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View Full Version : Olaplex/Deep Conditioning vs. Henna/Indigo :/



MINAKO
May 19th, 2016, 06:06 PM
Hi my fellow long hairs!!

This isn't a big problem, but i would like to know if anyone expirienced severe bleeding of their henna or henndigo color suddenly happening after MONTHS. After a few washes it's usually more or less solid. The indigo does fade initially but then my washing water is pretty much uncolored. However, since using olaplex as a standalone treatment my hair got alot softer and smoother (aka did not increase in porosity, rather the opposite), but also my color is coming out like a MF :confused:...
like i have orange stained hands and the water is alot more orangey brown. I heard this in combination with too much oil. I'd rather keep using both. Any suggestions on how i can stop the bleeding. Do i need to adjust my mix a certain way or add a certain thing to my routine. I'm lazy with applications so any suggestion would help.

Adorkable One
May 20th, 2016, 04:17 AM
I don't imagine this being caused by the Olaplex. Olaplex isn't a conditioner. I suppose a change in hair texture could cause dye to escape. But Henna is pretty permanent.

Beborani
May 20th, 2016, 09:23 AM
Is olaplex competing for the same site as henna and displacing it? Interesting question but I doubt you will get an answer to this question anywhere.

MINAKO
May 20th, 2016, 09:40 AM
Yes i didn't mean to say that Olaplex and deep conditioner are the same but rather which ingredient in either of the two could cause the bleeding and how to possible counteract it.
Beborani i think it's possible that the spaces in hair for henna to adhere would be reduced as the bonds are stronger and closer to each other. Most of the time people don't use it with darker shades, let alone herbal dye. Just trying to find out if quicker fading colour is a general problem for those who used the product.
There is still plenty of henna in my hair, indigo not so much. As i said, my hands and fingernails get a slight stain if i touch my hair for linger which never happened to me before, especially since the last time i dyed was in november. Inly used deposit colors since then (but in blue to make up for the quicker fading indigo, so this is not the origin of the stains since its very orange on my hands)

meteor
May 20th, 2016, 10:05 AM
I would ask people at Olaplex if maybe they know what could cause this? :hmm:

I think it's possibly a similar situation to things like: direct dyes taking better on clarified, chelated, stripped hair vs. hair covered with heavy products, cony conditioners, or conditioner taking better on clarified hair vs. over old build-up... Could be a pH issue... But I really don't know. I hope you'll get your answers though! :D

MINAKO
May 21st, 2016, 04:55 PM
I didn't bother to enail them directly because i don't wxpect them to know anything about herbal dyes in the first place, at least not more than people on here would. I could understand if i redyed my hair an it didn't take that time AFTER using the olaplex, but the olaplex making old color bleed like crazy was quite odd to me. However i was contemplating if i should just lay off the henna and keep using pravana chromasilk instead but not dilluted as a refresh like i usually would. I don't thing i get that much dramatic conditioning out of the henna anymore anyways so i might as well switch.

Nightshade
May 21st, 2016, 05:14 PM
Is olaplex competing for the same site as henna and displacing it? Interesting question but I doubt you will get an answer to this question anywhere.

Henna binds to the keratin in your hair; I'd imagine if Olaplex is wonking with the structure of hair, it could cause it to bleed.

MINAKO
May 22nd, 2016, 01:03 PM
Thank you nightshade, it would make sense that the keratin in the shaft basically disconnects from the henna in favor to the olaplex as it forms additional bonds. The palm of my hands keeps getting orange but there are many layers of super strong henna in my hair so i guess i just have to keep washing my hands and be more careful with white clothing if i want to continue using both.

Beborani
May 22nd, 2016, 08:17 PM
Yes nightshade and minako. I guess my post was too cryptic without actually saying much--simplyfying science is not my forte sadly. Henna binds to the protein in your hair to form what is called a Schiff's base but though we consider henna to be permanent under normal conditions this reaction is reversible under the right conditions and perhaps olaplex provides that environment. But you are right Minako even those people at olaplex will not be able to give you an answer without doing a lot of work (theoretical and lab) and since it is not meant for hennaed hair, they are not required to troubleshoot either.

MINAKO
May 22nd, 2016, 08:45 PM
Beborani, yes i'm sure they would just email me a very generic statement back on how they cannot guarantee compatibilty of these two. However maybe this could be helpful someday for those of us eho are looking to return to their natural color. As it looks not my hair itself hasn't changed much but it might be different and more noticeable on lighter levels of color.

Zebra Fish
May 25th, 2016, 08:41 AM
May I ask how did you use olaplex? I know it is intended to he used during bleaching and after (nr 1 and 2). Did you just use nr 2 or how else? I'm just curious, no harm intended.

Yarrow
May 25th, 2016, 12:28 PM
this might help:
henna (http://cthuliz.com/blog/?p=2624) has michael reaction

Lawsone, a relatively small molecule, then migrates to the cortex of the hair strand to coat the keratin via a Michaels’ reaction. You’ll note this reaction happens quite quickly, making it a somewhat annoying ordeal to remove henna stains from skin, even after only a few seconds of exposure.

Lawsone’s affinity for keratin is intense.

If you’re really curious, you can get a sense of the numerous reactions by drawing out a few of the amino acids (here’s an older article with a list) and lawsone. You’ll note that there are many locations at which a Michaels’ reaction can occur. For your reference, common attacking nucleophiles (a.k.a. Michael donors) include lithium dialkyl cuprates, enamines, ß-diketones, ß-keto esters, ß-keto nitriles, and alpha-nitro ketones, while common electrophiles (a.k.a. Michael acceptors, the alpha,ß-unsaturated carbonyl compounds) include conjugated aldehydes, conjugated ketones, conjugated esters, conjugated amides, conjugated nitriles, and nitroethylenes.
olaplex (http://www.labmuffin.com/2015/04/how-does-olaplex-hair-treatment-work) has a michael reaction

has a surprising amount of detail into the mechanism of how it’s supposed to work. The short story is, the two ends of bis-aminopropyl diglycol dimaleate form bonds with the sulfurs, making an artificial, extended disulfide bridge. More specifically, the “dimaleate” part of bis-aminopropyl diglycol dimaleate are what’s known as Michael acceptors. These react with an SH group each in a Michael reaction to form covalent bonds like so:

olaplex-mechanismAnd so a new disulfide link is formed between the two sulfurs, making the hair stronger. This happens pretty quickly – unlike with hair straightening and perming, these reactions will happen faster than the peroxide capping reaction, meaning hair damage during colouring is drastically reduced. Pretty cool, huh?

Beborani
May 25th, 2016, 01:18 PM
Yarrow nice links. It doesn't fully explain why olaplex should displace henna as it acts on sulfide linkage wheareas henna bind to the amide group but the two may end up competing in some sites which is why she sees only some loss of henna.

MINAKO
May 26th, 2016, 02:21 AM
Yarrow, thanks for the links. Although i only understand the chemistry in it's basics i guessed it must be the two competing along those lines and it somewhat seems to make sense. I guess i just gotta suck it up and either throw on henna more frequently or stick to pravana. It probably affected my color by like 10-20% cause even tho my hands get stained it doesn't transfer as bad on clothes, towels or pillows. I suppose oiling is what helps the released henna come out. I did oil before and it never happened that way so it cant be the oil alone.

Zebrafish, i mix the no.1 with destilled water and apply that to dry hair until its saturated and almost wet but not drippy, that massage and comb that in, leave it for 10-15 minutes and apply the no.2 on top of that. I just let it sit over night and apply my pre poo oil the next morning, let that sit for an hour and wash. Every six weeks is way enough for me. It doesn't make a dramatic difference to all of my hair but in the lower parts that are in good condition but still its not the same like the hair around chinlength of course... i can definitely feel them getting smoother and softer

MINAKO
June 27th, 2016, 09:34 AM
Update: my color bleeding completely stopped since flatironing my hair last week. There was absolutely nothing on my hands, towels, clothes or in the water anymore. Probably not so good of a tip for preserving the color in general as i read heat can turn henna brown but for me it wouldn't really matter anyways.