Silk protein for hair?

[MariaPon]

Hi everyone, some time ago I saw a hair mask recipe that included silk protein among other things, and I was wondering what would be the use of it? Is it only good to use as a "put on and then wash out" product or can I add it to my mister bottle/shampoo/conditioner and actually have it be beneficial?
I'm asking mainly because while trying to understand the function of proteins in hair care products, I saw both good ("hair repair", "fill in hair") and bad ("dehydrating", "moisture blocking") things said about protein treatments nad I have to say I'm confused. So if anyone could clarify, that would be great! :o

[ChloeDharma]

It's quite common for people to add a little of their rinse out conditioner to their mister bottle and use it as a leave in. I used to do this when growing out chemical damaged curly hair and it worked very well. You could just try it and see if it works? I'm afraid I don't really know much about silk protein but I presume it's rather good if your hair likes protein generally.

[MariaPon]

It's quite common for people to add a little of their rinse out conditioner to their mister bottle and use it as a leave in.

Well yes, conditioner. But I'm just not sure how protein on its own behaves as a product in leave in, maybe it does weird things that no one wants happening :confused:

[lapushka]

I just got an Andrélon leave-in (Dutch brand) with Keratin. I can take a tiny bit of protein, and a tiny bit of protein is good, as long as you follow up with moisture once in a while, and clarify once in a while. It coats not unlike silicones do if you don't "need" them (due to bleached or dyed hair). At least, that's what I "think". Don't quote me on that. ;)

[meteor]

Hydrolyzed silk protein is one of the smaller proteins (for more on this, check this table: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6sUkULijJ1g/Un1uSLvjWzI/AAAAAAAAArI/mPnfHAo0N8g/s1600/amino_acids_table.jpg), and it can work for a wide range of hair types. The primary function is hydration and conditioning.
I like silk and keratin proteins the most, personally, and I think, in moderation, they can work for many people.
Generally speaking, proteins can fill in cracks, manage porosity (important for damaged, porous hair), coat hair for more rigidity (can be important for fine hair and for hair that doesn't hold shapes/styles easily). But, of course, a lot depends on individual hair and its needs, concentration and specific product formulation, molecular weight of the proteins, how often it's used, whether or not it's followed up with moisture treatment, your preference for how the hair should feel (more soft and malleable or more firm)...
And yes, proteins can even work for hydration, they are in the film-forming humectants (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/07/film-forming-humectants-what-they-are.html) category. But it's still a good idea to follow up with a moisture treatment (e.g. SMT, oils+conditioner) after or incorporate it into the protein treatment and not to overdo on protein.

Here are two great articles on protein:
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2015/10/protein-101-lots-of-basic-information.html
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/09/more-about-protein.html

[Anje]

And then there's me. I had the most awful protein-overload buildup from a conditioner where the 13th (!!!) ingredient was "silk protein amino acids". About a half-bottle into CO washing with this, many people's Holy Grail CO condish, my hair was tangling with itself faster than I could detangle it in a detangling session. It took about a week of daily SMTs (with no-protein products) to get back to normal.

My hair has a special and likely unique hatred of silk protein, I guess.

[MariaPon]

where the 13th (!!!) ingredient was "silk protein amino acids".

I must be way too much of a noob- is that a significant location on the list? I mean, as far as I know the higher the content the higher on the list it'll be, but 13th seems... Far down, I guess?

Also, is there a specific (as specific as a personal thing can get) amount that should be used? At least in terms of "3 drops per liter" vs. "5 tbsp per liter"?

[samanthaa]

I must be way too much of a noob- is that a significant location on the list? I mean, as far as I know the higher the content the higher on the list it'll be, but 13th seems... Far down, I guess?

Also, is there a specific (as specific as a personal thing can get) amount that should be used? At least in terms of "3 drops per liter" vs. "5 tbsp per liter"?

The lower on the list, the less there is of it in the product. I think Anje's point was that it was pretty low down on the list and yet it still affected her hair so dramatically.

After experimenting with protein-free and protein-containing conditioners, I have found that I fall into the category of "fine hair and for hair that doesn't hold shapes/styles easily," as meteor put it. My hair seems to love protein. I went back to using my protein-containing conditioner and also added in a protein-containing leave-in. I'll have to check if silk protein is used at all (I can't remember which protein my brand uses). I find that my hair just doesn't like to de-tangle with a protein-free conditioner (or at least any of the SheaMoisture protein-free conditioners, as I prefer a more natural conditioner).

[Anje]

The lower on the list, the less there is of it in the product. I think Anje's point was that it was pretty low down on the list and yet it still affected her hair so dramatically.

After experimenting with protein-free and protein-containing conditioners, I have found that I fall into the category of "fine hair and for hair that doesn't hold shapes/styles easily," as meteor put it. My hair seems to love protein. I went back to using my protein-containing conditioner and also added in a protein-containing leave-in. I'll have to check if silk protein is used at all (I can't remember which protein my brand uses). I find that my hair just doesn't like to de-tangle with a protein-free conditioner (or at least any of the SheaMoisture protein-free conditioners, as I prefer a more natural conditioner).
Yeah, pretty much. At most, it could be like 7% of the total, and it's probably way less than that.

My hair's pretty fine, but it has definite and negative opinions about protein! Don't let that deter you from trying it, of course. How your hair reacts is what matters.

[samanthaa]

Yeah, pretty much. At most, it could be like 7% of the total, and it's probably way less than that.

I would be wrong, but aren't proteins always pretty low on the list? Meaning you don't really need a lot of it to get an effect? I've never seen a protein in the first, I don't know, five ingredients, for example.

[lapushka]

I would be wrong, but aren't proteins always pretty low on the list? Meaning you don't really need a lot of it to get an effect? I've never seen a protein in the first, I don't know, five ingredients, for example.

I had a Syoss conditioner that had proteins pretty high on the list - it was a keratin conditioner. Same goes for an old (don't have it anymore) Guhl conditioner. My hair didn't protest, as far as I remember. Was a bit drier than usual, but nothing more terrible than that.

[samanthaa]

I had a Syoss conditioner that had proteins pretty high on the list - it was a keratin conditioner. Same goes for an old (don't have it anymore) Guhl conditioner. My hair didn't protest, as far as I remember. Was a bit drier than usual, but nothing more terrible than that.

Ah, yes, I'm sure conditioners labeled as "keratin" or "protein" have those ingredients higher on the list. I was mostly referring to conditioners that aren't labelled as such but do contain protein. At least the ones I've used have always had protein low(er) on the list.

[meteor]

I would be wrong, but aren't proteins always pretty low on the list? Meaning you don't really need a lot of it to get an effect? I've never seen a protein in the first, I don't know, five ingredients, for example.

It can be way higher than that. :D

E.g. Mega-Tek EQyss Pet Rebuilder (definitely one of my favorite conditioners ever, I found it very moisturizing and strengthening even on virgin hair, supposed to work like Ovation Cell Therapy (LHC thread on this: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=15952), but I think that Mega-Tek version has been hard to find and it's pretty expensive):

Ingredients: Deionized water, hydrolyzed keratin protein, stearalkonium chloride, glyceryl stearate, marine protein, peg 40, panthenal, dimethicone copolyol, magnesium citrate, allantoin, amino acids, methylparaben, mucopoly-saccharides, propylparaben, imidazolidinyl urea, fragrance (http://www.oliviairene.com/2013/04/mega-tek-review-me
ga-tek-vs-ovation.html)

Aphogee 2-Step (ER type rescue for very processed, damaged hair):

Ingredients: Deionized Water, Hydrolyzed Animal Protein, Magnesium Sulfate, Citric Acid, Ethylene Urea, Dimethylol Urea, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Magnesium Carbonate, DMDM Hydantoin, Fragrance (http://www.curlynikki.com/2012/02/aphogee-two-step-treatment-review.html)

DIY gelatin mask (concentrations up to DIY-er) : http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/04/gelatin-protein-treatment-recipe-update.html

In fact, if hydrolyzed proteins are very low on the ingredients list, I don't even consider the protein to be necessarily the driver behind the overall performance and feel of the product. I've tried a ton of products that were drying to my hair, but if protein is listed after the first 5-7 ingredients, well, I'm definitely going to check the first ingredients as possible culprits first before worrying about protein. I do think a lot depends on the specific formulation. :)

[Anje]

Ah, here it is. Suave Tropical Coconut, which is a lot of people's preferred CO conditioner. XD
Water (Aqua), Cetyl Alcohol, Stearamidopropyl Diethylamine, Lactic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Fragrance (Parfum), Disodium EDTA, PeG-150 Distearate, 2-Bromo-2-Nitropropane-1,3-Diol, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Propylene Gylcol, Tocopheryl Acetate [Vitamin E Acetate], Silk Amino Acids, Honey, Nettle (Urtica Dioica) Extract, Rosemary (Rosemarinus Officinalis) Extract, Coconut (Cocos Nucifera) Fruit Extract.

14th ingredient, and behind the preservatives. :P My hair is silly.

[MariaPon]

Ah, here it is. Suave Tropical Coconut, which is a lot of people's preferred CO conditioner. XD
Water (Aqua), Cetyl Alcohol, Stearamidopropyl Diethylamine, Lactic Acid, Potassium Chloride, Fragrance (Parfum), Disodium EDTA, PeG-150 Distearate, 2-Bromo-2-Nitropropane-1,3-Diol, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Propylene Gylcol, Tocopheryl Acetate [Vitamin E Acetate], Silk Amino Acids, Honey, Nettle (Urtica Dioica) Extract, Rosemary (Rosemarinus Officinalis) Extract, Coconut (Cocos Nucifera) Fruit Extract.

14th ingredient, and behind the preservatives. :P My hair is silly.

Well maybe there was something else your hair didn't like, who knows :)
In any case, I suppose I'll make adding protein to my shampoo/conditioner as the next experiment on the list to figure out what my hair likes :)

Any suggestions on how to use it?

[Anje]

Well maybe there was something else your hair didn't like, who knows :)
In any case, I suppose I'll make adding protein to my shampoo/conditioner as the next experiment on the list to figure out what my hair likes :)

Any suggestions on how to use it?

Could be. What else do you see in there that would cause protein overload symptoms?

[MariaPon]

Could be. What else do you see in there that would cause protein overload symptoms?

I honestly have no clue whatsoever :shrug: Who knows, maybe one day we'll find out that x, y and z cause symptoms that resemble other things :confused:

[meteor]

Well maybe there was something else your hair didn't like, who knows :)
In any case, I suppose I'll make adding protein to my shampoo/conditioner as the next experiment on the list to figure out what my hair likes :)

Any suggestions on how to use it?

You might want to check out Haartraum's protein DIY leave-in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6wy25IVdLo
Sorry, it's in German, but here is her recipe (obviously, it takes some experimentation to find the best fit) ;) :
30 ml of rosewater
30 drops of silk protein
15 drops of keratin
And there are many, many great recipes online.


I honestly have no clue whatsoever :shrug: Who knows, maybe one day we'll find out that x, y and z cause symptoms that resemble other things :confused:

Yes, that's possible. :agree: For example, some people report that their hair gets protein overload symptoms from coconut oil (while coconut oil is 100% fat and 0% protein). That dryness and coated feeling, tangle-prone hair... could by a type of build-up - protein, sure, but many other things can cause that effect, too. It's not a unique protein problem IMHO. :flower: To give a more personal example, I get this from many tea rinses (esp. black and green tea), no idea why... could be the tannins... but I really don't know...

[MariaPon]

You might want to check out Haartraum's protein DIY leave-in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6wy25IVdLo
Sorry, it's in German, but here is her recipe (obviously, it takes some experimentation to find the best fit) ;) :
30 ml of rosewater
30 drops of silk protein
15 drops of keratin
And there are many, many great recipes online.



Yes, that's possible. :agree: For example, some people report that their hair gets protein overload symptoms from coconut oil (while coconut oil is 100% fat and 0% protein). That dryness and coated feeling, tangle-prone hair... could by a type of build-up - protein, sure, but many other things can cause that effect, too. It's not a unique protein problem IMHO. :flower: To give a more personal example, I get this from many tea rinses (esp. black and green tea), no idea why... could be the tannins... but I really don't know...

ooh that recipe looks interesting, will have to try it out, thanks! :)

And that's exactly what I meant... My hair also reacts differently to things depending on the time of year etc... So who knows :P