so I looked into the hard water levels of the city and in my district and they are:



Free chlorine
0.17
mg / l


Chloride
20
mg / l


Iron
25
ug / l


Manganese
<5
ug / l


nitrate
9
mg / l


Nitrite
<.02
mg / l


ammonium
<0.05
mg / l


total hardness
142
mg / l CaO


conductivity
473
S / cm


pH
7.5




I am in Budapest, Hungary, which is well known for the mineral properties in the water. Needless to say I would love to fix this. I am assuming this is to do with the hard water as a couple of other expats have commented on their hair recently.

I have started rinsing my hair with Evian after washing, and rinse out my hair with ACV twice a week. I am thinking to go for weekly protein treatments to the hairdresser too and maybe getting an all over colour to a darker ash brown until it looks better. It feels a bit nicer.



Could anybody please recommend and products I could leave in during the day?

Many thanks for any suggestions!

Kajzh
October 26th, 2016, 01:14 PM
My #1 suggestion is to avoid all anionic surfactants. Avoid soaps and sulfates, because they chemically react with tap water minerals to create soap scum buildup and discoloration. Consider rinsing with an acid after each wash. Also invest in an ion exchange water filter ... filters without salt won't be super helpful in this case.

I hope this helps! My water at home is so hard and mineral-rich that it comes out of the faucet BLACK in color. So I've done a lot of experimenting to figure out how to survive it!

meteor
October 26th, 2016, 05:51 PM
You might need a chelating treatment or a chelating shampoo (sometimes marketed as "swimmers" shampoo). The product may need to be left in hair for some time and/or used more than once to shift really heavy mineral build-up.
Some popular examples include Malibu C, Joico Clarify, Redken Cleansing Cream and Redken Pre Art, Pantene Damage Detox, Kenra Clarifying, citric acid rinses, etc...
I'd actually ask around locally what people who moved there use to bring hair back to how it felt before, because mineral composition of hard water in different locations is different.
You can also wash hair with distilled water, if it's not too bothersome. Or search the forums for "Miracle Water" recipe, it helped some folks quite a bit.

Larki
October 26th, 2016, 07:01 PM
I'm going to second the shower filter suggestion. I had hard water in college and a filter wasn't an option, so I used a hard water shampoo from Malibu C along with their hard water treatments.

Kajzh
October 26th, 2016, 07:10 PM
I'm going to second the shower filter suggestion. I had hard water in college and a filter wasn't an option, so I used a hard water shampoo from Malibu C along with their hard water treatments.

I still use Malibu-C, even though I've moved to a location with much better water quality. I love it!

animetor7
October 27th, 2016, 12:25 AM
I agree with the suggestion for chelating and clarifying more frequently. Hard water by itself doesn't cause damage, but the build-up it causes can. So as long as you remove that build-up frequently enough you should be fine. If you feel like it's necessary, a water filter can also help. Good luck!!! :)

Sarahlabyrinth
October 27th, 2016, 08:47 PM
We have hard water too, I do a diluted vinegar rinse with every wash, that does seem to help. Plus I clarify once a month or so.

lapushka
October 28th, 2016, 05:03 AM
I agree with the suggestion for chelating and clarifying more frequently. Hard water by itself doesn't cause damage, but the build-up it causes can. So as long as you remove that build-up frequently enough you should be fine. If you feel like it's necessary, a water filter can also help. Good luck!!! :)

Yes, this, otherwise my entire head of hair would be one damaged mess. And it ain't that. It's wild, but damaged? No. I don't chelate at all. Clarify, sometimes, though rarely, yes. Otherwise I wash with a good harsh sulfate shampoo (SD, seborrheic dermatitis). Seems to be OK.

If your hair is getting damaged; it has to be a different reason, either externally or internally.

Do you heat style, at all? Color might be fine, but bleach? Not so much. Bleach needs protein. Color sometimes too.

Wildcat Diva
October 28th, 2016, 09:46 AM
I'm certain that my hard water contributes to damage, because of extreme tangles that I don't have when I visit else where.

lapushka
October 28th, 2016, 10:32 AM
I'm certain that my hard water contributes to damage, because of extreme tangles that I don't have when I visit else where.

Soft water conditions more, that's a given, but hard water does not *damage*. :)

Pacific
October 28th, 2016, 01:18 PM
I agree, I live for more than 20 years in areas with very hard water and it didn't damage.

Kajzh
October 28th, 2016, 02:49 PM
My hard water damaged my hair. But like I said, it came out of my faucet BLACK in color. It ruined my laundry. It etched my dishes. It changed my hair color and would leave awful buildup, even with WO-washing. It made my hair brittle and it had no elasticity. I would have to drive an hour out of town to get it chelated and clarified, because I was literally incapable of successfully doing it at home.

I know my case is very extreme. But I wanted to let you know that it's possible.

Kaya
October 28th, 2016, 03:12 PM
:horse: I've said it before and I'll say it yet again: when it comes to hard water, it can depend on what your hair is used to. I very much resent that people seem to think that water hardness doesn't matter.

All those people who have no issue with hard water have either grown up with it or lived with it for an considerable period of time. Their hair is used to and adapted to it. Great for them. However, not everyone is in their position.

If you are not used to hard water, i.e., moved from an area with soft/normal water to a hard water area, the effects can be very noticeable. If hard water doesn't damage as claimed above, I'd like to know what the hell happened to my hair when we moved from the USA to England. I lost a decent amount off my hemline due to not understanding that the hard water here was wreaking chaos on my hair. And my hair was doing fabulous in the States! It was not a case of delayed breakage due to past damage.

I can agree that hard water buildup can certainly damage hair. There's gotta be something detrimental to hair when you have to clean crusted limescale regularly out of fixtures, showers, toilets and appliances. In that case, yes, hard water should be considered damaging, to whatever is washed in it, including hair.

Yes, there are ways of combating it for sure. I use a shower filter, chelate regularly, and maintain a daily oiling habit to help stave off the effects of the hard water.

So yes, I believe hard water is damaging, in that the build up can be very harsh on hair. It's simply a matter of finding out what one needs to do to balance out the hardness and keep one's hair happy.

animetor7
October 28th, 2016, 03:50 PM
Kaya I'm sorry, but hair is dead, it can't "get used to" anything. Your scalp can adjust, your skin can adjust, you can adjust. But hair once it has grown out of its follicle is dead. And unless the water is literally coming out of your faucet black, one wash is not going to damage it and you can use products at home to chelate and clarify. Buildup from not addressing hard water can certainly cause damage, but it is like any other buildup, it causes damage if you never deal with it. If you clarify and chelate with enough regularity, you won't get horrible buildup, and you won't get damage. For example, my grandmother uses well water that is very hard and comes out of the tap orange. When I stay with her over the Summer I use a chelating shampoo with every wash because it is necessary to get rid damaging buildup. But this is not the water damaging my hair, it isn't going to hurt my hair to rinse with her water. It's going to hurt my hair to allow the buildup to accumulate which will prevent moisture from penetrating, and can increase tangles. So I just clarify and chelate more. And as you've mentioned water hardness does matter, but it isn't the water that's hurting your hair, it's not dealing with buildup appropriately. The same problems can happen from using a coney conditioner or serum and never clarifying. BUILDUP causes damage if not addressed appropriately, NOT water.

I'm sorry if this is harsh, but it seems that there is a common misunderstanding about hard water on this forum and what it means vs what it doesn't mean. And I get frustrated by the spreading of pseudoscience, or advice given based on feelings rather than evidence. This is misleading and can be harmful when people follow genuinely given, but inaccurate advice.

lapushka
October 28th, 2016, 05:08 PM
Kaya I'm sorry, but hair is dead, it can't "get used to" anything. Your scalp can adjust, your skin can adjust, you can adjust. But hair once it has grown out of its follicle is dead. And unless the water is literally coming out of your faucet black, one wash is not going to damage it and you can use products at home to chelate and clarify. Buildup from not addressing hard water can certainly cause damage, but it is like any other buildup, it causes damage if you never deal with it. If you clarify and chelate with enough regularity, you won't get horrible buildup, and you won't get damage. For example, my grandmother uses well water that is very hard and comes out of the tap orange. When I stay with her over the Summer I use a chelating shampoo with every wash because it is necessary to get rid damaging buildup. But this is not the water damaging my hair, it isn't going to hurt my hair to rinse with her water. It's going to hurt my hair to allow the buildup to accumulate which will prevent moisture from penetrating, and can increase tangles. So I just clarify and chelate more. And as you've mentioned water hardness does matter, but it isn't the water that's hurting your hair, it's not dealing with buildup appropriately. The same problems can happen from using a coney conditioner or serum and never clarifying. BUILDUP causes damage if not addressed appropriately, NOT water.

I'm sorry if this is harsh, but it seems that there is a common misunderstanding about hard water on this forum and what it means vs what it doesn't mean. And I get frustrated by the spreading of pseudoscience, or advice given based on feelings rather than evidence. This is misleading and can be harmful when people follow genuinely given, but inaccurate advice.

Totally agree that it's all in how *you* deal with the water, not the water itself. Yes, I get tangly hair, but I use conditioner for that (two in a row even). That's how I deal with it.

mish9101
October 28th, 2016, 07:09 PM
have you thought about using Malibu C crystal gels?

Wildcat Diva
October 28th, 2016, 07:34 PM
Well, I use contitioner, two in a row and it doesn't really do jack when my hair is dry. Tangles. Those have to be dealt with, and dealing with these does cause damage, even if you are gentle.

I almost cried in the hotel in Dallas because the water was soft. I feel like if this was the case all the time, my hair would be so much nicer. I would be able to take care of it better.

littlestarface
October 28th, 2016, 08:00 PM
Kaya I'm sorry, but hair is dead, it can't "get used to" anything. Your scalp can adjust, your skin can adjust, you can adjust. But hair once it has grown out of its follicle is dead. And unless the water is literally coming out of your faucet black, one wash is not going to damage it and you can use products at home to chelate and clarify. Buildup from not addressing hard water can certainly cause damage, but it is like any other buildup, it causes damage if you never deal with it. If you clarify and chelate with enough regularity, you won't get horrible buildup, and you won't get damage. For example, my grandmother uses well water that is very hard and comes out of the tap orange. When I stay with her over the Summer I use a chelating shampoo with every wash because it is necessary to get rid damaging buildup. But this is not the water damaging my hair, it isn't going to hurt my hair to rinse with her water. It's going to hurt my hair to allow the buildup to accumulate which will prevent moisture from penetrating, and can increase tangles. So I just clarify and chelate more. And as you've mentioned water hardness does matter, but it isn't the water that's hurting your hair, it's not dealing with buildup appropriately. The same problems can happen from using a coney conditioner or serum and never clarifying. BUILDUP causes damage if not addressed appropriately, NOT water.

I'm sorry if this is harsh, but it seems that there is a common misunderstanding about hard water on this forum and what it means vs what it doesn't mean. And I get frustrated by the spreading of pseudoscience, or advice given based on feelings rather than evidence. This is misleading and can be harmful when people follow genuinely given, but inaccurate advice.

My water is orange too and it stinks and tastes disgusting!

we have very hard water lots of iron arsenic sodium sulfur lots of crap I don't want so I have to chelate alot or else my hair gets weighed down and feels grimey yuck by that crap water, imagine what you see it doing to your sink and fixtures, tubs and toilets yucky I don't want that in my hair I wish I could use distilled water every wash. I haven't chelated in a while tho and I should've did it this wash, I'll do next time. I grew up with this water all my life and after I chelated for the first time I could finally see what kind of hair I actually have, it's nice wavy with some wurl. I have to watch out cuz I could get addicted to chelating.

Wildcat Diva
October 28th, 2016, 08:26 PM
I feel like all that build up does cause damage because you can't chelate every wash... that in itself would be harsh. And I don't want to wash as often as I would like to because every wash gets me closer to build up city. So I suffer with dry ends that break and spilt. And I DO do LOC.

Maybe I'll moisten with dunking my ends in distilled water twice a week.

When I use miracle water mix, the water itself gives slip as opposed to normal. That's saying something. Not having slip and dealing with tangles ALL the time WILL result in damage over the course of time as you try to deal.. How can it not...

littlestarface
October 28th, 2016, 08:30 PM
I feel like all that build up does cause damage because you can't chelate every wash... that in itself would be harsh. And I don't want to wash as often as I would like to because every wash gets me closer to build up city. So I suffer with dry ends that break and spilt. And I DO do LOC.

Maybe I'll moisten with dunking my ends in distilled water twice a week.

When I use miracle water mix, the water itself gives slip as opposed to normal. That's saying something. Not having slip and dealing with tangles ALL the time WILL result in damage over the course of time as you try to deal.. How can it not...

Yea definitely would cause damage cuz hard water is just nasty probably leaving a nasty layer of filth all in our strands yuck.

Wildcat Diva
October 28th, 2016, 08:34 PM
Kaya I'm sorry, but hair is dead, it can't "get used to" anything. Your scalp can adjust, your skin can adjust, you can adjust. But hair once it has grown out of its follicle is dead. And unless the water is literally coming out of your faucet black, one wash is not going to damage it and you can use products at home to chelate and clarify. Buildup from not addressing hard water can certainly cause damage, but it is like any other buildup, it causes damage if you never deal with it. If you clarify and chelate with enough regularity, you won't get horrible buildup, and you won't get damage. For example, my grandmother uses well water that is very hard and comes out of the tap orange. When I stay with her over the Summer I use a chelating shampoo with every wash because it is necessary to get rid damaging buildup. But this is not the water damaging my hair, it isn't going to hurt my hair to rinse with her water. It's going to hurt my hair to allow the buildup to accumulate which will prevent moisture from penetrating, and can increase tangles. So I just clarify and chelate more. And as you've mentioned water hardness does matter, but it isn't the water that's hurting your hair, it's not dealing with buildup appropriately. The same problems can happen from using a coney conditioner or serum and never clarifying. BUILDUP causes damage if not addressed appropriately, NOT water.

I'm sorry if this is harsh, but it seems that there is a common misunderstanding about hard water on this forum and what it means vs what it doesn't mean. And I get frustrated by the spreading of pseudoscience, or advice given based on feelings rather than evidence. This is misleading and can be harmful when people follow genuinely given, but inaccurate advice.

When I say "hard water" I mean to include the minerals that affect my hair immediately. As I am actually using the chelating shampoo. These minerals build up faster than they can be chelated out. Using a chleating shampoo can be harsh on hair, stripping it. I can't take chelating every shampoo, it's too harsh. And not chelating is harsh too, with the minerals. Either and both of these conditions, the minerals and the chleating stress my hair. It is either devoid of proper natural oils or coated with minerals or some combination of the two. Having to detangle through any of this causes damage. Having hard water is a damage-causing condition for me.

Kaya
October 29th, 2016, 04:24 AM
When I say "hard water" I mean to include the minerals that affect my hair immediately. As I am actually using the chelating shampoo. These minerals build up faster than they can be chelated out. Using a chleating shampoo can be harsh on hair, stripping it. I can't take chelating every shampoo, it's too harsh. And not chelating is harsh too, with the minerals. Either and both of these conditions, the minerals and the chleating stress my hair. It is either devoid of proper natural oils or coated with minerals or some combination of the two. Having to detangle through any of this causes damage. Having hard water is a damage-causing condition for me.

Regarding the bolded sentence: this!!

Perhaps I assume that when people refer to hard water here, they are referring to the mineral content and the resulting effects on hair. I get that water itself isn't damaging. I definitely don't misunderstand that and saying hard water damage is not intended to mean that the water is damaging.

Yes for some people, 'hard water', as in the high mineral content, can be very damaging, especially if they don't realize it, or aren't used to it. I'm sure there are people here who have grown up with it who don't have to take any special measures to ensure that they don't have any noticeable issues. Probably because their hair can withstand it to a certain extent or the knowledge of the necessary countermeasures is second nature to them. But for others, it's not, or perhaps they can't acquire the needed products to combat the issue, due to location, lack of money, or lack of availability. Plus, what works for one person won't necessarily work for another.

For me, and evidently others, hard water causes damage to hair, unless I take certain steps. But I can't overdo certain steps either, because that can cause damage as well. It's all very individual about what damages hair and how people deal with it is likewise individual.

Wildcat Diva
October 29th, 2016, 09:06 AM
I suspect that my hair would be much nicer if I lived elsewhere, where the water was less hard...

Kaya
October 29th, 2016, 09:22 AM
I suspect that my hair would be much nicer if I lived elsewhere, where the water was less hard...

Ditto! My hair would love it if we lived somewhere with softer water after the UK. We went on holiday in Ireland a week or so ago and I was washing my hair in pure mountain spring water. It. Was. Heavenly!!! :cloud9: My hair was so happy! :D Even last year, we visited Germany and experienced softer water. My hair was noticeably nicer and more manageable.

Wildcat Diva
October 29th, 2016, 10:55 AM
The haircut I had right before I joined LHC was, I suspect, due to mineral buildup that I didn't understand. Chleating is fine for shorter hair and would have solved my dilemma easily. But chelating weekly for the same hair of extreme lengths, year after year, and struggling to detangle the minerals that coat your hair anyway, despite your efforts... yeah, it's gonna be damaged.

animetor7
October 29th, 2016, 11:04 AM
The thing about chelating is that it can be as gentle as a dilute vinegar rinse. I do this every week and have for years because I live with hard water, and I've never experienced damage from it. Sure, it won't take care of everything perfectly, but that's what a monthly stronger chelating agent is for. And it doesn't have to be harsh to get rid of mineral buildup, just the right pH, which is around 4.5-5.5, coincidentally right near where our hair, skin and scalp naturally sit at. So it won't damage your hair. This is because the reason you get mineral build-up in hard water is that it's slightly alkaline. All of those minerals readily dissolve and can be rinsed out with a mildly acidic solution. As for detangling, my hair gets tangly too, that's why I use a coney conditioner and a coney serum. If I tried to detangle without those, then sure I might cause damage, but I don't. And I don't expect my hair to be easy to detangle without them. If I were cone free, there are options in terms of richer conditioners or oils that would work too, cones are just easier. So all you need is vinegar, or any other acid of your choosing, and then dilute it with water, yes even your tap water, the acid in the vinegar will combat it's hardness and mineral content and it's fine to use on your hair. And I don't believe that no one has access to any sort of acid, I use white vinegar which is widely available across the US and all westernized countries and is dirt cheap. A gallon jug costs me $5 and can last up to 6 months. I reiterate, unless the water is literally coming out of your tap black. It's not going to build up quickly enough if you're using a vinegar rinse or other appropriate but gentle chelating agents, to cause damage. And I mean black, I've used orange mineral water from wells before and the vinegar rinsing still worked, and most places don't have water even that hard.

littlestarface
October 29th, 2016, 12:41 PM
I dunno I mean I tried using vinegar it did absolutely nothing for me my hair felt worst. I wish I could live in ireland tho!

Arete
October 29th, 2016, 02:44 PM
My water is so hard I have to chelate at least once a month (sometimes two) and that's with only washing my hair once a week. The build-up does dry out my hair and make it more prone to tangles and can dull the shine if its allowed to build up for long enough. So while the hard water *itself* does not directly damage the hair, the build up can definitely wreck havoc for hair.
I CWCC first two conditions are with silicone free, last with silcones for slip. Then after that I put a nickel sized drop of silicone free conditioner, wet it slightly, then run that through my hair as a leave in. This seems to manage things well. If my hair seems dry I will also preoil the night before washing with safflower or olive oil

Wildcat Diva
October 29th, 2016, 02:45 PM
I mean I am sure I can do better. I can use citric acid more regularly and chelate more often. I use Hello Hydration and KCKT. I can also make up miracle water too. I just get tired and wish I didn't have to worry about this so much, but clearly I do and need to get over it. I know it's true, I just get discouraged.

missrandie
October 29th, 2016, 02:59 PM
WD, it's a discouraging situation. I feel for you; water in your neck of the woods might as well be dissolved rock.

I'm very tempted to get a shower filter for this reason. The water down here is so hard! I blame the excess of limestone.

I personally keep a quart/liter of citric acid rinse in the shower at all times to combat the nasties in my water, though I think I'd be happier with a 5 gallon jug and a dispenser in the bathroom with pre-mixed rinse. Easier that way. Lol.

animetor7
October 29th, 2016, 03:00 PM
I mean I am sure I can do better. I can use citric acid more regularly and chelate more often. I use Hello Hydration and KCKT. I can also make up miracle water too. I just get tired and wish I didn't have to worry about this so much, but clearly I do and need to get over it. I know it's true, I just get discouraged.

It is harder to deal with hard water, but it's definitely possible. You just have to figure out a routine that will deal with the buildup appropriately. I just get frustrated when it's talked about as though it's impossible to have nice hair in a hard water area. It, is, you just need to combat the minerals and alkalinity associated with hard water. At least there is a solution though!!! I wish you the best in finding a routine that works. And citric acid works wonderfully as a chelating agent all by itself, it won't clarify to get rid of silicones, but if you're only worried about minerals, it will take care of them beautifully!! :) :flower:

Wildcat Diva
October 29th, 2016, 05:04 PM
Ehhhhh. I've used citric acid without much difference noted. Honestly, it's not supposed to be this difficult.

I can "do better" but after four years of experimenting... shouldn't a solution be evident by now?


I mean, it's not like I started dealing with this yesterday... I've been experimenting for years with little results and realizing that the efforts to affect this are not really going to make THAT much of a difference when weighted against the effort to keep up with this?

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=128756

lapushka
October 29th, 2016, 05:29 PM
I feel like all that build up does cause damage because you can't chelate every wash... that in itself would be harsh. And I don't want to wash as often as I would like to because every wash gets me closer to build up city. So I suffer with dry ends that break and spilt. And I DO do LOC.

Maybe I'll moisten with dunking my ends in distilled water twice a week.

When I use miracle water mix, the water itself gives slip as opposed to normal. That's saying something. Not having slip and dealing with tangles ALL the time WILL result in damage over the course of time as you try to deal.. How can it not...

Have you ever tried an ACV rinse before your conditioners, to soften it all up a bit? Just wondering. :)

Wildcat Diva
October 29th, 2016, 05:42 PM
I've used ACV at the end... I don't notice any difference really.

meteor
October 29th, 2016, 06:13 PM
^ Wildcat Diva, have you tried ascorbic acid (Vit. C powder) with water and a bit of citric acid added as soaks/rinses? :) Kind of like that "miracle water"? (Ascorbic acid is what's used in Malibu C (Hard Water Weekly Demineralizer Packets ingredients (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71hQHmfHNFL._SX522_.jpg)).)
Distilled water used instead of tap water (after initial chelating session) is fine too, but could be quite fussy to use, of course.

Personally, I definitely experienced more brittle and tangle-prone hair when I travelled to areas with very hard water and then suddenly luscious hair without even conditioning it in soft water areas, so I experienced how mineral content can impact the way hair feels and behaves during detangling/styling, not to mention how much it can impact the color on very light hair (blonde swimmers probably can share some stories about hair going green from copper in chlorinated water or brassy from iron). In those serious cases, heavy duty chelating treatments (allow them to sit in hair for a while), like Redken Pre-Art or Malibu C, are probably the way to go...

I've shared a few links and excerpts from studies on water hardness over at the Hair Science Thread:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=136845&page=18&p=3202649&viewfull=1#post3202649
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=136845&page=19&p=3202650&viewfull=1#post3202650

Some stuff that I found particularly interesting:

From The uptake of water hardness metals by human hair: http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2011/cc062n04/p00383-p00392.pdf
Summary: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21982353

"Upon treatment with alkaline hydrogen peroxide products, peptide and disulfide bonds inside the hair and 18-methyleicosanoic acid (18-MEA) on the hairís surface are cleaved. This exposes anionic carboxylate and sulfonate (of cysteic acid) groups, which render the hair an ideal cation exchange resin. It should be noted that the calcium and magnesium levels of the highly damaged hair are comparable to the levels found in the hair of consumers who regularly use oxidative colorant products." (p. 386)

The harder the water, the more minerals bonded with all hair - but in the same pattern - more damaged hair takes up more mineral cations.
The higher the pH of your water, the more minerals will bind to your hair from hard water. In pH 7 ("neutral") water, both bleached and unbleached hair took up lesser amounts of mineral cations than in pH 8 and pH 9 water (see Figure 3 on p. 389 of the study for details). As the pH of water goes up, the amount of minerals that will bind to hair (or penetrate hair) goes up too, but more significantly for already damaged hair.

Wildcat Diva
October 29th, 2016, 08:39 PM
I have tried miracle water, but it's difficult when your hair/scalp needs the water pressure coming from the tap to get clean.


I can always research more. Thanks for the links.

You know, maybe my last four inches of hair are not the most pristine to begin with. When I chelate it and strip off the silicones, it's evident when chelating how rough and tangly it is (at tailbone length). It is pre-LHC hair, those ends. No dyes, but it has been straightened a few times years ago, those ends. I think that hair type can have a lot to do with how hair holds up, as well. Curly hair, fine-ish hair., may not hold up to all this bonding of minerals and then stripping them off, and trying to detangle so well...

Flipgirl24
October 30th, 2016, 12:52 AM
Would it be possible to get a water softener? Or do you not have control of that?

lapushka
October 30th, 2016, 04:45 AM
I've used ACV at the end... I don't notice any difference really.

Ugh, that's a bummer. :(

lapushka
October 30th, 2016, 04:47 AM
Now I'm curious. Maybe it's your conditioner not being nourishing enough, WD? What conditioner do you use? I know I have to throw the conditioner at it (quite a bit yeah), so... maybe it's that?

Annalouise
October 30th, 2016, 11:14 AM
I dunno I mean I tried using vinegar it did absolutely nothing for me my hair felt worst. I wish I could live in ireland tho!

Same here, vinegar does nothing for my hair but dry it out.

Regarding hard water, I'm a bit confused because commercial shampoo's and conditioners are formulated to work in hard water because *most people have hard water. I would understand why people would have a problem using soap on their hair, but I don't understand why your shampoo is not taking care of it?

To the Original Poster ~ If you have fine hair and you are repeatedly dying it then I wouldn't expect it would get very long. Sorry. But you have to be realistic if you have fine hair. It is much more delicate and chemical dyes are not going to help your hair. They only damage it.

Wildcat Diva
October 30th, 2016, 11:24 AM
The shampoo may "work" as far as forming a lather, but this does not mean it is de-scaling the minerals off the hair they have bonded to.

littlestarface
October 30th, 2016, 12:23 PM
Same here, vinegar does nothing for my hair but dry it out.

Regarding hard water, I'm a bit confused because commercial shampoo's and conditioners are formulated to work in hard water because *most people have hard water. I would understand why people would have a problem using soap on their hair, but I don't understand why your shampoo is not taking care of it?

To the Original Poster ~ If you have fine hair and you are repeatedly dying it then I wouldn't expect it would get very long. Sorry. But you have to be realistic if you have fine hair. It is much more delicate and chemical dyes are not going to help your hair. They only damage it.

Me too, it makes my ends look even more peicey and dry when they're not at all.

Well they only lather well in hard water but shampoos are made just to remove oils/products they are not strong enough to remove minerals.

Llama
October 30th, 2016, 01:30 PM
We have hard water too, I do a diluted vinegar rinse with every wash, that does seem to help. Plus I clarify once a month or so.

Do you use acv or white vinegar?

Annalouise
October 30th, 2016, 05:05 PM
The shampoo may "work" as far as forming a lather, but this does not mean it is de-scaling the minerals off the hair they have bonded to.


Me too, it makes my ends look even more peicey and dry when they're not at all.

Well they only lather well in hard water but shampoos are made just to remove oils/products they are not strong enough to remove minerals.

Well I did not know that! :D Are you serious?? What does that mean? Do those of us with hard water have to "chelate" our hair a few times a year? I had NO IDEA! :?

littlestarface
October 30th, 2016, 05:16 PM
Well I did not know that! :D Are you serious?? What does that mean? Do those of us with hard water have to "chelate" our hair a few times a year? I had NO IDEA! :?

Yea we have to chelate or else our hair is gonna be full of that crap that comes out of our sinks but anyway its always there cuz we gotta rinse in it and use it all the time. Our hair is doomed to be like our sinks and fixtures unless we all move to ireland and bathe in spring water haha

Annalouise
October 30th, 2016, 05:23 PM
Yea we have to chelate or else our hair is gonna be full of that crap that comes out of our sinks but anyway its always there cuz we gotta rinse in it and use it all the time. Our hair is doomed to be like our sinks and fixtures unless we all move to ireland and bathe in spring water haha

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle! I have never chelated my hair before and we have hard water!! I guess I know what my next hair project is.:bigeyes:

lapushka
October 30th, 2016, 05:33 PM
Well I'll be a monkey's uncle! I have never chelated my hair before and we have hard water!! I guess I know what my next hair project is.:bigeyes:

OMG. We have had hard water here all my life. I have *never* chelated in my life. My hair is fine!

littlestarface
October 30th, 2016, 05:38 PM
Well I'll be a monkey's uncle! I have never chelated my hair before and we have hard water!! I guess I know what my next hair project is.:bigeyes:

You should try it, it made my hair very bouncy and super wavy!

Annalouise
October 30th, 2016, 05:44 PM
OMG. We have had hard water here all my life. I have *never* chelated in my life. My hair is fine!

Maybe sulphate shampoo removes hard water deposits?? I always thought it did. I was very surprised to hear that it didn't. :confused:


You should try it, it made my hair very bouncy and super wavy!

I shall try it. My ends do get very dry. I wonder if its not dryness per say, but hard water deposits? Only one way to find out! :toast:

Wildcat Diva
October 30th, 2016, 05:49 PM
Nope, clarifying doesn't chelate.

Annalouise
October 30th, 2016, 05:54 PM
Nope, clarifying doesn't chelate.

:bigeyes: How long have I been growing long hair in a hard water area and I didn't know that! :popcorn:

littlestarface
October 30th, 2016, 06:09 PM
:bigeyes: How long have I been growing long hair in a hard water area and I didn't know that! :popcorn:

I know me too I didnt know for ages,, chelating just makes your hair at a clean slate I guess, like removing anything on the hair. You gotta get something that says specifically for removing minerals I use joico chelate/clarifyer.

Annalouise
October 30th, 2016, 06:19 PM
I know me too I didnt know for ages,, chelating just makes your hair at a clean slate I guess, like removing anything on the hair. You gotta get something that says specifically for removing minerals I use joico chelate/clarifyer.

I was looking at that product. The problem is I can get a wicked headache from fragrance. Do you know if this is really smelly stuff? Does the smell linger in the hair for days?

littlestarface
October 30th, 2016, 06:35 PM
I was looking at that product. The problem is I can get a wicked headache from fragrance. Do you know if this is really smelly stuff? Does the smell linger in the hair for days?

It smells citrusy honestly and no it doesn't linger at all and I use super fragranced conditioners and those cover up every single smell lol

Annalouise
October 30th, 2016, 06:51 PM
It smells citrusy honestly and no it doesn't linger at all and I use super fragranced conditioners and those cover up every single smell lol

Well that is good news. Nothing makes me go crazy like a fragrance that won't wash out of my hair! :draw:

littlestarface
October 30th, 2016, 06:57 PM
Well that is good news. Nothing makes me go crazy like a fragrance that won't wash out of my hair! :draw:

LOL I hope this one doesn't rub you the wrong way haha Groovy Granny also uses this like me I wonder if she'll come in and say about the smell cuz to me it's light but I love heavy stuff :laugh:

Annalouise
October 30th, 2016, 07:12 PM
LOL I hope this one doesn't rub you the wrong way haha Groovy Granny also uses this like me I wonder if she'll come in and say about the smell cuz to me it's light but I love heavy stuff :laugh:

Uh oh... I better ask Groovy Granny. A fragrance addict is no judge! :tbear: :beercheer:

mizukitty
October 31st, 2016, 02:24 AM
I find that making a stronger-than-normal ACV/water mix and soaking my dry hair in it, leaving it on for like 5 minutes, and shampooing after works most effectively. I know this isn't scientifically backed up whatsoever, but I sort of see my hair like the inside of my kettle. It gets extremely disgusting and coated and there's black deposit in it, very quickly. When we clean the kettle, we let the vinegar soak in there, then boil it out, then we use detergent in it along with a final rinse. From just observation, I can kinda guess ACV *loosens* the mineral bonds with the hair, but you still need to manually (shampoo lather) remove them. Same deal with the bathtub, the lime and all the crap that builds up around the drains. Spray with vinegar, leave it to soak, then scrub off. Works like a charm.

Final rinses of ACV never do anything for my hair besides dry it out. But when I do it this way, my hair looks like a mirror. Not even exaggerating.

Wildcat Diva
October 31st, 2016, 08:01 AM
Wow! Just saw this kit...very interesting.
https://watersticks.com/showerstick/
https://watersticks.com/showerstick-installation/

Kaya
October 31st, 2016, 08:09 AM
I was looking at that product. The problem is I can get a wicked headache from fragrance. Do you know if this is really smelly stuff? Does the smell linger in the hair for days?

I use Redken Hair Cleansing Creme. I dunno how strong is strong to you, but I don't find the smell particularly overpowering. It's still got a slight citrus scent, but as far as I know, it doesn't really linger in the hair. Mind, I wash at night and sleep on damp hair. By the time I do up my hair the next day, I don't notice any scent.

Annalouise
October 31st, 2016, 11:21 AM
Kaya - I'm going to the hair salon to smell the chelating shampoos and see if I can find one that is not heavily fragranced. Thanks for the suggestion. I went to the website for our local water treatment to find out the water hardness level and it is classified as "very hard". :shocked:

Wildcat Diva - that is an interesting product. Thanks for the link.:)

Mizukitty - I have to soak my facets in straight vinegar overnight to remove the hard water deposits. :whip:

Littlestarface - I'm going to smell the Joico chelating shampoo and see how strong it is. That's the only way I'll know if I can survive it. :tbear:

littlestarface
October 31st, 2016, 11:26 AM
I find that making a stronger-than-normal ACV/water mix and soaking my dry hair in it, leaving it on for like 5 minutes, and shampooing after works most effectively. I know this isn't scientifically backed up whatsoever, but I sort of see my hair like the inside of my kettle. It gets extremely disgusting and coated and there's black deposit in it, very quickly. When we clean the kettle, we let the vinegar soak in there, then boil it out, then we use detergent in it along with a final rinse. From just observation, I can kinda guess ACV *loosens* the mineral bonds with the hair, but you still need to manually (shampoo lather) remove them. Same deal with the bathtub, the lime and all the crap that builds up around the drains. Spray with vinegar, leave it to soak, then scrub off. Works like a charm.

Final rinses of ACV never do anything for my hair besides dry it out. But when I do it this way, my hair looks like a mirror. Not even exaggerating.

Maybe I should try it this way it's the same way I clean too but I use baking soda to help cuz my stuff needs to be scrubbed down. I'm a try it when I chelate next wash cuz using it after everything never worked for me.

littlestarface
October 31st, 2016, 11:28 AM
Kaya - I'm going to the hair salon to smell the chelating shampoos and see if I can find one that is not heavily fragranced. Thanks for the suggestion. I went to the website for our local water treatment to find out the water hardness level and it is classified as "very hard". :shocked:

Wildcat Diva - that is an interesting product. Thanks for the link.:)

Mizukitty - I have to soak my facets in straight vinegar overnight to remove the hard water deposits. :whip:

Littlestarface - I'm going to smell the Joico chelating shampoo and see how strong it is. That's the only way I'll know if I can survive it. :tbear:

Thats a good way to know for sure, I'll agree with kayla it is a citrusy scent too but redken wasn't strong enough for my hair sadly.

I looked at mine to to see what the heck is in it cuz it tastes so nasty and it is also very hard here so you have same as me, crazy huh.

Annalouise
October 31st, 2016, 11:57 AM
Thats a good way to know for sure, I'll agree with kayla it is a citrusy scent too but redken wasn't strong enough for my hair sadly.

I looked at mine to to see what the heck is in it cuz it tastes so nasty and it is also very hard here so you have same as me, crazy huh.

Ok, if the redken wasn't as strong, I'll try and get the joico kpak first. Thanks. This will be interesting to see if my hair improves after shampooing once with the chelating shampoo.:)

Annalouise
October 31st, 2016, 04:23 PM
Okay Amiga's... RESULTS. I purchased the Joico Kpak clarifying shampoo and I washed my hair and then did a deep conditioner afterwards. And WOW! Holy smokes ladies, this is a game changer! :magic:
My hair is soft and silky. My ends which were kind of stiff, and dry, are now soft and smooth!
Wow! If you have hard water use this shampoo to chelate!
THANK YOU everyone and littlestarface for the suggestions!!

The bottle says to use this shampoo 2-3 times a week! That is not necessary I don't think. I'm thinking once every 3-4 weeks.

And no, the fragrance in this shampoo is not overwhelming. It is quite mild for a commercial product actually. The deep conditioner I used (biolage) is WAY more smelly than the shampoo. But the results are worth it for a day of smelly deep conditioner.

WOW!! Thank you ladies!! :cheese:

littlestarface
October 31st, 2016, 04:53 PM
Okay Amiga's... RESULTS. I purchased the Joico Kpak clarifying shampoo and I washed my hair and then did a deep conditioner afterwards. And WOW! Holy smokes ladies, this is a game changer! :magic:
My hair is soft and silky. My ends which were kind of stiff, and dry, are now soft and smooth!
Wow! If you have hard water use this shampoo to chelate!
THANK YOU everyone and littlestarface for the suggestions!!

The bottle says to use this shampoo 2-3 times a week! That is not necessary I don't think. I'm thinking once every 3-4 weeks.

And no, the fragrance in this shampoo is not overwhelming. It is quite mild for a commercial product actually. The deep conditioner I used (biolage) is WAY more smelly than the shampoo. But the results are worth it for a day of smelly deep conditioner.

WOW!! Thank you ladies!! :cheese:

Woah you got it quick! I'm happy it helped your hair too!! <3

Annalouise
October 31st, 2016, 06:46 PM
Woah you got it quick! I'm happy it helped your hair too!! <3

That's me, speedy! :run: I had to go to three stores also to find it.

littlestarface
October 31st, 2016, 06:57 PM
That's me, speedy! :run: I had to go to three stores also to find it.

I bet, That stuff was hard to find for me I had to order mine online, no one had it here. Is this your hair today? It's so beautiful I love the blonde ends and beautiful wurls!:thud:

Annalouise
October 31st, 2016, 07:09 PM
I bet, That stuff was hard to find for me I had to order mine online, no one had it here. Is this your hair today? It's so beautiful I love the blonde ends and beautiful wurls!:thud:

Aww, thanks for the compliment! :o Yes, I had to take a picture because my hair looked nice after washing it.:D My ends get lighter because I live in the desert and the sun lightens my hair. I wish it was all the same color like yours. Your hair is amazing.:blossom:

littlestarface
October 31st, 2016, 07:24 PM
Aww, thanks for the compliment! :o Yes, I had to take a picture because my hair looked nice after washing it.:D My ends get lighter because I live in the desert and the sun lightens my hair. I wish it was all the same color like yours. Your hair is amazing.:blossom:

I'm glad you took a picture cuz I was gonna ask you if I could see loooool

Mines covered every time I go outside so there's no sun lightening but man sometimes I wish I had it cuz it looks so prettty! <3 lol

Annalouise
October 31st, 2016, 07:40 PM
I'm glad you took a picture cuz I was gonna ask you if I could see loooool

Mines covered every time I go outside so there's no sun lightening but man sometimes I wish I had it cuz it looks so prettty! <3 lol

I wear my hair in a bun with a baseball cap everywhere I go. But it still gets lightened! I think because when I'm hanging out clothes to dry in my backyard I don't always put a hat on. :hmm: It's always sunny here so its hard to avoid the sun. :D