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View Full Version : Does oil block conditioner?



Alissalocks
September 20th, 2016, 07:29 AM
If I've coated in oil, let sit overnight, is it still helpful to apply a deep conditioner for a few hours prior to wash, or does the oil "block" the conditioner from its efficacy? I know I've seen recipes that include oil and conditioner, like SMT and its variations, so this is probably a silly question. In my head, I think the oil won't allow the conditioner to penetrate, but what the heck do I know?

Thanks in advance! :confused:

vampyyri
September 20th, 2016, 07:40 AM
I would think that the conditioner would break down the oil rather than sit on top of the oil. It's much like how some are able to CO-wash to get the oil off of their scalp.

lapushka
September 20th, 2016, 07:40 AM
No the oil does not block the conditioner. The conditioner will soak up some of the oil, making it easier to remove.

The rinse-out oil method is a method I use and it is about applying a little bit of oil on the lengths (mostly, for 1s, and 2s, maybe 3s) after washing, rinsing, and then applying your conditioner. (link is in my sig if you want to check it out)

triumphator!
September 20th, 2016, 07:58 AM
Yes. It depends on what oil you are using.

Certain oils coat the hair strand and create a protective layer, and others soak into the hair cuticle. Jojoba and mineral oil will create a barrier that prevent moisture from leaving or entering the hair cuticle.

The molecular structure of a non-penetrating oil is a larger arrangement of carbons that spread across the shaft instead of penetrating the hair's pores. They are also not attracted to any negatively charged proteins that make up the structure of your hair - thus forming a film on top of the shaft, instead of getting drawn in electrostatically.

This is not to say that conditioner is wasted by applying on top of a non-penetrating oil. The conditioner will still add slip and shine, but may be less effective at moisturizing the core of your hair. Also, others are correct in saying conditioner can also remove the non-penetrating oil from coating your hair shaft.

TL;DR: You want one that soaks in, instead of coating, if you are applying a conditioner on top of it. Some conditioners will remove the oil coating the shaft. It depends on the mix of products you are using.

lapushka
September 20th, 2016, 08:34 AM
Yes. It depends on what oil you are using.

Certain oils coat the hair strand and create a protective layer, and others soak into the hair cuticle. Jojoba and mineral oil will create a barrier that prevent moisture from leaving or entering the hair cuticle.

I use MO in my rinse-out oil method. Trust me, the moisture still penetrates!

Alissalocks
September 20th, 2016, 08:39 AM
(I love this place).

I typically use coconut, so a very penetrating oil, but these answers totally make sense! I can now understand why it can both penetrate and/or remove oil, dependent on the oil itself. And I love that folks here respond so thoughtfully with experience and chemistry and grooviness.

Anje
September 20th, 2016, 09:17 AM
Conditioner will dissolve the oil, assuming it's not something like Vasoline. (Even then, I think I'd start with conditioner to try to get vasoline out.)

However, I think you're really getting diminishing returns and risking hygral fatigue if you're soaking your hair in conditioner for hours. 30-40 minutes ought to do it. http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/10/deep-conditioning-effect-of-time-and.html
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/10/do-you-need-to-deep-condition-your-hair.html

triumphator!
September 20th, 2016, 10:06 AM
I use MO in my rinse-out oil method. Trust me, the moisture still penetrates!

I would argue you're locking in the moisture from your WCC method with the MO, but I'm an armchair chemist (I took classes but have no degree or anything) so I could be wrong. And everyone please correct me if I am ever wrong!

This is just my understanding. I'm sure non-penetrating oils allow some moisture in, but not as much as penetrating oils, because of the film they create on the hair.

animetor7
September 20th, 2016, 10:25 AM
I would argue you're locking in the moisture from your WCC method with the MO, but I'm an armchair chemist (I took classes but have no degree or anything) so I could be wrong. And everyone please correct me if I am ever wrong!

This is just my understanding. I'm sure non-penetrating oils allow some moisture in, but not as much as penetrating oils, because of the film they create on the hair.

I'm a bio major with a chem minor and when we've talked about the various properties of oils I've learned that mineral oil is a mild occlusive. That means it seals things in until it is removed, but because it's a mild occlusive things like water or a lot of rubbing can remove it, at least somewhat. So theoretically if you rinse long enough or do something like brushing for long enough you'll remove the layer. So it probably makes hair feel softer because it seals in what moisture is already there (a lot if you're applying wet) and does allow some emollients(penetrating moisturizer) such as a rich conditioner or penetrating oil through, not as much penetration as you'd get on clean hair, but some. That's why my preference for mineral oil is to use it after a heavy oiling of a penetrating oil to provide sort of a cover to allow the oil to penetrate rather than evaporating. I also use it in a way similar to the ROO method, but not as a way to impart moisture, but as a way to protect the lengths from lather. I then use a cheap conditioner to get the oil out and use a richer conditioner after that for moisture.

So, in short, yes occlusive oils block at least some conditioner penetration possibly all depending on their specific occlusive properties, but other oils which are emollients won't block penetration at all. My suggestion if you're worried is to use a cheap conditioner to remove the oil before applying a more moisturizing conditioner.

Entangled
September 20th, 2016, 10:26 AM
I would argue you're locking in the moisture from your WCC method with the MO, but I'm an armchair chemist (I took classes but have no degree or anything) so I could be wrong. And everyone please correct me if I am ever wrong!

This is just my understanding. I'm sure non-penetrating oils allow some moisture in, but not as much as penetrating oils, because of the film they create on the hair.

I think the point is that even if you have a non-penetrating oil, moisture gets in. If you get your hair wet with the non-penetrating oil applied, it's not going to stop the hair from getting wet. It's kinda like the fallacy that pops up with sillicones. You can get build up, but they don't smother the hair or stop it from getting moisture, otherwise your hair would be the same whether you got water on it in the shower or not. Oils probably can block some moisture from getting in, but I don't know any studies on this, so I can't say it with certainty.

I'll add to the people saying conditioner probably dissolves the oil you apply.

meteor
September 20th, 2016, 10:41 AM
The molecular structure of a non-penetrating oil is a larger arrangement of carbons that spread across the shaft instead of penetrating the hair's pores. They are also not attracted to any negatively charged proteins that make up the structure of your hair - thus forming a film on top of the shaft, instead of getting drawn in electrostatically.

This is not to say that conditioner is wasted by applying on top of a non-penetrating oil. The conditioner will still add slip and shine, but may be less effective at moisturizing the core of your hair. Also, others are correct in saying conditioner can also remove the non-penetrating oil from coating your hair shaft.

TL;DR: You want one that soaks in, instead of coating, if you are applying a conditioner on top of it. Some conditioners will remove the oil coating the shaft. It depends on the mix of products you are using.

^ I agree with this. :agree:

Oils are occlusive, so they can create a bit of a coating and a (permeable) barrier, but the extent to which this barrier is permeable will depend on which oil is used and how much oil is used and the composition of the conditioner (some conditioners contain more emulsifiers than others - the formulation is important), how long the application was and in what conditions (temperature, etc), porosity of the hair, etc, etc...


By the way, I keep hearing that conditioner removes oil better than shampoo, and I don't understand this. Shampoo (especially the clarifying kind) normally has more surfactants and is designed to remove oils (and other stuff, of course). I agree that a long conditioner soak can be a gentle way of removing some excess oil, but the same soak in clarifying shampoo should work even better in case of removing heavy oil build-up (especially if you use hot water and some massaging action). It's just that many people are not willing to soak their hair in shampoo for 30 minutes like they do with conditioner.
JC from the Natural Haven Bloom took some pictures of hair under microscope after different types of washes, and they demonstrated that CO-washed hair isn't as clean and "oil-free" as shampooed hair: http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2014/02/does-co-washing-really-clean-your-hair.html


Back to the original question, here are a couple good studies on film-forming abilities of different kinds of oils on hair:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17520153
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16258695
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11413497

animetor7
September 20th, 2016, 10:49 AM
@meteor I think that conditioners mainly work better for removing oil for two reasons, they're much gentler so you can leave them on for longer without damaging your hair. And I think the consistency of something cream-like is easier to spread thickly and evenly through the hair than shampoo would be as it tends to be more watery, or in my case, solid and the lather is very difficult to spread down the length easily.

meteor
September 20th, 2016, 11:00 AM
^ Thank you, animetor7. That's very true. :agree: And that's why I mentioned the 30 minute soak example (some people wouldn't want to do the same with clarifying shampoo to avoid harsh cleansers), but that doesn't mean that conditioner is technically more effective at oil removal. :flower: It's just something to keep in mind as an option (clarifying washes) just in case there is some massive oil build-up going on that conditioner soaks don't seem to shift...

triumphator!
September 20th, 2016, 11:59 AM
Yessssss this thread blew up with science!

http://130.211.105.87/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/science-cat.jpg

littlestarface
September 20th, 2016, 12:07 PM
Conditioner is fantastic at removing oil. You hear people all the time say "I had to wash my hair 3 times to get oil out and it was still oily" oh my that can't be good at all, when literally a 30min soak with conditioner will remove all that and still keep hair clean bouncy and soft. Even I still wash my scalp with 1 shampoo after a conditioner soak and I never had any stringiness or oily spots after my hair dried.

All hail conditioner!

Nymphe
September 20th, 2016, 01:35 PM
It would seem that fatty alcohols are more attracted to oils since the alcohols are closer to oils than either detergent or soap - like dissolves like.

A slight OT question: Why are some oils more more conditioning than others? For example, WO with castor oil leaves behind a silky trace on my hair and makes my hair soft, but olive oil leaves me greasy. Should I just avoid oils with similar fatty acids to olive oil? I have read this one already: Oils – Which Ones Soak In vs. Coat the Hair? (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/oils-which-ones-soak-in-vs-coat-hair.html)

Anje
September 20th, 2016, 02:34 PM
Consider how much more conditioner than shampoo people use, too. I'm reasonably certain that if you used a handful or two of shampoo, it would get oil out very effectively.

Alissalocks
September 20th, 2016, 04:43 PM
Yessssss this thread blew up with science!

http://130.211.105.87/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/science-cat.jpg
And I'm loving it, just sitting over here, taking notes!

animetor7
September 20th, 2016, 04:53 PM
It would seem that fatty alcohols are more attracted to oils since the alcohols are closer to oils than either detergent or soap - like dissolves like.

A slight OT question: Why are some oils more more conditioning than others? For example, WO with castor oil leaves behind a silky trace on my hair and makes my hair soft, but olive oil leaves me greasy. Should I just avoid oils with similar fatty acids to olive oil? I have read this one already: Oils – Which Ones Soak In vs. Coat the Hair? (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2013/06/oils-which-ones-soak-in-vs-coat-hair.html)

It in part depends on that oil's occlusive (sealing) properties vs it's emollient (moisturizing/absorbing) properties, but these are based on how big the oil molecule itself is, and then whether it can get in between the outer "scales" of the hair shaft to soak into the hair and be absorbed. And the space between these "scales" varies from person to person, even along the same strand of hair depending on how damaged it is. So if your "scales" are farther apart a larger or "heavier" oil would be able to absorb and moisturize and if they're closer together that same oil might just sit on top. Avoiding oils with similar fatty acids to olive oil might work, as they'd likely be a similar size to the olive oil molecules that don't penetrate your hair shaft, but they might vary in other ways that could help them absorb even with big molecules, polarity for example can affect absorption. This complicates the "scale" spaces idea, and your individual hair and scalp physics and chemistry will affect how readily your hair absorbs things too. Ultimately I think you'll just have to experiment to see what works and what doesn't.

TLDR Molecular size and thus fatty acid type certainly affects oil absorption or coating, but it is one of many factors and YMMV.

ETA:

Hair with close together "scales":
http://all-that-is-interesting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/under-microscope-strand-of-hair.jpeg
Hair with farther apart "scales":
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRP9YT--_remS0OeS28Ugg-a6ypxeqxX6T93oT93jXUDhK28ppm

Nymphe
September 20th, 2016, 05:30 PM
Ultimately I think you'll just have to experiment to see what works and what doesn't.

TLDR Molecular size and thus fatty acid type certainly affects oil absorption or coating, but it is one of many factors and YMMV.
Thank you. I was hoping to find a shortcut to get out of testing a ton of oil samples. Yet, if the culprit is oleic acid (the main one in olive oil), that would eliminate a bunch right there. Time to test some sesame oil...

calmyogi
September 20th, 2016, 09:22 PM
This is an interesting post. I love it when people can actually answer with the chemistry knowledge.

I have always wondered the opposite. Does conditioner prevent oils from penetrating? I mean after it was washed and conditioned then oil is put on the hair after.

Daydreamer.
September 21st, 2016, 06:25 AM
This is an interesting post. I love it when people can actually answer with the chemistry knowledge. I have always wondered the opposite. Does conditioner prevent oils from penetrating? I mean after it was washed and conditioned then oil is put on the hair after. Same here. Since returning to using silicone conditioners, I wonder if oiling afterwards (or heavy oiling before washing) is still effective.

animetor7
September 21st, 2016, 01:44 PM
This is an interesting post. I love it when people can actually answer with the chemistry knowledge.

I have always wondered the opposite. Does conditioner prevent oils from penetrating? I mean after it was washed and conditioned then oil is put on the hair after.


Same here. Since returning to using silicone conditioners, I wonder if oiling afterwards (or heavy oiling before washing) is still effective.

As long as you clarify with some regularity your oils should still penetrate. I use coney conditioners and a coney serum with every wash and coconut oil still penetrates. when it starts to just sit, it's time to clarify. :)

meteor
September 21st, 2016, 03:19 PM
^ Oh yes! I definitely agree with the posts above. :agree:

Human hair can absorb so much (especially if there is a lot of hair and if it's porous, etc) that it's even widely used to soak up oil spills (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8674539.stm) and it's kind of hard to cover hair with enough silicones or oils that the layer would noticeably occlude other stuff - it would just take a lot of product and probably make hair unpresentable and full of build-up... Just for a point of reference: according to L'Oreal Hair Science (http://www.hair-science.com/_int/_en/topic/topic_sousrub.aspx?tc=ROOT-HAIR-SCIENCE%5EPORTRAIT-OF-AN-UNKNOWN-ELEMENT%5EWHAT-WE-DO-SEE&cur=WHAT-WE-DO-SEE), on average, "the total surface area of a head of hair 20 centimetres long is 6 m² [...] the surface area of the scalp is 600 cm², a head of hair 20 centimetres long therefore occupies an area 100 times greater than its place of origin."* I'd imagine it's pretty hard to cover all that surface area with silicone serum enough to significantly impact absorption of other stuff without making hair visibly pretty coated in the process. And if it does happen, there's always clarifying. ;)


(*L'Oreal's claim sent me on a bit of a kick to calculate my own hair's surface area just for fun, so using the formula for calculating surface area of cylinders (i.e. 2πrh + πr^2 + πr^2) minus one end, which is embedded in the scalp (so the end formula is 2πrh + πr^2),
I assumed h (height, i.e. my current hair length) = 135 cm
r (radius, i.e. half of average hair strand diameter, assuming 80 microns for low end of coarse hair, which I think I have) = 40 microns/micrometers (there could be a lot of variation, since I have all sorts of F/M/C hair)

I multiplied end result by 100,000 (which represents average # of strands on human head) = and got ~ 34 sq. meters (since my hair is iii, I also calculated it for above average strand count, and I got ~51 sq. meters for 150,000 strands and ~ 42 sq. meters for 125,000 strands). :bigeyes: (Yes, clearly, I have too much free time :oops:) Anyway, I think that's pretty huge surface area, if you ask me, no wonder I can use oils by the palmfuls and all sorts of lint, bobby pins, etc get lost somewhere there in that mess :lol: )

Alissalocks
September 21st, 2016, 08:42 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: