How are buns better than ponytails?

[SparrowWings]

I know one of the biggest complaints/warnings people have about ponytails is their potential to cause hair loss around the edges.* The only reason I've seen for why this would happen is because the ponytail is so tight it's actually pulling the hair out, if slowly.

I also know I've seen many suggestions of buns being much gentler in that regard, and that they should be preferred over ponytails or other pulled-back styles to reduce stress.

This sounds great in theory. But in reality, is it any different? Every bun I've ever done has felt exactly the same around the edges as a ponytail. And when you think about it, that makes sense -- no matter how you secure the end result, you're still pulling all of the hair back to a single starting point. Ponytails get held by an elastic at the base. Buns get twisted, wrapped, whathaveyou around the base -- but there is still the base. So what makes the tension from an evenly distributed bun any better than that of an evenly distributed ponytail? Or any other non-poofy-fronted style, for that matter?

* ETA: The other major complaint I'm aware of being that pony tails don't protect the length, and since Nique1202 brought it up, I'll add the clarification that I'm not really asking about that part. I'm really wondering about the scalp-based differences.

[Nique1202]

It's not just about the tightness of a ponytail pulling at the outer edges (though that's one big factor), it's the fact that ponytails don't secure the ends so the length of the hair can still rub on things and get damaged (clothing, chairs, headrests, backpacks, etc.) AND elastics cause friction on the hair and damage over time, even if you use the no-metal ones, any thread or fabric can rub on the hair and cause damage if you wear it too often.

Ponytails also don't distribute the weight across the whole scalp well. Even though they pull the outer edges, they concentrate the weight on the spot where they're secured, whereas a well-secured bun has more give for the hair at the base to loosen up where it needs to for comfort.

[SparrowWings]

It's not just about the tightness of a ponytail pulling at the outer edges (though that's one big factor), it's the fact that ponytails don't secure the ends so the length of the hair can still rub on things and get damaged (clothing, chairs, headrests, backpacks, etc.) AND elastics cause friction on the hair and damage over time, even if you use the no-metal ones, any thread or fabric can rub on the hair and cause damage if you wear it too often.
I clarified the first post that I'm only really wondering about the scalp aspects, but it's good to have this here for completeness for anyone else who comes in wondering about it!


Ponytails also don't distribute the weight across the whole scalp well. Even though they pull the outer edges, they concentrate the weight on the spot where they're secured, whereas a well-secured bun has more give for the hair at the base to loosen up where it needs to for comfort.
This is where I get a bit confused. In my mind, a "well-secured" bun isn't moving or loosening, so the weight and pull are still on the base, and possibly even tighter and/or in other places as well. Otherwise the bun tends to fall apart. Is this another YMMV thing, or am I completely missing how to do buns, and need to learn a different method? It would seem like jabbing a stick through the middle (yes, including the basic first backwards, then through, grab scalp hair too, etc.) would be pretty straightforward, but if buns are supposed to result in less tension, universally, and they don't for me...? In fact, any bun that sticks out too far from my head tends to result in more discomfort (from weight, pulling, off-balance-ness) than a basic ponytail. It doesn't seem like that would be something unique to me, so where am I going wrong?

[rowie]

For scalp base differences I know that with buns it's not so concentrated into one area because the bun loosens out itself to alleviate any discomfort throughout the day and works with gravity. With an elastic ponytail style it keeps it confined to where you place the ponytail and fights gravity, and it doesn't give any wiggle room for the hair to adjust itself out throughout the day in my experience. I don't think my hair could of grown down to classic length if I always wore a ponytail but then again everyone's hair is different. If you have strong resilient hair that can handle abuse then of course elastics or any form of updos wouldn't be necessary, but how many people do you actually know have that type of hair that can be worn down always and grow down to extreme lengths without damage? I'd be safe to say those are the rare lucky few and is not common.

I think the biggest complaint that a ponytail style does not protect the overall length is a winner for me and also for me ponytails don't offer a wiggle room for the hair to adjust itself out is also a winning reason for me why I avoid them. However ponytails are a good option for emergency if you go out somewhere and your hair toy breaks and you needed something to confine your hair. Although a lot of my co workers confine their buns using only elastics so I can see why you bring up this question. In the non LHC world many people just confine their hair in elastics or buns secured with elastics which would be a no no for a long hair community it seems.

[Nadine <3]

When I used to wear pony tails all the tine, I had breakage all around where I put the elastic. It gave me weird layers, but buns have never done that. Buns are way more comfortable for me too, they don't give me a headache like a pony tail does.

[meteor]

Great question! :D I'm not going to talk about the length-protection differences (though they are big), since they were already covered, but even for scalp alone, the tension is so different when you start with a secured ponytail versus simple (no-ponytail) bunning.

When one sees pictures of buns, one can usually easily tell which ones started with a ponytail (the tension is tight and pulled back - e.g. this picture (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2EQW3WpVn24/hqdefault.jpg)), versus the simple no-pony buns (e.g this picture (http://isaetno.free.fr/Chignons/lazywrapbun.jpg)) because of that look of pulled-back edges with a pony.
The same scalp tension differences are there when you compare a braid that starts with a ponytail versus the one that doesn't (see picture (http://assets5.cutegirlshairstyles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/PullThroughBraidThumb.jpg)). I really think avoiding tight elastics is very helpful for avoiding mechanical damage.

I think that tight twisting or ponytailing the base can be problematic, and that's why I start all my buns with braids (that aren't too tight and never secured with elastics). For slippery hair, it may be hard to keep hair in a bun if it's not corralled by twisting/braiding/ponytailing, so I prefer a simple braid as the base.

[Deborah]

I can notice the difference in how a bun feels to wear compared to how a ponytail feels. There is such a big difference in that buns are way more comfortable compared to ponytails. My head always aches and feels sore after wearing a ponytail, but not so with a bun. Do you not notice this? In a bun the weight of the hair seems to be distributed much more evenly or something, while in a ponytail, the hair tends to pull at the hairline and at the spot where the ponytail is held in place. If you cannot feel this difference, maybe the buns you make are done too tightly.

[spidermom]

Ponytails swing around, are exposed to the elements, and people tend to tighten them by grabbing half the ponytail in each hand and pulling in 2 different directions, causing the elastic to roll against the hair cuticle toward the scalp, roughening and damaging the cuticle.

There are nontwisted buns and various ways to secure them (sticks, forks, clips, pins). I never start with a ponytail elastic, and if I twist my hair at all, I do it lightly. The friction of twisting causes damage; I learned that a long time ago. Anyway, depending on what I use and how I insert it/them, my bun can be supported at various places, not in one place like a ponytail elastic.

[SparrowWings]

When one sees pictures of buns, one can usually easily tell which ones started with a ponytail (the tension is tight and pulled back - e.g. this picture (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2EQW3WpVn24/hqdefault.jpg)), versus the simple no-pony buns (e.g this picture (http://isaetno.free.fr/Chignons/lazywrapbun.jpg)) because of that look of pulled-back edges with a pony.
The same scalp tension differences are there when you compare a braid that starts with a ponytail versus the one that doesn't...
I can't say I see a difference between the first two pictures, but I suspect that's more because of the angle and lighting of the second picture. I would agree that the first is definitely pulled back into a very (OUCH!) tight ponytail; I just can't see the second well enough to say either way. Braiding, though, yes, that absolutely makes a difference, even to me. That one was never a difference that I questioned.


I think that tight twisting or ponytailing the base can be problematic, and that's why I start all my buns with braids (that aren't too tight and never secured with elastics). For slippery hair, it may be hard to keep hair in a bun if it's not corralled by twisting/braiding/ponytailing, so I prefer a simple braid as the base.
Hmm. You may have inadvertently hit on the difference here. My non-ponytail buns do tend to include at least a tiny bit of twist at the base, else it explodes before I can even get it properly started. Having that slight twist is a requirement to give me something solid enough to hold on to while I deal with the length. Perhaps that's why they tend to feel almost identical to a ponytail? I've never tried working with an unsecured braid (those stay in my hair for about as long as it takes to leave my hand and fall down my back), but maybe I'll need to give it a shot next time, as an alternative.

To clarify, the tension (ponytail or me-bun) doesn't bother me, personally, but I am definitely curious about why I don't notice what's supposed to be such a huge difference between the two.

[SparrowWings]

Do you not notice this? ... If you cannot feel this difference, maybe the buns you make are done too tightly.
Right, that's the whole point of the thread. And also what I'm beginning to wonder, but my hair just doesn't stay if I make them looser. Leads to quite the conundrum!

[rowie]

...:scissors:

I think that tight twisting or ponytailing the base can be problematic, and that's why I start all my buns with braids (that aren't too tight and never secured with elastics). For slippery hair, it may be hard to keep hair in a bun if it's not corralled by twisting/braiding/ponytailing, so I prefer a simple braid as the base.

Brilliant suggestion with starting the base of a bun with a braid. I shall try this. I usually do a lazy wrap styles so I avoid twisting. I can see how a braided base can add a little more security for those of us with grippy type hairs. I like to wear my updo a little high so this maybe will be something I'll have to adapt to and figure out for my own hair type. I can also see how the braided base can give a place for a stick to be tangled into so that I won't have to redo my bun whenever I bun too loosely causing it to unravel on its own. Yes I've broken some wooden sticks because of loose bunning, but at least your technique does give an option for better ways for a stick to be secured safely in a bun. Thank you!

[MlleMC]

The main reason why I avoid doing too many ponytails is because I noticed a lot of short hairs that broke around the area where I put my elastic band. Also, buns are much less likely to hurt my scalp by the end of the day, which is most likely because the weight is better distributed.

[Anje]

Well, my buns aren't secured with a ponytail, for starters. That tight base isn't present. So that source of friction is completely lacking. When I wore frequent ponytails, I had many hairs that broke off where the elastic went, which are not broken off now that I'm not using one to support a bun or ponytail.

Secondly, when I secure buns, I'm using a stick or a clip that will cause the weight to be supported by a broad cross-section of the hair that's mostly under the bun; whereas when I secure a ponytail, the hairs from the hairline and mostly from the front going over the top of my head are what support the weight. This means that a bun is far less likely to cause scalp pain for me than a ponytail at the same position. I don't secure buns with elastics, but if I did I imagine this benefit would be negated.

Thirdly, the hairs in a ponytail are hanging down, where they can still get tangled and rubbed by various sources of friction. One of the biggest of these in my observation is people leaning against their hair when they're sitting down, and you can frequently observe people with their hair down who have splits and breakage starting right at the level where their hair contacts the chair back. Buns get the hair out of the way for this (though pulling hair over the shoulder works well too) and they don't gain additional tangles while the hair is contained in them.

ETA:

Hmm. You may have inadvertently hit on the difference here. My non-ponytail buns do tend to include at least a tiny bit of twist at the base, else it explodes before I can even get it properly started. Having that slight twist is a requirement to give me something solid enough to hold on to while I deal with the length. Perhaps that's why they tend to feel almost identical to a ponytail? I've never tried working with an unsecured braid (those stay in my hair for about as long as it takes to leave my hand and fall down my back), but maybe I'll need to give it a shot next time, as an alternative.
I need to twist mine a bit too, or else braid them, or the whole thing slides right off my head. The bun still feels pretty good after an hour or two, though, as long as it hasn't moved.

I definitely need to have my buns be fairly snug and close to the head to be comfortable. I can't really comment on ponytails much, because I really haven't worn them for the last ten years. I can confidently say I get way less breakage at ponytail level with bunning than I did with ponytails, which is why I had stopped wearing them in the first place.

[Llama]

Buns are waaaay more comfortable than ponytails. Ponytails hurt my scalp unless worn very low and loose.
I wore a ponytail not too long ago and it tangled my hair like crazy- worse than when I wear down and loose even. That never happens with buns.
Also, back in highschool I used to wear a ponytail every day and it caused a ton of breakage where the elastic would always be- so much that I had a whole short layer of hair created by it. Looked really damaged- I can still see that "breakage layer" in old pictures.

[Chromis]

I clarified the first post that I'm only really wondering about the scalp aspects, but it's good to have this here for completeness for anyone else who comes in wondering about it!


This is where I get a bit confused. In my mind, a "well-secured" bun isn't moving or loosening, so the weight and pull are still on the base, and possibly even tighter and/or in other places as well. Otherwise the bun tends to fall apart. Is this another YMMV thing, or am I completely missing how to do buns, and need to learn a different method? It would seem like jabbing a stick through the middle (yes, including the basic first backwards, then through, grab scalp hair too, etc.) would be pretty straightforward, but if buns are supposed to result in less tension, universally, and they don't for me...? In fact, any bun that sticks out too far from my head tends to result in more discomfort (from weight, pulling, off-balance-ness) than a basic ponytail. It doesn't seem like that would be something unique to me, so where am I going wrong?

It may well be that *buns* do not work for you, but I think more likely it is that you have not found the right bun for *you*

Cinnabuns made by the method you are currently using are how I started too, but I have since found that many other types of bun hold much better for me and there are a couple of really great non-bun updos too. Here's what has worked out for me and are nice easy options, in case any of this might help for you too:

- I don't get along well either with buns that stick out really far or are done too high up my scalp.
- For cinnabuns, I find they are more comfy done a little flatter and held with a multi-tined fork rather than thin sticks
- Centre-hold buns like the nautilus or the lazy wrap bun can be a little looser and still hold fine and these have much less tension, esp with a thicker stick
- Braided nautilus is really nice for holding super well. A thick single stick or a two-tined fork work nicely on it.
- I do often give my hair just a couple of twists so the base stays neat, but you don't need to twist up the length or make the twisting really tight. Keep it gentle!
- The log roll is my go to, number one updo for days when nothing feels right and it also quite dressy. I hold mine with a Ficcare and it stays like a rock.
- The folded braid is another non-bun updo with good weight distribution.
- The lazy wrap bun is probably the most comfortable of all and needs to twisting at all, but is not always the most absolute secure. I might have to redo it a time or two through the day, but again it is very comfortable and fast to do. It is also super easy with wet hair, should you want to put your hair up before it has finished drying. This one I can do even with sopping wet hair with a glass hairstick. (Normal people probably use acrylic.)

[Anje]

- The log roll is my go to, number one updo for days when nothing feels right and it also quite dressy. I hold mine with a Ficcare and it stays like a rock.
- The folded braid is another non-bun updo with good weight distribution.
I need to try to figure out what I'm doing wrong with these styles, because they pull uncomfortably even with a smaller ficcare. I'd like to make them work to change things up from my usual braid or lazy wrap.

[SparrowWings]

It may well be that *buns* do not work for you, but I think more likely it is that you have not found the right bun for *you*

Cinnabuns made by the method you are currently using are how I started too, but I have since found that many other types of bun hold much better for me and there are a couple of really great non-bun updos too. Here's what has worked out for me and are nice easy options, in case any of this might help for you too:

- I don't get along well either with buns that stick out really far or are done too high up my scalp.
- For cinnabuns, I find they are more comfy done a little flatter and held with a multi-tined fork rather than thin sticks
- Centre-hold buns like the nautilus or the lazy wrap bun can be a little looser and still hold fine and these have much less tension, esp with a thicker stick
- Braided nautilus is really nice for holding super well. A thick single stick or a two-tined fork work nicely on it.
- I do often give my hair just a couple of twists so the base stays neat, but you don't need to twist up the length or make the twisting really tight. Keep it gentle!
- The log roll is my go to, number one updo for days when nothing feels right and it also quite dressy. I hold mine with a Ficcare and it stays like a rock.
- The folded braid is another non-bun updo with good weight distribution.
- The lazy wrap bun is probably the most comfortable of all and needs to twisting at all, but is not always the most absolute secure. I might have to redo it a time or two through the day, but again it is very comfortable and fast to do. It is also super easy with wet hair, should you want to put your hair up before it has finished drying. This one I can do even with sopping wet hair with a glass hairstick. (Normal people probably use acrylic.)
To clarify, when you say "the method [I am] currently using" are you referring to my "jabbing a stick through the middle" comment, or something else? Because I've had some cinnabuns that felt great/weightless. But I've also had some that I took back down almost immediately. So I just want to make sure I correctly understand what we're talking about!

The other thing I'm reading out of this is that the selection of hair toy makes as much of a difference as the hair style itself. Correct? Either way, that's definitely something I intend to experiment with soon. Right now, I only have the one short-ish, skinny, aluminum stick, which is a great (read: unbreakable) learning stick, but a bit restrictive due to its length. I should be getting a pair of similar-length sticks, a much longer TT (which all seem to be quite a bit thicker than my current stick), and a 3-prong fork sometime this week. :mail: I'm looking forward to seeing how they all work in comparison!

I'll have to find a tutorial for a log roll, as well. I have no idea what it is, but it sounds like it would be a lot like a French twist, and I never could manage to make one of those look decent on me, so that could be interesting.

Oh, and while we're at it... Any suggestions for dealing with a semi-cowlick literally on the side of my head, a couple inches above my ear? To date, the only ways I've been able to mask it are to either leave my hair down completely (lets it go the way it wants, and the hair above is happy enough to go any direction at all), or to make all updos be at the very top of the back of my head (goes enough against the cowlick that it can be convinced to go mostly the right way, and be covered up for the rest). Anything in between, while more comfortable, results in a bald-looking strip on the side of my head from that stupid cowlick. Anything actually on top of my head makes all the rest of my hair fight the direction, and looks really odd on me as well.

[Arctic]

Cowlicks are, at least my cowlicks, best tames when the hair is very wet after washing. The trick is to help the hair dry in a direction you want, and to not to allow the cowlick growth pattern set.

I have two methods I use. 1) right after washing (and having my hair in a turban for 5 mins) I hang my head upside down, fluff my hair and rock my head gently back and forth. I do this at least 2-3 times during the drying period. This helps the cowlicks (which are at my crown) to dry in a way I like. 2) blowdrying. Again, start when hair is still very wet. Direct hair where the cowlick is, in all directions as you blowdry, this will "confuse" the growth pattern and it will relax.

Unfortunately these methods tend to re-set during sleeping, but since I wash almost daily it's not a huge problem.

[meteor]

Brilliant suggestion with starting the base of a bun with a braid. I shall try this. I usually do a lazy wrap styles so I avoid twisting. I can see how a braided base can add a little more security for those of us with grippy type hairs. I like to wear my updo a little high so this maybe will be something I'll have to adapt to and figure out for my own hair type. I can also see how the braided base can give a place for a stick to be tangled into so that I won't have to redo my bun whenever I bun too loosely causing it to unravel on its own. Yes I've broken some wooden sticks because of loose bunning, but at least your technique does give an option for better ways for a stick to be secured safely in a bun. Thank you!

Thanks so much, rowie! :flowers: I really hope it will work for you!
Since you mentioned that you like lazy wrap styles to avoid twisting (I do, too), just in case, I'll link a couple wrap bun videos that work great with a braid:
- Braided Lazy Wrap Bun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DKLqSQWZos
- Braided L-Infinity: (start with a braid) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fzn4gNWIVQ
- Alternate (and double-wrapped) L-Infinity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrEha6RhvxA
- Spidermom's bun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCvC_MU0To8
- modified LWB for long hair: variant 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNK0EPX7G1Q variant 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Sqx1uuCdE
- Chameleon bun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr1gwxHBgRM
I really hope some of these options might be helpful. :flower:

I should probably mention that the braid shouldn't be done tightly (since it needs to be not too rigid so you can manipulate it and push a stick/fork/other hairtoy through it), and because any braided bun is typically tighter than its unbraided cousin, it helps to use a single thin stick or a slim fork without too many prongs.
I really like braided buns also because they can keep the braid in pretty pristine, frizz-free condition for days unlike a hanging braid which goes frizzy within an hour on me. :lol:



- The folded braid is another non-bun updo with good weight distribution.

Chromis, how do you get this Folded Braid to hold? :) I love this style and how low-manipulation it is, but I run into problems when I try to secure it to my scalp area hair... :hmm: Do you start off with a smaller English braid or Dutch/French base or something else for added grip at scalp area? Do you use lots of claw-clips or something grippy like that for securing it? Is there any way to make this style work with simple sticks/forks? Thanks so much! :flower:


Hmm. You may have inadvertently hit on the difference here. My non-ponytail buns do tend to include at least a tiny bit of twist at the base, else it explodes before I can even get it properly started. Having that slight twist is a requirement to give me something solid enough to hold on to while I deal with the length. Perhaps that's why they tend to feel almost identical to a ponytail? I've never tried working with an unsecured braid (those stay in my hair for about as long as it takes to leave my hand and fall down my back), but maybe I'll need to give it a shot next time, as an alternative.

At significant length (enough to hold the top/nape area braided for a few seconds), I don't see any need for securing the end of a braid if the braid is getting bunned immediately anyway. :) Sure, the bottom 5-10 inches or so will unravel and be loose, but I really don't think it's a problem. These ends get tucked under anyway. :D With old ends, it's probably safe to leave a large-ish tassel anyway to avoid over-manipulating the most fragile part of the hair.

If you start with loose hair, a bit of twist is probably fine, as long as it's soft, not super-tight, but many of us do need to twist hair significantly for it not to unravel, if the hair is slippery. I can't really get any buns to stay without twisting or braiding, but loose braiding seems like a much safer alternative (bonus: the braid stays in well and can be used as a sleep braid at night, and then even reused in the morning).

I really hope you'll find easy, hair-friendly solutions that work beautifully for you soon! :cheer:

[AJNinami]

I'd say there's probably a lot of difference depending on how many times you wrap the tie as well (in reference to hair thickness). I only wrap mine twice, but since I'm a ii that's still pretty loose and my ponytail can start high and move all the way down to my nape within 5 hours. Mine is more to keep the hair together instead of on one spot on the scalp. I've never had problems with my scalp hurting.

[Chromis]

I need to try to figure out what I'm doing wrong with these styles, because they pull uncomfortably even with a smaller ficcare. I'd like to make them work to change things up from my usual braid or lazy wrap.

I use a large Ficcare for this, but I have also had reasonable luck with metal slides:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3483/3991321593_1163bfa43e.jpg
This shot is from when I was somewhere between classic and tailbone I think. The big key here is to place the Ficcare down low enough to grab plenty of hair. The top almost feels floppy at first, but it does really give quite a good hold.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7019/6520972665_f1da05160d.jpg
Slightly messier version with a slide. AGain, placement is really more in the middle. Too high and it slithers out or pulls.


To clarify, when you say "the method currently using" are you referring to my "jabbing a stick through the middle" comment, or something else? Because I've had some cinnabuns that felt great/weightless. But I've also had some that I took back down almost immediately. So I just want to make sure I correctly understand what we're talking about!

The other thing I'm reading out of this is that the selection of hair toy makes as much of a difference as the hair style itself. Correct? Either way, that's definitely something I intend to experiment with soon. Right now, I only have the one short-ish, skinny, aluminum stick, which is a great (read: unbreakable) learning stick, but a bit restrictive due to its length. I should be getting a pair of similar-length sticks, a much longer TT (which all seem to be quite a bit thicker than my current stick), and a 3-prong fork sometime this week. :mail: I'm looking forward to seeing how they all work in comparison!

I'll have to find a tutorial for a log roll, as well. I have no idea what it is, but it sounds like it would be a lot like a French twist, and I never could manage to make one of those look decent on me, so that could be interesting.

Oh, and while we're at it... Any suggestions for dealing with a semi-cowlick literally on the side of my head, a couple inches above my ear? To date, the only ways I've been able to mask it are to either leave my hair down completely (lets it go the way it wants, and the hair above is happy enough to go any direction at all), or to make all updos be at the very top of the back of my head (goes enough against the cowlick that it can be convinced to go mostly the right way, and be covered up for the rest). Anything in between, while more comfortable, results in a bald-looking strip on the side of my head from that stupid cowlick. Anything actually on top of my head makes all the rest of my hair fight the direction, and looks really odd on me as well.

So All of the above! I really meant if a given bun is not working for you. Many people come here already knowing how to make a cinnabun or a bee butt bun with a scrunchy/bobby pins, so sometimes it is just a matter of learning different styles. I used to use thin hairsticks a lot too, but have mainly moved away from them. I find the thicker ones much, much easier. Trying to use a stick that is too short is also pretty awkward! (Been there too, hehe)

The log roll is very much like a French Twist. You might not have enough hair for it yet, but I think I was able to do it by tailbone:

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5515/12209780664_251d9ddc07.jpg
It is so much easier though! Like you, I could never master the French Twist, but this is super simple. I think there are a few variations that will work for shorter hair too if it doesn't quite work. This one really is best with a Ficcare for me (and new ones in the current colours are much, much, much cheaper than the swap board just as an FYI in case the pricetags look scary around here)

Here's an older thread for some log roll links: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=91626

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7020/6520946161_0e81d56e94.jpg
I have also managed to do them with a slide though as well.

Another I forgot to mention is the Modified Ellingwoman. That one does not even need any sticks or clips at all and is marvellously balanced! It might not work with your cowlick though, hmmm.




Chromis, how do you get this Folded Braid to hold? :) I love this style and how low-manipulation it is, but I run into problems when I try to [I]secure it to my scalp area hair... :hmm: Do you start off with a smaller English braid or Dutch/French base or something else for added grip at scalp area? Do you use lots of claw-clips or something grippy like that for securing it? Is there any way to make this style work with simple sticks/forks? Thanks so much! :flower:


I clip in the middle as shown above, no other clips needed and start with just a standard English braid as the base. (Sorry, had to snip out a bunch since I was over my image limit!)

[lithostoic]

For me, I can never get a bun to be as tight to my head as a pony. I do not use a tie at the base when I do buns, I just twist it THEN tie it. Which is exponentially looser than a tie right at my scalp (which a pony would require).

[meteor]

Thank you so much for the photos and the detailed explanations, Chromis! :flowers: I can definitely see how a Ficcare or a clasp/barrette type of thing would work there to hold it all together.

And I totally agree about the Ellingwoman bun (simplified) (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_biroGTJ7A or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9W-kbWPSfQ), very compact and it holds like magic. :thumbsup:

The same principle of "hair holding hair" also works with the Amish Braided Bun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ms8ODU42k), Interlaced Dutch Braids (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG4MTltnX7M) and Woven Crown Braid (https://rapunzelsresource.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/luana-braids-woven-crown-variation/). (I should mention that it's important to be extra careful when pushing hair through "pockets" like that - there can be some potential for snagging/breakage. :flower:)

[Anje]

This shot is from when I was somewhere between classic and tailbone I think. The big key here is to place the Ficcare down low enough to grab plenty of hair. The top almost feels floppy at first, but it does really give quite a good hold.
...
Slightly messier version with a slide. AGain, placement is really more in the middle. Too high and it slithers out or pulls.
Huh. I wonder if I'm just clipping them too high up, then. More experimentation!

[SparrowWings]

@Arctic and cowlicks:
Yeah, mine tends to be less defined if I comb it back right out of the shower, and secure it in that position. But since I shower shortly before bed, and let it dry overnight, it doesn't always last much past my head hitting the pillow. :( And it certainly reverts back to super-strength as it gets dirtier. I've settled for just trying to ignore it and get the surrounding hair as close to it as possible to at least shrink the area that looks wrong, even if I can't hide/fix it entirely, but it sure is annoying that it won't just play nicely!

@Chromis:
That flower shirt is gorgeous! I've never particularly cared for the look of ficcares (never knew what they were called until coming here, but my grandmother wore them all the time); I like things to be more symmetrical most times. Something like the slide barrette could work, though, if/when I get one of them. Out of curiosity, how does a slide barrette compare to a flexi-8, especially if it's a homemade one with a separate stick? It looks like the barrette is probably inflexible, but the concept is otherwise the same. Do they work similarly? Or does the flexibility, however limited, of the flexi make that big of a difference?

@all:
I'll have to look through all these links during some downtime tomorrow; thanks!

[Chromis]

I've never tried a Flexi-8. I don't really like the look of them. You could likely use one to secure a log roll though. They might be a little too flexible, but I am sure the Flexi fans will know. They are legion!

And thank you! I love that style of shirt design, but they are pretty hard to find!

For a more symmetric clip, you might like the Ficcarismo more:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4006/4222219079_5ac4bdb495.jpg
Sorry for the rotten picture, I don't seem to have taken many of it! I love the hold of this one best of all, although I do wish it wasn't pale pink. They stopped making them for a while, but they are back now! The only catch is they only make small and medium now, but if you can fit a medium, you are in luck.

[SparrowWings]

Oh! I thought Ficcarisimo was just the nickname for the smaller sizes. I didn't realize it was actually another style altogether. After seeing the prices in the swap board, and knowing the original design, I didn't investigate any farther. But since you're saying they're both more affordable now, and have a better shape... I have no idea what size I would need, but it sounds like it might be worth checking after all. :)

[LadyCelestina]

No matter how tight I make my ponytail, it always loosens and slides down - buns hold rock solid in place all day. I think it's because the weight of the hair is distributed around the scalp and not hanging down like a ponytail. That's why it also tugs less on the roots. Also you typically don't twist the base as tightly as you would wrap an elastic (simply because it's not necessary). I think it feels the same for you because of length or maybe you make a ponytail lower on the head.

[SparrowWings]

- modified LWB for long hair: variant 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNK0EPX7G1Q
I'm going to have to try that one specifically. I did get a LWB to feel ok and hold reasonably at one point, but I distinctly remember thinking it was off-balance and off-center, and while it wasn't actually uncomfortable, it is a pet peeve that would have driven me crazy if I'd tried to keep it in all day. The extra wrapping on the second half sounds like the perfect solution.

Though, I don't recall catching that it is supposed to wrap fingers AND thumb, to make two loops, either, so that could have been the real problem. I'll definitely need to do some more experimenting.

[lapushka]

This sounds great in theory. But in reality, is it any different? Every bun I've ever done has felt exactly the same around the edges as a ponytail. And when you think about it, that makes sense -- no matter how you secure the end result, you're still pulling all of the hair back to a single starting point. Ponytails get held by an elastic at the base. Buns get twisted, wrapped, whathaveyou around the base -- but there is still the base. So what makes the tension from an evenly distributed bun any better than that of an evenly distributed ponytail? Or any other non-poofy-fronted style, for that matter?


I think buns have less tension on the hair, because you gather it loosely in your hand then lightly twist it up and put a fork / sticks through it. Ponytails are much tighter due to the elastic (that band really pulls). I know some people who ponytail first, then bun, and if that's not done right (too tight), then that can be an issue as well.

[reilly0167]

I tried posting earlier but my phone is acting silly, so if there's a double post (even though I checked) I apologize. I like putting my hair in a bun, 1. Its comfortable 2. I feel it protects my ends from exposing to damage of some sort and 3. It's great to wear when I do oiling and I don't walk around greasy and stringy.

[AutobotsAttack]

Great question! :D I'm not going to talk about the length-protection differences (though they are big), since they were already covered, but even for scalp alone, the tension is so different when you start with a secured ponytail versus simple (no-ponytail) bunning.

When one sees pictures of buns, one can usually easily tell which ones started with a ponytail (the tension is tight and pulled back - e.g. this picture (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/2EQW3WpVn24/hqdefault.jpg)), versus the simple no-pony buns (e.g this picture (http://isaetno.free.fr/Chignons/lazywrapbun.jpg)) because of that look of pulled-back edges with a pony.
The same scalp tension differences are there when you compare a braid that starts with a ponytail versus the one that doesn't (see picture (http://assets5.cutegirlshairstyles.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/PullThroughBraidThumb.jpg)). I really think avoiding tight elastics is very helpful for avoiding mechanical damage.

I think that tight twisting or ponytailing the base can be problematic, and that's why I start all my buns with braids (that aren't too tight and never secured with elastics). For slippery hair, it may be hard to keep hair in a bun if it's not corralled by twisting/braiding/ponytailing, so I prefer a simple braid as the base.

I definitely agree here with meteor. I'm not sure if she said this already, but how I see it is, with a ponytail there is the fact that since the hair is laying down or being pulled down by gravity it creates more tension at the scalp, which can be why some people, including myself, get headaches. Whereas if you have a bun, and its not pulled to tightly, there isn't really any hair hanging down that gravity can pull on. (Even with loose ponies there are some women who still get head pains just from the sheer weight of their hair). Not to say that buns cant cause head pain, but in a general sense of the matter, buns make it to where the head is evenly supporting all the weight of the hair, and there is no one portion of hair that is deemed "heavier" than the rest. However if you are having trouble keeping the buns up, you can always do Gibson tucks, or different variations of it. Just google a view tutorials, or search the forums on this site (they have some really good ones). tucks tend to be mainly just a series of rolling/twisting the hair underneath itself. I prefer doing tucks, a lot more than buns, because my hair is so fine, and slippy some days that my buns wont stay either.

Hope this helps :)

[rowie]

I've never tried a Flexi-8. I don't really like the look of them. You could likely use one to secure a log roll though. They might be a little too flexible, but I am sure the Flexi fans will know. They are legion!

And thank you! I love that style of shirt design, but they are pretty hard to find!

For a more symmetric clip, you might like the Ficcarismo more:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4006/4222219079_5ac4bdb495.jpg
Sorry for the rotten picture, I don't seem to have taken many of it! I love the hold of this one best of all, although I do wish it wasn't pale pink. They stopped making them for a while, but they are back now! The only catch is they only make small and medium now, but if you can fit a medium, you are in luck.

Oh my goodness Chromis, I revisited the log roll and love it! I still have the problem of having it not stand straight. How do I make mine look neater like yours? I wish mine were pink like yours instead of turquoise. :p still, this updo is amazing and I feel like I'm not even wearing a clip. Maybe I need to revisit my technique as I usually start like I'm doing a nautilus bun but instead would wrap around until my log is made. I seriously need more practice though.


http://i.imgur.com/eCsqrpYl.jpg

[Chromis]

Oh my goodness Chromis, I revisited the log roll and love it! I still have the problem of having it not stand straight. How do I make mine look neater like yours? I wish mine were pink like yours instead of turquoise. :p still, this updo is amazing and I feel like I'm not even wearing a clip. Maybe I need to revisit my technique as I usually start like I'm doing a nautilus bun but instead would wrap around until my log is made. I seriously need more practice though.


http://i.imgur.com/eCsqrpYl.jpg

If that was turquoise or brown or plain gold, I'd happily trade although mine is pretty dinged up which is why I have never tried swapping it again for another colour. I got it years ago and it is my only one. Oh, I wish I had known back then they would stop making the larges!

It looks like there is more than one method to do this, and they might make different results. I learned with a tutorial from Lady Godiva, but it appears the video is down. I also can no longer get to the archived articles where there used to be a step-by-step photo tutorial. That said, look pretty close to me and mine don't always come out perfect either :laugh: I have been doing them for many years as my cold weather style since they fit under a hat and it was my default office style too, so that is a lot of practice!

[rowie]

If that was turquoise or brown or plain gold, I'd happily trade although mine is pretty dinged up which is why I have never tried swapping it again for another colour. I got it years ago and it is my only one. Oh, I wish I had known back then they would stop making the larges!

It looks like there is more than one method to do this, and they might make different results. I learned with a tutorial from Lady Godiva, but it appears the video is down. I also can no longer get to the archived articles where there used to be a step-by-step photo tutorial. That said, look pretty close to me and mine don't always come out perfect either :laugh: I have been doing them for many years as my cold weather style since they fit under a hat and it was my default office style too, so that is a lot of practice!

Yes, the one I'm wearing in the pic is turquoise (it sometimes looks like a Robin's egg blue depending on the light) and I also have the chocolate from the autumn color. Only thing is that both are silver base and not gold. Maybe someday, if you ever prefer silver over gold. ;) thanks for looking for more tutorials.:flower: Seems like a lot of the log roll tutorials are disappearing. Ok well I feel better now that I know it will take lots of practice and experimenting before I can master this style. For now I'll keep practicing and wearing this style for my clips. :) off to work now have a nice day!:blossom:

[SparrowWings]

When one sees pictures of buns, one can usually easily tell which ones started with a ponytail, versus the simple no-pony buns because of that look of pulled-back edges with a pony.
So I'm really not trying to be disagreeable here, but I'm still not convinced of this point, at least in regards to my head. I always thought I did pretty tight ponytails, but now I'm wondering if there's more to it than that.

I know I've always made the elastic exceptionally tight, because that's the only way to keep it from shifting almost instantly (basically, it gives me enough time to also braid it to give it the rest of its shift-prevention). But I've never made any particular effort to pull the hair back tightly while making the pony; I just comb it smooth while hanging loose, then make the pony in my hand and hand-smooth from there and call it good. I haven't done the split in half and yank thing since elementary school, because all that ever did was make it bumpy again. But the elastic still did generally end up right against my head, so it's not like it was flopping around loosely or anything.

I've been doing buns for the past couple weeks (may as well give them a fair shot, so if I do them daily for a while, that ought to give me a decent amount of practice for a valid comparison), and I can't say I see or feel any difference in the hair around my scalp. Which is not to say buns are uncomfortable -- the braided ponytail rarely bothered me, and the buns don't either -- they just don't look/feel any different, tension-wise. And I'm not making the buns crazy-tight. If anything, I'm making them loose, since I'm not generally even grabbing scalp hair unless it's a cinnabun. Scalp hair with a center-held bun does hurt, it makes it so tight. Even going through the very base of the center is uncomfortable, so I've settled for having the stick or fork going almost completely level from one side to the other, through the center part near the top, barely any scalp-aimed "grabbing" at all. I can't say I'm consistent with the amount of twisting; some days have more than others, but they all end up feeling the same to my scalp (though the bun itself will feel different to my hand). Non-pony'd braided buns (center-held or cinnabun) actually don't seem to work as well; they wind up with weird tension spots from the braiding, usually only a small section of one of the strands, but it never settles itself out.

If there's supposed to be this great big huge difference, enough to make ponytails horrific even when only considering the scalp, why don't I notice one? Did I somehow manage to accidentally make tight-but-loose ponytails for all these years? Do some hair colors or types just not show the difference as clearly? What could explain it?

[meteor]

^ Yes, I think, with scalp, I would just trust the way the scalp feels, there are enough nerve endings there to use that as the main guideline. ;)
If a bun pulls uncomfortably, I'd change it to a comfy style, sure thing! :thumbsup: If that comfy style happens to be a soft pony, then yes, I think that's what I would do. I guess I just always felt that softly braided base was more comfortable at scalp area than a pony, but it's probably YMMV kind of thing. ;) If you like ponytails, I'd just recommend using metal-free and relatively soft ties (the ones that won't put a ton of tension just on that outside circumference area of the pony, just because some people notice mechanical damage over time on that canopy area where the pony is always secured) and maybe checking out some ties that work by wrapping around rather than pulling through (to help avoid excessive tangling for long hair that can happen on take-down), e.g. hair bungees (https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTLil7T4nOC7e5UzEKoQZFNFbM9zjVp7 I0XHImiKgxOseh21QZp) or hair baubles (http://www.larkstore.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/b/o/bobbleblack.jpg)?
Also, there are lots of great hair-friendly buns that start with a pony, e.g. Chinese bun or Chinese braided bun. As long as you are careful with making/taking down that pony base and as long as there is no pulling at the scalp, it's probably fine IMHO. :)

[Cg]

With my fine, thin hair ponytails simply do not stay. But even so I prefer buns because they never catch on chair backs, blow in my face, or tangle in the wind. Plus I get to use pretty hair toys!

[SparrowWings]

I don't have any particular attachment to or love of ponytails; it's just the quickest, most secure style I knew. And for someone who would rather be sleeping than spending time getting ready in the morning, quick is good! :run: If I can get them down to as much of a sleepy science, though, some of these buns are even quicker (and considerably less 8-year-old and let me play with pretty toys), so that's a bonus!


...some people notice mechanical damage over time on that canopy area where the pony is always secured...
A question about that is the other reason I've decided I may as well learn some of these buns. If, in a couple months, the almost invisibly thin outer layer of my grown out bangs that don't seem to ever want to be full length get longer, I'll blame it on the ponytails. If they don't, then I'll declare the edge of my forehead to be forever doomed to have these annoying ultra-long wispies. And even if it turns out that it has been a breakage issue, it's astoundingly minimal considering the number of years, so I'd say I found a good way to make/take down those ponytails, even with the elastic as tight as it can possibly stretch. In fact, I'd say I'm personally causing more breakage with the buns most days, what with still learning how to do them properly and getting strands tangled around my hands, than I was with the braided ponytail.

I'm just surprised how much pony vs bun don't feel/look different to me, given all the hate towards ponytails that I've always heard -- everywhere, for most of my life, not just here on LHC. I guess my scalp's just weird, like the rest of me. :wigtongue

[Entangled]

I don't have any particular attachment to or love of ponytails; it's just the quickest, most secure style I knew. And for someone who would rather be sleeping than spending time getting ready in the morning, quick is good! :run: If I can get them down to as much of a sleepy science, though, some of these buns are even quicker (and considerably less 8-year-old and let me play with pretty toys), so that's a bonus!


A question about that is the other reason I've decided I may as well learn some of these buns. If, in a couple months, the almost invisibly thin outer layer of my grown out bangs that don't seem to ever want to be full length get longer, I'll blame it on the ponytails. If they don't, then I'll declare the edge of my forehead to be forever doomed to have these annoying ultra-long wispies. And even if it turns out that it has been a breakage issue, it's astoundingly minimal considering the number of years, so I'd say I found a good way to make/take down those ponytails, even with the elastic as tight as it can possibly stretch. In fact, I'd say I'm personally causing more breakage with the buns most days, what with still learning how to do them properly and getting strands tangled around my hands, than I was with the braided ponytail.

I'm just surprised how much pony vs bun don't feel/look different to me, given all the hate towards ponytails that I've always heard -- everywhere, for most of my life, not just here on LHC. I guess my scalp's just weird, like the rest of me. :wigtongue

Well, you are specifically only considering the scalp tension, not any of the other aspects of the ponytail vs. bun. If we compare things on a level as similar as we can, I can discriminate between the styles. For me, a ponytail bun will always be tighter than a bun, no questions asked. It might loosen a small bit, but nowhere near as much as a non-ponytail bun. (Cinnabuns uncoil and are looser than a LWB, but I don't think of that so much a a tension difference as a construction difference.) Ponytails for me are more damaging: there's constant friction across one small point pulled tight as the hair specifically rubs in one tight spot. If I'm comparing a ponytailed bun to a ponytail, the bun is more secure and still less damaging, even if I'm not looking at length friction damage, because with a ponytail, the length swings around and thus causes significantly more friction around the elastic than a stable pony-bun would. In terms of tension, yes, a tightly pulled back LWB can feel as bad as a ponytail, but with a LWB I can fix that, and with a ponytail, it has to be tight to stay, just one lone elastic holding the weight of the hair up against gravity. A bun keeps the weight of the length attached to my scalp with better distribution because the weight is held up against the scalp vs. hanging free.

I don't think that's the most important part of bun vs ponytail (though if you're looking at truly scalp differences, I'd look at pony-based buns vs. non-pony buns); I think the length comes a lot into play. You could compare braid to pony if you're looking at how it's secured: I'd say that a braid is better; because even disregarding the tangle factor, the hair is kept together without a single tight friction point (the elastic on the end is not fighting against gravity anywhere near the ponytail's level) . You could also look at skinny elastics vs. wider or scrunchy elastics, and I think you'd come to the conclusion that wider things can have a more distributed pressure and thus less of a breaking friction wedge.

Overall, I prefer buns, because ponytails ache and give me headaches. I attribute it to tighter tension (my ponytail-based high cinnabuns are tighter and more secure than non-pony cinnabuns, no matter how tight I try to make the twist only bun base) that doesn't have the option to get loose. My twist-only-based buns loosen to a comfortable level, whereas ponytail base ones don't. An actual ponytail is awful, because it constantly drags at the elastic and swings around. All other things equal, my head hurts far less when it supports the weight of the hair via the hair resting on it from a bun than when the hair's weight is held only by an elastic.

Loosest to tightest/most comfortable to most uncomfortable
Cinnabun-->ponytailed cinnabun-->ponytail

In terms of comfort
Braid-->bun-->pony-based bun-->ponytail
(The braid doesn't defy gravity at all, just keeps the hair together, so has the least scalp tension for me)

With buns, the less they swing, the less they hurt. I like buns to be tight enough to not tug on one area over another as is the risk with loose buns, but not overly tight overall if that makes sense. (Ponytails often make my buns feel too tight. I've started replacing them with the first few crosses of a braid if I'm doing a bun that calls for one.)

And in terms of damage, I think my pillow is more damaging than any elastic ever was. I've gotta fix that! But it doesn't hurt my scalp like a ponytail does, so it ends up low on my priority list.