Last ditch end saving attempt

[ElvenEngineer]

My ends are still dry and crunchy and velcro-y. After 3 weeks of not using protein conditioners, they actually seemed to get significantly *worse* and drier.

My routine is mostly still the same as it has been: I CWC with a dilute gentle shampoo (Giovanni's Tea Tree Triple Treat -- I stopped using the Nature's Gate one that had alcohol and sodium hydroxide in it, just as a precaution) every 2-3 days. Instead of Earth Science's Frangrance Free (which had jojoba oil, fatty alcohols, behentrimonium chloride, and hydrolyzed soy protein as major ingredients), I experimented with Free&Clear's Conditioner and with Giovanni's Route 66 Max Volume Conditioner (which is richer but I'm really ready to be done with the irritating fragrance), both of which are mainly fatty alcohols, quats and humectants. I was never totally satisfied with how my hair felt with those. I even mixed in jojoba oil and extra aloe vera, and while that helped, there still seemed to be something missing.

I've tried 3 SMTs (though two of them were the day after henna) -- I had to clarify (just washing with more of my normal shampoo) after one of those because too much got on my scalp and my hair was super greasy and limp. I've been oiling lightly, focusing on the ends, with argan oil and with a jojoba/coconut mix, post-wash and whenever it seems to need a little extra. (So no change in routine there, I've just been more diligent because I'm focusing on it.) I've also been wearing my hair up most days.

So going protein-free didn't work. If anything it made it worse. SMTs haven't fixed the ends. Chelating with Malibu's chelating treatment powder improves the feeling of my hair from root to tip -- it doesn't totally fix the ends, though it does make them less tangly and better-feeling. They're still dry post-chelating and I can't get them to take up moisture.

I've found a salon that specializes in curly hair in my area, and I'm thinking of getting an inch or two taken off (my problem is heavily concentrated in the last two inches). Though I'm not a curly (I'm a wavy), I think I'd feel far more comfortable getting my hair cut there because they are familiar with gentle hair handling, don't blow dry, don't use brushes, cut dry and cut to wear at a natural texture.

I wanted to check in first though: Is there anything else I should try to save my ends? Grill me as much as you want about what I've been doing so far -- I tried to get the main points down without going overboard. :D

Help me exhaust my options before I take drastic measures! (This would be my first professional haircut in ... 7 years).

[lapushka]

What about Feye's self-trimming method?

I get a feeling you are trying one thing after the other, not giving your hair much of a break. I'd S/C with a clarifying shampoo and not do CWC for a couple of washes. If after that it still feels odd, go ahead.

[Thraven]

Seconding what lapushka said about giving your hair some downtime between trials. Also, what is your water like? Is it hard, soft, somewhere in the middle? Have you thought about trying a whole different line of products for your conditioner? Maybe something without humectants?

[Obsidian]

Have you tried a coney conditioner?

[meteor]

If the hair is so damaged that a trim is imminent and the hair responds really well to protein, I'd recommend Aphogee 2-Step Professional Treatment (followed by a moisture treatment) - it's a very strong protein treatment for badly damaged hair.

Ideally I'd clarify and chelate first. Also, I'd make it a point to use coconut oil or some other penetrating oil before every wash for protection and I'd use conditioner with silicones, 18-MEA, ceramides.

[ElvenEngineer]

Seconding what lapushka said about giving your hair some downtime between trials. Also, what is your water like? Is it hard, soft, somewhere in the middle? Have you thought about trying a whole different line of products for your conditioner? Maybe something without humectants?

My water is quite hard, and chlorinated. I use a shower filter. I've been chelating weekly for the past few weeks, and I like how that turns out. Why would humectants be an issue? (It's extremely humid where I live this time of year)

[ElvenEngineer]

Have you tried a coney conditioner?

I haven't tried one in years, honestly. I've been trying to avoid it, if possible, but it's not totally out of the question.

[Seeshami]

There is nothing wrong with using cones and any one who would love to debate that with me can look at my hair progress and length and then proceed to first debating the matter of hair crack with his highness The Naughty Mess. (hint: No you won't survive. he loves his crack)

First I would clarify and see what is going on first. Slim down the treatments and the experiments. You have a lot going on and your hair might need to chill out. Meteor has given the advice that would help my hair personally the most so I ditto there.

[Obsidian]

I have fine hair and humectants dry my hair out badly, especially honey. The popular SMT almost ruined my hair due to the honey. I've read that sometimes humectants can pull moisture out of the hair instead of attracting moisture to it, makes sense to me and I suppose this is what happens to me.

I tried really hard to get away without using conditioner with cones due to my scalp not liking them but my hair was thirsty, I had to try something. Oils don't work, humectants don't work, that didn't leave me with many options. I experimented with a few different conditioners with cones until I finally found one that agrees with my scalp and works great on my hair.

I would definitely give a nice thick coney conditioner a try before you go in for a cut.

[pailin]

Also, you mentioned an oil mix with coconut oil- is that recent? Some people do great with coconut oil, and some of us get nasty crunchy ends. Back in February I was thinking I might need to give up on the no-trimming challenge because my ends were so nasty, dry and hard and crunchy, even though they weren't splitting. But I had been using coconut oil for a couple of weeks. I stopped that, and my ends recovered within a few days.

[ElvenEngineer]

What about Feye's self-trimming method?

I get a feeling you are trying one thing after the other, not giving your hair much of a break. I'd S/C with a clarifying shampoo and not do CWC for a couple of washes. If after that it still feels odd, go ahead.

I've done little trims (micro-trims? like 1/8 in) myself, but I don't feel comfortable going much beyond that, partially because we start to get into blunt-end territory there and I don't necessarily know what shape would work for my hair.

You're right to an extent that I've been trying one thing right after another. First, I clarified, and I had some good results but they didn't last. Then, I switched to protein-free conditioner. I had to try some variation on that because it felt like it was leaving my hair really under-moisturized and hard to detangle, hence the oil and the aloe additions, the different brand, and the first SMT.

In the meantime, I henna'd (with a coconut milk paste). Definitely not the best idea to throw that in there while trying to figure other stuff out, but I have had good results henna'ing in the past (my hair is in better condition now than it was then -- it was more like the ends all over back then). I wasn't necessarily looking to fix anything with that; I just missed henna.

Before I henna'd, both because I had heard it was a good idea to get henna to stick more and because I heard it might be contributing to my hair problems, I chelated. I got a weekly treatment powder from Malibu C and have been using it every week since then because I liked the results so much immediately after using it on my hair. I got great results both immediately after the henna'ings and every time I've chelated. Doesn't fix the ends entirely, but it does make them less "sticky"/tangly/velcro-y, plus it gives me a lot of shine as well as volume that I don't otherwise have. Of everything I've tried, the chelating has been the greatest success, though I might switch to a gentler method like citric acid rinses.

I did SMTs after each henna application (twice...leftover paste) partly because it's recommended for potential post-henna dryness (which I experienced a little bit, but not strongly) and partly because I thought my hair might need moisture. I did not see any noticeable results from SMTs, except the time I got too much on my scalp and made it greasy.

Nothing else is a change of routine. I've been CWC'ing for years (of course, maybe that's my problem :)). Do you think CWC'ing might be the long-term problem? Or should I just go back to baseline (maybe keeping one change) and let my hair get back to it's baseline? I definitely don't plan to henna for a while. I ran out of it and won't be buying more until after my next move.

[ElvenEngineer]

Also, you mentioned an oil mix with coconut oil- is that recent? Some people do great with coconut oil, and some of us get nasty crunchy ends. Back in February I was thinking I might need to give up on the no-trimming challenge because my ends were so nasty, dry and hard and crunchy, even though they weren't splitting. But I had been using coconut oil for a couple of weeks. I stopped that, and my ends recovered within a few days.

The jojoba-coconut mix is newish (like 6 months ago), but the problems with my ends are older. :flower: Straight coconut oil does not agree with my hair (makes it stiff/sticky), but I have not noticed any issues with the mix. My ends do split quite a bit. I feel like I can never get it all with S&D.

[ElvenEngineer]

If the hair is so damaged that a trim is imminent and the hair responds really well to protein, I'd recommend Aphogee 2-Step Professional Treatment (followed by a moisture treatment) - it's a very strong protein treatment for badly damaged hair.

Ideally I'd clarify and chelate first. Also, I'd make it a point to use coconut oil or some other penetrating oil before every wash for protection and I'd use conditioner with silicones, 18-MEA, ceramides.

Hmm... recommendation for protein treatment definitely noted. I'll do some more research into that.

I'm trying to avoid silicones if possible; however, googling 18-MEA and ceramides has sent me down such an interesting ingredient rabbit hole I didn't know I was missing. I'll definitely be reading up on those. Penetrating oils are another thing I'd be interested in experimenting with -- the research on coconut oil is pretty compelling and I'd be interested in maybe doing an overnight treatment pre-wash.

However, I might just have to wait a couple weeks to give my hair a break. :D

[ElvenEngineer]

Come to think of it, maybe humectants *are* an issue. The humectants in the protein-containing conditioner (that my hair likes better) are much further down in the ingredients list than in the Free&Clear conditioner, which my hair did not like (and did not seem to moisturize at all).

[lapushka]

I've done little trims (micro-trims? like 1/8 in) myself, but I don't feel comfortable going much beyond that, partially because we start to get into blunt-end territory there and I don't necessarily know what shape would work for my hair.

I think you'll mess it up far less than a hairdresser possibly would. And if one shape doesn't work for you, you can grow it out into a different shape. Experimenting with the method is how you become comfortable with it. Meaning: you have to learn at some point if you're going to self-trim. Believe me, nothing beats that feeling of being able to do this for yourself. Maybe try and give yourself a slightly larger trim (not quite as much as you'd like) but larger, just to try it out. I don't want to push you, because God forbid something should go wrong and I told you to go ahead and do it. It's all up to you and what you're comfortable with!

I think ends pick up (because they're the oldest and dryest) on the slightest bit of variation. That's how it is for me. I also have to be careful about switching things around too too much. Products, yes, to an extent, but methods, not so much.

I'd try just about anything at this point. It can't be that at that length your ends are "dead". I just refuse to give into that fact!!! There has to be a solution to this. So yes, I'd try just "regular" S/C, for a couple washes. And just don't do anything else like an SMT, just plain S, just plain C, and not much else.

[missmagoo]

I have to put in another vote for 'cones here. I tried to cut them out for a long time too, but they really do make my hair less tangly. I think light come use can be protective, and while cones don't solve dryness issues necessarily, they help protect your hair.

[Deborah]

All the treatments suggested sound fine, but I think you probably need to trim off an inch or two. Of course the ends are dead; all your hair is dead. That's why it does not hurt to cut it. But the ends sound damaged, and that's a different thing. No one can 'fix' damaged ends. You can only make them feel better to touch. It's up to you of course, as it is your hair. If it were me, I'd do a one or two inch trim.

Best of luck with whatever you try!

[ElvenEngineer]

I think ends pick up (because they're the oldest and dryest) on the slightest bit of variation. That's how it is for me. I also have to be careful about switching things around too too much. Products, yes, to an extent, but methods, not so much.

I'd try just about anything at this point. It can't be that at that length your ends are "dead". I just refuse to give into that fact!!! There has to be a solution to this. So yes, I'd try just "regular" S/C, for a couple washes. And just don't do anything else like an SMT, just plain S, just plain C, and not much else.

Well, they are quite damaged. If my hair grows six inches a year (which is generous, I suspect I grow more slowly than that), then my ends are 4-5 years old! (That means the hair that was on the top of my head when I was 17-18 ). Though I haven't box dyed since I was 15 (dyed it black from dark brown), so it all should be "virgin", I used to treat my hair much more roughly than I do now. 17-18 was right around the time I first moved to a hard water area, I was experimenting with stuff like BS washes and ACV, and I was detangling roughly, because I didn't know better. And it wasn't until 21 that I started wearing it up with any regularity (besides a ponytail on 3rd day hair), and even after that I wasn't so great about doing it frequently at times, so there's so much mechanical damage from heavy bookbag straps, and extra damage from detangling because it used to tangle a lot more back then.

Sometimes I worry, because I've heard damage can "travel up the strand" that I'm in this purgatory of eternally damaged ends, where by the time a strand breaks, "travelling damage" and mechanical damage from extra detangling has caused the new end to be just as damaged! I'm not sure if this is actually a well-founded concern, but it's definitely a reason I'm considering a trim.

I do have a silk pillowcase coming, though. :D I've been needing to replace the one I had been using that got ruined in the wash for around a year.

But yeah, I'll definitely try just S/C'ing these next couple washes.

As for self-trimming vs. getting a trim, I do want to learn eventually. But I'm also lucky to live in a small "hippie" town in the US -- so there's a hair salon specializing in curly and natural hair for all ethnicities (It's a mostly white and Asian city, but about 50% of the clients are black and the staff is diverse -- I'm not black, but that's, to me, a good sign they know how to handle a variety of hair types very gently). They talk about things like finding a cut that works with your hair type, your preferred products, and without heat styling. It has good reviews on places like NaturallyCurly.com. Considering all that, if I do get a trim, I suspect they will do a better job than I will. But I'm definitely going to stay away from strip mall chain salons and uber-trendy blowout bars.

[lapushka]

Well, they are quite damaged. If my hair grows six inches a year (which is generous, I suspect I grow more slowly than that), then my ends are 4-5 years old! (That means the hair that was on the top of my head when I was 17-18 ). Though I haven't box dyed since I was 15 (dyed it black from dark brown), so it all should be "virgin", I used to treat my hair much more roughly than I do now. 17-18 was right around the time I first moved to a hard water area, I was experimenting with stuff like BS washes and ACV, and I was detangling roughly, because I didn't know better. And it wasn't until 21 that I started wearing it up with any regularity (besides a ponytail on 3rd day hair), and even after that I wasn't so great about doing it frequently at times, so there's so much mechanical damage from heavy bookbag straps, and extra damage from detangling because it used to tangle a lot more back then.

Sometimes I worry, because I've heard damage can "travel up the strand" that I'm in this purgatory of eternally damaged ends, where by the time a strand breaks, "travelling damage" and mechanical damage from extra detangling has caused the new end to be just as damaged! I'm not sure if this is actually a well-founded concern, but it's definitely a reason I'm considering a trim.

I do have a silk pillowcase coming, though. :D I've been needing to replace the one I had been using that got ruined in the wash for around a year.

But yeah, I'll definitely try just S/C'ing these next couple washes.

As for self-trimming vs. getting a trim, I do want to learn eventually. But I'm also lucky to live in a small "hippie" town in the US -- so there's a hair salon specializing in curly and natural hair for all ethnicities (It's a mostly white and Asian city, but about 50% of the clients are black and the staff is diverse -- I'm not black, but that's, to me, a good sign they know how to handle a variety of hair types very gently). They talk about things like finding a cut that works with your hair type, your preferred products, and without heat styling. It has good reviews on places like NaturallyCurly.com. Considering all that, if I do get a trim, I suspect they will do a better job than I will. But I'm definitely going to stay away from strip mall chain salons and uber-trendy blowout bars.

Traveling up the strand is when it concerns a split end. Not any other type of damage. Damage doesn't just "travel" in general. ;) Don't worry too much! :D :thumbsup:

You're lucky with that hair salon then!

[Ana H.]

I have to put in another vote for 'cones here. I tried to cut them out for a long time too, but they really do make my hair less tangly. I think light come use can be protective, and while cones don't solve dryness issues necessarily, they help protect your hair.

Me too! I recently added silicones back into my routine after a two years of silicone free and my hair feels so good! The comb just glides right through and the ends are much less velcro-y.

[hobbitlocks]

Hmm... recommendation for protein treatment definitely noted. I'll do some more research into that.

I'm trying to avoid silicones if possible; however, googling 18-MEA and ceramides has sent me down such an interesting ingredient rabbit hole I didn't know I was missing. I'll definitely be reading up on those. Penetrating oils are another thing I'd be interested in experimenting with -- the research on coconut oil is pretty compelling and I'd be interested in maybe doing an overnight treatment pre-wash.

However, I might just have to wait a couple weeks to give my hair a break. :D

I wanted to chime in here and say I've had really good luck with 18-MEA. Before I was purposefully growing out my hair, I got a free sample of a shampoo/conditioner and it made my hair look so nice I didn't feel the need to heat style it. Obviously, I bought it immediately and have been using it ever since. Since joining here I've done some searching and I think the ingredient that really helps me is 18-MEA.

[ElvenEngineer]

Do you have any product suggestions? I've been having a really hard time finding something with 18-MEA in it.

[hobbitlocks]

I use this conditioner (and until recently its matching shampoo), from DHC (http://www.dhccare.com/light-smooth-conditioner). I try to stock up when it goes on sale. They're pretty generous with samples, so I wonder if you called or emailed you might be able to try it.

Here's an older thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=120288) with some other products. I don't know how up to date it is. I've thought about trying the Loreal ones but never have.

[timeschild]

I have been using 180 pro it's a shampoo conditioner and hair oil. Repairs two years of damage. My hair feels amazing. Got it at sallys it's like eight or nine bucks. My hair was uber dry and I had split ends and white dots. Now my hair is way healthy.