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Flossiebell
July 21st, 2016, 01:38 AM
Hi All

I've had issues with my scalp and hair fall for some time and I'm not sure if I've had a lightbulb moment. I have been using dry and damaged hair shampoo and conditioner for 10 odd years. I have also had hair loss for about the same amount of years I think, mainly the front half of my head, it's sensitive now (poss due to thinning hair?).

Anyway....I cannot use any oils or conditioner on my scalp because my hair falls out. Which led me to wonder...if I'm using products for dry/damaged hair, would it be reasonable to assume that they will be full of extra moisturising ingredients that *may* emulate oils or conditioner on my scalp? So whilst they may make my hair feel nicer, it could be counter productive?

I've been to the doctors and they just said they could see it had thinned but they couldn't do anything about it, they suggested gentle shampoo and be careful when combing it.

What do you wonderful hair gurus think? Is it possible that is the problem? Or am I just grasping at straws? It's making me so unhappy.

Johannah
July 21st, 2016, 02:24 AM
First, you can take a look at the ingredients so you know what's in there. Second, only one way to find out if this is the cause: try another shampoo and conditioner for the next couple of weeks. If you notice a difference, then you know enough :)

lapushka
July 21st, 2016, 05:08 AM
First, you can take a look at the ingredients so you know what's in there. Second, only one way to find out if this is the cause: try another shampoo and conditioner for the next couple of weeks. If you notice a difference, then you know enough :)

I second this. I don't know why you haven't switched it up earlier, just to see if it was product-related. I doubt it. Did the doctor have bloodwork done?

pailin
July 21st, 2016, 05:46 AM
I would add, specifically try another shampoo that is NOT for dry/damaged hair, or curly or frizzy hair, or for getting sleek hair, since those are usually similar. Something like a daily use one, one that won't be heavy on moisturizers/protein/whatever else is in the one(s) you've been using.

lapushka
July 21st, 2016, 06:39 AM
Also, if you are using conditioner on your scalp. It is a "thing". Some people can't put conditioner (or oil) on their scalp or they will shed *heaps*. So try not putting the conditioner on your scalp for a long while, and see what it does in the long run, if hairs grow back or no.

Flossiebell
July 21st, 2016, 06:45 AM
Hi Lapushka, I did try lots of different things, but they were all for dry/damaged hair or more natural products that would be very moisturising etc. I honestly don't know why it never occurred to me til now that the moisturising properties could be an issue.
The doctor wasn't interested. They said there was nothing they could do. When I went back to see another doctor they recommended nizoral shampoo and said they couldnt help anymore.

Flossiebell
July 21st, 2016, 06:49 AM
I try not to get conditioner on my scalp but I never thought about shampoo. I think it's because so many shampoos now contain oils and butters it never really occurred to me.

I'm just going to try and find some 'normal' shampoo with as little natural stuff in as possible and see if that works. I wonder how long I will have to wait to see if any hair starts growing back. Keeping everything crossed!

Thanks for the support, my DH just thinks I'm a bit strange when it comes to my hair.

lapushka
July 21st, 2016, 07:40 AM
I try not to get conditioner on my scalp but I never thought about shampoo. I think it's because so many shampoos now contain oils and butters it never really occurred to me.

I'm just going to try and find some 'normal' shampoo with as little natural stuff in as possible and see if that works. I wonder how long I will have to wait to see if any hair starts growing back. Keeping everything crossed!

Thanks for the support, my DH just thinks I'm a bit strange when it comes to my hair.

Pantene volume shampoo or the Pantene Aqua Light are good ones to pick. Pantene do a clarifying shampoo that is great also. You don't have to choose Pantene if you don't want too. Just try and find a shampoo for normal/oily hair. They have the least moisturizing properties.

You didn't have any bloodwork done, then? How is that even possible. I thought that went along with a regular check. Or did you have bloodwork done and it was all okay? I'm confused. If you don't want to answer, that's fine also. :)

Flossiebell
July 21st, 2016, 08:28 AM
Pantene volume shampoo or the Pantene Aqua Light are good ones to pick. Pantene do a clarifying shampoo that is great also. You don't have to choose Pantene if you don't want too. Just try and find a shampoo for normal/oily hair. They have the least moisturizing properties.

You didn't have any bloodwork done, then? How is that even possible. I thought that went along with a regular check. Or did you have bloodwork done and it was all okay? I'm confused. If you don't want to answer, that's fine also. :)

I had no blood work done. It was just a case of 'yes we can see there is a problem but there's nothing we can do about it' all said with a cheery smile. Gee thanks for that! As I went three times in all and saw 2 different doctors I kinda gave up with them. Admittedly the 3rd time the doctor said the only other route was alopecia and he didn't want to go down that route. So it just ended there!

Thanks for the recommendations, I will definitely have a look at Pantene as my old neighbour used to tell me it was the best there was.

diddiedaisy
July 21st, 2016, 08:33 AM
I had no blood work done. It was just a case of 'yes we can see there is a problem but there's nothing we can do about it' all said with a cheery smile. Gee thanks for that! As I went three times in all and saw 2 different doctors I kinda gave up with them. Admittedly the 3rd time the doctor said the only other route was alopecia and he didn't want to go down that route. So it just ended there!

Thanks for the recommendations, I will definitely have a look at Pantene as my old neighbour used to tell me it was the best there was.

I had a similar response from my doctor after taking about 6 months to pluck up the courage and go. Although my doctor threw in a rant about hairdressers and marketing lol I don't know if it was because he a male doctor or not, but either way the lack of interest was quite astounding.

lapushka
July 21st, 2016, 08:37 AM
Can't you ask for bloodwork? As part of a regular check-up? There has to be a reason?

Here my doctor does a regular / yearly check-up on all of us (mom, dad, me). Just part of regular care.

Bizarre. :)

Flossiebell
July 21st, 2016, 08:43 AM
Pantene volume shampoo or the Pantene Aqua Light are good ones to pick. Pantene do a clarifying shampoo that is great also. You don't have to choose Pantene if you don't want too. Just try and find a shampoo for normal/oily hair. They have the least moisturizing properties.

You didn't have any bloodwork done, then? How is that even possible. I thought that went along with a regular check. Or did you have bloodwork done and it was all okay? I'm confused. If you don't want to answer, that's fine also. :)


I had a similar response from my doctor after taking about 6 months to pluck up the courage and go. Although my doctor threw in a rant about hairdressers and marketing lol I don't know if it was because he a male doctor or not, but either way the lack of interest was quite astounding.

Hi diddiedaisy, the first doctor I saw was female and she just told me that she could see that I had a large thin patch, but she couldn't do anything other than advise I don't use a hairdryer, comb carefully and use a mild shampoo and did I want a tissue?! They do make me wonder sometimes.

diddiedaisy
July 21st, 2016, 08:48 AM
Hi diddiedaisy, the first doctor I saw was female and she just told me that she could see that I had a large thin patch, but she couldn't do anything other than advise I don't use a hairdryer, comb carefully and use a mild shampoo and did I want a tissue?! They do make me wonder sometimes.

A tissue...maybe smelling salts as well!!!

Lapushka, in the UK we don't (or at least I've never known it) get bloods done on a regular basis unless they suspect something is wrong. is the reason I would think.

lapushka
July 21st, 2016, 08:50 AM
A tissue...maybe smelling salts as well!!!

Lapushka, in the UK we don't (or at least I've never known it) get bloods done on a regular basis unless they suspect something is wrong. is the reason I would think.

Oh is the OP from the UK? :)

Flossiebell
July 21st, 2016, 10:27 AM
Oh is the OP from the UK? :)

Yes I am from the UK, but several people I know within the UK have asked that same question about bloods.

Johannah
July 21st, 2016, 10:56 AM
How about thyroid levels? Could this be something? I've heard a lot of people who had problems with hair loss etc. because of this.

lapushka
July 21st, 2016, 12:04 PM
Yes I'm so surprised they just brushed you off like that! This could very well have an underlying cause. :no: I think that's terrible, especially because you showed them your thinning hair - then they have cause to look for something in the blood, no?

Garnetgem
July 21st, 2016, 12:16 PM
Yes I am from the UK, but several people I know within the UK have asked that same question about bloods.

Yep typical UK they send you off with a bottle of shampoo and say treat it gently,i went through this myself for years the shampoos i tried was massive..i recently stopped a certain shampoo which was for dry damaged hair and it seems to help somewhat so the mention of added oils seems to make sense..but i know they never offer a blood test for hair loss around here even if we offered to pay for it ourself they don't take hair loss or thinning seriously somehow...and Nizoral is the first thing they prescribe..do hope you get it sorted as i know the feeling of this happening.

Garnetgem
July 21st, 2016, 12:20 PM
Yes I'm so surprised they just brushed you off like that! This could very well have an underlying cause. :no: I think that's terrible, especially because you showed them your thinning hair - then they have cause to look for something in the blood, no?

They do brush a patient off with hair loss in the UK its like they have no time for us..the number of times i asked when both me and my mum suffered hair loss in the past but they just told us to wash it with this or that and say bye now without even looking up from their desks..it surprises many who are not in the UK that hair loss is not taken more seriously.

calmyogi
July 21st, 2016, 01:17 PM
I know here in the US if you go in with sudden hair fall they would most likely take blood to check your thyroid. It's possible if you went into a walk in or low income clinic they would snub you, but with persistence they would take blood.

Flossiebell
July 21st, 2016, 04:05 PM
Yep typical UK they send you off with a bottle of shampoo and say treat it gently,i went through this myself for years the shampoos i tried was massive..i recently stopped a certain shampoo which was for dry damaged hair and it seems to help somewhat so the mention of added oils seems to make sense..but i know they never offer a blood test for hair loss around here even if we offered to pay for it ourself they don't take hair loss or thinning seriously somehow...and Nizoral is the first thing they prescribe..do hope you get it sorted as i know the feeling of this happening.

It definitely sounds like dry/damaged hair products could be making things worse. I'm glad you have noticed some improvement, I just hope I see some improvement too. I don't understand why they don't take these things seriously in the UK, I've been obsessing over it for years, having to wear hats all the time because the uv makes my thin patch really sore. People treat me like I'm abnormal which affects my self esteem and it could all be avoided if the doctor took me seriously. Anyway I'm ranting now...sorry. I hope that you continue to see improvement with your hair x

Garnetgem
July 21st, 2016, 04:46 PM
It definitely sounds like dry/damaged hair products could be making things worse. I'm glad you have noticed some improvement, I just hope I see some improvement too. I don't understand why they don't take these things seriously in the UK, I've been obsessing over it for years, having to wear hats all the time because the uv makes my thin patch really sore. People treat me like I'm abnormal which affects my self esteem and it could all be avoided if the doctor took me seriously. Anyway I'm ranting now...sorry. I hope that you continue to see improvement with your hair x

That's fine rant away its a big issue when we lose our hair it really knocks our confidence..both i and my mum were like that for 20 years it was hell we tried so many lotions and shampoos i lost my hip length hair in a matter of months i was devastated but docs just didn't take any notice..

i ask you have you anything on your scalp? like scaling or soreness? not sure if you have said i have scanned through replies and comments but i cannot see it or find it..sorry if i sound too forward in asking its just i am trying to help out if i can..

Flossiebell
July 22nd, 2016, 12:47 AM
That's fine rant away its a big issue when we lose our hair it really knocks our confidence..both i and my mum were like that for 20 years it was hell we tried so many lotions and shampoos i lost my hip length hair in a matter of months i was devastated but docs just didn't take any notice..

i ask you have you anything on your scalp? like scaling or soreness? not sure if you have said i have scanned through replies and comments but i cannot see it or find it..sorry if i sound too forward in asking its just i am trying to help out if i can..

I haven't got anything on my scalp, it just looks shiny where my parting is but that's all. It is tender/warm where the thinning is but I can't see anything else. Someone in Lush told me that I had a dry scalp hence why it was irritated but if it's shiny how can that be? Or was it shiny because of the moisturising shampoo etc I was using. And no hairdresser has said anything about my scalp. In fact a hairdresser told me not to worry about it otherwise I would make it worse! How can the docs take no notice when you lost your hip length hair, especially in that amount of time? That's awful, you would, understandably, be devastated. I'm starting to think that if the doctors don't think it's life threatening they aren't interested, but like you say it really knocks you. I'm a little hopeful today as I used some Pantene volume shampoo - thanks Lapushka - and there was hardly any hair in the shower this morning. Am really hoping it's the start of good things x

diddiedaisy
July 22nd, 2016, 01:36 AM
I've been using viviscal since February and my hair has seen improvements. My pony circ. has increased by at least 1/4 inch. It is expensive but for me it has definitely been worth it. I also have a shiny scalp, and that does concern me too.

Flossiebell
July 22nd, 2016, 01:47 AM
I've been using viviscal since February and my hair has seen improvements. My pony circ. has increased by at least 1/4 inch. It is expensive but for me it has definitely been worth it. I also have a shiny scalp, and that does concern me too.

Wow diddiedaisy, that's amazing! I've not heard of them so have just googled it. They are expensive aren't they....but if it works! I just wonder though, what happens if you stop taking them? I mean does it have to be a lifelong commitment? Definitely something to think about if I can afford it.

diddiedaisy
July 22nd, 2016, 03:43 AM
Wow diddiedaisy, that's amazing! I've not heard of them so have just googled it. They are expensive aren't they....but if it works! I just wonder though, what happens if you stop taking them? I mean does it have to be a lifelong commitment? Definitely something to think about if I can afford it.

From what I understand they work differently from the lifetime commitment stuff, sorry I can't remember what you call it off the top of my head. With these they suggest 2 a day for approx 6 months or longer depending on how they have worked on you, then one a day for maintenance. Lots of people seem to use these to sort their hair issue out and then drop them because of the price, and they don't lose what hair they have gained.

If you go on the proper viviscal site, they offer a 3 monthly auto-renew package called elite for 89.90, you get 3 months tablets, shampoo, conditioner, and elixir. This seems to be the cheapest way to go. When my current supply runs out I will get it this way. I won't use the shampoo etc so I'll stick them on ebay which in turn will make my tablets cheaper.

Garnetgem
July 22nd, 2016, 06:58 AM
Wow diddiedaisy, that's amazing! I've not heard of them so have just googled it. They are expensive aren't they....but if it works! I just wonder though, what happens if you stop taking them? I mean does it have to be a lifelong commitment? Definitely something to think about if I can afford it.

They sound good never tried viviscal i am on Tesco skin hair and nails 3 a box and since then my hair thickness is returning..one other thing i tried was Perfectil word of warning i started shedding like crazy while on them so did my mum it stopped when we stopped taking them and i later heard my friend did too so avoid those..but viviscal sounds good it may help you..i also take cod liver oil too as i heard its good for inflammation and helps hair growth as it has vitamin D and as we don't have much sun here in UK then vit D supplement is needed.

Garnetgem
July 22nd, 2016, 07:05 AM
I haven't got anything on my scalp, it just looks shiny where my parting is but that's all. It is tender/warm where the thinning is but I can't see anything else. Someone in Lush told me that I had a dry scalp hence why it was irritated but if it's shiny how can that be? Or was it shiny because of the moisturising shampoo etc I was using. And no hairdresser has said anything about my scalp. In fact a hairdresser told me not to worry about it otherwise I would make it worse! How can the docs take no notice when you lost your hip length hair, especially in that amount of time? That's awful, you would, understandably, be devastated. I'm starting to think that if the doctors don't think it's life threatening they aren't interested, but like you say it really knocks you. I'm a little hopeful today as I used some Pantene volume shampoo - thanks Lapushka - and there was hardly any hair in the shower this morning. Am really hoping it's the start of good things x

Sounds inflamed so clearly something is irritating your scalp and inflammation alone can cause hair to come out..also if you tie it in a certain way it can cause irritation too,hairdressers said mine was fine too but it was far from fine..they say don't worry or we make it worse but how can a person not worry when hair comes out and thins its stressful ordeal,ah Pantene i use classic clean pantene as my hair likes silicones i think the volume one has no cones i am still learning about this cones stuff..but good to hear hardly any hair in the shower.

lapushka
July 22nd, 2016, 07:10 AM
Sounds inflamed so clearly something is irritating your scalp and inflammation alone can cause hair to come out..also if you tie it in a certain way it can cause irritation too,hairdressers said mine was fine too but it was far from fine..they say don't worry or we make it worse but how can a person not worry when hair comes out and thins its stressful ordeal,ah Pantene i use classic clean pantene as my hair likes silicones i think the volume one has no cones i am still learning about this cones stuff..but good to hear hardly any hair in the shower.

The volume one has no silicones.
Pantene Aqua Light has no silicones.

Which is why I suggested them. ;) :)

Garnetgem
July 22nd, 2016, 07:13 AM
The volume one has no silicones.
Pantene Aqua Light has no silicones.

Which is why I suggested them. ;) :)

Ah i see i tried no cones before (Herbal essences) and it made me shed lots of hair in shower,classic clean pantene is fine but makes hair go oily quicker and flat so still looking for a shampoo that suits!

Flossiebell
July 22nd, 2016, 07:41 AM
I will keep the info re the viviscal on the back burner for now. I am wary of taking tablets as years ago I took some diet pills (Adios) and that was what started my hair fall I am sure. It has never recovered since. Maybe it was a coincidence but I think I'll just try the shampoo for now and see how I get on 🙂

lapushka
July 22nd, 2016, 08:18 AM
Ah i see i tried no cones before (Herbal essences) and it made me shed lots of hair in shower,classic clean pantene is fine but makes hair go oily quicker and flat so still looking for a shampoo that suits!

The volume one is nothing like the classic one (silicones, and heavy). It is much lighter, much more like a good clarifying shampoo should be.

Garnetgem
July 22nd, 2016, 09:18 AM
The volume one is nothing like the classic one (silicones, and heavy). It is much lighter, much more like a good clarifying shampoo should be.

I see i have a quick question is Pantene clarifying shampoo cone free? its just i am fine with that and my hair and scalp are happy but i obviously cannot use it as a main shampoo.

turtlelover
July 22nd, 2016, 09:22 AM
I see i have a quick question is Pantene clarifying shampoo cone free? its just i am fine with that and my hair and scalp are happy but i obviously cannot use it as a main shampoo.

It might work fine as a main shampoo if you diluted it.

diddiedaisy
July 22nd, 2016, 09:31 AM
Hopefully changing shampoos will be your answer, sometimes it is the simple things. I tried for two years before I took the plunge with viviscal, but I had already tried everything else. Good luck with your journey :)

Flossiebell
July 22nd, 2016, 09:45 AM
Hopefully changing shampoos will be your answer, sometimes it is the simple things. I tried for two years before I took the plunge with viviscal, but I had already tried everything else. Good luck with your journey :)

Thank you diddiedaisy, good luck to you too 🙂

meteor
July 22nd, 2016, 09:48 AM
Oh yes, definitely switch up the products if you have doubts about them. Anything clarifying should be good in this case, e.g. Neutrogena Anti-Residue, Joico Clarify, etc... Maybe some ingredient(s) in the products you've been using caused a reaction, but I think one would typically have some itch or maybe redness or some other symptoms to go along with shedding in that case, no? :hmm:


However, and I really hate to sound alarmist, but a few things you mentioned just make me worried that it could be more than that: shiny scalp areas, visible patches, loss of hip length... Hairloss could be symptomatic of so many different problems (e.g. hypothyroid, iron deficiency anemia, etc), and one needs to address the underlying issue, and once it's solved and health gets better, hair will follow, too. :)
By the way, do you know if you have in your family any history of early Androgenetic Alopecia (a.k.a. Male/Female Pattern Baldness)? If it turns out to be something like that, the protocol is to introduce DHT-controlling shampoos/treatments, for example Minoxidil (Rogaine), Ketoconazole (e.g. Nizoral, Regenepure DR.), etc.
I've listed some studies on it here: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=136845&p=3192491&viewfull=1#post3192491 and http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=136845&p=3192503&viewfull=1#post3192503 And there are some really helpful forums dedicated specifically to hairloss, for example, HairLossTalk and BaldTruthTalk, as well as a good thread on TLHC on thinning where LHC-ers share what worked and what didn't: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=134545


Terribly sorry to hear about how patients are brushed off there! :grouphug: It's just not right. :nono: And I sure hope there will be more funding in the system! :pray: If this doctor is not taking you seriously, I'd go to another one. But it's critical to list *all* your symptoms and problems - to give them enough details to start building hypotheses of what could be wrong and want needs to be tested. Doctors used to brush me off, too, until I started fainting randomly, and it turned out I was very anemic. I should have complained early on about feeling weak and tired, etc. Basically, even if you lose some weight or feel different, feel something like discomfort, weakness, tiredness, shortness of breath, cold at night, random pains, headaches,... anything at all - things that people often discount... - you should still mention all that to your doctor anyway, just in case - hopefully, they'll do bloodwork for you finally. Also, I'd even talk to them about UV rays giving scalp burns, for example, as was mentioned up-thread. (That could be a skin cancer risk that they shouldn't ignore so easily.)


In a nutshell:

- I'd try and see a doctor again ASAP and give details of *all* your symptoms, problems, discomfort, whether it has anything to do with hair or not. Don't be shy, mention anything that bothers you and talk about family history, too, if relevant.

- In the meantime, I'd use something clarifying or, even better, a ketoconazole-based shampoo like Nizoral (it is both anti-fungal - which is great if turns out that some skin condition is causing shedding, e.g. SD, and it's also been shown in studies to help a bit with AGA).

Best of luck! I really hope your hair will regrow in its full glory! :pray:

lapushka
July 23rd, 2016, 05:35 AM
I see i have a quick question is Pantene clarifying shampoo cone free? its just i am fine with that and my hair and scalp are happy but i obviously cannot use it as a main shampoo.

The one I have (see through bottle, navy cap) is, but there are other variations out there and I'm not sure about those. What bottle do you have?

lapushka
July 23rd, 2016, 05:38 AM
Terribly sorry to hear about how patients are brushed off there! :grouphug: It's just not right. :nono: And I sure hope there will be more funding in the system! :pray: If this doctor is not taking you seriously, I'd go to another one. But it's critical to list *all* your symptoms and problems - to give them enough details to start building hypotheses of what could be wrong and want needs to be tested. Doctors used to brush me off, too, until I started fainting randomly, and it turned out I was very anemic. I should have complained early on about feeling weak and tired, etc. Basically, even if you lose some weight or feel different, feel something like discomfort, weakness, tiredness, shortness of breath, cold at night, random pains, headaches,... anything at all - things that people often discount... - you should still mention all that to your doctor anyway, just in case - hopefully, they'll do bloodwork for you finally. Also, I'd even talk to them about UV rays giving scalp burns, for example, as was mentioned up-thread. (That could be a skin cancer risk that they shouldn't ignore so easily.)

If there's more going on besides your hair, definitely state all the problems and issues. And go until someone takes your problem seriously! Don't just give up and start "experimenting" on your own. Not until you at the very least get bloodwork done. I'd fight for that, if I were you. :flower:

Garnetgem
July 23rd, 2016, 06:31 AM
The one I have (see through bottle, navy cap) is, but there are other variations out there and I'm not sure about those. What bottle do you have?

Mine is in a clear bottle and has a gold cap.

lapushka
July 23rd, 2016, 06:54 AM
Mine is in a clear bottle and has a gold cap.

Never seen that bottle before. Maybe you can look up the ingredients online? :)