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nakima
March 28th, 2016, 02:04 PM
Hi All, It seems I haven't been able to get past TBL, well I get a past it but keep having to trim back. I think its because of the years I colored my hair so that being said I just trimmed back again on the spring equinox and I did a lot of s&ding as well I think my hair looks pretty good right now other than the ends being a little thin. so I am once again on my journey to classic. I was hoping to get there by Christmas not sure if I'll make it but I AM NOT GIVING UP!!!! so I added a picture to my profile and am using it as my siggy so any info. and support you can offer me to keep these ends healthy and help me reach my goal would be very much appreciated. right now I am not coloring and have not for a little over 14 months so you can see it is growing :) I am having a little bit of a hard time with the white hair but am trying work past that because the new virgin hair is so healthy. So anyway looking forward to some advice. Thanks all!

MeAndTheMaz
March 28th, 2016, 02:08 PM
Well, 14 months equals about 7 inches of virgin growth. Like it or not, you're going to be fighting any damage you have for quite some time. But you'll get there eventually. Happy growing!

ETA: One method for trimming and growing at the same time is to trim half your growth monthly or every other month. Sort of the best of both worlds.

nakima
March 28th, 2016, 02:25 PM
Well, 14 months equals about 7 inches of virgin growth. Like it or not, you're going to be fighting any damage you have for quite some time. But you'll get there eventually. Happy growing!

ETA: One method for trimming and growing at the same time is to trim half your growth monthly or every other month. Sort of the best of both worlds.

Thank you for your reply, Your right I have gained 14 inches of new growth I just keep losing it off the ends. It's just so frustrating at times lol!

lapushka
March 28th, 2016, 03:37 PM
Like you said, you are always trimming back; I mean, no wonder it's not getting any progress. I'd leave it alone for a while, at least for a few months, and see how far you get. You could always stop trimming for a longer while yet. Or, as the previous poster suggested try and microtrim.

nakima
March 28th, 2016, 05:21 PM
I left it alone for 3 months and I got an inch or so growth but it was full of splits and white dots so I had no choice but to trim because it kept breaking. So I am going to try for 6 months this time and see how far I get. I cleaned it up really good this time so I think I will see some changes and I will do as you suggested and leave it alone now and if it starts looking bad I will try the micro trimming. Thanks Lapushka :)

luxurioushair
March 28th, 2016, 05:35 PM
Your hair's really healthy-looking

meteor
March 28th, 2016, 08:08 PM
Your hair's really healthy-looking

Definitely! :D


I left it alone for 3 months and I got an inch or so growth but it was full of splits and white dots so I had no choice but to trim because it kept breaking. So I am going to try for 6 months this time and see how far I get. I cleaned it up really good this time so I think I will see some changes and I will do as you suggested and leave it alone now and if it starts looking bad I will try the micro trimming. Thanks Lapushka :)

Do you put you hair up? How do you protect your length at night? After TBL, it may be necessary to go to extra measures to protect the ends, e.g.:

- low-manipulation updos;

- sleeping with silk/satin pillowcases/bonnets, braiding/bunning/coiling length at night;

- covering hair with hats/scarves/buffs when it's sunny or windy outside;

- not over-washing, not over-brushing, not over-grooming hair (I'd recommend avoiding very brushes with dense bristles and checking all hair tools for snaggy areas with nylon pantyhose, for example);

- oiling ends regularly to help prevent split ends (e.g. with mineral oil, but plant oils work beautifully for this too; this study covers this topic: http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2009/cc060n02/p00273-p00280.pdf);

- possibly adding hair masks/treatments like pre-poo oiling or oil rinses or periodic protein treatments into your routine - it's very YMMV but may be worth experimenting with, if it seems that the hair is having trouble retaining added length without any additional support... :hmm:

nakima
March 29th, 2016, 01:38 AM
Thank you! I am really trying to do this right this time :)

nakima
March 29th, 2016, 01:47 AM
Thank you Meteor, I wear my hair in a braid most of the time and I do put it up in a bun at night and I also sleep on a satin pillow case. I wash every 2 to 3 days. It has been a while since I have oiled the ends so maybe I will try that again and I will check my combs for snaggy areas. I have also thought about trying cwc and see how that works for me as well. I have never tried that.You have given me lots to think about. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out. I am going to go check out the site on oiling now ha! I appreciate the info.

meteor
March 29th, 2016, 11:52 AM
^ Thanks a lot, nakima! :D I hope some of these ideas can work out for you.
Yes, whenever there are any split ends complaints, any white dots, breakage, it usually means one needs to be even more careful and protective with the ends for better length retention.

If your hair is mostly worn in a braid, I'd recommend keeping the braid over the shoulder and being really mindful of what touches it: so maybe wearing silky smooth tops, being careful around any snaggy materials... Also, when you don't need your braid down, how about bunning it with a stick/fork/etc? I think a braided LWB or braided cinnabun, etc are super-protective and they can even keep that braid pretty smooth for days (unlike when it's down and frizzes up from contact with things).

And yes, I think CWC is worth a try, and so is WCC and pre-poo oiling with a penetrating oil, like coconut, for example (as it reduces protein loss - i.e. reduces damage - that happens during shampooing and grooming: http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2003/cc054n02/p00175-p00192.pdf), as well as oil rinses, using oils for "sealing" ends (alone or with LOC) or diluting shampoo with water...

Also, your hair is long enough that you could check out scalp-only washes in between full washes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwREj8Kadlo (with a braid held down by bra-strap, over bathtub or sink), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VBOVM-dHlc (partial scalp only wash, with hair bunned and covered with a plastic cap), or just holding a braid above your head...
They are super-helpful for reducing extra wear & tear from washing and manipulating length, when only the roots are oily. Definitely be careful with detangling and all sorts of brushing (I find it's safer to avoid brushes altogether, but it's pretty YMMV). The less you mess with the ends and the more you protect them, the higher the chances of preserving them in great condition at longer and longer milestones, IMHO. :flower: Just give it time and don't over-trim it!

Your hair is absolutely stunning! :applause I have no doubt you'll break the "TBL4ever" spell soon! :D
Happy growing, nakima! :cheer:

spidermom
March 29th, 2016, 11:55 AM
Same here!

Around tailbone my hair starts deconstructing at the ends = so many splits! One time a few years ago I ignored it and grew all the way to classic length. My ends were so bad that I had 7 or 8 inches cut off after about 4 months. I don't dye or bleach or flat iron and already wear it up and condition it well so I'm kind of at a loss. I'm on a pattern of grow to tailbone, cut back to hip. :justy:

nakima
March 29th, 2016, 01:04 PM
I feel ya spider mom! I really feel that after this last good little trim and all the s&ding I did things are going to turn around. These ladies sure have given some good advice here so lets see how far we can get. I haven't colored my hair for 14 months so I know a lot of my damage is probably coming from old damage and so as meteor suggested I am going to do everything possible to protect the ends. I do scalp wash most of the time now and that has helped some but we will see what the next 6 months bring. Hang in there we'll get there. It took me awhile to get from hip to TBL also so we're on this journey together :) anyone else have this same problem? or better yet "had it" then corrected it? please share!

nakima
March 29th, 2016, 01:25 PM
meteor, I checked out the site for scalp washing and that was so different from I have been doing. I just shower as usual and just wash my scalp with full strength shampoo and let it run down the length of my hair. I am going to try this other method I really liked the idea of my length not being wet every time I wash and it just seems it would be healthier. That girl in the first video has such beautiful thick hair! my dream hair ha! So once again thank you!:hifive

lapushka
March 29th, 2016, 02:05 PM
It is somehow odd to me how white dots get in perfectly virgin hair, because those come from basically "boiling" the hair, right? Exposing it to high temps. - this puzzles me a lot. I was just asking myself... how?

meteor
March 29th, 2016, 02:52 PM
meteor, I checked out the site for scalp washing and that was so different from I have been doing. I just shower as usual and just wash my scalp with full strength shampoo and let it run down the length of my hair. I am going to try this other method I really liked the idea of my length not being wet every time I wash and it just seems it would be healthier. That girl in the first video has such beautiful thick hair! my dream hair ha! So once again thank you!:hifive

Awesome! :D Thanks a lot, nakima! :flowers: I really hope it will work for you! Scalp-only washes do require a bit of fiddling to get the technique right just for you and to do it most comfortably - kind of depends on everything: from the length/weight of the braid (to keep it down by the bra-strap), to distance to shower bar, to comfort level of holding hair above head with one hand... It's worth experimenting with though, as it seriously saves the length and the time! ;)
And yes, Haartraum's hair is phenomenal, and her video tutorials super-helpful! :crush:



It is somehow odd to me how white dots get in perfectly virgin hair, because those come from basically "boiling" the hair, right? Exposing it to high temps. - this puzzles me a lot. I was just asking myself... how?

Nakima mentioned chemical damage from past dyeing. :) I think it's pretty typical to get white dots from hot curling/flat-ironing, but it's not the only way it can happen, as it's just a form of damage. :) I have no personal experience with direct heat damage (though I know it often shows with "white dots"), but I did get "white dots" back when I had my hair bleached and aggressively brushed, too.

However, I'd be careful with making absolutely sure you don't S&D white dots that are just specks of white lint/skin/dust/etc stuck to hair. They can look surprisingly similar, so only work on them in great light against background in contrasting color. :flower:

Also, you mentioned frequent trimming... how soon after a trim does your hair start developing splits? :hmm: If it's pretty soon, then are your scissors very sharp and do you only use them on hair and nothing else? The thing is, dull scissors can leave a rough edge behind, which can be the spot where new splitting/unravelling of the hair fiber at the edge can begin... Just something to be aware of... :flower:

nakima
March 29th, 2016, 04:02 PM
I don't hot iron or use any type of heat source on my hair and I think the white dots are weak hair getting ready to split. I guess that could happen to older virgin hair that's showing damage due to years of brushing,heat etc? I pull on the hairs with white dots and if they hold I leave them alone if they break off then there is usually a small split so I trim it.One thing I do that is not good is I tend to over brush when struggling with the damage so that is another thing I will stop doing. I am wearing my hair up a lot more these days and that has helped with that problem as well. I did my first cwc today and I'm still waiting for my hair to dry completely but already it feels soooo good :) I really would like to learn how to do better up do's my hair is fine and tends to slip out of everything I try. Any suggestions? Thank you all so much for your input this is so much fun and I cant wait to reap the benefits :happydance::grouphug:

nakima
March 29th, 2016, 04:09 PM
Awesome! :D Thanks a lot, nakima! :flowers: I really hope it will work for you! Scalp-only washes do require a bit of fiddling to get the technique right just for you and to do it most comfortably - kind of depends on everything: from the length/weight of the braid (to keep it down by the bra-strap), to distance to shower bar, to comfort level of holding hair above head with one hand... It's worth experimenting with though, as it seriously saves the length and the time! ;)
And yes, Haartraum's hair is phenomenal, and her video tutorials super-helpful! :crush:




Nakima mentioned chemical damage from past dyeing. :) I think it's pretty typical to get white dots from hot curling/flat-ironing, but it's not the only way it can happen, as it's just a form of damage. :) I have no personal experience with direct heat damage (though I know it often shows with "white dots"), but I did get "white dots" back when I had my hair bleached and aggressively brushed, too.

However, I'd be careful with making absolutely sure you don't S&D white dots that are just specks of white lint/skin/dust/etc stuck to hair. They can look surprisingly similar, so only work on them in great light against background in contrasting color. :flower:

Also, you mentioned frequent trimming... how soon after a trim does your hair start developing splits? :hmm: If it's pretty soon, then are your scissors very sharp and do you only use them on hair and nothing else? The thing is, dull scissors can leave a rough edge behind, which can be the spot where new splitting/unravelling of the hair fiber at the edge can begin... Just something to be aware of... :flower:
I will check my scissors as well, I don't use them for anything but my hair but maybe they weren't very good to start with. I have had them a while hmmm could be the culprit. Do any of you use a certain name brand of scissors that seem to work better than others?

lapushka
March 29th, 2016, 04:22 PM
Nakima mentioned chemical damage from past dyeing. :) I think it's pretty typical to get white dots from hot curling/flat-ironing, but it's not the only way it can happen, as it's just a form of damage. :) I have no personal experience with direct heat damage (though I know it often shows with "white dots"), but I did get "white dots" back when I had my hair bleached and aggressively brushed, too.

Yes, I had it from a perm as well. Perm/heat. Bad combination! I am wondering though about those that seem to get it on virgin hair, which is odd to me, and might be a sign of not recognizing "real" damage, "real" white dots well, and just snipping good hair off instead.

nakima
March 29th, 2016, 05:27 PM
I guess that could happen. I know when my hair was all natural I had splits and some white dots but I think I was damaging my hair without realizing it. This was before LHC Now that I have this under control and my tool box is full I can't wait to see how well my hair does from here on out. It would be nice to hear from those who have all virgin hair to share their experience about the white dots...

meteor
March 29th, 2016, 05:57 PM
I don't hot iron or use any type of heat source on my hair and I think the white dots are weak hair getting ready to split. I guess that could happen to older virgin hair that's showing damage due to years of brushing,heat etc? I pull on the hairs with white dots and if they hold I leave them alone if they break off then there is usually a small split so I trim it.One thing I do that is not good is I tend to over brush when struggling with the damage so that is another thing I will stop doing.

This is pretty important! :) Just to give you a small personal example: I used to get split ends when I brushed my hair very roughly. When I came to the LHC and trimmed my ends and *stopped all brushing* (only a wide-tooth comb or fingers for detangling), I simply stopped getting any split ends at all, even though my ends are still highlighted and old and I went years without a trim. So I do think that the tools one uses are extremely important.

I think that what might be happening with chemical & mechanical damage is this:
- Chemical treatments (e.g. bleach/peroxide dyes) weaken the structure of the hair, break its disulfide bonds and lower its tensile strength.
- So *after* the chemical treatment(s), the hair is simply weakened, but it's not yet necessarily split or broken, just compromised in structure...
- It takes some rough treatment (e.g. mechanical damage through rough brushing with tools with dense bristles with seams, etc) to actually start developing visible split ends in that hair... but since that chemically treated hair is already weakened, it just takes less effort and less repeated manipulation to get to the stage of splitting.

And if the hair is already naturally a bit weak (e.g. ultra-fine naturally), then it takes even less effort to get to that step.

By the way, I think it's interesting to see what scientists use in order to generate split ends in artificial conditions for their research (so that we remember what not to do! ;)):

"The bleached hair tresses were submitted to cycles of combing and drying (1 h) using combing equipment that was developed by Natura especially for this experiment and
that simulates the daily care combing. The equipment was automatically operated and has an accessory with four fixed combs that moves in a circle with speed 40 times/min,
permitting a combing of the tresses (18 cm and 5 g) that were fi xed in front of the equipment. During the experiments, a hair dryer (1800W) was put 5 cm distant from the tresses at 70C. After the time, the formation of split ends was quantified by visual counting (number of split ends per gram of hair)." (Source: http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2009/cc060n02/p00273-p00280.pdf)

Or:
"Production of split ends on hair tresses with a thermal-mechanical apparatus. The hair obtained from International Hair Importers is essentially received undamaged. In order to start the experimentation, hair needs to be damaged to create split ends for repair. This is accomplished with a thermal/mechanical styling apparatus. This apparatus consists of two vent brushes that are attached to a cylindrical mixing blade. This is made to rotate with a mixer situated in a horizontal instead of its' normal vertical position. The mixer is adjusted so that it is made to rotate at 75 rpm against a hair tress. This treatment equates to approximately 9,000 brush strokes an hour. Simultaneously, the hair is subjected to the hot air of a blow dryer which is situated to keep the hair against the brushes during rotation. This treatment simulates what a consumer does during the styling process." (Source: http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2007/cc058n04/p00451-p00476.pdf)



I am wearing my hair up a lot more these days and that has helped with that problem as well. I did my first cwc today and I'm still waiting for my hair to dry completely but already it feels soooo good :) I really would like to learn how to do better up do's my hair is fine and tends to slip out of everything I try. Any suggestions? Thank you all so much for your input this is so much fun and I cant wait to reap the benefits :happydance::grouphug:

Awesome! I think the fact that you are wearing your hair up more will most definitely help! :thumbsup:

About bunning ideas for really slippery hair, since you already mostly wear braids anyway, how about bunning the braid? ;) Braided buns hold much better and tighter than their un-braided cousins. ;)

- Braided LWB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DKLqSQWZos

- French Pinless Bun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrlkGLzboHE

- Braided Nautilus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jHNTQs_lg4

- Rosebun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H96nag0gtU0

- Braided L-Infinity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fzn4gNWIVQ (just start with a braid)

- Braided Disc Bun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y5sSEBy7HQ (just start with 2 braids)

- Oval Bun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkT7Hok3IHA

- Braided Chinese Bun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n98D0j8Ypfg

- Braided Spidermom's / Double-Loop Bun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCvC_MU0To8 (just start with a braid)

spidermom
March 29th, 2016, 06:32 PM
Lapushka, when I see a white dot, first I run my fingers over it to see if it's lint. If it isn't, I generally either bend it at that spot, which often reveals what looks like a frayed spot, or put my fingers on either side of it and pull in opposite directions. Usually it pops apart easily right there and leaves a split. I only blow-dry on warm, never hot, and I don't flat iron. I think that the white dot indicates a place where my hair is going to break off, leaving a split end. I'm as careful with my hair as I can stand to be, but I can only conclude that I get white dots/breakage because of mechanical damage. I can't seem to avoid it.

teal
March 29th, 2016, 06:52 PM
Aside from all the good advice that's already been mentioned, you may want to try the "wear your hair up for a week/month/year" challenge. The damage you already have may not let you grow it longer than tailbone without additional protection. My hair, which has heat damage for the last 12-18" or so, spends the majority of its time in updos. Braids on their own (ie. not as part of an updo) are a once-in-a-while thing. Braids rub against fabrics all day long, and that will encourage an already-damaged hair to split. Heck, it might even encourage an otherwise healthy hair to split over repeated exposure, eventually... fabrics are a lot more durable than hair!

SummerCherie
March 30th, 2016, 01:24 AM
Try drying your hair with a tshirt rather then a towel. This makes a huge difference.

Anje
March 30th, 2016, 01:41 PM
Yeah, I kept trimming back for ages because my ends were too thin. Not particularly splitty or anything, just thin. I finally decided maybe a year ago to just ignore that and let them grow, and I honestly think that my hair is thicker at that tailbone point now than it was when I kept trimming it back. It's completely fairytaled down a little past classic, but it's apparently still growing. Keeping my hair up or at least braided helps, but the biggest thing for me has been just accepting that my hair is going to have fairytale ends if I want it longer than hip. I'd love to have blunt ends, but it's not in the cards.

spidermom
March 30th, 2016, 01:43 PM
Braided and pinned up is my go-to style.

nakima
March 30th, 2016, 01:45 PM
Oh meteor you are awesome! Thank you so much for the videos,I watched the first one and she has such thick beautimus hair lol! and she made that look so easy I will try it and then come and watch the rest of these videos as well as all the other information you have provided. This has all been so helpful.

lapushka
March 30th, 2016, 01:48 PM
Lapushka, when I see a white dot, first I run my fingers over it to see if it's lint. If it isn't, I generally either bend it at that spot, which often reveals what looks like a frayed spot, or put my fingers on either side of it and pull in opposite directions. Usually it pops apart easily right there and leaves a split. I only blow-dry on warm, never hot, and I don't flat iron. I think that the white dot indicates a place where my hair is going to break off, leaving a split end. I'm as careful with my hair as I can stand to be, but I can only conclude that I get white dots/breakage because of mechanical damage. I can't seem to avoid it.

Never knew it could be caused by mechanical damage. My white dots always folded neatly in half when manipulated, which is why I knew it was breakage.

nakima
March 30th, 2016, 01:53 PM
Aside from all the good advice that's already been mentioned, you may want to try the "wear your hair up for a week/month/year" challenge. The damage you already have may not let you grow it longer than tailbone without additional protection. My hair, which has heat damage for the last 12-18" or so, spends the majority of its time in updos. Braids on their own (ie. not as part of an updo) are a once-in-a-while thing. Braids rub against fabrics all day long, and that will encourage an already-damaged hair to split. Heck, it might even encourage an otherwise healthy hair to split over repeated exposure, eventually... fabrics are a lot more durable than hair!

Teal, This is also a very good idea, although I wear my hair up most of the time I do like to wear it down when going out and about shopping etc. and I do wear a side braid more than anything and I do have to take it out and redo it several times a day due to frizziness from rubbing etc. so I will focus on keeping it up for awhile as well. Thank you!

nakima
March 30th, 2016, 02:00 PM
Yeah, I kept trimming back for ages because my ends were too thin. Not particularly splitty or anything, just thin. I finally decided maybe a year ago to just ignore that and let them grow, and I honestly think that my hair is thicker at that tailbone point now than it was when I kept trimming it back. It's completely fairytaled down a little past classic, but it's apparently still growing. Keeping my hair up or at least braided helps, but the biggest thing for me has been just accepting that my hair is going to have fairytale ends if I want it longer than hip. I'd love to have blunt ends, but it's not in the cards.

Anje,That is exactly what I have been doing so now I am on my way to just leaving it alone and focus on protecting more than trying to get the ends to thicken up. So what you have shared is good news to me. I can't wait to see what happens within the next 6 months or so. I noticed that my hair did get abt an inch and half past TBL this time but it wasnt healthy so I trimmed back a little and then S&D when I got done with that they were thin again so another micro trim and back to TBL. I'm leaving it alone this time and what you have shared helps me to know that all will be good! Thank you for sharing!

XiaoBaiTu
March 30th, 2016, 02:07 PM
I have been at TBL forever too! About once a year my mom trims it back to my hip, thinking that the fairytale ends are unhealthy. Though, admittedly, I did have some breakage from improper brushing, even though I have all virgin hair. As in, I've never so much as blow dried it. However, since I've started being more gentle with my hair about a year or so ago, the split ends have mostly disappeared.

nakima
March 30th, 2016, 09:10 PM
Welcome xiaobaitu! seems there is a lot of us dealing with this lol! I am ready to turn it around no matter what it takes ha! That's awesome that you have never done anything drastic to your hair it must be just beautiful... so your splits are about gone? Mine looks good for now and I think with all this great advice and new things to try I feel all will be good from here on out. Keeping fingers crossed :)

XiaoBaiTu
March 31st, 2016, 03:37 PM
Yes, happily the split ends have mostly disappeared, and those that are left are small and at the very edges. I'm afraid to S&D though because I know my scissors aren't very sharp, but with my hair seeming pretty healthy now I too hope to make it past TBL!